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AlphaShard
Dec 04, 2010, 10:01 AM
I did notice the Arcturus Spy which is why I didn't know which spy you were referring to. I didn't chop without posting, I posted and Blubmuz posted that it looked like a good idea.

HUSch
Dec 04, 2010, 12:39 PM
The problem with plans is that there is a lot of postings here and so if you don't look allways you can forget that there is a plan, bad for the plan :D
But now is now and we must decide, build a missio now in Sirius or not. The situation in Mavs land is so: there is nothing to decide.

I see 2 plans
This turn 127: Toch chop and break and TC break
Next turn 128: Toch chop and break and TC road
in 2 turns 129: TC finish the road at founding tile and Toch goes there and chop and break
in 3 turns 130: The settler is ready goes at founding tile, TC chop the gain goes to Sirius, the settler found the city, the missio gives our religion, Toch goes back at the forest tile and chop (the gain goes to new city with orga bonus)
The break after giving order is important in this cases.
or
This turn 127: Toch goes at founding tile (this move is the worker turn we lost)
next turn 128: Toch road, Claudius finish chop
Turn 129: Toch finish road, Sirius build the settler, the settler goes at founding tile, found the town, Claudius goes at forest hill to chop, etc

So what is better:
the town 1 turn early or
a missio to achenar plus 1 worker turn. Additional, we pack cultur in Achenar, a disadvantage in our relations to Amazon.

How we decide this we must move EI1,
if we build the missio than EI1 has to go north direction to sol coast, so that next turn the missio can go at EI1 and EI1 can then go to Achenar to get the religion in turn 130 for the gain of chop forest..
if we don't build the missio, EI1 should go direction Achenar to take a mace, go then to SOL to take HR and transport all to Bode.

The other question remain: whip in AC the stable for :hammers:
Buildings in Rigel Lib or observatory? 3 pop more for observatory.

Change of EsP-slider so that CDZ gat 45/6 EsP from us, and (I hope) we can see their graphs.

We/you have 7 hours to decide, I'm here 4 hours available, to explain and discuss, then is my time break.

BLubmuz
Dec 04, 2010, 01:58 PM
Lost a mace for nothing. Not that i'm glad to say "i've told you"

But you were right in fearing Quat can take that city... not so easy, we can hope they get wiped after softening the units in that island. Maybe there's the chance we can jump to gather the spoils.

Let's keep EI1 in that zone, to ferry troops from our core.

3 EIs are more than enough for an invading force... provided we have one.

Well done the market, for how long do we plan to keep the Espion slider @ max?

HUSch
Dec 04, 2010, 02:31 PM
I would like you decide/vote/answer the questions above.


Quat is direct attack the town, their commerce is very lower than our.

The EsP-slider can go lower if we 've an idea what we want more. In this turn I would like it high.

AlphaShard
Dec 04, 2010, 02:31 PM
I am looking, constantly and I'll alt tab between the game and this forum trying to make sure I have everything.

Why can't we finish the chop on Sol?

If we build the library in Rigel I'm sure that will piss off the Amazons. Just saying so it's known.

I just logged in quickly, not moving anything but why were you upset set about Toch? He hasn't done anything this turn. How did we lose a worker turn?

HUSch
Dec 04, 2010, 03:43 PM
Why can't we finish the chop on Sol? 1

If we build the library in Rigel I'm sure that will piss off the Amazons. Just saying so it's known.2

I just logged in quickly, not moving anything but why were you upset set about Toch? He hasn't done anything this turn. How did we lose a worker turn?

1. The chop gain is only one of the benefit the worker is at founding tile (hill), if we 've a road when the settler comes we found 1 turn earlier (that is the additional benefit), so if we go with toch at the founding tile to road this we lost the turn of toch going there, if Claudius (who is on the tile) road, we lost a turn, because Toch can go at earliest at turn 129 at the tile and we need 2 turns to chop, also we can found the town at turn 130, we 've then nothing from the roading of the tile.


2. That is my opinion also. But imo there is no chance for Ama to found there any good town. We 've 5 turns to 100 :culture: and so 2. exp. We should say it to them, they know it also, we are creat (+2 :culture:) and need the reli for orga another :culture:.

I'm upset about Claudius not Toch. I 've posted a plan here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9959469&postcount=2159), but this has going down the river in the fred. But in my head there was this plan. And this plan was about making a missio for Achenar and delay the settler 1 turn, so we 've no missio for Achenar but for the new town, thats not bad, I can understand. There was also an idea/proposal the missio should go to Ama for them to get the reli.

I'm often pissed, but not long; most I'm pissed about me, that I made the plan not clear enough, that you all understand it. This isn't my homespeak so I must often looking for words, it makes my contribution difficult sometimes take pains.

AlphaShard
Dec 04, 2010, 04:24 PM
I'm sorry for not being able to understand your directions better, perhaps Trystero should play the turn, he seems to understand them better.

HUSch
Dec 04, 2010, 04:31 PM
I 've made some lines in the game, for moving EI2 (2 directions)
I 've looked at Quats army (no siege weapon), what would be there, if we could conquer Injinya now and they could come and reinforce, would they do it? Our ally ...


http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=274509&stc=1&d=1291505150


http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=274510&stc=1&d=1291505155

To do list:
1. decide missio or not in Sirus
2. Hsch goes at forest to chop
3. EI1 move at line
4. Toch chop or go at founding tile

good night.

AlphaShard
Dec 04, 2010, 05:53 PM
Sure lets build a missionary in Sirius, Chop the forests and move E1 to Sirius.

HUSch
Dec 05, 2010, 10:05 AM
What is the situation in the next turn,
Quat has landed )units (5 mace, 2 cross, 2 pikes) at the hill, we 've left.
Our units are at EI Nobody with 3 siege at coast there and enterprise with 4 maces at Copper. a third is on the way 4 turns to army point, so 5-6 to Gold or another coast tile (at north of Mavs Isle).

What want we do now?
1. We can cancel the conquer and go back to building and research.
2. We can go back at the Isle and compete with Quat, who 'll conquer Injinya, when this is our plan, I would vote for playing last in time (after Quat).
3. We can go against another Mav city at the Isle or against copper.



What should we build in Prokyon, the wb is finish and is for Achenar, so we build a forge or a new wb? We need a settler for Bode south coast?

To do list for next turn:
1. the right moves with worker at Sol.
2. Moving the combat units at Bode to the army point n Arc.

Trystero
Dec 05, 2010, 02:13 PM
I think we should not move anything next turn until we are all sure we understand what we are doing. I also agree it's probably best next turn to wait and see what happens with Quatronia.

I am really not sure if we should try to grab cities on the Mavs home island or not. We risk being in a poor position if Quat controls the entire island.

Irgy
Dec 05, 2010, 08:56 PM
If Mavs send their forces to recapture the pyramids city from Quatronia, then we ought to be able to take their other cities in response. If they don't try and recapture it, then, well, it probably means we really should have captured it ourselves when we had the chance.

I'm starting to think we should actually assign a single, multi-player experienced turn player for making war related moves. I might be getting the wrong impression from being a little removed from things, but it feels like we're sending our units in circles and getting nowhere because we don't agree on anything and are switching back and forth between plans.

I'm not saying go as far as running ourselves like Merlot, even though it seems to be working for them, because that's not the team we signed up for. But having a general with responsibility and the final say would probably be an improvement.

AlphaShard
Dec 06, 2010, 04:40 AM
More like getting confused on what the best move is. It seemed like everyone was one page one minute and then another the next. I just want to say I didn't make ANY war decisions or major ones like the whipping of Rigel without consulting you guys. I guess I just didn't understand or whatever. I do want to point out that several did say that re-loading after we lost that mace was ok. I'm also still not convinced we could stop the galleys from coming out of Copper city to reinforce Mav island, but maybe we should let them?

So far Injinya still stands, though I don't know for how long.

The only things I did was place a Maceman in the build que for Vega, since the game asked me to, and Barracks for Procyon (these can be changed obviously). I moved the finished wb to the clams 2 squares away, figured that was a no brainer.

I did upgrade Astraea to a Cross, she's useless as an archer, and I thought we'd be moving the Espionage slider down by now. Also our negative gold per turn seems to have gone down from over 100 to 86. I moved the treb as well to Point of Army sign.

I saw the E2 turn 131 so I figured that meant for E2 to continue around the spoke to that point. Unfortunately has run into a galley, so that will fight her next turn. This is why I wanted a Caraval guarding this point.

Also Quat still have that GA so they still can culture bomb whenever and whereever they want to. I'm sure if they wanted they could bomb us off the island even if we DID get both the Pyramid city and the Mav capital.

EDIT: Also I thought someone was going to change Rigel to build a library instead of the Observatory?

I would be fine with an assigned turn player, I think we do need to work on our micro thread, that really helped and kept everyone happy before.

HUSch
Dec 06, 2010, 06:47 AM
1. There was a great oppositio against lib in Rigel, so we can't build it.
2. Why moved you the wb in Prokyon without posting? Sry, can you ask before you are moving units?
imo the wb is for Achenar, if you 've another idea, it would be good to post it, noz move tie first moment you can do it. We don't need the food-tile there, we 'll be building a forge and then the next wb. You 've changed to barracks. to build combat units, momentary I would like forge more, at least we need a wb for Achenar.

The marker (Turn131 EI2) shows the tiles our EI can reach now we 've Turn 128, in Turn 130 we should decide which units goes at EI2 and move them then to the coastal point

Any more ideas please.
the GA is only a momentary push, it can be good for action then, I don't think they could us push from the Isle if we 've there a city, because our crea is a lot of culture in long way.

a barb is no combat for the EI and the EI should fight against it (99,9). Also I don't like auto moves. Imo there is no reason for that; it's irritating, if the units move without order.

AlphaShard
Dec 06, 2010, 12:55 PM
Well if were really going to argue about the WB, first off it's not settled so it can still go north. Also in Procyon the Barracks is a *placeholder* meaning there was nothing else for it to be building in it's build que. I only placed Barracks to have something there, if you think WB should go north then I rather build another WB there.

It seems the most efficient thing to have done was have Rigel build the 2nd WB, I'm sure the overflow would have done it very quickly but that's passed now I think.

Well at best the GA could cause a major culture war which would obviously lead us to fighting Quat.

You say we have these plans yet they seem to get peppered and spread through these posts. This is why we need to update the Micro thread so we can keep all the plans there so when ever someone plays the turn we know exactly what's going on.

HUSch
Dec 06, 2010, 03:51 PM
I made 2 lines in the sea between Mavs Isle and spire to indicate the tiles in which 1 EI can blockade the res transfer over sea. We should, if we 've a EI in this tiles gve order to blockade.

Good night

BLubmuz
Dec 06, 2010, 04:17 PM
I think it can be a good idea to open a thread which we can call "tactics" "war" or something...

There we can post our war plans, research and diplo as strategy like what to do, why and so on.

It should be managed and organized as the MM thread is.

Thoughts?


I think i agree with Irgy about the "general". Anyone volunteers?

I already said i'm good in solo, but a noob in multi, so i don't think i can qualify for this.

BTW, is LP almost out of the fold? I never seen a post from him regarding MM or the war or anything else. And the ton of other members who signed for this team?

Irgy
Dec 06, 2010, 04:54 PM
A micro thread for war issues would be a good idea. I'd guess that HUSch is the best person to look after it, but it depends on how much time and inclination he has.

The Sirius intra-team game has finished, so hopefull Lord Parkin will have more time for the demo game itself.

AlphaShard
Dec 06, 2010, 05:09 PM
If the moves and such are planned and listed like they were in MM thread then I could do it. However I think my vote would go for Trystero.

I just logged in and it seems Quat is moving their army, they are no longer next to Injinya, the Galleon is instead going to the otherside of the island to Iron City.

Why does Enterprise have no movement points?

HUSch
Dec 07, 2010, 02:06 AM
So we can go to Injinya in 3-4 turns again. With Quats army there we can attack and hold the town. But we need more units so the next EI is coming.

We can land some units at the spire so that they are only 1 return tour from Injinya, better phrasing.
so that an EI can take them as reinforcement in short time.

What units should go at EI2? They must move the next turn to the coastal point. cross, trebs, pikes or maces? The cat ship (I think it's Nob should take other units.

Trystero
Dec 07, 2010, 12:56 PM
I have no problem playing turns, but I agree that we need some mechanism by which we agree on the moves to be made so that those moves are unambiguous, and that no moves are made prior to final agreement. Also, I agree that we should have only one turnplayer per turn. We are running around in circles.

HUSch seems to be doing the vast majority of planning/micro at the moment (I apologize for not being more involved, but I have several year-end deadline things happening). I suggest we post a turn plan in the micro thread and then edit that post as changes are made after discussion, so that there is only one post that needs to be referred to for turn playing.

I will have a look at the game, but I agree with gathering our units and attempting to take at least one town (hopefully Injinya) on the Mavs home island.

AlphaShard
Dec 07, 2010, 01:00 PM
Where do we want our slider? 100% on Espionage or Gold?

Which spire do you mean? I hope you don't mean Mav's spire, wouldn't that put them at risk of being attacked?

HUSch
Dec 07, 2010, 01:59 PM
I think we 've enough EsP, so the slider to money can be good at this turn.

Can someone understand, what Quat want there? Land units from 3 Galleons and has 4, next turn the units return to the ships and only 1 galleon goes around.

I 've mad a plan and postet it here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9984180&postcount=1).

Please tell ideas I 'll change the post then.

AlphaShard
Dec 07, 2010, 02:38 PM
Actually we can only see 1 Galleon, the others may be hidden in the fog.

Trystero
Dec 08, 2010, 12:52 AM
I've re-stated HUSch's plan in the Turn Plan thread to make sure it is absolutely clear and asked a few questions.

AlphaShard
Dec 08, 2010, 04:28 AM
For item three I take it that Juno would then be guarding Archnar?

Mariner was heading toward Copper city to blockade, but it can help in transporting the other spy at Army point I think.

HUSch
Dec 08, 2010, 04:34 AM
Are you saying have a cat disembark from Nobody and move another unit (maceman, crossbow, pike) on board the ship? Nobody would then have 2 trebs, 1 cat, and a soldier. I'm not sure why you say "only 2 cats".
Now we 've 3 cats on Nob, if we change 1 we 've 2 cats on Nob. perhaps is best if the cat go at the lands end from Nob.

I 've made change in mm in Sirius (Ws to engineer) and between AC and Canopus, so that the HA in AC is finish this turn. I don't like the situation in AC with the 14 netto :hammers: and +1 :food:, with ws instead forest, we lpst til guilds another :food: for nothing, I must consider some ideas I've.

I 've made a MM-plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9986121&postcount=162) for the youngest towns.


After finishing the HA in Canopus, i would like to build a wb for the new town for getting some :food: there. Also in AC some buildings.
What is your opimions about some libs there (AC and Can), we ve a good numder of units.

The queue in Sirius shows an observatory next in 4 turns; a good idea.
What is with 1-2 additional towns on Bode, what is your opinion, too early, better wait or another important thing, perhaps another EI first. I couldn't decide for me, what is best/I want.

HUSch
Dec 08, 2010, 04:36 AM
Alpha
what is your meaning, if you say blockade?
The imposibility to go out of town or the cut of of resource (as it is in game); perhaps I don't understand you right.

AlphaShard
Dec 08, 2010, 04:51 AM
Alpha
what is your meaning, if you say blockade?
The imposibility to go out of town or the cut of of resource (as it is in game); perhaps I don't understand you right.

The impossibilty of taking their galley's out.

I also added a EI (last turn) to the Sirius Queue, I do think more ships is a good thing.

Trystero
Dec 08, 2010, 12:11 PM
For item three I take it that Juno would then be guarding Archnar?

Yes.

.
Now we 've 3 cats on Nob, if we change 1 we 've 2 cats on Nob. perhaps is best if the cat go at the lands end from Nob.

We have currently 1 treb and 2 cats on Nobody. So you are suggesting we take one cat off and put 2 more units (mace and crossbow?) on Nobody along with 1 treb and 1 cat?

I don't understand "perhaps is best if the cat go at the lands end from Nob". What do you mean by land's end?

After finishing the HA in Canopus, i would like to build a wb for the new town for getting some :food: there. Also in AC some buildings.
What is your opimions about some libs there (AC and Can), we ve a good numder of units.

Libraries sound good in AC and Canopus. Do you mean we have enough units on Sol, or in our entire empire? I think we need to keep making more units. We are likely to lose some attacking the Mavs home island.

Any other comments? I can play as soon as we are in agreement with the current plan.

AlphaShard
Dec 08, 2010, 12:45 PM
Yeah we can't stop making units, I think that is the main job of Vega and Arcturus.

HUSch
Dec 08, 2010, 01:10 PM
I think also an EI is not bad there.

To blockade (as Dave had meant it), the EI can blockade any sea-tile in the radius 3 in all directions. My ingame markers don't make sense without the lines which are destroyed, we should allways 've an EI with at least 1 moving point to blockade the res transfer, so the isle has no ivory and spire no iron. Additional the towns 've no tradeway with oversea-bonus.

HUSch
Dec 08, 2010, 01:25 PM
We have currently 1 treb and 2 cats on Nobody. So you are suggesting we take one cat off and put 2 more units (mace and crossbow?) on Nobody along with 1 treb and 1 cat? Sry, I didn't knowed it right.

I don't understand "perhaps is best if the cat go at the lands end from Nob". What do you mean by land's end?
I mean the tiles south of army point at Bode.


Libraries sound good in AC and Canopus. Do you mean we have enough units on Sol, or in our entire empire? I think we need to keep making more units. We are likely to lose some attacking the Mavs home island. We need more units for our war against Mav, they build cats and 'll attack any landing army with them, so we lost units, not only the unlucky. I want to build the wb for the new town in Canopus the next 2 turns. We 've not build libs, because the ETTA make us not to hurry in research, but in the longtime we need libs and other research buildings. The 2 HA are ready next turn and ferry in 2 turns

Any other comments? I can play as soon as we are in agreement with the current plan.
I 'd quit the game and you can make the turn, for the EI blockade at the last movingpoint.

Trystero
Dec 08, 2010, 01:38 PM
Sry, I didn't knowed it right.

Sorry HUSch - I don't understand this either: do you think 3 siege + 1 soldier or 2 siege + 2 soldiers is better on Nobody?

