World = standard, Wet, Warm, 5 Billion, large continents
Difficulty = Monarch
Barbarians = Roaming.
# Civs = 8
NOT culturally linked, NO restarting players.
Civ = Ottoman, I want 8-3-3 cavalry!
All victory conditions are enabled.

Signed up:
LKendter


STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Mandatory requirement - Play The World Expansion


The following tactics are NOT allowed in the LK series games: RoP Rape, RoP Abuse (irrigating all tiles with a city building wonders), Resource Denial (via RoP), False Peace Treaties (must wait for the 20 years to end), Declaring War to break trade deals, False Alliances (ally with several people vs. a civ then peace with that civ), and other actions that completely abuse the AI limited diplomacy ability.

Can't Bring yourself to start with a Regent Game! :lol: Would like to play but I know my limits. Interested in seeing the differences. I am assuming you will have the new patch Lee?

Hotrod

Yes, I have the new patch.

Come on - Monarch isn't that different, except don't expect tech leader to be as easy.

Plan to install tomorrow. Okay sign me up but I will be gone all next week.

I have actually won on Monarch a couple times and even my Epic 14 Monarch Always War game with the Greeks no less. :lol:.

Hotrod

Signed up:
LKendter
hotrod0823 (vacation 11/4 to 11/9)

I'll play. Although this would be my first SG game if no one minds.

Signed up:
LKendter
hotrod0823 (vacation 11/4 to 11/9)
GrandMasta Nick
Actually your 2nd - LK33 does count, even if it is a different format then most.

Lee: I'd love to play - if I'm lucky I'll get PTW soon - maybe I can step in then? End of next week maybe?

Signed up:
LKendter
hotrod0823 (vacation 11/4 to 11/9)
GrandMasta Nick
Lt. 'Killer' M. (possible?)
Is Mirarmar in the US? I don't know if PTW has been release outside of our borders yet - I do know you see to be several hours ahead of me. Let me know ASAP when you will get PTW. I have to give priority to those who have the game now if that will start the game.

Now that I have things pretty settled here (new house etc...), I have time now to play ONE succession game.

Not sure if Monarch is getting too easy for me now, might want to think about raising the level to Emporer...

Anyway, count me in :)

Lee: Miramar is in the US, but my being there is a joke (bit of an insider).....

sabo10 offer to mail me the game to germany :D

Lee, I will play, but the stores here are not scheduled to get PTW until tomorrow (so they say). Put me down as possible, awaiting the arrival of a copy.

It looks like you have enough players so I'll be on deck. I will have PTW this weekend at the latest.

LKendter
hotrod0823 (vacation 11/4 to 11/9)
GrandMasta Nick
Arizona_Steve
Lt. 'Killer' M. (possible?)
Meldor (possible?)
Mystery13 (possible?)
The first possible to CONFIRM purchase of the game will get the 5th spot.
I plan to start another in a week or 2.

(0) 4000 BC - Mooooooo [dance]
After moving - MORE Mooooooo and wheat [party]
MAJOR SETTLER FACTORY [dance]


(1) 3950 BC - Instanbul is formed. Science to pottery, is there really anything else?


(6) 3700 BC - A barracks placeholder is ordered.


(11) 3450 BC - Border expansion shows another wheat for the next city. :)


(12) 3400 BC - Pop the goody hut - angry barbs.
(I) Angry barbs don't attack? :confused:
Next science project is temples.


(13) 3350 BC - Granary in 14 more turns.


(15) 3250 BC - WTH? - Why are the barbs ignoring our warrior? I kill one, but have 1 hp left.
They are heading toward our capital, so I reconfigure the capital to get the granary ASAP.


(18) 3100 BC - The barbs reappear by our warrior? I kill the second of three.
(I) I order a warrior in Istanbul.


(20) 3000 BC - I finally kill the third warrior, and still no promotion.
(I) Our other civs are Celts, Japan, China, English, Arabs, Carthaginians, and Germans.


(22) 2900 BC -
(I) Research begins on the wheel


(26) 2710 BC -
(I) Settler completes, another is ordered.


(28) 2630 BC - The Harappan tribe teaches us Warrior Code [dance]


(31) 2510 BC - Erdine is formed - on a river, with a game next to it.
Warrior is ordered, and 2 nearby huts are revealed.
(I) A worker is ordered.


(34) 2390 BC - Bursa is formed - I hate wasting a bonus grassland, but it makes the city coastal.
We may need the ability to ship build to other continents.
I order a warrior to start.


(36) 2310 BC -
(I) We need to get off this landmass, I order up Alphabet to start toward Map Making.


(37) 2270 BC - We have a source of horses. A goody hut gives us useless maps.


(38) 2190 BC - Iznik is formed - it can share the cow with the capital, a coastal city, and whales / game after temple is built. I pop another goody hut - $25 in cash.


(39) 2150 BC - I pop the other goody hut by Erdine - angry barbs.
(I) The Istanbul baby factory produces yet another settler - another worker is ordered.




Summary - I know, I played WAY more then 20. Hey, new civs are addicting ;)
I won't exceed 20 from now on.

MM Instanbul well, and expand like crazy. We may be the ONLY civ on this landmass.

The angry barbs logic is way different then the original game!




Signed up:
LKendter
hotrod0823 (vacation 11/4 to 11/9) (playing)
GrandMasta Nick (on deck)
Arizona_Steve
Lt. 'Killer' M. (possible?)
Meldor (possible?)
Mystery13 (possible?)
The first possible to CONFIRM purchase of the game will get the 5th spot.

20 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Our starting position, and the next 2 city sites - BOTH fresh water, and red dot includes wheat to irrigate.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LAK-175.jpg


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LK34-2110BC.zip

Got it and will play ten tonight

LK 34 - PTW

2110 BC (0): Check out the scene and make no changes.

IBTWN: Barbs attack and warrior promotes. Palace expansion.

2070 BC (1): Brusa builds warrior and starts granary. See cows on red dot, also see light blue boarder to the East, it is not far from the red dot. Change Istanbul to settler and change Brusa to worker, we may not be all alone after all.

2030 BC (2): Contact China, they have Alphabet, IW, and Mysticism. Will not trade.

1990 BC (3): Edrin build warrior and start granary. Settler arrives at yellow dot, warrior will meet up soon. MM Istanbul again, grow and settler next turn.

1950 BC (4): Settler built start another. Found Uskudar. Start temple. Not sure how but we have contact with england, they have all China's tech plus writing, they have contact with Japan. Both have writing and contact with Japan, each will trade alphabet for 14 gold. I trade with England 13 gold for alphabet, we were 2 turns away. MM Istanbul again. Begin researching Iw.

1910 BC (5): Bursa builds worker start another. See a settler/archer pair inside china heading west. Have a couple warriors hopefully blocking there progress.

1870 BC (6): Well settler from china is head SW, maybe it worked, settler will be at red dot in 3 turns. IW due in 9 with -1 gpt, lux at 30%. Settler due in 2 turns.

1830 BC (7): The race is on to red dot, turns out ther is a cow too. See a barb camp to the south. China settler continues W.

1790 BC (8): Istanbul builds another settler, start another. Sending this settler to the western gems.

1750 BC (9): Found Izmit at red dot, warrior move on to city square start temple.

1725 BC (10): Bursa builds worker, start granary. Disperse barb camp +25 gold. Sending warrior escorts west.

IBTw: China settler/archer continue moving Sw. Palace expansion.

1700 BC (11): more settler movement, decide to use edrine for vet troops change to barracks, due in 2 turns. Buy IW from England for 40 gold. We were still 3 turns away at -18 for research per turn. Start research on writing.

1675 BC (12): Another Istanbul settler built, start another. More MM. Heading to NE Gems. Nearest Iron is to the south of red dot, china settler is already here another is to the SW, will send current settler to claim it.

1650 BC (13): Edrine builds Barracks start on vet spearman.

1625 BC (14): move settlers to respective spots, not quite sure on best Iron location yet, see a hut in the area.

IBWN: China settler finally founds there city on the coast with fish and iron.

1600 BC (15): Need to look around for my next 2 city spots. I dot mapped it and looks like the iron itself is the best spot, some overlap but no wasted bonus grasslands. Looks like some Iron way out west too, I missed it before.

1575 BC (16): Settler movement, some worker actions.

1550 BC (17): First vet spear, sent to Istanbul. start another. Build Aydin in the hill by NE gems. Start temple.

1525 BC (18): build Antalya and pop hut, get 50 gold. Start temple. City founded on iron. Warrior fortifies. People want a Forbidden palace already! English start Oracle. China the Pyramids.

1500 BC (19): More worker movement.

1475 BC (20): England has a worker but won't sell it, Sullla will be happy :lol: we hav 65 gold to offer too.

Buy Writing from China for 15 gold, he is now Polite. Took a minute but built an embassy in China for 31 gold. They are building pyramids in a size 1 city with only 3 shields. Start research on Lit. due in 15 turns. An embassy with England will cost 41 gold.

China has Mysticism, and contact with Japan. They are Polite with 43 gold. Only 3 other cities.
England who I have no idea where they are has: Mysticism contact with Japan and 47 gold, and that worker. And only 2 cities after London.

Istanbul can crank out settlers and never drop below size 5. Once granary is built in Bursa that can build all the workers, Edrine can continue to build spears. We are lacking for troops at the moment but barbs haven't been at problem, There are 2 settlers out one has an escort. After the temple is built in Iznik I recommend some miltary to fill the cities for the moment. Lux is at 30%, research at 50 with lit due in 15.




1475 BC (http://civfanatics.net/uploads2/LK34_1475BC.zip) http://civfanatics.net/uploads2/lk34dot1.jpg

I can't believe how close China was and I didn't find them! I finally find out we can buy the worker for $118 - #@$@!#$@$@#$ - They just made it very expensive to get no cost workers. I can buy Mysticism or Communications with Japan for less then that. WTF? A worker that cost more then a tech?
THIS BLOWS - One of the best things you could do was buy workers, and it just became cost prohibitive early in the game when they would help the most. BITE ME - Fixaris.


Signed up:
LKendter
hotrod0823 (vacation 11/4 to 11/9)
GrandMasta Nick (playing)
Get us a city near Nanking and claim those silks - we might even flip Nanking if we can get a third city around it.
Arizona_Steve (on deck)
Lt. 'Killer' M. (possible?)
Meldor (possible?)
Mystery13 (possible?)
The first possible to CONFIRM purchase of the game will get the 5th spot.

20 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Originally posted by LKendter
They just made it very expensive to get no cost workers. I can buy Mysticism or Communications with Japan for less then that. WTF? A worker that cost more then a tech?
THIS BLOWS - One of the best things you could do was buy workers, and it just became cost prohibitive early in the game when they would help the most. BITE ME - Fixaris.

