This module is included in Wildmana by Default (version 6.4). Since it uses Python it is not fully modular yet and can't be removed easily.

Goals:
Increase the Flavor of the Beastmen

Civtrait: Feral

Doviello gain Promotions from Defeating Animals

wolf, wolfpack: combat I, woodsman I, Mark of the Wolf
bear:combat I, woodsman I, Mark of the Bear
Polarbear:combat I, woodsman I, Mark of the PolarBear
Lion, Lion pride:combat I+II, Mark of the Lion
Tiger: combat I, woodsman I, Mark of the Tiger
Griffon: combat I, Flying, Mark of the Griffon
Giant Spider: Woodsman I+II, Mark of the Spider
Gorilla: Woodsman I, Ability to Taunt, Mark of the Gorilla
Elephant: Combat I, Heroic Defense, Mark of the Elephant
Mammoth: Combat I, Heroic Defense, Mark of the Mammoth
Scorpion, Lizard, Hyena: bone Weapons, Combat I, Nomad
Stag: Woodsman I+II
Allosaur: Strong, Heroic Attack
Drakes: Spell of the defeated Drake


Doviello can pick up the weapons of their defeated enemies
Doviello can duel each other (requires atleast lvl 5, challenged unit must have a similar level) Winner gains lots of experience, loser dies
A bloodied battle can turn Doviello lead by Baron Duin Halfmorn to Werewolfs


Leaders:

Charadon (Aggressive, Charismatic, Barbarian)
Mahala (unchanged)
Baron Duin Halfmorn (aggressive, emergent)
Thudr (Spiritual, Arcane, Emergent)
Sirvagha (Agressive, Barbarian, emergent)
Emma Vargamor (Agnostic, Opportunistic, emergent)


Unique Buildings:

Shrine of the warrior(replaces pagan temple): increases chance to gain a Promotion from an Animal


Unique Units:


Doviello Worker: cheaper to build, can construct Doviello Camp (same as Camp but with no Tech prereq)
other Doviello UU same as base FFH


Tweaks:
Lucian can be upgraded Lucian Cold Iron

thanks to Avahz Darkwood, Rystic, Ahwaric , Opera, Valkrionn for ideas/code

cool stuff. :D what does Bone Weapons do?

btw, as I was checking out the civilopedia I noticed Animal in Rage states it gives:

-1 defense strength
-1 defense strength

not sure what's wrong.

edit: I don't see Lion Pride in the Spoiler tag above, I assume they also give Mark of the Lion :D

+1 Attack

weird, I just gave Animal in Rage to a Stag in WB and indeed he went from 4 str to 4 atk 3 dfs.

I also had a stag with Weak that was 3 str, took away Weak and he's 4 str, although Weak is supposed to give -1 str AND -1 dfs str.

Awesome just noted you added Lucian Cold Iron! I will remove him from my version (the wild mana compatible one) so that they do not cause any issues...

it might be nice to allow Lucian and all Doviello Melee UUs to get Subdue Animals/Beasts so they can capture them AND get the promos, seeing as much of their strength lies in the metal line.

Ah! I see you DID use something similar to my duel mechanic... Will have to look at your python for it. ;)

edit: already answered

Are you done with the doviello yet?

I think under the rule of Duin they are way to powerful;

Reason:

any unit have a chance to become a werewolf, wich is a greate idea,
starting with str 5 to 8 than 11 that in a very early state of the game, lets say turn 150 is a little bit to much
ex: at turn 85 i got 5 bloods 3 greater and round about 15 ravenous running around
if i have known that i can create a so powerful army i would have taken the moneyline for teching.
I have stomped 3 civs in roundabout 15 turns, was funny, but way to easy.
lower the chance of becoming a werewolf would be my suggestion, or make it lvl depending i thing lvl 7+ would be a good deal.
and dont forget the cool upgrades from animal killing ;) my best wolf was a str 14 lucian





Dont miss understand me, it was really fun to play them once again
but under duin ;-) way to easy if someone would overrun me with a group of blooded werewolfs i would quit the game and go crying ^^

P.S. i love the upgradet lucian, very cool thing and str8 is ok (except you are lucky and have the pool of tears nearby than you can rock your enemys)

Best regards.

