The mod is no longer here.
Since I am now making changes that no longer involve the tech tree I have moved to a new thread. It's called
Fulano's MoO2Civ Minimod (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=354083). Please follow the link to see it. I hope to make some good changes to the gameplay and have this minimod be included in a future version of MoO2Civ.



The new tech tree for MoO2Civ is updated to v1.2b!
All it needs is for everybody to play it and give feedback! :)

To Install:
-Download the latest attached ZIP archive of the XML folder. (Called New Tech Tree XML Folder v1.2b.zip)
-Unzip these files into the MoO2Civ 5.0b's XML folder. Found in this area "\Beyond the Sword\Mods\MOO2Civ 5.0 Beta\Assets\XML"
-The files already there will be replaced, so click yes when it asks if you want to overwrite.
(If there are any new folders created then it was probably unzipped to the wrong spot.)

Description:
In a nutshell, all of the units, buildings, and promotions were split up into individual techs, and they are kept in eight groups like the Masters of Orion 2 tech tree was. Some balancing tweaks were done hopefully improving the mod.

Hopefully this will be included in the next MoO2Civ update after v5.0b!

Be sure to use the research que buy shift-clicking on multiple techs, it makes choosing what to research next MUCH faster.


Edit (Feb/16/10): This will probably be my last major change to MoO2Civ's tech tree. I plan to do some clean up of the XML files and change the tech descriptions during the next few weeks. After that I plan to only update any bugs found or any improvements suggested if I'm still needed to maintain the files. Starting April I won't be able to work on much here until September.
Edit (Feb/17/10): I added the spreadsheet of all the techs that I used as my original plan. It's not completely up to date but it will help you see overall what was done. Just for any interested.

In Masters of Orion 2 a player is only allowed to choose one technology in a tech group. The other technologies can't be researched after that, you can only trade or spy to get the other technologies. I feel this adds a lot of depth to the game because you are using a different set of technology each time you play the game.

Too apply this to Moo2Civ the player will have to research each item like Masters of Orion 2 did. Instead of getting the automated factory, missile base, and armor troops out of the advanced construction tech you would have to research each one individually, each requiring the name number of research points as the whole tech currently costs. Players would need to skip techs they don't need so they don't get left behind. This will also make trading techs and spying much more important and interesting.

The AI can be given a weight for each tech with advanced construction each tech in that level will have a weight of 3, and the next tech level will have a weight of 4, so the AI will want to go forward more than research old techs. I am not sure if this feature is used by the AI though.

Please give me any thoughts you have on this idea on how to make it work or make it better.

Currently I am planning out how the current tech tree will be adapted to the new one. Once I have that done I will post the plan here so you guys can give it a good thrashing and then we can move forward with the plan. I hope have the plan posted before Tuesday.

I know how to edit the techinfo XML file but I'm not sure on how to do more than that in modding Civ4 techs. I haven't found anything that tells how to enable buildings and units though technology, is it in the unit's xml file maybe?

EDIT: Found it for units in the unitinfo.xml. What about buildings?

EDIT: Found it for units in the unitinfo.xml. What about buildings?

Guess it ;). BuildingsInfos.xml

In Masters of Orion 2 a player is only allowed to choose one technology in a tech group. The other technologies can't be researched after that, you can only trade or spy to get the other technologies.

The Psilons would have to be an exception to this rule: they can research any tech. (I can see this might be a problem...)

That said: good initiative! :goodjob:

I have thought of this before mostly regarding getting captured ships to give tech used in their equipment which works better if you have individual technologies. One issue is in civ4 you can't get a technology if you don't have the techs it requires, so you can't actually leap ahead by trading. So dividing techs up will make it closer to MoO2 but not all the way. Also if you have empty technologies that only lead to other technologies the AI might value it less. It should still work though, because the AI doesn't just pick from the techs available, it picks a goal and gets what leads to it. However the AI might not value advanced technology all that much. Likely it would get everything at the low levels rather than push forward, since there's nothing stopping it from staying to get those techs.
I have other notes I've thought of before, but I'll post them later. I would suggest you do one tech line all the way down to start rather than do them all at the same time. That way you can see if it will all work with the one completed line before you put too much work in.

Guess it ;). BuildingsInfos.xml
You are so right! I didn't even realize they were in their own folder! :lol:


The Psilons would have to be an exception to this rule: they can research any tech. (I can see this might be a problem...)
Maybe if the Psilons have like a 200% research bonus it would almost count the same, they would get all the techs because they can research them faster... No, if I played as them I'd just use that huge research bonus to go straight to titans and rock everybody. I always hated the Psilons. All they're good for is to steal techs from.

A tedious solution would be to keep a separate tech trees for them but that would be so much work difficult... Well maybe not too bad since you would just have to type up the settings once to block the Psilon tech tree and once to block the normal tech tree.

Maybe the dependencies could be set to keep a person from going too far in one area?

I'm not sure about this. Obviously a research bonus might work (I was thinking more of the 50% bonus the Humans now have) and would be much easier than setting up a tech tree specifically for the Psilons. (Technically I wouldn't know how to implement the MOO Psilon ability in Civ terms myself otherwise.) But this is a bit hypothetical; first we need to have an expanded tech tree, I think. (As far as I can see that would also make the game a bit harder, as the bigger ships would become available later.)

I was wondering about moving several of the new civics and a couple of the value founding techs (wealth and religion) to the sociology tech tree, they fit under the category better, as currently they almost seem randomly spread about the tech tree. Any thoughts on this?

I'm nearing completion on the master plan. I just need to map out the Force Fields tech tree then I'll make a few tweaks and post it here. Maybe today even.

The attached file is my plan for the new tech tree. Please look at it and please give me your feedback.

