I'm trying to be a little simplistic with the poll options, but please feel free to add your comments. Also, don't limit your comments to animals only. Demons, Savages, et al are all part of it.

Hmm... May be a bit early for this, but people's responses may give us some useful ideas. :lol:

Just keep in mind, the animals as in 1.12 were about half done. There were still some to fully implement, some need to be tweaked, and so on. Overall, they'll either be weakened a little, or STRENGTHENED (along with the barbs), and put at war with the Orcs. Should result in fewer over all, but those that are left will be stronger. We aren't sure which option to go with.

I don't mind that there are strong early game units that I have to be weary of, however I personally feel that the demons and savages should be stronger, and the animals should be weaker. When a unit that can solo Orthus can be slaughtered by bears, my immersion level drops, a lot.
That said, I chose the third option, because they serve the function they were intended for, and my problem is merely a flavor problem in that I feel a different faction entirely should be serving that function. Animals should be annoying, barbarians should be a major threat. It's the opposite right now, imo.

Barbs will be strengthened with either option we go with, no worries. ;)

I don't mind that there are strong early game units that I have to be weary of, however I personally feel that the demons and savages should be stronger, and the animals should be weaker. When a unit that can solo Orthus can be slaughtered by bears, my immersion level drops, a lot.
That said, I chose the third option, because they serve the function they were intended for, and my problem is merely a flavor problem in that I feel a different faction entirely should be serving that function. Animals should be annoying, barbarians should be a major threat. It's the opposite right now, imo.

The overall power of the different barbs should be Demons > Orcs > Animals. But I also think they should each fill a niche in the game and not be the same thing with different units. Demons already have their niche by being the lategame powerhouse when the AC goes up.

I always pictured the orcs like the Huns to the Romans. An external, semi-organized threat. They should mostly pillage your improvements and make your life miserable until they create a decent force to attack cities with. Right now I'm never bothered by most orcs because they throw themselves against my city walls in groups of 2 or 3 and just end up giving XP to my defenders. I seem to remember at one point in FF they would just pillage improvements and only attack cities in force.

Animals should stay out of borders and be the hostile wilderness. The animals should be strong enough to make going out into the wilderness with only 1-2 units a mistake, but not so strong that it takes a ton of dead warriors to take down 1 animal (damn str 9 bears). Maybe have many reasonably powered animals (3-4 str) roaming around, but have a few "mythical" beasts (the str 9 packs and such) that make you go "oh crap!" and decide it would be best to explore another area. Right now (at least to my understanding of the system), those weak units are turned off when a certain tech is reached and all you are left seeing are those high-powered animals (which feels like it happens quickly since the tech tree in this game encourages going down only 1 or 2 branches).

I know the animals are being rebalanced, so much of this or something else has probably already been done, but the thread was here, so it doesn't hurt to share :p.

I think it's silly to have common animals stronger than the best hero units. Animals haven't been a real threat to humans since the invention of the pointed stick, an entire civilization being destroyed by a single hungry bear is just ridiculous. I think animals and barbs should be weaker than your own units (with the exception of special ones IE Orthus), but maybe have them congregate more near their lairs, so wandering around alone and blindly carries the risk of being ganged up on. Otherwise they should be free exp to fuel your units for the real fighting against other civs.

Here's my thinking on the matter:
Savages should behave basically like a normal civilization that is always at war. Their individual units should be of the same power level as a normal player. They should stake out territory and defend it, when they do march on a city they should do it with substantial numbers. So basically I'm fine with their current mechanics (although they need to be able to keep up better late game) but I'd like an AI change so they build up more rather than wandering all over the place.
Demons are fine as is, if anything the top third of the AC could use a slight nerf. However I think more lair spawns should be demon, as that will give them a bit more of an early game presence.
Animals definitely need work. The old implementation never made much sense to me - a herd of deer big enough to feed my entire civilization can live on a single tile and be managed by guys so weak they're only represented by an improvement, but a lone stag can wipe out a fully equipped veteran scout patrol? I'd like to see the animal/beast distinction sharpened. Beasts should fulfill the same purpose they do now (keeping big sections of wilderness uninhabited) but they should do it as things that actually make sense as threats to entire armies. They should also do so from the start - technology-based spawns would be wonderful for demons or savages, but it makes little sense for the primal world. Animals, in contrast, should not be threats but instead be valuable resources to track down.

I think it's silly to have common animals stronger than the best hero units. Animals haven't been a real threat to humans since the invention of the pointed stick, an entire civilization being destroyed by a single hungry bear is just ridiculous. I think animals and barbs should be weaker than your own units (with the exception of special ones IE Orthus), but maybe have them congregate more near their lairs, so wandering around alone and blindly carries the risk of being ganged up on. Otherwise they should be free exp to fuel your units for the real fighting against other civs.

Wait, they haven't? How many thousands of people are killed by animals each year, even NOW? :p

Honestly, they should be very dangerous to a small group out in the wild. I agree about the bear, though... I had thought the ability to enter borders would be harder to get for early animals. :lol:

As for 'they should be free exp to fuel your units for the real fighting against other civs.', I completely and totally disagree. If you want that, I'm sorry, but go play a different FfH modmod. In RifE, they have a different function, that of preserving wilderness/slowing expansion, and they WILL maintain that purpose, regardless of any future balancing. :goodjob:

Here's my thinking on the matter:
Savages should behave basically like a normal civilization that is always at war. Their individual units should be of the same power level as a normal player. They should stake out territory and defend it, when they do march on a city they should do it with substantial numbers. So basically I'm fine with their current mechanics (although they need to be able to keep up better late game) but I'd like an AI change so they build up more rather than wandering all over the place.
Demons are fine as is, if anything the top third of the AC could use a slight nerf. However I think more lair spawns should be demon, as that will give them a bit more of an early game presence.
Animals definitely need work. The old implementation never made much sense to me - a herd of deer big enough to feed my entire civilization can live on a single tile and be managed by guys so weak they're only represented by an improvement, but a lone stag can wipe out a fully equipped veteran scout patrol? I'd like to see the animal/beast distinction sharpened. Beasts should fulfill the same purpose they do now (keeping big sections of wilderness uninhabited) but they should do it as things that actually make sense as threats to entire armies. They should also do so from the start - technology-based spawns would be wonderful for demons or savages, but it makes little sense for the primal world. Animals, in contrast, should not be threats but instead be valuable resources to track down.

First off, I agree with the basic idea behind the Savage section. For now, I'm okay with them wandering. In the event that we add Revolutions (Or at least, the barb aspect of it), we can change them to build up.

The one point here that I agree with is that Animals/Beasts should be more distinct. The rest... What exactly do you mean, valuable resources? I think that is covered decently well by the buildings virtually every animal offers.

I think the main problem with animals is the speed with which they increase in lethality. Combat prowess of baseline animals is just fine, but with STR gain, Pack mechanics and promotions their progressions is way faster than anyone can move up the ranger tech line.

Some ideas for improving early balance:
Can the extra scouts for the AI on higher levels. ATM they are primarily XP fodder for animals, excarbating the problem by spawning more fodder out of lairs. (In my games the animals and barbs seem to be at war most of the time anyway).
Slow the combat power progression of animals: Reduce XP gain and/or limit animal promos to first strike and withdrawal promos. Reduce the chance for upgrading to a pack.

More radical version: As the unitclass beast is scheduled to be reserved for dragons and the like, split the animals in two variants:
(1) "Normal" animals which are mostly nonagressive, maybe even unable to attack. Most of those should be easy to handle by hunters and up.
(2) "Magically altered" animals which are more in line with how animals act now, but a bit less numerous. Give those a special promotion which enables base power increase and a few powerups. Make them unable to be captured by recon units (their twisted minds just cannot be controlled) to avoid the animal army abuse that is possible now.
Reserve pack mechanics for those.
Animals could aquire this promotion randomly or by strolling over haunted lands.

