So I have been playing more of this mod and have fallen in love with the Jotnar, specifically their lore (which is largely non-apparent, giving me a blank slate to go wild with). However I am at a bit of a loss at how to play them effectively.

Normally I use Mother Enningas and go for a hybrid builder-conquest type civ- rp'd, of course (my excuse for any mistakes I make). I generally focus on having a ton of small steadings that just crank out giants. I keep most of the giants in my borders, having them train up and add :hammers: to the cities they were born in, but I do have about 10 or so wild trolls running about exploring stuff.

I try to get RoK for my religion, as it gives my gold and gold seems pretty important considering how expensive/often I have to upgrade my giants. However I have been fiddling with the idea of adopting FoL, as the idea of great guardians of the forest appeals to me. :D

But, uh, as asked above: what are some real strategies? (not the namby-pamby pick-up-techs-as-you-go approach I often use)

LOL. The current lack of lore is my fault, sad to say.

When I was working on them my primary thought was to model them after the historical/mythical Norse. That is where you get some of the difficult to pronounce names, the enslave chance, etc...

As they currently sit they have a number of strong strategies.

1. Seeding potential future city plots with forts. Saves you building a settler when the time comes to expand.

2. Cherry-picking city plots. You have no distance penalty, so you are free to grab the best unused spots on the map.

3. Small armies of ridiculous troops. If you save your old giants and promote them with equipment and an appropriate kin promo, you'll have some nasty troops. You won't have many of them...

4. Customizable units. With techs there are lots of things you can do with your units. I haven't heard much talk of the packmaster promos...which leads me to believe nobody is using them much. :D

Basically speaking I tried to leave most strategies open to the Jotnar. Each leader certainly has his strengths...but they are all pretty flexible.

Father Kag... is realy good at getting slaves. with ways of the wicked you can attack a weak civ and turn their slaves into juntar citizen.

ATM this is my favorite civ, and I am trying to test the packmaster out. Jonotar are strong with felowship, especialy on ice or tundra with the yargana.

Father Kag... is realy good at getting slaves. with ways of the wicked you can attack a weak civ and turn their slaves into juntar citizen.

ATM this is my favorite civ, and I am trying to test the packmaster out. Jonotar are strong with felowship, especialy on ice or tundra with the yargana.

You may like RoK as well, given that your Soldiers of Kilmorph will be able to build Dwarven Mines... Which eventually become Dwarven Fortresses, and are obscenely strong. :lol:

I have been wondering how non dwarven players were building dwarven forts. I have actually been stealing dwarven workers to build them;this will change everything.

I have been focusing on fire manna when I build nodes, I find I usually get the scorched staff. The Juton are also good traders, I try to build on coast and catch hippograffs for their special building.

LOL. The current lack of lore is my fault, sad to say.

Don't be sad! The bare-bones lore is what attracted me to the civ in the first place (as well as the image of giants pouring out of the mountains and tossing dwarves left and right). When I get around to writing about my game it is nice to know that I do not have to be Magister to get anything remotely correct.


However, I have a quick question: the way I have imagined the Jotnar (at least Mother Enningas's Jotnar) is that they have one or two giants living in the steading and tons of humans/smaller humanoids live around the castle. Is this so? Do the Jotnar act like feudal lords and protect their 'serfs'?


EDIT: Also, for workers, which strategy is better? I tend to bounce between having my young jotnar do the work (makes sense for Mother Enningas, promotes that the jotnar do 'good works' while they're young so as to teach them discipline) and having a buttload of thralls (like 30+) working on one project at a time (makes more sense for the other Jotnar leaders- the Giants are too proud to sully their hands!)

Don't be sad! The bare-bones lore is what attracted me to the civ in the first place (as well as the image of giants pouring out of the mountains and tossing dwarves left and right). When I get around to writing about my game it is nice to know that I do not have to be Magister to get anything remotely correct.


However, I have a quick question: the way I have imagined the Jotnar (at least Mother Enningas's Jotnar) is that they have one or two giants living in the steading and tons of humans/smaller humanoids live around the castle. Is this so? Do the Jotnar act like feudal lords and protect their 'serfs'?


EDIT: Also, for workers, which strategy is better? I tend to bounce between having my young jotnar do the work (makes sense for Mother Enningas, promotes that the jotnar do 'good works' while they're young so as to teach them discipline) and having a buttload of thralls (like 30+) working on one project at a time (makes more sense for the other Jotnar leaders- the Giants are too proud to sully their hands!)


