The sun rises on the year 4000 BC. Since time immemorial, the Sirian people have lived a nomadic life. After years of wandering, they are ready to settle down and found your first city.

Willem van Oranje, your people have vested absolute power in you, trusting that you can build a Civilization to stand the test of time!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=248157&stc=1&d=1270085451

Neat! Thanks, Dave.

Holy heck, if everyone has a start like this, combined with tech trading on, this game is going to blitz through the tech tree. :eek: That's going to make defence quite a lot easier and offence much, much harder. Interesting.

Since you've taken our leader to put on the map, I presume you've also taken the other teams' leaders. Mind posting in the main forum with the list of civs? :)

holy :):):):) that is nice, guess they making it up to u for that last game eh Lord parkin

well we should defintly settle without moving

Well, everyone will likely have something similar, or else this start would be vastly unbalanced. Which worries me slightly, given how fast teching can be when one person has 2 Golds at their capital, let alone everyone having something similar, let alone tech trading on... but I digress. Thanks for making the map, Dave. :)

well it appears to be an island

No possible way of knowing that right now just from the fact that it's a coastal start. But it would be kind of neat if it turned out to be an islands map. Indiansmoke wouldn't be happy (he was pushing for a pangaea), but everyone else would probably be okay with it. :p

This is a financial civ's dream. Most certainly a good situation to settle in place. I don't know the map maker's philosophy about modifying starts, but I wouldn't assume that everyone else will have comparable starts, sometimes you can balance out a good capital city site by giving better locations nearby for the 2nd and third cities.

What do you think about the first build? Maybe a workboat to get that nice coastal fish up quickly.

Well, perhaps we have no Horses or Copper and have a next door neighbour with both. In that case, that wouldn't be particularly balanced either. :p

It's interesting to note that the impact of Financial will be slightly lessened if everyone has similar starts. (For instance, one guess would be two civs each start with Gold, Silver and Gems respectively.) It'll still be a good trait, but if everyone else has similar resources, the impact of Financial will be lessened slightly. Not that I'm regretting picking a Financial leader at all, this is a tasty start after all. ;)

Haven't analysed it in detail yet, but my guess is Work Boat first will almost certainly be the best option. (I'm glad we started with Fishing!) The question is probably whether two Work Boats or Work Boat -> Worker will be the preferable option. That's harder to say without doing a proper analysis.

Heh... just had a thought. You know what would be funny? If this start was an April Fools' joke, and then the real one was much less shiny. :p

lol hope not :cry:

Yeah, that would be mean, taking away our nice Golds and Fishies. I hope not too. ;)

Oh god... Yeah it could be, he's a few hours early on my clock, but I don't know where Dave is from.

Ha, I bet it is an April Fools joke!

But if it isn't, I think we need to capitalize on our Creative trait and prioritize Writing for a quick Library / Academy in the capital. All that early commerce needs early multipliers

Heres what i think our immeditae area looks like with bleeding; ice is stuff i have no clue about

EDIT: Version 1.3

Nice work, wabatt.
But if it isn't, I think we need to capitalize on our Creative trait and prioritize Writing for a quick Library / Academy in the capital. All that early commerce needs early multipliers
Yeah, an early Great Scientist will be very, very powerful for this start. We should definitely try to pump one out ASAP.

I propose we spurn this double-fish double-gold plains-hill river site and settle 1W for an optimal one off the coast.

Ok being serious now, having fishing and no land-food makes a 6-turn workboat a pretty obvious first choice, unless we think we need a warrior. I don't think we do need a warrior first as we can build one in three turns if we need to, and should have at least 3 turn's warning of any attack. Plus I don't expect us to be super-close to any other civs.

Tech wise my thoughts are:
* mining we need at least before we finish the worker, as the gold should be the priority.
* writing as early as possible.
* bronzeworking at least before writing or else the library will take forever to build anyway, creative or not.
* sailing when we have time to build a lighthouse, probably not straight away but maybe first after writing?
* hunting + animal husbandry can possibly wait, although if there's no copper around we will need some sort of barb defense.
* mysticism and friends we can hopefully skip for quite a while, being creative. I know there's some good stuff down this path but we can't have everything.

The ideal early capital will be 6 population, working fish, fish, gold, gold, scientist, scientist (then switch scientists for cottages once we have an academy and the happy cap is lifted). For this though we will need at least 1 more happiness (if I count it right anyway - 4 happiness for free and 1 from gold), preferably two if we've been whipping. If we're lucky we might find a happiness resource to cover this without a big detour down the mysticism line for a religeon or HR.

So, this turn, I would settle in place first, then move the warrior 7 (NW) to move away from the coast and reveal more, work the plains hill, build a workboat, and set tech to mining.

We get 4 happiness for free, plus one from the gold, plus one from the palace. So it'll be 6 right from near the start.

I agree with your tech priorities. I'd also add The Wheel (we'll have to hook up that Gold), and probably Pottery at some stage, being Financial (although we won't need cottages in our capital until much later).

It's a shame we're not Industrious and don't appear to have Stone around (although maybe we'll get lucky and find some). The Pyramids would be absolutely ideal for this start. Failing that though, we'll need Monarchy pretty early, which conflicts a bit with the plan above to avoid the religious line for a while.

We get 4 happiness for free, plus one from the gold, plus one from the palace. So it'll be 6 right from near the start.

Ahh of course, palace indeed. So, we can work the fish-gold-scientist capital as soon as we build the library. Without even monarchy.


I agree with your tech priorities. I'd also add The Wheel (we'll have to hook up that Gold), and probably Pottery at some stage, being Financial (although we won't need cottages in our capital until much later).

I had those in mind as necessary pre-requisites for writing, although now that I check, you can get it from animal husbandary or priesthood as well. I usually prioritise pottery anyway so I've never noticed you can skip it.

It's a shame we're not Industrious and don't appear to have Stone around (although maybe we'll get lucky and find some). The Pyramids would be absolutely ideal for this start. Failing that though, we'll need Monarchy pretty early, which conflicts a bit with the plan above to avoid the religious line for a while.

I won't deny hereditary rule is extremely good, but I'm not sure to what extent we *need* it, given what we can do with the 6 happiness we've got. I'd certainly consider writing (via pottery), bronze working, and sailing to be higher priority, but that's not saying much as they're basically early techs. By the time we have those we'll be in a better position to compare the cost of monarchy+prerequisites to things like alphabet, calendar and currency, with hopefully the possibility of trading for monarchy and/or its prerequisites. I'm not saying don't get it, but if for instance we can get another 3 happiness with calendar then I'd rather get calendar first. This is getting all a bit too far ahead though.

Of course I'm skipping the oracle and various other wonders here, I'm just expecting that a team which starts with mystycism is going to beat us to the oracle, and that the various other marble wonders via polytheism aren't worth pursuing without marble. The lighthouse is definately worth considering when we're on the coast, especially if no-one is industrious, and only requires a minor detour to masonry.

Heres what i think our immeditae area looks like with bleeding; ice is stuff i have no clue about

EDIT: Version 1.3

I'm certain that "tundra" is actually a plains hill forest.


Workboat first, working the plains hill forest seems far and away the best opening with this start.

Workboat first, working the plains hill forest seems far and away the best opening with this start.
Yeah, I agree... we don't have any land food resources, so starting with the Work Boat will be a good idea. The question is, after the first Work Boat, do we go with another Work Boat -> Worker, or go straight to a Worker -> Work Boat? My guess is that the latter will be preferable, since we want to get the Gold hooked up ASAP.

