Version 0.9.7 Released 22 Oct 09*

Updated RevDCM component to 2.6

Includes BetterAI 0.81M, significantly improves AI and performance as CAR mod components are incorporated
Super spy AI adjustments - AI chooses useful promotions including logistics
Updated to BUG 4.1.1, and BULL 1.0
Added the Global Warming mod by Minor Annoyance
Show Hidden Attitude mod merged and made a controllable interface option
The AI now is more Revolution aware and will keep its cities happier to avoid revolts
domestic advisor liberate city fix
Re-balanced BarbarianCiv for early barb settling as well as Barbarian World option
Improved German and Spanish translations, nearly fully translated and fully playable in German and Spanish
Fixed issue with "X have chosen to give up their independence" text
RevolutionDCM options can no longer be changed in a multiplayer game session
RevolutionDCM options from the options screen now update immediately (no longer required to reload when adjusting options in the RevDCM tab, accessible by pressing ctrl + alt + o in game)
Revolution watch advisor always shows national effects, and national effects are displayed in the city screen rev bar mouseover
Various BUG 4.1 fixes to civlerts and autolog to work with Revolutions
Modmodder & Scenario maker update notes


Fixed "Start as Minors" option in scenarios, this option now works as intended with no adverse consequences in a WBS file (scenario)
Interdependent random event fix woc
RevolutionDCM "debug" option becomes obsolete
Limited religion and choose religion code ported to BUG 4.1 standard
Revolution Inquisitions code ported to BUG 4.1 standard
Inquisition code adjustments to Revolutions mod and non-revolution mod effects


Minor changes to LoR leaders
Repacked Art
Minor adjustments to some units


Let me know any issues with the current build. Keep in mind that we are nearing the end of beta development. I assume a full release will be out by Christmas, basically we are just waiting on the next RevDCM update which will fully support multiplayer.

Also of note for the 0.9.7 build, a new version 0.9.7a was released today, it's an important release, as it fixes a critical bug found in the LSystem files, reported yesterday (if you notice a critical bug, please report it, so I can squash it, I try to be fast on critical issues if they are found). This bug though has to be pretty rare, since it was in 0.9.6c, and never saw it reported. Simply download the current version, and reinstall to update.

LoR: 0.9.7a changelog

Fixed rare critical bug reported in LSystem files (full version only, does not effect light)
Fixed longstanding link issue with Legends Civilopedia Section
Added new functionality to civilopedia to list mulitple civs for a leader


*version 0.9.7a released 25 Oct 09

Version 0.9.7b Released 27 Oct 09

Fixed broken Spanish Royal Galleon model (critical art bug on some video cards)
Added link to FAQ homepage when mod installs, so users can quickly check out LoR's homepage
Removed AI free techs for hard difficulty levels when Start as Minors selected (AI's will start with defensive archer to guard against cheese rush on high difficulty)

Good to see you resolved the issues with the Civilopedia, very nice. I don't know if this is the right place to put it, but I started playing the 0.9.7 version yesterday and I noticed that every time I attack in MP LAN or one of the other human players attacks, the game goes OOS. When a unit defends there is no problem, only if a human player attacks himself. It is a really strange bug. I tried every combination of quick combat (on, off, only defense on, only attack on, etc) but it didn't help. In the end we reverted back to the 0.9.6 version and no problems there at all. I've been playing LoR since the start on LAN and never had problems till now. Revolutions was off, only dynamicCiv, standard DCM, barbarian civs and techdiffusion were on as parameters.

Hello.

I have been playing 0.97a for a few hours, and the first thing I want to say is "thank you!" for enabling features I had been longing for since the begining of Civ4, especially:
- the ability for a unit to sit and heal unless an enemy comes by.
- the cancellation of go-to orders when an enemy is spotted.
I also appreciate the worts enemy on-screen warning.
:)

The suspended project production decay warning is a great idea too. However, it doesn't seem to be working perfectly: I put a settler on hold and it warned me I would start to lose hammers in only 5 turns, while it is actually 10. Later on, it stopped working at all, I can't tell why. This is the only problem I have found so far.

There are many new things I'm eager to explore in this new release. It seems you have modified the cost of some technologies, notably Iron working... I wonder what kind of impact it will have on the game.

Anyway, great job.

A major fix is out for LoR 0.9.7, so LoR 0.9.7b is released, simply redownload and install to update.

LoR: 0.9.7b

Fixed broken Spanish Royal Galleon model (critical art bug on some video cards)
Added link to FAQ homepage when mod installs, so users can quickly check out LoR's homepage
Removed AI free techs for hard difficulty levels when Start as Minors selected (AI's will start with defensive archer to guard against cheese rush on high difficulty)

Phungus - you, Achilles and the rest of the team continue to do a HELL of a frickin job! :)

I know you've been doubting yourself a bit of late - don't.

Plenty of mods have come and gone since the days of Keymod, Sevomod and others showed just what could be done. The attention to detail, and the quality assurance that you guys put into what's essentially a labour of love is absolutely astounding, and vindicates the potential first invested in those tentative early steps.

You guys are continuing to do the truly incredible... I'm having genuine and pronounced difficulties attempting to vocabularise (is that even a word? LOL) or appropriately define the respect I have for what you guys have accomplished.

Don't stop now, you're nearly at Version 1.0!!! :) :goodjob:

There is a problem with the forest promotions for melee units. They don't get the extra strength when attacking. even if they are promoted to level 3 they still lose. And there are no recording of this in the combat log.

