http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/images/greatgeneral.jpgWhile the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we are running a series of ten games called the Hall of Fame Challenge Series. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings of one of the games will be counted towards the Challenge.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/rules.php)BEFORE playing!

Settings:

Victory Condition: Conquest (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
Difficulty: Deity
Starting Era: Modern
Map Size: Standard
Map Type: Pangaea
Speed: Quick
Required: Aggressive AI
Must Not Be Checked: No Barbarians
Civ: Ottoman (Mehmed II)
Opponents: Must include America (Franklin Roosevelt), Ethiopia (Zara Yaqob), Germany (Frederick), India (Gandhi), Netherlands (Willem Van Oranje), Russia (Stalin)
Version: 3.19.002 or 3.19.003
Date: 1st January to 30th April 2010
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

Note the modern era, tanks are the way to go here. As taken from the suggestion thread by Sun Tzu Wu.

Tanks vs panzers? Better have some air. Or just voluntary vassal him.

Frederick is a peacemonger. He doesn't spam many tanks. Last time this played as a gauntlet, I included him and I think I killed a total of 2 panzers.

Chances are he won't have oil anyway. :mischief:

Ouch!!! :cry:

I have won my first attempt ... but it turned out as a Domination-victory :(
The last capitulation put me by 2% over the limit, and I didn't check that before hitting ENTER ...

Then again, it was my first, real Modern-start-game, and I've won it even if I made 3 mistakes: 2 false Civics at the start, getting a 10-turn-peace when my units were ready to strike on 3 different cities, and a wrong tech-path at the beginning ...


It's still my first Deity-victory, though :mischief:


EDIT: Oh, and Fred was no big problem. He was my neighbor, and had to capitulate while still building stuff like Settlers and Cavalry. I only had to kill 2 Panzers, IIRC. Everybody had Oil, though!

Ouch!!! :cry:

I have won my first attempt ... but it turned out as a Domination-victory :(

same for me
although I checked if I needed to gift back a city or 2:mad:

same for me
although I checked if I needed to gift back a city or 2:mad:

Well, sorry for you, but at least, I'm not alone, then :)


I'm wondering how WastinTime did his 1976-game, though? :eek:
By that time, I had vassalized only 2 AIs in that 1st attempt.

The RNG must have been on his side then. I have a 1985 AD win that went almost as fast as it could have (except Gandhi didn't put enough roads in his territory for me to rush by as I vassaled him). Also, Fredrick was the last guy, so I settled for ICBMs everywhere to finish off. Getting 9 fewer turns seems really, really hard (27 fewer tanks, for instance).

The RNG doesn't really play a part in this challenge. I just made tanks as fast a possible (3 every turn starting around turn 16 I think). By the end, I had twice as many tanks as I needed. It should be winnable in 40 turns.

Maybe my map was more compact? You need to railroad everywhere as you go.

Well, I finally managed to win this as a Conquest-victory :)

The date is 2002AD though, so nowhere near WastinTime or narri's victories.


I just made tanks as fast a possible (3 every turn starting around turn 12 I think). By the end, I had twice as many tanks as I needed.

I also had too many tanks at the end, but I got started much too slow.
Cities build workers first, 2/1/1, to have 2 per city. Then factory, power plant, barracks, health-buildings :mischief:, Tanks, Tanks, Tanks ...


I DOWed the 1st AI 10 turns later than you did and 9 turns later than narri :eek:
You had won the game when I DOWed my 2nd AI; narri had won when I DOWed my 3rd AI :D

Even if I hadn't built those unnecessary health-buildings, I don't think I would have been able to DOW that much earlier.


Interesting to see that none of us 3 adopted the same Civics ;)

same for me
although I checked if I needed to gift back a city or 2:mad:

I nearly failed again. :crazyeye:
Probably, you made the mistake I avoided just before hitting ENTER.

What I did:
- accept capitulation of the last AI and exceed the land limit
- liberate enough cities to pass under the limit again
- avoid border-popping in all cities
- liberate all cities that are 1 turn away from coming out of revolt

And that last action nearly gave me a Domination-win again, because liberated cities get all their original tiles back immediately. This put me some 15-20 tiles above the limit again :eek:

I made a couple artillery. That helped my first few tanks with low experience win. However, those units were mostly a waste since they moved too slowly.

And I built the Pentagon.

I think I only built 1 worker instead of 4, but you might have the better strategy there. Those are a good investment

My first attempt last night, I built 3 workers first thing, and it didn't feel like enough - improvements were behind growth, especially hooking up health and happy.

@ChrisFromLux, I think a hospital is definitely a good investment here, assuming you need it in the given city to hit tank/turn.

Did you guys get auto-spread? I was only getting the Theo bonus in one city, which kinda sucks.

Did you guys get auto-spread? I was only getting the Theo bonus in one city, which kinda sucks.

No, That's why I start in Org. Rel. To make missionaries.

I got a 1995 victory, usedtheo straight away, to get some autospread, but it only works in "your" cities.
however I got level 4 tanks in all 3 original cities quite soon (vassalage pentagon, theo + barracks+1 settled GG)

the thing is I never managed 1 tank per turn in those cities.

