EDITED ON 9/27:

Shalom everyone!

Since Israel has not been included in the release of Civ 5, I am asking if there is a SERIOUS developer that would like to create a Israel mod?

I speak Hebrew and supplied the Hebrew sounds (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8626) for the Esnav's Israel mod for Civ 4, and, I would be happy to create and supply the Hebrew language sounds for a Civ 5 mod for Israel.

So, with that being said, name what you guys think should be included in a Israel mod with what Civ 5 is capable to offer?

1. Leaders?

2. Unique Buildings?

3. Unique Units?

4. Other ideas?

This thread will probably be the most sought after threads for developers seeing that a Israel civilization was one of the most sought after mods for Civ 4.

My ideas so far, including the ideas from those in this thread and from the Civ 4 mod...

1. Leaders?

David Ben Gurion (Charismatic, Organized)
Solomon (Spiritual, Industrious)
David (Expansive, Spiritual)
Moses (Protective, Spiritual)
Samson (Aggressive, Charismatic)
Joshua (Aggressive, Expansive)
Deborah (creative "Song of Deborah" and organized "she judged her people")

2. Unique Buildings?

Kotel (rep. Walls)
Cistern (rep. Aqueduct -- cheaper to build & increased city defense)
Tower of David (rep. Castle)
Mossad (rep. Intelligence Agency)
Sukkah (rep. Colosseum)
Beth Midrash (rep. library)
Beth Din (rep. Courthouse)
Beth Cholim (rep. Hospital)

3. Unique Units?

Maccabee (rep. Swordsman)
Magach (rep. Modern Armor)
Shayetet 13 (rep. Marine)
Palmach (rep. Infantry)
Maryanu (rep. Chariot)
Merkava (Replacing Modern Armour, Has +1 Speed and +5 Strength)
Peltist(Replacing Archer, has a bonus vs. Melee units)

4. Other ideas?

National Symbols:
Star of David
Manorah
Shofar
Torah Scroll
Unique Trait: Promised Land, decreases unhappiness created from war.
Farm is called Kibbutz

Cities:
Jerusalem (Capital)
BeerSheva
Tel Aviv
Hebron
Jericho
Bethlehem
Rishon Lezion
Metsada
Haifa
Elat
Ashkelon
Ashdod
Safed
Tiberias
Kiriat Shmona
Ceasaria
Natanya
Bat Yam
Holon
Petah Tikvah
Lod
Hadera
and many more...

Are you aiming here for an ancient representation of the civilization?

Leader: Solomon (David?)

UU: ???

UB: Synagogue

Are you aiming here for an ancient representation of the civilization?

Whatever you think, this thread is going to be a resource for those that want to create a Israel mod for Civ 5. If you can, go through the list of 4 questions and tell everyone what you think. :)

Whatever you think, this thread is going to be a resource for those that want to create a Israel mod for Civ 5. If you can, go through the list of 4 questions and tell everyone what you think. :)

Unfortunately I am far too ignorant of the nation's history to answer the questions :) Although I think an ancient representation of the civilization would probably better reflect their historical influence.

Inb4 Jesus as Hebrew leader.

Leader: Solomon (David?)

UU: ???

UB: Synagogue

If the naming of religious buildings is limited, then yes, I think synagogue should be included. In Civ 4, synagogue became a religious building option upon a city being converted to Judaism.

Why don't we wait until we know more about Civ5 before we start developing mods?

Why don't we wait until we know more about Civ5 before we start developing mods?

Please stay on topic, as I said in the original post, this thread is because we are pretty much 99.9 percent sure that a Israel civ will not be included in the release. Getting taking about a mod now will help prepare us to make a great Israel mod! :)

Do you have any ideas to contribute?

I think he meant we would be wise to know what's possible to mod in Civ 5 before making plans that are too ambitious.

In any case, I've wanted to see some lesser known Hebrew figures as leaders such as some of the Judges, Samson and Gideon. I'd imagine Samson would maybe be Aggressive and Protective. Caleb or Joshua might have been nomadic and spiritual, but I don't remember what other traits there are. King Manasseh, Ahab and Josiah all crossed my mind also.

A unique research could possibly be Gleaning, which would allow better food production, prevent starvation (due to poisoning or otherwise) or do something similar to a unique granary. Another possible unique building could be Solomon's Temple. Maybe the unique festivals could occur on certain turns and offer bonuses. That would be a cool yet maybe hard to implement way to make the Israelites interesting and different to play as. Another unique building could be a 'Refuge' that prevented rioting and added peace to the city.

The units mentioned sound good. Maybe they could have a special promotion called 'Krav Maga Training' that gives them a disarming bonus and an enemy misses an attack. Again, not sure how that would work, but it's an idea.

I somewhat hope Civ 5 goes away with unique buildings since they always rather irritated me.

Maybe it will. I was just offering ideas based on what I know from Civ 4.

Maybe it will. I was just offering ideas based on what I know from Civ 4.

Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression I was picking on you personally or anything :P

Sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression I was picking on you personally or anything :P

No worries, I didn't think you were.

I think he meant we would be wise to know what's possible to mod in Civ 5 before making plans that are too ambitious.

In any case, I've wanted to see some lesser known Hebrew figures as leaders such as some of the Judges, Samson and Gideon. I'd imagine Samson would maybe be Aggressive and Protective. Caleb or Joshua might have been nomadic and spiritual, but I don't remember what other traits there are. King Manasseh, Ahab and Josiah all crossed my mind also.

Good ideas, I threw up Samson and Joshua in the main list for leader.

Maccabee (rep. Swordsman)

just so you know the macabees were a family of people who helped overthrow the selucids so making them a unique unit would be like making genghis khan the unique unit for mongolia.

just so you know the macabees were a family of people who helped overthrow the selucids so making them a unique unit would be like making genghis khan the unique unit for mongolia.

You are right and wrong....


"The name Maccabee[7] is sometimes seen used as a synonym for the entire Hasmonean Dynasty, but the Maccabees proper were Judah Maccabee and his four brothers. The name Maccabee was a personal epithet of Judah, and the later generations were not his direct descendants. Although there is no definitive explanation of what the term means, one suggestion is that the name derives from the Aramaic maqqaba, "the hammer", in recognition of his ferocity in battle.[8] It is also possible that the name Maccabee is an acronym for the Torah verse "Mi chamocha ba'elim YHWH", "Who is like unto thee among the mighty, O Lord!"[9]"


So, while the Macabees were a family, it wasn't literally one family that overthrew the Seleucids, it was a joint effort...


