As you may know, I created the Frozen civilization included with Rise of Erebus. So I'm starting this thread for stuff related to them.

Instead of posting bugs, balance issues, or suggestions you have for the Frozen in their respective threads, please post such issues here. That way, I can easily find your posts, rather then have to dig through the Fall Further Plus bug thread and ideas thread to find them. Any problems you find probably are global in all three Frozen versions, and I would like to fix those bugs in all three versions, not just the version included in Fall Further Plus.

With the release of v1.0 of the Frozen civ, I've removed all bugfixes and changes from this post. Before reporting an issue, read the changelog in this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=334381).

Balance Issues:

If you've played them as they are in RIFE at the moment, you'll quickly realize they are extremely unbalanced.

Therefore, I recommending disabling them (use the "No Liberation" gameoption). And they're my civ.

The next, unreleased version of RIFE features the latest version of the Frozen (v1.0; available as a standalone mod for FFH 2 or FF), and is more balanced. So please consider that when complaining about how unbalanced they are.

Wintered is quite damn powerful aye. Had their WS used while I was in an all out war as the Bannor, and it made my L8 Champion with many many command promotions die against a relatively weak unit because he was only 3/5th as strong as the turn before. 20% while dispellable sounds about right. Though, I wouldn't make it a disease - maybe make the Frost Resistance promotion dispell/prevent it? It's less boring than a disease and both and more interesting harder to cure, which seems like a good thing to me.

Edit: Oh, and, when they spawn, they show on the Power graph as if they've got an immense army, whereas the only units they seemed to have were 2 8str(+ some ice damage) champions and a worker or 2. Bug, or did they send off their other units far away? Mind you, they didn't have any cities I wasn't aware of - I took down 2 cities and that was the end of him.

Perhaps the name "Winter Corrupted" or "Ice Corrupted" or even the name "Frozen Soul" suggesting that the unit is a living unit with a frozen soul doomed to become a servant of Taranis upon death, unless healed. I believe that the promotion is too over-powered as of now and should be both weakened a bit and also have a difficult but possible means to be healed.

Ideally this is my suggestion:

Rename "Wintered" -> "Frozen Soul"
- Units with Winterborn are immune
- gives units -10% strength
- gives units a 5% chance to suffer 0-25% cold damage each turn
- gives units -30% to cold damage
- can be removed with "Dispel Magic"

Finally, when FF+ eventually includes The White Hand as a religion:
- Units with White Hand religion should be immune to "Frozen Soul"
- The Frozen should gain frozen soul untits from any non-Frozen unit which dies with either
* the white hand religion
* the frozen soul promotion (no more winterborn)

Rename "Wintered" -> "Frozen Soul"
- Units with Winterborn are immune
- gives units -10% strength
- gives units a 5% chance to suffer 0-25% cold damage each turn
- gives units -30% to cold damage
- can be removed with "Dispel Magic"

"Frozen Soul" is probably a better name, given that the unit spawned is called Frozen Souls. I'll change that in the next version.

Dispel Magic is probably the best method to cure it. That will be changed in the next version as well.

The best I can do to make Winterborn immune, I think, is to make units with Winterborn loose Wintered Frozen Soul at the beginning of each turn. So the magic will still affect the unit, but it will quickly fade away. This will be added in the next version.

The cold damage is a cool idea. But I'd rather have it -20% and drop the cold damage... any other thoughts?

Did you mean change to:

Frozen Soul
- gives -10% strength
- gives -20% defense to future cold damage attacks
- can be removed with dispel magic

If so, I can live with that. :goodjob: What do you think about the future changes regarding The White Hand religion?

Did you mean change to:

Frozen Soul
- gives -10% strength
- gives -20% defense to future cold damage attacks
- can be removed with dispel magic

If so, I can live with that. :goodjob: What do you think about the future changes regarding The White Hand religion?

The White Hand changes are good, I think.

But I actually meant:

-gives -20% strength
-gives -30% defense to cold damage
-can be removed with dispel magic

But if 10 and 20 would be better then 20 and 30, I'll go with that. Maybe 15, 25?

maybe 10 (15 at most) and 30 (25 if regular is 15) would be best. That way the effect is strongest with regard to the civs it's related to, but isn't overpowering overall.

To block wintered, use <PromotionExcludes/>. Available in FF/FFPlus, will prevent wintered from being gained so long as the unit has Winterborn.

In FfH, the python might be the best bet, but there are less intensive methods in FF. ;)

To block wintered, use <PromotionExcludes/>. Available in FF/FFPlus, will prevent wintered from being gained so long as the unit has Winterborn.

In FfH, the python might be the best bet, but there are less intensive methods in FF. ;)

Alright, I'll use that method.

A request: could you rework <PrereqCivilization> in the event info file to be an array, not a string? This means that a single event can either be available to one civilization, or all civilizations (unless you use python, and then it doesn't automatically say "Requires the _____ Civilization"). And I'm sure other events would benefit from such a change- maybe one applicable only to elven civilizations, or one applicable to only lizardmen civilizations, or dwarven civilizations...

I actually thought of doing that after reading this...

-The monument-inscripting event should have an option for both Frozen and Illians (doable, but to do it right it requires letting an event have more than one prereq civ)

I'll be working on that for the next patch. Good practice anyway, and there's a bit of DLL work planned for the Animals already, as well as merging in the new FfH patch.... Shouldn't delay me too much, and I agree that it could be VERY useful for other events as well.

Do Frozen units start with winterborn? if so the <promotionexcludes> fixes a lot of problems.

Should the announcement for frozen getting a unit from your fight pop before the fight is over? Kind of defeats the purpose of having the battle animations when you know who wins at the start.

Also, it seems at times that the announcement for frozen getting a unit will go multiple times for one battle, not sure if they are correspondingly getting that many units, but it still seems disproportionate announcement wise.

On a balance note, when they start getting 61+ pop cities, they just keep getting more and more great people.

Looking at the blizzard change-log at the linked post, I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of blizzards permanently icing water/sea tiles. That would be a pain for anyone who likes to use nautical units -I suppose that discounts the AI for the time being, but overall the feature seems to just be a nuisance-.

Could cure disease remove wintered? Or might that be to easy?

Nice Civ though overall. A team-member and I -in MP- battled a mid/late game frozen civ and played whack-a-unit by losing a unit and having a frozen soul pop up in the city the other teammate was attacking; other than that brief amusement, our trek into the ice/snow lands was interesting; with all those clouds around, it was like an ascent into some crazy battle in the sky. Did make it a bit hard to see other borders though.

