First of all I'd like to thank the developers of this fine mod. It takes the Dune books and combine it with the old RTS game into our beloved CIV4 engine. Great immersion, nice finish, cool graphics and excellent gameplay. Good Work! :goodjob:

After playing a game I got a couple of ideas for a modmod, so here it is :


- Its basically a Improvement Revision where the workers no longer can build multiple improvements. When a worker is finished he will be consumed (now working as a miner/dew collecter/well keeper/wind trap manager/spice farmer etc etc.) This way you'd have to build a worker for each improvement (The AI does this exceptionally well). The price for the worker has been halved to balance it out. This way the AI wont destroy existing improvements just because the workers have nothing better to do. The AI will however upgrade mines and wind mills.


- It also adds two new workers :

Engineer Troops (Techs: Desert Engineering + Still Suits), that cost almost double (normal worker price) and works twice as fast. It also have minor protection (Str 2).
This worker will be able to build advanced buildings that the normal worker cannot (Mine lvl2 lvl3, wind mills lvl2 lvl3, forts, resevoir etc)

Airborn Workers (Techs: Dune Topography + Spice Industry) that cost double and works 150% faster than normal workers with 3 in flying movement.


- The mod also adds a new improvement : Resevoir. It can only be placed next to a water well (irrigated) and will slowly fill with water. For now there are 3 levels : Empty (+1 water with well), Half Full (1 water + 1 water with well) and Full (2 water +1 water with well). It also adds +1 water with the Water Discipline civic. The size of the resevoir graphic shows the amount of water is in it.


- The same size difference goes for the mines and the wind mills, so its easier to spot old improvements that needs upgrading.


NOT MODULAR, REPLACES EXISTING FILES :

- It rearranges the unit build order in the cities to a more organized level :
Melee, Guardsmen, Guardsmen with missiles, Siege weapons, Vehicles, Suspensors, Thopters, Hornets, Ix, Special People, Workers


- And lastly it activates for modular support in Dune Wars.ini
[CONFIG]

; Modular XML Loading
ModularLoading = 1 ; (Was 0 before)

Installation : Merge folder with Dune Wars in
...\Civilization4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\Dune Wars\


PS. V is for Vincentz ;)

Glad to see there are fans enthusiastic enough to make modmods! More power to you.

My concerns would be:
I would be very surprised if the AI did a good job with multiple worker types needed for different types of improvements. With a single worker type, the AI can build whatever improvements it thinks its cities need; if a city is low on hammers, its workers will build more mines. With multiple worker types for different improvements, it can't do this; the unit building AI isn't linked to the improvement construction AI, so separating these decisions significantly weakens AI performance.
Constantly having to build new workers for new improvements seems incredibly frustrating and micromanagementy. To build improvements for a new colony, I have to constantly keep ferrying new worker units out; I can't just take a couple and have them build the improvements

I don't understand why a reservoir would provide water directly somehow. A reservoir is just storage for water; it doesn't somehow make there be more water present. If I take water out of a reservoir, the reservoir level declines unless I replace it with water from somewhere else.
Also, open reservoirs on the surface would just evaporate quickly and get filled with sand.

- It rearranges the unit build order in the cities to a more organized level :
Melee, Guardsmen, Guardsmen with missiles, Siege weapons, Vehicles, Suspensors, Thopters, Hornets, Ix, Special People, Workers

Not really sure what this means. You just mean the order in which the icons are displayed?
Not a bad idea.

But I think its fantastic for you to tweak the mod to however you prefer to play it, and to make that available to others.

This looks very interesting! There are certain ideas which I am definitely interested to move into the main mod, but some of them may need further discussion.

Which version of Dune Wars is this compatible with? I looked into your unitclassinfos file and some of the names there are old ones. The current version is 1.6.1, from October 20, and the current patch is 1.6.5, from November 24.

We do plan to add a "Carryall worker" which is simlar to your airborn worker. As usual, the trick is to find or create unit art so the player can distinguish this unit from other units. I am not so sure about the rest of the worker re-arrangement you have done; what is the difference in play from requiring suiciding workers and two different levels of workers? Are you sure the AI will build both types of workers?

The reservoir is an interesting idea. It may tie into the terraforming mechanics. For example, today once your terrain upgrades to grassland, there is a small chance that a lake will appear. The lake also counts as fresh water, which enables grassland to appear around it. If you are lucky, you may get chains of lakes which extend the terraformed area. But the user cannot really control it. The reservoir might enable something similar, but under user control. Just as you can chain irrigation in vanilla, perhaps chaining reservoirs would allow the user to extend the terraformed area faster.