No, the promotion bonus is being applied. You can check this by World Buildering in Units and seeing the % odds they get with, and without the woodsman promotion in forest. The problem is all combat modifiers aren't being displayed. This is a bug that slipped through in the RevDCM 2.6 core. I found it and reported it yesterday, I'm pretty surprised it wasn't caught earlier. I have it listed in the list of known bugs, and this will be fixed as soon as possible. In fact I have a couple other minor bugs I've squashed, but I'm waiting on the fix for this one before I updated, since it's the biggest deal.

Can I still win this :confused:

You're in a tuff spot. My advice would be to cut research and try to get money, also consider revolting to Nationalism along with other warmonger civics, like Police State in order to quickly get troops (draft will work well for you). Move about 2/3rds of your troops (siege being the most important) over to your eastern border with Portugal, and mass upgrade as many cannons as you can to artillery in the couple turns it takes you to move your troops. Move the rest of your army (about 1/3 of it) to your nothern border with Portugal, and use that stuck for defense, again siege is the most important part of your army. Strike as soon as you can, try to immediately take his two cities to the west that have oil. Then just try to take as much as Portugal as you can. Once your invasion peters out declare peace and focus on Important war civics, like Industrialism, and try to conquer the rest of Portugal as quickly as you can.

Not sure if that will work, but it's the best advice I can give. Remember, even though you're in dead last place, you're in the Industrial era which is sort of an advantage for humans. But you need to get oil so you can leverage your tactical advantage over the AI.

New version up. It is save game compatible, still a 0.9.7 version. Mainly repackaging and re-releasing the whole chebang because of the red blob issue with Troopers (flanking infantry units for Mech infantry), and a bug with ACO causing combat modifiers not displaying in the combat hover pane. Both these bugs were major enough to warrent a complete new download, so that new users didn't download a bugged version. The next update will incorporate the updated BBAI, and UP releases by jdog in a week or so, and this will be released as a patch as no major bugs will be fixed in it (barring any new bugs being uncovered, I'm crossing my fingers).

Changelog:

Version 0.9.7c Released 1 Nov 09

LoR: 0.9.7c
Fixed ACO component. Combat modifiers now display in ACO hover display.
Fixed bad path in the art defines file for the Mech infantry flanking infantry units (troopers), fixes "red blobs"
Fixed civilization button in Leader Head screen in the civilopedia. The button now links to the correct civ, instead of always directing to the Zulu
Fixed top 5 wonders/Cities screen in the Info Screen section. Built Wonder list now properly generates.
Fine tuned Start as minors starting units code (was granting unequal number of starting defensive units for some AIs on high difficulty with start as minors selected)
Some minor fixes to BUG UI issues (stagnant city with 1 food left calculating it would grow next turn), and Inquisitor AI logic (AI was not aware it was maxed out with 3 inquisitors and attempted to get more, no real effect to LoR, but a waste of processor time)
Tweaked Techs:

Theology now requires Lit instead of Aesthetics (spread rate of christianity increased, as well as granted extra missionary to compensate)
Changed chemistry pre req from Military Science to Gunpowder, units enabled by Chemistry have had Military Science Req added (Grenadier, Ship of the Line). This change should allow more user options in the early Industrial tech selection, while not signicantly changing unit progression
To facilitate above change, Steel now requires Military Science. Cannon moved to Steel, instead of Chemistry.

Tweaks to Units:

Removed +10% bonus to archery units for heavy footmen. Pikeman -10% to city attack.
Cavalry now ignore first strikes
Swapped Retreat promos on Barbary Corsairs (gets Damage Control), and 54th Infantry (recieves commando, and still gets flanking1).
King's Yeomanry gets +50% strength in Forests and Hills, looses some first strikes (1-2, instead of 2-4). +100% bonus to Knights and Heavy Footman, instead of just defensive bonus.
Barrage promotion line opened up to Naval Units (only effects Bismark), Bismark swaps Drill2 with Barage1 promotion.

I take it the lack of comments is due to the fact no one has been able to break the mod in 0.9.7c yet. That's good.

Anyone have any balancing issues they want to bring up?

Did the change to Techs revolving around Military Science have the desired effect (I was trying to remove the bottle neck along that lower path, while simultaneously not altering the standard unit progression of the game)?

Only thing that I can think of off the top of my head is the paratroopers, that I don't like. Or rather, the fact that they deprecate. I realized, once I was able to build Air Cav and SOF units, I began conserving my Paratroopers like endangered animals. They fill a niche that neither of those units can really fulfill entirely.

I use SOF units to take out workers, reinforcements, lines of communication (Roads), and critical infrastructure (access to Iron, Aluminum, Oil, etc) to keep the defender on their heels as well as cripple their military infrastructure.

I honestly don't use Air Cav much, because I view them as a weaker version of a gunship that can capture cities. It has a use, but I don't usually send helicopters alone, and treat them more as close support for ground forces. I look at their movement range (4) and then the paradrop range (7) and I opt to never upgrade my paratroopers.

As I said, I use Paratroopers as a rapid-deployment forward-presence. What I mean when I say that, is that I use them for targets of opportunity and for quick reinforcement. For example, if I clean out a city, and I (for some reason) have no available forces to capture it- I have paratroopers on reserve for that purpose; Or if I find a weakly reinforced city during an airstrike or recon mission, I'll put troops there to either divert incoming OPFOR or, if they don't divert, to capture the city and hopefully split incoming enemy defenses.