The image I have of the Jotnar is about one extended family per population point living
in each steading. These extended families are surrounded by a huge throng of goblinoid slaves that do most of the work. As for protecting them...you noticed the long pork spell, right? That simulates a Jotnar unit eating some slaves as a quick pick-me-up. :D

Workers...I don't think there is a "right" way. Obviously huscarls can do work much faster than the thrall militia, and seakin are capable of building those sweet, sweet sea farms. On the other hand, thrall militia cost no support, are healing potions with feet, and can be used as a low-cost speedbump.

So they have no chance of living with other creatures (save for the Goblin thralls) whatsoever? Alright, alright. (Would it be plausible that as the civ advances/wars/conquers that they begin to take in other races as thralls?) Well, another question, which Deity is the patron of the Giants? Kilmorph?

So they have no chance of living with other creatures (save for the Goblin thralls) whatsoever? Alright, alright. (Would it be plausible that as the civ advances/wars/conquers that they begin to take in other races as thralls?) Well, another question, which Deity is the patron of the Giants? Kilmorph?

Actually, I could easily see them living amongst other races. Under Mother, it could even be fairly cosmopolitan; Everyone would be equal, like with Kuriotates, they just have different specialties. Under Father, other races would definitely be 'lesser', but have their uses... It's why he has Conqueror. Under Uxol, I think they'd be nothing but slaves. :p

Not sure what patron they'd have. The frontrunners (in my mind) are Kilmorph or Mulcarn. I can definitely see them going White Hand and reuniting with the Frost Giants. :p

Well, see, I was contemplating that as well. However aren't the Frost Giants a bit more evil and rather rare (as most now live in Hell with their God)? Also I figured that even under Mother that other races would be 'lesser', as Giants are Giants and Mother despite all her goodie-goodieness is still a Giant who wishes to bring a new era of glory for her kind. I figured that the other races would be seen more as children, that the Giants still lord over them and they are given a fair amount of rights, but will never rule (they'd still have positions of importance, as I figure Mother-Giants would come to see the use of allotting certain non-menial tasks to the smaller races).

I could see the Jotnar under Mother treating others as 'children', yes. More patronizing than any real method to it though. Just a 'Mother knows best' type thing. ;)

So they have no chance of living with other creatures (save for the Goblin thralls) whatsoever? Alright, alright. (Would it be plausible that as the civ advances/wars/conquers that they begin to take in other races as thralls?) Well, another question, which Deity is the patron of the Giants? Kilmorph?

Sure, it is possible...particularly for Mother. They aren't blocked from using Long Pork when they are good, but I tend to refrain. :)

I also tend to run for founding Runes of Kilmorph when I'm playing Heph...and in that situation I imagine them treating the dwarves as (very junior) partners.

Yeah, about him. What exactly is he? A Fire-Giant? An Angel of Kilmorph?

Edit: More specifically, what is this tie to Kilmorph, if any?

Well, he is directly based on a certain Greek deity.

'He was the god of technology, blacksmiths, craftsmen, artisans, sculptors, metals, metallurgy, fire and volcanoes.'

So both fire giant and disciple of Kilmorph. Should have very high weightings for RoK if he doesn't already. ;)

Another question! Who exactly are the First Mother and First Father? (The giant equivalents to Nemed and (Os) Geballa?)

Furthermore the pedia mentions that Mother Enningas is 'the purest giantkin female alive, despite her young age'. What exactly does this mean? She comes from a direct line of the two giantkin originators? Was there some sort of corruption along the line (as that is what this entry seems to suggest)?

No idea, honestly.

The closest I can come to an answer: Look at Trolls. They are the result of a Giant (one would hope female...) breeding with a Greenskin of some kind. Orc or Goblin. This would imply that there was/is interbreeding between Giants and other races... Which would mean that they are descendants of Nemed, altered in some way.

I especially like to play as Hephaestus so all of my units can get weapons (including Egrass). It then makes all of my units ridiculously strong (instead of some ridiculously strong and others just strong). They are a great civ though!

