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Alltriia
May 04, 2011, 02:04 PM
With open borders, can another civ ship enter one of our cities? Or can they run the GM mission from an adjacent tile?

AlphaShard
May 04, 2011, 04:06 PM
Yes and no, the GM has to be in a city at least. I don't think it could run the mission the turn it landed, I never saw them enter the city.

Irgy
May 04, 2011, 04:23 PM
... neither ship entered our city.

Don't forget also, the ship can move in, do the trade mission, then move out in the same turn. Or more to the point during the same log-in. Which isn't that strange a thing to do, it's exactly how I'd do it, assuming the ship wasn't out of movement points. Why end the turn in the city if you're finished what you're doing there?

AlphaShard
May 04, 2011, 05:28 PM
Is there a way To prove they did the trade mission? I think they used the gm for a golden age.

Irgy
May 04, 2011, 05:57 PM
So did they get a significant gold increase or not? If they didn't, and a golden age has recently started, then you're probably right that they changed their minds. They may well have done so only after seeing the amount of gold they'd get from the mission (for instance), or at least after committing to send their ships.

We can always ask them...

AlphaShard
May 04, 2011, 11:25 PM
A little turn update here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=289151&stc=1&d=1304570543

It would take 2 turns for the worker named Fed to arrive at the Galleon meanwhile Hadar is cracking a worker out in 1 turn. We need to develop the cities on Comet, one worker is not going to be enough for that. Also the culture has been pushed back around Midi and New Lake city and the path is orange once again.

I put in new build orders for cities that finished their production, do we want to build religous culture buildings there? Building culture there for now.

Irgy
May 05, 2011, 12:02 AM
I put in new build orders for cities that finished their production, do we want to build religous culture buildings there? Building culture there for now.

I'm all for building buildings of any description rather than just pure building culture. Building culture directly is a last resort or a desperate short term push, not a good strategy for winning a culture war in the long term.

Let's not forget as well, if all we ever do in these cities is build culture and culture buildings, why do we even bother to have them? Working less tiles but building something useful is better than working more tiles to build more useless culture. Building culture puts us on an enternal commitment to worthlessness for these cities.

It's not that bad because they hopefully provide more commerce than they cost in upkeep, even if their production is directed to ultimately pointless activities, but you get the point.

AlphaShard
May 05, 2011, 12:07 AM
Well I'd like to do University's or Dikes in these cities next, with our Rush buying ability we can shorten there build times.

HUSch
May 05, 2011, 10:03 AM
The CDZ message is answer at the ingame message about coal, I made last turn. I have and was saying we need an ally other than Ama.

About the Ama ships at our shores, naturally can they land and make a merchant-action in turn, without our seeing; but why did they need 2 ships for it (a gallon and a cara), that is my question. I haven't looked at the F4-tech the last turns, so I don't know, if they get money. In the moment (T 1360) they couldn't make spy action at us.
About buildings against espionage, if you use them, you need them in every town, so its expensive. the more important is making active esp, with commerce and counteresp actions. The bigger disadvantage is changing civics 5 turn wait to rechange and anarchy additional, The bad thing about it is that you don't have to wait 5 turns as enemy.


btw
Alpha building RR in some direction is automatically imo. Its making impossible to plan amnd then see the units are not there anymore.

AlphaShard
May 05, 2011, 10:11 AM
Thats why I left all the tags for where we need RR. Which is alot on Bode.

AlphaShard
May 05, 2011, 06:54 PM
I am going to start refering to Mav as Hoag isle now according to this list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_galaxies) of Galaxies since we've laready used Bode and Comet from it.

HUSch
May 08, 2011, 04:23 AM
What is the nonsense with RR at Bode, there is now no RR from Arc to BC, why? What are you doing there. We are in war, and 'll win it, but the home is disorganized. The same in Anjen.

In Hoag we don't need dikes, without lh is this nonsense and we 've there enough other tiles to work for a long time.
And Buildings libs, forge, lh, market etc.

At Comet is the court more important than any other building after culture.

I 've changed at both, aditional quicked the granary in Deneb, next turn change mine to oasis.

AlphaShard
May 08, 2011, 05:11 AM
The tags should all say +1 Hammer. Besides I didn't play last turn anyways, that was Bulb. Why is +1 Hammer a bad thing?

I imagine the dikes were placeholders. However there are river tiles currently being worked on that Island. Just saying that we have river tiles that could use extra hammers.

So no not everything is "none sense"

Alltriia
May 08, 2011, 09:53 PM
Ok, so what do we do now?
I already mentioned my thoughts on the war plans thread.

Was the 10 turn NAP accepted?

Trystero
May 08, 2011, 11:45 PM
I am still confused as to: 1) how we don't know how the peace treaty was offered, and 2) whether or not it's now in effect.

AlphaShard
May 09, 2011, 04:06 AM
The treaty isn't in effect, Quat cancelled it and then made a counter offer of peace. Then Husch cancelled that.

BTW we have 7 hours to play our turn if were still doing this war.

Alltriia
May 09, 2011, 06:27 AM
And WHO offered the cease fire is what I would like to know first...if indeed it was as Q mentioned.

AlphaShard
May 09, 2011, 07:04 AM
I don't know it doesn't make any sense Bulb loggs in, declares war, then you logged in and then I did but none of us offered the cease fire. Sooo either one of the three of us is lying, Q is lying or something really messed up is going on in the logging system.

BLubmuz
May 09, 2011, 08:30 AM
I've sent a message in F4 before to declare. Nothing complicated, just "sorry guys".

I don't know if the game mechanocs have interpreted it as a diplo event after the declaration.

Bad news from the front, look the war thread.

AlphaShard
May 09, 2011, 09:06 AM
Ah I think they misinterpretted your "sorry guys" then.

I suppose it's too late to claim we were trying to hit CTRL instead of ALT?

Ah well I just hope that we get through this.

Alltriia
May 09, 2011, 12:00 PM
So, I think we should send a couple of messages.

1st:
To Quatronia explaining that Blubmuz's line just before the attack that they percieved as an apology/cease fire was ment as a war declaration.

2nd:
To the Amazons explaning what happened. They might be really pissed with us, more than Q, actually. I know I would.

I can try the diplomacy since Irgy seems to be a bit off and if anyone doesn't want to, but I'm not an eloquent speaker/writer.

AlphaShard
May 09, 2011, 03:55 PM
Since we can see the cities of CDZ and Qaut, I wanted to dedicate 20% espionage to see what is going on at Mer Isle. We only need it for one turn.

HUSch
May 10, 2011, 02:23 AM
That isn't a wrong idea; I'm also interested, if Ama is making any combat there; i (for myself) fear Amas army more than anything else.

Alltriia
May 10, 2011, 03:31 AM
Since we can see the cities of CDZ and Qaut, I wanted to dedicate 20% espionage to see what is going on at Mer Isle. We only need it for one turn.
I agree.

HUSch
May 10, 2011, 11:09 AM
When do we get EsP against Ama?

Alltriia
May 11, 2011, 03:05 AM
Can you all that still haven't actively voiced their oppinion on my messages to Amazon and Quatronia do so, please? We're delaying stuff that has a certain load of urgency.

HUSch
May 12, 2011, 02:03 PM
I looked at the game, we see now Mers isle.
There are 2 Ama frigs and 3 CDZ-galls. Very strong army there. No Ama-rifles.

I moved the worker at Anjen also.

Alltriia
May 14, 2011, 10:24 AM
Nothing relevant untill now. Only five whips from Q.

I think we're slaking off. We should be in full steam.

AlphaShard
May 14, 2011, 10:30 AM
Nothing relevant untill now. Only five whips from Q.

I think we're slaking off. We should be in full steam.

Agreed.

Were currently waiting for a reply from Amazon and Quat.

Alltriia
May 16, 2011, 05:43 AM
I loged in and some cities finished their queues:
Sirus: Finished Machine Gun (I've put another one)
Arcturus: Finished Cavalry (Same)
Antares: Finished Dike(started Barracs)
Feel free to change anything.


There's a bunch of unmoved pieces around, mainly workers.
The spyes are worthless if they are kept in our home island. Let's put one in Q's island and use the other one to check Hoag (the south spoke).

AlphaShard
May 16, 2011, 06:45 AM
The spys were built to guard the cities from enemy spy actions. However we move them and make more.

So are we staying in War?

Most of the workers are focusing on making RR.

Alltriia
May 16, 2011, 10:32 AM
Counter intelligence? Didn't thought of that. Nice!

No reply from neither one.

Wait, focused as in automated or 'build RR from point A to point B'?
In either case I wouldn't be able to see them in green status but red.

AlphaShard
May 16, 2011, 10:42 AM
Build RR from point A to B, but we can manually do that anyhow since I thnk most of the tiles have now gotten RR, at least in Bode.

EDIT: Moved workers.

Where is everyone? Husch? Bulbmuz? Trystero?

I think the silence from Amazon and CDZ is really really deafening.

HUSch
May 17, 2011, 03:47 AM
sry
I ve a RL and some problems with it.

Alltriia
May 17, 2011, 04:01 AM
I think the silence from Amazon and CDZ is really really deafening.
Yeah, let's buffup so that we don't get any surprises.
I would like to have all warriors, archers, etc, upgraded. Can we do this?
Q just had another whip session.

What do you guys think about we using Amazon's espionage strategy on Merlot to weaken Q land? We do have the points and only need to build a couple more spyes.

No problem, HUSch.

AlphaShard
May 17, 2011, 04:09 AM
Yeah we may have to do that, sabotage there cities, throw them in revolt, etc.

BLubmuz
May 17, 2011, 01:01 PM
Where am I?
Following the thread, but actually not contributing.

Why?

I don't know what to do. I don't know how we want win this game.

Since we're at peace i propose to set research at max and launch a GAge. Be the first on physics, then to AL, then artillery. I'd like to see what Quat can do to counter Infantry+Artillery.

Then we must decide how to win.
We're big enough to repel any attack and to beat the others in tech.
My plan was to take Quat (just because they are near), then decide if go for Space or for Conq/Dom.

Space is doable, with some trick on buiding parts we can avoid sabotages.

Let's build the IW in one of the Bode's cities, let's have a powerful navy and a powerful army. We can even stop warring, if you think it's better.

We need an army only for the Anjennida/Comet cities, the islands and Bode can be defended by the forts and the navy placed on the points.

Alltriia
May 17, 2011, 03:59 PM
New turn. How come we didn't had a score increase?

We're not at peace and the ETTT is still active. I do want to discuss this in-Sirius and clear it with the Amazons after it.

We might need to brute-force Q, anyway. We need to re-set/refine our commerce machine, research a couple of military techs before Q and go for the throat. We do have two GCs, right?



We can always send a message to the Amazons mentioning the actual situation, forcing them to reply to our previous messages or we will throw their 'choice A' to the bottom of the sea. I'll try to set up a draft tomorrow.

AlphaShard
May 18, 2011, 04:39 AM
We need to proceed to the tech with Destroyers. My concern is that it will just get taken through Amazon EP's and handed out. So we may really have to go all out and all military in every city to overwhelm Quat.

Alltriia
May 18, 2011, 05:52 PM
How come? They don't have that EPs on us. Infact, I think we have more on them.

Ok, but destroyers aren't enough. We also need atleast Infantry(or Marines if Q goes for Machine Guns).

So, we also need to discuss which of our plans do we tell the Amazons (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10507743&postcount=114). Also, asking them when the hell do they intend to invade and if they want to extent the pact (SAP, ASP, whatever). They do seem interest to continue it.

AlphaShard
May 18, 2011, 07:09 PM
Ships to protect our islands from the Frigates, unless we tech Mil Sci and make Ship of the Line.

Alltriia
May 19, 2011, 10:20 AM
You guys want to build the Temple of Artemis? If not building in Rigel because of the whooping +8 culture and our deal with the Amazons in Anjinida, then Procyan is a good candidate as it is outputing 20 gold/turn from trade routes.

All the new build queues that still have Cavalry need to be replaced by Rifleman as we have enought 'Gunships' and we will need Infantry in a bit.

Techs:
After Military Science(in 1turn) do you think it's better to go right away to Assembly Line or do we go first for Scientific Method(1 turn), burn a GS on Physics and only then Assembly Line?

I've made a couple of changes. Lord Parkin and Pindicator are in the Titan right by Acrux to help develop the new island. I've started Azzaman333 to change a farm that was built on dyes to a plantation and ends in four turns.
I've added a couple more workers to some cities queues as we need them. They're not in front of the queue so they can be deleted or replaced.
As I write this, there's still four and an half hours for the end of the turn. If nobody else logs-in before the end of the turn, I will and move all the stuff that still hasn't been moved.