I feel that by obsoleting the Paratrooper with the Air Cav, it may as well be obsoleting the Transport Ship when you get an Air Port.

phungus420
I take it the lack of comments is due to the fact no one has been able to break the mod in 0.9.7c yet. That's good.

I've just installed 0.9.7c light, launched new game and found that:
- there is no interface altogether (i.e. just map with units, nothing else);
- most of the RevDCM options (IDW and below) turned off.

0.9.6 worked just fine :\

Ensure you are launching as an admin. Otherwise revert back to 0.9.6c for now, there are some machine specific bugs that can pop up that could cause this, that wol't be fixed in 0.9.7. I'm going to try a possible solution with 0.9.8 where the installer will split out the User Settings folder from the mod and put it outside of the Program Files directory. This will mean Vista and Windows 7 users will no longer need to launch as admin, and I think it will also fix this bug.

On your end try this:

1)Go into LoR's folder (it will be along the Program Files path in the BtS/mods directory), right click on the User Settings folder and select "cut"
2)Browse back to BtS's main directory, inside you'll see a bunch of files and shortcuts to folders that are Civ4 user folders such as "saves", "Custom Assets", and "mods" click on one of these shortcuts. This will take you into the folder the shortcut is specifying.
3)Go outside this folder into it's main Parent Directory (the BtS directory along the My Games path), you should see all the folders here like "saves" and "mods" and such that there were shortcuts to in the main BtS directory in the Program Files path you were just in, but this time they are the actual folders, and not shortcuts to the folders.
4)Right click and select "create new folder" name the folder "LoR" (no quotation marks), then paste the User Settings folder you previously cut into this new folder.
5)Start up LoR, and see if this fixes your lack of interface issue.

Here's how I'm doing on my current game. All I can think of is building my attack-stack in case monty gets jumpy (he's been all over the board with wars.)

Ensure you are launching as an admin. Otherwise revert back to 0.9.6c for now, there are some machine specific bugs that can pop up that could cause this, that wol't be fixed in 0.9.7. I'm going to try a possible solution with 0.9.8 where the installer will split out the User Settings folder from the mod and put it outside of the Program Files directory. This will mean Vista and Windows 7 users will no longer need to launch as admin, and I think it will also fix this bug.

On your end try this:

1)Go into LoR's folder (it will be along the Program Files path in the BtS/mods directory), right click on the User Settings folder and select "cut"
2)Browse back to BtS's main directory, inside you'll see a bunch of files and shortcuts to folders that are Civ4 user folders such as "saves", "Custom Assets", and "mods" click on one of these shortcuts. This will take you into the folder the shortcut is specifying.
3)Go outside this folder into it's main Parent Directory (the BtS directory along the My Games path), you should see all the folders here like "saves" and "mods" and such that there were shortcuts to in the main BtS directory in the Program Files path you were just in, but this time they are the actual folders, and not shortcuts to the folders.
4)Right click and select "create new folder" name the folder "LoR" (no quotation marks), then paste the User Settings folder you previously cut into this new folder.
5)Start up LoR, and see if this fixes your lack of interface issue.

I've tried that solution, unfortunately with no effect. BTW, maybe log file would help you? For example, I see following strings at pythonerr2.log:

01:50:59 INFO : BugCore - creating uninitialized mod NJAGC
01:50:59 INFO : BugCore - creating uninitialized mod Scores
01:50:59 INFO : BugCore - creating uninitialized mod MainInterface
01:50:59 INFO : BugCore - creating uninitialized mod CityScreen

Does it tell you anything? I can provide full file if necessary. Also, I wonder maybe problem somehow related to language version of OS, non-latin symblos in name of "My documents" folder?..

P.S. Yeah, I've searched at national civfanatics forum (http://www.civfanatics.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=10027) and it seems that lack of interface is related to new version of BUG and cyrillic symbols :(

Yeah, I've searched at national civfanatics forum (http://www.civfanatics.ru/forum/index.php?showtopic=10027) and it seems that lack of interface is related to new version of BUG and cyrillic symbols :(

Interesting information. The best thing for you to do would be to download the BUG mod, and see if you can replicate this with BUG 4.1. If so post it in the BUG mod forums bug reports thread with the same link and same information about cyrillic symbols and the BUG team will fix things. Once it was fixed in the BUG mod, the fix will be folded into the next update of LoR.

Interesting information. The best thing for you to do would be to download the BUG mod, and see if you can replicate this with BUG 4.1. If so post it in the BUG mod forums bug reports thread with the same link and same information about cyrillic symbols and the BUG team will fix things. Once it was fixed in the BUG mod, the fix will be folded into the next update of LoR.

I've tried separate installation of BUG 4.1 mod and interface bug with it is confirmed. I'll write about it at BUG forum, though I doubt that they would bother to fix issue with some localization.

Did the lack of combat info - combat %'s not showing - get fixed yet?
I'm in the middle of a really good game and I would really like to fix it if possible.

Is there a quick or hot fix I can do rather than an install, because i'm using some altered xlm files?

Did the lack of combat info - combat %'s not showing - get fixed yet?
This is fixed in 0.9.7c, yes.
Is there a quick or hot fix I can do rather than an install, because i'm using some altered xlm files?
Sorry no. However you can copy your XML folder over to some other place so it isn't uninstalled when LoR updates, then use winmerge to reapply your custom XML changes.

