Hi,

I'm working on monarch wins now with a random start. Up to now, I only win an occasional game and I'd like to make that most of the time before I move to the next level. I've decided to post a game here, if only to slow down my playing, making me think a bit before each move, as I don't want to appear as a complete idiot. I'll try to post detailed reports but put most of the details in spoilers so they can be skipped by those who just want to look at the general play. Comments or recommendations are always welcome. I'll try to post reports of 20 or fewer turns often. No fancy title or numbering as I don't know if I'll ever do this again :D.


I'll play on Epic speed, a Medium and Small map, since that seems to be pretty random. Sea level is medium, other options are random. And the winner of the random leader roll is Shaka! Pretty good since I want to practice my combat skills.

Shaka details:
The Zulu start with Hunting and Agriculture, so start with a scout. Shaka is Agressive and Expansive. So Melee and Gunpowder units start with Combat I. The unique barracks is cheap as is the drydock. Cities have +2 :health:, workers are produced faster and granaries and harbors are half price.

The unique unit is an Impi. A spearman with not only a movement value of 2, but also has mobility, lowering the cost of the terrain. Sounds like it'll be good for raiding and chasing after fast horses, but is still extremely vulnerable to maces.

The unique building is the Ikhanda, a barracks which is not only half price because of the Aggressive trait, but reduces city costs by 20%. Sounds like Courthouses might be able to be delayed a bit, or together with courthouses, a large empire would be a bit cheaper.

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/Shaka.jpg

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/Shakadetails.jpg

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/Impi.jpg

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/Ikhanda.jpg

Here is the starting position:

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/start.jpg

It is only fitting that the Zulu have access to ivory, although actually the Zulu, I believe, did not use elephants. The starting location has plenty of woods to chop, and at least three hills, and an irrigated corn. Some kind of coast to the west barely visible SW of the recommendation circle. I think I should either settle in place or on top of the ivory. The Ivory would give me more unknowns to the south and removed one wooded plains hill from the BFC, but add a :hammers: to the city. So, a slightly quicker start at the cost of more unknowns and possibly a few less hammers in the long run. I think the Impi's call for a quick start. Unfortunately the scout is not positioned to tell me anything about what's to the south. After moving the scout N then probably east, I'll settle on the Ivory.


4000 BC:

After moving the scout and settling, here is what I have:

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/4000BCMap.jpg

Looks like my move south paid off. Added some cows and a flood plain at the cost of a grassland hill instead of a plains hill, and fewer woods. I plan to make a worker first, and research Mining -> BW -> Wheel -> AH.

I probably wouldn't do that. While settling on plains ivory is usually a good thing, I would probably go for settling on the incense for the production (5 hills) and the extra happiness. But before anything move the scout 1N and then 1W or 1SW.

I didn't even think of settling on the incense, and I've already made my move.. edited the first message as I wasn't expecting anyone to post so quickly :eek:. Would that have given me an extra coin? And yes, now that I think of it, moving the scout west to check the coast would have made its exploration a bit cleaner. I could have then made a clockwise half circle. Now that I see the hut though, I need to check it out :rolleyes:

I'll wait an hour or two in case there are any more comments then continue with turns 1-20 or so.

Oh yes, I won't bother posting saved games unless someone wants me to, then sure :). But I am using the HOF mod. If you wish I can occasionally post screenshots showing what that adds to the displays.

Looks like a great start to me. 3 food specials in the capital is never a bad thing so you should be fine. BW looks like an obvious early tech.

I think you should do AH first, then mining, then BW.

There is only 1 tile in the BFC which you can mine pre BW, and following your proposed path means that your worker may fave some idle turns after farming the corn and rice.

I like your move onto the ivory, if you had settled on the incence you would have only had 1 food resource in the capital BFC, which is not the best.

I probably wouldn't do that. While settling on plains ivory is usually a good thing, I would probably go for settling on the incense for the production (5 hills) and the extra happiness. But before anything move the scout 1N and then 1W or 1SW.

I remember thinking that I didn't want to move east. From the number of resources I had, I felt there had to be more in the original BFC. If I moved south, I didn't lose any of them as I saw all the squares on the north side. But if there were resources to the west I may lose them by moving east. Also I could get into range of more to the south. I think a city on the incense would have had food problems to work all the hills.

I think you should do AH first, then mining, then BW.

There is only 1 tile in the BFC which you can mine pre BW, and following your proposed path means that your worker may fave some idle turns after farming the corn and rice.

I think I'll have enough for the worker to do. Remember I start with agriculture, so I have two farms to build. Also moving around between the rice, corn and hill though the forests without roads will take time. Right now, mining will be done in 12, and the worker in 15. Unfortunately I have low coins and am not too sure what I can do to improve that right away, but I think I'll have enough to do until BW. Then I'll have plenty to do. Hopefully chopping a settler to send him to the copper right near by :).