Yeah, I just finished a cheese game (world builder, quick, was testing something) with Hephaestus. I just built a TON of thrall militias, gave them mithral, and swarmed like no other.

edit: Yeah, the more I play them the more I realize how OP the Jotnar can be. However, the one thing keeping me back in my current game is the UTTER LACK OF GIANTS BEING BORN. >:c

I tend to play Heph.


And Firekin Freebooters with the Scorched staff. Yeah it's putting all your eggs into one or two baskets, but boy are they -fun- baskets.

Does StW still subtract 1.5 off their food requirement instead of 0.5?

If so, AV is the best religion for them, if not, order is. You make far more gold with basilicas and the free law mana than with RoK and its temples, and RoK's lack of culture really sucks for the Jotnar.

I think StW is a set cost, not a subtraction, so yeah, 1.5. I could be completely wrong, but I seem to remember it being mentioned.

That was me who mentioned that back in 1.12, and Valkrionn said it needed to be changed. I don't know if it was, though.

Just played a quick game to check, verified Jotnar + StW = 1.5 Food/Pop

Yeah, I just finished a cheese game (world builder, quick, was testing something) with Hephaestus. I just built a TON of thrall militias, gave them mithral, and swarmed like no other.




Hrrrm. Thrall militia should be defensive only. I will fix that.

Oh, no, no. You have it so that they are defensive only (I think). I did some editing of their units to test out that strategy and, well, it's rather cheap as I predicted!

edit:

However, I have to ask, how does the game spawn new Jotnar? In most of my recent games I have had a severe lack of them being born, meaning I have to rely on Wild Trolls and their upgrades while having a few truly awesome Giants leading those armies.

Oh, no, no. You have it so that they are defensive only (I think). I did some editing of their units to test out that strategy and, well, it's rather cheap as I predicted!

edit:

However, I have to ask, how does the game spawn new Jotnar? In most of my recent games I have had a severe lack of them being born, meaning I have to rely on Wild Trolls and their upgrades while having a few truly awesome Giants leading those armies.

Well, the current equation is this:

if gc.getPlayer(iPlayer).getCivilizationType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('CIVILIZATION_JOTNAR'):

iGiantKinPromotion= gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_JOT_GIANTKIN')
iTrollKinPromotion= gc.getInfoTypeForString('PROMOTION_TROLLKIN')
iCurrentNumberOfGiants = 0

for pUnit in PyPlayer(iPlayer).getUnitList():
if pUnit.isHasPromotion(iGiantKinPromotion) or pUnit.isHasPromotion(iTrollKinPromotion):
iCurrentNumberOfGiants += 1

iMaxGiants = 5 + (5 * pPlayer.countNumBuildings(gc.getInfoTypeForString( 'BUILDING_JOT_STAEDDING')))

iGiantSpawnChance = 7 * (iMaxGiants - iCurrentNumberOfGiants)

if CyGame().getGameSpeedType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('GAMESPEED_QUICK'):
iGiantSpawnChance *= 1.5
if CyGame().getGameSpeedType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('GAMESPEED_EPIC'):
iGiantSpawnChance /= 1.5
if CyGame().getGameSpeedType() == gc.getInfoTypeForString('GAMESPEED_MARATHON'):
iGiantSpawnChance /= 3

if CyGame().getSorenRandNum(1000, "Giants born") < iGiantSpawnChance:
iUnit = gc.getInfoTypeForString('UNIT_JOT_ADULT')
newUnit = pPlayer.initUnit(iUnit, pPlot.getX(), pPlot.getY(), UnitAITypes.NO_UNITAI, DirectionTypes.DIRECTION_NORTH)
CyInterface().addMessage(iPlayer,True,25,CyTransla tor().getText("TXT_KEY_MESSAGE_GIANT_BORN",()),'AS2D_DISCOVERBONUS',1,gc.getUnitInfo(newUnit .getUnitType()).getButton(),ColorTypes(8),pCity.ge tX(),pCity.getY(),True,True)
if pCity.getNumBuilding(gc.getInfoTypeForString('BUIL DING_JOT_HOUSE_OF_THE_ANCESTORS')) > 0:
newUnit.setHasPromotion(gc.getInfoTypeForString('P ROMOTION_SPIRIT_GUIDE'), True)


Which appears to be the latest python from FF, not my altered python. Which explains why your spawn rate is terrible. Will fix.

yep.. I understand things a bit more.. if the trolls are counted in the giantkin numbers it would shunt the giantkin appearance odds !!!

