This is a very solid UB. Faster growth, or half a specialist in each city from Classical times onward: it's not flashy, but it's just all-around good. It almost makes up for the stupid UU. (Nearest Ivory in this game was on the other side of the world, owned by a civ I wouldn't meet until medieval times. Maybe next game, ballista elephants.)

This raises a thought: what are the best UBs that are not conditional, but are /always/ good? So, for instance, the French Salon is awesome if you're going for a cultural victory, kind of meh otherwise. And you're not going to get much out of the unit-promotion UBs, like the Celtic or Spanish, if you're playing a peaceful builder. But the HRE's Rathaus is great under all circumstances. (Well, except OCC, I guess.)

So what are the best all-arounders?


Waldo

Ikhanda, sacrificial altar, zig, baray, hammam, the korean one, to name a few.

I'd give #1 all-around to either the ikhanda or the sac altar personally.

dikes never fail, especially with lakes also getting the hammer bonus.

dikes never fail, especially with lakes also getting the hammer bonus.

Dikes are not all around buildings. They are late and on some maps offer a scuzzy bonus over the basic levee. A hammer tile here and there about 1/2 to 2/3 of the way into the game on lakes isn't my idea of "consistently solid".

Dikes are strong when you don't have a lot of decent land tiles to work. Dikes are painfully, sometimes even stupidly overestimated on fairly standard maps oftentimes, often the winning position is decided before then. Even if it isn't, a typical city is only going to get 4-6 added base hammers off them, which is good, but is it *really* better than +2 :) way early in the game? The ability to reduce maintenance from "go" and gain 70% reduction on corporations? The ability to whip twice as frequently in terms of :mad:?

No. They don't deserve mention as an "all around" UB. They are situational...potentially pretty good, often very average. I long for the day when this dike orgy doesn't win out in best UB polls over numerous buildings that are consistently better.

I'm playing my first game as the Ottomans and finding the Hammam quite decent. Humble, but certainly an all-rounder.

Oh, I see that was already mentioned.

Hammam is def one of the best. I like the stock exchange, it certainly gives you a decent boost, just when you need it. When everyone starts to expand and so you need to.

Hammam is certainly a good UB. Def worth getting early to take advantage of it.

Dikes can be quite powerful, esp if used right. 4- 6 basic hammer increase can be easily turned into 12+ with the right improvements. Plus it can be very useful for one land cities, where there is little opportunity for production except with the dikes and the maio statues. Which both added to gether would give you 40+ hammers on that city or with just the dike alone at least 20+.

But I think the best UB is certainly the Cothon, extra money for your army and expansion plus health benefits and is early. With a close second Rathaus, as it does decrease your maintenance so well.

However, some people I speak to say that the pavilion is one of the best, but I disagree completely, its nothing more than a glorified theatre and does very little to the overall empire.

The hippodrome, can give lots of happiness. That's really nice.

In addition to the ones TMIT mentioned, I'd give honorary mentions to

Terrace: Often negates the need for monuments, and the pseudo-Cre in a conquest war is helpful
Madrassa: Usually most libraries are built before 1AD, so these babies usually give 8 base culture most of the game, which helps immensely in fighting high level AI border culture. The priest-enablement is much more situational but useful.
Mint: You're going to build a ton of Forges anyway, might as well get a bonus on top of that.

Cothons are great, but sometimes it's annoying that they take much more hammers than Harbors - the only UB that does this (Ikhanda costs more than a Barracks, but that's negated by Shaka's AGG). They're not "consistently great" though as there are games where you just have 0-2 coastal cities.

Hippodrome is way to situational for me.

My vote goes for the ikhanda. Shaka is aggressive so the building is very cheap while giving a solid advantage that stays relevant and powerful throughout the entire game. I'll build a ikhanda in all my cities every time I play Shaka.

zulu, carthage

In addition to the ones TMIT mentioned, I'd give honorary mentions to

Terrace: Often negates the need for monuments, and the pseudo-Cre in a conquest war is helpful
Madrassa: Usually most libraries are built before 1AD, so these babies usually give 8 base culture most of the game, which helps immensely in fighting high level AI border culture. The priest-enablement is much more situational but useful.
Mint: You're going to build a ton of Forges anyway, might as well get a bonus on top of that.

