Fulano's MoO2Civ Minimod v2.0b

Coming Soon!

See the readme for installation instructions of the last version.

Refer to the changelog.txt for more details on what is changed.


To use the minimod with older versions of MoO2Civ download Fulano's Minimod 1.5.4b (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=14465). A changelog and readme file is included in the file.
I stopped working on Minimod v1.5 in March 2010 because it was included in MoO2Civ 5.0 and later.

Will check this out ASAP! :goodjob:

I'm actually playing it right now, which is a rare deal because I spend most my free time modding rather than playing. :) I only get to turn 200 before I have to change something that makes me have to restart. I hope to finish a game this time! :)

This promises to be interesting :P

Okay, I'm finally getting round to editing the text keys, but I have a question. According to here: http://modiki.civfanatics.com/index.php/Civ4_XML_Text it sounds like text files can be named whatever I want. If that is the case do you mind if I move some of the TEXT_KEY entries to a new file and get rid of some of the unneeded files?

EDIT:
The easiest way for me to change the descriptions for the new techs is just to use the same text key of whatever it enables. (For example I will put the armor barracks text key as the description for the armor barracks tech.) This will vastly simplify the mod's text keys. While I am doing this I am moving the text keys into new text files based on what they keys refer to (For example buildings or promotions). This will make the keys much easier to find and edit for you guys who keep working on this mod in the future. There are lots of unused text keys in the text xml files that I am deleting as I find them. I am creating a lot of text keys for units, and I am deleting several duplicate text keys.

Ummm... OK.:coffee:

Just wanted to mention that with the now immobile planetary defenders you are no longer alerted when Marines/Armor/Robo-Warriors are up for promotion. :eek: (I don't really have a problem with that myself, but may add a note to that effect with the release of 5.0.)

It would be a good idea to add a note about that in the next release.

I was going to try to add DOMAIN_STAR to use for ground troops so their movement wasn't changed by DOMAIN_LAND improvements but that involves editing the .cpp files and I don't want to even look at that right now. :)

I remember a discussion of this when Babylon 5 mod introduced immovable planetary defenders (and I wanted to copy that), but I don't recall what the solution used was... (Using the DOMAIN_STAR - for Starbases? - wasn't it, I think. Although starbases can be active/inactive and receive promotions, despite having zero movement.)

That is right, starbases don't move! I'll have to go figure out why that is!

I was going to create DOMAIN_STAR for units that could only be on stars actually but there's gotta be something easier...

Also, I've got the text keys through the Sociology group done. Hopefully tomorrow the rest will be done.

EDIT:Oh my goodness! Starbases are set to move on DOMAIN_IMMOBILE. That's so simple! I'm going to change the ground troops to that domain and see what happens. I feel silly now!

EDIT 2: Yup, starbases have their movement set to 1 and the domain set as above. Now marines can fortify but they can't move unless transported. Glad that's fixed!

The text files are a bit of a mess. I'll be glad when they're cleaned up. I found four copies of the culture text keys, many other duplicates, but I think I'm most of the way through cleaning them, then I can upload the latest version of what I've been improving since last release.

I have a question about the star names. Where are those stored? There are tons of names in FinalFrontierTextInfosObjects.xml but none of them seem to actually be used in the game, or are then? Should those text keys for the MoO2 races' planets be saved?

EDIT: Darn! This last time I tried to start a game it freezes in the beginning of creating the map. It doesn't get past "Initializing." Doesn't work on any map, even if I restore the backup copy of FinalFrontierTextInfosObjects.xml from before I started taking stuff out of it and putting it into other files. Any ideas why?

EDIT 2: Even restoring the entire folder of text files it still freezes when loading a level. If I let it sit for ten minutes the window comes up that says your program crashed. I've no idea why it would decide to start crashing now. I started a thread in the tech support section, hopefully I'll get some help there, we'll see. http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=8930207#post8930207

Okay, so I'm learning that Civ4 isn't near as stable as I once thought it was.

The story:
I was done with the new text keys for everything.
I then tried to change the tags of several units to correct them (like banking system to spaceport) but that made things crash. For one, changing names in the artDefines files seems to make it crash, then trying to rename the banking system to spaceport and rename spaceport to whatever it's supposed to be named contributed to the crash.

I now restored the 1.3b version and used only my new techinfos.xml and text keys folder of the 20 files I had changed over the last few days.

To finish this version:
-I need to change the keys that I renamed.
-I need to make the other changes like changing the ground troops to immobile again. Then I wanted to release this version and start changing promotion icons to be more accurate.

Last Question
-Do you guys know if the text keys in the FinalFrontierTextInfosObjects.xml for planet names are needed? I noticed the planet names are in CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml, I just don't know if they needed to be in two places.

As to your last question: I just edited in star lists for each civs in CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml (the first thing I ever added to MOO2Civ), as I noticed there weren't any custom star names and I'd been making such lists from MoO II games I played for a while.

There are still a lot of FF references in different text files (like to FF leaders) that aren't used; since text files don't take up much space and there always were other more urgent matters to attend to, I've never gotten around to cleaning those up.

I'm not sure why you'd want to change text keys that function properly as is though? (Like the FF Banking System is properly named and referred to as Space Port in game.) It seems like a bit of a waste of time. :dunno: (I didn't know that this was what you were referring to when you mentioned cleaning up text keys. I thought you meant fixing the "(add key)" techs in the tech tree...)

I'm not sure why you'd want to change text keys that function properly as is though? (Like the FF Banking System is properly named and referred to as Space Port in game.) It seems like a bit of a waste of time. :dunno: (I didn't know that this was what you were referring to when you mentioned cleaning up text keys. I thought you meant fixing the "(add key)" techs in the tech tree...)

Ya, I was just being picky, but I'm not going to mess with them anymore. :) I was getting way to over ambitious. :blush:

I was referring to the add key techs when I said that as well as deleting extra text keys. Then I started sorting the keys into files so I can find them easier when editing things and I think I'll just leave it at that. I don't really want to mess with deleting the keys anymore. :mischief:

I can't blame ya. ;)

It's updated to v1.4b! Next I plan to tackle the promotion icons and make them unique so you can find what you're looking for easier for v1.5b. If that's easy enough then I want to include removing the promotion prereqs for more ship weapons and systems so they are accessible. In the distant future (v1.6b?) I want to change what the promotions do so they are more unique and useful.

I'll check it out. (Darn - I just have a v. 1.3b testgame beyond turn 200... found no real bugs/errors though.) :goodjob:

BTW, "-Tripled Cost of Astral Gate Piece (Dimensional Portal Piece)": I don't think the Astral Gate piecess should be in - unless they can somehow be linked to an automatic Defeat Antarans Victory (seems like no fun, and I'm currently setting up some custom scenarios for that). I turn off Ascendancy Victory by default myself.

I turn off the diplomacy victory myself usually, I just included it for those who do like it.

I would like to see the mod have more ways to win than MoO2 had just to make it more interesting to more people. For example my wife doesn't like games that you can only win by conquest, she prefers to win other ways and have more option.

I never really liked the Antarian homeworld win anyway because it still required you to build the biggest army which you could use to take over but instead you just shortcut to fight the Antarians and win without the work of conquering the galaxy...

I don't think the astral gate pieces are a good way to do it though, I think it's too easy to win still and it has no reason or story. To make it work it would need more pieces and more diverse pieces, enough pieces that you can declare war and take out enough stars to keep the person from winning). Maybe the story of the astral gate could be that it finds the new unknown Orion homeworld and opens a portal to it so they can come and bring peace to the galaxy.

Or the dimensional gate pieces could be kept and the antarian win added to it so it not only requires you to build the largest army but also have a good enough industry to finish the portal before someone decides to declare war on you before you finish.

Just ideas...

Well, you can play the mod any way you want too ofcourse. As for new ways of winning: if it's practical, I'm all for it.

Some feedback on v. 1.4: I like the complete renaming of the rewoked tree (:goodjob:), but have a few minor comments

- the "Alpha", "Beta" and "Omega" fighter squadron techs should probably be renamed Fighter, Fighter II, Fighter III Squadron (which are used in game, except for the unit buttons, which still show the original Alpha, Beta, Omega symbols)
- Probe/Scouts can now start with move 3 with the new promotion button; perhaps their start move should be reduced to 1?*
- Marine/Armor/Robo-Warriors can't be taken on board anymore to transport by Invasion Ships (but show up when up for promotion); don't know if this was intentional.

Otherwise looking good. ;)

* When playtesting I pretty quick had 2 scouting units moving at speed 5 (could have been more, but I missed the promotion button when starting the first Probe).

Well, you can play the mod any way you want too ofcourse. As for new ways of winning: if it's practical, I'm all for it.

Some feedback on v. 1.4: I like the complete renaming of the rewoked tree (:goodjob:), but have a few minor comments

- the "Alpha", "Beta" and "Omega" fighter squadron techs should probably be renamed Fighter, Fighter II, Fighter III Squadron (which are used in game, except for the unit buttons, which still show the original Alpha, Beta, Omega symbols)
- Probe/Scouts can now start with move 3 with the new promotion button; perhaps their start move should be reduced to 1?*
- Marine/Armor/Robo-Warriors can't be taken on board anymore to transport by Invasion Ships (but show up when up for promotion); don't know if this was intentional.

Otherwise looking good. ;)

* When playtesting I pretty quick had 2 scouting units moving at speed 5 (could have been more, but I missed the promotion button when starting the first Probe).

Goodness that's a lot of bugs I missed! I obviously didn't test it enough. :) My whole family was getting sick so I was rather distracted caring for them.

The movement promotion prereq tech was incorrect but it is now fixed.
I fixed the fighter tech names too. I'll look for more as I test today.

I wonder if the marine problem is because they are immobile now. I'll check that out.

I have finished v1.5b but I will be testing it today and I will upload it later today.

Sorry to hear about the sickness... :(

So the changes weren't all intentional. :mischief: If you simply gave the ground units the Starbase DOMAIN_IMMOBILE tag, that might interfere with Invasion Ships being able to transport them, I reckon. (But I'm just guessing here, as I don't know exactly what you did.)

Anywho, looking forward to v. 1.5. ;)

Yes, you are 100% correct. I'm currently looking into the terrainimpassible tag to see if it works.
I've already fixed a handful of other bugs, I want to make sure this version is very well tested.

EDIT: Looks like it worked, ground troops now "cannot enter space"

I've made it to turn 36 so far is all in the last hour fixing bugs. :)

1.5b should be a better version of the game. I played for a while testing it but didn't really get to test how balanced things are. I squished a lot of bugs that were in the last version, thanks for pointing them out to me.