A variation of this: having two distinct populations of animals
(1) Nuisance/Cage fodder: Randomly distributed, low thread as an individual unit, try to avoid settled lands (like FFH).
(2) Territorial top-of-the-foodchain "Monsters" (sabretooth,cavebear,Direwolves, etc.): leashed to a specific location, they will fiercely guard they claimed territory, and have the combat power to enforce this claim. They will ignore cultural borders and will have to be defeated to open up a certain area for settlement.

A lot of good feedback and comments here...

Maybe the animals are too strong, but the one thing I really, really like about the way the whole RifE system works now is that it DOES slow down expansion. Again, I think this has a lot to do with the size (and maybe type) of map you play as well as your game speed.

In slower games on larger maps, the last thing you want is a fully settled map by turn 300 with another 700 to go - at least, I don't care for this. It slows down the game (time between turns is long), makes CTDs more likely, and eliminates the animals, savages, etc. from the game.

In my games so far there have been challenges, all a little different, from all three of the bad guys.

1. Animals. Exploration is tougher, but you also can pick up some strong allies in the form of captured strong animals like Giant Lizards. The Grand Menagerie seems easier to build now.

2. Savages. Yes, they seem weaker. However, it is still challenging when you get a pack of Wolf Riders on your border all of a sudden. Or Frostling Archers which can be tough to kill. I had one barb bad guy, Zarkoz the Long-Sighted spawn three times in my last game. Maybe that was a bug, but he was a tough egg to crack. Taking goblin forts early on in the game is tough.

3. Demons. When the AC hit 30, I really had my hands full. Fire Elementals, Drowns, Pyre Zombies, Diseased Corpses, Liches, and the toughest of all...Manticores. The latter spawned regularly and were very tough to defeat.

Personally, I find RifE the most challenging and most fun of any of the mods to date. When you add the threat of AI civs (turn on the Agressive AI Challenge), you have one great game.

Yes, maybe there should be some tweaking, but I think the guys have finally solved the age old expansion happy problem and I would hate to see that get nerfed.

Personally I play with the option that does not allow them in borders. No civs are being wiped out by them in my games.

That said I think they do ramp up a tad faster than I would like, but not the end of the world one way or the other.

A lot of good feedback and comments here...

Maybe the animals are too strong, but the one thing I really, really like about the way the whole RifE system works now is that it DOES slow down expansion. Again, I think this has a lot to do with the size (and maybe type) of map you play as well as your game speed.

In slower games on larger maps, the last thing you want is a fully settled map by turn 300 with another 700 to go - at least, I don't care for this. It slows down the game (time between turns is long), makes CTDs more likely, and eliminates the animals, savages, etc. from the game.

In my games so far there have been challenges, all a little different, from all three of the bad guys.

1. Animals. Exploration is tougher, but you also can pick up some strong allies in the form of captured strong animals like Giant Lizards. The Grand Menagerie seems easier to build now.

2. Savages. Yes, they seem weaker. However, it is still challenging when you get a pack of Wolf Riders on your border all of a sudden. Or Frostling Archers which can be tough to kill. I had one barb bad guy, Zarkoz the Long-Sighted spawn three times in my last game. Maybe that was a bug, but he was a tough egg to crack. Taking goblin forts early on in the game is tough.

3. Demons. When the AC hit 30, I really had my hands full. Fire Elementals, Drowns, Pyre Zombies, Diseased Corpses, Liches, and the toughest of all...Manticores. The latter spawned regularly and were very tough to defeat.

Personally, I find RifE the most challenging and most fun of any of the mods to date. When you add the threat of AI civs (turn on the Agressive AI Challenge), you have one great game.

Yes, maybe there should be some tweaking, but I think the guys have finally solved the age old expansion happy problem and I would hate to see that get nerfed.

Wait, Zarcaz spawned three times? Was it actually three separate times, or did he spawn just one time with a few minions? He comes into the game with 3 minions already under his control. :goodjob:

Personally I play with the option that does not allow them in borders. No civs are being wiped out by them in my games.

That said I think they do ramp up a tad faster than I would like, but not the end of the world one way or the other.

Fairly sure that Vermicious said he underestimated the speed with which the game starts spawning higher power animals, so that should be scaled back a bit.

The one point here that I agree with is that Animals/Beasts should be more distinct. The rest... What exactly do you mean, valuable resources? I think that is covered decently well by the buildings virtually every animal offers.
The buildings are a good start, but it's quite easy to catch all you need of a particular animal and then ignore them. I'd like to see more reusable benefits for continued hunting, like sacrificing for a food boost or XP or a promotion.
I'd like for animals to be things you want to actively search for, not things that make you run away in terror. They should be able to give Scouts a decent challenge but not Hunters unless they've got a decent amount of experience/age.
When a beast shows up, it should be pretty much unassailable until you have a few Rangers. But it should also stay dead, and not be something that spawns in triplicate every few turns.

If we made that change (Weak animals, Strong but rare beasts), the hinterlands would go out the window, and we'd be back at the rapid expansion. Honestly, I never liked how quickly you go from buidup to finish, with a few hundred turns of mop-up left to do... So I'm not going to make that change.

Good feedback. :goodjob:


My flavor assumption here is that nature is consciously ramping up resistance to the expansion of civilization as the game progresses. This is why relatively innocuous critters are being replaced with nastier versions...nature is taking the tools at hand and adapting them for war. Techs are just convenient markers to scale from. :)

In the current version nothing stronger than power 4-5 will spawn initially...although most critters have a small chance of upgrading after combat. I put in breaks in the upgrade paths so nothing is going to upgrade the whole way up...the worst thing a lion will turn into is a lion pride, for example.

As for adding a few early beasts...this is doable (I think), although not with the standard spawn mechanic. I'll look into it.

If we made that change (Weak animals, Strong but rare beasts), the hinterlands would go out the window, and we'd be back at the rapid expansion. Honestly, I never liked how quickly you go from buidup to finish, with a few hundred turns of mop-up left to do... So I'm not going to make that change.


Agreed. A few strong beasts at game start might be fun anyway though. :D

Could maybe spawn them like Orthus, but rather than a random location we look for a large patch of a certain terrain/feature (Forest, in this case), and then have the unit set to be unable to move out of Forest? Would make for a localized threat, and would also pretty much rule out expansion into that forest for a long time. :lol:

Wait, Zarcaz spawned three times? Was it actually three separate times, or did he spawn just one time with a few minions? He comes into the game with 3 minions already under his control. :goodjob:



Yes, I killed him twice and saw him again in the later stages of my game and left him alone. He was fortified in a city.

I was finally able to finish a game...my 8th.:woohoo: It was a Cultural Victory for the Balseraphs around Turn 650. I had CTDs throughout, but was able to go back a few turns and continue.

If you think the animals are tough, build Nature's Revolt. Actually, though, you don't have to worry as you get peace with the animals. The AI never seems to build that ritual.

And, speaking of beasts...I got Gurid, Magladard (or whatever), the fish monster (forget his name) and TumTum (not a beast I guess) all fairly early in my Epic speed game. The AC never got above 35, so no Horsemen, but the number of Manticores spawned that created some havoc inside my borders was not a few.

If we made that change (Weak animals, Strong but rare beasts), the hinterlands would go out the window, and we'd be back at the rapid expansion. Honestly, I never liked how quickly you go from buidup to finish, with a few hundred turns of mop-up left to do... So I'm not going to make that change.
If you think what I'm proposing will make rapid expansion easier then I clearly haven't explained myself properly. I'm not talking about raptor packs that move around in a forest occasionally killing things. I'm talking about Rocs that sit on a peak and kill anything that moves within five tiles. Or Basilisks that hide in the woods and petrify an entire stack so it can pick them off one by one. Beasts should be creatures that are clearly visible threats that say "this area is off limits".
Could maybe spawn them like Orthus, but rather than a random location we look for a large patch of a certain terrain/feature (Forest, in this case), and then have the unit set to be unable to move out of Forest? Would make for a localized threat, and would also pretty much rule out expansion into that forest for a long time. :lol:
Something like this.

