Okay…I’ve done it to myself again. I am in a ridiculously good position early on in an emperor level game, fully knowing I have it in my ability to screw it up. This is not uncommon for me…the use of REX or early conquest to gain a large land mass only to get out-teched in the middle ages and renaissance, then finding myself in a tough spot (though often winnable) by the 15th century AD. I am playing Mehmed II (EXP/ORG) here and have taken a large share of the starting landmass, and have a plan to replace a razed (it was size one) city from my conquest of the Byzantines. I attacked not because I had to, but because the Byzantines controlled a strong choke-point against Monty, protecting a very large, very rich area. I also had horses in Istanbul’s BFC, and a good city crowding start…both excellent conditions for a very early chariot rush. (one which was obviously successful)

Current plan: settle under the chariot to the N of Constantinople, fortify this city heavily. Adopt Hinduism as soon as Monty spreads it to me, hopefully getting him friendly before too many waves of attack come. Use the protected, very large land mass to create a full dozen more cities to run a hybrid economy. Tech to middle ages, subjugate or conquer Monty and/or Victoria (whose home is across the water to the W of Istanbul). Proceed to industrial period for world conquest using Artillery/Infantry.

This seems sound to me – but how do I maximize the tech rate? Do I just crash my economy settling the dozen city sites (you can see these by hitting ctrl-X if you have bug) and let them grow ASAP? Do I build the few best sites and develop my economy to prevent strike? I ask this because I’ve done the latter at this level before and found myself (starting from similar situations) fighting at tech parity in the industrial period, and I’d like to avoid that. (though this strategy proved very effective at Prince/monarch) Or another option: do I revert to chariot production then kill Monty now, returning to one of the previous plans once completed? Or is there another option I am overlooking?

Please help…my mid-game is weak.

EDIT: also unsure if Alpha is right research here...with Hammams, Math seems very tempting...what's more important? 2 :) or tech trading?

Edited to add images: The Choke point north of Constantinople, my core cities, the dotmap/landmass, and the graphs.
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9840/chokek.th.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/chokek.jpg/) http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/6761/coree.th.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/coree.jpg/) http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9453/dotmap.th.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/dotmap.jpg/) http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1554/graphsy.th.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/graphsy.jpg/)

Step 1: Build 1.5 workers per city.

Step 2: Get Currency, Code of Laws, and Monarchy

Step 3: Fill in every gap with cities

does that thread actually need more posts ?

i don't know, I think DaveMcw just nailed it

Anyone who thinks that a worker shortage is my issue at this point didn't take a close look. I know I will need a higher worker/city ratio than I now have once I have more cities and higher populations/faster growth, but there is exactly one unimproved tile (in conquered territory, no less) being worked in this entire kingdom. So increasing worker output is counter-intuitive, and probably counter-productive at this point, unless you can qualify with warrants such an action as step one.

The newer cities need granaries/lighthouse to grow. You have enough garrison for the moment. You might want to fogbust with your extra units.
Monty looks weak. After you finish scouting him, you might want to rush him too.

And yea... you're gonna need more workers soon :)

Go binary research. If you plan to make an academy, then go 0% until the GS and then 100%. Otherwise, 100% to get the most out of your multipliers.

Calendar and settle those super yummy calendar cities. Get monarchy-currency-CoL, and watch the commerce flow.
Kill your nearest neighbour.
??
Profit!

All cities need granaries, to maximize the whip, but I digress...I will need more workers only when I build more cities. The next person who suggests workers before building more cities (without explaining why I should be improving tiles that won't be worked for 100 turns) is being officially considered an idiot in my eyes. Again: there is one soon to be improved tile being worked in the entire kingdom. Every other worked tile has been improved. I am under a despotism happy cap....there is no need (yet) for a massive slough of workers. My :hammers: and :food: are better spent on granaries and settlers or libraries first.

Please, before telling me I need more workers, explain wtf they are going to be doing (other than chopping - ineffeciently, i might add) until more cities need improvements?

More workers for chopping infra&settlers/improving better tiles than you are working, like iron for example - it will bring your cities up much faster.

Calendar and settle those super yummy calendar cities. Get monarchy-currency-CoL, and watch the commerce flow.
I like this idea a lot. On the road to calendar are Hammams, so not only do I get happiness from all the plantations but from my UB. I could have cities at size 8 (7 if monty is lazy about religion spreading) before I even get to monarchy.