To explain my formatting:
Green: Things already in MoO2Civ
Red: Things not in MoO2Civ
Blue: Things in MoO2Civ that aren't in MoO2
Orange: New ideas I suggested
"?": I put this by everything I'm not sure about yet
Grouped items are all part of one tech (Like the techs in the beginning of MoO2)

I also put ideas next to things that weren't in MoO2Civ yet for ideas for future buildings and such.

I don't have the ship upgrades (like Titan II). I don't know if we should use them or not. MoO2 just used technology to make the ships better.

I didn't put battleships in yet because players start with the ability to build them in MoO 2, you just need a building to be able to build them (like the capital shipyard)

I think Destroyers and scouts should be a native ability too.

Edit (Feb/17/10): I added the more up to date spreadsheet to the first post.

Cool, fulano! Will have a look ASAP. ;)

Cool, fulano! Will have a look ASAP. ;)

Well, you have plenty of time to take a look, as my computer is currently dead. :rolleyes: The power supply burnt out and maybe one of the hard drives too. Hopefully in a week I'll be back. It'll give you guys lots of time to decide what will work and what won't. :)

Sorry to hear... (I've had my fair share of dead comps...) :(

Anyway, at first glance the proposed new tech tree looks OK to me - but I'll have a closer look to give a proper evaluation.

Hope you'll be able to sort the PC situation sorted out by next week. :badcomp:

I'm back! Still don't trust my motherboard to last as parts of it have stopped working due to a bad fan I'm guessing. Hopefully it will last so I don't have to spend any more money on it.

I'll probably start working on the new xml files today. I'm not sure how long it will take me yet, we'll see after I work on it a while.

That's quite alright. Glad to see you back. :thumbsup:

So far I've got the outline for the Construction tech field done. It took about an hour to do. I hope to have the rest of the outline done by Thursday next week.

If you want to see it, just put the attached techinfos.xml in your "Technologies" folder and start a new game. (Back the origional up before you test it!) You will get a LOT of errors as the game is loading. I just held the enter key for a couple seconds to skip past them all. Please everybody, tell me what you think of it if you have time.

After the outline is done all the files for units, buildings, and promotions and such will need edited to reflect the new tech names. The text files will need edited eventually but I think they still work plenty well for now. In the very long run I'd love to see screenshots from MoO2 used as the icons but I'm sure I won't get that done.

I would love it if a few people could volunteer to help with editing those files once the tech outline is done. It really will not be very hard, just a lot of finding and replacing.

Edit (Feb/17/10): I removed the attached file because it is no longer needed

Cool - will have a look tomorrow. ;)

I've got all but the last three tech fields in the file now. I've also tried to include the proper bonuses in the techinfo file to make the file as complete as I can my first time going through it to save time.

I did find and fix a bunch of errors in the techinfo file I posted earlier.

I've been researching the AI and I think I've found some ways to help it be a little more intelligent. Mostly by changing the <flavor> field. Currently all of the flavors are set to military. Are the AIs also set to only want military?

Once I get done with this first run through I'll need to go back and change the flavor and the adviser info. Also I think I want to change the AI trade value for the techs to try and make trading with the AI harder like in MoO2. Also to make it so the peaceful AIs will be less likely to help those who like fighting.

I'd still love to see feedback from anybody. Jeelen's too busy to do it all. :) Though I do appreciate your feedback too, Jeelen, when you have time for it.

EDIT (Feb/17/10): I removed the attached file because it is no longer needed

I've been researching the AI and I think I've found some ways to help it be a little more intelligent. Mostly by changing the <flavor> field. Currently all of the flavors are set to military. Are the AIs also set to only want military?


Yeah I noticed that too. The AI personalities in Civ4LeaderHeadInfos.xml have no flavors set and actually everything else is the same so they all have identical personalities. I've actually put a lot of thought into how to reproduce MoO2 personality types in civ4 but didn't get to the editing files part.

I've got all but the last three tech fields in the file now. I've also tried to include the proper bonuses in the techinfo file to make the file as complete as I can my first time going through it to save time.

I did find and fix a bunch of errors in the techinfo file I posted earlier.

I've been researching the AI and I think I've found some ways to help it be a little more intelligent. Mostly by changing the <flavor> field. Currently all of the flavors are set to military. Are the AIs also set to only want military?

Once I get done with this first run through I'll need to go back and change the flavor and the adviser info. Also I think I want to change the AI trade value for the techs to try and make trading with the AI harder like in MoO2. Also to make it so the peaceful AIs will be less likely to help those who like fighting.

I'd still love to see feedback from anybody. Jeelen's too busy to do it all. :) Though I do appreciate your feedback too, Jeelen, when you have time for it.

Good show - thanks. Will check ASAP. Keep it up! :goodjob:

Here's the completed techinfos.xml! I think I got all the bugs out but I'm sure more will be spotted.

I will now go through and edit <advisor> and <flavors>.

I am going to make up to the third column findable in goodie huts unless someone has a better idea. Maybe only the general techs should be findable in goodie huts?

Also, I think most of the hyper-advanced techs are pretty accurate on what they should do except for physics and force fields. In MoO2 they make ships stronger. I'd like it to add prestige to all new units but I don't know how that could be done. Any ideas on what to put there?

EDIT (Feb/17/10): I removed the attached file because it is no longer needed

Here's the completed techinfos.xml! I think I got all the bugs out but I'm sure more will be spotted.

I will now go through and edit <advisor> and <flavors>.

Great! :thumbsup:

I am going to make up to the third column findable in goodie huts unless someone has a better idea. Maybe only the general techs should be findable in goodie huts?

Well, as is space wrecks occasionally give a (relatively early) tech, so I should stick with that for now.