AlphaShard
May 19, 2011, 10:45 AM
I don't think we will have enough time to get benefits from ToA before it cancels with Sci Method.

I won't be able to log in at all until the next turn comes around (still at work) but when you play the turn please take screen caps and update our Turn tracker thread.

Yeah I think it's time to break the Sci Method barrier.

Alltriia
May 19, 2011, 11:42 AM
I've tested it. Using a GS only adds some beakers to the Physic's pool. It's great to have some foot already in it as we might need electricity soon for Industrialism(if we're going to rush for Marines), but I thought that burning a GS would give the tech immediatly. In that case, I would prefere to go for Assembly Line right after MiliSci.

Alltriia
May 19, 2011, 04:24 PM
New turn. We have exactly 3000 points.
Choose Scientific method and adjusted slider (40%)to finish in one turn.

I've requested a world map exchange to Amazon to give the impression that we don't have enough ESP points to see what's going on in the Merlot island. They can't know how much we have on another civ, right?

I toke the liberty to use one IE with three units to pickup a spy from Achenar and drop it later around Procyon so that it can be sent south to Hoag.
I'm also moving two cavalry units to Comet through the Nexus, or do you think those two should stay there for now?

Bode RR network almost finished.

Anyone working the micro?

AlphaShard
May 20, 2011, 04:46 AM
No I don't think they can know how much we have against another civ. I don't know what is going on at Merlot island. Why they are producing Wealth in ALL of there cities. Maybe Amazon is extorting gold out of them so they can stay in the game.


I think we can continue to send troops to Comet so long as Bode and Sol have defenses as well as Anjen(at least something that doesn't say "come and conquer".

Alltriia
May 20, 2011, 01:22 PM
Amazon decided to add Military Science to the worldmap deal. I've declined and mentioned that we would write something fast. We need to work out with Amazon(and CDZ) what to do concerning the ETTT and Q right away!

You guys think it's helpfull start building Granadiers?

I've added some Ship of the Line to city queues with drydocks.

I'm still not done for today.

EDIT: Oh, right! I toke the navy fleet from the water to give them a false sence of security. I'm just delaying untill the Ships of the Line don't show up in the region. Did I rush stuff? We can still put them all back.

Alltriia
May 20, 2011, 05:10 PM
I've drafted something quick (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10515011&postcount=736) for the Amazons and would like the team thoughts on it as fast as possible.

AlphaShard
May 20, 2011, 05:51 PM
We shouldn't half attack so it's cool to wait until we ARE ready.

Alltriia
May 21, 2011, 08:30 AM
It seems that Ama finaly made their move.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=290628&stc=1&d=1305987975Sorry about the color coding. I know it's hard to distinguish both colors. Amazon only has one stack in there with all units in bleeding. I'll update the letter to reflect this.

AlphaShard
May 21, 2011, 11:35 AM
I believe we can build Uni's in our Comet cities. We have pushed back Amazon Culture. Maybe we can do a Hermitage in Mirza?

Alltriia
May 21, 2011, 08:29 PM
Quick update as a new turn kicked in.
Burning a GS will add 2178 beakers to the physics pool(5980 beackers in total).
Assembly line will take five turns at 90-100% with a whooping -472Gold/turn. It's at 0% untill we decide on what to do.
We can also start a golden age with one GS, burn the other GS in kickstarting Physics and have it researched in two/three turns(just tested).

Q aparently only has one oil resource(SW of their island on the ocean, so plastics. I think this might be the way to get them. Without oil baised units, they're screwed).

Too late now. I'll think more clearly tomorrow.

Alltriia
May 22, 2011, 01:04 PM
What about the Hermitage not in Mizar but in Aldebaran to preassure New Lake City and Midi?

Also, We can go right away for combustion and have it in 4 turns (same as in GA, but the GA will give us much better Gold benefict from the needed waiting turn (+1068G)).
Q is researching Scientific Method and aparently is due in 4 turns(at 100% as they have almost 2500G in treasury) and they can research combustion right away, too.

They are building two Ship of the Line at the moment(can't find any already build, probably hidden?), but I can't find any city of them with a drydock while we're building ours only in cities with the facility(3, 4 cities)(1 already in the water, two next turn, one in two turns and one more city with SofL in the queue).
We're also using four cities to massbuild Granadiers.

The only ones that have land oil tiles are us, Amazon(one in Anjennida right to the south of Saber, I think) and CDZ with two in Cigar (near The Library and Bacon).
The other spokes(Bode, Hoag and Marathon) might have the aluminium as I definitly see the conquest for the Nexus Uranium comming up.

So, here's my proposal:
We burn a GS in a GA, research Combustion for 3+1 turns(build oilfields and start on destroyers and subs). Burn the other GS to kickstart Physics and have it in 3 turns (Possibly 2 turns if the Gold saved from the Combustion turn delay allows it)(There we also get another GS).

Ideas?

EDIT: Here's Amazon SoD fully healed?!? From 9.7 to 14HP in one turn? Is it possible? They don't have a supermedic there.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=290691&stc=1&d=1306091414

Alltriia
May 23, 2011, 10:07 AM
People, it's almost time. What do we do?

AlphaShard
May 23, 2011, 10:25 AM
I like your proposed teching plan Alltriia. Go for it.

Alltriia
May 23, 2011, 10:44 AM
Anyone else?

I also drafted a reply (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10522508#post10522508) to the latest Amazon letter (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10521210#post10521210). You guys care to share some wisdom on it?

AlphaShard
May 23, 2011, 10:51 AM
That looks good. I think they may worry were warmongering. We may have to assure them somehow that were not... I dunno this is a difficult to thing to work around. One hand there "can only be one" sort of thing. I think we should express wanting to continue the NAP with Amazon.

Is Space a victory we want to try for? Otherwise it's only a matter of time.

Alltriia
May 23, 2011, 11:28 AM
Well, it's kind of difficult to deny it as we wore infact warring. Mev and Q right after? Shure we wore. :)

I left them an open space to draft something. Let's see what they come up with. I also asked them if they wanted to extended the pact in a prior letter.

Not shure. You think conquest is a waste of time? I would like to go for the Space race, yes. :)

EDIT: I've burned the GS into a GA. It's on for 12 turns. Anyone want to change civics while we're in the prosperity?
I also put all ESP points weight to Q as we will be needing them soon.

Alltriia
May 23, 2011, 04:49 PM
New turn and Amazons comes hammering asking for Scientific Method. Didn't gave it (disconnected the cable without logging out throught the client so the request is still up) as I'm asking the team (especially Trystero) to check this message (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10522508#post10522508) to send as soon as possible.

EDIT: I'm thinking on send it at the middle of this turn. Anyone else with insight on it?

Alltriia
May 25, 2011, 10:08 AM
So, what do you guys think we should do?

A) Send Scientific Method to Amazon and CDZ and explaining them the edge we might have if Q never get oil.

or

B) Still refuse untill we have a re-vamped agreement?

I'm thinking option A. Four hours to the end of the turn. Nothing was moved from our game since last turn.

AlphaShard
May 25, 2011, 10:16 AM
At least give Amazon the Tech. We have to show good faith here.

AlphaShard
May 26, 2011, 07:50 PM
Amazon have captured a Merlot home island city.

CDZ is researching Physics in 12.

And we lost the Capricorn, was that an EI or Frigate?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=291061&stc=1&d=1306460987

Alltriia
May 27, 2011, 04:54 PM
Did Merlot just founded Royal Baths?

You guys want to go for Assembly Line and Communism(more or less seven turns, right?) since CDZ is researching physics? It will be done in five turns. If we want to coordenate anything with them, let's think of sending them a message. Altho they might not reply.

New turn:
We can build and upgrade Frigates to Destroyers right now and we do have over 1000G. We might want to consider upgrading some and throw some at the fleeing stack.

Hermitage is in Aldebaran's build Queue and due in four turns.



And I'm stepping down. We don't have anyone doing micro and when several people login without a plan to folllow and doing their own thing, the game turns into a ruined salad. Example is Mav island. What's more urgent? Mines or plantations on dyes? Dividing the workers or use them in pairs?

From now on I'll just stick to the forum and that's it.

AlphaShard
May 27, 2011, 05:11 PM
Just so you know I haven't logged in for days and the one time that I have I only took a screen cap. I haven't done any micro of anything. I agree at this point we just need one person playing the turns and only one. That's why I asked Bulb to please up date the turn tracker thread.

Also Royal Baths got founded a long time ago, they've had four cities there for quite sometime now.

BLubmuz
May 27, 2011, 05:23 PM
Hey Alltriia, i logged yestrday night and made a few worker moves.
My rule was: if we need a RR on a non-roaded hill just one, to save the lost turn, otherwise 2.

I don't see urgent improve the farmed dyes, the farms help the cities grow with a decent commerce. Once the quick RR are done, we can concentrate on the other improvements.

Yeah, Quat retreated. I upgraded 3 frigates and 2 EIs. I suggest to revolt to representation, we need some beaker from specialists, provided we run some.
For few turns we need the gold to upgrade, not to rush-buy.

There's now a war situation like the one with Mavs: Quat can't move from their island or they will be sunk. But they have an impressive army.

So i suggest to:
- switch back to land units and a few transports (maybe). We can avoid to upgrade the EIs in ferry duties for now. 2 between the homeland and 1 between former Mavs' island should be enough. The remaining must be in Quat's area, possibly after an upgrade. We can also avoid to upgrade the ships on the northern point for now.

- we need cannons, grens and rifles, but if we burn the GS on Physics we can switch to AL and build infantries. Better a GS than a GSpy. And we can probably have both.
2-3 more turns at 0 should be enough to gather all the money we need for upgrades.

- No more ships, we have an impressive navy, we need just to field it.

Please remember that we must move all our units in the first half of the turn, to be safe. I asked this time ago to an admin.

Alltriia
May 27, 2011, 06:02 PM
We can have both, yes. And I would go for it even if it makes CDZ angry(and I really don't care as they don't even try to coordinate research and are infact two messages 'delayed'), but it would delay Infantry.

Can anyone make an assessment on our Grenadier army and the possibility of using it as soon as possible with the bonous against Q's rifleman? (Only assessment, let's not jump the gun again)

Can we start wacking at their navy stack with Destroyers?

EDIT: BTW, It might have been more productive to upgrade only the Frigates this turn as our EIs have the same capacity as the transports with only one less range.

I asked about he civics change right before starting the GA. We really need to talk about it. I feel as we're letting so much stuff going to waste.

AlphaShard
May 27, 2011, 06:42 PM
Which Civic do you want to go for Alltriia?

If we can make Destroyers then BY ALL MEANS DO IT!!!!

I also agree with Bulbs assement of food over plantationing every dye source. Right now I'd maybe only do two dyes at most.

BLubmuz
May 28, 2011, 04:13 AM
Can we start wacking at their navy stack with Destroyers?

EDIT: BTW, It might have been more productive to upgrade only the Frigates this turn as our EIs have the same capacity as the transports with only one less range.Fact is that i upgraded 2 transports for less than the price of a destroyer. And transports can be used as destroyers against wooden ships. And this is what i wanna do.I asked about he civics change right before starting the GA. We really need to talk about it. I feel as we're letting so much stuff going to waste.Again, sorry to have not followed the thread in the last days, but i was busy.

The only change we can use is representation, at least until we have upgraded our navy.
Provided we can run some specialist (mainly Sci and Eng).
We have enough production in our mature cities to not need to rush buy anything.
5-6 turns can be enough.
If we can make Destroyers then BY ALL MEANS DO IT!!!!

I also agree with Bulbs assement of food over plantationing every dye source. Right now I'd maybe only do two dyes at most.Sure, we need food to work the mines and to grow. With Bio a farmed grassland-dye gives 4F+3C (4 in GAge).

Alltriia
May 28, 2011, 02:19 PM
Fair enough.

Civics:
OK, I think we should change Legal to Free Speech.
Go for Communirm right away for State Property and then Assembly Line for Infantry. Then back to Physics since CDZ and even Amazon don't seem too conserned about voicing tech cooperation.
Truth be told, if CDZ didn't had Combustion, we would still be teching it instead of being able to build Destroyers.

BLubmuz
May 31, 2011, 07:52 AM
Is anyone still alive?

AlphaShard
May 31, 2011, 09:53 AM
Is anyone still alive?

Yes were waiting for your update.

Alltriia
May 31, 2011, 05:19 PM
Yes.
And I don't care for MTDG II anymore.