You're welcome. I noticed you just put up v. 1.5, so I'll have a look. :)

Some initial comment based on the changelog:

"-Added rank promotions (Regular, Veteran, Elite, Ultra-Elite)
-Ultra-Elite requires Mrrshan promotion
-Ship specific tactics requires Regular
-Advanced Bridge requires Elete
-Advanced repair requires regular
-Other changes too, check the Civilopedia
-Make promotions more diverse and useful.
-Added immune to first strikes to Phase Cloak
-Changed ground troop promotion to strength instead of city attack & defense (so they are useful in space, troop pods)
-Added strength bonus and space defense to computer promotion
-Made transporters available to ships, added 5% city attack (transporting bombs)"

The rank promotions look interesting. Perhaps the Elerians should start with Veteran units?

I'm not sure having ground troops fighting in space makes much sense; they're supposed to defend/attack enemy ground troops, no?

Transporters (i.e Combat Transporters) are intended to transport troops, aren't they?

Did the Elarians get an experience bonus? If they do, sure, they can start with a higher experience promotion. They don't do much now, basically they work like vanilla Civ4 where you give them combat 1, 2, 3, etc to enable other promotions.

I noticed if you give a ship the troop pods promotion they can get the ground troop promotions which help then capture ships more, but it does you no good if the promotion does +5% city attack when you're trying to capture a ship in space. The change does not make the infantry stronger or weaker, just able to be used when you board and capture a ship in space.

In MoO2 transporters were used to transport bombs onto a planet surface as well, allowing you to bomb a planet from much farther away.

OK, thanks. ;)

I'm curious, how come you wanted to start Elarian ships at veteran?

What do you think of giving ships the "Regular" promotion when they are built if the player has a space academy? The original space academy used to give two levels of experience.

Actually, I like that. It's more useful than a 50% unit production bonus IMO.

I was thinking it might be useful to represent the Elerians' special ability - as far map reveal, I have no idea how to give the Elerians an automatic map reveal bonus on game start.

The change does not make the infantry stronger or weaker, just able to be used when you board and capture a ship in space.

So it soesn't apply to Armor/Robo-Warriors then (as they can't be used to capture another ship)?

I plan to make the next few releases of this mod only bugfix and balance tweaks so your comments on the subject are very welcome!

Actually, I like that. It's more useful than a 50% unit production bonus IMO.
I meant the space academy that gives +2 experience, not the military acadamey, though I do like the idea of the military academy giving a free promotion too. It would make it more valuable.
What do you think of this:
-Space academy gives regular promotion.
-Military academy gives veteran promotion. (I wish it could give both, but only one free promotion per building)


I was thinking it might be useful to represent the Elerians' special ability - as far map reveal, I have no idea how to give the Elerians an automatic map reveal bonus on game start.
The Elarians are an aggressive race and it would make sense to me for them to have well trained soldiers. I think it would fit to give them the regular and veteran promotion (or maybe just veteran) to start with. It would allow them to get the better promotions a little sooner. I like the idea, if you still like it I will change it.


So it soesn't apply to Armor/Robo-Warriors then (as they can't be used to capture another ship)?
It actually only applies to the promotions usually given to ground troops.

Here's the full explanation:
In Civ4 the combat is calculated as a percent chance using the two fighting unit's strength (like a strength 1 vs a strength 1 has a 50% chance of winning). I'm sure you know this.
Terrain attack bonuses, city attack, city defense, etc. only apply when the unit is attacking or defending. So when a Mrrshan ship that has +50 space attack defends he doesn't get the 50% bonus. But, if the Mrrshan ship had a +50% strength bonus he would get the bonus defending and attacking.

The ground troop promotions were +5% city attack and defense. This would only benefit a unit in a city or one attacking a city. If you give a ship the troop pod promotion you can then get the ground troop promotions because you are equipping your ship with troops that can have their weapons upgraded. When that ship attacks it is trying to board and capture the other ship, that's where the ground troop promotions are useful for ships (mostly because each one has +4% to capture, the strength bonus isn't as useful.)
I didn't do this part, I just changed the promotion bonus to strength so it always applies instead of only city attack and defense. Hope that helps explain what I did.

I was thinking it might be useful to represent the Elerians' special ability - as far map reveal, I have no idea how to give the Elerians an automatic map reveal bonus on game start.

One BtS tech (uuh...rocketry maybe, don't remember) reveals the whole map... -> starting tech.

Yes! I forgot that there is an option in the techinfos to reveal the whole map (bMapVisible). Satellites was the one that did it in BTS.

How do I give the Elerians a tech that nobody else can get? I know it can be put in the leaderheadinfos file, but can the tech be made invisible? bDisable turns the tech red so you can't click on it, or does bDisable hide the tech if it has no links to other techs? I'll have to test that one.

Please do. And I think we're in agreement as regards your previous post, so go right ahead!

And thanks to The_J for pointing that out. :thumbsup:

(Some more gameplay feedback I forgot to post: )

Although it again takes some getting used to, I like what you did with the promotions/buttons. Also I get the impression that the AI catches up nicely: there are more functional wars going on (as opposed to an AI across the galaxy declaring war, nothing happens and after x turns they agree to peace again) and up til now the AI was ahead in getting Battleships (and Destroyer IIs) well before I did.*

Did notice one thing: if you have an Invasion Ship at a sytem and you produce an Armor, it automatically loads onto it (so you need to unload it to have it actually defend there). Not sure why this is happening. (It doesn't happen with Marines, and I haven't gotten to Battleoids yet, so I don't know if it occurs/doesn't occur there.)

* In my last testgame I focused on Battleships before Battleoids instead, and now they are ahead in that, so that probably explains it.

If you set the cost of a tech to -1 and the cost to research it to -1 and disable it from being selected in Advanced Start, then you should have a completely ungainable technology.

The computer almost always gets values and bigger ships before I do. A few games ago the humans got Doomstars just after I was getting titans... They must focus way ahead in the tech tree, which is what I wanted them to do!

As with the promotion icons, CyberChrist said he was going to use actual pictures for ship part icons, which I think would be a great setup.

I did notice the ground troops get put in the transport right away as well. It is because the ground troops are not supposed to be able to be in space so the game defaults them to the transport. That's very bad if you're trying to build troops to defend yourself when an enemy fleet is knocking at your door because they won't defend the star, they just die with the troop transport. I'm going to make a post in the general modding forum for advice because I'm not sure what else to do about it.

I also think ground troops can move on asteroids. I haven't confirmed this but I know the AI captured one of my armors and a few turns later I found it sitting on an asteroid several squares away from my star. Maybe the AI just transported it there and left it to heal? Or they were marooned for mutiny? :)

Thanks, Arakhor! ;)

So I guess the AI is doing quite well then. (Personally I focus on Knowledge before Colony Ships and that usually works out.) From what I've seen (never got to Doomstars yet) they're way ahead scorewise until my systems start growing (which is what I focus on once I have 7 systems).

You may be right about the ground forces on Asteroids; I noticed they can't move in Space squares. As for defending, I don't think it's useful to have Invasion Ships around a system then, unless they're type II/III/IV and if you have any other ships there, the 'issue' doesn't occur. So as is I think this is the best way yet - barring a 'solution'.

BTW, good news from CyberChrist - I like that! :thumbsup:

Do you need any icons? I don't have time to work on mods but I can draw still :P.

The troops are fixed! When I changed them to Domain_Immoble I forgot to set the transports to be able to pick up Domain_Immoble units.

I'll get around to adding the Elarian omniscience then now that we know we can do it. Thanks for the tip Arakhor.

CyberChrist's plans do seem pretty darn awesome! I can't wait for them to be done.

Do you need any icons? I don't have time to work on mods but I can draw still :P.
That's cool to know! I actually don't want to change the icons more at the moment but I might in the near future, depending on if CyberChrist likes the promotions setup enough to keep them for his ship design system. If he does I'll try to figure out what to change them too and we will probably need some new icons.

Okay, changes made so far for version 1.5.1b:
-Added free "regular" promotion to the space adadamey
-Added free "veteran" promotion to the military acadamey
-Finally fixed the ground troops! They are DOMAIN_IMMOBILE again and they can be transported.
-Added "Elerian Omniscience" starting tech to the Elerian civilization.
-Balanced <iPower> some so the AI uses stronger units more (like doomstar and battloid)

Any other changes you guys suggest or should I upload it so it can get tested by you guys?

Good progress. ;)

Actually I think the barbs/Antarans ideally should stick with spaceships only, not ground troops. (In MoO the Antarans only destroy, not capture colonies.)

Upload when ready.*

And good to hear again from you, Deon! :)

* Actually I think you (or I) should make the minimod an official upload. I think it makes an invaluable contribution not just for v. 5.0 and on, but possibly for earlier versions. (I noticed the download count is like 1 now - being me.) At any rate it should increase feedback. But if you don't want that (for whatever reason) that's cool too.

Why not merge the two of them and have one combined MoO2 mod?

I intend to (it already works w/my current working version of v. 5.0); I just remarked that fulano and me appear to be the only ones playtesting it, and there have been reports of people not being able to get v. 5.0 Beta working, so I would like to know if the minimod also works with previous versions (I expect it does, but I'd like to know for sure, that's all). If so, an official upload might be useful. It wouldn't need future updating for that purpose, as I intend to go ahead with the current version of MOO2Civ.

So I've tested to turn 118 and had the barbarian problem... There has been about 9 stars captured by battleship IIIs so far and they're getting worse. First time I've seen the problem while testing this minimod.

So far things seem to be running fine otherwise. It's tough to tell how things balance out with everybody just barely fighting off the barbarians. :mischief: I wonder what causes that, maybe it's just on certain games? Or do they have the ability to build battleship IIIs once they capture a star? The Battleship IIIs might have started showing up after they captured Meklon...

But on to other things...
Actually I think the barbs/Antarans ideally should stick with spaceships only, not ground troops. (In MoO the Antarans only destroy, not capture colonies.)
I really want to reduce the type of units barbarians can get, but I'm not sure how to do that. (like no ground troops & scouts or something). Any ideas? I noticed some things in the CivilizationInfos.xml that could be related.

Or another idea I had that is related to this is to change the <bNoCapture > setting on battleships & destroyers and such to 1, so they can't capture stars, just destroy the defenses (like BTS helicopters). Then Invasion Ships would be used to actually capture the star.
-It would be more like MoO2's method of capturing stars.
-It would help keep the barbarians from forming their own nation.
-I personally think it would improve the game.
-We could prevent the barbarians from getting invasion ships (if that is possible) to keep them from capturing stars.
-Special defensive units could be added later that focus on on transports to hinder an attacking fleet (to add dynamic to the game.)
I'm not sure if the AI will like it though. I also think the change should wait until later so there is time for testing. What are you guys' thoughts on that change?