It seems that early game, getting jotnar citizen almost every growth of the city, and only just after growth, was a fluke .. or not ?


I've got 2 questions :
-I read something about jotnar able to settle the forts... and thus not needing settlers... I couldn't make it work ... Hoax ? former version ? my stupidity ?
-I read again and again, even in civilopedia that the jotnar aims for many small settlement limited to the 1st ring...
BUT : it seems they have 3 rings !!!! and the palace is thus that if city-distance-maintenance is void ... the maintenance for the number of city is upped by 400% !!
once again : is it the former version, the civilopédia text being not-updated ? my stupidity for mixing things ? or my version that is not up to date ?
If I got the good version, what is the use for the maintenance réduction of the season palaces ?

last :
it is supposed to be like that :
"Jotnar can no longer build or upgrade Workers, instead rely on Adults for the main workforce. All units Adults upgrade to are able to serve as workers if needed."

But my only gothi cannot do any worker work.

yep.. I understand things a bit more.. if the trolls are counted in the giantkin numbers it would shunt the giantkin appearance odds !!!

It seems that early game, getting jotnar citizen almost every growth of the city, and only just after growth, was a fluke .. or not ?


I've got 2 questions :
-I read something about jotnar able to settle the forts... and thus not needing settlers... I couldn't make it work ... Hoax ? former version ? my stupidity ?
-I read again and again, even in civilopedia that the jotnar aims for many small settlement limited to the 1st ring...
BUT : it seems they have 3 rings !!!! and the palace is thus that if city-distance-maintenance is void ... the maintenance for the number of city is upped by 400% !!
once again : is it the former version, the civilopédia text being not-updated ? my stupidity for mixing things ? or my version that is not up to date ?
If I got the good version, what is the use for the maintenance réduction of the season palaces ?

Yeah, Trolls should NOT count in RIFE. I will fix.

1. You need to be level...7? (I need to look at the XML file). The spell will become available to your FC then if you've researched Masonry.
2. All changes in RIFE. Small number of 3 ring cities is the new atandard.
3. The "palaces" don't reduce maintenance for the Jotnar. They do other, more interesting things.

How can we build the 4 "season palaces" for jotnar ?
1 city per season palace + capitol.. I would need 5 huge expensive cities !

Any way to have multiples palaces in 1 city ?

How can we build the 4 "season palaces" for jotnar ?
1 city per season palace + capitol.. I would need 5 huge expensive cities !

Any way to have multiples palaces in 1 city ?

Nope. Intentional balance limitation.

It took me a while, but it works like this: You make forts. Once a Herredcarl (the weird Fort Commander replacement without Fort Commander upgrades) reaches level 7, you can upgrade it for 100 gold into a city, transforming the Herredcarl into a Hurler (higher defense, inferior ranged attack) in the process.

Your cities are expensive but maintenance is much more manageable then, say, a straight-up gold penalty. New cities build Courthouses, Markets, Gambling Houses, and a Palace as your situation allows.

Aside from the 100-gold cost and the high maintenance the Jotnar are more or less as gold dependent as the Khazad, so prepare to work hard at economy. One thing to keep in mind is that most of the Kin promotions, despite their attractiveness, are things you really need to make sure you can afford before you pick them up.


Stormkin is the one that (appropriately located at Trade) really pays for itself: it gives your 'Carls more range to farm barbs from, ensuring faster XP trickle, and it allows the Windtalker spell for your new city defender, which gives back a little of your gold. It also goes great with your siege, especially if you make them flying. Woodkin devastates the AI because they don't understand what to do about it, and serves as a superior Woodsman II (because your trolls already outspeed Woodsman II Recon Units...in ALL terrain...and can cross mountains) but it's not really necessary, your trolls are already terrifying. Seakin lets you win at the ocean, but the OO has had that nailed down forever anyway, and Krakens with Tsunami backup are still no joke. Firekin is meh - orcs tank fire damage, the Scorch is too slow to beat just building Sun nodes if you need it (and way too slow for offensive use), and deserts aren't where you want your trolls hanging out for extended periods of time anyway. Mirage is interesting, but a smart human player has scouts for your Woodkin-trolls already and the AI shouldn't be touching your workers anyway. Stonekin sounds like The Worker Promotion - workrate and defensive bonus! But you've got hordes of thrall militia helping workrate already, and your Citizens/Huscarls are tough enough to tank barbs without the promotion and not tough enough to deal with civ attack even with it.