Cothons are great, but sometimes it's annoying that they take much more hammers than Harbors - the only UB that does this (Ikhanda costs more than a Barracks, but that's negated by Shaka's AGG). They're not "consistently great" though as there are games where you just have 0-2 coastal cities.

I agree with these, just hadn't thought of them previously, the terrace in particular enjoys a place near the top. Not only does this allow you to bypass monuments and go right for the important granary, but this UB is also culture that can be captured! Very nice.

The synergy from the mint is somewhat poor though for a lot of the game. Cothons are situational as you say but I agree completely on the others.

A nice bonus for some UBs is that they replace buildings that you were going to build asap anyway, so you can enjoy their benefits without delaying something else useful that you would normally build. Courthouse UBs are an obvious example, as well as the Terrace and Mint, among others. I tend to favor those over UBs that require a tech I don't usually prioritize or replace a building I don't usually build right away (like an aqueduct), though for a good UB like the Baray or Hammam it's obviously worth making the change.

Hammam/Baray are at least on a good tech path (math is required for civil service and calendar at least). So the opportunity cost isn't tech path (you'll typically trade for math regardless of whether you're khmer or ottoman), but rather the UB against alternatives. They don't beat the granary but they might beat a lot of other things.

Dyke + Moai Statues Rocks, otherwise dykes are OK, rather than awesome.

Terrace - Hmm, granary or monument - can't decide, but don't have to.

Research Instintute - very good for space, very irrelevant otherwise.

There's a persian grocer that I recal being good too, can't remember its name.

Dyke + Moai Statues Rocks, otherwise dykes are OK, rather than awesome.

Terrace - Hmm, granary or monument - can't decide, but don't have to.

Research Instintute - very good for space, very irrelevant otherwise.

There's a persian grocer that I recal being good too, can't remember its name.

Apothecary. It's a little later than the ones mentioned, but still nice. :health: is at a premium once you use monarchy to hit caps or are trying to industrialize. Darius might go the $$$ buy route, but not always. Cyrus will do that even less, and then :health: is very relevant.

Apothecary? :)

It also depends on whether we are talking unrestricted leaders or not.
For example the Terrace, that is as cheap as a monument with an expansive leader (meaning whippable with only one pop). That makes it quite a bit more valuable, as you can then get culture fast + extra growth.
Likewise the Rathaus, with a leader with Org, it's just overpowered. (Darius+HRE+Corps=easy victory).
As is it with the Ikhanda, which is fan-bloody-tastic with an aggressive leader like Shaka, less so with a non-agg leader. What makes the Ikhanda truly magnificent is that is has synergy with it's parents civilization leader, few UBs have synergy with their "true" leader.

For the truly all-round (except for OCC), I'd say (in no particular order) that these are the best and most fitting of the title:

Hamman. Extra Happy when you need it, whats not to love?
Rathaus. 75% cost reduction is huge, and becomes completely insane when you have corps. You can even have a colonial empire without going bankrupt with this (or have an income at 100% research).
Ikhanda. It comes in a building you probably weren't going to build everywhere if it wasn't a UB, and is 5% less of an increase than the Rathaus, but it comes early, and that is very important, and 20% extra cost reduction is still fantastic.
Ziggurat. It comes early, and with an inexpensive tech that also provides the Oracle, plus it cost 30 :hammers: less to construct (3/4 of the courthouse).

The Cothon, the Dike and the Sacrificial Altar deserves a special mention, as they are almost always fantastic UBs, but the two former sucks on certain maps, close to useless, the latter is not for the weirdos that don't use slavery. The Sacrificial Altar probably should be on the list, as everyone should use slavery.
Anyone that don't get the importance of double whipping, should try it.
The Dikes primary benefit is that it can be placed anywhere, more or less. :hammers: on the sea is great 'n all, but they still suck as a tile (coast+dike+lighthouse is marginally better than a pre biology riverside farm), and it often comes too late to decide the game. On some maps it rule supreme though.
One can build an economy around the Cothon, and really expand your empire overseas with little cost, and it's early. It's one of the best UBs, it's just that on some maps, it's useless.

I agree that UBs that use a building you were going to build anyway are, other things being equal, superior. The Inca Terrace is an excellent example -- almost every city will have Granaries anyhow.