Turn set report:

Though 3500 BC summary: I've discovered Byzantine close to my south. It looks like I'm on a narrow North-South island continent that reaches from pole to pole. My scout is healing after defending against a lion. I think that's all the freebee animal attacks I get at this level, going to have to start ending his turn in forest.

I've built a worker who is building a farm on the corn. BW is 13 turns away.
It looks like Justinian might need to be the target of rush of some kind.

Current map: Justinian's capital, Constantinople is indicated by the gray dot on the southern border of the fog.
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/1st%20Turnset/3500BCmap.jpg

Details:
3975 BC: Got 61 Gold from the hut. I think I see coast to the east. Do I have an isolated start?

3900 BC: Justinian archer appears along the river to the south east. My scout starts moving south along the coast to the east.

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/1st%20Turnset/meetingJustinian.jpg

3850 BC: Discover Byzantine culture not far to the south east along the river. I'm going to try and squeeze between his culture and the coast while I can.

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/1st%20Turnset/ByzantineCulture.jpg


3800BC: His expanding culture pushes me back to the north, going to have to work my way west then south. My expanding culture gives me the opportunity to work the floodplain. But I would use two more turns to my first worker because I'm expansive and need hammers. I'll keep with the shortest worker time.

3750 BC: His culture prevents me from exploring any further south

3700 BC: Mining discovered. BW in 22 turns. Buddhism fiadl. My scout starts up the west coast.

3625 BC: Worker is done, he starts farming the corn. I start working the floodplains, the extra commerce reduces BW to 18 turns. Whoopeee :lol:. I'll need one warrior to help escort the first settler, so I start on one. First bear appears.

3600 BC: Hinduism fiadl.

3525 BC: My scout fights off a Lion on open ground. Going to have to start ending his turn in forest. Heading for some jungle to heal.

3500 BC: End of first 20 turns. Scout is healing. Worker is still farming the corn. Looks like I'm on a narrow long north/south island/continent. Probably more islands to the east in galley range.

Justinian looks good for a rush ... which supports your choice to go for BW - being that you are agressive you want to pump out melee units asap. Hopefully he will have founded a religion for you.

Capital on the Ivory was definitely best. 3 grass hills (which are visible on turn1, got 1 more) + 2 hammer city tile is enough production. On Incense loses a lot of river tiles and the Levee. Argument for moving east was to avoid screwing up seafood placement on the western coast though (turned out to be a valid concern).

Looks like Justy can be offed with Horsie/Copper if those appear within a reasonable radius for 2nd city. Otherwise he should die with Elepult, most likely. Don't force a rush at all costs, though ;)

Capital on the Ivory was definitely best. 3 grass hills (which are visible on turn1, got 1 more) + 2 hammer city tile is enough production. On Incense loses a lot of river tiles and the Levee. Argument for moving east was to avoid screwing up seafood placement on the western coast though (turned out to be a valid concern).

I count 4 grass hills in the BFC. More than enough production. With the early :) from the phants, you will have a production powerhouse at size 6.

Looks like Justy can be offed with Horsie/Copper if those appear within a reasonable radius for 2nd city. Otherwise he should die with Elepult, most likely. Don't force a rush at all costs, though ;)

I happen to like CR impis for a early rush, if you can hook up copper fast enough. They're better/faster than chariots with their tree-ignoring movement, plus they get CR1 and start with combat1. IMO, the speed offsets the lower strength compared to axes.

@pholtz:
You're going to have a hard time losing with this start. Now let's see if Justin founds judaism for you (meaning he will have bypassed any techs that could help him survive against the zulu rush).

I count 4 grass hills in the BFC. More than enough production. With the early :) from the phants, you will have a production powerhouse at size 6.

3 grass hills (which are visible on turn1, got 1 more)

When the decision was made, only 3 were visible.

Justinian's capital is 6 tiles away. The Impi's extra move is hardly needed here when taking into account they completely suck at attacking compared to Axes.

I happen to like CR impis for a early rush, if you can hook up copper fast enough. They're better/faster than chariots with their tree-ignoring movement, plus they get CR1 and start with combat1. IMO, the speed offsets the lower strength compared to axes.

I've done chariot rushes, didn't think about Impi ones. But I see that they could be better.

You're going to have a hard time losing with this start. Now let's see if Justin founds judaism for you (meaning he will have bypassed any techs that could help him survive against the zulu rush).

You underestimate the value of my idiocy :)

Justinian's capital is 6 tiles away. The Impi's extra move is hardly needed here when taking into account they completely suck at attacking compared to Axes.