* Actually I think you (or I) should make the minimod an official upload. I think it makes an invaluable contribution not just for v. 5.0 and on, but possibly for earlier versions. (I noticed the download count is like 1 now - being me.) At any rate it should increase feedback. But if you don't want that (for whatever reason) that's cool too.
It would be good to keep a separate upload of this "minimod" for people who have to use older download versions. I was confused at what you meant for a minute. Where does a person do an "official upload"? What does this mean? Do you mean put it on the download thread?

I'm going to upload the latest version in a few minutes, so if it's not changed to 1.5.1b yet it soon will be.

Ajidica suggested this:

Also, I saw in the patch thread that you had an issue with the barbs spawing PDS's. Couldn't you just set that unitclass to NONE in the XML?

and TC01:

Well, Final Frontier is just weird in general (I mean it's code).

Pirate spawning in FF is handled in the python file CvFinalFrontierEvents.py, under a function called def doPirateSpawning, where it gives a list of the units that can be spawned and which part of the game to spawn them in.

But barb difficulty also depends on settings, maps size and difficulty level used.

Ideally, ofcourse, no space ships should be able to capture systems, only ground forces. (But I don't know if the AI can handle that.) Personally I have no problem with limiting system capture to Invasion Ships for now, though.

With 'official upload' I mean a proper announcement in the 'Announce your Civ 4 creations' thread and uploading it to the Downloads Database - like most modders do. (I was asking, because you said in the beginning you didn't want to have to continually support your minimod - which, seeing as I want to make it part of the main mod, wouldn't be necessary IMO.) Sorry for the confusion. :crazyeye:

Okay, so basically you'll merge this minimod with MoO2Civ and any future changes will be done by people who want to work on it in the future?

Ummm...yes.

Ajidica suggested this: Also, I saw in the patch thread that you had an issue with the barbs spawing PDS's. Couldn't you just set that unitclass to NONE in the XML?

I think this must be referring to the CivilizationInfos.xml? I did check it and actually the Barbarians have every unit set to none there, except doomstars.

EDIT:
Turn 90 when the barbarians started raiding with Battleship IIIs and they've taken 6 stars in the last five turns. Darn. I think there is a connection between the barbarians and what is on the map as well. The games they barbarians aren't destroying everybody the stars only have three or four planets usually. In the last two maps I played the stars had five planets minimum, usually 6 to 8. now I know I should just quit if I find stars that big. :) Also their first ships were Destroyer IIIs so that could be an indication of when the game will go bad. :)

I also found out why everybody always beat me to all the techs. It is because I almost always played as Mrrshan. I love the +50% attack. :) I now decided I need to play as random to get a true feel for the game. I played as human in the last game and got the first two values easy. :)



I don't plan to make any of the big changes I've discussed for a little while. I want to make sure this version works well. Maybe even consider it the latest major update for version 1 so next time I can start with version 2.0! :) I do still want to fix any problems anybody finds as soon as they are found.

Ideas for the Minimod 2.0:
(at least three weeks away unless I get to excited about it. :) I might get too busy too. :( )
-Pictures of the ship part upgrades
-Only capturing stars with invasion ships (unless it doesn't work)
-New buildings and Techs (I want to add several of the new tech ideas I posted in the other thread)
-New experience promotions (Using more of the unique features, and expanding current ones like capital ship tactics II and III)
-Change troops to star defensive bonus rather than city defensive bonus.

For playtesting I usually play random. ;)

You still haven't mentioned which level and mapsize you're on. That matters - a lot. On a Huge size map above Hard level I wouldn't recommend playing with Raging Barbarians: the map is actually all land squares which can only be settled and mined at specific locations; this means there will always be plenty of spawn locations. (I'm guessing - as I haven't played above Hard level - that at Impossible level barbs start 1 level up in unit types.)

Actually, on the barb spawning I seem to remember looking at that file and not following what should be changed...

One comment: when trading with the Gnolams I noticed I could trade Stock Exchange for Stock Exchange (except one of these is Space Port):

Sorry, I usually play standard size. Any bigger is too slow for my computer. I'll usually play with the default number of players, 7, though sometimes I play with six so i can get more stars before war starts. I usually set the star density to very dense. I also play on standard difficulty (the 4th one)

With the civilizationinfos.xml the barbarian leader has a list of all the replacement units he gets. (Like in BTS the japanese get a samuri instead of a maceman). All of the units of the game say NONE which I think people assume will make it so he doesn't get any units. I don't think that works though.

And thanks, I forgot the spaceport is actually called the banking system in the text files. I have it fixed now.

EDIT:
-Fixed the Anti-Missile Rocket to give a bonus versus missiles
-Fixed computers (I gave them more first strikes than I meant to)

I forgot to mention that I'd been looking at that xml file earlier and it didn't make any sense to me either, I'm afraid.

Well, I playtested a little more, finding no further issues, bugs or whatever. I'll hold off a bit on creating the scenarios - in case you do some more tweaking -, but expect to finish those around the weekend.

I myself usually have Raging Barb off when playtesting, as I want to keep an eye on how the AI is doing and switch between Large and Huge (depending on how much time I have). With my once multiplayer companion we played on Large size, but unfortunately 5.0 Beta doesn't work for him. I would like to MP test over the weekend as well, using the 'final' minimod version (on a previous version that works for us both). That leaves most of next week for any further tweaking or fixing of issues that might pop up in between before the expected upload end of that week.

Found another minor thingy: I noticed the Humans were at some point researching "United Planets". That should be "Galactic Council", I reckon. (Not sure I've already changed all UP references to Galactic Council ones, but if not I intend to.)

I've only used raging barbarians once, and it didn't seem to make a lot of difference to me. I turned them off for the last game I'm playing.

I'm not sure what else there is to change so I'll upload the v1.5.2b.

For a mp test, I've never played Civ4 online, but I'll give it a shot. I can test it on LAN too sometime. You're about 9 hours later than here it seems? I mostly have time in the afternoons or late morning today or Saturday.

EDIT: I'll change that to galactic council then.

I've only used raging barbarians once, and it didn't seem to make a lot of difference to me. I turned them off for the last game I'm playing.

I'm not sure what else there is to change so I'll upload the v1.5.2b.

For a mp test, I've never played Civ4 online, but I'll give it a shot. I can test it on LAN too sometime. You're about 9 hours later than here it seems?

Hadn't thought about that before...

As for Raging Barbs, we did have that on on MP, but got bored with fighting barbs instead of other races. It's... puzzling what rules those barbs... :confused:

Version 1.5.2b is uploaded. I do plan to at least test it on a LAN between my wife's laptop and my computer. I haven't even tried the MoO2civ mod on her laptop, hopefully it will work.

Will check and good luck. ;)

I played two 50 turn games over a LAN, one with just two human players where we won with a permanent alliance, and the second was a small map with 2 humans and 2 computers. I saved the second game on turn 50 and reloaded it and it continued working fine.

It might be interesting to know that my wife's computer is a MacBook with windows on it, so it's good to know that it will run on a MacBook too.

I had absolutely no problems!

Sounds good - thanks! :) (Never had anyone reporting if the mod would run on a Macbook. I'll include a note for that on the DL Page once it's up.)

Over the weekend me and Zippadeedoodah will try if the minimod works with a pre 5.0 Beta version.

Found & fixed more bugs (not uploaded yet):
The bomb promotion icons were incorrect.
The missile promotions were way to strong.
The bomb promotions were way to weak
Added collateral damage to torpedoes (to make them useful)

Edit:
What about ship speeds? In MoO2 all ships when the same speed unless you gave them speed promotions, but in here it starts out with scouts, battleships +1 and titans +2. I think they should all be dropped down to the same starting speed of 2.


EDIT:
I made the above changes and uploaded it as v1.5.3b. I really should have tested it earlier but I kept having good ideas! :)

Will check. ;)

What about ship speeds? In MoO2 all ships when the same speed unless you gave them speed promotions, but in here it starts out with scouts, battleships +1 and titans +2. I think they should all be dropped down to the same starting speed of 2.

Hadn't thought of that, but it's fine with me.

I checked the units in the game and some of the iMoves were wrong even, like the battleship I started at 3, then battleship II & III went to 2. I've fixed them though.

Also I fixed iPower further. Supposedly this number is what the AI uses to tell how strong a unit really is and for the titans it was set at 10 while the battleships it was equal to the battleship strength.

I am currently still testing for further bugs, I can upload the latest change when you need it.

EDIT:
I've squished a ton of bugs in the last hour, and I finally figured out how to change the order the promotions are listed in!
I'm playtesting for now just to see if I can find any more bugs.

Upload whenever you like: my MP testgame fell through, because apparently, after reinstalling, my MP partner now can't load any MOO2Civ mod version... :crazyeye: (Frustrating, to say the least...)

I checked the units in the game and some of the iMoves were wrong even, like the battleship I started at 3, then battleship II & III went to 2. I've fixed them though.

There was a reason for this: I think I changed BS II & III moves at some point to compensate for the fact that they in all likelihood started when you've already discovered 1-2 techs that increase base moves.

Upload whenever you like: my MP testgame fell through, because apparently, after reinstalling, my MP partner now can't load any MOO2Civ mod version... :crazyeye: (Frustrating, to say the least...)
That is so weird that this mod just decides to hate some computers for no apparent reason! I feel lucky that I haven't had any problems!


There was a reason for this: I think I changed BS II & III moves at some point to compensate for the fact that they in all likelihood started when you've already discovered 1-2 techs that increase base moves.
I see, that does make sense.


I'm still fixing other minor problems, mostly with gameplay now.

Version 1.5.4b is uploaded. It is much better in my opinion. Many of the promotions were still useless and I made a lot of tweaks to fix that. I still couldn't get to test the later stages of the game but this version is a pretty good candidate for a final so I can start work on 2.0 for the next revision of MoO2Civ to be released.

Cool! Will check it out. ;)

EDIT:

-Reduced number of promotions available to squadrons (they weren't needed really)

I usually keep the squadrons as they are until I can get the strongest promotion for them. (Things like First Strike didn't seem effective at all against Destroyers for instance.)

So do I, I only promote them when I think they need the bonus. In MoO2 the only thing that they used was beam weapons, bombs, and armor but I left more than that mostly because i didn't want to spend the time to upgrade them. It's so hard to get experience for them anyway.