"The Maccabees (Hebrew: מכבים:) or מקבים, Makabim or Maqabim; Greek Μακκαβαῖοι, /makav'εï/) were a Jewish rebel army who liberated parts of the Land of Israel from the rule of the Seleucid Empire. They founded the Hasmonean dynasty, which ruled from 164 BCE to 63 BCE, reasserting the Jewish religion, expanding the boundaries of Israel and reducing the influence of Hellenism."


We see the name carries a broader meaning than just the name of Genghis Khan. Maccabean rule, revolt, ect.

Well i could create a couple of jewish buildings, since essentially they have byzantine architecture :)

Also to clarify, the Maccabean armies were mainly sword fighters, as this was the main weapon of choice during their time.

Thanks for the imformation but i still think those other choices you mentioned are much better choices I think I would most like to see Maryanus

Edit: also mangoelephant jews don't worship jesus. were fine with him but we don't believe he was the messiah. this is the main differance between judaism and christianity

Well i could create a couple of jewish buildings, since essentially they have byzantine architecture :)

I saw your artwork, very nice!

Thanks for the imformation but i still think those other choices you mentioned are much better choices I think I would most like to see Maryanus

Edit: also mangoelephant jews don't worship jesus. were fine with him but we don't believe he was the messiah. this is the main differance between judaism and christianity

They are all just ideas right now. Thanks for the feedback. :)

I saw your artwork, very nice!

Thank you :)

I somewhat hope Civ 5 goes away with unique buildings since they always rather irritated me.

Why? 5

Why? 5

It just seems pretty pointless. With UUs, you actually encounter them when fighting other civilizations, but with unique buildings it's something you only really encounter when you come to play those civs. I'd prefer development time goes into something else rather than a bunch of buildings that I will probably never encounter.

It's not like it's the biggest problem in the world and I'm not all that fussed. But you know. If you could fit in a couple of cool new global buildings and techs into the world at the expense of unique buildings I'd be happy.

Would you happen to have pics (preferably isometric, but others may do as well) of famous/interesting looking synagogues for me to model? :)
I am currently making the industrial era of my greek set, and the jewish element in post balkan wars, pre ww2 Greece was considerable, so i might include one there ;)

Thanks for the imformation but i still think those other choices you mentioned are much better choices I think I would most like to see Maryanus

Edit: also mangoelephant jews don't worship jesus. were fine with him but we don't believe he was the messiah. this is the main differance between judaism and christianity

Well the Jews at the time called him their king, so he is a "leader", Messiah or not.

Well the Jews at the time called him their king, so he is a "leader", Messiah or not.

As the story goes, it's not the Jews who called him king, but Jesus who claimed to be the Messiah, which the Romans mocked by calling him "King of the Jews". Pilate inscribed this on his cross as a way of mocking the Jews, as well. The Jews asked the title to be changed, Pilate refused.

If you believe the Bible, anyway.

As the story goes, it's not the Jews who called him king, but Jesus who claimed to be the Messiah, which the Romans mocked by calling him "King of the Jews". Pilate inscribed this on his cross as a way of mocking the Jews, as well. The Jews asked the title to be changed, Pilate refused.

If you believe the Bible, anyway.

That wasn't Pilate, that was the jerks called Legionaries Praetorium

Inb4 Jesus as Hebrew leader.

huh? .

Unfortunately I am far too ignorant of the nation's history to answer the questions :) Although I think an ancient representation of the civilization would probably better reflect their historical influence.

yeah cause new Israel is lame

Oh Lord.....

So, with that being said, name what you guys think should be included in a Israel mod?

1. Leaders?

2. Unique Buildings?

3. Unique Units?

4. Other ideas?[/QUOTE]

as leader i suggest the three patriarchs: Abraham, Jacob and Isaac! and maybe Saul hes one of the three kings who ruled the united kingdom of the twelve tribes!

Please keep the discussion civil(ized)

there aren't any civs in civ 4 with a building that replaces the intelligence agency, so the mossad would actually be pretty cool. the macabee would be a pretty cool unit, but maybe they should replace something other than the swordsman, since there's already tons of things that do.
but anyway, the leaders for civ 5 are going to be different than in civ 4, so i'd hold off on traits. maybe they could specialize in something religious-based, though?

...maybe they could specialize in something religious-based, though?

No religion n civ5 either

It's probable, then, it will be like CIII, with generic 'cathedrals' and 'temples'. Hence the synagogue.

A serious mod would be Ancient Israel.

For leaders I'd suggest: (1) Deborah: creative (Song of Deborah) and organized (she judged her people); and (2) David: creative (Psalms) and militaristic (fought many wars). If you wanted a later leader, maybe Yohanan Hycarnus or Shimon Bar Kochba

Buildings: cistern (replaces aqueduct -- cheaper to build & increased city defense). That is assuming you want a non-religious building that actually reflected Ancient Israel. The Israelite cisterns were one of the core factors that made Israelite cities so tough to conquer. They could hold enough water to last years.

Units: Maccabbee/Zealot. For a twist, I'd make them a swordsman that are 30% stronger WITHIN national borders, but just ordinary swordsmen in neutral or enemy territory.

Cities: stick to Ancient Israel. Jerusalem, Hebron, Beer Sheva, Shehem, Dan, Masada etc.

Great ideas coming in, I have added some of them to my list in #2 post.

I like the idea of centering around a Ancient Israel mod also, but what would we considered ancient Israel? Up until the destruction of the second Temple?

I do think that modern Israel elements should be included so that more changes could have an effect as the game progresses in time.

I think that the mod should focus on ancient israel (no mossad, Ben Gurion, etc.). I think that Solomon and david are necessary for the kings, Samson, Osniel ben Kenaz is nice (for those of you who don't know him, he was the first of the judges), but not absolutely necessary, I agree Deborah should be in. Include Judah Maccabee to represent the Hasmoneans. I made an Israel mod for civ 4 BtS, so I guess I could help.

Here's a couple of ideas for leaders.

Herod (Industrious, Spiritual)

Barabbas (Aggressive, Charismatic)

Josephus ( Philosophical, Protective)

Come to think of it, if religions are implemented in some way, the UU could even be the Patriarch. This unit would be able to cross cultural borders without declaring war and has a 100% chance of establishing Judaism in any city, friendly or rival. This can only be built if the person is Jewish, though, but can spread it even if something like Theocracy is in effect.