Also, I think most of the hyper-advanced techs are pretty accurate on what they should do except for physics and force fields. In MoO2 they make ships stronger. I'd like it to add prestige to all new units but I don't know how that could be done. Any ideas on what to put there?

Frankly, I don't know either - except grant additional promotions/prestige. I'm not sure how a repeating tech can do that, really. :dunno:

Suggestions anyone? :confused:

Okay, because there are SO many techs now editing the <advisor> and <flavor> values will take a long time, so I'm going to go a little slower on that project and start editing the Civ4BuildingInfos.xml to change it to the new tech names so I can feel like I'm doing something more productive to keep me motivated on this project. :)

EDIT: I'm also changing <iAITradeModifier> to at least 10 on all the military techs so the AI will be slightly less willing to trade them, so it's a little more like MoO2

That was a lot easier than I thought, to finish the building infos.

I the only file I dread is the promotion file, because of it's size. I can probably finish editing the files myself though.

Editing the rest of the files will not be long but I probably won't be done until next Thursday (the 19th). I'm going to visit my family this weekend so little will get done then.

I'll wait until I edit a few more XML's before I upload another file for you to see. Now that the buildings are in the tech tree it makes a lot more sense, so if you want to see what is happening here you can download the attached file and look at it.

I wish I had a program that can search and replace text in all the files in a folder. Anybody heard of anything like that? I could clean up a lot of stuff in this mod with such a tool and it would make my changes go a lot faster if I could change all files at once.

EDIT (Feb/17/10): I removed the attached file because it is no longer needed

I don't know of a utility to edit files simultaneously (?), but XML Marker is rather good as it includes an Error Warner: http://symbolclick.com/download.htm

I'll check the file later, as it's getting late now... :sleep:

Anyway: good job! :)

The new MoO2 tech tree is done!

I'm sure there are lots of bugs to work out, I only briefly tested it for about 100 turns.

I still need to finish editing the flavors, but that isn't as important, what I'd like to see is people testing it! Just put the files in the appropriate place. They all are in the XML folder. If you find any bugs please report them here.

Here is a summery of some of the other changes:
I also caught small bugs here and there in the units and promotions and text file and fixed those. (like the stealth III ship not being able to upgrade to stealth IV ship).

I made the astral gate piece a temporary version of the dimensional portal until more is done on that. I'm sure it needs balanced as well so if you test the space victory let me know how easy or hard it was.

Trading across space is enabled, it doesn't work between your own stars but it does work with neighbors.

I made the battleship free to research like it is in MoO2.

There is a tech for doomstar construction, we just need to add the unit

Most of the II and III versions of ships were just stuck on the Hyper-Advanced physics tech for now. I don't know where to put them and personally I'd rather they be removed and more focus shifted to the ship promotion system.

The stealth promotions were renamed to MoO2 techs, but they still work the same.

Cruisers were put in the torpedo techs with the idea that they are long range ships.

Great! :goodjob:

I also caught small bugs here and there in the units and promotions and text file and fixed those. (like the stealth III ship not being able to upgrade to stealth IV ship).

Never noticed that - hardly use advanced stealth ships myself.

I made the astral gate piece a temporary version of the dimensional portal until more is done on that. I'm sure it needs balanced as well so if you test the space victory let me know how easy or hard it was.

I don't think the Astral Gate pieces are needed if I can get the wormholes to work again. (Unless an Astral/Dimensional Gate actually leads to Antaran space, ofcourse.)

Trading across space is enabled, it doesn't work between your own stars but it does work with neighbors.

That's odd. Maybe ask deanej, he got it to work with Star Trek mod.

I made the battleship free to research like it is in MoO2.

There is a tech for doomstar construction, we just need to add the unit

OK. Shouldn't be that much of a problem.

Most of the II and III versions of ships were just stuck on the Hyper-Advanced physics tech for now. I don't know where to put them and personally I'd rather they be removed and more focus shifted to the ship promotion system.

Not quite following: they represent bigger (and better) versions; can't they just be fit in? (The upside is: less custom models will be needed, but still...) I mean the mod's not meant to be MOO while playing Civ, just a MOO-style mod; it doesn't exactly have to match MOO II (plus there's MOO and MOO III).

Anyway, if you need feedback, I suggest attaching it to post #1 (and keep that updated!). ;)

I've played up to turn 300 so far and everything's working great that I've seen. The AI really surprised me and was researching all kinds of stuff, I thought it would just stick with the cheapest every time. They also trade a ton which makes their score look huge because they have tons of useless techs. I wonder about balancing the score to give more points for higher techs.

I really like how this balances the game, it feels much better. It takes longer to get new techs which gives you time to actually put them to use rather than flying through the tech tree like before.

For some reason I didn't think of putting the ships in their own techs like everything else is... I'll get places for them all. I totally agree that we should improve upon MoO2's gameplay.

That actually could be the bonus from hyper advanced physics is to enable new upgrades of ships. It wouldn't be repeatable but I doubt many people would play the game that long.

I still want to mess with the flavors and try to get the AI to stop building so many invasion ships and infantry too. They'd be much more effective if that were the case.

Good point about editing the first post, I'll go fix that! I'll also resume work on fixing flavors, then we'll see where I go from there. I only have about six weeks of break left before I won't have much time to work on this for a while.

Good to know. ;)

I still want to mess with the flavors and try to get the AI to stop building so many invasion ships and infantry too. They'd be much more effective if that were the case.

Actually I was thinking of replacing Invasion Ships with Transports (ideally Marines/Armor/Robo-Warriors then need to be transported to another system, like in Babylon 5 mod; problem is, they then need to be immovable - as in B5 - or limited to move 1 only).