That said, I have to disagree with the Zulu Ikhanda as an "all arounder". If you have an isolated start, you're not going to build a lot of Barracks normally. Or if you don't want early war. Which would be unusual playing Shaka, but not unheard of. (Frex, in my last game, I shared a continent with Babylon. Impis vs. Bowmen? Hmmm, think I'll expand peacefully until Macemen show up.)

In a case like that, you're thinking "should I build a Barracks that I don't really need , just to gain the maintenance savings?" Which is in sharp contrast to, say, the Rathaus, which you're going to build anyway.

So while I like the Ikhanda, I wouldn't put it on the all-rounders list.


Waldo

Dikes and cothons I would agree are too conditional -- they're sometimes awesome, but any UB that can regularly be useless doesn't count as an all-rounder.

The Sacrificial Altar is IMO borderline. Most players use Slavery a lot in the early game, sure. But on a low-food map, you might not get much benefit from it -- even with the faster happiness recovery, you just won't regenerate population points fast enough. So it's a bit conditional.


Waldo

In a case like that, you're thinking "should I build a Barracks that I don't really need , just to gain the maintenance savings?" Which is in sharp contrast to, say, the Rathaus, which you're going to build anyway.


I would build a ikhanda for maintenance only. Without organized religion or forge the ikhanda actually (thanks to Shakas aggressive trait) gives you a bigger maintenance reduction per :hammers: than even the rathaus.

I agree that UBs that use a building you were going to build anyway are, other things being equal, superior. The Inca Terrace is an excellent example -- almost every city will have Granaries anyhow.

Yes, this is why Ball Courts, a UB with a lot of potential on paper, is actually pretty situational (though very good in those games where you struggle with happiness and go semifast Cons). It's pretty funny though to get the national sports league quest on Mayans without SoZ - instant +4 happy pretty much for the whole empire.

I feel like the only UBs that REALLY change the game are the Ikhanda, ziggurat, and rathouse (which allow you to have more cities early in the game) and the sacrificial alter (HUGE production bonus early on). Everything else seems barely noticable, +2 happy, +2 health, or +10% gold just doesn't do much.

For me the Ikandi and Rathus because they continue to improve during the game as costs increase, plus they make Corporations that much more efficient. The Zulu is the best because it's dirt cheap and the earliest UB. The Mint, Stock exchange, Korean University are probably next especially since they all keep financial leaders (except churchill).

All the happiness one's are great, add the Ball court and Odean to the many mentioned.

The Alter is conditional on slavery or the draft, although very powerful during it's time.

The salon is pretty powerful if you use representation, free 4 beakers per city before modifiers. Just don't build it in the GP farm.

The late game UBs are pretty awesome once unlocked abd stay the rest of the game: The dike, Research Institute, Mall, Assembly Plant, Shale Plant.

What makes the Ikhanda truly magnificent is that is has synergy with it's parents civilization leader, few UBs have synergy with their "true" leader.

I reckon you can add the Rathaus to the leader-UB synergy list. Imperialistic for lots of early cities, rathauses to recover the strained economy. This combo can rescue Charlemagne from an unpromising starting position if he can get over the CoL hump.

I'm a signed member of the Dike fan club, but I agree it is highly situational depending on map type.

Two UB's I have always enjoyed, in any game I've had them, is the Terrace and Hamman.

Both are required builds, the early Cultural boost of the Terrace is much appreciated and any extra happiness with an EXP leader is very welcome.

Another UB that has synergy with a leader is the ball court. 3 :) with Pacal's expansive trait.
It's a nice UB, not top but better then average.

What do you think is the worst UB? I know the Celtic Dun doesn't get a lot of love. I agree it kinda sucks.

What do you think is the worst UB? I know the Celtic Dun doesn't get a lot of love. I agree it kinda sucks.

Stele, Feitoria, Dun, Forum, Research Institute. Name your poison.

Though I expect someone to call me a noob for dissing those last 2 ;)

Tour a noob for dissing the last 2 :lol:

Seriously, the Russian UB is basically a free Great Library and running representation that's 24 beakers before modifyers. It's not that hard to get, just beeline electricity/refridgeration/superconductors. Veyr pwoerful at higher levels when trying to win a spacerace.

The Forum is very powerful for a wonderspamming Agustus although it is basically a one city UB.

