Does anyone have any ideas for a small wonder for the Fascism style of government? Did a forum search, in the unit library there are a couple of buildings like the Reichstag, but I'm not sure these are entirely appropriate. I want it to reflect the warmongering image Fascism has, I will have it generate a Stormtrooper every few turns (a jumped up Infantry unit). I don't think it should reduce corruption like the secret police HQ under Communism, but I am unsure of what other traits to give it, maybe an increase in city production as well. If you have seen something good in other mods or have some fresh ideas I would like to hear about them.

To generate a Stormtrooper, why not simply call it, "Waffen-SS HQ?"

A Happiness generating SW could be, "The Nuremburg Rallies."

Unbuilt, but possible for many uses, would be the Volkshalle (“People's Hall”), a massive domed gathering place in Berlin.

-Oz

I think the best more appropriate small wonder for Fascism is a 2nd FP,just like communism. Maybe call it the Gestapo.

Both governments are actually remarkably 'alike' in the way their politics happen.

I'm working on my Epic Mod at the moment to really enhance AI handling of the gov so they don't self destruct in the late game by having their strigns pulled and waffling between Demo and Fascism between peace/war phase.

I've already managed to make the large AIs favour Fascism over Demo simply by changing the corruption to Mininal and increasing Town and City unit support slightly.

One thing I may use is a Submarine Pen, which will build submarines every 10 turns.

Hmmm, how about a nice Gas Chamber/Crematorium for the Germans, and for the Japanese, a slave labor brothel? Keep the troops nice and happy. Or perhaps a celebration monument to the Rape of Nanking? And for the Italians, a statue showing an aircraft spraying mustard gas on Ethiopians.

Err... Fascism is a thing, Nazism is another (and communism again another one).

Fascim = right wing.
Nazism = Left wing (they are socialists, in fact).

Oz, I thought of using one of Speer's "Grand Buildings" like the People's Hall or the Grand Arch but pics seem to be in short supply, only found models which make for crude images.

Politics aside, my considerations are this:
It is an industrial-era tech, so it should be a building/wonder from say 1800 onwards. I selected the Storm Trooper as the produced unit as people readily identify it with fascism, though there were Italian "blackshirt" fascists as well in the 20th century. As far as making it German/Nazi specific I can if I have to, though I want something a bit more generic, as I am already using a Nazi unit. I thought of something like a "National Culture center" but this seems a bit bland.

I am moving the "no culture produced without national majority" trait over to Communism, to represent the difficulties faced in collectivizing the rural/farming populations. Forced resettlement stays with Fascism. As Fascists/National Socialists are obsessed with installing their own culture into controlled territories, I think the Fascist government type should be strong on culture, along with aggressive conquest. I have considered having the small wonder put a culture producing building in every city, but I am afraid of skewing the "Cultural Victory" requirements in the game overall. Maybe something like a "Conqueror's Arch" might work, an enhanced version of Napoleon's Arch, what do you think? Maybe it could produce lots of culture in one city and make many citizens happy, like Shakespeare's Theater.

Oz, I thought of using one of Speer's "Grand Buildings" like the People's Hall or the Grand Arch but pics seem to be in short supply, only found models which make for crude images.

For Civ 3 at least three versions of the Volkshalle were done. Additionally the building for Civ 4 could be converted for Civ 3, too. As at present I don´t know the creators of the Civ 3 buildings and didn´t find any links to them any longer, I temporally attache the Civ 3 versions to this post.

I don´t agree with giving that government in general a lot of culture. In the way culture works for Civ 3, that government should have the xenophobic flag according to the weak support in conquered cities by the people living in that cities and the big expense in surpressing these people. In CCM barracks for this type of government give one happiness.

Edited: Removed the temporally attached zip-file.

... Well, I took "Reichstag" + "Stormtrooper" = Nazi. My bad.

I think the overarching problem is that "fascism" is both a governmental AND economic system, and, let's face it, our beloved C3 ain't great at that sort of combination/differentiation.

For the record, here's a pic of the Volkshalle.