So I'm tentatively voting for:

Work Boat -> Worker -> Work Boat at the present. When I have some time I'll do some tests to confirm whether this is the best opening.

From a very quick and totally unscientific test, we could hypothetically go work boat, work boat, warrior, and whip the first worker.

Urgh... I don't particularly like the idea of whipping our very first Worker. Should be able to build it quick enough with 2 improved Fish resources, in the case you mention above. But I have a (completely unscientific, as yet) feeling that building the Worker as our 2nd build will turn out better.

So, this turn, I would settle in place first, then move the warrior 7 (NW) to move away from the coast and reveal more,

If the warrior is moved N on the hill, wouldn't it reveal more land and maybe part of the northerly coast?

Not in this case because the hill is surrounded by forested tiles which reduce visibility to one tile.

You're right. I took a closer look and there is an edge of forest visible beyond the northern tiles.

Urgh... I don't particularly like the idea of whipping our very first Worker. Should be able to build it quick enough with 2 improved Fish resources, in the case you mention above. But I have a (completely unscientific, as yet) feeling that building the Worker as our 2nd build will turn out better.

We'd be 1pop whipping the worker at size 3, so we'd still have 2 fish to work. We don't want to work the gold hills unless we're at pop capacity or building a settler.

The basic plan I used was workboat working the plains hill forest. After building the first workboat, work the fish and when we grow also work the plains hill forest, which gives 3 turns to grow to size three and 3 turns to build a warrior, and 4 turns to finish Bronze (if I didn't mess up the settings or the map). So build the warrior, grow to size three, start on the worker, and whip it once we learn bronze and can switch into slavery. Then wheel > pottery > ah > writing ideally.

I'll also vote for settle in place. :)


So I'm tentatively voting for:

Work Boat -> Worker -> Work Boat at the present. When I have some time I'll do some tests to confirm whether this is the best opening.

My initial assessment is also work boat > worker might be better. I don't have much experience with World Builder, but a rolled a similar Willem start and tweeked it with World Builder a bit to resemble our start (sort of).

If we work the plains forest hill, we can get the WB in 6 turns (WB = 30:hammers:/3:hammers: from PFH + 2:hammers: from the capital) and we could research Mining in 8 turns, but we'll be stagnant for that time.

I tested building another WB while working the PFH, followed by a Worker while working the improved coastal fish. I complete the Worker and finished researching BW (which I arbitrarily choose after Mining for test purposes) both on turn 21, but Amsterdam had been stagnant the entire game to that point.

If we instead build the Worker after the first WB (while switching to work the improved coastal fish), we finish the Worker in 9 turns (on turn 15). Switch back to working PFH tiles while the worker mines the gold and Amsterdam builds the next WB. In this case the second WB is finished on turn 21, but the gold is mined on turn 19, and switching to work the gold PH from the PFH on that turn gets us BW 1 turn faster (on turn 20). Amsterdam also will not have grown at all in this scenario.

In summary going WB > Worker > WB gets us the gold PH mined while the second WB is built. If we build the second WB first, it will improve a tile that we will not be able to work before the Worker is finished.

WB > Worker > WB looks better than WB > WB > Worker to me.

Caveat: I haven't looked at what effect substituting a Warrior is the queue might have.

Edit: I also haven't looked at Azzaman333's analysis yet, but I have to get up for work tomorrow so I won't have a chance tonight.

We wouldn't work the PHF for the 2nd work boat until size 2, allowing us to grow to size 3 by the time we start building the worker.

If anyone gets the chance, upload a test save to run these sorts of things through so we're all using the same settings with the tests.

We wouldn't work the PHF for the 2nd work boat until size 2, allowing us to grow to size 3 by the time we start building the worker.

If anyone gets the chance, upload a test save to run these sorts of things through so we're all using the same settings with the tests.

Hmm... that might be OK. I will have to try your plan tomorrow (later today). I agree it would nice to have a test save.

OK - I did a quick run through of Azzaman333's plan (WB > WB > Warrior > whip Worker) in my test game.

After the first WB I switched to working the coastal Fish while building the 2nd WB. Amsterdam grew to size 2 on turn 11 and I worked both the Fish and the PFH. The 2nd WB was finished on turn 15. The Warrior was finished 3 turns later, coinciding with the growth to size 3. BW was finished on the next turn (t19), and I revolted into Slavery and started the Worker.

I wasn't able to whip the Worker until turn 22 (for 1 pop + 14 :hammers:). The overflow would let us build another Warrior in 1 turn.

So in this approach we would have an additional Warrior and some city growth in exchange for not having the gold hooked up (In my test it won't be mined until t28).

Edit: really going to bed now. Sorry if I missed something obvious.

I still think getting the Golds hooked up and worked ASAP is the best plan, and Work Boat -> Worker -> Work Boat probably gets us that fastest. The commerce boost from working both Gold tiles is enormous, and almost triples our initial research rate. We should thus aim to get them both hooked up and worked as fast as physically possible.

Unfortunately I may not have time to properly test the optimum opening until after the weekend, but when I do, I'll definitely upload a test save for everyone else to play around with too.

Some micro for the first few turns. Somebody needs to check my working though as I am prone to error with these things. The format should be self explanatory, I give key turns, the total amount of stuff produced after those turns, and then the amount produced per turn until the next key turn. I don't count the 9 commerce you get for free from the palace and starting tile. In all of these options, the first warrior comes very late. Someone might like to analyse the costs of building a warrior earlier. It will affect different options by different amounts.

A: Worker -> Workboat

1: Worker, work whatever
. 0
. +5 hammers
4: Work silk
. 15 hammers
. +5 hammers +1 commerce
13: Worker finished, switch to workboat, work the phf
. 60 hammers 9 commerce
. +5 hammers
17: Gold improved, switch to gold
. 80 hammers 9 commerce
. +5 hammers +8 commerce
19: Workboat complete. Switch to whatever
. 90 hammers, 25 commerce
. +5 food, +2 hammers, +3 commerce
20: -
5 food, 92 hammers, 28 commerce
At this point it's clearly inferior to workboat->worker. For 2 extra worker turns that we don't have a particular use for, we lose 15 food, 9 hammers and 11 commerce. We don't have enough food to work the second gold anyway, and if we chop half a forest with those 2 worker turns we're still clearly behind.


B: Workboat -> Worker

1: Workboat, work phf
. 0
. +5 hammers
7: Switch to worker, work fish
. 30 hammers
. +7 hammers, +3 commerce
16: Worker complete, switch to warrior
. 93 hammers, 27 commerce
. +5 food, +2 hammers +3 commerce
20: Grow to 2, gold finished, work gold and fish
. 20 food, 101 hammers, 39 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +11 commerce
21: Warrior built. Revolt to slavery (note: actually better to do this after second workboat)
. 23 food, 106 hammers, 50 commerce
. +0
22: Switch to workboat
. 23 food, 106 hammers, 50 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +11 commerce
27: -
. 38 food, 131 hammers, 105 commerce

C: Workboat -> Wrow -> Worker

1: Workboat, work phf
. 0
. +5 hammers
7: Switch to warrior, work fish
. 30 hammers
. +5 food, +2 hammers, +3 commerce
11: Grow to 2. Switch to worker. Work fish and silk.
. 20 food, 38 hammers, 12 commerce
. +8 hammers, +4 commerce
19: Worker finished. Switch back to warrior, working fish and pfh
. 20 food, 102 hammers, 44 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +3 commerce
20: Warrior built. Revolt to slavery
. 23 food, 107 hammers, 47 commerce
. +0
21: Build workboat
. 23 food, 107 hammers, 47 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +3 commerce
23: Gold improved, work fish and gold
. 29 food, 117 hammers, 53 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +11 commerce
27: Workboat built
. 41 food, 137 hammers, 97 commerce


D: Workboat -> Grow -> Whip Worker
NOTE: This assumes bronze working available at turn 15 from a total of 159 beakers. This is almost certainly not possible. Note also that if it was possible, then option E could be improved by revolting while the second workboat travels to the fish.

