Hi,

I'm back to my 1071 CE mod, and want to adequately reflect the technological disparities between Old World & New.

What I've hit upon so far is a separate Era 1 for the New World Civs ("NWCs") with one tech - their first - essentially taking up the equivalent of an entire Old World Era. They are all non-Player Civs.

The NWCs are Cahokia, Anasazi, Aztec, Mayan, Incan. Except for the Incan, each begin with one settler/city. Although many didn't exist in 1071, their precursors did, so the "fake era" basically just lets them expand and maybe bump into each other.

I've been toying with ideas for their post ~1500 CE technological development, but have hit some stumbling blocks:

(1) Without Old World Contact, how would these Civs have progressed? - the Wheel? Firearms?

(2) Do I just presume a "drop-dead" date (say, 1550 CE) in which Old World contact is presumed to have occured (by individual traders; shipwrecked Treasure Fleet ships) and allow a more "European" style of development? Do I go the "Canada Mod" route and have Mustang and Firearm resources arbitrarily appear?

Tricks already in place: pre-"Contact" NWC units are all -1HP to represent (however minorly) the impact of Old World disease. NWC Civs are uniquely allowed to build Aqueducts, and their Settlers cost 3 Pop points. Advantages: early Cahokian (Mississippi Valley Civ, historically extinct ca. 1400 CE) units are mostly Invisible and ignore Forest movement cost. Also (given the 500 year time lag and some knowledge of Old World Techs) the equivalent post-Old-World-contact NWC Civ units are superior to their Old World counterparts - both because it's 500 years later & to give them a fighting chance.

Thoughts? Help? Please?

Best As Always,

Oz

Hi Oz, in my eyes nobody can safely state, how the New world would have developed without contact to the "old world". I think there always was an exchange and that´s why in CCM I integrated the influence of the "old world" in the techtree of era 2 and gave it a direction where the AI can decide, if the mesoamerican civs should change to christianity or stay at bloodcult. This influences culture and happiness but they can build new weapons as it was possible in reality.

I think in the game these civs will have contact to civs of the "old world" (including Asia), too.

I'll play Devil's Advocate (the only job I ever wanted at the Vatican ;) ) - why just Blood Cult or Christianity? What if Moors or Polynesians show up first? :confused:

Best,

Oz

I'll play Devil's Advocate (the only job I ever wanted at the Vatican ;) ) - why just Blood Cult or Christianity? What if Moors or Polynesians show up first? :confused:

Best,

Oz

On a fixed map a lot of these effects can be influenced by strat./lux resources. For random maps I mostly operated with buildings and this means the influence is limited.

NWC are also a problem to me in my mod, especially with random map.

How to limit the building of cavalry units? If cavalry requires horse, and none is available in "America", then the US will not be able to build cavalry later one.

If I make horse available everywhere, then why the Aztec can't build horse in the first era when the European civ discover it?

The problem is there is no way to give European a tech to discover this tech, and give it to the Aztec later. Except if you use two different horse resource, one that Europe can get in the ancient era, and one that both European and NCW can get in the second age.

However, I find it a bit strange.

So I'll try another approach with the next version of my editor and my concept of rule changes with each era via saved game modification.

Europe has tech "ancient horse", it gives the horse.
NCW cannot find this tech "non era".

Then, in third era, there is a "industrial horse". It also gives horse. The Aztec can discover it, to get horse later in game. The European would automatically start the third era with this tech, and the 1st era "ancient horse" would disappear.

NWC are also a problem to me in my mod, especially with random map.

How to limit the building of cavalry units? If cavalry requires horse, and none is available in "America", then the US will not be able to build cavalry later one.

If I make horse available everywhere, then why the Aztec can't build horse in the first era when the European civ discover it?

The problem is there is no way to give European a tech to discover this tech, and give it to the Aztec later. Except if you use two different horse resource, one that Europe can get in the ancient era, and one that both European and NCW can get in the second age.

However, I find it a bit strange.

So I'll try another approach with the next version of my editor and my concept of rule changes with each era via saved game modification.

Europe has tech "ancient horse", it gives the horse.
NCW cannot find this tech "non era".

Then, in third era, there is a "industrial horse". It also gives horse. The Aztec can discover it, to get horse later in game. The European would automatically start the third era with this tech, and the 1st era "ancient horse" would disappear.