Second try, ended up 1 turn short of the lead (1978 AD - 45 turns). Started using WastinTime's strategy, but with more workers to take advantage of Serfdom. Most wars ended up 2 or 3 turns max with the massive tank SoD, a lot cleaner than last time. Nukes helped kick Stalin, the last holdout (who surprisingly didn't make many units anyway).

Too bad the other games in this series aren't as straightforward as tank, tank, tank, tank...

I think I only built 1 worker instead of 4, but you might have the better strategy there. Those are a good investment

Yes, I am quite sure they are. There are so many Workshops, Lumbermills and Railroads to build in your 3 cities, to get these Tanks rolling.

Later, they can convert those stupid AI-cottages and farms into workshops as well, as with Capitulations, you won't get many workers from the AI.


@ChrisFromLux, I think a hospital is definitely a good investment here, assuming you need it in the given city to hit tank/turn.

I'm not so sure anymore. IIRC, they take ~3 turns to build in your still-underdevelopped cities. In those 3x3 turns, you could probably build another 5 Tanks and start attacking earlier.


Did you guys get auto-spread? I was only getting the Theo bonus in one city, which kinda sucks.

IIRC, I didn't get any auto-spread. But I ignored Religion completely and immediately started in Free Religion.


No, That's why I start in Org. Rel. To make missionaries.

Are you sure that is worth it?

'Lose' 2 turns in a city to build 2 missionaries, plus another full turn in anarchy for switching back to Theocracy, only to start with 7XP-Tanks instead of 5XP-Tanks (if you run Vassalage)? You still have to win 2-3 battles to earn another promotion.

Or did you immediately run an Engineer to get a Golden Age and switch for free?

If you're getting tank/turn, why exactly do you need level 4 tanks? I'd imagine OR + vassalage would help to get the factory/power set up, and from there it'd just be unit production, with little regard for experience past the useful 5 xp threshold.

I want to win the AW game first, but I imagine I'm going to start off just spamming 5 xp tanks. Wastintime even said he had more than he needed by the end, which implies the bottlenecks are 1) setting up the production and 2) actually getting them to the enemy.

If you're getting tank/turn, why exactly do you need level 4 tanks? I'd imagine OR + vassalage would help to get the factory/power set up, and from there it'd just be unit production, with little regard for experience past the useful 5 xp threshold.

I want to win the AW game first, but I imagine I'm going to start off just spamming 5 xp tanks. Wastintime even said he had more than he needed by the end, which implies the bottlenecks are 1) setting up the production and 2) actually getting them to the enemy.

Are you replying to my post? :confused:

I was wondering why WastinTime built missionaries and adopted Org. Rel. first ...
I went with Free Religion right from the start, and built 5XP-Tanks due to Vassalage and Barracks. The first 2 Great Generals were used to create 2 Super-Medic-Explorers ...

When you settle your first cities, you have some infrastructure to build before you switch to tanks full time. OR adds 25% to your hammers towards these buildings, which saves setup time.

I don't see how that falls behind some extra :) in captured cities and irrelevant research.

OR doesn't do anything for buildings because you don't have a religion yet. It's only for Missionaries.

The missionaries can be made before Pentagon + Theoc kicks in, so you aren't making tanks yet anyway.

Yes Chris, I use a golden age to save 2 turns (religion change + civics change). It also gets those first few tanks out at 1/turn.

I roll out 9xp tanks. That way they get to promote and heal on their first attack.

TMIT: The 10xp tanks are very desirable. Odds of winning go up dramatically. That's why I used Artillery for the first few attacks. Otherwise I'd have lost many of those 9xp tanks. Yes, there are a few too many tanks by the end, but slow part is the first couple AI.

I tried going for vassalge + theo straight away, and got the pentagon, so I had 9 XP tanks soon enough, but I don't know how to get the hammers early enough.

Also, Gandhi is harder to capitulate than one would think.

With Police State + Forge + Factory + Power (Coal) + State Prop, you need 84/2.35 = 35.74 base hammers. Practically speaking, 34 or 35 is totally fine because winning this challenge is a 40 turn affair, so you'd get a 2-turn tank maybe once. That's about 3.8-4 base hammers a pop right after the GA is done (later it will be easy to get the required hammers with more pop). This implies rivers are excellent (Levee), with watermills and workshops galore (though some lumbermills/mines/farms are needed to keep health/pop up).