I was thinking of putting something in that will give them experience, like fighter garrisons giving air units experience or something but I haven't planned it out yet. I want to wait for the next MoO2 civ version. :)

OK. I forgot about that (garrisons + XP); I don't think I've ever seen squadrons gain XP, though I use them a lot. (Whether they're succesful or get beaten doesn't seem to make any difference either.)

The only time I've had squadrons gain experience is when they defeat other squadrons. For fighters that happens on occasion but for bombers they almost never get the chance to fight, or have the chance to beat a fighter. I've only done it once.

I have a question about the holo simulators. It gave +20% morale in MoO2 which gives +20% bonus to everything (gold, food, industry, and science). Now in MoO2civ you can build a holo simulator on every planet, but the bonus affects every planet, so if you have five planets, five holo simulators will give a +100% bonus to production, food, gold, etc. I think that allows a person to get way too much of a bonus later in the game, getting 2000 or 3000 production a turn.

I had two ideas to fix this for minimod 2.0, which do you guys like?:
-Limit stars to one holo simulator (like the fighter garrison, not sure how to do that yet though)
-Reduce it's bonus to like 5%

True.

I'd go with option B: 5%. I've noticed after midgame production times get ridiculously low for everything, once your systems are pretty much built up. (Like 1-2 turns to build Titans, major buildings, etc.) I was thinking of adding build costs, but this seems much simpler. ;)

What about research times for mid to later game? I was thinking of adding +5% research to the holo simulator and other similar type buildings but I'm not sure yet if that bonus is needed for the balance of things.

True.

I'd go with option B: 5%. I've noticed after midgame production times get ridiculously low for everything, once your systems are pretty much built up. (Like 1-2 turns to build Titans, major buildings, etc.) I was thinking of adding build costs, but this seems much simpler. ;)

That's why I play on epic :). If not too quick lategame, normal would be ok.

I see. Understandable.

What about research times for mid to later game? I was thinking of adding +5% research to the holo simulator and other similar type buildings but I'm not sure yet if that bonus is needed for the balance of things.

I wouldn't do it. The bonuses you already get with the Holo Simulators translate automatically in added research (forgot to mention that: research times are also considerably reduced during midgame, when your systems start to grow). In addition to considering increased build times for units and buildings, increased research cost for mid-and late game techs was also something I've been considering. BTW, Holo Simulators are just one example of production/wealth/research bonuses available throughout the tech tree. If anything I'd be in favour of reducing rather than increasing such bonuses, so as to get a still interesting endgame.

I have noticed many buildings that have a too large bonus, even though they are identical to MoO2's buildings. I want to change them to make the gameplay balanced. Here's what I want to change for v2.0: (unless you think I should change it and make a v1.5.5b? If that is the case I do have a few other balances I wanted to change)

Holo Simulator: Was +20% everything, change to +5%.
Pleasure Dome: Was +30% everything, change to +1 happiness
Robotic factory: Was +20% industry, Change to +5% industry
Recycling center: Was +20 hammers, change to +10 hammers
Android Workers: Was +20 everything, change to +5
On a planet with 100 base industry it was getting +110 hammers, but these changes will only make the bonuse +25 hammers on one planet. (the robotic factory and holo simulators affect every planet in the star so the bonus will still be higher)

I also want to increase unhealthiness on industry buildings:
Robo Miner Plant: Was +1, change to +3
Deep Core Mine: Was +3, change to +5
Robotic Factory: Was +0, change to +1

This will make the health buildings more useful, as of right now I think they are almost useless (I only build the recycling center right now), it will also make the survival value more interesting, and people will think twice before building industry buildings.

Then, if this isn't enough I want to increase ship and squadron costs (not sure how much yet).
And if unhealthiness is too bad I want to add a few new health buildings that are missing from the MoO2 tech tree (like biomorphic fungi or something).

Agreed on the first, but as concerns:

I also want to increase unhealthiness on industry buildings:
Robo Miner Plant: Was +1, change to +3
Deep Core Mine: Was +3, change to +5
Robotic Factory: Was +0, change to +1

This will make the health buildings more useful, as of right now I think they are almost useless (I only build the recycling center right now), it will also make the survival value more interesting, and people will think twice before building industry buildings.

Then, if this isn't enough I want to increase ship and squadron costs (not sure how much yet).
And if unhealthiness is too bad I want to add a few new health buildings that are missing from the MoO2 tech tree (like biomorphic fungi or something).

I'd like to say that even with current health bonuses unhealthiness becomes an issue in midgame (or you must have really small systems by then); I currently use almost all health buildings. I'd leave the Robotic Factory alone at least. (For one, there isn't a Core Dump to erase all pollution like in MoO II and with the Recycling Center it's currently the only production building that doesn't cause unhealthiness.) But if you add something like the Planetary Core Dumps it might be alright. In principle I like the idea of discouring industry building, but I'm not sure the AI will care all that much - if at all.

I'm all for increasing ship cost, but not squadron costs (I generally only build 1-2 squadrons per system now anyway). Also, there should be a significant disparity between squadron and space ship costs.

If you have the time you can upload a pre-2.0 version (to be included with MOO2Civ 5.0) - although there might not be much en lieu of playtesting, as there's still some items I need to add before completion of the upload. So I'll leave that up to you. ;)

I won't upload it yet so it can get tested, plus I don't want to stop my current game, I'd like to actually win for once. :)

I do usually get unhealthiness in my planets but with the hydroponic farms and soil enrichment i can usually keep the planets growing at about 1 pop every 10 turns which usually is faster than the culture grows. I'm usually producing like 20 more food than I am using a turn, though with the first changes the food production will be reduced so I won't make the change for now unless it seems needed later on. If I do decide to change it I think changing it to +1, +2, and +3 would be better than +1, +3, and +5 unhealthiness.

That's OK.

I won't upload it yet so it can get tested, plus I don't want to stop my current game, I'd like to actually win for once. :)

:lol:

Let me quote myself about the tech tree:
Yeah I've played it, and the main "problem" for me so far is the abundance of techs which give nothing but promotion.
Even a small building would be cool here and there, but it's not too hard I guess.


Others give too much instead, i.e. basic diplomacy.

If you ask me about the diplomacy line, I think it would be ok to spread it on two after basic diplomacy, which would mean aggressive/peaceful decisions.

Vassal states can be enabled by "Military tactics", defensive pacts by "Xeno Relations" and permanent alliances could be as far as "Military civics", because this is close to a mid-game/end-game decisions.

Also I am not sure about all civics of some type in a tech and about this line at all. You could spread different civics between appropriate techs, and then you wouldn't need this line at all, and it would solve other lines' emptiness here and there.


Also techs need icons. I can try to help with it.

Also about the speed: Star trek has an awesome speed which is called "Quick Marathon". It has research and everything from marathon, but build speed is like normal.

I must say, it is awesome. You have a lot of time to play with your researched projects and they don't go obsolete when you just start to build them.


Marathon may be too much though...

I think a reduced number of techs (or, rather, less "branches") + epic speed research and normal speed build times should be an awesome game setting.

I see you're one post ahead of me... :p

I've just played another game and I think removal of "diplomacy->civics->civics->..." line would help AI a lot. While they beeline civics I beeline Titans and crush them :).

Also I don't feel like it's right to have all civics in one tech.

And it wouldn't be hard to remove this line and to move things in different branches.

Example:
***open borders to***
- computer (which would mean you have some kind of translator to set all necessary talks about the rite of passage)

***map trading to***
- the tech which gives increased sensors promotion (ability to scan known space to retransfer it to another race)
or
- some computer tech (like a better software/hardware which can compress and transfer your whole archives and pass them to your neighbour's datalinks).

The current problem is the "spread" of the tech tree. If you've played FFH, there every branch has its own different combat units so you can get any path. Here the top path guarantees that you win while other are optional. I would be happy if you could mix/cross the techs a bit to allow access to various combat units via different paths to avoid utter destructions of those who tech "a bit wrong" :).

Good suggestions. (Although I must say that I usually see Battleships before I even get there. It also depends what level/settings you're playing.)

As I said, MOO2 difficulty, epic speed. I am able to get Titans before AI because they tech to Xeno relations.

This post is way long, but I'd love to see comments on it's contents! This is a recap of the questions I would especially like to see comments on if you (the current reader) don't have time to read the whole thing.
-Should diplomacy options just be put in a free tech that is given to everybody in the beginning?
-Does Final Frontier use the large icons referred to in the XML files? Does it depend on graphics settings?
-Would you rather see the traditional webbed tech tree or the split tech tree into fields like this minimod has?

Thanks for the feedback Deon, it is very welcome to have lots of input on what to improve. :goodjob: You've got lots of great ideas on how to improve the game!
the main "problem" for me so far is the abundance of techs which give nothing but promotionThey're ship components, not promotions. ;) In Masters of Orion 2 you built custom ships using these components rather than pre-designed units that most games have. I plan to change the unit system in MoO2Civ further so you will only be picking a ship hull that has an engine and a base strength. Once it is built you will 'design' it to be for scouting, attacking stars, fighting other ships, etc. using ship components. Any ship would be able to carry missiles and squadrons, bombard, cause collateral or flanking. They would just need the promotions to give them the ability.

CyberChrist is working on a ship design screen that will let you choose a number of components based on ship size, before experience is counted. This way it will be possible to get more than just one 'promotion' per level.

Even a small building would be cool here and thereThere are lots of buildings that I will add in my next version of the minimod, especially in the Sociology and Biology tree. (see the New Technology Ideas thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=353350)) . I left room for these new techs when I designed the tech tree, that is why there are so many holes in it.

Others give too much instead. Also I am not sure about all civics in a techI figured all the civics in one tech would bug Civ4 players. :mischief: All the civics are in one tech because I didn't know where to put them as I designed the new tech tree and nobody currently in this forum suggested any ideas. You've made some awesome suggestions that have given me great ideas. I'll post more about these ideas later once they are planned out.

Also techs need icons. I can try to help with it.I agree! MoO2Civ needs new icons! I haven't done much icon changing, it's out of my scope of interest. :D

CyberChrist said he was planning on getting new ones by grabbing icons from other games. Maybe you should PM him and let him know you can design new icons. I would prefer to see original artwork for this mod rather than copying other games (except copying stuff from Master of Orion games :) ).

You are welcome to start work on custom icons for objects in the game (ship parts, buildings, etc.) I would like the tech icons to match whatever they enable so I don't think you need to create new icons for only the tech. I personally prefer icons to be in the 'atlas' format. I think it is easier to deal with. Does Final Frontier even use the large icons referred to in the XML files? Most everything in this mod just has the transport icon for the large icon.

