Dive into Ancient Lore
Dive into Ancient Lore, also known as DIAL, is a modmod for Rise from Erebus. This mod is specifically designed to pull up the ancient legends and lore from Erebus and add them to the already numerous features in RifE.

What does it bring?
DIAL adds a few new features to the mix:

An updated form of Goodreau, the Grigori Minor Leader, adding in the new Meritocrat Trait.
Great Heroes, World Units that are buildable the same way normal heroes are, but have no specfic religion or civilization pre-requisite. Some of these heroes are only created via events in the same way that Gaelan is created.
Legendary Resolutions, which add lore appropriate resolutions to the Under- and Over-councils that expand on their abilities.


Timetable

This is a very tentative time table that I have set out for myself, to give you a general idea of when I am going to try to release the components of the mod by. These dates are by no means final- if something requires more balancing or I need to change something, I'll change it and push the timetable back to fix it. I wont release something until the first part is balanced.


November 30th: Preliminary Draft of Goodreau submitted to Valk for approval.
December 15th: Hero Pack 1 released, Final Copy of Goodreau submitted to Valk for approval.
January 10th, 2010: Balance of Hero Pack 1 complete, Hero Pack 2 released, Overcouncil Resolutions released.
January 31st: Balance Hero Pack 2 Complete, Balance Overcouncil Resolutions complete, Hero Pack 3 released.
February 24th: Balance of Hero Pack 3 complete, Undercouncil Resolutions released
March 10th: Balance of Undercouncil Resolutions complete.


Credits

The entire RifE team, for making such an awesome mod.
Magister, whos posts have given key insight to the workings of the mod.
The various writers of lore for the mod, for giving me inspiration for the heroes that I'll include within the mod.

thomas.berubeg: Vara (Hero Pack 1)
KillerClowns: Korven (Hero Pack 1), Elena (Hero Pack 1), The First (Hero Pack 1)
thewyrm: Elise (Hero Pack 1)
Nikis-Knight: Shanar (Hero Pack 1)
Thonnas: Nurnan Delhaye (Hero Pack 1)

Goodreau
Goodreau has been a sort of pet project of mine since Notque's Minor Leaders mod, and I've tried to carry him on through the incarnations of FF and FF+. I'm not sure of how I'm going to deal with the new Alignment Axis, but it shouldn't be that hard to get him out on time. Once I've gotten a handle on exactly what Valk and the rest of the RifE team are planning on doing with the way BA and the new axis is handled, I'll post the exact specifications to Goodreau's traits and abilities.

Pedia Entry


Despite the road from Junon to Midgar being the oldest in the Grigori republic, Goodreau still jumped as the coach bumped and bucked from the cobblestone path. He had ridden along it hundreds, if not thousands of times as he traveled between the cities, Midgar a place of legislature, of law, of reason, and Junon a place of commerce and trade. Between these two cities, the man had a tight grip on the running of the empire. Where Cassiel was content to stay in his terrace and philosophize, Goodreau was where he worked best- amongst the people, where he could see everything from the perspective of a citizen rather than a revered philosopher. Perhaps that was why Cassiel had left the whole business of market regulation and economics to him.
Or perhaps it was because that he was the most driven to simply do more. Where others saw taxation as a representation of interference, Goodreau saw it as an opening to expand and improve. Where before, the Grigori stayed apart from the adventurers, afraid of their exaggerated strength and skill, Goodreau saw the opportunity to create idols for the people, paragons of Cassiel’s philosophy. Where before, only the few most successful members of the society had access to the benefits of Grigori Medics, Goodreau saw an opportunity to raise the standard of living and made apprenticeship amongst the Ordo Medicos a state-sponsored program. Where before, the Grigori cities were small and distrustful, their agnosticism as fiery as the passion of a Confessor, Goodreau joined with Cassiel to open the city gates to anyone- religious or not, and let them realize that one’s faith is not needed to succeed.
“But perhaps you see why that’s the case, Sir. Help fund the temples to the One.” The Luonnotar had joined him on his journey as to not waste precious time. “Strength comes from unity, and unity can come through faith.”
“You seem to misunderstand, my brother.” Goodreau shuffled through some of the papers, flipping through the large portfolio. “The Grigori are united through their freedom. They have the freedom to chose whether or not they seek the aid of a god to do their work or whether they chose to accomplish something based on their own merit. We’re no theocracy. We’re a meritocracy.”
The other man shook his head, sighing heavily as he folded his hands. “Every man, Grigori or not, owes his existence to the One. And when the One returns, Erebus will be set in equality.” He looked into Goodreau’s eyes, his own pleading softly. “If you were to fund the temples as you had funded the Adventurers, it would prove that we were moving closer to the return.”
Goodreau gazed out of the carriage’s window, mixing together a reply so as to not damage the man's hopes. Out the window, the dark forest already filled with the ever familiar mists that permeated the swamp. But the grey haze combined with the man’s words sent a cold shiver down his spine and a familiar whisper in his ear.
“Don’t worry, father. Everything will be fine in the end.”
As he turned towards the Luonnotar, Goodreau smiled, shuffling through the papers. “We have no more room in the official budget. However, I am a merchant, and I see an opportunity here. I’ll give you a chance to spread your faith amongst the people as I have let all religions do so, and you will have a stipend to construct a temple in Midgar. But hear me well- we are no theocracy. Everyone has the right to chose. No choice should ever be made for them, whether it be man or woman, son or daughter.”



For Goodreau's information.

Civilization
The Grigori

Traits:
Emergent/Meritocrat (Emergent/Merit)
MERITOCRAT: Increases the Spawn rate by 1.4 for Adventurers.

Religious Weights
Not needed, as he is a Grigori.

Personality
Goodreau is a builder, with a focus on finances. He will focus on building commerce buildings (like the market) or buildings that give specialist slots (Like the Museum). He is an honorable fellow and will not declare at pleased. However, he will be tough to buy into going to war, and in diplomacy will always try for a fair deal. A fair deal being one in his favor, but also helpful to his friend.

Favored Civic
Liberty

Hated Civic
Slavery
Creator's Note: Why does he sound like Erebus's Abraham Lincoln?

Favored Wonder
Bazaar of Mammon, but that's a National Wonder, so any "Commerce" wonder will be just fine.

Attitude
+2 Base Attitude.

Diplomusic
I personally have it set to Winners (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn0RSAc9MF8) by the group, Nuttin but Stringz, which has done some pretty amazing work with the violin. However, I'm not sure whether this is copyrighted or not, or perhaps a bit out of theme for the mod. I would suggest The Merchant Theme (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRxOhkVSJv8) from the game "Secret of Evermore", as that would fit more in theme with the mod.

Diplotext
Being Written.

Defeat Quote
"We are remembered by our successes and failures. I may be remembered by my failure here, but you too will be remembered for your failure in due time."


Meritocrat
The way that the Meritocrat Trait functions is by multiplying the Adventurer total by 1.4, giving you more adventurers later on in the game as you have a larger empire.

Goodreau also has a UB Museum replacement- same cost, same effects, but provides +1 G. Prophet points. This is to show Goodreau's ties with the Luonnotar.

The Heroes
Every civilization has access to a number of heroes, from Civilization Specific, to Religion Specific, to Random Chance type heroes. This portion of the mod is designed to create a number of heroes that are avaliable to a wide variety of civs. In most cases, these heroes are avaliable to everyone, but depending on the lore, some civs may not have access to certain heroes. For example, lets look at one of the heroes from Hero Pack 1, Elena the Seraphim.

