The Drill and Flanking line of promotions seem (to me) to be objectively inferior to the Combat, City Raider, City Garrison and counter-unit promotions. I pick up one point of flanking on some naval units if I intend to pursue the navigation promotion, but otherwise, nada. Only time I've used Drill since my newb years was on one infantry unit with Warlord Leadership and the Devil's own luck that managed to get the full Combat line and Pinch.

Do you use Drill or Flanking? Why? Convince me they don't suck, or that they have some special strategic use I'm overlooking. I'll be the first to admit I don't have much of a head for numbers. Are first strikes worth more than they appear at first glance? Does a few levels of flanking dramatically increase a unit's long term survivability?

yeah they suck. repeated studies have found as such

yeah they suck. repeated studies have found as such

You responded before the poll was up. Don't need to ask how you will vote. :goodjob:

More information than you'd ever want:

Protective Trait-- Underrated? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=307430)

First Strikes (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7720659)

Somebody please justify flanking for me! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=284521)

Flanking(the new ability for mounted units to kill siege weapons) how does it work? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=301093)

Edit: I voted they're great.

"It (Drill) really has nothing in common to the other promotions, but is a fancy term for Armour"- obsolete

not sure how valid this statement is- however use Drill for archers and they seem like better attack units

if it is more like an "Armor" promotion then drill to formation (or even cover) might be more optimal then combat to shock. the evidence is not clear

well - flanking lets your horse units have a much higher chance of inflicting flanking damage on an enemy stack, so it's well worth it on mounted units

Flanking mounted units>>>>>siege.

Both are situational, but I'm gradually finding more and more situations to use them.

More information than you'd ever want:

Protective Trait-- Underrated? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=307430)

First Strikes (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=7720659)

Somebody please justify flanking for me! (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=284521)

Flanking(the new ability for mounted units to kill siege weapons) how does it work? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=301093)

Edit: I voted they're great.

Well, that info convinced me to give flanking another chance. Consensus seems to be that if you aren't getting flanking 2+, you should skip it entirely, and it isn't that great on chariots and knights (I tend to skip HAs) which may be why I was underwhelmed by it.

Still not convinced drill is good. So your attackers take little/no damage killing the defenders that the artillery weakened. So what? They still have to wait for the artillery to heal. The way the AI fights you only have to repel one serious counter-attack (if that) and then they're done, so having half your units take no damage seems pointless if the other half still have to heal up from 10 HP after every captured city. I don't know... Maybe in multi-player where you have to deal with defensive siege weapons the protection from collateral damage might help, but from the links you provided, apparently the way to deal with that is flanking-promoted cavalry.

Voted flanking great, drill useful. I quite enjoy rushing with mounted units, and flanking makes for efficient city raiding without siege or other auxiliary units. Drill is fine, very good when up to drill 3 or 4, but not overall great like flanking in my view.

Flanking 2 cavalry are awesome. They have a minimum 50% survival rate just from the withdrawal.

Well, so far these results have defied my expectations. Except for one guy who agreed with me wholeheartedly (and then didn't vote in the poll) everyone has given at least a nod to flanking. Drill seems more controversial, but there are only 13 votes so far. I'm slowly learning to master Emperor difficulty, and have my eyes set on Immortal one of these days, so I am always open to new ideas that will improve my game.

anything that saves your units in an unsuccessful attack is a great promotion IMO. Surviving units gain experiences, and soon you'll find yourself going down the combat line if you choose. Flanking I&II are the first promotions I put on most cavalry units anyway. Besides, collateral damage to siege units, while being the bane of my existence when fighting monty of shaka's endless stacks of cavalry vs my artillery, I can see great use for in counterattacking stack.

Drill is great when you get further down the drill line past I&II. Taking less collateral damage means stronger stacks when approaching a city. I deem this more important than the additional healing power of the later combat promotions, especially since by the time I'm using drill-promotable units in taking cities I'll probably have a super medic taking care of their wounds already.

City Raider is superior to drill for taking cities, [obviously], by by the time I have to choose between the 2 promotions, it's at tanks, and by that time wars are won more often by number than clever stack composition.