Hunting should be your first tech without exception, preferably before your second troll is built. Spam trolls early, explore with extreme aggression, feed them on skeletons and orcs/goblins/frostlings while saving at least some of the wildlife for later capture, especially bears since they don't need a Carnival.

Once you've picked out three to five ideal city sites you need to fort them - NOW. The painful way is escorted Citizen teams who are going to be working without Construction for quite some time even if you rush it (which you need to, if you do it this way). The infinitely superior way is to start a war with your nearest neighbor, slaughtering his feeble early military with your absurdly powerful trolls (if you rush tracking this is a gamebreaker) but keeping him alive so you can farm Great Commanders and Jotnar-upgradeable slaves (the fastest way by far to get Citizens - does not work on the Clan, though, they just yield Orcish and Goblinoid Thralls). Great Commanders should then start forting all the ideal locations immediately, and by turn 150 you can have 5+ perfect cities if you're quick and good with economics.

Every path yields extremely good results for you. You can just stick with trolls if you like, they're very strong, incredibly mobile, get bonuses against everything found outside of a culture boundary...your melee line is berserk, your arcane line can build the Tower of Elements off the extremely beneficial Wonders you want to construct anyway and thus has easy access to whatever elements you prefer, your divine line is AMAZING despite not getting priests or religious heroes...

Your religion choice is important. There is a lot of pressure on you to pick ONE OF RoK, Order, or AV for their assorted benefits - you need a lot of gold income and Dwarven Mines, a way to deal with your massive maintenance costs directly, or at least massive city growth to compensate. A neat trick is to found RoK for the Holy City, build yourself as many Dwarven Mines as you can while you tech, then go with either Order or AV (I like Order, as I like being Good and Hell Terrain is really rough on your ideal cities) and just spread RoK everywhere you can. Trade the tech cheap or give it away, even.

Hmmm...is the general consensus that Trolls are OP?

They've been through many permutations...I have no problem tweaking them.

Any other feedback on the kin promotions? I can reduce or eliminate the delay on their terraforming spells...not an issue. Anybody using Frostkin?

Trolls are OP because animals are OP (apparently you still didn't work out all their bugs.) Hold off on modifying trolls themselves till that's taken care of.

well... woodkin-seakin is great to avoid your lvl 7-8 troll going feral.. and to allow subdue animal
...
maybe I'll go for the next game with your fort construction spreading !!

Really, Verm, the Jotnar are terribly OP as a whole. The only thing keeping me down is the slow birth rate for my giants, but even that can be fixed with the trolls.

Yes, I'd say nerf the trolls JUST A LITTLE, to make it so that they cannot be a viable backbone to your army. They should serve their purpose as hidden defenders when in the forests/skirmishers when taking on armies. Maybe a -% to their city attack (like how most recon units have) and something else?

As for the giant birth rate, I would just say up it -a little-. Also try to make it so that you cannot convert human slaves into Giant kin. Huge amounts of cheese there.

The non-Jotnar turning to Jotnar slaves is a bug. Will be fixed.

Trolls can be tweaked.


Anything else?

I'd actually suggest blocking Reavers and Freebooters from having access to mounted equipment. For one, it doesn't make much sense (What do they do? Eat the blessed horses?) and two, they don't really need the boost.

Aside from the bonus damage on Egrass, Frostkin seems to me a little pointless. You're already hurting for food, MAKING tundra is usually exactly the opposite of what you want to do, unless I've missed some Tundra-related bonus the Jotnar get. Switching Mulcarn's Blessing for Slow might be a fix.

Noticed a bug where a Giant Spider (upgraded to Sword via Mucro - are non-Archos civs supposed to be able to do that?) I'd caught could keep buying Kindred/Kin/Kindred/Kin promotions. Every time I picked a Kin promotion, it was able to repurchase Kindred, and thus a new Kin promotion. It was under Hidden Nationality, which might have had something to do with it.

Possible fix for Trolls could be to drop their movespeed down to normal. They already outrun pretty much everything by dint of ignoring terrain, and in case of Sabretooth they can always climb the nearest mountain.

