Wow ! What a map !

The rule of thumb is to avoid the spoiler thread until you have played to 1 AD. That is often considered a halfway point. You may want to wait until 1000AD on this one. I have already played past 1000 AD - which I NEVER do - and I have not conquered, or even explored, half the map yet. Yet, as far as I know, my game is going about as well as possible.

I'll probably post a log later. The main decisions were these:

* I used the size one trick twice. This required 6 turns wandering westwards to find an iron special, and the two other settlers wandered even longer. But you've gotta go west anyway, so I think the time was well spent.

* I split my [early] civ into separate East and West clusters. The West Civ was founded by the long-wandering settlers and their offspring. Its main goal was to reach the first sea by the time I got mapmaking, and to prepare flotillas ASAP. Secondly, to deal with any AIs on the way, and eventually to make roads for armies and vans. The East Civ ICS'd until it could focus on making vans, for WoWs, and eventually for overseas trade. This plan worked out OK, but the West Civ suffered terrible corruption and waste, especially before Monarchy in 1050 BC.

* I bypassed the Mongols and Spanish, with as little fighting as possible, always focusing on a Westward push. I eventually destroyed the Mongols in 800 AD to clear the road system and lower my defense costs. I am keeping 2 Spanish cities as pets, with Persia starting to follow the same pattern.

* Eventually, I realized this is going to be a long long game ... at least 80 turns longer than any known "early conquest" game, maybe even extending into the modern age. So, I switched to Republic in 540 AD, and am planning a big-trade game to get modern techs ASAP. Just in case crusaders are obsolete before I reach Rome.

The good news is the Persians and Vikings seem to have their science permanently set to zero. The Persians offered little resistance [but it did take 20 to 30 turns to get past dozens of Settlers and warriors wandering thru the mountains]. But the Romans are just the opposite, and they are still slightly ahead of me in science.

The other bad news is that trade potential seems mediocre; no great STC sites, almost no Hides supply, no possibilities for long ship chains. I am building long roads instead, but it is slow. It is the Grand Canyon, after all, so the roads need many bridges and/or deep cuts thru mts. Can anyone solve this econ puzzle ?

If you want to compare games in detail, I can post a log and / or stats. In addition to the usual growth stats, it might be interesting to compare the dates we get to the other CIVs.

I am REALLY enjoying this GOTM. I think I'll conquer before 2020 AD, but have some real doubts for the first time in years. I feel a bit sorry for any newbies that might wander into this one though ! :cry:

This is my first attempt at a GOTM (I just found CFC about a month ago). Also my first post to a spoiler). I hope I am not saying too much. I have learned a lot from the site (I have been playing for over 10 years, usually on Diety and almost always win by building the complete spaceship). Early Conquest and Early Landing, OCC and the power of trade were unknown to be before I found CFC.

So, although I have learned a lot in a month, I don't think I am going to be able to win this one. This map is just HUGE. I probably should have done a number of things differently (Peaster makes some good points about keeping pet cities for trade (which I have never tried) and constantly pressing westward). Like Peaster, Monarchy was established in 1050 AD (it was discovered in 1150 the same year as I contacted the Mongols). I destroyed the Mongols in 460 AD, the Spanish in 1440 and the Persians in 1790.

Trade has been pretty bad for me as well. Of course, I am still in Monarchy (afraid to switch due to support cost issues). I think my largest delivery was an undemanded Gems delivery to Madrid that got 140 gold. I conquered Madrid immediately after making the delivery.

It is currently 1824. My lead explorer is at 208,12. With only about 170 turns to go, my success is in doubt. I will keep pushing until the end. I just discovered Railroad, but I think it may have come too late (no explosives yet).

By the way, Peaster noted that the Persian seemed to have their tech set to zero. I noticed this as well. I also noticed that they did not have a capital (check intelligence after establishing an embassy). I think the lack of a capital caused this problem. I can't talk about the Vikings yet (I haven't met them), but they were able to build the Great Library and Magellan's in my game, so they got some research from somewhere.

This is my first attempt at a GOTM (I just found CFC about a month ago). Also my first post to a spoiler). I hope I am not saying too much. I have learned a lot from the site (I have been playing for over 10 years, usually on Diety and almost always win by building the complete spaceship). Early Conquest and Early Landing, OCC and the power of trade were unknown to be before I found CFC.

As far as I know, you can say anything about your game in the spoiler thread. It is the other guy's responsibility not to read it too early.


So, although I have learned a lot in a month, I don't think I am going to be able to win this one. This map is just HUGE.

:lol: Yeah - I tried to warn people about that in the main thread, but couldn't say very much there. This is a pretty tough GOTM to start with. Well, even if we don't win, I think this map is fun.


Trade has been pretty bad for me as well. Of course, I am still in Monarchy (afraid to switch due to support cost issues). I think my largest delivery was an undemanded Gems delivery to Madrid that got 140 gold.

There are different opinions on Trade. Personally, if I expect less than 100g from a van, I usually don't even bother making it, and in some games I skip trade completely. In this game, I have invested pretty heavily in trade, and now have over 100 vans, mostly marching from Eastern Japan to Persia [or maybe Spain for faster payoffs]. Bonuses have varied from about 150g to 650g, until Invention.


It is currently 1824. My lead explorer is at 208,12. With only about 170 turns to go, my success is in doubt. I will keep pushing until the end. I just discovered Railroad, but I think it may have come too late (no explosives yet).


That doesn't sound so bad. I think you can do it if you have other troops nearby and keep pushing.


By the way, Peaster noted that the Persian seemed to have their tech set to zero. I noticed this as well. I also noticed that they did not have a capital (check intelligence after establishing an embassy). I think the lack of a capital caused this problem. I can't talk about the Vikings yet (I haven't met them), but they were able to build the Great Library and Magellan's in my game, so they got some research from somewhere.

Yeah, and I don't think the Persian Empress even had a name. Maybe Magic did all this on purpose to add some variety to the game ? In my game, the Vikings woke up around 1000AD. They built a capital, approx 25 cities, the Lighthouse and Great Wall, and started getting an advance every turn or so. I am just now entering their lands, hoping for either massive bribery or for Metallurgy soon, to cancel their Wall.

BTW - I have a good real-life Great Wall story, but maybe this isn't the place.:confused:

You can tell everything in a spoiler thread about the game. However it is not allowed to mention the score.

@Peaster: you can perhaps tell you're Great Wall story in the stories and tales section??

When loading the scenario the Persians started with no name. Don't know why but it wasn't important to me to change it.

Why some civ's have or had no capitol is not known to me. Perhaps I did something wrong when developing the map. But as I read the fun is not less....

I don't really want to recap my whole game here, but I have a couple other quick items and revisions.

In my original post I said I hadn't changed from Monarchy due to support cost issues. The reality is, I haven't changed from Monarchy because I never researched Republic. I guess I never really intended to switch, so why research something I wouldn't use.

The turn (1826 AD) after my original post (1824 AD), I finally contacted the Vikings (at 200,12). They asked to trade Republic for Railroad, I declined. They demanded Railroad, I declined (the Great Wall kept them from declaring war, I built it so the AI wouldn't). I made peace, gave them Railroad (maybe they will build some to make my conquering them easier), Physics and Trade. They shared Maps. Not too pleased but I guess it could be worse. I think they have about 20 cities and I can see a couple of Roman cities.

It is now 1850. My railroads across the Japanese continent and the Spanish/Persian continent are almost complete and my army of about 30 Veteran Crusaders are getting close to the Viking city on the mostly empty Continent 4.

1762 AD Not done yet, not even halfway thru the Vikings yet, but I see a big light at the end of the tunnel. With Exposives and RR, I have built RRs across most of the Eastern half of the Canyon. Somehow, trade improved after a switch from Republic to Fundy, and with RRs, the Jap economy is now booming. Approx 1 adv per turn, even with science set at zero.

For some reason, I'd hoped to avoid Modern combat. But as long as the AI is stuck in the Dark Ages, it is great. Spies can zip along a river at warp speed and Engineers can help Cavalry zip up to the front too. Alpine Troops should be ideal on this map, too, but haven't made any yet.

One unique problem on this map is crossing the little sea just East of the Viking lands, and just West of the broad wasteland "4". One obvious solution is to send settlers slowly across "4" to build ports, to build boats. But in my game, the Viking map revealed Viking boats on that sea, so I sent diplomats there to bribe them from the Eastern coast. One idea was to get NONE boats, and another was that dips can travel twice as fast as settlers.

This solution worked pretty well. However, the Vikings had crossed the sea before I arrived, and built Jelling on my side [but not on the coast]. After 2 turns fishing for Viking boats, without success, I bribed Jelling, to make a settler/engineer to build a port. Arrgh - The very next turn, my dips were able to bribe a boat, which led to a second bribed boat [not NONES, but I guess that's OK]. I am curious how others got across ... I guess that if you have them, it is simpler to send engineers, which are just as fast as dips. I don't see how a swarm of crusaders could do it though, unless they were lucky enough to capture a port on the East coast.

Also, I am curious how people choose their govts in this game. Monarchy is a standard choice for EC players and should be OK here. I chose Republic for the science + econ advantages, and the city growth rate, but sacrificed lot fo shields, and probably stuck with it a bit too long. I was overruled by my Senate a few times too many, and was spending too much RL time micromanaging my cities. Now, Fundy seems much simpler and better. Communism and Demo also seem reasonable for this game ... not at all sure what's best here.

I'm seeing this GOTM as slightly similar to #58 [The Gauntlet]. But 58 had much more water, which allowed faster movement and earlier overseas trade. Also, the 250x40 map in 58 made it easier to bypass AIs, if desired. So, #108 is clearly tougher to finish quickly. The only advantage I can see in #108 is in super-long RRs for super-trade. But that comes pretty late in the game, at least for me.

In my game (still going on, only the Romans are left), I also tried to bribe some Viking ships. I was able to bribe 1 caravel (which upgraded to a galleon a few turns later (thanks Leo)), but I couldn't find anymore (at least not empty). The one caravel I bribed cost 270 to bribe. My treasury was about 1100 at the time, so I probably wouldn't have been able to bribe very many.

Most of my railroad across "4" was built in 12 turns with my team of 30+ engineers. I would have never been able to build it that fast without the knowledge I picked up from CFC. I suppose I knew that engineers could 'pre-charge' but I had never specifically tried to do it. Also, the whole working as a team thing was unknown to me. I built 4 towns as 'bridges' across the Mountain/River (since it takes 4 engineer turns to build the road and then 7 or 8 engineer turns to build the railroad, I thought it was better to 'sacrifice' one engineer to save a lot of time) I also had some time to irrigate around these towns while I was going through the few mountains that I decided I had to go over.

After I reached the west coast, I built 2 ports. I waited 2 turns building ships and finishing the research of metallurgy before demanding tribute from both the Vikings and Romans. They both declared war on me. I then attacked the Vikings and took over 4 cities on the first turn (including their port on the East Coast of "1"). Each city gave me the last 4 advances that the Vikings had done (Industrialization (all galleons upgrade to transport), Democracy, Economics and Banking). With the increased carrying capacity of the transports, I was able to bring a few vans to "1' and deliver them on the next turn along with a number of fighting troops. I was very surprised when my first delivery (Copper (demanded)) earned a payment of 555. 5 years later I was able to make my first delivery to the Roman town of Sigtuna. I delivered Silk (demanded) and was paid 1400. Trade was finally back in a big way. After getting the gold from the vans, I stopped attacking the Vikings and was able to bribe the rest.

The Romans are currently in democracy, so I guess I will have to actually fight the cities. They have 15 cities (12 of them are building Women's Suffrage, seems a bit excessive). I have 28 Veteran Cannons and 28 Veteran Crusaders, so I hope it will be enough. I will probably only be able to attack a few cities at a time (based on the terrain), so it should be enough. Artillery is probably a few turns away. I will have to think hard about whether to research it (since all my veteran cannons will become non-veteran artillery).

Before I started playing I had visions of the AI building cities on mountain river squares. Luckily they don't, that would have made it near impossible. I built kyoto on 494,8 the mountain river square. I thought it had been a mistake for ages, until I found the gold mountain nearby.
My first plan was to build settlers and explore. I came across the mongols quite quickly, but took time to get a big enough force & elephants to take them on. Defeated them about 1ad. Defeated the spanish in 740.
It's 780 now and I changed to republic after defeating the spanish.This is going to take ages, but is good fun.

1792 Have started on the Romans, who have several big walled cities, but they are still 1-2 techs away from Demo, and probably won't get there. I have about 100 invaders, mostly Cavalry, but with a mix of spies, alpines, engineers and armor, probably an unstoppable tidal wave. No more worries [none for the past 20-30 turns really].

So, after playing for 50 hours or so, I am still wondering - what is the best way to approach this GOTM ? I have noticed that my Spies have taken far more AI cities for Japan than my 70 Cavalry, mainly because they move faster [Alpines and Armor move almost as fast, but have entered the game more recently]. IMO the central question of this GOTM for EC players, especially in the second half, is:

How fast can you advance your front line ?

I have gone from <125,y> to <52,y> in the last 13 turns; an average x-distance of about 5 [or 2.5 horizontal tiles]. This is probably slower than GOTMs with ships, but faster than crusaders can move along twisty rivers. I think a large team of Engineers [making RRs across grass] might be able to advance faster, but I didn't really test this idea in my game, and am not sure how obstacles, like mts and AIs, would affect their speed. So, maybe this GOTM calls for a completely different EC paradigm.

Normal EC Paradigm: Grow to at least 10 cities. Then send out flotillas ASAP, filled with Elephants, or whatever else you've got. Don't worry about techs past Polytheism.

GOTM 108 Paradigm ? Research Explosives, Espionage and RR ASAP, to create the fastest possible invading force. This may require some early expansion [for trade or tribute] and ICS growth [for trade and massive production of units later on].

I used the normal one, and am not sure the other one is better, but if I were to play again, I'd definitely try it out. Ironicly, it is pretty similar to the newbie paradigm - build an advanced Civ before engaging in war with the big bad AIs! I hope to hear other players' opinions / experiences on this.

I think I am now 2 turns from finishing the game. There are 7 Roman cities left, but I should be in position to kill them all in 2 turns.

I currently have 95 engineers active. Do most players "build" those engineers into their cities to increase the final score? Or is that discouraged?

I think I am now 2 turns from finishing the game. There are 7 Roman cities left, but I should be in position to kill them all in 2 turns.

