View Full Version : Dune Wars Unique Units


Deon
Oct 14, 2009, 03:48 AM
Let's start a brainstorming thread about UU. They will help to add a flavor for each nation and make them more distinct.

My ideas:

House Atreides:
Sonic Tank

House Harkonnen:
Devastator tank
Death Hand missile

House Ordos:
Deviator missile launcher; siege unit which has a chance to dominate defeated units (gas missiles)
Saboteur - kamikaze troops which cause collateral damage; they have a bonus to attack cities
Raider Trike - fast bike (3-wheeled) with high withdrawal chance

Slvynn
Oct 14, 2009, 04:02 AM
Atreides also known for having air superiority and their Omnithopters are quite better than of their rivals.White body, Round cabin "Head", more long and plain, thin not-feather wings.

Tleilaxu can have Same UUs like its in Emperror: Battle for Dune :
Contaminator (ground melee unit that can create more one of its kind if win against Melee or Guradsman unit) (not so hight str)
and Leech (Vehicle unit, that can create unpromoted Leech if wins against Vehicle unit. Targets Vehicle units outside a city (like Ballista Elephant)) with light bonus gainst Vehicle units ( lower str than unit it will replace)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbgEh1Xb4xY&feature=related

Deon
Oct 14, 2009, 04:33 AM
I'd say, we shouldn't make UU (much/at all) weaker than usual units, that's the point of them to be stronger, however I expect a lot of arguing about "the balance" in future.

P.S. The furry chick is hot.

Slvynn
Oct 14, 2009, 05:03 AM
the problem that Leech with current mechanics + Ballista elephant mechanics, replacing same tech units - is quite powerfull. I remeber how i kicked AI in BTS using Khmer BE against much later tech Knights. With all this "create another leech at win" that will be rediculously overpowered (esp in player hands), because it will be beeline Leech > DoW > wait for enemy stack near your city and spawn more leeches without losing old ones > win the game. So i think they should be weaker agains other, not vehicle units (just a bit)

Deliverator
Oct 14, 2009, 05:34 AM
The Devastator is already in since 1.5.2/1.5.3. :)

Devastator. Harkonnen UU. Replaces Heavy scorpion. Strength 35. 1 move. -30% city strength. Cannot enter peaks or hills.

Ahriman had suggestions not yet implemented that I am happy to go in:

* Trike. (Ordos UU, replaces Quad). As quad, but +1 move.
* Sonic tank. Atreides UU. Replaces medium scorpion. Same as medium scorpion, but does colleteral damage.

I am going to make a Trike model soon, I've decided.

There are a few UU ideas in the Civilization thread posted by Ahriman here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8494374&postcount=116).

Deon
Oct 14, 2009, 08:28 AM
House Harkonnen:

Agressor Tank.

Sharka
http://cncseries.ru/files/news/f_22sharkam_9e63642.jpg

Buzzsaw
http://www.3dnews.ru/documents/1850/ha_buzzsaw3_small.jpg

Inkvine Catapult.

Flame Tank.

Assault Tenon:
http://cncseries.ru/files/news/f_harkshturmtm_1aff23a.jpg

Ruhack/butcher (replaces swordsman):
http://cncseries.ru/files/news/f_ruhackwcam_ddc60a0.jpg

Monolith:
http://cncseries.ru/files/news/f_monolith002m_71865e5.jpg

Devastator MK2:
http://cncseries.ru/files/news/f_devastatormm_84eb86d.jpg

Harkonnen Gunship
(replaces ornithopter)

Deon
Oct 14, 2009, 08:30 AM
House Atreides:

Sand Bike
(replaces scout)


Minotaurus
(replaces suspensor tank/platform)

Sonic Tank

Air drone
(bombard?/interception)

House Ordos:

Kobra Cannon:
siege/bombard

Eye in the Sky:
bombard, long sight range

keldath
Oct 14, 2009, 09:14 AM
hey guys,

for the deviator,
how about entering a special capture mechanicks, that will aloow it to take control of an attacked enemy unit, since in dune 2, its specialty was capturing enemy units for a period of time.

also,
in the previous versions of dune , ive made 3 uu per civ, so theres plenty of ideas there.

Ahriman
Oct 14, 2009, 09:28 AM
There are a lot of UU suggestions in this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=326273

Please take a look through there, and consider using that thread.

I'm not sure that UUs should be considered separately from the rest of the faction design. Balance is at the faction level, so a faction with a more powerful mechanic might have fewer or weaker UUs.

Also, the UUs should fit the themes of the faction.

Atreides are about air power and mobile warfare, and a small high quality army.
Harkonnen are about heavy industry and slavery and vehicles and quantity.
Corrino are about incredible heavy assault infantry.
Fremen are about good melee and desert raiders with very few vehicles.
Ix are mechanized.

Where are those pictures from? The mostly don't seem very Duneish.
I would definitely want to stay away from too much of a Command & conquerish feel, particularly ridiculous units like that buzzsaw.

Capture mechanics tend to be too powerful; the deviatior should be doing disruption rather than mind control.

Deon
Oct 14, 2009, 09:35 AM
Pictures are nothing, and they are from different mods and Dune PC game.

I just get a list, models will be in the same theme, don't be afraid :). I will make them detailed and apply a correct texture. Animating can be a problem but I will try hard.

P.S> I agree about deviator, actually the gas had only temporary effect in the PC game, thus confusion should be good. Discuss :D.

I.E., I like the Buzzsaw. A sand-only unit which has a bonus against infantry and worms for Harkonnen.

http://i36.tinypic.com/2qvtaoz.png
(Model could be changed)

Slvynn
Oct 14, 2009, 09:39 AM
Deviator can surely abuse culture combat influence mechanics. (Dominating imo bit tooooooooooooooo powerfull) LEts say x3 - x5 culture change after combat win, but act as normal unit, creating very insteresting unit with unique power and mechanics, using something distinct to vanilla unit properties.

BTl Leeches idea can create interesting more powerfull version of Ballista Elephant Style Unit, which spawns equal units sometimes when it wins :P

Also - Omnithopters is a must for Atriedes. Its one of their canon well known powers - Air superiority. (their symbol is Eagle as well, holding some allegory meaning of house powers - honor and aircraft)

keldath
Oct 14, 2009, 09:46 AM
Ahriman,

i agree, we should stick to the faction theme just like you wrote.

though the c&c models aren't that bad, maybe the art guys can get some inspiration from it.

always got annoyed from the buzzsaw unit back in the days , but it could be neat, good vs infantry - a powerful hark unit that can fight against the sardukar for instance.


deon and Slvynn,
really glad to have your art skills here :)

davidlallen
Oct 14, 2009, 10:29 AM
(EDIT: updated for 1.6.4)

Here is a list of the existing unique items in the game. There are several UU and UB. We also have some unique abilities (UA). Many of the special units are not really limited to one civ; they rely on a unique resource (UR) which is available to one civ but can be traded.

Atreides: Hawk Thopter, a UU replacement for Vulture Thopter with +1 move. Pilot School, a UB replacement of Aerie which gives more XP for starting thopter and hornet units.

Bene Gesserit: Sayyadina UU, teaches combat/drill promotions. Due to a bug this was not buildable until 1.6.3; no playtest feedback yet; passive effect which is hard to notice. Kwisatz Haderach UU, gives +25% strength in stack; moved from Atreides in 1.6.4, no feedback yet.

Bene Tleilax: Plague effect on combat result, and late game unit to provide ghola (clone) unit commanders with high experience. Playtest feedback is that plague spreads too much; no playtest feedback yet on the gholas.

Corrino: Imperial Trooper UU replaces heavy trooper; Laza Tiger UU replaces master guardsman; a HN unit intended to pick off isolated enemy units. Selamlik, UB of courthouse building which gives -50% war weariness. Several powerful UR melee units.

Ecaz: Elaccan Gladiator, UU of hardened bladesman; high strength, but automatically dies after any combat win or lose. Smuggler: has trade mission like Great Merchant but less powerful. Smuggler's Haven: two additional landing stages. Sculptor's Garden: UB of Mushtamel; +1 trade route.

Fremen: All initial units, and some later foot units, start with double speed desert movement. Several powerful melee UR units.

Harkonnen: Devastator Tank UU of Heavy Scorpion. Slave Pit, UB of courthouse which has no real effect since slavery "whip" is temporarily removed. Inkvine Regiment UU of Heavy Trooper. Can generate slave units on combat victory.

