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AlphaShard
Apr 29, 2010, 07:41 PM
I still think we can tech AH in time for when were about to leave the Island.

caveman1917
Apr 29, 2010, 07:49 PM
I still think we can tech AH in time for when were about to leave the Island.

Yes but we'll need to see around what point in our tech-line that occurs, so we can establish our 'set' of techs until the deadline. Then we can more easily consider the optimal order of researching them.

azzaman333
Apr 29, 2010, 09:42 PM
I still think we can tech AH in time for when were about to leave the Island.

We can tech a lot of things in that time. Doesn't mean it's a good idea.

DaveShack
Apr 29, 2010, 11:24 PM
AH is not a required tech, is it? Meaning you can go all the way up the tech tree without ever getting it.

The early game is all about ruthless efficiency. Rule 1: Never research or build anything you don't need. Rule 2: Make exceptions to rule 1 as circumstances warrant. In the case of AH, you make an exception if you have pasture resources, don't have copper, or have a neighbor with axes. Right now the only one that might trigger an exception that would compel us to research AH would be if we don't have copper.

champinoman
Apr 30, 2010, 12:06 AM
I just redid the test to directly compare the 2 scenarios and got a result slightly different than I remember.

The Library is actually completed 3 turns earlier when skipping AH instead of the 2 I mentioned earlier.

In terms of beakers generated you can see in the save files below that by teching AH we generate a few extra beakers by turn 42 but its only a very few. However, skipping AH (although generating less beakers) is 140 beakers further into researching Mathematics (placeholder).

The big question or not is whether or not we have Copper. We'll find out very shortly.

In both examples the road to the South-West Mine can be completed in time for the pop5 expansion. However is probably not needed asap because the Warrior can head to the capital once the Settler is acting as its own spawn bust before it settles the 2nd city.

On a side note. It is extremely important in a few turns that when we build on the 2nd fish that we work both fish tiles for that 1 turn instead of the default 1 fish 1 gold. This we pop us to pop 3 1 turn quicker and subsequently get us to pop4 on the exact turn we start our settler. If we forget this then we have to waste a turn before building the settler to get to pop4.

azzaman333
Apr 30, 2010, 02:21 AM
My gut feelings still says AH > Writing > Sailing > Mysticism > Polytheism/Meditation > Priesthood > Monarchy is our best path at this time.

AlphaShard
Apr 30, 2010, 08:08 AM
New turn!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=251106&stc=1&d=1272632651

We've also had some changes in Demographics.

Not much to decide on until 3040.

GoSkins
Apr 30, 2010, 08:38 AM
I'm a bit lost here. Can someone fill me in? How does the tech prerequisite bonus work? I've never noticed any bonuses. I'm just curious how I could have overlooked that kind of thing for like 5 years.

champinoman
Apr 30, 2010, 08:49 AM
I'm a bit lost here. Can someone fill me in? How does the tech prerequisite bonus work? I've never noticed any bonuses. I'm just curious how I could have overlooked that kind of thing for like 5 years.

Essentially for every prereq you have for a tech (only the ones linked by arrows) you get an additional 20% beakers. So the discussion is regarding when we should tech writing. We will have Pottery already but getting AH adds an additional pre-req meaning that we get bonus beakers. To take it further, if we had Priesthood as well there would be another bonus 20%.

There is also a bonus attached to how many other known civs in the game have the tech. But thats something for us to worry about later as we have not met anyone yet.

EDIT: And the reason you overlooked it is because it never says anything anywhere about it unless you take note of tech progress in 2 consecutive turns. I only noticed it after many people mentioning it in the BOTMs

AlphaShard
Apr 30, 2010, 01:27 PM
Do Beakers overflow into the next Tech? I was seeing that we have more then enough beakers, so will the extra beakers go to the next Tech?

I've been thinking do you wonder if it's possible that the Map Maker may have created more Barb cities out there on the map? I mean if he did one just to build the GL in it what else could be waiting in store for us?

Trystero
Apr 30, 2010, 03:00 PM
Do Beakers overflow into the next Tech? I was seeing that we have more then enough beakers, so will the extra beakers go to the next Tech?


No, extra beakers do not carry over to the next tech. The easiest way to demonstrate this is using a GP to bulb a tech you've already started researching. whether 1 or 10 turns from finishing the tech, the next tech starts at zero beakers.

Edit: Sorry - I was wrong about overflow. See here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146163).

Re: the AH debate. Don't we have until after Pottery to decide whether to pursue AH before Writing? That might give more time for debate and give us more info on the map if we can get an exploring WB out.

AlphaShard
Apr 30, 2010, 03:12 PM
If that is the case maybe it would be ok to lower the slider and earn some gold then?

Trystero
Apr 30, 2010, 03:19 PM
Hmm... Perhaps. That seems sensible to me, but I'm not the best person ask about micro. I know there are advantages to binary research (running either 0 or 100% on the slider), but I'm not certain under what conditions that approach is optimal.

Trystero
Apr 30, 2010, 03:28 PM
OK - I did some researching in the archive. I might be wrong about beaker overflow. It might apply to the next tech by reducing the cost rather than showing up as beakers already applied. I will have to look into this some more.

Edit: Yes, I was definitely wrong. AlphaShard: I think this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=146163) answers your question. Apparently, I need to read it, as well. :blush:

Lord Parkin
Apr 30, 2010, 06:44 PM
Huh? Overflow exists in Civ4. :lol:

Don't lower the science slider, our beakers will overflow to the next tech. Great Person bulbs are a special case, not the norm.

That's a good link, thanks Trystero. :) Although I think the application of bonuses on overflow from one tech to the next has been changed since that article was written.

AlphaShard
Apr 30, 2010, 06:48 PM
I just thought I read something about the latest patch removing overflow, I guess they meant in regards to the GP Bulbing.

Lord Parkin
Apr 30, 2010, 07:10 PM
It removed the gold you got from a large hammer overflow on anything apart from wonders. Maybe that's what you were thinking of. The reasoning was that it could be abused particularly by Protective leaders with Stone (e.g. whipping/chopping a Wall could create several hundred bonus gold instantly).

I'm sure Firaxis would never consider removing any of the other overflow things which they put in place originally though. The idea of that was to create less need for micromanagement (e.g. adjusting the slider every other turn). What would be the point in removing that and forcing more micromanagement? :lol:

AlphaShard
Apr 30, 2010, 07:32 PM
It wasn't the Hammers/Gold, it was Beakers there was a thread on this in the CiV General Discussion area.

Lord Parkin
Apr 30, 2010, 07:43 PM
It might have been the removal of the (e.g.) 1.6x bonus if you finish Writing and then start a tech with no prereqs on the next turn. But in general, beaker overflow definitely exists. Just start a game and see. ;)

dima42
May 01, 2010, 08:58 PM
I'm still strongly in the no-AH camp. How are we possibly going to need it before we can trade for it with Alphabet?

No AH --> sooner techs --> sooner Alphabet -->trading for AH.

The only possibility AH might be worthwhile is if there is a chance we will not be able to trade for AH by when we need it. This seems borderline impossible.

DaveShack
May 01, 2010, 09:00 PM
Yeah, not having overflow in Civ3 spawned a cottage industry of utilities that could remind you to micromanage. Enabling overflow was one of the major functional changes in Civ4.

Trystero
May 02, 2010, 03:24 AM
Yeah, not having overflow in Civ3 spawned a cottage industry of utilities that could remind you to micromanage. Enabling overflow was one of the major functional changes in Civ4.

That's actually why I checked the strategy articles right after posting. :blush: I never played Civ prior to 4, but it almost immediately occurred to me that not have overflow would result in a ton of related micromanagement articles. :) Ah well, one reason I signed up: to learn new things (and expose my ignorance ;))

We've played another turn. I'll let AlphaShard write it up, since I think he played it. We are 1 turn from finishing BW and the 2nd WB. Returning to my earlier question, can we research Pottery next while we resolve the AH issue? I'll admit in light of the new analysis by champinoman that the beaker savings by teching AH before Writing is reduced, I'm now leaning toward delaying it at least until we get to the other landmass, where we might need it to use resources. (Previously, the reduction in the cost to Writing was it's major selling point to me). Regardless of whether we self-research it or trade for it, I think the immediate issue is whether it has to be done before Writing, or whether those beakers were better used elsewhere. If the beaker savings is minimal, I'm less sold on it's immediate advantage.

azzaman333
May 02, 2010, 04:04 AM
I'm still strongly in the no-AH camp. How are we possibly going to need it before we can trade for it with Alphabet?

No AH --> sooner techs --> sooner Alphabet -->trading for AH.

The only possibility AH might be worthwhile is if there is a chance we will not be able to trade for AH by when we need it. This seems borderline impossible.

We need to know where the horses are.

And we have no idea how far away the other teams are, and whether they'll even want to trade with us. It's a massive risk not teching AH, as far as I'm concerned.

BLubmuz
May 02, 2010, 08:02 AM
We need to know where the horses are.

And we have no idea how far away the other teams are, and whether they'll even want to trade with us. It's a massive risk not teching AH, as far as I'm concerned.I agree.
If you add that it also speeds up writing, i say let's go for it. And probably even before pottery, since our workers are busy and probably they can't start building cottages by the time pottery is in.

AlphaShard
May 02, 2010, 08:39 AM
I think Azzaman that there will be tech trading if we have it on, there is no gaurentee which team will trade but I am sure someone will. As for AH I'm waiting to see if we have copper or not.

azzaman333
May 02, 2010, 08:58 AM
I think Azzaman that there will be tech trading if we have it on, there is no gaurentee which team will trade but I am sure someone will. As for AH I'm waiting to see if we have copper or not.

Depends when we meet other teams, and who they may have already met.

We have no idea how big the map is, so it could be 5 turns of exploration, 10 turns, 20 or 50 before we find anyone.

If we don't research AH before Writing, it wastes beakers. Horses are a key strategic resource. We will need pastures. And there aren't any techs other than Writing and Sailing which we have a real need for at the moment.

hell_hound
May 02, 2010, 09:34 AM
I agree with azzaman AH is a fairly critical tech and ideally we want it sooner rather than later...

pindicator
May 02, 2010, 05:01 PM
Just re-stating my preference for AH and then I'll stop :deadhorse: . Unless the map makers are being cruel to amazon's team, there are going to be pastures in this game. Future cities are going to need them, and knowing where the horses are as we explore will be a big strategic advantage. I think it's worth delaying writing 2 or 3 turns rather than the big risk that 1) we'll meet another team in the near future; 2) they will actually want to trade us that tech.

I don't think we need to put it ahead of Pottery, but I would like to see it before writing.

I also am not sure and I don't think a lot of other people are sure what our tech plans are after Writing & Sailing. I've heard Alphabet, Math, and I'm starting to see some people showing that they'd like us to bee-line Monarchy next. Thoughts?

Irgy
May 02, 2010, 06:25 PM
I vote we research AH if there's no copper on our island, and don't otherwise.

What's the next worker move? My inclination would be to connect a gold with a road, and it's slightly quicker to connect the one we're on now. Actually maybe we should have built a road from the other gold, we're not going to be working the second gold for a while yet anyway.

Or were we planning to chop out the exploring work boat (which I'm assuming is the next build)?

dima42
May 02, 2010, 06:56 PM
I like workboat chopping more than connecting gold. I think this was in the original analysis.

Lord Parkin
May 02, 2010, 07:09 PM
Depends when we meet other teams, and who they may have already met.
I'm sure we'll meet other teams who we'll be able to trade with. If not, then we'll have problems a lot worse than missing Animal Husbandry for a few turns. If we don't find a partner, we won't have a chance to win the game. Simple as that. ;)

But I'm sure it won't be a problem. Other teams are inclined to cooperate early on for their own benefit too. Besides, we're probably getting out one of the earliest (if not the earliest) exploring Work Boat in the game.

We have no idea how big the map is, so it could be 5 turns of exploration, 10 turns, 20 or 50 before we find anyone.
The map is standard size. With 6 presumably evenly spaced teams, this gives an upper limit on how far anyone can possibly be from us. ;)

If we don't research AH before Writing, it wastes beakers. Horses are a key strategic resource. We will need pastures. And there aren't any techs other than Writing and Sailing which we have a real need for at the moment.
Monarchy? Maths? Civil Service?