HUSch
Dec 08, 2010, 02:03 PM
I 've a list
We 've army point or there this turn: mace, 2 cross pike and treb,
additional near Arc: Orwin (mace, must heal this turn), mace, pike, treb, 3 cats
Together: 3 mace, 2 cross, 2 pikes, 2 trebs and 3 cats, additional at Nob 2 cats and 1 treb

We 've 12 slots, 4 mace at Enter, for Nob and EI2 we take 2 cross, 2 mace (include Orwin next turn at EI 2), 1 pike (if we play correct they couldn't build more eles) and 3 trebs (or 2 trebs 1 cat).

cats are only better at field combat, but I see no chance for it in their land.

What is your opinion for that, I'm lousy in war times.

In turn 133 we can land at OB.

Trystero
Dec 08, 2010, 02:09 PM
If we are going to use the Spy for city revolt in Injinya, I suggest we take cats over trebs, and bring the trebs when we secure the city. Trebs are better against cities, and cats are better against units. I think we need to bring units to defend against a counter attack at Injinya.

HUSch
Dec 08, 2010, 02:20 PM
If we are going to use the Spy for city revolt in Injinya, I suggest we take cats over trebs, and bring the trebs when we secure the city. Trebs are better against cities, and cats are better against units. I think we need to bring units to defend against a counter attack at Injinya.

We want to fight with the siege weapons against units in InJinya or do I see this wrong?
trebs are better in this situation best with CR, I think they 've ~50 % against normal mace at best. So 1 or 2 'll be lost for knocking, the best is the collateral damage.

The counterattack 'll go from 2 tiles range. So we couldn't attack their units. But better you decide.


btw last idea.
Perhaps we need a second spy there, he can go in turn 131 at mariner and in 133 in Injinya. That should we do, for 2. turn revolt, enough EsP we 've.

Trystero
Dec 08, 2010, 04:10 PM
We want to fight with the siege weapons against units in InJinya or do I see this wrong?
trebs are better in this situation best with CR, I think they 've ~50 % against normal mace at best. So 1 or 2 'll be lost for knocking, the best is the collateral damage.

The counterattack 'll go from 2 tiles range. So we couldn't attack their units. But better you decide.

OK - I'll stick with trebs.

btw last idea.
Perhaps we need a second spy there, he can go in turn 131 at mariner and in 133 in Injinya. That should we do, for 2. turn revolt, enough EsP we 've.

OK I will see about moving the spy and Mariner. Unless there are other concerns, I'll play the turn in 2 hours.

Update: Turn played. I'll post a report in a few hours. CDZ captured a Merlot city.

Trystero
Dec 09, 2010, 01:26 PM
I posted a report in the Turn Tracker thread: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9990618#post9990618

Update: Quatronia's Galleon's are NW of Iron City and are empty. I can't see their troops. Also, we are number 2 in Soldiers according to the Demo screen.

HUSch
Dec 09, 2010, 01:57 PM
:goodjob:


How can you see the ships are empty? In vanilla you could see troops on ships, in BtS not.

Trystero
Dec 09, 2010, 02:05 PM
I thought you could see troops on ships in BtS? Hmm... Well, regardless, Injinya is still there for the taking.

HUSch
Dec 09, 2010, 03:03 PM
Do you think we can conquer it, there are many units? We can hope that Quat lands there.

Trystero
Dec 09, 2010, 03:13 PM
I will look at the situation when the next turn starts. At least I have a better idea of what's going on now after being busy most of the last week or so.

AlphaShard
Dec 09, 2010, 03:29 PM
I thought you could only see the ships and not what was loaded on them. Those troops had to have gone somewhere. Unless they all died...

AlphaShard
Dec 09, 2010, 09:20 PM
I logged in wanted to get a gander, three ships off of Iron City, pretty sure that's their new target.

Also I noticed that Juno has more experience and promotoins then Iris. Should we take Juno to the war zone and leave Iris behind?

HUSch
Dec 10, 2010, 06:05 AM
I 'll look at the game later.


for blockade the res connection:
to blockade a ship must 've mov.points, if you click blockade, the ship lost all moving points, if then you give another order, the blockade is break off and you can't blockade in this turn. So din't give another order if the ship has no moving points.

HUSch
Dec 10, 2010, 09:10 AM
Alpha you are right, Juno is better than Iris and against barbs are both the same, so we take Juno at EI1.

My proposal :
I've set a new spy in Arc, we should then build 2 turns mace/pike and then whip
In AC change every turn between hillmine and farm (I 've marked ingame).

Vega build after finishing mace the next mace,
Canopus a wb for new town,
AC a lib.

The other towns build buildings.
Rigel obs
Procyon forge
Achenar granary
new town (name!) granary

HUSch
Dec 10, 2010, 09:25 AM
Attack plan for Inj



Turn X-2 our ships at least 1 is at the tile east of OB.
Turn X-1 our units land at OB and at least 1 galleon goes back to Bode to take another units.For this our units must go from army point south.
Turn X we look how many units we 've there, and decide then. I hope for attack, but I don't know.

In Inj are in the moment 2 mace with *,melee, and they 've the first strike, we can promote 2 mace with * to get a equal chance against them, but not more, without they 've 68% (8.8 : 8.0). Additional there are cross with a good chance against melees, we 've only 1 cross. They 've no cats.

HUSch
Dec 10, 2010, 09:33 AM
In 5-6 hours we can discuss.

AlphaShard
Dec 10, 2010, 10:11 AM
Ok now I understand the confusion on the Blockade topic. So if our ships were blockading there is a good chance they could miss the opportunity to stop passing gally's if they have no movement.

As for the new city Betelgeuse is up next, also I would like to not use Beta Centuari since we already have AC. Also Quat used Cygnus so we can't :( We may have to add some more star names to the Nomenclature thread below.

As for the battle plan were going to have to use cats on the city if not bombarding them softening the troops.

Trystero
Dec 10, 2010, 12:25 PM
Attack plan for Inj



Turn X-2 our ships at least 1 is at the tile east of OB.
Turn X-1 our units land at OB and at least 1 galleon goes back to Bode to take another units.For this our units must go from army point south.
Turn X we look how many units we 've there, and decide then. I hope for attack, but I don't know.

In Inj are in the moment 2 mace with *,melee, and they 've the first strike, we can promote 2 mace with * to get a equal chance against them, but not more, without they 've 68% (8.8 : 8.0). Additional there are cross with a good chance against melees, we 've only 1 cross. They 've no cats.

We should have two crossbows when our troops load onto EI 2. I don't think we should attack until we can bring the stack of 12 units.

Also we need ~800 gold to completely research Education at 100% research. We could have that in a few turns. We should follow BLubmuz's and not research the whole tech, however.

BLubmuz
Dec 10, 2010, 12:59 PM
We should have two crossbows when our troops load onto EI 2. I don't think we should attack until we can bring the stack of 12 units.

Also we need ~800 gold to completely research Education at 100% research. We could have that in a few turns. We should follow BLubmuz's and not research the whole tech, however.Sure, i would wait to have at least 2 Xbows, possibly with Drill or one of them with Guerrilla.

Nice to see you take in count my suggestions.

But:
- We better build some library, possibly in our core and in the highest commerce cities before run 100%. Even in Rigel... Amazon will understand. If not...
- Sure we must accumulate enough gold to complete Edu with 1 turn left.
- In the meantime we can try to think to some way to stay in the ETT with Amazon only.

We did nothing diplomatically in that regard, better try to set up something. Irgy, use your well known viper side to draft a plan.

AlphaShard
Dec 10, 2010, 01:26 PM
I'm all for delaying having to hand over any more techs so banking money is more then fine with me, especially since we want to get Pyra--> US --> Buying Buildings.

We should get a Library in AC and Canopus, I believe their commerce output is good. Vega and Arcturus are our Hammer cities right now, but personally I feel every beaker counts. I do agree that Rigel is an excellent commerce city, just trying to delay the Library for a bit.

As far as CDZ and Quat go, I bet those Beserkers would have a field day with those nearly empty cities on Quat Island. Just saying.

HUSch
Dec 10, 2010, 02:08 PM
Tristero
I mean all 12 units to land the same time turn X-1, it's enough if only 1 galleon is at OB the other can best be near Gold.

I wouldn't research with more speed before we get some techs. If we break the ETTA, then not before we get Feuda

To CDZ
I don't understand, why they attack the most northern town of Merlot, For Amazon, this is a reason to consider.
Btw
You think about a war between CDZ and Quat, perhaps the CDZ 'll attack other, our land/cities has no defense against Bers.

AlphaShard
Dec 10, 2010, 02:23 PM
Castles and Walls are the only defense we would have against Beserkers. More over I want to end CDZ before they can turn those Beserkers into Riflemen with Amphibous.

Yeah I do like the idea of getting some techs from the others, that will have to be monitored carefully on who's teching so we can see if they are "milking" us. Yes I do realize they pretty much are.

HUSch
Dec 10, 2010, 03:06 PM
This turn
1. Enter moves 2 tiles W and blockade,
2. Nobody moves 2 tiles SW and blockade
3. Mariner moves 2 tiles W, 1 NW
4. Spy go at Mariner
5. EI 1 goes at Achenar, missio make religion, Juno enter EI 1 and EI 1 goes Direction Arc.
6. Settler goes at founding place, the place is choped with 1 worker (Clautius or Toch), the settler founds the city, the missio gives religion, the 2. worker goes SE and chop ( I think finish) the gain for new city/granary.
7. Both HA goes at coastal-mine south of Sirius.
8. The healed mace from Arc goes "army point"
9. the new mace from Vega goes to "army point n Arc" on the way to army point
10. EI 2 goes at Tile SW of army point (is marked Turn 131 EI2), Astrea, Thor goes on board additional Orion next turn, and 1 unit treb or mace; I think we need a 3. treb.

11. the worker at Bode: HH farms, LP roads. Next turn we 'll move "army point" to south

The other units from Army point going south, Pike from Arc goes at army point.

I think there is no unit without order

Expedition corps
5 maces ( 2 with CR, 1 with * CR, 1 with 3/2, 1 with nothing)
2 cross ( 1 with 3/2, 1 with 1/2)
2 pikes ( 1 with *, 1 with 3/2)
3 Trebs with 3/2

We 've good defense against eles, but there is only 1 ele. Now we 've the possibility to change the Pike (with 3/2) against a mace (with 0/2). Do we want that? If yes, Nob must rest this turn, the pike goes at land and the mace (as ordered above) goes from army point south to go at Nob next turn.

Please make comments, I'm not competent enough to make decisions about warfare, I can only make proposals and give ideas (from my experience in other DGs, you must decide.

Now is turn 130, the last units go turn 131 on board, so we can land the troops turn 132 and attack turn is 133.

We 've also now X-3

HUSch
Dec 10, 2010, 03:11 PM
Alpha
Do you think we should build castles? there are cheap for us (with stone) and give an additional trade way. Quat build one in one of their city (we gave them stone), I 've seen.

I think our best defense are EI against them til chemistry (frigate).

BLubmuz
Dec 10, 2010, 03:53 PM
Castles and Walls are the only defense we would have against Beserkers. More over I want to end CDZ before they can turn those Beserkers into Riflemen with Amphibous.

Yeah I do like the idea of getting some techs from the others, that will have to be monitored carefully on who's teching so we can see if they are "milking" us. Yes I do realize they pretty much are.Frigates are the best defense against Berserkers. Tons of them. For now, a couple of EI can deal with any Galleon. But we can't keep our coastal cities (read: all our cities) defended by warriors or archers, sure like hell.

I repeat: we got the best naval unit until combustion. Let's build more of them, they can be used as frigates until we can have those.

And don't forget that galleons can pillage our precious nets.

US as civic? not much convinced of that.

HUSch
Dec 10, 2010, 03:59 PM
Blub
what is your opinion about the second pike above
We 've good defense against eles, but there is only 1 ele. Now we 've the possibility to change the Pike (with 3/2) against a mace (with 0/2). Do we want that? If yes, Nob must rest this turn, the pike goes at land and the mace (as ordered above) goes from army point south to go at Nob next turn.

HUSch
Dec 10, 2010, 04:10 PM
Quat lands near Iron, when they remain there few turns then our landing 'll be lucky.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=275165&stc=1&d=1292022588

BLubmuz
Dec 10, 2010, 04:53 PM
Blub
what is your opinion about the second pike aboveIf they have only 1 WE, 1 pike is enough. But after unloaded the units, the EIs must blockade to avoid they can build more. Next turn i think Iron city will fall (not sure, they lack siege and Mavs have Xbows), so a blockade can be done by 2 EIs, maybe even 1. They also will guarantee Mavs won't move their galleys out of the port.

If Quat (right?) will take Iron city, we must run to take Mavs' Capital. But i think that Maces vs. Xbows without siege will not be easy.
I've noticed some injured unit, so maybe they changed their target for our same reason.

In any case, bring as many reiforcements you can, we must avoid any problem in that island. And they can be used later on Mavs' spire.

AlphaShard
Dec 10, 2010, 06:38 PM
The reason I want Universal Suffrage is to buy building improvements for our cities, banking gold in doing so and drawing out the getting techs from our "allys". Also the +1 hammer from Towns isn't bad either especially when combined with the Dikes.

We weren't planing on continuing to only defend cities with Warriors and Archers. If were to keep any units away we will need a huge navy, so I can see Police state being handy for that. I just like to cover all bases, sure stopping the boats before they get to the cities IS the best defense but why not ensure we cover all bases? Castles are good until gunpowder and at the rate of non-teching it seems that may be awhile off.

Trystero
Dec 11, 2010, 12:14 AM
Sorry guys - I didn't realize we were so close to the cutoff and was busy with real life commitments. I did not get a chance to play this turn prior to the deadline.

AlphaShard
Dec 11, 2010, 12:50 AM
I could have played the turn.

Trystero
Dec 11, 2010, 12:58 AM
Yeah - sorry. I wasn't even near a computer where I could let anybody know I was busy. And I thought I would have enough time when I got home.

Sorry again.

AlphaShard
Dec 11, 2010, 01:37 AM
CAn we talk to a Mod about this? Slaze usually plays the last few hours.

Trystero
Dec 11, 2010, 01:45 AM
I doubt they'd be sympathetic. The rules were pretty clear. It was our (my) fault for not preparing a contingency plan. Sorry again - I haven't adjusted to the smaller time slots, and was waiting to play later in the turn so we had a chance for more input. I've been preoccupied with work and family stuff with the holidays coming up, and didn't realize that much time had run off the clock.

HUSch
Dec 11, 2010, 02:31 AM
Cost a turn, not so good, but better we make a mistake now, than later. Perhaps it's lucky it'll give Mav a chance to move units to Iron. The biggest disadvantage is the not blockade.

Blub
1 ship can blockade all res, the next 2 turns it 'll be a galleon than Mariner after landing the spy.

Most of my post above, is right for this turn also.


btw
What should we do against the problem Tristero

AlphaShard
Dec 11, 2010, 02:54 AM
Next time I will play the turn.

AlphaShard
Dec 11, 2010, 10:42 AM
Ok Slaze has not logged in yet, I PMed Daveshack and he suggested playing the turn anyways or posting in the thread. I posted in the game tracking thread.

I think if we play our turn before Slaze even logs in were ok.

AlphaShard
Dec 11, 2010, 11:32 AM
Ok I did most of the following except 1 and 2 since that would really be war moves and that seems to be the real issue with this splitting the time. I settled the G city since that has nothing to do with the war (directly) now we have Betalguse which was next on the names list. I settled the missionaries again not war involved.

I also did not load units on wounded EI, it probably won't matter since we can load and move next turn.

On point 11, HH wasn't active but LP was and is roading.


This turn
1. Enter moves 2 tiles W and blockade,
2. Nobody moves 2 tiles SW and blockade
3. Mariner moves 2 tiles W, 1 NW
4. Spy go at Mariner
5. EI 1 goes at Achenar, missio make religion, Juno enter EI 1 and EI 1 goes Direction Arc.
6. Settler goes at founding place, the place is choped with 1 worker (Clautius or Toch), the settler founds the city, the missio gives religion, the 2. worker goes SE and chop ( I think finish) the gain for new city/granary.
7. Both HA goes at coastal-mine south of Sirius.
8. The healed mace from Arc goes "army point"
9. the new mace from Vega goes to "army point n Arc" on the way to army point
10. EI 2 goes at Tile SW of army point (is marked Turn 131 EI2), Astrea, Thor goes on board additional Orion next turn, and 1 unit treb or mace; I think we need a 3. treb.

11. the worker at Bode: HH farms, LP roads. Next turn we 'll move "army point" to south


Bold is actions taken.

Trystero
Dec 11, 2010, 11:59 AM
Thanks AlphaShard!

HUSch
Dec 11, 2010, 12:57 PM
Ok Slaze has not logged in yet, I PMed Daveshack and he suggested playing the turn anyways or posting in the thread. I posted in the game tracking thread.

I think if we play our turn before Slaze even logs in were ok.
Thx
We need only more time

I 'll look now and made then suggestions for the next turn.

HUSch
Dec 11, 2010, 01:26 PM
Attack management
Turn X-2
Nob: the pike lands SE, Nob goes N and cross goes on board, Nob goes 3* SW (tile E of Gold)
Enter goes at tile E of OB
EI 2 get 3 mace and treb and goes 3* SW (same tile as Nob) and blockade
Mariner goes 3*SW and spy goes on land

So
turn X-1
all units can land at OB, spy goes to Injinya and Enter goes NE, another galleon or mariner can blockade.

Trystero
Dec 12, 2010, 02:30 AM
OK - a new turn is up. I will pay attention this time.

Attack management
Turn X-2
Nob: the pike lands SE, Nob goes N and cross goes on board, Nob goes 3* SW (tile E of Gold)
Enter goes at tile E of OB
EI 2 get 3 mace and treb and goes 3* SW (same tile as Nob) and blockade
Mariner goes 3*SW and spy goes on land


All these moves have been made. All that remains is some worker micro, I believe. I will check in again in 12 hours (about 12 pm U.S. Pacific time [GMT -7]). We should still have 4 or 5 hours on the clock at that point.

BLubmuz
Dec 12, 2010, 04:08 AM
I connected to the game to take a look.
First, good move to keep the units on Enterprise while waiting to unload the 2 incoming EIs. They are well assorted enough to be safe. We can move the troops at army point as South as possible to try to speed the EIs to ferry them to "India".

On a more far perspective, i see 3 more cities in Bode:
first, 1W of the mace on desert and the fort is a good idea
2nd, 1N of the SW corner (where is the lone pike). To be sure i 'm clear 1 SW of copper
3rd, 4E of that corner (or 1NE of the mostwestern clams)
those cites will have some overlap, but we're not playing a time game, right?

Library after the WB on Canopus, please, that HA can be better produced elsewhere.