Ix: four walker UR units; playtest feedback is that they should be strengthened a little, spread out better in the tech tree, and also given a national limit of 10. Three UB which are variants of the late game automated factory and research center; these use thinking machines, and the Ixian variant avoids the happiness penalty. Strong disagreement about overlap between Ixian buildings and Technocracy.

Ordos: spy units gain 1 XP per turn. Trike, UU of Quad with +1 movement.

Deliverator
Oct 14, 2009, 10:51 AM
As I've just said on the art thread I think the Buzzsaw is too much of a departure from the Dune canon. We have already added quite a lot of Westwood content which I'm fine with, but I'd like us to come up with new more Dunish ideas rather than just re-use all their occasionally quite poor ideas.

Ahriman
Oct 14, 2009, 01:35 PM
As I've just said on the art thread I think the Buzzsaw is too much of a departure from the Dune canon. We have already added quite a lot of Westwood content which I'm fine with, but I'd like us to come up with new more Dunish ideas rather than just re-use all their occasionally quite poor ideas.

Exactly. No pure fantasy units please. A buzzsaw that you drive around in the desert? Ridiculous....

Fremen: All initial units, and some later foot units, start with double speed desert movement. Several powerful melee UR units. Not much playtest feedback; in autoplays, it seems that AI Fremen do *worse* at early game expansion, which is not expected.

I should mention again that the ideal design goal for Fremen would be to remove most of their vehicle/aircraft/suspensor access, and make them much more infantry based. But this would take a lot of AI work.
The main reason that the Fremen AI does worse I think is because the AI doesn't understand that it can spread its settlers across desert without transports, and because it doesnt' get the scout thopter. The other AIs know how to use scout thopters to spread settlers. Fremen can't expand off their initial island without suspensor transports.

I will try and gives some more UU feedback next time I get a chance to do some testing. I did add some walker feedback that we should maybe make these national limit units (so we dont' get entire armies composed of walkers) like the Sardaukar units (and maybe Fedaykin/worm rider?).

I think an Aerie UB replacement for Atreides that also gives a hornet bonus and allows +1 aircraft units in the city would be cool. Maybe they could also get a much earlier hornet unit, low strength/range, at the combat thopters tech?

Slvynn
Oct 15, 2009, 02:15 AM
About Trike: i think it should have 4 (1-) str +25% evasion bonus +1 movement compared to Quad, which it replaces. Its just opens for Ordos some flavour tactics aviable abusing long move and hight evasion bonus, but need -1 str to blance it (Its also was in Dune II - it had lower armor and damage.

Ahriman
Oct 15, 2009, 07:42 AM
A strength 4 unit (with no defensive bonuses) is going to be pretty useless at that point in the game for anything except pillaging.

That would be like still using chariots in vanilla against spearmen and swordsmen rather than graduating to horse archers.

Just add the withdraw bonus to the quad, as already designed.

Again I'm going to say, please look through this thread (particularly the last few posts).
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=326273

Slvynn
Oct 15, 2009, 08:06 AM
As for Ordos Spies and infiltrators at all - i think bonus on unhealthy should be renamed. Canon Fish Speakers have nothing similar with poisoning city waters.
As for ordos such ifiltrators can be really potent, but there is big problem of lack of EPs. I am playing my Emperror Epic game right now with Ordos. May be it iwll be good to add some Ordos only wonder , that will increase GSpyP.
Good investment of hammers and micromanaging - but then yu will be able to use your powers and benefit from them.

About Deviator - noone commented my idea to link itto combat influenced culture mechanics. (x3 -x5 - (more?) modifier to culture change). Mods are cool when they have something fresh and new to give to player, some new mechanics will be great, and Deviator fumes influence will be shown on culture map, green squares inside enemy land, which he cant work, because people from that square love Ordos now . :D

Deon
Oct 15, 2009, 09:32 AM
Nobody commented it but I think it's a good idea :) (culture influence).

Also for Ix, since they are machine-obsessed underground dwellers, I thought it'd be cool to have cybernetically-enchanced melee mutants as a replacement of swordsmen. You'd think that they can easily come up with a fast and strong specie capable of melee fighting in their underground labs, why should they spend men? And they could use implants to control them. I am thinking of some tweaks to the texture and model of the current Drown model in fall from heaven (from BTS campaign), with some spikes on the back and maybe bladed weapons and blueish skin (they don't see the sun, poor guys :().
What do you think?

Ahriman
Oct 15, 2009, 09:47 AM
About Deviator - noone commented my idea to link itto combat influenced culture mechanics

Deviators should be confusing combat units, not influencing culture/political influence. That wouldn't make much sense to me. Its like a nerve gas that has a brief, temporary impact on combat units (just after they inhale the gas); why would that weaken tile influence?
Its not a long-term mind control device.

I thought it'd be cool to have cybernetically-enchanced melee mutants as a replacement of swordsmen.

Thats basically what the walker units already are.

I am thinking of some tweaks to the texture and model of the current Drown model in fall from heaven (from BTS campaign), with some spikes on the back and maybe bladed weapons and blueish skin (they don't see the sun, poor guys ).

Something like Drown sounds much more biological, rather than mechanical.

If we can find some good cyborg leaderhead art though, maybe we can replace Malky with Rhombur Vernius. Much better timeline wise (we're modling the times around the prequels, Dune and Children of Dune, not thousands of years later).

Also, death hands as a cruise missile with more collateral damage would be a nice homage.

davidlallen
Oct 15, 2009, 09:48 AM
Deviator fumes influence will be shown on culture map, green squares inside enemy land, which he cant work, because people from that square love Ordos now

That is an interesting idea. A while ago, Ahriman had suggested the same thing for Bene Gesserit Reverend Mothers; they should be able to influence the population in a plot to join them. He suggested using some mechanics from influence-driven war. I haven't studied this very closely, but so far I don't see any way to actually implement it. It is on the list for "someday, if I can figure it out.

Also for Ix, since they are machine-obsessed underground dwellers, I thought it'd be cool to have cybernetically-enchanced melee mutants as a replacement of swordsmen.

Ix has four unique mech units, the walker, avatar, cymek, and spider. I think they are pretty cool cybernetic units. Have you tried them out yet?

Deon
Oct 15, 2009, 10:41 AM
I tried these models but not in this mod. I think I saw that they have nice animations but I may check again :D.

Anyway, the more distinct nations are, the more interest and replayability is in the mod. I've just watched "Pandorum" and those guys + some cybernetical enchancements could make a good Ix unit :).

Slvynn
Oct 15, 2009, 10:42 AM
as for Deviator - yep some confusing (stunning will do too (stack effect) (some chance to confuse units in enemy stack - with promoteable "toxic warfare" that adds % to cause the effect)- efect similar to charm + entangle from ffh combined?

Though culture affecting unit - that should be cool, if not Deviator then Mothers perhaps... but thats very interesting unit mechanics to leave it aside...

Slvynn
Oct 17, 2009, 05:32 AM
Atrides Orni (Omni?) Thopters - UU, can bombard defences, cause small collaterial damage. replacing falcon thopter
here is a vid
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl1ieJqg6uA&feature=related

Ahriman
Oct 17, 2009, 07:00 AM
Just to clarify some potential confusion: *every* faction has ornithopters. Thats what the entire thopter class represents. Atreides should arguably have some better thopter/hornet UUs, but its not like ornithopters are unique to them. They're basically Dune-universe helicopters, everyone has them on every planet.

I don't think that putting bombardment on thopters is a good idea; its better to leave that for the Hornet class (aircraft). 1-2 first strikes maybe.

Slvynn
Oct 17, 2009, 07:04 AM
Yeah sure, simple we have not "Ornithopter" unit, so we can modify it into Omnithopter (Omnipotence) into being atreides UU, if not bombardment, hten 1-2 1st strikes and may be +1 str.
video is for unit model.

keldath
Oct 17, 2009, 07:04 AM
aye, i agree with ahriman,

the soul purpose of the hornets is to be able to bombard, the thopters are helicopter type.


though - i think the orni thopter should be a uu to the atriedis, yeah sure - orni is the thopters - but the name thing - orni - can be unique for the atreidis - like in the dune 2 game.

Ahriman
Oct 17, 2009, 07:06 AM
Yeah sure, simple we have not "Ornithopter" unit, so we can modify it into Omnithopter (Omnipotence) into being atreides UU, if not bombardment, hten 1-2 1st strikes and may be +1 str.
video is for unit model.