I currently have 95 engineers active. Do most players "build" those engineers into their cities to increase the final score? Or is that discouraged?

Nice !! You're obviously a fast learner !! :goodjob:

It is OK to increase your final score that way. You can also increase luxuries to the max, to get happier citizens, which helps your score. You can build Wonders, even obsolete ones, for 20 points each. You can probably increase your score even more by celebrating in Democracy [or Republic] to get bigger cities.

I will do all those things if I'm trying for the Gold medal, but skip them if trying for Green (speed) or if just playing for the fun of it. I just finished this one - by far the longest GOTM I've played - and am very tired, but satisfied. I played about 4 quick turns in Demo at the end for a few more points. "Quick" means my units were asleep, or disbanded, and I ignored all the city build messages.

Prior to playing this map, I don't think I had ever built a city on a mountain. In this game I built a total of 25 cities. 10 of my cities were built on Mountain/Rivers to several as road/railroad bridges. Another 3 cities were built on mountain squares to serve as ports.

I was just wondering if the other players built a lot of these types of cities?

I built about 100 cities, including 5 on mts for ports and 5 on mt-rivers for bridges. Your idea of building lots of them on mt-rivers to speed up road/RR construction intrigued me, but I didn't really analyze it, or use it, during my game, mainly because I read it in this spoiler.

Another issue in my game was that my front lines [eg spies and cavalry, etc] were always a little ahead of my roadbuilders. They never had to slow down much, especially in the latter half, since I had tons of gold for bribery. So, my roads were not really very important to the conquest. I kept building them, mainly to bring forward backup units and caravans, but without great zeal.

I am curious whether it is possible and practical to build roads ahead of the other units on this map [see my previous posts] ? I think I had about 65 engineers near the end, spread out over all the continents, mostly finishing up RRs or adding irrigation [for Demo-growth]. But I notice you had about 100, and you probably built roads more aggressively. Was that more successful ? Did your roads help you conquer faster ?

Nearly at 1800's and still not reached Vikings, though quite near. However, I switched to democray and sent vans from ex-persia & ex-spain to capital, getting about 400 had one for 896. Getting about a tech a turn now. 55 vans active at the moment and just discovered flight, so I should be able to use spies and bombers to take vikings and romans. This is a long hard slog, good fun though.

Chin up, CharlieChuck ! I had a similar moment in my game, and that's when it started getting easy [though you still have a lotta map left].

One thing I have notived is, I've not been spending money most cities are size 5 or 6 so there's ntohign to spend it on. The result is I've got 23,000 gold, should come in helpful for the final push.

I'm finally reached the island with Vikings and Russians. I started well and got Monarchy at 1650 BC but when moving west I waited to long trading. So my science didn't go fast enough. After finally getting railroad I reached the Vikings. They are democracy and having riflemen now... so no bribing cities and tough fighting. I only have time to play a few turns a day while there is no much free time to play. It's around 1850 AD and I hope I can move quickly to the russians. When I have more time I post a log....

@CC and MG: Democracy is a drag! But you will do fine, if you are ahead in Modern Age weaponry, like armor and bombers.

Prior to playing this map, I don't think I had ever built a city on a mountain. In this game I built a total of 25 cities. 10 of my cities were built on Mountain/Rivers to several as road/railroad bridges. Another 3 cities were built on mountain squares to serve as ports.

I was just wondering if the other players built a lot of these types of cities?

Sometimes I will build on a mountain if there are good resources nearby. It helps maintain a steady however slow growth during early game. It makes a good defensive city. In late game after engineers, you can tranform it to a hill or plains for better growth.

I love this map!

However, it seemed clear after MPE that this was going to be a Really Long game so my first goal was to minimize the number of RL hours so that I could have a chance at finishing. So Fundy was clearly in the cards, and I also thought of explosives and Leonardo for the same reason.

So my score is not going to be competitive, but I am having lots of fun.

While I was trying to get through the tech tree, I was lazy finishing off the Mongols. Explosives came halfway through the Persians. I have just reached the sea across from the Vikings in around 1850. But RL time is definitely less than 20 hours so far. I won't be able to get back to the game until after Easter, but I have a lot of money and a ton of dips waiting to bribe my way through the Vikings (whose maps I do not have, nor will I get). I am beelining espionage already.

Well that was a marathon!

Took me till 1908 to get across the board, and I wasn't holding back with the lead units.

I stayed up all night last night and played till -325. My rule for the spoiler is having seen the rival's maps. I built Marco in -325 and exchanged maps with all but the Mongols two of whose cities I have already seen.

I started reading a few responses in this thread and had to stop; I have a plane to catch.
I will comment in more detail later. I will be gone for one week. I hope we get some serious extension (2-3 weeks) on this one. In fact, may I suggest we make it a 2-month GOTM and delay the next one (GOTM 109) to the next month. (If you are looking for an excuse to do this, how about the fact that it is the beginning of the 10th year of GOTMs.)

I built my first city on the original spot and kept the other settler for improvements. I have about 8 cities now and have been in Monarchy (thanks to direct techs) since -1650.

In my game Persians and Vikings have almost no techs either. I wonder how that happened.

Because of the huge map it's ok with me if you (and others) submit a bit later (max 2 weeks). I won't delay GOTM 109 if you don't mind.

What a Map!

Celebrating Fundy with lots of trade really powers through the tree. I waited until I had a transport full at the various landings, then moved them to get enoug trade for the next advance. I stopped about three times to rushbuy all white techs. So I wasn't very efficient but I finished in about 30 realtime hours, so I am thrilled with that.

I conquered the Romans before the end of the 19th century.

Looking forward to an EC contest with Peaster in GOTM 109...:cool:

I think I have discovered why the Persians and Vikings had very few techs. When I was playing the game, I also noticed the the Persians, along with having no techs had no capital. I wondered how this could be.

So after I completed the game, I went back to the original save file. Using the cheat mode, I looked at the Persian Map. The Persian capital (Persepolis) was located on a river-mountain square. A number of other cities (for all of the AIs) were likewise placed on river-mountains.

It seems that the initial location of the AI cities were created using the Cheat Mode. After all the cities were placed, the terrain was hidden using another feature of the cheat mode. The game was then saved as a scenario. Finally the scenario was started to save the inital save for the GOTM.

Now the cities on the river-mountain squares had no visibility to any of the surrounding squares (due to the hide terrain feature). Therefore the city's worker had no square to work. Since the city itself could only produce 1 food and the food box was empty, these cities starved themselves out of existence in 2 turns. The Persians and Vikings therefore lost their palace and both seemed to be stuck with 40 tax, 50 science, 10 luxury tax rate. With the massive corruption caused by the lack of a palace, they were never able to accumulate any beakers. Without Construction, they couldn't build a new Palace. So they spent the entire game being only able to build settlers, warriors, phalanx, barracks. In my game the Persians were also able to build the Colossus (since they started with the Bronze Working). Looking at other save files, it appears that the Vikings finally allied with the Romans somewhere around 1760 AD. They finally changed their tax rate to 30 (tax) 60 (science) and 10 (luxury). From that point on they were able to either make discoveries or get them from the Romans (or me once I contacted them).

I've played some hours yesterday and finally destroyed the Vikings. After getting cavalry I could easily destroy their riflemen. I am now heading to the russians. They are not having a demo government so I hope I can stay in demo myself and bribe their cities.

Have some time this evening to play so mayby I can finally finish.

Celebrating Fundy with lots of trade really powers through the tree.

I conquered the Romans before the end of the 19th century.

Looking forward to an EC contest with Peaster in GOTM 109...:cool:

I was also happy with Fundy, and wish I had switched over sooner [from Republic]. I've never studied the different govts deeply, but expected Republic to work better here, for growth + trade.

Assuming "before the end of..." means "before 1900AD" that's pretty good. It sounds like several of us, with very different strategies, finished within 100 years of each other. With a few more players still playing. I hope people will offer opinions on the best govt[s] for this gotm, and for the fastest way to push troops westwards. I recently noticed that haleewud gave some stats on his engineers' speed, but I haven't analyzed that yet.

What did you mean by "rushbuy white techs" ?

I'm not 100% sure yet that I'll play 109 [ltd RL time], but an EC contest sounds like fun. Would you like to impose any special constraints [on units or strategies used, etc] ?

@haleewud: Thanks for the Pers/Vik explanation. Makes sense. Sounds like it was mostly accidental, and it may have weakened the competition a little. But I liked the variety, and neither civ was a total pushover.

My Vikings actually did quite well. They played ICS until they had about 15-20 cities, and then suddenly started getting a tech every turn or so, built the Great Wall, etc. My Persians were pretty weak, but they had many annoying settlers wandering around on important mt/river squares, which slowed me down quite a bit, probably as much as the normal civs.

@MG: What is your date? Well, I guess you will post a log when you are done.

White techs - excuse me, I meant White Goods - the ones which show up in white on the City Advisor screen.

Strictures for GOTM 109...Hmm...I was just thinking who conquers first by whatever means. King level means happiness isn't an issue until around 12 cities, right? I can't find the thread which charted the happiness for lower levels than Deity.

I am trying the dollars over science strategy in some King practice games. So far I don't see much difference in settler speed, just later Monarchy. Let me try a few more before deciding.

I'm just past 1870 and almost reached the Russians. When finished I will post a complete log.

After reaching the Vikings (IIRC) I changed to communism. Did help greatly for a bigger army. Don't know how much better fundy is because I don't change to that government a lot.....

@Peaster.....I thought you wanted to play GOTM 109 as a comparison landing game but with lack of realtime (I guess both of us) we should wait till one of the next GOTM's.

Also, I am curious how people choose their govts in this game. Monarchy is a standard choice for EC players and should be OK here. I chose Republic for the science + econ advantages, and the city growth rate, but sacrificed lot fo shields, and probably stuck with it a bit too long. I was overruled by my Senate a few times too many, and was spending too much RL time micromanaging my cities. Now, Fundy seems much simpler and better. Communism and Demo also seem reasonable for this game ... not at all sure what's best here.
Peaster, this is not a standard game and standard techniques are probably suboptimal.
My first goal was Monarchy and I switched to it as soon as I could but I do not plan to stay in Monarchy very long. Like GOTM 106 this is going to be a long game and ancient warfare is not going to be sufficient. In my game Romans are pretty advanced and currently ahead of me in power ratings (I am at year -325).

Given the geograhpy of my capital at the extreme corner of the world, I am not planning on switching to Republic at all. Depending on how the game evolves I may have a period of growth in Democracy but plan on spending most of the latter part of the game in celebrating communism or celebrating fundamentalism.

Prior to playing this map, I don't think I had ever built a city on a mountain. In this game I built a total of 25 cities. 10 of my cities were built on Mountain/Rivers to several as road/railroad bridges. Another 3 cities were built on mountain squares to serve as ports.
I was just wondering if the other players built a lot of these types of cities?

haleewud, typically I never build on a mountain. In this game I already have (I only have 8 cities so far) and plan many more. Looks like AI is not smart enough to do that in this game. Such cities will be mighty difficult to conquer.

What a Map!
I stopped about three times to rushbuy all white techs. So I wasn't very efficient but I finished in about 30 realtime hours, so I am thrilled with that.

Grigor, I saw your response while composing this message. I still do not know what white goods are. Perhaps it is a feature of the multiplayer version of the game that is absent in classic.

You finished this game in 30 real time hours! Wow! That is beyond amazing.


@haleewud: Thanks for the Pers/Vik explanation. Makes sense. Sounds like it was mostly accidental, and it may have weakened the competition a little. But I liked the variety, and neither civ was a total pushover.

Ditto. Good job, haleewud and thanks.

White techs - excuse me, I meant White Goods - the ones which show up in white on the City Advisor screen.

Strictures for GOTM 109...Hmm...I was just thinking who conquers first by whatever means. King level means happiness isn't an issue until around 12 cities, right? I can't find the thread which charted the happiness for lower levels than Deity.

I am trying the dollars over science strategy in some King practice games. So far I don't see much difference in settler speed, just later Monarchy. Let me try a few more before deciding.

IIRC from Apolyton, "white goods" refers to city improvements [no?], but like Ali, I'm a bit confused, and don't see where they show up as white.

If you play for dollars over science, be sure to spend the dollars ASAP [roughly] to IRB settler production. Wild estimate = you can produce each settler approx 2 turns faster this way. By the time you get near monarchy, you may have 1-2 "extra" cities, can make maybe 20% more beakers than usual [by switching back to science over dollars], and can catch up in science quickly. I admit I haven't analyzed this very carefully - but the idea seems good, and my impression from comparison games is that it works pretty well.

GOTM 107 was unusual for me, and it didn't go exactly this way. You led in science, and we had about the same number of cities in the 2000BC era. But in that game, I was trying to play "lean", and kept approx 5 extra settlers around for roads/flotillas. Not sure I played so great, and I didn't get quite the predicted science boost, but I got other benefits [eg outposts], and eventually did OK in science.

109: OK, we'll just go for Green, then. 12 cities sounds about right, but even I get out of Despotism long before that !

@Magic, about a landing game: I'm not sure how much I/we could learn from another landing comparison game. During the recent trade thread "argument", it seemed a lot could be learned [hence the suggestion], but after reviewing some old GOTMs, it seems less. Dunno ... maybe if a group of players is very very interested in this, enough to cooperate in taking notes and discussing strategy, it could be worthwhile.

@Everyone: Are you up for a fairly serious comparison game, in some upcoming GOTM, focusing especially on growth and trade strategies for landing ? With robust discussion ? If people agree, I'd prefer to narrow the goal, for example to earliest landing, for the sake of a clearer comparison.

@Ali [and Magic]: Thanks for the comments on govts; I partially understand. Could you explain your thinking in more detail ? For example, I can see how a Demo growth phase fits in nicely, but it will come fairly late - so why avoid Republic ? [corruption in the West? ... is that so important?]. Also, what features of this GOTM cause you to favor Fundy/Com over Demo in the long term [Bloodlust and unit support? Senate interference? the special units?]. Also, do you plan lots of trade, and does that affect your choice of govt ?

@Everyone: Are you up for a fairly serious comparison game, in some upcoming GOTM, focusing especially on growth and trade strategies for landing ? With robust discussion ? If people agree, I'd prefer to narrow the goal, for example to earliest landing, for the sake of a clearer comparison.


I am definitely interested. My usual style of play is landing and I always take detailed notes anyway. We just need to make sure this happens at a time when everyone has enough real time available for it. One suggestion I have is to play on a small to medium map (to reduced the amount of real time needed).