I don't think that Judaism had such a power of spreading, it was a very minor and closed religion under the hellenistic and roman empires. Christianity was a sect of it, and rose for different reasons. The original judaism couldnt have had such an impact.

I really hope they never put Israel in any of the releases unless its as a city-state (Jerusalem)...

I really hope they never put Israel in any of the releases unless its as a city-state (Jerusalem)...

Every mod that has been made has had Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, so I imagine that if Israel is included in a official Civ release that Jerusalem would be the capital city.

Stick with an actual Leader. I can't believe some of the ideas thrown out. David or Solomon. Also, you're wasting your effort discussing UB and UU and Traits. We dont even know how Civ 5 is set up - rumor is they are doing away with traits and who knows about the other stuff.

No religion n civ5 either

maybe. it's not in there in the same way as in civ 4, but that doesn't mean it's not in there at all.

Every mod that has been made has had Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, so I imagine that if Israel is included in a official Civ release that Jerusalem would be the capital city.


Why shouldn't it be? The only other possible candidate would be Hebron, but that's like a %0.0001 chance. Isn't Jerusalem the obvious choice?


Here's a couple of ideas for leaders.

Herod (Industrious, Spiritual)

Barabbas (Aggressive, Charismatic)

Josephus ( Philosophical, Protective)


Well... I understand Herod (sort of), but, and please excuse my ignorance, but who's Barabbas (is he some guy from the Bible or something?), and Josephus wasn't a leader of the nation, he was just a priest who happened to write history (if I'm wrong, please correct me).


I don't think that Judaism had such a power of spreading, it was a very minor and closed religion under the hellenistic and roman empires. Christianity was a sect of it, and rose for different reasons. The original judaism couldnt have had such an impact.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't jews about %10 of the Roman Empire at some point?


I really hope they never put Israel in any of the releases unless its as a city-state (Jerusalem)...


Well, I understand why they won't put them in (political correctness), but why don't you want them to?


If I was wrong about anything, please tell me. I am Jewish, after all.

Barabbas was supposedly a criminal that was pardoned so the mob could be satisfied with Jesus getting impaled in his place. Doesn't make sense for a leader, I don't think, anyway.

Why shouldn't it be? The only other possible candidate would be Hebron, but that's like a %0.0001 chance. Isn't Jerusalem the obvious choice

I think you misunderstood me. I'm pointing out the fact that everyone already assumes and believes that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, and that is why Jerusalem has been included in all the mods as the capital.

I'm Jewish also, living in Israel. :) מתי אתה תעשה עליה?

Josephus wasn't a leader of the nation, he was just a priest who happened to write history (if I'm wrong, please correct me).

Josephus was a milltary leader of isreal when romans invaded at some point(not sure when) he won a lot of key battles with the romans but in the end they lost(it was inevitable) but he is mostly known for betraying the other leaders of isreal and getting them all killed by romans so he would survive. Nuada might have meant another josephus though lot of them in jewish history.

Oh. K.

EDIT: Set, according to what you wrote on another thread, you are 12. Like me. Why do you have such knowledge for a little kid? I read a lot. You?

Yeah i do read a lot( a lot lot) also i am jewish so my knowledge of isreal is pretty good.

Why are we discussing TRAITS THAT ONLY BELONG TO CIV4???

Barabbas was supposedly a criminal that was pardoned so the mob could be satisfied with Jesus getting impaled in his place. Doesn't make sense for a leader, I don't think, anyway.
IIRC Barabbas was a murderer
I think you misunderstood me. I'm pointing out the fact that everyone already assumes and believes that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, and that is why Jerusalem has been included in all the mods as the capital.

I'm Jewish also, living in Israel. :) מתי אתה תעשה עליה?
Maybe Tel Aviv could serve as the Capital?
Yeah i do read a lot( a lot lot) also i am jewish so my knowledge of isreal is pretty good.
Child, your statement in bold should be rephrased, it sounds like you are claiming that by virtue of being Jewish you know a lot about Israel, do all Jews know a lot about Israel?

you committed a cum hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, however this is understandable as you are both young and a nonnative speaker of English, please try again to convey what you mean as I would like to know

I included Barabbas because there are many ways to interpret what he was. Some call him a criminal, some call him a bandit, and some, including Josephus, refer to him as a revolutionary. A freedom fighter. Certainly Rome would consider such a person a criminal or bandit. He was fighting for political liberation from Rome, and as I lacked any other reference to revolutionaries, I decided on him.

Josephus, while a historian, did start out as a military commander.

IMO, Josephus is not a good choice for representing Israel wholly.

Stick with an actual Leader. I can't believe some of the ideas thrown out. David or Solomon. Also, you're wasting your effort discussing UB and UU and Traits. We dont even know how Civ 5 is set up - rumor is they are doing away with traits and who knows about the other stuff.

David & Solomon represent only 1 small era of Ancient Israel: the United Monarchy. The period of the Judges lasted much longer, that's why I suggested Deborah. The Hasmonean period is also quite important.

I included Barabbas because there are many ways to interpret what he was. Some call him a criminal, some call him a bandit, and some, including Josephus, refer to him as a revolutionary. A freedom fighter. Certainly Rome would consider such a person a criminal or bandit. He was fighting for political liberation from Rome, and as I lacked any other reference to revolutionaries, I decided on him.

Josephus, while a historian, did start out as a military commander.

Shimon Bar Kochba or Judah Maccabee would be the best representatives of a revolutionary.

Great ideas coming in, I have added some of them to my list in #2 post.

I like the idea of centering around a Ancient Israel mod also, but what would we considered ancient Israel? Up until the destruction of the second Temple?

I do think that modern Israel elements should be included so that more changes could have an effect as the game progresses in time.

Jewish semi-autonomy continued long after the Temple was destroyed. I would probably extend what I consider "Ancient Israel" at least until the time of Yehuda HaNasi, and possibly up until the dissolution of the Sanhedrin in the early 5th Century. In practical terms, I'm not sure what that would mean -- other than including Tzippori as a city.

Why shouldn't it be? The only other possible candidate would be Hebron, but that's like a %0.0001 chance. Isn't Jerusalem the obvious choice?

samaria would work too, i guess, but that's about as likely as hebron. jerusalem it is.