Trystero
May 31, 2011, 06:09 PM
I'm still around and checking in. Sorry I can't be more involved. I'm in the middle of a job search, and haven't logged in to the game in so long, so I'm not sure how much help I can be.

AlphaShard
May 31, 2011, 08:39 PM
Well thanks for not playing last turn at all Bulb.

BLubmuz
Jun 01, 2011, 05:39 AM
I was busy and when i checked Civstats i've seen we were out of our time frame.

Since usually someone takes in charge the turn iwasn't too worried. But checking now i see that non one did it.

In addition i've seen Alltriia wants leave.

Now i try to ask the Admins to reload the last turn.

BTW Alpha, can you play if needed? It doesn't seems so.

Again, sorry, but i thought anyone else could play this turn. If i know i am the only possible active player i can take the commitment.

AlphaShard
Jun 01, 2011, 07:57 AM
I can play I was just trying to allow you to do the turn. We still could have done worker moves and build orders.

BLubmuz
Jun 01, 2011, 08:50 AM
OK, in any case i'll try my best to check Civstats and play when needed.

Not much to do in terms of MM, but we must decide which tech path follow and what build.
About the war, i'll log shortly, then i'll try to plan something.

And the Diplo? Who can take it in charge? and what we do?

AlphaShard
Jun 01, 2011, 10:31 AM
Let's stock gold for another 1-2 turns until the last Merlot city is taken. I believe it should be soon and then once Merlot is proper finished off we can be properly done with ETT.

I'm not sure what's going on with CDZ missing two turns, maybe they really HAVE had membership troubles and thus no one doing there own diplo. If we have another "Mav abandoning the game" that will have to be disscussed in the main section.

We at the very least should do continue our NAP with Amazon.

I wouldn't mind a space race but with the way things are going were going to need to bee-line the Air techs very soon. It looks like your going to get your modern war, I just want to win this before we get nukes. It's a vain hope I think to wish that the Map maker removed any Uranium.

BLubmuz
Jun 01, 2011, 11:17 AM
We can know this soon. Uranium is revealed by Physics and we're few turns away.

Then we can decide.

I just logged. I think that NOW our navy is impressive. A few upgrades and we're done with it. Land units is what we need.

The first to circumnavigate will be the first to subs, so Radio.

AlphaShard
Jun 01, 2011, 09:05 PM
Glad you remembered that, we should go for Radio first then, get at least two subs and send them two directions. Though I think one going west will do fine there. Hell maybe we can find that GL Barb city. *heh*

AlphaShard
Jun 07, 2011, 06:03 AM
Did we play our turn?

BLubmuz
Jun 07, 2011, 08:53 AM
Did we play our turn?Yes, did it... just in time.

I loaded all the transports avaiable with cannons, MGs and some few mixed troops. But we need more, so i wait for more trasports to arrive.

Please let's stop build navy, we have enough now.

I propose to keep the research @0 for this turn to gather some gold, then start researching again, always keeping a strategic reserve of 500-600 gold for quick upgrades. We can also burn the GS on physics, to win the free one. (and to deny him to our competitors).

About last Ama's message, do you have some idea? We must answer soon, IMO.

AlphaShard
Jun 07, 2011, 09:24 AM
I did stop production on ships that had no hammers invested but I don't want to waste the hammers on the ones already invested. Also we lost a ship a few turns back, Capricorn was that a transport or warship?

BLubmuz
Jun 07, 2011, 04:02 PM
I did stop production on ships that had no hammers invested but I don't want to waste the hammers on the ones already invested. Also we lost a ship a few turns back, Capricorn was that a transport or warship?Sure, no waste of hammers. Just changed the queues if no hammers in ships. Capricorn was an EI, IIRC.

I must know if you agree about restart at full research and about burn the GS on Physics. As i said in the Ama diplo th. i plan to play in 12 hours and continue prepare the invasion. 2 more transports are on their way to Alcor.
After the landing there will be a slaughter, we must keep alive the max possible number of units.

AlphaShard
Jun 07, 2011, 04:51 PM
Sure let's get to Physics quickly and burn the GS for it.

Trystero
Jun 07, 2011, 06:09 PM
If we do this we are going to have more problems with Amazon. Recall that they expect us to give them any new techs researched, and that they will then be obligated to give those techs to Q. So they asked us to stop teching.

I think the real problem here is that Amazon is trying to play the game one way and we are trying to play it another. They really seem to enjoy the role-playing/diplomacy aspect of multiplayer, while we are just playing to win as quickly as we can.

I agree that at this point I don't see the purpose of the ETTT, or why Amazon thinks it still serves any purpose. In reality relations with Amazon are just complicating everything we do. I think we should try to (diplomatically) get ourselves out of our treaty agreements, since we aren't intending to honor them anyway.

My real concern is that it will soon be clear we are the biggest threat, so we need to have troops and ships to fight everybody, not just enough to conquer Q.

I will try to think about a response to Amazon, but I really don't know what I should tell them.

BLubmuz
Jun 08, 2011, 01:43 AM
I will try to think about a response to Amazon, but I really don't know what I should tell them.Start from my draft in the Ama diplo thread! If no other comment, i must send it later today.

BLubmuz
Jun 08, 2011, 08:46 AM
The gmail account ask me to answer to a question. I can't log there, so i send the message to sommerswerd via PM.

Play in few hours.

AlphaShard
Jun 08, 2011, 09:24 AM
Yeah I think we became that threat awhile ago and I'm sure the other teams know it. Were going to have to focus on military to show we are not weak and an open target.

AlphaShard
Jun 08, 2011, 10:30 AM
I did a partial play, since were nearing the end of our military move time. I put in builds for barracks at key cities so they can at least build experienced defenders. I put a bank in Canopus because they are making 84g so I think that needs one. Everywhere else is focused on military. I moved more of our Destroyer's to the Quat island. Only upgraded two ships to destroyer class.

Quat is building Destroyers of there own.

BLubmuz
Jun 08, 2011, 01:32 PM
Not only CDZ and Ama gave Quat conbustion, but also oil. This is a declaration of war :mad:
How do you think we can act diplomatically?

The 2 workers in Anjennida were building an oil well over a town. We need a cottage or a workshop in an unimproved tile and some border railroad, just to be safe. I think we can continue the oil well as a "strategic reserve" until 1 turn to completion. Those 2 workers will stay in the area, so, no problems.

We can't complete Physics in 2 turns at binary, we need more cash. But i think is worth run non-binary for 2 turns starting next turn. Our break-even is @ 70%. so np.

AlphaShard
Jun 08, 2011, 03:13 PM
I honestly dont know what to say to them anymore. I am not surprised though it makes more sense to get rid of the bigger threats. Then Amazon can do whatever they like once were out there way.

BLubmuz
Jun 11, 2011, 07:19 AM
I played the last turn. Need to wait for 3 more transports (1-2 turns away) to land pretty safely.

But the first thing i need to know is if anyone is still on this team and ask him to give some contribution. I'd like to avoid what Slaze did, basically finish the game alone.

In any case i will try to complete this game. My only problems can be in some 15 days and for 2-3 days where i probably can't actively play.

AlphaShard
Jun 11, 2011, 08:59 AM
Did Slaze say that Bulb? Because the Merlot played with only one turn player, other players then did other roles for their game.

Well Trystero and LP are the only ones that have done anything recently or kept any tabs. I don't know where Irgy or Husch are, try pming them. Apparently this happened in the last game as well where people kept leaving until there was just Husch playing on his team. At least Alltriia let us know he was quitting, most just stop.

I can play turns if needed just let me know when.

Lord Parkin
Jun 11, 2011, 10:32 AM
I'm a bit busy, but can try to help out a bit to lessen the load in places. Will take a while for me to catch up on where we're at though. I do know Irgy's taken a break from Civ completely due to real life issues (probably regarding the fact that he has a new baby taking up his time). Not sure about HUSch.

AlphaShard
Jun 11, 2011, 11:23 AM
Any help would be good LP.

Mavericks and Merlot have been conquered by Us and Amazon respectively. We captured all but one Maverick city which Amazon have in the spoke. They also settled several cities into the spoke so we would have culture conflict. Amazon have finished conquering Merlot and have there entire island to themselves.

CDZ has gone defunct and were going to have to settle that issue soon I think. However we are at war with Quat as the next target.

However I do wonder if we should have just gone to war with Amazon, the 1500's have arrived and we can Honorable end all treaty's with them. Quat even admitted to us they know they can't win. I wonder if were wasting our losses on them when we should focus on the stronger target.

Lord Parkin
Jun 11, 2011, 11:37 AM
Well, it depends on the situation a bit. Often it's good to go after the weaker target to make your overall empire stronger before taking on the stronger target. Especially if you're in the lead overall in the game, like we appear to be. Of course, you have to be fairly confident that the stronger guy isn't going to backstab you in the middle of the campaign against the weaker guy. How much do we trust Amazon on that front?

AlphaShard
Jun 11, 2011, 11:49 AM
Well Amazon doesn't want to drop there ETTT with Quat/CDZ and they are also giving oil to Quat as well. This is why I think it's maybe better to focus on Amazon at this point. We can threaten Quat and I think by making a deal that we won't fight them and give them a chance to stay longer in the game they may help us against CDZ and Amazon. Especially if CDZ is going defunct.

I wonder if we might do what we did before and have one nation take over the other.

BLubmuz
Jun 12, 2011, 04:50 PM
What's this? CDZ has no more players? I noticed Socrallinek logged few minutes before me.

Som turn played. We're first on Physics.
Bad news for the space race: there's a source of Uranium under any Capital (or former).
I've started artillery and moved our invasion force back home. Research to 0 for this turn, then we can research it in 3 turns. In the meantime we can load all the transports, finally arrived in Alcor. Then we can upgrade a good bunch of cannons, or wait some more turn and upgrade all.

I propose to go for communism, to grab the GSpy (GAge with GS), then for AL, for factories and infantry.
I'm afraid the military option is the only possible, unless we sign a Nuclear ban with Ama and CDZ.

We also need to decide what to do on the diplo front. I really hope LP can help.

AlphaShard
Jun 12, 2011, 05:42 PM
Is that the only source of Uranium is the capital cities?

Sure let's grab the GSpy, Do we also want to proritize when we go for Radio and subs?

Well I fear that the CDZ Diplo front is going to suck if they barely have a turn player let alone any plans, Diplos, etc. I have the terrible feeling that were heading to another "Mavericks being abandoned" scenario.

I would love to get Nukes banned and a "Do not build Manhattan" project as well. Nukes seem really just be a game finisher.

Lord Parkin
Jun 12, 2011, 07:43 PM
We also need to decide what to do on the diplo front. I really hope LP can help.
Shared some input in the AMAZON thread. If someone in the know can provide information about whether our initial treaty with them was ever amended, I can start getting into specifics of a diplo strategy. Need to know first exactly what the terms currently agreed to are though, so I can figure out how to phrase things.

AlphaShard
Jun 12, 2011, 07:57 PM
I don't remember it being amended at any point and I thought that the only real requirement was to stay in it until M&M were gone. Which they now are. Amazon seems to want to keep it going anyways or trading techs to them.

I guess we have to cancel all treaties and make new ones.

Lord Parkin
Jun 12, 2011, 08:12 PM
Well I guess it makes sense for them to find any excuse to insist on techs being shared with them, since they're the ones that probably gain the most from it. Obviously that's no good for us in the #1 position though. I'll have a more exact look through the original ETTT agreement and see exactly what it says. Regardless though, we can't continue in this way - it makes no sense at all - so it's a matter of trying to convince AMAZON to see this too.

AlphaShard
Jun 12, 2011, 08:28 PM
Don't forget our SAP is now past it's 1500ad point as well.

BLubmuz
Jun 13, 2011, 03:12 AM
Don't forget our SAP is now past it's 1500ad point as well.Yes, but Ama wrote in their last message that the 1500 AD is just a limit to not cancel the treaty, so the treaty continues indefinitely.

Agreed about radio for subs, but first the GSpy, artillery and infantry.

Lord Parkin
Jun 13, 2011, 03:20 AM
Yes, but Ama wrote in their last message that the 1500 AD is just a limit to not cancel the treaty, so the treaty continues indefinitely.
Well that just seems silly of them. Whoever heard of an outdated alliance indefinitely continuing even after all other players outside the alliance are gone? :crazyeye:

I get the impression AMAZON are trying to push their luck and squeeze everything they can out of the ETTT right now. At this point they probably think that delaying and dragging their feet regarding the end of the alliance gives them the best possibility to win in the end. That may or may not be true, but we have to make it clear that that's not acceptable from our perspective. :)

AlphaShard
Jun 13, 2011, 06:54 AM
Yeah were going to have to make new agreements with them. We can't give them techs if they are going to continue giving them to others. So no more techs at least.