Being a Mercurian, Elena will be naturally biased towards the Mercurian Civilzation- The Mercurians receive a +10% bonus when constructing her. However, she is unbuildable by any Evil Civilization, and the Grigori. Elena is your standard Seraphim with a few perks. While she does recieve the Hero Promotion, she also starts with the Enchanted Weapon promotion, Demon Slaying Promotion, and Drill 1 and 2. She also gives the owning player a +1 Relations boost with the Mercurians. To the Mercurians, she's simply another, albiet stronger Seraphim, but to other civs, she is a valuable asset.

In order to construct Elena, there are two prerequirements: Compact Enforced must not be selected, and the building player must have access to the Righteousness tech.

Ressurection and DIAL Heroes

As of the first release, I dont plan on having a way to revive these heroes- by Hero Pack 2, I will try to get some sort of way for the Ressurection spell to revive these heroes as well as your normal heroes.

Hero Pack 1
Note: These are only a PORTION of the heroes that will be released with Hero Pack 1. I'm keeping some hidden away till I've got them fully balanced or until I release, depending on the hero in question.



REMEMBER: All units start with the promotions that a unit of that type normally would, as well as the Hero Promotion.

Elena

Base Unit Seraphim
Base Civilization: Mercurians
Promotions: Demon Slaying, Drill 1, Drill 2, Enchanted Weapon
Tech: Righteousness
Cost: 210 :hammers:
May only be built by Good Civilizations.


The First

Base Unit Devout
Base Civilization Infernal
Promotions: Metamagic I, Mind 2, Mobility, Divine, Ashen Veil religion
Tech: Corruption of Spirit
Cost: 190 :hammers:
The First was the very first follower of Agares to walk Erebus, the first to hear the whispers of forgotten lore as he succumbed to the Fallen One. For him, his mission is to seek the truth, to offer others the same hope he had. As such, he has the ability to construct a Temple of The Veil in cities without sacrificing himself.
(Base Story: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7344537&postcount=94)


Korven
Base Unit Adept (+1 Defensive Strength)
Base Civilization Amurites
Promotions Channeling 1, Enervated, Earth 1, Earth 2, Twincast, Spell Extension 1.
Tech: Elementalism
Cost: 500 :hammers:
“You can tell a lot about a mage by their preferred sphere. Take Korven there. Earth adept. Not too bright, but honest. He's hardworking and a bit stubborn. He might not get the spell right the first time, but he'll try again until he can do it on a whim. It takes him twice as long to learn a spell, but when he gets the hang of it he'll do it twice as well. -Adept Morin”
Korven serves as early access to Twincast, but a very powerful defensive unit as well. His hefty cost makes a detraction so that rushing Elementalism for him wont be an issue.

Elise
Base Unit Assassin
Base Civilization Balseraph
Promotions Vampire Hunter (+40% against Vampires), Mobility, Blitz, Combat 1
Tech: Tracking
Cost: 120 :hammers:
Elise is a Calabim Exile that was smuggled out of Prespur in a Balseraph Caravan, having been spared from the feast by the actions of her now dead brother. Having been trained in the arts of assassination, coupled with her hatred of vampires, have led her to be a very potent foe against the Calabim aristocracy.

Vara
Base Unit Crusader (-1 Defensive Strength)
Base Civilization Bannor
Promotions Mobility, Sentry I, Commando, Oathkeeper (+100% against Chaotic Civs)
Tech: Military Strategy
Cost: 90 :hammers:
Vara was an Oathkeeper for the Bannor Armies during their war with the Shieam across the Kuriotate lands. However, she was tasked by Valin to warn of Hyborem’s entrance into Erebus. She has less armor than the Crusader does, but still maintains her status as an Oathkeeper.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7964687&postcount=314

Shanar

Base Unit Swordsman
Base Civilization Lanun
Promotions Slaver (75% Chance to generate a Slave after a successful combat), Amphibious, Hidden Nationality
Tech: Way of the Wicked
Cost: 130 :hammers:
Captain of a crew of slavers, Shanar regularly sells his captives to whomever is willing to pay for his addiction to wine and wench alike.


Nurnan Delhaye

Base Unit Blimp
Base Civilization Kuriotates
Promotions Mobility, Tactics
Tech: Construction/Engineering
Cost: 90 :hammers:
The first man to create a working Airship for the Kuriotates, Lord Delhaye is a great engineer in his own right, floating across the empires and using the clouds to stay hidden from the creatures hidden in the wilderness.

Legendary Resolutions

Overcouncil

Please keep in mind that these will need balancing- Feel free to comment, suggest new resolutions, ect. This is in no way the final list- there are a couple dozen more resolutions that I have in store that I have yet to submit to my balancing, as well as some of the really specific ones such as the Seige the Council (which forces all respective Council members to declare on the opposite council).



Overcouncil
The Overcouncil will receive the greatest boost to their resolution list. While the Mana-ban resolutions will stay, there is a new set of additional mana regulations that help provide members with benefits. Each resolution will provide the member's capital with a building that grants the mana type in question.


Life Mana
Law Mana
Creation Mana
Spirit Mana


To help balance the Overcouncil against the Undercouncil, the player will also be able to recruit the Radiant Guard in a similar way to the Undercouncil's ability to enlist the Nightwatch. The cost for recruiting the Radiant Guard is 50 gold as opposed to the Undercouncil's cost of 25 gold for enlisting the Nightwatch.

Additionaly, there will be a series of Civic Specific resolutions. By being a member of the Overcouncil, you can propose to vote on one of the available resolutions. The head of the Council can propose certain over-arching ones, such as open borders or single currency, or the mana resolutions, but anyone may propose resolutions.


General Resolutions: These may be proposed by anyone.
Mediator's Council
Type: Building Unlock
Restriction: None

The Mediator's Council is a small location where individuals can settle disputes without going through the traditional red-tape that comes from normal courthouses. The "Mediator" can be either an Overcouncil appointed Mediator, but in many cases it is often a priest of the city's most dominant religion.
Cost: 400 Hammers
Effect: +1 :culture: , Removes Unhappiness Penalty from Undercouncil Sabotage.

Worker Safety
Type: Building Modification
Restrictions: Proposing Party must have Industry Civic.

-10% :hammers: from Forges
+l :health: for Forges.

Co-operative Defensive Engineering
Type: Building Modification
Restrictions: Must have Masonry discovered by proposing party

-15% :hammers: needed for Walls, Palisades

Art for Art’s Sake
Type: Specialist Improvement
Restrictions: Proposing Party must be running Caste System

-1 :food: in all cities
+1 Free Artist in all cities

Institutionalized Research
Type: Specialist Improvement
Restrictions: Proposing Party must be running Scholarship

When everyone focuses towards the same thing, and the sharing of ideas in enforced, then everyone profits from a single man’s learning.
+5% Maitnence in all Cities
+1 :beaker: from Sage Specialists

Call to Arms
Type: Unit Creation
Restrictions: Proposing Party must be running Military State

War is a necessary evil, and to have a war, troops are required.
Provides 3 units as if a Draft has occurred. +1  in all cities for the next 15 turns.

Peaceful Mediation
Type: World Effect
Restrictions: Proposing Party Must be running Pacifism

Sometimes war is not the answer- it is most often a call to end the fighting suffering that gives a chance for growth.
Reduces the AC by 2


Publisher's Bureau
Type: Building Unlock
Restrictions: Proposing Party must have Liberty Civic.

The publisher’s Bureau is an establishment that enables fledgling writers to have their works circulated. These bureaus truly flourish under a civilization that values Free Speech.
Cost: 525 Hammers
Effect: +1 :) if running Liberty, +2 :culture:, +5% :beaker:
Hall of Judgement

Cost: 750 Hammers
Effect: -35% Maitnence Cost, +1 :) if running Social Order, small chance to grant units built in the city Law 1.