I've tried separate installation of BUG 4.1 mod and interface bug with it is confirmed. I'll write about it at BUG forum, though I doubt that they would bother to fix issue with some localization.
Actually the BUG team is really big on this sort of thing. They worked their butts off to make BUG Mac compatible, and have always fixed bugs like yours when they find out about them. You should really report it to them, I'm sure they'll get on it. There may be no one with cyrillic characters to check their bug fixes though, so they may need to use you to check anything they come up with if you're willing to help out.

A little feedback for you, Phungus. Playing the latest version ("C"), as El Cid, and I'm just coming up on 1700 AD with Assembly Line coming in shortly (just to let you know how deep I've gone), on Marathon speed. The tech tree changes have worked out well; everything seems to be "natural". No hangs/glitches/crashes (other than the usual BTS memory bleed problems) - very stable. :goodjob:

Quibbles: The Conquistador in LoR is a useless UU. It comes too late to be used as an Explorer (heck, why build them when you can build Curris), and it doesn't get Medic promos (which is about the only thing Explorers are good for anyway). While the default Conq from BTS is grossly historically inaccurate, it is truly unique (the only mounted unit with terrain defense), has awesome graphics, and is just a ton of fun to play with (the most important criteria for a game, IMHO). My recc for Spain would be to restore the default Conq as the Spanish UU, or create a new one that's been advocated before ("Tercio" - a Musket replacement with a hefty bonus vs Mounted and Melee). BTW, The Barbarly Corsair is still godawful fun and extremely pretty (great job by AZ).

The whole project seems to be coming along quite nicely. No balance issues, or problems. Actually, the thing that impresses me the most is the replayability of the whole thing. I started this game, played fairly deep, and had to put it aside for a couple of weeks. When I came back to it, I decided to start over. With Start As Minors, Barb Civ, and the other components (and new random seed, ofc), it was a totally different game. That's frickin' awesome. :goodjob: Actually, if I get around to it I might post the start for this game - the map turned out to be alot of fun to play.

Thanks for the feedback. With regards to the conquistador it's mainly designed to be a powerful Terra Style map UU that is great for rushing Barb Cities or backwards civs that spawned if barbarian civ was enabled in the New World; it is not meant to be a powerful UU for fighting other top slot players, but is instead meant to take down backwards civs. Is it not useful in this role? I am going to keep it as a Pathfinder replacement, so do you have any specific ideas on how you'd like to buff it so it's more suited to it's intended role (including being a cheap and useful unit to attack civs that have fallen behind on non terra maps)?

Thanks for the feedback. With regards to the conquistador it's mainly designed to be a powerful Terra Style map UU that is great for rushing Barb Cities or backwards civs that spawned if barbarian civ was enabled in the New World; it is not meant to be a powerful UU for fighting other top slot players, but is instead meant to take down backwards civs. Is it not useful in this role? I am going to keep it as a Pathfinder replacement, so do you have any specific ideas on how you'd like to buff it so it's more suited to it's intended role (including being a cheap and useful unit to attack civs that have fallen behind on non terra maps)?

The circumstance you described doesn't seem to apply to any games I've played. :lol: By the time Pathfinders come in, all the Barb cities are either full-fledged civs, or gone. Either way, if I want the city, I'll load up my Royal Galleons with Curris and Cannons; why mess around with Pathfinders/Conqs? Frankly, I've never built a Pathfinder for anything (kind of a waste of a unit). I'd suggest eliminating the Pathfinder class entirely, and for a second UU for Spain I'd reccommend either the BTS Conq, or the Tercio.

Actually I have been playing PerfectWorld recently (which is basically a terra map) as well.
I find that with barb world and barb civ's turned on, that by the time you discover the new world it is mostly populated and to a tech level only a few tech's down from the new world.
This didnt used to be the case with out barb civ's turned on - when you discovered the new world it would be partly populated with a couple of barb civs who were much lower level than the old world.

I can see why the new Conquistadore wouldn't be very useful in this scenario.

Actually I have been playing PerfectWorld recently (which is basically a terra map) as well.
I find that with barb world and barb civ's turned on, that by the time you discover the new world it is mostly populated and to a tech level only a few tech's down from the new world.
This didnt used to be the case with out barb civ's turned on - when you discovered the new world it would be partly populated with a couple of barb civs who were much lower level than the old world.

I can see why the new Conquistadore wouldn't be very useful in this scenario.

Yeah, the map I'm playing on with this El Cid game is a Perfectworld script, also. Standard-size (equates to Large, I guess - Perfectworld maps tend to be bigger than normal), with 12 Civs at start. Barbs start settling down and filling in spaces pretty quick after game start. I haven't come across any Barb cities after Astronomy that would be something a) that I would want (usually tundra garbage - the AI can have it), b) I couldn't just grab with Curris/Maces/Muskets/What Have You. The Pathfinder line just seems like a bust. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to start a poll/survey to find out what other's experiences are with them, but if they're not being used then Civs with UUs based on them are taking a hit.

A poll would be a good idea I think. I never use anything beyond my first scout build and maybe 1 or 2 more scouts as circumstances dictate. Beyond that, anything requiring combat encounters makes the explorer line useless. Might as well keep your scouts around until they encounter a hostile unit, in which case it'll be dead anyway (from anything beyond a warrior).