General Changes for Next Release:

-Frozen Palace (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8541522&postcount=393) by Deon. (Thanks!)
-See here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=331912) (most of it is just adding the blizzards stuff, which should already be in FF+ anyway). Needs updating from this thread
-Rename Wintered promotion to Frozen Soul
-Allow Dispel Magic spell to remove Wintered from affected units.
-Wintered/Frozen Soul now applies -15% strength, -25% against cold damage

Bugs Fixed for Next Release:

-Your own units turn into Frozen Souls
-Wintering does not cause Frozen or Winterborn units to gain Wintered/Frozen Soul
-Blocked Winterborn units from gaining the Wintered/Frozen Soul promotion: In Fall from Heaven 2: Removed Wintered/Frozen Soul promotion from Winterborn units every turn In Fall Further/FF+: Block Winterborn units from gaining the Wintered/Frozen Soul promotion


I think that takes care of every issue I had with them, and increasing the utility of Dispel magic. win win

Frozen Soul sounds good.

Also I think that there should be a limit on summoned frostlings. For now, they are cheap endless swarmers. I even managed to kill Acheron with them.

What I see as a Problem is that Winterborn Animals like Mammoth also spread Wintered. (At last I think it hapened to me) I also agree with the point that Winterborn sould 100% protect against wintered.

Really? I thought that only demons spread cold souls. It's a bit imbalanced (adds more power to ice than to any other damage sphere), because other fire/death/... attack types do not cause -15% str.

Just read the Winterborn description in the Civopledia of FF+ there it clearly says in Winterborn "Passes the Wintered Promotion to enemys in combat". I think thats a bad Idea becaus Winterborn is used in many difernt places.

I also think that having the frost resistance promotion should make a unit immune to "Frozen Soul." Not hard to do if the <promotionexcludes> tag works as advertised. Frost resistance should be made available to all units as a promotion given the completion of a ritual (as in complete "x" ritual and all your current units receive the promotion). That would help balance the strength of cold damage. This ritual should be fairly hammer extensive and carry at least the elementalism tech (if not a higher one) as a prereq.

oops double post.

Looking at the blizzard change-log at the linked post, I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of blizzards permanently icing water/sea tiles. That would be a pain for anyone who likes to use nautical units -I suppose that discounts the AI for the time being, but overall the feature seems to just be a nuisance-.

Actually, that part is already in FFPlus... And it's usually temporary ice.

This is the version merged into FFPlus... FF has more Temp functions, rather than just Temp Terrain.

Just read the Winterborn description in the Civopledia of FF+ there it clearly says in Winterborn "Passes the Wintered Promotion to enemys in combat". I think thats a bad Idea becaus Winterborn is used in many difernt places.

Winterborn is used for the Doviello and Illians (Although it's two separate promotions, as the Doviello version includes the capability of stealing weapons from slaughtered enemies), Polar Bears, Mammoths, and so on. Might be a good idea to give them their own racial, so the Illians don't pass the Frozen free units.

Make a check that a unit has a Winterborn AND is Frozen civilization, and it would bring no need in a new promotion.

Make a check that a unit has a Winterborn AND is Frozen civilization, and it would bring no need in a new promotion.

The issue with that, is you're then moving into applying the promotion via Python rather than xml, which is much faster. I'd prefer duplicate promotions to excessive python, especially seeing how much python FFPlus already uses. :p

I didn't check if it's in python or XML so I thought it's in Python (I usually make things there :)).
I am not confident about speed, so yeah, I'd prefer another promotion to a perfomance loss.

Just so you know... there already is a unique Frozen racial promotion I can use instead, called Ice Demon. The problem is some UUs don't have it currently. I can give it to them in the next version and also get rid of Winterborn as a Frozen promotion (the only reason they had it was to spread Wintered). In fact, Ice Demon was added much later after I had them have Winterborn.

So, changes:


Get rid of Winterborn promotion on Frozen units
Give all Frozen units Ice Demon promotion
Make Ice Demon units spread Frozen Soul/Wintered, not Winterborn


In regards to the Blizzards... I'm thinking of adding a spell to get rid of ice, now that it is much more common (with Blizzards spreading it). Maybe it will be only castable by the Arcane Barge, a water unit?

Any suggestions on that?

The only problem is could you make AI to use it? Because I could block me from enemy ships with ice/block enemy ports.
Also, I don't see AI building arcane barges.

Not sure if I could make the AI use it. I could make any unit they have that passes near an ice tile (within one plot radius) cast it to get rid of the ice tile..

You're right, Arcane Barges are probably too restrictive. Maybe Scorch or an existing spell can be made to get rid of Ice?

Why don't you want it to melt naturally without any blizzard nearby? It would be the best solution in my opinion.

Why don't you want it to melt naturally without any blizzard nearby? It would be the best solution in my opinion.

It is already set up that way... in this version. But in the FFH version of this civ, that is not the case, as no tempFeatureType function exists. So, for that, all ice stays around forever. It's not a question of "not wanting to", it's a question of "not being able to in vanilla FFH". So I was wondering if a spell to get rid of ice might be useful.

But maybe I could make blizzards only have a chance of creating ice on water in the first place? So not all plots would be covered. And of the ones that were, some would melt naturally (in the Fall Further version).

A rather interesting -and many times more complicated- solution would be to have the ice behave in an iceberg-like way. Traveling in currents, melting in warm water, growing in icy water, perhaps even a method to allow ships to pass through a lower level -partially melted?- of ice at possible risk.

Definitely not a fan of "Wintered" passing in combat... it seems the equivalent of "Withered" (a special for Wraiths and I think one of the Four Horsemen), and incurable. Maybe it needs to go on a timer (like, you're stuck with the negative promo for 10 turns) or vanish when fully healed or something... more "exotic" solutions like it being curable like a disease, dispellable via dispel magic, or having to travel to someplace like the mirror of heaven to get a tan, none of those would be very easy to encourage the AI to do.

I think with the changes made to the "Frozen Soul" promotion (as it is now called) -15% base strength is a lot less crippling (personally I would still like to see it at 10, but I'll live). Plus the beauty of a mod-able game is that you can change anything you don't like.

On a related note, how does the AI deal with Disease, Withering and Plagued. Does it understand how to heal itself? If so, how hard could it be to modify that code to teach the AI how to use dispel magic to heal "Frozen Soul"

Lastly, I think standing on the Mirror of Heaven should temporarily provide relief from "Frozen Soul". Could be done via an autoaquire promotion that overwrites "Frozen Soul" with a countdown that lasts say 20 turns after leaving the mirror before the autoaquire disappears.

We need to move the frozen code from 'OnCityAcquiredAndKept' to 'OnCityAcquired'. The first one causes OOS issues.

Can we get a game option to block the frozen from spawning ala 'compact enforced' for the mercs/demons

I think they should be added to it. Just have to block the ritual. ;)

Valkrionn: At one point (patch 0.7b I think) I moved everything except the Temple of the White Hand effect to onCityAcquired, because then when you razed a city, you froze the surrounding terrain. If you do this, do you still get an OOS? I know the reason the Infernal code failed was the religion changing (Kael posted that somewhere), so I moved the religion removal out of onCityAcquiredAndKept...

