Here's the wiki of a tech tree: http://rhye.civfanatics.net/wiki/index.php?title=Tech_Tree. The fourth message in this thread has a simpler list of updates to the tech tree.





ORIGINAL MESSAGE: So what are the general plans for tech tree improvements? Are we sticking with roughly the Civ4/RFC ancient, classical, and early medieval techs? Adding a bunch of new ones? Significant revamp?

I think that the tree will need to be expanded, but not for the sake of it.
Every tech should offer something. Wonders, units above all. I believe we should think of what units and wonders we want to add, and later placing them where we want. For instance: we might add quadrireme: where?
However, post here your ideas, or even your own trees. Feel free to open a units thread too.

Here's a list of the RFC techs through the eras this should be covering:

Fishing
Hunting
The Wheel
Agriculture
Mysticism
Mining

Sailing
Pottery
Animal Husbandry
Archery
Meditation
Polytheism
Masonry

Horseback Riding
Priesthood
Monotheism
Bronze Working

Writing
Metal Casting
Iron Working

Aesthetics
Mathematics
Alphabet
Monarchy
Compass

Literature
Calendar
Construction
Currency
Machinery



that's 30, and takes us to the point of the medieval spawns, roughly turn 180 in RFC. The Greek World mod is scheduled to go almost double that, so with that as a guideline, we may want twice as many techs (although somewhat more or somewhat less wouldn't be a problem, as the tech rate can be altered.)

This message is for the potential tree to use. Legend: italics mean that this is a new tech. underline means that this is a changed or simply renamed tech. greyed out means that a tech has been deleted. * means that a tech is currently an end-point and doesn't allow further techs (and isn't in the final tier).



Fishing
Hunting
The Wheel
Agriculture
Mysticism
Mining

Sailing
Pottery
Animal Husbandry
Archery
Mythology
Polytheism
Masonry
Trade
Logging
Herbalism

Horseback Riding
Priesthood
Monotheism
Bronze Working
Storytelling
Code of Laws
Amphora*

Writing
Metal Casing
Iron Working
Philosophy
Citizenship
Military Science
Tyranny

Aesthetics
Mathematics
Alphabet
Democracy
Compass
Aristocracy
Naval Warfare*
Medicine*
Education*

Standing Army
Republicanism
Literature
Calendar
Construction
Currency
Machinery
Music
Drama


Currently 45

Here are six techs which occur after the ancient, classical, or early medieval era in RFC, but also had impact in the era of the Greek World mod:

Music
Democracy
Philosophy
Drama
Code of Laws
Education

And Medicine and Military Science too. I disagree with Meditation. I have renamed it Mythology.
We need more naval techs.

Maybe something like the use of sea currents, something about ships that can transport goods better, something about minor colonies, and maybe something like Fishing Fleets.
I think CIV currently really neglects in the ancient and classical era the importance of the sea outside of war, especially in Trading and colonizing in the classical era which was a huge aspect of the sea (a civ like Phoenicia for example relied heavily on those things).

I also think that Machinery isn't a good fit for this mod, where the other early medieval techs are. I'm putting Democracy on the same level as Monarchy, which for the purposes of the mod, I'm renaming Tyranny (although Monarchy could exist as well, but would need some Civic thinking to differentiate it from Tyranny.)

If we are to make an accurate tech tree, let it at least reflect the technological progress of antiquity. For example, Greek theater evolved from a religious festival, so Drama should descend from a religious tech.

more thoughts:

Along with Tyranny and Democracy, the third major government type in Greece was the Oligarchy. Combine that with Republicanism and Imperium and we have six governmental civics. Huzzah! I think Imperium should go with a tech that I'm calling Standing Army. Standing Army represents the Marian Reforms of the Roman military, and would also allow for an advanced swordsman unit. (this also means it's time for a Civics thread)

Until we can think of a name for the tech that gives us Quinquiremes, I'm adding it as Naval Warfare.

Another good technology would be Storytelling. This leads to the Heroic Epic national wonder. Gilgamesh, the Iliad, you're in!

Finally, if we have an advanced infantry unit, we also need an advanced cavalry unit. For now, I believe that this should be a heavy cavalry recruitable with an Aristocracy tech.



EDIT: Not sure why I thought there were six civics. Going to have to decide on narrowing one of these down. Probably going to be Oligarchy

Nano, that's probably good, though I'm kind of avoiding the religious techs for the moment, as they're attached to the religions thread.

MORE CHANGES:

I'm also suggesting a tech called Trade to help bridge the monetary gap until Currency, which is now an end-game tech.

Code of Laws and Philosophy need to be much earlier up the tree. So here goes:

The Wheel leads to Trade. Trade leads to Code of Laws and eventually Currency. Code of Laws requires Trade and Pottery. It leads to Philosophy and Democracy and Tyranny. Philosophy also requires Mysticism, and leads to Aesthetics. Aesthetics is now a jumping-off point for Literature (with Polytheism), Music (with Mathematics), and Drama (with Storytelling).