Warrior’s Code
Type: Unit Modification
Restrictions: Must be running the Conquest Civic

Offense is the best defense, supposedly. By indoctrinating warriors in what it means to be a warrior, then it makes learning how to fight less foreign of a prospect. Of course, their training takes longer to teach them this extra doctrine of warfare.
All Military Units are given +1 EXP when created.
-5% :hammers: for Military Units.


Guardian’s Code
Type:Unit Modification
Restrictions: Must be running the Conquest Civic

Defense is the best offense, and by indoctrinating warriors in what it means to defend cities, they will often construct walls to defend their cities. However, the idea of defending that which you love will often lead them to live in their homes and be unwilling to move into Barracks.
Free Palisades in all cities. Free walls in all cities above Population 6.
+25% :Hammers: cost for Barracks.


Instate a code of Ethics
Type: Alignment Shift
Restrictions: Requires the proposing party to have the Liberty Civic

Increases the alignment of all OC members by +15 on the Ethical Scale.

Instate a code of Morality
Type: Alignment Shift
Restrictions: Requires the proposing party to have the Liberty Civic

Increases the alignment of all OC members by +15 on the Morality Scale.

This Post Is Reserved for Future Use

Sounds interesting. ;)

The most interesting and the feature I am looking forward to the most are the heroes open to multiple civs. This seems like such an obvious addition to the game. In a game which has both National and World wonders, these new heroes would just be World Wonder equivalent units.

The resolutions (especially Overcouncil ones) need some reworking and I'm glad someone is stepping up to try.

I'm interested to see what you come up with. :)

Elena sounds fun. :D

The councils need more resolutions. I am looking forward to this.

One thing I'd like to say about the councils... Thinking about making the UC votes depend on your population, rather than a straight one-vote-per-civ. ;)

I realize that this will be a long time in creation, but one word Valk, and that word is merge. (At least the Heros, plz?)

Actually, at the very least Goodreau. There were already plans to merge that one. ;)

The rest, I don't know if I will or not. Not because I don't like it (I do), but because that's a big part of this mod... Wouldn't want to kill it off by merging it. ;)

One thing I'd like to say about the councils... Thinking about making the UC votes depend on your population, rather than a straight one-vote-per-civ. ;)

That is a lot less important to me than what it is you are voting on.

Right now the undercouncil has a option or two that are worth voting for over and over. The overcouncil need something similar. Right now after 3ish votes the overcouncil is done and votes are meaningless.

I agree. Just mentioned the population voting as it could be important when he's designing new resolutions. ;)

One thing I'd like to say about the councils... Thinking about making the UC votes depend on your population, rather than a straight one-vote-per-civ. ;)

Personally, I'd rather make it depend on how much you are willing to pay. It could be hard to code, but I'd like to see Undercouncil Resolutions turn from votes into bribes and auctions.


One amusing resolution I like to give both councils is the ability to dissolve the council. You can make the forced adoption of No Membership a resolution, but since once it passed you are no longer part of the council it does not stop you from starting over again. I'm not sure, but I think making everyone leave the council like this may reset all the resolutions.


The lore makes it clear that everyone at the Overcouncil is considered an equal, including vassals and their masters. I tend to think they don't look to fondly at vassalage, or at least capitulation. I'd like to see an Overcouncil resolution to liberate vassals.

Also, it might be more appropriate if there was no head of the Overcouncil, but instead every member had the opportunity to call for votes from time to time.

It could be interesting if the Undercouncil could sell vassals, or maybe force weaker members to become vassals of the strong.


It could be nice if the Overcounil could vote to make its more advanced members share technologies with the rest of the council.

One simple Overcouncil resolution could be voting to recruit Radiant Guards, the way the Undecouncil recruits Nightwatches.

The Overcouncil should be able to share maps. It could be nice if the Undercouncil had resolutions to cause their enemies to loose the maps of their lands.





If you are going to add so many new heroes, I think it would be good to rewrite the Ressurection spell so that it lets you choose which hero to resurrect. You could change it to work though an event, much like Magnidine's Hire Units spell. You could make it track the deaths of each hero instead of just counting if they are alive and have been built, but I think that would probably require adding a very large number of new feats.

That is a lot less important to me than what it is you are voting on.

Right now the undercouncil has a option or two that are worth voting for over and over. The undercouncil need something similar. Right now after 3ish votes the over council is done and votes are meaningless.

That's something I want to change with this mod- By making the councils a lasting influence in game instead of a one shot thing. While each Council will have a recruit/enlist resolution that can be done repeatedly (Radiant Guard for the OC and Nightwatch for the UC, respectively), there will be an incredibly large number of Civic-Specific resolutions that can only be brought forth if the Council Head is running that civic.

For example, if you're running the Liberty Civic as the head of the Overcouncil, you can pass a resolution that unlocks some sort of building that publishes the works of fledgling writers and philosophers, granting a culture and gold boost to cities it is constructed in. Likewise, if you're running Industry, you can pass a resolution that gives forges a +1 :health: bonus in the form of worker safety regulations.

Likewise, The Undercouncil has Civic Specific resolutions as well. For example, the Slave Trade Resolution can only be passed if running Slavery. There is a resolution planned that gives +100% Trade Routes from increased tariffs, which can be passed if the UC head is running Foreign Trade.

Goodreau is the only planned merge in this mod- the rest is entirely up to Valk as to if the individual components get merged at all. I'm hoping to get this mod done on the timetable I stated, so that these things will come as quickly as my schedule will allow.

If possible, I might try to make a custom game option that disables the heroes if Valk wishes to merge them so players will be able to chose between the current setup and the DIAL setup.

Wall of Text

Those are some good ideas. I like the idea of forced tech sharing, as a way to improve the smaller civs.

Not too sure about the idea of the OC having no head. I suppose it could function in a similar way to the Global Congress that occurs in RFC. I do want to have the Head of the OC be able to implement things that are influenced by their civics, instead of the generic "Adopt Liberty/Republic" resolutions that are carried over from the UN in Vanilla BTS. This way, they have a "Political" platform that influences the other nations. But perhaps I can still include the civic-specific resolutions without a head of the OC, simply making that resolutions are avaliable to whomever is voting for them.

I should add some way to check to see if a resolution has passed and include that until it gets voted on again to cancel it. That way, its possible to eliminate a resolution without adopting the particular civic.

I could look into the buying and selling of vassals, but it would be a pain to code. Not sure even where to begin for that one, probably looking into the code to see when the vassalage is made and if its possible to create an effect chaging that without any severe reprecussions.


Perhaps I could have a UC resolution that bribes members of the OC to dissolve the council. The more members that pay to dissolve, the greater the number of AI players could vote. That would be a challenge, as I would have to edit the amount of gold for each leader based on their system of honor and how willingly they would accept a bribe.

As far as Heroes are concerned, you make a valid point. I'll look into seeing whether I can edit the resurrection spell as suggested.


Population Voting for the UC


That will affect some of my resolutions, especially if I were to try doing vassal-selling/switching. Thanks for the heads up on that, but thankfully the UC comes last on my to-do list so I wont have to worry about fiddling with population balances until then.

That's something I want to change with this mod- By making the councils a lasting influence in game instead of a one shot thing. While each Council will have a recruit/enlist resolution that can be done repeatedly (Radiant Guard for the OC and Nightwatch for the UC, respectively), there will be an incredibly large number of Civic-Specific resolutions that can only be brought forth if the Council Head is running that civic.

For example, if you're running the Liberty Civic as the head of the Overcouncil, you can pass a resolution that unlocks some sort of building that publishes the works of fledgling writers and philosophers, granting a culture and gold boost to cities it is constructed in. Likewise, if you're running Industry, you can pass a resolution that gives forges a +1 :health: bonus in the form of worker safety regulations.