Good point, but the Impi still might work because its extra move will allow it to move next to the city on the first turn, attack on the second, limiting the chance of a new defender to appear. But all this speculation depends on copper. Let's see if I have any.

Turn set report summary:

I started a war with Justinian to steal a worker. Southern area map:

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/2nd%20Turnset/SouthernFront.jpg

Copper is discovered to the north. Here are two maps to show you that area:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/2nd%20Turnset/TheNorth.jpg

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/2nd%20Turnset/TheNorth2.jpg
Ulundi is now size 3, working on another warrior. The worker is starting on a chop.

Details:
3450 BC: Farm is done, I switch the city worker to it. I think I see whipping in my future.

3425 BC: A lion moves next to my scout who is only at .3. I am forced to move him deeper in the jungle as he wouldn't survive an attack. I start moving my worker from the farm to the bare hill.

3350 BC: My warrior is done. I guess I'll move him SW to peel back one or two fog squares and then check on Justinian. What to build next. Only 4 turns from size 3 as the food I'm getting from the corn and flood plain are very high. Going to wait until then before I stunt the city with a settler build. So I start putting a few hammers into an Ikhanda.

3300 BC: Byzantine archer moves up next to my healing scout. He better not beat me to any huts. My warrior shows no more seafood to the south west.

3250 BC: I have been moving my scout, only .8 health through the jungle to try and beat the archer to any hut. The archer killed one Lion already. Ulundi is size 3 now. I switch to a Settler. BW is 3 turns away. Mine is done.

3200 BC: Carl, you were right, kinda. I choose to waste one turn waiting in the forest to the south of the city with my worker. The rice is two turns away and BW comes in next turn. I think its best to waste a turn as I am going to start chopping next turn. Decision time. My warrior has moved next to a Byzantine worker. To take it or not, that is the question. His archer is still way to the north. But I have only one warrior.

I choose to steal the worker. Justinian is going to be my enemy, might as well try to stifle him. Because of this I interrupt my settler build to build another warrior. Another reason for the attack is that any rush on Constantinople would have been blind. I don't know if it is on a hill or not. I need more information.

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/2nd%20Turnset/warisstarted.jpg

3175 BC: Another big turn.
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/2nd%20Turnset/BW.jpg
My warrior moves next to Constantinople, and it is on a hill. I might have stopped him improving his first tile though. My worker starts a chop (on a warrior at the moment, overflow into the settler). I start my revolt into slavery. My scout, caught between a rock and a hard place, at .9 health, moves away from a lion next to a Byzantine archer. It will probably be toast next turn. However, in its frantic movements away from animals to try to heal, it did uncover what is to be the only source of copper so far.
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/2nd%20Turnset/Copper.jpg


Was I an idiot to start a war? Where should my second city go? What should I research next?

Don't switch to slavery before you need to.

Copper is waaaaaay too far to be used in a rush. Just hunker down, get peace if you can, block him off (1 city :lol: ), develop and take his capital and future crappy mainland cities with Elepult. Maybe you get a chance to use Amphibious elephants! :lol:

Don't switch to slavery before you need to.

I was actually thinking of this, but wasn't sure when I would want the first whip. I think you'll see I wasn't too many turns too early.

Copper is waaaaaay too far to be used in a rush. Just hunker down, get peace if you can, block him off (1 city ), develop and take his capital and future crappy mainland cities with Elepult. Maybe you get a chance to use Amphibious elephants!

I think this is the way to go. Here is a possible dotmap.

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/2nd%20Turnset/firstdotmap.jpg

There are many problems with this, but problems caused by the terrain and the situation.

The red dot is to block Justinian. It also gets the stone. The overlap with Ulundi is bad, but overlap can be good. Ulundi looks like it will be a city where I'm always changing the tiles city workers are on to emphasize food or hammers. Cities that overlap can work tiles temporarily abandoned by Ulundi. For example, keeping a cottage worked so it will grow. Possible alternate position is one east so that the stone is in the first circle. This would help ensure I can get Stonehenge if I go for it. I think this will be #2.

Blue dot isn't that good, but the best east coast site I could find. I need a port on each side of the island. Green dot also has lots of Ulundi overlap but is an ok coastal city. Pink dot seems to be the best place to get the dye. It might be an income city.

Notice no dot mapping for the copper. I need to uncover a bit more fog. One possible location might be the plains hill on the coast between the copper and some rice. Another the plains hill NW of the copper.

Right now my plan is to put the chop into a settler, letting the city grow making warrior(s). Whipping the city as soon as possible for the settler. Making peace with Justinian when he will talk, but boxing him in. Going to research AH next since it may affect placement of city #3.