- It rearranges the unit build order in the cities to a more organized level :
Melee, Guardsmen, Guardsmen with missiles, Siege weapons, Vehicles, Suspensors, Thopters, Hornets, Ix, Special People, Workers

I am not quite sure what this means. Did you re-arrange unitclassinfos.xml by sorting the unitclasses within the file? I looked briefly into this file but it does not seem to be organized that way. Please help me to understand this change better.

- And lastly it activates for modular support in Dune Wars.ini

I have been a little nervous about modular loading. I have not done much with it. But, there are often interactions between different xml files; one obvious interaction is a unit will require a tech, so the contents of the unitinfo file depends on the contents of the techinfo file. I have added a number of interactions, such as civilizations which are forbidden to follow certain religions. I am not sure if modular loading will account for all these.

Are you pretty sure that the game plays the same, with and without modular loading? I think this may require some careful testing.

ohhh how nice!!!

well done! hope this mod grows!


i acctually i was planning in later version to have a modmod aswell :)

good luck.

Post #2 above edited.

1 ) I would be very surprised if the AI did a good job with multiple worker types needed for different types of improvements. With a single worker type, the AI can build whatever improvements it thinks its cities need; if a city is low on hammers, its workers will build more mines. With multiple worker types for different improvements, it can't do this; the unit building AI isn't linked to the improvement construction AI, so separating these decisions significantly weakens AI performance.
2) Constantly having to build new workers for new improvements seems incredibly frustrating and micromanagementy. To build improvements for a new colony, I have to constantly keep ferrying new worker units out; I can't just take a couple and have them build the improvements

3) I don't understand why a reservoir would provide water directly somehow. A reservoir is just storage for water; it doesn't somehow make there be more water present. If I take water out of a reservoir, the reservoir level declines unless I replace it with water from somewhere else.
Also, open reservoirs on the surface would just evaporate quickly and get filled with sand.



4) Not really sure what this means. You just mean the order in which the icons are displayed?
Not a bad idea.


1) It will only be the "vanilla" worker that is "limited", and only with the level2-3 improvements, resevoir and forts. It will upgrade to either the Engineer Trooper or the Airborn Worker which means as soon as both is available the "vanilla" will disappear. The Scout Thopter can also upgrade to Airborn Worker and the "Warrior" can upgrade to Engineer Troops.

2) My first impression was that there was long periods where the cities could only produce units. This way they can improve the land around them. In my tests I would build a worker when I first placed the city and maybe bring another one with me. This made up a good start. I havent tested it on a full game yet, and I will propably change it back to the original settings after awhile ;)

3) It doesnt provide water directly, but from a pump (well) or irrigated area. I made them to symbolize the huge fremen watercaches that one day shall turn dune into a paradise. It seems from my initial tests that it does help speed up the terraforming.

4) I just arranged the unit build icons by category, so the icons always will start out with melee units first, then guardsmen etc etc. The old system changed the position. F.ex the soldier (Guardsmen level 1) would be nr. 3 (after settler and worker) but when the Infantry (Guardsmen level 2) was available, it would be nr. 6 or 7 after f.ex the thopter. Now the category order will remain during the entire game making it alot easier to find whatever you're looking for.


1) Which version of Dune Wars is this compatible with? I looked into your unitclassinfos file and some of the names there are old ones. The current version is 1.6.1, from October 20, and the current patch is 1.6.5, from November 24.

2) We do plan to add a "Carryall worker" which is simlar to your airborn worker.
3) As usual, the trick is to find or create unit art so the player can distinguish this unit from other units. I am not so sure about the rest of the worker re-arrangement you have done; what is the difference in play from requiring suiciding workers and two different levels of workers?
4) Are you sure the AI will build both types of workers?

5) The reservoir is an interesting idea. It may tie into the terraforming mechanics. For example, today once your terrain upgrades to grassland, there is a small chance that a lake will appear. The lake also counts as fresh water, which enables grassland to appear around it. If you are lucky, you may get chains of lakes which extend the terraformed area. But the user cannot really control it. The reservoir might enable something similar, but under user control. Just as you can chain irrigation in vanilla, perhaps chaining reservoirs would allow the user to extend the terraformed area faster.

6) I am not quite sure what this means. Did you re-arrange unitclassinfos.xml by sorting the unitclasses within the file? I looked briefly into this file but it does not seem to be organized that way. Please help me to understand this change better.