Lord Parkin
Jun 13, 2011, 07:28 AM
Yeah, I'd definitely agree that we need to stop with the tech gifts, at least until they're willing to agree not to pass them on to anyone else.

BLubmuz
Jun 14, 2011, 04:57 AM
turn played. Not much to say.
The last transport will arrive in Alcor next turn, the ones already there are fully loaded.
I've set research @80%, to complete artillery in 3 and to have some gold to upgrade 7 cannons. Alternatively, we can research it in 4 and have enough gold to upgrade all our cannons, or at least the ones near Alcor.

I'm in favor of the first option. We can unload some 40 units in 4 turns, many of them MGs and artillery, so no fear of collateral. They are also the thoughest units we can field.

I queued a transport for ferry, but an harbor after the IW.

AlphaShard
Jun 14, 2011, 10:15 AM
That sounds good Bulb, so after Artillery is Fascism, then Radio?

I think in a big picture view Amazon should just be next, they are the biggest threat to us wining the game.

BLubmuz
Jun 14, 2011, 10:53 AM
That sounds good Bulb, so after Artillery is Fascism, then Radio?Wrong! To have Fascism you need AL and we don't care much a GG.
My doubt is between AL (for Infantry - first - and for Factories) and Communism to gain the GSpy for another GAge.
After that Electricity > Radio
I think in a big picture view Amazon should just be next, they are the biggest threat to us wining the game.If we go for Space we only need to secure Anjennida, otherwise sure, Ama next.

Trystero
Jun 14, 2011, 11:12 AM
If we go for Space we only need to secure Anjennida, otherwise sure, Ama next.

If we want to go for a Space victory, why did we attack Quat? Don't we have enough territory?

I agree with the proposed tech path: no need for Fascism, really.

AlphaShard
Jun 14, 2011, 11:17 AM
I would like to go Space.

Trystero
Jun 14, 2011, 11:26 AM
For Space we'll need to build up defenses and counter-espionage. Especially the latter. Amazon built the GW, and might have a settled Great Spy. It will be pretty obvious what we are doing once we build the Apollo Program, so I would expect a lot of sabotage attempts.

AlphaShard
Jun 14, 2011, 11:38 AM
We got Security Bureau's being built on our home island, probably should get Intelligence Agecny's as well. Also get a few more spys stacked in cities as well. This has been my fear that they would just keep up there MO of using Espionage to steal techs, stifle our builds, etc.

It all depends on which you think will be easier and faster, Conquest or Space. Also I think Quat wants to live so they can try for Culture Victory.

Not to mention we will need anti-air to help from getting nuked. We should get a treaty going NOW about banning nukes and not building the Manhatten Project. Since we know that Uranium is available to everyone.

BLubmuz
Jun 15, 2011, 05:16 PM
Turn played.
I queued Notre Dame after the transport in the IW+HE city. Then, queued many science buildings in many cities, but we can change at any time if we do not agree.

This is the last turn of GAge, so if we want to change civics, it's the last chance for awhile. I'm happy with the ones we're running, i'm just debated between Free Speech and Bureaucracy. With all the towns we have, i'm thinking that maybe we can have some benefits from this too, not mentioning the 100% culture in any city, good to fight Ama culture.

I'd like to move something on the diplo front, if LP doesn't come soon with some proposal, i'll try to draft one.

AlphaShard
Jun 15, 2011, 08:17 PM
I do like the idea of Free Speech, though I am sure it will annoy Amazon. Just making sure your aware they will be annoyed with it I am sure. Course they did Emancipation first, which they are out of btw. CDZ is the only one in it.

So if you wanted to get out of Eman and into Caste or Slavery I would be fine with that. I'd like the extra hammer for Workshops and possibly running some GP farms.

BLubmuz
Jun 16, 2011, 02:37 AM
I don't care if Ama gets annoyed. I will count the villages and towns we have and compare them with the 50% for Capital. If the result (i will report) is roughly even, i will revolt. I prefer to stay in Emancipation, to piss our competitors off :D. No Doubt for Theo and FM, Representation is useless, we're almost not running specialists.

Next turn i will probably switch any developed city to build whealth (maybe research in Capital). I want upgrade all the cannons near Alcor and this is the only way. Short term objectives can bring to long term success, don't you agree?

AlphaShard
Jun 16, 2011, 06:26 AM
For how many turns of building wealth?

BLubmuz
Jun 16, 2011, 08:11 AM
For how many turns of building wealth?One or two, i'll see next turn.

BLubmuz
Jun 16, 2011, 11:53 AM
Carefully counted the towns. We got 18 + 8 soon (1 to 15 turns). With FS this makes +52 commerce, mainly in our core island.

Our Capital is making 123 commerce *1.5= 184, which makes 61. Added to Academy and OU it's better stay in Bureau. Not mentiong the hammer bonus.

Unless we want privilege the culture fight, better stay in Bureau.

AlphaShard
Jun 16, 2011, 12:54 PM
The hammer bonus is in Caste System. However that does look like we should stick to what we have.

Trystero
Jun 16, 2011, 01:02 PM
I agree with staying in Bureaucracy, we don't have enough of a CE to make FS worthwhile.

I also agree with saving for upgrades. Artillery are too good to not use if available.

BLubmuz
Jun 16, 2011, 01:36 PM
The hammer bonus is in Caste System. However that does look like we should stick to what we have.The H bonus for Caste is for Workshops. I mean the +50% on base H. production in Capital with Bureau. Added to the +50% for commerce. That's why the CS sling is so powerful and why no one with a good Capital will change this civic.

BLubmuz
Jun 18, 2011, 06:26 AM
Turn played. Good news!
A GProphet is born in Canopus, so we can skip Communism for the GSpy, or at least delay it. I see no use for a GSpy, only deny it to our opponents.

All our cities, but 2 former Indian and the new one are building whealth. Sirius is building science, 'cause the end of the GAge reduced our commerce, so Artillery was few beakers more than 1 turn.

We're @80% with almost +500 gpt, thus next turn we can have enough gold to upgrade all the cannons in Alcor.

I moved a 2nd stack of destroyers to completely block Quat's Capital and all the transports containing a cannon in Alcor, to be ready to upgrade next turn.

We have now 11 (eleven) fully loaded transports!

I also loaded the new transport (the 12th) with units from our mainland to ferry to Anjennida.

I propose to go for AL after artillery, then the Radio path, unless we decide to deny the GSpy. I see no use for it and 3 GPeople for a GAge are too much.

On the diplo front i see no news, so i'll draft a message to send to all the teams in few hours. Maybe also one only for Ama, let me think and re-read the treaties.

AlphaShard
Jun 18, 2011, 08:21 AM
Couldn't we do a holy shrine for confu?

Actually we could use that g spy as defense against amazon. Either as recon or the spy mission that gets us a ton of ep against them.

BLubmuz
Jun 18, 2011, 11:34 AM
I think that the benefit of a Shrine at this stage of the game is very limited. We benefit far more from a GAge.
Then, i'm not saying to not try for Communism, just that we don't need it badly, so it can wait.

We can probably have both, or use the GSpy as you suggest.

Let's wait when AL is almost completed before to decide. I think you agree that AL is our priority.

AlphaShard
Jun 19, 2011, 05:58 PM
Yeah that sounds good I think.

BLubmuz
Jun 20, 2011, 05:56 AM
Turn played.
I've seen a diplo from Ama with a request for Physics. Declined.

Managed to upgrade all the cannons in Alcor (12, i think) but 1, now we have 0 gold, so i've set research to 0 for this turn and started or restarted the buildings.

Land next turn.

Unloaded the transport in Anjennida with some defensive unit. The workers are improving the few land tiles left, even some useless railroad.

Started AL, we can research it in some 5 turns @70%, which is our break-even.

I propose to keep research to 0 for this turn and next one, then after some upgrade go for AL @ full speed.

BLubmuz
Jun 22, 2011, 03:06 AM
Turn played.
Started a dike in Alcor, too low on production otherwise.
Our workers are railroading because they don't know what to do. I'm building a WS near alcor and maybe we can convert the Dye farm to a plantation now that the Pyra city is big enough. Not the one near the AP city, which is food poor.

Upgraded all our cannons but the one needed for the landing. One more turn at 0, then AL.
I propos to launch the GAge once AL is finished.

Landed!
8 cavs, 11 Art, 1 cannon, 7 MG, 7 rifles, 10 grens = 44 units, 19 not damageable by collateral.
If they attack we can lose some unit, but we can heal and attack in 2 turns. If they don't, i will attack with roughly an half of the troops, to keep the other half intact to repel a counter-attack.

Trystero
Jun 22, 2011, 04:45 PM
Would you guys mind posting a few screenshots? You don't need to do it every turn, but I would like some idea of the state of the map.

BLubmuz
Jun 23, 2011, 02:58 AM
Screenies in the turn tracker thread.

I logged to see what Quat is doing. They whipped (or drafted) like mad and concentrated all their troops in their Capital.
There's a chance we can take it in 2 turns. Cannons are good to avoid collateral, but after 8 artilleries have attacked, cavalry can easily win against anything. My concern is if we have enough attackers for all the defenders.

AlphaShard
Jun 27, 2011, 07:16 AM
So I checked in game and Amazon have given half there Merlot island to CDZ.

BLubmuz
Jun 27, 2011, 07:48 AM
So I checked in game and Amazon have given half there Merlot island to CDZ.I missed it. I was concentrated in our Quat war.
I asked them the WM when i gave them physics, so you can see thanks to that.

Then they asked Artil and i refused.

No answer to our last messages (one to all and one to Ama). Until an answer and an actual trade, i cease to give away techs. It looks like Ama and CDZ are in better relations than us and Ama.

What about a GAge right after researched AL? quick factories!

Our workers are doing almost nothing, what do you think to fire someone?

BTW, Quat has concentrated some 14 cannons, 30 rifles and 5 MGs in their Capital.

We need no less than 20 artilleries + some 10 infantries added to the stack already there.

BLubmuz
Jun 27, 2011, 12:37 PM
Alpha, i'm not sure i can play next turn, which for me is tomorrow morning (i think it will start too late tonight, there's always a delay in the time showed in Civstats).

Then, i won't be able to play for 2-3 days.

Things to do:
- We can move the research to 100% next turn
- do not land any troop in Quatland. Only artillery, in case. I'm waiting to have more arties to field and to have the rifles now in Alcor upgraded to Infantry.
- We must keep the stack already there as is, to avoid losses. If Quat attacks, it will be a carnage, but we probably can keep some unit alive.
- try to squeeze artilleries, but we need also science buildings.

I'll try to watch our thread, but probably i must skip tomorrow.

AlphaShard
Jun 27, 2011, 02:38 PM
Alright I'll play next turn though I think we can expect a 3 way dog pile soon. When ever they decide that they don't want or can't get free techs out of us anymore.

Yeah the lines of communication have been really poor. I think were really going to want to get to Flight and those wonderful Bombers.

BLubmuz
Jun 28, 2011, 05:24 AM
Alpha, i managed to log and play.
Next turn i'm sure i can't play, so please take it.

Bad news from the front: Quat attacked the southern stack of destroyers, they lost 7, but all the 9 were wiped.
I can't see from the log, i needed to open the combat log. What sacres me is that he won 2 battles on the first shoot, then he used the ones in his Capital to finish the job.

I think we must build some now, but artillery first.

Set research to 100 %, AL will arrive in 3 turns with a small gold left.

I think that Notre Dame was a good idea, and i'm building Shakespeare in Rigel. The city is big and it's a good way to fight Ama culture.

GAge in right after AL?
research: Electricity, radio (subs and Christo Redentor), flight, Industrialism in that order?

I propose to forget communism.

Trystero
Jun 30, 2011, 04:40 PM
So, I take it we are at war with everybody?

AlphaShard
Jun 30, 2011, 04:42 PM
Yep the worst case scenario has happened.

I don't know if you want to try and salvage this and make peace with Quat.

Trystero
Jun 30, 2011, 04:47 PM
This isn't surprising. Our diplomacy has been awful (mostly my fault for not participating more actively). And I really can't blame the other teams. We are currently the biggest threat, and have shown that we will back stab.

I don't think there is any point in trying to make peace. Amazon's terms are ridiculous, and I can't think of why Quat would want to ally themselves with us at this point.

