I get the feeling from reading the articles that via a internet connection CIV5 ingame will let you buy more content like civilizations and other features.

Lots of games have gone down this avenue to boost profits.

Which articles?

I think I could understand them selling Civs as DLC and maybe professionally designed maps. It's highly likely I would not buy them though and would rather see them in an expansion pack. I don't think I could see them adding anything other than those as DLC.

I hope they use disc authentication only as their DRM scheme (if they must have one) and I hope they go the traditional route of flat-priced expansions as their supplementary content method.

I really hate this new trend of plugging people in to some horrible, cynical money-extraction, DRM 'community' system. It's tacky and the Civ series doesn't need that kind of thing to be successful or profitable.

No. If they try to do that, I'll try to stop them. Who's with me?

Speculating here, But it does seem to be the current trend. In game shop markets for buying new content. They could sell a lot like units, civilizations, leaders, more things like random events, scenarios and other features we dont know about. I think Sims 3 went down this direction ?

Furthermore, they could limit the ingame market shop to small components and save big changes for expansion packs. In this economy, I would not be suprised at all if they try to squeeze more money out of this game.

I'd be very put off if they done this.

I would dislike this very much.

DLC for profit would destroy MP. They wouldn't do it for that reason.

DLC for profit would destroy MP. They wouldn't do it for that reason.

Not sure on that, theres a many ways they can set it up. For example they can work mutliplayer so every win earn you points to unlock new playable civilzations or alternatively they will just let people buy new civilizations with cash. It doesnt have to be new civilizations either, who knows what content Civ5 will bring.

If you look at Sims 3, that can be modded by the community but they also have an official shop to buy new official content. I mean i could be wrong, but loads of games ive played recently have this feature especially on XBOX and MMOs. But the description of the in game community hub to me smells of content you can buy.

In order to offer it, they would have to remove the ability of a modder to generate the exact same item and distribute it for free. Since Civ ENCOURAGES Modding, they wouldn't do it. I am quite certain that they are aware of the massive replay value and thus income generated by interest in mods, so they won't tie our hands and believe that they are HELPING their profit margins.

You mention Sims 3 as being moddable but also having DLC, but I would imagine that the DLC offers features which the mods are incapable of generating, because the mods are limited in what they can actually change. Or maybe as your context seems to indicate the DLC is just more professionally done. Civ doesn't exactly have that option, as most major mods are hands-down superior to the Firaxis base in almost every regard (at least eventually)

It will be the death of Civilization and I will most likely stick with IV if they go this route. I have no problem purchasing expansion packs but this is stupid, obnoxious and pointless.

I only need look at Dragon Age, with those pesky in-game characters asking me to purchase additional quests. No thank you.

Personally, I wouldn't really have a problem paying a dollar or two on the internet and getting a (professionally designed, of course) civilization. I think two dollars is probably my max for individual civilizations, though. Obviously, the expansion route is better, but I don't have any major problems with DLC.

well its not gonna happen with ciV so don't worry about it

i think Dale and xienwolf both made irrefutable points

A) it would kill multi-player, having different content means not being compatible
B) its already well known its going to be as moddable or even more moddable than cIV so it won't be long before mods take over this dept.

B) its already well known its going to be as moddable or even more moddable than cIV so it won't be long before mods take over this dept.
Well let's hope they don't lie through their teeth like SEGA/Creative Assembly did with Empire Total War. Like a politician they promised the world before launch, then delivered the least moddable TW release to date. Why? So they could milk the fans with half-arsed palette swap DLC's and NTW, knowing full well the modders could do a much, much better job.

Not sure on that, theres a many ways they can set it up. For example they can work mutliplayer so every win earn you points to unlock new playable civilzations or alternatively they will just let people buy new civilizations with cash. It doesnt have to be new civilizations either, who knows what content Civ5 will bring.

I play you in MP. I have purchased Civ X or unit Y. You have not. I choose Civ X, game crashes (as you don't have the xml for that Civ).

The only way I can see DLC working is if they put out expansions as DLC instead of as boxed items, and only if they didn't put out the items piecemeal and overcharge for them. But even then, why? That's the problem with DLC for Civ, I don't think you could come up with a good answer to that question. Don't want it in a box? Buy it on Steam. I'll stick with the box.

Besides, can anyone think of DLC for any game where they didn't overcharge?

Its almost bound to happen.

They can offer alternative graphics without ruining multiplayer

X-packs cause the same complications.. they just have to ensure they don't release too much DLC.