1: Workboat, work phf
. 0
. +5 hammers
7: Switch to warrior, work fish
. 30 hammers
. +5 food, +2 hammers, +3 commerce
11: Grow to 2. Switch to worker
. 20 food, 38 hammers, 12 commerce
. +8 hammers, +3 commerce
15: Revolt to slavery
. 20 food, 70 hammers, 24 commerce
. +0
16: Whip worker
. 0 food, 100 hammers, 24 commerce
. +5 hammers, +3 commerce
17: Worker built, switch to warrior, still working fish
. 105 hammers, 27 commerce
. +5 food, +2 hammers, +3 commerce
18: Warrior finished, switch to workboat
. 5 food, 107 hammers, 30 commerce
. +5 food, +2 hammers, +3 commerce
21: Grow to size 2. Gold improved. Work fish and gold
. 20 food, 113 hammers, 39 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +11 commerce
26: Workboat finished, switch to warrior
. 29 food, 138 hammers, 94 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +11 commerce
27: -
. 32 food, 143 hammers, 103 commerce


E: Workboat -> Workboat -> Whip Worker
1: Workboat, work phf
. 0
. +5 hammers
7: Second workboat, work fish
. 30 hammers
. +5 food, +2 hammers, +3 commerce
11: Grow to size 2, work pfh
. 20 food, 38 hammers, 12 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +3 commerce
16: Workboat complete. Switch to warrior
. 35 food, 63 hammers, 27 commerce
. +3 food, +5 hammers, +3 commerce
17: Fish improved, work both fish
. 38 food, 68 hammers, 30 commerce
. +8 food, +2 hammers, +4 commerce
18: Grow to size 3, switch to worker
. 46 food, 70 hammers, 34 commerce
. +11 hammers, +4 commerce
21: Revolt to slavery
. 46 food, 103 hammers, 50 commerce
. +0
22: Whip worker
. 22 food, 133 hammers, 50 commerce
. +10 hammers, +4 commerce
23: Worker built, switch to warrior
. 22 food, 143 hammers, 54 commerce
. +8 food, +2 hammers, +4 commerce
24: Warrior built. Another warrior
. 30 food, 145 hammers, 58 commerce
. +8 food, +2 hammers, +4 commerce
26: Grow to size 3, work silk
. 46 food, 147 hammers, 66 commerce
. +8 food, +3 hammers, +5 commerce
27: Gold improved, second warrior finished
. 54 food, 150 hammers, 71 commerce


Summary after 27 turns:
A is strictly worse than B
B 38 food, 131 hammers, 105 commerce, first warrior turn 21
C 41 food, 137 hammers, 97 commerce, first warrior turn 20
D is unfortunately probably impossible
E 54 food, 150 hammers, 71 commerce, first warrior turn 24

It looks like a trade off between food/hammers and commerce. I'd be inclined towards the food/hammers of E. The only trouble with E is the first warrior is very late, and building one any time earlier holds the worker and therefore the gold commerce up by probably another 3 turns.

At a glance your working seems okay, except I don't know why you include a revolt to Slavery in all of the options - even when we're not whipping. There is absolutely no use in revolting to Slavery if we're not using the whip. We're better off waiting to revolt until we want to do our first whip, and keeping the early turns free of Slavery.

IMO, settle on place, work the plains/hills/forest, build two workboats (for food and city grow)
then worker and warrior, research mining and bronze.

At a glance your working seems okay, except I don't know why you include a revolt to Slavery in all of the options - even when we're not whipping. There is absolutely no use in revolting to Slavery if we're not using the whip. We're better off waiting to revolt until we want to do our first whip, and keeping the early turns free of Slavery.

For the sole reason that at the end of 27 turns each option is running slavery. It may indeed not be a wise choice, but this way the comparison is fairer.

Also though, if we're going to use slavery eventually (and I think we will), then it is generally more efficient to revolt while you're waiting for a worker to improve a tile, or for a workboat or settler to travel. Basically, you will lose 1 turn globally at some point revolting to slavery, but when you do the workers are still working and units still moving. So choosing when to revolt is choosing when you want to get a free turn on all your units. This is why I revolt specifically while improving the gold in a couple of cases, as it's basically 8 commerce for nothing compared with revolting at a later time when you don't need the worker turns for anything.

This doesn't account for the other option of waiting until hereditary rule (or, more rarely, organised religeon) and saving a turn of anarchy by doing two together though.

We should try to time the worker with mining. That is, research different tech(s) while building the workboat(s). Then build the worker while researching mining - try to get worker on Gold on the same turn that mining is done.

We should try to time the worker with mining. That is, research different tech(s) while building the workboat(s). Then build the worker while researching mining - try to get worker on Gold on the same turn that mining is done.

That delays Bronze Working = bad idea. Gotta know where the copper is.

It looks like a trade off between food/hammers and commerce. I'd be inclined towards the food/hammers of E. The only trouble with E is the first warrior is very late, and building one any time earlier holds the worker and therefore the gold commerce up by probably another 3 turns.

2 of our opponents start with scouts instead of warriors, so that wouldn't really worry me.

I've also uploaded a test save that I believe is accurate (at least for the BFC

Heh... just had a thought. You know what would be funny? If this start was an April Fools' joke, and then the real one was much less shiny. :p
I'm sorry, but this comment is too hard to look past right now. I'll be back tomorrow when I feel I'm not gonna be fooled by double gold.

From my calculation, we can build 2 work boats, 2 warriors and a worker, and be working both fish and a gold by the end of turn 27 (starting from turn 0), with the first warrior built at turn 17 and bronze researched on turn 19.

I would like to correct my own post:
Build workboat, but working the fish until grow; then work the hills and fish; build 2nd workboat,
worker,warrior.

That delays Bronze Working = bad idea. Gotta know where the copper is.


Why? What do we need copper for immediately? Are you afraid someone will axe rush us? I think we can afford a tech or 2 before we go for BW.

I think we agree that the Workboat should be the first build. Then if we build a worker without mining, our worker is left with nothing to do but <term snipped>. Turns wasted.

BTW, please provide reasoning in your posts from now on...that's kinda the point of this game...you know...discussion...

Edit: I realize you're Australian so for translation <term snipped>

Why? What do we need copper for immediately? Are you afraid someone will axe rush us? I think we can afford a tech or 2 before we go for BW.


Rather than copper, the reason I usually choose to tech BW early (and did so in my test games) is Slavery. It is one of the best ways to boost early production, especially since we have enough food to grow back quickly and gold to help boost happiness. That said, we probably want to avoid Slavery/whipping until necessary, so we can work the gold tiles as much as possible. (Also, although I don't think we'll get axe-rushed, someone did take Cyrus. :undecide:)

Thanks for the test save Azzaman333! :goodjob:

Heres is a world builder I made if anybody wants to experiment/test the first turns
Edit: Sorry azzaman not trying to 1-up ya didn't see yours before post

Why? What do we need copper for immediately? Are you afraid someone will axe rush us? I think we can afford a tech or 2 before we go for BW.