My current plans are:
1) Roll for Oil and Coal with rivers in the vicinity to settle at. Oil doesn't need to be in the BFC of any of your cities necessarily (but you do need rails ASAP), because you only need to Oil have when you start tanks (so ring 3 of capital may work depending on timing).
2) Revolt US+Buero+Serfdom+Merc+OR on turn 0 before any moves. US for rushbuy whatever (usually to speed workers or missionary 1 turn where needed). Serfdom really cuts down on time to build things (especially anything in floodplain/desert tiles and mills/shops). Merc gives a free engineer to get most of Pentagon done with a GE. OR for spreading religion on turn 6 when the religions are given out. If you get a lucky autospread and you have 1 too many missionaries, spread to a city in your first target.
3) The AI start with 4 settlers each, but most of them don't find places for them as quickly as you do. Get good real estate. Ideally the first few AI's cities won't be on hills.
4) First few turns you settle and get some workers. I still haven't found the sweet spot yet between too many and too few (currently build 3 workers in cap, 2 in second city and 1 in the city that gets the religion).
5) Capital should run Engineer as free spec. After workers, its Factory, Coal Plant, Levee in some order. Factory allows more engineers, put 2 or 3 as feasible.
6) Engineer in cap builds 80% of Pentagon, cap finishes it off. Second GP can be from either of the other two cities (the more food rich one). Run anything at all, just get that great person, which will be used for GA.
At start of GA revolt to Police State, Vassalage, Theocracy, State Property, leave Serfdom alone. At the last turn of the GA, switch to Caste System to get the +1 hammer in workshops.
7) Other 2 cities have workers/missionaries, followed by Factory,Coal Plant, Levee, then Barracks, then "*Tank".
8) 0% research until the GA begins (or at last turn, if you keep US until then). You won't get much research to start anyways.

You get 9 or 12 tanks (most have 9XP), and look for first target next to you (good ones are cities you can strike at the same turn as DoW, and those that envelop a third rival to make the next war quicker). Most defenders are Marines and Infantry when you DoW. Anti-Tanks come out turn 2 or 3 of the war (meaning you must strike swiftly). Tanks can also be there if your opponent is blessed with oil.

The most important thing is to strike quickly with overwhelming numbers. Ideally the war is over the turn after you DoW because your target wants to capitulate.

Research towards Rocketry in case anyone builds Manhattan. Prioritize Uranium targets if this looks like it will happen. You may end up getting Manhattan yourself and replacing the "*Tank" with "*ICBM" to get rid of the last few holdout cities.

Yes Chris, I use a golden age to save 2 turns (religion change + civics change). It also gets those first few tanks out at 1/turn.

OK, thanks.


I tried going for vassalge + theo straight away, and got the pentagon, so I had 9 XP tanks soon enough, but I don't know how to get the hammers early enough.

Ahem, how do you get your religion to spread if you go Theocracy right away?

That was a mistake I made in my first game (Domination-win), ignoring I couldn't build any missionaries ...


Also, Gandhi is harder to capitulate than one would think.

Strange. In my first game, he capitulated after 3 turns, IIRC, and in the second game, he capitulated after the first turn.


Stalin, OTOH, had to be completely destroyed in both games! :mad:

In the first game, he had only Moscow left with some 6 units, and he still refused to capitulate. I went on with the next AI, and sent my Vassals to attack Moscow, and after a few turns, he was finally willing to accept his faith.

In the second game, he was down to 1 small coastal city, I destroyed all but 1 defender (2 unlucky losses :(), but he still didn't capitulate that turn. Next turn, when I could have completely wiped him out, he was finally willing to give in ...


My current plans are:

Thanks, narri!

In fact, you (and WastinTime) don't start too much different than I did, except for that clever Civic-swap with a GA at the beginning (religion and theocracy included), and building the Pentagon.

But, those must really have a huge impact, as there are 24/25 turns between our finish-dates! Some turns can be explained because you are simply better than me, but that can't be too many in this setup ...


But another question: In my first attempt, I went Caste System from the beginning; but after ~15-20 turns, I had huge happiness problems for not having Emancipation, so I had to switch?!?

But another question: In my first attempt, I went Caste System from the beginning; but after ~15-20 turns, I had huge happiness problems for not having Emancipation, so I had to switch?!?

You don't really need any research so bump up the culture slider.

This setting is a well explored multiplayer setting.

there is a specific optimal plan which is as follows.

Civics:
First: US (to rush buy workers), Bureocracy, serfdom, merchandilism, organized

Goal is to have 9-10 workers at the beggining improve land, spread religion build barracks and factory in every city and then switch to non stop tanks (every city should make a tank a turn or at worst 2 tanks every 3 turns). In qucick speed directly building improvements over forests saves worker turns so it is better to do that rather than chop first.

This initial stage should not be more than 10 turns max.

After initial stage switch to: Police state, bureocracy, caste system, state property and theocracy

Vassalage is not needed but you could go for it if capital has enough production.

Questions are:
1. do you go for 4th settler? In theory you should as it could be done in 1 turn with syncronized chops in capital. The extra city will pay off fast.

Improvements should be food resources and then mines and workshops everywhere (even on horse for example)

You should not spend more than 1 turn building worker or settler in cities, synchronizing chops in order to get everything in 1 turn is important

The first great person should be used for golden age for civic switches and religion in theory. So this great person you should get by turn 10.

So with 4 cities making 6 tanks every 2 turns, you should have 18 tanks in 6 turns by turn 14 or something

with plenty of worker to rail in a couple of turns first opponent will be gone..no way the ai will have anything in 15 turns to defend 18 CR2 tanks.