I like your idea a lot and look forward to its implementation :)

ATM, I'm probably stuck with the approach the Canada mod takes with "Horses" and "Mustangs". However, I see several problems with this approach, at least for my purposes: (1) a date of Old World contact must be assumed (although I suppose an argument can be made that this was an inevitability by, oh, 1550-1600 CE, unless Zheng He's Treasure Fleet washed up in MesoAmerica first) and (2) the presumed "Old World Contact" trigger would (unless I wanted to rip my hair out dealing with, say, four essentially identical Horse resources) require "Mustangs" to simultaneously appear everywhere from Nova Scotia to Patagonia; not good, but probably the best I can hope for ... *sigh*

Best,

Oz

The NWCs are Cahokia, Anasazi, Aztec, Mayan, Incan. Except for the Incan, each begin with one settler/city. Although many didn't exist in 1071, their precursors did, so the "fake era" basically just lets them expand and maybe bump into each other.

I've been toying with ideas for their post ~1500 CE technological development, but have hit some stumbling blocks:

(1) Without Old World Contact, how would these Civs have progressed? - the Wheel? Firearms?

Trying to guesstimate, even based on proven datums about specific points of a civilization or culture's progress is very hit and miss, even at the best of times. For example, most of the Andean and Mesoamerican cultures did in fact have the Wheel, however, they only used them for children's toys, small trinkets and such. No one in these areas thought to somehow hitch a wheeled platform to an animal such as had been done in Afro-Eurasia for thousands of years. While this may seem rather simple and obvious to us now, to them it was a major hurdle, arguably simply because there was no animal to do the work. While it could be argued that the Inca might have eventually put the wheel together with a llama or an alpaca.. again, the hit and miss :sad: Especially when you consider that while the Inca Empire did have the most impressive road system of the New World - it was all up and down very steep hills, almost sheer drop offs really. The Spanish conquistadors had a hell of a time getting their horses to go, and often times had to beat a path off of the Inca roads simply because the horses couldn't handle it. So obviously, not an environment very inclusive to the wheel as used for Chariots, at least in the way that Afro-Eurasia did/does.

I'd suggest doing some anthropological readings on the history of the 'New World,' why and what exactly happened when the Old and New worlds came in contact, and possible scenarios of the New World's progress with a later Old World contact - or even a 'smaller' contact in which Columbus and perhaps a few others are able to make initial contacts (spreading diseases and perhaps a few invasive species such as pigs, chickens, rabbits, etc) but the Royal governments of Europe don't view the enterprise as financially sound and don't give further backing, slowing the rate of contact (and presumably allowing the New World to adapt to the new technologies and species being introduced).

TETurkhan had a horse resource that appeared in the New World once Navigation was researched, so that would be one way of handling it. Create a Mustang resource in the New World that appears with Navigation, and set that for New World cavalry units.

As for other techs, none of the New World civs had any knowledge of metal smelting, although they did understand metal casting. They were not really good seamen, large dugouts canoes and rafts seemed to be their limit, although good agriculturalists. Overall, lack of knowledge of metallurgy would put them severely behind in the military area, especially with gunpowder and cannon. If I remember correctly, they also did not have anything like a windmill or a water wheel, so they would be very limited as to mechanical knowledge. Put bluntly, the New World civilizations were not that very advanced at all.

As for other techs, none of the New World civs had any knowledge of metal smelting, although they did understand metal casting. They were not really good seamen, large dugouts canoes and rafts seemed to be their limit, although good agriculturalists. Overall, lack of knowledge of metallurgy would put them severely behind in the military area, especially with gunpowder and cannon. If I remember correctly, they also did not have anything like a windmill or a water wheel, so they would be very limited as to mechanical knowledge. Put bluntly, the New World civilizations were not that very advanced at all.

Yep, all my fears rolled into one :goodjob: I've actually been wondering if some plant might have substituted, at some time, for bamboo-Chinese-style weapons, but can't think of any.

I figured, on their separate Era1 Tech Tree, that I'd have to place the Wheel, various maritime and engineering techs - essentially starting them at the beginning of an Epoch game with the Old World equivalent ~1-1/2 Eras ahead.

The question then becomes, Is it worth it? By the time European contact occured, there'd be a lovely, pastoral, mid-North American Civ; maybe an enclave in the euivalent of the extreme SW of the r/w US; Mayans and Aztecs would probably have bludgeoned one another into a wretched state; and the Inca ... I can't even really speculate.

- In short, after my initial NWC "filler" Tech, I'd go along with something akin to a game starting in 4000 BCE - well, except there'd already be Temples, Ball Courts and whatnot. Units are a different matter - really no real room for expansion - Timerover's point about metal is even more severe than the technology involved: I don't know where/if there'd be enough copper and tin to have a Bronze Age (and highly refined obsidian weapons might prove better anyway) and access to iron is likewise severely limited.