Then, i think it's better we inform Amazon that Rigel is expanding its 3rd ring and that we'll build a library there. No reason to waste research just because we're creative. They have had huge benefits from our research, let's remember to them.
So we can start speaking also about the ETT, which is producing no techs in a long time. War or not, i feel they're waiting we research Edu to steal us Lib, or just to let us spend our gold on research while they're upgrading units.

HUSch
Dec 12, 2010, 06:00 AM
Ama found a city near Rigel, next turn we 've a cult. exp there (101/100)
I think we should say, that we build after obs a lib there. I would like to whip the obs in 4 turns for pop 2, with the overlay build the lib.


http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=275378&stc=1&d=1292158089

Our units can now rest at hill-road, when LP has roaded the coastal tile, can the units from there go in 1 turn on board, and the new army point is in our culture (no foreign cost)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=275380&stc=1&d=1292158604

HUSch
Dec 12, 2010, 06:10 AM
For worker at Sol
Pindi should go east and road (the silk-forest is a good tile in the moment), Toch at roaded hill and mine, next turn 'll Claudius help.

HUSch
Dec 12, 2010, 07:40 AM
I 've made some test-combats.
Our trebs fight first and make collateral defects, we need the cross with free promotion to fight against the Mavs cross. It isn't good to promote him with guerilla, we need him for attack with *. A Mav crross has against cross with * at hill <25%, so I think they will not attack, other units 've lower chance. But we 've only a small chance, with our units to win.
After the trebs our 1. cross (with *) 've only ~46 %. And we 've only 9 attacker against 7+ defender (after building a cross this turn).

BLubmuz
Dec 12, 2010, 08:01 AM
I 've made some test-combats.
Our trebs fight first and make collateral defects, we need the cross with free promotion to fight against the Mavs cross. It isn't good to promote him with guerilla, we need him for attack with *. A Mav crross has against cross with * at hill <25%, so I think they will not attack, other units 've lower chance. But we 've only a small chance, with our units to win.
After the trebs our 1. cross (with *) 've only ~46 %. And we 've only 9 attacker against 7+ defender (after building a cross this turn).I don't think that use a Cross for attack a city is a good idea, because:
- We need him at full health to defend the stack
- usually, despite the bonus against melee, maces are better in attacking cities, mainly for the CR promo (and they got 8 base vs. 6 of a cross).
- My experience tells me Cross are great in the field, but not as attackers, if not for mop up.
Much will depend from how many damage our trebs can do. But you need a turn to bombard the defenses first. That city is at 60%. Is not important arrive to 0, but at least around 20%.
And fortify the non-siege units, it's not much but every bit can make a difference.

Last, they are better promoted to drill instead of combat. If they can arrive to drill 3 they are an hell of a unit.

AlphaShard
Dec 12, 2010, 10:08 AM
I think giving them guerrilla was to defend against the Mace on the hill so that our Mace don't have to fight the enemy Mace.

AlphaShard
Dec 12, 2010, 11:46 AM
So will Pindicator Plantation that last silk?

HUSch
Dec 12, 2010, 11:57 AM
Yes, Pindi can also plant, if we want a plant


I 've made a plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10001676&postcount=163) for Betei in MM-fred, first work at silk, then at mine, with building the granary at fish.

HUSch
Dec 12, 2010, 12:30 PM
Alpha
the cross needs no guerilla, because he has at hill more then enough defense, because the cross of Mavs 've all defense-promotion.


There is the gap with only too few units at the moment (i would like to have few siege weapons more), I don't see that Quat is making an attempt to attack without siege weapons, against cross with CityDefense2 the mace 've not enough power.

We can look this turn, then land and the next turn to fight, if they don't whip cats, perhaps we should wait for few cats more. Additional I consider to whip the cross in Arc this turn, because we get the next there quicker. I know, I'm a builder not a warmonger, I play the war not with enough strength. Half of our Produce is building, not units.

AlphaShard
Dec 12, 2010, 12:37 PM
Alpha
the cross needs no guerilla, because he has at hill more then enough defense, because the cross of Mavs 've all defense-promotion.


There is the gap with only too few units at the moment (i would like to have few siege weapons more), I don't see that Quat is making an attempt to attack without siege weapons, against cross with CityDefense2 the mace 've not enough power.

We can look this turn, then land and the next turn to fight, if they don't whip cats, perhaps we should wait for few cats more. Additional I consider to whip the cross in Arc this turn, because we get the next there quicker. I know, I'm a builder not a warmonger, I play the war not with enough strength. Half of our Produce is building, not units.

It's not the Cross I was worried about defending against. The Cross with Geurilla was to defend against the Mace.

AlphaShard
Dec 12, 2010, 01:08 PM
So we have two trebs and 5 cats? That should be more then enough to soften up the forces of both Injinya and their capital.

Also someone researched Divine Right last turn and got Islam.

HUSch
Dec 12, 2010, 02:20 PM
The mace has no win chance against a cross at hill, so at hill we need no additional promotion. We can look during the fight about the best promotion.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=275414&stc=1&d=1292188635

CDZ said they research DR.

HUSch
Dec 12, 2010, 02:24 PM
Do we haven't 3 trebs at OB, with 2 there is no chance.

Alpha
We fight against cross with 2 city-defense, injured 4/6 they 've a good chance (>50%) against our maces with CR.

AlphaShard
Dec 12, 2010, 02:51 PM
7 sacrifical cat/treb is more then enough. Heck we only need 2-3 per city and were aiming to take two.

HUSch
Dec 12, 2010, 03:04 PM
In the game I 've used Tristeros Testgame and build the situation of our attack force and the defender, for their fortified strenght I 've give them **.
Test the combat Alpha, you 'll see, how many units we lost.

AlphaShard
Dec 12, 2010, 03:39 PM
Okay going with your posted save I've taken the city.

I lost one mace total.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=275420&stc=1&d=1292193504

Lord Parkin
Dec 12, 2010, 04:44 PM
Only just noticed these posts. :)
I'm starting to think we should actually assign a single, multi-player experienced turn player for making war related moves. I might be getting the wrong impression from being a little removed from things, but it feels like we're sending our units in circles and getting nowhere because we don't agree on anything and are switching back and forth between plans.

I'm not saying go as far as running ourselves like Merlot, even though it seems to be working for them, because that's not the team we signed up for. But having a general with responsibility and the final say would probably be an improvement.
I think i agree with Irgy about the "general". Anyone volunteers?

I already said i'm good in solo, but a noob in multi, so i don't think i can qualify for this.

BTW, is LP almost out of the fold? I never seen a post from him regarding MM or the war or anything else. And the ton of other members who signed for this team?
The Sirius intra-team game has finished, so hopefull Lord Parkin will have more time for the demo game itself.
I do indeed have a bit more time now that the Sirius intra-team game is done. Also, a 32-player 5-round knockout tournament I was involved with at the German civ site just recently finished after I won the final match, leaving me with more spare time as well.

I know I've been out of the loop for a long time, but if it's okay with everyone I'd be happy to step back into this game in the role of an advice-giving "general", if you want that. I could even start moving the units in the game once I get back up to speed, if that isn't stepping on anyone's toes. Most of you are probably aware that I'm reasonably experienced with multiplayer wars - the main issue for me until recently has been a lack of time to get much involved with this game. (Fighting Irgy and his team in the Warmup game has been taking 2-3 hours a day alone. ;) )

I should mention that I'll have limited access from the 18th over the Christmas-New Year period, but I presume the game will be slowed or paused over that time anyway since most people tend to be away or busy. Up until Christmas I should still be around semi-regularly, and from the new year I'll be around regularly again.

Anyway, I look forward to getting back into this game, in whatever role you guys prefer. I'll log into the game soon to check out what the current situation is - been a long time since I've even taken a peek. :)

Irgy
Dec 12, 2010, 05:06 PM
Good to hear LP.

Alphashard: If you have time, try the test more than once, and tell us also what order you used the units. You might be using a better attack order. Also, are the unit fortify bonuses are correct in that save (the one you get for staying still for up to 5 turns)?

If we're losing less units in total than they are, then we're ahead. As long as we won't die to a counterattack anyway - but at least against a counterattack we get the advantage of choosing the counter unit and defending on a hill. There were some healthy units left in that screenshot which is a good sign.

Then, i think it's better we inform Amazon that Rigel is expanding its 3rd ring and that we'll build a library there. No reason to waste research just because we're creative. They have had huge benefits from our research, let's remember to them.

Please put things like this in the amazon diplomacy discussion if you really want a response, I nearly missed it here among everything else. From what I can see in the turn tracker thread screenshot, Amazon have a settler there (just in time). They'll have a few turns of our culture hammering them until they can get a library and expand to their second ring, at which point the 20 bonus culture on the inner ring will at least stop their city from flipping. It's particularly important then that we don't build a library in Rigel yet, so that they can set the city up without it flipping. It's not just to slow down Rigel's third ring but to reduce the amount of catching up they need to do to hold their own city. We will build a library there once doing so doesn't prevent Amazon holding on to their city.

I'd just like to say, Amazon are not telling us what to build and where to settle as people have been suggesting, we are telling them where to settle. It is perfectly reasonable that we make some effort not to culture flip the cities that we've told them to build. We're getting out of this deal a good chunk of land on Anjennida without having had to race to settle it. We might not be making the most of creative by holding back on culture, but they also haven't made the most of imperialistic by holding back on settling the whole thing before we had a chance to.

Lord Parkin
Dec 12, 2010, 05:32 PM
Okay, I have a few thoughts and questions upon logging into the game... forgive me if there are blindingly obvious answers in some other thread, I haven't had much time to catch up yet. Also please forgive if some of these comments would be better placed in other threads - I just thought it'd be easier to keep everything together. :)

- Why hasn't our capital (or anyone else) built the Great Library? I would have thought this would be top priority for us, given our Academy and access to Marble. Also surprised National Epic isn't up yet, it's quite a powerful tool.

- We should really try to get a 10 XP unit as soon as possible for the Heroic Epic. It isn't that hard to do, but it'll really hurt us if we still don't have it once Mav/Merlot is gone and the tides turn. Could potentially even cost us the game (Heroic Epic is really that good when properly placed early enough).

- What's with all the Spies? What are we planning on using them for? Not sure how much use they're realistically going to be this early in the game against a backwards opponent who seems fairly likely to fold in the not-too-distant future. It's usually better, in my opinion at least, to save them for later when we're fighting rivals on a more even ground (after Merlot/Mav are gone). But maybe there's something I'm missing here... please let me know!

More general housekeeping issues:

- Vega should really build a Lighthouse ASAP... it's cheap and gives a nice instant food boost. Other than that, it's a good military production city.

- Alpha Centauri doesn't need an Aqueduct right now (queued up). A Lighthouse would be useful there, though.

- Get chopping those forests around Betelgeuse ASAP! Surprised most of them weren't chopped already for the capital, actually, but never mind.

- Rigel doesn't really need an Observatory right now, and I can't quite see why this was prioritised over a Library either (which is cheaper and better). A Lighthouse would be good there though.

- Achernar should really be working the Clam and not the Horse (presume this was to get the Granary built, but the overflow will do that this turn regardless, so better to work the Clam). Lighthouse and Forge are the obvious buildings next.

- Procyon needs a Work Boat for that Clam ASAP. It also needs a Lighthouse.

- Arcturus could use a Lighthouse too. Also, quite a lot of forests here that could do with being chopped ASAP. We're a little bit thin on Workers in this area, perhaps another one or two wouldn't hurt either.

Anyway, that's about all I found with one brief look. I think my most general overall comment would be that with the current tech/alliance situation, it seems best for us at the moment to stop concentrating on building any unnecessary buildings, and instead concentrate on Settlers/growth and military.

With regards to cities: there are at least two excellent city spots south of Arcturus, and we should fill them ASAP (I'm assuming that nobody else has laid claim to that land - it's closest to us after all). Our economy can more than support multiple new cities, and at the present point in the game hammers are far more valuable than beakers or gold, so we need to get ahead in this respect. A few well-placed new cities will help. Growing our existing cities will also help (some of them seem to be stagnant when they have enough happiness to easily grow a lot more).

With regards to military: we should pretty much be working towards simply building Barracks everywhere and starting to pump out units like crazy. We're going to need these units at some point or other, and it's better that we're prepared ahead of time than taken by surprise. To be perfectly honest, our military is rather mediocre at the moment, and it's spread paper-thin... I'd hate to see a surprise attack cripple us in the near future.

Please don't take offence at any of my suggestions - I may not be seeing the bigger picture, these are just initial impressions upon viewing the game for the first time in a long while. Getting answers will help me to get a feel for the game again though. :)

AlphaShard
Dec 12, 2010, 06:40 PM
- Why hasn't our capital (or anyone else) built the Great Library? I would have thought this would be top priority for us, given our Academy and access to Marble. Also surprised National Epic isn't up yet, it's quite a powerful tool.


You are right that they are very good for teching but there is an issue with that, which I will address below to your ETTT alliance. Perhaps we can focus on those soon, we should build more GP, especially the Great Scientists.


- We should really try to get a 10 XP unit as soon as possible for the Heroic Epic. It isn't that hard to do, but it'll really hurt us if we still don't have it once Mav/Merlot is gone and the tides turn. Could potentially even cost us the game (Heroic Epic is really that good when properly placed early enough).


This should be possible to do, we may have to even switch to Theocracy and Vassalage to do it.


- What's with all the Spies? What are we planning on using them for? Not sure how much use they're realistically going to be this early in the game against a backwards opponent who seems fairly likely to fold in the not-too-distant future. It's usually better, in my opinion at least, to save them for later when we're fighting rivals on a more even ground (after Merlot/Mav are gone). But maybe there's something I'm missing here... please let me know!


The Spies are being sent to Inyjina and the Capital to incite revolts so we don't have to bombard the cities.

More general housekeeping issues:

- Vega should really build a Lighthouse ASAP... it's cheap and gives a nice instant food boost. Other than that, it's a good military production city.


This is why I had the worker make a Farm, I knew this city was going to need food to feed all the mines and Workshops.

- Alpha Centauri doesn't need an Aqueduct right now (queued up). A Lighthouse would be useful there, though.

It's at it's Health cap right now, I would have put in a Harbor but now we have actual hammers into the Aquduct (27) hate to waste them.


- Get chopping those forests around Betelgeuse ASAP! Surprised most of them weren't chopped already for the capital, actually, but never mind.

The Workers have been focused else where.

- Rigel doesn't really need an Observatory right now, and I can't quite see why this was prioritised over a Library either (which is cheaper and better). A Lighthouse would be good there though.

Please see Irgy's above post (the one above yours) he explains why were building an Observatory over a Library. To sum up though, were trying to keep Amazon as an Ally.

- Achernar should really be working the Clam and not the Horse (presume this was to get the Granary built, but the overflow will do that this turn regardless, so better to work the Clam). Lighthouse and Forge are the obvious buildings next.

I'll let Husch argue this one. *heh*

- Procyon needs a Work Boat for that Clam ASAP. It also needs a Lighthouse.


Already addressed, I fixed the queue.


- Arcturus could use a Lighthouse too. Also, quite a lot of forests here that could do with being chopped ASAP. We're a little bit thin on Workers in this area, perhaps another one or two wouldn't hurt either.

We've been focusing on the military units but I think we can squeeze out a worker or two somehow.

Anyway, that's about all I found with one brief look. I think my most general overall comment would be that with the current tech/alliance situation, it seems best for us at the moment to stop concentrating on building any unnecessary buildings, and instead concentrate on Settlers/growth and military.


Now with regards to the Tech Alliance we've come to the decision that we no longer feel that it really benefits us. Unfortunately declaring that it's over tips our hand immediately and we think it better to draw this out. First we've stopped teching to load up on gold and as you mentioned we need to build buildings, this is why I want to use Universal Suffrage plus our stocking up on gold to buy said buildings.

We don't wish to hand over any more techs to the others as it has become clear that this Tech Alliance has NOT giving us an edge over Mav/Mer. So were trying to delay breaking this Tech alliance to prevent us from getting dogpiled, getting whatever techs we can get and making our cities stronger for when we do have to face Quat and CDZ.


With regards to cities: there are at least two excellent city spots south of Arcturus, and we should fill them ASAP (I'm assuming that nobody else has laid claim to that land - it's closest to us after all). Our economy can more than support multiple new cities, and at the present point in the game hammers are far more valuable than beakers or gold, so we need to get ahead in this respect. A few well-placed new cities will help. Growing our existing cities will also help (some of them seem to be stagnant when they have enough happiness to easily grow a lot more).


There's actually alot of land down there so where to place cities is a bit debatable, I'll include a screencap of spots (A,B, & C?)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=275439&stc=1&d=1292204132


With regards to military: we should pretty much be working towards simply building Barracks everywhere and starting to pump out units like crazy. We're going to need these units at some point or other, and it's better that we're prepared ahead of time than taken by surprise. To be perfectly honest, our military is rather mediocre at the moment, and it's spread paper-thin... I'd hate to see a surprise attack cripple us in the near future.


I thought we were doing that, Vega and Arcturus have been our main military builders since they have so much Hammers, Procyon is being developed and Rigel needs workshops to produce units. Our Sol Cities should all have Barracks already (ok we just settled Betalgeuse, and Sirius has been building other things.


Please don't take offence at any of my suggestions - I may not be seeing the bigger picture, these are just initial impressions upon viewing the game for the first time in a long while. Getting answers will help me to get a feel for the game again though. :)

No problem.

Lord Parkin
Dec 12, 2010, 07:03 PM
You are right that they are very good for teching but there is an issue with that, which I will address below to your ETTT alliance. Perhaps we can focus on those soon, we should build more GP, especially the Great Scientists.
Well that's the thing, once the ETTT is done the Great Library will still continue to be of use with the extra science and (more importantly) great people. Although at this point we're already fairly far into the tech tree, and it isn't that long until the Great Library will obsolete anyway.

The Spies are being sent to Inyjina and the Capital to incite revolts so we don't have to bombard the cities.
Okay, makes some sense then.

This is why I had the worker make a Farm, I knew this city was going to need food to feed all the mines and Workshops.
Right, but the Lighthouse will still give +1 food on top of whatever else we have. Never say no to a (cheap) free food per turn. :)

It's at it's Health cap right now, I would have put in a Harbor but now we have actual hammers into the Aquduct (27) hate to waste them.
Right, but no need to complete the Aqueduct until the turn that we grow to the next size. And even then, are we sure we can't hook up or trade for a new health resource (which is more efficient)?

Please see Irgy's above post (the one above yours) he explains why were building an Observatory over a Library. To sum up though, were trying to keep Amazon as an Ally.
If it's about the 2 culture per turn, that seems ridiculously nit-picky of them. But personally, I'd say if they won't "let" us build a Library, then just forget it and start building Barracks/military. Little point in going for the Observatory with the city's current size and hammer output, it's just not worth it.