Then it should be a matter of 3-4 turns for every other ai.

So in theory around 35 turns should be the optimal for this...unless map placement helps and you can take care of multiple ai's at once in which case it it could drop to 30 turns or less

I will definatelly give this a try when I get some time...

This setting is a well explored multiplayer setting.

there is a specific optimal plan which is as follows.

...

It will be interesting to see how that goes for you. I just followed the steps elucidated by Narri above, and got a 1985 finish. My first Deity win on anything but seriously nerfed Tiny/duel maps.

I think I could have finished circa 1965AD or so, if I (a) opened multiple fronts earlier, (b) Rooseveldt would capitulate (he was last victim and had to be fully annihilated!), and (c) I saw Roosi sneak a new city into razed Indian territory -- which alone added 3 turns of travel to get there.

I did a lot of sub-optimal warring... razed a city I should have kept just to keep Ethiopian culture from slowing my supply lines- which again added at least a couple turns to my victory.

I'm not planning to play this again, though. My goal is just to qualify for the Series by completing each game, with little regard to my placing until that is accomplished (if possible).

I've already learned a LOT about how to improve my games. These games are very challenging for me and require that I really push myself to get better. As they say at McDonald's, I'm Lovin' it!

To the Series creators: :goodjob::goodjob::goodjob: and :thanx:

Thanks also to all who share their strategies and thoughts on each game. It doesn't seem as impossible as I first believed (2 down, 8 to go). :love:

Questions are:
1. do you go for 4th settler? In theory you should as it could be done in 1 turn with syncronized chops in capital. The extra city will pay off fast.


This was a good plan in vanilla Civ. I don't think it works in BTS. Settlers are too expensive in late era starts.

This was a good plan in vanilla Civ. I don't think it works in BTS. Settlers are too expensive in late era starts.

Agreed, the cost to cash rush a settller is huge compared to the alternatives of factory/coal plant/tank you could be building.

This was a good plan in vanilla Civ. I don't think it works in BTS. Settlers are too expensive in late era starts.


Firm agreement with WastinTime's comments above:

It's much cheaper to lose a Tank or two capturing an enemy City than founding your own.

Settlers are 274H in Modern Quick BtS.

Noe that Settlers are only 65H in Modern Quick Warlords (probably the same in Vanilla Civ4).

Sun Tzu Wu

In general yes settlers are very expensive in BTS so compared to vanilla it is not worth it.

BUT, if the capital has many chops what do you do with them? It is common to get something like 10 forests in capital, you can use 2-3 for factory and workers but the rest are not needed for units as you can make 1 turn tanks in capital without chops.

So what do you do with them? Put them in some wonder? 5 chops will give you settler in 1 turn. So if there is a good city spot near by then after workers factory and barracks it might be worth it to build wealth for a turn or 2 while the chops gather and you grow and then make 1 turn settler.

Of course all that is because you are not spiritual, because if you were spiritual you would switch to religion and theocracy turn 7 and start pumping 2 promo tanks turn 7, thus use the chops for tanks.

Now as it is to not waste 2 turns in anarchy you have to wait for great person, which will not come before turn 12 or something....That is 5 turns more during which you have to decide where capital chops go...do you really need the extra 2 exp from pentagon? Or will an extra city pay off better?

I don't know about you, Indiansmoke, but I can get 2 great people out by turn 12. Golden Age turn 7 or 8, Pentagon turn 11 or 12. Change religion on turn 8. Civics turn 12 or 13

I don't know about you, Indiansmoke, but I can get 2 great people out by turn 12. Golden Age turn 7 or 8, Pentagon turn 11 or 12. Change religion on turn 8. Civics turn 12 or 13

WOW, with how many workers?

I only make 2-3 workers. I just finished that game in 34 turns! 1956 AD.

There's another strong strategy that no has mentioned. Hint: What is the best great person under these circumstances and how do you get a lot of him?

There's another strong strategy that no has mentioned. Hint: What is the best great person under these circumstances and how do you get a lot of him?

Engineers, industrial park?

Hint: What is the best great person under these circumstances and how do you get a lot of him?

Great Generals, killing stuff :confused:

Great Generals, killing stuff :confused:


Killing military units inside one's Cultural Boundary provides +100% Great General Points.

However, Great Engineers are probably more important than Great Generals in this Challenge. The Tanks are already highly promoted with Barracks, Vassalage, Theocracy and The Pentagon and they either sustain a lot (disband) or little damage. So Medic 3 Warlords aren't really that valueable. Also, C2CR3 Warlord Tanks can't kill that much better than CR3 Tanks (1 more XP needed after freshly built). The biggest factor is the Tanks can be built faster than they can be utilized.

Maybe Great Generals could win this Game a turn earlier, but I have my doubts. It's far more important to generate Great Engineers as quickly as possible very early in the Game.