There is no such thing as an 'omnithopter'. Orni means bird, omni means all (or multi).

Slvynn
Oct 17, 2009, 07:58 AM
There is no such thing as an 'omnithopter'. Orni means bird, omni means all (or multi).

I think i didnt explained my idea well. I know the meaning of word Omni - and my suggestion, not to call it with boring Atreides Thopter, but to add, to create new name, like Omnithopter (Omni as mark of superiority, Multithopter, multitask etc.).

Deliverator
Oct 17, 2009, 08:38 AM
I don't think Omnithopter is a good name for the Atreides UU. I would prefer to use the name Hawk Thopter since their symbol is the hawk, and we think of another bird to replace the current Hawk Thopter unit.

davidlallen
Oct 17, 2009, 10:04 AM
I would prefer to use the name Hawk Thopter since their symbol is the hawk, and we think of another bird to replace the current Hawk Thopter unit.

I'm going to make some changes to the Atreides UU/UB/UA today. I plan to change the aerial bay world wonder(?) into a Atreides UB, Pilot School, which replaces the Aerie and gives +6XP to thopter and hornet units. I will also copy the Hawk Thopter to a new unit, Vulture Thopter, and make the Hawk the Atreides UU. If you'd be interested in making a UU Hawk Thopter graphic, that'd be great. Also I will remove the Atreides auto-draft mechanic, but I will leave the Atreides Heir unit. (Yes, Ahriman, I remember your request to make the Heir give a defensive bonus only, but I have not found the place in FFH which allows general defensive bonuses to be separate from strength bonuses. It is still on the list, AH108).

Ahriman
Oct 17, 2009, 10:33 AM
I plan to change the aerial bay world wonder(?) into a Atreides UB, Pilot School, which replaces the Aerie and gives +6XP to thopter and hornet units

Where will this fit? Aerie comes very very early, and +6xp might be too much then.

but I have not found the place in FFH which allows general defensive bonuses to be separate from strength bonuses

Understood. I am not good at differentiating which features are easy to do in vanilla, and which require some of the FFH/FF codebase changes.

davidlallen
Oct 17, 2009, 10:41 AM
Where will this fit? Aerie comes very very early, and +6xp might be too much then.

UB's are typically a direct replacement of the building at the same spot. It is a little powerful, but we are aiming to give each civ a strong, distinct power. This plus the hawk (strength 6, move 3, replaces vulture at strength 5, move 2) will give Atreides a strong focus on thopter/hornet units. I think this is a good thing.

Ahriman
Oct 17, 2009, 11:02 AM
Strength 6 on such an early unit *and* with +6 free xp is likely to be too much I think. Thats instant level 2, so with combat 2 its strength 7.2. Which is much stronger than its supposed counter, the missile trooper, and in fact any other units of that era; nothing else has a strength that high until hardened bladesmen, which are considerably later.

And remember that thopters all get a strength bonus vs melee.

I suggest that you:
a) Change the Aerie to +4 free xp for new thopters and hornets, and gives +1 extra air unit capacity in the city (like how airports normally give +4). So its still not giving you level 3 just by itself.
b) When the vulture is strength 5 2 moves, strength 5 3 moves would be powerful enough (3 moves on a thopter is very powerful because you can start on a desert tile, move onto land, pillage, and then move back onto desert again). Or strength 5 3 moves +1 first strike chance.
Strength 6 is too much.

davidlallen
Oct 17, 2009, 11:21 AM
OK, Pilot School gives +4 XP and +2 air capacity, Hawk is only strength 5 (still move 3).

Ahriman
Oct 17, 2009, 11:30 AM
Sounds good.

davidlallen
Oct 18, 2009, 04:42 PM
Ecaz is completely missing any UU / UB / UA. In the other thread we have discussed a little about giving them a third landing stage or two contracts from each landing stage. This is not very exciting. What can we do to make them interesting?

Ahriman
Oct 18, 2009, 05:00 PM
Some possibilities:
We did want to give them some trade synergies; they were our "trader civ" to replace the Guild. So a third landing stage or some buildings with trade bonuses would be nice. I like the idea of having a faction like the Morganites on Planetfall who want to keep open borders with everyone and generate lots of dosh from trade.

Or maybe they get a single free copy from their palace of the Ginaz training resource; it would be nice to signify somehow their affilitation with the Ginaz school, which is one of the few fluff things we have about them.

Or maybe they can build 1-2 copies of a UB landing stage in addition to the normal landing stage, that trigger the same kind of event as normal landing stages but have a separate set of importable goods (such as fogwood, a +1 happy luxury good, and some other drugs)

I don't think they need a ton of unique units; part of the point is that they don't have a special military, but have a great economy, so can afford to have more of all the normal stuff than everyone else.

Some unit possibilities
1. A drugged up melee fighter with a high strength value who dies at the end of combat (win or lose). Elaccan Gladiator?
Maybe a strength 10 hardened bladesmen replacement. Or a cheaper strength 7 hardened bladesmen replacement with +50% vs melee units. (So you can still shoot him as easily, but he's brutal vs any other melee.

2. A suspensor trade unit that has a mini great merchant trade mission. I think some mods had a unit like this too. I think that could be fun and in theme; sending your traders out, but having to keep them away from worms and from anyone you're at war with.

davidlallen
Oct 18, 2009, 05:52 PM
... have a separate set of importable goods (such as fogwood, a +1 happy luxury good, and some other drugs)

I will have to think about how to give them additional UR. I don't think one civ can have a different number of national wonders. Adding more contract types is easy, but it assumes they have lost the race to the best contracts. Do you have specific names for additional drug contracts? We want to make sure there are 10+ general purpose contracts but if we add more general ones, some of the drug ones could become UR for Ecaz.

Or maybe they get a single free copy from their palace of the Ginaz training resource ...
1. A drugged up melee fighter with a high strength value who dies at the end of combat (win or lose). Elaccan Gladiator?
2. A suspensor trade unit that has a mini great merchant trade mission. I think some mods had a unit like this too. I think that could be fun and in theme; sending your traders out, but having to keep them away from worms and from anyone you're at war with.

I like #0 and #1, and they are easy. I like #2; I would call the unit a Smuggler, but I am not sure how to do it. I will have to think about that one.

Ahriman
Oct 18, 2009, 07:07 PM
I don't think one civ can have a different number of national wonders.

You wouldn't need different numbers of national wonders across civs; you just create a unique building replacement that has its own limit. And then the new national wonder has identical code to the normal landing stage, and feeds into the trade good resource code in the same way.

Or you just use the normal building and then create a single third one UB that accesses a different list of resources.

I would call the unit a Smuggler, but I am not sure how to do it. I will have to think about that one.

There must be some parameters somewhere that govern the yields of the great merchant's trade mission, in the same way that there are parameters that determine the great engineer's hammer yield. So just give it the suspensor promotion, no combat strength, great person AI, and no abilities except the (scaled down) trade mission.

Slvynn
Oct 20, 2009, 04:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXD36ljblz0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUghdJfgEEk&feature=related
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=281393UYz-k&feature=related

as mentioned in Art thread, this can be good example for model for Atreides UU

Psychic_Llamas
Oct 20, 2009, 08:31 PM
Are you guys taking much inspiration from the Emperor: Battle for Dune game? there are a lot of potential UUs there:

Ix: Infiltrator and Projector tank
Tleilaxu: Contaminator and Leech
Ordos: Cobra, Deviator, Chemical Trooper etc etc

(sorry if this already came up. i havent read the whole thread)

Deliverator
Oct 21, 2009, 01:13 AM
I don't think all the units in Emperor:Battle for Dune fit well with the Dune universe but some are OK.

I thought about a Chemical Trooper UU for Ordos - something with Collateral Damage? It should be possible to make a gas attack effect.

Also a Heavy Trooper UU for Harkonnen would be good - a throw back to Dune 2. The current Infantry graphic could work well for that.

Psychic_Llamas
Oct 21, 2009, 01:27 AM
having no knowledge of the Dune books, i just assumed the things in Emperor:Battle for Dune were drawn from the novels. personally i love the idea of Projector tanks for Ix, a late game tank UU for Ix utilising some of the 'Hall of Mirrors' code from FfH (where any unit that attacks the city produces an illusory clone of itself under the control of the city owner, illusory clones were weaker and couldnt kill units outright)

I also think the Ixian Infiltrator would make a cool Spy UU, and you could give it greater stealth and give it a unique Espionage ability where it detonates itself to possibly wound/kill garrisoned units with a chance of declaring war, and/or destroy a building(s).