... well, this should be interesting ... :crazyeye:

Thanks All,

Oz

Bolivia is one of the leading tin sources in the world, and Chile has plenty of copper, so materials were not lacking. Knowledge was. Iron is there as well. Given that the materials were there, I would be hard pressed to give them anything beyond what they had.

You should ready Technology in the Ancient World for an understanding of how ancient technology developed. Oxford or Cambridge also did a series on Ancient Technology that is a useful read. The Andes was short good ship building timber, but the Mayans had access to excellent mahogany. And the Pacific Northwest tribes had all the timber you could want, the trouble there was cutting down the trees. They never got beyond big dugout canoes, not even catamarans.

Bolivia is one of the leading tin sources in the world, and Chile has plenty of copper, so materials were not lacking. Knowledge was. Iron is there as well. Given that the materials were there, I would be hard pressed to give them anything beyond what they had.

You should ready Technology in the Ancient World for an understanding of how ancient technology developed. Oxford or Cambridge also did a series on Ancient Technology that is a useful read. The Andes was short good ship building timber, but the Mayans had access to excellent mahogany. And the Pacific Northwest tribes had all the timber you could want, the trouble there was cutting down the trees. They never got beyond big dugout canoes, not even catamarans.

So it sounds as though my best bet is to have a point of "Old World Contact" after which the NWCs can "research" what in the real world would be technology transfer - wheel, iron smelting, etc. This might actually play much better than I hoped - the cost for these presumably acquired technologies would (should) be far cheaper than researching from scratch, and just might let them catch up enough to put up a fight, be spoilers between competing colonial entities, etc.

And thanks for the recommendation on the Ancient Tech books!

Best,

Oz

So it sounds as though my best bet is to have a point of "Old World Contact" after which the NWCs can "research" what in the real world would be technology transfer - wheel, iron smelting, etc. This might actually play much better than I hoped - the cost for these presumably acquired technologies would (should) be far cheaper than researching from scratch, and just might let them catch up enough to put up a fight, be spoilers between competing colonial entities, etc.

And thanks for the recommendation on the Ancient Tech books!

Best,

Oz

I provided assistance only because as a both a game designer and professional researcher, to say nothing of being a student of the development of technology, I hate to see someone doing something with an inadequate information base. Otherwise, I would not give you the time of day.

My personal view is that the New World civilizations do not belong in the game. I use them mainly for target practice in testing my changes to military combat values.

Bolivia is one of the leading tin sources in the world, and Chile has plenty of copper, so materials were not lacking. Knowledge was. Iron is there as well. Given that the materials were there, I would be hard pressed to give them anything beyond what they had.

You should ready Technology in the Ancient World for an understanding of how ancient technology developed. Oxford or Cambridge also did a series on Ancient Technology that is a useful read. The Andes was short good ship building timber, but the Mayans had access to excellent mahogany. And the Pacific Northwest tribes had all the timber you could want, the trouble there was cutting down the trees. They never got beyond big dugout canoes, not even catamarans.

Its more than the lack of knowledge; you see the same ideas popping up all over the world as long as the possibilities are there, and once a technology is introduced to an area where it was previously lacking, it takes off like wild fire (firearms and horses in the Americas, agriculture & ranching in sub-tropical Africa and Australia, etc). Like I pointed out earlier, many of the cultures of the area already had the Wheel for example, but simply didn't, or couldn't, use it the same way that Afro-Eurasia had been for thousands and thousands of years.

Simply put, the Americas don't have the same biological set-up. There were only five animals domesticated in the Pre-Contact New World; the dog, which of course had been domesticated long before humans had even traveled to the Americas, the Turkey in Mesoamerica, and the Alpaca, Llama, and Guinea Pig in the Andeas; none of which are suitable as draft animals. Try imaging a Fertile Crescent, the Nile River, Indus Valley, or the Yellow River without cattle, horses, pigs, goats, etc etc etc.

Not only are effective draft animals important for agriculture, they're also the most important part of a centralized and yet expansive civilization. Just try imaging having any kind of centralized, controlled governmental structure of hierarchy before an Industrial Revolution without any kind of transport animal or mount; no way to travel vast distances rapidly asides from one's own feet. Which is why the few 'empires' the New World had (Aztecs, Inca) were actually more like alliances, or confederations of closely related cultures that blend into a new culture.