Just re-stating my preference for AH and then I'll stop :deadhorse: . Unless the map makers are being cruel to amazon's team, there are going to be pastures in this game. Future cities are going to need them, and knowing where the horses are as we explore will be a big strategic advantage. I think it's worth delaying writing 2 or 3 turns rather than the big risk that 1) we'll meet another team in the near future; 2) they will actually want to trade us that tech.
As I said above, (1) there is a physical limit on how far any team can possibly be from us, and it is not that far; (2) if we can't find someone willing to trade with us, then we're dead anyway. ;) But I think that's unlikely.

I also am not sure and I don't think a lot of other people are sure what our tech plans are after Writing & Sailing. I've heard Alphabet, Math, and I'm starting to see some people showing that they'd like us to bee-line Monarchy next. Thoughts?
Monarchy, Maths and Civil Service seem to be our priorities to me, in no particular order at present. Potentially Alphabet too, once we meet someone (and assuming they're not going for it and willing to trade it).

Lord Parkin
May 02, 2010, 07:13 PM
What's the next worker move? My inclination would be to connect a gold with a road, and it's slightly quicker to connect the one we're on now.
I had the same thought until I realised that we won't need the happiness for quite a while. We're going to be growing to size 4 and immediately building a Settler. We're not going to need ANY extra happiness until after turn 40. As a result, it's much better to start chopping forests instead.

Actually maybe we should have built a road from the other gold, we're not going to be working the second gold for a while yet anyway.
No, either way the prebuilt road would be from the "other" Gold. We did it the right way, because this way the prebuilt road is in a position where, if we finish it, we can shave a turn off the founding of our second city.

Or were we planning to chop out the exploring work boat (which I'm assuming is the next build)?
That's it. ;)

I like workboat chopping more than connecting gold. I think this was in the original analysis.
Yep, indeed.

Irgy
May 02, 2010, 09:17 PM
No, either way the prebuilt road would be from the "other" Gold.

I get that, but you slightly misinterpreted me. I was suggesting that maybe we should have built a road on the southern gold square before we left it. Rather than, for instance, building a road now from this one. Building a road at least on the gold itself will save us a worker turn in the long run, but I can understand that it might not be worth delaying the chopping for two turns.

Lord Parkin
May 03, 2010, 12:52 AM
I get that, but you slightly misinterpreted me. I was suggesting that maybe we should have built a road on the southern gold square before we left it. Rather than, for instance, building a road now from this one. Building a road at least on the gold itself will save us a worker turn in the long run, but I can understand that it might not be worth delaying the chopping for two turns.
Since we don't need the Gold until well after turn 40, I think we probably did the right thing by not delaying our chops by 2-3 turns to build the road earlier. :)

azzaman333
May 03, 2010, 04:36 AM
I'm sure we'll meet other teams who we'll be able to trade with. If not, then we'll have problems a lot worse than missing Animal Husbandry for a few turns. If we don't find a partner, we won't have a chance to win the game. Simple as that. ;)

But I'm sure it won't be a problem. Other teams are inclined to cooperate early on for their own benefit too. Besides, we're probably getting out one of the earliest (if not the earliest) exploring Work Boat in the game.

Why waste our trades on getting AH though?

The map is standard size. With 6 presumably evenly spaced teams, this gives an upper limit on how far anyone can possibly be from us. ;)

"Standard sized map" actually doesn't mean anything as far as actual map size is concerned. Different maps have different dimensions. All we know is that it's custom built.

Monarchy? Maths? Civil Service?

Monarchy isn't critically important yet, Maths is a waste when we have as much food to whip as we do, Civil Service comes after Monarchy.

As I said above, (1) there is a physical limit on how far any team can possibly be from us, and it is not that far; (2) if we can't find someone willing to trade with us, then we're dead anyway. ;) But I think that's unlikely.

Keep in mind that those we meet first may not want to trade, and remember how long it took for Saturn and SANCTA to meet in the previous game.

Monarchy, Maths and Civil Service seem to be our priorities to me, in no particular order at present. Potentially Alphabet too, once we meet someone (and assuming they're not going for it and willing to trade it).

After AH, Writing, Sailing, the next best path is Monarchy via Meditation unless Hinduism isn't founded and Buddhism is.

Lord Parkin
May 03, 2010, 07:04 AM
Why waste our trades on getting AH though?
You seem to forget it takes time to research AH, just like any other tech. Let me put it to you this way: not researching AH will put us closer to some other tech that we could trade.

"Standard sized map" actually doesn't mean anything as far as actual map size is concerned. Different maps have different dimensions. All we know is that it's custom built.
Yeah, but it's not going to be crazily big. I'd doubt there's more than about 20 tiles between starts.

Monarchy isn't critically important yet, Maths is a waste when we have as much food to whip as we do, Civil Service comes after Monarchy.
It doesn't have to come after Monarchy. I almost always get CS through COL and not through Feudalism.

Keep in mind that those we meet first may not want to trade, and remember how long it took for Saturn and SANCTA to meet in the previous game.
We're not going to make that mistake again. This time, we're sending out an exploring Work Boat (two in fact) early on. We can't miss meeting someone, unless the mapmakers put ice blocking us in.

After AH, Writing, Sailing, the next best path is Monarchy via Meditation unless Hinduism isn't founded and Buddhism is.
I'd put in a bid for Maths before that path, but otherwise it sounds good.

champinoman
May 03, 2010, 09:12 AM
Not jumping into the discussion but this comment made me think:
Yeah, but it's not going to be crazily big. I'd doubt there's more than about 20 tiles between starts.

I looked at a standard map size and if the map is designed how we are speculating with us spread apart evenly then I would make an estimate of us being anywhere between 17-23 tiles away from each other at the start. Add to this a central island blocking a direct diagonal path to another team and that increases.

Just a thought I had.

grant2004
May 03, 2010, 10:11 AM
The most important thing for how long it will take us to find another team is the shape of the coastline. If we're stumbling around a chain of little islands it will take significantly longer to find someone than if we have a smooth clean coastline to travel down. We can't know how jagged the map might be until we start exploring.

After writing, I'm not sure where we should go, it seems a waste to not get math if we're going to be chopping forests, but I wonder what would happen if we did the monarchy beeline. It seems like a lot of players de-emphasize religion in MP games. We might have a chance to grab an early religion for easy happiness if the other teams have focused on techs to develop their land and resources like we have. It's also possible that we might be able to get the oracle, which is one of my favorite wonders, but I don't know how well that fits into our plans.

Lord Parkin
May 03, 2010, 03:36 PM
If the early religions (or at least one of them) haven't gone by the time we get Writing, then sure, I'm all up for researching down the Monarchy line straight away. Not sure that Oracle is a good idea though. Our research is pretty good, which means the free tech is less powerful. Also, we're not Industrious and don't have Marble, so would be building at minimum efficiency.

grant2004
May 03, 2010, 04:04 PM
Good research gives us a possibility to set up the oracle to grab an expensive tech. Metal Casting and CoL are what I normally get, I've heard of CS as a possibility. I doubt anyone else has marble, so I wouldn't consider that a huge detriment.

Of course, our strategy seems to be tending more towards early expansion. If an oracle build would slow down an important settler, or something it wouldn't be as worth it. We'll have to look at this again when we get closer to that point.

Lord Parkin
May 03, 2010, 04:18 PM
Getting CS from the Oracle is incredibly unlikely in a MTDG like this one. You have to delay the build to get the prereqs in time (usually COL + Maths), and by the time you've done that someone else has probably built it ahead of you. I'd bet that whoever gets the Oracle will almost certainly get MC or COL, with MC probably being the more likely choice (since it also pretty much guarantees the Colossus for that team).

T. Claudius
May 03, 2010, 05:34 PM
Have any of the early religions fallen yet?

In regards to our tech path I think alphabet should be an early priority. Having a monopoly on alphabet will allow us to trade with everybody without letting them trade among themselves, forcing them to trade with us early unless they want to be left out in the initial trading.

Currency I also think would be a valuable tech because of the boosted intercontinental trade routes, one of the reasons the GLH was disabled in this game.

We should probably try to negotiate trades with other teams before we come up with a long term tech path, though.

Lord Parkin
May 03, 2010, 05:51 PM
No religions have been founded yet, as of turn 24 (3040 BC).

We'll have to double check via testing whether trade routes will be able to be formed with other nations due to the line of ocean that's likely separating everyone's islands. Either way, CS will certainly prove much more powerful than Currency.

Lord Parkin
May 03, 2010, 05:54 PM
Turn 24 - 3040 BC

Moved the new Work Boat to the Fish. Next turn we need to build the Fishing Boat and work BOTH FISH (to allow growth to size 3 and 4 quicker, and in time for building the Settler).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=251477&stc=1&d=1272927202

Trystero
May 03, 2010, 06:00 PM
Also, no copper... :(

Well, that would have been asking a lot. :)

BLubmuz
May 03, 2010, 06:05 PM
Good research gives us a possibility to set up the oracle to grab an expensive tech. Metal Casting and CoL are what I normally get, I've heard of CS as a possibility. I doubt anyone else has marble, so I wouldn't consider that a huge detriment.

Of course, our strategy seems to be tending more towards early expansion. If an oracle build would slow down an important settler, or something it wouldn't be as worth it. We'll have to look at this again when we get closer to that point.The Oracle can be chopped and our Capital has enough production to afford it. With a start like this a CS sling would surely be in order if we play against AIs. But we're playing against other humans and they're not stupid (i don't know them, but i guess :p).
Usually the main constraint for a CS sling is research, not production, marble or not.

MC can be great, even if the Colossus is not so great for a financial Civ like us.
Actually i don't find it so great at all, i build it if i have nothing better to do.

But having a free tech if we do not penalize our expansion (or not too much) can be a great advantage.

Lord Parkin
May 03, 2010, 06:15 PM
Also, no copper... :(

Well, that would have been asking a lot. :)
Ah yeah, I forgot about that. A shame, but never mind.

But having a free tech if we do not penalize our expansion (or not too much) can be a great advantage.
Sure, no real disagreement there. I guess we can evaluate things closer to the time and decide if we want to go with an Oracle build or not.

Trystero
May 03, 2010, 06:22 PM
And also (again), our border should pop next turn, correct? That will reveal at least one more tile of the adjacent landmass. And allow exploring WBs to reach it.

AlphaShard
May 03, 2010, 06:36 PM
Well I am rather dissappointed at the no copper so I wonder if we have an metal on island at all? I think AH just got more appealing to me.

Irgy
May 03, 2010, 08:42 PM
Should we have a vote on the AH issue? I think we now know everything we need to to make the decision, but people still have different opinions.

For me, no copper means I vote for AH next. I don't think we can afford to wait to get it in trade, we could be missing out on BFC horses, or we could settle badly on the mainland. Plus chariots are vastly superior to warriors for exploring, and we don't have the option of axemen or archers.

azzaman333
May 03, 2010, 09:34 PM
No copper = definitely go for AH.

pottery & ah > writing > sailing > monarchy is looking like a very good plan to me. Even though we do have quite a few forests, the bonus from Maths isn't worth the time taken to research it, especially if Buddhism or Hinduism isn't founded by the time we finish sailing.

EDIT:
I was going to write a long reply to LP's post on the previous page but I knocked out my power cable while writing it so I can't be bothered writing it again.

pindicator
May 03, 2010, 09:43 PM
My bets on our 2 metal mountains: coal & aluminum :lol:

Irgy
May 03, 2010, 11:20 PM
I really don't expect to get Buddhism or Hinduism. I expect someone, probably the Ghandi team, will go for the Oracle as soon as they have their worker techs, and they'll pick up one of those on the way in probably the next 10 turns or so. I think the other will go a little later, but sooner than we're likely to get it with all the things we need to research first.

We could try for Judaism on the way through, but that means getting masonry as well which we have no use for currently.

While I'd prefer not to wait to trade animal handling, Monarchy is such a detour that I think it will be worth waiting to pick up as many of the pre-requisites as possible in trade. On the other hand, if we take something like the following line after Sailing:

Mathematics->Alphabet->Currency->Code of Laws->Civil Service

Then I think we'll be getting techs that other teams haven't got to yet (as opposed to Monarchy where they'll have a head start, at least by Mysticism that they'll have for those big silly rocks that we don't need), while at the same time picking up a whole lot of the best economy techs along the way.

azzaman333
May 04, 2010, 12:25 AM
Monarchy is more important than Maths, Alpha, Currency, CoL or Civil Service because of the nature of the map. We'll have to pay a lot more for our new cities once we move off the island, so generating as much as possible from the homeland is very important. That means we need to grow to our potential.