Anyway, I'll check the new tech tree in post #1 ASAP. :thumbsup:

EDIT: The zipfile itself doesn't contain installation instructions. Also, without the proper mod folders I'm afraid people may not know where to put the xml files (in XML, but in what subfolders?). Personally I can't place the Civ4ReligionInfo, as there seems to be no original for it to replace...* So, for feedback purposes it might be better to preplace the files in the properly named subfolders, then all you need to do is to put it in the MOO2civ folder - after making a backup of the XML subfolder, that is!

*Nevermind, found it in GameInfo...

Actually I was thinking of replacing Invasion Ships with Transports (ideally Marines/Armor/Robo-Warriors then need to be transported to another system, like in Babylon 5 mod; problem is, they then need to be immovable - as in B5 - or limited to move 1 only).

Oh my goodness that would be incredible I didn't even think of actually using transports to move the infantry types! That would be perfect!

Can infantry be changed to a new class of unit separate from spaceships?
Or maybe! All ships don't have the ability to capture cities (like helicopters) and you would just have to move the transport on the star you want to capture and unload the troops. I dunno, but I like the idea.



The zipfile itself doesn't contain installation instructions. Also, without the proper mod folders I'm afraid people may not know where to put the xml files (in XML, but in what subfolders?). Personally I can't place the Civ4ReligionInfo, as there seems to be no original for it to replace...* So, for feedback purposes it might be better to preplace the files in the properly named subfolders, then all you need to do is to put it in the MOO2civ folder - after making a backup of the XML subfolder, that is!


You are right about that and I really wanted to fix that when I posted, but I was out of time. Hopefully I'll get to it... at the latest mid next week but hopefully today.


Furthermore I noticed bombers and fighters SHOULD be able to be upgraded according to the XML file but for whatever reason the game won't upgrade them. Weird.

Weird indeed. I definitely remember upgrading fighters/bombers. You mean w/the new tech tree they won't? (Haven't noticed it yet, but havne't progressed beyond turn 120, so...)

As for the Transport idea: I know in B5 you can load/unload (non-movable) PDS units, but I've only seen it with uninhabited systems. As said, the problem - I think - is they have to have at least 1 move to be able to attack/defend. And for not capturing systems: Stealth units can't capture/defend systems, so that'd be perfect (without the actual stealth that is). so at present I don't yet know how to do it, but it should be possible.

Ah, about an update on the tech tree: currently there are all these identically named groupings (so you research Advanced Engineering, Advanced Engineering, Advanced Engineering), but they're actually different. How about renaming them by giving them a number (Adv. Eng. I, Adv. Eng. II, Adv. Eng III). They'd still be the same category (Advanced Engineering, just I-II-III added.)

Weird indeed. I definitely remember upgrading fighters/bombers. You mean w/the new tech tree they won't? (Haven't noticed it yet, but havne't progressed beyond turn 120, so...)
Okay, I thought I saw somebody say they won't upgrade, I don't think I could upgrade them but I'm not positive on that, I'll check it more.


Ah, about an update on the tech tree: currently there are all these identically named groupings (so you research Advanced Engineering, Advanced Engineering, Advanced Engineering), but they're actually different. How about renaming them by giving them a number (Adv. Eng. I, Adv. Eng. II, Adv. Eng III). They'd still be the same category (Advanced Engineering, just I-II-III added.)
I agree with that, and it should be done eventually, but it would be a lot of work. Especially because I want to keep using the txt_keys so other languages can be supported if someone comes around and re-translates things.

I will rename the techs once I get the flavors done.


Another question:
Somebody said it would encourage the AI to research ahead more if I use a higher <aiWeight> on each tech, like increasing by 50s. I actually think the AI did pretty well currently. It seems where I corrected the flavors the AI's were focusing on things better than where the flavors weren't changed.
Let me know if you think the AI needs more improvements on how it uses this tech tree. I just used espionage to tell what they are researching.

one more thing:
Have you thought about increasing the bonus for stronger weamons? Would that work? Like fusion 10%, mass driver 15%, neutron blaster 15%, graviton 20%?
Currently many of the promotions are useless to research because there is no way to build a ship that would use them.

Anyway, I need to go see about this trip my wife and I are planning. We might be kept home due to snow. If we do go I won't check this until next week.

one more thing:
Have you thought about increasing the bonus for stronger weamons? Would that work? Like fusion 10%, mass driver 15%, neutron blaster 15%, graviton 20%?


On the same subject, there could be some ways to make the weapons different from each other like in MoO2's. Currently many of them are just +% strength with different names.
Although they all had the same firing range MoO2 weapons had some variation in effective range. Mass based weapons had no damage dissipation from range and plasma based weapons had twice the range dissipation*.
So to mimic this range difference, in addition to the regular +% strength bonus:
all regular beam weapons could be given 1 first strike change
all mass weapons, (mass driver, gauss cannon, disrupter) could be given 1 first strike and less of a +% strength bonus than regular weapons around the same tech level.
and all plasma weapons, (fusion beam, plasma cannon, mauler device) would have no first strike but a higher +% strength bonus than regular weapons at the same tech level.

*Interesting side note: The increased range dissipation did not actually work in MoO2! I was surprised when I heard it but I did testing myself and it was true. So to make the plasma weapons actually short range like they're supposed to be, I modded the game so they couldn't use heavy mount.

On the same subject, there could be some ways to make the weapons different from each other like in MoO2's.

I was totally about to start a new thread on the subject of promotion tweaks. Actually I think I'm going to do that now.

Good idea, both of you. ;)

(And I hope you have a bon voyage, fulano!)

(And I hope you have a bon voyage, fulano!)