I thought the Jotnar-slave thing was weird, but I didn't realize it was a bug. It's been, uh, my primary source of Citizens. :mischief: I can't comment on the spawn rate, since I don't actually spawn more then one or two Citizens before I'm at war, which usually yields around 6-12 Jotnar-slaves, which is the end for spawning.

Well, I play on marathon exclusively so when I spawn 3 citizens in the first 300 turns I consider myself blessed.

Aside from the bonus damage on Egrass, Frostkin seems to me a little pointless. You're already hurting for food, MAKING tundra is usually exactly the opposite of what you want to do, unless I've missed some Tundra-related bonus the Jotnar get. Switching Mulcarn's Blessing for Slow might be a fix.

Noticed a bug where a Giant Spider (upgraded to Sword via Mucro - are non-Archos civs supposed to be able to do that?) I'd caught could keep buying Kindred/Kin/Kindred/Kin promotions. Every time I picked a Kin promotion, it was able to repurchase Kindred, and thus a new Kin promotion. It was under Hidden Nationality, which might have had something to do with it.

Possible fix for Trolls could be to drop their movespeed down to normal. They already outrun pretty much everything by dint of ignoring terrain, and in case of Sabretooth they can always climb the nearest mountain.

I thought the Jotnar-slave thing was weird, but I didn't realize it was a bug. It's been, uh, my primary source of Citizens. :mischief: I can't comment on the spawn rate, since I don't actually spawn more then one or two Citizens before I'm at war, which usually yields around 6-12 Jotnar-slaves, which is the end for spawning.



The Jotnar actually do get a food bonus on Tundra...or they should. I'll recheck. My usual strategy with Frostkin is FOL+yurts.

Troll speed can be dropped. It woudl go back up to 2 at Hunting in any case...that is probably fine.

Spider thing is bizarre. I will check it.

there is a food bonus for tundra and ice.
tundra deer next to river is HUGE for the jotnar :D

wild trolls at 2 speed seems ok. maybe keep 3 for other of the troll line ?

Well those spiders -do- have Giant in their name, also I can confirm that Jotnar get +1 food on tundra.

Also, I have to disagree Calavente- the troll line as it is just gets expotentially more powerful as it goes along. Keeping them at speed 2 should curb this already OP civ just a litte.

:D I haven't played yet with more powerful units.. It's my first game with the jotnar...
and I only have wild trolls... with 3 movement !
at first it was two and now three. (they only had 3mvt with feral....and now 3 even without feral or woodkin)

I trust you completly for the next units in the troll line... I don't know them yet :D

I'll knock it back to 1 for most of the line, 2 for Elder.


They'll go up to 2(or 3) at Hunting.

Nice, will this also affect the Trolls of Bhall?

Nice, will this also affect the Trolls of Bhall?


Yup.

Slight Clan nerf, but I'm OK with that.

I'll knock it back to 1 for most of the line, 2 for Elder.


They'll go up to 2(or 3) at Hunting.ok.. nice nerf
works for me.. :D

Added this into my running Game because I agree that it is a good change.

do anyone know how to build sea farm on ocean, btw I tryit with reavers dont work, please solution;:cry:
and with stormkin my units dont fly somebody mention it in thread

do anyone know how to build sea farm on ocean, btw I tryit with reavers dont work, please solution;:cry:
and with stormkin my units dont fly somebody mention it in thread

You need to research optics.

ok.. nice nerf
works for me.. :D

It's not the movement that causes issues from trolls, but the strength of captured units, esp spiders. I currently have a force of 2 sword spider swarms + 5 reg spider swarms that eat everything in thier path.

Haven't tried Acheron yet, but w/ courage I don't think he'll last long.

Just attacked Acheron outside of his city and lost 2 units before he was killed.

i have the optics, that is the problem :rolleyes::cry:

It's not the movement that causes issues from trolls, but the strength of captured units, esp spiders. I currently have a force of 2 sword spider swarms + 5 reg spider swarms that eat everything in thier path.

Haven't tried Acheron yet, but w/ courage I don't think he'll last long.


This will NOT be a problem in the next patch. :mischief:

To be honest I feel that the Jotnar were more fun to play when they were restricted to only city ring, forcing me to have many steadings rather than five giant ones (which just makes me feel as if I am playing a super version of the Kuriotates).

Something of that feeling should come back eventually, though not under the Jotnar...

For one thing, I've been tossing around an idea for combing the Orbis Kuriotates system with RifE's.