I've never advocated Monarchy for the chance of getting Buddhism or Hinduism. It's always been with the goal of getting Monarchy, and by extension Hereditary Rule. It's a major part of the reason to ignore Hunting.

Irgy
May 04, 2010, 12:42 AM
The cost of cities off the homeland makes CoL more important as well, while currency greatly increases the benefits of cities off the homeland (assuming we can get the intercontinental trade routes through our culture borders anyway, which someone still needs to check).

That said, I agree with everything you say there.

HR also has another benefit that when we revolt to HR we can also (finally) revolt to slavery, something which personally I expect we'll regret not having done sooner. The longer we delay HR the longer we delay slavery by extension.

Maybe we should suspend this discussion until after Sailing, by which point we may well have met at least one other civ and can take the prospect of possibility of trading for religeous techs a little more seriously.

azzaman333
May 04, 2010, 01:04 AM
The cost of cities off the homeland makes CoL more important as well,

The cities need to grow before they can efficiently build a Courthouse though, meaning we still need more :commerce: to fund their existence while they grow.

while currency greatly increases the benefits of cities off the homeland (assuming we can get the intercontinental trade routes through our culture borders anyway, which someone still needs to check).

We will get trade routes through our cultural borders. Still, currency is only +2:commerce: per city. Important, but not as important as HR.

HR also has another benefit that when we revolt to HR we can also (finally) revolt to slavery, something which personally I expect we'll regret not having done sooner. The longer we delay HR the longer we delay slavery by extension.

We will almost certainly need Slavery before we tech Monarchy though.

Maybe we should suspend this discussion until after Sailing, by which point we may well have met at least one other civ and can take the prospect of possibility of trading for religeous techs a little more seriously.

Probably a wise idea.

AlphaShard
May 04, 2010, 03:06 AM
Are we to wait to trade for Hunting and Archery? I understand ignoring them for now I just worry that it might be an invintation for invansion later.

As for religons have seen the English Ai twice getting Buddism.

azzaman333
May 04, 2010, 04:11 AM
Are we to wait to trade for Hunting and Archery? I understand ignoring them for now I just worry that it might be an invintation for invansion later.

As for religons have seen the English Ai twice getting Buddism.

We don't need Hunting or Archery if we have Horses, Iron or Copper (which we might find on a nearby landmass).

At least, until we find Furs or Ivory, and need the Camps. This will wreck our plan to use Warriors for MP, instead Archers will be cheapest.

AlphaShard
May 04, 2010, 04:39 AM
Axemen and swordsmen don't make for great defenders and horse units are even worse as they don't get defensive bonuses.

azzaman333
May 04, 2010, 04:50 AM
Archers are crap.

AlphaShard
May 04, 2010, 05:19 AM
I have a ton of dead units that beg to differ with you on that. Plus Spearman are the only defense against Horse and Chariots.

azzaman333
May 04, 2010, 05:21 AM
AI stupidity doesn't make Archers good in MP. There's nothing they do the alternatives can't.

AlphaShard
May 04, 2010, 05:48 AM
Mounted Units do not get any defensive bonus so that's what Archers and Spearman can do that they can't.

Axe and Swords do not get City defense or First Strike so that's what Archers can do that they can't.

azzaman333
May 04, 2010, 05:54 AM
Axes and Swords don't need City Defense or First Strike to be as good as Archers at defending. Plus, Archers can't counter attack.

Irgy
May 04, 2010, 06:21 AM
Defense in multiplayer is more about counter-offense than actually defending. You need to be able to wipe out the attackers not just survive the attack or you'll just end up pillaged and choked. So archers aren't as good as all that because you can't wipe out any enemy stacks with them.

That said, chariots alone aren't that crash hot for being the only unit we ever build either. Chariots and metal units would be ok, chariots and archers would do in a pinch. What we really want though is catapults.

BLubmuz
May 04, 2010, 06:56 AM
Monarchy before math with all those forests to chop?
And before currency?

Never heard that.

Hunting will give a bonus on AH, which will give a bonus on writing. What do we plan to trade for hunting? Writing perhaps?

Since we have no copper, can we consider to research IW somewhere soon? I'm nervous without metals. Just a bit less for being on an island, but not much.

champinoman
May 04, 2010, 09:28 AM
Hunting will give a bonus on AH, which will give a bonus on writing. What do we plan to trade for hunting? Writing perhaps?

We are holding out on Hunting to allow us to build cheap Warriors when we get HR. This is worth more than the bonus we get when researching AH.

Since we have no copper, can we consider to research IW somewhere soon? I'm nervous without metals. Just a bit less for being on an island, but not much.

Its quite a while until anyone even has the opportunity to attack us. And an attack will not come prematurely in this type of game. We have time to worry about our shortage of copper.

BLubmuz
May 04, 2010, 11:16 AM
We are holding out on Hunting to allow us to build cheap Warriors when we get HR. This is worth more than the bonus we get when researching AH.

Its quite a while until anyone even has the opportunity to attack us. And an attack will not come prematurely in this type of game. We have time to worry about our shortage of copper.There's a (big) hole in your reasoning. We do not need to delay hunting to continue build warriors if our only metal is gold. :)

Maybe this strategy was thought when we were sure to have copper, now it probably needs to be revised.

For my nerves, i think you can be right. Still, i'm nervous.

AlphaShard
May 04, 2010, 11:20 AM
I agree having Cats will decimate a stack but it's going to be awhile before we get to those.

The point I was getting at is that an Axe vs Axe is at best 50% unless you have the bonus +25 which you'll also have to have the +10% as well. An Archer has a much better chance defending agiainst an axe or sword within it's city with City Defense or First Strike.

Course Prats will absolutly rape Archers but were not Roman and neither is anyone else.

Spearmen are best against Horse archers and shouldn't be ignored since Amazon is out there with their Persian Immortals.

Frankly I have a hard time getting Chariots to win at anything and though I think it was either MLS or TMIT that talked about throwing 70 chariots at some riflman and the last one won. I think that makes the point on how crappy the unit is if you need 70 to just get through. Any unit can get overwhelmed if you throw enough units at it. I'm talking about a One on One basis.

I think I've come to the conclusion that I am going to enjoy the one unit per tile mechanic afterall.

Trystero
May 04, 2010, 03:44 PM
It's hard to evaluate the various options for what type of military units to build given how little information about the map we currently have. I'm therefore advocating that our first priority should be exploration. Even if the home island doesn't have copper (or horses), the adjacent island might. It would be much easier to evaluate our future tech path if we knew what resources were available.

My "vote" on the AH issue: I don't think we need horses until after we leave the home island, and my feeling is that there aren't any here anyway. That said, I think we'll need AH by the time we try to settle on the adjacent island. Given champinoman's analysis, the benefits of researching AH before Writing are minimal so I would rather prioritize Writing > Sailing at this point, and then research AH when are ready to move a settler to the next island.

So I would rather delay AH, but I won't object if most people want to research it now. I think exploring the neighboring island (i.e. Sailing) should be our number 1 priority.

I am opposed, however, to backtracking to Hunting > Archery. Unless the Persians show up soon (and we have metal) I see no immediate need for spears, and we have no camp-able resources. And, as others have said, Archers would be a military unit of last resort.

Lord Parkin
May 04, 2010, 04:29 PM
Yeah, zero need for Archers unless it's a last stand and you have no hope regardless. You need offensive units to take the fight to the other team. So let's skip Hunting/Archery for the forseeable future.

I still vote for waiting on AH and researching Pottery -> Writing. But that's just me.

BLubmuz
May 04, 2010, 05:30 PM
Yeah, zero need for Archers unless it's a last stand and you have no hope regardless. You need offensive units to take the fight to the other team. So let's skip Hunting/Archery for the forseeable future.

I still vote for waiting on AH and researching Pottery -> Writing. But that's just me.Surely a library, a cheap library, will make up for not having the research benefits of the pre-requisite techs. Provided we built it soon. Otherwise...

I see hunting only like a tech to speed up AH, no more. Archers? the last stand.
If i haven't it in trade (only in AW games) i research it after Machinery. Guess why?

Irgy
May 04, 2010, 07:24 PM
Surely a library, a cheap library, will make up for not having the research benefits of the pre-requisite techs. Provided we built it soon. Otherwise...

I thought so too originally, but basically the conclusion was we save more beakers from the pre-requisite tech than from the library, because AH doesn't hold up the library by as many turns as it takes to research AH.

Basically, we don't need writing nor sailing any sooner than we can get them while getting AH first. I don't expect we'll need Alphabet or Maths any sooner than we can get them while getting AH first, and I don't think we can get all the way to Monarchy or Currency before we're going to miss being able to spot horses.

DaveShack
May 04, 2010, 07:58 PM
I think we're reaching the point on AH where a poll is the only way to resolve it. It's way too evenly split to guess if one has more support than the other.

caveman1917
May 04, 2010, 08:09 PM
I think we're reaching the point on AH where a poll is the only way to resolve it. It's way too evenly split to guess if one has more support than the other.

I agree. There seem to about the same number of people for AH-Writing as for skipping AH until needed with exploration. And if i remember correctly, also a voice for hunting-ah-writing, which should be included for completeness sake if people want to go this tech path.

Lord Parkin
May 04, 2010, 08:29 PM
Okay, I've set up a poll for the decision. Everyone go vote. :)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9158189#post9158189

azzaman333
May 05, 2010, 04:21 AM
Skipping AH, when we have no copper, is insane.

AlphaShard
May 05, 2010, 06:35 AM
If one of the other teams switched to Slavery would we see the annocement of it? Or only when we make contact?

Skipping IW when we have no copper is insane.

Lord Parkin
May 05, 2010, 07:09 AM
If one of the other teams switched to Slavery would we see the annocement of it? Or only when we make contact?
Only once we've made contact.

grant2004
May 05, 2010, 07:23 AM
About intercontinental trade routes. We will have trade over that ocean tile because our culture is on it. I happened to have a single player game with the same circumstances, and I was able to trade across the ocean before astronomy.

Lord Parkin
May 05, 2010, 08:37 AM
Right, but will we also be able to trade over someone else's culture in an ocean tile to their island?

azzaman333
May 05, 2010, 08:50 AM
Right, but will we also be able to trade over someone else's culture in an ocean tile to their island?

No .

Lord Parkin
May 05, 2010, 08:59 AM
So Currency won't really be that useful in the near-mid future.

azzaman333
May 05, 2010, 09:01 AM
I disagree.
Currency will give us +2:commerce: minimum per city once we have 2 cities on other continents. Not as useful, but still very handy.

AlphaShard
May 05, 2010, 11:48 AM
When are we changing over to Slavery ourselves?

Trystero
May 05, 2010, 12:50 PM
I disagree.
Currency will give us +2:commerce: minimum per city once we have 2 cities on other continents. Not as useful, but still very handy.

Currency will also allow us to build wealth, allowing us to run the research slider at 100% longer, and is often a better thing to build than some building we don't really need.

Irgy
May 05, 2010, 03:19 PM
With apologies for the technically off topic post, we're looking for a sub in the intrateam game at the moment as one of the players seems to have disappeared. Anyone interested should comment in the intra-team game thread.

wabatt
May 05, 2010, 03:49 PM
If one of the other teams switched to Slavery would we see the annocement of it? Or only when we make contact?


couldn't we see from the demos if somebody suddenly went into anarchy?

Lord Parkin
May 05, 2010, 04:46 PM
When are we changing over to Slavery ourselves?
Not until we need it. I believe we were talking about switching when the Settler was on the way to the second city site, but I'm not sure if that was decided.

Currency will also allow us to build wealth, allowing us to run the research slider at 100% longer, and is often a better thing to build than some building we don't really need.
Wealth is only something I build at the very end of the game. In the early game, there is always some building or unit that you could use, especially with our fast research rate. Researching Currency to build Wealth would be a bad idea, IMHO. ;)

couldn't we see from the demos if somebody suddenly went into anarchy?
True, but only provided we keep a meticulous eye on the demographics screen every turn, and make sure we log in near the end of the turn too so another team doesn't switch between logins (which we wouldn't see). In short, it's not as simple as it might sound, and doesn't really gain us any information. We see civics instantly upon meeting anyway.

Trystero
May 05, 2010, 05:07 PM
Wealth is only something I build at the very end of the game. In the early game, there is always some building or unit that you could use, especially with our fast research rate. Researching Currency to build Wealth would be a bad idea, IMHO. ;)


Perhaps. I often take the Currency route to CoL, so I find it better to build wealth in some of my more marginal cities to keep the research slider up.