Best,

Oz

how about Mein Kampf

how about Mein Kampf

I think that he is looking for something more generic, like maybe a statue of the Herrenvolk trampling the subhumans under his feet.

Civinator, thanks for the zip. I see the first has a wonder splash that is good, and that is what I could not find. Maybe I will just use this, as it does fit in with Fascism well, though it never actually existed. As far as your comments on culture and xenphobia go you are correct - in the SHORT term. But what about a century down the road? Most or perhaps ALL of those original city populations will have been eliminated entirely, and replaced by the new ethnic group, through cleansing, starvation, slavery, what have you. Then you will have strong national culture in all the conquered territories - it just takes time. Remember, this is exactly what the Nazis were planning to do with with the conquered territories in the USSR - eliminate the Slavic populations over time and resettle the entire land with german settlers. The Nazis never got far enough down the road to achieve their goals but I think my model accurately depicts what a successful Fascist regime would do, long term. Since Fascists are so ruthless I see them bringing outlying squares into line more quickly than Communists.

I don't think Mein Kampf would make a good wonder - it is just a book, and a poorly written one at that. At least Speer's architecture displays the kind of grandiosity that qualifies a building as a potential wonder - think Flavian Amphitheatre, Pyramids, Great Wall - architecture that awes.

yea but Mein Kampf kinda helped kick off the whole Nazi movement

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4e/Hitler_mein_kampf_reklame.jpg
this is what the wonder could look like

Yes, but Mein Kampf also gets heavily into the "Jewish Question", whereas a "generic" Fascist State might have other axes to grind; likewise it is of course directly linked with Naziism.

"Great Hall Of The People" would speak to any sort of Totalitarian grandiosity - just a thought.

Best,

oZ

yea but Mein Kampf kinda helped kick off the whole Nazi movement

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/4e/Hitler_mein_kampf_reklame.jpg
this is what the wonder could look like

I've made a Mein Kampf wonder: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=331748

I have considered having the small wonder put a culture producing building in every city, but I am afraid of skewing the "Cultural Victory" requirements in the game overall.

Small wonders cannot place improvements in every city.

Yes, but Mein Kampf also gets heavily into the "Jewish Question", whereas a "generic" Fascist State might have other axes to grind; likewise it is of course directly linked with Naziism.

"Great Hall Of The People" would speak to any sort of Totalitarian grandiosity - just a thought.

Ivan,

I agree with this, but perhaps something more along the lines of "Grand Barracks of the State," since it would appear that you want this wonder to auto-produce Über-infantry units. I would also suggest additionally giving said wonder "Reduces War Weariness in all Cities."

Is it just me, or is this whole discussion of a Wonder to glorify Fascism nauseating anyone else?

Is it just me, or is this whole discussion of a Wonder to glorify Fascism nauseating anyone else?

I try to see what our species does with an unflinching gaze. "Glorification" would - does - indeed nauseate me, as does the Inquisition, smallpox-infested blankets, Agent Orange, the Gulag Archipelago, the Cultural Revolution, genocide in general, ditto slavery & serfdom ...well, I trust you get the idea. But each horrendous state builds monuments to itself; often opponents in major war are equally abhorrent (Hitler v. Stalin).

In my eyes, the fact that it's called a "Wonder" in the game does not beget it glory, anymore than a momento mori glorifies death.

Sadly, we all too often simply do not live up to the better angels, and my own belief is that the worst we can do is turn a blind eye to ALL that we (homo sapiens sapiens - so ironic) have done, presently do, and shall undoubtedly do again.

As ever, I call upon the words of (of all people!) Grace Slick, whom I believe summed up some 99% of our species' history with:

"In loyalty to their kind
They cannot tolerate our rise
In loyalty to our kind
We cannot tolerate their obstruction."

Humbly,

Oz

Yes, but Mein Kampf also gets heavily into the "Jewish Question", whereas a "generic" Fascist State might have other axes to grind; likewise it is of course directly linked with Naziism.

"Great Hall Of The People" would speak to any sort of Totalitarian grandiosity - just a thought.