If you think what I'm proposing will make rapid expansion easier then I clearly haven't explained myself properly. I'm not talking about raptor packs that move around in a forest occasionally killing things. I'm talking about Rocs that sit on a peak and kill anything that moves within five tiles. Or Basilisks that hide in the woods and petrify an entire stack so it can pick them off one by one. Beasts should be creatures that are clearly visible threats that say "this area is off limits".

Something like this.

I agree with that... But the way it works, is either you have them spawning randomly, or you don't have enough to limit expansion.

If you think what I'm proposing will make rapid expansion easier then I clearly haven't explained myself properly. I'm not talking about raptor packs that move around in a forest occasionally killing things. I'm talking about Rocs that sit on a peak and kill anything that moves within five tiles. Or Basilisks that hide in the woods and petrify an entire stack so it can pick them off one by one. Beasts should be creatures that are clearly visible threats that say "this area is off limits".

Something like this.

That's pretty much what happens now when Acheron spawns in a city. That city cannot be taken for a long time in the game and it does have some affect on expansion. It used to be true of the Pristine Pass and spawning gargoyles, but I haven't seen that feature in my games.

The demon hinterlands and barb cities with a strong defender (like Zarcas) can also have this effect for awhile.

I guess the key to your idea would be the placement of the Great Beasts. I mean if I happen to get a Roc or a Basilisk close to my border I might be screwed on expanding for a long time, while another AI civ on the other side of the map expands like crazy because there is no Great Beast around his borders.

That's why I like the strong animal system in place now because it seems to affect all the civs equally. If you could figure out a way to have the Great Beast system affect everyone equally, it would be good too.

I'm going to wait until things are a little further toward finished status before I comment. As of now, I like the direction things are heading in. Though I do consider it a large pain in the ass when my units are picked off left right and center by invisible fear instilling baby and regular spiders.

I've had some funny moments with the animals. Thinking I was doing okay vs. a nasty neighbour, then meeting the "peace at animals" Charadon of Doviello with 3x my score and a huge, huge REX style civilization. Oops! Most valuable trait in the game all of a sudden!

:lol: Yes, barbs need to be strengthened so that they are a valid threat as well. The Barbarian and Feral traits will always be good for early expansion though... Which is probably a good thing, as without them, those civs tend to stagnate.

i love the animals the way they are currently, since it offers the challenger and it prevents from exploring the whole map too soon, which is more interesting . the only issue i have is that AI doesn't seem to handle them well ( in 5 games, standard map, 7 players, 4 were destructed before turn 50 each time, i had to add them back with worldbuilder and a few more troops, once i did that i has some of my funniest games so far with FF+/rife)

The current function animals serve is to wipe multiple AI civs off the map inside the first fifty turns.

How this is a good thing, I'm not sure.

edit - posted this before I read what black_imperator said, lol :)

The current function animals serve is to wipe multiple AI civs off the map inside the first fifty turns.

How this is a good thing, I'm not sure.

edit - posted this before I read what black_imperator said, lol :)

Again, we underestimated the speed with which the animals would escalate, or gain entry to borders. :lol:

That will be fixed, but they will maintain the ability to control the wilds.

while we are talking about creatures that wipe out civs within 50 turns. Those darn Stygian guards from Rinwell are deadly. Maybe they should start as drowns and become Stygians after x turns or after a certain tech.

I believe this has already been mentioned in slightly different terms; but, the current survivability rates for the human player isn't really affected by the change. The Ai, however, will either do horrible because of non-expansion or even death by an animal invader or do amazing because they are somehow defended against animals --either with the feral trait, or with a staring location that is isolated--.

For me, the greatest flaw with the current system is that the player tends to be able to assess his location and guard his cities/settlers accordingly. After a game or two, knowing what is a worker-able guard isn't crazily difficult--though an occasional cave-bear might pop-up an ruin the best of laid plans--. While the player can do all of this, the Ai is left to the winds and will flourish or perish as the gusts of the animals take them.

To simplify this post, I am happy with the animals--after they get the future minor tweaks--; but, I am not happy with how the Ai response to their presence.

Edit: I lied; I think the animals --or perhaps barbs in general-- could be stronger in the early game --as of now* they don't seem to be of any strength until AC is 100 and hell terrain surrounds you--; but, before that happens, the Ai would have to be pushed harder. *Now referring to after the spawn mechanic is going to be tweaked.

while we are talking about creatures that wipe out civs within 50 turns. Those darn Stygian guards from Rinwell are deadly. Maybe they should start as drowns and become Stygians after x turns or after a certain tech.

EVERY game I play, I must rebuild at least one AI civ because of the damn Stygians!

EVERY game I play, I must rebuild at least one AI civ because of the damn Stygians!

It's being hit with the nerf stick hard, no worries. :lol:


It's territorial radius will go down to 3 tiles, from 5-6.
It will actually be a chain of improvements... The first will be spawning Drowns, after a while it will upgrade to a stronger drown, and then finally will be Stygians.

That will be fixed, but they will maintain the ability to control the wilds.

Ah cool, got no problem with that :)
I've been disabling animal invasion anyway since it was a good workaround for the 'AI civs getting destroyed' issue. My scouts :):):):) their pants, metaphorically speaking, when I tell them to leave my borders, but I like it that way.

I like the challenge it gives but I hate how theres lizards wandering in the desert and all those animals in out of place areas. Maybe put a limit to where they can roam, which will also make it easier to know what areas to watch out for, as far_wanderer suggested.

I half-planned for something like that before this thread started, honestly. Basically, limit animals to the terrains they can spawn in....

My problem with it is it's a bit too limited. I really don't have a problem with an animal in sort-of out of place areas (Lizards in the desert? They're one of the most successful animals there, honestly. Giant lizard or small, they've still traditionally done well).

Right now you can only specify which terrains/features a unit is allowed to move through. So if you set it to require Forest, it can ONLY move in that forest. With Opera's tweak to fix the reqs, you can even set it to require both a terrain and a feature... So only icy forests for a Yeti, and so on.

What I'd much rather have, and just need to find the time to code (not hard, just not high priority while working on other things) is the ability to set what terrain/feature types a unit may NOT enter. For one thing, we could strengthen Mounted units but forbid them from entering most features... Or we could have an animal spawn in one location, and preserve it's ability to wander out, but block it from entering an absurd spot. Again, don't have a problem with lizards... But what about Apes in the desert? Things like that bug me as well. :lol:

Wait, they haven't? How many thousands of people are killed by animals each year, even NOW? :p

I think it's more like a hundred or two, mostly children, almost none of them being armed in any way.

Honestly, they should be very dangerous to a small group out in the wild. I agree about the bear, though... I had thought the ability to enter borders would be harder to get for early animals. :lol:

As for 'they should be free exp to fuel your units for the real fighting against other civs.', I completely and totally disagree. If you want that, I'm sorry, but go play a different FfH modmod. In RifE, they have a different function, that of preserving wilderness/slowing expansion, and they WILL maintain that purpose, regardless of any future balancing. :goodjob:

I'm not seeing a slowdown in expansion, I wasn't even aware that was the intent. Sure a few unlucky civs get mauled by bears in the first 100 turns, but the civs that gain any sort of foothold can easily throw small stacks of weak units at animals and clear the way for new cities. It doesn't slow them down, it just makes them weaker later on, when another civ turns on them they fall quickly because it took half their army to kill a few lizards.