We've been focusing on the military units but I think we can squeeze out a worker or two somehow.
Okay, good. The numbers in general seem decent, but we still could use a couple more Workers overall, especially since we're planning on founding new cities soon.

Now with regards to the Tech Alliance we've come to the decision that we no longer feel that it really benefits us. Unfortunately declaring that it's over tips our hand immediately and we think it better to draw this out. First we've stopped teching to load up on gold and as you mentioned we need to build buildings, this is why I want to use Universal Suffrage plus our stocking up on gold to buy said buildings.
Okay, makes sense. I'd wholeheartedly agree that it doesn't benefit us to keep teching at full rate ourselves, especially if no-one else is. I get the impression our allies have rather been taking advantage of us and our higher science rate, while they get to build up their cities and units.

We don't wish to hand over any more techs to the others as it has become clear that this Tech Alliance has NOT giving us an edge over Mav/Mer. So were trying to delay breaking this Tech alliance to prevent us from getting dogpiled, getting whatever techs we can get and making our cities stronger for when we do have to face Quat and CDZ.
Rifling will give a definite edge over Mav/Merlot once it's reached, but it certainly won't help us if everyone else in the game has it. Anyway, delaying any notice of our intentions seems to make sense.

There's actually alot of land down there so where to place cities is a bit debatable, I'll include a screencap of spots (A,B, & C?)
Seems pretty decent. B is an excellent spot, and A is also pretty good. C doesn't really seem worth prioritising at the moment, although it could be a decent filler city later.

I thought we were doing that, Vega and Arcturus have been our main military builders since they have so much Hammers, Procyon is being developed and Rigel needs workshops to produce units. Our Sol Cities should all have Barracks already (ok we just settled Betalgeuse, and Sirius has been building other things.
Yeah, it seems like a good start, but we need to continue in that direction. Especially get the Heroic Epic up in either Vega or Arcturus (will have to check out which is better) - again getting back to needing a 10 XP unit soon. That'll almost double the unit output from whatever city it's in - no small thing!

Thanks for the reply - a bit of discussion really helps to get me up to speed quickly. :)

AlphaShard
Dec 12, 2010, 07:31 PM
Well that's the thing, once the ETTT is done the Great Library will still continue to be of use with the extra science and (more importantly) great people. Although at this point we're already fairly far into the tech tree, and it isn't that long until the Great Library will obsolete anyway.


Yeah isn't Scientific Method the one that does it? I know that Tech takes out ALOT of things.


Right, but the Lighthouse will still give +1 food on top of whatever else we have. Never say no to a (cheap) free food per turn. :)


I did suggest lighthouses and was told it wasn't needed.


Right, but no need to complete the Aqueduct until the turn that we grow to the next size. And even then, are we sure we can't hook up or trade for a new health resource (which is more efficient)?


Yeah we can put off the Aqueduct though it will get hammer decay.


If it's about the 2 culture per turn, that seems ridiculously nit-picky of them. But personally, I'd say if they won't "let" us build a Library, then just forget it and start building Barracks/military. Little point in going for the Observatory with the city's current size and hammer output, it's just not worth it.


More like 5 culture when added to the current +3 that is in there already. Again it's more of a goodwill thing


Okay, makes sense. I'd wholeheartedly agree that it doesn't benefit us to keep teching at full rate ourselves, especially if no-one else is. I get the impression our allies have rather been taking advantage of us and our higher science rate, while they get to build up their cities and units.

This is one of the biggest reasons we're done with this Tech trading.


Rifling will give a definite edge over Mav/Merlot once it's reached, but it certainly won't help us if everyone else in the game has it. Anyway, delaying any notice of our intentions seems to make sense.

Problem is there Teching has kept them keeping their military units compreamble to our own. The last thing I want is for CDZ to get Rifiling, can you imagine those Beserkers becoming Riflemen with Amphious.

Irgy
Dec 12, 2010, 08:11 PM
- Why hasn't our capital (or anyone else) built the Great Library? I would have thought this would be top priority for us, given our Academy and access to Marble. Also surprised National Epic isn't up yet, it's quite a powerful tool.

Basically, as AlphaShard has been saying, the tragedy of the commons has hit the ETTT, and no-one is doing any research if they can help it. The library provides nothing but research which we're currently giving away to our long term rivals, and burns up our great person slots. By the time we have the benefits of the library to ourselves (or at least ourselves and Amazon) it will probably be obsolete.

This isn't a good situation, but that's the short version of why no library. It's also that we've been constantly behind in development and military, partly because of our earlier research focus, and have been focusing our resources on catching up on those fronts.

The other literature buildings are probably mostly just suffering no-one having thought about them much yet. The Heroic in particular will be particularly good on this really quite small map.

If it's about the 2 culture per turn, that seems ridiculously nit-picky of them.

Yes and you're not the first person to say this believe me :) If you see the exasperated tone of the last part of my most recent post you'll see what I mean. Basically though there's two reasons it's happening.
1. Amazon could never accept our perfectly reasonable dotmap on face value without making us give some sort of ground, and this was what we wore them down to.
2. They have a city location planned that will be under direct culture pressure from Rigel soon. If they can't keep that city they're going to want something in return for it and it won't be likely to be something less valuable than the library we're (temporarily) not buliding.

Their demand was the broader and therefore less nitpicky "no culture buildings on Anjennida". We haven't agreed to quite that, but just to avoid pure culture buildings like cathedrals, and wait until they have culture buildings of their own before getting the incidental culture buildings like libraries and universities. The library in Rigel just seems to be the main point of contention within this team.

AlphaShard
Dec 12, 2010, 08:22 PM
Yeah they demanded Rigel, we obviously said no. Rigel is such a powerful city that I want the corresponding Poison City on the Mav spoke which is funny enough settled in the same corresponding location to be just like Rigel.

Lord Parkin
Dec 12, 2010, 08:48 PM
Basically, as AlphaShard has been saying, the tragedy of the commons has hit the ETTT, and no-one is doing any research if they can help it. The library provides nothing but research which we're currently giving away to our long term rivals, and burns up our great person slots. By the time we have the benefits of the library to ourselves (or at least ourselves and Amazon) it will probably be obsolete.
Hmm, I can see the dilemma there. I guess it should have been more expressedly agreed in the first place that everyone must contribute an equivalent number of beakers to the alliance. A "free for all" would probably have worked fine in a 3-3 situation, but with 4-2 it probably wasn't the best choice. Never mind.

You know, there is a way around it though. The Great Library + National Epic would still provide us with a good benefit for a while (we just avoid Scientific Method for as long as possible), and we can get around the problem of the tech stalemate by simply researching one thing to near-completion, then switching to something else. That way we never complete anything so we don't have to give anything to anyone, but as soon as the ETTT folds, we get a bunch of new techs all at once. :)

As for the Great People we get, they belong to us. The other teams don't have any right to tell us what to do with them, and if they bug us about them then we can easily point out the flawed logic (e.g. why don't they use their own great people to help out the alliance).

This isn't a good situation, but that's the short version of why no library. It's also that we've been constantly behind in development and military, partly because of our earlier research focus, and have been focusing our resources on catching up on those fronts.
Okay, good to know. At least we're recognising the error now and correcting for it before it's too late, though. :)

The other literature buildings are probably mostly just suffering no-one having thought about them much yet. The Heroic in particular will be particularly good on this really quite small map.
Indeed, it will. Let's make that a priority in the near future.

Yes and you're not the first person to say this believe me :) If you see the exasperated tone of the last part of my most recent post you'll see what I mean. Basically though there's two reasons it's happening.
1. Amazon could never accept our perfectly reasonable dotmap on face value without making us give some sort of ground, and this was what we wore them down to.
2. They have a city location planned that will be under direct culture pressure from Rigel soon. If they can't keep that city they're going to want something in return for it and it won't be likely to be something less valuable than the library we're (temporarily) not buliding.
I'll have a read of the diplomacy threads soon then.

Their demand was the broader and therefore less nitpicky "no culture buildings on Anjennida". We haven't agreed to quite that, but just to avoid pure culture buildings like cathedrals, and wait until they have culture buildings of their own before getting the incidental culture buildings like libraries and universities. The library in Rigel just seems to be the main point of contention within this team.
Ah, right. Well then, the gist of it sounds like AMAZON is being a bit unreasonable, but for now we'll have to deal with this. However, building an Observatory in Rigel wasn't the best solution, I think. Better to go the Barracks/unit route if we can't build the Library, rather than building an expensive and not really needed Observatory. We'll need those units sooner rather than later. Perhaps finish the Observatory now that we're this far into it, but probably best to avoid buildings for a while after that I think.

AlphaShard
Dec 12, 2010, 09:13 PM
Hmm, I can see the dilemma there. I guess it should have been more expressedly agreed in the first place that everyone must contribute an equivalent number of beakers to the alliance. A "free for all" would probably have worked fine in a 3-3 situation, but with 4-2 it probably wasn't the best choice. Never mind.


Ah they didn't like that idea at all when we first brought it up, that a beaker for beaker trade was too restricting and untrusting. I didn't like it then and now I can see why.


You know, there is a way around it though. The Great Library + National Epic would still provide us with a good benefit for a while (we just avoid Scientific Method for as long as possible), and we can get around the problem of the tech stalemate by simply researching one thing to near-completion, then switching to something else. That way we never complete anything so we don't have to give anything to anyone, but as soon as the ETTT folds, we get a bunch of new techs all at once. :)


This is what Blubmuz was suggesting.


As for the Great People we get, they belong to us. The other teams don't have any right to tell us what to do with them, and if they bug us about them then we can easily point out the flawed logic (e.g. why don't they use their own great people to help out the alliance).


I meant that if we do bulbing, those techs would then have to be handed over and that's something none of us want to do anymore.


Ah, right. Well then, the gist of it sounds like AMAZON is being a bit unreasonable, but for now we'll have to deal with this. However, building an Observatory in Rigel wasn't the best solution, I think. Better to go the Barracks/unit route if we can't build the Library, rather than building an expensive and not really needed Observatory. We'll need those units sooner rather than later. Perhaps finish the Observatory now that we're this far into it, but probably best to avoid buildings for a while after that I think.

Well it's a whippable building at this point, I think it will cost 2 pop to do so. Either that or sub in the barracks, but again this city needs some more workshops.

Irgy
Dec 12, 2010, 09:15 PM
Hmm, I can see the dilemma there. I guess it should have been more expressedly agreed in the first place that everyone must contribute an equivalent number of beakers to the alliance. A "free for all" would probably have worked fine in a 3-3 situation, but with 4-2 it probably wasn't the best choice. Never mind.

You know, there is a way around it though. The Great Library + National Epic would still provide us with a good benefit for a while (we just avoid Scientific Method for as long as possible), and we can get around the problem of the tech stalemate by simply researching one thing to near-completion, then switching to something else. That way we never complete anything so we don't have to give anything to anyone, but as soon as the ETTT folds, we get a bunch of new techs all at once. :)

BLubmuz suggested something along these lines earlier. The trouble is that if any teams have enough EPs on us to see our research it will look very dodgy. Worse than Quatronia's mass warrior upgrade strategy I'm not sure but that's another issue.

As for the Great People we get, they belong to us. The other teams don't have any right to tell us what to do with them, and if they bug us about them then we can easily point out the flawed logic (e.g. why don't they use their own great people to help out the alliance).

They are ours, but my understanding is that the best use of scientists, once you have an academy in your key research city - which we do already, is to bulb technologies. Particularly technologies like Education and Liberalism. If we're not going to do that with them then at the very least we're not getting the kind of benefits that the Great Library is known for. I'm not saying I'm sure it isn't worth it, but it's not as good as it could be.

Ah, right. Well then, the gist of it sounds like AMAZON is being a bit unreasonable, but for now we'll have to deal with this. However, building an Observatory in Rigel wasn't the best solution, I think. Better to go the Barracks/unit route if we can't build the Library, rather than building an expensive and not really needed Observatory. We'll need those units sooner rather than later. Perhaps finish the Observatory now that we're this far into it, but probably best to avoid buildings for a while after that I think.

The debate over the Rigel library probably had a side effect of overinflating the perceived value of that 25% research bonus.

Irgy
Dec 12, 2010, 09:20 PM
... but again this city needs some more workshops.

I meant to ask that when I logged in a while back, why are we building pre-chemistry, non-caste-system non-state-property workshops at all? They're rubbish. Farms will give us effectively more production (via the whip) if we're that desperate for it, but I'd have thought we should be building cottages anyway. Especially on Anjennida, which is spectacular cottage land and never going to be good production.

AlphaShard
Dec 12, 2010, 09:21 PM
Yeah I thought the Observatory would be a good comprimise, get us the 25% bonus without the culture hassel. It didn't seem to be producing enough hammers to be a good military production city.

Though I do have to point out that in many of the MP games I've played being non-Cre sucks @$$. Seriously it takes forever to get a Monument going and it's never as good as that +2 :culture: Cre gets naturally. It can be a real pain especially on small maps such as this one. There probably going to have to get a Temple and Monastery going as well.

EDIT: Well when we are Guilds+Chemistry, Caste System, Leeve's it will be a +5 Hammer tile.

Irgy
Dec 12, 2010, 09:54 PM
EDIT: Well when we are Guilds+Chemistry, Caste System, Leeve's it will be a +5 Hammer tile.

And that's when we might consider building them. Currently we're none of those things and they just change it from one unimproved tile to another. Unlike cottages, you can build them when you're ready for them and they're up to speed straight away. By the time we're ready for them the workers should have next to nothing else to do - if they don't then we haven't built enough.

Even in the long run though, I wouldn't really prefer 2:food:5:hammers:1:commerce: over the 2:food:2:hammers:9:commerce: from a town, at least for our commerce cities.

Irgy
Dec 12, 2010, 10:00 PM
Yeah I thought the Observatory would be a good comprimise, get us the 25% bonus without the culture hassel. It didn't seem to be producing enough hammers to be a good military production city.

That's exactly what I mean, we were too busy thinking of it as a good compromise rather than whether it's objectively a good option. It can easily be a good compromise but still worse than the other alternatives.

Just because a city is production poor doesn't mean it shouldn't build military. Other than the one overhead cost of building a barracks, it's really all just hammers no matter what city they're in. If it will only build one unit in 10 turns then it wasn't going to build much useful infrastructure in that time either.

That said, it is a commerce city, so building commerce buildings is reasonable. It's just that Lord Parkin is saying we should be building more military everywhere.

AlphaShard
Dec 12, 2010, 10:10 PM
I'm not against building more military, just want to do it as efficiently as possible.

Trystero
Dec 13, 2010, 12:54 AM
Great to see you back, LP. It seems Irgy and AlphaShard have done a pretty good job getting you up to speed. In a way it's good that you've been absent for a while. I think we would really benefit from a fresh perspective.

I posted an update for Turn 131 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10003958#post10003958) in the Turn Tracker thread. I also summarized Mavs current military disposition on their home island. They have a number of CG2 crossbows, which seem to be giving Quatronia a hard time.

I only played the first part of the turn, so some details are missing from the turn report.

HUSch
Dec 13, 2010, 06:30 AM
Lp
It's good to see someone here, who knows about war and making the plans to victory in it.
Rigel can only whip buildings and units. It's therefor the best GP-producing.
You are right, we need some more towns in south of Bode.

btw
What do you say to our expedition corps to Inj.

the aque in AC was an idea (from me) to HG, but Maw was quicker with an Engineer.

Achenar: I saw the fishing boat there at next turn, as I made the post, my mistake.

Edit
For this turn: Should we whip the cross in Arc to get big overlay?

HUSch
Dec 13, 2010, 07:22 AM
Quat has moved their units to east, if I see it right, Mav can't attack there (no roads).
I think they wait of siege weapons (5-6 turns), 6-7 siege weapons wait in Quatron.

Trystero
Dec 13, 2010, 09:29 AM
Quat has moved their units to east, if I see it right, Mav can't attack there (no roads).
I think they wait of siege weapons (5-6 turns), 6-7 siege weapons wait in Quatron.

I think you are right, HUSch. I expect Mavs will be whipping CG2 crossbows like crazy in the meantime.

AlphaShard
Dec 13, 2010, 09:43 AM
We probably should whip up some more forces our selves then.

Husch did you see my post where I said I was able to take the city in the save you posted? Was your point that we needed three Trebuchets or that 3 wasn't enough?

@Irgy: Sorry I forgot to respond to your post on this but I attacked and took the city on the same turn as the game opened up to. So I don't know if the city units had their fortify bonus or not.

It HAS been my experience that a little Siege goes a LONG way. I still think 3 Siege is enough per city but I'm not against overkill, especially since I am sure Quat will gain at least one city.

Oh and LP you should know that Quat got Music first so they still have the GA from that. I've played enough MP games to see how devestating and annoying a culture bomb can be. Even when you ARE a Cre civ.

HUSch
Dec 13, 2010, 12:21 PM
How many test 've you made (it's random seed) and it's possible, that Mav set 1-2 units more there. I 've won also, but there are no units to defend the town after capturing. And you need the cross or?

So long Mav builds no cats we should wait of the 1. reinforcement. A few cats more, make the injuries of our troops not so bad.

the 1. reinforcement has 1 cross (now build in Arc), 1 mace (in moment at old army point) and 2 cats, the 2 has 2 HA, Juno, a mace from Vega and cats (we 've 5 cats, 1 pike); in Vega and Arc we can whip to get big overlay and 2 units more for the 2. reinforcement (Nobody and EI 2).


btw
In the test I gave the units ** additional, for fortifying.

AlphaShard
Dec 13, 2010, 12:28 PM
Well I only did one but I find it hard to believe I could be THAT lucky with all of the units. I lost one and there WAS a full health Mace left plus a Pikeman that didn't even fight.

BLubmuz
Dec 13, 2010, 12:58 PM
Well I only did one but I find it hard to believe I could be THAT lucky with all of the units. I lost one and there WAS a full health Mace left plus a Pikeman that didn't even fight.I guess you were successful in set the city on revolt? BTW, i forgot: it's just that the city loses the defense bonus or also the units are damaged? like in a revolt for cultural pressure?

AlphaShard
Dec 13, 2010, 01:12 PM
The city was already in revolt when I opened the save. I just selected the Trebs, attacked, then selected the Mace and attacked. I then attacked with the Cross.

Irgy
Dec 13, 2010, 02:37 PM
I guess you were successful in set the city on revolt? BTW, i forgot: it's just that the city loses the defense bonus or also the units are damaged? like in a revolt for cultural pressure?