Oh ya, I should mention that idea was canceled because of snow. :)

That's too bad... (Actually, over here people are beginning to complain about the snow - kind of ridiculous since we hardly have had any, compared to other countries...)

See post #1.

I just zipped up the entire XML folder in case I change any other files. It also includes the origional XML files for those who want to undo the tech tree changes. Is this okay or do you think it would be better to just include the changed files like you attached above?

No, sure, that's fine. ;) (I'm removing the last zipfile then, as it's now redundant.)

v1.1b
-Added first strikes and modified the weapon promotions
-fixed more bugs, like overlaping technologies

v1.0b
-Made gold production rate 50% (that's how it is in MoO2, let me know if that's bad)
-Fixed stealth III ship not being able to upgrade to stealth IV ship
-Made the astral gate piece a temporary version of the dimensional portal (needs balanced unless actual portal gets made)
-Trading across space is enabled, it doesn't work between your own stars but it does work with neighbors.
-Removed the battleship I and destroyer I prereq tech (like in Moo2)
-Added tech for doomstar construction, we just need to add the unit
-Stealth promotions were renamed to MoO2 techs and put in tech tree (they still work the same.)
-Cruisers were put in the torpedo techs.
-Caught other small bugs here and there in the units, promotions and text file. (can't remember what)

Good show. I noticed credits flow a bit more easily with the new tech tree, but I'm not sure if that's a good thing. Perhaps set it at 25%? (I kind of liked having to really finetune budget with the previous version. But maybe other people are in favour of this change.) Also, once you get an empire going credits tend to be less of an issue, as income/research grows exponentially. (I was actually thinking of increasing cost of ships and midterm techs.)

I did notice the economy flowed super easy as things got going. There are two problems that I see causing it.
-Buildings in Civ4 don't require maintenance, but buildings cost a LOT in MoO2. Is there a way to have buildings cost gold?
-Freighters aren't used so players don't have to pay to ship food to barren planets. I think this is fine and I don't think we should worry about trying to include freighters.

I don't like changing the gold build rate to 25% because it will cause people to build research all the time instead of gold. Research is still at 100% and I don't know what it actually should be. It probably could be lowered to 50%

I think we should modify the research buildings to help fix the imbalance:
Research lab:
+5 rp +5% rp +1 culture (was +5 rp, +5% rp, +1Culture, and +1 gold)

University:
+10 rp, +5% rp, +1 culture (was +10rp, +1 culture)

Galactic Cybernet:
+15 rp, +5% rp, +1 culture (was +15 rp, +1 culture, +3 gold)

Also change, the holo simulator, pleasure dome, and virtual reality network to +20% rp instead of +20% gold.

Then if money becomes too scarce after these changes we can increase tweak the gold producing buildings.
What do you think of this?

To be honest, I think it's creating a lot of work just to get around having +50% credits generating. So I'd humbly suggest reverting to the old situation - even then in the late game credits never were/are a problem.

As to the holo simulator, pleasure dome, and virtual reality network to +20% rp instead of +20% gold, I seem to recall these were happiness-related in MoO, not credit or research (although increased happiness would ofcourse result in more credits/research).

Ah, I see where the problem is...
What I changed was the cost of the project to build gold (or trade goods in MoO2). It was set to where 100 % of the hammers (industry) was converted to gold, though MoO2 didn't do that, only 1 gold was produced for every 2 industry spent on building trade goods. It seemed to me more balanced to set the production of trade goods at the ratio.

I see.

About the latest tech tree version: Ive started one or two games and progressed beyond turn 125 (on different maps and difficulties); I'm inclined to think that both I and the AI are getting used to it and the both of us seem to get along fine with it. There don't seem to have arisen any issues, except perhaps that barb activity seems to be lower than before; I reckon it's because the races build more ships sooner and take them out as they go. (Haven't tried above Hard level - nor the Raging Barbs option -, but this seems to take care of the "wacky powerful barbarians" issue.)

Version 1.2b out!

Good to hear that it works. I am surprised how well the AI works with it, I don't think I need to change the AIWeight for each new tech level. Especially Minor Annoyance makes his changes to the leaderhead file.

Now I plan to change the descriptions and rename some of the <type> names from Final Frotier's name to MoO2Civ's name to make future editing easier.

After that all I think needs done is to fix bugs and make balance tweaks.

Take note of the doomstar unit I added. It's just a copy of the titan but with more carrying capacity, city bombard ability, and a new name. It will need balanced and new pictures and such but inserting the unit into the game is a start.

I also made the doomstar III require hyper advanced physics and force fields. Those techs are no longer repeatable.

Wow, you're way ahead of me! Adding a new Doomstar class is great. (I was thinking of replacing the Invasion Ship slots with a Transport, Doomstar and possibly a Guardian unit, but haven't gotten around to it yet.) Will check it out ASAP. :goodjob:

You might want to add to post #1 that the files should be placed in MOO2Civ/Assets/XML, just to be sure.

So the AI's use of units is bugging me, especially with all those infantry wandering around in space, and attacking with armors and destroyers instead of battleships and titans. I'm trying to learn what the different UnitAIs mean so I can fix them. I can't find a list anywhere so I'm starting a thread in the civ4 modding forum to try to get some input. Just to let you guys know

Oh, and a question, since currently infantry units are useless for attacking cities I'm going to set them as only city defenders. Will that be fine? It can always be changed later when the transport is added and they get used to attack planets.

Seems fine to me (although, to be true, a bit redundant: only the barbs use them currently to futilely attack systems). I was actually thinking of reducing all Marine/Armor/Robo-Warrior strength by -1 (they're currently hugely overpowered vs. space ships). This would also be preliminary to introducing the Transport unit (and removing the Invasion Ship class).