The Feitoria is not bad but map situational and comes at an odd time when you are not really prepared to build it. LAter in the game after power it's easier to build.

The Steele is the most useless wonder to me as Zara is already creative. Much more dangerous in the AI hands as you are sort of forced to take him out if he's close.

The Dun is the only UB that get's a resource bonus so it can be dirt cheap sometimes. Given the right situation it can help 2 very efficient war-mongers. How ever, more often it's worthless.

To the OP's idea of the Baray, I don't like it much. It's expensive and a building I normally build after I get power, thus I consider it a late game UB. Ditto with the Ottoman Hamm for the same reasons. A UB version of one of the least built normal buildings for me is not spectacular.

As Mad mentioned, the Odeon (esp. when playing Pericles getting it half-price) is quite strong: 2 happy faces and 3 culture.

As far as the best synergy with leaders/civilizations

Zulu is the tops.

Fred's Assembly Plants are amazingly cheap with Coal and being ORG.

The Mongol's UB feeds their powerful UU

Sitting Bull's Totems feed his Protective trait very nicely.

Pericles Odeons are damned cheap and an almost unfair additional culture there.

Stele

Though I expect someone to call me a noob for dissing those last 2 ;)

How about an earlier one? Not sure about throwing around noob over it, but I would not call this the worst UB at all. That extra little multiplier can be huge for battling out culture borders at higher difficulties. Sure you are already creative so it is niche, but when you are friendly with a nearby religion spammer who has a ton of temples and such suddenly creative just doesn't pack as large a punch. With the stele though you still normally hold your own tiles at least until you can fix the problem permanantly.


On topic - Sacrificial Alter.

the military unique buildings are more dynamic then a culture, happiness, food, production, merchant or science unique building

Venn Diagram analysis rates the Citadel over the Mint

Fact- Wall event

Fact- Castle event

Even mentioning the Dun in anything less than one of the best unique buildings in the game is a horrific comedy of eternal whatever

the evidence is clear

Tour a noob for dissing the last 2 :lol:

OK, who's the noob that wants a tour? ;)

It's not that hard to get, just beeline electricity/refridgeration/superconductors.

In my book, that's hard to get :p Also if beelined they're darn expensive to build. I guess in expert hands they can be turned into a great asset but I've never managed to do that.

The Forum is very powerful for a wonderspamming Agustus although it is basically a one city UB.

Well, with the NE it's a whopping 1 extra GP for every 8 produced (so have to work hard for it to even give 1 extra GP during a game), or even less if factoring Pacifism and golden ages. It doesn't belong in the bottom 3 but certainly isn't anything to write home about.


The Dun is the only UB that get's a resource bonus so it can be dirt cheap sometimes. Given the right situation it can help 2 very efficient war-mongers. How ever, more often it's worthless.

I just love to nitpick, so I'm obliged to note that the Assembly Plant also gets a resource bonus ;)

@Silu, Oops forgot the Assembly Plant and I just praised it in another post!

When you are doing a wonderspam every turn you can get another GP out faster matters alot, so yeah the Forum is pretty big for Agustus under that strategy. It's not the best wonder and I agree it's not bottomg three.

The Russian UB is pretty big I think and merits a different thought process, similar to the Mall and the Americans (both UB goes down the same unusual path, sort of funny). It is expensive, but then I built them after I get power so it's not so bad. Also any good Russian should be in State Property then anyway and get that production bonus.

Sitting Bull's Totems feed his Protective trait very nicely.

Ohhh yeah. :-) As a Sitting Bull fan, I will say that it is indeed great to be able to pop my archers and longbowmen out with CG3 or Drill3 right out the gate (and one point in the other promotion) without ever having gone to war or needing to use Feud/Theoc.

An AI Julius Caesar tried to Praet rush me in an Emperor game in which I had only archers and a couple of dog soldiers. At first I was face-palming and figuring I was dead, but it turned out that it ended very badly for him. Threw up a Wall in the city he was attacking and watched the xp roll in, then spammed Dogs at his additional catapults when he started making/sending them. (He only had one catapult early in the war it seemed.)

Stonehenge on SB can be veeery nice. :-)

p.s.: Any UB that reduces maintenance is going to be delicious if you're being forced to REX in order to survive. Which you are being forced to do in virtually all high-difficulty games. *nods* I have never played Sumeria but would like to try it soon because I know that being able to make a Courthouse using only Priesthood (not needing CoL) would open up a whoooole other weird tech paths that I've never done before in a REX game.