The whole project seems to be coming along quite nicely. No balance issues, or problems. Actually, the thing that impresses me the most is the replayability of the whole thing. I started this game, played fairly deep, and had to put it aside for a couple of weeks. When I came back to it, I decided to start over. With Start As Minors, Barb Civ, and the other components (and new random seed, ofc), it was a totally different game. That's frickin' awesome. :goodjob: Actually, if I get around to it I might post the start for this game - the map turned out to be alot of fun to play.

Wow, great that you are enjoying it. Hopefully Jdog has read this review, as he is the genius behind these mods and needs some inspiration every now and then. It can get pretty tedious heads down in the dungeon working on these projects. It kinda creeps up on ya if you are not careful so thanks.

Cheers.

Wow, great that you are enjoying it. Hopefully Jdog has read this review, as he is the genius behind these mods and needs some inspiration every now and then. It can get pretty tedious heads down in the dungeon working on these projects. It kinda creeps up on ya if you are not careful so thanks.

Cheers.

I second that! There is no way I would still be playing vanilla BTS. If it wasnt for everyone who gets involved in these projects and puts in their own time then I think a lot of people wouldnt still be playing Civ.

A big thank you to everyone.

Having just taken a gander at some of the other threads in this forum, I'd like to take this opportunity to provide some more feedback. I've played further into the El Cid game I referenced earlier in the week. I specifically decided to go for a Space victory, because I wanted to play deep into the game and get a feel for the various units and to see how the game progressed. I also have some opinions on questions I read expressed in other threads in this forum.

The game has progressed to the 1920s, and my ship is just about done. Would have had it sooner, but I dialed back my research to get cash to upgrade my military. Which wouldn't have been an issue, as I was keeping a GE on hand to rush The Internet and make up the tech difference, when lo and behold, The Internet doesn't exist in LoR. Doh! :lol: It's not a wonder I often build (maybe twice before in close games, and principally to deny it to the AI), but it does have it's place in the game. I dunno, I can see arguments for keeping it, and arguments for tossing it, but I think it should remain in the game.

My current plan for this game is to get the ship launched, and then unleash my military, just to see how things play out. Just a few notes. The Supercarrier may be a bit over-powered; three planes to seven? That's a big jump. I was building fleets around four carriers (12 planes), upgraded those fleets and they now have 28. :eek: That's alot of whoop ass. Then again, the AI has humongous stacks. I dunno, I'll see how it plays out, but I'm thinking there may need to be nerf there (5? 6? I dunno).

The Steam-era naval progression seemed to work out fine. This has been a very naval oriented game, so I've actually gotten to notice alot of this in ways that I haven't for a long time (probably since Wolf). I don't think it's necessary to delete any more units (the Protected Cruiser is fine), but I would probably tweak the DE. I'd give it some anti-sub capability (just for game balance Submarines need to have a counter), and take away it's bonus vs. Steamships.

As mentioned in another thread, I'm not sure about Squad Infantry upgrading to Marines. I like having the option, as I often build a dedicated force of "Marines" in the Industrial era (acually, Riflemen with the Amphib promo), and being able to upgrade them to Infantry then Marines is kinda cool. However, I did also notice that the AI tends to build up large stacks of Marines, as it just upgrades all it's Squad Infantry to the more powerful Marine, so what should be a specialized niche unit, becomes ridiculously common. Seeing that, I'd have to come down on the side of not having Marines be an upgrade path for Squad Infantry.

I'll post another update later once I actually start a war.

Oh, in case anyone wants to play these out, here is the Last Save. Feel free to Dow whomever. Be advised, it's late game, with alot of units, on a standard Perfect World map, so your computer is probably going to need some juice.

Also, I'll provide the 4000BC game start save. It's a very nice 4 Gems start with some other goodies not too far away, and some really interesting geography. Yes, there were some WB tweaks to the map (not the gems, but food was added, resources were moved around a bunch of places, and the geography was altered a bit to maintain an already established theme). I won't go into too much detail, so as not to ruin things for those that want to play it out.

Forget everything I said about nerfing Supercarriers. Just played it out a little. With the late game air defenses, they probably need a buff. Say, Carriers carry 4, and Supercarriers carry 8.

...I'm not sure about Squad Infantry upgrading to Marines. ...What should be a specialized niche unit, becomes ridiculously common.
I completely agree with this.
Marines should be a niche unit, more costly than regular infantry, and with a reduced (but not zero) penalty when making amphibious attacks.

Having just taken a gander at some of the other threads in this forum, I'd like to take this opportunity to provide some more feedback. I've played further into the El Cid game I referenced earlier in the week. I specifically decided to go for a Space victory, because I wanted to play deep into the game and get a feel for the various units and to see how the game progressed. I also have some opinions on questions I read expressed in other threads in this forum.
That's pretty useful. Is this a close game at all, or are you blowing the AI away? If it's not close, any chance you'd be willing to switch players (turn on cheatmode and then press ctrl + shift + l) to someone in a less assured spot and see how that plays out? It would be really good to get some feedback from someone that's actually clawing their way toward a late game win, then from someone who's just cruising toward an assure win.

The game has progressed to the 1920s, and my ship is just about done. Would have had it sooner, but I dialed back my research to get cash to upgrade my military. Which wouldn't have been an issue, as I was keeping a GE on hand to rush The Internet and make up the tech difference, when lo and behold, The Internet doesn't exist in LoR. Doh! :lol: It's not a wonder I often build (maybe twice before in close games, and principally to deny it to the AI), but it does have it's place in the game. I dunno, I can see arguments for keeping it, and arguments for tossing it, but I think it should remain in the game.
As in BtS the Internet is a project, and not a wonder. But it's still there, you can build it and it works fine. Being a project it's not rushable with a GE though. The only thing I've changed in LoR is the tech that allows the internet, in LoR it is available with computers isntead of in BtS which unlocks the intenet with Fiber Optics.