Best,

oZ

ok i see your point
I've made a Mein Kampf wonder: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=331748

nice work george :lol: at the Harry Potter wonder

and just to clarify i do not like Hitler or Mein Kampf

To think that I destroyed my health and now deal with pretty much constant pain courtesy of military service to read to this and read a bunch of ______________ discuss a wonder to fascism. I was really stupid to think that this country and civilization was worth defending. Fortunately, my son is not making that same mistake. Next time the terrorists try for the White House or Capitol, I hope that they score a direct hit.

+1 on your comments, Oz, though I can see where timerover51 might get the idea that someone would want to "glorify" Fascism with a wonder. My intent is not that, but instead to try to more accurately reflect this government type via a new improvement. It is peculiar to me, though, that only Communism got a small wonder for itself and nothing else, especially since it is already a low corruption government type. I think Feudalism at least should have gotten a small wonder as well that would put out special knights, and I plan on having for myself a more modern form of democracy later with its own financial wonder.

wolf brother, you are right about the "improvement in every city" checkbox of course. Doh! I was mulling over possible options without reviewing them in the editor again.

Fascism will not need its war weariness reduced, as it has none.

As far as naming, I think naming the Stormtrooper instead to "Fascist", same as the unit in CTP would make things a bit more generic, also maybe the small wonder could be named "The Great Party Hall" or just "The Grand Hall" or something close to that.

Hmm, I have noticed the Storm Trooper I have downloaded has what appears to be a submachinegun attack, this might come a bit early in the game, as it is not far after riflemen and way before Infantry if you follow the tech tree here right away. I wonder if anyone has seen a different unit like this with a rifle attack?

timerover, you really need to mellow out. Remember, this is only a game. How many "people" have you killed while taking over enemy cities in for your democracy so they can live comfortably under your benevolent rule? How many enemy workers have you grabbed and sent to slave for you in rags?
How many military units have you sent to their deaths? I take it you are not happy with the current state of political affairs. Well, many aren't. Hmm, I wonder if Obama built the Secret Police HQ, would this mean that less of our stimulus money would end up in the pockets of AIG executives? :D

Hmm, I have noticed the Storm Trooper I have downloaded has what appears to be a submachinegun attack, this might come a bit early in the game, as it is not far after riflemen and way before Infantry if you follow the tech tree here right away. I wonder if anyone has seen a different unit like this with a rifle attack?

Try GIDustin's "German Wehrmacht" unit ... ?

the German infantry from PTW might work

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=69446&highlight=PTW+WWII+units

Edit: and i know you didnt want a SMG attack but these are just really pretty
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=174507&highlight=MoscaTnT

In the Final Fantasy mod, the three best governments for each alignment (good, neutral and evil) have their own SW....

For Imperialism (think Corporate Fascism for the evil factions), they get the Shinra Building, which reduces corruption (ala FP) and produces Turks (HN spy types) every 5 turns.... Democracy (good factions) has the "Constitutional Government" SW that reduces corruption and produces a "Citizen Militia" unit every 5 turns (Basically a High Def, low attack, no maintainence cost unit to represent trained armed citizens defending their country), and the Constitutional Moncarchy government available to Neutral factions allows a "Igros Castle" (famous summer palace in one of the games) that produces a "Royal Guard" unit (balanced attack and def) every 5 turns and reduces corruption.. I've thought of doing similar with other mods/scenarios that allow one to change governments.

Edit: I also add that while I despise Nazis and Fascism in general, deliberately censoring history, IMO, does more harm than good... If we were to remove EVERYTHING that was tied in with unpleasant bits of history, then we'd have to remove the Great Wall (often sarcastically called the "longest cemetery in the world" for good reason), the Communist Secret Police HQ, the Forbidden Palace, the Great Pyramids, Sun Tzu's Art of War, the fragging MANHATTAN PROJECT, the Internet, the Colosseum city improvment, the Panzer UU, the Keshik UU (after all, the Mongols under Ghengis Khan killed more people than Hitler and Stalin COMBINED), Ghengis Khan (Temujin) himself should be removed for that matter, as well as Queen Isabella and the Spanish Conquistador UU, Mao Zedong, the Russian Cossack UU (due to the Khmelnytsky Uprising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmelnytsky_Uprising)), Jaguar Warriors, the Communism Government and Fascism itself....