Likewise, The Undercouncil has Civic Specific resolutions as well. For example, the Slave Trade Resolution can only be passed if running Slavery. There is a resolution planned that gives +100% Trade Routes from increased tariffs, which can be passed if the UC head is running Foreign Trade.

All interesting.

If you can tie options to the Civic of the head of a Council, then could you also tie some to the religion of the head also?

Instead of making it always Radiant Guard and Nightwatch, make those dependent on the leaders religion.

Esus = Nightwatch
Empyrean = Radiant Guard
Order = Confessor?
Runes = Soldier of Kilmorph
Fellowship = Treant
OO = Lunatic
Ash = Ritualist?

Updated a bit with some of the planned heroes/resolutions/Goodreau changes. These are not the complete, nor final, lists. But feel free to get a sense of what I'm doing.

And remember that the OC resolutions are currently very, very, VERY tweakable. Thats maybe a third of the list, excluding the Head of the OC resolutions. I plan on giving every civic at least two resolutions they can suggest, save for civics like StW, but depending on the new Alignment system, that may change- feel free to suggest resolutions for them, or any civic.

I'm honored! Vara was deemed good enough to be in this? Honored!

Yes, and if you feel that I've not represented her correctly, feel free to tell me what I should change.

This also reminds me- if anybody can provide the links to the stories (since in my stupidity, I forgot to record them :crazyeye: ), then it will be greatly appreciated. Especially so I can update the credits list.

not at all! seems very good.

and they're all in the stories thread.

not at all! seems very good.

and they're all in the stories thread.

Got it. And updated with the Authors who introduced the respective characters.

Looks interesting. ;)

Er, one or two quibbles on Goodreau.

First, I've always liked that the Grigori don't favor or fund any religion, period, just as they won't stop any religion, period, unless it violates their laws. So the same reason the Lunnotar could set up would be the same reason a veil temple could be set up. But that comes with no assistance from the state, which Goodreau's offer to fund Lunnotar does.

If it were out of his own pocket as a merchant, sure. Personally, I see the Lunnotar as the 'jews' of Erebus, with powerful financial with hidden public faces who look out for their own, so there could easily be money to be made, but an outright stipend doesn't sound like it would hold up. Neither does Goodreau pursuing another religion, come to that.


Second, instead of replacing the Grigori unique building with a Goodreau-only one, why not simply add a new unique building to the Grigori? Lord knows they need more building options in general, and taking away one of their only ones for just one leader? He's not the only one who has connections to the Lunnotar, one would think.

If you want a leader-specific tie-in to the Lunnotar, why not make a second unique leader trait for him? It could do anything from also allowing Museums (or the new UB) to have +1 priest/Great Prophet Point, or boost the number of Lunnotar, or something else.


Other than that, I love the ideas and hope they can be tied in with the main mod.

One point where I think you were confused; The Grigori won't lose the Museum. Goodreau just gets access to a different version, which carries a Priest specialist.

Actually, some of the new trait tags could work here... Merged a few things from Orbis, and traits can now enhance Specialist yield/commerces.

The point still stands, though; civs should, by and large, have the same buildings regardless of leaders. Main exception would be Scions, but that's a far larger extreme. Putting a difference due to leader trait, rather than changed buildings, is a bit more sensible.

It is, yes, but adding a Priest specialist via trait is undesirable for a few reasons:


Can't do it yet, the tags don't exist (Minor issue, as I could add them if really needed, but the point still stands)
Simply adding a Priest specialist slot via trait would allow you to use it from game start, rather than requiring you to build your empire, acquire the correct tech, and then devote hammers to it.


The second point is the big one, IMO. If a leader is going to have a specialist like this, I think it should be done via building, to keep it from coming too early. ;)

Why not simply add a priest slot to the building? Or make a new building?

Why does the Grigori need a unique building for a single leader alone?

Why add a priest slot to a building for the Grigori as a whole? Cassiel would NEVER finance a priest in any way. Goodreau is different, and wants to believe the Luonnotar... I wouldn't add a priest slot, or new building with a priest slot, to the civ as a whole.

It would be trivial to make a new building for his trait (Done for a few other traits, like Tyrant), but then you have to make it useful... Seeing as all that's intended for it is a priest slot, that seems rather useless to me. I really don't have an issue with most Grigori leaders getting the normal museum, while Goodreau gets one with a priest slot.

Hell, if we really wanted to we could make a new building (An addition) which just carries the priest slot... Then if a leader with the Meritocrat trait builds the Museum, they gain the addon as well. Could look at the way the Spider nests and the Alcinus buildings indent... May just be a text key, actually. Fairly sure they are displayed in the city screen in the order they are in the XML, so as long as the new one is right below the Museum it will always display below it... Putting the TAB command in the text key for the Building Name should cause it to display correctly too. ;)

There are a few ways that the issue can be handled.

The first is using the current method in which the building provides a +1 GPP for Prophets. The next is in the providing of a Priest Slot in the building itself. The purpose of this is to give a way for the Grigori to achieve the Altar Victory without being incredibly lucky and scoring one through the Amathon/Cerdiwen events or a Dungeon, or waiting until Religious Law for Theocracy.

Now, we could supposedly make an entirely seperate building or Grigori-Specific national wonder, such as an Temple of the Luonnotar that gives the priest specialist, or making a building clone as planned where the Museum gives a Priest Specialist.

To be honest, I'm not exactly sure which method is more balanced. There are alot of variables- having multiple museums versus a single national wonder, a specialist slot versus a free specialist, and Specialist vs straight GPP. The more I think about it, I'm tempted to leave the museum as is and use the National Wonder which gives a free Priest Specialist, avaliable at Ancient Chants.

The purpose of giving Goodreau this differentiation is in the way he thinks- he did lose his daughter and saw her in what is presumably Arawn's Vault, and he is somewhat familiar with the Luonnotar and the whole idea of what occurs when the One returns to Erebus. Cassiel has no specific way to get priests, and Esirce can use his Tolerant trait to get priest specialists, but both require you to go out of your way to do so. Goodreau has this ability from the early on which gives him the ability to start generating Great Prophet Points to build levels of the Altar.

It just doesn't sit well. Religion, and religious feuds, are the reason why Goodreau came to the Grigori and became Goodreau in the first place. He's not a religious man; rather he was, but he is no longer a religious man of any sorts because of what has made him become Goodreau. The justification just is nearly farce: hey, Goodreau, your daughter was murdered by the gods and you turned your back on all the religions that oppose her murderer to come to a nation of agnostics, why don't you join/fund a tiny cult and that worships another god who has no proof of existing? And not just any of the multitude of pagan cults, but one in particular?

Goodreau lost his daughter... to the gods. He came to the Grigori... to turn his back on them. The Grigori are the truest agnostics in the game; they (as a people/government) don't follow any god, good or evil, for any reason. That's what makes them the Grigori, and not merely a secular Elohiem. "I'll do anything to get my girl back" doesn't quite cover it when (a) he'll be with her when he dies, and (b) pursuing a religious doctrine/goal counters the entire reason for both coming to the Grigori and what the Grigori stand for.

I dont have the exact quote, but IIRC, Goodreau's daughter says something along the lines of that they will be together when the One comes. This, plus that being the ONLY thing written with Goodreau, makes me wonder exactly how far he will stick to Cassiel's Agnosticism and how far he, as an individual, is willing to go and how much he is willing to stake on being reunited with his daughter.