And, in either 0.7 or one of it's patches, I had the Compact Enforced gameoption also block the Frozen from spawning. It does need to be documented somewhere, though, and you can still create the ritual- but it won't do anything.


Swinkscalibur: If, in practice, 15% is still too much, I'll reduce it to 10%. I don't know if the AI can handle healing itself, but with the latest AI improvements in base FFH, it might be able to. And finally, any particular reason the Mirror of Heaven specifically should provide immunity? Not seeing any particular lore justification for it.


Brokenbone: I'm sorry you don't like the promotion passing in combat. However, it will stay that way. The only way I'm balancing it is by changing the effects of the promotion. I'm not going to implement a complicated system as you describe when I have a single line of XML (okay, a few lines of XML) that do something similar. And I'm also not going to make one of the core components of the Frozen based on something only existing in Fall Further... remember I'm trying to keep the FF and FFH versions as close as possible.

And, in general, please read the changelog in the first post before posting something you have.

Valkrionn: At one point (patch 0.7b I think) I moved everything except the Temple of the White Hand effect to onCityAcquired, because then when you razed a city, you froze the surrounding terrain. If you do this, do you still get an OOS? I know the reason the Infernal code failed was the religion changing (Kael posted that somewhere), so I moved the religion removal out of onCityAcquiredAndKept...

I had reports of them causing OOS's on taking a city, so I'm assuming so. I myself don't play multi, so it's rather hard to test. :lol:


And, in either 0.7 or one of it's patches, I had the Compact Enforced gameoption also block the Frozen from spawning. It does need to be documented somewhere, though, and you can still create the ritual- but it won't do anything.

Yeah, needs to be documented if so... And I think it should block production of the ritual as well. Not hard to add, and prevents the AI from wasting time on it.


Swinkscalibur: If, in practice, 15% is still too much, I'll reduce it to 10%. I don't know if the AI can handle healing itself, but with the latest AI improvements in base FFH, it might be able to. And finally, any particular reason the Mirror of Heaven specifically should provide immunity? Not seeing any particular lore justification for it.

The AI should be able to heal itself now... If it can haste itself, I'm sure Sephi allowed for a priest to cast cure. :lol: I mean, hell, there's an entire AI function devoted to Feasting... Or Govannon teaching spells, or Loki running around. Sephi did some amazing work. :goodjob:

I would think the Mirror of Heaven because it's actually a stretch of desert so hot it turned the sand into glass... Would be rather hard to freeze anything there. Depends on if the affliction is their body or soul, of course. ;)


Brokenbone: I'm sorry you don't like the promotion passing in combat. However, it will stay that way. The only way I'm balancing it is by changing the effects of the promotion. I'm not going to implement a complicated system as you describe when I have a single line of XML (okay, a few lines of XML) that do something similar. And I'm also not going to make one of the core components of the Frozen based on something only existing in Fall Further... remember I'm trying to keep the FF and FFH versions as close as possible.

And, in general, please read the changelog in the first post before posting something you have.

Up until you said "only existing in Fall Further" I was thinking it's only one line of xml also. :lol: Yeah, while it may be a good idea (I'd put it to 30-40 turns, personally), I think keeping all versions of them equal would be best.

I've released a Fall from Heaven 2 version of v0.8. I've yet to create (or even start) on the FF compatible version for v0.8. The changelog contains basically everything I had listed before, and everything we've discussed in this thread.

I just pictured the magic of the mirror of heaven warming and overpowering the magic of the frozen soul for a time (not curing it forever). Also as a side note, I saw a blizzard in my last game just wipe out the mirror of heaven in ice. I just think there should be a barrier around the mirror that prevents blizzards from entering a certain radius.

Unless I wanted to switch to playing the Frozen, I'm not sure why I'd ever want to use the Liberation ritual. Perhaps the ritual ought to work like the Manhatten Project where as long one Civ casts it all Civs gain the benefits.

As far as benefits go, I'd enable the various heroes and characters from the Age of Ice. Hence once Liberation is cast (and appropriate techs are acquired) the Amurites get three new Heroes (Epona, Belenus and the other one) available to them, the Lanun can get Malus of the Five, the Barbarians can get Hati, the Lljosfar can build the Great Stag and the Illians / Frozen can get Fiacra the North Wind. This gives several civs an incentive for using the Liberation Ritual. As an added benefit the models are already completed and the text files are already available and translated to boot!

The revised version of the promo formerly known as Wintered sounds good. Ability to be cured, even if it's with a Dispel Magic, is key. There's very few negative incurable promotions, stuff like Enervated or Weak, or "manageable" negatives like Crazed (+ Loyalty), those are often the booby prize for going a little too nuts with the Mutate, or diving into every Lair you see. The idea of crossing swords with this Civ and ending up with something incurable like the results of the worst of lairs, just didn't fit right... especially since you can go toe to toe with Hyborem or most of the Horsemen without such a negative, and even if you have a tickle fight with Mary Morbus, you just need a Cure Disease to recover.

I am pretty sure most civs can access Dispel Magic, think only the Clan with its Shamans will be out of luck... still, all their troops are disposable anyhow. Keep them away from any Cultists throwing Tsunamis for the rest of their careers I guess, ha ha. Doviello are Shaman-limited too, but as Winterborn, they're immune anyhow.

...

Re: Jabie's post about "what's in it for me?" Liberation... some kind of benefit to the Liberation-maker would be good. I think in my last game the Kurios summoned the Frozen, didn't make a lot of sense to me. I'm not sure if a bunch of heroes would be an appropriate reward (great flavour ideas though, especially if it was just interesting named units who had to earn their own XP), but I'm sure something could be figured out.

how about the promotion prevents natural healing and weakens unit by 10% that would by thematic and useful

I've released v0.8 for Fall Further. It should fix all the issues listed in the first post.

As a result, I've now cleaned up the first post a little and removed everything I've fixed.

Ok, how about replace Taranis Diplo-music with the theme music for Age of Ice?

Any way to make the latest update work with FF+, cant just overwrite.

Well, I think there's an issue with the Frozen's actual spawn here, balance wise- The fact that once they lay down a city, they turn a 5x5 tile square around that city into Ice. I could understand if it was within Cultural Borders or BFC, but this extends beyond cultural borders. Especially when they were summoned as well- Turn 480~ in Marathon mode, which had the additional benefit of screwing up my Memory Allocation and CTDing, but more importantly is that I have no units that can counter them at all, they've got Champions and Ice Golems while I have Bronze Axemen and Horsemen. While I dont mind that they spawned directly next to my opponent and obliterated a large portion of the Jungle Belt, I do think that when they spawn, they spawn a bit too strong. Even Hyborem only gets the first ring of tiles around Dis as Hell Terrain when he spawns, not a whopping 25-50 Tiles worth of Hell Terrain, where as Taranis can get up to 50 tiles as ice right from the get go.

Is that ice just from them spawning, or any city being founded?