Edit: further staring at the map makes one south of the stone look possible. I would go all out for Stonehenge if I did this.

Care to explain how you plan to specialize the cities in the dotmap? I've become obsessed with this kind of planning as of late.

I would say capital GPP Farm/Production

Green/Blue/Purple - Commerce

Red - uncertain

Leaving food resources unusable outside a dotmap is punishable by 10-starts-of-5-tiles-away-from-Monty. Consider if you want to face this punishment ;)

Leaving food resources unusable outside a dotmap is punishable by 10-starts-of-5-tiles-away-from-Monty. Consider if you want to face this punishment ;)

I think that Pacal is more likely to go nuts over wasted food. I would change the red site to 1S of the stone.

1S of the stone is a much better location, but if you settle it before you have a plan to take out Justinian, you're going to end up pouring a lot of hammers into cultural defense, with very little to show for it. I'd probably let him settle that area and hope he puts the city in the right spot to capture later. (Having 2 cities on the mainland will make the conquest a little harder, but not meaningfully so.)

If you're not grabbing copper or horses, the second city should go in the best pre-calendar/ironworking/civserv location within 6 tiles of the capital. That means the spot with the cows to the NW.

When the decision was made, only 3 were visible.

Justinian's capital is 6 tiles away. The Impi's extra move is hardly needed here when taking into account they completely suck at attacking compared to Axes.

That's your opinion. IMO, they don't suck for the same reason that chariots don't suck, and they're better (and faster and stronger) than chariots. They're a little more expensive than chariots, but you can whip them for 2 pop (except at marathon), which you can't do with chariots. Speed is never irrelevant in a rush. Against archers on a hill city, you need 3 axes (at least) for every defender. Axes give the defender time to whip and move in more defenders from neighboring cities. Overall, I've found you only need 3.5 impis per defender, and you'll be facing fewer defenders, and fewer CG-promoted ones. I've done impi rushes successfully many times. In any case, it's a moot point given the location of copper.

@pholtz:
I don't like stealing workers from a nearby civ that I'm planning to rush - it puts them into unit-building mode, making it harder for your rush to succeed. I'd rather steal workers from someone a bit farther away so that I could claim more of the intervening land. Justinian may not be so quick to take peace as long as you only have warriors vs his archers. I'd head for archery ASAP. You do need AH, but it would be pretty lucky to find horses in your BFC with 5 resources visible already.

The reason I didn't worry too much about the clams and crabs is that they would be picked up by a city in the fog to the east. Those are coastal resources, there HAS to be land there.

The reason I kinda like the red dot, is that it traps Justinian in immediately without any need for a border pop. It is also immediately connected to the capital along the river.

Another reason I like the red dot is that it would probably keep the border just north of the rice. I would always be able to pillage the rice or steal another worker and keep Justian in the stone age. I'm not sure why I would want him to grow any.

All that said, I'm still not sure. Not at home now, so you'll have another couple of hours to convince me one way or another :).

Care to explain how you plan to specialize the cities in the dotmap? I've become obsessed with this kind of planning as of late.

Good question. I'm not sure myself. Other than purple seeming to be a commerce city, I'm not sure of the others. Ulundi seems to be a jack of all trades. I need to take another look at the hammer potential of the other sites.

The reason I kinda like the red dot, is that it traps Justinian in immediately without any need for a border pop. It is also immediately connected to the capital along the river.

Another reason I like the red dot is that it would probably keep the border just north of the rice. I would always be able to pillage the rice or steal another worker and keep Justian in the stone age. I'm not sure why I would want him to grow any.

Yeah, just hope he doesn't have copper or horses either nearby or in one of the fogged tiles in his BFC. He does appear to have land to settle to his south and you have no idea what's there. You won't keep him pinned for long with just warriors. And that archer of his up north will be heading your way soon. In your favor is the fact that he will often try to found an early religion, so he may be delayed in uncovering a strategic resource. But a holy city will swamp that red dot in his culture. You've taken a pretty risky opening path, without anything to back it up at the moment.

I've decided to not decide tonight :rolleyes:. Work was long today, and I need to spend some time on my succession game, so I'm going to play this one up just up to the settler production.

Turnset summary: It is now 2900 BC. I have just whipped my first settler. I have 3 Warriors total, one will be produced the next turn. Constantinople has been explored, but Justinian won't make peace.

Map of Constantinople area:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/2nd%20Turnset/Constantinople.jpg
Details:
3150 BC: As expected my scout buys the farm. He will be missed. I decide to move the warrior around Constantinople to try and get more information. As long as he has only one archer in there he won't attack out. Also I'll keep the warrior in the queue at Ulundi. AH is 14 turns away.