After all, these things represent great evils that were, in many cases, almost as bad as the Nazis (even if not on the same scale) and should be removed so we can have a nice, fluffy butterfly and bunny game without any way to represent any of the unpleasant, nasty and cruel things that happened in history, because, after all, the best way to avoid repeating history is to completely forget it, right? :sarcasm:

A little off-topic, but why remove the internet for CivIII-Fluffy?

Oz, that German Wehrmacht unit looks like it's worth a try. Do you have a link to the unit thread? When I ran a google search, the only thing that comes up is this thread. tried a search of the units download section by Ind/Mod era under both author/unit name - no joy. Searching the Unit forum in general brings up some different units, but not that one. MoscaTnT's unit is the one I have now. It IS very pretty and fits in well as a generic unit - but it's got that submachinegun.

Maybe a corruption reducing small wonder is the way to go, hard to think of another really useful attribute. Hikaro, those small wonders you posted are good concepts, and make sense. Currently, I have the secret police HQ generating a "partisan" (by utahjazz, I think) every 5 turns, which is a rifleman type unit good for Ind. era defense, I was thinking of changing that to a "Shock Worker", double the work rate of normal workers, model would be the slave worker, cannot be joined to cities. This would represent the political prisoners taken and sent to work camps, especially under Stalin, and a Communist governent could then have more workers to join to captured cities to get that cultural majority quicker. Again this is "evil", but I agree with your comments regarding the modelling of such things in the game, And the civ series is not a "fluffy bunny game" for 6 year olds. Does everyone remember all the screaming that went on when what's-his-name made the Fascist Patch for civ2? LOL.

A little off-topic, but why remove the internet for CivIII-Fluffy?

What has been seen can't be unseen :lol:

Edit: I also add that while I despise Nazis and Fascism in general, deliberately censoring history, IMO, does more harm than good... If we were to remove EVERYTHING that was tied in with unpleasant bits of history, then we'd have to remove the Great Wall (often sarcastically called the "longest cemetery in the world" for good reason), the Communist Secret Police HQ, the Forbidden Palace, the Great Pyramids, Sun Tzu's Art of War, the fragging MANHATTAN PROJECT, the Internet, the Colosseum city improvment, the Panzer UU, the Keshik UU (after all, the Mongols under Ghengis Khan killed more people than Hitler and Stalin COMBINED), Ghengis Khan (Temujin) himself should be removed for that matter, as well as Queen Isabella and the Spanish Conquistador UU, Mao Zedong, the Russian Cossack UU (due to the Khmelnytsky Uprising (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khmelnytsky_Uprising)), Jaguar Warriors, the Communism Government and Fascism itself....

After all, these things represent great evils that were, in many cases, almost as bad as the Nazis (even if not on the same scale) and should be removed so we can have a nice, fluffy butterfly and bunny game without any way to represent any of the unpleasant, nasty and cruel things that happened in history, because, after all, the best way to avoid repeating history is to completely forget it, right? :sarcasm:

I am a military historian, looking at getting a doctorate in military history. I am not recommending censoring history, that is already being done quiet well in the US school system. I am objecting to an individual seeking to promote a hideous form of government, and the willingness of members of the forum to help him. You __________ see a request for a Wonder, I see the death camps and crematoriums, mustard agent sprayed on Ethiopians, the Rape of Nanking, the Bataan Death March, prisoners being beheaded and eaten and burned alive. I have no interest in being politically correct, and have decided that I no longer agree with Voltaire's statement:
"I may disagree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." My view now is that if I really disagree with what you say, I may just ram your teeth down your throat.

Oz, that German Wehrmacht unit looks like it's worth a try. Do you have a link to the unit thread?