Regardless, I don't know if that is the way to go in this game. Since we are Financial, it might be better to go for Monarchy after Writing/Sailing as azzaman suggested. My reasoning is that we'd want to work as many tiles as possible in the capital to grow cottages. Monarchy/HR happiness from MPs would help in that regard. We could also trade it for Alphabet, potentially.

Trystero
May 05, 2010, 05:25 PM
LP played the next turn, but I wanted to see what the border pop revealed before he got around to posting his update. I'll let him do the formal update, but... the land mass to SE/E looks pretty significant:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0074.jpg

Look at all that cottagable land! (Riverside even!) :drool: I hate to :deadhorse:, but we have got to get over there. :)

AlphaShard
May 05, 2010, 06:59 PM
There's also a hill I can see under the fog there, so theres possibility of Metals as well, hopefully that is where our copper is!

pindicator
May 05, 2010, 08:31 PM
Well, I think after the library & settler, our next goal is definitely to scout out that landmass!

champinoman
May 05, 2010, 10:03 PM
I was really hoping to have a cow or pig revealed over there to make the AH decision easier :P

So Currency won't really be that useful in the near-mid future.

As soon as we settle our first city on that landmass we should assume other teams are doing the same thing meaning that we get the inter-continental bonus with those cities but just not with their homeland cities.

Irgy
May 06, 2010, 12:29 AM
LP played the next turn, but I wanted to see what the border pop revealed before he got around to posting his update. I'll let him do the formal update, but... the land mass to SE/E looks pretty significant:

I'm starting to wonder about this "mainland". I can see a non-yeilding ocean tile to the south, in between the landmass we can now see a lot of, and that implied landmass to the west. That in turn means that if those two landmasses are connected at all, it's certainly via a quite indirect route. This suggests to me one of two things:
* A star shape with our islands in the gaps between the star points
* An all-out archipelago style map, with a whole lot of little islands and possibly no "main central landmass" at all.

In either case, I suggest we send our scouting workboat clockwise (i.e. northeast initially) around the visible landmass, as I expect we're more likely to reach another team's island sooner going in that direction.

champinoman
May 06, 2010, 01:28 AM
I like that logic. Even if its wrong we lose nothing by heading in a clockwise direction.

Trystero
May 06, 2010, 01:47 AM
I just noticed that the northern-most tile exposed on that landmass has 1C. So the water visible to the N isn't coast (as I had initially thought) but a river.

I also like Irgy's exploration plan. It remains possible that this is another large island, rather than the "mainland", but given the amount of grassland tiles it definitely looks promising. And unoccupied.

azzaman333
May 06, 2010, 02:05 AM
The river tiles look nice but it's not better than any land we currently have without at least 1 good food source.

Lord Parkin
May 06, 2010, 02:13 AM
I'm starting to wonder about this "mainland". I can see a non-yeilding ocean tile to the south, in between the landmass we can now see a lot of, and that implied landmass to the west. That in turn means that if those two landmasses are connected at all, it's certainly via a quite indirect route. This suggests to me one of two things:
* A star shape with our islands in the gaps between the star points
* An all-out archipelago style map, with a whole lot of little islands and possibly no "main central landmass" at all.
Yep, exactly. This is what I was betting on several weeks back. ;)

In either case, I suggest we send our scouting workboat clockwise (i.e. northeast initially) around the visible landmass, as I expect we're more likely to reach another team's island sooner going in that direction.
I might vote for counterclockwise just to be different. :p

Trystero
May 06, 2010, 02:25 AM
The river tiles look nice but it's not better than any land we currently have without at least 1 good food source.

Well, at worst I suppose we could cottage-spam. Being Financial that wouldn't be completely disastrous. But yeah, horse/cows/something would be nice. :)

I might vote for counterclockwise just to be different. :p

Shouldn't the direction depend on whether we are in the Northern or Southern Hemisphere? ;)

Lord Parkin
May 06, 2010, 03:54 AM
Well, at worst I suppose we could cottage-spam. Being Financial that wouldn't be completely disastrous. But yeah, horse/cows/something would be nice. :)
When is cottage-spam ever disastrous?

Shouldn't the direction depend on whether we are in the Northern or Southern Hemisphere? ;)
Not really, I'd expect all the teams should be roughly evenly spaced, so the direction we start in shouldn't matter too much.

azzaman333
May 06, 2010, 04:12 AM
When is cottage-spam ever disastrous?

Lack of production, overrun by jealous neighbours.

BLubmuz
May 06, 2010, 04:41 AM
LP played the next turn, but I wanted to see what the border pop revealed before he got around to posting his update. I'll let him do the formal update, but... the land mass to SE/E looks pretty significant:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0074.jpg

Look at all that cottagable land! (Riverside even!) :drool: I hate to :deadhorse:, but we have got to get over there. :)I think we need sailing right after writing and send a galley with a warrior to explore that land.
it looks good enough to settle a city, probably our 3rd just to claim that land.
low production? yes for what we can see. but it can be strategic for further REX in another landmass, or a foothold if the landmass is big enough.

A workboat can't see deep in the land, we need to walk.

AlphaShard
May 06, 2010, 05:28 AM
I guess people missed where I said we can see a hill peaking out under the fog?

azzaman333
May 06, 2010, 05:48 AM
I guess people missed where I said we can see a hill peaking out under the fog?

Hills don't give food.

AlphaShard
May 06, 2010, 05:55 AM
They do if they have sheep or pig on them. However I was trying to point out that we have production tiles so that won't be a problem in that area. We need to explore that area.

azzaman333
May 06, 2010, 06:03 AM
They do if they have sheep or pig on them. However I was trying to point out that we have production tiles so that won't be a problem in that area. We need to explore that area.

Commerce cities only need enough production to build a granary and a library. Maybe a lighthouse.

AlphaShard
May 06, 2010, 06:57 AM
Those are such cheap builds you could probably whip them. Then once those are done what do you do for the remaining couple thousand years?

azzaman333
May 06, 2010, 07:47 AM
Those whipping turns could be spent maturing cottages, and once the core building are built, you build research or wealth. (until Universal Suffrage is an option)

Let the production cities produce things.

AlphaShard
May 06, 2010, 09:02 AM
Do you guys really have fun doing the same method over and over again?

Trystero
May 06, 2010, 11:33 AM
Not really, I'd expect all the teams should be roughly evenly spaced, so the direction we start in shouldn't matter too much.

I guess I was a little too subtle. That was kind of a joke about the Coriolis effect. (Hence the ;))

Lack of production, overrun by jealous neighbours.

You're quite the optimist, you know that azzaman? :lol:

Trystero
May 06, 2010, 02:04 PM
LP hadn't posted the turn yet, so I took the liberty:

Turn 25 - 3000 BC

Lord Parkin built the Fishing Boat and worked both fish (to allow growth to size 3 and 4 quicker, and in time for building the Settler). The border expanded to reveal more of the neighboring land mass.

Sirius will grow to size 3 on the next turn and work both fish and a gold mine. The worker has finished the gold mine N of Sirius, and will move 1 W on the next turn to begin chopping.

Our island:
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0075.jpg

...and more of the map that's been exposed (with the interface off):
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0076.jpg

A close-up view of the new lands in this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9160605&postcount=591)

Let me know if I didn't get the tile or worker micro correct.

Edit: LP, did you also start moving the warrior to the "City C" site?

BLubmuz
May 06, 2010, 04:43 PM
The more i look to that land, the more i think it should be the target for our first or max 2nd settler. I guess we'll go for sailing after writing.

Can please anyone give me the PWD for the main game?

T. Claudius
May 06, 2010, 05:35 PM
It's in the "Team Information" thread.(It's stickied) Tw1n.St4rs or something like that.

caveman1917
May 06, 2010, 06:45 PM
Shouldn't the direction depend on whether we are in the Northern or Southern Hemisphere? ;)

Only if you are a hurricane ;)

EDIT: oh, you already gave it away :D i should read through all posts before replying :)
EDIT2: just a random fact about the coriolis effect, many people (even school teachers!) say it makes water in sinks run in different directions in different hemispheres. But it doesn't have any effect to that at all, the coriolis effect is way too weak for that compared to other disturbances in the water flow. Check it ;) (i did after my high school geography teacher told me, and i showed her, but she still didn't believe me...stubborn people, those teachers :D)

Lord Parkin
May 06, 2010, 06:51 PM
LP hadn't posted the turn yet, so I took the liberty:
Cheers, I had forgotten about that.

Edit: LP, did you also start moving the warrior to the "City C" site?
No, I didn't. Someone else must have set that move up on "automate". The Warrior should NOT have moved from the Silk tile. Before no barbs could spawn, and now a barb or two can potentially spawn. Whoever did that, please remember: LEAVE the Warrior on the Silk tile 3NW of the capital. If a barb (or two) spawns, we could be in big trouble.

It's in the "Team Information" thread.(It's stickied) Tw1n.St4rs or something like that.
Yep, indeed.

Trystero
May 06, 2010, 07:56 PM
No, I didn't. Someone else must have set that move up on "automate". The Warrior should NOT have moved from the Silk tile. Before no barbs could spawn, and now a barb or two can potentially spawn. Whoever did that, please remember: LEAVE the Warrior on the Silk tile 3NW of the capital. If a barb (or two) spawns, we could be in big trouble.


OK - I added a reminder to the post in the Turn Tracking Thread to move the warrior back next turn.

Trystero
May 06, 2010, 08:24 PM
Can someone explain to me how tiles are revealed by cultural expansion? Specifically in the 2nd image of the Turn 25 post above, I'd like to know why the water tiles 2E1S and 1E3S weren't exposed by our culture but tiles both S and E of them were?

Also why is that southern-most forested tile exposed, but not any of the tiles to its west (which are directly below our capital)?

Thanks.

azzaman333
May 06, 2010, 08:57 PM
Can someone explain to me how tiles are revealed by cultural expansion? Specifically in the 2nd image of the Turn 25 post above, I'd like to know why the water tiles 2E1S and 1E3S weren't exposed by our culture but tiles both S and E of them were?

Also why is that southern-most forested tile exposed, but not any of the tiles to its west (which are directly below our capital)?

Thanks.

Land tiles are 1 elevation level above water tiles. It's the same idea as being able to see hills that are 2 tiles away when you're on flat land.

Trystero
May 07, 2010, 02:31 AM
Land tiles are 1 elevation level above water tiles. It's the same idea as being able to see hills that are 2 tiles away when you're on flat land.

Ah. Thanks azzaman.

azzaman333
May 07, 2010, 04:31 AM
You're quite the optimist, you know that azzaman? :lol:

I try my hardest. :mischief:

Irgy
May 07, 2010, 05:08 PM
Turn 26 - 2960BC

Grown to size 3, working two seafood and a gold mine.

Worker moved to a forest ready to chop. Warrior moved back to his spawn-busting spot.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=251933&stc=1&d=1273269993

BLubmuz
May 07, 2010, 06:15 PM
Turn 26 - 2960BC

Grown to size 3, working two seafood and a gold mine.

Worker moved to a forest ready to chop. Warrior moved back to his spawn-busting spot.Irgy, seen our SG, that warrior is now completely fogbusting the W and the S.
1 more warrior 1 N of his present position, can do the same N.
Thus it's better build quickly another warrior, possibly right after the WB.

Lord Parkin
May 07, 2010, 07:02 PM
Irgy, seen our SG, that warrior is now completely fogbusting the W and the S.
1 more warrior 1 N of his present position, can do the same N.
Thus it's better build quickly another warrior, possibly right after the WB.
Our island is completely fogbusted. Repeat, we do not NEED any more Warriors to fogbust the island, because it is already fogbusted. Building a Warrior will delay our Settler and Library anyway.

Trystero
May 08, 2010, 02:08 AM
Our island is completely fogbusted. Repeat, we do not NEED any more Warriors to fogbust the island, because it is already fogbusted. Building a Warrior will delay our Settler and Library anyway.

So we are going to hook up the gold for happiness by the time we reach size 5? Is that the plan? I had some questions about the worker micro anyway, might as well refresh my memory. For the next few turns I see:

27: worker starts chop on his current tile.
28: Pottery done, start next tech. (AH or Writing)
29: chop finishes
30: Sirius grows to 4 works both fish and both gold. WB finished, start settler? Worker moves 1W to forested Silk tile?
31: Worker starts next chop for settler (chop done on turn 33, settler on 35).