They make more money with DLC's than phsical X-packs

Its almost bound to happen.

They can offer alternative graphics without ruining multiplayer

X-packs cause the same complications.. they just have to ensure they don't release too much DLC.

They make more money with DLC's than phsical X-packs

Actually, to ensure even playing field with no extra assets, even a graphics pack would conflict. If they use the same type of asset check (a digital key check) for Civ5 that they did for Civ4 then it won't happen.

X-packs don't cause complications because they are a standard set of extras. You know if I have game + xp1 then it will be identical to your game + xp1.

How is that different from

Game +DLC1


As far as I see it, DLC is just downloading a xp...

How is that different from

Game +DLC1


As far as I see it, DLC is just downloading a xp...

Ideally, yes, but if you look at some of the DLC for games on consoles, not getting the DLC cripples, if not outright eliminates, your ability to play multiplayer. The main issue is that DLC tends to be small updates that cost a lot of money while adding very little value. I think Halo Wars had a $10 DLC that just added two or three small gameplay variants.

How is that different from

Game +DLC1


As far as I see it, DLC is just downloading a xp...

See post 14 of this thread.

QED.

DLCs are typically much smaller pieces, with very few people having the precise same assortment as one another (except those with everything)

Its the the pre-order/Day 1 DLC I cant abide with. e.g. Buy with amazon and get an extra german leaderhead but if you buy with play.com you get an extra civilisation. RUBBISH!

All this stuff should be included free and everyone should be entitled to it. Day 1 content is a rip-off too. Whay should I fork out an extra £5 for something that should be released with the final product.

Firaxis/2K - DONT DO IT. I wont be buying any sucky DLC.

I play you in MP. I have purchased Civ X or unit Y. You have not. I choose Civ X, game crashes (as you don't have the xml for that Civ).

Or they add the civ to every single game. Then you have the xml and the game will not crash in multiplayer. Now the option for me to pick that civ is greyed out. To unlock it I need to purchase a code so the option to pick the civ is decoded and no longer greyed out.

Come on Dale, use your imagination. ;)

Its the the pre-order/Day 1 DLC I cant abide with. e.g. Buy with amazon and get an extra german leaderhead but if you buy with play.com you get an extra civilisation. RUBBISH!

All this stuff should be included free and everyone should be entitled to it. Day 1 content is a rip-off too. Whay should I fork out an extra £5 for something that should be released with the final product.

Firaxis/2K - DONT DO IT. I wont be buying any sucky DLC.

Completely agree. DLC = milking the cash cow.

I don't think it will be done with CiV though. After promising the most moddable version yet, I don't see how it could possibly work. With the exception of Steam style, official and controlled downloading of expansion packs.

I refuse to pay extra for tiny mods ala the way Total War is going. In fact I shun the games themselves that do it. How can you have confidence in the product being sold if you have to download extras. Would you buy a car and take it back a week later (or a day later with some DLC) for the gear stick, and be expected to pay extra!?

Agreed, and Creative Assembly from the total war series are indeed a bunch of liars and they are less than trash in my eyes. they even lied to their beta testers and then they booted me from their beta as soon as I made a comment saying I was not happy being played like a fool. I even posted this on the closed parts of the TW boards, but they still put my head on the chopping-block for it.

Never ever again will I buy anything that has the creative assembly logo on it. Nor would I anyone ever advice to look at the total war series. I would stick with Civ IV if I see people complain about DLC. Here is one consumer who has had enough of companies playing us for fools.

Assuming modability, I doubt we'll have to worry much about petty DLC such as leaderheads, Civs, units, or general graphics mods - those are all items that could likely be done fairly easily by the community just as well, and likely would be after some time. The value in any such DLC would be dubious at best.

What might be interesting is entire scenarios as DLCs. Again there's the issue of the community being able to do the same thing, but Firaxis could likely do so quicker, with their full-time staff, and could potentially make very high quality scenarios (then again, in the past they've been hit-and-miss). The upside of this would be Firaxis-made scenarios coming out earlier than a full expansion; the obvious downside would be if it were tied to Steam or something like that - but a good note there is that CivIII and CivIV are available on several download services, such as Impulse and Direct2Drive, other than Steam, which makes that less likely.