Edit: I would abandon attempts to conquer the Quat island for now (unless things are going well, I have no idea what the situation is, in-game). Instead I would focus on the two spokes we share with Amazon and controlling the center of the star. Also build up a navy to defend Sol and Mavs island and allow us to ferry troops to the spokes if needed.

AlphaShard
Jun 30, 2011, 04:56 PM
Because they want survive and we are a threat to them. We have never had a NAP with Quat and we could make a promise not to attack them.

I also didn't realize they were such sticklers about the world wonders.

Lord Parkin
Jun 30, 2011, 05:28 PM
They're probably grabbing at any and every reason they can think of to attack us. I doubt the wonders actually matter that much to them.

Seems from the limited stuff I've read that they pulled a sneaky low blow to screw us over. But that's not against the rules - just very questionable ethics.

I haven't really had the time to pay much attention to this game for a very long time now, so sorry if I can't offer more input.

AlphaShard
Jun 30, 2011, 06:42 PM
I just don't like that they attacked in the first half of the turn.

Anyrate Bulb are you going to play this turn?

Do we at least want to try and get one of the monkeys (Quat) off our backs even for ten turns?

BLubmuz
Jul 01, 2011, 03:02 AM
Not only i played, but did many things, then i just logged to see news:
- First i moved all our trasports, even the useless, to load the Quat invasion force and covered them with all our remaining destroyers. To use empty trasports was a good move, since Quat attacked with all theis destroyers but the empty transports defended, saving the loaded ones and 2 destroyers.
- Obviously i offered peace to Quat, but like we can see from the above events, they refused.
- I offered a deal (3 for 3) of resources to CDZ, but Socralinnek logged out when i logged in, so we must wait to see the outcome. Of course nothing has changed -for now- with CDZ. Our resource trades and borders are still open.
- I took and razed the Ama city on the coast North of Mizar, destroying 6 units and losing 2
- Now we got a stack of 4 arties+1 rifle treatening the central city
- now we got 1 rifle, 1 arty and 2 cavs near the marble city. more cavs can attack next turn.
- the Cape city is empty and a cav is ready to take it.
- Ama has (probably) all their attacking force concentrated on the center and heading to Bode.
- What really worries me are the galleons they brought there. they builded forts to pass and destroyed ours with spies prior to attack
- Altair (incense) was took and razed by a single rifle attacking from a galleon. That was the first act of the war after the spies destroyed the forts.

Our problem is to bring our main force to Bode. Luckily it's our best production area and can be pretty easily be helped by our core island, but we need one more transport.
I was thinking to keep our main force in the transports and land them in the center.
After Quat's attack this is all but safe. We lack destroyers to defend them, so we'll be forced to unload them in Alcor and keep the destroyers there.

With their impressive force Quat can invade and we can't do nothing by sea, so we must keep a good number of units in the area and hope they land there instead to move to the islands.

More on the Ama Diplo thread.

Irgy
Jul 01, 2011, 06:37 AM
This isn't surprising. Our diplomacy has been awful (mostly my fault for not participating more actively).

And my fault for quitting (although I maintain I had no real choice due to RL), and Blubmuz's fault for declaring on Quat without half the team knowing about it and generally having no understanding whatsoever of any of our treaties. I don't really think it's much to do with you Trystero.

I'm surprised it took Amazon as long as they did to declare war, they've effectively been able to from 1500AD without breaking any treaty, and I honestly cannot think of a single reason for them not to have done it. The wording we finished up with was that the ASP could be cancelled at no notice any time after 1500AD. We wanted to have a cancelation period, but they wanted to either have a cancelation period or an expiry date but not both, and we chose the date. The stuff about the wonders is just them needlessly making the point about how many ways in which we haven't been sticking to the treaty.

Anyway, excited to see how all this turns out. At least our objectives are clear now. It should be a very interesting battle.

BLubmuz
Jul 02, 2011, 06:37 AM
I played, but i must log again to refine.
Quat blocked with 2 damaged destroyers and with full health ones all the water tiles where our transports can go.
Luckily i logged few hours before the end of turns, so i upgraded a frigate.
I burnt that one and a damaged destroyer on the 2, then chosen 2 transports with the ewakest units to attack. Both won!!! Now all our invasion force is safe in Alcor. Moved a few units to take the former Mav city, with 2 units there. To take the central city 1 arty was enough, then a rifle completed the job. Razed, of course. No losses.

The marble city was costly: 1 arty survived, but then i lose 3 cavs against an MG. Now it's razed. 2 cavs are heading to the Cape city, now undefended.
I'd like to keep it, but it can be not easy to defend.

The former Mav city is a keep, i think. Let's hope to not lose too many troops in the process.

A good and lucky move i made was to burn Ama's westernmost fort with a spy, then caught. I got one in each fort now, but not enough EPs :(

Now, internal problems.
Now that we lost the luxuries from Ama and Quat, all our cities have many unhappy citizens. We must wait for CDZ to log to see if they accept our proposal, but in any case many are loo large.

I propose the following:
- launch a GAge now, this turn
- immediately revolt to representation (+3 :) in 6 largest cities) and slavery, maybe even nationhood (i think a draft is too costly in terms of happiness). Whip like mad for 5-6 turns to reduce the size of some city, then back to Emancipation. Not sure about an immediate revolt to US, since we need gold for upgrades. Maybe in the last turn of GAge. The +1hammer from Towns is not much, since we have just 10 or so (remember i counted them when we decided if FS was worthy).
- build theaters and markets in any city, obviously after some unit
- we need to rebuild our Navy
- finish Shakespeare in Rigel

I need your opinion on the above in the next 12 hours, otherwise i will act as above described.

AlphaShard
Jul 02, 2011, 07:59 AM
To help our Happiness we should build Jails which will reduce war weariness. It seems that Whale has been expired already, so we need to conquer Spot B for the ivory.

We still have incense but I think Amazon will burn it since they burned the forts, they probably should have kept those.

As far as the civics go I think Nationhood could be good as well as Slavery. However I would like State Property.

Good job burning those excess cities btw Bulb. I found it funny the smack talk 2Metra was saying yet he lost three cities to our one City Altair.

I also do not have high hopes that CDZ is going to agree with anything, the best I think we can do with them is a NAP.

Trystero
Jul 02, 2011, 08:01 AM
I also doubt CDZ is going to agree to anything. The plan looks good to me.

BLubmuz
Jul 02, 2011, 09:25 AM
To help our Happiness we should build Jails which will reduce war weariness. It seems that Whale has been expired already, so we need to conquer Spot B for the ivory.Yes, but don't forget we're Creative, thus Theaters and Colosseums are very cheap. And that we got dyes. But Jails help espionage, so i think i will build some when i can
We still have incense but I think Amazon will burn it since they burned the forts, they probably should have kept those.Ama burned the forts for tactics reasons, but sure, they can burn our plantations.
As far as the civics go I think Nationhood could be good as well as Slavery. However I would like State Property.SP requires communism, which we don't plan to research soon. But we have CHs in almost all the cities and a well placed FP. Every draft means 2-3 :mad: citizens and you got only half XP. Better whip. In case we can draft in Rigel, after the Shakespeare.
Good job burning those excess cities btw Bulb. I found it funny the smack talk 2Metra was saying yet he lost three cities to our one City Altair.That was planned, according to the signs on the map. Of course i agreed with that.
2m sent his message before i logged and i don't hink he will be surprised to see his cities razed.
BTW, what about the Cape city? Is it better to keep it to avoid settlers there or defend it can be one more problem?
I also do not have high hopes that CDZ is going to agree with anything, the best I think we can do with them is a NAP.

I also doubt CDZ is going to agree to anything. The plan looks good to me.I doubt too, but i think that the chance they can accept is worth the few seconds spent.

Trystero, can you try to draft a message for them asking for a NAP?
They ignored the most of our messages, but we need to explore any possibility.

AlphaShard
Jul 02, 2011, 09:41 AM
I think they ignore us to buy time.

I think Cape city may be worth keeping for the commerce. It's far from the front.

BLubmuz
Jul 02, 2011, 05:01 PM
News:
started the GAge (12 turns)
revolted to Representation and Nationhood. Not dared to revolt to slavery, we're at the happy cap in many cities and Rigel is still with 1:mad:. But soon that will cease to be a problem, the Globe will be completed in 3 turns.

Destroyed a galleon near Saber (SE of Rigel) i hope it was loaded. Probably 2m. counted the moves, but i promoted the destroyer to Nav1, so it's gone :D

I'm running 10% culture and 30% Espionage, set 4 to Ama, 1 to CDZ, 0 to Quat.
I hope to be able to destroy the forts next turn.
I also think that destroying the fort (as described in my previous post) the galleons in there were moved in the nearest sea tile. Luckily they were moved S, so they are almost useless for awhile.

Then i tried a defensive attack from Hadar. 2 arties made a good job and survived. Then i lack 1 rifle, so drafted from Beta C., and destroyed 5 rifles, using the mace and the XBow to mop up.

I queued a drydock in Antares - good production there - and we need to produce naval units near where they're needed.

BLubmuz
Jul 03, 2011, 04:04 PM
Disaster have stuck!
Procyon and Arcturus razed. I don't know how they manage to do it. Better... i can imagine how they did with Procyon, but Arcturus was impossible to reach. Logged again.
They have a GG Cav with Commando. Who was the one researching MS? damn him!

So Notre Dame is gone forever and we have to rebuild the HE and IW... nice!

AlphaShard
Jul 03, 2011, 04:19 PM
I believe that was Quat that did MS.

Trystero
Jul 03, 2011, 08:25 PM
Ugh. How the heck did they reach that far into Bode? What sort of defenses did we have? Did you manage any sort of counter attack?

BLubmuz
Jul 04, 2011, 03:29 AM
I believe that was Quat that did MS.Yes, they did when we were at war. I think it was HUSch who proposed to research it. I Remember we did it and gave it to Ama.
It was in the period when i was working on my PC, so a couple months ago.

Ugh. How the heck did they reach that far into Bode? What sort of defenses did we have? Did you manage any sort of counter attack?I probably (but i can almost swear i look carefully to any stack in the Center area) overlooked it, but Ama used a transport to raze Procyon, defended by a warrior.

Then (i remember i have seen a GG in the center) he used that GG to promote a Cav to C4+Commando. Easy to kill our archer and go back in the stack.

Now, if Quat will attack Comet we can easily resist and counter attack.
But if they head to former India it won't be so easy.

It's just useless remember that months ago i asked that any city should have at least a LB to defend.

Anyway, it's my fault. I could have drafted 1 rifle in both our now razed cities, but seeing they were safe i preferred to wait this turn to draft infantries. Procyon has also problems of happiness and this was another reason.

I did not thought to the Commando, it's a promo i don't use since i play BtS, 'cause i never research MS if not in my time games for he HoF. And when i research it, i got Gunships.

BLubmuz
Jul 04, 2011, 06:41 AM
So, AL is in! i upgraded a few rifles and a mace to Inf.
Started Elec.
Destroyed a transport, but i think it was empty. The destroyer can be considered dead.

50% success with the forts. I tried first the most important, no. then the other one, done, spy in Sirius.

Not made many moves, just took the undefended cape city and garrisoned.
Moved 1E the stack blocking the access to Comet. Lost the fortify bonus, but we can't let it there doing nothing.

The stack Ama have in Bode is too big to afford for now.
Drafted the possible.
Quat main army is still in their Capital. Let's see what they do.

Not a great situation.
But it's a personal challenge now, so don't wory i will do my best.

I chatted with 2m. yesterday night. He told me that we could have won any peaceful condition it we kept the ETTT. I did not asked if they would have just watched us win in that case. I doubt.
He said that we broken the NAP withdrawing from the ETT and i answered that we were just asking a non-brokering ETT and something in exchange. I told him that probably the last tech they gave to the ETT was Gunpowder.

After an initial deny, he admitted that the way they cancelled the NAP is not exactly honorable.

Sure many defections on this team have not helped. And many stupid people thinking to keep the ETTT indefinitely less. I asked to break it when we were on the path to Rifling. Doing so the game should have had another face. Harder, maybe, but not as it is now for us.

Trystero
Jul 04, 2011, 09:02 PM
This was my first multiplayer game. I think the real problem is that tech trading is really broken in multiplayer. It naturally leads to the types of alliances we had in this game. The game would have been much more interesting if tech trading were prohibited.

The other problem was that we attacked Quatronia before we were fully prepared for all the consequences. I think I said on numerous occasions that we should be prepared for a 3-vs-1 war if we attacked Quatronia without securing an alliance first.

That said, something had to happen with the ETTT. And I agree with you BLubmuz, that I highly doubt Amazon would simply sit back and let us get a Space victory. I am ready for this game to end either with us victorious or eliminated. Thanks for handling the fighting. Do your best and let's see what happens.