Usually when I chariot rush, the first ones to attack get Flanking promotions, they suicide attack to soft the defenders, but some of them survive to get flanking 2, that are great to soft the defenders.

Promoting two or three mounted units down the flanking line right before a rush can be really helpful when you don't have any siege. They are more likely to live to fight another day and still do the job of softenign up the defenders. Also, flanking2 opens up the sentry promotion which is helpful in the early game when it is otherwise difficult to see what the AI is sending after your SoD during a rush.

Drill is good once you get to about drill4. This can be really doable with Oromos and cho-ko-nus and the results are well worth it.

Chariot rush is one of my favorite early tactics, and I wholeheartedly endorse flanking for chariots. Just as JBosch says, the flanking one chariots mostly die, but those which don't become powerful tools in later battles. And even the ones which die serve as much purpose as a combat 1 chariot on the first wave...they wound the archers enough for the second wave of combat 1 chariots to finish them. I generally favor combat promotion 2-1 in my chariot builds for a mix that works for me.

Drill is useful for its ability to promote more aggressive attacks with finishing troops (be they longbows, muskets, rifles or infantry) in siege. This means you can hold some siege engines in reserve, rather than wounding them all, when attacking a city. A Drill II troop doesn't need the enemy reduced all the way to its minimum from collateral before attacking. So, while your combat promoted troops and wounded artillery heal in the captured city, the drill soldiers and reserve artillery can go to the front.

Drill is useful for its ability to promote more aggressive attacks with finishing troops (be they longbows, muskets, rifles or infantry) in siege. This means you can hold some siege engines in reserve, rather than wounding them all, when attacking a city. A Drill II troop doesn't need the enemy reduced all the way to its minimum from collateral before attacking. So, while your combat promoted troops and wounded artillery heal in the captured city, the drill soldiers and reserve artillery can go to the front.

I'm still not sure what the key difference is. Tell me if this sounds right? "A Drill promoted unit has a lower chance of success than a Combat/CR promoted unit, but when it wins it takes less damage. This fact, combined with resistance to collateral damage from defending siege, allow an assault to move from target to target more quickly, but with potentially higher losses." Does that sum up drill? If I am understanding it right, I'm still not sure i like it.

I tend to be a bit of a builder, though, so when I go to conquer, I have very narrow objectives and then plan to bring the smallest amount of troops necessary to get the job done with minimal risk. That usually means EVERYBODY fights, even the lowly spearman with medic 2 that was just there as a combination medic/chariot counter. By the time he fights there is one archer with .3 strength left, but still, he has to earn his keep. Maybe this is why I don't find drill useful. No matter what I did, the assault would have to pause after every city taken.

Flanking 2 cavalry are awesome. They have a minimum 50% survival rate just from the withdrawal.

Horse archers are 50%. Cavalry are even more.

I use flanking every time I use mounted (though it isn't the only promo I take). Drill I don't use quite as consistently but it definitely has its place in the game. Due to how drill defenders are coded poorly to be picked, first strike immunity on some of the higher base STR units, and general lack of AI ability to use siege properly, I wouldn't call drill "great" in single player, though.

Drill is OK, but I rarely use it. Flanking is more useful, but I tend to only put it on some of my Calvary. They both increase unit survivability somewhat. Calvary with flanking II is great against city defenders and seige units.

a barracks first build and protective give drill 2 and garrison

two barbarian fights and its cover and formation- 5 promotions- (is that the cap on fighting barbs?)

i will use a protective civ and drill/cover/formation in a counterattack walkthrough

Drill is best when you have a big tech edge. Drill infantry are better against longbows and muskets than combat infantry. The other edge in drill is the XP boosts. When you have a D4 unit at the sweet spot where you have like 99% combat odds to win, AND you get 3XP from a win, they're great. Other time I use drill a lot is ships. I'd rather a D3 battleship than a C3 battleship most of the time (if only drill3 opened up blitz like C3 does).

Flanking is good, as people mentioned, for tougher battles. F1/2 cavalry have 60% chance to win any battle, which isn't that bad when going against tough units. It's situational, but when you need it, it's great. Plus, you need it on some cavalry if you're up against high first strike units (since cavalry don't have the immunity).