Just the city loses defence, no unit damage.

AlphaShard
Dec 13, 2010, 03:45 PM
Yeah there wasn't any Fortify bonus, so I skipped two turns, incited another revolt and yes that Fortify bonus makes a world a difference it seems. I wasn't able to take the city but it WOULD eventually fall with heavy losses on our side.

Though it's not like I said don't bring in reinforcements.

AlphaShard
Dec 13, 2010, 04:23 PM
So do we want to whip again in Rigel so it can focus on military stuff? Are we going to whip in Arcturus for the Hammer Overflow?

Remember DaveMCW said we can do anything so long as it doesn't involve the units. So we can do last minute whips.

Trystero
Dec 13, 2010, 04:43 PM
We don't have to whip in Rigel to change its production. We aren't in immediate need for an Observatory anyway. What if we just switch to building Barracks?

Edit: or a settler or workers?

AlphaShard
Dec 13, 2010, 05:51 PM
That's true I just like to take advantage of the Slavery civic while were in it.

Settler will take 7 turns, worker 4 and Barracks in 6.

I really wish we had US. Barracks cost 225, Settler 450. We could buy both 1 turn after the other. How do people NOT find that useful??

HUSch
Dec 14, 2010, 01:46 AM
We should whip all things in Rigel, settler and worker also, if we want to build them.
It's
1 :food: = 1 :hammers: in normal and
18-20 :food: (1 pop) = 37.5 :hammers:

Have you now whipped in Arc and Vega? I looked.


Sry
I 've made a plan for Procyon (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9986121&postcount=162), but forget to look at it.

HUSch
Dec 14, 2010, 02:14 AM
In Rigel now we build a settler with 15/100 +15 :hammers:, we wait 3 turns then we have 60 and whip for pop 2 (best value);
we 've then 22/32 :food: and overlay 49 : 1,25 = 39 build then lh in 1 turn and grow to pop 8-10 again.

HUSch
Dec 14, 2010, 02:19 AM
We 've lost our spy at hill, that is a warning for them too. Perhaps they don't know about the spy in Inj.

Additional there are +2 Cross in at near Injinya, together 5 (2 without promotion, also with 2 free). That is too much for our corps to win against, without reinforcement. But I would land and hope, that if they attack we 'll live next 2 turns

BLubmuz
Dec 14, 2010, 04:51 AM
If Mav brings reinforcements, use the turns waiting for our ones arriving to bombard the city.

What are we waiting to start some diplomacy with our "allies"? That the grass grows under our feet? Do we want to keep that ETT indefinitely, waiting for them crushing us with our techs and the money they saved for upgrades?

AlphaShard
Dec 14, 2010, 04:55 AM
If Mav brings reinforcements, use the turns waiting for our ones arriving to bombard the city.

What are we waiting to start some diplomacy with our "allies"? That the grass grows under our feet? Do we want to keep that ETT indefinitely, waiting for them crushing us with our techs and the money they saved for upgrades?

I'm not sure we want to signal them that were done with the ETT just yet. We've already made plans to not give them techs anymore.

BLubmuz
Dec 14, 2010, 05:35 AM
I'm not sure we want to signal them that were done with the ETT just yet. We've already made plans to not give them techs anymore.Sure, but we need to draft a plan with Amazon. We can't leave them... for now.

AlphaShard
Dec 14, 2010, 06:14 AM
We should dicuss this more your right in that, it is a delicate matter.

I'm not sure myself how to go about this since I think one option is to get Quat and CDZ to fight each other. I have a feeling that scenario is almost inevitable if you look at Quat/CDZ culture conflicts.

Lord Parkin you may have missed that little spat where CDZ and Quat were fighting over the southern spoke.

To me it's like the Quat has a Bomb with that GA just waiting to go off.

My main concern is not getting dogpiled in this so we should start in talking to Amazon first, make sure they are agreed on the Big Picture here after Mav/Mer are gone.

HUSch
Dec 14, 2010, 10:18 AM
Ama and CDZ 'll get close borders, with CDZ conquer the spoke between Ama and Merlot. Sangre is like a Look-out (fort) from CDZ to Ama.

If Mav brings reinforcements, use the turns waiting for our ones arriving to bombard the city.

What are we waiting to start some diplomacy with our "allies"? That the grass grows under our feet? Do we want to keep that ETT indefinitely, waiting for them crushing us with our techs and the money they saved for upgrades?
Blub
if we don't give them our techs, they couldn't do anything with it. I would request DR from CDZ and research low nationalism.
We must land first before we can bomb the city.

You are for landing now, is it right?

Trystero
Dec 14, 2010, 11:48 AM
Here is the situation in Injinya:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0452.jpg

As HUSch mentioned the units 1N are 2 crossbows (1 with CG2 promotions the other unpromoted). The Quatronia stack is 4N of Injinya, and maybe heading to Gold City.

We need to decide (and soon): Do we land our stack at Omaha Beach?

As a reminder our stack is 4 trebs, 5 maces, 2 crossbows, and 1 pike.

BLubmuz
Dec 14, 2010, 12:38 PM
I'm for landing now, our 2 Xbows should be promoted to Drill and Guerrilla or both to Drill.
We can bombard the city while waiting for reinforcements.

Quat stack can have another target: pillage the iron. Without it, goodbye Xbows. And if we block the trade route, goodbye any unit but archers.

Instead of supposing what they're doing would not be better just ask them? Are they our allies or else? And possibly make a common plan?

But quick, the grass is already growing under our feet!

AlphaShard
Dec 14, 2010, 01:17 PM
It does look rather even I don't see what's in the city but it looks like it will be 8 vs 8 units, not counting our Siege.

I agree we can land and bombard, no more retreating if we land. So there's my vote Trystero if your going to do it, do it. :)

Yeah maybe we should at least attempt parlay with Quat I just not sure what to say to someone who is going to be our enemy probably as soon as Mav is dead. *sigh*

HUSch
Dec 14, 2010, 02:09 PM
Blub,
first: our crosses 've not both a free promotion, 1 has 1 XP the other 3.
Drill is imo nonsens, you must me shown a good reason for it.

If Quat is going to iron, Mav must build then cats that is more difficult for us; I don't understand the moment not doing this.

I'm also for landing !

victory or dead

is the slogan

Tristero
Land and then back with enter, Nobody and EI 2 also 1 tiles NE, Mariner 2 tiles NE and blockade.
Our reinforcement units stay at roaded tile, the mace at old army point goes E to the other units.

EI 1 goes south and the HA land at roaded farm tile ( Arc EE),


Best you promote the cross with guerilla, our units can't attack/conquer next turn, if we bomb nexrt turn, possible they 'll think we 've no spy there.

I would like a better connection with our allies, but I'm not speaking good enough to conference with them.

AlphaShard
Dec 14, 2010, 02:20 PM
Victory or Death, HUSch, Victory or Death.

Drill is the first strike right? That is a good defensive promotion but Geuriall hill defense will be fine as well, I think it is good idea to promote.

Trystero
Dec 14, 2010, 02:25 PM
OK - to be clear:

Troops move to Omaha Beach (1W) from Nobody and EI 2. Those ships then go NE to the tile marked "reinforcement tile". Enterprise goes to the tile where Nobody and EI 2 started the turn, drops off its troops, then goes NE. Mariner moves 2 tiles NE and blockades.

I'll play this turn in about 2 hours.

AlphaShard
Dec 14, 2010, 02:36 PM
Were returning the 3rd EI to the north again? Back to Sol area? Wouldn't it be better served down here? I mean we have the Mav spoke to contend with as well after this.

Not to mention Quat...

HUSch
Dec 14, 2010, 02:42 PM
OK - to be clear:

Troops move to Omaha Beach (1W) from Nobody and EI 2. Those ships then go NE to the tile marked "reinforcement tile". Enterprise goes to the tile where Nobody and EI 2 started the turn, drops off its troops, then goes NE. That is wrong

Mariner moves 2 tiles NE and blockades.

I'll play this turn in about 2 hours.
You 've mixed the EI
OB is 1 W of Enterprise, not of Nob and EI2. We want to conquer Injinya. Enterprise can after landing goes to the tile SW of tile which LP is roading.
The other EIs only 1 NE

Sry for my bad english.
I knew it, when I post it, it has no good music/rhythm.

The wb should go direction Betei, the worker (Toch or Claudius) there help
mine.

If at Anjen the worker (who chopped) should build cottage,
the other goes at the forest south of Achenar, to chop in the next turns.

HUSch
Dec 14, 2010, 02:50 PM
Were returning the 3rd EI to the north again? Back to Sol area? Wouldn't it be better served down here? I mean we have the Mav spoke to contend with as well after this.

Not to mention Quat...

No, Enterprise take the next units and then the other 2.

Reinforcement is 2 HA (5/2 XP), 2 Mace, 1 Cross, 4-5 cats, 2 Pikes. I think we need all units to conquer Injinya.

btw
We build a EI in the north/Sirius in few turns, we need all 3 in the sea between Bode and Mav. As Blub said EIs are long time best units. They 've even a chance against frigates (and to chemistry is a long way).

Trystero
Dec 14, 2010, 02:51 PM
You 've mixed the EI
OB is 1 W of Enterprise, not of Nob and EI2. We want to conquer Injinya. Enterprise can after landing goes to the tile SW of tile which LP is roading.
The other EIs only 1 NE

OK - got it. Sorry I was looking at a screenshot rather than the game itself,
and I confused where the ships were. But I understand the plan. Enterprise is next to Omaha Beach and EI 2 and Nobody near Gold City. All ships will leave their troops at Omaha and head NE.

Don't worry about your English. That is why I ask, to make sure we understand each other. This time it was my fault.

Trystero
Dec 14, 2010, 06:31 PM
Turn played. Let's hope this is more victory than death.

Troops (3 mace, 1 pike) disembark from Enterprise to Omaha Beach. Enterprise moves 4NE to Bode.
Nobody moves to 1E of Omaha. 2 trebs, 1 mace (promotion available), and 1 crossbow (promoted to Guerrilla I) disembark. Nobody moves 1NE.
EI 2 moves to 1E of Omaha. 2 maces, 1 crossbow, 1 treb disembark. EI 2 moves 1NE.
Mariner moves 2 NE but can't be set to blockade at that location. I moved 1W toward Gold City to blockade there next turn.

EI 1 went S and the 2 Horse Archers disembark at the roaded farm tile.
The stack on Bode stayed at the "army point" tile. The mace at the old army point moved 1E to join the stack.

No instruction was given for these troop movements, so I used my own discretion:
1. I moved Juno (2E of Arcturus) to 1N of army point.
2. I moved the new maceman in Vega toward the army point. She is now 1W of Arcturus.

The new work boat in Canopus moved E toward the Betelgeuse fish tile.
In Achernar caveman1917 is building a cottage, and HUSch moved to the forest 2S1W of Achernar to chop.

I'll post a report in the Turn tracking thread later tonight.

Edit: Also, I ended the turn, but I think we should put beakers into Education or Nationalism or something. We really don't need more cash. Unless we can run US soon...

Trystero
Dec 14, 2010, 11:41 PM
New turn update:

No attack on our stack! Mavericks moved troops out of the city (looks like they are going toward Gold City).

Troops leaving:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0459.jpg

Troops coming:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0458.jpg

Troops now in the city:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0457.jpg

HUSch
Dec 15, 2010, 02:36 AM
What are they doing there, they left the Pyra city, why?


They 've the tactically advantage, our trbs makes only small collateral damage, and we can't reach them, but they can attack us,next turn.
Want we attack/conquer InJinya or wait 1 turn so that we get at least 4 units (I would take cross, mace pike and cat) more in the conquered town.
Bombing this turn. That give them/Mav the opportunity/considering to whipp some more units and not attack this turn.



btw
We had not finished the turn, it's better to get 2 days for considering the situation at mm.


2. edit
with whipp in Injinya there is now only 3-4 turns anarchy, Mav help us.

HUSch
Dec 15, 2010, 03:21 AM
tristero
Could you blockade this turn? I saw this turn no icon for it.

Perhaps we should organize a better schedule with EI blockade.

Important is, that Enter takes 4 units on board and goes at a tile (at best 2 SW), from which it can reach the conquered Injinya next turn and blockade.

The other both EI go at reinforce-point and there 1 EI takes this turn only 4 cats and goes 1 SW, the other waits for the mace, cross and the 2 HA.
Then we 've only 1 cat left in Anjen.

BLubmuz
Dec 15, 2010, 03:34 AM
It's a pretty common tecnique to evacuate a city when it's sieged by a lot of siege (ehm :crazyeye:), to keep the units safe from the collateral and attack when the city is taken.
OTOH they can be afraid for their Capital and try to keep at least one city in their home island.

In any case we can easily take the Pyra city (let's change this absurd name after it) and keep it. We can use 2 cats to soften them, then the less XP mace for the first unit, then any unit to take the city.
No bombardment, just use the spy. In case of failure of the spy, attack anyway. Those Xbows do not even have a fortify bonus.

We'll left the 2 damaged siege and the first attacker on Omaha Beach, knowing they'll be wiped. But with 9 units we can surely keep the city.

When are the reinforcements expected? 1 or 2 turns? In any case i suggest to bring as much non-siege as possible, we need defenders.

AlphaShard
Dec 15, 2010, 04:17 AM
We have GOT to have enough to take two Crossbowmen. I really think we can take it this turn but I see the point about them countering us if we take it. The small stack of Elephant, Mace and Cross is not in the direction of Gold city so that could be what they are doing.

BLubmuz
Dec 15, 2010, 04:44 AM
We have GOT to have enough to take two Crossbowmen. I really think we can take it this turn but I see the point about them countering us if we take it. The small stack of Elephant, Mace and Cross is not in the direction of Gold city so that could be what they are doing.Sure and they can always move back the other units they moved from the city. But the first defenders for us will be the 2 Xbows if attacked by maces or their Xbows and the pike in case of the WE. They can win at decent odds. Then is a question of RNG and if they want to risk their units to take a couple from us. But Mavs can't take back the city and they will be forced to revolt.

We can also set up a galleon chain to bring the units in one turn after they are loaded. I hope you know how it works. In case i can explain or play actively. BTW, i'd like to do, i've just watch since.

BLubmuz
Dec 15, 2010, 04:56 AM
OK, i'm connected to the game, so i can speak informed.
We have a pike with moves.
- Let's load in Enterprise.
- Enterprise moves in the same tile of Nobody, load the pike in Nobody
- move Nobody in the city once conquered, unload
- move EI2 where Enterprise is now

Next turn:
- load pike, Xbow, HA, mace in EI2
- move EI2 where Enterprise is, load the units in Enterprise
- move enterprise to the city, unload

Rinse and repeat, just change the ships. Clear?

AlphaShard
Dec 15, 2010, 05:00 AM
How do we do ship to ship movement when the Pike has already moved?

My question is should we attack this turn? I am voting yes, I feel like they may indeed be turtling in Gold City.

EDIT: Sorry Blubmuz I missed that you posted twice so I only saw your second post. I was very tempted to take that city this morning as I am fully confident that we can do so, even if we do lose a mace or two. That though I feel is worse case since city will be in revolt, damaged by siege and we have 5 mace. We definitly need the reinforcements so we can then move to Gold City.

BLubmuz
Dec 15, 2010, 05:54 AM
How do we do ship to ship movement when the Pike has already moved?

My question is should we attack this turn? I am voting yes, I feel like they may indeed be turtling in Gold City.Your question tells me you've never used a galleon chain.
You can load/unload a unit in a city (or in a fort in your cultural borders) even if it has no moves.

The same is applied between 2 or more ships on the same tile.
- Select the unit
- click the load icon
- you will be prompted to choose a ship where to load
- choose it
- done

The unit is without moves, so it cannot land in the open. But using the unload it can go in a city and it's ready to defend.

I used this extensively in many games. IT's time consuming when you have lots of units, but usually it's worth the effort.

You can cross a big ocean in 1 turn with an appropriate galleon chain.

EDIT: your edit xposted with this one.
Let's take that city. NOW!

AlphaShard
Dec 15, 2010, 05:59 AM
Well I'm at work so I can't :( But anyone can take it if they can log in and do so.

I tried doing that trick once and it didn't seem to work, I guess I did it wrong and thought it wasn't possible to do.

BLubmuz
Dec 15, 2010, 06:22 AM
Well I'm at work so I can't :( But anyone can take it if they can log in and do so.

I tried doing that trick once and it didn't seem to work, I guess I did it wrong and thought it wasn't possible to do.I know what i'm proposing. Rest assured, it works.

There's consensus in taking the Pyra city now?
If yes, i can have some fun.

HUSch
Dec 15, 2010, 09:15 AM
The ship chain is possible, in this for 5-6 tiles it is not very practicable and nonsens, btw we need more than 4 units.

The question is attack now or wait 1 turn, so that we 've 1 Shipload of units in the conquered town. Quat 'll be go at iron this turn, I think.
If we conquer, they lost police-state.

I vote for wait 1 turn, if we attack the sequence is clear, I think, but I see Alpha and Blub are for attack, so it should be done.
Important the units for Enter not decide before we 've attack
1. Spy revolt, if this fails: the trebs bomb no other action
2. The treb promote CR, attack all 3
3. decide: have the best mace (CR,*) >80% attack, if not if cross (1/2 XP) >90, attack, if both not, then attack the mace without xp.
4. Then look and decide the same procedure.

Now I must go and come later to look or make mm-decisions.

BLubmuz
Dec 15, 2010, 10:28 AM
HUSch, the ship chain is all but a nonsense.
Even for 1 tile it can be the difference between lose and win this battle.
For instance, just bringing the pike (our only unit with moves on the coast) is a big difference, since he can easily win against 2 HA now in Gold city.

Let's see Mavs' stacks:
NW: 5 - 1WE, 2 maces, 2 Xbow
NE: 4 - 1warrior, 2maces, 1Xbow
then, 3 HAs in Gold city.

Those are the units which can arrive to ours.
We can have in the city:
1 injured mace
1 treb (2 are more than enough to reduce the 2 Xbows to dust)
4 full health maces
2 Xbows
1 pike + 1 from the ship chain.
Total 10 units.
It's nearly impossible Mavs can win any battle. They will lose no less than 4 units. If 5 win, next turn we have 4 more in that city. No siege, units which can be able to defend.

So that's what i propose: Let's take the city now!
First i can use the spy and report if unsuccessful, otherwise proceed with the battle.
Please bear in mind that our units are just slightly better on the hill, nothing great. But on the hill we lose the chance to make good use of the reinforcemens, since they need 1 more turn to land.

If you agree with the above, i start.