Is that right, as far as the worker moves? After that would then finish the road 1W of Sirius, and road the western gold mine I presume? Otherwise we risk growing to unhappiness.

champinoman
May 08, 2010, 06:11 AM
The plan you have outlined is the one that I have been using in my test games. Unless anyone else has any improvements then its most likely the one we we use to get our 2nd city built on turn 39.

champinoman
May 08, 2010, 06:16 AM
After that would then finish the road 1W of Sirius, and road the western gold mine I presume? Otherwise we risk growing to unhappiness.

Just noticed this end comment. I think its best (and invite comment) that we should chop a 3rd forest to get the library out quicker. In my test games I have done this and then gone on to road the gold and in both scenarios (AH or no AH) we can still get the road hooked up just before pop5 and happiness issues.

Irgy
May 08, 2010, 06:38 AM
So we are going to hook up the gold for happiness by the time we reach size 5? Is that the plan? I had some questions about the worker micro anyway, might as well refresh my memory. For the next few turns I see:

27: worker starts chop on his current tile.
28: Pottery done, start next tech. (AH or Writing)
29: chop finishes
30: Sirius grows to 4 works both fish and both gold. WB finished, start settler? Worker moves 1W to forested Silk tile?
31: Worker starts next chop for settler (chop done on turn 33, settler on 35).

Is that right, as far as the worker moves? After that would then finish the road 1W of Sirius, and road the western gold mine I presume? Otherwise we risk growing to unhappiness.

The silk is the best unimproved tile we've got, I'd be inclined to chop the grass hill next instead. Once we chop the silk it's no better than the many river grasslands we already have. Maybe it doesn't matter because we always have better tiles to work (or scientists to run?), I don't know, but there's no harm I can see in leaving it either.

champinoman
May 08, 2010, 08:20 AM
Your right that we will always have better tiles to work until we get HR but I still think we could select the better forests to chop for long term planning. It looks like we will be chopping 3 so we can get an assortment of tiles ready for later. I think we already moved onto a forest for the first chop so I guess that ones decided or else we are wasting turns.

BLubmuz
May 08, 2010, 08:25 AM
Our island is completely fogbusted. Repeat, we do not NEED any more Warriors to fogbust the island, because it is already fogbusted. Building a Warrior will delay our Settler and Library anyway.Wrong! There's the tile NW of the "G" sign not fogbusted. I know it's not much probable a barb can spawn, but it's also not sure.

azzaman333
May 08, 2010, 08:30 AM
Wrong! There's the tile NW of the "G" sign not fogbusted. I know it's not much probable a barb can spawn, but it's also not sure.

Actually, it is. Any tile within 2 tiles of another unit cannot spawn a barbarian.

BLubmuz
May 08, 2010, 09:07 AM
Actually, it is. Any tile within 2 tiles of another unit cannot spawn a barbarian.hm... sorry, you're right. Probably i was duped by all those signs. I counted 3. Realized looking to the map for the 10th or so time.

Trystero
May 08, 2010, 05:29 PM
The plan you have outlined is the one that I have been using in my test games. Unless anyone else has any improvements then its most likely the one we we use to get our 2nd city built on turn 39.

That's most likely where I got it from. :) I was at least playing some variant of this in my most recent test games.

Just noticed this end comment. I think its best (and invite comment) that we should chop a 3rd forest to get the library out quicker. In my test games I have done this and then gone on to road the gold and in both scenarios (AH or no AH) we can still get the road hooked up just before pop5 and happiness issues.

OK, chopping the library makes sense to me.

The silk is the best unimproved tile we've got, I'd be inclined to chop the grass hill next instead. Once we chop the silk it's no better than the many river grasslands we already have. Maybe it doesn't matter because we always have better tiles to work (or scientists to run?), I don't know, but there's no harm I can see in leaving it either.

This makes sense also. The only reason I think I picked the Silk tile is that we could move the worker to 1W of Siriusfrom that tile in 1 turn. I made a map to plan out chopping:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/chopping.jpg

I've marker all the forested tiles currently in our cultural border. The star is where the worker is currently.

In any case, the Worker will chop the tile where he is currently located. These plans might be the same as champinoman's analysis.

If we go AH first:

28: Pottery done, start AH
29: chop finished
30: WB finished, start Settler, worker moves to 3.
31: start chop
33: AH done, start Writing, chop done
34: worker moves to 2.
35: start chop
36: settler done, start Warrior (?).
37: chop finished, Writing done, start Sailing, warrior done, start library
38: Worker moves to 8 (?, this takes 2 turns)
40: start chop, found second city at site C
41: library done, start another Settler?
42: Sailing done

or for Writing first:

28: Pottery done, start AH
29: chop finished
30: WB finished, start Settler, worker moves to 3.
31: start chop
33: chop done
34: Writing done, start Sailing, worker moves to 2
35: start chop
36: settler done, start library
37: chop done
38: Sailing done, start "Next Tech", Worker moves to 8
39: library done, start another Settler?
40: start chop, found second city

Do these seem OK, at least with regard to builds/chopping? I admit that I'm becoming more comfortable with AH first, which is holding a slim lead so far.

Edit: After some thought, the best next build after the library might be a Worker for the second city (I'm assume the first build for that city would be a Work Boat).

Trystero
May 08, 2010, 05:33 PM
hm... sorry, you're right. Probably i was duped by all those signs. I counted 3. Realized looking to the map for the 10th or so time.

I think we could get rid of at least some of these tags. Particularly those marking the "metal hills".

Irgy
May 08, 2010, 08:42 PM
Spots 2, 3, 4 and 5 are all outside the BFC, so you don't get as many hammers for chopping these. It would be better to save these for when we've settled cities near them, but more to the point they won't speed up our development by as much as the forests which are in the BFC.

I'd imagined we would just chop *, 6, then 7/8. Afterward that the worker has other things to do like road the gold and improve the gold in the 'C' city.

champinoman
May 08, 2010, 09:20 PM
I agree with Irgy's movement pattern for the worker because, as Irgy said, it chops inside the BFC. But it also only requires 1 turn of movement after the 3rd chop to get onto the SW gold mine to start the road. So 6, 7 or 8 needs to be the last chop.

champinoman
May 08, 2010, 09:33 PM
Turn 27 - 2920BC

- Worker Started chop on forest 2N of Sirius.
- Warrior put into sentry mode on fog busting tile.

Our Island:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=252067&stc=1&d=1273372211
Demographics:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=252068&stc=1&d=1273372276
Its time now to make a decision. AH or not? Pottery finishes next turn.

azzaman333
May 08, 2010, 09:47 PM
Poll sez AH when taking into account BLubmuz's changed vote.

Trystero
May 08, 2010, 11:03 PM
Poll sez AH when taking into account BLubmuz's changed vote.

I think everybody who's going to vote has voted, so yes it looks that way. As I said, even as someone who voted for Writing first, I am more comfortable getting AH now, having played a few test games.

Spots 2, 3, 4 and 5 are all outside the BFC, so you don't get as many hammers for chopping these. It would be better to save these for when we've settled cities near them, but more to the point they won't speed up our development by as much as the forests which are in the BFC.

I'd imagined we would just chop *, 6, then 7/8. Afterward that the worker has other things to do like road the gold and improve the gold in the 'C' city.

OK, that sounds good. I was trying to maximize the number of chops early, to speed production. But maximizing hammer yield makes sense. Micro isn't necessarily my forte. Anyone better suited want to post the plan for the micro for the next few turns?

BLubmuz
May 09, 2010, 03:06 PM
I do not went to see the game, but i think we have not built the road on gold.
At normal speed this sucks. We need to climb again that hill to road it, and it's 1 worker turn lost.
Also, the chopping can probably be better timed after we start the library, to benefit from the 100% bonus.
If we think to chop outside our territory before math, we're simply wasting forests.

Lord Parkin
May 09, 2010, 03:58 PM
I'd imagined we would just chop *, 6, then 7/8. Afterward that the worker has other things to do like road the gold and improve the gold in the 'C' city.
Agreed.

Poll sez AH when taking into account BLubmuz's changed vote.
Yeah, 10-8 in favour at present.

I do not went to see the game, but i think we have not built the road on gold.
At normal speed this sucks. We need to climb again that hill to road it, and it's 1 worker turn lost.
Well, either way it's a bit late now. But not building the road straight away was actually better in our situation. Otherwise, all subsequent forest chops would be delayed by 2 turns each. This would consequently have delayed several of our builds, as well as the founding of our 2nd city. Spending an extra turn later to get back on the hill is preferable to spending 2 extra turns building everything in the present.

Also, the chopping can probably be better timed after we start the library, to benefit from the 100% bonus.
Either way the number of TURNS saved is the same. And we'll be chopping both during the Library and during the Settler. If we hold on to the chops while we're building the Settler, then the Library will be delayed. The way to get it out fastest is to not delay ANY chops.

If we think to chop outside our territory before math, we're simply wasting forests.
Not quite, but I agree that it's not a good idea to chop forests outside our BFC's before Maths.

AlphaShard
May 09, 2010, 03:59 PM
Were working on a settler next so we still don't need worry about it yet. We will get to it though.

Lord Parkin
May 09, 2010, 04:01 PM
Were working on a settler next so we still don't need worry about it yet. We will get to it though.
Are you talking about hooking up the Gold, or chopping the forests? That statement is a bit ambiguous. ;) I presume you mean hooking up the Gold, in which case, I agree.

AlphaShard
May 09, 2010, 04:04 PM
You posted the same time as I did I was responding to the need to build roads on the gold. We have time yet to worry about our happy cap later.

azzaman333
May 09, 2010, 08:59 PM
Having time later is not efficient.

But I cbf with the worker micro so meh.

AlphaShard
May 09, 2010, 09:14 PM
Having time later is not efficient.

But I cbf with the worker micro so meh.

Weren't you the one insisting that we whip and chop? Thus nesscessitating us to build the road later? And what does cbf mean?

champinoman
May 09, 2010, 11:25 PM
Weren't you the one insisting that we whip and chop? Thus nesscessitating us to build the road later? And what does cbf mean?

Can't be F**ked :)

Its all been done now anyway so there is no need to get into a discussion on whether or not we should have built the road on the hill and delay the chops 2 turns.

azzaman333
May 10, 2010, 02:28 AM
Weren't you the one insisting that we whip and chop? Thus nesscessitating us to build the road later? And what does cbf mean?

I never stated much of a preference for chopping. At least, not that I can recall. I just wanted :whip:

Trystero
May 10, 2010, 12:31 PM
I had the morning off, so I went ahead a played this turn. Someone had already selected AH as the next tech but not ended the turn. As AH has had a slim but consistent lead in the poll and there hasn't been much activity/new analysis, I went ahead and committed us to that path. (As an aside I was prepared to switch my vote to AH in the event of a tie, so I don't think I was being presumptuous by doing so.) Onward:

Turn 28 - 2880 BC

Pottery done. Started researching Animal Husbandry. Worker chop and the Work Boat will be done in 2 turns.


http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0078.jpg


Edit: I suppose we should also discuss the next build in Sirius. I presume that will be settler for the City C site?

AlphaShard
May 10, 2010, 12:56 PM
I put some Techs in a que if you check the Tech chart you can see which ones. I believe I have it set to what has been the concensus with everyone. I did it before the current turn had begun. I believe settler will be next since we'll be pop 4 by the time the WB is done. I think the Chop is timed to speed up the Settler as well. So everything seems on schedule to me. Soon we will conquer the world, one step at a time. :devil:

Lord Parkin
May 10, 2010, 04:37 PM
Yep... techs: Animal Husbandry -> Writing
Builds: Work Boat -> Settler

I would also have switched my vote in the event of a last-minute tie.

pindicator
May 10, 2010, 10:01 PM
I never stated much of a preference for chopping. At least, not that I can recall. I just wanted :whip:

I think I was the chopping enthusiast. Still am :D
Although I agree that in principal that Maths would be a benefit to us with all these island forests, the idea of not chopping now and slowing down our settler & library seems a little counter-productive. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. (Where's the smiley for that saying!?)

azzaman333
May 10, 2010, 10:23 PM
Do we have plans to road 1E of the capital by the turn the settler is built?

champinoman
May 10, 2010, 10:30 PM
Do we have plans to road 1E of the capital by the turn the settler is built?

Not currently because that road would delay the chop that finishes the settler by a turn thus eliminating the advantage of the road.