Just my two cents worth,

Sun Tzu Wu

3 Great Generals allows 10XP (ie CR3) tanks out of your three production cities, this makes a big difference.

EDIT: Is this right, 3xp for barracks, 2 for theocracy and 2 for vassalage, 2 for GG only makes 9, if not you need 6 for CR3 out of the gate, alot harder.

1 GE for Pentagon, 1 (of any kind) for a Golden Age, do you need another (Ironworks in a poor production city maybe), this can be done pretty easily in every situation.

I'd say getting 3 GGs as quick as can be does make a difference but I'm sure I'm missing something, which is probably why I find these types of games very hard and frustrating (haven't attempted it yet) :lol:

There's another strong strategy that no has mentioned. Hint: What is the best great person under these circumstances and how do you get a lot of him?


Great Artists!

Great Artist Farm!

Now, how does a Great Artist help Win a War? When you can answer that, you just may have a viable strategy. Or you may determine that Great Artists are just too expensive for their War role.

Sun Tzu Wu

There's another strong strategy that no has mentioned. Hint: What is the best great person under these circumstances and how do you get a lot of him?

Great Prophet?-- Preach em to death?
Great Artists?-- Culture bombs?
Great Scientists?-- Beat them all at the science fair?
Great Engineers?-- Heck Yeah.
Great Generals?-- Nice, but too few to slow.

Great Merchants?-- Trade missions/Cash/USuff/CasteSys/Vassalage/Mercantilism/Theocracy-- Eh, maybe.

Great Artists!

Great Artist Farm!

Now, how does a Great Artist help Win a War? When you can answer that, you just may have a viable strategy. Or you may determine that Great Artists are just too expensive for their War role.

Sun Tzu Wu
This is what I think. They take cities immediately out of resistance to contribute to the cause closer to the front. It takes some time to get National Park up and running though.

Great Artists!

Great Artist Farm!

Now, how does a Great Artist help Win a War? When you can answer that, you just may have a viable strategy. Or you may determine that Great Artists are just too expensive for their War role.

Sun Tzu Wu

Hmmm, culture bombs in captured cities would extend your territories (maybe) to the walls of enemy cities, allowing quicker access to their capture but would you risk going domination instead :confused:

well, medic generals aren't that great - but what about GG commando tanks? or does the AI hold it's rear cities strong enough that it doesn't help?

great spies? spies are pretty good, collapsing the culture defense.

well, medic generals aren't that great - but what about GG commando tanks? or does the AI hold it's rear cities strong enough that it doesn't help?

great spies? spies are pretty good, collapsing the culture defense.
You cant get enough great generals to put together a squad of commando tanks.

What is the formula for the AI capitulating? Capital plus one city?

What is the formula for the AI capitulating? Capital plus one city?

I think it has to do with power rating difference. Nothing will drop their power like losing a capitol... but if they are big enough, you'll need to take far more than two.

This is why they never seem to want to capitulate when you most need them to do so (i.e. when your offensive stack is starting to thin out).

wow that was fun.

Remember the Civ III days, when you'd get a stack of Mounted Warriors or Knights or Cavs and just roam around, conquering all?

This was the equivalent.

For anyone who has been sick of dragging cats around to take the cities which are rightfully yours... this challenge is the answer.

Tanks. Lots and lots of tanks. I built 103, lost 55. Had a grand ole' time!!

It's a current middle of the road effort - nothing special... but fun fun fun.

And my first deity win ;)

Anyone who is worried about this... try it. Follow the advice of those before you and go kill people. Don't be afraid of the dreaded panzers - he had oil in my game, but I only faced 4 before he capitulated and then the panzers were on my side.

And my first deity win ;)


Congratulations!


Anyone who is worried about this... try it. Follow the advice of those before you and go kill people. Don't be afraid of the dreaded panzers - he had oil in my game, but I only faced 4 before he capitulated and then the panzers were on my side.


Brief Description of a Winning Strategy:

Just set Research to 0, build up Hammer Tiles and Hammer multipliers in all Cities, build or capture The Pentagon (not needed, but provides close to an extra promotion). Set Civics to Universal Suffrage, Bureaucracy/Vassalage, Serfdom, Mercantilism, Organized Religion/Theocracy. Optionally start with Bureaucracy and Organized Religion and switch to Vassalage and Theocracy in the Tank building phase. With Barracks, Vassalage, Theocracy and The Pentagon, each unit will start with 9 experience points, just 1 short of three promotions (any unit that survives its first battle should be able to get its third promotion). Build an oil well, connect it, and spam Tanks. Capture an AI's Cities until they Capitulate and repeat; take on 2 or more AI at the same time when Tank numbers are sufficient and Tank production rate remains > Tank loss rate. Keep going until Conquest is achieved. Give poor production Cities to your Vassals to avoid Domination. Enjoy your Conquest and your Win!

Sun Tzu Wu

Well got this one out of the way thankfully, 1888AD. Over the hump now, 6 down and only 4 to go!!!

Well got this one out of the way thankfully, 1888AD. Over the hump now, 6 down and only 4 to go!!!
You killed em all on turn one, thats impressive :lol:!