I had limited the effect to tier3 units for exactly the same reason you mentioned. Will check it

wow fast responce :)

maybe except lucian to become a wolf at all (if possible)
Cant remember if lucian was my first wolf.
Played 6.4 (yesterday)


greets.

And btw god damed bloody hell of a mod :) very nice done, keep up the good work

something that would greatly help them is giving them improved yields in tundra and ice, both for flavour and gameplay. they tend to spawn in cold regions with bad terrain, which puts them at a disadvantage right when they're supposed to be strongest. and starting in tundra is a HUGE handicap anyway. +1F for tundra and +1H for ice would be nice, but probably would make tundra too good so +1H for both would be good enough ( or maybe +1H for tundra and +1F in ice so they can somehow survive in icy regions )

this is already in flavourmod btw so you could just decide to merge that. just wanted to mention that without reasonable yields from their starting surroundings they don't stand much of a figthing chance,

I disagree... Sure, I gave them a boost for Snow, but tundra I did not, not directly. What I gave them was a new improvement, open to everyone but with some extra food for the Doviello. Essentially a camp, but with the added benefit of being able to spread Deer, Fur, and Bison resources... Only available in Tundra and Snow.

I think it's a better solution than simply giving them extra yield... Should work with just the camp as well, which they already get access to from the beginning. ;)

Fun times, playing my first Monarch game in a while and Baron Duin is 3rd strongest and on the opposite side of the donut from me. Sounds like I will have an exciting end game battle for sure :crazyeye:

I disagree... Sure, I gave them a boost for Snow, but tundra I did not, not directly. What I gave them was a new improvement, open to everyone but with some extra food for the Doviello. Essentially a camp, but with the added benefit of being able to spread Deer, Fur, and Bison resources... Only available in Tundra and Snow.

I think it's a better solution than simply giving them extra yield... Should work with just the camp as well, which they already get access to from the beginning. ;)

why would you give them a bonus for ice and not tundra when they clearly prefer tundra? :p

I agree that improved yields are generally not a very creative way to improve a civ, but when they often start in a crappy terrain you gotta make sure that they don't always get a slow start because of that ;)

Gekko;8649183']why would you give them a bonus for ice and not tundra when they clearly prefer tundra? :p

I agree that improved yields are generally not a very creative way to improve a civ, but when they often start in a crappy terrain you gotta make sure that they don't always get a slow start because of that ;)

The crappy starts are why I gave them a small boost for Ice. Tundra gives 1:food: 1:hammers:... Ice gives them 1:food:. Not good, but enough for them to farm it.

The Yaranga gives 1 :hammers:, 1 :food: (+1 :food: with Animal Handling), and +1 :food: if Doviello.

I think it works nicely. Of course, not everyone has to agree. :lol:

well since tundra gives 1F by default you definitely gave them a bonus hammer from tundra ;)

Gekko;8649572']well since tundra gives 1F by default you definitely gave them a bonus hammer from tundra ;)

Tundra in RifE and (I believe) FF got a hammer for everyone. Not sure when or why anymore. :p

I had limited the effect to tier3 units for exactly the same reason you mentioned. Will check it

My first werewolf with Duin in current game came from a hunter that had 100XP already, so yeah, uberunit really fast. Who needs heroes when you got that?

some update, i got an not so easy to reproduce bug/dupe, my Lucian doubled himself.

I attacked an uhm.. deer? forgot the name, after the win i createt an werewolf BUT it was a second lucian werewolf with the same number of XP and promotions the attached general was also duped, only the equipment was not.
I also got that with an Grater wolf.

Also i reconise that my grater wolf sometimes degradet to bloody wolfs after a win.


I will try that again, maybe i can find out what did this.

Greetings.

Gekko;8648692']something that would greatly help them is giving them improved yields in tundra and ice, both for flavour and gameplay. they tend to spawn in cold regions with bad terrain, which puts them at a disadvantage right when they're supposed to be strongest. and starting in tundra is a HUGE handicap anyway. +1F for tundra and +1H for ice would be nice, but probably would make tundra too good so +1H for both would be good enough ( or maybe +1H for tundra and +1F in ice so they can somehow survive in icy regions )

It's a tough balance because +1F on tundra is too strong (they shouldn't treat tundra like grassland), but +1H doesn't solve the problem of them being perpetually food-poor. I like Valkrionn's concept of +F to resources, but I don't see why you need to introduce a whole new resource. Why not just give them a +1F, or even +2F, to the tundra resources (Deer/Fur)? That would make those unusable clusters of tundra Fur I always see near Doviello start positions into an actual worthwhile city site.