Thirdly, without an animal to use for a mount or draft, there's nothing one can use for military expansion asides from men; there are no horses or camels or elephants one can simply climb up on and suddenly be twice as tall as the enemy, and weigh nearly five times as much.

Most importantly though, without draft animals or mounts, human cultures aren't able to spread diseases from one cluster of civilization to another all across the continent(s), thusly making said human populations much more prone to the spread disease, and death.

I give a very poor summation of this point. I would highly suggest reading Guns, Germs and Steel, and perhaps Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed as well, for more on this topic.

NWC are also a problem to me in my mod, especially with random map.

How to limit the building of cavalry units? If cavalry requires horse, and none is available in "America", then the US will not be able to build cavalry later one.

If I make horse available everywhere, then why the Aztec can't build horse in the first era when the European civ discover it?

The problem is there is no way to give European a tech to discover this tech, and give it to the Aztec later. Except if you use two different horse resource, one that Europe can get in the ancient era, and one that both European and NCW can get in the second age.

Although flavors don't completely solve the problem, since different horse resources would still be required, it would help the AI into researching the correct techs. So if there is an ancient cavalry tech, you could make it a flavor not-required to advance tech so certain civs will research it, and certain ones will not. Then later on, the Aztec could be able to research a flavor tech (and European civs will not). But another horse resource would be needed, and in an Epic game, if that resource doesn't appear in Aztec territory, that would be strange indeed... (Europeans trading Aztez Horses to the Aztecs :crazyeye:).

Tom

@timerover51 - :eek: Wow! If I owe you an apology for anything, consider it offered! And I do thank you for genuinely adding to my own not-inconsiderable info base.

@wolf_brother - I'm a big fan of both books you site; indeed, having read them (in part) led to my appreciation of my dilemna. My greatest question mark actually remains the Cahokians: they suffered from all the lack of the rest, except that they were situated at the headwaters of the Mississippi which (drawing upon the ancient Egyptian example) might have led to something interesting.

@tom2050 - :lol: Europeans trading Aztec horses to Aztecs sounds like a Marx Brothers take on how the real world tends to play out anyway!

Gentlemen, my problem is at once simple and vast. Essentially, (1) do I take timerover's approach and leave the New World empty, it's inhabitants effectively meaningless to the greater course of history? (2) do I include them at least as a "speed bump" so that the first Civ there doesn't overrun the whole shebang? or (3) do I try to let them develop to an inferior technological point viz. the Old World, but give them some chance of staying power, either as "guerillas" or hoping they don't get overrun because of the vagaries of the AI? (And, if they survive long enough, might I use a "Great Library" type Wonder to let them truly catch up?)

Thanks & Best To All,

Oz

I'd include them as option (3). You never know, someone may want to play the scenario as one of these New World civs and see if they can actually stave off the Afro-Eurasians.


EDIT: Although option (1) does allow for more old world civs, which is always a bonus...

I would highly suggest reading Guns, Germs and Steel, and perhaps Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed as well, for more on this topic.

Collapse was a great book. Extremely thought-provoking.

@Oz: I've been watching this thread with great interest, and I tend to think that the New World should not be left empty with a bunch of barbarians, and I have always liked the idea (and practice :p)of coming upon a huge continent with Spearman as their greatest defender when you have Cavalry. My vote goes for the speed-bump and accidental survival for the New World civs.

I'm for from being there in History, but I think having very different civ can be a challenge.

For instance, I plan to have America with only Natives units in the first era and half the second one, with small units, highly mobile but weak, a real challenge when faced with heavily armored European cavalry. But later one, if America survives, they will have the most powerfull units of the modern era.

And there is also the possibility of advance start in a more recent era has options.

In-between option 2 and 3 (option 2.5 :)) sounds the most interesting to me. In the game, this might cause a tremendous surge of AI units to pour into the new world, because since the AI determines it strength on unit values, all AI's will see them as inferior and try to pick fights with them (the race to colonize the new world). So it may cause an interesting unintended side-effect.

And if they can't be conquered soon enough, then (with your mentioned Great Library wonder) they will go from using Spears sitting under a campfire with Antelope in the meadows behind them, to waking up the next morning in a massive metropolis drinking fine wine and sporting nice gunpowder weapons :).