I think we agree that the Workboat should be the first build. Then if we build a worker without mining, our worker is left with nothing to do but jerk off. Turns wasted.

BTW, please provide reasoning in your posts from now on...that's kinda the point of this game...you know...discussion...

Edit: I realize you're Australian so for translation <term snipped>

There is no way of building the worker faster than we could research mining if we go mining first. There's no point not researching mining first, because there's nothing we need more urgently than mining anyway. Other than bronze working, which mining is the pre-req for. So we can safely assume that by the time the worker is ready we'll have mining.

Unless you have an alternate line of techs you think we should follow first? It will have a hard time competing with chopping, revealing copper, whipping and of course not delaying the worker through late mining though

PS We know what <term snipped> means here in Australia.

From my calculation, we can build 2 work boats, 2 warriors and a worker, and be working both fish and a gold by the end of turn 27 (starting from turn 0), with the first warrior built at turn 17 and bronze researched on turn 19.

That pretty much matches my calculations. What you've done would be my option E, with the modification of spending a turn finishing off the warrior before starting on the worker.

The only down side of that is we get noticably less commerce than some other methods, but I still think it might be better.

One option I'd like to consider is B modified for an earlier warrior, which is basically:
workboat -> grow+warrior -> worker -> (workboat/warriors).

An earlier warrior is good for exploration even if we don't need to worry about defending the capital.

Why? What do we need copper for immediately? Are you afraid someone will axe rush us? I think we can afford a tech or 2 before we go for BW.

I think we agree that the Workboat should be the first build. Then if we build a worker without mining, our worker is left with nothing to do but <term snipped>. Turns wasted.

BTW, please provide reasoning in your posts from now on...that's kinda the point of this game...you know...discussion...

Edit: I realize you're Australian so for translation <term snipped>

Because we also want Slavery ASAP. Mining > Bronze Working is the best tech path because,
It's too early to build a lighthouse, ruling out Sailing.
We don't need to hook up the gold right away for :), so the Wheel isn't necessary (although I would probably recommend it after Bronze)
We won't be working cottages at first since we have 2 gold tiles, so Pottery can be delayed a little.
There's no camp resources, so hunting isn't needed. Also, unless we meet Persia early, we won't want hunting since we won't be able to build warriors for cheap HR :)s.
Building wonders too early will hurt our all important REX, so no need for Masonry or Mysticism at first.


I think I covered all the options.

That pretty much matches my calculations. What you've done would be my option E, with the modification of spending a turn finishing off the warrior before starting on the worker.

The only down side of that is we get noticably less commerce than some other methods, but I still think it might be better.

One option I'd like to consider is B modified for an earlier warrior, which is basically:
workboat -> grow+warrior -> worker -> (workboat/warriors).

An earlier warrior is good for exploration even if we don't need to worry about defending the capital.

I don't think we really need the extra commerce at that point. We'll have the techs to improve our resources, and be able to whip. When we grow to size 4 and work the 2 gold, we can REX and still research quickly.

Also though, if we're going to use slavery eventually (and I think we will), then it is generally more efficient to revolt while you're waiting for a worker to improve a tile, or for a workboat or settler to travel. Basically, you will lose 1 turn globally at some point revolting to slavery, but when you do the workers are still working and units still moving. So choosing when to revolt is choosing when you want to get a free turn on all your units. This is why I revolt specifically while improving the gold in a couple of cases, as it's basically 8 commerce for nothing compared with revolting at a later time when you don't need the worker turns for anything.
You miss the fact that later on, we'll have more Workers that can work during a revolt. And while it's very likely that we'll want to use Slavery at some point, it's not guaranteed that we'll need it prior to another civic switch (e.g. Hereditary Rule, Organized Religion, or Representation). And a turn of anarchy is a turn of lost production and research. Thus we shouldn't be switching into Slavery, IMHO, until immediately prior to the turn we wish to use it. ;)

Excellent start, assuming its not an April Fool's joke. Haven't read the full thread yet. I jumped to the end when I feared this was a joke... :shifty:

You miss the fact that later on, we'll have more Workers that can work during a revolt. And while it's very likely that we'll want to use Slavery at some point, it's not guaranteed that we'll need it prior to another civic switch (e.g. Hereditary Rule, Organized Religion, or Representation). And a turn of anarchy is a turn of lost production and research. Thus we shouldn't be switching into Slavery, IMHO, until immediately prior to the turn we wish to use it. ;)

Even though later in the game there are more workers to complete their jobs in revolt wouldn't the losses in terms of research and hammers be greater due to the larger size of the city?

And with the proposal to get a GS asap and work both gold tiles there is a chance that we wont need slavery until a 2nd civic change is needed so combining them would be worthwhile.

P.S. Dave tried to wreck our fun by not knowing what he snipped, but he missed 1 :P

Thanks for all the replys. Some good logic there. Didnt think about slavery - with those 2 fish we could replenish population pretty quickly so slavery could be good.

An alternate tech route would be to start going for writing. So, while we build work boat(s) research prerequisite for writing (like the wheel or pottery), then while building the worker, research mining. I think writing will be nice for a library once we have those 2 gold hooked up.

PS. Didnt mean to write anything that would be "snipped" so my apologies if I offended anyone

Even though later in the game there are more workers to complete their jobs in revolt wouldn't the losses in terms of research and hammers be greater due to the larger size of the city?

And with the proposal to get a GS asap and work both gold tiles there is a chance that we wont need slavery until a 2nd civic change is needed so combining them would be worthwhile.

With 2 fish, why wouldn't we want to be whipping ASAP in our capital?

Thanks for all the replys. Some good logic there. Didnt think about slavery - with those 2 fish we could replenish population pretty quickly so slavery could be good.

An alternate tech route would be to start going for writing. So, while we build work boat(s) research prerequisite for writing (like the wheel or pottery), then while building the worker, research mining. I think writing will be nice for a library once we have those 2 gold hooked up.

That should be our 2nd priority. But Bronze is more immediately important.

Bronze should probably be our first priority (the combination of chops + potential Slavery + potential Copper is just too good), but Writing should certainly be high on the list too. Getting a Library and two Scientists running ASAP will be vital, and our Creative trait making Libraries half-price only makes things all the more sweet. :)

I could go either way, but I think if we go BW we should focus more on military builds after that so we can go conquer our first as victim early as possible.

Chops: I see 5 total forests in our fat cross. The 2 forest on a hill and the resource are obvious chops. The other 2 I'm not sure of since they dont have access to fresh water. Maybe it's better to put lumbermills there. What are you guys thinking we put there? Cottages?

Slavery: I could go either way on this one, but it seems like with all that food slavery is a pretty good choice. I like to switch 2 civics at once though so as to not waste another turn of anarchy.

Copper: Doesnt seem like we have it in our capital (due to having many other resources). So this would help for knowing where next to settle. Actually, I think Iron Working for this purpose would be better.

I dunno...half price librarys + 2 gold resources is hard to beat

Noticed this... hmmm

Settle in place
WB-Worker-Warrior-WB

Research:
- Wheel-Mining
- Hunting-AH-Writing
- BW

Researching Writing before BW will give us the time to build our cheap library to grow our first GS, while growing enough for the second settler.