3100 BC: Byzantine's land really does end. The captured worker starts on the rice. Warrior is one turn away, it will be finished before the chop.

3075 BC: Chop is finished, result will go into Settler next turn.

3050 BC: Chop is done, results into a Settler. Back to building another warrior. Justinian still won't talk to me.

3025 BC: I start chopping the forest on the hill 1E of Ulundi. Not sure if I'll finish the chop.

2975 BC: I pillage a road just to slow down Justinian's recovery after I make peace with him.

2950 BC: Justinian finally will talk to me, but refuses to make peace. My next warrior is almost done.

2925 BC: Justinian builds a second warrior in Constatinople. I two pop whip the settler, then notice that I goofed, I completed the chop that I meant to stop. Ah well. Not sure what both a chop and a whip will mean done on the same turn.

2900 BC: I have my first settler, now I have to decide where to send him. I have 3 Warriors total, one in Justinian's territory, and two able to help escort the settler. Another warrior is a one turn build. It looks like I'll get 34 gold from the overflow? Not bad I guess. AH is three turns away, if I don't have immediate access to horses I'll need to research Archery I guess.
I have three, soon to have 4 warriors to Justinian's 3 archers. He probably won't make peace because he killed my scout so is ahead in kills, and also is ahead in power. Looks like my taking of that worker is having more effect than I thought it would, I've just about always been able to make peace. But, we have certain knowledge now that Justinian can be boxed in severely while I expand to the north. If I had to guess, I would say that hill NE of Constantinople is iron??

If AH is only 3 turns away, I'd get it before deciding where to put that settler. Horses would allow you to pin Justin in his 1 city until you get cats to take him out. Also, if there are no horses, think about settling coastal to grab the copper and building an Ikhanda. It won't be too painful and you can tech sailing to get it connectd faster than by roading all that way.

Unfortunately, last night just as I was about to download my succession game's latest turn, the site went down with data base errors. So I have to take a look at that now. Not sure if I'll get any more turns in until after work.

General plan though.... move the settler to the vicinity of the red dot, or stone to block Justinian. Wait until AH before settling just in case there is reason to settle someplace else. Build an Ikhanda, and assemble some small force to help escort the next settler to the copper. Research Archery if necessary for this.

Starting a war by stealing the worker may not have been a wise move, but since Justinian refuses to make peace I am committed. Keep a warrior in his territory to stifle his growth. If this goes on until he discovers iron working, I should have a force sufficient to pillage any iron mine attempt. Keep Justinian to one city and archers until I can take his capital. If, however, he ever will accept peace, do that, but be ready to go to war again after ten turns.

Unfortunately, last night just as I was about to download my succession game's latest turn, the site went down with data base errors. So I have to take a look at that now. Not sure if I'll get any more turns in until after work.

General plan though.... move the settler to the vicinity of the red dot, or stone to block Justinian. Wait until AH before settling just in case there is reason to settle someplace else. Build an Ikhanda, and assemble some small force to help escort the next settler to the copper. Research Archery if necessary for this.

Starting a war by stealing the worker may not have been a wise move, but since Justinian refuses to make peace I am committed. Keep a warrior in his territory to stifle his growth. If this goes on until he discovers iron working, I should have a force sufficient to pillage any iron mine attempt. Keep Justinian to one city and archers until I can take his capital. If, however, he ever will accept peace, do that, but be ready to go to war again after ten turns.

Sounds like a reasonable plan. Just remember, his capital is coastal, so he can research sailing and load a settler on a galley. The easiest way to get him to take peace is to get to a higher power rating, i.e., more units. Have you built a barracks yet? It's 1/2 price, and will boost your power rating.

Sounds like a reasonable plan. Just remember, his capital is coastal, so he can research sailing and load a settler on a galley. The easiest way to get him to take peace is to get to a higher power rating, i.e., more units. Have you built a barracks yet? It's 1/2 price, and will boost your power rating.

Nope, no barracks yet, but planning on it, or rather the Zulu equivalent, the Ikhanda. I didn't know that a barracks would increase your power rating. Thanks for the info!

I've decide to switch my build to an Ikhanda, and was surprised that it will be done in just one turn. And I still get 11 gold overflow from the simultaneous chop/whip of last turn. Not sure how to calculate the gold on the over flow. Can someone point me to a post explaining this?

Turn summary:

The situation has improved somewhat. My power has surpassed Justinian's and he is still restricted to one city while I have a settler on the way to the copper. There are no horses visible. I was lucky. He had an archer moving towards uMg and I would barely have gotten a second warrior, who would have been promoted with cover, there before him. Two warriors, one with cover probably would have been able to hold off the archer. Luckily for me a mediator offered to make peace. I did not realize how close to the edge I was, I could have easily lost my second city to Justinian.