It's a tough balance because +1F on tundra is too strong (they shouldn't treat tundra like grassland), but +1H doesn't solve the problem of them being perpetually food-poor. I like Valkrionn's concept of +F to resources, but I don't see why you need to introduce a whole new resource. Why not just give them a +1F, or even +2F, to the tundra resources (Deer/Fur)? That would make those unusable clusters of tundra Fur I always see near Doviello start positions into an actual worthwhile city site.

Resource? I didn't. I mean, sure, I DID add a new northern food resource (bison), but the Doviello don't get anything special from it.

What I did was make a new improvement, buildable in Tundra/Ice and does not remove forests. It can spread Bison, Deer, and Fur, gives a bit of food and some hammers. This is open to everyone.

Then I gave the Doviello +1:food: on this improvement. Lets them get some food out of tundra if they work at it, and lets them go FoL (most thematic religion for them is a variant of FoL) without handicapping them.

I'm in the middle of a game with the Doviello, and I killed a few beasts with Brigit but she doesn't seem to get "animal promotions". I killed maybe 5 sabertooth and two bears.

Bad luck, bug, feature ?

I'm in the middle of a game with the Doviello, and I killed a few beasts with Brigit but she doesn't seem to get "animal promotions". I killed maybe 5 sabertooth and two bears.

Bad luck, bug, feature ?

I can't remember off hand, but I suspect that only live Doviello units can gain the promos. As Brigit is an Angel, she isn't alive, so that would be why.

I'm sure someone else can verify that.

yes, only living doviello units

Does the getting spells from drakes thing work? I've killed a lot of drakes, and still no spells. Bad luck?

Suggestion: Give the Doviello +1 hammer from tundra.

This makes tundra at least equal to plains for the Doviello civilization. In theory, they can irrigate more land and make up some of the lost hammers from their civilization bonus.

Suggestion: Make the Doviello Camp improvement provide +1 food from resource tiles.

I was reminded the other day of a problem I noticed with the early game Doviello. Once you research bronze working, you can only build Sons of Asena. The problem here is that you don't always have the hammers to plunge straight into full production on second tier units. Even if your capital does, other cities probably won't in the early game. This creates several problems including the loss of cheap fodder units, enemy civs being able to out produce in military units, and an inability to quickly build troops on the frontier.
Given these issues, is there any reason for blocking beastmen?

I think it is game mechanics. Can't remember any special block for beastmen.

Something that may help you here Fafnir13: Get to the Undercouncel fast and vote for slave trade - buy an army of slaves and upgrade them as needed. Adopt slavery civic asap for this same reason. I have used captured workers during conquests and upgraded on the fly so that I wouldn't run out of forces. Dont let your gold ever drop below 200 so that you can have it when an event or upgrade need arises...

I think it is game mechanics. Can't remember any special block for beastmen.

I think it's because they are labled as obsolete or some such. Much like the Moroi used to be. Hmm...on that subject...

*Dig Dig Dig*

Aha! Found it (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=303233&highlight=Moroi+obsolete). Old thread I posted about the Doviello on the main mod. It got side-tracked by the Moroi issue, bu it does contain Kael's opinion on the Doviello matter:

This is a balance issue. If you could still build warriors players with enough gold would never build anything but, and then upgrade them (rather than spend the additional hammers on actual sons or battlemasters). So its a bit of a limit on an already awesome mechanic.


To which Zechnophobe replied:

I think you think this mechanic is more awesome than it is, at least in strength terms. You say "With enough gold" but that is a balancing factor like anything else. "with enough gold" you could build nothing but disciples, and upgrade them to priests. The whole point is to give the Doviello something unique to do, to make them more effective at producing high level troops. By Taking this away as they progress, it really negaitvely effects the play experience... the further you get into the game, the less fun they are to play.

@Sephi: I don't know where your opinion lies on the matter. I've really liked the direction you've taken with most things in WM, so maybe I'll get lucky with this one as well.

As for how to unblock them, I thinks it's just the regular blocking that occurs when a unit is made obsolete. Some more digging on the forums pulled up the tag "<bNeverObsolete>1" that supposedly makes it so a particular unit will never go obsolete.
Were I a modder I'd test it out, but I'm not so knowledgeable on such things.