Actually this is some of the best news I have heard about the expansion to date. :) Buying up those workers was "good" because it crippled the AI civs in their early growth, to the point where a game with bought workers could not even be compared to one where that didn't take place. Simply put, an AI civ should NEVER trade away its last worker, and they would be willing to do so for practically nothing in return. Greatly increasing the cost of workers is an indication that Firaxis is aware of this loophole in the AI programming and has fixed it. :goodjob:

I agree with Sulla, Firaxis needed to do something to fix the worker buy problem. The ability to buy the AI civs workers very early in the game was quite unbalanced -- not in the benefits you got from buying the worker, but from the damage you did to the AI civs you bought from. Having to build your own workers at the very start of the game is not so bad a price to pay to take that off the table at the very start of the game.

Also, when you think about it, $118 is not unreasonable for buying even a half-strength worker when you compare it to the cost of maintaining a worker for the amount of time left in the game at this point (assuming you are at the unit cap for your government.) Still, if Firaxis was really clever they would apply the law of supply and demand to worker prices -- as the number of workers a civ has goes up, the price to buy goes down. That might be more programming than they thought would be worth it, however.

Hey, the price for the worker is fine! It was too easy before.

Any room for one more?

CG

Got it

Just wanted to get some input from the team before pressing on. Do you think that we should continue to reasearch or get cantact with the Japanese and by our techs from the AI. Or maybe get Lit and then buy. I don't want to mess this up so I am a little reluctant to go on without your opinions.

I have got my copy of the expansion and will install it when I get home.

[EDIT] I have it installed and I am downloading the patch now. It may be more fair to Killer if he gets the spot, if he gets the game installed before the turn comes up. However, as always the final chioce is up to Lee.

One we get contact with Japan, I think it will be easier to buy techs. We have NO pressing need for a tech edge at the moment.

@meldor - we will have to see who owns PTW when round #5 comes up to make the final decision.

meldor: thanx for the fairness - but I'm out - my plan on how to get PTW fast failed :( Thanx to sabo10 I may still get it faster then via EBGames :D - and cheaper......

Signed up:
LKendter
hotrod0823 (vacation 11/4 to 11/9)
GrandMasta Nick (playing) (i/p)
Arizona_Steve (on deck)
Meldor

20 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

0: Take istanbul off of one of the cows and let iznit use it, settler in 4 growth in 4. Drop lux down to 20 to get 3gpt with no civil disorder. Contact with japanese for 3gpt and 18 gold. Japan gives us Mystcism and 6gold for writing and 2gpt. science to 0. change izmit, antaiya and aydin to worker.
1: Make settler wait in iznik for escort(i've lost way too many to barbs in my games.
2:
3: Pop goody hut, get 5o gold. Get map making and territory map from mao for 109 gold and 2gpt and world map. Map making to japan for 42 gold and their wold map. World map to england for 45 gold and world map. World map to china for world map and 35 gold. We now have 122 gold:) lux to 0
4:
5: lose scouting warrior to barb camp.
6:
7:
8: got gems on-line
9: contact with germany from china for world map and 70 gold. world map and 80 gold from germany for world map alphabet and communications with the japanese. 55 gold and world map from china for world map. same thing with england. 12 gold (all they had) and world map from japan for world map. I did the deal with japan because they would probably the world map anyways, so we might as well get 12 gold out of it. We now have 340 gold:)
10: Put istanbul back on the cow. Disperse barb camp with archer 25 gold. Konya formed
11: Map making for horseback riding with germany.
12:
13:
14: Adana formed

Umm well the date looks kinda funny. I think that i may have accidentaly not posted a few turns so this is were i hand it over to whoevers next.

I wasn't sure about buying tech when i started the game but tried it any ways and I am very happy with the results. we now have tech parody and have 422 gold with 17gpt.

@GrandMasta Nick

FYI - for future turns, please use LK34-YEAR.zip For those of use that play in multiple games, that is to short of a description.

tech parody
Uh, do you mean tech parity? I certainly hope our tech isn't a joke


LKendter
hotrod0823 (vacation 11/2 to 11/8)
GrandMasta Nick
Arizona_Steve (playing)
Meldor (on deck)

20 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

pardun my ingles

Playing now...

Inherited Turn - 1150BC

Quick survey of things - luxuries at 10% - this can be dropped to 0% when Istanbul pops it's settler. Zero science, researching literature. F7 shows that no-one is constructing the Great Library, so I make plans to get this. Science up to 40% to get literature in 25 turns (it's also not that high on the AI priority list, so there might be a chance to broker it around for more techs). Best city for the library looks like Edrine - no shields allocated to the spear being built there, so I swap to temple to expand the borders and get another 2 shielded grasslands within it's radius.
We have iron connected, and horses near uskudar awaiting connection. A second source of horses exists outside Antalya - we need to grab these for future trading opportunities.
It turns out we're at the beginning of the turn. It's customary to save the game when the "hit enter to continue" appears.
A settler / spearman is already in position, although I'm not convinced about the city location. One square East and it's on the coast, one South East and it no longer overlaps with Konya and is located on a hill for defense. I choose the coastal location, as we can fill the interior in with other cities more efficiently.
Two workers are outside our territory near Antalya. I move them to separate squares (more efficient, until there are roads in the squares) within our borders.
There's a settler / spearman pair near Edrine - I'm going to use them to snag a third field of horses from under the noses of the Chinese.
Edrine fortifies a second defender. Since it's our Great Library city, I need to ensure that it won't riot at size 6.
Move workers, change Iznik from worker to granary, as it's purpose appears to be worker factory.
Barbarian appears from barb camp NW of Ayrdin.

(1) 1125BC

Literature drops to 20 turns. Someone must've got it. Check foreign advisor screen, but only Code of Laws is available from the English. Hmmm.
Sinop founded next to wheat. Temple ordered up. Spearman fortifies.
Istanbul builds settler, starts another.
Barb horsie appears outside Ayrdin. Uh-oh. We only have a warrior there. Production changed to Spearman, but will be too late if the barbs decide to attack.

(2) 1100BC
300 gold plus horseback riding buys us Code of Laws from the English. Besides the benefits of courthouses, it reduces the amount of gold that the barbs can take from us.
Code of Laws and 70 gold to China for Literature (strange, it wasn't there last turn).
Edrine switched to Great Library, due in 48 turns. Zero science restored. Luxuries reduced to zero also.
Sheesh - where did the barbs go? The new barb AI takes some getting used to!

(3) 1075BC
Aaaargh! An automated worker heads straight for the barbs (fortunately they're out of range). NO AUTOMATING WORKERS!!! Grrrrr!
Bursa trains a worker, starts another. Iznik changed from granary to barracks. It's better off as a military factory.
Reassigned tiles around Edrine. Same shield output, more growth.

(4) 1050BC
Workers assigned new tasks.
Kafa founded next to more horses, library ordered (cheaper, more culture to guard against a flip to China - we already have a spearman there). Once this is hooked up to our empire we will have a trade route into China. A Chinese worker is already helping us out in that regard :)
Chinese archer wanders into our territory.

(5) 1025BC
Istanbul riots. Luxuries to 10%. Ugh!

(6) 1000BC
Order restored at Istanbul, and a settler appears the same turn. Another ordered, we still have land to grab.
Ayrdin gets it's spearman. The warrior there is dispatched to frag the barb camp.
Ankara founded - another first ring city.
Luxuries back to zero.

(7) 975BC
MMOW (More movement of workers).
Uskadar completes granary, starts barracks. We are hurting for military.

(8) 950BC
MMOW

(9) 925BC
The barb camp is destroyed by our warrior.
Philosophy from Germany for 100 gold. Bizzie is STILL annoyed. I hold on selling Literature to the two civs that don't currently have it.
Our barb-busting warrior is killed by a barb. An archer is on his way to stamp them out for good.


(10) 900BC
Luxuries to 10% to prevent disorder in Edrine.
MMOW

(11) 875BC
Barb warrior is destroyed by our archer. One horsie left.
MMOW

(12) 850BC
Salonika founded. Gems will be in range once it's border expands. Spearman ordered.
China has Mathematics. And we have a trade route. Iron goes their way. 50 gold plus Mathematics comes ours.
Since everyone except Japan has literature, I sell it to him for 42 gold + world map. No-one else has started the Great Library as yet.
I set a lone scientist at Sinop researching republic (government techs are prohibitively expensive, and we need a contingency plan if we fail to get the Great Library).
I spoke too soon - Germany starts the Great Library.

(13) 825BC
Check F7 - The Germans are building the Great Library in Berlin, which is size 2! :lol:
MMOW

(14) 800BC
MMOW

(15) 775BC
Territory map swap with China. They also start the Great Library.

(16) 750BC
MMOW

(17) 730BC
Move spearman in Adana to cover worker who is connecting the silks as a barb horsie wanders next to him.

(18) 710BC
Mugla founded.

Notes:
Great Library being built at Edrine - due in 29 turns.
Bursa is our worker factory and has been steadily churning them out throughout my turn.
Istanbul has done nothing except produce settlers.
I now have barracks in Uskudar and Iznik - both are set to produce military.
There's a lone scientist working on Republic in Sinop. This is contingency against losing the Great Library in a cascade.
Adana has no defender - the worker connecting the silks is more important than the city right now. A spearman is due to complete there next turn however.


LK34 - 710BC (zip file) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LK34_710BC.zip)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LK34_001.jpg

(5) 1025BC
Istanbul riots. Luxuries to 10%. Ugh!
OUCH - no more riots please. This it our ONLY cities building settlers.

Aaaargh! An automated worker heads straight for the barbs (fortunately they're out of range). NO AUTOMATING WORKERS!!! Grrrrr!
I agree 100% - worker automation except pollution cleanup is NOT allowed in LK games.

We need a couple of military sources ASAP - building spearman in 1/1 cities like Adana is not good. That city should be building a temple help flip surrounded Nanking taking away a source of Iron from China.

Next city site - The cows by Salonika, that city will be productive.

LKendter (on deck)
hotrod0823 (vacation 11/2 to 11/8)
GrandMasta Nick
Arizona_Steve
Meldor (playing)

20 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Science up to 40% to get literature in 25 turns (it's also not that high on the AI priority list, so there might be a chance to broker it around for more techs).

I wouldn't count on previous civ 3 experience to guide you on what the AIs will do now, I installed PTW 2 days ago and was messing around with it today. Egypt beelined for Lit. or got it from a goody hut, hard to say from 1 game, but with the changes in the barbarian behavior, and the value the AI places on workers, I wouldn't be surprised to see alot more changes in the way the AI approaches the game over past civ 3 games.

I don't remember puting a worker on atomation, since i have never done this in any of my games. If anything it was a goto command and I am sorry about that.

got it

I'm trying a Deity game on PTW right now (Trying to get onto the DSG succession games), and noticed a couple of things...

(1) The barbarian AI - there's been comments here about this. They seem to ignore units in the vicinity, perferring instead to either head straight for cities or just wander around aimlessly.