The chemical trooper with collateral damage is a good idea, and possibly even have it transfer a 'poisoned' promotion to enemies in the stack (or just those affected by the collateral damage) which reduces their strength or heal rate.

I also really like the Deviator as a late game Tank UU for Ordos, possibly give it a high withdrawl chance and the ability to have a chance to cause enemy tanks to join your team, (either temporarily or permanently)

The Contaminstor and Leech are interesting for Tleilaxu but i have no idea if they are appropriate for them. possibly have Contaminators spawn more contaminators after they kill as guardsman or melee unit, and have leeches spawn more leeches when they kill suspensors and tanks.

I also really like the Sonic Tank for Atreidies, give it large collateral damage and city attack strength and make it a late game tank UU.

Similarly the Fremen Fedayakin could get collateral and good city attack (at least thats what i gather from Emperor:Battle for Dune) and i also think most Fremen Units should be invisible when in the desert tiles.

EDIT: id also like to offer my assistance with making 3D art and textures for you guys, but i cant animate (i actually have a few units i need animated but cant find anyone willing to animate them for me :( )

Deliverator
Oct 21, 2009, 04:23 AM
i just assumed the things in Emperor:Battle for Dune were drawn from the novels

Westwood made up a lot of stuff that is not in the books, and generally the atmosphere of their games is quite different to the books in my opinion. If you read Dune you'll see what I mean.

EDIT: id also like to offer my assistance with making 3D art and textures for you guys, but i cant animate (i actually have a few units i need animated but cant find anyone willing to animate them for me )

I can animate from scratch (e.g. the Sandworm), rig units to existing animations and make simple adjustments to existing animations. Art contributions are appreciated (although there can be a lot of bitc*ing and moaning at times). I'm thinking of putting together a unit art plan this weekend so that we can work towards some kind of consistency.

Psychic_Llamas
Oct 21, 2009, 08:45 AM
I can animate from scratch (e.g. the Sandworm), rig units to existing animations and make simple adjustments to existing animations. Art contributions are appreciated (although there can be a lot of bitc*ing and moaning at times). I'm thinking of putting together a unit art plan this weekend so that we can work towards some kind of consistency.

awesome :) and its ok, im used to critiques ;). heres an example of my first unit i made (see below im really proud of how he turned out, just needs animations) id really love to help out with units and buildings when i get the time (i have 3 months holidays soon :D much modding time yay!) so yeh :) id be more than happy to help out :)

Westwood made up a lot of stuff that is not in the books, and generally the atmosphere of their games is quite different to the books in my opinion. If you read Dune you'll see what I mean.


fair enough :) now i really wanna read the book!

Ahriman
Oct 21, 2009, 09:48 AM
and its ok, im used to critiques

It's true, I've been working on Warhammer for a while now :-)

heres an example of my first unit i made
You forgot your link.

Psychic_Llamas
Oct 21, 2009, 09:56 AM
It's true, I've been working on Warhammer for a while now :-)

:lol: yeh, i know how Ahri rolls :p

You forgot your link.

oops, here:
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7867/slannpreview.png

Ahriman
Oct 21, 2009, 09:59 AM
Nice Slann, very cool.

Psychic_Llamas
Oct 21, 2009, 10:02 AM
i thought id shown you before ahri? maybe not :p ah well thanks anyway :D

davidlallen
Nov 02, 2009, 11:37 AM
Bump. One of our top needs right now is to improve the differentiation between the civs. We would like to get it up to the level of FFH, where the game really plays differently for each civ. The civilizations thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=326273) already has a lot of ground to cover, so I would like to use this thread for the specific topic of UU/UB. I have updated the list of effects in this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8547522&postcount=13). Here is a summary.

(Reminder: UR = Unique Resource, a contract from the landing stage which no other civ may pick. URU = a unit which requires a UR. UA = unique ability.)

* Atreides: 2 UU, 1 UB, 1 UR, no URU, no UA. Thopter is new, may be too powerful; need feedback.

* Bene Gesserit: no UU, no UB, 1 UR, 1 URU, no UA. The URU could not be built till recently, no feedback.

* Bene Tleilax: no UU, 1 UB, no UR, no URU, 2 UA (gholas and plagues). Plague is pretty powerful and could use tuning; no feedback on gholas (too late game?)

* Corrino: 2 UU, no UB, 1 UR, 2 URU, no UA. No positive or negative feedback, perhaps the UU are too boring and should be removed.

* Ecaz: 2 UU, no UB, 2 UR, no URU, no UA. Both UU are new; smuggler seems a little weak.

* Fremen: no UU, no UB, 1 UR, 3 URU, one UA (desert movement). UA seems powerful but AI cannot use it.

* Harkonnen: 1 UU, 1 UB, no UR, no URU, one UA (generates slaves). UA needs a little debugging/tuning.

* Ix: no UU, 3 UB, one UR, 4 URU, no UA. Disagreement about whether the UB should be limited by civilization or religion or both.

* Ordos: no UU, no UB, no UR, no URU, one UA (spy experience). Not much feedback on spies; 1.6.3 makes them more useful by enabling suspensor movement but it is not clear if the AI uses it.

It is easy to throw up "names" for UU. But, we need details: which unit does it replace? What are the stats? Separately we will need artwork but for now it is sufficient to just copy the base unit art, and maybe give it a slightly different paint job.

Many people have suggested the Ordos Trike, replaces Quad, +1 movement, +25% withdraw chance.

I plan a Smuggler's Haven UB for Ecaz, which gives them 1-2 additional Landing Stages, plus it has a slightly higher trade yield bonus.

Deliverator has recently suggested the Sculptor's Garden UB for Ecaz, replaces Mushtamel with additional gold.

Please help out with some specific suggestions for UU/UB.

Slvynn
Nov 02, 2009, 12:47 PM
I want to add an suggestion that differentiation should be different from ffh.
FFH like difference is subject to major AI issues as well as some of game concepts that remain unused by aI. More htan that civs are not balanced in MP, the max balance gain is paper-scissors-stone relationship, but that relationship should be between features and not between complete civs as game entities. Such relationship between civs is absence of balance. That is the thing that ruins (my ) fun to play FFH.
I think some middle point between BTS and FFH can be good. Also, we have another, different from FFH difference - URU, which also may provide special buildings/features. We just need to keep some restrain / awareness to go so far as FFH goes, because 1 - its different mod 2 - that will be awesome if some pvp MP balance will be preserved.

There still need of much more determination and differentiation being added, simply its still possible to do it in unique way, and more balanced way . URU / offworld mechanic is unique and thats good direction. Its balance is can be controlled easilly, and adjusted, AI understands it, and it have big potentials for differentiation. Addin more mechanics on different layers of game (exceeding UU/UB/URU/Civic/Synergy mechanics) can be can of worms. Simply i warning about "worms" of this matter.

(Lets say FFH ai almost never uses 20% of his starting mana potentials.. Amurites is vaaaay too potent in human player, because well built fire magic is still..... kills all, for long time, and still, ffh mod have problems with balance, and MP of FFH is not sport-like, fair play with equal starting odds/conditions/chances to win, and thing why i play BTS still - because i can take it to more one social level - tactic discussions and PVP MP, but tactic dicussions are no good if there no balance, check FFH forums, and they have very little of it. They have alot of RP, Storytelling, Epic stuf, Imagination, which are partially questionable features for mod like DW, which based on pretty complete world of book series, is about war and less RP related, much less open (it have "canon" ) , but more tactic/strategic game with deep insight into books lore and complete feel of Dune and chance to take your part and to be a ruler of one of powerhouses of Book Series).

Deliverator
Nov 02, 2009, 01:14 PM
For a Ordos UU: Chemical Trooper, replaces Grenade Trooper, does some appropriate amount of collateral damage, perhaps raise the strength to seven as well.

I think Harkonnens need a heavy infantry UU, perhaps a stronger replacement for Heavy Infantry, with a 10% bonus versus melee?