I suppose our expansion will be forced West and North, being ice in the South.

I like to switch 2 civics at once though so as to not waste another turn of anarchy.

Sure, we need to take advantage of a 2 civics for any change. If possible.

Copper: Doesnt seem like we have it in our capital (due to having many other resources). So this would help for knowing where next to settle. Actually, I think Iron Working for this purpose would be better.

I dunno...half price librarys + 2 gold resources is hard to beatPlease remember this is an edited map, thus anything is possible.

I had some free time, so I made a little math (counting on my fingers).
While worker soon looks tasty, it isn't the best because we cannot work any gold before the fish, lest no grow.

So, I counted for workboat,workboat,worker.
First work phf until done (6T); then change pop to fish and build 2nd workboat; grow at 11T; work fish and phf and go on wb; workboat done at 15T; begin something,warrior perhaps,to wait for grow; at 18T build worker;worker done at 24T.
So, we have now 3 pop, 2 developed fish, 1 worker, half warrior, and amassed more then 350 commerce.

About research, after mining, wheel then BW. I know BW is more important than wheel
but here wheel is more urgent. We need 6th pop to work 2 fish, 2 gold, first phf and silk then 2 scientists. Not many chops here. And whip, right now what? The first 4 tiles are too good to lose,while temporary, their pop. To discover copper,sure; but not
so urgent IMHO, as only the seetler needs to know about.

Your reasoning about what to work is correct, but we must run some simulation on what gives us the best results.

BW is not a priority, since if we have it in BFC, great, otherwise we need to locate the copper only when we're almost done with the first settler.

If we consider writing a priority, with WHEEL as the only diversion, we'll gain a 25% research with our *cheap* library over any further tech.
Even the wheel can be discussed, depending on where we'll place the worker.

I can run some simulation reproducing the starting position, the i'll give my report.
We surely need a lot of MM.

Considering that we are not Industrious and don't have any stone we might want to use the chops for the Colossus and/or Great Lighthouse.

The prerequisite techs for the GL are Sailing and Masonry. We start with fishing, and plan to research mining so in the long term a research path might be Mining>BW>Masonry>Sailing, with Wheel somewhere in there? BW is also good because it enables Metal Casting for the Colossus.

Perhaps I'm just stating the obvious to the more advanced players, but this is just something thing to keep in mind for the future.

Because we also want Slavery ASAP. Mining > Bronze Working is the best tech path because,
1) It's too early to build a lighthouse, ruling out Sailing.
2) We don't need to hook up the gold right away for :), so the Wheel isn't necessary (although I would probably recommend it after Bronze)
3) We won't be working cottages at first since we have 2 gold tiles, so Pottery can be delayed a little.
4) There's no camp resources, so hunting isn't needed. Also, unless we meet Persia early, we won't want hunting since we won't be able to build warriors for cheap HR :)s.
5) Building wonders too early will hurt our all important REX, so no need for Masonry or Mysticism at first.
1) Agreed
2) True, but it's a waste of worker turns, mainly at Normal Speed being on a hill to mine and go back to build a road. 4 turns instead of 3.
3) after writing and BW. No whipping without granary. And we need those extra pop for an early Academy
4) Sure, but this shows we can do better :p Hunting is a prerequisite for AH and researching it will save roughly 1.5 turns on AH, making Hunting cost some 2.5 turns
5) Agreed


With 2 fish, why wouldn't we want to be whipping ASAP in our capital?See above. We want it at size 6, with library and granary. And possibly always a Scientist at work. Preferably 2.

Research:
- Wheel-Mining
- Hunting-AH-Writing
- BW
One point to note is that we shouldn't necessarily hurry after Hunting unless we have some resources which require a Camp, or know we're near another civ via land. This is because skipping Hunting leaves the option open to build Warriors, which will be very important if we're adopting Hereditary Rule. Of course, if we're near Persia then we have no choice but to get Hunting because we're going to need Spearmen.

Of course, the cheap research if we go Hunting before AH is tempting. BUT, if we meet another civ early (which we are probably likely to, given the map parameters), don't forget that we may be able to trade with them to backfill these early techs later.

About research, after mining, wheel then BW. I know BW is more important than wheel
but here wheel is more urgent. We need 6th pop to work 2 fish, 2 gold, first phf and silk then 2 scientists. Not many chops here. And whip, right now what? The first 4 tiles are too good to lose,while temporary, their pop. To discover copper,sure; but not
so urgent IMHO, as only the seetler needs to know about.
I agree with the whipping part - we can't afford not to work any of the 2 Fish and 2 Gold tiles once we have them up and running. Plus we'll want that Great Scientist ASAP. So we probably won't want to whip much (or at all) in the early game, since it'll hurt our research too much with this start.

That's an argument against Slavery though, not against Bronze Working. Personally I'm still in favour of early Bronze Working because of the potential Copper, and more importantly, the chops. I've always found early chopping to be immensely useful - especially if we want to try to nab the Great Lighthouse or some other early wonder.

BW is not a priority, since if we have it in BFC, great, otherwise we need to locate the copper only when we're almost done with the first settler.
But you forget that chops are a huge priority. Otherwise, our Worker will have nothing to do after hooking up the Golds. Moreover, without chops we won't have much of a shot at any early wonders we might want, and/or our Settler and other builds will be slowed down from what they could have been.

Considering that we are not Industrious and don't have any stone we might want to use the chops for the Colossus and/or Great Lighthouse.

The prerequisite techs for the GL are Sailing and Masonry. We start with fishing, and plan to research mining so in the long term a research path might be Mining>BW>Masonry>Sailing, with Wheel somewhere in there? BW is also good because it enables Metal Casting for the Colossus.

Perhaps I'm just stating the obvious to the more advanced players, but this is just something thing to keep in mind for the future.
Colossus is probably a bit late for us to aim towards right now. Metal Casting is a rather expensive tech; and anyway, the Colossus benefits aren't as good as the Great Lighthouse benefits. But I'd certainly agree that the Great Lighthouse would probably be an excellent wonder for us to grab. Not to mention an early Lighthouse would be great with our double Fish.

But you forget that chops are a huge priority. Otherwise, our Worker will have nothing to do after hooking up the Golds. Moreover, without chops we won't have much of a shot at any early wonders we might want, and/or our Settler and other builds will be slowed down from what they could have been.I forget nothing!
Our worker will road the path for the settler, then he can chop it, or he can chop the library with a great advantage, since every chopped hammer doubles for us!!!

I've tried some variations.
The best seems to be:
WB, research mining
start WB until size2, switch to worker, finish mining, start wheel
mine gold, work it for the last turn of the WB, then move to 2 fishes
Hunting (but i can see your point on that, so we can skip it) AH Writing, build 2 warriors, use the free one as a scout.

What if we have a 3rd seafood in the fog?
I must also compare the benefits of skipping the wheel until Writing and BW are researched.

But since mining will be for sure the first tech and we can know what we have in BFC only after the actual game start, i'll wait 'til then to run more accurate tests.

For now, i suppose we agree on WB first and mining first, so we're plenty of time to simulate.

It's really too soon to talk about the Colossus, but usually i never build it with a financial leader.
It gives +1gold for each water tile, but 3 instead of 2 is a +50%, 4 instead of 3 is a +33%.
You must add that to compensate the hammers invested, you must work lots of waters tiles.