More workers for chopping infra&settlers/improving better tiles than you are working, like iron for example - it will bring your cities up much faster.even if I'd had a worker sitting on that iron when I discovered IW, the mine wouldn't be up and running yet, just so you know. It is my next worker priority, after they complete their current tasks. (I generally don't call them off once started, except for emergencies)

Well, I have to join the "idiots" and say that Dave nailed it. Workers, Settlers, economy techs. Plus fogbust as kossin said. You have room for 15+ cities peacefully. No need to ever go to war again unless you want it.

I'd also say you went way overboard with the overlap again ;)

Please...why do I need workers to improve unworked tiles? I know I will want to be building more workers, but in a pre-math, nearly 100% improved tile usage situation, I simply can't justify putting workers ahead of settlers in the build orders...I know you're not an idiot Silu...just tell me what the hell I would be doing with 4 more workers that my current force won't be able to accomplish in a reasonable time frame (hook up iron, connect conquered lands with capital). By the time the settlers are done, the five workers I now have can be ready to improve new cities.

I suppose I will probably bulb math in a few turns, making those workers very useful for chopping out hammams (with a reasonably short tech detour/trade), increasing worked tiles by 2 per city compounding their usefulness. So, yeah...now that I think about it, a few more workers will be helpful pretty soon. (Showing that sometimes I think while I write posts) Is that the reasoning? Are you saying yes even though you hadn't thought of it that specifically, but it makes sense?

(And fogbusting is ongoing...only delayed for the purpose of focusing resources on early conquest)

I'd be very tempted to go after Monty right away. How many chariots do you have left over?
If I had 10-12 with half of those with Combat II or Flanking, I'd try to clear out the entire continent. Monty is the last one left right?

Conquered gold will help the funds and you can peacefully expand after that. If you have 1-2 cottage cities or are going to set them up, then I'd tank the economy with war. If you take out Monty that should give you about 9-10 cities by 1ad which is a perfectly good pace on Emperor, plus he may have a shrine for Hinduism.

Don't bulb math. Use it on capital academy or save for a better bulb.

Soon you're gonna have a ton of new cities so might as well have more workes beforehand taking care of any stuff that needs work ASAP. When you settle your next new city you wil instantly run out of worker power otherwise - old towns grow, new towns grow, improvements needed everywhere. Plus you have quite a bit of jungle and FPs which always take an eternity to improve - you can suddenly realize you're working 2 unimproved tiles in every city since you can't get rid of that crap.

This might not be the reason they're thinking of, but I know I've suffered long term from lack of workers in similar situations. I start with say 6 cities roaded together, 7 workers, and every city has 2 improved tiles ready to grow into. At this exact moment I don't need more workers.

So I get busy hooking up trade goods and building more road networks about the same time I also get the large happiness increase from HR garrisons and Calendar. Suddenly I find that several cities are growing fast enough that 1 new guy keeps working an unimproved tile. Or that while every tile is improved, I can't swap between say a farm and a mine despite being at the happy cap. I have to either go specialist in a nonoptimal city or work an unimproved production tile. Now I wish I had built more workers earlier to get more land ready ahead of time.

I'd be very tempted to go after Monty right away. How many chariots do you have left over?
If I had 10-12 with half of those with Combat II or Flanking, I'd try to clear out the entire continent. Monty is the last one left right?

Conquered gold will help the funds and you can peacefully expand after that. If you have 1-2 cottage cities or are going to set them up, then I'd tank the economy with war. If you take out Monty that should give you about 9-10 cities by 1ad which is a perfectly good pace on Emperor, plus he may have a shrine for Hinduism.At the point of the save (And pics) there are only six chariots (of an original 15) remaining. While it would be easy to get a few more, and kill off Monty (who hasn't been unit-whoring, and does not yet have jaguars), it would most likely completely crash the economy. While I do covet some of what he has, I also can see the benefit of getting to work on my economy now with such a large, readily defensible landmass. This is particularly true with Mehmed's combination of UB, traits and strong renaissance UU. (Good for crushing Monty quickly and efficiently when the time comes)

Of course, if Monty decides he'd rather hate me than the others (to whom I hope to convert to buddhism) then I might regret that choice.

lol- stellar advice - build 1.5 workers- lol- yeah and a unicorn

tech towards a tech - lol - yeah that'll help a person's whole middle game

fill in gaps- hopefully its logic that is being referenced

lame at best- detrimental at worse

- use specialists and build more war units- this is the superior

OK, if you are worried about crashing your economy too hard with your REX, then consider carefully the ORDER of your city placement: Once Adrianople gets a border pop your blocking will be complete, that proposed city under the chariot will just be an expensive target for monty (and not even on a hill). Better to just chop away all but one forest (1W of stone) to clear a kill zone and stack up defenders in remaining forest (plus fort? I think forts now add to forests rather than chop them away, right?).