The Steam-era naval progression seemed to work out fine. This has been a very naval oriented game, so I've actually gotten to notice alot of this in ways that I haven't for a long time (probably since Wolf). I don't think it's necessary to delete any more units (the Protected Cruiser is fine), but I would probably tweak the DE. I'd give it some anti-sub capability (just for game balance Submarines need to have a counter), and take away it's bonus vs. Steamships.
I don't know. The more I think about it the more I feel the Protected Cruiser needs to go. I'm thinking the PC will be cut in the next update or the one after that, and a couple of tweaks will be made to the DE and Ironclad Battleship to facilitate this. The Industrial era navy just seems too busy.

As mentioned in another thread, I'm not sure about Squad Infantry upgrading to Marines. I like having the option, as I often build a dedicated force of "Marines" in the Industrial era (acually, Riflemen with the Amphib promo), and being able to upgrade them to Infantry then Marines is kinda cool. However, I did also notice that the AI tends to build up large stacks of Marines, as it just upgrades all it's Squad Infantry to the more powerful Marine, so what should be a specialized niche unit, becomes ridiculously common. Seeing that, I'd have to come down on the side of not having Marines be an upgrade path for Squad Infantry.
It's a valid point, and I will consider it. I may however just move Marines back in the tech tree, add Radio as a prereq or something like this.

Explorers and Pathfinders are useless
I will buff Pathfinders to 7 strength and maybe cut their cost slightly. Keep in mind with their withdraw and hills/forest bonuses and the fact they ignore terrain cost they are actually decent stack support units as is. Try building 1 or 2 of them and add them to your stack, you'll probably find them quite useful for scouting ahead (seeing what they can see on top of a hill), defending in hilly or forested terrain, or going for sacrificial attack against a top defender to weaken it and hopeing for a withdraw.

So that explains why I couldn't find The Internet to build it. :lol: Turns out Asoka had built it, and that probably explains why I found myself racing him to get the ship launched. Once again, a civ with the Enlightened trait ends up being my biggest opponent. I never really felt like I was cruising in that game (won it with a Space Vic in 1967). Seemed like it took me longer than necessary to get to Rifles/Cannons/Cavs, then I had nice window where I picked off some low-hanging civs on the closest and smallest continent. After that I felt like I was in an arms race trying to keep up with tech and arms while getting the ship done. I would have had one doozy of a resource war to gain Aluminum if Wang hadn't vollunteered to become a vassal very early in the game, and kept me supplied with the stuff. I might actually dig out an early save and forget the ship and go straight for a Dom Vic; that's more my style and alot less tedious. Random thoughts:

The problem with the Pathfinder is that it's an Explorer that comes in after Astronomy and Muskets. By that point of the game (heck, after Paper) you should have the whole world mapped out already, and with BarbCiv, there aren't any backwards tribes to easily pick off (and if you want to, you've got Galleons to carry real troops that get xp and upgrade to other combat troops). The Pathfinder is just a niche Recon Unit, that may, or may not be useful, depending on the game, and map, but it's never going to matter much, and wouldn't be missed. It definitely should not be anyone's UU. I still think Spain should get the default BTS Conq back to pair up with the Royal Galleon when the civs expand to 2 UUs. As it is now, the LoR Conq is a strength 8 mounted unit, that is contemporaneous with Curris, a strength 12 mounted unit. But I don't want to beat a dead horse, so I'll leave this be.

Marines coming in at Industrialism is fine, it's just that Squad Infantry shouldn't promote to Marines; their next progression should be > Mot Inf > Mech Inf, and Marines don't upgrade at all until Assault Mechs come in (I didn't even know they were in the game :lol: ). And I still feel that the Protective Cruiser is fine. I used it in this El Cid game, where I upgraded Ironclad Cruisers to Pro Cruisers, then to Destroyers. Actually, the dud in there seems to be the Ironclad Battleship, but what's it going to hurt to keep it?

Gunnery Control seems like a weird one, btw. In base BTS, naval units are eligible for Blitz after Combat 3, but in LoR they get Gunnery Control after Drill 2 or Nav I; that's just weird. Why not after Combat 2, also? I didn't realize this until late in the game, when I couldn't figure out how come my Combat promoted Battleships couldn't unlock the promo. Nav 1? Who'dve thunk? :crazyeye:

These are all very minor quibbles, btw. Nicely done. :goodjob:

@Guest01 and anyone else that has experienced a lost of interface with the recent update:

EF just responded to the cyrillic characters issue that causes this. Because I do not have cyrillic characters in my mod's path, and don't even know how to create them, I need someone out there who does to test this. I'm uploading a zipped BugPath.py file that hopefully fixes the issue that destroys the interface for users with non roman characters in their mod folder's path. Extract this file to the ...LoR/Assets/Python/BUG folder and have it overwrite the original BugPath.py file. Then start up the game, please let me know if that works, as I'll then know I have a fix for this in the next update.

@Guest01 and anyone else that has experienced a lost of interface with the recent update:

EF just responded to the cyrillic characters issue that causes this. Because I do not have cyrillic characters in my mod's path, and don't even know how to create them, I need someone out there who does to test this. I'm uploading a zipped BugPath.py file that hopefully fixes the issue that destroys the interface for users with non roman characters in their mod folder's path. Extract this file to the ...LoR/Assets/Python/BUG folder and have it overwrite the original BugPath.py file. Then start up the game, please let me know if that works, as I'll then know I have a fix for this in the next update.