This game is super frustrating to get in under 34 turns. You can even kill a close AI with just your starting marines and still no go. Always a turn or two short when the AI wont capitulate. I think it because you lose too many tanks on hilled cities/antitank/40% culture in the end. Could fighters do the trick on these type cities(3 scientists?)?

Oops, meant 1988. A whole 100 turns.

Finally got 34 turns. The only problem is I dont know which original save file is correct; anyone know how to figure that out besides opening it up?

Anyways, killed Roosevelt on T6 and built 2 settlers so I had 6 cities up and running pretty early. Conquered Zara close by and then went far to near. Nuclear plants cost a bit more but that health is so precious to get up to size 11 or so to do one turn tanks.

did you create it using mapfinder? There should be a image file of it.

What you could do, I suppose, is copy the possible start files elsewhere and then open those, see which is the original.

Finally got 34 turns. The only problem is I dont know which original save file is correct; anyone know how to figure that out besides opening it up?You can open it. We won't get confused. ;)

did you create it using mapfinder? There should be a image file of it.

What you could do, I suppose, is copy the possible start files elsewhere and then open those, see which is the original.
I use vista so no map images without running in windowed mode (ugh). Found the save though :).

Map Finder isn't as useful in this particular set-up in any case, I was just regenerating until I saw oil, and then looking at the land available as to its suitability for plenty of hammers.

I just used MF to look for coal and oil; I'm thinking it is better to look for forests >12, uranium, and oil.

This was a pretty fun game to play, made some pretty terrible errors though when I forgot to change all my civics during the golden age and didn't spot I had no religion for about 30 turns.
So I think I may replay this one I'm pretty sure I can win quicker than I did even though I suck at warmongering. I still can't see how anyone managed to win in 30 turns though.

@Narri: thanks for posting your plan, would have taken me a lot longer without it

1950 AD finish.

Thanks to killercane and WastinTime for their saves, which I studied before playing. I should have read this thread too (didn't think of it at first), because I would have conducted my conquest path differently if I had realized that getting the latter AIs to vassalize was complicated.

My map:
No need for MapFinder on this game. I just regened a couple times looking for something decent. I wanted oil nearby to build KC's quick tank to capture the first AI, if possible. I also wanted forests and enough grassland for the workshops, and a food resource of course. As it turned out, I'd say my map was close to ideal, for these reasons:
1. I settled all three cities in the NW corner along a river travelling SE, toward all the AIs.
2. I had lots of space, while four of the AIs were cramped far to the east. This limited their expansion.
3. Roosy was very close. For some reason, he's extra slow to settle, maybe because he wants Seal escorts. Both KC and I wiped him out with one capture.

A few mistakes:
I was a little late on several tactics, but not too late. I figured out that OrgRel+UnivSuff was for cash rushing missionaries in 1t a couple turns after I got Hinduism, but before I started the GA. My first GP was a few turns later than optimum, because it didn't occur to me how important that was till about T8 (same time I started cash-rushing the misses). My other strategic mistake was to not attack Zara much sooner (he was isolated from all the other AIs to the south of me). This was a mistake because it's easier to get late AIs to vassalize if you kill off some AIs completely.

Strategy points to add to what all of you have discussed:
1. Key strategy for fastest conquest: Every city builds all units/buildings in ONE TURN if possible.

Comment: This is not just about workers in 1t to allow growth. This is about a game in which it's over in 30 turns!?! If you have 30t*3 cities, that's 90 units/buildings max (unless you run Nationhood). That's not much stuff to win with.

2. Set your finish goal. (Mine was way faster than the best to-date... :))

3. Minimize everything.

Comment: This is the Gnejs Principle. Think twice before you build anything or do anything. Do you have time to build it? Will it help you finish faster? Is there another way to get what you want faster, cheaper or better?

For example, do I want to build a settler? Isn't it better to rush the first AI, if I want another production city? That kills two birds with one stone.

Do I need the Pentagon? Well, I'm going to spam my religion for the ORgRel production bonus anyway, so I could just get those 2XP from Theocracy. With Vassalage, I have 7XP. Most of my battles started with my tanks fighting with about 60-80% odds, giving 3XP. That means they were at 10XP with each win. They never got to 17XP. My conclusion: No Pentagon.

4. Run Serfdom the entire game. (!?)

Comment: I realized that my workshops simply didn't need the CS hammer. Far more important to me was the ability to build those railroads and chop those forests in 1t. Now, I didn't start as fast as Indiansmoke proposes, so I don't know if that would make a difference, but I doubt it, because the missing hammers before the cities mature could come from a couple of chops. In general, my production cities had some outrageous amount of hammer overflow non-stop. (So this is another example of thinking minimally.)

5. Buy maps asap.

Comment: Critical for capturing the first AI and for planning the overall campaign.

6. Move the three marine together straight toward your first target.

Comment: You're guessing at first, but their primary mission is to capture the nearest city, or at least some workers. Think about it. Those semi-useless marines have no other use in this game, other than garrisoning your cities. These also means that your two explorers have two early missions, scouting the land for your 2nd and 3rd cities and meeting your neighbors asap so you can buy maps and move your marines there. :rotfl:

7. Capital builds workers, 1 per turn, until you have the 5th developed tile for your 5th citizen.
8. Connect coal and oil asap.