I'm also a Dike fan in principle because I like coastal cities and the Moai, but I've never actually played Willem Van up to that point in a game yet. One of my multiplayer buddies is playing him in a game we're working on though.

Sitting Bull's Totems feed his Protective trait very nicely.

Problem is, it couldn't synergize worse with his UU. Why would you ever research archery when you get top notch barbarian defense right out of the gate after just researching Bronze Working?

Ikhanda. It comes in a building you probably weren't going to build everywhere if it wasn't a UB, and is 5% less of an increase than the Rathaus, but it comes early, and that is very important, and 20% extra cost reduction is still fantastic.

Barracks are more than worth building everywhere when you plan on staying in Nationhood for great lengths of time. In my case, that goes for just about every game.

Stele, Feitoria, Dun, Forum, Research Institute. Name your poison.

Though I expect someone to call me a noob for dissing those last 2 ;)

No arguments here actually :lol:. The possible exception is the Stele, as it can be relevant for culture attempts. As good as the institute is, it really only changes the complexity of the game for later era starts (I'm guessing it is very good in modern or future starts, as its GPP potential is very nice then).

The Dun is more a multiplayer building. Guerrilla II troops are incredibly annoying chokers and often mobile enough to threaten multiple cities.

IMO, Feitoria is probably the single worst UB. To mimic the colossus right around the time where all the non-cottage improvements start to shine means that you are are getting a one commerce boost on the tiles you will typically want to work the LEAST at that point in the game, which also happens to be in the middle of it X_X.

A lot of the later UBs just have lower adjusted average values as variations in how to play maps can steer one away from even a decent UB in its era and for later ones they risk the game being *functionally* decided before they add value.

the latter is not for the weirdos that don't use slavery. The Sacrificial Altar probably should be on the list, as everyone should use slavery.

Sac. Altar also gets a discount, so although those who avoid slavery lose its main benefit, they STILL get help from it.

Ditto with the Ottoman Hamm for the same reasons. A UB version of one of the least built normal buildings for me is not spectacular.

I may not build Aqueducts often, but when I play as an Ottoman, I tend to make Mathematics a priority. The Hamman is amazing - +2 happiness and health at a time when my empire tends to be crashing after a REX or conquest with unconnected cities and a slight dearth of Workers justifies the high cost. I like to whip them at 1-2 pop so that they get done in one turn with no real happiness penalty.

The one problem is the high cost (it's a six-pop whip initially IIRC).

The possible exception is the Stele, as it can be relevant for culture attempts.

But doesn't the Stele go obsolete with Calendar? And if so, isn't it almost useless for Culture victories? Because the amount of Culture added way back before 1000 BC is going to be pretty tiny in the context of Legendary status.


Waldo

In BtS Monuments are obsoleted by Astronomy instead, so it's of some relevance. Still they suck massively even when compared to Pavilions, which also suck.

Problem is, it couldn't synergize worse with his UU. Why would you ever research archery when you get top notch barbarian defense right out of the gate after just researching Bronze Working?

Protective + Barracks + UB = Protective Archers with another 2 promotions, right out of the box.

So, CG III / Drill I Archers for city garrisons; Guerrilla II for fogbusting and for fast raids, pillaging enemy hill mines and maybe grabbing a worker or two; Medic for including in stacks; Drill III for kamikaze attacks... it goes on and on.

Later in the game, if you prioritize Machinery and Feudalism, you can actually make Longbowmen and Crossbowmen major elements of a fighting stack instead of reserving them to city defense and Maceman-killing. In a recent game I settled my first two GGs in one city so that I could produce 10 xp units and let me tell you -- archery units with Combat II, Drill I and Cover will do a very respectable job of taking enemy cities. Yeah, they're still not as effective as maces, but they're way cheaper.


Waldo

Happiness outperforms a sacrificial altar in whipping.