And doing road afterwards means the 3rd chop is in time to finish library faster. <-- need verification.

azzaman333
May 10, 2010, 10:37 PM
Didn't we pre-build the road on that tile earlier? Building it would save 1 turn in the movement of the settler.

champinoman
May 10, 2010, 10:45 PM
Didn't we pre-build the road on that tile earlier? Building it would save 1 turn in the movement of the settler.

Yes, but in the current plan the worker is always finishing a chop -> 1 turn moving onto forest -> starting chop. So even finishing the road in a 1 movement turn will mean the worker doesn't end his turn on a forest to start chopping the next turn resulting in a delay of 1 turn for the planned chops.

Feel free to have a play and see if there is a better result. I'm just voicing my train of thought.

azzaman333
May 10, 2010, 11:05 PM
Well we have the turn that the settler is built before we move him to road it as well.

champinoman
May 10, 2010, 11:11 PM
True. Maybe the forested hill 2W of the capital is the best tile for our 2nd chop? Its the only one in range of 1st chop that is 1 tile from the tile that needs roading.

Irgy
May 10, 2010, 11:20 PM
So, we would get the settler in place a turn earlier, but may lose a turn on the library. Actually, given that we've gone AH first, the library is delayed by 2 or 3 turns from that, so I can't see why we wouldn't have a spare turn to build the road.

It makes me think though, if people are going to go to the trouble of making detailed micro plans a fair few turns into the future, then we should put them somewhere easy to find. I'm thinking we create a thread with the first post edited to always contain the current best-guess micro plan. It would make it easier to keep track of things like what we're discussing now, but also make it easier for someone playing the turn to check what they're going to do. If someone else thinks it's a good idea, I'm happy to look after editing it.

azzaman333
May 10, 2010, 11:21 PM
True. Maybe the forested hill 2W of the capital is the best tile for our 2nd chop? Its the only one in range of 1st chop that is 1 tile from the tile that needs roading.

I would definitely say so. Then, after the 2nd chop, finish the road 1E of the capital, and chop another of the souther forests.

Irgy
May 10, 2010, 11:22 PM
True. Maybe the forested hill 2W of the capital is the best tile for our 2nd chop? Its the only one in range of 1st chop that is 1 tile from the tile that needs roading.

It's also the only one in range that's not either the silk or outside the BFC, so I can't imagine we'd go with anything else. This is consistent with:

I'd imagined we would just chop *, 6, then 7/8. Afterward that the worker has other things to do like road the gold and improve the gold in the 'C' city.
(See post 633 for the image that these numbers refer to).

Lord Parkin
May 10, 2010, 11:42 PM
Do we have plans to road 1E of the capital by the turn the settler is built?
I would definitely say so. Then, after the 2nd chop, finish the road 1E of the capital, and chop another of the souther forests.
It's going to be quite difficult to road 1E of the capital, given that it's a coastal tile. :lol: Now, 1W on the other hand... ;)

Sorry, I couldn't resist when you made the same mistake twice in a row. :p

champinoman
May 10, 2010, 11:45 PM
Ahh crap. And to think I didn't pick that up. Its because us Aussies *really* want to head east to the great land in that direction. :P

Lord Parkin
May 10, 2010, 11:48 PM
Ahh crap. And to think I didn't pick that up. Its because us Aussies *really* want to head east to the great land in that direction. :P
No problem, us Kiwis often have similar desires. :p

[Must... Invade... Australia...] :scan:

azzaman333
May 10, 2010, 11:55 PM
It's going to be quite difficult to road 1E of the capital, given that it's a coastal tile. :lol: Now, 1W on the other hand... ;)

Sorry, I couldn't resist when you made the same mistake twice in a row. :p

I always get east and west confused...

champinoman
May 11, 2010, 12:01 AM
Back to Irgy's idea. I think it would be a good idea to have a thread relating to exact micro. Discussion can happen in here but we need a clear place for the current micro to be displayed. The main thing though is that whoever creates the thread can constantly update it (the first post) to contain the current plan.

And on that note we need to plan a bit further ahead. Anyone want to start planning up until the 2nd settler is built? We haven't discussed plans for the 2nd city yet and future plans for the capital (more exact than generalisations). If someone wants to make a plan we can then look at it and see how to improve it.

Trystero
May 11, 2010, 12:56 AM
Back to Irgy's idea. I think it would be a good idea to have a thread relating to exact micro. Discussion can happen in here but we need a clear place for the current micro to be displayed. The main thing though is that whoever creates the thread can constantly update it (the first post) to contain the current plan.

And on that note we need to plan a bit further ahead. Anyone want to start planning up until the 2nd settler is built? We haven't discussed plans for the 2nd city yet and future plans for the capital (more exact than generalisations). If someone wants to make a plan we can then look at it and see how to improve it.

I second (third?) Irgy's/champinoman's suggestion. having a micro thread that could be referred to when playing a turn or playing a test game is a great idea.

WRT the 2nd city: I think we might want to build a WB first, allowing growth, while Lord Parkin (the worker) improves it's gold mine. We probably will want to build a second worker relatively soon, but I'm not sure when without doing the micro. That worker could improve tiles on the home island and/or then be moved to the other island.

I see the immediate building aims in Sirius as: 1. 2nd Settler/2. Library/3. Warrior (?)
4. Galley/3rd Settler/2nd Worker

I am not sure what order to build the galley/settler/worker. I think the warrior was built in one turn with chop overflow in my older micro plan, which may no longer be relevant.

champinoman
May 11, 2010, 01:06 AM
I think a Granary needs to be built asap in 2nd city (name yet?) if we plan to start whipping over there. That opens a can of worms however because we are not in slavery yet :P

azzaman333
May 11, 2010, 01:21 AM
Revolt to slavery while the settler is moving to the planned city site.

Trystero
May 11, 2010, 01:26 AM
I think a Granary needs to be built asap in 2nd city (name yet?) if we plan to start whipping over there. That opens a can of worms however because we are not in slavery yet :P

Canopus is the name we were going to go with if we are still following the plan in this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=358448) thread.

I forgot we've researched Pottery. :) I think we might still want to build the the WB first to get the fish hooked up for growth. Unless the neighboring island isn't that big and the exploring WB can get back soon. I don't think we should plan on that, though.

Revolt to slavery while the settler is moving to the planned city site.

That seems reasonable.

Lord Parkin
May 11, 2010, 03:46 AM
Don't forget a second exploring Work Boat would be good too (for the opposite direction than we send the first one).

I'll look at working out a specific plan in a few days, when I have a decent amount of spare time.

pindicator
May 11, 2010, 09:09 AM
Did we want the 2nd workboat before the first settler, before the library, or after both? (I'm assuming the answer is "after both")

champinoman
May 11, 2010, 09:57 AM
Off the top of my head I think there is a couple of turns between the Settler finishing and Writing completing to squeeze a WB into. I don't think it gets completed quick enough though so it gets finished after the Library.

Irgy
May 11, 2010, 05:03 PM
That gap might be a good time to build a happiness warrior too.

Lord Parkin
May 11, 2010, 07:01 PM
Did we want the 2nd workboat before the first settler, before the library, or after both? (I'm assuming the answer is "after both")
By 2nd workboat I presume you mean the one after the one we're currently producing? It gets a bit confusing because we've already produced 2 Work Boats, and are presently building our 3rd.

Off the top of my head I think there is a couple of turns between the Settler finishing and Writing completing to squeeze a WB into. I don't think it gets completed quick enough though so it gets finished after the Library.
I'm pretty sure there is no gap between finishing the Settler and finishing Writing. Or maybe that was in my original plan, without Animal Husbandry.

pindicator
May 11, 2010, 11:10 PM
By 2nd workboat I presume you mean the one after the one we're currently producing? It gets a bit confusing because we've already produced 2 Work Boats, and are presently building our 3rd.

Sorry, I meant exploratory work boats. In my mind we're working on our first wb and the second is the second wb is the one I had a question on.

If we do have a gap, I'd prefer the 2nd exploring wb out before we do a warrior. We still won't need happiness for a while.

champinoman
May 11, 2010, 11:16 PM
That gap might be a good time to build a happiness warrior too.
Is it needed? Can someone check and see if our island is fogbusted after the 2nd cities first border pop?

If so then the existing warrior can be used in capital as happiness warrior.

By 2nd workboat I presume you mean the one after the one we're currently producing? It gets a bit confusing because we've already produced 2 Work Boats, and are presently building our 3rd.
Yeah, I presume it was referring to 2ns exploratory workboat.

I'm pretty sure there is no gap between finishing the Settler and finishing Writing. Or maybe that was in my original plan, without Animal Husbandry.
I believe that was the original. The 3 turn delay on getting writing is the reason for the discussion between tech'ing AH or not. Its a nice opportunity to get something partially built in there so its quicker to complete after the Library.

Irgy
May 11, 2010, 11:40 PM
It makes me think though, if people are going to go to the trouble of making detailed micro plans a fair few turns into the future, then we should put them somewhere easy to find. I'm thinking we create a thread with the first post edited to always contain the current best-guess micro plan. It would make it easier to keep track of things like what we're discussing now, but also make it easier for someone playing the turn to check what they're going to do. If someone else thinks it's a good idea, I'm happy to look after editing it.

Only one person said yes, but no-one said no. No-one else volunteered to set it up, so I've gone ahead and done it:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9181078

Irgy
May 11, 2010, 11:48 PM
Ok, so someone correct me if I'm wrong, but:
Library = 90 hammers
We are working 3 gold + 3 gold + 2 city = 8 hammers, x2 (for creative) = 16 hammers per turn on library.
One chop provides 20x2=40 hammers.
Three turns after writing then we'll have 40 + 3x16 = 88 hammers.
Therefore, a single overflow hammer (doubled to 2 hammers by creative) will result in the library a turn earlier.
So, for that reason alone, we want to build something (I expect a warrior is then the only option) that completes (and overflows at least one hammer) on the turn we discover Writing, rather than switching from building something else that turn and getting no overflow. This will get the library a turn earlier.

Alternatively, we can grow to size 5 and work silk for a turn. Someone needs to check whether we grow to size 5 before the library or not (without moving off the gold or anything silly like that), from what I understood though we don't.

Lord Parkin
May 12, 2010, 12:06 AM
Looks like a good argument to me. And yes, we should have the Library prior to growing to size 5. I'll try to test it out tomorrow.

champinoman
May 12, 2010, 12:25 AM
Library is finished a few turns before we grow to size 5 so there is no concern there.

I ran through the current plan in a test game that game be found here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9181078

But here are the main notes:
- Writing completes on turn 37
- Settler finishes on turn 35
- City 2 on turn 38 (1 earlier than expected due to road)
- Library finished on turn 40 (1 earlier than expected due to warrior overflow suggestion from Irgy above)

EDIT: Keep discussion on the plan in here and try to keep that other thread as a direct reference thread.

Trystero
May 12, 2010, 01:04 AM
From the micro thread:

Here are 2 save files for everyones use.

The first is an exact replica of our current game at turn 28.

And the 2nd is a run through of the micro listed above to turn 40. Please note that the run through has:
- Exploratory WB sitting idle in City since it was built.
- Worker (Lord Parkin) sitting idle after doing nothing in turn 39.

I just wanted to list those 2 things so people don't use it as a base to go off. Everything else is accurate though.

WRT the worker: We probably want him to mine the gold in the 2nd city (Canopus) ASAP. Having said that, perhaps he should first move to 1W to the gold mine and build the road to connect it to Sirius, since he is already adjacent to that tile? The extra :) would let us send the warrior with the 2nd settler we built to explore the neighboring island (or perhaps on his own if we build a galley first).

I am still in favor of Sailing after Writing. Not only can we build a galley, it will instantly connect Sirius and Canopus without a road.

champinoman
May 12, 2010, 01:07 AM
Current questions:
* Are we all agreed on Sailing after Writing?
* Are we agreed on pfh and workboat for Canopus (and the name for that matter)?
* I've suggested Lord Parkin moves to the gold near city 'C' from turn 39, but this isn't agreed yet.

Sailing seems like a good tech that not only allows us that critical Galley but also gives us a connection between our 2 cities so we can delay the road.

Seems like a good plan for the city. The quicker we can get the fish worked the better for whipping. Which reminds me, we didn't include revolt on the plan.

If Lord Parkin moves away from Sirius then we have to waste turns to get him back to hook up the gold before Sirius hits pop6 which isn't far away. I'd suggest getting the road built on the hill before heading towards Canopus(?)

champinoman
May 12, 2010, 01:08 AM
lol Trystero, you beat me this time.