I'm adding Theology not as a tech I want to have with that name, but as a placeholder for the tech that founds Xtianity. I also think it should require Alphabet instead of Writing, so as to avoid Oracle-based Xtianity-bombs.

I've also added Requirements and Leads to on all the techs in the wiki, which now functions as kind of a visual tech tree. Better than this one: http://rhye.civfanatics.net/wiki/index.php?title=Tech_Tree

Can we change Mysticism back to Ceremonial Burial? Or re-add CB?


EDIT:

Hoo lawd! This is kind of fun. Like a puzzle. I tried to connect all the techs we've put into the mod with effects. This meant: Naval Warfare requires Compass. Standing Army requires Iron Working and Democracy or Tyranny.

This led me to something of a dilemma with Aristocracy and Republicanism. I solved this with Citizenship which should also lead to a civic, probably Legal. Alone it leads to Republicanism, and with Horseback Riding it can get Aristocracy.

The only tech in the wiki right now without a full set of pre-reqs is Advanced Archery, but I'm okay with that.

I've added some changes.

Are we sure we want to keep Compass? Was there any compass at that time? What about a replacement with a oar-related tech?

cursory research says yes, Compass bad. It existed in China but not Europe or the Middle East until much later.

Some more changes:

a Ram unit was suggested as a pre-catapult siege weapon. Where to put it? I added a Logging tech, which requires Hunting and Mining. It's also a pre-req for Mathematics, and when trees can be chopped (duh)

Added Herbalism with a pre-req of Agriculture or Hunting. Herbalism, with Philosophy, now leads to Medicine.

Eliminated Compass. Now, Naval Warfare requires Military Science and Sailing.

Military Science now allows for the so-called advanced archer unit, the Peltast (javelineers). With Metal Casing, it also can create the advanced spearman unit, the Hoplite.

Some ideas of new technologies, units, wonders and buildings might be gotten from the Rise of Mankind mod, which features 3-4 times more of everything compared to vanilla civ.

I have now added descriptions of what each does in allowing buildings, units, etc, to the wiki, with links to those units/buildings/etc, although the text in those boxes is non-existent. I generally ignored "Founding Religion," though.

Several wonders are going to need to be re-examined, of course. This just helped to demonstrate that.

Some suggested changes:

Literature to require storytelling
Drama to require only Aesthetics, not Storytelling (or it's the same as Literature)
Astronomy to require only Calendar (which already includes math and sailing)
Democracy not to require Code of Laws, which is already needed for Citizenship
New tech: cartography or map making; requires sailing, leads to... Astronomy?; extends the naval line.


We need more early Medieval tech or something, because right now even the last techs in our tree were known by the 5th century BC (currency, democracy, calendar, astronomy, education, drama, medicine...).

Maybe a black-figure and red-figure pottery tech after pottery?

I guess it would unlock a potter building that has +1 :culture: and +25% :gold:


My vote is that the globe theatre ( no :mad: in a city) is replaced by the Theater of Asklepios at Epidauros


National epic replaced with Epicurean school?



Also, me thinks more philosophy related techs should be added

Most of the early medieval techs in Civ4/RFC were after the scope of this mod, as I recall. That may be tougher.

The problem is that unlike RFC or RFC:E, the mod ends in a time where there was not much advancement... We really need a solution; I don't want to see Athens researching Philosophy in 450 AD. On the other hand, civs like the Celts are likely to be way less advanced even by the end of the mod.

An idea for an Athenian UHV: be the first to complete the tech tree?

The problem is that unlike RFC or RFC:E, the mod ends in a time where there was not much advancement... We really need a solution; I don't want to see Athens researching Philosophy in 450 AD. On the other hand, civs like the Celts are likely to be way less advanced even by the end of the mod.

An idea for an Athenian UHV: be the first to complete the tech tree?

I'd say we should probably leave the next generation of techs in the game for now.

Have you been able to do much on this? I'd like to work on it this weekend if possible.

My personal belief is that while we can think about UHVs, I'd prefer to have a working historical sim/game before putting those together. Then again, I'm known for being not terribly interested in UHVs.

I totally agree with that, the main reason why I don't like historical scenarios is that they don't have a time-related tech tree. I think we should focus on that and some appropriate units (which shouldn't be that hard, at least not those after 1000 BC), which would make the game playable, but not RFC-ish. That would be the next thing to do.

I'm going to try to post the new techinfos XML later tonight.

What do you think of my earlier suggestion of adding Map Making/Carthography, just like in civ II and III?