Link? We don't need no stinkin' link (please tell me you catch the movie reference :) ) - this is an OLD puppy (2002). I'll put it here for now and add it to the unit db if there's any interest.

Best,

Oz

timerover51, I appreciate your point, but please understand that discussing what sort of Wonder would be appropriate for the Fascist government in the game to build is not the same thing as "seeking to promote" it - any more than (say) discussing what sort of units would be appropriate for a medieval crusades scenario is the same thing as promoting the crusades. The question is about how fascists have or would seek to glorify themselves, not about how we would seek to glorify them!

I'll ignore the rather violent tinge of your last post but ask you, please, not to repeat it.

Oz, thanks for the file, I will take a look at this unit and see if it is good. Maybe it got lost in the hacking incident awhile back. I'll try that PTW rifleman too.

timerover51, for your information I abhor both Fascism and Communism. Both forms of government are, IMO, extremely evil and if left alone will self destruct over time (witness the fall of the USSR). However, Voltaire's statement regarding free speech is timeless and constitutes one of the fundamental values of our own system of government. Without it, we ourselves might march down the path towards fascism.

A little off-topic, but why remove the internet for CivIII-Fluffy?

I take it you have never accidentally stumbled across 4-chan? :eek:

That, and to sum up what outdoor humorist Patrick McManus wrote in his book Kerplunk!:
It used to be that all the different kinds of wackos sat out in their little isolated cabins or apartments somewhere. Each of his particular ilk. Now a wacko can get on the Internet and find the other nine wackos in the world who are just like him. Then they form a club and try to figure out some way to blow up something.

...Which is entirely too true.

@Timerover: My great-grandfather is Jewish, I have a Jewish great-uncle and cousins, and my great-uncle's current lady-friend (she's a widow and he's a widower, and they were both mutual friends for a long time) is a Holocaust survivor...

TRUST me, I doubt you could meet anyone MORE opposed to the Third Reich and what it stood for....

....However, that is NOT what this thread is about! Saying that ALL fascist governments were anti-semitic is like saying that all Wehrmacht soldiers actively participated in the butchery carried out in the death camps, which is patently false... As a matter of fact, one of the SAFEST places for Jews in Axis-held territory was Fascist Italy!

Fascism != racism.... Like Plot said, this thread is about what kind of government specific wonders/improvements Fascist governments should have in a historical simulation, just like discussing Wehrmacht troops for a WWII scenario doesn't mean we support the Nazi regime, nor does debating 13th century Mongolian unit lines mean we support the mass-slaughter unleashed by the Mongol Hordes (which is STILL listed as the worst genocide in HISTORY! Don't believe me? just look it up in the Guinness Book of World Records.... Believe it or not, Hitler doesn't even make the #2 slot: STALIN does, and he was on OUR side!!!), etc.

And I completely agree with Ivan (even though that quote was NOT actually said by Voltaire, but misatributed to him by one of his biographers): The purpose of the 1st Amendment was NOT to protect the popular opinions and ideas, but the UN-popular ones....

....After all, a lynch mob COULD be considered the most pure form of democracy there is. ;)

Please try to keep it vaguely on-topic, people.

Please try to keep it vaguely on-topic, people.

+1 on this suggestion.

Ok, I realized I already have the German PTW extra rifleman, since I have Civ3: Complete, but it appears there is no pedia or units32 icons anywhere for it. This is strange, since there ARE some pedia icons for some stuff (for example, I put in the German Heavy MG as a generic WWI era offensive unit to match up with Infantry and there are icons for that buried in there), but others are totally missing. Were icons done by the civ3 art team ever posted up somewhere for these extras?