Tel Aviv as Capital?

freedom fighter isn't the same thing as leader. that would be like if in another couple thousand years, civilization CM had osama bin laden as the leader of arabia

Tel Aviv as Capital?

No. "Jewusalem".

-Life of Brian

No, seriously, Jerusalem. If I remember correctly, Tel Aviv wasn't even a city in ancient israel. And jerusalem was always the capital, even during the period of the 2 kingdoms, the kingdom of judah (main one) had its capital in jerusalem and the kingdom of israel had its eyes on the place, sparking off a couple 'o wars.

jews don't worship jesus. were fine with him but we don't believe he was the messiah. this is the main differance between judaism and christianity

There are other, more important differences. I'd like to stay on topic (if you really want to talk about this make a thread on the Off-Topic forum and post a link), but, again other, more important differences. (or you can pm me if you want to find out.)
Summary:

Trinity, Incarnation, that sort of thing.

No. "Jewusalem".

-Life of Brian

No, seriously, Jerusalem. If I remember correctly, Tel Aviv wasn't even a city in ancient israel. And jerusalem was always the capital, even during the period of the 2 kingdoms, the kingdom of judah (main one) had its capital in jerusalem and the kingdom of israel had its eyes on the place, sparking off a couple 'o wars.

Yeah, was the Capital of Modern Israel, where most of the countries have their embassies

nitpick: Tel Aviv is not nor ever was the capital of Israel. Most major countries have their embassies there because they do not recognize Jerusalem (on the territory the Israelis claim) as Israel's capital - not because they recognize Tel Aviv as the capital (which it is not).

nitpick: Tel Aviv is not nor ever was the capital of Israel. Most major countries have their embassies there because they do not recognize Jerusalem (on the territory the Israelis claim) as Israel's capital - not because they recognize Tel Aviv as the capital (which it is not).

:blush: you are right, they only drafted the Declaration of Independence there

Now that Civ 5 has been released and the mod tools will be out shortly, time to bump this thread to get some ideas cooking...

Instead of farms you could have kibbutzim (I think that's the plural of a kibbutz).

I lived on a kibbutz in Israel for 6 months a few years back and it was such a great experience. Israel is such an amazing country!:)

EDITED ON 9/27:

1. Leaders? David or Solomon

2. Unique Buildings? Pick 1 if not using 2 UUs Kotel (Replacing Walls, gives culture) Tower of David (Replacing Castle, gives culture)

3. Unique Units? Pick 1 or 2 Peltist(Replacing Archer, has a bonus vs. Melee units), Maccabee (Replacing Swordsman, start with Drill I) Merkava (Replacing Modern Armour, Has +1 Speed and +5 Strength)

4. Other ideas?

Ideas in bold-ish.

There's a thread already: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=383001

By the way, a good UA would be:

Diplomatic immunity -> Can defy UN resolution without suffering from penalties.

Leader: Solomon, the Kingdom of Israel reached it's peak under his rule. :king:
Babylon or Persian figurehead?

Unique Unit: Maccabee (impressibly fought off Greece, and as said before also refers to entire rebel army)

Unique Building: Synagogue, provides extra culture :worship:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bf/PilsenSynagogue.JPG

Unique Trait: Promised Land, decreases unhappiness created from war. :ar15:

More good ideas, got them added to my original post.

Well, there's no UN resolutions to deny and no war weariness per se. If you want to say decreased unhappiness from conquering cities, that could work, but not necessarily something that makes sense.

My suggestion
Leader: Solomon
Unique Unit: Maccabee - replaces Archer, cheaper (45 instead of 70). Animation would be a slinger
Unique Unit: Merkava - replaces Modern Armor, strength 100, heals at twice the rate

I figure the two unique units would represent the two main periods of Israeli history. The Merkava, in addition to being the strongest unit aside from Giant Death Robots, would heal quicker to represent the added protection they get (Merkavas are designed to protect the people inside at all costs).

Unique Ability - Promised Land - +25% bonus inside own territory (not thrilled with this one, but can't think of anything better at the moment).

The Dead Sea as a natural wonder.

I really like this idea.

Question:

What time frame of an Israelic civilization/mod would you prefer?

I see two options for this (please correct me if you disagree):

1. Ancient. Israel being surrounded by strong ancient civilizations like Egypt, Rome, Persia etc.

2. Modern. Israel in the "middle east" with modern Arabic states surrounding it (Iran, Libanon, Egypt, etc.), while most of them have a diplomatic malus against Israel. Maybe we can have a very close city state named "Palestine" right next to the starting settler which is at constant war against Israel. Well, I really don't want to make any political statement or emphasis at all. However I think this may be an interesting setup ;)

In both options I could picture an XP bonus to every military unit which is built in Israelian Cities, to counter the strong enemies.

Basically a free barracks? I could see something like that.

I would avoid making Israel too militaristic at the expense of considering the rest of their history (and there is the whole Monotheism thing ;) ). But there's no denying modern Israel's military contributions. Also, their noteworthy military successes in ancient times (mostly just beating the Selucids, but survived surrounded by Egyptians, Babylonians, and Assyrians, that's gotta count for something).

I would avoid making Israel too militaristic at the expense of considering the rest of their history (and there is the whole Monotheism thing ;) ).

I totally agree, but I don't see a Civ V concept which could represent the religious thing properly. Cheap temples/monuments for culture for example probably don't represent it well.

Free barracks seem fine to me ;)

This UA wouldn't work on an ancient Israel. Only if the mod included traits from modern Israel.

UA: Plant Dalet: your workers can pillage and build improvements on another Civ's tile. Once that improvement is done, that specific tile belongs to you. ;) :rolleyes:

unique ability: 2nd chance
get a new capital on the other side of the map when eliminated

Offtopic conversations belong in OT any more will receive infractions for Spam

Facton Ability - Lenders to the world - for every trade deal you have earn 2 gold per turn "intrest"
(it would be capped to one type of resource per faction, to stop abuse like lending 1gpt 10 times etc)

UB - Synagoug (sorry about the spelling) +1 culture on ordinary temples, +4 city defence (I want to promote the insular and almost fanatical defence of isreal so citys become much stronger)

UU - Mechanised infantry replacement - +12 strength +25% in desert and plains

UA: Plant Dalet: your workers can pillage and build improvements on another Civ's tile. Once that improvement is done, that specific tile belongs to you

nyuknyuknyuknyuk:rolleyes: :trouble:

This UA wouldn't work on an ancient Israel. Only if the mod included traits from modern Israel.