@Ali [and Magic]: Thanks for the comments on govts; I partially understand. Could you explain your thinking in more detail ? For example, I can see how a Demo growth phase fits in nicely, but it will come fairly late - so why avoid Republic ? [corruption in the West? ... is that so important?]. Also, what features of this GOTM cause you to favor Fundy/Com over Demo in the long term [Bloodlust and unit support? Senate interference? the special units?]. Also, do you plan lots of trade, and does that affect your choice of govt ?
I am going to be avoiding Republic manily because of Corruption. Monarchy to Republic is always a fairly close trade off. What you gain in extra arrows are offset by unit support and extra food for settlers. Rapid growth through celebrations are pretty difficult in Republic due to corruption also. With geography like that of this game the trade off is just not worth it and I rather wait till I can switch to a modern form of government.
My choice of Fundy/Com over Demo is because of the bloodlust nature of this game: fighting a war for conquest (not for expansion or trade outposts) is too difficult in Democracy for all the common reasons: senate interference and unhappiness caused by troops being away. (Unit support in late game is not a big deal as most everything is rush bought anyway.) I definitely plan lots of trade and that is why I want a celebrating Fundly/Com.
The special unit of fanatic in Fundy and vet Spies in Commy are nice too but not deterimental factors for me.

I am curious. Has anyone else done a map analysis on this game? I did not publish my results as I usually do in the game thread partly because I started so late and partly because there is almost no conclusion gained from the initial info.

In my opinion, in this game where there are only 3 terrrain types (Mountain, ocean, and grass) revealing all those specials hidden by the abundant grass is not something to ignore.

I am curious. Has anyone else done a map analysis on this game? I did not publish my results as I usually do in the game thread partly because I started so late and partly because there is almost no conclusion gained from the initial info.

In my opinion, in this game where there are only 3 terrrain types (Mountain, ocean, and grass) revealing all those specials hidden by the abundant grass is not something to ignore.

No nobody did a map analysis IIRC....

@Peaster: I changed to republic at some point (because of hapinness control) and at the time I wanted to change to democracy I met the Vikings who had a demo government. I chose communism (for vet spies) instead because the senate wouldn't stop me attacking them. I did not trade very well so my discoveries came slow. I should have changed earlier to a better government because it slowed me down pretty much.

I am definitely interested. My usual style of play is landing and I always take detailed notes anyway. We just need to make sure this happens at a time when everyone has enough real time available for it. One suggestion I have is to play on a small to medium map (to reduced the amount of real time needed).


I'm mainly interested in how well various trade strategies work in early landing games [see the slightly ugly trade thread in the general forum]. Also, there seems to be an unfinished "debate" between the lean solo/ELG style and the slowthinker/ICS styles, which we could explore. I think the map should be medium to large for a fair comparison, and preferably normal in other ways [terrain, available sea routes]. I'm not sure why a large map would lead to a much longer landing game, but medium is OK with me.

I'd want to learn more from this than a typical gotm. Eg, we might describe our overall strategies / beliefs in advance, decide on new stats to keep track of, etc. For example, I generally refuse to build a trade van that will return less than 65g, and want an average return over 200g, but several players disagree on this. It is hard to tell who is right from traditional logs, but I think we could track the effects of our various strategies with a little extra effort. I am still undecided about playing, but your post, and Magic's, have peaked my interest.


I am going to be avoiding Republic manily because of Corruption. Monarchy to Republic is always a fairly close trade off. What you gain in extra arrows are offset by unit support and extra food for settlers. Rapid growth through celebrations are pretty difficult in Republic due to corruption also. With geography like that of this game the trade off is just not worth it and I rather wait till I can switch to a modern form of government.


Thanks, I see. I chose Republic for the growth through celebrations, and the extra arrows for better trade bonuses. This worked pretty well for my Eastern cities, including an STC, where corruption was not so bad. I didn't care too much about corruption in the West, since those cities were smaller, and less involved in trade - more into pushing further West. I don't regret going to Republic, but the benefits seemed to decrease eventually, and I wasn't sure how to get out. I was racing for techs such as Explosives, RR and Corporation, so I got to Democracy fairly late, and chose soft Fundy at that time.


My choice of Fundy/Com over Demo is because of the bloodlust nature of this game: fighting a war for conquest (not for expansion or trade outposts) is too difficult in Democracy for all the common reasons: senate interference and unhappiness caused by troops being away. (Unit support in late game is not a big deal as most everything is rush bought anyway.) I definitely plan lots of trade and that is why I want a celebrating Fundly/Com.
The special unit of fanatic in Fundy and vet Spies in Commy are nice too but not deterimental factors for me.

Thanks again. That agrees with my somewhat limited experience. But I am surprised - I thought most CFC players totally believed in Starlifter's "Power Democracy" and that this game would be no exception. Maybe that is mainly for landing games, dunno.

I didn't do a map analysis, and didn't even think of hidden specials. I believe that on most maps, in most conquest games, they are a waste of time. But you are right - they are a real possibility here, especially near an STC.

@Magic: I am a little confused [...always]. I see why you wanted out of Republic and Demo but why did you choose Comm ? I'm not very familiar with Comm, but have heard it is roughly Monarchy 2.0 ... eg, not bad, not great. How did you use vet spies against a Demo govt ? BTW - That was pretty unlucky that your Vikings had Demo. Also

"I should have changed earlier to a better government because it slowed me down pretty much."

You mean Republic slowed you down ? and it slowed your trade / science especially ? Hmmm... I always thought Republic was relatively good for trade, but maybe this long long map is an inhibiting factor.

I don't remember much games where I played fundy...so I chose communism because I know more about it (don't really know what the big difference (IIRC science is 50% at fundy and stays 100% at communism) is between fundy and communism.....perhaps someone would explain them to me).

The veteran spies I used to sabotage some units of the Viking to prefent attacking/destroying my cavalry.

I had the feeling because of the huge corruption (I was suprised how high it was in the west part - there were hardly any beakers for science left) the science went very slow. I had no other options at that time but should have delivered more vans earlier to own cities instead of foreign cities (which I couldn't reach at that time). If I could have changed to demo, communism and perhaps fundy (don't know if there is no curruption for fundy) there was no curruption and faster science.

Really don't know if fundy would help much more....but after changing to communism science went up pretty good in combination with van delivery.....which made it a lot easier to defeat the Vikings.

I don't remember much games where I played fundy...so I chose communism because I know more about it (don't really know what the big difference (IIRC science is 50% at fundy and stays 100% at communism) is between fundy and communism.....perhaps someone would explain them to me).

I can probably explain Fundy, at least. There is no unhappiness or corruption, and rarely any support problems. Temples, HG, etc add gold instead of happiness, so your economy will probably skyrocket, even without much trade. The bad news is an [approx?] 50% science penalty on cities (but not on science from vans). It is the usually the best choice for conquest players in a long game like this one. But if you need science, you will need to trade a lot.

If you want more info, I think Nethog has posted a chart of all the govts, and their main features. But no strategy tips there IIRC.


I had the feeling because of the huge corruption (I was suprised how high it was in the west part - there were hardly any beakers for science left) the science went very slow.

I'm getting the feeling that most players have a very different view on science from mine. IMO science comes mainly from 3 sources:

a) Initial bonuses from vans, including ones from an STC.
b) Beakers from normal cities [including from ongoing trade routes]
c) Normal beakers from an STC.

At least in my games, I have more control over a) and c) than b), so I tend to ignore b), even though it might give 20% or more of my beakers. I don't worry much about corruption unless it is clearly affecting a) or c). After approx 1ad, I usually get approx 2/3 of my beakers from a), so I tend to equate science with trade at that point. So, I am mainly planning around good bonuses [eg 200g or more, on average]. In this game, that meant a dozen or more decent cities in the West [size 7 or so, without huge corruption] delivering demanded vans overseas to AIs [mostly]. Also, speed matters, so it meant roads, bridges, ports, pets, etc.

It seems that several of us got similar results in this gotm [similar speeds thru the tech tree], so I'm not saying I have the best possible strategy, but it seems OK. Are there any other, very different views ?


I had no other options at that time but should have delivered more vans earlier to own cities instead of foreign cities (which I couldn't reach at that time).

Really don't know if fundy would help much more....but after changing to communism science went up pretty good in combination with van delivery.....which made it a lot easier to defeat the Vikings.

Why couldn't you reach foreign cities ? Is this before you crossed the first sea ?

I don't know Comm well, but I suspect you'd have enjoyed Fundy more.

It sounds like several of us had a similar problem, of not getting enough science quickly, to get to the advanced govts [comm, fundy, demo]. I am still wondering what went wrong with Republic, but in my game, I think it was mainly the cost in shields to support so many military units and settlers, which made it harder to rush buy vans quickly. Or maybe it just took a long time to build up a swarm of vans and deliver them. Maybe corruption too ? [will have to check some saves].

Another odd feature of this map is how thin it was, and how little good land was available. This probably affected me more than most [non-ICS] players ... my civ seemed much less powerful than usual. It probably also hurt players who like very very big cities.

Yes I couldn't reach AI cities until reaching the Spanish. If I replay this game I know now that I must trade earlier to get extra science beakers. I was hoping to get more beakers from my own cities in Republic and hoped getting Democracy soon to build the Manhatttan wonder for the best governments.

I should try fundy more if I need more money instead of science (from cities). I guess it wouldn't make a big difference at the point I chose communism but if I had it earlier I could RB some things easier.

I'm almost finished. Rome survived first attacking round and has only 1 defender left. So the next round will finaly be the last one....

Edit: I just finished at 1885AD......When my log is complete I will post it.

I should try fundy more if I need more money instead of science (from cities). I guess it wouldn't make a big difference at the point I chose communism but if I had it earlier I could RB some things easier.


It might be worthwhile to replay 1-2 turns of your game in Fundy, just to see the differences. It is an unusual govt, easy to manage, probably worth knowing about, at least a little bit. If anyone is especially interested in this govt, they could hunt down Starlifter's "Power Fundy" thread.


I'm almost finished. Moscow survived first attacking round and has only 1 defender left. So the next round will finaly be the last one....

Edit: I just finished at 1885AD......When my log is complete I will post it.

"Moscow" ? I assume this is not a typo, since you refered to Russians earlier. But my white civ was the Romans.

It sounds like most of us finished within about 50 years of 1885 AD. Surprisingly uniform. Not sure anyone has posted a log yet ... anybody interested in careful comparisons ? If so, IMO we should include the [approx] dates we reached each sea and each new land mass. Maybe stats on #war units, #vans, #techs ... ?

Finished. It was a real hard slog. Conquest in 1874ad in hindsight I made a fair few mistakes could have knocked a few years off that. I finished with 21,000 gold with nothing to really spend it on. What I should have done was switch back to Demo and subverted the Romans at the end to allow a bit more city growth, but didn't think of that until too late.

My governments were Monarchy, Republic (but that didn't yield much growth), back to monarchy again for the Mongols (I think it was the mongols, the first or second civ nearest to us) then Republic, Democracy and finished off with Communism.

Finsihed off the final two civs with Bombers and paratroopers. Had loads of units that were unused but needed moving every turn, this slowed it down too.

"Moscow" ? I assume this is not a typo, since you refered to Russians earlier. But my white civ was the Romans.

It sounds like most of us finished within about 50 years of 1885 AD. Surprisingly uniform. Not sure anyone has posted a log yet ... anybody interested in careful comparisons ? If so, IMO we should include the [approx] dates we reached each sea and each new land mass. Maybe stats on #war units, #vans, #techs ... ?

My mistake. For some reason I had the Russians in my head instead of the Romans. I've changed the post with Rome instead of Moscow.

I can make that log. I guess it's interesting to see how everybody moved along the map and where the biggest differences are when looking at moving west.

When I have enough time I will add this info to my log..might take a few days because this weekend I have not much time.

...so I chose communism because I know more about it (don't really know what the big difference .....perhaps someone would explain them to me).
City trade arrows: both are like Monarchy: you get 1 on roads, 2 on ocean.

Unit Support: Communism is just like Monarchy (only first 3 are free); in fundy the manual says the first ten are free but in reality there is no unit support.

Corruption: None in fundy; very low in Commie. Furthermore, in Commy corruption is not a function of distance from capital as it is in Monarchy and Republic. This makes a big difference when your capital is stuck at a corner of the world.

Happiness: No unhappiness in Fundy. Every military unit positioned in a city makes 2 unhappy citizens content in Commie (up to 6 citizens).

Special units: Fanatic in Fundy; all spies are automatically vets in Commie. Fanatic is a wonderful defensive unit and at 20 shields it is cheap. Furthermore, the existance of it cheapens rushbuying of other units. Vet spies are pretty significant too as spies play an important role in modern warfare.

Celebrations: Both act like Monarchy: you get an extra arrow everywhere there is already one. In effect the city trade arrows become that of Democracy.

Senate: No senate interference in either case.

Reputation: The manual says fundy's reputation is less damaged by outrageous acts. I do not know if anyone has ever tested this.

Money: In Fundy all happiness infrastructure (temples, cathedrals, Colloseums?) contribute gold per turn (the amount is the same as the number of citizens they would have otherwise turned happy). Happiness wonders do not do this but keep in mind that since Michelangelo's is considered as a cathedral in every city it contributes as a cathedral. Bach and Shakespeare do not contribute anything. I am not certain about Oracle; has anyone ever tested it? Typically this produces more gold than you can spend.

Science: The max rate for science (or tax or lux) in Commie is 80%. In Fundy the max rate for science is 50%. The UI actually lets you set it higher but anything higher is turned into taxes automatically. Furthermore, and this is the largest handicap of fundy, all contributions to scince from city arrows are halved before they get applied. In effect this means that half of your science rate goes to waste. So if you set your science to say 40% it is equivalent to a uniform 20% corruption. There are player who coutneract this by setting science to zero, having one scientist, and relying on deliveries to fill up the tech box. But this is wasteful too (unless you keep extremely detailed records which is way too time consuming) since you have to overfill the box every time to be certain. This is exacerbated by the fact that in Fundy you are delivering primarily for science not money which you have more than you can spend anyway.

I'm getting the feeling that most players have a very different view on science from mine. IMO science comes mainly from 3 sources:

a) Initial bonuses from vans, including ones from an STC.
b) Beakers from normal cities [including from ongoing trade routes]
c) Normal beakers from an STC.