And also:
Literature to require storytelling
Drama to require only Aesthetics, not Storytelling (or it would be the same as Literature)
Astronomy to require only Calendar (which already includes math and sailing)
Democracy not to require Code of Laws, which is already needed for Citizenship

I missed the map making/cartography, how would that work?

My idea was to have Music, Drama, and Literature all be Aesthetics + something different. Is it not like that?

The others seem fine.

Cartography was in Civ II/III as a naval tech, so it would extend the naval line. It could be a requirement for one of the ships and perhaps the Great Lighthouse (although this one needs to be relatively late, so perhaps Naval Warfare would be better instead). And obviously it would enable map trading, since there's no paper tech now.

Requirements: Writing and Sailing
Leads to: Astronomy, and maybe Naval Warfare

As for the art line, the requirements are Aesthetics plus what follows:
Literature: polytheism
Drama: storytelling
Music: math

But I think it makes more sense if storytelling leads to literature. And then make polytheism a requirement for Drama, I think that's more logical and more historical (I'm not sure at all here).

EDIT: I believe Machinery and Engineering have to be there too, though they wouldn't be exactly the same as in RFC.

The new CIV4TechInfos file is now available!

It has all the techs, prerequisites and coordinates in the tech tree. Nothing else was changed (eras, research cost, etc.)

But, I can't check whether the game is playable with it, because of course I deleted all the techs that weren't needed anymore without thinking! :rolleyes: So when I tried to load the game I got dozens of messages saying: TECH_ASSEMBLY_LINE was not found for CIV4BuildingInfos, TECH_DIVINE_RIGHT was not found for CIV4ReligionInfos, etc. Thus all the files that refer to TechInfos will have to be altered... (Mostly deleting buildings, units, civics, etc.)

For now one could try to merge the original file and the new one... But who knows what will happen then :crazyeye:

All right, I'll try to fiddle with it and see if it can be made to work.

All right, here's what appears to be a working collection of tech tree files. I think these are all the xml that I had to change. If it's not, find the XML file with the error message, and do a find and replace for MONARCHY to TYRANNY.

I've also updated the tech costs to rough guesses or parallel costs. Herbalism should cost as much as Animal Husbandry, for example.

The tech tree is a total mess. If anyone wants to fiddle with it, it would be greatly appreciated. The way to change the placement of techs is in the <iGridx> and <iGridy> values. It should be pretty easy to figure out. If you'd like an image to help you along, the wiki kind of has it. http://rhye.civfanatics.net/wiki/index.php?title=Tech_Tree

Huh, where is it? I'd like to see what you've done and try to reorganize it.

I guess it didn't upload or I forgot a step.

Here's another tech that should definitely be in: Amphora. Requires Pottery and Trade, perhaps? Allows building of Winery and, in my opinion, Olive Press with a new resource. Olives are big in the Mediterranean!

I approve! Perhaps Pottery and Herbalism?

EDIT: I tried your file but I can't make it work... I get messages about something with religions and corporations in the UnitInfos file, but this file isn't even in the Greek World/Assets/XML fodder. (Plus something in BonusInfos about TERRAIN_MARSH.) I'm not sure what to do...

EDIT AGAIN: Ok I managed something and was able to take a look at the tech tree. I'm currently trying to put some order in there, which is difficult. (First thing I did was to get rid of all the unwanted techs by sending them far to the right end of the tree.)

Sending them all to the right is the best we can do at the moment. And figuring out how to change the pre-reqs so the arrows don't mess things up.

For AMPHORA, I'd say Pottery and Sailing OR Herbalism.

Still working on the tech tree, I encountered a problem. There are two cases where two techs have the same requirements, which are Tech A or Tech B. The problem is, "OR" requirements mean arrows, and having Agriculture or Hunting lead to both Herbalism and Animal Husbandry inevitably leads to a weird arrow mix. The same thing happens with Polytheism or Mythology towards Storytelling and Priesthood.

I suggest removing the Hunting possibility for Herbalism as I don't see any link. So Agriculture would be compulsory to get Herbs. Should we use a similar solution for Poly/Mytho?

Aside from this, is the Amphora tech supposed to lead anywhere?

PS I'm going to release my new version today, just wait a little longer.

I guess ORs don't add that much. They're kind of cool in theory, but a readable tech tree is probably more important.

I can't think of anything for Amphora to lead to other than Currency at the moment, and Currency already has enough pre-reqs. Unless Amphora came after Trade, then that could be replaced for Currency. but that seems odd.

Ok, let's assume Mythology can't lead to Priesthood.

New tech tree!

No more arrows crossing, no more out of place techs (well, they're just stuck far to the right), and everything ordered in a clear way.

Of course, it's not perfect, but at least it's understandable.

Just copy the text in the CIV4TechInfos XML file.

The game crashes when I click Scientific Method or any of the later techs, but that shouldn't be a problem since they'll be getting removed anyway.

Overall though, it seems good; nicely done.