I think in general as Ahriman said we shouldn't think of UUs in isolation, but they need to be part of the overall civ design. Ahriman posted a lot of good ideas (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8494374&postcount=116) in the civ thread that we should look to turn in concrete UU designs.

davidlallen
Nov 02, 2009, 01:20 PM
I want to add an suggestion that differentiation should be different from ffh

That is an interesting point. Let me make sure I understand. You observe that there is little multi-player activity for FFH. This is because certain civs have unique abilities which are too powerful. So if there were an MP game, everybody would want to play that civ. For FFH single player, it is still fun to try out the unique abilities of the less powerful civs, so there is still a lot of single player activity.

In this case I think the design goal is still the same. We would like to create balanced sets of UU/UB/UR/URU/UA so that each civ is equally powerful. But, FFH has not quite reached that goal itself, so the goal is even harder than we realized.

Is that a correct summary of your comment?

davidlallen
Nov 02, 2009, 01:22 PM
For a Ordos UU: Chemical Trooper, replaces Grenade Trooper, does some appropriate amount of collateral damage, perhaps raise the strength to seven as well.

From the theme standpoint, Ordos focus on espionage. Would it make sense to call this Plague Trooper and make it a UU for Tleilaxu?

I think Harkonnens need a heavy infantry UU, perhaps a stronger replacement for Heavy Infantry, with a 10% bonus versus melee?

Good idea. Do you have a name in mind?

Slvynn
Nov 02, 2009, 01:33 PM
That is an interesting point. Let me make sure I understand. You observe that there is little multi-player activity for FFH. This is because certain civs have unique abilities which are too powerful. So if there were an MP game, everybody would want to play that civ. For FFH single player, it is still fun to try out the unique abilities of the less powerful civs, so there is still a lot of single player activity.

In this case I think the design goal is still the same. We would like to create balanced sets of UU/UB/UR/URU/UA so that each civ is equally powerful. But, FFH has not quite reached that goal itself, so the goal is even harder than we realized.

Is that a correct summary of your comment?

Quite close.
1. Lets take example some really sucesfull strategic game. Starcraft. Yeah its RTS, but its good example. The differentiation there is done well on this level you said about. Civs there have UUs, on mechanics, and their super powers. but they build units, there is no special mechanics to generate units you just build them. Powers have counters within rival civ. There always way within 1 civ to counter other method of rival civ just by performing your task better than other player. That mean if human and zerg meeting - all what is matter is their skill, and not civ differentiation.
Another good example is old rusty HoM&M series, and Homeworld 2 which is perfect in this regard .
They all have some restrain in what "plane" of game civs can be different. They take the plane one you mentioned above in your post (UU/UB/UR/URU/UA) and sucess to create great difference, but keep balance.
In FFH thats not quite that way - its often matter what civ you are and what civ is your rival, heroes, magic, all open-ended. DW is not open-ended so much.
In FFH not every civ have counters against some certain others. Thats not good (for DW i think)
FFH is FFH, and DW is not FFH. It will be great if DW will provide something that FFH can not, due its so wide variety and RolePlaying totally imaginative favor.
BTS is much better in that matter, its much more Strategic/Tactic game. Yes, there are some picks (Phalanx against Keshik) that can be worse, but they have alot of equality , and much less tech specialisation need, so you still have a chances. By being so specialised and so different civ can be very weak in certain circumstances. The things that should be that one performance/way of playing should win other one, weaker. In FFH its not . Even if you can perform well as player, there are alot of "No luck" cases.
3. There are few mechanics in FFH that make it may be more fun in SP, but AI cant use them, (and that lowers challenge and dificulty level), and they are not good in MP.
Example - Bannor getting Free units, Amurites use powerful mechanics of magic, which hardly counterable , and more and more. Those things add flavour, but they add alot of worms and problems, and they are bit too much for mod/game that want to keep being relevant in matter of fair MP games, Deep strategical decisions , and tight challenge and balance between civs and quite strict resemblance of world described in originating novel series.
Also FFH isnt preserved this goal as major one. FFH is about deeps flavour/specialisation/ open-ended things / wide choices/ storytelling / Roleplaying . Its less about world that have own "canon". Its less about balance/ strategy / tactics / equal terms between civs. FFH mod team have just own, RP aligned focus. And the truth is , you can't chase and catch 2 rabbits (you can hit 2nd one, may be kill it, but to catch alive them both that will be ultimate goal). They chase their own, fantasy Roleplaying roleplaying, and have great, awesome success with that . I just think DW should have bit different focus.

I hope that what i say is clear enough.

Deliverator
Nov 02, 2009, 01:44 PM
From the theme standpoint, Ordos focus on espionage. Would it make sense to call this Plague Trooper and make it a UU for Tleilaxu?

The Chemical Trooper was a unit from the Westwood games and I think it quite suits Ordos. They are amoral, sneaky and will do anything at all to maximise profit. Chemical warfare is something distinct from biological warfare too. If we makes Ordos just espionage they'll be a bit thin, some players don't really use espionage, and for others espionage is their least favourite feature of BTS. So I think looking at some of the other Westwood inventions such as the quicker-Quad Trike, Chemical Trooper. Also, perhaps give them an Infiltrator replacing UU, called Saboteur (another Westwood name) that has a increased chance at destructive missions (if this is possible).

I also think we need to avoid getting stuck in a rut with the Tleilaxu. We already have the plague virus, which I think is enough biological warfare. I'm not sure the current Axlotl tanks quite capture their use of Face Dancers/Gholas, just selecting a promotion from your best unit seems a bit too abstract to really be flavourful. I think we should really be looking at some UUs with special abilities for them. If we can figure out how FFH does it's Marksman thing, then that would be a good ability for a Facedancer unit as Ahriman has suggested. Also, perhaps some Tleilaxu units could uses the J's unit regeneration code (from his simple Python things) to represent them coming back as Gholas.

Good idea. Do you have a name in mind?

Inkvine Regiment perhaps. Someone might have a better one.

Edit: Also, if it's possible to create an area effect Death Hand missile for the Harkonnen that would be good fun. It would damage/destroy units in a 3x3 squares centred on the target. It would have to be pretty expensive to build.

Slvynn
Nov 02, 2009, 01:57 PM
The Chemical Trooper was a unit from the Westwood games and I think it quite suits Ordos. They are amoral, sneaky and will do anything at all to maximise profit. Chemical warfare is something distinct from biological warfare too. If we makes Ordos just espionage they'll be a bit thin, some players don't really use espionage, and for others espionage is their least favourite feature of BTS. So I think looking at some of the other Westwood inventions such as the quicker-Quad Trike, Chemical Trooper. Also, perhaps give them an Infiltrator replacing UU, called Saboteur (another Westwood name) that has a increased chance at destructive missions (if this is possible).

Nice, i like. :D

I also think we need to avoid getting stuck in a rut with the Tleilaxu. We already have the plague virus, which I think is enough biological warfare. I'm not sure the current Axlotl tanks quite capture their use of Face Dancers/Gholas, just selecting a promotion from your best unit seems a bit too abstract to really be flavourful. I think we should really be looking at some UUs with special abilities for them.

Here, Deliverator keeps restrain and i totally agree with him, he keeps being focused on real and easy-to-control plane of difference, and avoiding too abstract things . I agree 200%

If we can figure out how FFH does it's Marksman thing, then that would be a good ability for a Facedancer unit as Ahriman has suggested. Also, perhaps some Tleilaxu units could uses the J's unit regeneration code (from his simple Python things) to represent them coming back as Gholas.

Suggestion - what about adding some promo to BTl units, limit units that can have it, and when they killed they come back as gholas exactly as Do Immortals in FFH.
They need to advance level again to get that promo again to being ressurected as ghola once more. Seems nice, balanced and easy to implement.



Inkvine Regiment perhaps. Someone might have a better one.
Sounds interesting to me.

davidlallen
Nov 02, 2009, 02:26 PM
I'm not sure the current Axlotl tanks quite capture their use of Face Dancers/Gholas, just selecting a promotion from your best unit seems a bit too abstract to really be flavourful. I think we should really be looking at some UUs with special abilities for them. If we can figure out how FFH does it's Marksman thing, then that would be a good ability for a Facedancer unit as Ahriman has suggested. Also, perhaps some Tleilaxu units could uses the J's unit regeneration code (from his simple Python things) to represent them coming back as Gholas.