At least in my games, I have more control over a) and c) than b), so I tend to ignore b), even though it might give 20% or more of my beakers. I don't worry much about corruption unless it is clearly affecting a) or c). After approx 1ad, I usually get approx 2/3 of my beakers from a), so I tend to equate science with trade at that point. So, I am mainly planning around good bonuses [eg 200g or more, on average].
You can afford to ignore b) because you play for early conquest. When one plays for landing or high score one needs a lot more techs and thus cannot afford to ignore an important source of science whose significance grows with the size of your empire (the other two, a and c, do not).

May I suggest a personal challenge for you? This is one that I have done only once in GOTMs and 2-3 times in my personal games. Play with the goal of reaching 255 future techs (the maximum possible) before ending the game. We can even design a GOTM around this goal if there is enough interest.

I've misplaced my log [it's been almost a month now]. I do have a number of saves, so here is some data from those. If people agree on some uniform format, I'll try to conform - seems to me we want data on growth [number of cities, major units, WoWs], advances, and progress westards. Trade data would be nice, but I don't have much, just the number of vans and the size of my STCs [I had 2 modest ones, with typical improvements, but almost no STC WoWs. The Persians beat me to Colossus]. Also, I normally annotate my logs with my strategies, but won't repeat stuff already in this thread.

3150 BC: Most west = S at 454 [this is the x-coordinate of the Settler]

1500 BC: 4 cities [2 East + 2 West], 2S [settlers], 3adv, Despotism,
Most west = port city of Edo at 419.
I've sacrificed some growth to go West, but don't have Mapmaking...
Probably my planning was weak in this early phase ... had no clear view of the GOTM yet.

1000 BC: no save available [must have gotten Monarchy, Mapmaking approx now]

500 BC: 12 cities, 3S, 7adv, Monarchy, pre-STC = size 2
Most west = S at 393
Without MPE, I'm blind to rivers/etc. My S is slowly crossing southern Spanish mts.

1 AD: 20 cities [4 in Spain], 15adv, Monarchy, pre-STCs = size 1,3
Most west = city at 393; 4S, 4 vans, 1 boat, 1 WoW = MPE.
No recent progress westwards. Blocked by Spain, but am colonizing there.

500 AD: 32 cities, 21adv, Monarchy, pre-STCs = size 3,4
Most west = phx at 313; 14S, 9 vans, 12ele, 3 WoWs = MPE,Pyr,HG.

700 AD: still, most west = phx at 313. Needed better troops vs Persians.

1000 AD: 56 cities, 26adv, Republic, STCs = size 5,7
Most west = w at 294; 23S, 17 vans, 21 cru [incl ele's],
6 WoWs = ... STWA, MC, JSB

1180 AD: have crossed sea 7, ready to make ports/canals on the small landmass there.

1500 AD: 75? cities, 33adv, Republic, STCs = size 12,12
Most west = w at 294; 34S, 67 vans, 38 cru, 32 dip
7 WoWs = ... Cope's

1700 AD: 90 cities, 44adv, STCs = size 15,16
Most west = boat at 170; 36E, 101 vans, 66 dragoons, 33 dip
WoWs = ... Leo, INC
IIRC, my game sped up in the 1700s [vans arriving, faster techs, RRs, Fundy...]

1816 AD: paratrooper enters Rome. 66techs. Approx 300 units, incl bombers, armor, 100 freight..
Finished in Demo for a few extra points.

You can afford to ignore b) because you play for early conquest. When one plays for landing or high score you need a lot more techs and thus cannot afford to ignore an important source of science whose significance grows with the size of your empire (the other two, a and c, do not).


I'm gradually seeing that most landing players agree with this, but I do not. IIRC from my landing games, trade produces most of my beakers, and it grows faster than the size of my civ, faster than b). After paying the startup costs (approx 1AD? or 300AD?), I can usually get 1 tech per turn, which seems to be faster than most other players progress.

BTW - I think b) always produces more than c) in my games, and I agree it is somewhat important. And I tend to grow my civs until the end, which increases b). So, I partially agree with you. I just don't expend much mental energy trying to maximize b), as I do with a), and feel this is approx correct.


May I suggest a personal challenge for you? This is one that I have done only once in GOTMs and 2-3 times in my personal games. Play with the goal of reaching 255 future techs (the maximum possible) before ending the game. We can even design a GOTM around this goal if there is enough interest.

Aarrrgh! I appreciate that you are trying to help, but that sounds like a nightmare. I really don't enjoy playing long games, for score, or for techs for landing. IMO ICS is usually the best strategy, even for early techs / landing, so I play that way. In the late game, turns can take an hour each ... so 255 techs = 255 hours, which I just don't have.

If I played with only 10 to 15 cities, I might have different views on landing, maybe like yours. And I'd probably finish faster. But I think big is better.

I might be interested in another early landing gotm, trying to resolve our differences of opinion, especially since it's becoming "me vs the world". Also, I haven't played too many landing games, so I might be wrong about trade/etc, and might learn something.

On the other hand, I have played a few landing games (see GOTMs 63 and 75), and done quite well, after many many RL hours of effort. Also, I have argued my views in several CFC threads, and after poring over the responses, remain confident. That's why I'm not 100% eager to land again, and would do it only with a cohort of highly committed players, such as you and Magic [and.. ?].

I'm gradually seeing that most landing players agree with this, but I do not. IIRC from my landing games, trade produces most of my beakers, and it grows faster than the size of my civ, faster than b). After paying the startup costs (approx 1AD? or 300AD?), I can usually get 1 tech per turn, which seems to be faster than most other players progress.
Trade primarily grows with the reach of your empire not its size. The two are often highly correlated though.

I have seen your results and I have been amazed at how soon you manage to get 1 tech per turn.

What I am not sure about is how long you can keep that up. Same kind of reasoning goes for city placement. If you place your cities close by (ICS style) it helps you a lot in the early stages of the game but it is a handicapp in the very late stages of the game if you try to max out your cities.
Aarrrgh! I appreciate that you are trying to help, but that sounds like a nightmare. I really don't enjoy playing long games, for score, or for techs for landing. IMO ICS is usually the best strategy, even for early techs / landing, so I play that way. In the late game, turns can take an hour each ... so 255 techs = 255 hours, which I just don't have.
You are absolutely right. Real time is a major concern. Unfortunately for me, most of my GOTMs end up taking close to an hour per turn near the end.

One way to limit this is the size of the available land mass in the world.

I might be interested in another early landing gotm, trying to resolve our differences of opinion, especially since it's becoming "me vs the world". Also, I haven't played too many landing games, so I might be wrong about trade/etc, and might learn something.

First of all, the world of civ2 is pretty small. So it is you vs. a few others. :D

Secondly, you are at this point the top player by a long shot so what you say carries a lot of weight.

On the other hand, I have played a few landing games (see GOTMs 63 and 75), and done quite well, after many many RL hours of effort. Also, I have argued my views in several CFC threads, and after poring over the responses, remain confident. That's why I'm not 100% eager to land again, and would do it only with a cohort of highly committed players, such as you and Magic [and.. ?].
I remember both those games. In GOTM 63 I could not believe your speed compared to mine and the fact that you came in second in the final tally beating many more experienced landing players speaks for itself.

I am up for the challenge as long as we can agree on a time when enough real time will be available. I firmly believe that I have as much, if not more, to learn from this practice as you do.

Perhaps CharlieChuck. He's one of the few players who are higher in the HOF and plays landing games.

@Peaster....I'm not saying that my way of playing landing games is better then yours but it just fits me better. I'm always amazed how fast you develop your civ in the early part of the game.

I guess what Ali means is when developing your other cities...they boost your science and you might be able to get 2 or more techs every turn at some point in the game. This is not possible with only van deliveries. Don't know if you had more techs every turn in those GOTM games you mentioned...but it makes live a lot easier (=less RL hours playing time)....

Trade primarily grows with the reach of your empire not its size.


Why do you say this? Except for the arrival of special techs, reach usually increases linearly [slowly] while civ size increases exponentially [fast]. The total number of vans, and therefore the delivery bonuses, can increase at the same rate. Probably even faster, because a) trade gives a slightly better return (7%?) than civ growth (5%?) and b) an increasing percentage of cities can focus on vans, instead of defense/etc.



What I am not sure about is how long you can keep that up. Same kind of reasoning goes for city placement. If you place your cities close by (ICS style) it helps you a lot in the early stages of the game but it is a handicapp in the very late stages of the game if you try to max out your cities.



First, I am mainly interested in early landing, rather than GOTM score, because GOTM score is largely a function of patience. Not so much as Civ2 score, but a strong player can grow faster than 3%, and slowly increase their GOTM score by playing longer. So, I think Green is a safer measure of good strategy than Gold. Based on that goal, my thinking is roughly the following [but I haven't checked the numbers]:

Typical landing game goes like this: Build up a solid civ, with low corruption, decent defenses, room to grow, etc. Start serious trading around 500AD. Start getting [at least] one tech per turn around 1500AD. Finish around 1800AD.

My ideal landing game goes more like this: ICS until approx 1AD. Start trading around 500BC. Start getting approx one tech per turn around 300AD. Finish around 700AD. I win!

So, I am not concerned about maxing my cities. I'd be happy to get 2 techs per turn more often, but it is not very important overall. I don't have to keep my trade going strong more than about 20-30 turns, but don't see why it couldn't go on much longer.



One way to limit this is the size of the available land mass in the world.



I don't understand 100%. You are saying less land means fewer cities [for ICS], so less RL time required ? If so, I agree with your reasoning [for ICS players anyway. True for you too?]. But I think the distant cities are less important to EL.

I'd like the comparison game to be on a typical map, where people can test a variety of strategies, and any conclusions we make will apply widely. I'd be happy to see huts removed, to reduce luck, since that probably wouldn't favor one strategy over another. I'd prefer a map that supports trade in Hides, but won't insist on that.


First of all, the world of civ2 is pretty small. So it is you vs. a few others. :D

:lol: Thanks for the kind remarks [also to Magic]. I was starting to feel lonely.

@Magic: I certainly don't blame anyone for reducing RL playing time. But in strategy discussions like this, I try to focus on the goal [eg earliest possible landing] and ignore RL time, enjoyment, etc. That's how I'd want to play a serious comparison game, where we are trying to find the "best" trade strategies [I do play some other gotms just for fun, of course].

...

I'm getting the feeling that most players have a very different view on science from mine. IMO science comes mainly from 3 sources:

a) Initial bonuses from vans, including ones from an STC.
b) Beakers from normal cities [including from ongoing trade routes]
c) Normal beakers from an STC.

At least in my games, I have more control over a) and c) than b), so I tend to ignore b), even though it might give 20% or more of my beakers. I don't worry much about corruption unless it is clearly affecting a) or c). After approx 1ad, I usually get approx 2/3 of my beakers from a), so I tend to equate science with trade at that point. So, I am mainly planning around good bonuses [eg 200g or more, on average]. In this game, that meant a dozen or more decent cities in the West [size 7 or so, without huge corruption] delivering demanded vans overseas to AIs [mostly]. Also, speed matters, so it meant roads, bridges, ports, pets, etc.



One thing that can't be ignored about b) is its contribution to making cities celebrate under democracy. Until you get Cure for Cancer, a city having 3 good trade routes will celebrate at a much lower % luxury. I realise this is going off on tangent, if your playing an ICS style landing you'll run out of room for growth anyway.

I'm up for 255 techs, but we'd need a huge deadline to be fair to all, especially with summer coming up. I haven't got any other strategies to try, but I would be interested in seeing how an ICS style works.

"IIRC from Apolyton, "white goods" refers to city improvements [no?], but like Ali, I'm a bit confused, and don't see where they show up as white."

The reference is to the city list via the F1 key. City improvements are shown in white, while units are in yellow, and wonders are in light blue.

I guess what Ali means is when developing your other cities...they boost your science and you might be able to get 2 or more techs every turn at some point in the game. This is not possible with only van deliveries. Don't know if you had more techs every turn in those GOTM games you mentioned...but it makes live a lot easier (=less RL hours playing time)....
Exactly. If your main source of science is trade the max you will ever get is 1 tech per turn. If you are going after a significant number of future techs, it pays to get your empire to a stage where you can get multiple techs per turn. When I play such games I sometimes get 3 techs per turn (1 from trade, 2 from cities) in early and mid FTs and then it drops off to 2 techs per turn (1 from trade, 1 from cities) with an occasional miss when tech cost gets near its max (about FT 167).
Why do you say this? Except for the arrival of special techs, reach usually increases linearly [slowly] while civ size increases exponentially [fast]. The total number of vans, and therefore the delivery bonuses, can increase at the same rate. Probably even faster, because a) trade gives a slightly better return (7%?) than civ growth (5%?) and b) an increasing percentage of cities can focus on vans, instead of defense/etc.
I should have been more clear. Size could mean how many cities you have or it could mean how large your cities are. Trade (for science not for gold) is primarily a function of your reach (how far you can deliver) and city size (how large your cities are). Even with a small number of cities you can fill out the science box every turn.
Beyond a certain number of cities (10 to 30), your primary growth in science comes not from your SSC (which is close to maxed out by this point), and not from your reach (probably reached the whole world by this point in time) but from science you get from non-SSC cities. The way an EC (and to a lesser extent EL) player plays you already have what you need by this point and can afford to ignore the rest.
So, I think Green is a safer measure of good strategy than Gold.
I would say Green is a quicker and a different measure of good strategy since a good strategy for Blue is somewhat different than a good strategy for green.
I don't understand 100%. You are saying less land means fewer cities [for ICS], so less RL time required ? If so, I agree with your reasoning [for ICS players anyway. True for you too?].
Exactly.

I'd like the comparison game to be on a typical map, where people can test a variety of strategies, and any conclusions we make will apply widely. I'd be happy to see huts removed, to reduce luck, since that probably wouldn't favor one strategy over another. I'd prefer a map that supports trade in Hides, but won't insist on that.
I agree with the point about huts removed. I would like to add that it is better for the map to be known to remove another element of luck.

One thing that can't be ignored about b) is its contribution to making cities celebrate under democracy. Until you get Cure for Cancer, a city having 3 good trade routes will celebrate at a much lower % luxury. I realise this is going off on tangent, if your playing an ICS style landing you'll run out of room for growth anyway.
Good point.
I'm up for 255 techs, but we'd need a huge deadline to be fair to all, especially with summer coming up. I haven't got any other strategies to try, but I would be interested in seeing how an ICS style works.
I second that. If we are going to have 255FT challenge, it should be at least a 2 month game.