The Drill and Flanking line of promotions seem (to me) to be objectively inferior to the Combat, City Raider, City Garrison and counter-unit promotions. I pick up one point of flanking on some naval units if I intend to pursue the navigation promotion, but otherwise, nada. Only time I've used Drill since my newb years was on one infantry unit with Warlord Leadership and the Devil's own luck that managed to get the full Combat line and Pinch.

Do you use Drill or Flanking? Why? Convince me they don't suck, or that they have some special strategic use I'm overlooking. I'll be the first to admit I don't have much of a head for numbers. Are first strikes worth more than they appear at first glance? Does a few levels of flanking dramatically increase a unit's long term survivability?

You are right about Flank II sucking. Actually, it's god-terrible, and you'll never see deity players using this (at least not winning ones). Flank I does have a small feature, as you already figured out, it gets to that Nav. However, I also use Flank I in order to get my Sentry, since the human player can run circles around the AI with fewer units if his intel is decent.

The only thing I can sum up is, Flank II is for weak players. It's for those who are TRYING NOT TO LOSE, I prefer to try TO WIN.

Drill is a special niche... If you anticipate lots of war, and are highly outnumbered, you'd be smart to take something like Sitting Bull's bowmen and go up the drill line. Drill I & II isn't that big a deal, but getting to that Drill IV is a nice payoff.

"It (Drill) really has nothing in common to the other promotions, but is a fancy term for Armour"- obsolete

not sure how valid this statement is- however use Drill for archers and they seem like better attack units

if it is more like an "Armor" promotion then drill to formation (or even cover) might be more optimal then combat to shock. the evidence is not clear

For the reccord, Drill does not modify any attack values at all. The reason the combat odds (seem to) increase with Drill is because your armour lets you last longer, which means more chance to get extra HITS IN when things go bad.

= Higher winning rate over all.

Both are useful.

Drill is a great defensive promotion; if you have favourable odds anyway it can give you better odds than Combat. Moreover, it greatly increases your chance of winning without taking a scratch - extremely useful when facing a horde of obsolete units.

There is a fairly major problem with it though: The code that picks the best defender greatly overrates first strikes so you Drill units will usually defend first even if there are better candidates. This is especially annoying since, against siege, Drill units would be great as a *second* line of defense because they take less collateral damage.

I still like the Drill line best except on my initial can openers.

***

Flanking is usually my promotion line of choice if the mounted unit in question lacks native first strike immunity. Otherwise it depends... it's useful for the first line of attack, but I rarely use mounted units unsupported.

I don't like it much for my navy.

Flanking on superior horsey's is just awesome. You can attack longbows with Currassiers and not even need spies to take down defences,and you occassionally win the fight too ! You can even do it with gunships if, for some reason, your opponent hasn't researched rocketry yet.

Drill is only marginally useful at lower levels, mostly for minimising casualties attacking siege-softended defenders - but this advantage is minimised by the fact your seige needs time to heal anyway. Agree that Drill in defence sucks, too many attackers have (or can get) first strike immunity.

I like archers with a lot of Drill promotions, they are more versatile. I used to put City Defender on all my archer units, but I ended up with a lot of archers that never used their special ability when they were in cities that didn't get attacked. Drill archers are better for offensive stacks. When you have Protective and a lot of experience adding buildings/civics/instructors, you can make Drill IV units that can even be useful as city attackers when you have higher level ones (I especially like it once I get into the gunpowder units).

I've been working on my horse game lately, I tend to neglect mounted units and I'm trying to use them more, but I still don't have enough of them for the Flanking benefits to really show themselves.

I use Flanking II on most of my mounted units. Flank I/Navigation on my transports. The whole 50 withdrawal rate is pretty damn useful.

I wouldn't touch drill with a ten foot pole unless I was a protective leader. At that point, I am more than happy to churn out Drill III or Drill IV gunpowder units. Drill IV rifles are pretty damn good units.

Flanking submarines are the best. Iirc, flanking II subs have something like an 80% withdrawal chance.