7) I have been a little nervous about modular loading. I have not done much with it. But, there are often interactions between different xml files; one obvious interaction is a unit will require a tech, so the contents of the unitinfo file depends on the contents of the techinfo file. I have added a number of interactions, such as civilizations which are forbidden to follow certain religions. I am not sure if modular loading will account for all these.

8) Are you pretty sure that the game plays the same, with and without modular loading? I think this may require some careful testing.

1) My first attempt didnt work out and as I didnt make backup, I had to reinstall. Then I found out that I didnt update 2nd time. So I had to do it all over :(
Next upload will be with the right version ;)

2) Maybe it should have been a carry all instead of a thopter.

3) Usually I make icons in my mods, but this is still in the testing, so Icons will come later ;)

4) Need some testing on that. I tried to turn on game.toggledebugmode, but it came of with a python exception every turn. Does anyone knows how to turn it off?

5) I only played one game so far, but it seems like it speeds up terraforming. Dont know yet if it overdoes it.

6) Yep, I changed the (wrong 1.61) unitclassinfos.xml, so the different categories is maintained in the before mentioned order. That makes it a lot easier to find the right unittype to train. Same as in vanilla civ where the order was : Special people, melee/archers, cavalry, tanks, planes, boats.

7) I put it back to 0, and it still works, so no need to change that file.
Edit : No it didnt. It has to be enabled.

8) I have been doing a lot of modmods with the WoC format with Rise of Mankind, so I think it should be working out fine.

But now its time for testing ;)
Then I'll upload an update.

It will only be the "vanilla" worker that is "limited", and only with the level2-3 improvements, resevoir and forts. It will upgrade to either the Engineer Trooper or the Airborn Worker which means as soon as both is available the "vanilla" will disappear.

Are you sure that the AI actually upgrades them?
Are you maknig the existing worker obsolete?
What is the design goal between maknig basic workers unable to build advanced improvements? They're already tech-limited.
How is the AI supposed to intelligently choose between the Engineer and the Airborne worker?

My first impression was that there was long periods where the cities could only produce units. This way they can improve the land around them.
What game speed are you playing at? I find the mod works best at Epic speed, and at high difficulty levels you need to mostly be making units.

In my tests I would build a worker when I first placed the city and maybe bring another one with me. This made up a good start
Building a worker from a newly founded city is usually a poor decision, strategy wise. It takes a long time, and massively delays the city actually being useful.
I think I would find this system (workers die after making every improvement) very frustrating. It would also significantly weaken the AI at high levels, where they get a bonus worker to start the game with, and it would mean that pillage-raiding the AI would cripple them, since it would be very costly for them to replace pillaged tiles.
But obviously if you find this makes the game more fun for you, go for it.

3) It doesnt provide water directly, but from a pump (well) or irrigated area. I made them to symbolize the huge fremen watercaches that one day shall turn dune into a paradise. It seems from my initial tests that it does help speed up the terraforming.
Fremen water stores are represented by the Catchbasin and Reservoir buildings, and wells are represented by the groundwater resource and well improvements. What is the advantage to having a reservoir improvement instead? Doesn't this just become more difficult for the AI to use, and be weird if its available to non-Arrakis paradise civs?

It makes much more sense to me that these reduce water income in the short-term (it takes water to fill the reservoirs, and to then divert into terraforming activity.

I think I prefer the existing system, with some terraform spreading from lakes, which are fed from rainfall, and arise only after significant terraforming has occurred.
It should not be possible to rush terraforming too easily; otherwise its too easy as a victory condition. Going for the terraforming victory condition should require patience and consistent defensive play.

Now the category order will remain during the entire game making it alot easier to find whatever you're looking for.
THis sounds sensible to me.

5) I only played one game so far, but it seems like it speeds up terraforming. Dont know yet if it overdoes it.
I would suggest that terraforming doesn't really need to be any more rapid.

4) I just arranged the unit build icons by category, so the icons always will start out with melee units first, then guardsmen etc etc. The old system changed the position. F.ex the soldier (Guardsmen level 1) would be nr. 3 (after settler and worker) but when the Infantry (Guardsmen level 2) was available, it would be nr. 6 or 7 after f.ex the thopter. Now the category order will remain during the entire game making it alot easier to find whatever you're looking for.

I don't understand what you mean by "the old system changed the position". I agree that sorting unitinfos by unitcombat makes sense. If I have a chance, I will put that into 1.7. (You can see the "incremental patch discussion" thread for more details on release plans.) This also makes sense for technologies; I would re-order them in the file so that they are easier to find in the World Builder dialog. For buildings, I am not sure what difference the order makes; do you think there is any value in re-ordering buildings as well?