The land beyond the copper did not prove to be a good place for a city. Here is the area, I am unsure where to build the copper city.

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/3rd/copperarea.jpg

I am glad I built the city one south of the stone to get the seafood, as I see a hint of another civilization on that island.

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/3rd/who.jpg

Justinian is annoyed with me and may start a war at any time. Should I try and steal another worker if the chance presents itself?

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/3rd/waragain-1.jpg

I now have an Ikhanda in both cities. Mysticism is two turns away. Too late for Stonehenge?

Details:
2900 BC: Switched build to an Ikhanda. Started moving one warrior to escort the settler who is now planning to move 1 south of the stone. One warrior going north a bit to spy for Justinian's archer that is up that way. The other warrior staying by Constantinople.

2825 BC: AH is in, and no Horses anywhere!!!:confused:. I cannot think of the last time I was forced to research archery, but I think this is one of those games. I settle uMg.. .whatever :) one south of the stone. Archery is 9 turns away.

2725 BC: Ulundi is back to size 4. That didn't take long. I can grow to 5 now without unhappiness. Thucydides doesn't think much of my culture.

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/3rd/hopeless.jpg

My fourth warrior is created (my first one with the blue glow :) ). I send him to uMg which is poorly defended with just one warrior. That means Ulundi is at it's happiness cap, I'll need to control growth. The warrior to the north starts heading further north to hopefully explore the copper area. His name is Mandla.

Oh, Justinian will now make peace. All I have to do is give him uMg... :rolleyes:

2700 BC: Glad I started that warrior towards uMg, Justinian just made his third archer at Constantinople.

2675 BC: Possible trouble. Justinian's third archer and moves one off the city. Glad I had that warrior heading towards uMg. I can promote him with cover if necessary. Archery is still 3 turns away. And I may have gotten very lucky. A great mediator helps make peace.

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/3rd/mediator.jpg

Mandla fights off a Lion without a scratch.

2650 BC: A chop goes into an Ikhanda at uMg. Another experienced warrior is created. Archery is still one turn away, nothing to build. I'll put a turn into a Settler. A pasture is built to better feed the cows.

2625 BC: Mandla defeats another Lion and gets promoted to a Woodsman. Archery is done, and training starts on an Archer. I start research on the Wheel. I may have to research all the low level techs. I'm afraid I'll be behind when I meet others.

2550 BC: Mandla fights off a Panther and needs to heal. He is getting close to the Copper.

2525 BC: My first archer is done and I reach power parity with Justinian. Whew :dance: uMg finishes an Ikhanda and starts on an Archer. A bad marriage heightens tensions with Justinian :(. A chop on a forest along the river puts some hammers into uMg's archer.

2475 BC: Justinian's lost archer shows up on my northern border.

2425 BC: The land north of the copper is not looking that good.

2400 BC: Two archers are created and I have a 1.3 power ration with Justinian! :woohoo:
I discover the wheel, and start on Mysticism since I need to build a Monument to expand uMg's borders. I restart a settler for Copper city.

2375 BC: Justinian has a worker.

2350 BC: Mandla fights off another Lion. He needs to heal again.

2325 BC: Ulundi get a chop from buiding a mine, and then I 2 pop whip the Settler.

2300 BC: Because of the chop/whip, I'm able to get a worker in one turn.

2250 BC: One of my warriors helping clear the path for the Settler, meets a surprise
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/3rd/barbarian.jpg
(not really, but sorry to see them show up)

Mysticism is 2 turns away, then Fishing/Sailing I guess.

I think I'd have settled over the stone and get the pyramids to save any issues and workers turns needed. (can chop the forest instead of settling on top of)
For god sake, why do you need the rubbish "Stonehenge", it's pure waste of hammers. If you want a decent wonder get the pyramids.

I decide to settle on the hill between the copper and the rice. Not a good location but it must do. I think any attempt at a wonder will have to be put off. I need fishing and sailing to connect the copper. I also need Pottery. Masonry is a poor fourth :(.

Short turn summary. Longer report with adviser screens to follow

I've expanded to four cities, discovered Mysticism, Fishing, Sailing, Pottery. The copper is finally hooked up. I had a short war with Justinian, stole 2 workers and lost 1 archer, he lost three. I pillaged all of his area, and he had whipped Constantinople down to 1, so he won't be a threat. I am building a couple galleys and an axe, researching writing. I think my galleys will need open borders to explore. I accidentally built Stonehenge when I was hoping to get the money. The following pictures show the state of the world, the first with resources, the second with culture.