In using Drill as an Armour promotion- an idea obsolete formulated-and utilizing Flanking a Protective Leader can field a potent non metal army.

Stonewall Jackson -Protective Organized- Emperor-Fractal-Random all else-Blue Marble aqua
Confederacy by strategyonly
no Unique Unit
Cotton Exchange Unique Building

Settler builds in place, Barracks first build- Hunting to Archery-
2nd City build in Echelon (diagnal) formation -more on that later
Random event-Bowery- Combat added to-Garrison, Drill2-aim to add Formation

Stack of Drill promoted hyper modern armoured confederate archers and a few Chariots (Flanking) attack and raze the city. The remenant of the army holds on a hill.

The city build in a diagnal means that Ragnar can only attack Montgomery- the city positioning makes defense of the other cities uneccessay as they are to far away for a counter attack

even War Elephants struggle against a spear and the hyper armoured confederate archers (Drill/Formation)

they hold long enough for spear and a Fort to be built-holding out against a stack of elephants

the evidence is clear- Drill and Flanking Chariots are the superior

Well, at 64 votes, we have the following results:

------------Drill-------Flanking-----------

Great______21_________36____________

OK________35_________20____________

Sucks______8__________8_____________

(does this forum have a table function like phpBB, so I don't have to cobble it together like this)

Based on these results and info provided I will give flanking another chance on mounted units other than Chariots and Knights, if I can get Flanking 2.

Still not convinced about Drill. I'm not getting a coherent message concerning how or why I should use it. I don't like that I have to get it to level 3 or higher before it gets effective (CR 3 is also really useful too, you know) and am still not sure how to use it. Some adherents swear by it for defense, some offense. I'd be more confident if the Sucks took more votes, but I am going to stick with CR/CG and combat promos, thanks.

@ Troy the Face, that confederate UB is obscenely overpowered. A coastal commerce booster? Wasn't the Confederacy subject to an economically crippling naval blockade for most of its short existence as a political entity? It doesn't even require a harbor present like a normal customs house. Don't tell me you can build that in every city! And those confederate archers look ridiculous. Its like redneck day at the Society for Creative Anachronism.

Also, your case for flanking a drill isn't very convincing.

Flanking is something I really like to bring to a fight. Taking out the enemy siege engines by flanking is just plain fun. If you are fighting the big warmongers with big armies like monty or shaka flanking is just something that will help you a lot. I just wish flanking would damage all siege engines, as in gunships should also hit catapults and not just artillery etc...

Drill is somewhat usefull. Machineguns always get these promotions with me. And as a protective leader I often upgrade some of them along that line as stack protectors.

I just wish flanking would damage all siege engines, as in gunships should also hit catapults and not just artillery etc...

If you have advanced flight, why the hell are you worried about catapaults? How are you even encountering them? WB shenanigans? Most obsolete unit I've ever seen that late was a Knight. I'll give you two guesses what leader it belonged to...

Drill is somewhat usefull. Machineguns always get these promotions with me.

Ah, see, I hardly ever build machine guns because I am not a big fan of not being able to attack, but I could see putting drill on them makes sense. All they can do is wear down an attacking SOD, so something that increases damage to the opponent in the event of death makes sense.

Oh course, my preferred method for heavily damaging SODs is suicide artillery on them until even their strongest units are easily defeated by my conventional troops.

Ah, see, I hardly ever build machine guns because I am not a big fan of not being able to attack, but I could see putting drill on them makes sense. All they can do is wear down an attacking SOD, so something that increases damage to the opponent in the event of death makes sense.

Isn't drill the only promo machine guns produced directly can take :lol:?!

You can upgrade CG grenadiers or something but I seldom find that worth my while. I almost never actually build MG's, though do make some use of drill.

Isn't drill the only promo machine guns produced directly can take :lol:?!

You can upgrade CG grenadiers or something but I seldom find that worth my while. I almost never actually build MG's, though do make some use of drill.

Is it? I thought they could take combat... well, they are technically an artillery unit. I don't know, I decided they suck a long time ago and haven't built one since.