Yep, I get the Scientific Method CTD as well. If we can't fix that by the next version, I'll put up a big-ass warning.

It's crisp and clean, though I'm confused as to the lack of arrows in certain places. Calendar seems to come from nowhere, even though clicking on it shows its pre-reqs pretty clearly.

That's strange. The game crashes whenever I click end turn or pick a civilization that doesn't have a 3000 BC spawn date. I tried changing all XML entries from Monarchy to Tyranny, but that didn't help either.

EDIT: I'm taking a guess here and I'm thinking something in the python/C++ code refers to MONARCHY causing it to crash.

Hotfix time! I've switched all the techs not on the tree to be disabled. I'm not crashing at end turn, nor can I click on the techs to cause the crash.

Okay, that seems to have fixed it. :D

For some reason, Israel always starts in the Modern era. It was Plastics, now seems to be Advanced Flight. Doesn't actually do anything for them other than change the graphics. Starting assets will almost certainly need dramatic changes.

Does anyone know where the "chop" part of the tech tree is? I look at Bronze Working and don't see it. I'd like to move it to Logging, of course.

It would be in Units\CIV4BuildInfos.xml under BUILD_REMOVE_FOREST. I think all you would have to do is change <PrereqTech>TECH_BRONZE_WORKING</PrereqTech>

Israel starts with Advanced Flight too for me, but the game now crashes the turn right after it spawns. According to RiseAndFall.py, it should start with Mysticism, Polytheism and Mining, but instead it starts with Mysticism, Polytheism and.. Advanced Flight :S

Techs are probably based on a simple numerical value. I'd bet Flight comes after Plastics, and the addition of Amphora bumped it down one.

Hmm, you're right. Each tech in Consts.py has a number next to it, which refers to its position in CIV4TechInfos.xml, iMining is 60 which explains why Israel spawns with Advanced Flight. We'll have to change all those constants later on.

By "later on" I presume you mean "In the next couple of days so this thing can be playable." ;-)

Well, yeah, unless we want to see Rome steamrolling everyone with tanks xD

So what would be the easiest way to fix this? Put all the new techs at the bottom of the XML file? Change the numbers in the Python?

I think all the future/renaissiance/modern/etc techs that we won't be using should go at the bottom of the XML file, so they can be removed later without disrupting the rest of the tech order in Consts.py. The tech variables in Consts.py would have to be rewritten in that case, but I can do that if you want.

By the way, is the game crashing for you after Israel spawns?

I believe so, yes. It's got to be the advanced techs.

Here's the tech XML with Greek World techs at the top.

I'm pretty certain what's causing the crash is when the AI picks its techs. If it spawns with an advanced technology, it tries to use that decision to figure out what it's doing next. So if I play as Israel, I can click end turn, but the next civ to spawn breaks the game.

On the other hand, this does show something interesting - civs can be given disabled techs. So some civs can be given techs that others don't. Not sure if that will be useful on this mod, of course.

I'm glad you guys were able to remove/bypass some bugs. I, too, hate how calendar, astronomy and theology are orphans, but I think it's the best solution I could come up with. Unless someone wants to try to reorganize the whole thing...

Oh, and I have a bug too: my game invariably crashes when I press enter on turn 3 with any of the 3000BC civs. But shouldn't we get a thread for bugs and playtesting?

As for the techs, we'll have to think about late Antiquity now. I think we should reintroduce guilds, as it appears that they existed in Sassanid Persia, Ptolemaic Egypt and other places (well, according to wikipedia). It would require Currency and Machinery and extend the otherwise poor Economy line.

No bug like that for me. It's probably that we've got a bunch of different files floating around and inconsistent combinations of them. Next version, I'll post what I have combined with Rhye's war maps and Rathaus' techs python stuff, and hopefully that'll be playable.

Okay, I took the latest CIV4TechInfos.xml you posted. I updated Consts.py so civs now have the right technologies on spawn. I also changed CIV4TechInfos, putting future tech down at the bottom and making it so no enabled tech goes past classical era. I noticed, strangely enough, medieval/renaissance/modern techs made the game crash. Because of that, I made them all classical era techs. RiseandFall.py has also been updated so civs get Tyranny and not Monarchy on spawn, and some civs also get some new techs too.

I'm happy to say that the game doesn't seem to crash anymore after trying out a couple of autoplays. ofc, there's bound to be the occasional crash, but it shouldn't be regular anymore

No major CTDs with some initial testing through Israeli spawn.

I think Monotheism should require Storytelling, since Judaism began during the period of Hebrew conquering and settling the region of Israel, and the story of Moses and the liberation of the Hebrews from Egypt was passed on from father to son, which was the basis of the Jewish religion.

Religions and religious techs are the most likely to continue being tweaked as we go on.

Yes and for now we should give ideas on what to change.