Watch out for espionage (tech stealing!). And garrison as many cities as you can with machine guns.

AlphaShard
Jul 04, 2011, 09:10 PM
I agree next time vote tech trading off.

I think that Amazon wouldn't have started a war over space victory they would have used espionage.

I think we all wanted to beef up defenses it just didn't happen.

BLubmuz
Jul 05, 2011, 02:48 AM
For now CDZ is doing nothing. They (he?) keep unaltered the relations, but they refused new ones and they don't communicate. They have Creative Constr. so i think they're shooting for culture.

I think Ama too is shooting for culture. In few turns we can see their research, but i can bet on it.

Nothing to do today, let's wait tomorrow morning.

AlphaShard
Jul 05, 2011, 04:57 AM
Can they get Culture win this late in the game?

BLubmuz
Jul 05, 2011, 05:56 AM
Can they get Culture win this late in the game?If they manage Sushi, yes. And they have enough religions o build the needed Cathedrals.

Creative Constructions is weaker than Sushi, especially in this map, but it's possible.

BLubmuz
Jul 07, 2011, 05:20 PM
No news.
We can save our EPs (and time) to destroy forts, ama brought 9 workers in the center, so they can rebuild them at wish. Obviuosly well protected.

Ama moved a bunch of galleons through the forts, in the canal S of bode. I suppose they're a bait, they can't be fully loaded. I think that all the Ama's Army, aside the units in the cities, is concentrated in the center.

Quat: their respectable fleet should be hidden in the fog W of their island or W of our newly conquered point city. In any case, i can see that all the units they have in their island when i invaded are still there. In this case also i doubt the transports are fully loaded, or even loaded.

Yesterday was lost due to a partial reload, so the game is shifted 1 day later.

Tomorrow night or saturday morning i plan to take the last former Mav's city on Comet. Unfortunately i misclicked a rifle, so he's now out of the already small stack in the center. It can hold, or at least can cause a lot of passive damage.

If no surprises, 1-2 turns after took the city i think to attack the center. We need to take some risk. Ama's army is impressive, but ours have superior units. Let's see how it can work.

I got a settler to refound Arcturus next turn.
Next turn the Globe will be completed in Rigel, so it can be back in business.

AlphaShard
Jul 09, 2011, 03:02 AM
New turn is up. Sommersword logged in for some reason after 2metra played there turn.

BLubmuz
Jul 09, 2011, 08:01 AM
Done.
I took Spot B, now named Orion at the cost of 1 Cav. Then an artillery reduced to dust the only defender Ama left (they surely killed the others, no ships around) and a cav completed the job.

Then i've sent a few units to reinforce the stack on the center and amassed our army in Orion (but relax, i've kept a good number of units in our cities). Next turn i plan to try to take the center. Like in chess, who controls the center, controls the game.

Resettled Arcturus, i left Amsterdam as name, started a granary.
Dike completed in Alcor, now it's a good city!

Completed the Globe in Rigel, now we can do anything we like there.

In any case, drafting is too costly in terms of happiness, thus i will change that civic ASAP, thus in 2 turns i will revert to Bureau. In addition drafting an infantry costs 2 pop and in the mid term we loose production.

So i plan to keep representation to counter the effects of drafting, then go back to US in the last turn of GAge.

I'm almost sure that CDZ is selling obsolete units to Ama. Last turn i've seen 2 xbows and a cat in Ama territory, now they are in the center city and they are Ama.

I moved the airship in the west cape city, to try to see where Quat's fleet is.

BLubmuz
Jul 12, 2011, 02:31 AM
No news in our half.
Next turn i will go out of nationhood and use slavery for 5 turns. If needed i will raise the culture.

I took a look right now and Qaut landed 16 rifles and 12 cannons near the Pyra city.
I could have bet the transports were almost empty. Now i see why the research of our "allies" was so pitiful.

They should have some kind of coordination with Ama, when they log they have 8 galleons (but protected by destroyers). I could have bet those were empty too, or almost, see the army they have in the center. Now i doubt.

Luck i managed to ferry a full transport in the island in my half. Our transport fleet is useless in the wrong side of the spoke. That's why i moved to the center: i can react without problems in the spokes, my problem are the islands.

In any case, i think to counter attack: no reason to wait to be destroyed. Before to decide i will see what Ama will do, obviously.

BLubmuz
Jul 12, 2011, 05:33 PM
Logged after 2m. Ama landed 23 mixed units near the former Indian Capital.
I have to choose and i choose to keep that one.
So, draft then civics change, whip like hell in that island. I target the Ama stack, i have enough siege to reduce it to dust. And a lot better than catapults.

Then i was caught by an inspiration: if i build 2 forts N of Mizar (2-3 turn, no less, unfortunately at thecost of a newly built cottage) i can safely move the transports from a fort (which acts like a city) to the island.

My tactic in the center worked. Ama moved all the troops in Nabaxica (the center city).
Next turn i can manage to destroy 2 forts and the roads. I will see how to move the troops, but i think i retreat.
There's a stack of 5 destroyers E of Andromeda (no more Anjennida, please).
I think we need to regain control of the seas, so i will whip a bunch of destroyers in all the cities. Definitely that nationhood draft won't work if you really need to quickly build an army.

After the 2 forts are built i can retake the Pyra city, then we can start thinking to a counter attack. If we're still alive.

In any case, with armies of that kind, i doubt our former allies would have watched us building our SpaceShip. Now i know for sure i was right asking to break the ETT before the prerequisites for Rifling. With that move we could have took the world.

Now our advantage is small, 14 a rifle vs 20 an infantry. It's +30% and they got numbers, which we never have had.
But 14 of a rifle vs 8 of mace and 6 of a LB? that was +80% and even +120%. No match.
With rifles, trebs and cavs we could have conquered the World. I'd like to know what the people wanting to stay in that absurd ETT was thinking.

Amazon: Char+Imp
Quatronia: Char+Fin
CDZ: Agg+Fin

Not exactly the traits for a peaceful game, no?

And our experienced diplomats, who signed a treaty which can be cancelled at any time after a certain date without any warning?
1 turn, 1 measly turn was all we needed. And when we decided to renew it? not even then.

Oh well, the milk is spilt now. Let's try to recover. But won't be easy.

AlphaShard
Jul 12, 2011, 06:05 PM
Well clearly the treaties weren't as clear as I thought they were. I agree I find it hard to believe they would sit there and let us build a Space Ship. You know at the very least they would be sabotaging our builds and building there own. That's not even talking about the nukes which I am sure are going to show up.

I think this would have been a very different game had we had Tech Trading off and all this blackmail wouldn't be possible. You weren't the only one Bulb that knew we were being milked for techs. I think Amazon beat us on the Diplo front so we just have to beat them some how on the war front.

What I want to know is why CDZ has not declared war on us.

BLubmuz
Jul 13, 2011, 03:37 AM
You weren't the only one Bulb that knew we were being milked for techs. I think Amazon beat us on the Diplo front so we just have to beat them some how on the war front.Thank you, but actually you, HUSch (unfortunately disappeared) and even Alltriia agreed that something was wrong with the ETT. I got just little experiance in Multi, but i know that the great majority finishes in a bloodbath.What I want to know is why CDZ has not declared war on us.And i'd like to know what they are doing to try to win. For what we can see (but they can be hiding it), they have a pitiful army, not much land and Creative Constr.
Culture? I doubt. Probably Socralynnek is just trying to survive 'til the end.

And not only they don't declared war, but they kept our trades (OB and resources). But they don't want to communicate.

Well i played the first session of our half, planning to finish in 3-4 hours.
I almost wiped the Ama stack near the former Indian Capital. Not enough units to finish the job. Bad luck at good odds with 2 Inf died to 2 cannons and a rifle died to a damaged rifle. Our cavalry did a good job in killing a rifle and 2 damaged cannons with a single attack.
In the center i captured 3 workers with a cav. I have to decide what to do. Attacking Nabaxica seems difficult and let us exposed in Comet.
We have also the option to attack Quat in their spoke, but i'm afraid i can't avoid Ama attacking the attackers :crazyeye:.
I need to think more. Some suggestion would be appreciated, but this demo game looks like a solo game.

I revolted to slavery, but this cost us +2:mad: for emancipation, so i will revolt again to it in 5 turns. Chosen Bureau too, but i need to see the real benefits now that research is not so important.

I'm building the forts, pity that idea arrived too late. I'm thinking to suicide some transport on destroyers. Usually you need 2 destroyers to take one so, if a transport can do enough damage, it's a big save of hammers.

I upgraded almost all our units. Only a few rifles and a frigate. No upgrade for warriors and archers.

Ama have a lot of money, so i think they are not researching. All our former allies have Bio. CDZ is goin for Flight and Quat for Communism.

AlphaShard
Jul 13, 2011, 07:44 AM
Well we have lost alot of players but we have more then Quat do and it even happened to Mavericks as well.

There's no point in lamenting the past, just take what we have now and deal with it.

Well one suggestion is to prepare for the air attacks. I know I can use them to crushing effect in single player games.

I think we need to focus on one team at a time. So I would rather take out more Amazon cities. Although taking Quat out or at least there home island would seriously cripple there teching.

I just don't know Bulb.

BLubmuz
Jul 13, 2011, 08:32 AM
Well we have lost alot of players but we have more then Quat do and it even happened to Mavericks as well.At least we're in 2 :)There's no point in lamenting the past, just take what we have now and deal with it.What i said, but to the benefit of lurkers... and for a personal need to share my thoughts.Well one suggestion is to prepare for the air attacks. I know I can use them to crushing effect in single player games.The one researching flight is CDZ, but Fighters are not so effective for range and power and they are far from having it.
For bombers they need Radio, thus Elec first. Not a short way. But there's always the chance they can be intercepted.I think we need to focus on one team at a time. So I would rather take out more Amazon cities. Although taking Quat out or at least there home island would seriously cripple there teching.

I just don't know Bulb.Blub, please :).
I think it's what i'm goin' to do.
The options are:
a) move to Nabaxica and try to raze it. I doubt we can hold there and have enough units to counter attack elsewhere.
b) keep a sizeable force in the center, maybe using one of their forts. Forts let pass only the tile owner with ships, but give the bonus to anyone sitting there. Then move roughly an half of the stack back to Comet, ready to counter attack anywhere we need.
I need to evaluate, but it's not sure that the safest choice is actually the safest or better one.

AlphaShard
Jul 13, 2011, 10:17 AM
Sorry I meant that I was trying to give suggestions and I just don't have much. I do think we will want to destroy center city.

BLubmuz
Jul 13, 2011, 10:30 AM
np, Alpha.
A decision is not easy, in any case, alea iacta est (Julius Caesar, passing the Rubycon).
I moved towards Nabaxica destroying a fort in the process. Let's see how Ama react and delay any decision to next turn.

BTW i keep udated this thread not only for you, but because i need to expose my thoughts, so maybe some creative one will arrive. Like the one of the forts.

Stupid, stupid me to not have thought it right after razed the Ama city there.

And i was the one asking to build the forts in the center. And to plant a city there. Even more stupid.

AlphaShard
Jul 13, 2011, 11:02 AM
Yeah it's good to keep this updated.

If we can get to bombers before they do, which is why they may be going for the Fighters, we can really put it to them.

Irgy
Jul 13, 2011, 03:21 PM
Now our advantage is small, 14 a rifle vs 20 an infantry. It's +30% and they got numbers, which we never have had.
But 14 of a rifle vs 8 of mace and 6 of a LB? that was +80% and even +120%. No match.
With rifles, trebs and cavs we could have conquered the World. I'd like to know what the people wanting to stay in that absurd ETT was thinking.

Infantry has +25% against gunpowder, making it 25 vs 14 (give or take the effect of other bonuses). Not substantially different from 14 vs 8. In any case though, we stuck with the ETTT so as to avoid being in the situation we're now in. If you can pull through a win from here then credit to you, but the plan was to avoid getting dogpiled not delay it. Had I not left the diplomatic front for RL reasons, I'm quite confident we wouldn't be in the diplomatic mess we're now in.

Of course Amazon weren't going to let us go peacefully to space, but if we hadn't treated them like garbage and ignored ourselves the treaty we wanted them to follow they'd have stuck around until it was just the two of us.

And our experienced diplomats, who signed a treaty which can be cancelled at any time after a certain date without any warning?
1 turn, 1 measly turn was all we needed. And when we decided to renew it? not even then.

I don't know who you're referring to as "experienced", certainly not me.