And saying that drill is useful on a unit that can't possibly take anything else isn't a really strong case, Killroyan. If your MGs could take CG, would you still put drill on them?

Flanking is something I really like to bring to a fight. Taking out the enemy siege engines by flanking is just plain fun. If you are fighting the big warmongers with big armies like monty or shaka flanking is just something that will help you a lot. I just wish flanking would damage all siege engines, as in gunships should also hit catapults and not just artillery etc...


You are confusing the promotions flanking I (+10% withdrawal rate) and flanking II (+20% withdrawal rate and immunity from first strikes) with some units' (horse archers, knights, cuirassiers, cavalry and gunship) ability to flank attack catapults, trebuchets, cannons, artillery and mobile artillery.

Firaxis should never have chosen the same name for the promotion and the inherited ability to flank attack.

**************

The two are somewhat linked. The flanking promotion ensures that the flanking mechanic will do its dirty work, even against a big and varied stack that gives you no hope of individually favourable fights.

"Also, your case for flanking a drill isn't very convincing"

lol- yes an illustration showing Drill line promotions used on the offense and defense is apparently worse then...."Based on these results"

looking at a poll? (lol)

I suggest Charlemange or Saladin as two optimal Protective leaders for this method in leiu of the Confederacy- there is also a Trojan Civ that is pro/imp with Hector as a leader.

The evidence is clear- Drill promoted Archers of Tommorrow.

I'm still not sure what the key difference is. Tell me if this sounds right? "A Drill promoted unit has a lower chance of success than a Combat/CR promoted unit, but when it wins it takes less damage. This fact, combined with resistance to collateral damage from defending siege, allow an assault to move from target to target more quickly, but with potentially higher losses." Does that sum up drill? If I am understanding it right, I'm still not sure i like it.Not quite. First strikes mean they can finish the battle with no damage, not simply less. So, assuming you've gotten collateral damage on a stack you're attacking, you can begin the attack with either your drill troops (Assuming the collateral was enough to make victory likely) freeing your combat troops to move to the front quickly...or, you can use the less promoted Combat line troops attack to take the first casualties, only bringing the drill troops into the fray once the strongest defenders have been severely wounded. Also, if your opponent has mounted troops, it's good to have unwounded units left guarding your siege after the city falls. The drill troops which won their combat will be able to defend well. Anyone who's ever seen a stack of trebs killed by chariots/HAs for want of a single unwounded defender will see the usefulness of this.

I tend to be a bit of a builder, though, so when I go to conquer, I have very narrow objectives and then plan to bring the smallest amount of troops necessary to get the job done with minimal risk. That usually means EVERYBODY fights, even the lowly spearman with medic 2 that was just there as a combination medic/chariot counter. By the time he fights there is one archer with .3 strength left, but still, he has to earn his keep. Maybe this is why I don't find drill useful. No matter what I did, the assault would have to pause after every city taken.Generally, I am more or less the same way. I do plan to go to war often, but I plan my wars to be short affairs with specific objectives. In my experience, a mix of troops and promotions is usually the best way to achieve this result, unless your opponent has homogenous defenders, and weak defensive positions. (A kingdom with nothing but archers, and no hill cities can easily be killed by C1/cover axes, and nothing else) And yes...all the troops are there to fight. Cover and flanking troops are just for specific parts of the battle where combat promoted troops are likely to die or be severely wounded.

@Izmir: I am not encountering catapults with gunships, it is just an example. Why shouldn't gunships not be able to hurt catapults/trebuchets with flanking but knights can? Ok, I just found out that at least cavalry etc.. now can hit the old stuff too but that was changed 2 patches back. Never noticed it though.

@Windsor: I thought that flank attacks only works when you retreat so flanking I and II increasing the chance to deal that damage. If this is changed then I stand corrected.

One thing I'm still not sure about is the usefulness of Drill when outclassed. The odds of winning will be worse than those of Combat units... but what about expected damage dealt to the opponent?

I THINK Drill units will have better chances to damage the opponent when odds are bad, so in a stack battle you'd want to use Drill units to pave the way -> Combat units to fight mostly fair fights -> Drill units to clean up.
I have no idea how to get the threshold when we should cease using Drill units on suicide missions from the info the game gives us though.