On epic gamespeed, whipping gives +1 :mad: for 18 turns. A sacrificial altar will make that 9 turns. Assuming equal foodsupplies, so with happiness as the limiting factor, giving the average effect on happiness:

Sacrificial Altar
whip every 9 turns for +1 :mad:
whip every 4.5 turns for +2 :mad:
whip every 3 turns for +3 :mad:

Happiness (say the Hammam, for +2:))
whip every 18 turns for +1 :)
whip every 9 turns returns neutral results
whip every 6 turns for +1 :mad:
whip every 4.5 turns for +2 :mad:
whip every 3 turns for +4 :mad:

Those lines intersect at 4.5 turns, if you whip more often than that, the SA is superior, if you don't have that amount of food, happiness is superior. And even with that food, you could opt for two-pop whips, thus increasing time between whips above 4.5 turns, and get better net results from added happiness.

I may not build Aqueducts often, but when I play as an Ottoman, I tend to make Mathematics a priority. The Hamman is amazing - +2 happiness and health at a time when my empire tends to be crashing after a REX or conquest with unconnected cities and a slight dearth of Workers justifies the high cost. I like to whip them at 1-2 pop so that they get done in one turn with no real happiness penalty.

The one problem is the high cost (it's a six-pop whip initially IIRC).

Yeah, with the Ottomans the Aqueduct goes from being a building you only use reluctantly and as a last resort, to being one that is useful in every city. How can +2 to the happiness cap in the BCs not be a good thing?

On epic gamespeed, whipping gives +1 :mad: for 18 turns.

On epic it's 15 turns.

*nods to what Vormuir said*

The idea with Sitting Bull's UU and UB is to build mixed armies that make use of both. The synergy is in the stack, rather than in the stats of the individual unit. The Dog is honestly more defensive than offensive, as a unit, as well as I can tell. It will keep you safe from those naughty swordsmen and praetorians who come trying to take your cities, and even remains useful against macemen provided that your defenses haven't been shelled to zero.

You can use Dogs to rush if you do it right--but not nearly as well when the difficulty is high enough that the AI starts with archers. You have the option of going either to bronze or to archery for early barb defense, and either way works out fine. Either way you end up with an extremely solid early game defensive force that begs to be used in multiplayer team games (for army specialization among the players).

But once you hit Feudalism and have longbows popping out of the 'racks with a total of four promotions, you can use them to absolutely steamroll any tech-comparable invasion force that doesn't include first-strike prevention. (And the latter are generally stoppable by including a spearman or three among your defenders, or just choosing more garrison/strength types of promotions.) Hopefully this will lead to quick peace and some yummy heavily-promoted longbows to upgrade to Rifles later.

I don't generally monger war myself--I'm a peace-lover in Civ--but if I'm forced to fight, the archers in question will do a very respectable job. :-)

Those lines intersect at 4.5 turns, if you whip more often than that, the SA is superior, if you don't have that amount of food, happiness is superior. And even with that food, you could opt for two-pop whips, thus increasing time between whips above 4.5 turns, and get better net results from added happiness.

Excellent point about happiness vs whip unhappiness. I'm going to enjoy trying to get my whipping done every 4.5 turns, its exactly the kind of excersise I need to improve my game in that department :D

Happiness outperforms a sacrificial altar in whipping.

On epic gamespeed, whipping gives +1 :mad: for 18 turns. A sacrificial altar will make that 9 turns. Assuming equal foodsupplies, so with happiness as the limiting factor, giving the average effect on happiness:

Sacrificial Altar
whip every 9 turns for +1 :mad:
whip every 4.5 turns for +2 :mad:
whip every 3 turns for +3 :mad:

Happiness (say the Hammam, for +2:))
whip every 18 turns for +1 :)
whip every 9 turns returns neutral results
whip every 6 turns for +1 :mad:
whip every 4.5 turns for +2 :mad:
whip every 3 turns for +4 :mad:

Those lines intersect at 4.5 turns, if you whip more often than that, the SA is superior, if you don't have that amount of food, happiness is superior. And even with that food, you could opt for two-pop whips, thus increasing time between whips above 4.5 turns, and get better net results from added happiness.

It's still a powerful building that costs less than the standard version.

Some cities can whip that much, too.

Epic whipping unhappiness lasts 15 turns.
Edit: it has been said already.

Happiness outperforms a sacrificial altar in whipping.

