View Full Version : Give archers bombard ability?


Marzipan
Oct 27, 2002, 09:23 AM
Has anyone tried this out?

Cimbri
Oct 27, 2002, 10:07 AM
Nope. But I was thinking of the same. Would be a really cool aspect.
Anyway they should have such an ability. Archers are used to soften an enemy before a charge.

Ed O'War
Oct 27, 2002, 12:25 PM
There's been some discussion before about giving ranged units a zero range bombardment ability. The theory is that it would allow them to do a defensive bombardment when someone attacks them in a stack, sort of representing their ability to soften up the enemy. I haven't tried it myself, so I don't know how well it works.

Bolt
Oct 27, 2002, 03:36 PM
But this will also make them be able to destroy buildings in cities, but I guess they switch to fire arrows for that. But what about stone buildings?

W.i.n.t.e.r
Oct 27, 2002, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Bolt
But this will also make them be able to destroy buildings in cities, but I guess they switch to fire arrows for that. But what about stone buildings?

No, not when the bombard range is zero (0)- in this case bombard would only be used if the unit is attacked- Works !!!

IceBlaZe
Oct 28, 2002, 09:11 AM
Yes, it works excellent.
I have it implemented in my game.

Nemesis Rex
Oct 28, 2002, 09:51 AM
If you give the archers and longbowmen a bombard strength but do not check the bombard under special abilities it will provide defensive fire but cannot bombard. I use this in my mod and it works fine.

If you give them the ability to actually bombard, they can destroy improvements and buildings, which isn't very realistic. Also the AI is rather stupid when it comes to land bombardment units, even though they supposedly improved it with one of the patches. They use battleships and bombers all the time, artillery is usually just left defensively in cities. Even then they often misses opportunities to bombard units that have moved up to the city. So if you're archers are bombarding and the AI's are not, you have too much of an advantage. I brutalize them with artillery too much as it is. ;)

Yoda Power
Oct 28, 2002, 10:34 AM
But if you give archers bombard, shouldn´t you give all shouting units bombard? I mean archers shout as well as cavalry and marines.

Smoking mirror
Oct 28, 2002, 11:21 AM
The AI actualy used defensive bombards better than it uses dedicated bombard units, as they often build archers or bowmen any way and tend to advance in stacks; So you will often find a swordsman (defence 2) being shilded by archers (I usualy give units a defensive bombard equal to half thier attack, so 1 for bowmen and 2 for longbowmen, this makes them usefull but not overly powerful, they will some times provide an edge, but don't depend on it).

This is something best restricted to date restricted scenarios (ancient or middle ages) as in the industrial/modern era nearly all units are armed with some kind of ranged attack weapon; rifles grenades bazookas etc... so giving them all a defensive bombard would somewhat remove the tactical aspect.

Snoopy
Oct 28, 2002, 03:12 PM
In my maps that I released on Apolyton, there is no ocean, so I had to change the English UU to longbowman, but I thought it wasn't quite good enough, so I gave it bombard aswell. (I turned off longbowmen for every other civ).

The English really get a much better advantagement than the Man-O-War. More realistic for me .

Nemesis Rex
Oct 28, 2002, 03:40 PM
As SM said, the AI will often stack it's attack archers and longbowmen with defensive units, which makes the defensive bombard valuable and usable by the AI. When the bombard value is relatively low (1 or 2) it is only really useful in the early game, when there is a real difference between ranged and shock troops.

Modern gunpowder units operate on a completely different paradigm. All units in the latter game have some range in the real world. But that's different than balance between pikeman and archers. Once you have later units the relatively low bombard values become virtually useless.

The transition period with 2.4 Musketmen is a little problematic. But, I don't know how firaxis camup with having musketmen as defensive units anyway. I've changed them into attack units that are the upgrades from crossbowmen, which replaced longbowmen, who are now an English UU. This allows the crossbowmen and musketmen to be stacked with pikemen. Get a decent medieval and pike & musket era unit mix that way.

Der PH
Oct 29, 2002, 04:13 AM
Originally posted by Yoda Power
But if you give archers bombard, shouldn´t you give all shouting units bombard? I mean archers shout as well as cavalry and marines.

I included a complete upgrade path of offensive infantry units with ranged weapons till marines in my games (bowman -> cross-/longbowman -> grenadier (6/4/1, using the napoleonic rifleman graphics) -> marine (improved to 10/8/1)) and after reading this thread yesterday, I gave all of them a zero-range-bombard value according to their attack value. I'm just testing it, but it looks good.
Now finally longbowman are useful, even if you can build knights, too. :goodjob:

HotDog Fish
Oct 29, 2002, 04:24 AM
Would this also work for units like sea and land mines?

Der PH
Oct 29, 2002, 05:36 AM
Originally posted by HotDog Fish
Would this also work for units like sea and land mines?

Maybe, if you stack your mines or defend them with other units. Giving the mine a defense value of 1 and a bombard value, could do it.
Have to try this...

Edit: However, I don't think the AI will use them properly.