I am sorry for my idleness in reporting issue to BUG team.

But I'm glad to say that your fix solved the issue so LoR working fine now :goodjob: Should I still inform BUG team about problem?

No, since that fix works I'll let EF know. Thanks for the prompt response.

Im playing through the industrial in to the modern era at the moment.

There are a few things that aren't quite fitting together for me at the moment & I thought I would give some feedback.

It mainly revolves around the machine gun unit.

Firstly im not sure what the gas turbine tech adds to game, and secondly it should come before the tech for infantry not after it. Previously MG came with railroad which was the tech in between rifles and infantry, now it is a tech choice whether to go for MG or infantry (with assembly line, a very useful tech).

Secondly it is far to over powered at the moment and is useful for way too long, I think this is due to the +100% gunpowder bonus.
In my mind the MG is a world war 1 type trench unit that was used in a gunpowder era where there were thousands of men lost. It doesn't make sense that it still gets bonuses against paratroopers who have been dropped behind enemy lines and attack from behind. After WW1 trench type combat was obsoleted, it doesn't make sense that it still works against modern units.
I would suggest changing MG to +100% infantry and/or rifles. This shortens its life & effectiveness and encourages upgrading to antitank or anti air (trench units).

Also I would like to see motorized infantry come earlier as it represents late WW2 infantry better.

Any thoughts?

Interesting bug:

1. Conquered city from Korea.
2. It was a holy city, so it revolted -- I granted it independence, it became Vietnam.
3. At some point, perhaps because of the independence, Vietnam had an open borders agreement with me.
4. Vietnam eventually became a vassal of Khmer.
5. Even though I could get rid of open borders agreement with Khmer, I could not with Vietnam -- there was no option to cancel it in the "current agreements" part of diplomacy.
6. Eventually I went to war with Khmer and Vietnam, and even though our units were fighting, we still had an open borders agreement, which led to some interesting results, including units not being removed from each others' territories after DOW.
7. Finally fixed problem by eliminating Vietnam.

Interesting bug:

1. Conquered city from Korea.
2. It was a holy city, so it revolted -- I granted it independence, it became Vietnam.
3. At some point, perhaps because of the independence, Vietnam had an open borders agreement with me.
4. Vietnam eventually became a vassal of Khmer.
5. Even though I could get rid of open borders agreement with Khmer, I could not with Vietnam -- there was no option to cancel it in the "current agreements" part of diplomacy.
6. Eventually I went to war with Khmer and Vietnam, and even though our units were fighting, we still had an open borders agreement, which led to some interesting results, including units not being removed from each others' territories after DOW.
7. Finally fixed problem by eliminating Vietnam.

Weird.

If you still have a save of you at war with Vietnam and them having open borders with you, it would be nice to debug it and see what's going on. This would be a RevDCM core issue, so you can either upload it it here, or in the RevDCM bug reports thread in the RevDCM forum, whichever is easier. If you do post the save here, I'll just forward the report to jdog in the RevDCM forums anyway, as I can't really debug what could be going on there.

@bigfatjonny

I have reviewed your comments and gameplay experiences with MGs and Squad Infantry, and the behavior is as intended. You may disagree with it, but for playability in the early modern era MGs are meant to be powerful. Once a player gets MGs it is intended that they become virtually uncrackable until their enemies get significant air power, and can bomb them out, or can field large amounts of armor.

I have taken your other advice and moved back Motorized infantry. They now require Industrialism, Radio, and Turret Design.

@bigfatjonny

I have reviewed your comments and gameplay experiences with MGs and Squad Infantry, and the behavior is as intended. You may disagree with it, but for playability in the early modern era MGs are meant to be powerful. Once a player gets MGs it is intended that they become virtually uncrackable until their enemies get significant air power, and can bomb them out, or can field large amounts of armor.

I have taken your other advice and moved back Motorized infantry. They now require Industrialism, Radio, and Turret Design.

OK I get that & I like it - in the WW1 era. My point was that MG's continue being the city defense unit of choice much longer. Their counter unit is Armour (attack 22? + 50% vs MG's = 33) or bombing with bombers (Air superiority) but that is more WW2 era.
However the upgrade of Armour, Tanks, only have attack of 26 and no bonus to MG so are worse than their previous unit.
Also advanced gunpowder units, Paratroopers, marines & special forces, also have a hard job against MG's (16 + 100% vs Guns = 32 without any city defense bonus) even though they are modern era units. It doesn't make sense that Modern warfare units would have difficultly with trench type MG's.

One thing that has been annoying me is my enemy with Combat4 Cavalry killing several of my tanks. I liked that you put +Melee and +Mounted on MG's, it is just in my game that my slightly backward enemies havent upgraded their units yet, and I didnt war with them in my MG era to kill off all the cavalry.

Didn't you say that you are going to change infantry to upgrade to motorized and not to Marines?

Actually, MG was quite powerful in WW2 times and it remained to be the top city defending unit then. The problem with city capture in Civ is, that it can be done solely with tanks or other motorized units while in real life it had to be done mostly by infantry. So in my view it's only fair for tanks to have a hard time with MGs. Their main advantage after all is that they don't take collateral damage from artillery.