But I still see the expansion route as likely. Not because of modding or even multiplayer - they could code asset-checking only for parts of the game that must not be changed, and not include any potential extra units, for instance, in multiplayer - but because the tendency with both Civ3 and Civ4 has been for new features being added to the game engine with each expansion. I'd be surprised if this changed, as it's a good way to add value to the game that could not be added through modding, and they tend to include scenarios themselves to show off the new capabilities. And these sorts of "engine enhancements" really would cause a problem as DLC - not only do you have to restrict multiplayer to the lowest common denominator, but worse is that you have to ensure that any set of engine enhancements installed will work in the game without crashes/errors/whatnot. Although certainly technically possible, I doubt any company would really want to take on that sort of potential liability when it comes to reliability, making the traditional expansion route more appealing. Add in that civs, units, etc. have traditionally been included in expansions to make them worth buying (and they often take advantage of new abilities introduced in expansions), and DLC doesn't seem all that likely.

Would I buy DLC? Probably not. I've yet to buy any for any other game. Definitely not if it's just an odd civ or graphic mod. Maybe if it's a really good scenario - but I'd want to hear that it was on CFC first. More likely, I'd just not buy any DLC until it's included in an expansion or the Complete verswion.

It really depends how it is implemented. Often DLC ends up as simply professionally produced mods (That is, entirely separate from the actual game, and not required to fully enjoy it). In that case, it's fine, something you wouldn't have had to begin with.

Bad DLC, is where a game is designed and some content left out specifically to be added later via DLC. I don't count Collector's Edition stuff here, like in Dragon Age - they were making games with special CE content long before DLC came around.

Where do you draw the line between DLC and an expansion? What if instead of warlords for $30 or whatever, we got vassal states for $5, great generals for $5, some scenarios for $10, and new civs and leaders, and whatever else was there I forgot to add for another $10? Either way, we would pay the same amount for the same content at the end of the day.

I think Fallout 3 probably has one of the better implementations of the DLC model - its a moddable game, and the DLC areas aren't really part of the original game, just more areas to visit.

Yeah Sims 3 mods aren't the same as Civ ones. Most of the ones I've seen are simply recolors of items made by the producers. That's not the kind of modding community we want for Civ. I wouldn't believe this unless I heard it straight from Sid's mouth.

The only DLC I wouldn't mind would be scenarios. But then, I think official Civ IV scenarios were less interesting than some of the fan-made mods, so I'd probably not buy anything unless I saw one scenario had enormous praise in the community.

Has this been officially confirmed yet? Downloadable official content

As others have said, it depends how it is implemented. Just because some other companies have did it wrong, doesn't mean every other company which sells DLC has to do it wrong. Bungie sold add-on maps for Halo 3 and it did not destroy MP. If Firaxis sets up the match making correctly and the DLC & game engine is written with foresight, there's no reason the MP experience should suffer in a heterogeneous content having community.

For those that don't know, Bungie offered sets of new maps for a small amount. You weren't required to have the extra maps to keep on playing on XBox-Live, the match making system just payed attention to who had which maps when setting up games. Later on, Bungie just gave the maps away. So in effect the business model is: free DLC was offered, you could pay a fee to get it sooner.

Everything I read has said download mods from within the game. Not anything about buying PAID DLC from within the game.

i think no article about this exists

i heard discussions about dlc; will it be, should it be etc. in some threads and all of these depend on nothing. and i just started to think that firaxis tries to sound gamers out.

Interesting that the Sims and Fallout 3 were mentioned - they're the only games I've had DLC experience with so I can say how I thought they went!

With the Sims, its a complete shambles. They basically have put up what amounts to fairly professional mods for an extortionate price - a dollar per haircut, it works out at, and some of the sets are $20 for some tables and chairs. If Civ went that way then there'd be real trouble.

Fallout though as a pure single player game worked extremely well - the quality of the extra missions with professional voices and art etc was really well done, and while some were better than others it was really more like just buying a small expansion pack.

As a single player game, the only thing that could work with DLC is adding extra leaders and civilizations. That could work - for all the modding community can manage, a fully 3D rendered Ivan the Terrible or Lincoln complete with voice work is likely to be beyond them. In terms of maps or scenarios, the mod community is likely to offer equal or even better stuff for free, so I doubt there'd be any benefit to it.

As has been mention incremental DLCs would ruin multiplayer, especially for games that take literal months or even years to get through. The only way that it could really work would be if it was literally only a graphic swap - Lincoln for Washington with identical traits and bonuses, but the leader just looked different in single play. I wouldnt really see the benefit of that, myself.