It's not a big enough issue that I would play another mod over, especially since I can just turn them off, or add the feral trait to a leader. :p

is the autorisation an OR or an AND ?? and can you allow multiple features ?
I mean : could you not make it so it goes into "forest or grassland" or would that goes : "forest+grassland" ?

jungle or swamp or river
desert or plain
hills or plain
tundra or ice or plain

I'm not currently playing RiFe, but Wildmana. but it seems the animal system is mostly the same.
I'm happy with it. strong enough to bother me, maybe it can enter borders too soon but that has been said.
what is bothersome is that cultural expension is so fast (especially the AI) that animals soon have no space for them... I propose that maybe some semi-strong animals should be able to spawn inside cultural borders if there are 4-5-6-8 consecutive tiles without any improvement so as to represent that you claimed the land but did not tame it. it would be ressource intensive to evaluate each turn those areas... but maybe someone may have a better idea.

otherwise it seems to me that the savage fighting the animals is a bit to big.
maybe to should be able to fight but do not do it too much.
currently most frostling and goblins become wolf riders,
most barb stack of 2-3 are killed fighting strong animals or at least damaged. And moslty they won't wander a lot in my territory. only skelettons and wolfriders tries. the axemen, barb and warriors, goblins wander around and never bother me inside my borders.

I half-planned for something like that before this thread started, honestly. Basically, limit animals to the terrains they can spawn in....

My problem with it is it's a bit too limited. I really don't have a problem with an animal in sort-of out of place areas (Lizards in the desert? They're one of the most successful animals there, honestly. Giant lizard or small, they've still traditionally done well).

Right now you can only specify which terrains/features a unit is allowed to move through. So if you set it to require Forest, it can ONLY move in that forest. With Opera's tweak to fix the reqs, you can even set it to require both a terrain and a feature... So only icy forests for a Yeti, and so on.

What I'd much rather have, and just need to find the time to code (not hard, just not high priority while working on other things) is the ability to set what terrain/feature types a unit may NOT enter. For one thing, we could strengthen Mounted units but forbid them from entering most features... Or we could have an animal spawn in one location, and preserve it's ability to wander out, but block it from entering an absurd spot. Again, don't have a problem with lizards... But what about Apes in the desert? Things like that bug me as well. :lol:

I appreciate your desire to make the mod more realistic by tweaking the animals by limiting them to certain terrain. However, I wonder how much realism you need in a fantasy-based mod. Yes, it's true in our world you will probably not see Apes in the desert. However, you also will likely not run into many Dragons, Pyre Zombies, or Loki either. ;)

IMO it's better to just let animals spawn pretty much everywhere (except maybe water tiles), otherwise you run into a debate on whether Hamsters can survive on ice, Mammoths would get all sweaty and smell bad in a desert, etc. :)

I think it's more like a hundred or two, mostly children, almost none of them being armed in any way.



I'm not seeing a slowdown in expansion, I wasn't even aware that was the intent. Sure a few unlucky civs get mauled by bears in the first 100 turns, but the civs that gain any sort of foothold can easily throw small stacks of weak units at animals and clear the way for new cities. It doesn't slow them down, it just makes them weaker later on, when another civ turns on them they fall quickly because it took half their army to kill a few lizards.

It's not a big enough issue that I would play another mod over, especially since I can just turn them off, or add the feral trait to a leader. :p

is the autorisation an OR or an AND ?? and can you allow multiple features ?
I mean : could you not make it so it goes into "forest or grassland" or would that goes : "forest+grassland" ?

jungle or swamp or river
desert or plain
hills or plain
tundra or ice or plain

I'm not currently playing RiFe, but Wildmana. but it seems the animal system is mostly the same.
I'm happy with it. strong enough to bother me, maybe it can enter borders too soon but that has been said.
what is bothersome is that cultural expension is so fast (especially the AI) that animals soon have no space for them... I propose that maybe some semi-strong animals should be able to spawn inside cultural borders if there are 4-5-6-8 consecutive tiles without any improvement so as to represent that you claimed the land but did not tame it. it would be ressource intensive to evaluate each turn those areas... but maybe someone may have a better idea.

otherwise it seems to me that the savage fighting the animals is a bit to big.
maybe to should be able to fight but do not do it too much.
currently most frostling and goblins become wolf riders,
most barb stack of 2-3 are killed fighting strong animals or at least damaged. And moslty they won't wander a lot in my territory. only skelettons and wolfriders tries. the axemen, barb and warriors, goblins wander around and never bother me inside my borders.

Wild Mana's system is similar, but not really the same. That said, Sephi HAS merged alot of animals from RifE. :p

At the moment, we can't allow an animal to enter Forest OR Grass, or any other combination of Feature and Terrain. With the old system you could, but you'd also have animals meant to be locked to Marsh able to wander off through the Jungle.

You CAN allow multiple Feature/Terrain types, but river is not one of them... Though I've been thinking of adding a bRiverSide tag.

I appreciate your desire to make the mod more realistic by tweaking the animals by limiting them to certain terrain. However, I wonder how much realism you need in a fantasy-based mod. Yes, it's true in our world you will probably not see Apes in the desert. However, you also will likely not run into many Dragons, Pyre Zombies, or Loki either. ;)

IMO it's better to just let animals spawn pretty much everywhere (except maybe water tiles), otherwise you run into a debate on whether Hamsters can survive on ice, Mammoths would get all sweaty and smell bad in a desert, etc. :)

The main issue with them spawning anywhere, is you suddenly stop seeing some of the animals each game. And I just can't stand CERTAIN animals in odd locations. Mammoths are a good example... They're meant to be tundra/ice animals, regular elephants have the grasslands and plains.

Wild Mana's system is similar, but not really the same. That said, Sephi HAS merged alot of animals from RifE. :p

I would say the systems are very different. They are similar in that Animals aren't free xp anymore.:D

The new Animals in Rife are really really cool. though I think some could use more special abilities :D

The main issue with them spawning anywhere, is you suddenly stop seeing some of the animals each game. And I just can't stand CERTAIN animals in odd locations. Mammoths are a good example... They're meant to be tundra/ice animals, regular elephants have the grasslands and plains.

I've noticed despite playing the same map all the time (Fantasy Realm) with the same options, I still get a different mix of animals. As I mentioned, in my last game I saw very few Lizards and Sabretooths, but plenty of Bunyips (not much water on the map) and loads of Hamsters. In my current game, not a single Bunyips so far, and only a couple of Hamsters.

I hear what you are saying about some animals disappearing and it is particularly aggravating when you can't get that Gorilla to build the Grand Menagerie, for example. But, it just seems to me it would open a can of worms if you tried to exactly match each kind of animal with terrain types. Speaking of worms, why no worms (Dune) or snakes ever in any FFH games, mods?

You haven't come across a Wyrm yet? They spawn in Deserts, Marsh, and Snow. ;)

There are no snakes because noone has made a decent animation for them. Sandworms, on the other hand....

I've noticed despite playing the same map all the time (Fantasy Realm) with the same options, I still get a different mix of animals. As I mentioned, in my last game I saw very few Lizards and Sabretooths, but plenty of Bunyips (not much water on the map) and loads of Hamsters. In my current game, not a single Bunyips so far, and only a couple of Hamsters.

I hear what you are saying about some animals disappearing and it is particularly aggravating when you can't get that Gorilla to build the Grand Menagerie, for example. But, it just seems to me it would open a can of worms if you tried to exactly match each kind of animal with terrain types. Speaking of worms, why no worms (Dune) or snakes ever in any FFH games, mods?

I'm working on getting more even spawn variety. We are dealing with new tags, so it is trial and error.

Sandworms spawn a bit later, by which time the rate of animal spawns is tapering off. That too will be examined.

You haven't come across a Wyrm yet? They spawn in Deserts, Marsh, and Snow. ;)


They can also travel in Forest and Jungle. Your only safe on the plains...

They can also travel in Forest and Jungle. Your only safe on the plains...

Not as of the last patch, that was fixed. Whole reason for Opera's tweak, actually, was animals like the Wyrms meant to be locked to a set terrain.

Whw, that's a relief.