Perhaps this should branch back to the tleilaxu mechanics thread.

a. The axlotl tank gives *all* the promotions of the best living unit, possibly with one level degradation; this is a lot more powerful than just selecting one promotion. I have proposed to make this use the best *dead* unit, but storing that information is more work, and there isn't much feedback on this unit yet to encourage me.

b. I think Facedancers were proposed to use FFH "Mimic", not "Marksman", to steal promotions. I can probably do that. Marksman, I am not so sure about it. If we are aiming at an assassin ability, suppose I have a stack where the weakest unit is a damaged devastator heavy tank. Does it make sense for a Face Dancer to target this unit?

EDIT: i have occasionally thought of making a unit flag like "IsSinglePerson". In this case it would make sense for an assassin to target them. So the Atreides Heir and possibly Ginaz Swordsman would have this flag, and assassins could target them as well as Great People.

c. Remind me, what does the unit regeneration thingie do? Is it just healing?

Ahriman
Nov 02, 2009, 04:39 PM
The axlotl tank gives *all* the promotions of the best living unit, possibly with one level degradation; this is a lot more powerful than just selecting one promotion. I have proposed to make this use the best *dead* unit, but storing that information is more work, and there isn't much feedback on this unit yet to encourage me.


I will try to test at some stage and get some feedback. Part of the problem is that the tech is so very late game. My fault, I guess. Maybe we can tweak the tech-tree?
I made some other suggestions:

I thought of an alternative mechanic for Tleilaxu gholas; use the FFH-style immortality mechanic; immortality fits well, but balancing it was tricky.
It would take some complex coding though.

When an axolotl tank is built in a city, the *next* unit (and only the next) built in that city gains the Ghola promotion, which functions the same as the FFH immortailty trait (when killed, the unit is ressurected in the capital city, and retains the ghola promotion - must be killed twice in one turn to die permanently).

Thus, you can get 1 immortal ghola per city with an axolotl tank.

Alternative implementation: when you build an axolotl tank, give the ghola promotion to the unit the player has with the highest level of experience who does not already have the ghola promotion.


b. I think Facedancers were proposed to use FFH "Mimic", not "Marksman", to steal promotions. I can probably do that. Marksman, I am not so sure about it. If we are aiming at an assassin ability, suppose I have a stack where the weakest unit is a damaged devastator heavy tank. Does it make sense for a Face Dancer to target this unit?


I like mimic better than marksmen, but either could work I guess. Mimic has nice synergies with the gholas though.


c. Remind me, what does the unit regeneration thingie do? Is it just healing?

Regeneration is faster healing and heal while moving (march). I don't think it fits gholas well.

Psychic_Llamas
Nov 02, 2009, 08:39 PM
Regarding Ordos, i LOVE their theme in the Westwood game (they were my favourite) and the combination of Espionage, use of illegal gas weaponry like the chemical trooper and deviator, their tanks having weaker armour but powerful sheilds and their tanks abilities ro rebuild themselves. i really think you should try to take more from the games. Sure its not Frank Herbert, but there is so much that is missing from Dune and so much creative lisence for UUs and everything that getting ideas from other sources isnt a bad idea.

also, a lot of people arent 'dune geeks' that know the books inside out, im one of these and i originally found Dune and this mod from the Westwood game. i think restricting yourself to only the book cuts the potential audience in half.

this is obviously just my oppinion so take from it what you will :)

------------------

here is a list of a few things from the book's glossary:

Yali: fremen personal quarters within a sietch (potential for a UB)
Ixian Solido Projector:(Ixian UU which creates an illuory copy of the strongest unit in its stack or a selected target, illusory copies can damage but not kill enemies and cannot capture cities.)
Sliptip Guardsman: (Early Ordos UU, passes the 'poisoned' promotion ala FfH from combat.)
Selamlik: (Sardukar courthouse UB, extra reduction in maintanence cost?)
Sadus Tent: (Fremen courthouse UB, +1happy from state religion)
Noukker:(Imperial bodyguards, possible UU for Sardukar)
Lasgun Tank: (potential Ordos Suspensor UU)

Ahriman
Nov 02, 2009, 09:37 PM
i think restricting yourself to only the book cuts the potential audience in half.


We have some non-canon stuff, like the very existence of the Ordos. There is a bit of scope for things like the Deviator, but primarily they should be mercenary raiders; any weird biological stuff should go to Tlielaxu, and any weird biochemical stuff should go to Ecaz.
Going too far overboard (heartplugs...) will alienate those who are fans of the books.


Yali: fremen personal quarters within a sietch (potential for a UB)

I don't see how this would constitute a UB. Basically, this would be like having a "living room" unique building.
Sietch can be a UB though (and we had one in earlier versions of the mod).

Ixian Solido Projector:(Ixian UU which creates an illuory copy of the strongest unit in its stack or a selected target, illusory copies can damage but not kill enemies and cannot capture cities.)

This has some potential as a unit, but I'm really not sure how to implement it.
These aren't magical illusions; there is no way that the hologram can actually damage the enemy; people don't die from illusory bullets.
If anything, it should probably have something like a FFH "dance of blades" type effect; giving first strikes to friendyl units in the stack (easier ambushes).

Sliptip Guardsman: (Early Ordos UU, passes the 'poisoned' promotion ala FfH from combat.)
Maybe... but remember that "poisoned" in FFH is only passed on to the survivor of a battle. So this only helps if your unit dies.

Selamlik: (Sardukar courthouse UB, extra reduction in maintanence cost?)
This has potential.

Sadus Tent: (Fremen courthouse UB, +1happy from state religion)
A tent, as a UB? Seems wrong.

Noukker:(Imperial bodyguards, possible UU for Sardukar)
Already in the mod; there are Sardaukar Legionaries and Sardaukar Noukkers.

Lasgun Tank: (potential Ordos Suspensor UU)
Why should this be Ordos?

Slvynn
Nov 02, 2009, 10:58 PM
Some units are just canon to Ordos from Westwoood series, while Ordos have not canon in books, their canon originate from those games. And pl just listing their UUs there. I think Cobra Tank is very good addition for Ordos. If you want Ordos UU , westwood created many and orginated them, and thats what people know about Ordos.

Also biochemical and chemical - is not same. Ordos use chemical. And they can be biochemical. They just steal technologies, and use them. They use what is profitable, adjusting sometimes gained knowledge to own needs. And Deviator, chem trooper (chemical, not biochemical), Lasgun suspensor tank and cobra tank and trike - are their canon, and they ARE mercenaries. They actually are ONLY mercenary house .

davidlallen
Nov 02, 2009, 11:20 PM
It is amusing in English that we are discussing about "canon" of "cannon". With one N, it means whether it is based on something in the books. With 2 N's, it is an artillery piece. No big deal.

I am not as worried about whether units are authentic to the original books, the sequel/prequel books, movies, etc. But, just names don't help me much. Please suggest abilities and what units they replace. Hopefully we can keep a reasonable theme.

The solido projector is interesting but as Ahriman points out it requires some complex mechanics to design, and then implement. We can keep that on the back burner. Lasgun tanks were suggested before and may be worthwhile. We are kind of ignoring canon that lasers are risky because they explode when crossing a shield; the counter to a laser tank is a tiny hand-carried shield generator. Toss it in the path of the beam and the tank dies.

I like the selamlik; it fits the imperial bureaucracy theme. I'll add it.

Slvynn
Nov 02, 2009, 11:47 PM
As being suggested Trike is just more withdrawal chance quad
cobra tank ned to stand still to deal damage. I think its good as 1 movement unit which have more (alot) of first strikes, and is replacement for medium scorpion tank.
chem trooper can just have + bonus against melee and guardsman units, with slight collaterial additon, replacing grenadeer. (+25% with guardsman)
Deviator can pass promotion on enemy units that will have some % per turn chance to wear off (as some FFH effects) and will make units stand still without ability to move/ attack(like ffh entangle spell, confusion),

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrRb5bjVO18&feature=related

here is movie where you can see lasgun suspensor tanks and Cobras in action.

Psychic_Llamas
Nov 03, 2009, 12:06 AM
We have some non-canon stuff, like the very existence of the Ordos. There is a bit of scope for things like the Deviator, but primarily they should be mercenary raiders; any weird biological stuff should go to Tlielaxu, and any weird biochemical stuff should go to Ecaz.
Going too far overboard (heartplugs...) will alienate those who are fans of the books.

i would have thought the Ordos would be a big faction in the books. i have yet to read them (im not aloud untill after mu exams) but i agree with Slvynn that you are confusing chemical, biochemical, and biological. Chemical is inorganic chemicals such as arsenic, cyanide, carbon monoxide and such. Biochemicals would be things that mess with the biological workings of an organism directly. biological is things like viruses and bacteria.

also the way i see Ordos (from an outsideres persepctive) is that they acquire technology illegaly from anyone and everyone as long as it benefits them. Ordos are back stabbers and profiteers by nature.