What I am thinking of for the small wonder is as follows: People's Great Hall as the building, cost same as secret police HQ. Produces a fascist every 5 turns, and generates 1 culture per turn. Does reduce corruption, AND in addition allows building of larger Armies, requires a victorious army to build. Anyone see a problem with these flags? The one question I have is this: Since there is already a building that allows larger armies (Pentagon) will this double up and allow the insertion of an additional unit into the army beyond the normal allowance? I really don't want this to happen. Armies are quite different from stock in my mod, the Mil. Academy GENERATES armies, you are not allowed to construct them, and shield cost is low so the AI won't disband them. Default units in an Army is only 2, increases to 3 with the Pentagon, which is now available with the tech Mechanized Warfare.
I want the additional Army size to reflect on the warmongering nature of Fascism, but I don't want that advantage to continue through the Modern era.

I'm pretty sure the units32 are in the normal Conquests unit32, below the Vanilla and above the Conquests units. As for the PediaIcons, they are either in the PTW/Extras/WWII/Art/Civilopedia/Icons/Units, or in the actual PTW/Art/Civilopedia/Icons/Units. I'm not sure, though, as I'm doing this from memory.

They don't have pediaicons.

They don't have pediaicons.

Björn has done some ! They are on GIDustin :

http://www.civ3files.com/cgi-bin/Civ3Files.cgi?Page=CivFiles&Contributor=100032

Yep, no pedia icons in those folders. Björn's are good icons, but they don't have that original civ3 art feel to them. Maybe I will stick with MoscaTnT's unit, I can always rationalize that a Fascist gov. would be ahead of the curve on developing weapons, and has built an early submachinegun for their elite forces. :D

On reflection, maybe having the reduced corruption and the extra army ability is a bit too powerful for the small wonder if a human player were to switch to Fascism, though what I am thinking of is the AI's relative inability to use armies effectively. Maybe if I left out corruption reduction, and just had the extra army ability along with more culture per turn and a slight increase in production for the city... hmm what do you guys think of that idea? I still want to know about the extra wonder/additional unit in the army flag, though.

On reflection, maybe having the reduced corruption and the extra army ability is a bit too powerful for the small wonder if a human player were to switch to Fascism, though what I am thinking of is the AI's relative inability to use armies effectively.

As far as armies go, I'd change them to be 1 slot and have +3 HP, rename them "Division" or "Corps" and have them auto-produced by a small wonder, such as the military academy, every twenty-turns or so. Its not perfect, but that AI will use such a system.

I alreay have the Military Academy auto-producing Armies every 25 turns. Are you saying increase the HP of the Army unit itself? Does that work? I've never tried it.

I find the AI does tend to use auto-generated 10 shield armies fairly well, loading them with 2 units most of the time, although it tends to choose atrocious unit combinations (Cavalry-MI, Rifleman-Tank, and so on). I fear even if your idea works the net effectiveness of the Army itself may not be increased, as the AI may still tend to put less than ideal units into it.

On another topic, maybe requiring the Fascist small wonder to need a victorious Army is not such a good idea, as this may hamper the AI building it, if they have no armies in the field, which may be most of the time before they get around to building the Mil. Academy, which does not come all that long before Fascism.

Are you saying increase the HP of the Army unit itself? Does that work? I've never tried it.

Yes, it works. Wolfhart has written up a study of Armies (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=227001).

I find the AI does tend to use auto-generated 10 shield armies fairly well, loading them with 2 units most of the time, although it tends to choose atrocious unit combinations (Cavalry-MI, Rifleman-Tank, and so on). I fear even if your idea works the net effectiveness of the Army itself may not be increased, as the AI may still tend to put less than ideal units into it.

Making the Army only have one transport slot will take care of the idiotic combination of units the AI likes to put together in army units. The +3 HP counter-balances it. Basically the idea is that this particular unit has such experience and the unit has grown so large as to constitute its own Division or Corps.

On another topic, maybe requiring the Fascist small wonder to need a victorious Army is not such a good idea, as this may hamper the AI building it, if they have no armies in the field, which may be most of the time before they get around to building the Mil. Academy, which does not come all that long before Fascism.

I never give any wonder 'Requires A Victorious Army' because you all-but never see that particular wonder actually built. The requirements are simply too great, especially for the AI; one must have an Army, load it up with proper unit(s), use it intelligently, and start a war just to kill something with it, all just to build this one wonder.