Also about the speedI love the idea, I don't know how to balance speed settings though, and I probably won't get around to making many changes in the near future.

I've just played another game and I think removal of "diplomacy->civics->civics->..." line would help AI a lot. While they beeline civics I beeline Titans and crush them :).The AI races to those techs because they all like culture only. Minor Annoyance has made new AI personalities that fix that.

I do think things need rearranged in the tech tree for several reasons, one so it can be more compact. I want to limit each tech line to only three choices so the whole tech tree can be reduced in size. I plan to add the new stuff, then move stuff around to fill in holes, and even remove a tech line entirely. (I personally think Sociology should stay, but physics seems a little unneeded, or force fields).

I personally would rather see all the diplomacy options given in a free tech that everybody starts with. What do you guys think of that?

The current problem is the "spread" of the tech tree. If you've played FFH, there every branch has its own different combat units so you can get any path. Here the top path guarantees that you win while other are optional. I would be happy if you could mix/cross the techs a bit to allow access to various combat units via different paths to avoid utter destructions of those who tech "a bit wrong" :). I guarantee I'll beat your fleet if you just focus on titans and production while I get better components from the rest of the tech tree. ;) It's easy to get a ship that is 100% stronger than new ships, even with the experience promotions rather than ship components. The AI doesn't seem to know that though and focuses on buildings more. (The new AI personalities Minor Annoyance made should help a lot with that!)

Masters of Orion had a player choose between two or three techs at a time in each field while Civ4 has you choose among the entire tree. Usually a player just choose the cheapest tech field, making choosing techs much easier than the traditional webbed tech tree. I still think I would rather keep the separated techs but make sure each column of techs has choices that benefit each playing style.

I haven't played FFH, Maybe I should take a look to see what you mean.



I plan to post details on changes based on this discussion here. It will take me a while to plan out the changes though.

As I said, MOO2 difficulty, epic speed. I am able to get Titans before AI because they tech to Xeno relations.

Never tried playing above Impossible yet; I guess you're an aggressive player (I'm more of a builder.)

I think we're generally in agreement (I am very curious to see how this'll work out). As to

-Should diplomacy options just be put in a free tech that is given to everybody in the beginning?

I don't think so: it's very un-MoO-like and I prefer it to be available through research.

-Does Final Frontier use the large icons referred to in the XML files? Does it depend on graphics settings?

Sorry, I've no idea...

-Would you rather see the traditional webbed tech tree or the split tech tree into fields like this minimod has?

I very much like the minimod's tech tree design, even if it could be improved upon.

I love the idea, I don't know how to balance speed settings though, and I probably won't get around to making many changes in the near future.

The AI races to those techs because they all like culture only. Minor Annoyance has made new AI personalities that fix that.

Nor do I. It's not my experience that the AI has a culture preference at all (even before the minimod or Minor Annoyance's personality changes, which will be in v. 5.0); on the contrary, I usually lead culturally - but as said, I'm more of a builder.

I guarantee I'll beat your fleet if you just focus on titans and production while I get better components from the rest of the tech tree. ;) It's easy to get a ship that is 100% stronger than new ships, even with the experience promotions rather than ship components. The AI doesn't seem to know that though and focuses on buildings more. (The new AI personalities Minor Annoyance made should help a lot with that!)

Now there's an idea! We need more multiplayer feedback. :mischief: (I've lost my MP playtest partner as he doesn't seem to be able to load the mod anymore...) :(

As said, in my experience the AI focuses on ships before anything else. But at any rate I'll be adding recommendations on how to play MOO2Civ again with the v. 5.0 upload.

Once, again, thanks for the feedback - we need more of that. ;)

EDIT: @fulano: Slightly off topic here, but can you confirm that this: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=8977209&postcount=155 didn't work?

It's great! Deon's comments have inspired a ton of changes! More planned out changes that what I had thought about before.

I do feel like the tech tree is kind of scattered and I plan to make some changes to try to make it so you can skip more techs but still get what you need.

WOW it's weird and cool! I love Firefox. When I wrote this long post the power went down for a seconds and switched off my PC. Imagine my joy when I "restored tabs" in firefox and it happens that it saved the text I typed into the "Message" box with the tabs even in case of a power problem!!!

-Should diplomacy options just be put in a free tech that is given to everybody in the beginning?
No, and the main reason is because AI cannot handle "score" well in the beginning so they build weird nets of Vassals/Alliances which do not suit flavor at all (i.e. Mrrshan capitulating under Psilon at start; or Silicoids signing defensive pacts with other races).
Also when you get things with time, it helps to feel the "development of xeno relations".

They're ship components, not promotions.
They are still promotions and maximum they give is 20% str. (at least in the first part of tech tree). I'd rather grab some awesome building, civic or another model of a ship than gain +20% str which is negated by another level in "strength" promotion.

I DO think that equipment through XP is an OK decision (not the best, but AI handles it well so I am happy with it), but a promotion for a medium-cost tech is not a good idea, I think there should be other benefits (i.e. something related to the "ship part", maybe some base installation or small bonus, it needs just some imagination :)).

-Would you rather see the traditional webbed tech tree or the split tech tree into fields like this minimod has?
I like the tree as it is, but it needs some work IMO :). At least because MOO2 was VERY ship combat oriented, and all base building was mainly to faster support better ships, while in CIV4 buildings influence a lot of gameplay mechanics. So I think the "ship part tech tree" should be expanded to reflect it.

I love the idea, I don't know how to balance speed settings though

The current problem is not the speed, but the amount of + "raw" buildings (where "raw" is either raw hammers or raw beakers) which should be allowed only 1 per system but are built in all planets instead. As a result, systems become overpowered too fast, and there's no need in those "android workers" (+20 hammers) if you can build some Robo mining plants on each planet. I think that even if you could build such improvements in MOO2 everywhere, there should be two options:
1) Either they should be allowed to be built only 1 per system.
2) Or they should get lower yields, or better get scaled with the amount, i.e. next will provide a smaller benefit. There're various ways to achieve it I believe.


The main problem right now is that MOO2 ships were much more "expensive" in terms of Hammers provided/hammer cost ratio. In Civ4 you can use ANY planet (hmm, maybe it should be addressed with some mechanic too) and they ALL build your single ship so it goes out of the docks very fast.
I don't think that increase in ship costs is a good idea because it would ruin early game, but rather limiting of unnatural fast hammer-providers would do the trick.

I guarantee I'll beat your fleet if you just focus on titans and production while I get better components from the rest of the tech tree.
The problem is that currently you can't, and Titans are close to Robo mining plant which means that if I go that way, I will spew out a Titan out of any crappy system in 3 turns. So if I have 4-5 systems (as I usually do) it will mean that I will get more than one 32 str unit per turn, which cannot be beaten by any other teching path. Stack of death is a deadly mechanic, stack of death of STR32!!! units is just... well.

I love the idea, I don't know how to balance speed settings though
For the beginning, just make Epic game speed with normal game build speeds. It plays great.

I figured all the civics in one tech would bug Civ4 players.
It's not "bugging", it just kills the feeling of the development.
Also races should be different in government from the start, so I don't think that a single "despotism" would work. Also I don't see why Space Faring races do not have government from the start, they wouldn't be able to build space ships without proper organization.

Thus I propose: give "government" based on those in original MOO2 as starting gov. civics and give them ability to shift from it (also to balance the uberhumans with their democracy under any gov. civic). Make those pretty early avaliable in the tech tree. Then make 2-3 more which are more "advanced" and put them somewhere in the end of tech tree.

I do think things need rearranged in the tech tree for several reasons, one so it can be more compact. I want to limit each tech line to only three choices so the whole tech tree can be reduced in size.
Good idea. I like "logical" tech trees which allow choice but still are not overpowered in some direction.

I personally think Sociology should stay
I think so too, but it feels weird as a single "line" somewhere else, so if it would be integrated somewhere smoothly it would be nice.

Also the main problem is that there're not enough ways to counter military line at all.

I haven't played FFH, Maybe I should take a look to see what you mean.
At first, you should :).

And I meant this: it has a very wide tech tree.
A separate line for smelting/metalworking tech. They provide melee units.
A separate line for trade/logistics tech. They provide mounted units.
A separate line for woodworking/ranged combat tech. They provide archery units.
A separate line for magic techs. They provide arcane units.
A separate line of engineering techs. They provide siege units.
A separate line of religious techs. They provide divine units.

As you see, a HUGE choice. And you can pick any path, because you still has unit progression which are able to protect/defeat/counter other players who chose different paths. It looks and plays really great.

Conclusion
I would like you to consider:
Limiting the extreme +:hammers: buildings to one per system or reducing their yields
Making the tech tree more compact
Adding possibility to counter military line somehow, i.e. like some defensive units/mechanics in another part of tech tree
Giving different government civics to every civ from the start and making more advanced ones for the late game.
Probably revisiting unit relative strength/per tier. A sudden jump to str 26/32 is not a good idea for me :).

Get the Lazarus plug-in, Deon. It even saves posts, YouTube comments and basically any form data into an online "bank" for up to two weeks just for you :D

Although you give valuable comments, I would like to make a few remarks:

No, and the main reason is because AI cannot handle "score" well in the beginning so they build weird nets of Vassals/Alliances which do not suit flavor at all (i.e. Mrrshan capitulating under Psilon at start; or Silicoids signing defensive pacts with other races).

I can't really confirm this from the first playtests of v. 5.0, but you'll be able to see for yourself soe time tomorrow.

They are still promotions and maximum they give is 20% str. (at least in the first part of tech tree). I'd rather grab some awesome building, civic or another model of a ship than gain +20% str which is negated by another level in "strength" promotion.

Promotions/Part Upgrades can now give you way more than +20% strength - that's without upgrading to the next type of a unit (Destroyer I-II, Battleship I-II, etc.).

The current problem is not the speed, but the amount of + "raw" buildings (where "raw" is either raw hammers or raw beakers) which should be allowed only 1 per system but are built in all planets instead. As a result, systems become overpowered too fast, and there's no need in those "android workers" (+20 hammers) if you can build some Robo mining plants on each planet. I think that even if you could build such improvements in MOO2 everywhere, there should be two options:
1) Either they should be allowed to be built only 1 per system.
2) Or they should get lower yields, or better get scaled with the amount, i.e. next will provide a smaller benefit. There're various ways to achieve it I believe.

[...]