BTW, something I noticed earlier, but forgot to mention: there are currently multiple dead end techs (they don't link to the next advance). I don't research those now, just wait if the AI does and trade if I like the tech.

Seems fine to me (although, to be true, a bit redundant: only the barbs use them currently to futilely attack systems.)
I've had the AI attack my cities with infantry almost every time. It makes their attack fleet take 30 turns just to get to me and I usually have them killed with a starbase and bombers before they can shoot. That's mostly why I decided to go looking how to fix it.
Also, I actually have been hit by missiles quite a lot. The AI doesn't seem to use them unless I've bombed him or something to make him mad but they do at least try to use them. I bet I could tweak the UnitAI and make them used better.
I was actually thinking of reducing all Marine/Armor/Robo-Warrior strength by -1 (they're currently hugely overpowered vs. space ships). This would also be preliminary to introducing the Transport unit (and removing the Invasion Ship class).
I would rather see the infantry beat a space ship in planet combat because in MoO2 you couldn't capture a city with just space ships. I think they would still be strong enough with a -1 though because they can be produced so cheaply.
BTW, something I noticed earlier, but forgot to mention: there are currently multiple dead end techs (they don't link to the next advance). I don't research those now, just wait if the AI does and trade if I like the tech.
As far as I know there are two dead end techs in the biology group that don't advance, but that's because they are just placeholders (actually I'll disable them because they don't need to be there). I haven't seen any other techs that don't go on to the next group yet but I'm sure they're out there. If you could tell me which techs they are I'll fix them.


That just gave me an idea, what if the Elarian capital ships got a bonus against all infantry to simulate their mind control ability?? Like +100% vs infantry?

My next changes will be:
-Decrease fighter/bomber range:
fighter I & II = 3, heavy fighter = 4
bomber I & II = 4, heavy bomber = 5
-Decrease missile range to similar to bomber's range +1 (or less).
-Improve UnitAI's (specifically no attacking with infantry!)
-Disable empty biology techs
-Decrease infantry strength -1
-Fix Armor and Batteloid building dependency again (it's still not right)

(that's getting rather close to looking like another major update... :rolleyes: :) )

What if we changed the infantry <iMoves> to -3 so they can't move at all, even after being upgraded?

I tested it and it does work.

That just gave me an idea, what if the Elarian capital ships got a bonus against all infantry to simulate their mind control ability?? Like +100% vs infantry?

Ya, I see they edited the promotion schema and added a telepathic option to it. What does it do exactly? I'll admit I've no idea what the differences between races is. Maybe I should go check the civilopedia. :blush: :crazyeye:

That's easy to check on the start up screen if you mouse over all the races. I hadn't noticed the 'telepathic option', but the Elerians' telepathy should give them an edge to all personel/manned ships, not just ground forces.

I've had the AI attack my cities with infantry almost every time. It makes their attack fleet take 30 turns just to get to me and I usually have them killed with a starbase and bombers before they can shoot. That's mostly why I decided to go looking how to fix it.
Also, I actually have been hit by missiles quite a lot. The AI doesn't seem to use them unless I've bombed him or something to make him mad but they do at least try to use them. I bet I could tweak the UnitAI and make them used better.

I would rather see the infantry beat a space ship in planet combat because in MoO2 you couldn't capture a city with just space ships. I think they would still be strong enough with a -1 though because they can be produced so cheaply.

As far as I know there are two dead end techs in the biology group that don't advance, but that's because they are just placeholders (actually I'll disable them because they don't need to be there). I haven't seen any other techs that don't go on to the next group yet but I'm sure they're out there. If you could tell me which techs they are I'll fix them.

I guess that's a mid to late game thing, because I can't remember the AI attacking with Marine/Armor/Robo-Warriors (except when an invasion fleet is right next to a system of theirs).

I'll check for other dead end techs.

-Fix Armor and Batteloid building dependency again (it's still not right)

I'm not sure what you mean by this?

What if we changed the infantry <iMoves> to -3 so they can't move at all, even after being upgraded?

I tested it and it does work.

Ok, that's cool then. ;)

That's easy to check on the start up screen if you mouse over all the races. I hadn't noticed the 'telepathic option', but the Elerians' telepathy should give them an edge to all personel/manned ships, not just ground forces.
In MoO2 Elarians could capture entire planets with one battleship with their mind control ability, making troop strengths meaningless. If an additional Elarian promotion was given to battleships with +100% vs troops it could simulate their ability to wipe out troops and capture stars with ease.

I am just sharing the idea though. I don't really want to mess with balancing the races. I'd rather leave that up to someone else.

I'm not sure what you mean by this?
I was trying to make armor & battleoids require an armor barracks to be built like the marines needed the marine barracks. I didn't do it right the first some but it is now fixed in the next update I will post.

OK, cool. ;)

Here's a preliminary list of dead end techs:

- Advanced Fusion (Bombers II)
- Advanced Engineering (Anti-Missile Rockets)
- Advanced Engineering (Reinforced Hull)
- Advanced Construction (Missile Base)
- Advanced Construction (Heavy Armor)
- Advanced Metallurgy (Tritanium Armor)
- Optronics (Optronic Computer)
- Optronics (Dauntless Guidance System)
- Astro Biology (BioSpheres), as mentioned
- Astro Engineering (Fighter Garrison), as mentioned
- Robotics (Robo-Miner Plant)
- Robotics (Battlestation)
- Advanced Chemistry (Merculite Missiles)

In a number of these cases there's one of the category that leads to another tech, but the other category techs don't.

Wow, apparently you've got a much better way of checking this than I do because I didn't see any of those! Thanks!