This might be an idea for celebrating when CFC is 10 years....which is october this year. We could even make it a 3 month special (last three months of the year). Of course there will be GOTM's in november and december but those will be "small" games.... perhaps special maps celebrating 10 years CFC.

Is it an idea if somebody else then me creates the map for that GOTM (the 3 month special). I still have several ideas for maps which will take a lot of time to create.

I am also thinking about a sea batlle map (not with modern boats) for next GOTM with almost only ocean tiles. That will be a total different game then we're used to play.

I love playing on special maps. The idea of a 3 month special is great. I have my own ideas but since we are digressing way too much in this thread I just placed my idea in its appropriate thread.

(By the way, Magic it is time to unsticky some of the older GOTMs. There are too many sticky ones right now.)

I will unstick them as soon as the HOF results are up. This way it's easier for me to see what my workload is. Planning to do GOTM 103 monday and then trying to do some more the next days.

I will copy a part of the posts in this thread to a new thread for the 10 year anniversary of CFC....

@Ace: Tx!

@rest: No Logs ?? No Stats ?? I can probably add to post 44 above, if anybody cares.

Sorry forgot to post it:)

turn year
1 4000 Kyoto
2 3950 start learning Ceremonial Burial
4 3850 Osaka
8 3650 Ceremonial Burial->Alphabet
19 3100 Alphabet->Code of Laws
33 2400 first Contact with Mongols->get Map Making
36 2250 Code of Laws->Monarchy (thanks to Map Making)

Status at -2000
Population: 0.08M; Cities: 4; Government: Despotism
Gold: 8; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 7; Production: 2MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders:
Units: 3 Wariors, 2 Settler
Romans No contact
Viking: No contact
Spanish: No contact
Persians: No contact
Mongols: No contact

44 1850 >0,1M
48 1650 Monarchy->Currency / MONARCHY
54 1350 War with Mongols / destroyed Horsemen near Japanese city
56 1250 Currency->Trade
61 1000 >0,2M

Status at -1000
Population: 0.21M; Cities: 9; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 13; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 7; Production: 24MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders:
Units: 4 Wariors, 3 Settler, 1 phalanx
Romans No contact
Viking: No contact
Spanish: No contact
Persians: No contact
Mongols: Enraged, War, No Embassy

64 925 Trade->Mysticism
67 850 >0,3M
69 800 reached ocean #8. with warrior
78 575 Marco Polo build/ destroyed Nisnaspur (got Polytheism)
79 550 got Pottery from Roman
81 500 >0,4M

Status at -0500
Population: 0.42M; Cities: 13; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 225; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 10; Production: 36MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco Polo
Units: 3 Wariors, 5 Settler, 1 phalanx
Romans: Cordial, 248g, 7 cities
Viking: Cordial, Peace, 421g, 9 cities
Spanish: Enraged, War, 294g, 6 cities
Persians: cordial, peace, 371g, 8 cities
Mongols: Enraged, War, 167g, 2 cities

83 450 Iron Working and Writing via trade
87 350 Mysticism->Literacy / got Literacy via Trade
88 325 start learning Philosophy (lost city after Mongol attack) / Hanging Gardens build
89 300 >0,5M
96 125 Philosophy->Monotheism->Seafaring / >0,6M
98 75 >0,7M

Status at +0001
Population: 0.76M; Cities: 17; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 66 Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 16; Production: 57MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco Polo, Hanging Gardens
Units: 1 Wariors, 3 Settler, 7 elephants, 4 crusaders, 1 caravan
Romans: Receptive, Peace, 231g, 7 cities
Viking: Receptive, Peace, 600g, 15 cities
Spanish: Icy, Cease Fire, 309g, 7 cities
Persians: Enthusiastic, peace, 441g, 10 cities
Mongols: Uncooperative, War, 213g, 4 cities

103 40 >0,8M
104 60 capture Kasghar (warrior code+4g)
107 120 got Bridge building, Masonry, Construction, Mathematics via trade
108 140 >0,9M/ capture Tabriz (Horseback Riding+
112 220 >1M
118 340 silk to Karakorum 42g
119 360 capture Karakorum (27g)
120 380 Bribed Bokhara (54g) / Mongols destroyed
126 500 Seafaring->Medicine

Status at +0500
Population: 1.47M; Cities: 21; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 102 Cost per turn: 2; Total advances: 23; Production: 61MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco Polo, Hanging Gardens
Units: 1 Wariors, 11 Settler, 2 phalanx, 4 elephants, 16 crusaders, 13 caravan
Romans: Neutral, Peace, 259g, 7 cities
Viking: Receptive, Peace, 898g, 19 cities
Spanish: Neutral, Peace, 446g, 10 cities
Persians: Neutral, peace, 793g, 15 cities
Mongols: destroyed

130 580 Michelangelo's build
131 600 build first coastal city / got Republic via Trade
135 680 reached next land mass
147 920 Medicine->The Wheel / got University via trade / silk to Madrid 132g+136 / captured Madrid (Great Library+57g)
148 940 >2M / captured Salamanca (36g)
150 980 capture Seville (28g)
151 1000 bribed Barcelona (25g)

Status at +1000
Population: 2.54M; Cities: 29; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 167 Cost per turn: 4; Total advances: 26; Production: 109MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco Polo, Hanging Gardens, Great Library, Michelangelo's
Units: 1 Wariors, 18 Settler, 2 phalanx, 4 elephants, 19 crusaders, 3 trireme, 2 diplomat, 25 caravan
Romans: Neutral, Peace, 123g, 8 cities
Viking: Receptive, Peace, 1343g, 22 cities
Spanish: Enraged, War, 213g, 6 cities
Persians: Neutral, peace, 1056g, 17 cities
Mongols: destroyed

152 1020 captured Bilbao (20g)
153 1040 silk (80g)
154 1060 captured Saragossa (41g)
155 1080 >3M / dye 280g / captured Valencia (lighthouse+41g)
156 1100 The Wheel->Engineering
157 1120 capture Cadiz (35g)
159 1160 silk 184g / capture Granada(32g)
160 1180 gold (160g)
161 1200 silk 84g
162 1220 Engineering->Invention / silk 104g + salt 112g
163 1240 silk 96g / destroyed Malaga / silk 112g + 64g+64g+72g
165 1280 Invention->Chemistry / gold 58g + silk 62g+40g
166 1300 Leonardo's build / silk 32g
167 1320 copper 72g
168 1340 >4M / hides 42g+32g
170 1380 salt 80g / bribed Jinjan (27g)
171 1400 Chemistry->Gunpowder
172 1420 capture Isthakr (54g) / silk 62g
173 1440 gold 64g+56g/ bribed Zohak (85g)
174 1460 gold 54g+36g
175 1480 capture Ergili (55g)

Status at +1500
Population: 4.56M; Cities: 39; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 1077 Cost per turn: 7; Total advances: 30; Production: 137MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco Polo, Hanging Gardens, Great Library, Michelangelo's, Lighthouse, Leonardo's
Units: 2 Wariors, 33 Settler, 4 phalanx, 28 crusaders, 1 legion, 3 trireme, 2 diplomat, 26 caravan
Romans: Receptive, Peace, 177g, 8 cities
Viking: Receptive, Peace, 1831g, 26 cities
Spanish: Uncooperative, Cease Fire, 215g, 1 city
Persians: Enraged, war, 1153g, 14 cities
Mongols: destroyed

177 1510 gems (52g)
178 1520 silk 76g
179 1530 Gunpowder->Explosives / captured Hamadan (55g) / bribed Gulhaman (106g) / silk 96g+88g
181 1550 gems 100g + silk 130g
182 1560 >5M / bribed Pasargadae (Colossus+79g) / hides (76g) + gems (32g)
183 1570 Explosives->Astronomy
184 1580 REPUBLIC (need faster science)
185 1590 bribed Bactra (106g) / silver 50g
186 1600 >6M / gems 60g + silver 52g
187 1610 silver (78g)
188 1620 King Richard build / capture Susa (53g) + bribed Antioch (74g)
189 1630 Astronomy->Navigation / silk 220g / capture Sidon (83g) / dye 120g + gold 90g / reached the seccond sea
190 1640 dye (68g)
191 1650 Navigation->Physics / >7M / captured Vallodalid (Spanish destroyed) got Feudalism and 246g / captured Gordium (46g) + Darius Kabir (42g)
192 1660 captured Tarsus / bribed Sardis + Samaria / hides 43g / reached small landmass between Persian and empty landmass
193 1670 >8M
197 1710 Physics->Steam Engine
198 1720 Cunaxa / beads 26g
200 1740 beads 88g + silver 18g
201 1750 Steam Engine->Railroad / Cannae / gold 82g / reached empty landmass (the Vikings have some cities on it now)
202 1752 >9M / silver 56g
203 1754 silver 105g
204 1756 dye 44g
205 1758 Banking via Great Library / Railroad->Democracy
206 1760 >10M
209 1766 Sun Tzu build
212 1772 bribed Tyre (89g)
214 1776 >11M
215 1778 beads 76g + gold 11g
216 1780 gold 46g
217 1782 gold 148g + 50g + silver 59g
218 1784 gold 48g + 18g
220 1788 Sanitation via GL
222 1792 >12M / gold 118g
223 1794 Democracy->Industrialization / hides (259g) + silver 187g
224 1796 Darwin build->Industrialization->Theology->Communism
226 1800 bribed first Viking city

Status at +1800
Population: 12.88M; Cities: 65; Government: Republic
Gold: 366 Cost per turn: 46; Total advances: 43; Production: 348MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Marco Polo, Hanging Gardens, Great Library, Michelangelo's, Lighthouse, Leonardo's, Colossus, Sun Tzu, King Richard, Darwin's Voyage
Units: 49 Settler, 17 musketeers, 45 crusaders, 10 caravel, 3 diplomats, 46 caravan
Romans: Receptive, Peace, 296g, 10 cities
Viking: Receptive, Peace, 1044g, 30 cities
Spanish: destroyed
Persians: Uncooperative, cease fire, 115g, 1 city
Mongols: destroyed

229 1806 >13M
231 1810 J.S. Bach build
232 1812 Communism->Magnetism
234 1816 Statue of liberty build
236 1820 changed to Communism
237 1822 bribed last Persian city->Persian civ destroyed
238 1824 Magnetism->Espionage
241 1830 >14M
243 1834 reached sea near Viking mainland
247 1842 Espionage->Corporation
248 1844 Womans Suffrage build
250 1848 >15M
251 1850 Corporation->Theory of Gravity / reached Viking landmass / captured Twaite
252 1851 Eiffeltower build
253 1852 copper 628g / capture Sigtuna
254 1853 Theory of Gravity->Chivalry / >16M / oil 408g + silver 422g + dye 422g + oil 308g + oil 174g + dye 314g / capture Holmgard (Oracle)
255 1854 Chivalry->Leadership / United Nations build
256 1855 capture Larne
257 1856 coal 845g + spice 1128g / captured Aldeigjuborg
258 1857 Leadership->Tactics / >17M / dye 884g + silk 1212g / capture Jarlshof+Skara
259 1858 Tactics->Genetic Engineering / >18M / copper 624g + silk 1014g + oil 424g / capture Kvivik
260 1859 Genetic Engineering->Atomic Theory / copper 904g + silk 1466g / captured Kaupang
261 1860 Atomic Theory->Electricity / Cure of Cancer build / silver 426g
262 1861 silver 654g+670g + gold 818g / capture Hladir + Birka
263 1862 Electricity->Electronics / Isaac Newton build / >19M / silver 432g + silk 368g / capture Viborg / silver 306g + gold 162g + 374g
264 1863 Electronics->Refrigeration / gold 634g + 662g / captured Roskilde
265 1864 Refrigeration->Steel / oil 526g + silver 1038g+714g+534g / captured Jarrow
266 1865 Steel->Machine Tools / Hoover Dam build / >20M / silk 1680g+829g / captured Lindholm + Westness
267 1866 Machine Tools->Miniaturization / silk 760g + gold 660g + silver 334g + silver 760g + oil 1128g / captured Lunde + Ravning Enge
268 1867 Miniaturization->Refining / >21M / captured Hedeby / captured Jelling
269 1868 Refining->Combustion / Vikings change government / >22M / captured Odense
270 1869 Combustion->Automobile / captured Asskrig (magelan's
271 1870 DEMOCRACY / >23M
272 1871 Automobile->Mobile Warfare
273 1872 >28M / bribed last Viking city-> Vikings destroyed
275 1874 Mobile Warfare->Mass Production / >33M
276 1875 Mass Production->Computers / >36M
277 1876 Computers->Robotics / >39M
278 1877 SETI Program build / >40M / bribed Syracuse
279 1878 Robotics->Flight / >43M
280 1879 >45M
281 1880 Flight->Radio / >48M
282 1881 Radio->Advanced Flight / >50M
283 1882 Advanced Flight->Rocketry / >53M / reached last sea near rome
284 1883 Rocketry->Space Flight / >57M
285 1884 Space Flight->Combined Arms / >62M
286 1885 Combined Arms->Nuclear Fission / Apollo Program build / >67M / captured Rome / Romans destroyed

Thanks, Magic. I spent a few minutes looking for differences between our games and didn't find anything huge. At 1AD, our growth was similar [I had +3 cities, but you had +1 WoW. I had crossed the sea, but you had more units]. By 1000AD, I had many more cities, but I'm not sure that matters much on such a long map. Probably it helped with trade + science + WoWs, but not with pushing basic EC units west.

I crossed the first sea approx 35 turns earlier [but not with a large force] and stayed about 35 turns ahead in the race westwards until the end. Not sure I understand this 100%. In reading your log, I'm assuming you didn't usually bypass unconquered cities, like I did.

You built Leo's much earlier [and therefore researched Invention earlier]. I usually delay Invn/Nav until last in my early tech tree, to preserve trade bonuses, but I have never been quite sure about that idea. I can't tell which worked better here just from our logs. Eventually, I got about 30 turns ahead of you in science, but am not sure that mattered ; we seemed to move thru the Vikings + Romans at approx the same speed, even though your Vikings were tougher.

Maybe if others post logs, I'll try for a more careful comparison. Or someone else can.

I think the biggest difference was you bypassed the enemy. I did stay to long in monarchy which caused I didn't researched well. However Republic didn't work as I aspected but perhaps when moving earlier to it could helped me more.

Because I did not trade much I decided to go for Leo. Upgrading my troups was important at that time...