Yeah, I was planning on fixing the setup specifically because of the Wyrms... Then Opera went and did it, so I just used that. :lol:

I would like to officially change my vote. I hadn't had any problems with this before, but in my latest game (Marathon, huge map), the animals are stupid OP.
In my current game, I don't even have bronze working, and have had my military terrorized by a cave bear for a while. It wouldn't be such an issue if I could actually attack it.

After it destroyed another civilization, it upgraded to a pack. After spending over an hour trying multiple ways to kill it, I got pissed off and WB'd in an Avatar of Wrath. The attached picture was the result.

I would like to know how the hell players are supposed to deal with something like that lurking right outside their borders when all they can build is warriors.

As funny as I find that....

Vermicious already broke up the upgrade lines for animals. Raptors can become Raptor Packs, but not Allosaurs, for example.

As funny as I find that....

Vermicious already broke up the upgrade lines for animals. Raptors can become Raptor Packs, but not Allosaurs, for example.


I could always reverse that. Cave bears eating the AoW makes me happy on a visceral level. :D

I could always reverse that. Cave bears eating the AoW makes me happy on a visceral level. :D

Eh, the Avatar is late game so the Cave Bears will still be able to. :lol:

My problem with it is it's a bit too limited. I really don't have a problem with an animal in sort-of out of place areas (Lizards in the desert? They're one of the most successful animals there, honestly. Giant lizard or small, they've still traditionally done well).


Those lizards dont seem to be like the ones that live in the desert or arid regions when they have water walking promos which would make it seem like they are the amphibious ones.

Those lizards dont seem to be like the ones that live in the desert or arid regions when they have water walking promos which would make it seem like they are the amphibious ones.

Only because of the promotion. Honestly, I'm fine with the same animal being used to represent different species. Look at the Wyrm, it's used for Marsh, Desert, and Ice. About the most diverse terrains you can get. :lol: It's only a problem when you have art specific to one region or the other, like with Mammoth/Elephants.

You haven't come across a Wyrm yet? They spawn in Deserts, Marsh, and Snow. ;)

There are no snakes because noone has made a decent animation for them. Sandworms, on the other hand....

It goes back to my point about each game seeming to have a different subset of animals. In my first few games of RifE (I guess it was still FF+ then), I had some of those Wyrm pests. However, I have not seen them in the last 4-5 games.

I have played epic speed games up to 600 turns. I have seen some of the Great Beasts (Gurid, Magladard, Fish Monster, etc.), but none of the Great Animals that have been mentioned - Sandworms, Cave Bear Pack, Allosaurus, T-Rex, only a couple of Raptors.

I am not complaining as this is kinda fun getting a different group of animals each time. One dirty trick I just figured out with these animals to play on the AI (as if you needed another one) is to build Nature's Revolt. It created mostly Lions (with Heroic Strength and Defense 1 and 2), but also made other animals, AND my legion of captured spiders and lizards stronger too. And, of course, I was now at peace with the animals. It's fun watching the AI deal with that ritual. haha

Right now turning off animal invasion makes it a lot more fun.

I like the default animals way more. All those upgrade paths and super animals are just too much overkill. While I like a method to let the wilderness stay wild for a while longer, I think animals are an early game solution, while barbarians and demons should take the task for the rest of the game.
Also, those dragons are a huge lore killer. I occasionally scan the map via wb and delete those.
It would be cool if barbarian units would take the job of those animals, grow a bit stronger over time and form hordes similar to the animal packs. Orthus could maybe spawn as a horde, because right now he's ridiculously weak. I hadn't spawn him anyways and just add him via wb, but even if he was there by turn one there would be stronger bears on the map very very quickly.

I like the default animals way more. All those upgrade paths and super animals are just too much overkill. While I like a method to let the wilderness stay wild for a while longer, I think animals are an early game solution, while barbarians and demons should take the task for the rest of the game.
Also, those dragons are a huge lore killer. I occasionally scan the map via wb and delete those.
It would be cool if barbarian units would take the job of those animals, grow a bit stronger over time and form hordes similar to the animal packs. Orthus could maybe spawn as a horde, because right now he's ridiculously weak. I hadn't spawn him anyways and just add him via wb, but even if he was there by turn one there would be stronger bears on the map very very quickly.

In theory, that should be the way it works in terms of challenges for the player:

Early game: Animals

Mid-game: Savages

Late-game:Demons

Throughout: AI Civs (and I have to add the Frozen to this as they are a new pain in the butt ;))

However, if you nerf the animals in the early game, you likely will not see the Savages or Demons later on IMO. The AI expansion will fill the map not leaving any place for the spawning of the bad guys.

As it is now, I think you see some overlapping of the timeline above. You see some Savages in the early game, Stygian Guards, the occasional Skeleton, or nasty sprung from a lair. Mid-game, plenty of animals hanging around, still a few Demons, more Savages. Late-game, more demons, less Savages, maybe less Animals, unless, of course, you build Nature's Revolt.

Of the three, I think the Savages now pose the least threat. You still occasionally see a small stack of 5 units like Frostling Riders, etc., but they are easily handled. The Animals in the beginning are problematic until you get Animal Husbandry and Hunting. IMO, the biggest challenge comes if you make it into the later part of the game and the AC is high. You can really get a severe Demon problem, especially if you are near their territory.

I really love the new animal system. Armed, varied and dangerous. And a great reward once you're able to capture them. Makes going for animal husbandry and hunters an excellent choice.
Just one quick comment. The mechanics for Allosaur spawning allowed me to build an unstoppable all-Allosaur pack cavalry quite easily. Within 40 turns (playing at normal speed) I had 13 Allosaurs and 9 Allosaur Packs. Made pretty much all my other units, secong-tier Jotnar units, obsolete. I would recommend that the spawning rate of new Allosaurs be reduced to one fith or one thourth its current rate, probably also reducing the chance they will upgrade.
On other topic, in the Peruvian Andes, guinea pigs are a delicacy. I would really love to capture those dread hamsters and take them to a city, for extra food generation. Also, it would be great if the new animal-beasts could be captured to build additional buidlings.

I really love the new animal system. Armed, varied and dangerous. And a great reward once you're able to capture them. Makes going for animal husbandry and hunters an excellent choice.
Just one quick comment. The mechanics for Allosaur spawning allowed me to build an unstoppable all-Allosaur pack cavalry quite easily. Within 40 turns (playing at normal speed) I had 13 Allosaurs and 9 Allosaur Packs. Made pretty much all my other units, secong-tier Jotnar units, obsolete. I would recommend that the spawning rate of new Allosaurs be reduced to one fith or one thourth its current rate, probably also reducing the chance they will upgrade.
On other topic, in the Peruvian Andes, guinea pigs are a delicacy. I would really love to capture those dread hamsters and take them to a city, for extra food generation. Also, it would be great if the new animal-beasts could be captured to build additional buidlings.

Most animals have a building... Hamsters have the Hamster Wheel (+:hammers:), for example. :lol:

We do need a few more, I believe, for ones like the Lizards and Raptors...

And there have been blocks placed in the animal upgrade path. Raptors can upgrade to the Raptor Pack via combat, but the Pack can NOT become an Allosaur. Should remove the problems with early upgrades.

Most animals have a building... Hamsters have the Hamster Wheel (+:hammers:), for example. :lol:

We do need a few more, I believe, for ones like the Lizards and Raptors...

And there have been blocks placed in the animal upgrade path. Raptors can upgrade to the Raptor Pack via combat, but the Pack can NOT become an Allosaur. Should remove the problems with early upgrades.

Nice...

I meant the upgrade from Allosaur to Allosaur pack, and the random chance of generating a new Allosaur from winning battles with the Allosaur pack. As I mentioned, within 40 turns of capturing two Allosaurs I had about 23 of them, including 10 Allosaur packs (strenght 24).

On the whole, the changes introduced to the animals are quite refreshing and interesting. Very well done.