Is a thing to build to negate it to the opponents, if you have nothing better to do. And possibly not in Capital.

I forget nothing!
Our worker will road the path for the settler, then he can chop it, or he can chop the library with a great advantage, since every chopped hammer doubles for us!!!
Sure, but only while building the Library. The bonus multiplier isn't carried over to any of the next builds. Still, it'd be great for getting out a quick Library.

What if we have a 3rd seafood in the fog?
That would be quite insane. :lol: But seriously, unless the other resource is a coastal Fish, I don't think we need to worry about it until we get to at least size 5. Certainly building more than two Work Boats before a Settler will probably not be as efficient as building the Settler before the third Work Boat. That's just a guess, mind you. Anyway, I think hoping for any more seafood resources might be a bit much. But we'll see. ;)

It's really too soon to talk about the Colossus, but usually i never build it with a financial leader.
It gives +1gold for each water tile, but 3 instead of 2 is a +50%, 4 instead of 3 is a +33%.
Actually, ocean tiles with a Financial leader without the Colossus give 1 commerce (not two). Ocean tiles with a Financial leader with the Colossus give 3 commerce (a +200% bonus). But otherwise, yes, your analysis is correct. I agree that the Colossus isn't a hugely important wonder, but it's extremely cheap and worth building if we get the chance. It's too soon to start thinking about it though.

You must add that to compensate the hammers invested, you must work lots of waters tiles.
Colossus is exceptionally cheap though, especially if you have Copper. Add to that that the Forge is a building you want anyway in pretty much every city, and it only makes it easier to build. To me, the main problem with the Colossus is it comes with an expensive tech (for the early game).

1) Agreed
2) True, but it's a waste of worker turns, mainly at Normal Speed being on a hill to mine and go back to build a road. 4 turns instead of 3.
3) after writing and BW. No whipping without granary. And we need those extra pop for an early Academy
4) Sure, but this shows we can do better :p Hunting is a prerequisite for AH and researching it will save roughly 1.5 turns on AH, making Hunting cost some 2.5 turns
5) Agreed


See above. We want it at size 6, with library and granary. And possibly always a Scientist at work. Preferably 2.

2- While it's a waste of worker turns, it's not always beneficial to avoid wasting them.
3- Or, we could whip a granary and the library, and then work the high commerce once we've got the infrastructure up from whipping.
4- I'd take the 2.5 extra turns on AH to be able to continue building warriors.

Maybe we should discuss what our priority should be, the Great Lighthouse, or a great scientist? I see both of these options as very beneficial for us. There is no doubt that our capital will be a powerful research city, and an academy would be a huge boost to our already considerable early game tech rate. We're also certain to have a number of coastal cities, so that we can take advantage of our dikes late game. The Great Lighthouse would give these cities an added bonus all the way up to the time we can build dikes.

The Great Lighthouse however can be taken by other civs if we aren't agressive enough in constructing it. Therefore I would urge an agressive push for this wonder, a scientist can be developed afterwards.

Yeah, I agree... we don't have any land food resources, so starting with the Work Boat will be a good idea. The question is, after the first Work Boat, do we go with another Work Boat -> Worker, or go straight to a Worker -> Work Boat? My guess is that the latter will be preferable, since we want to get the Gold hooked up ASAP.

So I'm tentatively voting for:

Work Boat -> Worker -> Work Boat at the present. When I have some time I'll do some tests to confirm whether this is the best opening.

If we haven't started the actions yet I think this line seems good to me.

I actually contemplated moving the settler off the hill and up one square to take full advantage of hills for production. That would take us away from that nice shiny gold though. Building a work boat first will also allow our city to grow and use more tiles.

Edit:
I worked on the save a little trying out to see what I could do. By the date on the save I got both gold and fishes hooked up and the worker ready to start cranking out Cottages. The city had just finished building a Granary and was at level four, though perhaps it should have built a settler first.

I also teched The Wheel, Mining, Hunting, BW and Pottery. I didn't revolt to Slavery.

Maybe we should discuss what our priority should be, the Great Lighthouse, or a great scientist? I see both of these options as very beneficial for us. There is no doubt that our capital will be a powerful research city, and an academy would be a huge boost to our already considerable early game tech rate. We're also certain to have a number of coastal cities, so that we can take advantage of our dikes late game. The Great Lighthouse would give these cities an added bonus all the way up to the time we can build dikes.

The Great Lighthouse however can be taken by other civs if we aren't agressive enough in constructing it. Therefore I would urge an agressive push for this wonder, a scientist can be developed afterwards.

I'd rather focus on REX. Land = power.

So then we should get a second city founded by 2600-2500 bc ? In that case it's the rivers and coast we should make sure to found near. If this is a balanced map I am sure iron, copper, and horses are near.

I'd rather focus on REX. Land = power.

I second this.

In fact, although I like the idea of a relatively quick library & academy, I don't think either should be done before the first settler. Maybe that is a consensus view but there's been a lot more talk about libraries and specialists than there have been about when our first settler is going to be finished.

And then there is the question of when we should build the first settler. Obviously that depends on what is outside the fog, but I would rather see us build it sooner than later. at worst we could make use of the plentiful forests surrounding our capital.

Edit: Alphashard, somehow i missed your post. Are you proposing workboat -> worker -> workboat -> settler?

Edit: Alphashard, somehow i missed your post. Are you proposing workboat -> worker -> workboat -> settler?

I think that would be a good work order there, it should get a Settler out in the mid 2000's bc. It will take a little while to get to Writing and Libraries so I am sure we'll probably have three cities going before any libraries start being built.

Should we bother with Scouts? Actually huts are off aren't they? So we can pretty much forget teching Hunting for awhile. Unless were worried that Cyrus is near us.

Warriors to fog bust are a necessity.

I actually contemplated moving the settler off the hill and up one square to take full advantage of hills for production. That would take us away from that nice shiny gold though. Building a work boat first will also allow our city to grow and use more tiles.
You don't start taking advantage of that one extra hill until about 100 turns into the game, though (if not more). Thus it's FAR better to have the extra 1 hammer per turn for the whole game than get an extra 3 hammers per turn a hundred or more turns down the track.

You don't start taking advantage of that one extra hill until about 100 turns into the game, though (if not more). Thus it's FAR better to have the extra 1 hammer per turn for the whole game than get an extra 3 hammers per turn a hundred or more turns down the track.Even if less than 100 turns, you'll lose the 2nd gold.
I suppose we'll switch to Bureau ASAP and this will be a huge loss.

Settle in place
work boat
mining

this is the task for the early 5 turns.

To discuss what to do after this we must know at least our BFC and the closest surroundings.

I suppose the active player will be LP for those 5 turns.
Is he officially our (fearless) Leader?
Do we need to vote or else?

work boat
mining

this is the task for the early 5 turns.

To discuss what to do after this we must know at least our BFC and the closest surroundings.


That's true, there isn't much else we can aim for without knowing the lay of the land first. The only other thing I would add is that I would be thinking about BW due to opening visibility on copper
lots of forests nearby, even if they aren't in BFC

BW won't be ignored we just need prioritize our techs and builds. Should we start a thread for who is going to start this and when do we start?

My proposal is:

Settle in place
build WB
research mining

I suppose we all agree on the above. If not, please post.

Once the first turn is played, we'll know all the BFC and more, given that the warrior is 2N of the settler and can go N, NE or NW to reveal more. Sure a 3rd WB can arrive later (long after the first Settler) if there's more seafood, but is pointless discuss now.