I don't see how this would constitute a UB. Basically, this would be like having a "living room" unique building.
Sietch can be a UB though (and we had one in earlier versions of the mod).

ah ok. i read it as personel, as in military personel. my bad.

This has some potential as a unit, but I'm really not sure how to implement it.
These aren't magical illusions; there is no way that the hologram can actually damage the enemy; people don't die from illusory bullets.
If anything, it should probably have something like a FFH "dance of blades" type effect; giving first strikes to friendyl units in the stack (easier ambushes).

I honestly think this would be easy to do. you could even make it a UB (possibly as well as the UU) the same as a Hall or Mirrors from FfH. a Solido Projector Cannon, increase the defence of the city and cause it to spawn a 'Projection' of any unit that attacks the city (or unit's stack if it is a UU) these Projections should start with a 'projection' promotion that gives -90% strength, has a chance to defend the stack first, and dies after combat.

Maybe... but remember that "poisoned" in FFH is only passed on to the survivor of a battle. So this only helps if your unit dies.

thats ok. its a minor buff. and you forget about units with withdrawl chance. they can still be poisoned if they withdraw from combat. if you want also throw a 15% withdrawl chance onto the Sliptip Guardsman.

This has potential.
I like the selamlik; it fits the imperial bureaucracy theme. I'll add it.

yay :)

well i just said tent because i know little about Fremen society. Sadus is a fremen title for judges that arethe equivilent of holy saints. Sadus Hall, Sadus Cave whatever. i think it would be cool for fremen either way.

Already in the mod; there are Sardaukar Legionaries and Sardaukar Noukkers.

oh cool :)

Why should this be Ordos?

not sure :) they were a Unit in Westwood game, and i read lasgun in the book glossary, and saw there were already Lasgun foot units in the mod, so thought hmm why not. it gives the Ordos a little something extra in the way of military might.

--------------

How about instead of giving Ordos a lot of UU tanks, why not give them a unique promotion that gives them a +10-15% defence boost, - 1 strength, +1 first strike chance, and a +6-8% heal rate in all territories and can heal while moving, but. This auto heal thing was by far one of my favourite things from the Westwood game. lets call this promo something like 'Portable Holtzman Generator'

another idea is an Ecaz Bersearker. im sure that from the Plethoa of wierd plants on their homeworld they must have something that makes the user become a bloodlusting killing machine. id suggest making an Ecaz Bersearker a Bladesman UU with a Bersearker promotion that give -1 defence, +1 first strike chance, +1 move and blitz. making these changes into a promotion ensures that when the unit upgrades into an Elaccan Gladiator they keep the benefits. but that Elaccan Gladiators built directly do not get these benefits.

Deliverator
Nov 03, 2009, 09:32 AM
c. Remind me, what does the unit regeneration thingie do? Is it just healing?

Regeneration is faster healing and heal while moving (march). I don't think it fits gholas well.

This is what I get for not being precise. By "regeneration" for gholas I meant the Respawn promotion (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11709). This is totally appropriate for gholas which are humans reincarnated by the Tleilaxu.

Basically I am proposing the same thing as Slvynn:

Suggestion - what about adding some promo to BTl units, limit units that can have it, and when they killed they come back as gholas exactly as Do Immortals in FFH.
They need to advance level again to get that promo again to being ressurected as ghola once more. Seems nice, balanced and easy to implement.


Units coming back from the dead like a more direct representation of what a ghola is. Perhaps the reborn unit can have new/different promotions, using some of the ideas from the current Axlotl tanks.

----

Another idea I had for a UU for Corrino is Laza Tigers, the remote controlled beasts used in the assassination attempt on Leto and Ghanima in Children of Dune.

Not sure what strength they should have or what enabling tech. Perhaps strength 6, +50% against melee, -50% against thopters, vehicles, suspensors, etc, enabled at Harsh Conditioning? Also, they could have Hidden Nationality to allow them to pick off units. Maybe this would not be a strict UU in that it wouldn't replace anything, but just be a unit that only Corrino can build? If we go with this idea they is a nice Warg model I would like to convert from Kohan II that with a reskin could make a very nice Laza Tiger. Having an animal unit of some kind would be good for variety.

This could replace the Imperial Militia UU, I don't think a militia is appropriate for Corrino anyway. If you have the feared elite Sardaukar, you have no need for militias.

Slvynn
Nov 03, 2009, 09:53 AM
agree with Deliverator :))

Laza Tigers is awesome idea, and HN units addition to game is awesome too (there are no HN units at the moment), and that would be unique assasination way interpretation in book.

Btw i didnt bought my mother-language transcriptions of whole series .
I bought yesterday english originals (few books, including 2 i have read already), and struggling through them (their tongue is bit complicated at times), but i do enjoy and understand.

And because mod represent and portray novels details, Laza is a very good pick

davidlallen
Nov 03, 2009, 10:04 AM
By "regeneration" for gholas I meant the Respawn promotion (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=11709). This is totally appropriate for gholas which are humans reincarnated by the Tleilaxu.

Oh, I see. That is interesting. Based on the *original* books, it seems there is only one copy at a time. But in the prequels, there is a scene with a roomful of gholas of the same guy. The current way, you can have multiple of the same; using respawn, you only ever have one, and you need to burn a promotion each time. What do you think? It may be worthwhile to try out the current way; as BTl, give yourself an axlotl tank and some experienced unit; then in the city with the tank, build another unit of the same type. You should see it start with the same promotions as the experienced one, probably minus one level on something.

Another idea I had for a UU for Corrino is Laza Tigers, the remote controlled beasts used in the assassination attempt on Leto and Ghanima in Children of Dune.

This seems really cool. I will add it with stub tiger art.

Slvynn
Nov 03, 2009, 10:33 AM
Edit: sorry wrong thread - i misposted.
moved to toher thread

Deliverator
Nov 03, 2009, 10:50 AM
That is interesting. Based on the *original* books, it seems there is only one copy at a time.

Yes, that's what springs to my mind when I think "ghola" - Duncan Idaho with metal Tleilaxu eyes...

Deliverator
Nov 03, 2009, 10:54 AM
This seems really cool. I will add it with stub tiger art.

Thinking more it should probably have a combat bonus against both guardsmen and melee, but a sizeable penalty when attacking cities.

Ahriman
Nov 03, 2009, 04:27 PM
Lasgun suspensor tank and cobra tank and trike - are their canon, and they ARE mercenaries.

What are these - and how does sticking a different weapon on a tank somehow make it mercenary?

Lasgun tanks were suggested before and may be worthwhile

I would think that a lasgun tank would basically be an anti-tank tank.
Thinking like lascannons in warhammer; very powerful, but hard to aim and hit small targets.

So more effective vs vehicles (that can't use shields to protect from it) than vs infantry (who are hard to hit and can use cover).

chem trooper can just have + bonus against melee and guardsman units, with slight collaterial additon, replacing grenadeer. (+25% with guardsman)

This seems interesting. Potentially though, this unit should be good *only* vs melee and guardsmen, and basically useless vs anything else. Chemical weapons vs a tank?
So, maybe make it strength 4, +100% strength vs melee and guardsmen, does collateral damage.

i would have thought the Ordos would be a big faction in the books.

Nope, Ordos don't exist in the books.

confusing chemical, biochemical, and biological

The important thing is not whether they are scientifically different, but whether they can have distinct gameplay effects and "feel". I worry that biological, chemical and biochemical won't really feel very different, as far as factional variation goes.
Consider the follownig factional specialities: diplomacy, water conservation, air power, industry/robotics, slavery/exploitation, trade, political influence/culture, biological weapons, chemical weapons, biochemical weapons. See my point?

a Solido Projector Cannon, increase the defence of the city and cause it to spawn a 'Projection' of any unit that attacks the city (or unit's stack if it is a UU) these Projections should start with a 'projection' promotion that gives -90% strength, has a chance to defend the stack first, and dies after combat.