The main problem right now is that MOO2 ships were much more "expensive" in terms of Hammers provided/hammer cost ratio. In Civ4 you can use ANY planet (hmm, maybe it should be addressed with some mechanic too) and they ALL build your single ship so it goes out of the docks very fast.
I don't think that increase in ship costs is a good idea because it would ruin early game, but rather limiting of unnatural fast hammer-providers would do the trick.

Generally true, and this will be picked up.

The problem is that currently you can't, and Titans are close to Robo mining plant which means that if I go that way, I will spew out a Titan out of any crappy system in 3 turns. So if I have 4-5 systems (as I usually do) it will mean that I will get more than one 32 str unit per turn, which cannot be beaten by any other teching path. Stack of death is a deadly mechanic, stack of death of STR32!!! units is just... well.

I do feel I have to say that the average player won't play at Master of Orion II level (second highest level), and the mod should be playable for as large a fanbase as possible. Titans can be beaten for sure, though maybe the AI isn't up to the task... I usually go for Battleoids to secure my system defenses, and I've noticed the AI "knows" their value as well. In the end, however, all AI can be beaten, whether by Titan stacks of doom or otherwise.

Also races should be different in government from the start, so I don't think that a single "despotism" would work. Also I don't see why Space Faring races do not have government from the start, they wouldn't be able to build space ships without proper organization.

Thus I propose: give "government" based on those in original MOO2 as starting gov. civics and give them ability to shift from it (also to balance the uberhumans with their democracy under any gov. civic). Make those pretty early avaliable in the tech tree. Then make 2-3 more which are more "advanced" and put them somewhere in the end of tech tree.

I'm not sure about this: races currently are different from the start, though maybe not (yet) as much as in MoO. But I agree it would be more interesting to divide the civics more along the tech tree.

Also the main problem is that there're not enough ways to counter military line at all.

Actually there are now various military lines. I don't quite know how you'd win without some military development.

Sweet! I never knew Firefox would save the posts.

Limiting the extreme +:hammers: buildings to one per system or reducing their yieldsIt is planned, I mentioned it a few posts that about mid game everything is produced in one turn. It does appear that each new building costs more though. Like the first building on one planet may cost 50 hammers, but the second costs 100 hammers, etc. I imagine that helps at least, but not with ship production.

Making the tech tree more compactI totally agree, thank you for posting it! :goodjob: I wouldn't have considered taking out a tech line before because it's not like MoO but I think it would be better for the game.

Adding possibility to counter military line somehow, i.e. like some defensive units/mechanics in another part of tech treeAnother excellent idea that I plan to include. For one I want to add a couple techs that increase star defense for ships and troops, but also computers, armor, shields, and troop rifles do help with this. They give a strength bonus and a space defense bonus to make your ships tougher when defending.

Giving different government civics to every civ from the start and making more advanced ones for the late game.I do think the civics need redone, I'm not sure if they are from FF or variations of what they had, but this is something I won't get around to for a long time because I'm not familiar with the civic file yet and I want to focus on the tech tree and promotions first.

Just an idea though, they did have unique governments in MoO2 to start with, then later those governments could be upgraded. Can you start a civ with a civic that they haven't researched yet? That way they start with their native government as their civic and when they get to a point it unlocks the other governments so you can adjust as needed. Further down the line better government civics can be unlocked liked the advanced government tech in MoO2Civ

As you see, a HUGE choice. And you can pick any path, because you still has unit progression which are able to protect/defeat/counter other players who chose different paths.
MoO2Civ does do that in a way, Physics gives you your strength bonuses (beam weapons), Power gives you your city attack bonuses (bombs), Computer & force field gives you defense bonuses(shields & computers). The units in this game are all basically the same but it's the promotions that make things unique.

Probably revisiting unit relative strength/per tier. A sudden jump to str 26/32 is not a good idea for me :).I also agree that relative unit strengths are not good. I'm not sure where they came from, but I think unit strength bonuses should be spread out more along the tech tree. Also, Civ4 uses about 7 hammers for 1 strength, I'm currently looking at MoO to see what it's ratios are and will post a revised system to improve unit strength/tier.


I will post my ideas for rebalanced unit strengths in a little while, I'm working on it right now.

Here is a basic road map for what I plan to change for minimod 2.0 after MoO2Civ 5.0 comes out (I do want to play it a bit first).

Road Map
-Make minor bugfixes I have found
-Add several buildings and techs that are missing and add the new victories.
-Reorganize the tech positions and compact it (3 choices max, possibly one less tech line)
-Spread out the civic and diplomacy options more.
-Re-balance the units costs and strengths and their position in the tech tree.
-Release 2.0b for playtesting and continue to make other improvements.

Notes on tech tree re-balance
Each object you obtain in the tech tree should help you in some way that helps you get towards one of the victories. I have included a few new ones, They're described below.

-Time Victory = General (easy for new players who don't specialize)
-Conquest/Domination = Military Strength, Production
-Cultural Victory = Culture, Production
-Orion Victory* (Space Race) = Production, Science
-Diplomacy Victory= General (just be well liked!)
-Gold Victory* = Gold, Production
-Value Victory* = Science, Produciton
-Antarian Victory* = Science, Military Strength
* = New Victory
Orion Victory: Build enough pieces of the Orion gate to allow you to find and open a portal to the Orion's new homeworld, where they return and bring peace to the galaxy.
Gold victory: Obtain a huge amount of gold that would allow you to cripple other economies, buy off leaders, hire mercenaries, and eventually control the galaxy.
Value Victory: This one is more experimental, I'm not sure if I want to add it yet, but the plan is to spread a value you founded to about 75% of the galaxy. This will require me to add ways to remove values from planets and block values from spreading to your empire.
Antarian Victory: I've just heard rumors of others working on this but I imagine it being building several antarian portal pieces which allow you to send a fleet to the antarian homeworld in a seculded part of the map where you must defeat them. This makes you win because the technology you gain from the Antarians will make you unstoppable.
Each tech line will contain techs that have you choose between things that will help you towards these goals. Like automated factory = production, missile base = protection (for cultural types, etc). I will move things around to try to improve this because currently the choices in the tech tree seem rather similar.

Notes on the unit rebalance
Civ4 appears to use a ratio of about 7 hammers for each strength a unit has. This is a bit more complex in MoO2 because units have strength and they have ship component space, but the ships start at 6 hamemrs per HP and end up at 32 hammers per HP. Also they start with 1 hammer per component space space and end up at 4 hammers per component space. I think that is part of the reason production increases in the game, so building production speeds up but ship production is limited.

Should ship cost increase in MoO2Civ like it does in MoO2? Or should it stay the same like in Civ4?

I think the cost should go up slightly because when CyberChrist finishes his project bigger ships will be able to hold more promotions when built, adding strength that isn't included in the base ship cost.

I plan to start the player out with Frigates (scouts), Destroyers, and Transports only. Then they will get cruiser class ships in not too long, then battleships, etc. That will make progression more continuous. Units in Civ4 seem to increase about 25% strength each new unit (2, 6, 8, 14, 20 for melee units, 4.5, 7.5, 9, 12, 18 for city defensive units). I would like to try to follow that so each new techs will increase in effectiveness by about 25%.

Each new hull type in MoO2 is about 100% stronger but I wanted to reduce that to a more Civ4 style. I plan new hulls to gain about 50% more strength, starting at 4 for frigates and ending with 30 for doomstars. I still plan to include II & III hulls that will just give a smaller strength bonus.

I will also change the combat types to match each ship class instead of recon, light, capital, and carrier classes.

Star capturing problem
In MoO2 you capture stars with transports after you destroy the defending fleet and buildings. I like the system of only transports capturing stars and changing <bNoCapture> to 1 for the rest of the units but I'm not sure if the AI will do very well with it. I still plan to test that.

How do you think we could fix this?

My latest thoughts were to only be able to capture stars with transports, battleships, titans, and doomstars and make the ground troops match the strength of similar ships (like marines match battleships, armor match titans, and battloids match doomstars). Transports I, II, and III will match marines, armor, and battloids but do flanking damage so with a few transports you can wear down the defending troops then finish them off with your ships.

I will read the other text later because I go to bed now, but:
My latest thoughts were to only be able to capture stars with transports, battleships, titans, and doomstars and make the ground troops match the strength of similar ship
I don't think that limiting it to a unittype is good for AI, but an idea to make planet defence to match ship strength is nice. This way "capturing" would mean "landing troops which are on ship", and "city attack bonus" could be moved to a "experienced marines" promotion for ships.


Also I am not sure about Doomstars attacking at all. I think it would be a nice test to make them defensive only but give them "death ray" attack (like station's) which can kill. This way it would be even more deadly. Also the destroying of a planet through a special missile from FF could be turned into an action on Doomstar when it is based over an unowned system.

Just an idea though, they did have unique governments in MoO2 to start with, then later those governments could be upgraded. Can you start a civ with a civic that they haven't researched yet?
Yes you can, and that's what I mean. Also it would follow the MOO2 canon.

Star capturing problem
In MoO2 you capture stars with transports after you destroy the defending fleet and buildings. I like the system of only transports capturing stars and changing <bNoCapture> to 1 for the rest of the units but I'm not sure if the AI will do very well with it. I still plan to test that.

How do you think we could fix this?

I'm not sure. Babylon 5 mod also has Transport to move ground forces, but from what I've seen the AI doesn't really use this option. (And for my own experience the AI in MOO2Civ doesn't either: whenever I loose a system and want to recapture it, there are no ground forces to defeat.) If this weren't so, it'd be a lot easier to transform Invasion Ships to Transports permanently. So indeed, any idea should be thoroughly tested before implementation.

As concerns relative ship strengths: IMO there should be a clear break between Destroyers/Battleships and Titans/Doomstars (and possibly between Titans-Doomstars as well; from what I remember it was usual for a Doomstar to complete in not under 9-10 turns in MoO II and in most systems it would take much longer). Doomstars should be a class of their own and not be counterable by planetary defense forces (preferably only by other Doomstars).

What I have noticed is a tendency for the AI to use Battleships as planetary defense, which is another reason to decrease Battleship strenght relative to Destroyers.

Okay, while I was looking through SDK to find out how to make a stealth-enabling promotion I saw a lot of code regarding to unitAi (probably because I looked into wrong files most of the time :D). So theoretically you COULD adjust AI to build transport ships and send them with main fleet to capture planets. Then you would remove this limitation from telepaths for known reasons.
But only when you code it in :P.

My level is not enough to do it yet, so I'd suggest we skip it until we find out "how-to". But relative strengths is a good idea and I'd suggest to use it.