Remember that his daughter was not killed by the gods- She was killed by a Veil Worshiper during a ritual sacrifice. Goodreau, as an individual, understands the dangers of the religious fanaticism, but his duty as a father is one of the overriding character traits I wish to exemplify. He was/is Bannor, after all. As for following gods, the very presence of the Luonnotar UU (Replacing the Druid) is representative of some sort of widespread cult in the Grigori lands that substantiates some sort of religious activity (Nevermind that the Cult of the Luonnotar doesnt ACTUALLY know about the Luonnotar, but rather guessed at his existence).

Nevermind that the Grigori have a glaring flaw in their current status (which could be changed) between lore and gameplay- Cassiel, a supposed philosopher and mediator, has access to the earliest and the most powerful heroes in the game if used correctly. For a Civ that starts the game running Pacifisim, that strikes me as a bit odd.

Speaking of which, you're also a little bit off in your idea of the Grigori. While they are by and large an Agnostic and Godless people, religions can spread to their cities, and in the lore, there is nothing saying that the Grigori DONT practice religions on an individual basis. And remember that this is all under Cassiel- not Goodreau. Under Cassiel, there is a clear basis for not practicing religions openly, but what if the Grigori were under Goodreau? They still retain their agnosticism, there is nothing forcing the player to build the Temple of the Luonnotar, and there is nothing making the National Wonder that effective. The whole purpose is to give a way for the Grigori access to the Altar Victory, something which makes sense considering the Luonnotar's presence in Grigori lands.

Goodreau's funding of the Luonnotar in the lore is a choice that I didnt take lightly, since I effectively have to write the next chapter in his story, and still be truthful to the original character. I wrote him significantly after the point where he joins the Grigori, and I also wrote him as an individual that funds many independent entrepreneurs, whether they be adventurers, business owners, artist, or researchers. But I have to think from a gameplay perspective as well as a lore perspective- They have Cassiel, the Agnostic Philosopher, Esirce, the Tolerant Mediator, and then there is Goodreau, who was Financial, and is being replaced with a better version that focuses on the Grigori Adventurer Mechanic, but also gives the player the option to go the builder route as well. Its the same way why the Grigori arent blocked from the Theocracy Civic- its a concious decision to do this by the player and I want to give them that option [the Altar Victory] earlier.

I dont have the exact quote, but IIRC, Goodreau's daughter says something along the lines of that they will be together when the One comes. This, plus that being the ONLY thing written with Goodreau, makes me wonder exactly how far he will stick to Cassiel's Agnosticism and how far he, as an individual, is willing to go and how much he is willing to stake on being reunited with his daughter. Elizabeth, the daughter, knows nothing of the One, or the Lunnotar. All Cassiel told her is that the gods heavens aren't the True Heaven, but besides that told nothing about the One, that the Lunnotar are correct, or how (or if) true heaven could be opened. In that same line, he said that people had to improve what they had.

In the Cassiel pedia entry, Goodreau (Tamur) comes before Cassiel, completely renouncing the Bannor and religion that neither protected his daughter or comforted him after, and pledged to do all he could to help Cassiel. He doesn't go "I want my daughter back," or any stated or implied goals of bringing her back to life, but ends the pedia entry with his daughter telling him to follow Cassiel's creed.

At no point does Goodreau hear about the One, the Lunnotar, or the Alter, as any means to reunite with Elizabeth in his life time.


Remember that his daughter was not killed by the gods- She was killed by a Veil Worshiper during a ritual sacrifice. Goodreau, as an individual, understands the dangers of the religious fanaticism, but his duty as a father is one of the overriding character traits I wish to exemplify. He was/is Bannor, after all. As for following gods, the very presence of the Luonnotar UU (Replacing the Druid) is representative of some sort of widespread cult in the Grigori lands that substantiates some sort of religious activity (Nevermind that the Cult of the Luonnotar doesnt ACTUALLY know about the Luonnotar, but rather guessed at his existence).Veil Worshippers, and priesthoods in general, are representatives of their deities. It is accurate to say Goodreau lost Elizabeth to the gods, because that is exactly who and why she was sacrificed to and for. Elizabeth died because of religion, which is exactly what people flock to the Grigori for.

The Lunnotar are an immigrant group as much as a cult, and a fairly close-knit one; the historical analogy would be jews, who were always distinct and for whom conversions into the group were not historically common*. The Lunnotar are treated the same as any other religion, pagan or otherwise, and while this provides the same protections (which is why they come to the Grigori) it also entails the same restrictions (no government funding of a temple or organized conversions, as MC once put it). A government subsidy for the Lunnotar violates one of the basic principles of the Grigori government.

*In the Grigori lands, the pressures against organized religion and prostelyzing would apply to the Lunnotar as well.


Nevermind that the Grigori have a glaring flaw in their current status (which could be changed) between lore and gameplay- Cassiel, a supposed philosopher and mediator, has access to the earliest and the most powerful heroes in the game if used correctly. For a Civ that starts the game running Pacifisim, that strikes me as a bit odd. That's a play mechanic argument, not a lore argument. And lore wise, it's off: you're making positions based on player knowledge, not character knowledge.

Your defense rests on that Goodreau would single out and support the religion of the Lunnotar because they are correct about the One, can build the Altar of Lunnotar, which will then bring back the One which will allow Goodreau to reunite with his daughter, which is his overriding objective because he's a Bannor family man.

Except...

-Goodreau wouldn't have reason to know/suspect the Lunnotar to be anything but another cult who's prayers are never answered. The Lunnotar are never mentioned as being exceptional except by accident, which he wouldn't know.

-Government/governors supporting any religion, subsidy or otherwise, goes against Grigori, not just Cassiel, lore. Individuals can do so, but the government doesn't. That's why it's agnostic.

-The Altar of Lunnotar can no more claim to be able to deliver than any other of the World Wonders before they are made. Goodreau isn't a player who can look at the Civlopedia, see 'wow, this will bring the One into creation, thus allowing me to reunite with my daughter in life.' He can no more do that than other leaders could plan to build the Tower of Mastery before it was actually possible. You can't forward plan off of a tech tree you can't see.

-Goodreau openly turns his back on who he was as a Bannor. It's part of casting aside Timur in the first place and becoming Goodreau. He came to Cassiel to help, knowing Cassiel and the Grigori, not the other way around.



Speaking of which, you're also a little bit off in your idea of the Grigori. While they are by and large an Agnostic and Godless people, religions can spread to their cities, and in the lore, there is nothing saying that the Grigori DONT practice religions on an individual basis. And remember that this is all under Cassiel- not Goodreau. I specifically made a point of using collective, not absolute, description. As a people, the Grigori are agnostic. As a government, the Grigori are agnostic. Individual Grigori adopt religion, but they aren't allowed to press it to others, and the government can't support it at all. That's not even a Cassiel thing, it's a Grigori one. Magist C. has written about it around here somewhere.

That's why I suggested changing the wording so that Goodreau himself would donate his own money on his own behalf for anything. That would be him as an individual, that would work well as a leader trait, and it would neatly sidestep most of the problems I see and go back to the gameplay arguments (about whether they need a new building in general, a replacement for an already existing one, or just a leader trait).


Under Cassiel, there is a clear basis for not practicing religions openly, but what if the Grigori were under Goodreau? They still retain their agnosticism, there is nothing forcing the player to build the Temple of the Luonnotar, and there is nothing making the National Wonder that effective. The whole purpose is to give a way for the Grigori access to the Altar Victory, something which makes sense considering the Luonnotar's presence in Grigori lands.The solution to that would be to restore the ability of Lunnotar to build the Altar themselves, like they used to. That makes a very handy solution, and I can't even remember why they took it away in the first place. Make that part of Goodreau's unique trait, even, and bam.