If the first, I'd tone it down a bit but it's not too gamebreaking in my opinion.

If the second... That REALLY needs toning down.

As far as I'm aware of its every city they found- The two cities they currently have 5x5 sets of ice centered on them. I'd post a screenshot but I'm currently posting from my Laptop as I play using my Desktop. I'll post a screenshot later when I either finish the game or my memory fails again.

The way it (should) work is that whenever a Frozen city is founded, the Temple of the Hand is built and the effect triggered when it is built is triggered. This turns everything in a 2-plot radius around the city (which is, correct, 5x5) into snow.

Originally, I had it that the Temple of the Hand was not a starting building. But then people suggested that I give it to them as a starting building, and did. This is exactly the same as what happens when you build the Temple of the Hand as the Illians. If you think it needs toning down, then what will happen is you will not get the Temple as a starting building. I'm not messing with the effect.

And, their starting units are exactly the same as the Infernal starting units, except that Ice Golems are better then regular Longbowmen. I can change that too, of course, if you feel it's too powerful.


The diplo music change is a good idea.

The way it (should) work is that whenever a Frozen city is founded, the Temple of the Hand is built and the effect triggered when it is built is triggered. This turns everything in a 2-plot radius around the city (which is, correct, 5x5) into snow.


I think the idea is great in concept but its the effect that I'm worried about- The fact that it extends beyond cultural borders into what would normally be a level three culture zone is bad. I would be fine if it was just the BFC- not a giant square.


Originally, I had it that the Temple of the Hand was not a starting building. But then people suggested that I give it to them as a starting building, and did. This is exactly the same as what happens when you build the Temple of the Hand as the Illians. If you think it needs toning down, then what will happen is you will not get the Temple as a starting building. I'm not messing with the effect.


I do agree that the temple needs to be autobuilt, but I still think that the effect is unbalanced. At least the Illians have to build the temple for the ice to appear, which takes some time for either some form of culture to occur in the city. I'll admit that I havent played with the Illians in game for quite some time, so this is the first time I've seen it in action. With FF+ Terraforming, it isnt a big deal now, but the fact remains that it is simply too much of a suden change that can really destroy economies of nearby cities, especially if they land on a crowded map.


And, their starting units are exactly the same as the Infernal starting units, except that Ice Golems are better then regular Longbowmen. I can change that too, of course, if you feel it's too powerful.

Ice Golems are, IIRC, 6/8+2 Cold, but Liberation comes BEFORE Infernal Pact does, meaning that the Frozen already have a leg up on the Infernals in terms of starting strength and spawn speed. I'd personally like to see the spawned civs have a scaling power depending on some factor, whether its the highest tech known to the world or by the techs known to the summoner. Since that isnt possible, there needs to be some limitation on these guys. Combined with the economy ruining effect of the Insta-Temple, Anyone these guys land near will be utterly screwed, and unlike with Hell Terrain there's no way to stop it save terraforming, which requires two different Mana Types (Sun and Water) as opposed to one for Hell Terrain (Life). Toning down the number of units might be applicable, but it would require more play testing.

who can summon the Frozen?

I believe any non-good civ who has the elementalism tech can create the ritual "Liberation" which causes the Frozen to enter the world.

I could weaken Ice Golems... I could reduce number of starting units... or I could push Liberation to a farther-back tech in the tech tree. Which is best?

Also, I can make it so that the Frozen's version of the Temple (the two use different functions, so I can change one and not the other), only fills a one-plot radius area at first, and then when the city's culture expands, the ice expands to a two-plot radius (or, just the BFC, and not the whole two-plot radius).

I could weaken Ice Golems... I could reduce number of starting units... or I could push Liberation to a farther-back tech in the tech tree. Which is best?

Also, I can make it so that the Frozen's version of the Temple (the two use different functions, so I can change one and not the other), only fills a one-plot radius area at first, and then when the city's culture expands, the ice expands to a two-plot radius (or, just the BFC, and not the whole two-plot radius).

Whoops, I thought he meant a 5-tier city. :lol: 5x5 is just the BFC, + 4 tiles in the corners. Not an issue.

Of course, would be better to rewrite that code to just look at the BFC... Think there's a block that already does that for Odalrick's Vitalize. :goodjob:

Making a gameoption we can use to restrict summoning the Frozen separately from the Mercs/Infernals. Any idea on what the name should be? For now all I'm using is 'Blocked Liberation"

Making a gameoption we can use to restrict summoning the Frozen separately from the Mercs/Infernals. Any idea on what the name should be? For now all I'm using is 'Blocked Liberation"

Well, "No Frozen" is a pretty descriptive name, and gets across the point- no Frozen, just like game options like "No Acheron", or "No Duin". A more flavorful name might be confusing, and I have no good ideas, but something like "Taranis Unfreeable" might work.

No Frozen sounds like the best way to name this option.

No Liberation is what it's named as of now... Think it sounds better than No Frozen, and it has help text telling you exactly what it does. ;)

Have a little question . is it normal that 150 turns after Liberation , the frozen have a town with 450 pop and another one with 190? because it literally explodes the armageddon counter when you are to raze one of those ...

That's a result of one of the bugs fixed in the new patch (Which will be part of the FFPlus patch, can't just install the FF patch sadly).

Basically, their own units are giving them Frozen Souls... Which are being used for population.

Not sure if this is a bug or intentional, but I've found that my units (even those in cities) seem to be getting "lost" in blizzards. In otherwords, one turn they are in a city and the next turn they are all magically out of the city. This has happened both as the Frozen, and fighting against them. A bit annoying as them, quite annoying fighting them (I basically had to capture each city twice because of it)

Also, should non-living units be immune to Wintered (or whatever it's going to be called)? It seems odd that my Goliath unit should be weaker because of a little cold...

I've never played this, so don't really know what Wintered is.

I tend to think that angels and demons should have resistance to cold just like they have to fire.

The Goliath is a mechanical unit, right? Machines can be very temperature sensitive. Low temperatures can cause the microscopic crystal structure of metals to change, greatly changing their properties. Cold metals can be extremely brittle. Some alloys can separate into different parts due to the cold. I've heard that the tin cans that the Germans army stored their food in WWII became quite dangerous in the Russian winter, as the phase change caused sharp shards of metal to be ejected out of the cans and into the food, from where it could rip apart the digestive system of those who ate it.

Please bear with me as this was my first game I was able to get into without CTDs.

Well, the Frozen were summoned and this sent me scurrying to this thread to read more about what was going on - in addition to the ole trial and error method of learning.

However, one thing that mystifies me is how their game score went. I realize the point system in Civ 4 is wonky at best, however, hear me out...

When they entered the game they came in at around 600 pts - this was about turn 400 of an Epic speed game. I had a little over 700 pts. The other 6 AI civs in the game were 200 or more pts below the score of the Frozen when they came into the game.