(2) The AI is mining more. This is sure to make them harder to beat, as they have always over-irrigated in the past. Great for population, terrible for production. I've not checked yet to see if they are using luxury tax as opposed to entertainers.

Wish me luck on this exercise... :)

710 BC (Pre-turn)
Libraries are cheaper and give more culture, so in those cities that are going to try and flip neighbors, libraries come first, then temples for happines. Salonika, citizen working road tile without mine, changed to road tile with mine. The extra shield is lost to corruption but when in grows in 4, the third shield won't be lost. A worker is clearing forest between the capital and Edrine. The capital is set for growth in 3 and a settler in three. The shields from the forest will get settler in two but waste six shields. A little re-arranging and we have settler in 2, growth in 2 and only two wasted shields. Both options waste 2 food. Edrine is changed to shave 2 turns off the Great Library. This slows its growth from 2 turns to 4, but until the silks come on line in three turns, this citizen would have to be an entertainer. Shift warrior from interior town to town on outskirts.
(I) Library at Izmit start temple. Barb horseman appears outside of Adana, we will be pillaged before the warrior can get there.

690 BC (1)
Why does Istanbul have 2 un-used BG while 3 plain grass have mines on them? We must do something about that. Also, move some workers working at corrupt 1 citizen towns with 3 mines, to help bring irrigation to the pennisula.
(I) Pillage cost us the current work, but no cash.
Settler finished and heading for jungle.

670 BC (2)
Boredom.
(I) Spear completes in Uskudar, will make nice settler escort. Silks hooked up so we will have to do a little MM.

650 BC (3)
More fun.
(I) Start Galley in Konya. Growth in Edrine now useful and shaves more turns off of the GL, now due in 19.

630-550 BC (4-8)
MMOW. Found cow city.
(I) English begin GL English complete the Oracle. Japan starts the GL

530 BC (9)
Establish embassy with Japanese, mainly to see how bad the casacade will hurt us. They have the GL in 19. Get embassy in Berlin, they will complete in 42 turns. Shaved turns are looking better, we get it in 14. England is building in London, it will be 30+ turns for them. China is building in a city with only 4 improved squares and working them give only 4 shields per turn. We might keep an eye on Kyoto for growth. I would hate to lose it by one turn.

510-470 BC (12)
(I) Chinese land settler warrior pair in frozen north

450 BC (13)
Found Bolu in the frozen north. Send spears from Aydin to try and harass the chinese pair.

430 14
(I) Chinese found city.

410 15
(I) Bizzie comes demanding too much, tell him to shove it, he declares war.

390 16
140g to China and Japan for alliance vs Germany. 40g to England for same. That should isolate them and give them something to think about. It will also slow our neighbors down. Found Meldor's Thief right next to Japanese city, claiming some dyes for us. Upgrade two warriors to swords (remember they are no longer dead end units) and switch three towns to produce some horses.
(I) The people love war and expand the palace.

370-310 BC (17-20)
Nada

GL in three.
There are two settlers on the way to found a couple of jungel towns. We could use a third and then probably should turn the capital to more building than settlers. No sign of Germans. Hopefully we can build up quitely, wait for Chinese army to be mostly in Germany or on the way there, and then when the alliance expires.......Mao Burgers, Baby....Yeah!

LK 34 310 BC Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LK34_310BC.zip)

Good move on the alliances meldor. Who is up next?

(0) 310 BC - I personally don't bother with the Great Library except for always war. However, with just 3 turns to go I leave it alone. However, I can increase growth without delaying the project.
:confused: I find irrigation paths with mines between them?

(2) 270 BC - Bingol is formed, and orders a library. I want the Chinese city to flip someday.
I realize we can get the Pyramids - much better then the GL.
(I) We get the Pyramids.

(3) 250 BC - I purchase Polytheism for $162. I can tell we have the only galley out there; I get a few bucks for wm.

(5) 210 BC - Riza is formed. We may as well claim as much jungle as possible - who know where rubber / coal could appear.

(7) 170 BC -
(I) Kyoto completes the Great Library.

(8) 150 BC -
(I) England / Germany peace treaty.
German starts the great wall and completes it the same turn! Must a GL cascade.
Massive Barbarian warning!

(9) 130 BC - Zonguldak is formed - we continue to claim the jungle.


(10) 110 BC - I buy currency for $238 from England. I then buy Construction from China for Currency and $62.

(12) 70 BC - ARGGGGG - Japan beats me to the wine spot.

(13) 50 BC -
(I) I begin token research on Engineering - that tends to come in much last of the early MA techs.
The revolt to Republic begins. GACK - I draw 6 turns on Anarchy.

(14) 30 BC - Our troops arrive at the site of the "massive" barbs, and find 1 warrior in a barb camp.

(17) 30 AD - I sign a RoP with China so that we can explore the sea around his coast.

(20) 90 AD - The Ottoman Republic is formed. Meldor's thief rushes a library.
Kirklareli is formed, gaining more jungle and another dye.
Hannover is auto-razed, we kill 3 units losing none.
Rush library in Zonguldak.

Summary - The Erdine palace is a PRE-BUILD for one of the MA wonders, whichever one we can snag.
Our alliance vs. Germany can be cancled, GMN can decide how far to pursue the war.
Germany is hurting and will give us $168 for peace.

LKendter
hotrod0823 (vacation 11/2 to 11/8)
GrandMasta Nick (playing)
Arizona_Steve (on deck)
Meldor

20 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LK34-2110BC.zip

Check out the new graphics for a razed city!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LAK-176A.jpg


Our wine gambit town:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LAK-177.jpg
If we build it - rush a library, and a temple to protect if from a flip.

Lee,

Two items:
1) I am sorry to see that you went away from the Great Library. Just in your turn alone it had already cost us 460+g and put us at least three turns behind going into the next age (as detgermined by the barb uprising when the second civ crossed). The granaries in every city is nice, but most cities sit at either 6 or 12 for long periods and threrfore don't get much benefit from the granary except early when growing and later when hospitals are coming. I think this points out a major difference jin our playing styles, which is what makes these SGs so much fun.
2) The mystery chain of irrigation was done by me. I cleared a forest, boith to get the shields and to get irrigation over to a wheat (and some of those will help in the current government). When the forest was cleared it was a BG, so I irrigated it long enough to start irrigation on the next square and then mined it. I was a better choice than other options.

I also left the settler up in the north to give you the option of what you cared to do with it. It was only a couple of turns of lost movement or a couple of shields oin a city that would need mostly rushed buys to be of any affect.

Sorry guys i think that i am going to have to opt out of this game. I am really busy with 4 different PBEMs and I just got a new job. Sorry, I don't think that you will have much trouble replacing me at least.:)

Guess that means I'm up again. Due to G/F considerations, I will probably take the full 48 hours here.

I have PTW patched and ready if you need me to come off the bench.

@Meldor - We all have different ideas on how to play the game.
I have hit the point that I don't even bother with ancient era wonders except for OCC and Always War with the Great Library. I agree that we took a cash hit, but have become dedicated to the motto "Population = Power", and will do everything possible to add population.


LKendter
hotrod0823 (vacation 11/2 to 11/8)
Arizona_Steve (playing)
Meldor (on deck)
Mystery13 - Welcome aboard

20 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Lee, you had the 2110BC file in your link there. I found the 90AD file in the uploads, so no worries...

EDIT: Played 8 turns last night...

Lots of courthouses and aquaducts being built.
Libraries rushed in outlying cities where there is the possibility of a culture flip.
The chinese city of Xinjan flipped to us.
The German city of Munich was razed.

More later...

(0) 90AD:
Lee leaves me with Izmit in disorder. Luxury tax has been upped to compensate however, and all should be well when I hit the space bar.
We still have gaps in our land to fill. Three settlers should do it, the first one will complete (in Istanbul) in two turns. Once this is filled, I guess we continue crowding Japan out.
Ankara is switched to aquaduct to enable growth beyond it's current six citizens, and set to optimal gold/shield combination. Optimized shields and gold in other size 6 cities without aquaducts.

(1) 110AD
China has Monarchy for sale at an outrageous price. I decline for now, although it would be good to pick this up at some point just in case. We also have 16 turns of ROP with them, I intend to use this for some exploring.
We have troops moving on Germany. They want peace, but have little to offer.

(2) 130AD
Karabuk founded. Library ordered.
Regroup horsemen for attack on next German city.

(3) 150AD
MMOW
The Chinese city of Xinjan flips to us. Library ordered up.

(4) 170AD
Poor RNG luck - six horsies attempt to take Munich - size 4, guared by 2 spearmen. Three killed, two retreat, one spearman killed. Ugh!
Japan now has Monarchy.
More courthouses and aquaducts are started.

(5) 190AD
Cankiri founded, spearman ordered.
Library rushed at Karabuk.
Germany offloads a horseman behind Adana.

(6) 210AD
I move one worker out of range of the German horsie.

(7) 230AD
Library rushed in Xinjan.
Lots of borders expand.

(8) 250AD
Munich is burned to the ground (finally!).

(9) 260AD
Peace treaty signed with Germany. We get Feudalism for 20 gold as part of the deal.
Feudalism and 50 gold to China for Monarchy.
Edrine switched to Sun Tzu's (this should keep Lee 'warmonger' Kendter happy). Due in 27 turns.
Our lone scientist at Sinop disappeared to the mines. He's reinstated.
Steve's Hideaway founded.
Disorder in four cities. Did the citizens not like me signing a peace treaty?

(10) 270AD
Scientist at Sinop moved to Mugla.
Luxury tax to 40%
Order should be restored when the spacebar is hit.

LK34 - 270AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LK34_270AD.zip)

Sounds good, I will grab it this PM.

The Chinese city of Xinjan flips to us. Library ordered up. [dance]
Always good news, however I thought Nanking would be the victim.

Edrine switched to Sun Tzu's (this should keep Lee 'warmonger' Kendter happy). Due in 27 turns.
Free barracks, indestructible barracks, automatic barracks in captured cities, barracks into hopelessly corrupt cities with wasting shields, easy mass upgrades and 100% vet troops. OK, maybe somewhat of a warmonger this. However, even in a peaceful game DON'T let the AI get this advantage.

Disorder in four cities. Did the citizens not like me signing a peace treaty?
YES, if the AI declares war on you, the people initially rally behind you - a negative WW.

Izmit can get 14 useful shields with MM to take advantage of shields. Mine some plains, and that number will go up. The MA wonders rush is beginning, I would like to get some more.

We REALLY want Smith's now - it also pays for the new revenue boasting Commercial Dock and Stock Exchange.

:goodjob: Feudalism and effectively Monarch for peace - Nice going.

I didn't think you had WW in despotic governments.....

LKendter
hotrod0823 (vacation 11/2 to 11/8)
Arizona_Steve
Meldor (playing - already a got it!)
Mystery13 (on deck)


@Arizona_Steve - Do you have the autosave from the turn before and after the peace treaty? I am now curious if I am :smoke:

My mistake....I missed the switch to republic. We will indeed have WW.