Comments: At Quick speed, Modern Age, you want to be able to start building railroads yesterday. If you also want to build the quick tank (KC's gambit), you need the oil. In any case, when that tank is built on around T6-T7, it should arrive at your target's front door, by rail, in 1t, with the 3 marines already waiting. You need lots of workers for all that work.

9. Only build workers in your capital.

Comment: Your secondary cities immediately go RAX-factory-plant-levee. They don't get the BUreau production bonus. THey don't have time for anything else, except the 2-3 missionaries you cash rush.

10. Avoid battle defeats, and kill off AIs completely or vassalize them with minimal damage.

Comments: There seem to be two main factors in vassalization: power and losses. If the AI is small, you want to kill him off completely, if possible. Leaving him in the game lowers the average power of all players, making other AIs feel more powerful and less likely to vassalize. If your target is big with lots of power, then you want to harm him minimally but still get him to capitulate. That means attack his 20%/plains cities and try to not have a single loss. A few early airships are better than artillery, because they don't die (=defeat), but you need to have a city within range to base them there. I built a couple artillery instead, but luckily decided not to use them against Stalin (I didn't know the mechanics at that point--I was lucky).

Those are my observations.

-------------------

I also thought about the idea of spamming some GAs for instant cities, but I didn't think of it till T8 and it was too late. I did capture a city or two, fully equipped with factories/plants/levees and lots of people. It would mean sacrificing the Theocracy 2XP. That hurts, because those CRIII tanks were significantly better than the CRII. All in all, my guess is that when you start pulling the victory date back into the 20s, you're not thinking about new production cities. You're thinking about getting your 3 tanks per turn started sooner and optimizing your vassalization path.

1950 AD finish.


Congratulations!

After you fix those mistakes and optimize your Cities and build a few early GAs, you should be able pull in a nice 1944 AD Win, right? ;)

Maybe, one could capture more Workers, build a few less Workers and have the Capital build something else early on?

Bureaucracy and the Expansive trait where a nice combo for building Workers, eh?

Very nice write up!

Sun Tzu Wu

After you fix those mistakes and optimize your Cities and build a few early GAs, you should be able pull in a nice 1944 AD Win, right? ;)

Maybe, one could capture more Workers, build a few less Workers and have the Capital build something else early on?

Bureaucracy and the Expansive trait where a nice combo for building Workers, eh?Thanks, Sun! :)

I surely thought I was going to win in the 20s this time, so maybe. Capturing more workers in the first five turns seems pretty hard, but a really lucky map might do it. Or maybe playing with more AIs, but then you've got a major headache at the end. Yes, building wkrs one per turn is awesome.

Are you going to try again?

Are you going to try again?


Actually, I've simply been a spectator in this Challenge series.

Although this particular Challenge was my suggestion, I suspect that I'll remain a spectator, even for this Challenge.

Great game, LowtherCastle!

Sun Tzu Wu

Well, there you go everyone.
As a generous favour to you all, I have submitted . . . by far the worst victory in this Challenge!! :king:
(I will expect special gratitude from ChrisFromLUx - whose own entry now looks comfortably mid-table)

I actually feel quite pleased, and have a small sense of pride at completing my first win at Deity level - that is not a Religious victory. And this from someone whose military prowess is (how shall I put it) somewhat less than terrifying. Let me face it, my warmongering has raised a few laughs in the past. But no longer. I conquered the world at Deity :D

Well, there you go everyone.
As a generous favour to you all, I have submitted . . . by far the worst victory in this Challenge!! :king:
(I will expect special gratitude from ChrisFromLUx - whose own entry now looks comfortably mid-table)

I actually feel quite pleased, and have a small sense of pride at completing my first win at Deity level - that is not a Religious victory. And this from someone whose military prowess is (how shall I put it) somewhat less than terrifying. Let me face it, my warmongering has raised a few laughs in the past. But no longer. I conquered the world at Deity :D


Any Win at Deity with Any Settings is an achievement you can be proud of!

Congratulations!

Don't forget, you have beat anyone who tries and yet fails to submit a Game. This fact won't show up in the results, but it should be taken under consideration, especially at the Deity difficulty level.

--- Challenge-I-9 ---

I see that you haven't tried Challenge-I-9. A nice gentle introduction to a Quechua rush ending in a Space Colony win. That would be the next step in Deity level rushing within this Challenge Series (actually the only other Deity Challenge in Series I). It's the next easiest Deity rush (after #10's Tank rush) to pull off. Give it a try; you may give up in frustration, but I assure you that you will be better for the experience.