Within, oh, maybe 150 turns, the Frozen was 300 pts ahead of me 1,200 vs. 900 pts. I was amazed how fast their score went up.

However, then for about 25 turns, their score dropped from 1,200 pts to 800 pts (middle of the pack), only to come back around 1,400 pts. again.

Are these scoring fluctuations and rapid ascent of the Frozen to be expected? Why do they start with so many pts.? I don't remember any of these things happening with the likes of Basium, Hyborem, Koun, etc.

Having said this, they really add an interesting element to the game to say the least. A very fine job in coming up with the Frozen for RifE!:goodjob:

If the cohttp://pix.tiko.be/i/blank.gifcksucker (whatever their Chariot UU is called) nests something, then you eliminate the frozen, then the nested victim explodes into new units, the new units count as Tanaris's and Tanaris reappears in the scoreboard.

Cochrachan? Something along those lines. :lol:

The spawned version only lasts a few turns.

If the cohttp://pix.tiko.be/i/blank.gifcksucker (whatever their Chariot UU is called) nests something, then you eliminate the frozen, then the nested victim explodes into new units, the new units count as Tanaris's and Tanaris reappears in the scoreboard.

It's "Kocrachon". All of my units are drawn from Kael's Bestiary of Erebus, available in the Lore Forum somewhere.

But that does seem to be problematic. I think I'll just make them be Barbarian (Demonic? Animal?) units if the Frozen are dead.

New to RifE and my first aquaintance with the frozen was quite a shock.

Turn 130 on normal speed, 3 cities, fighting for survival vs. the Archos, and the Frozen are spawning right next to my capital. Founding two cities in no time and soon the whole border is covered in ice. Having a peek with my rock raven: Strength 8 units, while I have a bunch of plain warriors and a few hunters :eek:
Better don't mess with those, thinks I. But a few turns later I notice that the ice starts to creep into my lands, surely this will stop sooner or later, won't it?
Nope, within a few turns my secondary city is choked, and the snow is encroaching into my capitals BFC. In desperation I throw all I have against the Frozen, taking them out with heavy casualties. Fortunately I get the peace event whith the Archos, otherwise I would have been done for.

But the ice is still spreading :cry:

Only after the last blizzard dies down, it stops. End result: one city taken out, capital reduced to half productivity. A few tiles are thawing up again, but nothing substantial.

In the end I have to find myself a new homeland in the lush jungles formerly occupied by the unfortunate Clan of Embers (Orc slaying ftw).
All in all quite a rollercoaster ride :lol:

Some questions: Is there any way to get rid of/stop the ice apart from the scorch spell? And is the spreading velocity of the icefront ~1 tile every 2-3 turns working as intended? If so, then is your only chance vs. the Frozen to kill them ASAP?

Heh tokala, I had fun with Frozen in my last Kahd game :)
Luckily for me, I had sorcery, and was on my way to getting Strength Of One. So the Frozen came much later. I got Kahd, cast dominate on Taranis, and fireballs and elementals did the rest.

If they had come earlier, I would have been screwed though.
AFAIK you can't really stop the blizzards and the ice spread, although luckily it doesn't go too far outside their own territory.

New to RifE and my first aquaintance with the frozen was quite a shock.

Turn 130 on normal speed, 3 cities, fighting for survival vs. the Archos, and the Frozen are spawning right next to my capital. Founding two cities in no time and soon the whole border is covered in ice. Having a peek with my rock raven: Strength 8 units, while I have a bunch of plain warriors and a few hunters :eek:
Better don't mess with those, thinks I. But a few turns later I notice that the ice starts to creep into my lands, surely this will stop sooner or later, won't it?
Nope, within a few turns my secondary city is choked, and the snow is encroaching into my capitals BFC. In desperation I throw all I have against the Frozen, taking them out with heavy casualties. Fortunately I get the peace event whith the Archos, otherwise I would have been done for.

But the ice is still spreading :cry:

Only after the last blizzard dies down, it stops. End result: one city taken out, capital reduced to half productivity. A few tiles are thawing up again, but nothing substantial.

In the end I have to find myself a new homeland in the lush jungles formerly occupied by the unfortunate Clan of Embers (Orc slaying ftw).
All in all quite a rollercoaster ride :lol:

Some questions: Is there any way to get rid of/stop the ice apart from the scorch spell? And is the spreading velocity of the icefront ~1 tile every 2-3 turns working as intended? If so, then is your only chance vs. the Frozen to kill them ASAP?

Heh tokala, I had fun with Frozen in my last Kahd game :)
Luckily for me, I had sorcery, and was on my way to getting Strength Of One. So the Frozen came much later. I got Kahd, cast dominate on Taranis, and fireballs and elementals did the rest.

If they had come earlier, I would have been screwed though.
AFAIK you can't really stop the blizzards and the ice spread, although luckily it doesn't go too far outside their own territory.

Blizzards will spawn in Illian/Frozen territory, and will move around freezing terrain. :lol: A few will venture out of their borders, and leave snow behind them... Usually temporary, not always. They'll also temporarily remove organic resources... those come back after a bit.

Keep in mind, Scorch alone can move Ice to Grassland, and scorch isn't hard to get. ;)

Keep in mind, Scorch alone can move Ice to Grassland, and scorch isn't hard to get. ;)

Aye, but things are getting getting ugly fast when the Frozen are popping up next to you in a desert :crazyeye: and you have neither sun mana nor even KotE yet. And even if I had those, I would have needed half a dozen adapts casting Scorch fulltime to halt the icing. No way of getting there fast enough.

I found the effort required in research and hammers better invested towards smashing some orc skulls :trouble:

Well, I meant more of a 'You can salvage any frozen out cities' type of thing. :lol:

In my first game I was just killed by the Frozen's antics. One of the worst things was the turning of my water tiles into ice.

I managed to get Sun mana and had my Adepts start to terraform the ice back.

However, I was playing the Doviello and I think they have an advantage too in ice and tundra. So, I stopped the terraforming.

1. Is a world full of ice and tundra beneficial for the Doviello or should they terraform?

2. Can the Doviello bring the Frozen into the game? I'm not quite sure how the Frozen get in the game. I've played the Doviello and Balseraphs in my two games - both usually Evil, but my Balseraphs changed to Neutral after adopting Runes.

Also, I just loved playing the Doviello with their peace with the animals and later the animals spawning in their cities. I think in RifE every civ has some new and fun feature worth trying. So many civs, so little time....;)

In my first game I was just killed by the Frozen's antics. One of the worst things was the turning of my water tiles into ice.

I managed to get Sun mana and had my Adepts start to terraform the ice back.

However, I was playing the Doviello and I think they have an advantage too in ice and tundra. So, I stopped the terraforming.

1. Is a world full of ice and tundra beneficial for the Doviello or should they terraform?

2. Can the Doviello bring the Frozen into the game? I'm not quite sure how the Frozen get in the game. I've played the Doviello and Balseraphs in my two games - both usually Evil, but my Balseraphs changed to Neutral after adopting Runes.