@Lee - No autosaves, sorry. I've being playing the butt off of Deity level, trying to get into the RBE games. No success so far, but my gameplay has improved measurably, particularly with the trading aspect.

LKendter
hotrod0823 (vacation 11/2 to 11/8)
Arizona_Steve
Meldor (playing - already a got it!) He is over 48 hours, OVERDUE
Mystery13 (on deck)

20 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

270 AD (Pre-turn)
Why does Adana not have a temple? That is why Nanking hasn't flipped. I will let it finish the settler first and then it gets a temple. Along the same lines, the cities putting pressure on the Japanese will get temples as well, starting with Karabuk. Why are the dyes not hooked up? We also need those wines as well. We will get them started with the next settler. In spite of being at war we are mighty sparse on troops, we have 4 swords and 2 horsemen. This will have to be corrected if we are to nail the Chinese next. They are in the way and have some nice cleared land near our main core. It would be nice to build to FP in Edrine and then move the palace to the Japanese/German end of the world. Diplomatically we sit pretty nicely as our olny obligation is a7 turns left on an RoP with China. China and Japan are still at war with Germany and hopefully this will hold until we hit China. The Chinese must not be building any culture building at all as none of their cities (except the capital) have expanded borders.
(I) The Japanese start building Sun Tzu's.

280 AD (1)
Upgrade 20 spears for 200g. Switch Adana to temple.
(I) China and Germany sign a peace deal. Darn. A barb warrior comes out of nowhere and nails one of our swords!

290 AD (2)
Rush temple in Adana. Dyes are on-line but we can't lower luxes, due to population growth.
(I) Japab builds a city on the spot I was headed for to get the wines.

300 AD (3)
Temple drops Adana's next expansion from 27 to 16 turns.

310-340 AD (4-6)
Spot green border across the sea.

350 AD (7)
Ship pushes for green border, but it doesn't make it to safe coast. Hopefully it will survive one turn at sea.
(I) We lost our ship without contact.

360 AD (8)
Hurry another galley in Ankara. Our first (Med)Evil Infantry come off of the production line and head for China.
370 AD (9)
Cancel RoP with China.
(I) I guess we got close enough, the Celts come and give us their territory map and 30g for ours. He wants 430g for contact with anyone else. Nanking flips to us. We get a free pike and order up a library to try and flip Hangchow. China is down to seven cities and we haven't wet our swords yet.

380-400 AD (10-12)
(I) The Carthiginian's must have bought contact with us. We swap territory maps with them. They want ove 200g for contact witht the last civ (the Arabs), no thanks. Japan and Germany reach peace.

410-480 AD (13-20)
A second galley finally tries to make it across the gap again. I will take one extra turn just to see if it makes it, and to watch the completion of Sun Tzu's.
(I) Sun Tzu's completes, I scroll through and sell off all of the rax. Palace expands. Galley sinks.

490 AD (21)
Empty treasury and upgrade all remaining spears to pikes.

I would steal one more turn just to even the dates out but will leave that to the next person.

Notes:
I built a nice little force of 9 medival infantry. Most of them are in Cankiri. I was only building in cities that had rax, but now they all do.
There is a settler in Thief if you want ot put him somewhere.
There is one more galley almost to where it can try and cross.
I built a lot of marketplaces.
No deals active with the Chinese....go get 'em

LK34 490 AD Saved Game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LK34_490AD.zip)

LKendter (on deck)
hotrod0823
Arizona_Steve
Meldor
Mystery13 (playing) Make sure we have a placeholder to get another wonder!

20 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Glad to see the progress. It is good to see so many turns in just 7 days.

Hotrod

@Meldor
BAD LINK
Can't find any sing up the file in uploads.

I got a file confirmed message, but you are right, it wasn't there. It is now. Strange.

got it

Ok, I'm about half done with my turn. Speaking of done, the Chinese are down to 4 cities and will be eliminated soon. One question, with research shut off, obviously we have to buy our way. I have sold maps but no communications yet. Theology and Chivalry are available. Do we give up communications for those two techs or take a chance and wait it out? Any thoughts? I will finish tomorrow night.

I agree that we took a cash hit, but have become dedicated to the motto "Population = Power", and will do everything possible to add population.

Aha! :)

Hey, Lee. We haven't crossed paths in a while. I hope you are enjoying the expansion. I'm just about ready to dive in myself.

The land grab phase is so urgent on higher difficulty that most games, the whole ancient era is spent producing settlers and maybe workers or troops out of the capital, while other cities try to get started with some basic stuff, like a cultural building, a unit, a worker or two, etc. The Great Library is nice and all, but you can get that much extra commerce out of having more, larger and stronger cities, assuming there is land available to grab. The ability to wait and buy in to tech @last price, or to broker some 2fer deals, buying one tech and trading it away to lagging AI's for one or more additional techs, pretty much means it's no problem to tag along on the coattails of the AI's through the late ancient era and early middle ages, running min sci and high cash to get ahead financially: contacts, embassies, troop upgrades, and after govt swap, frontier rushbuys. Plenty of uses for the cash.

On Monarch, the Great Library can be worth it simply for the culture, depending on the game plan. Monarch AI's are slow enough about tech and land grab as to give the player more chances to sidestep to build wonders, rather than having to invest everything he's got into land grab and population growth and/or military aggression.

My two cents.


- Sirian

@Sirian
What I did was take the Pyramids instead - for the exact reason of getting more population. It is pretty much a wash culture wise. However, getting granaries everywhere will gain us more population faster - why my population = power comment. Yes, I am starting to sound like a DSG player;) I have even built the occasion non-vet unit, though I still prefer vet units. Some of the same tactics that let you survive Deity insanity - RBE3 still blows my mind that you won - are very useful at lower levels. On the land grab - I don't even bother with ancient wonders in a solo game - except OCC, 5CC (colossus) and always war (great library makes a huge difference there).

In my solo games have done much better since I started to do things like delay my first settler in favor on a granary, and then pump out settler like crazy from a LARGER city. This game had our capital as a monster settler factory - we claimed a huge amount of land despite the capital being the ONLY settler source. Our land is well developed already thanks to a granary and wheat city pumping our workers like crazy.

I hope you are enjoying the expansion. I'm just about ready to dive in myself.
Have fun - I was a bit shocked by it. I thought it was new civs and multi-player only. Instead I have already found:
1) Human contact sold
2) Different barb reactions from huts
3) Worker cost through the roof
More feels different - I just haven't put my finger on the details.


@Mystery13
Do we give up communications for those two techs or take a chance and wait it out?
Can the civs find the other continent WITHOUT a suicide galley? If yes, then sell contacts ASAP.
If not, we should wait until we are close to astronomy.

I got done early...

20 turns! I've never done that before in an SG. I think I'll
use Sirian's early/middle/late writing style this time (I hope
you don't mind Sirian).

Preturn, I only change a couple of things. Riza to Courthouse
since 1 shield won't get us an infantry any time soon. I change
Uskadar to Hanging Garden as a wonder placeholder.

Early:

I begin moving all med-evil Infantry toward China. A look at
our military shows 42 workers already! I love this part of
the LK game.
England still wants too much for Theology. I sell around our
World Map for about 150 gold (I hope this doesn't give away
communications in PTW). We give up Monotheism to the Celts
for a bunch of gold and contact with the Arabs. The Arabs are
the second largest nation to us but have not yet researched Lit!
A couple of turns after the map trades, I check and comm has
indeed not been established between the two continents (and only a suicide run allows a galley across). We hold comm until
someone nears Astronomy.
We've got a few workers finishing up jobs on the Chinese border
so war will have to wait a couple of turns. We learn Engineering
and I head for Invention. Don't want to waste beakers on Theology since it's known and we should get Chivalry from an AI civ for cheap.
Our galley makes it to across to Carthage!
Arabia, Carthage and the Celts are warring and not researching.
I rush temples in Nanking and Xinjian due to happiness problems
even at 30% lux. I move all of our workers to the jungle on the
Japanese side in preparation for war on the Chinese side.

Middle:

War with the Chinese has begun!
We take Tientsin, Macao and Tsingtao in the first volley (they
were lightly defended). I can't seem to keep Nanking out of
disorder even with the new temple. Must've been whipped in its
former life. Chivalry is now for sale, but too expensive.
We next take Shanghai.
In 600AD, I rush a library in Tunceli and Sivas on the Japanese
border. We buy Chivalry straight up for 350G...we are now
producing Knights.
In the next volley, we take the last Chinese core cities. We
raze Beijing due to culture. We raze Canton due to poor location.
We take Hangchow. Settlers are ordered up for next turn to
replace the razed cities. The Chinese now have one city left
South of Japan. We let them keep it in exchange for Theology.
I swap our wonder placeholder to Sistine Chapel but the English
build it in London so I switch to Palace.

Late:

With 6 turns left, I decide to take our military advantage at
England. I can see no iron or horse connected within their
borders, but there are horses next to their town to the South
of Japan.
I rush the temple in Denizili due to its size. 30% lux not
enough with no temple at size 9.
We heal up and head for England.
Tatung and Hastings fall the first turn. Spearmen defenders
only!...maybe med-evil infantry too strong for the human player?
It's like playing with Persia all the time.
Libraries pay off as Yokohama flips to us! We also take
Canterbury and Coventry. Playing to 700AD to even out the
turns as suggested.

Ok, that's it. There are three core English cities left and
I suggest we take them. Sistine Chapel is in London and would
help us tremendously. It would be nice not to have to run
30% lux tax (and we've had some happiness problems even with
that rate!).
The wonder placeholder is a palace in Uskudar. No great leader
with all of that fighting, but we sure could use one to build
the forbidden palace. Corruption is killing us!
One more thing, there is a barb camp on the old Chinese coast
that needs to be attended to.

The save file is here:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LK34_700AD.zip

I got it - looks like we are well on our way.

Will we see factories this game?


As for all of the workers - thank the irrigated wheat / granary worker factory.

(0) 700 AD - I take a look at the empire - the good news, no wonder cascade and palace in place to snag Leo's.
The bad news - Karabuk was not place where I suggested, so no easy prospects for wines.
The TERRIBLE news - the FP is not on-line yet, and no clear place to put it.
I rush a temple in Tunceli and Sivas to increase the pressure on a Japan city with wines.
Miserable people are our # 1 problem, and we are not researching at the moment so Inzik to Cathedral. Sinop and Cankiri have terrible corruption, switch to courthouse. Bolu and Tientsin are food short and can't grow - switch to harbor.
(I) What the - a courthouse in Meldor's Thief recovers just 1 commerce?

(1) 710 AD - Nottingham is captured with 3 workers.
(I) The Carthaginians are building Leo's in Carthage, which has about 8 shields. No contest vs. Uskudar with 16 usable shields.