Could some maths guru shed a little light on that? It would be greatly appreciated.

Somebody already has done that math. It should be somewhere in a post in the strategy discussion. It shows that drill is better against low str units and that combat is better against equal or higher str units.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/combat_explained.php

In this article (all the way down to the bottom) there is a chapter that explains when drill is better then combat.

Thanks for the link, but I knew that - very good - article already.

Knowing when Drill is better than Combat for survival odds isn't the problem - the graph on the bottom is good for healthy units, and even if wounded opponents are involved the game will readily tell you.

The part I'm interested in is very unfavourable fights, likelihood to damage the opponent and expected damage. I know Drill units will have even worse survival odds than Combat units in those situations... I'm wondering if they are still worth using; they might be if they damage the opponent more reliably and therefore give subsequent attackers better odds.

obsolete was correct- "Drill" as "Armour"

programmers gave drill to certain units of protective civs

indicating a defensive promotion that competes with city garrison, and guerilla
(why wouldn't archers be able to have woodsman- i thought archers were kind of woodsman like)

and herein lies the answer- Drill- the defensive promotion for units in the field

if one has no need for a defensive promotion for units in the field then i could see it being less than optimal

for the Tal like offensive attack players or stonewall jackson -the evidence is clear- it is the superior

the evidence is not clear

:eek:

one important difference - Drill is better against siege units and war elephants

as the geatest Drill promotion utilizer of all time i suggest the Drill line for protective leaders over
Combat- and later, Formation/Cover over other alternatives.

I'm not a user of either as a rule.

I generally don't build armies of mounted units--HA come at the wrong time IMHO, if I have to chariot rush normally the key battle is for the capital. Combat 1 units do more damage, and an extra 10% to survive is just not worth it.

It's true that flanking2 mounteds can do damage to seige but to actually kill them you need a lot of them--if you have that many units you're probably better off letting the AI crash against your city.

Drill--what's the big deal about avoiding a little damage? At that point you surely have a medic so it's not a big deal (and other units need to heal anyway). And the AI will have a lot of units that are immune.

I'm not a user of either as a rule.

Neither was I, but I'm going to give flanking another try on mounted units other than chariots and Knights means I'm not going to be trying it for a while because those are my two most commonly used mounted units.

It's true that flanking2 mounteds can do damage to seige but to actually kill them you need a lot of them--if you have that many units you're probably better off letting the AI crash against your city.

It is also true that any mounted unit that wins combat gets to do flanking damage as well, a fact a few responders seem to be missing. So yes, the flanking promotion might increase the odds of doing flanking damage, but so do combat promotions, if not by as much.

Drill--what's the big deal about avoiding a little damage? At that point you surely have a medic so it's not a big deal (and other units need to heal anyway). And the AI will have a lot of units that are immune.

That's what I'm saying. If I could make it so my artillery wasn't taking any damage either I may be interested in this prospect, but I can't so I'm not. It seems that city defenders might benefit from it if faced with a stack of cats and mop up units, but again, there appear to be much better ways to deal with that than an otherwise sub-optimal promotion choice.

What complicates all of this is the fact that though flanking or drill may be the best choice right now, the decision is permanent so I need to think of what is in the long term interests of the unit, assuming he has a chance of long term survivability (i.e. not a swordsman in a war vs. a rival with feudalism). Saving promotions until the last second helps a bit, but promotions usefulness for speeding healing usually means all promotions are spent soon after a war begins.

Drill--what's the big deal about avoiding a little damage? At that point you surely have a medic so it's not a big deal (and other units need to heal anyway).

It's a big deal when you are out-numbered. Medics only heal once per turn, not per battle.

It's a big deal when you are out-numbered. Medics only heal once per turn, not per battle.

I put that I sometimes use it, but I would rate it a lot higher if the AI didn't spam the hell out of FS immune stuff for 3/4 of the game :mad:.

@Windsor: I thought that flank attacks only works when you retreat so flanking I and II increasing the chance to deal that damage. If this is changed then I stand corrected.