Also, I just loved playing the Doviello with their peace with the animals and later the animals spawning in their cities. I think in RifE every civ has some new and fun feature worth trying. So many civs, so little time....;)

Yeah, I'm thinking that the water should only be temporarily frozen, rather than even a chance for permanent... Either that, or we need an IceBreaker promotion for ships. :lol:



Well, that depends on what you mean. They DO get 1 :food: from Snow... Makes the tile usable. They also have Winterborn, which means they get combat bonuses in snow/tundra... They're version of winterborn also includes stealing enemy weapons. ;) That is in their concept section in the pedia, btw. Other than those bonuses, they don't get anything towards the actual terrain.... They DO get extra food from the Yaranga, a tundra/snow improvement that can discover certain animal resources and is buildable in forests. Spam the hell out of those. :lol: Good for FoL anyway, which increases their spawn rate.
Any Evil civilization can do so. Requires Elementalism, and costs 600 :hammers:... Half of if you have Ice Mana. ;)

I'm glad you like them. They were the second civ I worked on.... Their animal spawns will likely be rebalanced/expanded next patch when all of the animals are finished, but it's a fun mechanic.

Really though, not EVERY civ has been touched. The Malakim/Doviello were the ones who started the mod... Mechanos were incorporated and altered a bit, The Legion was added (very fun, if you're a warmonger), and now the Frozen. The Khazad had the Dwarven Mine added, which is enough that they're one of my favourites... Can never decide between the two emergent leaders though. The one is more unique, but the other has extra production... massively powerful for the Dwarves. The Amurites were also upped from base FF, but that's all from RLD, which I mostly incorporated (apart from the extra spell tier).

Hm, wouldn't it be somewhat nice if summoning him would have some sort of incentive, or have it be mandatory? I can see the Doviello and the Illians having an incentive to summon him, but only because Taranis is more dangerous to others than him. Maybe have the ritual add Winterborn to all the units of the summoning Civ? Or have him a chance to spawn like 1% per ice mana in the game? Anything that would give a reason to summon him, or not have it depend on civ's building a somewhat useless ritual.

Perhaps making Ice Mana required to construct Liberation might be a good idea, to limit them somewhat to Illians/Letum Frigus or if pursued after elementalism, plus an incentive of 1-3 Ice Golems to balance the fact that it was 600 Hammers out of your way and a couple thousand beakers out of the way of champions.

Originally they were Illian-only... People complained precisely because it was limited. :lol:

I have recently played the Illian's and Oy, it is annoying for your cows to be continually hidden under snow and then popping up several turns later.

I mean, it is hard to use the organic land resources as the Illians, so much so that I was lagging far behind AI --more than usual, that is--; also, I happened to be situated in a rather watery area, I mean, ice-doom-ageddon area --could not get a galley/work-boat out for the life of me, which made water resource usage near impossible--.

Are the Illians still meant to be a playable race? --I suppose they are better than a few of the other civs, but still-- =p

Hmm... Need to prevent resources from disappearing when in Illian/Frozen land.

I don't like the frozen.

Thank you very much for the option to disable them.

Hmm... I believe that I'll make Taranis unable to change alignment through any means. Only he and Cassiel will have that feature... I think it fits him.

I don't like the frozen.

Thank you very much for the option to disable them.

I have to seriously say "amen" to that, brother! I tried a few games with them in.

I really can't see how anyone can play a game when the Frozen enters the scene.

1. As I mentioned in another thread, it doesn't make sense how fast their cities grow and how high their game scoring rapidly escalates. Simply put, I don't see any way you could win a Time Victory against the Frozen. Anything like that which eliminates a game victory condition is a problem IMO.

2. The ice spread is a bit much. I used to think that hell terrain spread was bad, but this is hell terrain on steroids. An adept can use Scorch to change ice to tundra, but next turn it is ice again. You need an army of adepts with Scorch if the ice is anywhere near your borders. It brings back the terrible micromanagement exercise of pollution removal in Civ III.

3. I'm finding it impossible to even wage war against the Illians and especially the Frozen because of the ice damage you get. It can be quite a bit and you cannot move your units anywhere without getting it. Worse, it appears to even cause damage INSIDE your borders. So, even when you move your units to the front lines they arrived damaged and need to be healed...so they can move a tile or two and get more damage. :(

I'm sorry. Love the concept of the Frozen, but in the game itself, just not much fun. Thank you indeed for the option to switch them off. :)

Fairly sure I was right about the barb frostlings granting Frozen Souls, so assuming I am correct their astronomical city growth will be curtailed next patch.
Blizzards are being nerfed, like I said. Ice will still spread within their borders, but blizzards will be rarer.
Again, blizzards will be rarer. ;)

Fairly sure I was right about the barb frostlings granting Frozen Souls, so assuming I am correct their astronomical city growth will be curtailed next patch.
Blizzards are being nerfed, like I said. Ice will still spread within their borders, but blizzards will be rarer.
Again, blizzards will be rarer. ;)


At any rate, I'm giving up my current game and my next game will start with no Liberation. I'll try again with the new patch.

I am a little confused between a Blizzard and Ice. I can see the damage caused if I take the war to them in their territory, but I don't get receiving damage if I move a unit on to what looks like an ice tile.

Also, is there anything like Magic Resistant, or Cold Resistant (hard to get, I think) that would stop the damage when you go inside Frozen or Illian territory? Using Scorch is pretty worthless right not IMO as it doesn't even last a turn on this ice.

Also, please remember the ice on water tiles as there doesn't seem to be a way to deal with those and they can really mess you up if you have small bodies of water in your territory.

Blizzards cause damage to units inside of them; Ice does not. generally a Blizzard is ON Ice, whether from spawning there or from converting the tile... But it's the Blizzard that causes the damage.

Cold Resistant would be a good idea for it, if it doesn't work already. So long as it is specifically Cold damage being done, Cold Resistant should work naturally.

I'm thinking Ice tiles should only be temporarily frozen.

Blizzards damage units moving into them, not those that stay put on a Blizzard tile.

Blizzards cause damage to units inside of them; Ice does not. generally a Blizzard is ON Ice, whether from spawning there or from converting the tile... But it's the Blizzard that causes the damage.

Cold Resistant would be a good idea for it, if it doesn't work already. So long as it is specifically Cold damage being done, Cold Resistant should work naturally.

I'm thinking Ice tiles should only be temporarily frozen.

I'm thinking the same, and I'm also thinking the simplest solution about Ice on water may be simply to not freeze the tiles.

I have to seriously say "amen" to that, brother! I tried a few games with them in.

1. As I mentioned in another thread, it doesn't make sense how fast their cities grow and how high their game scoring rapidly escalates. Simply put, I don't see any way you could win a Time Victory against the Frozen. Anything like that which eliminates a game victory condition is a problem IMO.