My objection is there being any basis for Goodreau to support the Lunnotar as a ruler of the Grigori, let alone being reflected like that. On a lore standpoint, I also question the basis for any assumption for Goodreau returning to good old-fashioned religion after religion is what drove him to the Grigori in the first place. In Erebus, if you want a religion of good that opposes evil, whether vengance or otherwise, you have them. If you want to meet dead family, you can do that too (whether dark arts or simply dying yourself). And if you want to build the Altar of the Lunnotar, any religion can do that. But the Lunnotar don't really have anything in particular to offer. The One doesn't offer prayers, it's not good for the life expectancy in general, and the only benefit is that other gods won't touch you, which really isn't the matter in question.

In short, I just don't see any reason why Goodreau would/should get a unique priest option at all in the context of being a Grigori leader.

Goodreau's funding of the Luonnotar in the lore is a choice that I didnt take lightly, since I effectively have to write the next chapter in his story, and still be truthful to the original character. I wrote him significantly after the point where he joins the Grigori, and I also wrote him as an individual that funds many independent entrepreneurs, whether they be adventurers, business owners, artist, or researchers. But I have to think from a gameplay perspective as well as a lore perspective- They have Cassiel, the Agnostic Philosopher, Esirce, the Tolerant Mediator, and then there is Goodreau, who was Financial, and is being replaced with a better version that focuses on the Grigori Adventurer Mechanic, but also gives the player the option to go the builder route as well. Its the same way why the Grigori arent blocked from the Theocracy Civic- its a concious decision to do this by the player and I want to give them that option [the Altar Victory] earlier.I disagree about what I disagree with, and think you're wrong about what I've already said. Nothing more, nothing less, and to be honest there isn't much less we could be differing on in regards to your proposal.

I think meritocracy is a great idea. A Adventurer-centered leader would be cool. Overall, I like what you've done. I even think you could go for more. I just don't think replacing a unique building for a leader-specific unique building with a priest slot with your justification is good enough.



So my objection to this point has been... a proposed unique building and half a sentance in your proposed civlopedia entry? Sounds about right.

Elizabeth, the daughter, knows nothing of the One, or the Lunnotar. All Cassiel told her is that the gods heavens aren't the True Heaven, but besides that told nothing about the One, that the Lunnotar are correct, or how (or if) true heaven could be opened. In that same line, he said that people had to improve what they had.

In the Cassiel pedia entry, Goodreau (Tamur) comes before Cassiel, completely renouncing the Bannor and religion that neither protected his daughter or comforted him after, and pledged to do all he could to help Cassiel. He doesn't go "I want my daughter back," or any stated or implied goals of bringing her back to life, but ends the pedia entry with his daughter telling him to follow Cassiel's creed.

At no point does Goodreau hear about the One, the Lunnotar, or the Alter, as any means to reunite with Elizabeth in his life time.


Once again, I need to point out that there is only one legitimate account of Goodreau in the lore. Because of this, it leaves the character open for growth. At what point does the pedia entry I write state that Goodreau's financing of the Luonnotar occurs directly after his acceptance into Grigori society?

It doesnt. And therein lies the whole purpose of this arguement- I have written the character of Goodreau quite a long time after his encounter with Cassiel. There is no reason to state that he has yet to hear about the One, Luonnotar, Altar, or any such thing when, over the course of an indeterminate amount of years, he could have picked up the knowledge of the Luonnotar as a Merchant.



Veil Worshippers, and priesthoods in general, are representatives of their deities. It is accurate to say Goodreau lost Elizabeth to the gods, because that is exactly who and why she was sacrificed to and for. Elizabeth died because of religion, which is exactly what people flock to the Grigori for.

The Lunnotar are an immigrant group as much as a cult, and a fairly close-knit one; the historical analogy would be jews, who were always distinct and for whom conversions into the group were not historically common*. The Lunnotar are treated the same as any other religion, pagan or otherwise, and while this provides the same protections (which is why they come to the Grigori) it also entails the same restrictions (no government funding of a temple or organized conversions, as MC once put it). A government subsidy for the Lunnotar violates one of the basic principles of the Grigori government.

*In the Grigori lands, the pressures against organized religion and prostelyzing would apply to the Lunnotar as well.



I would say that a Priest would be an acting representative of a God, but not any run-of-the-mill worshiper. Elizabeth died because of a religion, that much is true, but she died at the hand of a worshipper. A fanatic. To me, from what I read of Cassiel's pedia entry, that blind faith is what Goodreau fled from.

Also, I believe you need to re-read the pedia entry I wrote for him. You seem to fail to grasp the fact that it is not a government stipend, but rather a personal stipend. Goodreau is funding the Luonnotar from his own pocket, not out of the government budget. Moreover, I am well aware of the treatment of religions in Grigori lands, and I would like to point out that this is represented in both lore and gameplay- Goodreau specifically states

However, I am a merchant, and I see an opportunity here. I’ll give you a chance to spread your faith amongst the people as I have let all religions do so, and you will have a stipend to construct a temple in Midgar. But hear me well- we are no theocracy.

If anywhere in the lore proves that religions simply dont exist in Grigori lands and dont spread at all, then I'll let it fall. But its hard to imagine that there isnt the occasional temple that exists somewhere. Goodreau isnt proclaiming a theocracy or advocating a state religion, he is simply funding the creation of a temple from out of his own personal funds.


That's a play mechanic argument, not a lore argument. And lore wise, it's off: you're making positions based on player knowledge, not character knowledge.


I'm making positions based on my knowledge as a player and as a writer. I'm not going to introduce a mechanic that does not improve the gameplay in a way that the lore supports.

Your defense rests on that Goodreau would single out and support the religion of the Lunnotar because they are correct about the One, can build the Altar of Lunnotar, which will then bring back the One which will allow Goodreau to reunite with his daughter, which is his overriding objective because he's a Bannor family man.


Except...

-Goodreau wouldn't have reason to know/suspect the Lunnotar to be anything but another cult who's prayers are never answered. The Lunnotar are never mentioned as being exceptional except by accident, which he wouldn't know.


See above as to why this is not true.


-Government/governors supporting any religion, subsidy or otherwise, goes against Grigori, not just Cassiel, lore. Individuals can do so, but the government doesn't. That's why it's agnostic.


Once again, please re-read the pedia entry and note the fact that he is supporting the Luonnotar out of his own pocket.


-The Altar of Lunnotar can no more claim to be able to deliver than any other of the World Wonders before they are made. Goodreau isn't a player who can look at the Civlopedia, see 'wow, this will bring the One into creation, thus allowing me to reunite with my daughter in life.' He can no more do that than other leaders could plan to build the Tower of Mastery before it was actually possible. You can't forward plan off of a tech tree you can't see.

I am well aware of this. But at this point, I can only reffer you to my arguements I've already made. This Goodreau is not the same Goodreau as before, there has been a LONG period of time since he met with Cassiel. People, and characters, are not static elements. They can change with time, and I think I've accomplished portraying that growth.


-Goodreau openly turns his back on who he was as a Bannor. It's part of casting aside Timur in the first place and becoming Goodreau. He came to Cassiel to help, knowing Cassiel and the Grigori, not the other way around.

Admittedly, using "He's a Bannor" was a rather stupid arguement. But keep in mind that he is still a Father. The concept of a family differs little between the Bannor and the Grigori, and that is something that I dont think will change. One does not simply stop loving their children because they change nationality.


I specifically made a point of using collective, not absolute, description. As a people, the Grigori are agnostic. As a government, the Grigori are agnostic. Individual Grigori adopt religion, but they aren't allowed to press it to others, and the government can't support it at all. That's not even a Cassiel thing, it's a Grigori one. Magist C. has written about it around here somewhere.


I know. Believe me, I've had an entire arguement with Magister on this topic before.