(3) 730 AD -
(I) This is obscene - Nanking with a courthouse, still has just 1 shield. This is a third ring city on a standard size map.
The Celts are building Leo's in Entermont, which has maybe 12 shields.

(7) 770 AD - I buy invention from Carthage for $429 / $11/turn. Leo's due in 9, and a new palace placeholder is started.

(9) 790 AD - The assault on London begins - I waited for the 2 elite units for a chance at a leader. Corruption is nailing us big time here.
[dance] IT WORKS [dance]
Orhan appears and promises a second palace.
(I) Carthage declares war on the Arabs.

(10) 800 AD - Tatung will have the forbidden palace and most of the English conquest will have some value.
London is captured.

(11) 810 AD - Our cash flow jumps from +79 to +141. York is captured.
I sign peace with England, as Warwick is quite a bit away. We get a mere $10 and wm.

(15) 850 AD - The AI has gunpowder and education and astronomy should be next. Time to sell off contacts.
I buy education for 4 contacts and $35. I buy gunpowder for 4 contacts and $425. We have 4 connected sources of Saltpeter.
[dance] We get Leo's, and NO cascade.

(17) 870 AD - I just have a funny feeling about Japan. I upgrade our pike men to musket men near his border.
(I) Celts / Carthage ally vs. Arabia.


Summary - I don't know what is going on with corruption? It is acting like we are on a small map - which I very much doubt. I compared on old game from Civ3 original and loaded it into PTW. No difference in corruption.

LKendter
hotrod0823 (playing)
Arizona_Steve (on deck)
Meldor
Mystery13

20 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LK34-900AD.zip

A great leader is exactly what I was hoping for. We needed the FP in the worst way. Corruption has been killer and I wasn't able to keep Nanking happy for more than a turn at a time. A few weird things are happening. Hopefully, a few more weird things will happen to Japan as the Ottoman Empire expands! We should definitely build Cathedrals with Sistine's Chapel on hand so we can reduce the lux tax.

Awesome turn.

Got it! Will start tonight

Originally posted by Mystery13
A great leader is exactly what I was hoping for. We needed the FP in the worst way. Corruption has been killer and I wasn't able to keep Nanking happy for more than a turn at a time. A few weird things are happening. Hopefully, a few more weird things will happen to Japan as the Ottoman Empire expands! We should definitely build Cathedrals with Sistine's Chapel on hand so we can reduce the lux tax.

Awesome turn.


I ALREADY did build / start a few cathedrals on my turn.
What we really need is that Japan wine city to flip, but so far it is ignoring the culture pressure.

Yep, I saw that you started on the Cathedrals. I was just informing everyone else that may not have seen that we captured Sistine's Chapel. I'm hoping we can knock out our lux tax and race to Mil Tradition. If we wait for the other civs to research at this point we may never even get there!

A map for the spectators, if you please? :) I don't even know where England WAS relative to you. :)

Here is a picture of the mini map showing how large the Ottomans are.
Our UU hasn't even come into play yet.
Also show is Istanbul, a glorious setter factory responsible for all of our natural cities.
Bursa with a granary was a killer worker factory producing most of the 40+ workers this game.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LAK-184.jpg

Wow this is a amazing game.. how about Sun Tzus?

We own Sun Tzu, Leo's and should get Corponicus (sp?).
We acquired Sistine from England.

The majority of England was to the SE of the section of the mini-map posted.

Courthouses and any other improvements to reduce corruption only affect distance-related corruption. They do not influence "city number" corruption. Third ring cities without an FP means the cities are down the list at number 12 to 20 in the chain of "closest to core". Courthouse plus WLTKD might salvage something out of them, but the FP would do the most good. Placement of the FP doesn't impact the "city numbers" except to affect which cities are assigned which numbers. Good FP placement gives you more coverage in terms of reducing "average distance to core", but that's all.

In other words, the only net benefits to placing the FP are those involving distance corruption. If the Palace and FP are adjacent, you get one large core, which is not as good on reducing distance corruption as two normal cores. Both are equally good at affecting "city number" corruption, though, so there is something to be said for early FP over "ideally placed" FP. Unless you're going for conquest, or something approaching it, the sooner you build the FP, the better, as the benefits you are losing over time by having higher "city number corruption" will ONLY be countered with the added distance-reduction benefits of an ideal FP if there is going to be enough time left in the game once you get the delayed second core going to make up for it.

I hope that wasn't too confusing. :) In Epic Thirteen, I built my FP right away in my second city, had it completed at like 900BC or something else equally absurd. This in a SPRAWLING empire with the most rabid farmer's gambit I have ever run. My huge singular core was, surprisingly, almost as productive as two full cores. The city number corruption is more of the problem than folks seem to realize. The AI building its FP asap, even right next to its capital, is not as bad a move for them as most players seem to think.


- Sirian

Courthouses DO affect OCN (Optimal City Number) and have since patch .... 1.21f, I believe. For that city, the "effective" OCN is increased by 25% for each of WLTKD, courthouse, and police station.

OTOH, this thread is the first I've seen addressing whether cities on one palace list are excluded from the other list. I had always assumed that the lists could have overlap -- one city could be #11 on the "nearest palace list" and #16 on the "nearest FP list", for example, which would count as #11 overall for corruption purposes. If it's really the case that once a city is closer to one corruption center than the other that it doesn't affect the other list, that would greatly change my conception. I'm not certain at all of this, though. Has anyone seen an answer to this specific question?

Arathorn

LK 34 -

900 AD (0): Turned Lux down to 20% and began to make the rounds of all the cities, corruption is king. All so far have been okay for happiness. Uskudar will revolt so hire entertainer, at max pop even with entertainer and market is do in 3 turns. Put some English workers back to work. Build Embassy with Arabia, for 86 gold, goes to cautious. Research at 0%, +229 gold. Not sure on why the colosseum in Aydin, change to University.

910 AD (1): London completes temple and start library due in 7. Istanbul finishes Cathedral and starts university. With 1195 gold decided to turn on research at 30% get PP in 6 turns with +49 gpt. Not sure how much is already invested in PP decide to let it finish out and work a trade later, will b-line to Military Tradition after.

920 AD (2): Macao completes harbor starts, aqueduct. Lots o worker actions, no real diplo news. No new techs out there to buy continue with our own research, only Carthage has any real gold 346.

930 AD (3): London is hit by disease :(. Uskudar builds marketplace starts cathedral, put entertainer back to work. Chengdu builds temple starts market. Salonika builds cathedral starts university. Change temple in Nottingham to library, people are happy and library is cheaper. I think war with Japan will come soon.

940 AD (4): Bursa builds cathedral start university. Aydin completes university starts knights. Konya builds knight starts knight. Sinop revolts MM to avoid entertainer. Tokat library starts temple. Upgrade a few pikes on the frontline with Japan.

950 AD (5): Tsingtao builds courthouse, starts library. Have to hire Denizli scientist, at 20% lux a revolt seems to be more likely. 3 towns in Japan I can see defenders in have only spears standing guard, will begin an attack in couple of turns, have a few more knights enroute, and want to pull the workers out of the jungle for safe keeping.

IBTWN: Germany wants us to more troops out of his lands, where are these troops? I say I will comply.

960 AD (6): Learn PP start chemistry on the path to Mil. Tradition. Trade PP and 80 gold to the Celts for Astronomy. Trade Pp with Carthage for 12gpt and 60 gold. Move troops into postion for attack on Japan.

IBTWN: Japan asks us to leave I refuse, War is declared.

970 AD (7): Take Shimonoseki to the West, order up a temple 1 resistor but it has wines [dance]. Take Matsuyama. Take Izumo. Take Edo.

980 AD (8): Move on Osaka. Japans counter kills 2 knights.

990 Ad (9); More movement

INBTW: Celts and Carthage want alliance against Arabia both will pay gold per turn, accept Celts 18gpt.

Japan counters and kill only 1 medieval infantry.

1000 Ad (10): Carthage pays 8 gpt for alliance agaist arabia. Hurry Library in Matsuyama for 148 gold. Hurry temple in Edo for 236 gold.

1010 AD (11): Wines are online silks soon. Moving on Nara and Kagoshima.

War Weariness is becoming a problem. Increase lux back to 30% :(.

1020 AD (12): Take Kagoshima.

1030 AD (13): Learn Chemistry start on Metalurgy, Celt have Music Theory and start Bachs. Take Tokoyo. Take Nara.

1040 AD (14): Begin moving on Satsuma and Kyoto, Warwick is near by too ;).

1050 AD (15): More movement.

1060 AD (16): Take out 3 units in Koyoto.

INBT: Celts and Arabs sign peace.

1070 AD (17): Take out Satsuma.

1080 AD (18): War Weariness is taking its toll. Hight entertainers etc.

1090 AD (19): Take Ise, will take Kyoto next turn.

1100 AD (20): Take Kyoto. Only 2 Japanese cities remain.

On the diplo front: Celts and Carthage both are ahead by Navigation and Music Theory. We get Metalurgy next turn. They will trade for our luxuries. Our lux is now at 40% just to stop the rioting. I think that once Japan is finished then the WW will lessen. Arabs will talk peace too. There are many things I left undone on negociations. We still have almost 1500 gold. Japan is all but dead but will give up its last city for peace.

The first turns were spent mostly on building but the last bunch I focused primarily on war with Japan. As far as the Palace city I left it as a palace. Music Theory is out there now and we could snag Bachs I think without any problem. I had very few promotions and no leaders.

War is not my strong suit but it was definitely intense. Good luck!

Here is the save:




http://civfanatics.net/uploads2/LK34-1100AD.zip

As far as Cop's we can have it now if we want but it will waste many shields. I wasn't sure what the priority was for the palace pre-build. I think we should use it for Smith's or Bach's. Also, Cop's will start the GA as we already have the Pyramids for our industrious trait and Cop's will give the other.

I didn't read Lee's post on Cop's until today sorry if not switching is :smoke:. I just felt that the 125 shields was too much waste.

Hotrod

I will pick up the game tonight after work.

@ Sirian / Arathorn - What prompted my corruption comments is I could not find any 3rd ring cities with decent production. On a standard map, I am use to the 3rd ring of cities having some productivity. I don't know if it was just specific to this map, but if I build a fp on a standard map I expect to be able to build it in a 3rd ring city. I have already pulled in off in a 4th ring city on a standard map. This map offered nothing better then a close 2nd ring city.


Move troops into position for attack on Japan. IBTWN: Japan asks us to leave I refuse, and war is declared.
This is a form of RoP rape in my opinion. When you cross the border of any civ you have an implicit RoP with them. I will have to create a more detailed list for the next LK game of acceptable tactics as I consider this tactic game abuse. This game is such a blow out; it really doesn't matter so the game moves forward.