For econ, next two cities should be commerce city with the gold+FP. Just one gold mine pays upkeep, Farm enough to feed the mine then cottage up the rest of the FP. Your target should be to cottage the hell out of your land now so that they mature in time to keep you in the running for tech by mid-game. (Thus, Dave McW says workers... he also is known for saying "cottages!").

In general, you want your new cities to grow as fast as possible. You're looking at a lot of jungle, so that probably means sending at least two workers together with a settler: One to build the first few improvements and a second to start on the chop jungle:build cottage cycle. The first improvements in new cities should be to develop FOOD: You want to grow fast, but you want to start working cottages soon so they grow too. That means as you grow your worked tiles should be 1) food 2) food 3) food/production 4-8)cottage.

Contrary to the grow fast idea, you also want to remember to whip! Pop grows back fastest when your city is small. Whip your basic infrastructure (granary,monument) and keep your worked tiles focused on food.

Midgame tech parity will also depend on great scientist production.
At this point, both Istanbul and Constantinople can easily afford to run 2 scientists, so get libraries up. In the long term, I like the Banana/clam/fish spot to the south as your GP farm (adjust your dotmap accordingly). You will get the Dye resource from your city tile so you can Farm over the rest.

Tech parity also comes from tech trade/brokering. You have plenty of land, so love your neighbors. Keep monty friendly and he is good for backfill. Tech sailing soon and open borders to start building trade routes, especially if Liz is overseas. You have lots of coastal sites, have you considered the Great Lighthouse?

Ok, enough for now.

1.5 workers per city isn't a unicorn... I hit that number in many of my games, and have exceeded it in this one (at the point I'm at now 740BC). I never, at any point disputed the usefulness or workability of a high worker ratio...the ratio simply isn't necessary earlier than the point I posted. (In this kind of game) I plan to have 21 cities on this landmass, and I expect it will take at least 30 workers get them all up and running quickly. Right now I have eight cities and 13 workers. That ratio will work for me until I get CoL, then I will start building more workers/settlers (in an approximate 3:2 ratio) until I fill my land.

And as good an idea as the GlH is here, it's difficult to make it practical. (And gone at the point I am writing now) While the extra trade routes are beneficial, building a LH and the GLH takes a lot of chopping.

The farm on the banana/clam/fish site actually results in a better dotmap...thanks.

lol- ok i will attack with a warrior and a half of a warrior next game.

you can have two workers work a city- or 1 worker - or three

half workers are like non exsistent.

oft tiimes referred to as the Patton of Civ4, i suggest capture more and build less and automate all but a couple . this is the superior

lol...okay. I am talking about a ratio, not a split in half worker...but I guess that wasn't clear. I also have ratios, often not whole numbers, to calculate how many attackers I need for when I use your "build units, kill them all" approach. If attacking a city of rifles with infantry (And espionage enough to reduce defenses to zero) I will bring a 3-2 (or 1.5-1) ratio. So to put it in your terms, you should have three workers for every two cities in your empire, to ensure maximum performance.

the kill ratio espionage thing as equation idea

prefer venn diagram analysis which is why a half a worker would be something more like a worker and a worker 50 percent through in a city que

"build units, kill them all"- library somewhere and a courthouse in the capitol-alpha and luck and random event over ratio - anything favorable from the get go avoid- ie bronze? wait don't rush- its an AI trap

You're wierd.

and I know weird.

Not sure what you call "weak game". Please explain.

If you ask what to do next, my plan:
1. Increase research rate
2. Connect cities
3. Do cottages instead of production (maybe some more workers needed to build cottages asap)
4. Get Currency somehow (e.g. build research). Work on unimproved commerce tiles instead of improved if needed. Currency usually very useful if have many cities, especially if foreign trade routes achievable. Imho most important early tech if many cities.
5. Do not try to make peace with Monty too hard, it is much fun if you know where enemy comes from. You need army anyway so just be prepared for his arrival. Then just kill everything he brings in. You may concentrate 90% of your units in very small area to defend, so this should be easy to perform + many experience points.