That's why I suggested changing the wording so that Goodreau himself would donate his own money on his own behalf for anything. That would be him as an individual, that would work well as a leader trait, and it would neatly sidestep most of the problems I see and go back to the gameplay arguments (about whether they need a new building in general, a replacement for an already existing one, or just a leader trait).


If it isnt clear, I will edit the pedia entry as such.


The solution to that would be to restore the ability of Lunnotar to build the Altar themselves, like they used to. That makes a very handy solution, and I can't even remember why they took it away in the first place. Make that part of Goodreau's unique trait, even, and bam.

IIRC, it was removed because the Luonnotar could build ALL the levels of the altar, where everyone else had to wait for Great Prophets to do so.

Its an interesting solution, but once again defeats the purpose of getting the Altar started early, as opposed to when the player gets Commune with Nature.


My objection is there being any basis for Goodreau to support the Lunnotar as a ruler of the Grigori, let alone being reflected like that. On a lore standpoint, I also question the basis for any assumption for Goodreau returning to good old-fashioned religion after religion is what drove him to the Grigori in the first place.

The whole Father-Daughter connection, time gap, and personal link, not as a ruler, but as an individual, dont solve that issue?


In Erebus, if you want a religion of good that opposes evil, whether vengance or otherwise, you have them. If you want to meet dead family, you can do that too (whether dark arts or simply dying yourself).

Yes, and the Luonnotar are not functioning like an in game religion does. It doesnt spread from city to city, its got one building chain that starts with a hefty hammer cost (450 hammers is the cost I have in my notes and will be the basic cost).

And if you want to build the Altar of the Lunnotar, any religion can do that.


Last time I checked, you had to be Good or Neutral to build the Altar (which I'm assuming remains the same as of the new Alignment system, where LG, NG, CG, LN, NN, and CN can build the Altar). Therfore, no, not all religions can build the altar.

But the Lunnotar don't really have anything in particular to offer. The One doesn't offer prayers, it's not good for the life expectancy in general, and the only benefit is that other gods won't touch you, which really isn't the matter in question.

In short, I just don't see any reason why Goodreau would/should get a unique priest option at all in the context of being a Grigori leader.
I disagree about what I disagree with, and think you're wrong about what I've already said. Nothing more, nothing less, and to be honest there isn't much less we could be differing on in regards to your proposal.

I think meritocracy is a great idea. A Adventurer-centered leader would be cool. Overall, I like what you've done. I even think you could go for more. I just don't think replacing a unique building for a leader-specific unique building with a priest slot with your justification is good enough.

I'm not replacing a building, I'm adding an entirely new, optional, national wonder. The original plan was to replace a building with an exact replica of the Museum. The only change is that it would give it a Priest Slot as well. This idea has been changed to be a National Wonder that replaces no buildings and is completely optional.


So my objection to this point has been... a proposed unique building and half a sentance in your proposed civlopedia entry? Sounds about right.
Your objection has been to a good portion of the character and concept, which would require me to re-write the pedia entry (for a third time) to reflect the more adventurer-based aspects so that it leaves out the Luonnotar but still reflects Goodreau's personae. If he doesnt have this building, why did he meet with the Luonnotar in the first place? Half the pedia entry is gone right then and there.

On a side note, I love how one simple thing can generate pages and pages of text.

There seems to be an issue with the code somewhere- imported changes seem to consistenly and repeatedly CTD either during Mod Startup or during Map initialization. Not sure whats causing it. I wont upload until I know that it is stable.

Maybe upload in the RifE group thread, so I can look at it for you?

I sent you an invite to Google Wave, by the way, so you should be able to sign up. ;)

On a side note, I love how one simple thing can generate pages and pages of text.Don't you love how pages and pages of text can be simplified into a single, irreverent reply? :crazyeye:

Is this project still coming along or has it been dropped?

Is this project still coming along or has it been dropped?

It's still coming along :lol: Even though I haven't updated the thread, alot of the material has been pulled back into the hidden boundaries of "Team Only" because quite a bit of the work had to integrate into new features. Goodreau is an example of this: Since leaders are getting redone, Goodreau had to be put on relative hold until the main mod has it's major work done. The Heroes are relatively modular so they can be released at any moment, but I'm keeping them hidden for a while since, while all of them are finished, they are still rather... unfinished. Sometime's the AI simply ignores them in build orders, and getting them to revive correctly is still an issue, but there are a couple others which I'm getting ironed out. Dont worry, expect to see something soon :goodjob:

Just an idea for how to add the build altar options back to the Luonotar. Simply tie the various build level "x" spells to a prerequisite level, then have the spell kill the caster. This represents the civ having to work on developing units and sacrifice them to create the altar.

Also, I am developing a unique leader for the Grigori in the "Testers group," not sure if you have access, but maybe have a look at what I've got there and tell me if I'm stepping on any toes.

Just an idea for how to add the build altar options back to the Luonotar. Simply tie the various build level "x" spells to a prerequisite level, then have the spell kill the caster. This represents the civ having to work on developing units and sacrifice them to create the altar.

Also, I am developing a unique leader for the Grigori in the "Testers group," not sure if you have access, but maybe have a look at what I've got there and tell me if I'm stepping on any toes.

He should have access to both tester's group and team forum. ;)

Your leader shouldn't hurt Goodreau; Different traits.

Just an idea for how to add the build altar options back to the Luonotar. Simply tie the various build level "x" spells to a prerequisite level, then have the spell kill the caster. This represents the civ having to work on developing units and sacrifice them to create the altar.


I believe it is already implemented that way in the version of my modmod which I released back on March 3rd.

You also have to remember to make the spell remove previous versions of the altar.