There's another chance: try the first Treb, if successful, the 2nd can't fail.
Then we can move the spy to Iron and sabotage it.

Trystero
Dec 15, 2010, 11:03 AM
BLubmuz: You have the go ahead from me to try to take the city.

BLubmuz
Dec 15, 2010, 11:43 AM
BLubmuz: You have the go ahead from me to try to take the city.Thank you!

Mission accomplished!
I've seen too low chances not using the spy, so i did. Now he's in Sirius for a night with some Bond-girl.
2 trebs were enough for those Xbows.
I chose to attack with the 0 XP mace first and he's on the hill unscratched.
Then i attacked with the CR2, so he will have less chances to defend the stack.

Granary, forge, Pyramids!. But let's wait to revolt, it's not safe. And we have to discuss if we can maybe put another civics change.

Made the chain with the pike, promoted to C1. USed the last move of Enterprise for a blockade, which is now isolating the island. The chain can be repaeted next turn, the ships are in position.

Trystero
Dec 15, 2010, 12:13 PM
Great work BLubmuz! I think you've just earned the position as Team General. ;) I've never tried the galleon chain before. That is a neat trick. Let's try to get enough troops over to defend that city and possibly take another one while Quat are attacking the other (yes, I am perhaps being overly optimistic).

I agree we shouldn't revolt yet. We need to come up with a long term plan.

I vote for renaming the city Beta Centauri. I know someone didn't like that because we already have Alpha Centauri, but I like the name, and it's next on our list. But I am getting ahead of myself: First let's hold that city!

AlphaShard
Dec 15, 2010, 12:13 PM
I'd love to see screen caps of the ship chain, the island, etc. :)

Good work and that Spy did well! We'll need him again for Gold City I think. We should plan on that one next, maybe landing forces near there if all Mav forces go to Gold City. I don't want to lose this city to Quat.

Edit: We can rename it this turn I think, that won't cost us anything and a nice thumbing the nose to Mav/Mer. Also I really would like to use Universal Sufferage but I understand if we go Rep or Police State.

BLubmuz
Dec 15, 2010, 12:56 PM
Great work BLubmuz! I think you've just earned the position as Team General. ;) I've never tried the galleon chain before. That is a neat trick. Let's try to get enough troops over to defend that city and possibly take another one while Quat are attacking the other (yes, I am perhaps being overly optimistic).

I agree we shouldn't revolt yet. We need to come up with a long term plan.

I vote for renaming the city Beta Centauri. I know someone didn't like that because we already have Alpha Centauri, but I like the name, and it's next on our list. But I am getting ahead of myself: First let's hold that city!I think i can accept. I got enough time to fight when needed and i think i am a good warmonger. Even if my preferred VC is Space. BTW, i'm particularly strong in modern warfare.

Yes, we must discuss what civic best fits with our long term plans, but better have the island secured before a revolt.

And for the renaming... with all those Stars names we risk to be missed up. It has Pyramids, so why not Giza? Same for Gold City. Babylon, maybe?

I'd love to see screen caps of the ship chain, the island, etc. :)

Good work and that Spy did well! We'll need him again for Gold City I think. We should plan on that one next, maybe landing forces near there if all Mav forces go to Gold City. I don't want to lose this city to Quat.

Edit: We can rename it this turn I think, that won't cost us anything and a nice thumbing the nose to Mav/Mer. Also I really would like to use Universal Sufferage but I understand if we go Rep or Police State.Well a short description can do a good job.
There's a single Dutch tile in that island, surrounded by light purple land. In that land there're some bad guys, willing to remove that nice Orange from there.
The ships are exactly as you've seen them before, just with different names :p except the one just outside the city.

Then: Mavs can easily take our units on the hill, at worst (for them) losing the first attacker. But then we can take all the others but the last one if they do not protect them.
Next turn another chain to ferry a mix of all non-siege units. Let's see what they do before the final decision.

AlphaShard
Dec 15, 2010, 01:08 PM
I think i can accept. I got enough time to fight when needed and i think i am a good warmonger. Even if my preferred VC is Space. BTW, i'm particularly strong in modern warfare.


Well I'm open to other VC other then Conquest and Domination but so far no one thinks its remotely possible to do Culture or Spaceship.


Yes, we must discuss what civic best fits with our long term plans, but better have the island secured before a revolt.


Well both Rep and US would be good long term Civics, the extra hammers from rivered towns combined with Leves will be great. Though Rep is a better tech Civic.


And for the renaming... with all those Stars names we risk to be missed up. It has Pyramids, so why not Giza? Same for Gold City. Babylon, maybe?


What do you mean by missed up? I actually liked the star names that were coming up next. All of them were short, not convoluted sounding. Though Giza and Babylon are fine names, I just didn't understand what your concern was.


Well a short description can do a good job.
There's a single Dutch tile in that island, surrounded by light purple land. In that land there're some bad guys, willing to remove that nice Orange from there.
The ships are exactly as you've seen them before, just with different names :p except the one just outside the city.

Then: Mavs can easily take our units on the hill, at worst (for them) losing the first attacker. But then we can take all the others but the last one if they do not protect them.
Next turn another chain to ferry a mix of all non-siege units. Let's see what they do before the final decision.

So outside the city is 2 Trebs and 1 Mace and inside is 4 mace, 1 pike 2 cross and a Treb?

EDIT: I agree with you being genera.

BLubmuz
Dec 15, 2010, 01:41 PM
Well I'm open to other VC other then Conquest and Domination but so far no one thinks its remotely possible to do Culture or Spaceship.Culture is out of question and i think Space too. Conquest or Dom. So be it.
What do you mean by missed up? I actually liked the star names that were coming up next. All of them were short, not convoluted sounding. Though Giza and Babylon are fine names, I just didn't understand what your concern was.I like Stars names, i love Astronomy. Still i think that for the Pyramids city Giza is best fitted. We can keep the Stars names for the cities we settle or for less meaningful cities. It doesn't comes to my mind a star name related to Ancient Egypt (which i love, BTW, see my Avatar)So outside the city is 2 Trebs and 1 Mace and inside is 4 mace, 1 pike 2 cross and a Treb?

EDIT: I agree with you being genera.2 pikes, thanks to the galleon chain. The 2 trebs are badly damaged.

Thank you!

HUSch
Dec 15, 2010, 01:52 PM
Bravo, Blub, I don't agree!

you 've for 1 turn a pike there make a new plan. bravo. Why?

Question 1: Which EI make blockade this turn? Nonsense question (if they can build an ele) or what? Perhaps it's needed, but we play a DG.

Question 2: Why stand the units at coast and are not at ship? Why post i there, that no unit should stand there, there is no reason for that! They can allways go from our cultural territory on board the ships. To understand this is too difficult, it cost only 9 :gold: for nothing, but we 've it.

Irgy
Dec 15, 2010, 02:09 PM
Well done capturing the city! What did we lose in the end? It sounds like we lost nothing.

HUSch presumably has some points about some micro details, but the point of having a general, if we do have one, is to make sure we don't miss the forest for the trees. We'd be sacrificing micro perfection for a bit of consistency. It doesn't mean we can't or even shouldn't point out things that we spot, but the main hope is not to get caught up arguing over details.

I'm all for leaving captured cities with their previous names, personally. I would have done that with Rigel too. But it doesn't really matter to me.

BLubmuz
Dec 15, 2010, 02:13 PM
Bravo, Blub, I don't agree!

you 've for 1 turn a pike there make a new plan. bravo. Why?

Question 1: Which EI make blockade this turn? Nonsense question (if they can build an ele) or what? Perhaps it's needed, but we play a DG.

Question 2: Why stand the units at coast and are not at ship? Why post i there, that no unit should stand there, there is no reason for that! They can allways go from our cultural territory on board the ships. To understand this is too difficult, it cost only 9 :gold: for nothing, but we 've it.You're free to disagree, but i think that any units can make a difference.
Enterprise is blockading. Next turn, instead of a WE, Mavs will get a pleasant message sounding like "you cannot build a WE in this city, choose your production". Then, if we stop the Blockade - but we don't - they can complete the WE without losing hammers. But just one turn.
If we never stop the blockade, those will be hammers lost. It's like we pillaged their only Ivory Camp.
You can test it in WB. I don't need tests, i know how this works.

DG? sure, i asked a green light. We're 5 active members of this team, 3 were for take the city immediately using the ships chain. If you can't see the benefits of that, i'm sure you will change your mind soon.

And the units are outside our borders (not moved by me) because we don't have a road on that tile. We're roading it. I did not checked the worker, so i don't know if the road could be completed in time to load those troops in the EI. In any case, if that is a mistake, it was made before i connected to the game to look, since i've seen that stack this morning (you can see the time in Civstats).

HUSch
Dec 15, 2010, 02:24 PM
If the units at Bode haven't moved now, 4 from them could go aboard of EI 2 and next turn would be in Injinya. Normal without any ship-chain.
btw
There are 5 tiles one way, 3 EI can easily move every turn 4 units to the goal and additional blockade.


http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=275748&stc=1&d=1292447937



Worker moving and MM for this turn.
Toch goes W at forest to road, after roading helps pindi plantation building.

MM:
We can whip the forge in Procyon for pop 2, best working then pig and 2 mine, we grow in this turn to pop 4 then.
Also I would vote for whip in Arc wotking the same tiles as now, but not 1 mine, we 've
then 16 netto :hammers: * 1.25 = 20 and grow this turn.

In Rigel we should better wait 2 turns now, but we can whip there also.

HUSch
Dec 15, 2010, 02:29 PM
There can and I would whip the Ele in one turn. They 've done it with cross at the spire.

We 've road on the tile. Why is LP making it this turn?

AlphaShard
Dec 15, 2010, 02:29 PM
Yes we definitly had a majority on taking the city, I would have done it in the morning myself. I think Blub did better then I would have had I done so, so I feel safer letting him be in charge of war tatics.

Carib may have been a fine name, but I take great pleasure in renaming the other teams cities. Or seeing our team do so. It puts a definte "OURS" stamp on it. Plus I really don't like the name of that city, like I said Carib was nice Injinya no.

I moved units along the road being built, LP still has another turn to finish it. 9 gold is not going to bust us. The sign for Reinforcement tile was NOT next to a roaded tile.

Irgy
Dec 15, 2010, 02:49 PM
Not sure if you were counting me in the 3, but I was always for taking the city any time we were able to too. Like I said, as long as we don't lose more units than them, between our initial attack and any counterattack they launch, we're ahead. I think I was asleep during the time it was actually decided though.

BLubmuz
Dec 15, 2010, 03:20 PM
If the units at Bode haven't moved now, 4 from them could go aboard of EI 2 and next turn would be in Injinya. Normal without any ship-chain.
btw
There are 5 tiles one way, 3 EI can easily move every turn 4 units to the goal and additional blockade.Wrong!

The land units have no moves left, so they can't embark this turn.
Then we need 2 turns to arrive to Pyra City, unless we use the chain.
What you're proposing is a chain done in different tiles. But that can't be done for the above reason.
I'm noting that after next turn, we must probably skip one for the reinforcements, since our ships can't be next to the coast of Bode at the beginning. But better have that city heavily garrisoned.

I noticed also that all the macemen were already promoted to CR1.
Big mistake!
In this situation some of them promoted to C1 could have been far better.

Thus, i copy/pasted this rule from my SG team rules:

never promote a unit right out of barracks: the first promotion will be given at the front. Naval and air units are promoted to C1.

please remember it!

Not sure if you were counting me in the 3, but I was always for taking the city any time we were able to too. Like I said, as long as we don't lose more units than them, between our initial attack and any counterattack they launch, we're ahead. I think I was asleep during the time it was actually decided though.We can bet we'll lose the units in the hill. This can be a good price to pay for that city. Let's hope it's the only price we'll pay.

And no, Irgy, though i counted you in the active 5 members, i counted Trystero, Alphashard and myself.

I can't see any other member post in those weeks if not LP which made a single post. Of course i hope to have him back at full, but for now he doesn't count as active.
I'd like to know where the other dozens people who signed for this team are gone. Why sign and then disappear?

BLubmuz
Dec 15, 2010, 03:28 PM
There can and I would whip the Ele in one turn. They 've done it with cross at the spire.

We 've road on the tile. Why is LP making it this turn?They can whip the Ele, but still next turn they will find an empty queue and the message. They've lost the resource, so they can't build it. Now!

Same will apply for the Xbows on the Spire. No iron, no Xbows. Maces if they have copper. And mounted, since the resources are on the Spire.

Trystero
Dec 15, 2010, 04:57 PM
Just a reminder that the window for moving military units ends in about 5 hours. We can change the worker instructions after that, but can't move military.

I won't have time to look at the game and HUSch's recommendations for another couple of hours.

BLubmuz
Dec 15, 2010, 05:23 PM
Just a reminder that the window for moving military units ends in about 5 hours. We can change the worker instructions after that, but can't move military.

I won't have time to look at the game and HUSch's recommendations for another couple of hours.The need to move military units in the first half of the turn is limited to units near the front, i suppose. I mean, if we need -for instance- to ferry some unit from Sirius to Bode, do we can?

The units near the front are done: they're with no moves or they are good as they are.

AlphaShard
Dec 15, 2010, 05:33 PM
None of the units were promoted from the Barracks. They were promoted to CR because they were about to attack cities. I believe it was Juno that took Carib.

I just logged into recheck where I moved the army and yes there was no where else for them to go, the road had NOT completed yet.

I renamed EI1 to Dawn Treader, and EI2 Yamato. If someone can think of better names that's fine I'm just tired of the EI 1 and EI 2, it was getting very confusing.

We have Toch on Sol free, road to Canopus?

Irgy
Dec 15, 2010, 05:35 PM
The need to move military units in the first half of the turn is limited to units near the front, i suppose. I mean, if we need -for instance- to ferry some unit from Sirius to Bode, do we can?

I'd be reluctant to move any military units after the time if we can help it. How do we know for sure where the "front" is, if for instance Mavs have a surprise prepared for us. Also if Mavs had visibility on us they might care where our reinforcements are, and not want us to double move them. We're not likely to be surprised at the moment, but it's a good habit to avoid trying to make the distinction.

AlphaShard
Dec 15, 2010, 05:50 PM
As for the missing people I don't know, the original Maverick team evaporated down to Obsolete who quit at turn 100. We let Merlot take over since otherwise it was give too much to just hand cities over to us or anyone else. This way Merlot will go down fighting.

Some signed up to just lurk and others decided they rather play Civ 5. I wouldn't mind getting some back myself. Though to figure that out, I'd ask what brought Blubmuz and Husch back to us. :)

Trystero
Dec 15, 2010, 06:58 PM
I think it's pretty common for lots of people to sign up for team games and many lose interest or simply lurk.

EI 1/Dawn Treader is a military unit that is free to move. It is currently NE of the Arcturus farm. I presume we want it in that area to ferry units, but we could move it toward the battlefront.

Speaking of units: We are in the middle of a war. Why is only one of our cities building military at the moment? I know we wanted infrastructure, but surely we could time it so that more of our cities are building units. We need units not just to attack Mavs home island, but the cities south of Bode as well. Unless we are going to let Quat have those cities?

I would think we want Toch to chop to speed production in Betelgeuse rather than build a road, but I will defer to people with better micro than I.

Also, do we want to switch back to research? Or wait until next turn when we have another library and an observatory up and running?

Finally, I'd rather stick with the star names for our cities myself, so my preference is for Beta Centauri, but feel free to name it what you like, mighty conquering general. :worship:

Irgy
Dec 15, 2010, 08:15 PM
If we have two research buildings coming online next turn then definately wait another turn. I agree about the lack of cities building units, I think LP's comments were along those lines as well. That said, the infrastructure will help when you consider that we may end up at war for quite a while to come.

HUSch
Dec 16, 2010, 01:15 AM
Also Blub
1. That Alpha can no count and not you moved the units, is a problem. The road is ready now!
2. The mace who get CR was at barb city and should fight there. You can read it.
3. That C1 is allways best for naval, would I discuss. Allways is nothing, so I read your own post. With the same I say maces get CR.

Additrional we are playing not SP! All things 've to discuss, not moving without, only if there is a time limit.

Trystero
Dec 16, 2010, 02:03 AM
Sorry, I missed this earlier:


We 've road on the tile. Why is LP making it this turn?


I moved units along the road being built, LP still has another turn to finish it. 9 gold is not going to bust us. The sign for Reinforcement tile was NOT next to a roaded tile.

AlphaShard, let me explain HUSch's point: When the game is cycling through units, it does so in a certain order. If the turn for the worker (LP) had not come up yet because we were manually selecting other units, it would look like LP was still building the road unless you forced the worker to finish its turn by giving it the 'wait' command (selecting the unit and pressing the W key). If you had done this LP would have finished the road and the reinforcements could had used the road to board onto the East Indiamen.

I think we need to better organize how we are doing turnplaying. It's not good if we don't understand each other and mistakes are made.

BLubmuz
Dec 16, 2010, 03:38 AM
Though to figure that out, I'd ask what brought Blubmuz and Husch back to us. :)Speaking for myself, i was quiet in the very beginning, since i've seen many things well done. Only few post here and there, but always followed the thread. Then my "campaign" to start thinking how to break the ETTT, which was almost ignored.
Due to this, to the fact that i was busy and that you were doing pretty well i just followed the thread.
Then something wrong called my attention and i started posting pretty intensively.
AlphaShard, let me explain HUSch's point: When the game is cycling through units, it does so in a certain order. If the turn for the worker (LP) had not come up yet because we were manually selecting other units, it would look like LP was still building the road unless you forced the worker to finish its turn by giving it the 'wait' command (selecting the unit and pressing the W key). If you had done this LP would have finished the road and the reinforcements could had used the road to board onto the East Indiamen.

I think we need to better organize how we are doing turnplaying. It's not good if we don't understand each other and mistakes are made.A worker roading to the front is a combat unit, in my way to see a game. And often even more important than actual combat units. If someone moved the units with the worker already there roading, without renew the order to road first, it was a very big mistake! with that road all the troops now on the beach would have 1/2 movement, so 3 of them could have been boarded.

I connected to the game and i've seen the road completed. Pity, a mistake probably due to bad communication. In any case is a good habit to see if a worker can complete a road before to move the units in the tile the worker is roading.

I connected to the game, just for a glance.
Good news, i presume. Quat moved his stack to the Iron hill, so they can seriously threaten the western city in 2 turns, unless Mavs do not move back the W stack there.

AlphaShard
Dec 16, 2010, 04:53 AM
I know exactly what your talking about but had no idea to how trigger LP to finish other then moving units. All there was, was moving the reinforcements and attacking Injinya.