I definitely am on Kael's side here - it's cheap as chips to upgrade beastmen to Sons of Asena. It only costs, what? 40 gold?

The whole thing is the trade off between hammers for production and gold for upgrading. It should always cost more in total (including original build price) to upgrade a unit rather than build it fresh. I'd have thought that was kind of self evident really - the advantage of upgrading is you keep xp and promos, and also it is immediate rather than having to wait for it to be built.

I think that's nonsense. everything should be set to neverobsolete. player should be able to choose whatever he wants to build provided he has the needed techs/buildings/resources/whatever.

Gekko;8743328']I think that's nonsense. everything should be set to neverobsolete. player should be able to choose whatever he wants to build provided he has the needed techs/buildings/resources/whatever.

My point, which I think you missed, is that it should never be cheaper to build a unit and then upgrade it, rather than to build the upgrade straight off.

So, sure, make nothing ever go obsolete (and clutter up the building options as much as possible...:mischief:), but then also change upgrading costs and build costs so as to fit the above sentence! :p

how is it cheaper? you still need the gold, so it all comes down to if you have lots of production or lots of gold. they don't really seem equatable, and provide the user with some added choice. although I do agree that some upgrade costs could use a tweak.

the cluttering of the building options is an issue as well, yeah. I'm pretty sure Grey Fox created a system that fixes that which is now in RifE... maybe some caring soul will port that over. we should blackmail Valk or something :lol:

Gekko;8743411']how is it cheaper?
there is a trait that halves upgrade prices :p

Gekko;8743411']how is it cheaper? you still need the gold, so it all comes down to if you have lots of production or lots of gold. they don't really seem equatable, and provide the user with some added choice. although I do agree that some upgrade costs could use a tweak.

the cluttering of the building options is an issue as well, yeah. I'm pretty sure Grey Fox created a system that fixes that which is now in RifE... maybe some caring soul will port that over. we should blackmail Valk or something :lol:

That's actually one block of code in the DLL, and a small bit of art. ;)

It's all in the LaunchProductionPopup code.

there is a trait that halves upgrade prices :p

yep and only Mahala has it. Ingenuity does exactly what it is supposed to do, how is that an issue? should we also nerf dwarves cuz they have ingenuity? :confused:

if ingenuity is an issue for the doviello, then take it away from her and give her something else... but upgrading stuff from warriors when you have ingenuity just means you're using your trait wisely, I don't see how that can be considered a balance issue. besides, ingenuity is what makes mahala so much fun to play compared to poor charadon, and I really don't think anyone considers her overpowered :lol:

My point, which I think you missed, is that it should never be cheaper to build a unit and then upgrade it, rather than to build the upgrade straight off.


But it is. For everyone, not just the Doviello.
Given a bit of testing, hammers from hurrying production seem to come at a cost of 3 :gold: per 1 :hammers:. Trying to build something before it has had a chance to accrue at least one turns worth of hammer incurs a 50% increase to the multiplier, or 4.5 :gold: per 1 :hammers:. I'm going to ignore that 50% increase in the next bit for clarity. If you want, imagine a city with 1 production at take off 3 :gold: from the total.

Warrior: 25 :hammers:, 75 :gold:
Axeman: 60 :hammers:, 180 :gold:
Champion: 120 :hammers:, 360 :gold:

Then, there's the upgrade cost. I don't know what fancy formula it uses, but the values are:

Warrior----->Axeman 75 :gold:
Warrior----->Champion 195 :gold:
Axeman----->Champion 125 :gold:

The Doviello are mostly the same when it comes to the production costs with the slight difference of the battlemaster.

Beastman: 25 :hammers:, 75 :gold:
Sons of Asena: 60 :hammers:, 180 :gold:
Battlemaster: 150H :hammers:, 450 :gold:

Why the battlemaster is more expensive then a champion is beyond me. Champions get a +25% vs melee. Battlemasters get a +50% on tundra. That's the only difference I can see. While its a larger bonus, it is far more situational and doesn't seem worth a 25% increase to :hammers: cost.
Anyways, Doviello upgrades are where the big differences hit.

worker----->Beastman 20 :gold:
Beastman----->Sons of Asena 40 :gold:
Sons of Asena----->Battlemaster 80 :gold:

So beastmen roughly get a 50% (46.6%) decrease (40 :gold: vs 75 :gold:) to their upgrade cost. Sons of Asena get a a 36% reduction (80 :gold: vs 125 :gold:), but that's not considering the extra :hammers: a Battlemaster costs. When that's taken into account, you get roughly back into the 50% (55.5%) range.
Essentially, the Doviello upgrade scheme is like having ingenuity for free.