Well, this is something that could in theory happen with any of the Fallow civs that depend on other units being killed to increase their numbers. Similar to Infernals and Mercurians, not so much the Scions and the Legion of D'Tesh as they grow through other means. The difference is that for the Frozen, it seems to be happening very often. I saw it in my last game as well, as Elohim - played to about 300 turns (normal speed) and observed the Frozen had about four or five cities in between 40 and 60+ pop. They had carved out quite a nice little refrigerated slice of the world for themselves, appropriately next to the Illians. I had the game won with an Altar victory, but I didn't have the highest score :)

Actually, as we have a 'tempfeature' function already having temporary ice on water is quite easy, and fitting. ;)

I'm thinking the same, and I'm also thinking the simplest solution about Ice on water may be simply to not freeze the tiles.



Well, this is something that could in theory happen with any of the Fallow civs that depend on other units being killed to increase their numbers. Similar to Infernals and Mercurians, not so much the Scions and the Legion of D'Tesh as they grow through other means. The difference is that for the Frozen, it seems to be happening very often. I saw it in my last game as well, as Elohim - played to about 300 turns (normal speed) and observed the Frozen had about four or five cities in between 40 and 60+ pop. They had carved out quite a nice little refrigerated slice of the world for themselves, appropriately next to the Illians. I had the game won with an Altar victory, but I didn't have the highest score :)

I've had some large cities with d'Tesh, and a few other civs, but nothing came close to what I saw with the Frozen.

I'm sorry it just doesn't make sense to me how you can be ahead in virtually all other game elements (technology, Wonders, Wealth, territory size, etc.) and be obliterated in the score. I gave up around Turn 550 still ahead in everything but pop. My score was 1,600 pts while the Frozen had over 4,000 pts.

Yes, I could have tried to gain another type of victory, but the point is that it just isn't possible to have a Time Victory (you often have to settle for this) with the Frozen in the game.

Thank you for the clarifications on Blizzard vs. Ice.

Their score is high because of their population; Now that I know there's an issue with the number of Frozen Souls they are getting, I know what to look at. ;)

A lot of the population issues should have been fixed in my v0.8 (i.e., the independent Frozen civ mod). From the changelog:

-Allow Dispel Magic spell to remove Wintered from affected units.
-Wintered/Frozen Soul now applies -15% strength, -25% against cold damage
-Frozen units no longer have Winterborn promotion
-Wintered/Frozen Soul is no longer spread by Winterborn... it is spread by Ice Demon instead
-All Frozen units now have Ice Demon (except for the Ice Golem, which starts with Golem)
-Removed Winterborn trait (it was useless now that Frozen do not start with Winterborn)
-Your own units no longer turn into Frozen Souls
-Wintering no longer causes Frozen or Winterborn units to gain Wintered/Frozen Soul
-Blocked Winterborn units from gaining the Wintered/Frozen Soul promotion

The key changes here is eliminating Winterborn as a spreader of Frozen Soul/Wintered. So now only Frozen units can spread it. And now that Winterborn itself has less of an effect (which can be made even less), and that spawn rates have been decreased (your units don't create Frozen Souls when they die, the Wintering worldspell doesn't give your own units Wintered/Frozen Soul)... things should be better.

But again, that assumes these changes have been made to RiFE.

Something else that I just realized after reading about it elsewhere is that, in FFH 2 vanilla at least, a unit can become both an Angel and a Mane. So now, here, a unit can become an Angel, Mane, and Frozen Soul. Perhaps blocking this from happening would also help restrict the spawn rate?

It should have been in, as I merged it... Might have goofed during the merge though, always a possibility.

Will remerge the patch, I think. ;)

I'll do some playtesting of my own in the current version of the Frozen for Fall Further to see how population works.

Anyway, I was working on Blizzards, and I released v1.1 of the Fall Further Blizzards here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8666129). I don't know if the numbers are what you want for future versions of RiFE, or even if you've already done most of what I did, but here are the numbers now:

self.iBlizzardDriftChanceEast = 25 #Chance a blizzard drifts east
self.iBlizzardDriftChanceWest = 25 #Chance a blizzard drifts west
self.iBlizzardDriftChanceNorth = 25 #Chance a blizzard drifts north
self.iBlizzardDriftChanceSouth = 25 #Chance a blizzard drifts south
self.iBlizzardKillChance = 35 #Chance a blizzard expires
self.iBlizzardKillChancePlus = 45 #Chance a blizzard expires outside of Illian territory
self.iBlizzardChance = 20 #Chance a blizzard spawns
self.iBlizzardIceChance = 15 #Chance a blizzard turns an adjacent water plot into ice
self.iPermanentSnowChance = 30 #Chance a blizzard turns land plots into permanent snow
self.iPermanentIceChance = 15 #Chance a blizzard turns water plots into temporary ice

I added some more constants, including permanent ice and snow chances, and a chance for ice to even happen in the first place.

Scorch can now remove water ice within one tile of the caster, and I've added an extra death chance outside of Illian territory.

Whether this is what you want to use or not, I just thought I'd let you know. If you do use it... since I haven't merged it with the Frozen yet, everything will have to be changed to check for Illian and Frozen ownership of plots.

I'll do some playtesting of my own in the current version of the Frozen for Fall Further to see how population works.

Scorch can now remove water ice within one tile of the caster, and I've added an extra death chance outside of Illian territory.

Whether this is what you want to use or not, I just thought I'd let you know. If you do use it... since I haven't merged it with the Frozen yet, everything will have to be changed to check for Illian and Frozen ownership of plots.

Scorch was working OK in my games with the Frozen in them. The problem was that it would turn an Ice/Blizzard tile to Tundra, but by the next turn it was back to Ice/Blizzard again. Having an army of Adepts with Scorch to try and micromanage this was just not working.

Also, the ice in small bodies of water WAS permanent and really messed things up - on land maps anyway.

The stuff he listed is not in RifE; It's in the original mod, which he made for FfH and FF.

Hi, great modmodmodmod ;)

But i have a bug where the whitehand religion is removed from my city (exept the holy one)
Anybody know how to manualy fix it by editing the revelant files?

Hi, great modmodmodmod ;)

But i have a bug where the whitehand religion is removed from my city (exept the holy one)
Anybody know how to manualy fix it by editing the revelant files?

There is code in CvEventManager.py under the "onCityDoTurn" function that looks like this:

pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(pCity.getOwner())
if pPlayer.getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_FROZEN'):
for iTarget in range(gc.getNumReligionInfos()):
if not pCity.isHolyCityByType(iTarget):
pCity.setHasReligion(iTarget, False, True, True)
for i in range(gc.getNumBuildingInfos()):
if gc.getBuildingInfo(i).getPrereqReligion() == iTarget:
pCity.setNumRealBuilding(i, 0)

It removes all religions and religious buildings from Frozen cities (since when this was written there was no White Hand and the Frozen were agnostic).