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/4th/Civ4ScreenShot0007.jpg
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/4th/Civ4ScreenShot0008.jpg

Details:
2200 BC: Mysticism is discovered. The citizens of uMg see some activity on the far shore and recognize the natives.
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/4th/Kublai.jpg
2175 BC: uMg starts on a monument.

2150 BC: Nobamba is founded to get access to the copper, and starts working on a monument.

2125 BC: Constantinople's borders expand cutting off uMg from its food. Ulundi starts on Stonehenge with no chance of completing it. I can use the money. uMg whips the monument to completion. Research is down to 60 % to break even.

2200 BC: Fishing is discovered, uMg starts on a work boat.

1775 BC: Justinian founds Thessalonica in a very poor spot, but the only place that is legal for him.
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/4th/Thessalonica.jpg

1725 BC: uMg's borders expand, taking in the crab and clam sites, and sealing Justinian off in the south.

1700 BC: against all reason, I build Stonehenge. I was not working all the hammer tiles, I did not have stone :confused:. I would have rather have had the money.

1625 BC: Continuing with my silly ways, I steal two workers from Justinian. We are again at war.

1600 BC: I plunder the mine and farm. Gaining 16 precious gold.

1575 BC: Justinian's archer attacks my archer that plundered his farm and dies in the attempt. I promote the defender and move him onto some forest. Sailing is discovered and I start on pottery. I trade my clams to Kublai Khan for some pigs. No benefit for me but will hopefully help in diplomacy.

1525 BC: Justinian's northern archer had moved south and tried to pillage the rice farm. I had 2 archers in woods nearby, the first failed, but badly hurt it. My second archer was victorious.

1500 BC: I was afraid of this.
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/4th/Hopeless.jpg
1450 BC: Justinian gives me some more free experience, attacking uMg defended by an archer.

1400 BC: Nobamba's borders expand, and builds an Ikhanda the same turn, helping my money situation.

1325 BC:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/4th/Pottery.jpg
I two pop whip a granary in Ulundi.


1300 BC: I pillage the pasture, and with nothing left to pillage, make peace with Justinian. I'm not sure if I've ever fought an Archery war before :)

1275 BC: Bulawao is founded at the blue dot.

1250 BC: Nobamba hurries a granary.

1225 BC: I finally have copper. It is kinda funny, that one reason I settle 1 south of the stone was to have a sea port to connect with the eventual copper. But with the slowness of building a monument and waiting for the borders to pop, I was able with the extra workers I stole from Justinian to build a road up there before the copper mine was done :)

Some report screens

http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/4th/resources.jpg
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/4th/cities.jpg
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/4th/graphs.jpg
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/4th/demographics.jpg
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/4th/cityinfo.jpg
One surprising item is that I think Kublai has only two pig resources. His land must be worse than mine. Only two wonders so far. Three religions, but none that I can see.

If anyone says they would like to look at a save, I'll upload one.

Work has kept me busy, and I've started participation in an Emperor Cookbook game (Shaka also), so this game as suffered a bit. But I've managed to get quite a few turns done to 525 BC, and I have a bit more of the world explored.

Current Situation: I've explored the slightly smaller island to my east, inhabited by Kublai only. He has horses but no metal, so I could start choking him or even conquering most of his cities soon if desired. Iron working is done, (mainly so I could develop my jungle cities) and I've got three sources of it. One in Ulundi's BFC and one in pink dot's, which just made that site much more important, and a thired up in the new light blue dot location which is two south of the northernmost iron. I've just about got a settler done to send to the pink dot.

I've had a short war with Justinian, mainly to raze his city for some cash. I'm thinking of starting another war to grab a worker and raze again for some more cash. He is in a hopeless position.

Here are a few maps of the current world.

resources off:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/5th/noresources.jpg
resources on:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/5th/resourceson.jpg

I'm at a part of the game where I have problems. So much to do. I could build armies and take down both Justinian and Kublai before they get access to any metal. I still need to expand to more city sites. I need to develop my economy before I keep many/build many more cities. If I start fighting Kublai now, what do I do with the cities? If I don't fight him now when he's vulnerable have I lost an opportunity? Those Gems look mighty tempting.

And I need to make a few more galleys and explore. I've explored Kublai's territory with a galley and an Impi, who are now going to the east side of Kublai's territory to check out the islands there. I have more to explore to the NW and SW.

What do I research next? I got Stonehenge late, should I go for the Oracle? If not that, then probably Alphabet. All my cities have Granaries. I am working on Libraries and Lighthouses now, but looking again, I'm not sure Libraries are needed yet with the minimum research going on in a couple of them.

My one fear, is that I am in a backwards area of the world, and will discover higher level civilizations sooner or later.