Seriously Husch do you think I'm stupid? I DIDNT ATTACK INJINYA BECAUSE I WANTED TO MAKE SURE WE WERE ALL IN AGGREEMENT.

BLubmuz
Dec 16, 2010, 05:17 AM
I know exactly what your talking about but had no idea to how trigger LP to finish other then moving units. You just need to renew the order to build a road. If the worker has 1 turn left to complete, it will be done just doing that. Otherwise you see the road completed after end turn.

This applies to any improvement. To work a good tile 1 turn before the improvement there is competed and the worker free, you can renew the order, so the city can work the tile 1 turn earlier.
This is very important mainly on normal and quick speed.

In any case, anyone can make a mistake. Let's use those mistakes to improve our knowledge of the game and our gameplay.

AlphaShard
Dec 16, 2010, 05:45 AM
Thank you Blubmuz, btw I do like your Avatar, I will remember that for future reference.

Husch: I have not forgotten that this is a Demogame, which is why I didn't give any worker actions to Toch either. I even asked in thread what he should do.

As for the Reinforcement army they are going to cost us much more then just 9 gold in maintenance for being outside our culture border. Again 9 gold while on 100% Money slider is not going to kill us.

HUSch
Dec 16, 2010, 08:15 AM
Alpha
If there is no road, but the road is there next turn, you win nothing, if you move the units there. So I must think you are stupid; but that is something I would say only, if you are standing before me, and you see me and my laughing face. we are playing, not make a job
Additional I 've posted some times that the units can go from our territory direct over the road to ships. I know allways what I want to say, but my english is not so good to make my speech clear. So I sit before my comp and :D, I exaggerate.

But even I exaggerate, its a game. I didn't lost a few bucks at the fall of cards, when I play bridge, my partner must tolerate me and my face and hearing my words after.

AlphaShard
Dec 16, 2010, 08:29 AM
Yeah Husch you need to work on your english. What you just said was extremly insulting.

Frankly I can't understand half of what you say in most of your posts, this is the first time your post was actually readable to me.

At the time LP WAS working still on the road with a little (1), so I can count thank you very much. I didn't know about the little trick about re-issuing the order. Thankfully both Trystero and Blubmuz understood what had happened. Otherwise we WOULD have had three more units over on Mav island.

But if you want me to quit the game because I'm not smart enough I'll do so. I certainly wouldn't want to be the cause of the teams downfall.

BLubmuz
Dec 16, 2010, 08:58 AM
Hey, take it easy!

HUSch surely went over the lines and his english won't help him to choose the best words to voice his feelings. Not that mine is far better, i'm an ignorant stranger too :D

Surely we won't lose the game, nor the city just conquered for that mistake.
And it wasn't actually a mistake, just lack of knowledge of all the tricks this game has.

Now, we're doing pretty well, despite many more important mistakes. We're already an handful of people (literally) so, anyone can preciously contribute to the game.

We need all and you both made a good work until now.

What are the important mistakes we're committing?
All the Literature wonders not built: probably we still lack the requisites for the HE, but Canopus can build the GLib and the NE in a blow, mainly with some chop. We got marble, remember?
We're throwing away free beakers from the free specialists the GLib has and a possible quick GS. How many turrns are gone after we researched Literature? Are we waiting some of our allies will build it?

Those are mistakes, guys.

HUSch
Dec 16, 2010, 09:53 AM
Nobody should quit the game, you are "crazy" if you take my words in that sense.
We play and if I win or lose is nothing. I 've fun if a plan is a success, that is enough
I play in 4 DGs (SMAC, C3C and 2 in BtS) in the moment, in one I was in the loser-team 17 month (as Mav here) in the minor ally, but I quit only if there is not fair-play (as I see it). No accusation or insult/affront can do it.

If you 've fun to play in this team and I think, it's so, play again. That is a DG and we are a group where nobody knows the other, there is no reason to quit, because one (I) say something. And we 've/are a good group, I think. 5-6 member to post and 've ideas, give tips, work with. That you didn't know, that you can give units/worker the order, if you want they act now, I didn't imagine, perhaps because in the most DG it's not usually made. Allways order, break and make a sign about the work. So at the beginning the turn, we give the next order; also in SPs I give the worker often every turn the order.

Blub
Canopus can't get many forest gains, perhaps 1, the most forests are for Betei.
The research is limited with our relation to the Ally.

AlphaShard
Dec 16, 2010, 10:27 AM
Alright then alls good. :)

Now as to the GL we could build it in Sirius, as that is our Beaker city.

Vega, Arcturus and Procyon should be our main military producing cities. I think Vega is building a lighthouse to feed more Mines. I would do NE in Sirius to help us get lots of GS.

BLubmuz
Dec 16, 2010, 11:10 AM
Alright then alls good. :)

Now as to the GL we could build it in Sirius, as that is our Beaker city.

Vega, Arcturus and Procyon should be our main military producing cities. I think Vega is building a lighthouse to feed more Mines. I would do NE in Sirius to help us get lots of GS.Usually you won't build the NE in the Capital. Running bureaucracy it has more benefits from working commerce and production tiles. We need to look for a good food city to set as our GP farm. That's why i proposed Canopus. IIRC it has 2 fish, flood plains a decent production and the Moai.

Unless Canopus is the Confu Holy city. If we build the shrine, it's the Wall Street city, so maybe find another one for the NE.

Better ideas are welcome, but we must choose and realize. No pauses.

I also think that our military cities are the ones in Bode. It's closer to any front than our home island. And all those cities have or will have good production.

AlphaShard
Dec 16, 2010, 11:25 AM
I know I was combining NE+GL, Sirius I think is in the lead with Beakers had has alot of food. However I think Rigel may have more with the FP.

For the record we have never paused. That's the problem with DG, someone puts forth an idea and has to then wait for responses. I know were not all in the same time zone let alone time schedules.

HUSch
Dec 16, 2010, 12:13 PM
Our best GP-town is Rigel, Canopus has problems then with AC, they both can take the :food:-tiles

Another question
Is there an idea to change civics, if yes want we to military (PS) or research (rep), If the first should we change to theo also (5 XP-units). If this is our wish, we must think, which buildings we want to build, and build a missio to give Arc the reli.

AlphaShard
Dec 16, 2010, 12:18 PM
I still think we can use US to buy infrastructure with the money we have going

Trystero
Dec 16, 2010, 12:37 PM
I think we want to build wonders on Sol where they are more easily defended. Since it will obsolete as soon as we research SM, we should build the GL somewhere where we can get it up and running quickly. I haven't checked recently, but I think months ago I proposed Canopus as a location.

Switching to Theocracy sounds like a good idea as long as we have the basic infrastructure up in our production cities (so maybe prioritizing infrastructure was correct). I believe we've already spread Confucianism to Arcturus. If not, we should do so at once.

Are we in agreement that the settler being built in Rigel is going to the Bode B site? We should get more cities down ASAP, so I would have Rigel or Sirius pump out a few more settlers and workers. We should decide how many cities we are going to need first, I suppose.

Finally I noticed we have a courthouse in the build queue at Injinya. I realize it is still in revolt, but I would think we want to build a temple or a library there first. Especially if we are going to be in a culture war with Quatronia on the island.

HUSch
Dec 16, 2010, 01:07 PM
Cult Building are theatre (best, you can make artists).

Alpha, if we take US what should we choose (cast or feuda) for slavery, we don't need both.

LB is not a building we need to defend, it's a building for us.

AlphaShard
Dec 16, 2010, 01:19 PM
Theatre isn't the only Culture building, ever point is going to count aganst the Quat. We have to consider worst case scenario here and that they culture bomb the island.

I would go for Caste, but if we want stronger units Feudalism. Though honestly if want to build alot of stuff quick and have a little "irony" US+Slavery. It sounds amusing.

I think GL is best served in a Strong commerce city, I also rather it be in one with good production so Canopus or Sirius.

Trystero
Dec 16, 2010, 01:20 PM
If we are going to start a GP farm and try to maximize our research advantages after the ETTA, I think we'd want Caste System.

We lose all culture output from wonders in captured cities, correct?

AlphaShard
Dec 16, 2010, 01:26 PM
I believe that is right, though I think the GP points still apply.

HUSch
Dec 16, 2010, 01:37 PM
Yes, the culture get only the maker, like real life, Romans get nothing from Pyras.
In Rigel we can set 3 scientists(after building lib)

Btw
There is not whip, we must whipp in Prokyon, we can in Arc,

The city founding at "B" is not my best place. There is a forest for nothing, the chop gain is 6, that is not enough for the 4 worker-turns. The tile north of "B" is better, has good FC (some mine-tiles with AC).

HUSch
Dec 16, 2010, 01:40 PM
notify:
Quat is at the iron.

HUSch
Dec 16, 2010, 01:42 PM
The missio for Arc can we build in Sirius after finishing the obs (this turn).

AlphaShard
Dec 16, 2010, 01:42 PM
That should stop iron then.

I placed B to make sure all land tiles got covered so how about 1S of the B sign instead? I don't think there is enough space south to make another good city directlly south of B.

Trystero
Dec 16, 2010, 02:20 PM
So we whip in Procyon and Arcturus? I can do this in a little while. I will look at the city B site.

I am not ending the turn so we can discuss things for next turn. I presume BLubmuz will come up with a military plan for the next turn and he will move the units. Everyone is free to make suggestions, of course, but I think we should have only the "General' move our military around.

AlphaShard
Dec 16, 2010, 02:21 PM
Do we want to whip Rigel as well?

HUSch
Dec 16, 2010, 02:31 PM
Here is a pic, i 've lined the FC of our towns and of the City at place "A", I think this is a good place, especially, if we wont not found a city south of A/at the spire of mav. I think we want take "Copper" for us or Quat and the towns at south coast there.
A bad, but possible tile is the marked "road" south of Vega, it has only a clam. There are also a place at the westend of Bode (north or south is there the decision).


http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=275862&stc=1&d=1292534060

we can and should discuss the (dis) advantage of the tiles. The city "B" can be a production city with some hillmines and the clam as food-res + some farms, can work at 5 hillmine/ copper, B-south get only 4 but this is not my reason against it, Its the longer way, and a good (for me in MPs) city has pop til 15, most 10-12. If "B" hasn't a forest, I think I would prefer B-north (only 3 tiles from Arc, 1 turn til railroad) also.
B-south were my option/would I prefer, if we need a harbour against Mav, but for this the city is too late.

BLubmuz
Dec 16, 2010, 02:37 PM
I just looked at tha game.
I did something, but nothing irreversible.

I placed 3 signs on my proposed cities location on Bode. Just to start a discussion.
I've noticed other signs, but i think we can be better set up, even if the incense city is a bit weak on production, to have the fort in BFC.
The Whales city is already marked and i'm fine with it.

Then i deleted the queue in Canopus (Confu Holy) and changed the tiles to max production. Moved the city S (dammit, i can't remember the names) to work the FP freed.
Starting next turn we can build the GLib there in 7 turns. Maybe 6, if we have a good overflow. How does this sound?

AlphaShard
Dec 16, 2010, 02:39 PM
North of "B" looses two land tiles to the south. South of "B" looses just one to the north. Having to sacrfice that forest "B" will still have a forest to the south. That way all land tiles are covered.

Blubmuz could we get a screen cap of the signs you placed?

HUSch
Dec 16, 2010, 02:39 PM
I would like to whip in Rigel in 2 turns, at 60/100 :hammers: we get for pop 2 +75 :hammers: and build with the overlay (~ 48 : 1,25 = 38) the lh in 1 turn and grow with building the lib, but we can whip there, if we 've a good spot for the new town.

BLubmuz
Dec 16, 2010, 02:42 PM
Xposted with HUSch.
City A is very strong. Lot of food and production.
It's better than the 2 i proposed combined, but do we think that fort can be useful?
We need to analyze this question.
If yes, my proposal can be better, if no, HUSch's one is the way to go.

AlphaShard
Dec 16, 2010, 02:44 PM
The fort can be like Panama canal once we have culture and a city nearby. Very soon Mav will only be able to attack from the center spoke. We need to make sure it gets defenses. I thought A would be a very good city with two clams and lots of Hills and Incense, so that's why I placed the "A" sign there.

I posted the Bode settling proposal back in Post 2345 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10003151&postcount=2345)

HUSch
Dec 16, 2010, 03:06 PM
Blub
Canopus build lib with overlay 15 : 2.5 = 6
GL costs 305 : 2.5 = 140 -6 = 134 with our production of 22 netto :hammers: we need 1 turn an engineer to build GL in 6 turns, as we growing in this turn there is no problem (I can see ) in this plan, if we want to build this, perhaps we set the engineer allways to give a GP-Engineer a chance.

If we build the LB in Sirius we can make this with the overlay in the same time, the advantage is the academy + obs there for the 2 scientist the difference is between 12 (sirius) to 7.5 or (later with obs) 9 (in Canopus); so long we 've no acad in Canopus; the GL in Canopus is -3 :science: (its 1 scientist) for a long time ( in Rep -6).

I don't think, we get to Oxford and WS and perhaps not even dike, if this is wrong, we get in Canopus the shrine and go to WS, so Oxford is for Sirius.

HUSch
Dec 16, 2010, 03:16 PM
To Blubs city-plan, Blub2 is a canaltown, its not so much better than "C". The "B"-south is a dike town, in "B"-north we 've a hillmine from Arc now, and mine after the copper the other hills in both FC.

we can discuss this and i must terminate tody.

Please decide in which towns we whipp. if yes:
In Arc for a mine
In Procyon for the water-tiles (That is important to do now, imo)
In Rigel for anyway the least 2.


btw
In the discussion i lost the survey, Ama founds another city in Anjen, we should look we build a cottage for them.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=275888&stc=1&d=1292537629

BLubmuz
Dec 16, 2010, 03:29 PM
ok, here is the screenie http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=275889&stc=1&d=1292538114looking better, Blub3 is not much different from A. Blub2 is stronger than C and Blub1 is like B, but saves a forest and has no overlap with Arcturus, but some with Blub3.

That fort can be a great advantage, IMO.

I also like the idea to build the GLib in Sirius. I was forgetting the Academy.
If we want the GP for the Shrine, we can try to build the ToA in Canopus. It's not for the trade routes income, but more for the free priest.
We can also consider to build the Parthenon in Canopus. Or even in AC.

IMO our main island can build wonders, structures and some ship/missionary and the remaining cities all our military, with some structure from time to time.

BLubmuz
Dec 16, 2010, 03:38 PM
Lot of posts :)
I confirm that a conquered WW produces no culture, but the GP points will remain, even after it's obsolete.

There's Dawn Treader to move. I suggest NW, arriving 1SW of gold to take the spy next turn.

We can also move Ceres to Betel.

If we decide the 4 cities placement and the usefulness of a fort, better start soon with settlers. I think Vega can be the best choice. After the Forge Procyon can concentrate on Military.

Trystero
Dec 16, 2010, 03:51 PM
Blub
Canopus build lib with overlay 15 : 2.5 = 6
GL costs 305 : 2.5 = 140 -6 = 134 with our production of 22 netto :hammers: we need 1 turn an engineer to build GL in 6 turns, as we growing in this turn there is no problem (I can see ) in this plan, if we want to build this, perhaps we set the engineer allways to give a GP-Engineer a chance.

If we build the LB in Sirius we can make this with the overlay in the same time, the advantage is the academy + obs there for the 2 scientist the difference is between 12 (sirius) to 7.5 or (later with obs) 9 (in Canopus); so long we 've no acad in Canopus; the GL in Canopus is -3 :science: (its 1 scientist) for a long time ( in Rep -6).

If we can build the GL in Sirius as fast as can in Canopus, I think we should build it there. It is by far our best research city. Maybe we should build a religious wonder or temple in Canopus so we can run priests and build the shrine there. I will have to weigh that against more units. More East Indiamen would be a good idea in Canopus.

I don't think, we get to Oxford and WS and perhaps not even dike, if this is wrong, we get in Canopus the shrine and go to WS, so Oxford is for Sirius.

Canopus seems like a good Wall Street city.


Please decide in which towns we whipp. if yes:
In Arc for a mine
In Procyon for the water-tiles (That is important to do now, imo)
In Rigel for anyway the least 2.


I'd vote for whipping in Procyon and Arcturus.


btw
In the discussion i lost the survey, Ama founds another city in Anjen, we should look we build a cottage for them.

OK - So I think we should cancel the worker there now, obviously.

I will have a look at BLubmuz's city proposal later when I can log in.

Edit: x-post with BLub. Too much to read. Back to work! :)

AlphaShard
Dec 16, 2010, 04:33 PM
Rigel and the Sol Cities can produce the Workers/Settlers, the current three Bode cities should make Military. Though Procyon has a WB in the queue so the overflow of the whip should pretty much build that in 1-2 turns.

EDIT: I meant that we have a settler being built in Rigel that we can send to Bode.

Irgy
Dec 16, 2010, 04:44 PM
Great Library in Sirius makes sense. As long as we're sure we want it and not just more military in the first place.

My thoughts on the settling pattern?
* Blub2 is definately better than C.
* Blub3 or A is almost irrelevant. Depends just which other city wants to share/lose its tiles. I'd say settle the one further from whichever of C/Blub2 and B/Blub1 we settle first, to get more different tiles sooner.
* B is better than Blub1 on its own, as it claims a couple of otherwise unworked land tiles. However, Blub1 leaves room for a filler city 2N of B (1SW of pigs). If we want to work all of the land tiles, then Blub1+filler would just about do it. If we think an extra city to work maybe 3 or 4 land tiles is just not worth it, then do B.

AlphaShard
Dec 16, 2010, 04:49 PM
I picked A to get a good city that can also use the Incense. I figured since I could get both clams too boot as well.

BLubmuz
Dec 16, 2010, 04:50 PM
Next turn both Canopus and Sirius will finish their builds.
So we have 48 hours to decide if GLib in Sirius and another wonder in Canopus.
Much will depend from where we think to arrive in terms of techs. Do we'll arrive to Infantry? or even to Mech Infantry? Or the game will be decided after Rifles?

Well, we're now in 450 AD, turn 133.
We have a NAP with Amazon until 1000 AD, turn 160. 27 turns. Not much, i think.
They have a powerful army, right at our doorstep. Do you remember what happened to the 2 big stacks of M&M?

I know one of our allies told us he's researching Feud. Can we ask when they think to finish?

I didn't noticed who researched DR. Is one of our allies or M&M? I don't remember to have seen it in our known techs. I forgot to open F4.

In any case, no more techs to anyone, probably we can manage to not give techs even to Amazon until the end of the NAP.

Let's prepare for war. Bloody.