1) Are you sure that the AI actually upgrades them?
2) Are you maknig the existing worker obsolete?
3) What is the design goal between maknig basic workers unable to build advanced improvements? They're already tech-limited.
4) How is the AI supposed to intelligently choose between the Engineer and the Airborne worker?


5) What game speed are you playing at? I find the mod works best at Epic speed, and at high difficulty levels you need to mostly be making units.


6) Building a worker from a newly founded city is usually a poor decision, strategy wise. It takes a long time, and massively delays the city actually being useful.
I think I would find this system (workers die after making every improvement) very frustrating. It would also significantly weaken the AI at high levels, where they get a bonus worker to start the game with, and it would mean that pillage-raiding the AI would cripple them, since it would be very costly for them to replace pillaged tiles.
But obviously if you find this makes the game more fun for you, go for it.


7) Fremen water stores are represented by the Catchbasin and Reservoir buildings, and wells are represented by the groundwater resource and well improvements. What is the advantage to having a reservoir improvement instead? Doesn't this just become more difficult for the AI to use, and be weird if its available to non-Arrakis paradise civs?

It makes much more sense to me that these reduce water income in the short-term (it takes water to fill the reservoirs, and to then divert into terraforming activity.

I think I prefer the existing system, with some terraform spreading from lakes, which are fed from rainfall, and arise only after significant terraforming has occurred.
It should not be possible to rush terraforming too easily; otherwise its too easy as a victory condition. Going for the terraforming victory condition should require patience and consistent defensive play.

1) Yep, I saw several times the AI using an Engineer troop to upgrade to lvl 2 mines.
2) Yep, One thing that I missed in the game was a better worker. I made two instead ;)
3) Need to look at that again. Maybe its pointless since the worker goes obsolete.
4) Thats an experiment I will follow closely. I just need a way to turn off python exception popups. Though looking throu my INI it is already off :confused:
; Set to 1 for no python exception popups
HidePythonExceptions = 1
5) I only played one game, and didnt finish it. I played on standard map size with standard speed. It seemed a little bit too easy on Emperor, so when I did testing I went on Quick speed, Diety difficulty.
6) I did make the vanilla worker half price, so that should help on new cities. The main reason for doing so was that I had tons of workers doing nothing at one point. I could imagine that it wouldn't work out as well on slower (than normal) gamespeeds.
7) As I recall, (and I have to say its been MANY years since I read the books) the caches were scattered all around dune, not just in the cities. The main reason however to make them was however gameplay related. Since they dont provide an extreme amount of water, they wont be gameplay breaking, but can hopefully help out with those small cities that there seem to be alot of. I need to play a paradise strategy game before I can judge the effect.

I don't understand what you mean by "the old system changed the position". I agree that sorting unitinfos by unitcombat makes sense. If I have a chance, I will put that into 1.7. (You can see the "incremental patch discussion" thread for more details on release plans.) This also makes sense for technologies; I would re-order them in the file so that they are easier to find in the World Builder dialog. For buildings, I am not sure what difference the order makes; do you think there is any value in re-ordering buildings as well?

As I played through the game the first time, I had no experience what units did what. Sometimes when I wanted to build a guardsman, I would have to look through all the units before I could find it, coz their order would shift.
Example after organizing :
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=236706&stc=1&d=1260336559

Here the order is melee, guardsmen, vehicles, thopters, settler

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=236707&stc=1&d=1260336559

And here the order is maintained : melee, guardsmen, (siege), vehicles, (suspensors), thopters etc etc.

No matter at what stage of the game the order will be maintained, so its easier to find the right unit to build.

The last pic is from before I rearranged the order :

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=236708&stc=1&d=1260336559

where the order is : settler, special people, melee, guardsmen, hornets, thopter, guardsmen, vehicle, siege, suspensor etc etc.

after new units would be researched, this order would be completely different.

Hopefully a couple of pics can descripe what I cant in a 1000 words ;)

BTW Is it intentional that you dont get a settler on later eras starts?

Hopefully a couple of pics can descripe what I cant in a 1000 words ;)

OK, now I understand. The *units* always appear in the same order, there is no random shuffling or anything. But as units become available and obsolete, the unit *types* appear in a different order. I agree that sorting the unitinfos file similar to the way that the vanilla units appear will fix this. I will put this into version 1.7. Thanks for the suggestion!