Well, I noticed it while playtesting, so I just started taking notes.

Additional dead end techs:

- Ion Fission (Ion Pulse Cannon)
- Ion Fission (Shield Capacitators)
- Servo Mechanics (Fast Missile Racks)
- Servo Mechanics (Advanced Damage Control))
- Advanced Biology (Death Spores), the other biology tech?
- Gravitic Fields (Anti-Grav Harness)
- Artificial Intelligence (Security Stations)
- Tachyon Physics (+1 sight "across water")*
- Neutrino Physics (+1 sight "across water")*
- Positronics (Positronic Computer)
- Positronics (University)

Again, in a number of these cases there's one of the category that leads to another tech, but the other category techs don't.

*I've been thinking about this: the "space" map is actually mostly land (with Nebula as "water" that land units can't enter) with mostly land units, so I reckon "+1 sight across water" doesn't really do much. It would translate to +1 visibility across Nebula squares; I'm not sure that's very useful...

Well, I noticed it while playtesting, so I just started taking notes.

Additional dead end techs:

- Ion Fission (Ion Pulse Cannon)
- Ion Fission (Shield Capacitators)
- Servo Mechanics (Fast Missile Racks)
- Servo Mechanics (Advanced Damage Control))
- Advanced Biology (Death Spores), the other biology tech?
- Gravitic Fields (Anti-Grav Harness)
- Artificial Intelligence (Security Stations)
- Tachyon Physics (+1 sight "across water")*
- Neutrino Physics (+1 sight "across water")*
- Positronics (Positronic Computer)
- Positronics (University) Okay, I went through the list and I only saw one techs that didn't lead to the next group but the rest seemed fine. I don't understand what needed fixed with them. :confused:


*I've been thinking about this: the "space" map is actually mostly land (with Nebula as "water" that land units can't enter) with mostly land units, so I reckon "+1 sight across water" doesn't really do much. It would translate to +1 visibility across Nebula squares; I'm not sure that's very useful...I did try to ask about that a while back but I didn't explain myself clearly. I've added the sensor upgrades to those techs so you gain a sight bonus promotion as well as extra sight across nebula... better than nothing? :rolleyes:

I actually will post this latest batch of fixes in a new thread since I haven't done much with the tech tree for a while.

Okay, I went through the list and I only saw one techs that didn't lead to the next group but the rest seemed fine. I don't understand what needed fixed with them. :confused:

Well, according to my research help (What tech shall we research now?) the mentioned techs don't have a link to next tech (if they actually do have that it doesn't show up).

I did try to ask about that a while back but I didn't explain myself clearly. I've added the sensor upgrades to those techs so you gain a sight bonus promotion as well as extra sight across nebula... better than nothing? :rolleyes:

Indeed - thx! ;)

Well, according to my research help (What tech shall we research now?) the mentioned techs don't have a link to next tech (if they actually do have that it doesn't show up).I always use the Technology Adviser to choose what's next. What is the research help, is that the suggested tech to research next?

When you discover a tech, you get a pop up asking what to research next. But nevermind that, I noticed there are now 2 techs left that show up in the tech tree as not linked to a future tech:
- Advanced Fusion (Bomber II); there's no line to a future tech
- Planetoid Construction (nothing specified); there's no line to a future tech.

Everything else seems OK, except in the Civilopedia no Doom Star class ships seem to show up (nor are they shown as linked to any tech in the tech tree).

I did fix the bomber from your previous list.

As for no doomstar and planetoid construction not linking to a future tech, it makes me wonder if you're using an earlier version? Because it works on mine...

And I haven't messed with the Civilopedia at all. I have no idea what it takes to set it up properly. I noticed many things in it are automatic though. I do have a harder time getting interested in fixing things like civlopedia entries. :mischief:

EDIT: I see what you mean by not the techs not leading to another in the research popup. That is weird, I don't know why it would do that since they are connected...

As for no doomstar and planetoid construction not linking to a future tech, it makes me wonder if you're using an earlier version? Because it works on mine...

And I haven't messed with the Civilopedia at all. I have no idea what it takes to set it up properly. I noticed many things in it are automatic though. I do have a harder time getting interested in fixing things like civlopedia entries. :mischief:

Indeed. It seems I made a major boo-boo by installing in the wrong place. :blush:

EDIT: After installing in the right place everything seems A-OK. (I especially look forward to using the Invasion transports and Doomstars.) ;)

The transports are great! It's nice to have a ship to move infantry around so you can quickly defend newly conquered stars with a batch of battloids.

I also noticed the collateral damage of the invasion ships doesn't do much at all. Whenever the computer attacked me with invasion ships my marine would always loose but the rest of the marines would be unharmed. I guess they must just heal from whatever damage was done. Let me know if the damage should be increased.

Not sure. I can confirm that a Marine attacked by Invasion Ships (especially with promotions) will loose and that there is some collateral damage, but the planetary defenders (even with their current -1 strength) are pretty formidable defenders. That said, I've lost several systems to a decent invasion fleet surprise attacking me.

tuxu posted this suggestion/question on the main thread:

I was pondering about the similarities and differences between civ tech and moo tech trees.

in civ, when you get a tech - you get it all while in moo2 there can be overruns (pos\neg) for creative or dumb races.

I thought that we could simulate that effect in civ too. :D how?

we know that every leader has traits, lets say that the creative trait was a "flag" of some sort that boosts the % for extra dicoveries.

now, you are researching "Capsule Construction":
250 RP: Capsule Construction
Battle Pods
Ship Special System that increases available space in the ship by 50%.

Troop Pods
Ship Special System that doubles the number Marines it carries. Useful for performing or defending against boarding attacks; but becomes less important when moderately good shields appear, as shields block boarding raids.