UA: Plant Dalet: your workers can pillage and build improvements on another Civ's tile. Once that improvement is done, that specific tile belongs to you. ;) :rolleyes:

UP: The Infinite State Solution: Every time you make peace with a Civ that declared war on you, any of their cities which you occupied become independent City States with -1000 relations. ("We renounce our claim to these lands which we have proven unable to hold onto...but only to those native inhabitants who are friendly to our cause.")

Basically a free barracks? I could see something like that.

I would avoid making Israel too militaristic at the expense of considering the rest of their history (and there is the whole Monotheism thing ;) ). But there's no denying modern Israel's military contributions. Also, their noteworthy military successes in ancient times (mostly just beating the Selucids, but survived surrounded by Egyptians, Babylonians, and Assyrians, that's gotta count for something).

The ancient Israelites were pretty militaristic, once they got out of Egypt.

As for a Unique Ability, I liked the 25% combat bonus in territory, but feel it would be better as "+25% combat bonus within X tiles from Capital". This bonus would scale with mapsize, and reflect the desire to hold onto the Holy Land. Alternatively, scale up the combat bonus near the capital, and cause a penalty for combat far from it.

Moved to creation & customization.

I totally agree, but I don't see a Civ V concept which could represent the religious thing properly. Cheap temples/monuments for culture for example probably don't represent it well.

Free barracks seem fine to me ;)

Back to that military thing :p

How about Holy City, which would give production and gold bonuses, plus +25% defense to the capitol during a golden age (on top of the normal bonuses during Golden Ages)? The idea would be to encourage you to use the piety tree to get more golden ages.

EDIT: Since I was a page behind, Hukuma's idea could be interesting. Perhaps the strength bonus at all times and the rest during the golden age. Extend the strength bonus to the capitol's internal borders (the amount of tiles it personally popped).

I really like the idea of an Israel/Israelite civilization. I would prefer the ancient Israelites, as the influence their religion has had on western civilization is incredible. There would be no Christianity or Islam without Abraham and Judaism. For that reason I was extremely surprised they weren't in Civ4, which prominently featured religion in the game. I can't think of a more significant civilization which has been consistently ignored by the developers.

UUs: Slinger - Short-ranged (one tile?) infantry with special bonuses versus archers. Merkhava - tank with defensive bonus in open terrain.
UA: Chabad telethon!! :D
Serious UA: Maybe a special bonus from the temple?
UB: I wonder what a Kibbutz could replace?

How about Holy City, which would give production and gold bonuses, plus +25% defense to the capitol during a golden age (on top of the normal bonuses during Golden Ages)? The idea would be to encourage you to use the piety tree to get more golden ages.

How about a Holy City thingy that provides gold and happiness for each Open Borders agreement, but which attracts barbarians like a beacon?

israel for civ5...yeah...

im waiting for this too.


איך צחקתי ששמעתי את הקולות של סיב 4
שעשית, זה היה ענק,
"מה שתבקש".

ענק!

Since I was bored...

http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/3028/civ5iconisrael.png

And here's the suggested civ colour information, so that it reflects on the icon. Values taken straight from the national flag, as shown on Wikipedia.

<GameData>
<Colors>
<Row>
<Type>COLOR_PLAYER_ISRAEL_BACKGROUND</Type>
<Red>0</Red>
<Green>0.220</Green>
<Blue>0.722</Blue>
<Alpha>1</Alpha>
</Row>
</Colors>
<PlayerColors>
<Row>
<Type>PLAYERCOLOR_ISRAEL</Type>
<PrimaryColor>COLOR_WHITE</PrimaryColor>
<SecondaryColor>COLOR_PLAYER_ISRAEL_BACKGROUND</SecondaryColor>
<TextColor>COLOR_PLAYER_WHITE_TEXT</TextColor>
</Row>
</PlayerColors>
</GameData>
You can use the image directly on the 256 version of the icon atlas (the default alpha channel will properly take the circle and leave out the background), and then downsize from there. :king:

UU: Maccabee (replaces swordsman, bonus when fighting within own borders)
UU: Merkava (replaces tank, starts with Medic promotion)
UA: Holy Land (+1 Culture per city AND +5 or 10% bonus for all units fighting within own borders)

This would make them the pre-eminent defensive faction in the game, without being OP.

A defensive nature not only represents most of the biblical timeframe (the conquest of Canaan being the only time they aggressively took land) but the modern timeframe as well (the defensive Wars of 1967 and 1972).

I would avoid any UA that treads to closely on another Civ's UA even if it doesn't copy it. Sure, France gives +2 culture instead of +1, but that really hurts diversity.

I would avoid any UA that treads to closely on another Civ's UA even if it doesn't copy it. Sure, France gives +2 culture instead of +1, but that really hurts diversity.

Good point, that. Maybe extra happiness per city instead?

I really like the Promised Land idea as well, but can't think of anything for it beyond a combat bonus for fighting within borders. And alternative UA I thought up is:

Land of Milk and Honey - All happiness resources within civ borders give extra happiness.

Giving them double happiness resources would probably fit more, but that'd mostly leave them dependent on trade, and it'd feel a bit too much like the Bazaar.

Doesn't that make the Arabic Bazaar completely pointless?

Extra happy per city sounds good, but also way too powerful.

Doesn't that make the Arabic Bazaar completely pointless?

The additional happiness per resource? How so? Does the Bazaar increase happiness? Thought it just duplicated happiness resources, but having multiples of happiness resources doesn't increase happiness.

Wouldn't be too much btw, maybe +1 happiness per resource within borders? That's for each tile btw, not for each type.

Extra happy per city sounds good, but also way too powerful.

Yeah, might probably would be, though you could make the extra happiness pretty small or just make it halved unhappiness from number of cities to compensate.

Thematically it'd fit though, the more of their promised land they settle the happier citizens are.

Thinking about it further, I agree with Louis XXIV as well.

I don't know if it's possible, but if it were, you could always give them a bonus towards the Piety branch Social Policy.

Bonus towards the Piety branch probably wouldn't be easy, considering the mechanic. I thought it better to encourage going for golden ages instead in order to use the Piety branch.

Vordeo, I think you're right. I misunderstood the Bazaar's effect. Happiness effects are an odd one for Israel. It seems like a nice idea, but what it'll do is encourage Israel to have a large empire, which seems anachronistic, to say the least.