Tom

For what it is worth ,, what I did was create a feeder tech to horses, iron, and a lot of the other techs that had a significant cost to it. This to my narrow view represented a world view change in 'say' stagnant cultures. European and other cultures start with it, American and like do not. The result in game was that Europe/Asia would normally be in 2nd age getting gunpowder etc and the handicap'd culture/s would still be researching or just getting past this. Is not the best but it meet my requirement to have native civilization's ripe for conquest by gun totting empire building nations.

In-between option 2 and 3 (option 2.5 :)) sounds the most interesting to me. In the game, this might cause a tremendous surge of AI units to pour into the new world, because since the AI determines it strength on unit values, all AI's will see them as inferior and try to pick fights with them (the race to colonize the new world). So it may cause an interesting unintended side-effect.

And if they can't be conquered soon enough, then (with your mentioned Great Library wonder) they will go from using Spears sitting under a campfire with Antelope in the meadows behind them, to waking up the next morning in a massive metropolis drinking fine wine and sporting nice gunpowder weapons :).

Oz, tom's option 2.5 would seem to be best, based upon what you had asked about in the first place. It seems you obviously want to include the New World civs, but don't want them to be totally backward, and yet also don't want them on par with the Old World. Keep them one age behind, but give them the ability to grow once past a certain 'contact' trigger like any other civ.

Perhaps, in addition to the great lib, there could also be several (2-4) other 'uber-wonders' available only to the NWC that would help boost their infrastructure (barracks, walls, temples all across continent; halves unit upgrade cost, pays maintenance, city growth causes +2, treasury earns 5%, etc). These wonders would be costly and have some sort of negative side effect (unhappiness?, pollution?) in order to balance them out a bit, but would allow the NWCs to get a small jump-start on growing once they're past the 'trigger-event.'

@tom2050 & wolf_brother - :beer: "Option2.5" it is. It "feels" best, allows for client Civs, and all else I desire (and I hadn't even started to go very far down wolf_brother's list of other "catch-ups").

I thank everyone for their kind and thoughtful input!

All The Best,

Oz

Since it looks like some other people are interested in this besides the guy using the title of one of my favorite poems by Shelley, and the individual with the games ending date in his name, I will put in my Dollar and Two Cents worth. It used to be Two Cents, but that was when Gold was Twenty Dollars and change an ounce. And it could be worse, he could have chosen Keat's Ode to a Nightingale, Blake's Tyger, Tyger, or Byron's She Walks in Beauty.

If you want to keep the New World civs backward, but with the option of catching up fast, I would suggest the following:

1. For ships, give the Mayans a dugout canoe, movement 1, capacity 1, so that they can colonize the West Indies Islands. The Incas get a balsa raft, movement 1, capacity 1, so they can explore if they wish the Pacific. Both coastal only. Deselect them from all ship upgrades until steam power and transports. If you really want to keep them from spreading out too much, do not give them any ships at all.

2. Deselect all of the upgrades for their starting units up to the Industrial Era, and deselect them from any unit advancement that requires Iron, Horses, Saltpeter, or Bronze Working. Then no problems with horses appearing as a resource, since they will not be able to use them.

You could set the Old World buildings and Wonders to require a resource that was not in the New World, and then restrict what building the NW civs can build without that resource. I think that the same effect can be had by eliminating the units that they can build. Then when they reach the Industrial Age, they can build units then.

If you restrict their ability to build something, probably keeping them for any Wonder should be sufficient, at least until the Industrial Age. Not sure how well setting each city governor never to build Wonders, Small Wonders, or Science would work, since I have never tried that. I probably should check that out.

@timerover51 - Thank you. Good ideas :)

-& at least I didn't use:

"O better that her shattered hulk
Should sink beneath the waves;
Her thunders shook the mighty deep,
And there should be her grave;
Nail to the mast her holy flag,
Set ev’ry threadbare sail,
And give her to the god of storms,
The lightning and the gale!"

;) ,

Oz

It is a poem about probably the finest sailing frigate ever built, with a war record that cannot be matched by any sailing frigate anywhere, the USS Constitution. I have been on it several times, along with HMS Victory and HMS Warrior. Have you?

Or would you rather wax lyrical over one of Wyrmshadow's creations?

It is a poem about probably the finest sailing frigate ever built, with a war record that cannot be matched by any sailing frigate anywhere, the USS Constitution. I have been on it several times, along with HMS Victory and HMS Warrior. Have you?

Yes; no; no; although I have been aboard the Vasa, which is a truly eerie experience, rather like being aboard a ghost - reason insists it should no longer exist ...

Or would you rather wax lyrical over one of Wyrmshadow's creations?

:rolleyes: Apples or oranges - your choice.

Best,

Oz