Seems reasonable. Another implementation: make the unit create a "summoned" projection unit, with very high strength (so it will always be a stack defender), make it unable to attack (like machinegun), but make it have a damage cap of ~95%. That is, it can only do 5% damage. So, basically it soaks up one attack on the stack per turn, through misdirection, but without doing any significant damage in return.
So basic

if you want also throw a 15% withdrawl chance onto the Sliptip Guardsman.
Sounds possible.

unique promotion that gives them a +10-15% defence boost
Defense vs attack values are not easily implemented here. This is not the FFH codebase, we do not have separate attack/defense strengths, or separate attack/defense bonuses from promotions.

This auto heal thing was by far one of my favourite things from the Westwood game. lets call this promo something like 'Portable Holtzman Generator'
Why would a shield generator let you heal/replace injured/killed soldiers faster?

another idea is an Ecaz Bersearker.
We just added something like this.

This is what I get for not being precise. By "regeneration" for gholas I meant the Respawn promotion. This is totally appropriate for gholas which are humans reincarnated by the Tleilaxu.

So, something like Immortality. This is what I was proposing. I reposted it somewhere recently.

I don't think a militia is appropriate for Corrino anyway. If you have the feared elite Sardaukar, you have no need for militias.

Well, I think the idea was to represent that the Imperial levies do in fact make up the vast majority of the Imperial armies. The Sardaukar are just their super-elites.
Think Space Marines vs Imperial Guard from Warhammer40k.
The Sardaukar are a hand-picked elite recruited from Salusa Secundus. All the Houses have to provide levies to the Emperor, and these are ordinary soldiers.
(There is a conversation about the origins of the Sardaukar; the standard belief in the galaxy is that they come from the Imperial levies).

If you wanted though, you could keep to the Imperial theme of assault troops more by giving them improved Hardened Bladesmen rather than improved city defenders.

Another idea I had for a UU for Corrino is Laza Tigers
Why Corrino??
I guess I don't object to tigers (though... they're kinda strange when we're reallly modellnig at the regiment level), but they should probably be good only vs melee. Ranged soldiers can just shoot them.
I tend to lean away from Hidden Nationality. They don't work well; they're useless unless you have a big army of them (an army of tigers?), the AI uses them poorly, and your allies with open borders enter your territory and destroy them.

Based on the *original* books, it seems there is only one copy at a time.

I prefer this. Just straight permanent immortality, maybe losing a promotion and some experience each time, and only one immortal unit per ghola tank. (Losing experience without losing a promotion is a benefit, losing a promotion without losing experience is a large penalty).

davidlallen
Nov 03, 2009, 04:38 PM
This is what I get for not being precise. By "regeneration" for gholas I meant the Respawn promotion. This is totally appropriate for gholas which are humans reincarnated by the Tleilaxu.

Just straight permanent immortality, maybe losing a promotion and some experience each time, and only one immortal unit per ghola tank. (Losing experience without losing a promotion is a benefit, losing a promotion without losing experience is a large penalty).

We have been around in circles on this in the tleilaxu mechanics thread. Suppose I attach the promotion to a thopter unit, and the unit gets killed. Now a full new set of thopters flies out of the axlotl tank? Even if you limit it to foot units, where do all the new rifles and ammunition come from?

In the current implementation, you pay the full hammer cost for a unit, all you get for free is the promotions. This represents the experience of the single commander, who is the actual ghola.

Deliverator
Nov 03, 2009, 05:06 PM
Why Corrino??

Because House Corrino use trained Laza Tigers in Children of Dune, as I said. Whether we are modelling at a regiment level is depends on your interpretation. I'd rather keep it a bit wooly in my head - it's more fun that way.

Ahriman
Nov 03, 2009, 06:01 PM
Even if you limit it to foot units, where do all the new rifles and ammunition come from?

An immortal unit, when it dies, reappears in the capital city at very low health, and takes several turns to re-equip/heal to get back to full combat readiness.

The problem with the promotions method is that it is very untransparent. It is hard for the player to see how the mechanic works, and to understand what it is that is giving promotions to which units.

Immortality is very clear; its a promotion on a particular unit, and when that unit dies, you get it back.

Because House Corrino use trained Laza Tigers in Children of Dune, as I said.

They use the tigers basically as assassins, to hunt a couple of people. Don't you think it would be pretty weird to see armies of tigers charging at tanks and soldiers with guns?

Deliverator
Nov 03, 2009, 06:05 PM
They use the tigers basically as assassins, to hunt a couple of people. Don't you think it would be pretty weird to see armies of tigers charging at tanks and soldiers with guns?

We can put a national limit on them. The concept was that they should be used assassin-like to pick off wandering melee units. Perhaps rather than making them Hidden Nationality we could make them able to enter foreign borders.

Ahriman
Nov 03, 2009, 06:09 PM
We can put a national limit on them.

Sounds good.

make them able to enter foreign borders.

What does this accomplish? They still can't attack anything unless you're at war, and they'll still be catapulted from enemy borders when war is declared.

Jenaelha
Nov 03, 2009, 10:42 PM
I was thinking Face Dancers are definitely Mimics but could also be used to incite revolts, steal tech, sabatoge.

How about Honored Matres, now this is a combat unit. Plus enslavement (unit capture).

Slvynn
Nov 04, 2009, 01:59 AM
I think Laza Tigers should have some AI intepretation. They should not go gainst bad odds. AI should use them for worker killing. That will be nasty and awesome.
We can also add them Assasin promotion (same as FFH assasins)

Ahriman
Nov 04, 2009, 07:31 AM
How about Honored Matres, now this is a combat unit. Plus enslavement (unit capture).

Honored Matres don't fit in the timeline of this mod, which is around Dune and Children of Dune. They come many thousands of years later. I strongly opposed including them here.

AI should use them for worker killing
I don't like this; they're being used as assassins for killing important people, not for hunting down worker serfs building infrastructure.
It also won't be "nasty"; the AI already uses normal units to hunt down workers. What is the advantage to a unit that just does that, and doesn't attack other units? Wouldn't they be better off with a quad?
The only way this would be useful is if they were made invisible, but that would just be incredibly frustrating for a human to deal against (unless we add spots invisible to a bunch of units - like thopters, which I've suggested), and easy to exploit against the AI (which doesn't understand how to spot invisible units - even with detectors).

Slvynn
Nov 04, 2009, 07:34 AM
I don't like this; they're being used as assassins for killing important people, not for hunting down worker serfs building infrastructure.
It also won't be "nasty"; the AI already uses normal units to hunt down workers. What is the advantage to a unit that just does that, and doesn't attack other units? Wouldn't they be better off with a quad?
The only way this would be useful is if they were made invisible, but that would just be incredibly frustrating for a human to deal against (unless we add spots invisible to a bunch of units - like thopters, which I've suggested), and easy to exploit against the AI (which doesn't understand how to spot invisible units - even with detectors).


No, invisibility is not good. But they seem to be HN. (Lazas). HN and workjers work good. I think they may have Str 3-4 +100% melee -100% Vehicle, Assasin (targets weakest unit), Hidden Nationality.

Or just anti melee unit with ballista elephant mechanics - targets Melee units outside a city. Not assasin, normal unit, move 3. +100% melee -100% vehicle, can move in desert

I like more the bolded one - simplier, cooler, and usefull.

Ahriman
Nov 04, 2009, 07:48 AM
But they seem to be HN. (Lazas). HN and workjers work good.

Not really, the HN unit will just get destroyed as soon as it enters enemy territory (or before then, if you have open borders).

I tend to lean away from Hidden Nationality. They don't work well; they're useless unless you have a big army of them (an army of tigers?), the AI uses them poorly, and your allies with open borders enter your territory and destroy them.

with ballista elephant mechanics
I am unfamiliar with this unit. From which mod? What is the mechanic?

Slvynn
Nov 04, 2009, 07:58 AM
Not really, the HN unit will just get destroyed as soon as it enters enemy territory (or before then, if you have open borders).




I am unfamiliar with this unit. From which mod? What is the mechanic?


Khmer BTS UU
Ballista Elephant
Anti-Mounted +50% vs mounted as all phants
If its attack stack outside city it targets above all Mounted (preferable weaker units) units, and then guardians archer s etc.

That mean laza would be semi-assasin anti-melee unit that will pass through any units if it attack stacks, and will attack preferable melee units 1st, using well known vanilla BTS mechanics, which fits for LT very well.

We can add for it Melee and Great People (which is very rare case , and Atreides Heir is melee unit , right?)