<SpellInfo>
<Type>SPELL_BUILD_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR1</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_SPELL_BUILD_ALTAR_OF_LUONNOTAR</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_SPELL_FOUND_TEMPLE_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<UnitPrereq>UNIT_LUONNOTAR</UnitPrereq>
<bAllowAI>1</bAllowAI>
<bCasterNoDuration>1</bCasterNoDuration>
<bInBordersOnly>1</bInBordersOnly>
<bInCityOnly>1</bInCityOnly>
<bHasCasted>1</bHasCasted>
<CreateBuildingType>BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR</CreateBuildingType>
<bAbility>1</bAbility>
<bSacrificeCaster>1</bSacrificeCaster>
<PyRequirement>reqBuildAltarLuon1(pCaster)</PyRequirement>
<Effect>EFFECT_SPELL1</Effect>
<Sound>AS3D_SPELL_FOUND_TEMPLE</Sound>
<bGraphicalOnly>1</bGraphicalOnly>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Buildings/Altaroftheluonnotar.dds</Button>
</SpellInfo>
<SpellInfo>
<Type>SPELL_BUILD_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR2</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_SPELL_BUILD_ALTAR_OF_LUONNOTAR</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_SPELL_FOUND_TEMPLE_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<UnitPrereq>UNIT_LUONNOTAR</UnitPrereq>
<BuildingPrereq>BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR</BuildingPrereq>
<TechPrereq>TECH_MYSTICISM</TechPrereq>
<bAllowAI>1</bAllowAI>
<bCasterNoDuration>1</bCasterNoDuration>
<iCasterMinLevel>1</iCasterMinLevel>
<bInBordersOnly>1</bInBordersOnly>
<bInCityOnly>1</bInCityOnly>
<bHasCasted>1</bHasCasted>
<CreateBuildingType>BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR_ANOINTED</CreateBuildingType>
<bAbility>1</bAbility>
<bSacrificeCaster>1</bSacrificeCaster>
<PyResult>spellRemoveBuilding(pCaster, 'BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR')</PyResult>
<Effect>EFFECT_SPELL1</Effect>
<Sound>AS3D_SPELL_FOUND_TEMPLE</Sound>
<bGraphicalOnly>1</bGraphicalOnly>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Buildings/Altaroftheluonnotar2.dds</Button>
</SpellInfo>
<SpellInfo>
<Type>SPELL_BUILD_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR3</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_SPELL_BUILD_ALTAR_OF_LUONNOTAR</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_SPELL_FOUND_TEMPLE_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<UnitPrereq>UNIT_LUONNOTAR</UnitPrereq>
<BuildingPrereq>BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR_ANOINTED</BuildingPrereq>
<TechPrereq>TECH_PHILOSOPHY</TechPrereq>
<bAllowAI>1</bAllowAI>
<bCasterNoDuration>1</bCasterNoDuration>
<iCasterMinLevel>2</iCasterMinLevel>
<bInBordersOnly>1</bInBordersOnly>
<bInCityOnly>1</bInCityOnly>
<bHasCasted>1</bHasCasted>
<CreateBuildingType>BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR_BLESSED</CreateBuildingType>
<bAbility>1</bAbility>
<bSacrificeCaster>1</bSacrificeCaster>
<PyResult>spellRemoveBuilding(pCaster, 'BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR_ANOINTED')</PyResult>
<Effect>EFFECT_SPELL1</Effect>
<Sound>AS3D_SPELL_FOUND_TEMPLE</Sound>
<bGraphicalOnly>1</bGraphicalOnly>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Buildings/Altaroftheluonnotar3.dds</Button>
</SpellInfo>
<SpellInfo>
<Type>SPELL_BUILD_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR4</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_SPELL_BUILD_ALTAR_OF_LUONNOTAR</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_SPELL_FOUND_TEMPLE_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<UnitPrereq>UNIT_LUONNOTAR</UnitPrereq>
<BuildingPrereq>BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR_BLESSED</BuildingPrereq>
<TechPrereq>TECH_PRIESTHOOD</TechPrereq>
<bAllowAI>1</bAllowAI>
<bCasterNoDuration>1</bCasterNoDuration>
<iCasterMinLevel>3</iCasterMinLevel>
<bInBordersOnly>1</bInBordersOnly>
<bInCityOnly>1</bInCityOnly>
<bHasCasted>1</bHasCasted>
<CreateBuildingType>BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR_CONSECRATED</CreateBuildingType>
<bAbility>1</bAbility>
<bSacrificeCaster>1</bSacrificeCaster>
<PyResult>spellRemoveBuilding(pCaster, 'BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR_BLESSED')</PyResult>
<Effect>EFFECT_SPELL1</Effect>
<Sound>AS3D_SPELL_FOUND_TEMPLE</Sound>
<bGraphicalOnly>1</bGraphicalOnly>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Buildings/Altaroftheluonnotar4.dds</Button>
</SpellInfo>
<SpellInfo>
<Type>SPELL_BUILD_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR5</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_SPELL_BUILD_ALTAR_OF_LUONNOTAR</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_SPELL_FOUND_TEMPLE_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<UnitPrereq>UNIT_LUONNOTAR</UnitPrereq>
<BuildingPrereq>BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR_CONSECRATED</BuildingPrereq>
<TechPrereq>TECH_FANATICISM</TechPrereq>
<bAllowAI>1</bAllowAI>
<bCasterNoDuration>1</bCasterNoDuration>
<iCasterMinLevel>5</iCasterMinLevel>
<bInBordersOnly>1</bInBordersOnly>
<bInCityOnly>1</bInCityOnly>
<bHasCasted>1</bHasCasted>
<CreateBuildingType>BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR_DIVINE</CreateBuildingType>
<bAbility>1</bAbility>
<bSacrificeCaster>1</bSacrificeCaster>
<PyResult>spellRemoveBuilding(pCaster, 'BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR_CONSECRATED')</PyResult>
<Effect>EFFECT_SPELL1</Effect>
<Sound>AS3D_SPELL_FOUND_TEMPLE</Sound>
<bGraphicalOnly>1</bGraphicalOnly>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Buildings/Altaroftheluonnotar5.dds</Button>
</SpellInfo>
<SpellInfo>
<Type>SPELL_BUILD_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR6</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_SPELL_BUILD_ALTAR_OF_LUONNOTAR</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_SPELL_FOUND_TEMPLE_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<UnitPrereq>UNIT_LUONNOTAR</UnitPrereq>
<BuildingPrereq>BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR_DIVINE</BuildingPrereq>
<TechPrereq>TECH_RIGHTEOUSNESS</TechPrereq>
<bAllowAI>1</bAllowAI>
<bCasterNoDuration>1</bCasterNoDuration>
<iCasterMinLevel>8</iCasterMinLevel>
<bInBordersOnly>1</bInBordersOnly>
<bInCityOnly>1</bInCityOnly>
<bHasCasted>1</bHasCasted>
<CreateBuildingType>BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR_EXALTED</CreateBuildingType>
<bAbility>1</bAbility>
<bSacrificeCaster>1</bSacrificeCaster>
<PyResult>spellRemoveBuilding(pCaster, 'BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR_DIVINE')</PyResult>
<Effect>EFFECT_SPELL1</Effect>
<Sound>AS3D_SPELL_FOUND_TEMPLE</Sound>
<bGraphicalOnly>1</bGraphicalOnly>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Buildings/Altaroftheluonnotar6.dds</Button>
</SpellInfo>

<SpellInfo>
<Type>SPELL_BUILD_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR7</Type>
<Description>TXT_KEY_SPELL_BUILD_ALTAR_OF_LUONNOTAR</Description>
<Civilopedia>TXT_KEY_PLACEHOLDER_PEDIA</Civilopedia>
<UnitPrereq>UNIT_LUONNOTAR</UnitPrereq>
<BuildingPrereq>BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR_EXALTED</BuildingPrereq>
<TechPrereq>TECH_OMNISCIENCE</TechPrereq>
<bAllowAI>1</bAllowAI>
<bCasterNoDuration>1</bCasterNoDuration>
<iCasterMinLevel>13</iCasterMinLevel>
<bInBordersOnly>1</bInBordersOnly>
<bInCityOnly>1</bInCityOnly>
<bHasCasted>1</bHasCasted>
<CreateBuildingType>BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR_FINAL</CreateBuildingType>
<bAbility>1</bAbility>
<bSacrificeCaster>1</bSacrificeCaster>
<PyResult>spellRemoveBuilding(pCaster, 'BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUONNOTAR_EXALTED')</PyResult>
<Effect>EFFECT_SPELL1</Effect>
<Sound>AS3D_SPELL_FOUND_TEMPLE</Sound>
<bGraphicalOnly>1</bGraphicalOnly>
<Button>Art/Interface/Buttons/Buildings/Altaroftheluonnotar7.dds</Button>
</SpellInfo>




def reqBuildAltarLuon1(pCaster):
iBuild = gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUILDING_ALTAR_OF_THE_LUO NNOTAR')
iPlayer = pCaster.getOwner()
pPlayer = gc.getPlayer(iPlayer)
for pyCity in PyPlayer(iPlayer).getCityList() :
pCity = pyCity.GetCy()
if pCity.getNumRealBuilding(iBuild) > 0:
return False
return True


def spellRemoveBuilding(pCaster, sBuilding):
pPlot = pCaster.plot()
pCity = pPlot.getPlotCity()
pCity.setNumRealBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString(s Building), 0)

While letting the Luonnotar build the Altar and die, I'm fairly set in Goodreau's gathering of GPs to gain Altar levels, as it allows a longer progression in the same way other civs can get the Altar. If this feels too odd to people, Magister's method could be substituted.