Basically, they'd have three 'city' types.

Sprawling cities. Same thing as now.
Settlements. These will be as in Orbis; One radius cities, able to build standard buildings and units. No Heroes or Wonders.
Citadels. These are not technically cities, and will be your main method of expansion; You will have limited numbers of settlers, and after your cities are maxed you will be unable to build more. In compensation, Kurio fort commanders can found Settlements on their forts once they are the correct level.


A little like the Jotnar with the last part, but I think it's a good enough mechanic that we can duplicate it. And it will really help the Kurios. ;)

Something of that feeling should come back eventually, though not under the Jotnar...

For one thing, I've been tossing around an idea for combing the Orbis Kuriotates system with RifE's.

Basically, they'd have three 'city' types.

Sprawling cities. Same thing as now.
Settlements. These will be as in Orbis; One radius cities, able to build standard buildings and units. No Heroes or Wonders.
Citadels. These are not technically cities, and will be your main method of expansion; You will have limited numbers of settlers, and after your cities are maxed you will be unable to build more. In compensation, Kurio fort commanders can found Settlements on their forts once they are the correct level.


A little like the Jotnar with the last part, but I think it's a good enough mechanic that we can duplicate it. And it will really help the Kurios. ;)


I think this would do much to un-gimp the Kurios. I just played a test game with them as an AI...sad. Terribly sad. Like a puppy with no legs.

I think this would do much to un-gimp the Kurios. I just played a test game with them as an AI...sad. Terribly sad. Like a puppy with no legs.

Odd. I haven't had much experience with them, but they seemed pretty impressively strong when I got into a war with them as the frozen.

o.O Did you just use the words "Strong" and "Frozen" in the same sentence, but NOT referring to the Frozen?! You, good sir, are crazy. As the Frozen, nobody should be giving you any problems. Throw in some cannon fodder, get the wintering on all the defenders, kill them now that they're debuffed, add them to your city, replace your cannon fodder, repeat, profit. :D

This may be a bit late, but is there any reason why the various Giants get 4 models per unit rather than just one? I kind of liked the old version, where it really felt like you just had one really big guy wading in and killing everything, while in this version a unit of Fyrd has more guys than a unit of axemen, which seems sort of counter-intuitive. Was there a reason for this that I just missed? And is it possible to change it on my version?

This may be a bit late, but is there any reason why the various Giants get 4 models per unit rather than just one? I kind of liked the old version, where it really felt like you just had one really big guy wading in and killing everything, while in this version a unit of Fyrd has more guys than a unit of axemen, which seems sort of counter-intuitive. Was there a reason for this that I just missed? And is it possible to change it on my version?


It is a limitation of custom artstyles. The packmaster promotions replace 3 of those giants with trolls or animals...but that won't work if there are no models to replace.

I found myself a little puzzled about why exactly are Jotnar allowed to work peaks when they only get 1:hammers: out of them anyway - no difference from having a citizen specialist. I haven't noticed being able to build any improvements on peaks either, so the only use I can think of is Hephaestus, thanks to Veinhunter, getting 2:hammers: out of peaks, making them marginally better than having to run a citizen, which probably won't happen in any case.

So, have I missed something?

Also, just to be sure, I have absolutely nothing against them working the peaks. It suits them just fine. Just mentioning it since I haven't noticed any other reason for it being allowed than for flavour.

Flavor. The only civ getting an actual benefit (read: Something over just a citizen) is the Khazad.

There will be improvements eventually, just need some art first as they sit on TOP of the peak. :lol:

Just started my very first game playing as the Jotnar, a few days ago. Emperor difficulty.

I'm not sure if it's just them, or I'm just suited for playing at that difficulty level, but it's sure of a heck lot easier than anything I encountered on Prince and King. Maybe it's because I play on marathon all the time...

Anyway! Loving the Jotnar! Absolutely loving them.

One of the things I love about Jontar is their ability to adapt to any game, based on their starting position. The best synergy is with earth mana, RoK is able to build the dwarven forts (You can have 5 in a city), and with lots of earth mana you can produce a ton of resources such as gems, gold, etc... . Which is why having the fabrication guild is a must, because culture is a powerful tool for defense and for economic growth.