The treaty ended at 1500AD. This rubbish about it still "existing" but being able to be cancelled at any time with no notice was Amazon's invention, to all intents and purposes though it ended at 1500AD. At that point it should either have been extended or considered to no longer apply. You were all involved in the dicussion about that at the time we signed it.

I clearly should have appreciated the fact that nobody except me understood the diplomatic situation and so when I became inactive that knowledge was lost to the team completely. It was all there in text in the forums, but I honestly do conceed the point that if you're busy actually playing the turns you don't have time to wade through all the legal mumbo-jumbo that Amazon spammed out.

Maybe on some level I wasn't that upset that diplomacy went to s@#$ as soon as I left, so, well, sorry about that.


In any case though, forget my whining and negativity, and keep up the good work you're doing in game. It's extremely good that someone at least is keeping the team running, and you're doing a good job from what I can tell. As you tell I'm still following at least, even if all I have time to do is complain rather than help.

BLubmuz
Jul 14, 2011, 04:30 AM
I quote below a part of your post which deserves a direct answer.

The reason to keep the ETT to avoid to be dogpiled was your battlehorse on this matter.

My reason to leave the ETT right after researched RP (and not trading it) and to 3 turns from rifles was the same: avoid to be dogpiled. No one could have dare to declare on us if we have rifles and cavs and they don't. Thus we could have took what we wanted, break the NAP with Ama (or better, let them break it since we ceased to give techs for free). But, numbers or not our clearly superior military advantage could have gave us the victory.

Infantry has +25% against gunpowder, making it 25 vs 14 (give or take the effect of other bonuses). Not substantially different from 14 vs 8. In any case though, we stuck with the ETTT so as to avoid being in the situation we're now in. If you can pull through a win from here then credit to you, but the plan was to avoid getting dogpiled not delay it. Had I not left the diplomatic front for RL reasons, I'm quite confident we wouldn't be in the diplomatic mess we're now in.Well, maybe. But any unit can be upgrade to rifle, so LB and XB were pretty useless in the field. And for LB there's Cavalry, immune to first strikes. And they can't counter attack with archery units. Musketmen? ridiculous.

If at least you could have given some suggestions on what to do diplomatically after 1500 AD it would have been enough. We asked for help.

Speaking of me, i was sure the NAP needed 1 turn to be cancelled, not like it was.
In any case there were no in game constraints, so the Admins can't do nothing on the matter. Other stupid thing.

AlphaShard
Jul 14, 2011, 12:35 PM
Well again it will do little good to cry over the past, I will suggest getting to the Bombers ASAP, even if they are getting Fighters soon, they will have those annoying Blimps though. I think with Bombers we can get victory, especially if CDZ just keeps to the side lines.

BLubmuz
Jul 14, 2011, 03:30 PM
The blimps are just a little annoyance.
What is really annoying is that Ama stolen Artillery from us. I think we're toasted.

There's a stack of 13 Arties near Nabaxica. I think a strategic retreat is in order.

As foreseen Quat took the Pyra city and kept there 3 rifles.
Moved the rest of the stack to Acrux. But i got a transport loaded in Comet, and not so badly damaged units in Acrux. I think i'll attack immediately.

Tomorrow.

BLubmuz
Jul 15, 2011, 05:41 AM
Not much to say this turn.
I'm proceeding with construction of the forts in Comet.
Another guy (not cav scout) from Quat logged and moved a bunch of ships to block the port access, so i was forced to land the reinforcements on the tile NE of the city.

I attacked the attackers, with good success, considering that many of our troops are injured. Lost only an arty. I'm afraid they will load the survivors in their ships, but i can't do nothing different.
If they don't (like Ama did), they can say goodbye to all their pitiful stack. And to our nice Pyra city, which i plan to retake in 1-2 turns.

The 5 destroyers from Ama's core moved to the west of Andromeda and are blocking our North cape city. No transports, but i need a lot of ships to attack them.

In the center i retreated and i plan to destroy all the forts and roads there before thinking to attack, if ever.

BLubmuz
Jul 16, 2011, 05:01 PM
I logged to look at the situation after Ama and Quat half.
Ama managed to steal AL too. At this point i'd like to know what is the advantage in keep an high research if anyone with enough EPs can steal anything. In any case Ama strted spend EPs on us long before they broke the NAP, otherwise it won't be possible to steal 2 expensive techs.

We caught a spy last turn, but they probably have an army of spies and a lot of EP buildings. And we built not even a CH in any city.

Ama completely wiped out stack in the Center.
2MG, 13 Inf, 3 Cavs, 8 arties = 26 units gone. to 11 of theirs. They have many almost dead units, but totally unreachable, so they can heal.

As foreseen, also Quat evacuated their stack. Now there's a stack of destroyers, transports and galleons both Ama and Quat right outside the former Indian Capital. Obviously with all their injured units.

1 destroyer and a galleon of Ama are stacked outside the Pyra city and a destroyer is escorting 2 transports of Quat 2 tiles away. I presume the galleon and the transports are empty, but next turn i'll try to wipe at least the Ama stack.

I don't know what to do. We don't have enough production to rebuild an army at the speed we need and now that our technical advantage is gone to spies, even if Ama need a lot of gold to upgrade i think we're toasted.

This, and first of all the fact that i'm substantially alone let me think to give up.

This game was ruined by that protracted ETT. If we kept it and let the others milk us for techs, we would have faced Nukes and tanks or the distruction of our SS parts with spies. Or a mix of both. So, i don't regret to gave to Ama the "casus belli".

As i foreseen months ago, a so protracted ETT has demonstrated to have been our ruin.December 1st, 2010 and that post is referring to something i said "weeks ago", so probably in OctoberIt's what i said weeks ago.
I know i lacked participation in the last weeks, but sincerely, i can't accept to stay in the ETTT any longer. We need to find a way to go out, mantaining only Amazon as ally. Until there will arrive the point where only one will remain. (...)Found another post of mine, September 20th, 2010(...) I agree with our plan to settle like mad, improve the land and keep a poor military.
The problem is after Astro.
This is why i raised the problem of our "allies". Since only Amazon is a true ally and the remaining 2 are just trading partners, it would be easy for them send a galleon to take our almost undefended cities.
So, i think we have to break the ETTA before being forced to give them Astro. Possibly having some other tech before then, since they benefitted far more than us from the tech trades. But this is matter i'll discuss in the Amazon Diplo thread.

This can be true, but what is done is done. We have a NAP with them.

We spent too much gold in upgrades and hurries and we not even built many basics buildings and not enough units. Researching MS was a total waste.

I can't recover a game others have compromised. I just precipitated a situation. At least we saved months of useless play.

Now, i'll play until i'm really tired, just to try to wipe some units here and there and maybe take a city or two. Then i will pass it to the AI. At least an AI does not sign absurd treaties.

AlphaShard
Jul 16, 2011, 08:17 PM
Yeah just give it to AI I don't want to watch us get conquered either.

BLubmuz
Jul 17, 2011, 07:10 AM
In any case i'll keep this thread updated.
Took for the Nth time an abandoned Pyra city.

The forts won't work. I did not tested, but probably they need to be on the coast to work as a channel, like they do in the Center.
Speaking of Center, Nabaxica expnded to its 4th ring, covering the tiles once covered by us, so our small stack of defenders was retreated 1E, to try to move to Orion.

I can count over 30 Rifles and MGs and over 12 arties in the center, plus many obsolete units.
I think that also Andromeda is in danger.
Next turn i will build a fort in the N coast of Comet, to ferry units from Bode or viceversa. I need also a transport, which i plan to build next turn.

I loaded a transport with 4 units from former India, to ferry them on Comet next turn, provided the port is free.

I also wiped the stack of 5 destroyers at the cost of 2, but actually 3 plus a transport, which were there due to a misclick last turn. I just discovered my good but old mouse (MX1000) is broken. I already ordered a new one, but some misclick here and there can't be recovered.

In any case, Ama has, despite the heavy (but not so much, they're lucky, too) losses an army like we never have, even counting our lost units.
Their strategy is clear now: a powerful army, a lot of espionage, poor research and a good diplo.
Once Quat and CDZ will realize they're winning, they will become monsters. But probably they have some sort of friendship, so they prefere Ama to us.

I feel used :mad:. Actually our diplomats at the time were, but i can't avoid that feeling, being part of the team.

I never used espionage to that extent, usually because in my solo games, played mostly on Monarch/Emperor, i'm so superior in tech compared to my AI opponents that i need only defensive EPs.
But i uderestimated what a human can do, mainly after Constitution (Jail) and Democracy (SB) if he's backwards in techs. Definitely i have to learn to play against humans.
But probably i learnt enough with this game, so my target when i subscribed is achieved.

AlphaShard
Jul 17, 2011, 08:54 AM
I had a feeling the would just steal techs even had we left ettt when you wanted to. They did espionage specific since the beginning with Great Wall. Our only chance probably was Space.

BLubmuz
Jul 17, 2011, 09:15 AM
I had a feeling the would just steal techs even had we left ettt when you wanted to. They did espionage specific since the beginning with Great Wall. Our only chance probably was Space.Ama won't need to steal techs if we kept the NAP and the ETT only with them. They could have had them for free. But being the ETT limited to the two of us, would gave us the right to ask them to contribute, if not with techs with gold (to keep the research high) or units, to let us build structures and to be safe from 3rd party attacks. Obviusly at a given point the fight would have been between the 2 of us, but things could be quite different.

A tactic can be to build many different units to 1 turn to completion (not so difficult) then have them built 1/turn, saving maintenance costs and giving them a false impression we were weak.

Too late to complain. I must add that if LP, HUSch, Trystero and Irgy, won't have left due to RL problems this game could have been different. For what i've seen LP agreed with most of my points on the ETT, but he was just a meteor after the beginning. I continue to not see Irgy's points, mainly when he was really active here.

Not mentioning the dozens of people disappeared after few turns. Sure this is the last time i spend my energies in such a long game. 15 months is too much, with at least 3 more to go. And after 2 months of preparation. Many people just posted a few, then not even bothered to advice they left.

AlphaShard
Jul 17, 2011, 09:35 AM
Civ 5 was one reason some left.

Some I think grew bored.

Funny enough I think I would like to try this out again.

BLubmuz
Jul 19, 2011, 08:58 AM
I simply tought that if no one but me and Alpha is actively participating in the discussion, no one is interested by this game, for time reasons or else.

Alpha himself said he does not want to see more cities burned or conquered. I say i'll play until i can resist with decent odds, then when the army will be almost nothing...

We have no techs to give, after they stolen us AL and Arty. On the contrary, they have Bio which we lack.

BLubmuz
Jul 19, 2011, 12:52 PM
Played my half. Not much to do, if not move some units here and there.
The target is to have a sizeable force in any area. We can have only our home island lightly defended.

Still, with the army Ama have in the Center, if they use it all at once on a target, they can't loose. And they can be safe fron counter attacks, since we need no less than 3 turns to arrive to Nabaxica, so they can go back.

They have some 26 rifles, soon infantry, some 15 arties and 7-8 MGs only in the 2 visible Center tiles.

Their naval stacks are out of reach. We need at least twice the destroyers we have.

Logged a 2nd time, to move some more unit.
Set Esp to 20%, i'm curious to see Ama's graphs.

CDZ have a very low power, probably not much more than a unit per city. I'm almost sure they sold or gave obsolete units to Ama.
I don't understand what they're doing. PAs are not enabled (i logged again to verify), so they can't form one with Ama and win the game together.

Something fishy is happening between them. Do you think is worth to inform the Admins and ask them to investigate?
I suspect someone in Ama is playing CDZ turns using the nick socralynneck. I verified also socralynneck's activity on the forums and when i'm editing this his last activity was in july 4th, 15 days ago.

AlphaShard
Jul 19, 2011, 07:38 PM
I figured CDZ was just being a tech mule for the other two.

BLubmuz
Jul 20, 2011, 04:12 AM
I asked LP an advice with 2 PM (just because i thought to the 2nd problem right after sent the first)Hi LP,
i need your advice on the following:
I suspect CDZ is no more a true active team and its turns are played by someone from Amazon.

I also am sure that CDZ gave units to Amazon. I clearly seen 2 Xbowz and a cat in Ama's territory (probably out of moves) and next turn they were in the nearest Ama's city and with the Ama's flag.
Then i remember that with a spy i've seen 3 or 4 Ama units in their last city on Comet (the one they took from Mavs) next turn the defenders were 6. No ships in sight. We have OB with CDZ, so a CDZ unit can arrive in that city from Ama's territory, be gifted and upgraded.
I can add that CDZ does not have an army so they are basically Amazon's vassals.