LKendter
hotrod0823 (playing)
Arizona_Steve
Meldor (on deck)
Mystery13

20 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

"Implicit ROP" ??? HUH?? The intent was to attack the next turn. Would it have made a difference if I moved in then declared first? Not exactly sure on what the difference is and why it would be an abuse if no "explicit" 20 turn ROP was in effect. This is not honorable, granted but not exploitive IMO. That being said, your game your rules, I will abide by them.

Hotrod

"Surprise Attack" is defined as entering enemy territory with the intention of attacking on later rounds, without first declaring war via diplomatic channels, so as to gain a positional advantage through deception, delaying the enemy response. Surprise attacks are dastardly.

This comes the Evaluation of Moves at RBCiv, for dasterdly warfar and war declaration, NOT Exploitative.

Lee, you guys have a good game going here, and are already kicking some rear - it's going to be just brutal on the AI when you get Siphali! :hammer:

As far as the 'sneak attack', hotrod is correct in that its dastardly not exploitative. (Of course that's RBCiv Epic style, anyone can set whatever rules they want for their SG, just need to be clear in game announcement.) I think there's actually some ground in the middle there, which I think of as 'honorable' or 'trustworthy' (I think of the existing honorable as downright 'virtuous' or ethical) - wherein you knowingly make no move whatsoever that hurts your 'rep'. All the dastardly moves which tarnish rep would be out, but other 'nice guy' issues such as intentional starving, espionage, wars of aggression where you formally declare and do not sneak attack, would be fair game under 'Trustworthy' rules. (In PtW with inflated worker prices, those would be acceptable as well). Anyway, that's just two cents worth ;)

@Sirian and Arathorn

You know... that's a *KEY* question how it handles the core list and palace list.

I) Palace has a list with all cities, FP has a list, and you take the smaller number of the two
II) Each city is assigned to just one of the lists, depending on which one it's closer to

If case I, having FP next to palace would be very poor indeed, with reducing the rank in the outer cities by just a small number.
If case II, having an FP right on top of the palace would still allow a tremendous reduction in distance rank (and corruption) for essentially all cities. Every city would have their rank almost cut in two - it would be like "FP doubles the effective OCN as far as distance calculations)

Since a case could be made for either, and the programming is about the same complexity, it's not clear which method is actually used. I have a feeling that the surprisingly good results seen with even very close FP's might suggest it's case number II. And if THAT is true, it should mean a huge shift in attitudes toward where and when to build the FP - the new answer would be in any of the top producing cities regardless of distance, and a lot sooner than we tend to build the FP now.

This should be fairly easy to test - I'll try to do so unless one of you has a link to a solid answer which method is used.

Charis

Move troops into position for attack on Japan. IBTWN: Japan asks us to leave I refuse, and war is declared.
This is a form of RoP rape in my opinion. When you cross the border of any civ you have an implicit RoP with them. I will have to create a more detailed list for the next LK game of acceptable tactics as I consider this tactic game abuse. This game is such a blow out; it really doesn't matter so the game moves forward.



I am sorry, but I must disagree with this one. In order for something to be an abuse or expliot, it must be something that a) the AI is NOT able to do itself, and b) is so bad as to unbalance the game. I will address this:

a) The AI does this in almost every game I have ever played both against the human player and even more against each AI player. The AI can and will (If the human allows it) move troops into your territory after something they want and not declare war until they get near what they want to take from you. There is an in game method to deal with both the AI doing this and for the AI to deal with you doing it. You can not move troops deeply into foriegn territory without objections. Yes, if there is a long border. you can and will move troops to take more cities or resources than the AI will, but the AI is not nearly effective at pursuing war as a human player. Is it exploitive to attack more than one city in a trun just because we know the AI won't remeove defenders from "safe" cities, to defend those in need? Also, this move is frowned upon by the AI players and is considered a mild form of duplicity. Your future relations with all civs will suffer. This one actually tilts towards the AI player, as the AI can and does more easily force you out of their territory than you can. Many the time, I have read and experienced the AI moving troops through my territory and ignoring my requests to leave. They force you to be the one to declare war, or except the intrusion. If you are not ready for war, or you have trade deals, the AI exploits this to do as it will.
b) The only thing that declaring war first does is to allow the AI to have the first move in the war. In the case in point, the Japanese had the chance to take the first move anyway, because war was declared on the Japanese part of the interturn. If he had asked us to leave we lied and said we would, then and only then would we have first strike. As human, we don't attack until we are fairly certain the outcome will favor us anyway. Once rails come, all bets are off anyway. Any human player can blitz and wipe out an AI in a short period of time, isn't the attack and retreat to a barracks more unbalancing than this?

Frankly, I consider this an open and usable part of the game. The AI does a fairly good job at both using it and dealing with it. The question would be if this was "dastardly" (as the good folks at Relams Beyond Pop-ups, like to call it). I don't know if it is any more dasardly than delclaring war on someone with whom you have been trading with for 2000 years, just because you want another source of luxes to sell back to those you just stole it from. War is dastardly, no matter how you want to sugar coat it. Thats why those that want to be gentlemen about it, always lose to those that do it with no false imaginings. Declarations of war occur almost always after the fact, not before. Unless I play under rules that specifically forbid it, I don't even think twice about this one.

I was playing SP last night as the Ottomans and had just finished a brief war with the Vikings. Haven taken most of their holdings and gotten peace, the borders had yet to expand. Hammie, just to the north started sending bowmen between the culture borders, headed for a city behind the new front line. When the borders expanded, Hammie now had troops in my lands. I asked him to leave (as was even selling him luxes at the time) he said he would. His troops kept heading straight for what he wanted. Should I have continued to allow this, or should I have let him know he made a mistake? Of course, I asked him to leave and he refused. His troops never made it home. (or maybe they did, as within 4 turns, the land of Hammie were for the most part mine). Was this an attempted exploit by the AI? Did he break trade agreements? Was what he did Dastardly? Yes, yes, and yes. As a matter of fact, when he sued for peace the advisor told me not to trust him as he had also previously done the same to the innocent nation of Persia! Most of us consider it bad manners to break trade agreements, because we paly community games and we except that in most of these games, we will no limit the ability of the others to play their sytles by isolating our civ with these types of moves. However, this move in the long run, doesn't limit any deals or make us the worlds enemy for the rest of the game. This is in no way even close to a full blown RoP, wipe the civ in one turn, rape.

Maybe you should limit its scope, but not take it totally off of the table. Of course, if you sponser the game, you are welcome to set your rules at the start and those who play the games should follow them. I don't think putting restrictions on others SG players (beyond things that do unbalance, or effect the complete game) is something that should be done. That is one of the reasons I don't play in certain of the games offered here, I feel they are too abstracted to allow any variation. It is that variation that makes this games fun, at least for me.

According to alexman, the corruption guru, in the corruption "Bible" thread at

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=19922&perpage=20&display=&pagenumber=4

it is two lists and a city can be found on both lists at the same time. Now, alexman has been known to make a mistake before (I actually caught one earlier in this thread), he's usually correct. Barring evidence to the contrary (which I think everybody is always willing to consider), I'm going to go with the every city is listed in both lists theory and plan accordingly.

Arathorn

(0) 1100AD
A quick word with the advisors tells me that I have inherited an empire at war with both Arabia and Japan, and that the people are getting thoroughly sick of it. Luxuries running at 40% right now, so I need to end one, preferably both, of the wars quickly.
Ankara - Entertainer put back to work.
Denizli - Entertainer put back to work.
Bolu - Citizens moved from forest to coast to stimulate growth (there is a harbor there).
Meldor's Thief - Citizens reassigned to avoid starvation.
Tunceli - Citizens reassigned to avoid starvation.
York - Entertainer put back to work.
Shanghai - Entertainer put back to work.
Edrine - Entertainer put back to work.
Starve out a few Japanese citizens.
I'd love to offer Arabia a peace treaty, but notice that we have an alliance against them with the Catharge that lasts another 10 turns.
Japan comes begging for a peace treaty. I accept after they give us everything they have, including the city of Sapporo. Only their capital remains.
Metallurgy comes in. As we probably won't be warring for a little while, I set research to Banking, with a view to getting Economics and Smith's.
A number of cities go into WLTSD.

(1) 1110AD
Back to the micromanagement...
All non-Japanese entertainers put back to work. Japanese cities continue to starve.
Luxuries down to 20%
Banking in 5 turns at +35 gold per turn (40% science).
Many military builds changed to aquaduct (for size 6 cities) and cathedral, with a few libraries dotted here and there.
China threatens me for moving a galley into their boundary. I'm so scared of the production capabilities of their ONE city.
My micromanagement holds - Only sapporo goes into disorder due to it starving and it's citizens being reassigned.

(2) 1120AD
Move a few knights and workers around.
I rush some cultural buildings in cities that are too close for comfort to enemy capitals.
I think I'm starving Japanese I think I'm starving Japanese I really think so...
The celts build Copernicus' Observatory.

(3) 1130AD
Call up Catharge - Metallurgy goes their way, we get Music Theory, Navigation, 105 gold and 50 gold per turn.
Metallurgy to the Celts for 228 gold + 35 gold per turn.
Everyone else is hopelessly behind on tech, and for some strange reason a lot of them seem to only have one city left! Muhahahaha!
Our extra per-turn gold allows science to be upped to 50% and banking reduced from 3 to 2 turns.
The domestic advisor tells me to build HOSPITALS??? Uh? We don't have the technology yet.

(4) 1140AD
Uskadar changed from University (due this turn) to JS Bach's cathedral, due in 34. Some micromanagement shaves this down to 29 turns. Saving the Palace at Edrine to make absolutely sure of getting Smith's. In restrospect, this was :smoke: as I should have changed the palace to JS Bach's, as the AI's have neither Banking or Economics, and I could've started another Palace Placeholder for Smiths.
Banking is researched, Economics started. 4 turns at 50%.

(5) 1150AD
Several cities changed to bank. Others will be added as they complete their current projects.
Van founded.

(6) 1160AD
Move workers around.
Meldor's Thief goes into disorder. It doesn't even have a temple.

(7) 1170AD
Taxman hired at Meldor's Thief.
London goes into disorder at size 12 and hires a taxman until it's cathedral is completed.

(8) 1180AD
Order restored in London.

(9) 1190AD
Economics comes in. Edrine swaped to Smiths at a loss of 350 shields (Ouch!).
I notice that The Celts have Physics. Banking + wines + silks go their way, Physics comes ours. Research switched to Magnetism. Science dropped to 40% to recoup some cash.
Smiths is completed. Income jumps from +95 per turn to +123. A golden age is triggered and income jumps again to 241 per turn. Our economy is smoking!

(10) 1200AD
I drop luxuries to 10%. Only London and Meldor's theif need additional taxmen.
I cannot get Magnetism any faster than 3 turns, so science remains at 40%.
More banks, cathedrals and universities are ordered.
Sinop gets disorderly, taxman hired until it's cathedral completes.

