GOVERNMENT

Despotism
Tyranny
Democracy
Republic
Imperium

LEGAL

Barbarism
Vassalage
Bureaucracy
Nationhood
Free Speech

LABOR

Tribalism
Slavery
Serfdom
Caste System
Emancipation

ECONOMY

?

RELIGION

?

EXPANSION

Subjugation
Satrapy
Resettlement
City-State
League
Occupation
Commonwealth

Government:

This is the easiest one. I think we might want to change the name of Despotism to, perhaps, God-King or something of the sort. Oligarchy, as I mentioned in the tech thread, is another option. But other than Sparta, I'm not sure which civs used an Oligarchy.

Legal:

We've got a lot of room here. Perhaps this is best merged with Expansion (see that one for a description of how I think we could go

Labor:

I'm not sure Caste System or Serfdom are good names for what existed in the ancient world, and Emancipation definitely isn't. Most likely, we need several variations on slavery. Alternately, we can probably dispense with this one or merge it with another, particularly Expansion.

Economy:

Every option in normal RFC is way, way, way past the scope of this mod. This one is carte blanche.

Religion:

I think this discussion should primarily take place in the Religion thread.

Expansion:

This is arguably the most interesting setting. Viceroyalty existed, but is perhaps better listed as Satrapy. Resettlement still works (particularly for the Phoenicians, Carthaginians, and perhaps Celts and Athenians) though I might change the term to Colonization.

Another necessary option is the League. This is a collection of city-states under the control of a leader, like the Delian League of Athens. This could also be a Legal option. If that were the case, then City-State would be another option, which gives a stability for fewer cities (perhaps similarly to the Commonwealth)

Some ideas could be borrowed from the Classical Antiquity Mod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=9942).

I think city-state should be the first in the Expansion civics, giving bonuses like bureaucracy (maybe weaker tho), but each city should give negative instability (colonies however should not, since Athens had many colonies and is still regarded as a city-state).
Legal could perhaps be replaced with a "military" civic category, there could be one civic that allows nationhood-like recruiting (forgot the name), one which makes military units act like workers and settlers (food helps them building faster), one which acts like vassalage, and one which acts like pacifism. The names for them could be thought about once we agree which features we want for them.

Here are screenshots of the civics used in the Classical Antiquity Mod. Note that the font is the same one as in regular Civ 4, so :commerce: means :gold: in reality.

Government:

This is the easiest one. I think we might want to change the name of Despotism to, perhaps, God-King or something of the sort. Oligarchy, as I mentioned in the tech thread, is another option. But other than Sparta, I'm not sure which civs used an Oligarchy.

IMHO, the Roman Republic was an oligarchic gov., was it not ?
Btw what is the difference between Tyranny and Despotism ? It seems to thin to justify two options.

Another necessary option is the League. This is a collection of city-states under the control of a leader, like the Delian League of Athens. This could also be a Legal option. If that were the case, then City-State would be another option, which gives a stability for fewer cities (perhaps similarly to the Commonwealth)

I like that finally City States isn't proposed as a gov. option. However I think it should give a stability penalty, not bonus, as evident from Greek history. It should give high maintenance relief for number and distance of cities and cost nothing as a civic.

i have find that and i think that can be interesting

http://biu-cujas.univ-paris1.fr/principal/guide/HistoireDroit/Hist-RomAnt.htm
http://www.stoa.org/projects/demos/article_law_glossary?page=all&greekEncoding=UnicodeC

IMHO, the Roman Republic was an oligarchic gov., was it not ?
Btw what is the difference between Tyranny and Despotism ? It seems to thin to justify two options.


In my opinion, perhaps Despotism should have a name change, perhaps to God-King or something of the sort. Historically, Tyrants or dictators or even perhaps kings existed within a kind of social contract: it wasn't simply the strongest man or the previous king's son, but a choice made by the populace to pick the best leader.

Older and more eastern civs, on the other hand, tended to have a man in charge who was considered to be a god on earth, and derived their authority from religious sources. This caused tension when western leaders conquered eastern lands - both Alexander and Mark Antony were suspected of going soft when they took upon some of the trappings of eastern God-Kings.


@Cethegus - I like some of those. The Economic options seem interesting, and the Religion options seem quite useful.

In my opinion, perhaps Despotism should have a name change, perhaps to God-King or something of the sort. Historically, Tyrants or dictators or even perhaps kings existed within a kind of social contract: it wasn't simply the strongest man or the previous king's son, but a choice made by the populace to pick the best leader.

Older and more eastern civs, on the other hand, tended to have a man in charge who was considered to be a god on earth, and derived their authority from religious sources. This caused tension when western leaders conquered eastern lands - both Alexander and Mark Antony were suspected of going soft when they took upon some of the trappings of eastern God-Kings.


@Cethegus - I like some of those. The Economic options seem interesting, and the Religion options seem quite useful.