How do you get an Allosaur now? I've seen tons of Giant Lizards and the rare Raptor, but never an Allosaur or a T-Rex.

Also, how do you capture a Hamster? I've not been able to do so with my Hunter and the capture animal promotion.

Finally, as I mentioned before, how about a Grand Menagerie 2.0 with different animals and benefits? Just call it the San Diego Zoo, Jurassic Park or something. ;)

How do you get an Allosaur now? I've seen tons of Giant Lizards and the rare Raptor, but never an Allosaur or a T-Rex.

Also, how do you capture a Hamster? I've not been able to do so with my Hunter and the capture animal promotion.

Finally, as I mentioned before, how about a Grand Menagerie 2.0 with different animals and benefits? Just call it the San Diego Zoo, Jurassic Park or something. ;)

I believe hamsters are beasts in the release version. Already fixed.

My biggest issue with the animals at the moment is that with their power, you have to specifically not use a tactic (send hunters out to capture them) if you want an interesting game.

Otherwise you can quite easily end up with a animal army that can crush all it meets with no build cost.

Possible solutions:
Each animal requires someone in the stack (adjacent square?) with subdue animal otherwise it goes barbarian (or attach 1 animal to the hunter like great commanders). Means need to build & xp up lvl3/4 scout for each animal under control.

Alternative, when you capture an animal it has a captured animal promotion giving it major penalties. Once you get it back to a city you have to spend production to train it up as a controlled warbeast able to fight alongside your troops (i.e. remove the promotion). Means slows animal retrieval (requires escort back to city), and applies a build cost that can be tweaked for different animal types (still less than equivalent strength unit, and get higher strength units it would not be possible to build yet)

Drayath

My biggest issue with the animals at the moment is that with their power, you have to specifically not use a tactic (send hunters out to capture them) if you want an interesting game.

Otherwise you can quite easily end up with a animal army that can crush all it meets with no build cost.

Possible solutions:
Each animal requires someone in the stack (adjacent square?) with subdue animal otherwise it goes barbarian (or attach 1 animal to the hunter like great commanders). Means need to build & xp up lvl3/4 scout for each animal under control.

Alternative, when you capture an animal it has a captured animal promotion giving it major penalties. Once you get it back to a city you have to spend production to train it up as a controlled warbeast able to fight alongside your troops (i.e. remove the promotion). Means slows animal retrieval (requires escort back to city), and applies a build cost that can be tweaked for different animal types (still less than equivalent strength unit, and get higher strength units it would not be possible to build yet)

Drayath

Those are good ideas.

I've noticed whenever I capture a Mammoth now it gets the Enraged promotion and, usually, goes suicidal on me before I can turn it into a Mammoth Rider. One today I captured, it went off and killed a lizard, then, next turn it went off AGAIN and was killed. I've given up trying to capture Mammoths - they are damn hard to capture in the first place, and then you just lose them.

Maybe a similar mechanism for all captured animals would cut down on the size of animal armies...although it is reminiscent of the old crappy system for Ravenous Werewolves and AC 90 (when the Avatar of Wrath appeared).

It is pretty easy to make captured animals weak until you train them. Could also give a promo to the hunter rather than an actual captured unit...could then sacrifice the promo to build the animal-specific building. Would fit with the recon art for most civs...


Hmmmm.

At the momnent, animals stop gaining strength after they are captured. What if recon units (just beast master?) could cast a spell in a city with an animal and hunting lodge called "Train (whatever animal)" This would take x(5? 10?) turns to cast giving the animal exp.

Alternitivley, animals could be allowed to "join" with recon units with animal taming promo and beast taming promo (depending on wether it is an animal or beast).

My biggest issue with the animals at the moment is that with their power, you have to specifically not use a tactic (send hunters out to capture them) if you want an interesting game.

Otherwise you can quite easily end up with a animal army that can crush all it meets with no build cost.

Possible solutions:
Each animal requires someone in the stack (adjacent square?) with subdue animal otherwise it goes barbarian (or attach 1 animal to the hunter like great commanders). Means need to build & xp up lvl3/4 scout for each animal under control.

Alternative, when you capture an animal it has a captured animal promotion giving it major penalties. Once you get it back to a city you have to spend production to train it up as a controlled warbeast able to fight alongside your troops (i.e. remove the promotion). Means slows animal retrieval (requires escort back to city), and applies a build cost that can be tweaked for different animal types (still less than equivalent strength unit, and get higher strength units it would not be possible to build yet)

Drayath

When the strength of the animals is nerfed, there won't be any need for measures like this.

The animals are tough but a human can adapt and deal with it. The AI is pretty screwed most of the time. Last game i played (5 players, small map, emperor) by turn 200 i had 4 cities and a massive lead. I opened WB and found that every other either still in the capital or had an under developed 2nd city. This is the case in a lot of games. At the most extreme. one or maybe two civs are simply wiped out early (probably bad lair results as well).

If i play an animal friendly race, i can win on deity level without breaking a sweat. The problem is that the more powerful animals changes the entire balance of almost all the races. Any race with strong hunters and/or animal affinity have a huge bonus. I love the fact that you have truly created a wildlands mode that stops rapid land grab expansion but this is almost too extreme and makes certain races really difficult to play with.

However, i am really enjoying the games i play as i now up the difficulty level and try harder races. I often lose, especially if there are animal friendly AI's in the game or i cant break out of my starting location due to unlucky placement and nearby mega beasts that i cant even kill due to fear (sub 100 turn 6str stealth spiders with fear i assume is a bug or a very cruel joke :) )

So yesterday for the first time I came across a Thunder Lizard. It was a very strong Gurid-size Lizard.

However, before I could get a unit over to possibly capture it (Beast or Animal?) it had vanished. Now I seriously doubt there were any units around that could kill it. Is it just for a few turns or something that it appears?

Also, what exactly is it? Progression of the Lizard-Giant Lizard-Thunder Lizard line?

Still have not seen an Allosaur or T-Rex, but have to admit it is great fun discovering new animals in the wild and I am playing my 9th game of 1.12.

EDIT: Well, I managed to capture the elusive Thunderlizard with my Level 17 Ranger. The Thunderlizard was Strength 28 so I still had to feed it 3 captured Giant Lizards before I had decent odds with the Ranger. So, I now have a Strength 28 unit which can steamroller just about anything on the map...except the defender at Rinwell. I thought I would be able to send the Thunderlizard out to capture that demon isle. No dice, though. Is it possible to capture/raze Rinwell?

If the AI has a problem with the animals, the easiest thing might be to give it a bonus vs them, in the way we get bonuses against barbs on the lower settings. Or give certain classes of their units only (not hunters) so they don't suddenly get animal armies if they're not supposed to.

I'd much rather teach the AI to handle the animals, than give it yet another cheat. ;)

[QUOTE=Valkrionn;8633585]Wait, they haven't? How many thousands of people are killed by animals each year, even NOW? :pZero of thousands. Hundreds. Animal deaths are virtually exclusively when people are isolated, alone, and don't have weapons to defend themselves. IE, the antithesis of civilization and organized efforts, and certainly not organized, multi-person military units barring the most extreme circumstances. Animals have not provided an actual threat or barrier to civilization expansion for as long as civilization has existed. Weather and terrain have done far more damage and restricting than animals. Even bears.


I'll be frank: I think the animals are bad. Suck-balls horrible, even, for any sense of balance. I'll certainly unload the patch update. If your issue is that too many cities too fast, try making settlers harder. Increase cost two or threefold, make requirements, require a ritual, whatever. That will make cities harder to make, and so keep making 'filling up the map' harder. And frankly, if that's your problem, play a larger map. I recommend Perfect World 2: if you can settle that map by turn 300, you're cheating.

As it is, you've unbalanced the entire game and made one tech line, the recon line, all you need to win. It's just become another case of tech bee-lining, except now there's only one good tech path. I can sympathize with making the world harder to explore. But these aren't good ways to do it. I'll just complain about some of my issues with it as is.