So, if its a balance concern, why are we not concerned about the ingenuity trait? Unlike the Doviello, any other civilization can continue to build their warrior units after bronze working. If they have the ingenuity trait, they can upgrade these units for less then the Doviello.

Warrior----->Axeman 38 gold
Warrior----->Champion 98 gold
Axeman----->Champion 63 gold

So, if the ingenuity trait isn't a balance issue, then Doviello being able to build beastmen throughout the game shouldn't be one either. Sons of Asena don't obsolete, so why beastmen?

The only time the Doviello upgrade system becomes truly evil is when they have the ingenuity trait. 20 :gold: for warrior to become a son? Yes please!
However, is it really any more evil then any of the other nasty combinations in the game?
It might be, actually. Maybe drop the base reduction the Doviello get from around 50% to around 30%. Thoughts?

I feel that the battlemasters need a tweak. melee line is supposed to be their main strength, and yet their champion UU is worse than regular champions since tundra bonus is hardly useful while bonus vs melee is huge! to add insult to injury, they are also more expensive than champions. what the...?

to make things interesting, I suggest that battlemasters be cheaper to build than regular champions, which should play very well with the doviello strength of immediately turning newly conquered cities to unit factories without need for buildings first. how does 100H instead of champions' 120 sound?

I don't know if there is any interest in adding to the Doviello civilization (or if it is needed at all) but I recently had an idea for a Doviello UU that I figured I may as well share.

Instead of a Beastmaster the Doviello could get a Packmaster. The Packmaster would be identical to a BM for stats but would have 2 special abilities. The first is the ability to summon a permanent summon, a wolf, the second is the ability to cast a version of the Might spell (+40% combat strength -- called Feral Might perhaps) that only effects beasts.

The idea is that this special unit would give the Doviello the ability to call up more wolves from the wilderness in the late game; long after they've used their worldspell. By the time the Doviello have Animal Mastery, a steady trickle of un-upgraded wolf packs (undoubtedly 2x packmasters would stack up and summon/create these as needed) would hardly be overpowered.

The graphic for such a unit could be one human figure (the Doviello battlemaster) accompanied by 3 wolves.

It seems like an obvious idea in hindsight but I figured I should throw it out there anyhow.

As with every modmod the first thing I doing is playing the Doviello to see how fast I can win a Standard Size Standard Speed Pangea Immortal game with Charadon Lucian rush. I like a lot what you have done. As the AI now levels their units correctly killing your first civ isn't anymore a walk in the park like it was when I tried it in base FFH some time ago and in most other modmods. Instead of 3-4 civs being killed till turn 100 I only managed to kill two until then and I had to consider every step that I did with my army very well as the AI sees weaknesses it didn't see before. Also the upgrade idea for Lucian is quite cool though for me it is very situational. I would never have upgraded him if Pool of Tears had not been near one of the cities I razed. Though finding pool of tears made the game a lot of easier from then on and I won after turn 180 by Conquest victory.
What I love is your change for wolf packs spawning a wolf after every combat won and to increase the strength of wolf packs by 1. This way Doviello world spell finally is very useful beyond having some suicide units that soften up the defenses of the first city you attack.
The animal promotions are also cool though I have only explored them marginally as I was too busy razing the cities of my enemies... But if I hadn't played an early Charadon Lucian rush I could imagine that those can be used as a key conquest mechanic too.

Emma Vargamor: Why does Emma Vargamor have Agnostic as a trait? Is it to offset Opportunistic? Is Oppor powerful enough to warrant this?

Opportunistic could be +x diplo bonus with the three highest ranked civs. Another possibility is to let him switch his alignment every 100 turns to accomodate at the powers that currently sit on top. Should be quite useful as the boni/mali for alignment are more extreme than in base FFH.

how do you guys get good use out of the dueling ability? it seems to me almost always I'd rather keep both my high level units instead of sacrificing one to get some more XP on the other. am I missing something here?

no this ability is a bit wonky, how does it work with immortal units though? if they survive this would make immortals a bit powerful.