AlphaShard
Dec 16, 2010, 04:59 PM
I believe it was CDZ... Might of been Quat... we should ask for it

BLubmuz
Dec 16, 2010, 05:02 PM
Great Library in Sirius makes sense. As long as we're sure we want it and not just more military in the first place.

My thoughts on the settling pattern?
* Blub2 is definately better than C.
* Blub3 or A is almost irrelevant. Depends just which other city wants to share/lose its tiles. I'd say settle the one further from whichever of C/Blub2 and B/Blub1 we settle first, to get more different tiles sooner.
* B is better than Blub1 on its own, as it claims a couple of otherwise unworked land tiles. However, Blub1 leaves room for a filler city 2N of B (1SW of pigs). If we want to work all of the land tiles, then Blub1+filler would just about do it. If we think an extra city to work maybe 3 or 4 land tiles is just not worth it, then do B.So, i think Blub2 is sold.
A has too much overlap with Blub2, so i think Blub3 is better. But you're right it's the same.
And you're right about B. It's better than Blub1, since it has more land. The only downside is that we settle it on a forest, but not a great loss.

And don't forget the whales city.

Trystero
Dec 16, 2010, 08:10 PM
I finished the turn:

Since there seemed to be general agreement, I whipped away the citizens working the water tiles in Procyon, and one of the citizens working a mine in Arcturus (I believe I am understanding HUSch's instructions correctly).

I have not put anything in the queue in the cities where I whipped. In fact I removed everything from all the the production queues (unless we put hammers into something). I think it is better that we are reminded to consider our production choices when the last build finishes in a city so we can discuss them.

That said, I think a work boat next in Procyon makes sense, and perhaps a maceman or treb in Arcturus?

As BLubmuz suggested, I moved Dawn Treader SW of the gold on Sol to pick up the Spy next turn.

caveman1917's work order was canceled (cottage in Achernar).

AlphaShard
Dec 16, 2010, 08:13 PM
I think a WB will do good in Procyon, how quickly can it be built?

Maybe do an alternating pattern Mace>Treb>Mace? I think Vega should be builting Military next turn as well.

I went and looked at the VC screen:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=275962&stc=1&d=1292556625

Were ahead in the Domination path it seems.

Trystero
Dec 17, 2010, 12:28 AM
New turn update:

Things are not going so well in Injinya:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0464.jpg

It looks like they pulled most of their forces out of Injinya. Our surviving maceman has 0.6 hp left. I will note that they are vulnerable to the Quatronia stack, but I imagine Quat will wait for Mavs to retake the city, then attack.

I also picked the next builds in the cities where we finished our previous ones (since I had to). All these are provisional assignments, of course:

Procyon: WB
Arcturus: mace
Vega: mace
Sirius: Great Library
Canopus East Indiaman

BLubmuz
Dec 17, 2010, 03:19 AM
No, things are not goin' well.
I've looked at the log and we won the early 3 fights, then we lost our 7 not-injured units - and what scares me is that we lost a full health PIKE to a WE - then 2 units who won the first fight. So, they attacked 12 times, lose 3, won 9. Then they probably moved some unit from Gold city, to cover the injured.

Here is a screenie of the log and the Quat stack http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=275972&stc=1&d=1292580959Mavs are putting all their efforts on the Pyramids City. I've seen some Quat unit damaged, so they have probably attacked and lost 3-4 units against them, but basically they are ignoring their west coast city.

Now, we cannot ferry enough units to keep the city. Better evacuate it and come back with more units.

About DR, CDZ have it.

HUSch
Dec 17, 2010, 04:11 AM
The Quat can't attack them.
And we 've no reinforce, so we must retreat again.

For the record, I don't understand your posting, the conquering of Injinya was a mousetrap and we were the mouse. You play to often against AI. we gave away all our advantages in conquering Inj, the best was the hill-defense.
They lost 3 fight with 73, 75 and 79% and won 1 with 22%. All fights without (Ele against pike 22%) were >73%.
The army we had there was too weak. It's not important to 've units for conquer, if you want to hold the town.

I think they can't build cross again, they 'll build cats now; but we must consider, if we want to build wonder (and the mav isle goes to Quat) or win Injinya. The most planning in this fred is about the situation after we won the Pyras and the war.

AlphaShard
Dec 17, 2010, 05:26 AM
What about the army on the Bode coast? I thought those were our reinforcements? We can't get them to the city in time?

BLubmuz
Dec 17, 2010, 06:27 AM
I already said i have almost no experience in Multi, but this is Mav's forces which can arrive to the city: Let's see Mavs' stacks:
NW: 5 - 1WE, 2 maces, 2 Xbow
NE: 4 - 1warrior, 2maces, 1Xbow
then, 3 HAs in Gold city. I posted this 2 pages ago. They sum 12 units. Remember that Mavs do not have Engineering, so they can move 2 tiles with roads.
Mavs lost 3 units and i'm counting 13 now 1N of the city.
What went wrong? Our Xbow Astrea died to an Xbow. The RNG chosen a pike to defend against an Xbow :crazyeye:, then Mavs has the luck with the WE, which i counted dead against a pike. At that poin we have all injured units but the Treb.
I was aware that conquering the city could have been a mousetrap. But i was confident to win at least 2 more fights. Then from where the additional units arrived? Maybe they're just reinforcements Mavs moved after the battle. But again, where did Mavs find the 4 units they've sent against the Quat stack? That stack is out of reach from Gold City without Engineering. There's something weird here!

In any case we can't hold against 13 units. Even if we win 5 fights, they're enough to wipe the injured. I considered lost the units on the hill, instead we lost the ones in the city. 9 for 5 of them. No good.
Strategic retreat, for the second time. We need to arrive in that island with no less than 20 units, to land in the same time.

AlphaShard
Dec 17, 2010, 08:10 AM
The Entire Maverick situation has been wierd from the begining. Clearly they had units hiding in fog somehow. They also assigned a Great General unit to that stack, that should be important to take note of.

We should continue at least blockading Mav Island and Spoke from each other. We may want to set up that fort now. The RNG seems to have not favored us at all. I agree we will need to built up some more military, we'll need Vega, Arcturus and Procyon and I would use AC and Canopus to quickly build more forces. Unless we want to focus on getting more Bode cities up first.

It seems like we did move to quickly both the last time and this time. I noticed the trap as well but had thought there was a chance they were turtling instead. I don't hold any hope or desire that Quat stack will help us.

HUSch
Dec 17, 2010, 08:56 AM
Maw haven't iron (with the Quat stack at iron), copper, ivory, horses at their isle now.
Quat 'll come with the 2. corps in turn 139/140, we see when their units left their isle-towns.

We must decide War or wonder? Both I think impossible.

And we must choose the next city spot. My vote is at west coast the tile north of "Alpha B", because it's near our towns ( 1 turn from Arc) and has from the beginning a good tile to work at. Additional there is a 2. forest (only for this town) to chop, the copper and clam is or all towns there. The settler 'll wipped next turn (134) goes then at galleon at Achenar and next turn (135) at Bode and can found the town (137).

AlphaShard
Dec 17, 2010, 09:01 AM
Maw haven't iron (with the Quat stack at iron), copper, ivory, horses at their isle now.
Quat 'll come with the 2. corps in turn 139/140, we see when their units left their isle-towns.

We must decide War or wonder? Both I think impossible.

And we must choose the next city spot. My vote is at west coast the tile north of "Alpha B", because it's near our towns ( 1 turn from Arc) and has from the beginning a good tile to work at. Additional there is a 2. forest (only for this town) to chop, the copper and clam is or all towns there. The settler 'll wipped next turn (134) goes then at galleon at Achenar and next turn (135) at Bode and can found the town (137).

How so? I already listed 5 cities that can make war units and left Sirius to build GL which will take 8 turns. How is that impossible?

HUSch
Dec 17, 2010, 09:08 AM
Alpha, Blub
The RNG hasn't favored the other, Imo they 've favorde us. they lost 2 of the first 4 combats, not 1 I would think normal. I would think they thought to win the city back. In the ISDG LP get knowing, what is happen, when the RNG favored one player really.

Combats
Cross ag cross 73% lost
Cross ag cross 73% won
cross ag mace 75% lost
mace ag mace 79% won
mace ag mace 79 % lost
mace ag mace 79% won
mace ag mace 88% won
cross ag pike 93% won
WE ag pike 22.7% won
HA ag treb 97% won
Ha ag cross 96% won
war ag cross 70% won

AlphaShard
Dec 17, 2010, 09:17 AM
Alpha, Blub
The RNG hasn't favored the other, Imo they 've favorde us. they lost 2 of the first 4 combats, not 1 I would think normal. I would think they thought to win the city back. In the ISDG LP get knowing, what is happen, when the RNG favored one player really.

Combats
Cross ag cross 73% lost
Cross ag cross 73% won
cross ag mace 75% lost
mace ag mace 79% won
mace ag mace 79 % lost
mace ag mace 79% won
mace ag mace 88% won
cross ag pike 93% won
WE ag pike 22.7% won
HA ag treb 97% won
Ha ag cross 96% won
war ag cross 70% won

It's the WE battle that we really should have won. Were going to need to devote a bunch of cities to making units. Like I said above though Vega, Arcturus, Procyon, AC, and Canopus can make the war units.

Settling the Copper/Clam city seems like a very good idea as it will be our lauching point to Mav lands.

I still think we need to also make sure the spoke entrance is made safe. Wouldn't want units sneaking in on us.

HUSch
Dec 17, 2010, 09:17 AM
Alpha
In the moments we 've 2 new cities to grow and make buildings, in few turns one more, in 2 other we build hybrid, they are not ready for military the next 5-10 turns, we 've 2 military towns at Bode and 3 at Sol.

If we play for war, I would prefer to change civics to theo and build units and whipp, so that we 've every turn 2-3 new units and destroy our production for this. Alone the changing of civics cost enormously, but without we 've not good enough units. And we need good units not so much, because Maw can't build them, they 'll build archer and cats, with that and some fast units (they 've now) they can destroy many stacks.

AlphaShard
Dec 17, 2010, 09:24 AM
All Procyon needs is a Barracks and it can build military units. I also agree with Theo, were going to need the XP.

BLubmuz
Dec 17, 2010, 09:54 AM
There's another thing to note: why Quat moved the stack to Gold city, then back to Iron? That iron could have been pillaged 2 turns ago. At present, it's still there.
And another thing not clear: we have seen some of the Quat units lightly damaged, now they are more. From where came the units attacking them?

In any case, we must not fall in the trap of building only military because we're at war. We must continue to develop our cities, so we can advance in techs. It's the only way to win this war and this game. Along with numbers when fighting.

I think we all agree to retreat the troops in the closer EI, waiting to have 5 full of them to unload on that f****** island.

I also think that the priorities for the new cities are:
- the one marked as B it saves maintenance for the units to be boarded.
- the one marked as Blub2 it allows the fort, much needed to bring reinforcements quickly from Sol and Anjen.

And we should not delay too much the other 2 cities: Blub3 and the Whales City.

We need to grow them fast to contribute soon to the war effort.
Also, to save on units maintenance, we can build some to 1 turn to completion, then complete them in a rush.
We can also build some archer for city defense or even for hill defense.

AlphaShard
Dec 17, 2010, 10:06 AM
Hence why I said that Sirius can build the GL. At least that's my vote anyways. Archnar and Betalguse does need to build and grow.

I just don't want anyone to forget there is a sizable Mav army on the Mav spoke and we've only a lone Maceman at the pass.

BLubmuz
Dec 17, 2010, 12:35 PM
Hence why I said that Sirius can build the GL. At least that's my vote anyways. Archnar and Betalguse does need to build and grow.

I just don't want anyone to forget there is a sizable Mav army on the Mav spoke and we've only a lone Maceman at the pass.Good to know.
And you're right about the lone mace.
I think we can stack with him 1 pike. 1 Xbow and 1 HA. They should be enough to avoid surprises. Then a road there and start building the fort. It will act as a defensive structure while waiting for the city when it can act as a canal too.

Now we need to move our units in the war zone. Are we agreed on a strategic retreat to avoid to see our units die for nothing?

HUSch
Dec 17, 2010, 01:35 PM
I think all our units go on board we 've near there a second EI.
There is not all possible. With theo is any building more expensiv.

Blub
Quat goes never to Gold. Have they left the iron and make nothing? That were nice!

I don't understand your post about the Mav Spoke army, the units are in Copper and other cities, we see them. Btw we see if they build a road there, and I did want a spy a long time to explore there. I must say that the canal-city is the last in the city queue, because we 've to few worker to make the city positive.

Alpha
I 've not seen new Mav-units at the isle.

I don't get in the game now

HUSch
Dec 17, 2010, 02:23 PM
I connect and get a trade message from Ama.
Ivory for pigs, I
So we can build Eles in our stable-cities at SOL. Eles with 5 XPs.

HUSch
Dec 17, 2010, 02:56 PM
Turn proposal
1. All units from Blub1 goes back to army point!
2. Spy goes at Dawn (who has unnamed it) and Dawn goes at Bode, why is Dawn at this Tile instead at the marked "ferry point"? We need it next turn at Achenar for the settler.
3. All units at Mavs isle goes at Nob, nob goes 3* NE and blockade.
4. want we make hunt at Barb ships? Yamato (injured 96%) and Mariner (70%) 've both 1/2 XP.
5. I would whip the lh in AC and then build there Eles.
6. In Canopus Ele also not a EI.
7. What is with my idea about getting DR from CDZ and go after nationalism, build Taj.
8. If we want another EI, we should build it in Sirius, build in this turn and then whipp.
9. enterprise goes a little and blockade.

Good day/night

BLubmuz
Dec 17, 2010, 03:09 PM
We need another EI, it's useless build a WE which we cannot use.
I know that the canal city will be a debt in the early stage, but we need that canal. Just think what we gain in terms of ships movements with that.

I think launch 2 EIs with 1XP against the barb galleys is a good idea. 1 is enough for the blockade.

Trystero
Dec 17, 2010, 08:33 PM
I logged in to moved units before our half of the turn was up (isn't this the General's job? :think: ).

Per HUSch's turn plan:

1. All units from Blub1 moved back to army point.
2. Moved the spy from Sirius onto Dawn Treader. Moved DT to Bode "ferry point" (I was not sure if this was the correct place on Bode to move the spy, but it's close to a road)
3. All units on Mavs island loaded onto Nobody. Nobody moved 3 NE and blockaded.
4. Moved Mariner (caravel) and Yamato (EI) NW toward barb ships.
5. I wasn't sure where we wanted Enterprise, so I set it to blockade.

I think these were all the unit moves we could do. I haven't done any of the worker moves, or switched the builds.

We got DR from CDZ, so I switched research to Nationalism (for Taj) and moved the slider back up to 100%.

Are we going to build an EI man or the GL in Sirius? I really don't know. I've decided that all my Civ4 experience is playing against AI, not humans, and my intuition is lousy for MP. So my opinions aren't correct about most things. I am going to defer to more experienced MPs.

Edit: One thing is pretty clear, we shouldn't attack Mavs again until we have an overwhelming military force.

BLubmuz
Dec 18, 2010, 03:12 AM
I logged in to moved units before our half of the turn was up (isn't this the General's job? :think: ).Yes, but yesterday i haven't seen a clear decision on the retreat. So i thought you'd like to discuss, but last time i checked before bed no one said nothing. Even if that was the only thing to do, i was alone.

About the GLib, i've seen Alphasard agree with me that's worth build it. It costs like a couple units and the benefits are big. Not clear what HUSch thinks, but i don't remember screams.

HUSch
Dec 18, 2010, 03:40 AM
Blub
When do you want a next attack? In which turn with, what kind of units? Please make a proposal/plan. Then we can see and make a good mm. We don't have 2 EI with 1 XP, Mariner is a cara.

I like to play peaceful, but the opinion is, that we want a town of Mav, best Injinya. So we had to build units. We can build the Glib and other WW. If we build Glib, we should not research with high rate.

Tristero
What is an overwhelming military force. Our units make 've a good defense at hills, in every conquered town, they are sitting ducks. For units we need gunpowder (musks) or feuda (Longbows).

BLubmuz
Dec 18, 2010, 03:49 AM
I asked a couple days ago to ask to our allies when they think to complete Feud.

With the kind of troops we have at present, i think we must unload 5 EI at once. With the WEs things can go better, since they can defend against Xbows better than any other unit. I would even propose a couple archers. With CG1 in a city they can make a good job. They're cheap to build and cheap to upgrade to LBs.

I'll connect to the game later to draft a list. I need to take note of all the units we have.
We must keep some in Bode.

Trystero
Dec 18, 2010, 12:36 PM
Tristero
What is an overwhelming military force. Our units make 've a good defense at hills, in every conquered town, they are sitting ducks. For units we need gunpowder (musks) or feuda (Longbows).

I mean either we have an advantage in numbers or tech such that we can survive counterattacks. We presently don't have a tech advantage, despite the ETTA.

The turn ends in about 9 hours. Please post suggestions for worker/city micro/builds. I will have chance to play in a few hours, but I will be out tonight when the turn ends.

HUSch
Dec 18, 2010, 02:37 PM
I can and want not decide, what to build in Sirius, both (EI or Glib) are important. Decide you or another.

Alpha goes NW
cave N
wb east
cross from Arc to army point
LP to army point and mine for the new town

BLubmuz
Dec 18, 2010, 05:21 PM
I strongly recommend the GLib in Sirius.

For the rest, i'll do something tomorrow, busy day today.

Trystero
Dec 18, 2010, 06:35 PM
I can and want not decide, what to build in Sirius, both (EI or Glib) are important. Decide you or another.

Alpha goes NW
cave N
wb east
cross from Arc to army point
LP to army point and mine for the new town

Turn proposal
5. I would whip the lh in AC and then build there Eles.
6. In Canopus Ele also not a EI.


I strongly recommend the GLib in Sirius.

For the rest, i'll do something tomorrow, busy day today.

I've made all these moves and taken screenshots, but I have not ended the turn. I settled on the GL in Sirius. If we want to switch to EI in Sirius we can do so. Even if we put one turn into GL I don't think the hammers will go to waste.

I will post a report after I take the family to a performance of Dicken's "A Christmas Carol".

Update: I logged in to check on Mav's recapture of the city, and an AP vote came up:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0471.jpg

I voted "No" since i had to vote something. Do we only qualify for this because we captured the city? Is that why Mavs pulled their troops out of the city? So we would be held to the result of an AP vote?

AlphaShard
Dec 19, 2010, 05:31 AM
So they haven't recaptured the city at all?

HUSch
Dec 19, 2010, 05:34 AM
Why? Blub is logged in, and he can say it.