I'd think that probably Civ is one of the games that'd be best served by the simple expansion pack model, it'd work far better to introduce a lot of new features at once in a real x-pack rather than quietly bolting them on in the vein of Oblivion and its horse armour/extra houses.

the biggest problem I have with DLC's (at least in rpg's which I frequently play) is they are too short, and don't offer a complete story like you would get with a full expansion. Even if you buy several dlc's you are only getting several very brief stories.

A similar problem would exist for civ like games. You'd only get several bits an pieces of "fluff" and no real substance. I'm sure they can design Poland, Netherlands or some other smaller European civ, but how does that improve gameplay at all? I suppose if you live in those countries, you have motivation to buy them, and that could net some profit for them. Personally I prefer more substance with my content. Sure Beyond the Sword had several civilizations you could play, but that's not why I bought it. The expansion also had corporations and other gameplay enhancing features. Not just fluff.

I hope they won't do it, but I have a sneaking suspicion that extra leaders for the current civs and new civs (with new leaders, of course) may be released as discrete DLC or in packs (in addition to expansions?). Problems with multiplayer? Well, if multiplayer is better integrated into the game itself (rather than using a 3rd party service) they can just check and disable the choice to play a civ or leader that the other player doesn't have.

If you think about it, it makes sense. With Civ 4, Firaxis couldn't sell new civs or leaders as DLC because they're so easy to mod that they'd be competing with free. As soon as a DLC civ comes out, someone can duplicate it in a free mod and just stick a goofy reskinned leaderhead on it. With these new high-production value leaderheads, you really feel like you're getting something with an official new civ.

I don't like the idea, but they'll probably do something like release a few civs/leaders as DLC and then wrap them all into the expansion pack to catch everybody up for Multiplayer.

there is a turkish proverb similar to this:
if u mention an issue 40times, it happens.

guys, u really have no evidence that civ5 will have dlc. why discuss it so much?

there is a turkish proverb similar to this:
if u mention an issue 40times, it happens.

guys, u really have no evidence that civ5 will have dlc. why discuss it so much?

It's being discussed because it seems to be the wave of the future of gaming. Like subscription services hit you with a monthly charge to play, game companies can make more money (and keep the product viable longer) by adding content.

I would seriously consider purchasing additional leaders/civilizations to play, especially if they bring their own UUs. I would expect these to include fully rendered leaders and backgrounds that you couldn't mod easily. I would expect them to cost $2 at the most and also expect these to be DRMed in some way so that copy was unique to your account.

A similar problem would exist for civ like games. You'd only get several bits an pieces of "fluff" and no real substance. I'm sure they can design Poland, Netherlands or some other smaller European civ, but how does that improve gameplay at all?

It doesn't improve gameplay. It is indeed 'fluff', but is it fluff that a reasonable percentage of people playing the game would purchase?

I could then see the expansion pack that carries updates/improvements/additional gameplay to include these as well. Sure, you'll end up paying for them twice, but you got to play them months before everyone else did.

Of course it's all speculation at this point, but it appears to be the new business model.

Expect civ5 to have full xpacs rather than DLC.
It is very difficult to add DLC to a game that is as mod-able as civ, as it's easy to make a 'DLC mod'.

Expect civ5 to have full xpacs rather than DLC.
It is very difficult to add DLC to a game that is as mod-able as civ, as it's easy to make a 'DLC mod'.

Take this into consideration.

Civ5 leaders inside diplomacy are full 3d moving models with native language. You think thats going to be easy to mod? I bet civilizations will be made available to buy and will not be made modable. Thats just information we can make a good guess on, Maybe they have more new features that can sell additional content.

I just wont EVER buy DLC, I don't have a problem with expansion packs that release a good amount of content however things like the recent MW2 map pack thing(something like £10 for a few extra maps) are just off limits for me. I miss the 90s when a game company hired only a handful of people with real desire to make a game, now it's just about hitting targets.

I just wont EVER buy DLC, I don't have a problem with expansion packs that release a good amount of content however things like the recent MW2 map pack thing(something like £10 for a few extra maps) are just off limits for me. I miss the 90s when a game company hired only a handful of people with real desire to make a game, now it's just about hitting targets.


I see that the system has changed in the last 20 years. I don't remember, were there any expansions for Civ 1? I'm willing to purchase good content either incrementally or in expansion packs.