I would prefer the loser not dying but rather getting a negative promotion ("Defeated" or something) that gives -20% (or even more) strength.

Gekko;9338955']how do you guys get good use out of the dueling ability? it seems to me almost always I'd rather keep both my high level units instead of sacrificing one to get some more XP on the other. am I missing something here?

Seeing as that ability was coded by myself, I'll give some input.

Typically, I duel my weak units against the strong ones, make them stronger. Seeing as it is based off of actual combat odds, it is fairly safe.

However, you are unable to do that in Wild Mana. While the guts of the code are exactly as I wrote it, Sephi trimmed it to one spell... Making one of the two units in the system completely random. In RifE, there are two spells: Issue Challenge and Accept Challenge. You are able to choose exactly what units duel.

well that's not really an issue since I can just have 2 units in the tile when I want to cast the spell. the issue seems to be that BOTH units have to be lvl4, and I'd rather keep both my level 4 units alive instead of sacrificing one to get some xp on the other.

Gekko;9340174']well that's not really an issue since I can just have 2 units in the tile when I want to cast the spell. the issue seems to be that BOTH units have to be lvl4, and I'd rather keep both my level 4 units alive instead of sacrificing one to get some xp on the other.

Like I said, that is pretty much the only way Sephi changed it. Seems to have removed much of it's use as a result, honestly.

you mean only issue challenge is supposed to have a lvl4 requirement? that would make a lot more sense indeed :)

well if there would be no requirement to accept challenge this would only be a microintensive xp-feeding mechanic :(
build unit accept challenge rinse and repeat until you an army even the calabim would be proud of.

i would change system whereas the looser would still live (although heavily damaged) and instead of expierence it would give the city a culture and trade boost (since the doviello are all about small but numerous cities, also this would be quite handy with city states civic).

honestly i don't know though the current system is not rewarding enough and making into a system like described above it would be too strong and micro intensive.

indeed that seems like a pita. maybe we could instead have an ability similar to the Malakim Ascetism, with units being busy for X turns and when it ends they both have more XP but get damaged. useful, not much microintensive and no units dying. also give it a min level prereq so you don't have to do it with all units, just the experienced ones. another prereq qould be that both units gotta be full health. turn time should be low so that it doesn't take away too much time from actual warfare which the Doviello are intended for, 2 turns at normal speed should be fine imho, 1 at quick and 3 and 4 at epic/marathon respectively. the upcoming cut in number of units in the endgame should also prevent having to use it too many times.

Honestly, in RifE it just plays into the other mechanics. I've never felt a need to feed unit after unit into my good ones, just one or two; The big thing is to keep high-xp units, as new units gain xp based on the average xp of your other units.

So really, it was designed as a minor mechanic; It just has more use in RifE. And no, neither unit needs to be level 4; You can duel with your starting units if you want.

problem there is that WM Doviello are very different so we gotta come up with something different to fit in ;)

Yep. That's why my last post pointed out that it depends on their other mechanics in RifE. Taken on it's own, it will not be much of a mechanic.

thought I'd mention this where it belongs: Doviello camps were nice when camps were at Hunting, but now with Exploration as a prereq for camps they are nothing special anymore. I propose to have doviello camps give +1 food compared to normal camps.

Gekko;9344838']I propose to have doviello camps give +1 food compared to normal camps.

No. Dov. camps should give Dov. units x2 xps if the Dov. unit visits 9 different camps.

This mindless micromanagement will drive the player into a killing frenzy, which fits the civ.

Tundra in RifE and (I believe) FF got a hammer for everyone. Not sure when or why anymore. :p

Tundra never got 1 :hammers: in FF, and I don't recall it ever having it in RifE (it currently does not). Illians in RifE get +1 :hammers: on Tundra, but the Doviello do not.

I tested out the Doviello getting +1 :hammers: on Tundra awhile back, and I think it's the right direction. They would have plenty of production for units, but they would seek out food resources to grow their cities - which I think is fitting (and I wouldn't mind them getting a + :food: bonus on camps).

I think duels should have a chance to kill the loser, even if a watered-down mechanic is ultimately chosen.