I have found Hephaestus to be the most powerful leaders, because of the armorer promotion, which makes his arcane and recon units better then Uxol's in the late game. (fast tracking to mithril working is a good idea). Moreover his Ability to pick philosophical as a trait makes him overpowered, I usually spam great merchants and engineers, but don't forget to build the apothecary because the potions are a must have for your top level units. (Perhaps a more fair trait would be ingenuity instead of the minor and the vein promotion)

It is always a good idea to capture as many animals as you can afford (especially hippograffs and griffons). The one problem with Jontar is expansion. I usually build around four cities unless I get a great commander in which case I will strategical place forts all over the map.

In all I think that jontar are the most diverse civ in the game. The way I want to play is by specializing each city with a specific kindred (fire, Ice, earth, nature, and a water/air). I then try to make the terrain in that city's area complement its affinity. As well I will try to set an uber unit with that cities affinity as the "head" of the city. In all this civ is a lot of fun and I think that some of the coolest scenarios could be built with them. Perhaps this summer I will try to make one.

And it is a good Idea to build 5 or more trolls in the early game, that way if you decide to get the troll elders they will be all the more powerful. I would only use them to explore in a large group though, because they are to valuable to loose at any point of the game.

I can think of several good tech paths, but I never go with one set rule I usualy just tech based off surroundings and resources.

Typically I don't focus on Arcane units until mid-late game, I will set aside 2 of my oldest jontar citizens for the arcane path. But the best way to build their xp is with valor and a great commander. I find it pointless to build them early and wait for their xp to accumulate.

May be a silly question but how do one spread religion easiest with the Jotnar?

Research knowledge of the Ether and build their civilization hero. He has the ability to spread religions. Also.. armorer is broken. Beast masters with 19/20 +1-6 extra from living a long time.. A long lived Jotnar beast master can take on acheron himself. Rediculous..

Mind you this is probably why you found them easy to play. The computer doesn't know how to attack with just 1 or 2 guys a turn at 99.9% and instead throws their whole army at you and kills enough so you can finish the big guys off. In the hands of a human player though.. unless you are up against the grigori, you are unstoppable.

So...

To get a city started on an island I have to have a Reaver get the seakin trait, walk to the island, found a fortress & then upgrade that fortress to the point that it can transform into a city?

So...

To get a city started on an island I have to have a Reaver get the seakin trait, walk to the island, found a fortress & then upgrade that fortress to the point that it can transform into a city?

It's been a while since I played the Jotnar, but couldn't you just, like, send a settler?

It's been a while since I played the Jotnar, but couldn't you just, like, send a settler?

Yep. It just took me a while to figure out how seakin giants could transport other giants.

Now I'm trying to figure how to get units to work sea tiles. I know they should do it after optics, but I'm not seeing it.

Now I'm trying to figure how to get units to work sea tiles. I know they should do it after optics, but I'm not seeing it.

Water tiles should be workable with earlier than that. You're probably talking about building improvements on resources in ocean. I don't think Jotnar can do that. (Bug; but since they're being redone from scratch for a third time, no one can be bothered to fix it.)

Water tiles should be workable with earlier than that. You're probably talking about building improvements on resources in ocean. I don't think Jotnar can do that. (Bug; but since they're being redone from scratch for a third time, no one can be bothered to fix it.)

Cool. Guess I'll just use the map editor to throw fishing boats on them.

Not sure the Jotnar need all that much strategy, honestly. Pick Hephasteus, build Egrass, kill everything with him while promoting him up the melee line as you can. He can get to like 70 calculated strength once he's an old phalanx. Maybe more if he can use Packmaster promo's, don't know if he can. Never needed them.

Kinda like Korrina the Red, but Jotnar instead. And, of course, stronger in the long-run.

What's the timetable on that Jotnar rewrite?

Should I just futz around with other civilizations till it arrives? I like them, but I'm curious to see the rewrite & would be happy to play around with other things I'm curious about till it arrives.

Opera's working on a different civ atm, but Jotnar are next and the plan of attack is pretty much set.

Opera's working on a different civ atm, but Jotnar are next and the plan of attack is pretty much set.

This is a silly question, but are they keeping something like the elemental theming that they have now?

The Kindred setup? Yes, we all like it. It will change, of course, and lots of discussion has been centered on just that, but it will be in.

May be a silly question but how do one spread religion easiest with the Jotnar?

You have to upgrade a citizen into a gothi, yeah it confused me for a long time too