Okay…I’ve done it to myself again. I am in a ridiculously good position early on in an emperor level game, fully knowing I have it in my ability to screw it up. This is not uncommon for me…the use of REX or early conquest to gain a large land mass only to get out-teched in the middle ages and renaissance, then finding myself in a tough spot (though often winnable) by the 15th century AD. I am playing Mehmed II (EXP/ORG) here and have taken a large share of the starting landmass, and have a plan to replace a razed (it was size one) city from my conquest of the Byzantines. I attacked not because I had to, but because the Byzantines controlled a strong choke-point against Monty, protecting a very large, very rich area. I also had horses in Istanbul’s BFC, and a good city crowding start…both excellent conditions for a very early chariot rush. (one which was obviously successful)

Current plan: settle under the chariot to the N of Constantinople, fortify this city heavily. Adopt Hinduism as soon as Monty spreads it to me, hopefully getting him friendly before too many waves of attack come. Use the protected, very large land mass to create a full dozen more cities to run a hybrid economy. Tech to middle ages, subjugate or conquer Monty and/or Victoria (whose home is across the water to the W of Istanbul). Proceed to industrial period for world conquest using Artillery/Infantry.

This seems sound to me – but how do I maximize the tech rate? Do I just crash my economy settling the dozen city sites (you can see these by hitting ctrl-X if you have bug) and let them grow ASAP? Do I build the few best sites and develop my economy to prevent strike? I ask this because I’ve done the latter at this level before and found myself (starting from similar situations) fighting at tech parity in the industrial period, and I’d like to avoid that. (though this strategy proved very effective at Prince/monarch) Or another option: do I revert to chariot production then kill Monty now, returning to one of the previous plans once completed? Or is there another option I am overlooking?

Please help…my mid-game is weak.

EDIT: also unsure if Alpha is right research here...with Hammams, Math seems very tempting...what's more important? 2 :) or tech trading?

Edited to add images: The Choke point north of Constantinople, my core cities, the dotmap/landmass, and the graphs.
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9840/chokek.th.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/chokek.jpg/) http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/6761/coree.th.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/coree.jpg/) http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9453/dotmap.th.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/dotmap.jpg/) http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/1554/graphsy.th.jpg (http://img7.imageshack.us/i/graphsy.jpg/)

Hey Dude,

Its off-topic but i just want to konw why the interface for the game has changed.. what did you download for that?

Thanks!

I would seriously consider moving the capital into the middle of your cities. The dye-banana city should also be put up and running as soon as you can. I'd send an army of workers + settler and fog buster down there. And no, I wouldn't wait for calendar to settle it - you can just cottage the dye tiles.

And I agree with the general sentiment that you'll need more workers as you crank out settlers. At this stage of the game, I normally leave my capital on permanent worker/settler duty with occasional growth as the :) increases. I'd also tech alphabet -- currency, not CoL. Also, assuming that's your first GS coming in Istanbul, turn the slider to 0% until you get the academy. Then go 100% to alphabet.

I like this idea a lot. On the road to calendar are Hammams, so not only do I get happiness from all the plantations but from my UB. I could have cities at size 8 (7 if monty is lazy about religion spreading) before I even get to monarchy.

I kind of like this idea in conjunction with what Dave said. The map kind of calls for calendar, since while you are filling in the cities, some of them will completely pay for themselves AND contribute towards the focused research path right away. To be honest, you could probably even push off Monarchy a little bit, as you are looking a lot of happy from other sources, but the wine tiles might be needed sooner rather than later.

If I were you, and you were playing at monarch rather than Emperor, I would probably do one of two things:

1. Consolidate forces and charge head first into Aztec territory on a savage city razing campaign. The best Monty is a dead Monty, I always say. It sure doesn't look like he's got much other than you to keep him from expanding into a very nice and much less backward nation than normal. (NOT a good thing, IMO.)

or,

2. Calendar, then Code of Laws. Forget Alphabet or Math for a little while. I guess you need to use that scientist to build an academy in your capital, since the bulb options aren't all that great now. However, by making a straight line for Code of Laws, I think you'll move along several things that will get you through the dark ages in really good shape to deal with the Aztec problem right around when you can afford to keep his cities.

- You get half price courthouses, so you can pretty much whip them out quickly and really cut maintenance on all of the cities you can build. Combine that with the gold, the dye, the sugar, the cottages, and you will really pay for the rapid expansion with no trouble.
- You open up Philosophy to bulb with your next scientist. Besides, with CoL and Calendar, you should be able to trade for Math and Alphabet, and some of the other things you're missing (provided you can establish a trading partner or two from what's left on the map.) If you can't trade for Alphabet after you complete CoL, I guess I'd go for Math on my own.
- You might found a religion or two with CoL and Philosophy. It never hurts to have a future shrine city.
- You can keep going down the path of using scientists to help you towards Liberalism while your maturing economy starts to really generate some outstanding commerce. You've got a real shot at researching towards something really useful for killing Monty while also winning the Liberalism race. At my level, I'd already be thinking Steel. You'd want gunpowder anyway. Even if steel is out of reach, I'd still try for Chemistry.