I also have faith in Firaxis (until proven differently) that they'll provide good content and I don't think they'll price content at £10 for just a few maps.

I get the feeling from reading the articles that via a internet connection CIV5 ingame will let you buy more content like civilizations and other features.

Lots of games have gone down this avenue to boost profits.

I hate it when games do this. Please Sid, don't give in. :please:

I've bought all the expansion packs for Civ IV. I'll never buy DLC.

I Have no problems with DLC, For all I know, it looks to me like it's the future of gaming.:goodjob:

I left The SIMS community a year ago because of the fighting over the paysite issue, it Just wasn't fun anymore because people had to attack everything. Please do not let the same vicious infighting destroy our community:cool:

Why not release DLC if they can earn some extra money from it? It's not much different from before really.

You either -
1. Buy the vanilla for ca 50$ and perhaps add 1 civs/month via DLC for 5$ each, and pay a bit more to have the extra content earlier.
..or..
2. You buy the vanilla for 50$ and buy the expansion for 30$ that has the extra content bundled a year after civ5 was released.
..or..
3. You wait for the gold edition with the vanilla and all expansions bundled for 50$ a few years later.

I'm going for option nr 2.

I play you in MP. I have purchased Civ X or unit Y. You have not. I choose Civ X, game crashes (as you don't have the xml for that Civ).

Not necessarily, Firaxis could include the art assets for all DLC in patches as they come out and simply allow only those who have purchased the DLC to use them (Company of Heros did this with the new armies it added in it's expansion pack, you could still use those armies against vanilla opponents but they were restricted to the original factions.)

If the art is there, we'll be able to use it ;).

I really cant see any way this would happen, Firaxis/2K clearly seem to be aiming to support modding and mods have always been free. Adding payed-4-content (other then expansions packs) into that mix to compete with community mods just a bad idea, it could sour the whole community.

The only thing I think they would even consider is providing moders with some kind of tool/system to allow them to charge for their mods but I think most moders would even use it as their is such a strong open source spirit among us. Even supposing semi-commercial operations are set up I don't see how anyone could ever make a dime either as their would always be WAY too much free content to compete with. On the other hand allowing an optional pay-pal donate option inside this mod-hosting-shell would be nice, would allow fans to show their appreciation for mods they like.

I can see them releasing free civilizations as DLC because, let's face it, making leaderheads this time around may be more difficult than the average modder would reasonable put up with.

I don't see why they wouldn't release it as free though. It isn't like 18 of the 50 dollars I'm going to pay for the game is for the civilizations that come with the game.

Besides, I don't have a problem with playing a civilization that has a static leaderhead that doesn't even speak.

features>eye candy

I heard that they will allow mods that have been reviewed to be an option for DLC. Seeing that others will be creating the mods, I don't see how they can charge for this content.

I prefer an expansion pack, but simple DLC would be nice also. Perhaps more resources, terrain, ect.

maybe a firaxis employee has just created 15-20 cfc users and write posts about DLC's better sides, all the time :)

this dlc issue really doesn't fit supply/demand theories. 50$ for vanilla is already expensive. even if they implement dlc's, so few will pay for it.

I guess it depends how you look at it...when I think how many hundreds of hours of enjoyment I get out of each Civ game the price looks very reasonable especially when I compare it to other entertainment options like a trip to the cinema or a sports event.

Our kids were asking us last year why we couldn't eat out more (I wonder what's wrong with my cooking)...when I explained that each trip to TGI Fridays cost as much as a video game they got it immediately and have since taken to complaining about the cost when we do eat out.

Hell no I ain't paying, I'll pay for the game, not for mods

Please no DLC. They are like failure expansion packs saying "We're too lazy to make a real/non-beta game so here are some things we should have included in the game but now you get to pay for the wonders of 4 extra units you'll never really use and mess up multiplayer and all mods!" (Please note my experiance with DLC is entirely based on Empire Total War.

This was discussed in detail in the DLC thread.

It's a great idea and they should have C5 DLC.

And it wouldn't kill the MP community. Options not loaded are unavailable, end of story. Much like when you connect to the MP lobby using Warlords and it tells you that you can't join a BtS game. If you start a game using the PolandCivPak, only people that have the PolandCivPak will be able to join.

maybe a firaxis employee has just created 15-20 cfc users and write posts about DLC's better sides, all the time :)

this dlc issue really doesn't fit supply/demand theories. 50$ for vanilla is already expensive. even if they implement dlc's, so few will pay for it.