I agree Tyranny/Despostism/HR is too redundant.

I'm loving "God King!" :goodjob::king: And Imperium much better than "Tyranny."

@ Classical Antiquities civics list:

For Labor: "Welfare State" wounds way too modern. I'm not sure what the historical example this would be based on in the classical world either; hard to have a "welfare state" when 90%+ of the people are working off the land.

How About:

(italics = new ideas I thought of for consideration)

Tribalism
Slavery
Seafaring People (bonuses for ocean/coast tiles, takes longer to improve land)
Scholars (state prioritizes learning and philosophy: libraries/academies earn higher science rate, greater chance for GS, longer for military units)
Cultural Diaspora (official acceptance of different cultures/religions similar to the effects of emancipation, think ancient Persia and Cyrus declaration of human rights, freeing the Jews in Babylon)

Legal sounds good. Well replace "Patriotism" (sounds too modern again) to "Imperialism"

Economy how about:

Bartering
Land Ownership
Trading State (similar to Free Market bonuses but with a classical twist)
Taxation (all cities of >5 population pay taxes of 1 gold per turn - increases unhappiness)
Colonial Federation

wow religion...this is a tough one now with the changes Rhye is making! Here are my ideas so far:

Religion

(Can't use Paganism! We're all "pagans" now :lol:)
Animism
Religious Hierarchy - Clergymen now have official role within the religion. Construct buildings faster now that mobilizing workers in central locations has become easier. Medium/High cost.
National Parades - State officially funds parades displaying greatness of nation (often with religious/spiritual imagery) increases happiness, shorter rebellion for newly conquered cities but very expensive.
Persecution - military units are given 2 free promotions now that their zeal has increased however it takes much longer for rebellion to subside to newly conquered cities -- in addition, chances of rebellion increase in these cities until at least 30 turns have passed.
Tolerance - similar to "Free Religion"

How about Timocracy or Timokratia for under legal: your personal wealth, i.e. how much you produce determines your power in decision making, probably acting as a plus for the economy...unlimited merchants. It was a big part of the Solonian Constitution of Athens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timocracy

GOVERNMENT

Despotism
Tyranny
Democracy
Republic
Imperium


Prove me wrong, but I'm not sure why there should be both a Republic and a Democracy in Ancient Times. What exactly is the difference? I think Democracy is broad enough to include both ideas. And removing Republic would enable the presence of Oligarchy, which I think is relevant.

Prove me wrong, but I'm not sure why there should be both a Republic and a Democracy in Ancient Times. What exactly is the difference? I think Democracy is broad enough to include both ideas. And removing Republic would enable the presence of Oligarchy, which I think is relevant.

I dunno about "proving you wrong" as it's a gameplay/flavor decision....

The key difference is that in a democracy, all citizens vote on everything, and in a republic, citizens vote on set representatives to lead them for a set period of time. Athens was a democracy, possibly Carthage and definitely Rome were republics, with its plethora of established positions like consul, tribune, senator, legate, etc.

Ok, that's fine. I'm still not convinced that the difference between direct and representative democracy is that significant, but I agree it's a flavour decision.

My point is: Athens is almost the only historical example of direct democracy, and it did have a lot of elected persons to do the actual work, even if key decision were (in theory) to be voted by everyone. Moreover, democracy in general was not that widespread in the Ancient world. And Oligarchy can probably describe accurately enough the Carthaginian and Roman republics.

But all of this is just a non-expert point of view, you can ignore it ;)

How about changing Republic to Oligarchy
Democracy to Greek Democracy or Classical Democracy as with slavery widespread it's pretty different than our modern notions of what a "democracy" is supposed to be.

Ok, that's fine. I'm still not convinced that the difference between direct and representative democracy is that significant, but I agree it's a flavour decision.

My point is: Athens is almost the only historical example of direct democracy, and it did have a lot of elected persons to do the actual work, even if key decision were (in theory) to be voted by everyone. Moreover, democracy in general was not that widespread in the Ancient world. And Oligarchy can probably describe accurately enough the Carthaginian and Roman republics.

But all of this is just a non-expert point of view, you can ignore it ;)

Actually I agree with this. Since Athens is really the only example of this "democracy" in the ancient world it should be fairly difficult for the player to maintain successfully, especially in war-time.

I'm actually thinking the best one to get rid of would be Imperium. Not because having an empire isn't important, but because it could be done through having a government Tyranny, an expansion Empire, and an appropriate legal civic.

I'm actually thinking the best one to get rid of would be Imperium. Not because having an empire isn't important, but because it could be done through having a government Tyranny, an expansion Empire, and an appropriate legal civic.

I agree with this.

A republic exists to protect the people. Democracy on the other hand exists to serve the people. Think of the governmental differences between USA and European societies.

EDIT: I don't know for how long I had left my browser open without sending the message first.