For more, please readthis post.

I think this violates at least section 3 of the rules. I also suspect that their declaration of war violates section 5.4.
But if CDZ is actually played by Ama the violation can be even serious.
Sorry LP,
but this comes in my mind just now.
Amazon took Merlot's island. I'm absolutely sure CDZ were not actively involved in that fight.
To avoid any discussion on that matter, tha in-game log reports that Amazon took all Merlot's cities between 1470 and 1505 AD
But now CDZ have 2 cities in that island.
I noticed that when i gave them a tech (to honor that damn ETT) and asked for their WM. At the moment i did not thought nothing, but now i carefully read the rules.

Now i paused the game, i think there's enough matter for a legal war.

Lord Parkin
Jul 20, 2011, 04:18 AM
It's possible that someone from CDZ is playing the turns without bothering to log into the forum. It's also possible that someone from Amazon is impersonating someone from CDZ, but I somehow doubt it. What would they have to gain anyway - isn't everyone against us regardless?

Regarding the alleged city gifts from Amazon to CDZ, I'm not sure of the context. I'm also not sure on how strict the rules on city gifting are for this game. Might be worth checking up with the admins if you're concerned about it though. :)

BLubmuz
Jul 20, 2011, 04:22 AM
LP, CDZ is neutral.
They have OB and a couple resource deals with us.
They don't want talk (via PM or email) now, they don't accept in game proposals, but they keep the trades we have.

In any case, they're gifting units.

Irgy
Jul 20, 2011, 05:21 AM
CDZ are neutral in the sense of not having declared war on us and not talking to us, but it would hardly surprise me if they are co-operating with Amazon and/or Quatronia. They may not still be playing to win. I'd expect there's one turn player running the show and everyone else has given up, it's what's happened to all the other teams short of Amazon.

There's no rules against unit gifting in any case.

BLubmuz
Jul 20, 2011, 05:57 AM
OK, so resuming:
CDZ can gift (or sell, or else) units to anyone.
But i doubt an Amazon team member can play their turns without informing the Admins.
For sure any city gift must be communicated to the Admins and i haven't seen nothing about it.
Then i'm almost sure Amazon moved before to declare the galleon they used to attack our city right after declared. I remember that galleon was 1 or 2 E+1S of the first city they razed and i did not understood why it was there (we were at peace). I'm also sure that the fort they used to move their naval units was not there before the war.

I'm not sure how to read this point of the rules, or if it applies to that situation: 5.4 -- Declaring war

For the purpose of movement, declaring war will count as movement. Once war has been declared, the party declaring war has to finish moving all of their units and end their turn before half of the remaining turn time has elapsed since the declaration of war, or within half an hour, whichever is longer

In cases where a war declaration occurs and the side declared upon (the declared) still has units to move, the declared may still move these units, and this counts as a move for the purpose of which party gets phase 2 in all subsequent turns.

ALL DECLARATIONS OF WAR, AND ENDED TURNS, SHOULD BE DOCUMENTED via screenshot Also, please send an email stating you have declared war. This isn't a rule, it won't be enforced, but as said below it is good manners.I don't konw if it's too late now or if we can have a chance. This rule doesn't seem perfectly clear to me.

I copied this one in the Admins thread to hear from them.

BLubmuz
Jul 21, 2011, 10:49 AM
What a satisfaction!
Sunk 5 Ama destroyers and 2 galleons, losing only 1. Now our destroyer is blocking the surviving galleons (loaded with what survived of Ama's SOD) from moving to the center and i can't see ships around.
Ho can it be blocking? thanks to a new system of 3 forts, which should (not tested yet, not enough moves) let our ships move from Bode to Orion.

Finally i managed to see all the graphs. For what is worth, we're still first in any section, but espionage with Ama in orbit.

We're recovering, but we still have too many weak points. A counter attack is out of reach for now. All we can do is prepare many good stacks and be ready to move when needed.

I'm thinking to build the IW in Capital or in Canopus, i think we need it.
After the Globe i built the HE in Rigel. It's on the front line and one of our best productive city. It was a big mistake build the IW in the same city as the HE. They don't multiply the benefits, just sum them.

Radio begins to be in sight and for sure we can gain the circum bonus. 1 move can make the difference. And subs loaded with missiles too.

BLubmuz
Jul 22, 2011, 03:03 PM
To let it know to anyone is lurking, any comment will be appreciated.
Subscribe to a Demo Game and find yourself playing a solo game is not so nice.

If not for the backstab by Amazon, which made this game a personal challenge, i'd quit.

AlphaShard
Jul 22, 2011, 03:24 PM
Well I would suggest upping Espionage defenses. I thought you had quit Blub, anyways get some more spies out and Sec Bearu's will help stop techs from being stolen. Also putting all EP against Amazon as well.

BLubmuz
Jul 22, 2011, 06:14 PM
No, as i said, i continue.
I already put all our EPs on Ama, but they have a ton. If they put spies in small cities, they can do whatever they want. Obviously EP buildings, jails first, will be the priority once we have good chances on the military front.

AlphaShard
Jul 22, 2011, 06:55 PM
Good to know your still here then, I am as well. Irgy posted too even just to give advice is better then nothing.

Can't wait for us to get Radio then, were going to need to gain some sort of edge and I hope the bombers can do it.

DaveShack
Jul 23, 2011, 08:53 AM
I pop in once in a while but am not strong enough a player to feel qualified to offer any advice. We're well past the point where LP wiped me off the map in almost every MP game I've ever played. ;) And most of the rest were abandoned by other people.

Trystero
Jul 23, 2011, 12:14 PM
I haven't been involved with turnplaying in so long, and have so little MP experience, I don't really know how much useful advice I can offer at this point. I'm afraid I won't be much help in the near future since RL stuff is keeping me really busy at the moment.

I agree with Irgy's earlier point that it is mostly like team participation has dropped off for everybody except Amazon, and that's why CDZ isn't actively participating.

BLubmuz
Jul 26, 2011, 03:17 AM
Not exactly a turn report. Please take a look in the public thread, in case you missed my latest posts. I think it's game over.
BTW if it is, for what is worth, we have won. We are first in score.

BLubmuz
Jul 28, 2011, 03:01 AM
The admins are just ignoring us.
I logged to revolt to better civics and gave it to AI.

Game over

AlphaShard
Aug 05, 2011, 11:56 AM
For any of those still following, I will be doing a peace treaty with Amazon. I am trying to fight to keep Rigel on Ajenda, I will be giving all of Comet to Quat, it's very under developed and not as good in production as Bode is. I managed to keep Maverick island.

I will be attempting the Space race, I'm sure Quat will go for Culture win like I said AGES ago. So if anyone is still reading this thread please feel free to chime in. Amazon wants all of Ajenda and I want to at least keep Rigel. They did concede to some of my demands so they are willing to listen.

Would Defensive pacts make any difference?

BLubmuz
Aug 05, 2011, 06:46 PM
I'm still following.
I can't understand why you're giving away half our cities for peace. Are we so desperate?

About Space: It's the only VC we can aim for, but i doubt we can be safe from sabotages, nukes or tech stealing.

Rigel is our best city after Sirius, but totally surrounded it won't be easy to keep it.

Before to give to AI i revolted to Emancipation and US. I recommend you do so ASAP.

I will try to log using your name. I'd like to try to helpas much as i can, since you decided to change your mind and continue. Without you approval in PM i'd never gave to AI. Despite the absurd conduct of the Admins.

Defensive pacts? Never used in multi. Don't know.

Have you seen this? Caledorn- how would you like to take over the turns for Q permanently? I don't think I will be able to come back to the game at this point.Raise the hell in the public thread. If the Admins will accept, Ama will control 2 civs.

At this point or cavscout give to the AI, or he find anyone not involved in the 4 surviving teams, or anything. I hope that if the Admins will concede this you will definitively abandon this game.

AlphaShard
Aug 05, 2011, 07:55 PM
The Comet cities aren't as powerful as the Bode cities.

Why don't you offer to control Quat then?

What does it matter anyways who controls Quat? In the Peaceful VC's you can't gift Spaceship parts, hammers or Culture. There is no PA, and were supposed to be trading all our techs to each other. The only thing that Quat could do is hand over gold.

I told everyone that the Amazon leader was playing a role and I don't think anyone wanted to believe me. So now Mr Cop is giving us a choice, if we want peace these are the terms. They have lowered there demands twice now. I'll have to post the messages they sent the first one was ridiculous.

Also please don't log in under my name. If you really want to log in use your own.

BLubmuz
Aug 06, 2011, 02:24 AM
^^^

True, Comet cities are less powerful than Bode ones, probably with the exception of Mizar.

But if you give them away we lose our source of oil there and we keep only one. Se lose also some health and happy resource. And you need many cities for Space.

I also built the FP there.

I think we have enough units to fight on the defensive if needed.

I will look for another player nick to use to log. Surely i can't use mine.

About Quat being in the hands of Caledorn or another Ama member... just imagine.

You need to raise the hell on that. But if i can't convice you, i will just disappear definitively. I know many tricks to avoid sabotages on the SS parts, but you need no less than 12 cities, all productive, to succeed.

AlphaShard
Aug 06, 2011, 07:31 AM
We'll have 14 cities most of them good production, once I re-settle them all.

You do realize the Admins can read this thread and know that your doing that right?

BLubmuz
Aug 06, 2011, 06:37 PM
We'll have 14 cities most of them good production, once I re-settle them all.

You do realize the Admins can read this thread and know that your doing that right?It's not for the Admins, it's for the other teams.
I'm still in this team, right?
It's the only way i can help you. BTW, Space is my favourite VC and i own many records in the HoF.

But i will log only to look, will do nothing.

AlphaShard
Sep 10, 2011, 11:19 AM
I've been building Factory+Coal Plant in every city, plus any health buildings to keep cities growing. I've been re-building the replaced cities, I put a new city on Maverick island to take advantage of some unused mines there.

1889
Sep 10, 2011, 11:51 AM
I thought this game was over.

AlphaShard
Sep 10, 2011, 12:04 PM
I thought this game was over.

You thought wrong.

AlphaShard
Oct 18, 2011, 10:05 AM
Well after attaining Radio, building some subs I have discovered that this world is Flat, there will be no circumnavigation. Still looking for the barb city with GLH though, just for shits and giggles. Building Apollo Program as well.

AlphaShard
Nov 16, 2011, 06:30 AM
I got 2 SS thrusters done, 3 more to go, should be finished next turn. The Docking port is taking 6 more turns.

ESIT: Oh yeah forgot to add that I found the Barb city that has the GLH, it has riflemen and got to pop 4 and even a little caravel there as well.

1889
Nov 16, 2011, 08:54 AM
Way to go! Are we winning?

AlphaShard
Nov 24, 2011, 03:04 PM
Well all thrusters are done, still working on Docking bay and the Stasis chamber. So far I haven't seen any Space parts built by anyone else.

BLubmuz
Nov 30, 2011, 10:06 AM
Well all thrusters are done, still working on Docking bay and the Stasis chamber. So far I haven't seen any Space parts built by anyone else.I keep watching the progresses. Expect something bad (spies or else). Or a massive stack to destroy the Capital.

Trystero
Dec 08, 2011, 11:01 PM
Hi AlphaShard - I haven't logged in to see your progress, but I'm glad to see you are keeping at it. Best of luck!

AlphaShard
Dec 20, 2011, 10:19 AM
Well they are massing forces up along our former coast line. So they may end up attacking afterall. Still ahead on production, got all Cases, Thrusters, Life support and stasis chamber done. Just two more techs needed for Engines and Docking port I think.

Eitherway we will get an official win on this.

BLubmuz
Dec 20, 2011, 06:07 PM
Well they are massing forces up along our former coast line. So they may end up attacking afterall. Still ahead on production, got all Cases, Thrusters, Life support and stasis chamber done. Just two more techs needed for Engines and Docking port I think.

Eitherway we will get an official win on this.Set up good defenses, mainly in Capital.

You can probably do nothing for spies sabotaging the SS parts, but if you move the capital after the SS is launched in former "Indian" lands you can make their life harder.

keep some (many) air units ready.

AlphaShard
Dec 21, 2011, 04:57 AM
Good idea Bulb, and we have a GE sitting on our other island as well.

AlphaShard
Jan 24, 2012, 05:50 PM
Well there majorly ahead now in building space ship parts in thanks I am sure to the Corporations they have. Well it was fun game I guess.

1889
Jan 24, 2012, 09:47 PM
Perhaps we can stow away and create a mutiny in route. Admins, can I get a rulling on that?