(11) 1210AD
More worker movements.
Two more cities go into disorder. It's very difficult to keep track of who's growing each turn.
We lose JS Bach's Cathedral to the Carthinogens.

(12) 1220AD
Apparently the Celts are building Magellan's, it's there on F7 but I don't see Navigation available on their trading screen.
Uskadar is switched to palace placeholder.
Geeze, Carthage get Magellans.

(13) 1230AD
Time to sell off Economics. I get 221 gold + 50 gold per turn from Brennus (The Celts).
I cancel the alliance against the Arabs that we have with Catharge.
Arabia gives us their World Map for peace.
Urfa founded in another cultural gap.
We are making 536 gold per turn, even with 40% science and 10% luxury tax.
Six cities go into disorder. Negative war weariness I guess. Oops.

(14) 1240AD
I see my :smoke: - somehow I'd turned the luxury tax to 0%. So easily done. Back to 10%.
Go through all cities and kick out specialists.

(15) 1250AD
Order restored in all cities.
I check for trades. It appears that I have bankrupted all of the other civs!

(16) 1255AD
More buildings complete. Several cities are building knights as they have nothing else to build.
Drop science to 30% for 1 turn to get 698 gold.
Theory of Gravity comes in and we reach the Industrial Age.
We're ahead in tech, so I start research on Steam Power.

(17) 1260AD
Uskadar swapped to Newton's University at a waste of only 5 shields. Nice timing!
Our palace gets an expansion.
Bursa swapped to Palace placeholder.
Science to 60% - Steam power in 4 turns.

My plan now would be to use our Golden Age to push for Steam Power / Rails / Industrialization / Factories / Scientific Method / Theory of Evolution / Atomic Theory / Electronics / Hoover Dam to get ourselves a totally unassailable lead in tech and production (as if it isn't already).
Newton's comes in next turn. Feel free to veto (switch back to palace) if there is a more important wonder we want to get.

LK34 - 1260AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LK34_1260AD.zip)

Originally posted my Meldor

I am sorry, but I must disagree with this one. In order for something to be an abuse or exploit, it must be something that a) the AI is NOT able to do itself, and b) is so bad as to unbalance the game.
...
I don't think putting restrictions on others SG players (beyond things that do unbalance, or effect the complete game) is something that should be done. That is one of the reasons I don't play in certain of the games offered here, I feel they are too abstracted to allow any variation. It is that variation that makes this games fun, at least for me.



I think the above information sums up things quite well. I don't want the issue to run out of control, so I will comment from work since my blockage to the forums lasted about 2 weeks. :confused:
I have avoided any comments from work since I got access back, as I have put my foot in my mouth several times when I rushed a comment from work.

My general ruling:
I am very protective of keeping a good rep. I personally dislike the cross the border and then declare war tactics, but I have to agree that I over reacted. This will continue to be a valid tactic in the LK series. I also have avoid some games with excessive restriction.

Please consider this topic closed, and apologies to hotrod for over reacting.

Of course, in LK35 - PTW always war, there are NO restrictions at all. ;)

Lee,

You like to put a lot of yourselves into these games. The majority of us who play SGs with you appreciate the effort you put into both sponsoring and researching the new civs. You don't have to apologize for that.

BTW, got it.

Arathorn, thanks for the link - I somehow managed to read just about every article on the subject but missed that last page of that thread!

At lunchtime I ran a test to see if corruption calculations did:
i) a single list sorted by min(distance)
ii) two full lists sorted by distance to each of palace and FP,
then use the 'min rank' for each city
iii) paring down those two lists to have each city listed just once in each list

It's definitely NOT number three - ie there are not two "short lists". My test couldn't distinguish between i and ii, but, if you think about it, going with option one could mean that if you have an FP built in the middle of a solid ring of distance 3 cities, after you had a palace with a nice low corruption ring of distance 4 cities, having one list with "min distance" would suddenly throw all the cities around the palace into the bottom half of the sort, completely unacceptable. Thus I infer that (ii) is correct, not (i).

Alexman's post says that it's "ii", which agrees with my data.
I'll still likely run a specific test which can discriminate (i) from (ii) simply because all I've ever seen is "assertion" regarding the FP list, never any data. (But as you say, definitely take "two lists and the smaller rank is taken" until data shows otherwise :P )

Turns out the "dumbbell" remains king for ideal setup

Charis

PS @LK - your grace, and eye for quality in games shows why "you da man" for Succession games :goodjob:

PPS - Ah, hey, while I'm addressing both Arathorn and LK in the same post - I saw there was a postponed attempt at Deity 5CC conquest or something equally painful. I couldn't add it in just now, and other folks were overcommitted too, especially with PtW out, but if at some point later you do that, I would be interested - and if as the quick fill up suggested, I might suggest a competition where two teams choose different civs, say Japan and Germany. AI opponents are the opposite civ plus remaining random, then have a non-participant swap Germany and Japan so that one team plays one civ, the second the other, both from the identical starting position. To those two civs who would work well, Ottomans seem to have the right 'stuff' to make a go at it :cool:

@Charis - At some point I may consider a 5cc deity challenge, however I it would be with PTW. The AI fighting logic has change a lot, and I don't feel comfortable attempting deity fighting until I better understand the new AI attack logic. My first attempt to start LK35 - Always way was a disaster with one city burned to the ground in 40 turns, and just 1 military unit left to defend 2 cities. The AI attack logic is better, I just haven't put all the pieces together yet.

@Meldor - Hmmm, do you mean Brazil, Australia and Songhai (i/p)?

LKendter
Hotrod0823
Arizona_Steve
Meldor (playing)
Mystery13 (on deck)

20 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

@Lee - That is exactly what I meant.

BTW, I started playing last night and found out we had bypassed researching Military Tradition. There is only one civ who has it currently and I don't care to buy it at 2nd civ prices. OTOH, since we are in our GA I am not going to stop the current research direction until we have factories started in our cities. We have ~30 knights to upgrade and at this point we don't need the Sipahi for a GA trigger. My thoughts are to but it at some point soon, upgrade what we have and then clean our continent off. We can then start on the other one or wiat for infantry and arty SoDs to grind it out. Thoughts?

I was wondering about bypassing Mil Trad since I didn't see anything about it. That's why were the Ottomans right? 8-3-3 cav will take the world before Inf arrive. I say we go for the horsies and take both continents before rubber shows up.:hammer:

As an observer with no say in the matter, go for military tradition and let us all see sipahi in action! And more maps, please....

Arathorn

Originally posted by Sullla in a different thread

Your declaration of war was highly dishonorable. I know here on Warlord it doesn't matter much, but your reputation can mean the difference between victory and defeat on the higher levels. You moved into Zulu territory and then declared war when he asked you move. The game treats this as the equivalent of a ROP betrayal in terms of reputation. It probably shouldn't, but it does. Instead, make sure to declare war first, THEN move into enemy territory. You suffer no reputation hit from doing this.


@All
The above is a FYI post, and explains what I said poorly quite well. I noticed the same pattern, and don't declare war if I am inside a civs borders.


@Meldor
Oh, I forget one - Argentina to counter balance Brazil. Civ #17 once the world map crowd all on PTW.



From Arathorn
As an observer with no say in the matter, go for military tradition and let us all see Sipahi in action! And more maps, please....
-------------
From Mystery13

I was wondering about bypassing Mil Trad since I didn't see anything about it. That's why were the Ottomans right? 8-3-3 cav will take the world before Inf arrive. I say we go for the horsies and take both continents before rubber shows up


Actually, I was originally hoping to a massive kick the AI butt with Sipahi. However, we already put 3 civ effectively out of action. Don't knock Sipahi vs. Infantry. I have kicked the AI around quite nicely with Cavalry and artillery vs. Infantry - A couple of those games were the last steps of domination. We have 8 vs. 10 on infantry, and should have no problem ending this game before tanks with good play. What we will need are some transports soon.

The below is a picture of our current mini-map along with 2 one-city civs on the map.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LAK-189.jpg


The new wonder in the game, a great benefit, but the game will have ending in a space race win before it appears.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LAK-190.jpg


On the other hand, I think this new building will come into play - especially if you own Smith's.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LAK-191.jpg

The stock exchange will be a big one, especially since we now have to build 5 of them before wall street, instead of banks.

I don't mean to say Sulla is wrong, but in my experience you take a lot less of a rep hit from a "Treaspass" war than you do from an RoP rape. In games I have played the rep hit was small and quickly gone. This is just something that every AI civ does multiple times every game. Can it be a bigger deal on the upper 2 levels of play, sure little thing counts then, but not at the more friendly levels.

Not that it much matters but what is the goal for winning, domination or conquest should both be on the table. We should have it before space is even close.

Hotrod

I suspect domination will kick in before conquest is finished. You have to go on raze like crazy mode for conquest. I thnik a quick cleanup of our continent - England, China, Germany and Japan (when peace treaty is up) will get us close.

No doubt!

Is there a smaller world map? I find your huge maps fun to read about but can't even open the game files never mind play with you all.

Hotrod

1260 AD (Pre-turn)
The Celts get dyes for 60g and 17gpt. Gems cost them another 23gpt. Send Dyes, Silks, Wines, and Gems to Carthage for Spices, Ivory and 42g. The Celts could pay 24gpt for ToG, but I don't want to let it get out yet. Drop lux tax to 0% and still get to fire some specialists. London cries for a marketplace but it completes its Cathedral this turn so we let it be. We have workers down near unproductive towns working squares for corruption, while Hastings, next to the FP has citizens working jungle. This will be corrected as workers finish current tasks.
(I) We get Newton's University. The courthouse in Iznik nets us 1 shield, however with a factory and hydroplant it might be workth it. WLT(Meldor)D breaks out all over the country in honor of my rise to power. It seems this will be a peaceful reign as we can use our GA to build out our cities and prepare for the coming storm.

1265 AD (1)
Upgrade 18 muskets for 360 gold. Eeep! We are building Knights, and not Cav. Quick visit to Science Advisor finds us without Military Tradition. Are we not going to build our UU? I ponder my bellybutton among other things and decide that even if we don't get to use our UU just yet, the GA is better spent getting factories and rails up and running. We can always trade for MI later and clean our continent with the Sipahi. I decalre war on England and then move the knights in.......
(I) We are the wealthiest nation in the world. However, two of Lizzie's old cities do not like us declaring war on her and they promptly riot without warning.

1270 AD (2)
England must have a settler somewhere because we take her last city and they don't go away. Upgrade all of our pikemen for 2150g.

1275 AD (3)
Movement towards the next one to go.
(I) We get Steam and due to popular demand, I start MT due in 4. We also get the Iron Works pop-up.

1280 AD (4)
Karabuk is switched to a courthouse and it is rushed. At one shield it will be 255 turns before the Iron Works builds. Massive rail project is started.
(I) Courthouse drops the Ironworks build down to 150 turns.