After that i'll try more tests to find the optimal path for research and builds until 2000 BC or so.

We can define a short-mid term strategy before mining is finished and a mid-long term strategy after BW.
The big plan will be discussed once we'll know more about the place we are.

I agree to that early plan, that will cover 6 turns of the game, during which time we'll gain more information about our surroundings. Whichever way we end up going that start plan will lay a strong foundation for us.

My proposal is:

Settle in place
build WB
research mining

I suppose we all agree on the above. If not, please post.



I also agree with this initial course of action. (Especially since both my test games started this way ;))

I also agree that REXing might be a priority. I am almost certain this will be a priority if we are anywhere near Team AMAZON. What else would Cyrus be used for but REX?

I think that would be a good work order there, it should get a Settler out in the mid 2000's bc. It will take a little while to get to Writing and Libraries so I am sure we'll probably have three cities going before any libraries start being built.

Should we bother with Scouts? Actually huts are off aren't they? So we can pretty much forget teching Hunting for awhile. Unless were worried that Cyrus is near us.

I have two concerns with the WB > Worker > WB opening followed immediately by building a settler:

1. Early settlers are nice, but surely we'll need warriors, if for nothing else but to escort the settler.

2. Getting out the first WB quickly means working the PFH tile, which means stagnation. Following that with a Worker and a Settler so soon doesn't leave much time for population growth (depending what tiles are worked for the second WB).

Again, it's impossible to say what the best course of action is until the game is underway, but I'd think we'd want early pop growth both to work the gold tiles and for whipping in an emergency (supposing we research BW early).

Which way do we move the starting warrior anyway? Considering it looks like all forest tiles bleeding out of the fog there doesn't seem any advantage to going onto the hill. So either NE or NW.

Settle in place
work boat
mining
Sounds like a plan to me. That just leaves discussing the movement of the Warrior for these initial turns.

I suppose the active player will be LP for those 5 turns.
Is he officially our (fearless) Leader?
Do we need to vote or else?
I'm happy to act as "leader"/turn player for the initial turns, unless anyone else is also keen on the job? :)

I also agree that REXing might be a priority. I am almost certain this will be a priority if we are anywhere near Team AMAZON. What else would Cyrus be used for but REX?
Uh... rushing a nearby rival with Immortals? ;)

I have two concerns with the WB > Worker > WB opening followed immediately by building a settler:

1. Early settlers are nice, but surely we'll need warriors, if for nothing else but to escort the settler.

2. Getting out the first WB quickly means working the PFH tile, which means stagnation. Following that with a Worker and a Settler so soon doesn't leave much time for population growth (depending what tiles are worked for the second WB).
Those are valid concerns, but I think our plan is still the optimal way of playing the opening. Getting all our main tiles (2 Fish and 2 Gold) up and running ASAP is key. Don't worry though - I'm sure we'll get several of those Warriors built as we grow to size 4-5 prior to building our first Settler. ;)

Which way do we move the starting warrior anyway? Considering it looks like all forest tiles bleeding out of the fog there doesn't seem any advantage to going onto the hill. So either NE or NW.
My vote goes for NW at the moment, although it's really fairly arbitrary to me.

Uh... rushing a nearby rival with Immortals? ;)

Hee. I should have been clearer. To me, Immortal rushes also count as REXing. :D

Sounds like a plan to me. That just leaves discussing the movement of the Warrior for these initial turns.


I'm happy to act as "leader"/turn player for the initial turns, unless anyone else is also keen on the job? :)

Excellent! You get my vote of approval.

EDIT: oops

I'm available for playing turns as needed. I'm ok with LP as well.

Forgive a newbie.

I'm OK too on actively play turns.

This won't mean anything else.

LP is the captain or the Team Leader, or el Generalissimo :p even if he doesn't play, right?

Yeah he is I believe he did name the team afterall.

Heh... although just because I was the founder of the team doesn't mean I necessarily have to be "The Leader" for all eternity. :D But certainly, I'm happy to act as the general "team leader" where it's required, unless a lot of people are unhappy with that - in which case, majority rules. ;)

Really, as I see it though, the "team leader" doesn't really have much more power than the average team member. Certainly my opinions count no more than each of the rest of yours, and neither do my votes. Personally, I see the "team leader" as more of an administrative position - e.g. posting in the main forum with our team votes on the game options, making sure threads are set up and maintained properly, and making sure we function well together as a team. That's pretty much it - I certainly have no delusions of grandeur or anything like that. :p

You miss the fact that later on, we'll have more Workers that can work during a revolt. And while it's very likely that we'll want to use Slavery at some point, it's not guaranteed that we'll need it prior to another civic switch (e.g. Hereditary Rule, Organized Religion, or Representation). And a turn of anarchy is a turn of lost production and research. Thus we shouldn't be switching into Slavery, IMHO, until immediately prior to the turn we wish to use it. ;)

You're quite right. The main reason though as I said was for a fair comparison point - although it's probably not optimal to revolt when I do in those cases, it seemed to me less of a distortion of the comparison than some options finishing in slavery and others not.

Heh... although just because I was the founder of the team doesn't mean I necessarily have to be "The Leader" for all eternity. :D But certainly, I'm happy to act as the general "team leader" where it's required, unless a lot of people are unhappy with that - in which case, majority rules. ;)

Really, as I see it though, the "team leader" doesn't really have much more power than the average team member. Certainly my opinions count no more than each of the rest of yours, and neither do my votes. Personally, I see the "team leader" as more of an administrative position - e.g. posting in the main forum with our team votes on the game options, making sure threads are set up and maintained properly, and making sure we function well together as a team. That's pretty much it - I certainly have no delusions of grandeur or anything like that. :p

I think the main qualification needed for "team leader" is enthusiasm and time, and you appear to have more than enough of both of those. You're definately at least as qualified as anyone else for the position and probably more, so I don't see any reason to change things.

I'm happy to fill in as turn player also by the way, if you want a break or are away or whatever.

As for the early turns, it looks like we can at least play out the first 6 turns only having to vote on warrior movements, as it seems workboat first is a pretty clear winner. Afterwards, I still think:
Workboat -> [optional grow + warrior] -> worker
and
Workboat -> workboat -> 1 pop whip worker (with possibly an earlier warrior snuck in somewhere)
are the two main options, differing in more commerce for the first and more hammers for the second.

I also still think we need the hammers more than the commerce. The hammers will help us catch up in commerce eventually with probably earlier settlers, whereas I don't see us urgently needing the few extra commerce points for much early on. I think we'll be limited by hammers much more than commerce early on in this start. Case in point this early library we seem to want, I think we're more likely to need to delay it because we're too busy building workers/settlers/units than because we haven't researched writing yet.

I agree settle in place and WB as first build. I think we should research something before mining - again since we wont have a worker yet by the time mining is done. I like the idea of an early wonder as well, but not at the expense of REX. I havent tried any test games or anything...just some thoughts, but would like to try them out on a test game.

We need to come up with an overarching strategy and then execute short term, long term, builds, techs, wonders, etc. based off that.