Some details of the last turn set:
1025 BC - Writing Discovered, started masonry
1000 - war on Justinian, axe took Thessalonica, no losses
925 - whip a library in Ulundi
875 - Discover masonry. Start Iron Working. Peace with Justinian.
A barb spearman moves on the copper, two warriors take him down.
775 Justinian builds Adrianople on top of the ruins of Thessalonica
525 BC - iron working done, what now? Mongolia island explored.

I'd be heading for construction ASAP to take both of them out. It might be worth sending some swords to pillage Kublai's horses before he gets HBR and keshiks. You can take them both out with swords/cats or phants/cats (if you get HBR).

Well, I took Justinian out with swords alone.

First I decided not to try for oracle so I research alphabet. A good choice, a few turns after I would have had the necessary techs, Kublai built it. I waited until Justinian completed the farm then stole his worker. I left a unit there so he couldn't work the rice and continued with the mining of the iron and army build up. While I was doing this, in 365 BC, Confucianism was discovered, making me worry more about eventually running into advanced civs :(.

Also, I got very unlucky with my galleys. I had a stack of two attacked flawlessly by a barb, so my second galley couldn't take out the injured remains. Then the barb took the second galley. Unlucky at sea, lucky on land. In 260 I was ready for the attack on Constantinople with 3 Swords, 2 Axe and 2 Impi. I had left Adrianople alive hoping it would distract him and I ended up facing only 3 archers. I expected to lose the three swords, was hoping that one would survive, but then all three won their battles with odds of about 27%. Constantinople was mine. In 230 I took Adrianople and Justinian was dead with no losses by myself in this coup de grace.

In 215 Kublai discovers alphabet but won't trade me any tech. I do trade rice for his gems. He initially wanted iron for the gems, for some reason I renegotiated :D. I discover alphabet by my own in 200.

During this short war, my exploring galley / impi pair discovered another smaller island east of Kublai's main island. This island has iron, but Kublai has yet to mine it.

Map of current world with resources:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/5th/200resources.jpg

Without resources:
http://i759.photobucket.com/albums/xx236/pholtz/Shaka/5th/200noresources.jpg

So now, how to proceed. I propose a military economy. If I fight him and take over his cities, my economy will nosedive. Yet, I can't allow him to develop that iron. I need to get more Impi's over to the iron to deny him that, and also attack his main island razing the cities. Use the gold of the razing to help my economy. As I am able, expand my cities, possibly taking over some of his if they are well placed. I'll probably make peace a couple of times to extort a few techs from him. He currently has 3 that I don't have, including HBR. Essentially I plan to do to him what I did to Justinian, just at a bigger scale.

To make this work, I'll need more galleys which I've started to make. I'll also need to concentrate on techs to help my economy, and also beeline as much as possible to Astronomy, if my further s l o w galley explorations fail to turn up any more civ's.

If you settle more than 2 cities on Kublai's big island, you'll incur some stiff colony maintenance costs. You can settle 2 cities on the other island without too much pain, I think, and you'll also get the overseas trade route bonus. Why not try taking all of Kublai's cities and creating a colony on his big island? They'll act like a vassal who has all of your techs, and you'll be able to direct their research just like a vassal (I think - can anyone else confirm?) and they'll trade everything they research with you. That would definitely help with the problem of being isolated.

Thanks for the thought. Going to research colonies, I've never tried using them before. Can I get them before Feudalism?

Thanks for the thought. Going to research colonies, I've never tried using them before. Can I get them before Feudalism?

I don't know the answer to that one. I have minimal experience with colonies. Here's a nice summary of some of the issues: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=273200&highlight=colonies. One alternative (perhaps much better than creating a colony) is to build the forbidden palace there instead of creating a colony. It's available once you have code of laws, which you sould be prioritizing early. Hope this helps. :)

Kublai's an interesting problem. As long as the two of you only know each other, he won't trade any techs until you get him to friendly. That'll be tough without a shared religion (bulbing philosophy to found taoism may be the best chance to get one without going up the religious line for theology or divine right, which is probably a waste of time). Intercontinental warfare before astro is not that easy, but may be worth it in this case. If you decide to do it, you should probably do so before he hooks up his iron on the second island. It would also be good to take out his horses on the main island (does he have HBR yet for his UU?). It'll put a strain on your economy, for sure. If you go the war route, I'd raze everything except Karakorum and New Sarai on his main island (until you can build the FP there), and I'd probably only keep the fish/sheep city on the smaller island (nice GP farm!). A better approach (especially if you get the 'mids) may be to get a military tech lead (muskets + cannon from lib, or rifles is you're not confident with muskets) and get astro and invade then. OTOH, you're Shaka! Go knock some heads - but do it soon. What's your current and proposed research path?

EDIT: A shot of the tech screen would be very helpful. :)