1285 AD (5)
Find English city. Unfortunately it is on the other side of the Germans, unfortunately for the Germans that is....We declare war on Germany and then move the troops in.....Nuremburg falls.
(I) The people must hate the Germans, as WLT(Meldor)D breaks out across the land.

1290 AD (6)
Konigsberg falls, kill off a horseman and archer.
(I) Horsemen try to take out Medeval Infantry, lots of German units appear, and a singlge English Longbow.

1295 AD (7)
Kill off all visible units, capture another worker. Troops advance on Berlin and Cologne.
(I) Carthage and Arabia sign a peace deal. China, smelling blood declares war on Germany. We get Military Tradition and set Science to 60% to get Industrialization in 4 with +296gpt income.

1300 AD (8)
Cologne actually had a musket, but it did them no good. Upgrade 8 knights to Sipahi.

1305 AD (9)
Move more knights to Cologne. Advance on Berlin.
(I) Nada

1310 AD (10)
There are a ton of muskets in berlin and we begin hacking our way through them. Cologne is now ours.

[EDIT] Forgot toake off wordwrap.

Uh, is there another 10 coming later, or should there be a save?


We must have coal [dance].
Here comes a military rail net :)

I will finish it tonight.

We have at least 4 sources of coal, including the one place near Karabuk were the Iron Works is under way. Once factories are on line, I may switch it briefly to a factory, rush it, then restart the IW.

Sent via E-mail from meldor


1310 AD (10)
(I) Nada

1315 AD (11)
The Sipahi apraoch Berlin. Send knights back to be upgraded. Science to 30%, Industrialization in 1.
(I) Industrialization finishes and we start Electricity, due in 4 with Science at 60%. Gotta love that GA boost.

1320 AD (12)
Switch 20 cities over to facotries to get the most on them during the GA. This is about 90% of the core. The rest were 1 turn away from building almost as important and allowed to complete. The Sipahi take Berlin and we inherit the Great Wall, oh boy. Upgrade 14 more Knights to Sipahi.
(I) I German Knight attempts to attack a Medeval Inf across a river and retreats. Our GA ends.

1325 AD (13)
Science is upped to 70% but that still drops Electricity to 4 turns again. Bursa had been switched from palace pre-build to factory, the factory completes and we start on Universal Suffering....er Sufferage. Due in 34. Rush the Facotry in Erdine, will start a palace pre-build there next turn. Troops begin approach to Frankfurt and Leipzig.
(I) Some WW hits in outer cities without markets.

1330 AD (14)
Leipzig is taken and we now have a native source of furs. Carthage gets furs for 37gpt, the Celts also for WM, 30g, and 14gpt. Frankfurt falls as well. Kill two knights, one longbow and one archer.
(I) Ah! The a German suicide knight retakes Frankfurt.

1335 AD (15)
Frankfurt is savely in our hands again. Newcastle is taken and the English are no more. Troops march on Hamburg and Stuttgart. Mil-rail 90% completed, workers start railing palace outward.
(I) Nada.

1340 AD (16)
Stuttgart and Hamburg fall, three more to go.....Science to 60% Electricity in 1.
(I) Medicine in 4 at 60%. We get our first pollution.

1345 AD (17)
Salzburg falls.
(I) Knight attampts to retake Hamburg and fails.

1350 AD (18)
Elite Sipahi kills an unfortified pike in the open and we get GL Murad. He drops back to Hamburg and forms an army. The assualt on Heidelburg waits until next turn so the new army may join in the fun.
(I) Nada.

1355 AD (19)
We take the last German city but they refuse to leave the game. Oops, we declare war on China and then move Sipahi in....
(I) All Quite

1360 AD (20)
Anyang is taken and the Chinese are no more. Science to 50%, Medicine in 1.

We now have 5 native lux and are importing two more.
Universal sufferage is due in 21 turns.
Heroic Epic is due in 5 turns in Uskudar.
Military Academy is due in 10 turns in Istanbul.
The palace pre-build is in Edrine.
We should be able to research Scientific Method within 5 turns. We can then switch the UniSuf (or which everone is best) to ToE and save the pre-build for Hover. None of our rivals have Nationalism or Steam Power yet, so we are at least three techs ahead of them. We will have plenty of time to build UniSuf on its own in another city.
I got off track from building ships when steam and factories set in but there is 3826g in the kitty and we are getting 248gpt. This will drop when science is reset next turn.
As mentioned above, I have not sold off any of the Industrial Age techs yet. The Ai's feel free to do so if you think it worth it. Last I checked, Carthage was the only one with money and they could only give ~87gpt for a tech.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LK34-1360AD.zip

LKendter (on deck)
Hotrod0823
Arizona_Steve
Meldor
Mystery13 (playing)

20 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

Thanks, Lee.

I can finally get back on the forums. Wonder if my ISP was slow in updating its DNS.

Got it, will have this one and LK35 back by tomorrow night...sorry, a little late on 35 but I can't help it.

I will be goon on business until wednesday will check in then to see if the game is won by then! If not move around me as you see fit.

Hotrod

Preturn, I trade world maps with Germany and I find their city. It's
on the other continent in former Arabian territory. There is also a
Japanese city over there! I change Yozgat to a Courthouse since it was only using 1 spt. I also rush the Marketplace in Tokat. These will be our two ship building cities on the East Coast. I switch Sivas to a Courthouse as well. Konya, Sinop and Denizli will be our ship builders on the West Coast, but we will wait for the factories to complete. Time to get on with it.

Right away our big trade with Carthage comes to an end. Do we really want another 20 turns of peace with them? I don't think so. Our deal with the Celts also ends and they are really pissed with us. Fine, you're up next. The loss of spices and silks does not cause any disorder.

1)1365AD MMOW. Replaceable Parts in 6. I take a look at every city and find we can fire a lot of entertainers. I switch all former
German cities to Temples for now...they can't do much way down here.

2)1370AD MMOW.

3)1375AD There seems to be a large amount of workers on auto
orders, but they move to fast and I can't catch which ones. I think
this is a no-no in LK games. Then, while looking for the automated workers I find a bunch sleeping!!!

4)1380AD MMOW Getting all of our troops into position to cross the sea is not that easy with this huge land of ours! Almost all Sipahin have been freed from their German posts. I move the slider so we still get Replaceable Parts in 3 but now making 246gpt. Wow. The economy is good.

5)1385AD I hurry the harbors in Yozgat and Tokat. Shipbuilding starts next turn. On the West Coast, 2 boats loaded and crossing. I figure I'll take out the Arabs first since we haven't warred with them yet.

6)1390AD MMOW.

7)1395AD We get Replaceable Parts, and obviously plenty of rubber. Beginning mass upgrade to Infantry...vet only. All regulars will be sent to cover new holdings.

8)1400AD MMOT, MMOW I dial Arabia and declare war. We land a bunch of Sipahi.

9)1405AD We take the first Arabian city. Military Academy and Heroic Epic are both ours (the Epic for a few turns now, just forgot to report).

10)1410AD Arabia is gone. Hmmm, what to do next. I don't really think anyone can stop us.

11)1415AD MMOT, MMOW.

12)1420AD Perfect timing. We get Sci Method. Switch Suffering to
TOE due next turn. Palace build almost done. Will switch to Hoover and have that done soon as well. Nice going everyone. We turn off Science and will have 920 more gold next turn...not that we need it. On the soon to be warfront, active boating now from both shores. The Sipahi will reign soon.

13)1425AD MMOW, MMOT

14)1430AD Almost ready to attack the other continent...7 boatloads on the way. I'm going to start in the former Arabian country where I think the 3 movement Sipahi can do a ton of damage. I dial up Carthage and terminate the furs deal. I dial up the Celts and terminate both luxury deals. We don't need the money. Only a peace treaty with Germany for 5 more turns remains.

15)1435AD We begin the war with Carthage. we take our first two cities without much incident. Let's see what their counterattack brings.

16)1440AD We take another city from Carthage...no counterattack yet.

In between, this time we take a serious counter and lose our Western shore party. Guerillas don't seem to fare well against Knights...
However, in sum total they take losses 2 to 1, attrition is on our
side. Especially since we get Hoover this turn. Also, researching
toward tanks.

17)1445AD MMOT, MMOW Landing parties from the East doing well, West not so well. Trying to knock out the counterattack before advancing.

18)1450AD Took out their horse colony. Maybe it's their only source? Doubt it, but what the heck. More full boats on the way, but war weariness is starting to rear itself in the former Japanese and German territories.

19)1455AD I went through and rushed the Temples in the South. Maybe it will help against the weariness for awhile. We take another city and land a bunch of troops.

20)1460AD Wow, the turns are getting a bit long (no complaints though, I've been watching LK32 as well).

Ok, that's it. I took out their incense colony too just for fun. Take
out the Japanese next turn when all of the new Sipahis come online.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LK34-1460AD.zip

Here is a screenshot of the battlefront. The main Carthage counterattack occured here and there are a few more knights and cav hanging around. We weathered the worst of it, though, and we should be relatively free to smack.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/invasion.jpeg

3) 1375AD there seems to be a large amount of workers on auto
orders, but they move to fast and I can't catch which ones. I think
this is a no-no in LK games. Then, while looking for the automated workers I find a bunch sleeping!!!


The only allowable automation is Shift-P for pollution clean. I don't know who automated them, but DO NOT!
Actually, this is a no-no is MOST succession games.
:confused: Why do we have sleeping workers? I haven't looked at the game yet, but I doubt we have 100% rails and optimized cities yet.



Ok, that's it. I took out their incense colony too just for fun. Take
out the Japanese next turn when all of the new Sipahis come online.


Actually this isn't just for fun - this can be a very powerful attack move vs. the AI. If that was the ONLY source of incense for that civ, we just force them to hire a bunch of clown killing shields per turn. If they were trading away excess, we still kill them with hiring a bunch of clowns.



Of course, I got it.

I did not put any workers on auto, however, I will confess to using the rail-to option. I would have there would have been very few of those left and most of them would have been in the former German territories. I should have mentioned them in my summary, sorry. If there were workers asleep, then I must have missed them my entire turn. I wouldn't put them to sleep before every square was railed.

1460 AD - Those sleeping workers were really bad news - Hasting, 1 city from our fp, is still crowed with jungles.
I rush a lot of culture buildings, as this is clearly a domination win.
This is the biggest tech blowout I have seen in a long time - we are researching Steel, and the AI doesn't have factories, medicine or electricity. I drop science to 20%, as what we need right know is cash to rush culture like crazy.
We have ZERO escorts for our ships, so 2 cities switch to ironclads.
We have a lot of land to claim for domination, and TWO more luxuries to claim. I rush several settlers from 1/1 corruption cities.
Map stat doesn't work for PTW, so I can't give you any idea how close we are.
(I) 4 cavalry land on the island defend with rifleman, so I suspect we will lose some cities on that island.


1465 AD - Too much of our wo