On epic gamespeed, whipping gives +1 :mad: for 18 turns. A sacrificial altar will make that 9 turns. Assuming equal foodsupplies, so with happiness as the limiting factor, giving the average effect on happiness:

Sacrificial Altar
whip every 9 turns for +1 :mad:
whip every 4.5 turns for +2 :mad:
whip every 3 turns for +3 :mad:

Happiness (say the Hammam, for +2:))
whip every 18 turns for +1 :)
whip every 9 turns returns neutral results
whip every 6 turns for +1 :mad:
whip every 4.5 turns for +2 :mad:
whip every 3 turns for +4 :mad:

Those lines intersect at 4.5 turns, if you whip more often than that, the SA is superior, if you don't have that amount of food, happiness is superior. And even with that food, you could opt for two-pop whips, thus increasing time between whips above 4.5 turns, and get better net results from added happiness.

I'm not sure I understand this. If you whip while there is whip anger left, the new whip anger duration is incremented by the highest one left. It's not a constant 15 or 30. On Marathon, whip anger lasts 30 turns (to avoid rounding issues):

If you whip 10 times every 15 turns with the Altar and wait for 15 turns, you end up having 0 unhappiness.
If you whip 10 times every 15 turns without the Altar and wait for 15 turns, you end up having

Time Whip anger durations
0 30
15 15 45
30 30 60
45 15 45 75
60 30 60 90
75 15 45 75 105
90 30 60 90 120
105 15 45 75 105 135
120 30 60 90 120 150
135 15 45 75 105 135 165

And let it decay for 15 turns -> 5 unhappiness left with massive cooldowns. If we go on the unhappiness diverges to infinity. How is this better than with the altar?

Or did I misunderstand something?

The new whip anger isn't incremented when you whip again, the city screen just displays it as one single reason for unhappiness with one ending date. If you whip at t=0, that unhappiness will be gone x turns later, at t=x. If you whip at t=5, that will be gone at t=5+x, and so on. Whipping again doesn't increase the duration of malcontent over earlier whips.

The new whip anger isn't incremented when you whip again, the city screen just displays it as one single reason for unhappiness with one ending date. If you whip at t=0, that unhappiness will be gone x turns later, at t=x. If you whip at t=5, that will be gone at t=5+x, and so on. Whipping again doesn't increase the duration of malcontent over earlier whips.

This is easily proved false. Whipping would be WAY overpowered if what you say is true and there would be no real penalty for stacking whip anger.

Mousing over the whip button always shows the duration of the next whip, if you whip 2 turns in a row on Marathon it shows "+1 :mad: for 59 turns" for the second, and it does indeed last 59 turns. The first whip dissipates at 29 turns at this stage though of course.

If what you say is true, then on Normal the maximum whip anger would be 10, since you can only whip once per turn and the whip anger lasts 10 turns. That would make this impossible (at this point the next whip anger would last 145 turns, couldn't bother to upload that screenie):

http://img97.imageshack.us/img97/4620/civ4screenshot0362.jpg

EDIT: Sorry Dave! I'll recolor that clock, I promise! ;)

@ Silu

You're right. I always assumed whipping anger disappeared concurrently, but it's consecutively, so one :mad: will disappear every cycle. That significantly strengthens the SA.

on Sitting Bull:
Yes , in fact UB is very useful.... i love NA civ myself, and been spawning Crossbowmans with numerous promotions, and then raping any of neighbour with them (mix of Guerillas, ampligied anti melee, drill + anti archery, anti mounted, drill with anti-siege (good protection versus cats), city defence. you can get those with 5 (!!!) promotions out from cooker.

on Altar:
to make it short - Hippodrome is better :D

I don't think there is a better all around UB than the Hammam. To increase both the happy and health caps by 2 that early is a huge benefit in any game. It can free you to wait to research monarchy in favor of another tech path or to grow your cities to considerably larger sizes than would otherwise be possible. Even after getting monarchy, having larger cities throughout the classic/medieval period can give you a research edge (higher pop = more commerce = more science) allowing you to get to gunpowder first. And trust me, you've never seen a UU dominate more than Jannisaries do, if you get them before anyone else gets muskets.

I haven't seen anyone talking about Trading Posts, which given their game long, significant benefit seems odd. +1 :move: in ships is a huge advantage early, and a significant one in the mid game and a nice benefit late. To get it without taking up two promotions (as nav1 takes from XP promos) is a great benefit in a lot of ways. And let's not forget how much this ability helps in being the first to circumnavigate the globe...and +2 :move: is more than just a nice benefit, even when you're running destroyers/battleships.