In some cases, it's the base strength. It's simply too high for some early animals. And, as I've taken issue with the Monstrous creatures mod before, high base strength is something that is more unbalanced the comparitively higher it is; every combat promotion will add even more than comparative to weaker units. For the animals, starting with a strength comparable to tier two units is a bad mix.

Example I'll present was from my last game. On turn 17, there was already a strength 8 unit, a scorpion swarm with plenty more promotions possible. Even when it was a base scorpion, no promotions, a base 4 strength (2 being poison, making any survivor weak to another animal) outmatches anything but the most favorable, extreme defensive position of the very recon line that, you know, are supposed to be able to explore the map and do well against the animals. Some animals, especially giant spiders, that makes sense. But not that early.

Now, strength 8 is impressive around turn 100. Even 200. Round 20? That one scorpion could have taken over the world on its lonesome. And scorpions aren't even close to the most fearsome beast there.

Of course, that wasn't all it's abilities. Like invisibility. But more telling, I think, was the movement. Movement two. Somehow, a scorpion is not only as fast as a scout recon force, but faster than standard military. I was even more surprised when the next turn a strength 5 hill giant moved into my borders with +2 movement, attacked my city, and killed a warrior fortified on a hill.

Alright. Build more defenders. I get it; I had two, and so killed it when weaker. But 2 movement units are powerful in their own right. They do not need to be on immediate spawned units that already outclass everything else. You should be able to, you know, run away.


The animals might be interesting as another tick-box option; regular, the old more animals option, and then animal invasion for this, similar to barbarian swarms. But this isn't a good method to solve your stated issue (too fast settlement). The animals start able to kill everything even defending, only a few successes boost them beyond being able to catch up, and they're too fast. It should not take tier three units, or a beeline to the recon line, to merely walk outside your borders.

Expansion is not just about filling up territory. It's also meeting the other civs, exploring, and assorted tasks. Making settlers more expensive would fail to curtail that type of expansion.

Yes, the animals are currently a bit much... We underestimated how quickly animals would escalate.

As for 'Animals haven't been a threat as long as there's been civilization', lies. The Aussies lost a war against Emus. :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emu_War

If slowing expansion is your goal, you could introduce an ancient forest like spawn mechanism (although base it on occupied tiles on Cerunnos' turn as opposed to tile entry) when traveling outside of the visibility range of culture borders. Make the number of animals spawning scaling with number of cities, so you need larger and larger expeditions as time goes one. Putting a summons duration on the induced animal spawns would prevent early Str 12, Combat 5 raptor pack monstrosities and solve captured animal army problems. Maybe include a heal-debuff promotion on animal spawn that reduces healing rates until you move (allowing recon units to dispel it), to represent the army's camp getting swarmed and to doom too-small expeditions that try to fortify until healed. Maybe put much, much weaker triggered spawns in the visible, non-cultured tiles to keep people honest. Oh, and give the animals a unit-type beast promotion as well, to salve the feelings of those who believe animals should pose no threat to organized warriors. Top it off with normal, non-animal invasion animal spawns. The end result would make deep-wilds exploration quite doable, but a matter of putting together a full expedition with recon, combat and healing support. Expedition-esque behavior should be AI programmable.

As for 'Animals haven't been a threat as long as there's been civilization', lies. The Aussies lost a war against Emus. :p

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emu_WarThey lost nothing. There wasn't even a single human death. The only 'thread' from the animals was as pests eating crops, something aggrevated more by the environment and draught than a crisis brought on by the birds.

If you want to make a case about an animal threat, locust swarms are the one to look at. But even they destroyed crops, not people, who would only die from lack of crops.

Yes yes, I was being sarcastic there. :lol:

The key difference, is Erebus is NOT Earth. Here, animals are just that, animals. They are a threat, but only in vast numbers... And even then, mainly as carriers of Plague or Famine, not in their own right. In Erebus, there is Cernunnos, god of Nature... And since he took up the precept, Nature has become a more dangerous, unforgiven place. All this is from pre-existing lore.

All we've done is make the game match the lore, in a way that I like. More varied, stronger animals, slower expansion/exploration, more rewarding recon line. All good things.

Not to say it's perfect at the moment (Definitely is not), but I think we ARE on the right track here. And if you notice, pretty soon after Vermicious began working on the Animals other mods did the same... Orbis plans to borrow some, Wild Mana did something similar and borrowed some animals, and so on. Obviously, some people agree. ;)

Of course, if you'd like to argue your case a bit you could jump on #Erebus. I'm online, and check it every few minutes while playing Dragon Age. ;)

Yeah, when was the last time YOU saw a bear the size of a van attack and sink a warship? Hmm?:p
Or undead-plague-carrying-hamsters the size of large dogs?
This is Erbeus. Everything is trying to Kill you (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EverythingTryingToKillYou)(or Worse)

Yeah, when was the last time YOU saw a bear the size of a van attack and sink a warship? Hmm?:p
Or undead-plague-carrying-hamsters the size of large dogs?
This is Erbeus. Everything is trying to Kill you (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EverythingTryingToKillYou)(or Worse)

Yeah, I believe that would have been around the same time I saw a Centaur gallop down the street, or a Pyre Zombie explode, or Loki flip a city here in New Jersey, which as we all know lacks culture of any kind. ;)

The whole game/mod is based on fantasy and that gives you license to do just about anything you want if you are the game designer.

The key IMO is to adjust to the new version of the game. I'm really surprised to hear complaints from Human players as I am sure if they tried hard enough they could adapt to the game the way it is now. There are all kinds of ways to do that.

To be fair, though, the way the balance has been tipped is making the AI weaker. One of their strong points in the game is to be able to expand like crazy. Now they can't - in most games anyway. Maybe that wasn't the intent of the programmers in making the animals stronger and tougher, but IMO, it makes the game much more interesting and fun to play.

I really wish I could play on the larger maps like I can with FF, FFH2 or Orbis, but I get too many CTDs. So, I am stuck with a Standard sized map which would be filled very fast in a slower speed game. That eliminates the animals and the barbs totally - two of the fun elements of the game.

Maybe there are better ways to slow down the AI expansion - No Settlers and such. But each has its drawbacks and that's why the game has always been expansion-happy.

It's interesting that the poll is pretty much divided down the middle with half liking the way the animals are in 1.12 and the other half not liking it.

Let's see how the next version is tweaked.

Yeah, I believe that would have been around the same time I saw a Centaur gallop down the street, or a Pyre Zombie explode, or Loki flip a city here in New Jersey, which as we all know lacks culture of any kind. ;)

The whole game/mod is based on fantasy and that gives you license to do just about anything you want if you are the game designer.

The key IMO is to adjust to the new version of the game. I'm really surprised to hear complaints from Human players as I am sure if they tried hard enough they could adapt to the game the way it is now. There are all kinds of ways to do that.

To be fair, though, the way the balance has been tipped is making the AI weaker. One of their strong points in the game is to be able to expand like crazy. Now they can't - in most games anyway. Maybe that wasn't the intent of the programmers in making the animals stronger and tougher, but IMO, it makes the game much more interesting and fun to play.

My complaint is not that the animals harm the human player's game, but the AIs'. The game isn't fun if you adapt and use the advantage to steamroll the AIs (and neither is pulling your punches and making stupid decisions). I want a challenge and currently these AIs can't produce one (even with all the cheats they get). I'm just hoping they do much better after the next patch and I don't really care what the solution is as long as the AIs bring their A-game. :D

Also, it's annoying to have to keep restarting games because an AI player or 2 die 40 turns into the game. On standard maps with the default # of AIs, losing 1 that early sucks.