My only worry is that if we get Sirius to pop6 then that warrior can't head off with the settler due to happiness cap. I think the original Warrior needs to be on fogbusting duty until the 2nd cities 2nd border pop.

Trystero
May 12, 2010, 01:20 AM
Seems like a good plan for the city. The quicker we can get the fish worked the better for whipping. Which reminds me, we didn't include revolt on the plan.


If we revolt to Slavery on turn 36, it delays finishing the Warrior and Writing by one turn, but doesn't screw the timing up.

champinoman
May 12, 2010, 01:23 AM
Yeah, but it doesn't look as nice :P

Trystero
May 12, 2010, 02:53 AM
I played around with some hypotheticals, based on champinoman's micro (here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9181261&postcount=11)), assuming that we revolt to Slavery on turn 36 when the Settler is in transit to the Canopus site.

Assumptions for this scenario:
-We research Sailing after Writing, and then tech toward Monarchy (as suggested by azzaman originally).
-We build a 2nd exploratory (4th total) WB in Sirius after the Library.
-Canopus' first build is a WB for one of the fish tiles.
-We will want a Granary in Canopus relatively soon to aid whipping.

The scenario:

36:
* Set Lord Parkin to chop
* REVOLT to Slavery
37: No Action
38:
* Writing complete. Set research to Sailing
* Switch build to Library.
* Warrior complete. Garrisons Sirius
* Found Canopus at city site 'C'.
* Canopus works a Flood Plain and builds a WB
* Lord Parkin's chop complete.
39: Lord Parkin moves 1W to Gold Hill
40: Worker (Lord Parkin) starts Road
41:
*Library complete, start WB
*Road complete, Gold connected to Sirius.
42: Lord Parkin moves to Gold Hill 1SE of Canopus (2 turns to move).
43:
*Sailing complete, start Mysticism
*Sirius grows to pop 5, works 2 Fish, 2 Gold Hills, Forested Silk tiles.
*Borders of Canopus expand
*Fog-busting Warrior (Ceres?) moves to Sirius (3 turns)
44:
*Canopus grows to pop 2.
*Whip WB in Canopus > overflow hammers to Granary
*Lord Parkin starts mining Gold Hill SE of Canopus.
45:
*WB done in Sirius start Galley
*WB done in Canopus, moves to Fish
*Mysticism complete, start Meditation.
46: WB improves Fish tile in Canopus, Canopus switches to working that tile.
47:
*Finish Meditation, Start Priesthood.
*Gold mine done in Canopus
48: Worker free to move to new tile
49:
*Priesthood done, start Monarchy
*Canopus grows to pop 2, works Fish and Gold Hill
50: No Action? (Worker?)
51:
*Sirius grow to pop 6, runs Scientist
*Galley done in Sirius, start Settler?
(Monarchy will be done on turn 58)

One benefit of this plan is that the galley is completed on the same turn Sirius grows to the happy cap. We could then build a Settler or additional Worker to colonize the neighboring island so as to prevent us growing past the cap until we've researched Monarchy and have HR available. We could also send a Warrior by the galley to the neighboring island to scout for city sites while the Settler is being built. Potentially, we could discover Buddhism as well to help with happiness. On the other hand, we might want to know if we have Iron available sooner than post-Monarchy.

I don't know if I favor this approach yet. We certainly would benefit from information from exploring WBs. I just thought I would play this out and see how it looked.

champinoman
May 12, 2010, 06:13 AM
assuming that we whip on turn 36 when the Settler is in transit to the Canopus site.

Change that to revolt and we have a party :P I saw it and thought we were whipping in the capital for a second.

Trystero
May 12, 2010, 10:21 AM
Change that to revolt and we have a party :P I saw it and thought we were whipping in the capital for a second.

Whoops! Yes, that's what I meant. :crazyeye: It's changed now.

Trystero
May 12, 2010, 10:34 AM
I was thinking some more about a post-Sailing Monarchy beeline. One other compelling reason to raise our happy cap now rather than pursue say IW or Math: Sirius has 4 riverside grassland tiles (+1C). Since we are Financial, if we build a cottage on those tiles we automatically generate +3C on each. So, I reason we would want to be able work those tiles (and run scientists) as soon as possible. Running HR seems like the easiest way to get to 10-12 :) in the short term.

This is not to say locating a strategic resource like Iron isn't also important, but I think being on an island gives us the luxury of delaying a military buildup somewhat.

Edit: An argument against this approach:

We need to REX, not work cottages right now. Sirius will be busy building Settlers and Workers, and thus won't grow very much anyway. The whip can be used to deal with happiness issues. Also, at pop 6 we would be at the health, as well as happiness, cap. While unhealthiness isn't as detrimental as unhappiness, it is still unlikely we'd get Sirius to pop 10-12 in the short term.

AlphaShard
May 12, 2010, 11:53 AM
I mentioned that about the Cottages on the rivers and no one seemed to like it at all.

Trystero
May 12, 2010, 01:24 PM
I mentioned that about the Cottages on the rivers and no one seemed to like it at all.

I don't remember that discussion, but perhaps people thought cottages were premature at the time? Since we are Financial, cottages would seem like a good thing to build and develop. With all those riverside grasslands and the gold mines, Sirius looks to be a good commerce/research capital. Even if we prioritize expansion, we need to pay for it somehow.

AlphaShard
May 12, 2010, 01:45 PM
I don't remember that discussion, but perhaps people thought cottages were premature at the time? Since we are Financial, cottages would seem like a good thing to build and develop. With all those riverside grasslands and the gold mines, Sirius looks to be a good commerce/research capital. Even if we prioritize expansion, we need to pay for it somehow.

That's exactly what I was thinking and saying but Azzaman felt that after the Gold mines we should focus on other things. The worker I mean anyways, we will need another worker for this island. No reason we shouldn't follow the 1.5 rule.

Trystero
May 12, 2010, 02:26 PM
Well, there is no point in building cottages (except empty worker turns) until we can actually work them, I suppose was his point. This gets back to the happiness/health issue I raised above.

We could farm the grasslands to run more specialists, I suppose. But that requires Caste System and still runs into the :) issue.

Irgy
May 12, 2010, 05:51 PM
I'm thinking the gold we connect to Sirius for happiness could end up being the one near Canopus. If we build a road on the gold square next to Canopus, and we've researched Sailing, then we get access to that gold in the capital, right?

That could save us from either wasting worker turns walking back and forth, or delaying the Canopus gold. The worker has much more to do at Canopus than Sirius, as we're at our happy cap with 2 fish 2 gold and 2 scientists anyway.

AlphaShard
May 12, 2010, 06:20 PM
It may even be time to get a religon if we make our way to monarchy after sailing were bound to get one of them since no one else has gotten a religon. Am I right in thinking we have the tech edge right now by being number one in GNP?

AlphaShard
May 12, 2010, 07:16 PM
Turn 29 - 2840 BC

Worker finished chop but is still red so can't do anything. Ended turn.


http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=252367&stc=1&d=1273709748



http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=252366&stc=1&d=1273709748

Trystero
May 12, 2010, 07:29 PM
I'm thinking the gold we connect to Sirius for happiness could end up being the one near Canopus. If we build a road on the gold square next to Canopus, and we've researched Sailing, then we get access to that gold in the capital, right?

That could save us from either wasting worker turns walking back and forth, or delaying the Canopus gold. The worker has much more to do at Canopus than Sirius, as we're at our happy cap with 2 fish 2 gold and 2 scientists anyway.

I haven't played this out, but not building the road on the gold hill W of Sirius means the gold mine in Canopus would be completed about 2 turns earlier (turn 45), correct? He'd still have to build the road (1 turn?). That means the gold in Canopus would be hooked up no sooner than turn 46. In the plan I laid out Sirius would grow to pop 5 on turn 43, so we'd have happiness issues for a few turns, unless we ran a scientist instead of working the Forested Silk, or moved the warrior to Sirius. I decided to work the Silk to get to pop 6 as soon as possible, but perhaps that's sub-optimal. As I said, the micro I laid out wasn't necessariy the best plan possible, just a starting point for discussions.

It may even be time to get a religon if we make our way to monarchy after sailing were bound to get one of them since no one else has gotten a religon. Am I right in thinking we have the tech edge right now by being number one in GNP?

I don't know that getting a religion is a sure thing in the plan I presented, since Buddhism is the only one that would be an option. It does, however, lie on the shortest path to Monarchy, so someone else with similar ideas might get there first.

AlphaShard
May 12, 2010, 08:01 PM
Ah I though Mono was on the path as well. No one has gotten it yet though so it is still up in the air.

pindicator
May 12, 2010, 08:58 PM
i started to write something in the micro thread, then when i came to post it here i see the discussion has moved beyond me... going to go run and then have a clear read, then will post thoughts. Lots of good stuff today!

Irgy
May 12, 2010, 09:19 PM
I haven't played this out, but not building the road on the gold hill W of Sirius means the gold mine in Canopus would be completed about 2 turns earlier (turn 45), correct? He'd still have to build the road (1 turn?). That means the gold in Canopus would be hooked up no sooner than turn 46. In the plan I laid out Sirius would grow to pop 5 on turn 43, so we'd have happiness issues for a few turns, unless we ran a scientist instead of working the Forested Silk, or moved the warrior to Sirius. I decided to work the Silk to get to pop 6 as soon as possible, but perhaps that's sub-optimal. As I said, the micro I laid out wasn't necessariy the best plan possible, just a starting point for discussions.

The current plan is to build a warrior for the sake of an overflow hammer to save a turn on the library. The upshot of that is that we don't need the gold connected until 6 population, which should be plenty of time even working the silk. I think the silk is a good idea, as it will double our growth rate, giving an extra turn of the second scientist for each turn of the first scientist we miss. That works out as just plain better than working a scientist.


Ah I though Mono was on the path as well. No one has gotten it yet though so it is still up in the air.

Having had a better look at the tech tree, Mono is actually a huge detour. It requires Masonry, which we have no need for, and Monotheism is itself twice as expensive as the alternative Priesthood. In fact, even if we get Monotheism, Priesthood is so cheap that you save almost as many beakers of Monarchy from the pre-requisite bonus of Priesthood as Priesthood actually costs in the first place, so you might as well research it anyway. So Monotheism isn't really on the path to Monarchy at all.

So, we should only go after Monotheism if we either genuinely want and genuinely expect to get the religeon, or we really want to use OR (which we won't be even able to use unless we get a religeon anyway).

Between AH, Writing and Sailing I really don't expect to get any of the early 3 religeons.

Trystero
May 12, 2010, 09:56 PM
The current plan is to build a warrior for the sake of an overflow hammer to save a turn on the library. The upshot of that is that we don't need the gold connected until 6 population, which should be plenty of time even working the silk. I think the silk is a good idea, as it will double our growth rate, giving an extra turn of the second scientist for each turn of the first scientist we miss. That works out as just plain better than working a scientist.

Crud. The warrior was so early in the plan, I forgot I worked that into the proposal. I haven't been on top of things today. :blush: I guess mining the gold in Canopus makes more sense than hooking it up near Sirius right now. And yes, without doing the math, my thinking was get to a size where we could run 2 scientists faster. On the other hand, we might want to run one Scientist and work the Silk tile at size 6 to get Settlers or Workers out faster. I'd have to playtest to see which is more desirable.


Between AH, Writing and Sailing I really don't expect to get any of the early 3 religeons.

Agreed. It's possible we could get one if we tried, since human players don't emphasize religion to the same extent as the AI, but if one was going to go first it would probably be from Meditation.

pindicator
May 12, 2010, 10:53 PM
Crud. The warrior was so early in the plan, I forgot I worked that into the proposal. I haven't been on top of things today. :blush: I guess mining the gold in Canopus makes more sense than hooking it up near Sirius right now.

Might we be able to have our cake and eat it too? the gold mine near canopus is on a river; once we get sailing, won't it hook up automatically?

Regarding religion... how hard would it be to have our (2nd? 3rd?) great scientist pop Philosophy ? I think that dovetails nicely with our current plans: it works with our cheap libraries, it coincides well with the cheapest techpath to Monarchy (Meditation being a pre-req for Philosophy) and wanting Math.

But I think the best plan for religion is to take it if its available... planning for it and relying on it would put us in a bind if someone beat us in the end.