Strategy 1 - No Wonders
Build order
WB
Worker
WB
Warrior
Warrior
Settler (would be nice to have BW so we can chop)
Library

Tech Order
The Wheel (prerequisite for Writing)
Mining (to hook up the gold...worker should be done +/- a couple turns)
BW (while the worker is hooking up the gold)
Writing (hopefully can time this to get writing on the same turn that the settler is done so that the next build can be the library)

Strategy 2 - Great Lighthouse
Build Order
WB
Worker
WB
Warrior
Warrior
Settler (would be nice to have BW so we can chop)
Worker (since we probably wont have Masonry needed for Great Lighthouse)
Great Lighthouse

Tech Order
Sailing (prerequisite for Great Lighthouse)
Mining
BW (chop some to help with Great Lighthouse)
The Wheel
Masonry


This might be too long of a path to allow us to get the great lighthouse.

It's way too early to think about building wonders.

I disagree about not needing early commerce. Having extra commerce in the begining could help us with a tech lead. If we build a workboat first that will take care of food and getting a gold mine will give us hammers and commerce. We can gett both golds and fish hooked up by 2500 bc. We may have to pick some tiles for workshops if we don't have enough forest or hills in range.

I disagree about not needing early commerce. Having extra commerce in the begining could help us with a tech lead. If we build a workboat first that will take care of food and getting a gold mine will give us hammers and commerce. We can gett both golds and fish hooked up by 2500 bc. We may have to pick some tiles for workshops if we don't have enough forest or hills in range.

REX will help us more than a little bit of extra commerce.

At the moment I'm inclined more towards fast expansion with this start than claiming early wonders. But if some early wonders are still unclaimed after we've built our first 2-3 Settlers, we should definitely consider making a shot at one or two of them.

REX will help us more than a little bit of extra commerce.

I'll throw my hat into this ring. A common axiom in the strategy boards is that in the early game, production is your main concern, even to the point that the first city you want to settle should have good production ability (even if it will turn into a commerce / hybrid city in the mid-game). I'd rather have an extra worker or several extra warriors than get bronze working a turn earlier.

Don't we need commerce to even expand? How long is that science slider glint to stay at 100 with out commerce?

The slider doesn't need to stay at 100%. As long as we aren't losing money at 0% :science: we can still research through specialists.

Working two fish two gold tiles at size four gives us a whopping 20 commerce per turn, plus the 8 from the palace, plus the 1 from the city tile. We'll be working these at ~turn 30. Our capital will, by itself, keep us running easily above 50% science for at least 4 more cities.

There's no need to worry about commerce too early, when we could be REXing.

Game has just gone up, so I logged in and completed all the moves that were agreed so far:

1. Settle in place
2. Start building Work Boat, working plains-hill forest to the south
3. Start researching Mining

No more resources discovered upon settling, sorry... although what we have is more than enough. ;)

The only other thing left to decide before we end the turn is where to move the Warrior. Let's come to a consensus there so we can get going. Everyone, vote for either NW or NE. :)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=248609&stc=1&d=1270523543

Whatever direction the numpad 7 is.

East and west inevitably confuses me. :(

I vote for NE -- in other words, the 'Or Here?' sign :)

To justify my choice of 7 instead of 9, our borders expand in a couple of turns anyway which will show us the coast anyway. Going inland gives us greater potential to uncover a good site for our 2nd city.

Incidentally, I also vote NW ("here" sign), moving inland.

I vote to move inland. A 3rd workboat or early galley/trireme can do coastal exploration.

The only other thing left to decide before we end the turn is where to move the Warrior. Let's come to a consensus there so we can get going. Everyone, vote for either NW or NE. :)


I vote NW/7/"Here"

We want to know the overall shape of the land first and the details can wait. The best way to do that is to head away from the two known coastlines to the south and east. We also want to find our neighbours as soon as possible, and again the best way to find them is to head inland.

We can hug the coast to search for seafood later, it's much more important to find the good land fist.

I vote for NE.

Azzaman were apparently talking about the same thing.

I also vote for moving inland or NW.

Edit: a couple of questions from a newbie:

1. Are we going to continue to use this thread to discuss the early game/moves, or will new threads be started for various decisions? It might be easier to have one thread to follow the game, but I'm not sure what the usual protocol is in democracy games.

2. Are saves ever available for team members for inspection? I am guessing that the answer is "no" so teams cannot play ahead, but maybe we can keep a running game log to keep track of what we've done? I am also guessing this is probably done, but again, I'm not sure what is standard practice.

Thanks!

NW (7) probably NE next move (turn), to max the fogbusting.

Not great surprises from the screenie, i'll go on with my tests soon.

This is going to seem like a stupid question by why is north (8) not being considered? As far as I can tell north will reveal the same as north-east (9) but leave the warrior in a better position to handle the result of the move.

I understand that north will not result in any better views from the hill due to the forests but it will still allow for fogbusting to tell what the eastern water is doing.

Out of the 2 options I believe North-west (7) is better than north-east (9) as an exploration workboat will cover the sea tiles soon enough. However I think that north (8) is better than both because it allows us to head inland more easily without the question of the coast being left unanswered. North-west (7) leaves the coast completely unknown.

So, does that make sense? I'm happy to be wrong but would just love to know why I'm wrong as north (8) hasn't even been considered.

True, moving north wouldn't be a bad idea either. That way we'd see if the coast was heading off to the east (signifying a larger continent), or closing in towards the west (signifying a probable peninsula or island).

Generally, it's best to try and move along the diagonals.

Generally, it's best to try and move along the diagonals.

I agree but in this situation I'm not so sure. If we head off to the north-west (7) we are heading into an opening without revealing land form because both coasts are left a mystery. Its going to result in either our warrior back tracking or being left unexplored until another unit can discover it.

North-west (7):
Reveals 4 tiles
Allows fogbusting on 5

North (8):
Reveals 3 tiles
Allows fogbusting on 5

It allows for knowledge of the coast with only 1 tile less being revealed.

I'm sticking with NW. I don't care so much which way the coast goes one or two squares north of the capital, it's at best only interesting to know what happens to it in 5-10 tiles time, and in that case there's plenty of time to head back to it while exploring inland a bit first. I want to know where the nearest other coastline is to the NW, that tells us much more than following the ones we know.

Looking at it from an information theory perspective, we already have some reasonable guesses as to what's happening N and E, while we've got no idea what's NW (and I'm not just talking a few tiles here but more broadly). So heading NW is giving us more new information rather than confirming old information. Or to put it another way moving NW will knock out a larger number of likely hypothetical maps than moving N or NE, as there's more possibilities for what we might see that way.

Generally, it's best to try and move along the diagonals.That's why i voted for NW. I'm thinking to go NE next turn.

I vote NW/7/"Here"

I'm sticking with NW. I don't care so much which way the coast goes one or two squares north of the capital, it's at best only interesting to know what happens to it in 5-10 tiles time, and in that case there's plenty of time to head back to it while exploring inland a bit first. I want to know where the nearest other coastline is to the NW, that tells us much more than following the ones we know.

Looking at it from an information theory perspective, we already have some reasonable guesses as to what's happening N and E, while we've got no idea what's NW (and I'm not just talking a few tiles here but more broadly). So heading NW is giving us more new information rather than confirming old information. Or to put it another way moving NW will knock out a larger number of likely hypothetical maps than moving N or NE, as there's more possibilities for what we might see that way.
I like the logic, North-West (7) is my vote.

Looks like NW is majority rule. *heh*

Yep, indeed. :D

Tried to log in to complete our move, but the game seems to be down at the moment. Hopefully it'll be back up again soon.

Funny thing is, I almost went to complete our move and would not have noticed the game is down for others since I just use localhost.

Discussion shifted to this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9076304#post9076304). :)