The overall success of DLC proves that to be incorrect.

Rock Band cost $200 when it came out and sells a ridiculous amount of DLC.

DLC simply wouldn't be viable with the mod tools firaxis are stating they will be implementing. Any minor download beffiting of DLC content would be ripped off/coppied and improved apon by modders in days, and made available for easy download by the in game modding downloader. Firaxis simply could not compete with that, trying to do so would be like banging their head into a wall, and would force them to take draconian steps that would be counterproductive if they tried to fight the modders.

Firaxis has made the decision to make DLC like content free and easily available to players in a user friendly way with their mod downloader system. Basically they are counting on the modders to enhance the experience and playability of the game, with the small cost of the initial software to support the in game mod downloader, this allows their employees to work on other, more long term products, such as expansion packs; while still giving the community the experience of DLC like content for free, and at virtually no cost. This was a buisness decision that must have been made when Firaxis chose to go with an automatic mod downloader, and the decision is pretty much irreversible at this point.

Ben through it with Fallout 3's DLC. I know some non-Steam players of Left 4 Dead had to pay for there DLC while Steam users gotten it for free.

Hopefully this would not happen for CiV.

Firaxis are better off focusing their resources elsewhere. Rather make a really good expansion and see it sell for years to come, instead of a half-arsed one while you also churn out crappy DLCs and only see that sell while the game is "in". And cIV as a game has never been "in", it is a niche, but an absolutely hardcore one.

Personally I have never bought DLC

I buy DLC for games that it makes sense: Rock Band, because then I am only adding songs I want when I want to play them.

Civ has DLC and its all over this site, its called mods. These mods are worth the price because they still have me playing a 5 year old game right now. There will not be and paid DLC for the Civ series as a long as there are mods made for free. Now, everyone over reacting to them allowing mods to be downloaded in the game needs to not worry. Paid DLC is NEVER coming to a game that allows free mod downloads.

I buy DLC for games that it makes sense: Rock Band, because then I am only adding songs I want when I want to play them.

Civ has DLC and its all over this site, its called mods. These mods are worth the price because they still have me playing a 5 year old game right now. There will not be and paid DLC for the Civ series as a long as there are mods made for free. Now, everyone over reacting to them allowing mods to be downloaded in the game needs to not worry. Paid DLC is NEVER coming to a game that allows free mod downloads.Modders may not have enough resources to add another leader with spoken voice and everything. Even if they would make this, it would most likely be of substandard quality. In Civ IV you could add leaders because the diplomacy was not spoken. Now in 5 it is, so that adds another problem for modders.

All in all I would not go as far as saying DLC could not happen because of the modding capabilities, but in the end I would infinitely prefer any complete expansion over some DLC things or two.

if a modder guy makes a dlc with less marketing concerns (assume firaxis let that), i might pay him if i like and get the dlc.
just consider this like a "independent film"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_film

but if firaxis does that, i won't pay them :)


very simple. it's because if firaxis starts doing that, they will not stop. and dlc will spread fastly in civ saga. they will do it with high marketing concerns, and that will dramatically decrease the quality of vanilla game. and everybody will be dissatisfied with the vanilla.

firaxis is not totally owned by SM, is it? it has to think of its shareholders and maximising profit.

if a modder guy becomes a professional and does everything he does with high marketing concerns and if i sense that, then my probability of paying him decreases accordingly.

I buy DLC for games that it makes sense: Rock Band, because then I am only adding songs I want when I want to play them.

Civ has DLC and its all over this site, its called mods. These mods are worth the price because they still have me playing a 5 year old game right now. There will not be and paid DLC for the Civ series as a long as there are mods made for free. Now, everyone over reacting to them allowing mods to be downloaded in the game needs to not worry. Paid DLC is NEVER coming to a game that allows free mod downloads.

Really? Very few of the fan made mods are professional level (some are, which I'm not disputing). But if Firaxis offered an Official Poland-Hungary-Austria DLC pack for $5, you wouldn't buy it?

And the other point I made in the DLC thread:

Civ4 sold 3 million copies. There are less than 50,000 registered users on this site. That means that 2,950,000 Civ4 owners never registered here to download any mods. And this is the biggest Civ site ever. If on startup DLC packs were offered in a splash screen (similar to the Paradox loading screens), they'd sell.

If every single person on Civfanatics protested the DLC decision and refused to buy Civ5, sales would be affected insignificantly which would be more than made up for by the DLC sales to the non-Civfanatics people.