My complaint is not that the animals harm the human player's game, but the AIs'. The game isn't fun if you adapt and use the advantage to steamroll the AIs (and neither is pulling your punches and making stupid decisions). I want a challenge and currently these AIs can't produce one (even with all the cheats they get). I'm just hoping they do much better after the next patch and I don't really care what the solution is as long as the AIs bring their A-game. :D

Also, it's annoying to have to keep restarting games because an AI player or 2 die 40 turns into the game. On standard maps with the default # of AIs, losing 1 that early sucks.

Riot Starter, what difficulty do you use? At Prince I found just what you said happening - I did adapt to the tough animals. I beelined Animal Husbandry and Hunting. I captured weaker animals and fed them to the stronger ones to capture Lizard Packs, Giant Lizards, and even a Thunder Lizard. With my captured Lizard army I was able to go out and win a Conquest Victory. It wasn't a cakewalk, but it showed adaptation to the game as it is and then using what is available to win.

However, I moved up to Monarch and have found that the AI IS expanding again quickly and I am not able to use the same strategy. The map filled in short order. No AI civs were wiped out early on. The wilderness has disappeared before a third of the game is over.

Unfortunately, in this type of game I find things don't work for me. The game slows down, especially the time between turns and I often get CTDs. This is on a Standard-sized map. I just cannot even begin games on larger maps. For this reason, I will usually subtract one civ from the default starting AI civs so the map doesn't fill up so fast.

Again, it is not my computer. I have a decent rig and have no problems playing FFH2, Orbis or FF with Large or Huge maps.

I'm not saying increasing the difficulty will give you exactly the game you want, but there are a lot of game variables you can fiddle with to find what works for you. :)

Right now I'm playing Standard Erebus Continent (with high cohesion to make up for bad naval AI) with normal game speed with immortal AIs. I have the default # of AIs, but I'm thinking of adding more since then I could let a couple die and still have a good game.

Oh great. I just realized that I had animal invasions on... I turned it off, but something must have reset my options. The last couple games had that on then, which was why so many of my AIs were dying. With no animal invasions, I remember the AIs not doing too bad. I'll play a couple of games with it off to refresh my memory and see if they still are weak.

Right now I'm playing Standard Erebus Continent (with high cohesion to make up for bad naval AI) with normal game speed with immortal AIs. I have the default # of AIs, but I'm thinking of adding more since then I could let a couple die and still have a good game.

Oh great. I just realized that I had animal invasions on... I turned it off, but something must have reset my options. The last couple games had that on then, which was why so many of my AIs were dying. With no animal invasions, I remember the AIs not doing too bad. I'll play a couple of games with it off to refresh my memory and see if they still are weak.

Playing at Immortal difficulty I am surprised your games were not lasting longer.

Yes, it is a pain that you lose the variables you select from game to game and have to go back in there and select some and deselect some. I wish there was a way you could set exactly the game variables you want, save them, and then not have to go through all that with each new custom game. I often forget to turn off the Lighting/Quick Victories and that really ruins things.

Is there an easy way to "turn off" the feral trait? I find it makes things uneven for either me or the AIs who get it...

Is there an easy way to "turn off" the feral trait? I find it makes things uneven for either me or the AIs who get it...

Not really, no. Only beast civs get it, though... Would be like wanting to turn of Barbarian. ;)

Edit: Well, you could remove the trait from the leaders who get it in the XML. Would need to edit the leader entries for the Archos, and the civ entry for the Doviello.

Really, as long as maps are small and the terrain easy to traverse, exploration/expansion/contact is going to be easy, even if it means having to spam hunters to tame the bearzillas and other absurdities. A better way to restrict exploration and expansion, IMO, is to make the terrain much more difficult.

Few ideas:
- Jungle/deep forest (essentially temperate jungle) is only passable by scouts and workers.
- Military units can pass through regular forest and hills (and maybe rivers) only if roads are present (obvious exceptions would be elves in forests and dwarves in hills); if roads aren't present, have it consume an extra turn.
- Lowered movement speed for units. 1 for all standard units, 2 for cavalry. Make movement boosts harder to acquire.
- Larger maps. Maybe even tweak the generation routines to one-up the standard map sizes (Small becomes Medium, Medium -> Large, Large -> Huge, etc).
- More lairs and other interesting things that attract the attention of the player. Most lairs just give random results with no interaction; make them more like events, with multiple options and the potential to trigger other events later on.


The problem with disabling animals (or barbarians or demons) is that it leaves you in a feast-or-famine situation. Most people apparently agree that animals (and by extension, units that can tame animals) are too strong... but by disabling animals entirely, you make wilderness exploration trivial and impact the usefulness of the recon line. There needs to be a happy medium between those extremes.

I agree with your last about there being a happy medium in this. However, I personally don't find the animals too strong at all. If you are having problems, capture a few lesser animals like Lizards and feed them to the stronger ones to knock down their strength so you can capture THEM. I just did that in capturing a strong Raptor Pack.

The key is that the human player can adapt to the game and easily develop strategies like this one, while the AI is clueless. Yes, it is a bit of an exploit that way.

One thing that amazes me about this modmod, and the early game in particular, is the variety you get. For example, I have played, or at least started, over a dozen game. In my current game I have many Boars attacking my Workers, Fort Guards, etc. I had never seen a single Boar until this game.

I'm curious as to what determines the animal 'set' you get for your game. I've had games loaded with Lizards, some with many Bunyips (land map), and a few with tons of Hamsters. Is it purely random, or does it depend mostly on type of map, terrain, etc.

I'm curious as to what determines the animal 'set' you get for your game. I've had games loaded with Lizards, some with many Bunyips (land map), and a few with tons of Hamsters. Is it purely random, or does it depend mostly on type of map, terrain, etc.


As soon as I figure it out I'll let you know. ;)

The current version I'm working with is MUCH different than the release version, so folks worried about balance...will have an entirely different set of concerns when we release the next patch. :lol:

except the thing, that animals are raping other non-barbarian units it's quite fine . :D :P

/me wishes you happy new year 2010

I think it's more like a hundred or two, mostly children, almost none of them being armed in any way.


Sorry, what? Mosquitos kill around 1 million to 3 million people each and every year.

If you want a bigger animal, the number of people killed each year by deer is around 2 hundred.

So, it counts in millions, in thousands if you count bigger animals only.

Man, DEER kill hundreds of people, so I am ok with bear packs killing hunters and pikemen.

To be fair, Deer only kill millions of people because they went with the whole "Suicidal Attack of Doom" thing. :lol: I've almost hit deer several times... Live in the southern US, so White-Tailed are pretty common.

To be fair, Deer only kill millions of people because they went with the whole "Suicidal Attack of Doom" thing. :lol: I've almost hit deer several times... Live in the southern US, so White-Tailed are pretty common.


I can make Stags explode after combat to preserve that theme...

Oh god. Please don't. :lol:

To be fair, Deer only kill millions of people because they went with the whole "Suicidal Attack of Doom" thing. :lol: I've almost hit deer several times... Live in the southern US, so White-Tailed are pretty common.

Yeah you shouldn't pet wild animals :). Their hooves are sharp and easily break through a skull or a chest.

And I was saying that to support your idea that while even in real life world animals kill so many people, they should be a real threat in a "magical" fantasy world.

Yeah you shouldn't pet wild animals :). Their hooves are sharp and easily break through a skull or a chest.

And I was saying that to support your idea that while even in real life world animals kill so many people, they should be a real threat in a "magical" fantasy world.

Yeah, I realize that. ;)

Honestly, one of the most dangerous wild animals (larger than an insect) would have to be the Boar. Those things are dangerous as hell... And are spreading in the US, because some dumb hick decided to import Russian Boars so he could hunt them, and they are now breeding (and having their traits come out on top) with the regular wild pigs found all over the continent.

In a fantasy world, there are more dangerous animals of course. Things like Drakes, Wyrms, Treeants, so on. Boars are still one of the more difficult to deal with, given things like March and Cannibalize. :p