Some stats, forgot to save at 1ad, but have saves at 120bc and 180ad

I messed up at start by building capital on a mountain river

3100bc 2 cities 1 warrrior, 3 techs research code of laws, furthest city west 494
2250bc 4 cities 2 warriors, 4 techs research monarchy, furthest city west 486
1450bc 7 cities 2 warrior 1 horse, 6 techs research currency, furthest city west 486 found mongols
750bc 11 cities 4 warrior 1 horse 6 ellies, 9 techs research maps, furthest city west 477 MPE not yet built
375bc 13 cities (incl karakorum) 4 sett 5 warrior 1 horse 6 ellies 4 vans, 12 techs (not researching anything), MPE nearly built 12 shield left, furthest city west 435
Mongols defeated between 125bc and 120ad (thjnk it was 80AD)
120 ad 19 cities, 6 ellies 1 dip 1 trirems, 17 techs research republic, 3 wonders MPE, colossus HG, Persians built lighthouse??, west city 419, 2 ellies about to land on spanish continent

will post more later

Some stats, forgot to save at 1ad, but have saves at 120bc and 180ad

I messed up at start by building capital on a mountain river

.... 120 ad 19 cities, 6 ellies 1 dip 1 trirems, 17 techs research republic, 3 wonders MPE, colossus HG, Persians built lighthouse??, west city 419, 2 ellies about to land on spanish continent


Is this 120ad or 120bc ? Either way, it seems you are approx as far along as MG and I were at 1AD, despite your weak capital. 3 WoWs is very nice, and defeating the Mongols early has to help.

@MG: Bypassing an enemy can save lots of time on a normal map, and it was a key idea in GOTM 58, which I based my GOTM 109 plans on. But this map is so narrow, it was hard to bypass civs effectively. I had to defeat over half the Spanish and Persian cities before passing them. And all the Vikings, IIRC. So it helped, but maybe not hugely.

I am still undecided about Leo, and about the best govt between about 1AD and the discovery of Democracy / SoL [maybe around 1500AD ??]. There will be big corruption whatever you do, and I was not totally happy with Republic, since cele-growth is the main benefit, and it doesn't last that long. Just an idea ... switch from Monarchy to Republic, for about 12 turns, to cele/grow some decent sized Eastern cities. Then, switch back to Celebrating Monarchy, to avoid ongoing support and Senate problems, and still allow strong trade. Then, as soon as you get Demo, build SoL and switch to Fundy. All that celebrating would be expensive, but I think you could pay for it easily with lots of trade.

Actually, IIRC getting to Demo was a low priority for me - I wanted Engineers and RRs more urgently. Not sure about this decision either... Fundy was a bigger help than expected. Gee, this was a complex game.

For me Railroad and engineers was most important too. If I play this game again I know I should trade more and accept low revenues to get those techs earlier. And I think in this game the SoL is one of the most important members.

Is this 120ad or 120bc ? Either way, it seems you are approx as far along as MG and I were at 1AD, despite your weak capital. 3 WoWs is very nice, and defeating the Mongols early has to help.

was 120ad, I got the save date wrong in the post. You're definately ahead, I finished 1874ad just before MG.

600ad 26 cities (3 spanish cities left) 5 ellies 3 crus 2 vans, 23 techs (researching construction), Republic, 7 wonders + GL, Gwall, Sun tzus & michaels, furthest city west 385.
1080ad 37 cities (just captured 2 persian cities) 13 sett 3 elleis 13 crus 19 vans, 25 techs (res. Astro), repub, 7 wonders, furth west 330
1520ad 45 cities (6 persian cities left) 15 sett 2 ellies 18 crus 38 vans, 31 techs (resear Invention), in monarchy, 8 Wonders + Copper, lighthouse was destroyed, Kyoto size 12 88science nearly finished Isaacs, furth west 296

will do last bit tomorrow

I'm trying to decide which statistics best "tell the story". Kind of hard, since our games seem so similar. Have looked mainly at 1ad, 1000ad and 1500ad. We 3 were very similar in terms of advances, and size of army. I eventually built more cities and vans, which probably helped my science later on [unclear whether that really mattered, though it was pleasant to finally get Fundy, spies, etc].

I started racing Westwards from the beginning, and got ahead early, crossing into Spain first. I think we moved west at similar speeds after that, so I suppose we were all moving at approx the max speed in the late game. I guess the "race west" idea was good. At the time I had doubts about it - about high corruption, slowed ics growth, etc. But maybe that is a key stat for this gotm; westward progress ASAP.

On the other hand, we 3 had very similar early tech progress. So, that stat might be even more important - it's hard to say just from our 3 games. A 4th player might help us decide on this.

@CC; did you switch monarchy - republic - monarchy ? If so, did that work out well ?

Thanks for posting logs. It is nice to be able to compare. I am not done yet. I got back in town last week and after catching up with life started playing. I need at least another week. I should be able to finish before Magic's two week extension runs out.

Some major differences between my game and the ones posted here are that:

1. I kept the second settler for terrain improvement. I usually do this but at times I wonder about its value vs. building a second city. In this game with no specials I was pretty sure it is worthwhile to keep the settler.

2. I did map analysis and mined all hidden specials.

3. I have been very slow moving West. Far slower than the rest of you.

My first push was obviously for Monarchy which with careful manipulation was achieved and established in -1650. Next goal was trade which was achieved in -925. With only 5 cities at the time and the urge for expansion Marco did not get done till -325. Colossus got done the same turn in my trade city. I do not remember now why I did both in parallel; in retrospect Colossus could have waited longer.

Other than map exchange Marco was a disappointment. Vikings and Persians had very few techs; Mongols I had already met and traded with; Spanish only had Mysticism among the things I wanted; but worst of all Romans with half a dozen techs that I did want were unwilling to trade because they were building Pyramids.

From this point on the Romans were a major pain. They took for ever to build Pyramids and within a few turns switched to other wonders and the same story repeated. I had to research many techs I could have traded with them.

I made the wonder race a priority and have been pleased with the results so far. I only missed out on Sun Tzu to Spanish.

One big regret is not building a shore city on the east coast sooner. After Mongols killed one of my two exploring warriors and bribed the other one away I somehow forgot about the importance of finding the shore and building a city there. My city there was founded in 1300. My first city in Spain was founded in 1520.

War with Mongols went very slow and I wonder why. I razed one of their cities and bought another in 340 yet in 1000 they still had 5 cities. They were reduced to a single city with no capital in 1240 and will be kept around because they are my key civ.

Per my plan I stayed in Monarchy till I switched to Democracy in 1260. I deliberately skipped Republic and I think it was a wise decision. I am in democracy now and plan to build Statue of Liberty soon and switch to celebrating fundy.

There is little improvement left to be done in my continent that could be done by settlers before Railroad and farmland.

Date Notes

-4000 One settler moves west revealing 5 more tiles which eliminate only 1 Resource seed. The other founds Kyoto for lack of a better thing to do. Warrior started.
-3950 -> Alphabet
-3500 Alphabet -> Code of Laws.
-3350 Resource seed is 1 or 33. Capital has no specials.
-2950 Resource seed is 1.
-2750 Osaka founded.
-2650 Code of Laws -> Ceremonial Burial.
-2250 Edo founded.
-2100 Ceremonial Burial -> Monarchy.

Status at -2000
Population: 0.05M; Cities: 3; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Despotism
Gold: 13; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 4; Production: 8MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders:
Units: 2 Settlers (1 None), 2 Warriors
Roman: No contact
Viking: No contact
Spanish: No contact
Persian: No contact
Mongol: No contact

-1850 Satsuma founded on mountain. Edo will be the science city if there is going to be one.
-1650 Monarchy -> Currency. Monarchy established. T3L0S7.
-1400 Kagoshima founded. Two cities switch to wonder production.
-1250 Currency -> Trade.
-1000 Warrior runs into Mongols. Ceremonial Burial -> Mongol (1) -> peace. My power is moderate.

Status at -1000
Population: 0.13M; Cities: 5; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 24; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 6; Production: 16MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders:
Units: 4 Settlers (1 None), 3 Warriors
Roman: No contact
Viking: No contact
Spanish: No contact
Persian: No contact
Mongol: No embassy

-0925 Trade -> Writing. Monarchy, Currency, Code of Laws -> Mongol (1) -> Mapmaking, Iron Working.
-0875 Nara built on mountain.
-0675 Writing -> Literacy.
-0650 Nagoya founded.
-0550 Izumo founded.
-0500 Literacy -> Mysticism.

Status at -500
Population: 0.29M; Cities: 8; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 12; Cost per turn: 0; Total advances: 11; Production: 27MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders:
Units: 4 Settlers (1 None), 7 Warriors
Roman: No contact
Viking: No contact
Spanish: No contact
Persian: No contact
Mongol: No embassy

-0325 Marco and Colossus built.
Literacy, Monarchy, Currency, Trade -> Spanish (1) -> Mysticism, peace, maps
Literacy, Mapmaking -> Viking (3) -> peace, maps
Ceremonial Burial, Mapmaking -> Persian (4) -> peace, maps
Iron Working, Mapmaking -> Roman (6) -> peace, maps
Literacy, Mysticism, Writing, Trade -> Mongol (2) -> neutral attitude
Romans have 6 techs they do not want to trade because they are trying to build Pyramids. T7L0S3
-0300 -> Philosophy.
-0275 Nagasaki founded.
-0225 Philosophy -> Medicine -> Pottery
-0200 Yokohama founded.
-0100 Shimonoseki founded.
-0025 Persians build Lighthouse.

Status at +0001
Population: 0.56M; Cities: 11; Trade routes: 0D0F; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 178; Cost per turn: 1; Total advances: 14; Production: 38MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Colossus, Marco
Units: 7 Settlers (1 None), 14 Warriors, 1 Diplomat, 5 Caravans
Roman: 7 cities, 18 techs
Viking: 11 cities, 2 techs
Spanish: 6 cities, 12 techs
Persian: 12 cities, 3 techs; Lighthouse
Mongol: 6 cities, 14 techs

+0020 Matsuyama founded.
+0080 First offensive unit, a legion, produced. Sapporo founded.
+0100 Pottery -> Seafaring. Hakodate founded.
+0120 Spanish build Great Library. Romans finally agree to Knowledge exchange now that I already have Pottery and Spanish would automatically get it all.
Philosophy, Mysticism->Roman (5) -> Bridge Building , Construction
Vikings (3) demand 100g and declare war when I refuse. Persian (4) ignore my demand for tribute. T3L0S7
+0140 Spanish build Oracle. I build Hanging Gardens in trade city of Edo. Mongol horseman shows up near size 1 undefended Matsuyama.
+0160 Mongolhorseman spares Matsuyama.
+0180 Mongol horseman razes Matsuyama for 3g and Construction, then dies in attack on my nearby settler.
+0220 Ise founded where Matsuyama used to be.
+0240 Mongols kill one of my front line warriors and bribe the other one away!
+0260 Seafaring -> Horseback riding.
+0300 T7L0S3
+0320 Hides to Mongol Karakorum for 108 establishes the first trade route.
+0340 Shakespeare built in trade city Edo which celebrates. Mongol Ormuz razed when Legion kills its defending Phalanx. Mongol Kabul bought for 206g. Got 29g, Horseback riding, 2 soldiers, and a settler. Accepted Mongol offer of 100g for cease fire and another 100g for peace.
+0360 -> Wheel.
+0420 Wheel -> Engineering. T3L0S7
+0480 Mongols declare war over my demand for tribute.
+0520 2 Mongol units killed in attack on my legions.
+0540 Hides to Mongol Nishapur for 128.
+0560 Mongols lose two more units attacking me. Engineering -> Invention. Phalanx defending Mongol Basra killed.
+0580 Mongol horse kills my warrior fortified on rivered mountain. Mongol Basra razed. 3 legions lost in attack on Mongol settler on rivered mountain.
+0620 Toyama founded.
+0660 Khanbalyk bought for 80g. Got 8g, Polytheism, 2 warriors, and 2 settlers.
+0700 Accepted Mongol offer of 250g for peace. Fukushima and Suo founded.
+0720 Romans finally build Pyramids. Invention -> Gunpowder.
+0740 Leo built.
+0760 Mongols declare war over my demand for tribute. Lost two units in attack on Aleppo.
+0860 Spanish build Sun Tzu. 5 legions attack Mongol Aleppo and after two casualties render the city defenseless. Settler takes the city for 12g, Warrior Code, and Barracks. Bizen3 founded.
+0880 Mongol Phalanx on mountain bought for 112g.
+0900 Echizen founded.
+0920 Gunpowder -> Monotheism. Izumi3 founded.
+0960 Omi3founded.

Status at +1000
Population: 2.09M; Cities: 24; Trade routes: 0D2F; Government: Monarchy
Gold: 360; Cost per turn: 3; Total advances: 25; Production: 96MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Colossus, Marco, Hanging Gardens, Shakespeare, Leo
Units: 16 Settlers (1 None), 8 Warriors, 36 Musketeers, 4 Elephant, 4 Diplomats, 17 Caravans, 1 explorer
Roman: 8 cities, 25 techs; Pyramids
Viking: 21 cities, 2 techs
Spanish: 9 cities, 21 techs; Great Library, Oracle, Sun Tzu
Persian: 17 cities, 3 techs; Lighthouse
Mongol: 5 cities, 20 techs

+1020 Accepted 100g from Mongols for peace.
+1040 Echigo5 founded. Mongols declared war over my demand for tribute. Two musketeers kill the 2 defenders of Tabriz and the city is taken for 4g.
+1060 Domestic delivery for 16.
+1080 Mongols kill 4 units on mountain near Karakorum.
+1100 Monotheism ->Masonry. 4 defenders of Karakorum killed and the city taken for 12g. Mongol Bokhara bought for 336g. Got 15g, Barracks, and 3 soldiers. Accepted Mongold offer of 50g for cease fire.
Invention, Warrior Code -> Roman (5) -> Banking, Masonry
+1120 -> Democracy. Mongol Phalanx turned None bought for 42g. Mongol settler turned None bought for 168g.
+1140 Michelangelo built. Domestic salt for 6.
+1160 Romans build Great Wall. I build King Richard's. No wonders left to build. Domestic salt for 14.
+1180 Gems to Mongol Nishapur for 42.
+1220 Kozuke founded.
+1240 Gems to Mongol Kashgar for 6. Finally collected enough to buy Mongol Nishapur for 424g. Got 11g, 3 soldiers, 1 settler, and a barracks. Mongols are down to one city and surrounded. Tech bombed Mongols.
Gunpowder, Engineering -> Roman (5) -> Math, University, maps
+1260 Democracy -> Chemistry. Democracy established. T3L3S4. Accepted Mongol offer of 50g for peace. Disbanded over a dozen musketeers.
+1280 Most cities celebrate.
+1300 Sado, my first east coast port city, founded.
+1320 T6L3S1
+1400 Mongol settler, turned None, bought for 168.
+1440 Mongol elephant, turned None, bought for 84g.
+1460 Mongol Catapult bought for 84g. T7L3S0
+1480 Mongols sneak attack and kill their former catapult.
+1500 Crusader kill Mongol archer.