I think the AI will do pretty well with just the majority of the ships able to capture stars.
there should be a clear break between Destroyers/Battleships and Titans/Doomstars.I increased the titan by 3 and the doomstar by 6 from my original plan, that may not seem like too much but adding in promotions the difference will get bigger. I will also try to make sure the doom star takes about 10 turns to build and balance everything off of that. I think that definitly means I need to increase hammers/strength for each ship level.

What I have noticed is a tendency for the AI to use Battleships as planetary defense, which is another reason to decrease Battleship strenght relative to Destroyers.I actually told the AI to defend it's planets with battleships because their strength is much greater than battloids (battleoids are 24 defending a star) an they are relatively cheap compared to the other ships.


Some promotions will require the ship to have the bonus to be able to get it (like intercept). I was also thinking of giving a bigger intercept bonus to smaller ships to help keep them useful. Something like this:
Doomstars: 5%
Titans: 5%
Battleships: 10%
Cruisers: 20%
Destroyer: 50%
Frigate: 50%

Also I think scouts will need to keep their detect invisibility and increased sight range ability because you can't add that through a promotion. Or should I give it to stealth ships and spies?

Also I think scouts will need to keep their detect invisibility and increased sight range ability because you can't add that through a promotion.
Actually you can. I can show my DLL code if you want, or you may look into Star Trek's DLL. TC01 even made it a toggeable button through python, so just 5 min ago I was switching invisibility on and off on my wraith, and upgraded my templar vessel with detectors to see observers.

That would be cool to have, we'd just need to make sure Jeelen includes the new coding. I think the toggling would be great to make it so you can defend with a stealth ship.

Also with the code to include stealth in a promotion you could incorperate a multi level stealth system, like ships with the stealth field detectable by most ships, only ships with sensor promotions can detect the cloaking device, and only upgraded sensors can detect the phase cloak.

Actually I will include the "chance" to detect a ship too, there's such modmod in the modmod forums.

I've uploaded fulano's MOO2Civ Minimod (v. 1.54b) here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=14465 (link to this thread included)

It's now available as an official download from the Download Database.

@fulano: If you want you can add the link to #1 post. ;)

@Deon: Sounds cool! :)

I actually told the AI to defend it's planets with battleships because their strength is much greater than battloids (battleoids are 24 defending a star) an they are relatively cheap compared to the other ships.

But if you lower the BS base strength that will no longer apply; in addition sometimes Destroyers act as primary defenders - which is good as space ships should defend before planetary defenders.

Some promotions will require the ship to have the bonus to be able to get it (like intercept). I was also thinking of giving a bigger intercept bonus to smaller ships to help keep them useful. Something like this:
Doomstars: 5%
Titans: 5%
Battleships: 10%
Cruisers: 20%
Destroyer: 50%
Frigate: 50%

Also I think scouts will need to keep their detect invisibility and increased sight range ability because you can't add that through a promotion. Or should I give it to stealth ships and spies?

No, you shouldn't; they have different functions. Actually it would be nice to give Scouts a (limited) attack capability, as in MoO (perhaps not Scouts, but definitely Scouts II and up). Also, I thought Intercept was a typical squadron promotion, but I guess that's not so?

Also with the code to include stealth in a promotion you could incorperate a multi level stealth system, like ships with the stealth field detectable by most ships, only ships with sensor promotions can detect the cloaking device, and only upgraded sensors can detect the phase cloak.
I already have a fully functioning multilevel stealth vs detection promotions system running in my project. Of course, the completion of my project could be 1-2 months away.

We'll be patient. ;)

But perhaps you could elaborate a bit on it so as not to have more or less the same thing done twice?

You can just make different types of stealth :).

Also, you can list different types of invisibility seeing using comma.

I've included links to the minimod on the DL pages of patches 4j-l, which are still getting plenty of downloads, both here and via Strategy Informer. (Perhaps I should upload it there as well? Downloads so far seem almost as low as originally via post #1 here, but this might change after the new Civ4 custom creations list is published.)

I've been thinking about this:

As concerns relative ship strengths: IMO there should be a clear break between Destroyers/Battleships and Titans/Doomstars (and possibly between Titans-Doomstars as well; from what I remember it was usual for a Doomstar to complete in not under 9-10 turns in MoO II and in most systems it would take much longer). Doomstars should be a class of their own and not be counterable by planetary defense forces (preferably only by other Doomstars).

The problem, I think, is that currently Cruisers (which also require a Capital Shipyard) tend to become available after Battleships, while they're actually less powerful.

Yes, but they are carriers and use AI_CARRIER. They are used as support ships (and do it really good).

OK, but in MoO Battleships are carriers as well, no?

But in Civ4 they carry missiles OR fighters.

I may find out how to merge promotion code which would allow them to apply new types of cargo so you could take a "fighter bays" promotion and carry fighters.

And anyway they use different AI.

I was planning on letting any ship get the fighter bays promotion that would just add cargo space so you could put fighters on any ship.

Perhaps the concept of having Missiles as seperately produced units ought to be reconsidered?

Personally I think it would work just as well if the various Missiles was made into promotions that allowed limited ranged attack instead.

I think I agree with you both: already there are various Missile promotions in v. 5.0. Having them produced separately now seems a bit redundant. (Not to mention it looks kind of silly having an entire star system produce 1 missile in 1-2 turns that can only hurt an attacker, not kill it.)

I personally thought that Missile Base could be turned into an immobile unit which cannot be airdroped. I am pretty sure that it should be able to fend off enemy ships alone and bombard ships around. Think of star base with smaller str. sitting in a system.

I do think the missile units come in handy, and they simulate missile bases launching at ships from afar. I don't build them though, a bomber takes as much time to build and they are reusable.

An immobile unit in a system, that is interesting. How could you limit the number built? Maybe making them semi expensive?

It is easy enough to limit number of any unit produced in each system (1 per system, 1 per populated planet, 1 per population ... or whatever). In my project it is already possible to construct just 1 starbase/battlestation/star fortress in each system using regular system production, but they are limited to 1 of all basetypes per system.

I suppose it would make sense make Missile Bases and Ground Batteries units and then allow only 1 of each per populated planet in system. They could then gain appropriate promotions according to current missile/beam weapon tech levels (with automatic updates).

There is no real reason to make them immobile though, just need to set all other terrains/features than Solar System as impassable to them.


And while we are debating planetary defences then I for one would love to get rid of all the current PDF units - as they really don't belong in the MOO2 setting IMO.

Having said that then I am still undecided about how best to implement the original MoO2 ground forces: Militias, Marines, Powersuits, Armors and Battleoids. Perhaps the easiest solution would be to turn them into seperate levels of the Barracks building rather than make them into units (offering increased strength to their local missile base and ground battery).

I did have the ground troops set to be impassible in space but if a troop transport was present they would be automatically loaded on the transport, which is why we made them immobile, that way they still couldn't move and got the fortify bonus.

I was thinking of making the ground troop units have their usual star defense bonus but change transports so they have a bonus vs ground troops instead of stars. Then I have ships set to defend first against ships first. That way when you attack you have to destroy the fleet first then the troops are left over that you need transports to beat. I haven't tested it to see how this setup does though.

I did have the ground troops set to be impassible in space but if a troop transport was present they would be automatically loaded on the transport ...Dosn't logic imply that Troop Transports should be able to that though? ;)

The problem with that was that the troops weren't available to defend the planet once built, they had to be unloaded first, the troops would otherwise just go down with the troop transport.

Though it might not be a bad idea to give a troop transport the ability to defend a city....

IMO troop transports (now Invasion Ships) should have no attack/defense at all and ground units should attack remaining ground troops when invading a system. Don't know if that's feasible though: ground troops should then have a 1 move only (on-off transports).

It'd be great to be able to capture stars with ground troops but I'm not sure how the AI would handle that. I do want to mess around and test that feature but I probably won't have time until like October to look into that. I was wondering if you unload a troop onto a defenseless star it will capture it.

Another idea for that is to make the 8 squares around stars something other than space (like call it solar system, but still act the same as space). Then the ground troops could be set to move in solar system but not in space, that way you could transport and unload them, capture the star with your troops, and it would be cool!

An update on the minimod:
I've finished adding lots of new things for minimod 2.0. Lots of other things I wanted to add but I couldn't because the features require to be coded into each building and i didn't want to do that yet. So far I just want to change XMLs.

-New Victories:
-Orion Victory: Build 10 Orion gate pieces to win.
-Value Victory: Spread founded value to 75% of galaxy
-Commerce Victory: Needs scripting to work
-Antarian Victory: Needs scripting to work

-New Buildings
-Megafluxers: National wonder, +10 XP
-Cloning Center: +10% food
-Telepathic Traning Center: +50%? Espionage
-Microbiotics: +1 Pop
-Psionics Center: +10% espionage, +1% everything

-New Promotions
-Time Warp Facilitator: blitz
-Gyro Destabalizer: promotion against larger ships
-Rangemaster Targeting Unit: +first strikes
-Quantum Detonator: +100% Kamikaze Attack, resist capture
-Antarian (barbarian trait promotion): -80% heal, -1 movement, +50% Kamikaze, +200% experience

-New Techs
-Evolutionary Mutation: Free tech, health & happiness

-New Units
-Inquisitor: Removes non-state values from stars, from the Thomas War mod. (needs scripting to work)

Now I just intend to spread out the civics from the tech tree, re-balance the units and promotions and release it.

I agree with Deon that the Sociology tree should be removed, and techs do need moved around and cleaned up but I won't get around to that this spring. I've got a huge list of stuff to test and play with and change but I won't get much of that done. I mostly just want to release this version of the minimod, patch up the bugs and make some tweaks then I will start into my summer job. I won't be able to mod so much then because of lack of time and lack of internet but I still want to follow along and see what developments come about during the summer. With all these script fixes and changes I don't see a point in me changing the XMLs further until the other changes are made anyway.

-Value Victory: Spread founded value to 75% of galaxy

Since it can be turned off it doesn't matter to me, but it seems like the values wouldn't make sense as a unifying factor that would make you win. Like if your value was power, other people who want power would probably be your competition, not your ally. Same with wealth, you want it all for yourself. It makes sense for actual religions because it's a loyalty beyond your nationality, but sharing value like power probably wouldn't make two vastly different alien races forget all their differences and unite.