Really? Very few of the fan made mods are professional level (some are, which I'm not disputing). But if Firaxis offered an Official Poland-Hungary-Austria DLC pack for $5, you wouldn't buy it?

Here are some professional quality modpacks for civ4:
Planetfall (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=253775)
History of the Three Kingdoms (http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=346)
Legends of Revolution (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=325253)
The BUG mod (https://sourceforge.net/projects/civ4bug/)

Here is some art that is on par with, or excedes the art used in BtS:
Ekmek's Leaderhead Gallery (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=277514)
The Capo's Leaderhead Gallery (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=300561)
Ambrox's Classical Age Units (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=344974)
SabiotLeit's Femal Great People (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=349231)
And there are about a half dozen other graphics artists that consistently produce high quality work.

Civ4 sold 3 million copies. There are less than 50,000 registered users on this site. That means that 2,950,000 Civ4 owners never registered here to download any mods. And this is the biggest Civ site ever. If on startup DLC packs were offered in a splash screen (similar to the Paradox loading screens), they'd sell.

If every single person on Civfanatics protested the DLC decision and refused to buy Civ5, sales would be affected insignificantly which would be more than made up for by the DLC sales to the non-Civfanatics people.

You can download without registering, and most large mods are hosted off site, as CivFanatics has a 10MB file size limit. As an example Fall From Heaven 2 itself has around half a million downloads. That's not statistically insignificant, and that's only a single mod. Further the amount of users that are going to use mods is going to drastically increase, due to the announced in game mod download system. If Firaxis were to produce DLC their new mod download system would be in direct competition with it. It's unlikely they would invest resources in developing this tool, if they intended to directly compete with it.

You are also forgetting that people who play multi player need both groups with the same files for it to work correctly. DLC that gets loaded into the main file will fragment the online pools further. At least with mods, they are not on the root file, thus everyone still can play the root game. DLC for civ packs would make the expansions packs useless, and make buying everything even more. Plus, what is the point in Firaxis releasing Poland for 5 bucks when you can get just about the same thing for free INSIDE THE SAME GAME?

IE: In Rock Band, if only one of four people do not have lets say "Smells like Teen Spirit", then the song can not be played by all. Or for seeing what fragmented online looks like, try playing Guitar hero, where you need 6 different discs to get the chance to play with the entire online community.

There are less than 50,000 registered users on this site.

179,905 registered users as of this post :smug:
though only 47525 users have 3 or more posts in subforums that count posts and thus show up in the member search.

So its happening... DLC for Civlizations, more leaders and civilizations are inevitable

As an example Fall From Heaven 2 itself has around half a million downloads. That's not statistically insignificant, and that's only a single mod.

A high percentage of that count is repeat downloads to update to latest version though. ;)

I'm not discounting that FFH2 had a massive user download count, but a percentage of users would have to download it 2, 3, 8 times to keep up to date.

When saying that official paid-for DLC will compete with free user-made content, people are assuming that Civ5 will be just as moddable as Civ4. That's what we've been promised so far. However until the game is actually released we have no way of knowing just how moddable it really is. For example, as people have mentioned already, 3-D animated leaders pacing up and down their palaces and speaking in their native languages isn't something that is easily moddable.

I'm just worried that if the game's publishers decide that they'll make more money from paid-for DLC rather than from the fan base in the mod community, I'm sure they will go down that route, all the time claiming that it's for our own comfort and benefit.

If 1 million people buy just one $10 DLC, that more than covers the lost profits if 50000 mod community fans don't buy the $50 game at all.

Sorry for being so sceptical. I sure hope they won't dare to screw over this community, but the whole Steam/DLC thing and the $10 price tag for Babylonia is making me very worried.

No.
Buy the game, make it 1 full complete game, without requiring downloads.
I don't download mods, just patches when the game designers screw up.
Make it work before you ship it.
There are plenty of places, like this, where they can get feedback on what we want in their game.

You're assuming that people who haven't come across CFC would buy the dlc (that does mean downloadable content, doesn't it?). Since nearly everyone who's posted on here says they wouldn't, other people with similar characters (eg like playing civ) would be unlikely to either?

Since nearly everyone who's posted on here says they wouldn't, other people with similar characters (eg like playing civ) would be unlikely to either?

People who hang out on a Civ message board and post angry messages about steam and DRM are representative of Civ purchasers in general no? Hell no.