Status at +1500
Population: 6.57M; Cities: 31; Trade routes: 12D1F; Government: Democracy
Gold: 703; Cost per turn: 39; Total advances: 31; Production: 194MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Colossus, Marco, Hanging Gardens, Shakespeare, Leo, Michelangelo, King Richard's
Units: 21 Settlers (3 None), 16 Warriors, 19 Musketeers, 1 None elephant, 9 Crusaders, 2 Trireme, 4 Diplomat, 21 Caravans, 1 explorer
Roman: 8 cities, 31 techs; Pyramids, Great Wall,
Viking: 25 cities, 11 techs
Spanish: 13 cities, 31 techs; Great Library, Oracle, Sun Tzu
Persian: 20 cities, 11 techs; Lighthouse
Mongol: 1 cities, 29 techs

I'm trying to decide which statistics best "tell the story". Kind of hard, since our games seem so similar. Have looked mainly at 1ad, 1000ad and 1500ad. We 3 were very similar in terms of advances, and size of army. I eventually built more cities and vans, which probably helped my science later on [unclear whether that really mattered, though it was pleasant to finally get Fundy, spies, etc].

I started racing Westwards from the beginning, and got ahead early, crossing into Spain first. I think we moved west at similar speeds after that, so I suppose we were all moving at approx the max speed in the late game. I guess the "race west" idea was good. At the time I had doubts about it - about high corruption, slowed ics growth, etc. But maybe that is a key stat for this gotm; westward progress ASAP.

On the other hand, we 3 had very similar early tech progress. So, that stat might be even more important - it's hard to say just from our 3 games. A 4th player might help us decide on this.

@CC; did you switch monarchy - republic - monarchy ? If so, did that work out well ?

Govt switch back to Monarchy was due to unhelpful senate. I was getting a tech every 7 turns at 70% science, not ideal for any long time but handy to finish off the persians. I changed to Demo after capturing Ergli.

You finished nearly 50 turns earlier than Magic and I, so it must either be the boost you got from your westward advance or something you did 1500-1800 that we didn't. I remember losing time building a canal path through continent 3 (to left of persians)

1600ad 50 cities (2 persian left, 1 on mainland) 15 sett 2 ellies 19 crus 48 vans, 33 techs (research theo, just got Demo), govt still monarchy, techs now every 5 turns Kyoto 162 beakers a turn, 9 wonders + isaacs, west city 286
Changed to Demo between 1610-1630
1710 Just about to buiild first city on continent 3, 55 cities (still 1 persian left, hidden on cont 3), Demo, Techs 4 turns at 40% science, 36 techs research medicene, 10 wonders + Leos, west city 281
1770 64 cities, Demo, techs 3 turns at 40%, 45 techs, research chivalry, 24 engin 17 crus 74 vans, 12 wonders +Js & king rich,west city 250
1800 67 cities 13,072 gold (nothing really to spend on), Demo, 56 techs research metall, now 5 turns at 40%, 26 engin 14 dragoons 6 spies 9 explorers 49 vans, 16 wonders, furthest city west 222 furthest unit west 177 at coast, nearest settler to coast 220

I think I lost my way a bit between 1500-1700.

Govt switch back to Monarchy was due to unhelpful senate. I was getting a tech every 7 turns at 70% science, not ideal for any long time but handy to finish off the persians. I changed to Demo after capturing Ergli.

Sounds very reasonable ... I don't know the best answer for govts in this game, but if I played it again, I might go with Despotism - Monarchy - Republic [briefly] - Monarchy [celebrating] - Fundy.

IMO it is best to get beakers mostly from trade, with the science bar set fairly low, but I seem to be in the minority on that.


You finished nearly 50 turns earlier than Magic and I, so it must either be the boost you got from your westward advance or something you did 1500-1800 that we didn't. I remember losing time building a canal path through continent 3 (to left of persians)

Well, I don't recall doing anything clever in 1500-1800. I just built up a tidal wave of crusaders, dips, vans, settlers [and eventually more advanced units] - to destroy the Viks/Romans without slowing down. Maybe ICS/big trade made this easier for me ? Dunno. The only major event in that period was getting to Espionage. Since spies could move 3, they got ahead of my wave, and speeded up my conquest a little. I was also very concerned with govt + RRs + engineers, but in hindsight, I think Spies were the key to that phase. Anyway, I assume most peoples' late game was similar to mine, and that any major differences came earlier.

I also built 3 canal cities on the "island" just past Persia, which was a little inefficient, but not a big delay IMO.

I thought we finished remarkably close; 50 turns isn't a huge gap in such a long game. I think most of that came from pushing steadily Westward in the early game; building a western port, and invading Spain ASAP. But I didn't feel confident that I was doing it properly [I had to wait too long for mapmaking, for example] and I still have doubts about doing size one twice, etc. As MG mentioned, bypassing helped. Also, I always RB'd as much as possible in my most western cities, to help keep the front moving - but I guess everyone did that.

@Ali: Good luck [and don't forget to Go West]. Your games are always a mystery to me - even with your very detailed logs, I can never decipher your overall plans, and yet you do extremely well.

@Ali: Good luck [and don't forget to Go West]. Your games are always a mystery to me - even with your very detailed logs, I can never decipher your overall plans, and yet you do extremely well.

Ironically, I can say the exact same thing about your games. Your speed even in the early game where there should not be all that much difference amazes me.

I now have 3 cities in Spain, 2 built, one bribed right before they switched to Democracy. My bottleneck right now is lack of enough ships to move units across fast enough. I have a ton of units waiting to move and only 3 triremes due to lack of enough port cities. My biggest regret now is that I did not build that port city earlier. Next turn I will get Navigation and with auto upgrade from Leo I should get a 50% capacity increase.

I have started to trade with Spain and despite not having what they demand caravans coming from large east coast cities bring several hundred (it think max was 580). One caravan is bypassing Spain for Persia.

I built Statue of Liberty a few turns ago having to rush buy the last 10 shields to beat Romans to it. Now I am debating how long I should stay in Democracy for growth and science. My trade city just maxed out (no refrigeration yet) and my eastern cities are about to.

Ironically, I can say the exact same thing about your games. Your speed even in the early game where there should not be all that much difference amazes me.

Usually, about 90% of my early strategy is straight out of DaveV's guide to ICS. It seems some other GOTM players are ICSing too, and are getting similar early growth.

BTW - Did other players use the size 1 trick in this GOTM ? I used it twice ... not sure about best play on that.

I built Statue of Liberty a few turns ago having to rush buy the last 10 shields to beat Romans to it. Now I am debating how long I should stay in Democracy for growth and science. My trade city just maxed out (no refrigeration yet) and my eastern cities are about to.

I'll be watching - it seems most players so far have focused on going West ASAP. I think you have focused more on Civ-building, hoping for a later, but faster, push [?]. So, your results could be interesting.

This was the reign of democracy. Major developments were discovery of explosives which led to Leo making my 20 or so settlers into Engineers. Major terrain improvement in home continent. Two crucial wonders were built in this period: Bach and Statue of Liberty. I started building cities in the Spanish continent and trading with the Spanish.

+1510 Shanjan founded. T2L3S5
+1520 Chemistry -> Explosives. Chemistry -> Spanish (5). Medicine -> Roman (4) -> Astronomy. Domestic Gems for 66. Gibraltar, the first city in Spain, founded. Spanish Avila subverted for 2x91g. Got 18g and got stuck with Feudalism.
+1530 Offered peace to Mongols and tech bombed them. T0L3S7
+1540 Explosives -> Sanitation. T2L3S5
+1550 Cunaxa founded. Domestic Beads for 28.
+1570 Copernicus built. Sanitation -> Theology.
+1580 Khanbalyk disbanded to allow neighboring cities to grow.
+1590 Khoy founded.
+1600 Theology -> Metallurgy.
+1610 Cannae founded in Spain.
+1620 Had to buy 7 shields to beat Romans to Statue of Liberty .
+1630 Metallurgy -> Conscription. Statue of Liberty built.
+1640 Trade city of Edo maxes out at 17. Undemanded Silver establishes the first overseas trade route for 180.
+1650 Conscription -> Economics. Undemanded Silver from trade city to Madrid for 580.
+1660 Economics -> Navigation. Romans have Navigation but will not trade due to Magellan. Undemanded Silk to Madrid for 162.
+1670 Undemanded silver from Kyoto to Madrid for 378.
+1680 Navigation -> Physics. Bach built. T0L4S6 for a final push of science and growth before the clergy take over.
+1700 Physics -> Magnetism.
+1710 Capua founded in Spain near Madrid.
+1720 Magnetism -> Steam Engine. T1L2S7. All but 3 cities would have stopped celebrating anyway and two of them can go on at 20% lux.
+1730 Beads to Barcelona for 284. I was ready to change governments and attack but wisely I spent a diplomat and checked the status of Seville. It is defended by 2 musketeers likely to be vets (they have Sun Tzu) behind city walls. My 5 crusaders only one of which is vet are no match for these. I have to wait till I bring more units over. T0L2S8
+1740 Steam Engine -> Railroad. Gems to Spanish for 372. Dye to Spanish for 208.
+1750 Railroad -> Electricity.

Status at +1750
Population: 15.5M; Cities: 37; Trade routes: 17D7F; Government: Democracy
Gold: 173; Cost per turn: 105; Total advances: 45; Production: 282MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Colossus, Marco, Hanging Gardens, Shakespeare, Leo, Michelangelo, King Richard's, Copernicus, Statue of Liberty, Bach
Units: 20 Engineers (3 None), 31 Riflemen, 16 Crusaders, 5 Cannon, 4 Galleon, 12 Diplomat, 35 Caravans, 1 explorer
Roman: 10 cities, 34 techs; Pyramids, Great Wall,
Viking: 27 cities, 14 techs
Spanish: 13 cities, 37 techs; Great Library, Oracle, Sun Tzu
Persian: 20 cities, 17 techs; Lighthouse
Mongol: 1 cities, 33 techs

Switch from Democracy to Fundamentalism and major war with Spanish and later Persians characterize this era. Shortly after losing a few cities Spanish switch to democracy and make my progress quite slow. Thankfully Persians stayed away from democracy. I have had only one major set back so far in my military campaign so far and that was when Persians bought back a recently bribed city. I had a long column of cavalry, cannons, and freight next to it all of which were lost. I immediately bribed the city back but lost half a dozen units in the process most regrettably freight that had traveled from the other side of the world and could not be replaced in a timely manner.

Other major event in this era was discovery of railroad and building of massive rail networks both in home continent and Spain.

+1752 Electricity -> Refrigeration. Copper to Spanish for 224. With Great Library obsolete I tech bombed Mongols to reduce research cost.
+1754 Spanish drop out of democracy, sneak attack, and kill a rifleman as I have massed over a dozen units on Madrid. 2 Spanish units killed. Madrid has 5 Musketeers behind City walls. Diplomats start a campaign of industrial sabotage on Madrid destroying its temple, musketeer production, and marketplace before I run out of diplomats. Looks like the attack has to wait another turn. T7L2S1
+1756 All rivals unite against me despite my good relations with Persians and Romans. Refrigeration -> Chivalry. Adam Smith built. Second campaign of Sabotage on Madrid results in loss of production and finally the destruction of city walls. Attack on Madrid starts with 2 Cannons and continues with a multitude of crusaders. After the loss of one cannon and 4 Crusaders, the 6 defenders of Madrid are killed and the city is taken for Sun Tzu, 59g, Chivalry, Oracle, and Aqueduct. Senate immediately hand the Spanish a cease fire. Time to bring in the clergy. Revolution started. Spanish Valladolid bought for 505. Got 55g, 2 units, and 3 structures.
+1758 Spanish kill a caravan. Fundamentalism established. T1L8S1. 3 units lost in attack on Spanish. Spanish have switched back to Democracy. Three attempts of Industrial sabotage on Seville takes down the city walls. Killing the 3 musketeers defending the city still costs 3 crusaders. The city is taken for 61g.
+1760 -> Leadership. Spanish are back in Monarchy. Salamanca bought for 712g.Got 92g, 4 soldiers, and 5 structures. T5L4S1
+1762 Spanish establish a new capital. Romans build Magellan. Undemanded caravans to Spain for 43, 40.
+1764 Two Persian warriors die in attack on my caravan.
+1766 Spanish Valencia captured at the expense of two Crusaders. Got 74g, Great Library, and 3 structures. Undemanded delivery to Spain from trade city for 400.
+1768 First Supermarket built. Bilbao bought for 249g. Got 28g and a soldier. Domestic offshore deliveries for 200, 68, 38, 27, 48, 52. Tech bombed Mongols.
+1770 Persian elephant killed in attack on my caravan. Leadership -> Tactics. Undemanded deliveries to Spain for 146 and Persians for 514. Coal to Spanish Barcelona for 280.
+1772 First pollution appears near trade city. Undemanded deliveries to Spain for 59, 68. T3L4S3
+1774 Tactics -> Industrialization. Tabriz relocated to take better advantage of terrain. T6L4S0 in anticipation of Darwin next turn. Gave away railroad to Romans who became worshipful and then when I demanded tribute declared war. Vikings and Persians wanted money just to talk to me. Spain has switched back to Democracy. Killed 2 Spanish units.
+1776 Darwin built. Industrialization -> Corporation -> Genetic Engineering. T5L4S1. Cadiz captured for 59g and Granary. Silk to Spain for 540. Coal to Mongols for 157. Domestic offshore Spice for 248. Genoa founded in Spain.
+1778 Undemanded delivery to Spain for 100.
+1780 Spanish kill a Freight. New Spanish capital of Pamplona captured for 14g and marketplace. Undemanded delivery to Spain for 308. Crete founded in Spain.
+1782 Genetic Engineering -> Steel. Undemanded deliveries to Spain for 186, 312. Domestic offshore deliveries for 67, 119, 75.
+1784 Spanish Vigo captured for 37g. Now I am at the Persian border.
+1786 Persians kill a freight. Undemanded deliveries to Persia and Spain for 156, 242, 96. Persian Herat bought for 745. Got 90g, 2 units, and 2 structures. Persian diplomat bought for 208g.
+1788 Steel -> Machine Tools. Herat survives Persian elephant. Cure for Cancer built. Domestic Dye for 82. Undemanded deliveries for 107. Persian elephant bought for 278g. Persian Jinjan bought for 1160. Got 141g, 4 units, and 3 structures. Persian settler bought for 528 (now None). Persian Borazjan bought for 685. Got 81g, 3 units, and 2 structures.
+1790 Persian diplomat bought for 190g. Undemanded deliveries for 66, 92. Persian settler bought for 508 to make a city.
+1792 Kabul relocated to take better advantage of terrain. Domestic Silver for 70. Barcelona taken for 99g and city walls. Persian Zohak bought for 1048g. Got 136g, 7 units, and 3 structures. Verona founded in western Spain.
+1794 Persians bribe Herat back and also take Railroad. Many units next to the city disappear and then reappear as Persian units. The new Persian Cavalry kill a diplomat and a freight. Hert bribed one more time for 166g. Got 42g, 3 structures (same as before) and 5 units, 4 of which were my own Cavalry. Still lost many units including some valuable freight. Granada taken for 53g and 3 structures. Persian Cannon bought for 202g. Domestic deliveries for 422, 104, 116.
+1796 Machine Tools -> Communism. After losing 3 units Persian Istakhr bought for 436g. Got 53g, 6 units, and 3 structures. Persian Ghulaman bought for 535g. Got 63g, 2 units, and 3 structures. Persian Settler bought for 380g. Domestic Oil, Spice for 226, 234. Undemanded deliveries for 98, 116, 145.
+1798 Undemanded deliveries for 174. Domestic Copper for 242.
+1800 Communism -> Espionage. Undemanded deliveries for 160, 72. Domestic Spice for 272. Dariush Kabir bought for 910g. Got 90g, 2 units, and 3 structures. Sidon bought for 620g. Got 58g, 2 units, and 2 structures.