Survival Pods
Achievement (no construction or ship component required) that saves any Ship Leader whose ship is destroyed, provided if at least one of your ships is present at the end of the battle (i.e. you must win for Survival Pods to work; if all your surviving ships retreat, the stranded Leaders die).


you will get 40% chance to discover each type of the pods if you are without the creative trait(Battle Pods=40%, Troop Pods=40%, Survival Pods=40%, ), when you are a dumb race you will get less(Battle Pods=30%, Troop Pods=30%, Survival Pods=30%, ) and when you are creative you will get more(Battle Pods=70%, Troop Pods=70%, Survival Pods=70%, ).

but who does this fit into civ4 engine? with "random events".

if every tech discovery would trigger a random event that would notify the player what had been discovered according to his traits we have pretty much made ourselves a moo2 tech tree system, i think... :)

thought: maybe we could kill the tech screen and completely use the random event dialog box for tech? maybe add the tech pix? maybe make a NIF file that simulates the moo2 tech dicovery screen? im trying to see if i can also make the leaders models and place them in a moo2 diplo room screen. but no promises.

if i manage to have time for it, I WILL MAEK!

tuxu posted this suggestion/question on the main thread:

Interesting, I don't know enough to use that idea yet but I will look into it after I finish what I'm currently working on.

Did they get the random events to work for Final Frontier? I remember a discussion about it being problematic in other forums... I'll have to check into it and update myself.

Thanks for the ideas, they will be checked into.

Thanks for the ideas, they will be checked into.


Well, idk what jon shefer did in FF that might bug the rand events but if i wanted to check how to do it i'd look into the FFH2 or overlord2 mods to reverse engineer whatever they did.

FF runs on the same exe as they are so i hope no big problems are encountered.

anyway, if you find a specific issue that seems to throw a wrench in our wheels tell me what it is and maybe to heads together can solve what otherwise might look impossible. :)

Here's one thread that talks about problems with random events:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=330399
That's not where I originally read about the problem but just for a heads up that the FF engine will probably give us grief at random events scripting.

Here are some more of my thoughts concerning the idea:
It would be perfect for creative and uncreative races but I don't like the idea so much for normal races. It would just make them slightly luckier versions of uncreative.

I like the current system I made in my minimod for normal races, especially because you can go back and research something that you really need later on, it didn't make sense to me that once you learn how to do something you just drop it and not apply it to anything else.

I don't know anything about random events scripting, but if you can somehow merge the two systems and keep the expanded tech tree for normal races and other races get a chance to obtain the new techs like you described I think it would be great!

I only have time to work on things here until the beginning of April where school ends and I will be too busy to do more work until the fall. That's part of the reason I'm making so many changes so quickly for my minimod so I can finish it before I get too busy.

EDIT: Oops, double posted

Here's one thread that talks about problems with random events:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=330399
That's not where I originally read about the problem but just for a heads up that the FF engine will probably give us grief at random events scripting.why not change the engine then? FFH2 might be a great infra afaik, if the creators would allow us to use it.

Here are some more of my thoughts concerning the idea:
It would be perfect for creative and uncreative races but I don't like the idea so much for normal races. It would just make them slightly luckier versions of uncreative. Essentially they are, as in moo2, no? maybe a failed tech could be re-researched, idk, i don't find the idea of being able to reaserch everything because then the game would fall into a more liniar pattern in which you always go for the same things and those would be practically guarantied. the *luck&handicap* system makes sure that the aproach for tech would be inhereted directly from moo2, methinks...

I like the current system I made in my minimod for normal races, especially because you can go back and research something that you really need later on, it didn't make sense to me that once you learn how to do something you just drop it and not apply it to anything else.Understandable, but that means that the role of spies is greatly diminished, I remember games in moo2 that I've practically didn't need to research anything - my spies just torrented the galactic inturnetz for me, lol. and on moo3 i was once threatened by a big psilon armada, one which was decimated by my saboteurs and later finished off by my small fleet. Tech handicap due to failed research was one of the gameplay backbones and i would hate to see it dissolved.

I don't know anything about random events scripting, but if you can somehow merge the two systems and keep the expanded tech tree for normal races and other races get a chance to obtain the new techs like you described I think it would be great! I'm currently over my head in textures and models and my own job but I'll consider that as a priority

I only have time to work on things here until the beginning of April where school ends and I will be too busy to do more work until the fall. That's part of the reason I'm making so many changes so quickly for my minimod so I can finish it before I get too busy. I hear you man, i suffer from a similar condition :)

<filler>

Also, deanej succesfully (re)introduced events in his FF-based Star Trek mod at some point, so he might know some answers..

Making spies more valuable is a great point. I do like making the game more diverse instead of only researching the same thing. One way of heping this is adding lots of dimensions like culture, armies, spies, religion, etc.

Also I think it is a great gameplay attribute for an underhanded guy to be able to undermine a stronger guy. Currently in Civ4 and MoO2 civ it's hard to catch up once you fall behind! That's one thing that old games like Starcraft 1, Age of Empires II, Red Alert 1 did excellently is that each unit had something it was weak against and something it was strong against so everything was useful and you could counter enemy armies and still beat them even if they were stronger. I'm starting to like your idea here even more, I'm not sure if I'll be able to help but I'd like to see it happen.

Currently I'm going to finish the promotion rework and changing icons then we'll see from there, I'd like to take some time to actually play the mod for a while. :)

You know, after more playing, I'm leaning away from the normal races not getting to choose what they can have.

I like the normal method of researching for the normal races because first, you get what you choose (as you should). Second, it is easier for new people to learn. Third, as you learn the game you can use spies to do even better.

I'm still going to look into what random events can do though.