Removing this code will stop this from happening.

Hey,

I don't know if this is a bug :

When the frozen's cities are near water plot those city grow very intensively ending at size 70/80 at a rate of 1 pop for 1 or 2 turns in epic.

I have seen this 2 times in different games and when frozen start not near water there cities grow at a normal rate.

Hey,

I don't know if this is a bug :

When the frozen's cities are near water plot those city grow very intensively ending at size 70/80 at a rate of 1 pop for 1 or 2 turns in epic.

I have seen this 2 times in different games and when frozen start not near water there cities grow at a normal rate.


Same here...

I´m playing as a Bannor right now. I was starting to loose the "tech race" for the Jotnar/Basium, so I sent an army to hold them. Now I can´t make peace with them until I return to them a city, that I won´t do.

But, at the south, the Frozen was growing... At first it was not a big problem, they killed some high promoted spiders, but that´s okay. But now they are unstopable.

Thet have 4 "core" cities covered with blizzard, with population of 49, 65, 66, 86. I send the stack of doom there, but I was stopped my march of death at a 23-pop city gates, that has Calabin as previous owners...

I´m killing 20 demons each turn, and they keep coming to defend that city, I don´t know how. All with 0 age. It´s just insane.

Is this mean to work that way? I just want to know how the mechanics work, how they do soo many trops in so short time...

Same here...

I´m playing as a Bannor right now. I was starting to loose the "tech race" for the Jotnar/Basium, so I sent an army to hold them. Now I can´t make peace with them until I return to them a city, that I won´t do.

But, at the south, the Frozen was growing... At first it was not a big problem, they killed some high promoted spiders, but that´s okay. But now they are unstopable.

Thet have 4 "core" cities covered with blizzard, with population of 49, 65, 66, 86. I send the stack of doom there, but I was stopped my march of death at a 23-pop city gates, that has Calabin as previous owners...

I´m killing 20 demons each turn, and they keep coming to defend that city, I don´t know how. All with 0 age. It´s just insane.

Is this mean to work that way? I just want to know how the mechanics work, how they do soo many trops in so short time...

No, it's not meant to work that way. Or, rather, it is, but there are some balance issues presently.

The way the system (should) work is that whenever a Frozen unit dies, they pass the Frozen Soul promotion to their enemy in combat. Then, when that unit dies, the Frozen get a Frozen Soul unit (the Mane equivalent).

Valkrionn evidently still hasn't updated RIFE to use the newest, much more balanced version of the Frozen.


I'm not sure why cities near the water would be growing faster, though.

No, it's not meant to work that way. Or, rather, it is, but there are some balance issues presently.

The way the system (should) work is that whenever a Frozen unit dies, they pass the Frozen Soul promotion to their enemy in combat. Then, when that unit dies, the Frozen get a Frozen Soul unit (the Mane equivalent).

Valkrionn evidently still hasn't updated RIFE to use the newest, much more balanced version of the Frozen.


I'm not sure why cities near the water would be growing faster, though.

I have. Just not in the released version; it's several weeks old.

As I've said multiple times, next version will have them much more balanced. Until then, I'd use the "No Liberation" game option.

No, it's not meant to work that way. Or, rather, it is, but there are some balance issues presently.

The way the system (should) work is that whenever a Frozen unit dies, they pass the Frozen Soul promotion to their enemy in combat. Then, when that unit dies, the Frozen get a Frozen Soul unit (the Mane equivalent).

Valkrionn evidently still hasn't updated RIFE to use the newest, much more balanced version of the Frozen.


I'm not sure why cities near the water would be growing faster, though.


Thank you for the response TC01.

I will play with Liberation Off for now. =D

I liked the Frozen White Apocalypse effect. I just thik that if they are going to spread that fast, they must have diplomacy off, so everyone has them as an enemy. Like an Ultra-Evil Alignment...

Same here...

I´m killing 20 demons each turn, and they keep coming to defend that city, I don´t know how. All with 0 age. It´s just insane.




Did they have mokka's cauldron in the city? Apparently the demons that die get respawned as demons again, making an infinite loop of city defenders.

I've taken to just disabling the frozen a the start of the game, or if I forget (because Civ forgets the custom game options as usual), I either declare immediate war and forget everything else to just wipe them out. Should I be able to find them, they often spawn on large continent all of their own and can expand ludicrously with no resistance.

Why? They're just far too overpowered and their effects nerf, damage or just ruin the civs of every other race.

This "magic" wintered promotion appears randomly within your own units and rapidly spreads through combat to everything. Khazad, for example, are utterly hozed at this point as it's impossible to remove this promotion without tier II spells, i.e. dispel magic. Magic *immunue* units still receive this promotion, but it's impossible to remove it because the unit is, erm, magic immune.

"Winter" appears spontaneously around the map and never leaves. Doesn't matter what you do to the underyling terrain, scorch everything to desert if you want, the "winter" is still there.

Various cold patches keep on re-appearing in the sea, producing ice blocks that are immovable through any means. Maybe a flying unit that happened to have scorch could do it, but no idea as I've never managed this.

Tar Demons spawn out of control - every time you kill/destroy one it splits into two (or more?) new ones. While highly profitable when you have a pile of units with blitz and pillage (or whatever the +2gp for killing a unit is), it makes it extremely frustrating to take out anything Frozen. Eventually they seem to stop, but you need a stack often 4 times the size of anything frozen and a few game turns to make much headway against the frozen.

Fire doesn't seem to particularly effect the frozen in any increased way, however their cold damage and "wintered" certainly does affect your own units. It would be logical the fire (sun) damage really hurts them but doesn't seem to.

Frozen lands appear everywhere - you have to waste a lot of time fixing your own lands and re-terraforming them back to what your people like. Doesn't matter if that's desert, hell terrain, swamp, etc - the snow/ice appears all over the place and overrides your own civ's terraforming. Which, incidently, is a HUGE difference - a non-frozen's terrain tends to stop at their own borders (slightly different for hell of course), however frozen lands affects everything, everywhere.

Blizzards! Exactly how are we meant to get rid of these? They happily sit there, even if everything else is fixed, damaging everything that passes through them. Which, given how bad the route-finding in civ is, usually includes all of your units. A similar problem is with units insisting on marching through haunted lands - the tool-tip path shows a safe path past the land you want to avoid, the reality is the unit walks straight into/through it.

If it wasn't for the over-reaching powers and impenetrable effects and various other smaller issues, I'd quite like the frozen. They're suitable different and interesting but right now the only way to play with them is either without them (!) or to destroy them the moment they start the game - hoping that you get to their cities before they turn massive and viral.

I'll say it again- the next version of RIFE will have a more balanced version of the Frozen.

So until then, you should play with it off.

Or download the Fall Further or the Fall from Heaven 2 version (which I need to update to patch N), which are available as standalone mods, and see how they perform there. Hopefully, in those mods the Frozen should be more balanced.