1) Yep, I saw several times the AI using an Engineer troop to upgrade to lvl 2 mines.

Seeing an engineer is not the same as having the AI upgrade to it. With your 1-shot system, its relatively unimportant, but without that its very important.
Did you also see the airborne worker - you're sure the AI builds both?

2) IMO it shouldn't be too easy to get better workers; easy access to better workers devalues the serfdom civic, the Offworld Labor contract and the tech that increases worker build rates.
YMMV.

5) I highly, highly recommend Epic speed. The game plays much better at that speed.

6) Not really; for a new city to build even a half-price worker is still going to be ~9-10 turns (epic speed). The city would be much better off using its water income on growing.

7) Well, they're in sietches, rather than cities.
I think if there are water improvements that you can build anywhere, you lose the whole "water is scarce" feel. And the water reservoirs are NOT providing water for consumption; just the opposite. They are taknig water out of availability for human consumption, and using it to grow plants instead.

Its great for you to have a modmod where you make the game more like how you want, but in terms of the main mod, I'd recommend that we not adopt most of these.
Your unit type sorting is worth adopting, and we might eventually have some Spice Industry workers that build only harvesters but have a high movement speed and build speed.
I don't think the others would work well for our purposes.

BTW Is it intentional that you dont get a settler on later eras starts?
I've never tested later start eras, and I've never tested later eras even in vanilla except usnig Advanced Start.
I don't thnik the mod will play well with later starts, because of the issues in how religions are founded and spread.

Well, first of all: I didnt make a modmod to be implemented into the game. I just made it after playing a single game, but on reflection what I missed in that game. Later I realised that if I wanted bigger cities I could just go for the paradise civic (maybe write a Civic Text to explain whats the purpose of it)
secondly : I can only agree on most of what you are saying, (as I might have said a couple of times I only played the game once, so to argue the gameplay/balance with the developers would be stupid ;)) and while the resevoir cannot be built everywhere (only close to a well) then it might become overpowering, and as you said, remove the feeling of water being scarse. The suicede worker was a bad idea, that only worked out if playing on quick speeds, so I removed that part again. The new workers wont however take away the civics/techs that speed up improvementbuilding, but instead enhance them.
I usually (99%) of the time play Civ4 on Epic, and will someday play dune on epic as well, but right now I just want to try it out, and Normal speed seems a good choice for that.

7) Well, they're in sietches, rather than cities.
Well, only if you are Fremen. And even some fremen lived in cities (again its many many years ago I read the books. Maybe I should read them again. I certainly feel the urge after playing Dune Wars ;))

One thought I had, was instead of the filling of resevoirs, then this technique could be used for Harvesters to make them a litlle bit dynamic. (lvl 1-6 : 1. Empty 2. 1/4 full (+2 coins) 3. Half full (+4 coins) 4. 3/4 full (+6 coins) 5. Full (+8 coins) 6 Unloading (0 coins, empty, unpillageable graphic). (The +coins should ofcourse be balanced so it would give the same as 6 turns of "normal" harvesting)

By the way : what purpose does the Thumper promotion have?

One thought I had, was instead of the filling of resevoirs, then this technique could be used for Harvesters to make them a litlle bit dynamic. (lvl 1-6 : 1. Empty 2. 1/4 full (+2 coins) 3. Half full (+4 coins) 4. 3/4 full (+6 coins) 5. Full (+8 coins) 6 Unloading (0 coins, empty, unpillageable graphic). (The +coins should ofcourse be balanced so it would give the same as 6 turns of "normal" harvesting)

Actually, we tried this RTS mechanic a while ago. Please see this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8146053&postcount=238) and following. It did not feel much like Civ, it seemed to take too much micromanagement.

By the way : what purpose does the Thumper promotion have?

Today, it doesn't do anything. In 1.7, it acts like a "lightning rod". Worms are attracted to the unit with the promotion more than anything else and will attack that unit as soon as possible. But, when a worm attacks a unit with the promotion, it loses, and vanishes beneath the sand. So thumper units are immune to worms, and also having a thumper unit near other desert units like workers and harvesters will protect them.

(as I might have said a couple of times I only played the game once, so to argue the gameplay/balance with the developers would be stupid

Play a bit more, then come argue with us - we love a good design debate :-)

I only pointed out the weaknesses in some concepts because you clearly had some interesting ideas, some of which *are* worth including. David is already adopting your improved ordering.

Keep throwing out any other ideas you think are worth considering.