-New Buildings
-Megafluxers: National wonder, +10 XP
-Cloning Center: +10% food
-Telepathic Traning Center: +50%? Espionage
-Microbiotics: +1 Pop
-Psionics Center: +10% espionage, +1% everything

Cloning center should probably be more like the granary. The rest I've though would work best as nation projects that give the effect permanently, but I don't know how to do that.
-New Promotions
-Time Warp Facilitator: blitz
-Gyro Destabalizer: promotion against larger ships
-Rangemaster Targeting Unit: +first strikes
-Quantum Detonator: +100% Kamikaze Attack, resist capture
-Antarian (barbarian trait promotion): -80% heal, -1 movement, +50% Kamikaze, +200% experience

I like all those, especially since some of them I thought of before but never did anything with. The Quantum Detonator I wanted to get the pyre zombie effect from FfH2, but haven't. Also the Antarian -80% heal I thought would be good for peoples complaints that barbarians are too strong. I'm wondering if a kamikaze % will actually make it easier to capture them because they lose at least 50% of battles. I'm not sure though. Someone should experiment, by setting it to 100% and attack a weak unit with 100% capture and see if a kamikaze gets captured.

I did change the cloning center to give +10% starting food like the granary does. I might lower the % food bonus to like 5%. I want that bonus included though because a stagnant star would be able to start growing again when building the cloning center.

I added the kamikaze because the antarians in the game only attacked and left so I figured it simulated the antarians well. the +50% is strength, because antarian ships were much tougher than normal ships. They will die after their next battle.

I do wonder about the +200% experience for Antarians, is it beneficial? I don't know if they can even get any promotions other than the rank, and they'll only gain experience if they defend because they will always die when they attack.

I also wonder about capturing kamikazes...

(Early) Antaran ships are also faster than normal ships, not slower:


-Quantum Detonator: +100% Kamikaze Attack, resist capture
-Antarian (barbarian trait promotion): -80% heal, -1 movement, +50% Kamikaze, +200% experience

The Quantum Detonator, while perfecty able to function attackwise, is a last resort destruction act in MoO, when a ship is about to be destroyed anyway. Although the idea of a kamikaze attack suits the Antarans perfectly, as they only destory, not capture colonies. (Not sure how this could be implemented though...)

Maybe tweak the costs of running a colony for Barbarian civ so that it never brings them any income/science/whatever and on the other hand, give them a bonus for raising a colony (I'm not very sure about how barbarians work, but it mustn't be very difficult from civs)? So that it would be more profitable for a barbarian to raise a colony than to hold on to it.

(Early) Antaran ships are also faster than normal ships, not slower.
I remembered always getting 3 or 4 turns to prepare before the antarians attacked in MoO2 so I thought I'd lower their speed and increase their strength so the player has more time to prepare for them. Or was that because of the building that slows incoming fleets down?

Maybe tweak the costs of running a colony for Barbarian civ so that it never brings them any income/science/whatever and on the other hand, give them a bonus for raising a colony (I'm not very sure about how barbarians work, but it mustn't be very difficult from civs)? So that it would be more profitable for a barbarian to raise a colony than to hold on to it.
Hmmm, not a bad idea to make it more valuable for the Barbarians to raze a city than to keep it.

I remembered always getting 3 or 4 turns to prepare before the antarians attacked in MoO2 so I thought I'd lower their speed and increase their strength so the player has more time to prepare for them. Or was that because of the building that slows incoming fleets down?

No, you're quite right: good thinking! Unless you actively scout around your systems, you can't currently see any barbs coming.

Hmmm, not a bad idea to make it more valuable for the Barbarians to raze a city than to keep it.

That would be great, yes.

In my project the Antarans only have access to the galaxy outside of their Dimensional Pocket System during short periods of time when temporary Dimensional Holes - with random exit points - open within their pocket space.

This is controlled by Python and players are given a popup - warning them about this imminent threat whenever it occurs - and the location of the exit point is shown on the map at the same time.

They are unable to capture systems, working instead like missiles (their units are destroyed after attacking).

Also, the full effect of Quantum Detonators will also be implemented (chance that loosing a battle will cause area damage).

Wow! That sounds interesting. Can't wait to see it in action. :thumbsup:

Me too! It sounds to be an awesome mod!

Okay, so I'm down to the line on finishing v2.0. :) I've got one week before work starts and all I have left to do is give the higher tiers of ships free promotions.

I am experimenting with a lot of new ideas so hopefully it will improve the game. I'll try to keep up with bugfixes and tweaks but I'll have much less time to mod until September.

OK, cool. ;)

Major setbacks... I would have finished but the game is crashing again and I don't know why at all. All I did was give scouts and stealth ship II & IIIs some free promotions and added a few prereq techs. I know the changes worked for scouts, but for some reason editing the stealth ships broke the game. I've searched twice for typos, maybe the stealth ship just can't be edited?

I'll still try to finish it up bit by bit but my time is a lot more limited now!

Sorry to hear. I doubt Stealth Ships are uneditible (that a word?), but at least that isolates the problem. Haven't tried any Stealth edits myself as far as I can remember, so I'm not sure what could cause that crash... :(

From the Bugs/Errors thread:

Not sure if this has been mentioned but I believe the technology "Hyper-advanced Construction" has a tech cost of 10 times what it should be. I am playing on normal speed and it has a cost of 450000 tech points but most of the final techs have a cost of 45000 tech points.

Are there plans to further develop the modcomp? I totally fell out of business with my university but I didn't delete my MOO2-tech tree based modmod, so I may come back to it.

I can't speak for fulano (as I understood it he would have less modding time after his upload was finished and at any rate it's included in v. 5.0), but by all means do. Feel free to start your own thread on it. ;)

Nah, I will be out for a week more because I have finals, but by the look at my mod all that I lost are spreadsheets which I can make again. No in-game modding has been lost.

Final Frontier Plus has some new nice additions in the DLL. Did you plan to merge them in?

:eek: Mmm... I've been putting off a reply to this, but I've noticed I've done very little Civwise since v. 5.0 and from the looks of it this is unlikely to change in the near or not-so-near future. Ofcourse I'll be available on occasion for questions and such, but I'm afraid my Civ modding days are coming to an end...

:lol: Must correct myself here... I've been playing a bit of MOO2Civ today after a long while and it seems I've done a little something that might be uploaded as v. 5.1. If no other contributions are available this will be a minor update. Thank you.

As regards merging in stuff, I'm afraid it's not my forte... I wanted to include CAR mod some time back already, but haven't gotten round to that. As for DLL modding, I've like no xp with that either.

I considered merging in the updated Final Frontier mod (I forget what it's called) but some of what it does is more some AI functions from python to the DLL, and I don't know how to do python so I wouldn't be able to remove those while adding them in the DLL.

I considered merging in the updated Final Frontier mod (I forget what it's called) but some of what it does is more some AI functions from python to the DLL, and I don't know how to do python so I wouldn't be able to remove those while adding them in the DLL.

It's called Final Frontier Plus.

I've considered using MOO2Civ as my "test case" for the mod platform- seeing if I can build a "MOO2Civ Plus" mod using the mod platform (and plugins) and the latest release of MOO2Civ. Maybe I'll do that- if I can find the time to work on it.

But if you'd like to try merging, you're welcome to ask for help in the Final Frontier Plus forums if you have any difficulties.

I've considered using MOO2Civ as my "test case" for the mod platform- seeing if I can build a "MOO2Civ Plus" mod using the mod platform (and plugins) and the latest release of MOO2Civ. Maybe I'll do that- if I can find the time to work on it.

That might be interesting. We'll see how it works out. ;)

In my project the Antarans only have access to the galaxy outside of their Dimensional Pocket System during short periods of time when temporary Dimensional Holes - with random exit points - open within their pocket space.

This is controlled by Python and players are given a popup - warning them about this imminent threat whenever it occurs - and the location of the exit point is shown on the map at the same time.

They are unable to capture systems, working instead like missiles (their units are destroyed after attacking).

Also, the full effect of Quantum Detonators will also be implemented (chance that loosing a battle will cause area damage).

Umm... any progress to report on this? :confused:

Hello! I just stopped by.

Hi! I have that to sometimes. Which reminds me... how´s that opening screen coming along?

You know, I think my wife's forgotten about it. I'll ask her.

:lol: OK, thx.

Ya, she did. :) I guess several months of morning sickness would make that happen to a person. :) She said it's not likely she'll get to it this semester (she is blasted busy and it's only the third week of school!)

Sorry to hear... :( Thx for the headsup anyways.

So I took a look and can't find the files she was going to use, she can't find them either. Remember where we found those? I can't even remember what thread the discussion was in but I'll do some more looking.

EDIT:
Also, did that diplomacy and civic improvement by Minor Annoyance ever get included?

On the edit: I don´t think so, because it doesn´t show up in any upload descriptions. As for the MOO files, the original thread is moved to archive, so I need to look that up (I think tuxu provided a link, but I´m not sure and alot of contributors haven´t been on in a while)...

Dang, I was excited for the new personalities because all the AI's were rather... not unique.

I also wanted to clarify what was wanted for the title screen:

Use the MoO2 title screen as a template
The text MoO2Civ in a similar font as the MoO2 title in the top center
A starry background with a MoO2 theme

Would it need more? I know more would be nice but if it was just the background and title would you like that better than the current title screen?

EDIT: My wife also wants to know how close would you want the font to be, and how close does the title color need to be?

EDIT 2: Well she decided to make a bunch of pictures anyway and see what you think. They are in a zip file that you can download here:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15227791/MoO2Civ%20Title%20Screens.zip
Let us know what you think of them (Just a hint, my wife's favorite is number seven and she really hopes you'd pick that one).

Once we settle on a picture I'll figure out how to get it in the right format and all that jazz. We may have to do some XML editing too to get rid of the animations (they might look weird with a different picture).

Sorry been away for a while... :eek:

I'm actually in doubt between title screens 7 and 8. (BTW, they all look pretty cool, so compliments to your wife.) ;)

Can't do much myself at the moment, as I'm currently internetless...

Cheers, NELEEJ aka JEELEN. :crazyeye:

Since I'm not getting around to this, I'll just make it public and if somebody wants to mess with it they can.

Something is broken in the units xml file. I made a bunch of simple changes all at once without testing it because I didn't think I'd mess anything up, but the game started crashing.

I included my list of changes I made to the game to give somebody a clue of where to find the error I made. (Future plans.xml, it's a very messy file though)

The "XML (latest broken version).zip file just includes all the files I changed for this minimod v2.0

The tech tree plan is just the current tech tree in spreadsheet format, it makes it easier to edit if somebody wants to work on improving that in the future.

I probably won't have time to do much in the future, but I'll check the forums on occasion. Good luck to anybody that tries to fix it! If nobody tries I won't be upset either. :)