"Flank" attacks will damage siege whenever the attacker survives combat, either by winning or by retreating. *


* assuming the attacker is capable of doing "flanking damage"

On siege against small stacks in the field and on machine guns (which is quite useful as it ignores colleteral from siege weapons, which any player worth his salt will use defensivly (AI won't)) drill is useful. It can also be pretty good on oromo warriors or if you are defending in heavily defensive terrain (fortified cities and forest hills) against non-mounted units. Also when fighting against heavily wounded units (from collerteral) drill is likely better than combat, but if you are fighting against heavily wounded units, what promos you take doesn't matter that much...

Flanking is great on cavalery and HA's (even though all of them certainly shouldn't get flanking, you'll see how many needs it when you do the assult). The second promotion is soo much better than the 1st one that it isn't funny (for cavalery 30->40 is ~14% chance less of dying while 40->60 is 33.33% less chance of dying or about 2.4 times better for the second promo). Flanking is also useful on knights and currasairs, especially when fighting against siege weapons. Chariots doesn't benefit a whole lot from this promotion though. The flanking 2 promotion also makes your unit immune to first strikes. Most mounted units are immune to first strikes already but it is nice for cavalery when fighting protective longbows or capratches. This fact also makes the drill line worse than it otherwise would be.

but if you are fighting against heavily wounded units, what promos you take doesn't matter that much...

Blitz does.

In other time, it may matter. If you're outteched and trying to kill rifleman with samurai, you may have to look at what's best.

(I will not say that drill is best in this particular case because truly I don't know)
Chariots doesn't benefit a whole lot from this promotion though. The flanking 2 promotion also makes your unit immune to first strikes. Most mounted units are immune to first strikes already but it is nice for cavalery when fighting protective longbows or capratches. This fact also makes the drill line worse than it otherwise would be.

The only reason for wich Chariot would not benefit from it would be because in my opinion you want to destroy a lot of them. But otherwise, survival edge is better for me than combat if you're weaker than your opponent, and it's likely that chariot will be weaker.

I tend to think that the first strike immunity is more something that avoid drill to be too powerful rather than a drill problem. Just think to make different unit to defend against cavalry and to defend against other thing : combat / formation pikeman/rifleman/SAMs and regular CG or drill archery/gunpowder unit.

I like Drill.

On defensive terrain, it greatly increases your chances of surviving fights undamaged... useful if a handful of Rifles need to hold off 100 Jaguar Warriors. Combat units would be overwhelmed eventually.

On the offense, Drill is particularly strong against wounded units - against units decimated by collateral damage, Drill IV Oromos sometimes beat Riflemen with either 2 combat or 2 drill promotions (even if the Oromo's first strike immunity is a non-factor).
Personally, I like to throw siege at the defenders until they are at the collateral damage limit and spare my cleanup troops for a very simple reason:
Reguar units too damaged to fight need to heal to become useful again. Siege units too damaged to fight can still speed up a war by bombardment.

My main problem with Drill is that it renders counter promotions against units without first strike immunity useless - the best defender code values first strikes too highly.

*

In mostly even fights, combat or counter promotions do better... but really, why should one fight fair?

Fact- Chariot-Flanking- equalize first strike

Fact- Flanking to Sentry for field of vision

Fact- The time of the chariot is limited

Fact- Archers/Chariots Spear/Horse

this is the superior

Fact- Chariot-Flanking- equalize first strike

Fact- Flanking to Sentry for field of vision

Fact- The time of the chariot is limited

Fact- Archers/Chariots Spear/Horse

this is the superior

Fact - I don't understand what you are trying to say, especially the third fact.

Can you explain a little more please ?

Fact- 3 main enemy strengths- early chariots, siege, war elephants

Fact- Drill works against all three

the evidence is clear

Thank for the explanation.

Flanking knights are pretty good at wasting trebs in the field, curis even better. Flanking off the siege and hiding with some CG or D troops behind a hill castle is idioticly more efficient than using C mounted for defense. In many cases I find it to be more :hammers: efficient than either killing the stack with my own siege or getting more defenders into the city.