If you still have a save of you at war with Vietnam and them having open borders with you, it would be nice to debug it and see what's going on. This would be a RevDCM core issue, so you can either upload it it here, or in the RevDCM bug reports thread in the RevDCM forum, whichever is easier. If you do post the save here, I'll just forward the report to jdog in the RevDCM forums anyway, as I can't really debug what could be going on there.

I got the perfect one actually. This is me about to declare war on Vietnam, I have an army next to a city. If you DOW the army isn't booted out of his territory, and you can't cancel the open borders (in war or peace).

However the upgrade of Armour, Tanks, only have attack of 26 and no bonus to MG so are worse than their previous unit.

I found that thing about Tank being worse than armour against MG also sort of issue.

When I was recently defeated, the game WOULD NOT END. It kept auto-playing turns and I'd randomly be in and out but I could never actually play. I had to quit through the task manager.

Any ideas on how to fix this?

Actually, MG was quite powerful in WW2 times and it remained to be the top city defending unit then. The problem with city capture in Civ is, that it can be done solely with tanks or other motorized units while in real life it had to be done mostly by infantry. So in my view it's only fair for tanks to have a hard time with MGs. Their main advantage after all is that they don't take collateral damage from artillery.

It'd be more realistic to say combined arms influenced WW2 than say the MG42 did. And definitely nothing but the lightest tanks was stopped by a sub-.50 mg. It was the development of anti-tank infantry weapons and AT field artillery that helped, among other things.

@Goodgame

Yes, maybe closer to truth.

Civ units are an abstraction of a military group.
In my mind an axeman unit isn’t a few hundred men all carrying axes, it is a undisciplined group of lightly armored but armed men. Maybe split into several groups for tactical purposes.
The MG unit isn’t just a few MG42's but a well dug in WW1 trench type unit consisting of hundreds of men including a command unit and some light arms, the machine guns just happen to be the heaviest guns they are using.
Does a tank unit represent 1 or 50 tanks? Or does it represent an armored division, including infantry, command and mechanical engineers?

In game terms really you don’t want obsolete units defeating brand new units from later eras. I doubt a WW1 era MG42, however well dug in, could touch a modern tank.

It comes back to the old spearman vs tank argument. Unfortunately military units & combat isnt the best done part of Civ.

One that note - a Galleass has 50/50 chance against the frigate - a much later unit. It even says in the notes section that the Galleass was the top navel unit UNTIL the frigate. I think the +50% frigate needs removing.

In game terms really you don’t want obsolete units defeating brand new units from later eras.
On that note - a Galleass has 50/50 chance against the frigate - a much later unit. It even says in the notes section that the Galleass was the top navel unit UNTIL the frigate. I think the +50% frigate needs removing.
I agree on both points, especially the galleass thing.

The Machine Gun thing is complicated, it seems. Here´s what I think, after reading what other people have posted about them:

- The upgrade for Armors (Tanks) should still get bonus against machine guns
- Because of their way of fighting (skirmishing, paratrooping, etc), Paratroopers should get a bonus agaisnt Machine Guns

On another topic, lumbermills should appear earlier. By the time you discover Replaceable Parts, most forests have been cut down, so you cannot use lumbermills a lot

I'll second (or third, depending): All Armor units should have a bonus v. MGs. Galleases should not have a bonus v. Frigates, but Lumbermills are fine right where they are, IMHO, of course.

I'm curious as to why the Varangian Guard is the unique unit for the Vikings, rather than the Byzantines. True, they were Swedes, but they served the Byzantine Emperor - and much more loyally than the national armies did.

Anyway, just a minor point, but seeing it made me go "Whaaa...?"

I disagree on paratroopers. They should be a marginal unit, only useful for skirmishing. They didn't and shouldn't have the means to dislodge entrenched units like MGs.
Remember their role during WW2, how costly was the conquest of Crete, and the Arhneim fiasco.

However, I second the proposal for Lumbermills. I generally edit my xml files to make them available much earlier, giving my workers more options when it still matters (that is, when all forests haven't been cut yet!). It also helps those civs who were unfortunate enough to start amidst toundra.

I'm actually very happy with the balance that is obtained with the current modern era unit strengths. In the current SVN the only change that has been made is Squad Inf have been put back to +25% vs Gunpowder Units, Marines now require Medicine as well as Industrialism, and Motorized Inf require Radio instead of Mass Media. Anyway, as I said before MGs are meant to be strong, you need armor or airpower to dislodge them, that's intended, and their defensive capabilities are nothing like the spearman vs tank thing someone said. Keep in mind Armors are available for construction along with tanks, and can upgrade to tanks and heavy tanks. Armor is strength 20 +50% vs MGs, Tanks 26 strength and starts with blits, and Heavy Tanks 30 strength +25% vs Armor. These numbers are more for balance then any other reason, in LoR it is intended that you will need to pick between different tools for certain jobs, rather then just spamming tanks.

@morchuflex, GONdorman: Actually I always keep some forests until lumbermills are available. The thing is, combined with railroads they are better than workshops (without Caste system). Also, they provide health bonuses'. Thirdly, why chop down forests in tundra? Bare tundra is nothing good for, so I wait for lumbermills.

BTW, I also like your anti-tank-rush approach, phungus. A mixed stack is much more challenging and fun.

Thirdly, why chop down forests in tundra?
Obviously I don't. But when you start near one of the poles, you wish you could improve tundra forests before the industrial era. 1F 1H is pathetic. 1F 2H is already a huge improvement.