Status at +1800
Population: 19.7M; Cities: 59; Trade routes: 105D8F; Government: Fundamentalism
Gold: 4001; Cost per turn: 256; Total advances: 56; Production: 395MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: Colossus, Marco, Hanging Gardens, Shakespeare, Leo, Michelangelo, King Richard's, Copernicus, Statue of Liberty, Bach, Great Library, Oracle, Sun Tzu, Adam Smith, Darwin, Cure for Cancer
Units: 25 Engineers (4 None), 2 Phalanx, 5 Musketeers, 2 Alpine, 43 Riflemen, 30 Cavalry, 12 Artillery, 4 Transports, 17 Diplomat, 35 Freight, 1 explorer
(Rival status in 1798 before loss of Marco)
Roman: 10 cities, 38 techs; Pyramids, Great Wall, Magellan
Viking: 27 cities, 24 techs
Spanish: 2 cities, 37 techs;
Persian: 14 cities, 26 techs; Lighthouse
Mongol: 1 cities, 55 techs

In this era I took over the rest of Persia, built 2 canal cities in the wasteland west of Persia, and landed on continent 4. Having seen some units there from map exchange with Persians long before, I expected to see cities there and was surprised there was nothing there. Vikings had a city on the west side (but not on the coast) which I bribed in 1850. Discovery of Espionage early in this era and Radio later in the era were remarkable tech advances. I embarked on a huge campaign of building airports helped by a treasury which went over 10K in 1826.

+1802 Persian Tyre bought for 1068g. Got 75g, 3 units, and 3 structures. Undemanded deliveries for 75, 81, 168, 215, 73, 126, 89.
+1804 Espionage -> Refining. UN built. Persian settler bribed for 388. Persian Cannon bought for 360. Persian Susa bought for 475g. Spy turned vet. Got 24g, a Phalanx, and barracks. Domestic Oil for 336. Undemanded Oil for 320.
+1806 Domestic deliveries for 38, 308. Saragossa captured for 176g and 2 structures.
+1808 Persians take Susa back despite me having a Spy there. Luckily they take Industrialization and not espionage, tactics, or democracy. Susa bribed back for 71g. Spy turned vet. Got 9g, a structure, and 4 units but not my spy back or my freight back. Persian Phalanx and Elephant bought for 423 and 634. Persian Gordium bought for 1085g. Spy turned vet. Got 53g, 2 units, and 2 structures. Spanish Malaga captured for 63g. Spanish civilization destroyed. Undemanded deliveries for 162.
+1810 Refining -> Combustion. Persian Antioch bought for 484. Vet Spy lost. Got 53g, 2 units, and 2 structures. Undemanded deliveries for 94, 72.
+1812 Persian settler, turned None, bought for 256g. Persian Samaria bought for 365g. Spy turned vet. Got 53g, 3 structures, 2 soldiers, and a caravel! Persian settler for 244g. Silk to Persian Bactra for 690 (highest pay out so far). Undemanded deliveries for 174, 153, 205.
+1814 Combustion -> Theory of Gravity. Undemanded deliveries for 74, 111.
+1816 CanalEast founded between Persia and Scandinavia. Undemanded deliveries for 75, 361, 184.
+1818 CannalWest founded. Persian Dakyanus , near canal cities, bought for 184g. Spy survived. Got 30g, barracks, and a unit. Undemanded deliveries for 93, 186.
+1820 Theory of Gravity -> Flight. Domestic Silk for 444. Undemanded deliveries for 82.
+1826 Viking warrior bought for 38g. Domestic Silk for 522. For the first time my treasury went above 10K.
+1828 Flight -> Radio. Newton built. Copper to Persians for 515. Domestic Silk for 352. Persian musketeer bought for 138g. Undemanded deliveries for 111, 57, 91, 71.
+1830 Persepolis founded at the western edge of Persia. Spice to Persians for 44. Undemanded deliveries for 92, 31.
+1832 Radio -> Advanced Flight. Undemanded deliveries for 214, 131, 175, 126, 134, 132. Persian Bactra bought for 800g. Spy turned vet. Got 69g, 3 structures, and 2 units. Salzburg founded in Western Spain.
+1834 Gems to Persians for 62.
+1836 Undemanded deliveries for 166. Spice, Silk to Persians for 28, 54. Persian musketeer for 133g. Persian Ergili bought for 376g. Spy escaped. Got 63g, 2 units, and 2 structures.
+1838 Advanced Flight -> Electronics. Bergen founded in Spain. Undemanded deliveries for 147.
+1840 Viking warrior bribed for 41g. Undemanded deliveries for 190, 128, 30. Venice founded on the eastern shore of Scandinavia.
+1842 Vikings build Suffrage. Deliveries for 284, 122, 18. Persian settler, turned None, bought for 268g.
+1844 Deliveries for 91, 126.
+1846 Electronics -> Rocketry. Milan founded in eastern Scandinavia. Deliveries for 36, 26.
+1848 Deliveries for 34, 35, 141, 162. Persian settler, turned None, bought for 264g.
+1850 Finally ran into first Viking city. Fyrkat bought for 167g. Spy captured. Got 9g, Republic, 2 units, and 3 structures. Viking horseman bought for 91g. Deliveries for 66, 344.

Status at +1850
Population: 28.1M; Cities: 77; Trade routes: Full-26; Government: Fundamentalism
Gold: 14022; Cost per turn: 601; Total advances: 65; Production: 529MT; 0 polluted tiles
Wonders: 18
Units: 1 None Settler, 31 Engineers (6 None), 1 Phalanx, 2 Musketeers, 4 Alpine, 68 Riflemen, 1 Horseman, 36 Cavalry, 14 Artillery, 8 Transports, 21 Spies, 63 Freight, 2 explorers

Roman: 11 cities, 42 techs; Pyramids, Great Wall, Magellan
Viking: 28 cities, 39 techs; Suffrage
Spanish: Destroyed by me
Persian: 4 cities, 28 techs; Lighthouse
Mongol: 1 cities, 59 techs

After bribing their one and only city in continent 4 in 1850, I quickly reached the coast in 1853 and discovered 3 of their ships: a trireme, a frigate, and a transport. Only the trireme was empty and was bribed, loaded, and taken away. The Frigate could have caught up with it and sank it, setting me back several turns, but it did not. I made sure there is a tech discovery next turn to upgrade the ship. In 1854 the viking transport unloaded too and was bribed away. Same turn I built a city on the west coast of continent 4 using an engineer flown in from mainland to an airport built overnight in the tiny viking city I bribed in 1850.

The first Viking city on continent 1 was bribed for 1108 in 1855. The Viking capital turned out to be closeby. As I was bringing forces over I bribed three more nearby cities at the costs of 1K, 2K, and 4K. Viking capital fell in 1859 but was quickly rebuilt in the east. From this point on I was bribing some and capturing a few till I discovered Combined Arms in 1865. The introduction of paratroopers to my air force extended my reach beyond that of my spies and allowed me to capture 2-3 Viking cities each turn with the last one in 1871.

Romans have 11 cities. One that I have by passed and ten in front of me. My current Western location is 67.

At this pace I expect to be done in late 1870s or early 1880s.

From this point on I was bribing some and capturing a few till I discovered Combined Arms in 1865. The introduction of paratroopers to my air force extended my reach beyond that of my spies and allowed me to capture 2-3 Viking cities each turn with the last one in 1871.

At this pace I expect to be done in late 1870s or early 1880s.

Very interesting. Thanks for the verbal descriptions. I thought you had delayed your westwards push too long, but now you seem to be moving very fast. Can you describe briefly how you use the paratroopers to conquer quickly ? I've rarely used them and forget exactly how they work ... IIRC you want them to start their turn in a city, so they can "jump" about 10 tiles ... and then they can attack in the same turn [or do you attack mainly with planes]? Anyway, I guess that after emptying the AI city, you move more paratoopers in, to repeat the process next turn. So, you can push forward at almost 10 tiles per turn, even faster than spies on rivers ?

If I got your method right, it could form the basis for best strategy in GOTM 108.1) Use ICS, SSC, Big Trade, or whatever to race towards Combined Arms ASAP. 2) Make a swarm of paratroopers, [maybe suppported or followed by planes, engineers, RRs, spies, etc] to push West at almost 10 tiles per turn. 3) Bypass some AI cities, if necessary, to keep the front moving towards Rome. 4) Conquer the bypassed cities later with spies/etc. Do you think this would work ?

One problem might be a big gap between AI civs, for example 30 tiles between the Persian and Vikings, with no cities there to support the paratroopers. I guess this would slow down the conquest quite a bit ? You'd have to wait for your engineers to catch up and build cities [or airbases?] ... or march the paratroopers along slowly ? Or am I missing some tricks with modern units that would solve this problem ?

Can you describe briefly how you use the paratroopers to conquer quickly ? ... IIRC you want them to start their turn in a city, so they can "jump" about 10 tiles ... and then they can attack in the same turn [or do you attack mainly with planes]? Anyway, I guess that after emptying the AI city, you move more paratoopers in, to repeat the process next turn. So, you can push forward at almost 10 tiles per turn, even faster than spies on rivers ?

You are not as rusty as you think. That is exactly the method. You attack with vet Fighters who can travel 10 tiles (in any direction including over water) per turn and empty the city. Then your paratrooper drops in and takes the city. Spies on rivers can go 9 tiles per turn but they have to follow the bend of the river and in this game the bends are so twisted that for slower units scaling the mountains is sometimes faster.

If I got your method right, it could form the basis for best strategy in GOTM 108.1) Use ICS, SSC, Big Trade, or whatever to race towards Combined Arms ASAP. 2) Make a swarm of paratroopers, [maybe suppported or followed by planes, engineers, RRs, spies, etc] to push West at almost 10 tiles per turn. 3) Bypass some AI cities, if necessary, to keep the front moving towards Rome. 4) Conquer the bypassed cities later with spies/etc. Do you think this would work ?

It would except that given the terrain it would have been impossible to grow fast without taking out the Mongols and very difficult without taking out the Spanish.

One problem might be a big gap between AI civs, for example 30 tiles between the Persian and Vikings, with no cities there to support the paratroopers. I guess this would slow down the conquest quite a bit ? You'd have to wait for your engineers to catch up and build cities [or airbases?] ... or march the paratroopers along slowly ? Or am I missing some tricks with modern units that would solve this problem ?
Again you are right with one minor exception. Planes need to park at cities (or airfields) and thus are restricted to how fast the engineers move. Paratroopers can only paradrop starting from a city and are otherwise a slow 1 tile per turn unit.

The minor exception are helicopters, which also come with combined arms. There is no preset limit on how far a helicopter can stay in the air except that it loses health as it does and would eventually die of exhaustion. Furthermore, helicopters are the one air unit which can actually occupy a city. So the only other way to scale continent 4 would have been to send a bunch of helicopters across it. Given how long that continent is and that helicopters go only 6 tiles per turn it is doubtful the arriving fleet would be in any shape to take a city. It is worth an experiment though. Once you establish a beach head on another continent you can build an airport and slowly send troops (one per turn per airport).

Yes, it seems continent 4 would be a problem for that plan, the way I stated it. Maybe it'd be best to get Combined Arms at about the time you finish crossing 4 with engineers [probably not stopping to make RRs]. Then try to finish fast, mostly with paratroopers and planes.

But this is pretty theoretical. I got Combined Arms too late in my game to make a difference. I probably could not have gotten it much earlier, without a major change in game plan, almost from the start. And for me, the flow of this game was hard to foresee that early. So, I guess it's fair to say we did well. I can't find any plan for EC in GOTM 108 much better than what we did.

Roman musketeers were no match for my nearly 20 fighter planes. The only reason it took 6 turns to defeat them was geography. As with the latter part of the Viking campaign, my fighters rendered a city defenseless and my paratroopers walked in.

Mongols single city was taken out right after Rome to finish the game.

My major regret in this game:
1. Not establishing a city on my home continent's western shore sooner.
2. Not disbanding my artillery and cavalry after the Spanish campaign. Persians and eastern Vikings were defeated with spies, the rest with fighter planes. The keeping of the cavalry and artillery (even though I had less than 50 total of both together which is less than what others have reported) wasted a significant portion of my real time.

This was a fun game but it took too much real time. Having missed the gauntlet (I actually did play it but decided to be isolationist and win by landing which I did) I really wanted to do this one.

Thank you Magic for the brilliant map and thanks for the extension without which it would have been impossible for me to finish.