True, but unless they add religion back in for an expansion, I can't come up with anything else for the Promised Land UA, and it's too good a concept not to use IMO.

I really like the idea of an Israel/Israelite civilization. I would prefer the ancient Israelites, as the influence their religion has had on western civilization is incredible. There would be no Christianity or Islam without Abraham and Judaism. For that reason I was extremely surprised they weren't in Civ4, which prominently featured religion in the game. I can't think of a more significant civilization which has been consistently ignored by the developers.

UUs: Slinger - Short-ranged (one tile?) infantry with special bonuses versus archers. Merkhava - tank with defensive bonus in open terrain.
UA: Chabad telethon!! :D
Serious UA: Maybe a special bonus from the temple?
UB: I wonder what a Kibbutz could replace?

The only contribution the Israelites made was Judaism and even that was indirectly through Christianity

The only contribution the Israelites made was Judaism and even that was indirectly through Christianity

Uh, what? Judaism came waaaay before Christianity, for one thing.

just a thought, if you went with Ancient Israel rather than modern Israel, the city names would be cooler. and itd be alot less damned political too.
open half the bibles in the world and there'll be a map covered in towns with totally awesome and pretty names, and with a game like civilisation, the city names are really the most important thing, after the prettiness of the flag of course.
[romania also has pretty names]

I would suggest going with the Ancient names as well. I usually think Solomon is their best choice for a leader, so it would make sense. If you want, have Tel Aviv as one of the latest city names, just to include representation of everything (also, I feel the Merkava is a cool unique Israeli unit, so they should get both ancient and modern).

BTW, one alternative way to think about the UA is to ask how you want Israel to play and then work an ability around that. I'm thinking a smaller, defensive oriented Civ that could fight enemies when it needed to. The UUs quite often do that, but maybe a defensive bonus wouldn't be entirely inappropriate.

what about for a unique trait, and this probably isnt possible, but the ability to survive occupation, or for puppeted cities to return to Israel control after 50 turns or something? Probably wouldnt be very useful to the player who doesnt really lose cities though, and really annoying to a player against them. No worries.
The defensive thing's probably better

And yes Solomon would be a great leader.
Who was the leader in, call to power? whichever Civ game had them in it? as then youd have precedent. and hey, a pre-prepared city list, dont know if it was any good though as that was a long time ago.

That would be a complete pain. Could you imagine playing against Israel? I'd burn every one of their cities to the ground. If the capitol reverted, I'd surround it with troops to prepare for that to happen so I could sack it over and over again. So, yeah, I wouldn't recommend it. I think the defensive bonus one is a good one. The player could play any variety of victory conditions, but their strength would be in keeping what they have, not in the gaining of new things.

Israel has never been in a Sid Meier's game, but I'm not sure about Call to Power. I'd suggest doublechecking any city list (even past civ games). They've had a habit of being lazy with research before.

That would be a complete pain. Could you imagine playing against Israel? I'd burn every one of their cities to the ground.

Isn't that exactly what Rome did with Jerusalem?:lol:

Yeah, but to be fair, Rome burned lots of cities to the ground (Carthage and Corinth come to mind as well). They left a land a desert and called it peace.

well you dont have to puppet, if you annexed then no risk. but no worries it wasnt a very good idea anyway and probably impossible to code.
A culture bonus maybe.

I still vote for the civ-wide unit bonus within their own borders.

Uh, what? Judaism came waaaay before Christianity, for one thing.

I just said that!

EDITED ON 9/27:

Shalom everyone!

Since Israel has not been included in the release of Civ 5, I am asking if there is a SERIOUS developer that would like to create a Israel mod?

I speak Hebrew and supplied the Hebrew sounds (http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8626) for the Esnav's Israel mod for Civ 4, and, I would be happy to create and supply the Hebrew language sounds for a Civ 5 mod for Israel.

So, with that being said, name what you guys think should be included in a Israel mod with what Civ 5 is capable to offer?

1. Leaders?

2. Unique Buildings?

3. Unique Units?

4. Other ideas?

Howdie Neighbor. :goodjob:
I gotta tell you that im deeply offended that you've got Hadera all the way down that list, it should have come right after jerusalem, so what if we have a football players. :mischief:

as a rule of thumb I'd say don't attempt to solve a problem that others have solved before you saw how they have done it first.

Go and check the Overlord 2 mod (is now ver 2.3.8), Keldath managed to have a beautiful compilation of tons of mods in there, among them - religion oriented mods.
Go there and study from his successes and mistakes, he's a great guy(not just because he's on my friends list :3) he'll probably could help you with ideas and methods of work related to your mod. :)

BTW he is from Israel too. ^^

Israel has never been in a Sid Meier's game, but I'm not sure about Call to Power.

Israel was in CTP.

שלומ חברה

I just posted a Hebrew mod last night. It's far from perfect but certainly lets those who really want to have some Hebrew civving do so ;)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=385530

I saw that. At a minimum, I'll probably steal your icons (with credit of course). Hopefully people can get graphics for it too. That would make it perfect.

Feel free to do so, though it might not be a great idea, the icons are very amateurish, Solomon's icon has visible artifacts. Any artist will make something much better looking.

Once i know how to get from a 3d model to a working civ5 budiling i will probably help with creating a synagogue :)

Go and check the Overlord 2 mod (is now ver 2.3.8), Keldath managed to have a beautiful compilation of tons of mods in there, among them - religion oriented mods.
Go there and study from his successes and mistakes, he's a great guy(not just because he's on my friends list :3) he'll probably could help you with ideas and methods of work related to your mod.

BTW he is from Israel too. ^^

tuxu
thanks buddy :)

ill be doing a mod for civ5 as well, probably in a few month, i need a new cpu, and im waiting on some major patches, and mod components to be released first, i feel civ5 is not yet ripe for me :)

Solver - yap saw your post, awesome.

סולבר,
אתה זה שעשית את הפאטצ הלא רשמי
לסיב 4??

כנ, זה אני :)

Feel free to do so, though it might not be a great idea, the icons are very amateurish, Solomon's icon has visible artifacts. Any artist will make something much better looking.

Hey, I have no artistic talent. Until I can convince someone to make something better, I think it's great. The menorah is nice, at least.