No one is talking about trading posts since it's far from an all-around UB. There are so many games where navies doesn't matter at all.

Maybe my maps are all wet.

The best for me is the Sacrificial Altar (debatable if that's a legitimate all-rounder though).
It translates into more sustainable production, and is even even better when chain whipping to get a new city up or raise an army. Regular happiness buildings are not a substitue because of the way the whip anger stacks.

Next in line are Rathouse and Ikhanda - resaonable economic benefits that are available quite early, and they outperform most late UBs once corporations enter the picture.
The Terrace is also quite good but it's misplaced on the only leader who is Industrious and starts with Mysticism.

As an aside, I quite like the Research Institute. Sure it comes late but a free specialist is a lot. +4:food:+2:health:+2:) and 2 scientist slots would sound more impressive but it's almost the same (slight variation in maintenance/trade routes).
I don't really think it's better than average, but I reserve true scorn for the Forum and the monument replacements.

You can do some cute stuff with obelisks though, although they definitely don't qualify as all-around.

Still, if you really, really want apostolic palace for example, egypt can bulb thelogy before anybody can dream of self researching it, and only the most dedicated/somewhat risky oracle beelines can compete with the speed of getting to theo. For someone playing an AP game, getting to theology first is about 80% of the game won immediately. The prophet slots otherwise are somewhat mediocre, though there's always those situations with a random holy city, even one taken by force...so I don't rate it as poorly as the roman UB or some of the later and equally less consistently useful ones.

I think the Sac Altar qualifies as "all around." After all, you can whip just about anything. And in a high food city, (without a sac altar) the unhappiness is the limit on the whip.

Happiness outperforms a sacrificial altar in whipping.

On epic gamespeed, whipping gives +1 :mad: for 18 turns. A sacrificial altar will make that 9 turns. Assuming equal foodsupplies, so with happiness as the limiting factor, giving the average effect on happiness:

Sacrificial Altar
whip every 9 turns for +1 :mad:
whip every 4.5 turns for +2 :mad:
whip every 3 turns for +3 :mad:

Happiness (say the Hammam, for +2:))
whip every 18 turns for +1 :)
whip every 9 turns returns neutral results
whip every 6 turns for +1 :mad:
whip every 4.5 turns for +2 :mad:
whip every 3 turns for +4 :mad:

Those lines intersect at 4.5 turns, if you whip more often than that, the SA is superior, if you don't have that amount of food, happiness is superior. And even with that food, you could opt for two-pop whips, thus increasing time between whips above 4.5 turns, and get better net results from added happiness.

I'm not sure I understand this.

...

I too am dubious of the result here. I'm probably too tired right now to properly analyse it but it seems to me this oversimplifies when and why the Sacrificial Alter is better.

Of course, as TMIT noted, the SA is also cheaper than usual.

Anger stacks in a different way - total anger is incremented by 1 for each whip, and 1 anger disappears every 10 (5) turns on Normal speed.

Shorter whipping cycles will eat away at happiness surpluses quite quickly; the Sacrificial Altar is far preferable for this.

As Mad mentioned, the Odeon (esp. when playing Pericles getting it half-price) is quite strong: 2 happy faces and 3 culture.

And 2 artist slots. Culture flipping is a serious option with Pericles as you can produce 13 culture (2 from Creative + 3 from Odeon + 8 from 2 Artists) more per turn early on than your neighbor, who can probably only produce about 2 or 3.

And 2 artist slots. Culture flipping is a serious option with Pericles as you can produce 13 culture (2 from Creative + 3 from Odeon + 8 from 2 Artists) more per turn early on than your neighbor, who can probably only produce about 2 or 3.

You could build a theatre.

You could build a theatre.

The AI doesn't prioritize Aestethics and Drama. Besides the Great Library and culture, there is not that much in that branch of the tech tree. Math and Construction on the other hand, what you need for the Odeon, have quite a few other benefits.

I think his point was that a Coliseum replacement is generally acquirable earlier in tech/time than theaters are (Construction doesn't require going through Aesthetics for instance, and is more likely to be already an early target tech if you plan on making War Elephants or Catas) and thus you can use it to border-flip people's towns, correspondingly, even earlier than usual.