--- Deity Conquest, Marathon Speed, Duel Map with a single Opponent ---

Actually, it may be better to just try a Deity Conquest, Marathon Speed, Duel Map with a single Opponent. Just settle on a Plains Hill next to a Plains Hill Forest and spam a bunch of Quechuas (4-6) and take the AI's Capital City, heal, reinforce and take the AI's secondary City for the Conquest Win. Don't bother with a Barracks. Half your Quchuas will die in the attack on the Capital City. Most of the others will usually get enough experience for 1-2 promotions. Your Quechuas start with a free Combat I promotion, so promote one to Medic I (one that's earned just one promotion) and all the others that survive should be promoted to Cover and City Raider I for any second earned promotion. Just be sure not to select Aggressive AI, an AI Opponent with Protective, Aggressive or Creative traits, or an AI Opponent that likes to build up its military, although few AI Leaders will be able to resist a Quechua rush when done early enough and done with sufficient numbers of Quechuas. Gandhi would be the best Opponent to start with -- he will be less inclined to build more Archers. Be sure to attack the AI Capital on a diagonal, so the City can be taken the turn right after the declaration of War. If the AI Capital has three rings of Culture (Defense 40), you have delayed the rush too long and probably should abandon the attempt. Also, if the AI founds a Religion, consider attacking the Holy City first, since its Culture grows at 5 Cpt versus the Capital's 2 Cpt. Thus, Gandhi may not be such a good Opponent, if he founds a Religion before your Quechua rush is well under way. Elizabeth, Fredrick, Ramesses II (maybe), and Roosevelt may be better Opponents that fit all the qualifications mentioned above.

Sun Tzu Wu

(I will expect special gratitude from ChrisFromLUx - whose own entry now looks comfortably mid-table)

There you go: Thank you, AgedOne, for 'stealing' my last place! :D

Congratulations on your Deity-Conquest-victory, though! Like Sun Tzu Wu already said, not everybody manages to win that challenge.

I myself will try to improve my result in this game a little bit, once I have dominated in game 5. A victory in the 1980s will be the goal ... and then, I'll call it a challenge!

Well, there you go everyone.
As a generous favour to you all, I have submitted . . . by far the worst victory in this Challenge!! :king:
(I will expect special gratitude from ChrisFromLUx - whose own entry now looks comfortably mid-table)

I actually feel quite pleased, and have a small sense of pride at completing my first win at Deity level - that is not a Religious victory. And this from someone whose military prowess is (how shall I put it) somewhat less than terrifying. Let me face it, my warmongering has raised a few laughs in the past. But no longer. I conquered the world at Deity :D

Congratulations! Its a big confidence builder isn't it?

Just getting a victory in these games is plenty of challenge. Enjoy!

Any Win at Deity with Any Settings is an achievement you can be proud of!
...
Don't forget, you have beat anyone who tries and yet fails to submit a Game.
Absolutely! You said it Sun Tzu Wu. I will try to maintain a very balanced view, and neither exaggerate my own achievement nor knock it down without due reason.

I see that you haven't tried Challenge-I-9.
I read your comments with interest. I can't remember ever using the infamous Quechua rush. Obviously, it isn't allowed in most HoF games anyway. I think there might be time before this one draws to a finish. I would like to get at least a submission in more than half of the games in this challenge.


...Thank you, AgedOne, for 'stealing' my last place! :D
... *chuckle* Yes. You're welcome. I think...

I myself will try to improve my result in this game a little bit, once I have dominated in game 5.
Yes, Funny, but I haven't had much luck in a few attempts to improve on this one. Somehow I haven't been able to get the same start. Possibly, in trying to cut a few turns at the start I have attacked when still just under-powered. All you need is a couple of bad rolls on the RNG and the game suddenly looks impossible. Then I had another where Stalin (again my first opponent) just would not capitulate, and then put up an impressive defence of his last city. It just lost me too much time. Strange, the way it goes.

Congratulations! Its a big confidence builder isn't it?

Just getting a victory in these games is plenty of challenge. Enjoy!
Cheers! I can just remember that around the end of 2008 I considered myself a Monarch-level player, and had certainly never beated Deity in any kind of game. Now I've got my EQM at Emperor, and a couple of Deity wins. It's all progress!

Yes, Funny, but I haven't had much luck in a few attempts to improve on this one. Somehow I haven't been able to get the same start. Possibly, in trying to cut a few turns at the start I have attacked when still just under-powered. All you need is a couple of bad rolls on the RNG and the game suddenly looks impossible.

Hah, there it is ... I finished in 1989AD!

10th place so far, but a lot better than my first 2002AD-finish.

Thanks to everyone in this thread for sharing their thoughts, which allowed me to improve my opening turns a lot! :goodjob:


@AgedOne: sorry for leaving you alone in the 2000AD's :blush:

Lowercastle is a maschine!

Really a fantastic date LC. Couldnt hope to beat that one. You really have to get a great map and play perfectly with so few moves.

Really a fantastic date LC. Couldnt hope to beat that one. You really have to get a great map and play perfectly with so few moves.Thanks. I'm honored to get a compliment from you! :)

I thought about doing it again and keeping a play-by-play, and uploading the starting save, so anyone interested could replicate how to do it. I imagine this would be a good way for people finishing much later to learn. Alas...not enough time.