On a rush (mostly HA) flanking works reasonably well damaging the top defender and getting me an AI cap on turn 2 or 3 of the war at low losses.

Lastly, let's not forget sentry. Knowledge is power, and nothing gives you reliable scouting like a sentry until zepps (yes spies work better, and GSp are immortal but the normal ones get caught, overbuilding is very hammer inefficient, and keeping a GP just for scouting seems a bit harsh).

Drill is insanely good. Of late I've been playing around with a late game rifle/arty/fighters combo. Drill on everything except the fighters works out rather well and utterly curb stomping AIs who lack Fighters and mass SAMinf thanks to spy burning oil fields. I've even begun using drill siege when I start getting a good air power engine going.

It's a big deal when you are out-numbered. Medics only heal once per turn, not per battle.
yes if you're playing deity or high level AW and get swarmed then of course you need super units with drill. But that's the exception.

I'm a bit late to the party but given I'm the drill defender, my input here is necessary. :)

Drill is strong in special situations.

Drill units attacking injured defenders. Drill III longbows might not quite be as good as CR3 maces but when you use them after siege they can do quite well.
Drill units tend to earn xp a little bit faster than other units that fight odds at equivalent odds. This is because first strikes (i.e. more first strikes) do not decrease the xp you can expect from combat.
Protective civs. Seriously, the drill line is barely worth touching without a Protective leader, or Zara for obvious reasons.;)
Sometimes useful for siege attacker/s if you really want to be a tiny bit more likely to damage the strongest defender. Drill 1 instead of CR1 means your cat is more likely to die but it's also more likely to damage that strongest longbow. :) Generally speaking drill doesn't work well on siege though because they can only withdraw with 1xp all the time.
Drill IV is where it's at. It's rarely worth investing too much intro drill units unless they have a reasonable chance of reaching drill IV.
Milking for GG points. You can earn around two times more xp in post-siege mop up if you use drill troops instead of CR troops. Mainly useful for PRO civs.


Disadvantages of drill:

Weak against most mounted units. This is ok if you can ensure you always have spears or pikes mixed in (something that most PRO haters tend to ignore). Also, with drill attackers, at least mounted units defending don't get defensive bonuses.
Injured drill units are unfortunately still valued quite highly as defenders. As such, highly promoted drill units sometimes defend at very bad odds when better non-drill units are available. While they're at full health they can be very strong defenders obviously.
Drill I itself is probably the weakest promotion in the game. I suspect a lot of the disappointment in drill comes from first impressions when people try Drill I. It compares very poorly to C1. On the other hand, the later drill promotions like Drill IV are arguably better than a single combat promotion.
Strangely, there are some promotions like March that are open to the combat line but not the drill line. This is a big thing for especially gunpowder units.


Generally speaking the benefits of drill are much more subtle than with combat promos and often never seen because people hate PRO civs with such a passion.

Combat promotions are pretty much the easiest promotion to use in the game, because their effect is pretty much the same whatever type of combat you use. Using drill troops properly requires more micro (read: tactics :p) so if you're lazy you probably won't find much use for drill.

Remember that with PRO civs you get 3-6 (average 4.5) first strikes with just 3 promotions (and the free one). Don't make all your units drill - that would be like making every city a cottage spammer. Specialise your units with the same care you give to specialising cities and you might start to appreciate their uses a bit more. Also, learn what thresholds for modified combat strengths give each number of xp. With even just a couple of first strikes, it can be quite easy to regularly take 3xp per battle even at very favourable odds if the defender is at least a bit injured to start with (e.g. post siege attacks).

For the reccord, Drill does not modify any attack values at all. The reason the combat odds (seem to) increase with Drill is because your armour lets you last longer, which means more chance to get extra HITS IN when things go bad.

= Higher winning rate over all.

This is very misleading IMO. Technically drill lets you last longer because in the first few rounds of combat (depending how many first strikes you have) you are allowed to dodge any strikes that would have ordinarily been landed on you. Call it armour if you will but really you're just obfuscating the concept.

So the reason your odds are a bit better when you increase your number of first strikes is because you're decreasing the amount of damage you are likely to take in the first few rounds of combat.