Uh, guys, I made a civ icon for you and suggested colour values a couple of pages ago (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9681894&postcount=93). :p

how cool solver,

your in almost every mod for civ 4!

its so fun to know that we have a lot of representation on civ fanatics :)

Lord Shadow, yep, I saw the icon today. While it's much better done than the icon I'm using, I specifically thought I wouldn't like to use the Star of David when making a Hebrew mod. The mod is largely based on the ancient Kingdom, not on modern Israel, while the Star of David is much, much more recent than the menorah as a Jewish symbol.

Uh, guys, I made a civ icon for you and suggested colour values a couple of pages ago (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9681894&postcount=93). :p

That's very cool too. Nice to have options.

True, but unless they add religion back in for an expansion, I can't come up with anything else for the Promised Land UA, and it's too good a concept not to use IMO.

Just thought something up: Promised Land - +1 culture for each unit stationed within your cultural borders. Idea being that the more they control their Promised Land, the more whole they are as a culture.

Might be overpowered, but it wouldn't be affected by any modifiers, and you'd have to devote a good number of resources to gold for maintenance/buildings if you wanted to use it to go culture.

Alternatively, +1 happy for each unit would make more sense, but that'd be OP.

True, but unless they add religion back in for an expansion, I can't come up with anything else for the Promised Land UA, and it's too good a concept not to use IMO.

My suggestion, especially for ancient Israel: the Promised Land (I think Eretz Yisrael or Eretz H'Kodesh might be better names) is a unique ability that gives a significant advantage to units fighting inside cultural borders. The ancient Israelites were constantly beating back or revolting against substantially superior foes. But, for the most part, they weren't expansionist beyond the Land of Israel. They wanted to stay independent. But they didn't really want to conquer.

The only contribution the Israelites made was Judaism and even that was indirectly through Christianity

Have you heard of the Alphabet? Ever wonder why we call it that? Alpha, Beta, Gamma etc. in Greek mean nothing. That's because they are borrowed words from Hebrew. Aleph (strength), Bet (house), gimmel (camel) in Hebrew are real words.

The Greeks took the alphabet from the Hebrews. Ironically, the Hebrews themselves stopped writing in their old alphabet during the Babylonian Exile. So, whereas the ancient Hebrew alphabet evolved into Greek, then Latin and English, the Hebrew language itself is now written in Aramaic block characters.

Another unique ability idea would be "the Diaspora" (+1 gold for each foreign city or city-state you have contact with). That doesn't make sense for ancient Israel, but it does make sense for classical Israel (Maccabees through the end of Yehuda HaNasi's principality in Galilee). Jews spread out throughout the world, and kept sending money back home -- first to support the Temple, and later to support the communities left after the Roman destruction, and the academies at Yavneh, Tzippori & Tiberias.

Personal Opinion on what Israel should be.

UU1: Merkava
Replaces Modern Armour, requires no resources, +4 Strength

UU2: Commando
Replaces Paratrooper, has stealth, +50% City Attack

UA: Aliyah
Temples and other religious building/wonders give a slight bonus to military and growth in ratio to building to units/cities; Piety and Rationalism can be run at the same time with no ill effects.

Leader: David Ben Gurion

Have you heard of the Alphabet? Ever wonder why we call it that? Alpha, Beta, Gamma etc. in Greek mean nothing. That's because they are borrowed words from Hebrew. Aleph (strength), Bet (house), gimmel (camel) in Hebrew are real words.

The Greeks took the alphabet from the Hebrews. Ironically, the Hebrews themselves stopped writing in their old alphabet during the Babylonian Exile. So, whereas the ancient Hebrew alphabet evolved into Greek, then Latin and English, the Hebrew language itself is now written in Aramaic block characters.

Ouch, that's not true at all. The Phoenicians (biblical Canaanites, if you're interested). It's a Semitic language, so there are similarities.

Ouch, that's not true at all. The Phoenicians (biblical Canaanites, if you're interested). It's a Semitic language, so there are similarities.

Punic and Hebrew were practically identical at the relevant time period. In fact, we largely decipher Punic today through our knowledge of Hebrew.

It's disputed whether the alphabet came from the Phoenicians or the Israelites. There are solid claims on both sides. The Phoenicians were traders. But so were the Israelites, particularly the tribes of Dan and Zebulan. It's widely believed, for instance, that the Jewish communities in Spain and Jerba (Tunisia) were founded in the First Temple period.

I really like the work you have done with this mod but don't mean any offense I think you guys put your religious or personal bias infront of historical facts:

The kingdom of Israel was never that big. It was even smaller than the present state of Israel, and to be accurate, it was a kingdom over some small tribes and in any case wasn't comparable to its neighbors' empires rich with their cultures, like Egypt, Mesopotamia and Phoenicia. You gotta also put in mind that we are talking about a CIVILIZATION. Nearly all the civilizations in V continued in some form or the other through the ages, Egypt for example continued to be a great power in the Middle east long after the pharaohs in the form of the Mamluke empire, Fatimids, and Salahudin, the turks continued to be a source of power after the fall of the seljuks in the form of the ottomans, etc..

The Torah explains that Abraham, the patriarch of the Israelites, migrated from between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in Babylon, which is modern day Iraq, into the land of the Philistines (from whence the word Palestine comes), where they then slaughtered the inhabitants, much like today, and took the land from the indigenous peoples. Thus, if the Kingdom of Israel is going to be shown, why isn't the "Kingdom of Philistine" shown before it?.

The natural response to that question is, "The Philistine's didn't have an 'empire' to speak of." That is correct. But neither did the Israelites. Anybody with a decent enough historical knowledge would know that the so-called "Kingdom of Israel" pales by far in comparison to the magnitude of the other great empires in the Middle east, so much so that it begs the question why it is was even some people want it in the first place and if the Kingdom of Israel constituted a kingdom worthy of inclusion on the game, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the Kingdom of Philistine would also be worthy of mention since all the Israelites did was take over the Philistine's land?

Notably, I had an excellent lecture in ancient history in undergrad by a professor that had a Ph.D. in the subject, and never was Israel recognized nor mentioned along with any of the great kingdoms of antiquity. Lemme' guess. Anti-semitism, right? Lastly, your Kingdom of Israel can't be taken seriously. Where exactly is the evidence to support that? What monolithic art and architecture did ancient Jews ever produce? Meanwhile, we have loads of artifacts from their ancient contemporaries. Their are other civilizations and empires in the Middle east that should be concluded, Israel is not one of them.

-snip-
I agree Israel's cultural achievements pale in comparison to that of some of its contemporary peers, and I don't think I'd officially include it in a Civilization game.

However, modded-in civs need not pass such rigurous scrutiny.

I really like the work you have done with this mod but don't mean any offense I think you guys put your religious or personal bias infront of historical facts:

The kingdom of Israel was never that big. It was even smaller than the present state of Israel, and to be accurate, it was a kingdom over some small tribes and in any case wasn't comparable to its neighbors' empires rich with their cultures, like Egypt, Mesopotamia and Phoenicia. You gotta also put in mind that we are talking about a CIVILIZATION. Nearly all the civilizations in V continued in some form or the other through the ages, Egypt for example continued to be a great power in the Middle east long after the pharaohs in the form of the Mamluke empire, Fatimids, and Salahudin, the turks continued to be a source of power after the fall of the seljuks in the form of the ottomans, etc..


Your history is pretty ignorant. At its height, both ancient Israel and classical Israel were much bigger than modern Israel. They included large chunks of present-day Jordan (basically all the fertile areas on the east bank of the Jordan), and much of southern Syria and Lebanon.

And ancient-classical Israel continued for a LONG time. The Israelites conquered the land in about 1300 b.c.e. and stayed sovereign for more than 700 years (till 586 b.c.e.). Then, after about a 60 year lag, the Israelites returned and functioned as a self-governing autonomous region of the Persian and Greek empires for the next 400 years. Then they were independent for about a century. If you count the autonomous rump state in Galilee under Yehuda HaNasi, classical Israel lasts till about 200 c.e. So that's close to a 1500 year period -- far longer than most civs in the game.



The Torah explains that Abraham, the patriarch of the Israelites, migrated from between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in Babylon, which is modern day Iraq, into the land of the Philistines (from whence the word Palestine comes), where they then slaughtered the inhabitants, much like today, and took the land from the indigenous peoples. Thus, if the Kingdom of Israel is going to be shown, why isn't the "Kingdom of Philistine" shown before it?.


Wow you are ignorant. The Caananite tribes preceded Israel, not the Phillistines. The Phillistines were later invaders who post-dated the Israelites by about 200 years, and likely originated in Crete or Anatolia. And the Philistines NEVER ruled more than a small stretch of the land of Israel. Their territory pretty much approximated the modern day Gaza Strip, though it extended a little farther north. The name "Palestine" comes from them only because, as Israel's greatest enemy, the Romans thought it would be fun to rename Judea "Palestine" as a way to insult the Jews. It had nothing to do with Phillistine power.



Lastly, your Kingdom of Israel can't be taken seriously. Where exactly is the evidence to support that? What monolithic art and architecture did ancient Jews ever produce? Meanwhile, we have loads of artifacts from their ancient contemporaries. Their are other civilizations and empires in the Middle east that should be concluded, Israel is not one of them.

Again, you are misinformed. There's a pretty substantial record of Israel, both in archeology and in the region beginning in the period of the Divided Monarchy. We've got Hezekiah's cistern. We've got Assyrian slabs that mention Ahaziah, Jehu and Omri. We've got Egyptian steles that record battles. We've got substantial fortifications all over the country. Just a few years ago, they discovered the royal palace in the City of David.

In fact, given that Israel CAN'T dig in most of Jerusalem (because it's inhabited), it's pretty remarkable what we do have.

And by the classical period, we've got a clear record of the Maccebees defeating the Selecuid Empire, of both the Maccabean and Herodian dynasties, and of the revolts against Rome.

I agree with Drirlake, which is why my Israel is completely about modern Israel. While the ancient kingdom was insignificant, modern Israel proved itself to be one of the greatest modern nation on earth. In countless wars, Israel was able to defend itself from collations after collections of attack (Independence War, 6 Day War, Yom Kippur War, etc). Simulations runned by the /USAF/ showed a hypothetical engagment between them and Israel's air force, and Israel won. While its small, it certainly is a major minor power, and I can see it becoming a major one in its own right in the next 20 years or so.

Israel and the Jewish people have always had a noteworthy contribution of history. It's quite a strange history of religious inspiration, cultural unity while dispersed, and an odd habit of making life difficult for other empires. When many places are conquered, that's the end of it. Israel somehow managed to keep their identity for thousands of years and reestablish itself. It's also the only real example of taking what was basically a dead (or at least not truly used) language and turning it into a primary language.

I'm not saying for a fact whether or not they should be in the game. But there's no question that Israel is a curious case without real parallels in history. Militarily, they were never a powerhouse no question. In fact, while I suggested the two UUs, I'm leaning strongly against a militaristic UA for that reason. Culturally, their influence can be felt in oddly present ways.

Have you heard of the Alphabet? Ever wonder why we call it that? Alpha, Beta, Gamma etc. in Greek mean nothing. That's because they are borrowed words from Hebrew. Aleph (strength), Bet (house), gimmel (camel) in Hebrew are real words.

The Greeks took the alphabet from the Hebrews. Ironically, the Hebrews themselves stopped writing in their old alphabet during the Babylonian Exile. So, whereas the ancient Hebrew alphabet evolved into Greek, then Latin and English, the Hebrew language itself is now written in Aramaic block characters.
Actually both Hebrew and Greek are derived from Phoenician (Arabic too)
Punic and Hebrew were practically identical at the relevant time period. In fact, we largely decipher Punic today through our knowledge of Hebrew.

It's disputed whether the alphabet came from the Phoenicians or the Israelites. There are solid claims on both sides. The Phoenicians were traders. But so were the Israelites, particularly the tribes of Dan and Zebulan. It's widely believed, for instance, that the Jewish communities in Spain and Jerba (Tunisia) were founded in the First Temple period.
Hebrew descends from Phoenician so I'm not surprised of similarities
Phoenician is a Semitic language

I need proof of them being settled then
I agree with Drirlake, which is why my Israel is completely about modern Israel. While the ancient kingdom was insignificant, modern Israel proved itself to be one of the greatest modern nation on earth. In countless wars, Israel was able to defend itself from collations after collections of attack (Independence War, 6 Day War, Yom Kippur War, etc). Simulations runned by the /USAF/ showed a hypothetical engagment between them and Israel's air force, and Israel won. While its small, it certainly is a major minor power, and I can see it becoming a major one in its own right in the next 20 years or so.
http://fayinc.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/citation-needed-wikipedia-819731_500_271.jpg
for USAF simulation