Lord Parkin
May 13, 2010, 01:02 AM
I take it by the discussion that someone got Hinduism? Or has that not gone yet? I haven't been following particularly closely the last couple of days.

Trystero
May 13, 2010, 01:12 AM
Might we be able to have our cake and eat it too? the gold mine near canopus is on a river; once we get sailing, won't it hook up automatically?

You're right! I hadn't noticed that before. Nice catch, pindicator. That definitely favors improving the gold mine in Canopus first. I playtested that variation: I started from turn 39 of my last test game (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9181403&postcount=687):

39: Lord Parkin moves to Canopus Gold Hill (3 turns)
40: No Action
41: Library complete, start WB
42: Lord Parkin mines Gold Hill 1SE of Canopus.
43:
*Sailing complete, start Mysticism
*Sirius grows to pop 5, works 2 Fish, 2 Gold Hills, Forested Silk tiles.
*Borders of Canopus expand
*Fog-busting Warrior (Ceres) moves to Sirius (3 turns)
44:
*Canopus grows to pop 2.
*Whip WB in Canopus > overflow hammers to Granary
45:
*WB done in Sirius start Galley
*WB done in Canopus, moves to Fish
*Mysticism complete, start Meditation.
46:
*WB improves Fish tile in Canopus, Canopus switches to working that tile.
*Gold mine done in Canopus and connected by river. Lord Parkin moves 1N to chop.
47:
*Finish Meditation, Start Priesthood.
*Lord Parkin starts chop.
48: No Action
49:
*Priesthood done, start Monarchy
*Canopus grows to pop 2, works Fish and Gold Hill
*Chop done. Lord Parkin free to move
50: No Action? (Worker?)
51:
*Granary done in Canopus, start next build.
*Galley done in Sirius, start Settler?
*Sirius grow to pop 6, runs Scientist + Silk (Settler in 8 turns).
(Monarchy will be done on turn 57)

Building the gold mine in Canopus without hooking up the gold in Sirius gets us Monarchy 1 turn sooner than in the scenario where we build the road on the gold in Sirius first. Regardless of whether we run one or two Scientists after Sirius reaches size 6, Monarchy is researched on turn 57, so I would work the Silk + 1 Scientist to get the Settler out faster.

I haven't checked running a Scientist in Sirius from the time we reach size 5. I might try that next.

EDIT: I checked running the Scientist from the time we reach size 5. It doesn't change the timing of researching Monarchy or building the Galley in Sirius. However when the Galley is done, Sirius is still 7 turns from size 6, and the food bar is half full. Building a Settler at that point would take 10 turns (rather than the 8 above).

Trystero
May 13, 2010, 01:14 AM
I take it by the discussion that someone got Hinduism? Or has that not gone yet? I haven't been following particularly closely the last couple of days.

No, not yet. We are just discussing beelining Monarchy (through Meditation) after Sailing, and whether we are likely to pick up a religion that way as a bonus.

Edit: Also, I haven't been following the main forum much, but I think (by looking at the server site) MAVERICKS skipped the last turn. I'm not sure if that means anything.

Irgy
May 13, 2010, 02:04 AM
Might we be able to have our cake and eat it too? the gold mine near canopus is on a river; once we get sailing, won't it hook up automatically?

Does this really work? The river doesn't connect to any cities, just the ocean. I never realised that was good enough. It sounds like Trystero has confirmed this in his test game though?

I take it by the discussion that someone got Hinduism? Or has that not gone yet? I haven't been following particularly closely the last couple of days.

Not that I've seen. Someone should definately mention that in the turn tracking thread if it happens on a turn they play. Same for any wonders built.

azzaman333
May 13, 2010, 02:40 AM
I don't know that getting a religion is a sure thing in the plan I presented, since Buddhism is the only one that would be an option. It does, however, lie on the shortest path to Monarchy, so someone else with similar ideas might get there first.

We can replace Meditation with Polytheism if Buddhism has been founded and Hinduism hasn't, but the religion wouldn't be the reason we're going through that path. Just a nice bonus.

azzaman333
May 13, 2010, 02:41 AM
Does this really work? The river doesn't connect to any cities, just the ocean. I never realised that was good enough. It sounds like Trystero has confirmed this in his test game though?

It's good enough if we have Sailing.

Lord Parkin
May 13, 2010, 04:39 AM
Does this really work? The river doesn't connect to any cities, just the ocean. I never realised that was good enough. It sounds like Trystero has confirmed this in his test game though?
If you have Sailing, and a river emptying into a coast tile inside your territory, then the game treats the river-coast connection like a completed trade network. So yes, the Gold should be hooked up by this method.

AlphaShard
May 13, 2010, 05:46 AM
We can replace Meditation with Polytheism if Buddhism has been founded and Hinduism hasn't, but the religion wouldn't be the reason we're going through that path. Just a nice bonus.


That's really all I was saying at this point, since were heading toward Monarchy soon. Honestly if the Indians or Mayans were thinking of Monarchy they should have gotten the Poly/Meditation already. I think I'd be embarresed if I was them and they lost out on early religons.

I mean why else choose Ghandi? I was geniunly surprised to see that actually.

I've checked the Event Log each time and I've never seen any wonders or Religons listed yet. It still charts all our techs we've gotten though.

azzaman333
May 13, 2010, 07:32 AM
For the traits and fast workers. Really, early religion isn't all that flash.

GoSkins
May 13, 2010, 08:10 AM
For the traits and fast workers. Really, early religion isn't all that flash.

I've had games where an early religion was very powerful...plus apostolic palace...of course that was on single player.

For our situation, I think that early religion could be a nice bonus on the way to Monarchy, but we shouldnt go out of the way for it.

pindicator
May 13, 2010, 09:27 AM
Nice work, trsytero. I'm a little concerned about the lack of workers. For instance, once Canopus hits size 2, what are the thoughts of swapping to a worker? Or even doing so right after whipping the WB, using the overflow from the whip? Especially once we hit monarchy and the happiness cap becomes less of an issue, we are going to want to be growing onto improved tiles.

champinoman
May 13, 2010, 09:46 AM
Nice reading through all the posts after being away for 1 day. That'll teach me!

The Gold on the river is a nice pickup that will save us a few turns.

A query I have from the plan listed above is that it mentions moving the Warrior back to Sirius once Canopus pops its border. Is the island fully fog busted? The tile I am referring to is 2N 2E of current warrior spawn bust location. I think we need our current fogbusting warrior to stay in proximity of that tile until Canopus pops for the 2nd time.

Trystero
May 13, 2010, 04:06 PM
For our situation, I think that early religion could be a nice bonus on the way to Monarchy, but we shouldnt go out of the way for it.

Yes, exactly. Religion isn't the goal here, Monarchy is.

That said, I think we should also have some discussion of alternate post-Sailing research paths. I really think Monarchy is the way to go, as I've argued before: we really want to grow Sirius to take advantage of the Financial trait and run Scientists, but we should look at all options.

Nice work, trsytero. I'm a little concerned about the lack of workers. For instance, once Canopus hits size 2, what are the thoughts of swapping to a worker? Or even doing so right after whipping the WB, using the overflow from the whip? Especially once we hit monarchy and the happiness cap becomes less of an issue, we are going to want to be growing onto improved tiles.

I should say that the builds in Canopus in my test game were really placeholders. Other approaches might make more sense. I think WB first makes sense because we need to improve the Fish ASAP. I picked Granary as the second build, since we'll need it if we are going to whip Canopus for production (which is likely), and I wanted to grow Canopus to size 2 to work the Gold mine. If we don't work that Gold, Monarchy will take 1 turn longer to research, so we need to grow back to 2 ASAP after whipping.

I think Sirius would be the best place to build Workers/Settlers, since it is already near it's happy cap. But we should play around with builds and see what works best when we have 2 cities up and running.

EDIT: After giving this some thought, perhaps it is better to avoid whipping the WB. We can't whip until size 2, which was my stated goal to work the Gold, so if we don't whip then we can work the Gold mine sooner. That could speed up our research, and the worker chop could go into the WB. I'll need to play test and see what effect this would have on our Monarchy research.


A query I have from the plan listed above is that it mentions moving the Warrior back to Sirius once Canopus pops its border. Is the island fully fog busted? The tile I am referring to is 2N 2E of current warrior spawn bust location. I think we need our current fogbusting warrior to stay in proximity of that tile until Canopus pops for the 2nd time.

Perhaps I misunderstood when the island would be completely fog-busted by culture. I thought it was when Canopus popped to it's BFC. The warrior moves to garrison Sirius so that the 2nd warrior can leave on the galley. If he has to stay on the Silk tile for fog-busting, we can insert a Warrior in the build queue in Sirius prior to that last Settler. I think the warrior would take more than 2 turns to build at that point, so we wouldn't grow past the happy cap in that time.

Trystero
May 13, 2010, 04:13 PM
Does this really work? The river doesn't connect to any cities, just the ocean. I never realised that was good enough. It sounds like Trystero has confirmed this in his test game though?

If you have Sailing, and a river emptying into a coast tile inside your territory, then the game treats the river-coast connection like a completed trade network. So yes, the Gold should be hooked up by this method.

I can confirm that this really does work in the test game.

Lord Parkin
May 13, 2010, 06:50 PM
Yes, exactly. Religion isn't the goal here, Monarchy is.

That said, I think we should also have some discussion of alternate post-Sailing research paths. I really think Monarchy is the way to go, as I've argued before: we really want to grow Sirius to take advantage of the Financial trait and run Scientists, but we should look at all options.
Might it even be worth considering going Mysticism-Meditation prior to Sailing? Depends how much we value the religion I guess. It's by no means vital, but it's certainly a nice little bonus to have.

The other main options include Mathematics and Alphabet (assuming we've met someone). Iron Working could also be a possibility, if we don't find Horses.

EDIT: After giving this some thought, perhaps it is better to avoid whipping the WB. We can't whip until size 2, which was my stated goal to work the Gold, so if we don't whip then we can work the Gold mine sooner. That could speed up our research, and the worker chop could go into the WB. I'll need to play test and see what effect this would have on our Monarchy research.
That's my thinking. Far better to build a Worker in the 2nd city at size 2 (working two Fish) or size 3 (working 2 Fish + the river-Gold), rather than building it at size 1. I'm dubious about the benefits of whipping our second city at size 3 or below, because it has 3 awesome tiles.

Trystero
May 13, 2010, 08:49 PM
Might it even be worth considering going Mysticism-Meditation prior to Sailing? Depends how much we value the religion I guess. It's by no means vital, but it's certainly a nice little bonus to have.

That's an interesting idea. In the test game, there are 2 turns after Sailing is complete where Sirius is building the 2nd exploring WB, before it starts the galley. If we need the fog-busting warrior to stay put, we would have to build another warrior (for exploration) anyway after the galley. I estimate each of those techs will take about 2 turns to research at that point. That means that if we put the warrior before the galley, we could tech Mysticism + Meditation before we'd need Sailing, and that wouldn't delay the exploring warrior leaving on the galley. I will try that in my test game and let you know if that actually works.

That's my thinking. Far better to build a Worker in the 2nd city at size 2 (working two Fish) or size 3 (working 2 Fish + the river-Gold), rather than building it at size 1. I'm dubious about the benefits of whipping our second city at size 3 or below, because it has 3 awesome tiles.

We'd need another WB to work both Fish, and I wouldn't want to do that before Monarchy, so we maximize our tech rate by working Fish + Gold. But perhaps the first to builds in Canopus should be WBs?

pindicator
May 13, 2010, 09:12 PM
That's an interesting idea. In the test game, there are 2 turns after Sailing is complete where Sirius is building the 2nd exploring WB, before it starts the galley. If we need the fog-busting warrior to stay put, we would have to build another warrior (for exploration) anyway after the galley. I estimate each of those techs will take about 2 turns to research at that point. That means that if we put the warrior before the galley, we could tech Mysticism + Meditation before we'd need Sailing, and that wouldn't delay the exploring warrior leaving on the galley. I will try that in my test game and let you know if that actually works.

If so, I think we should go for it. :thumbsup:


We'd need another WB to work both Fish, and I wouldn't want to do that before Monarchy, so we maximize our tech rate by working Fish + Gold. But perhaps the first to builds in Canopus should be WBs?

Off the top of my head, what about...

Size 1, work flood plain and start WB
At size 2, work gold min + flood plain
WB finishes, start a worker using fish & gold
Worker finishes, build another WB

Trystero
May 13, 2010, 11:37 PM
OK - I ran through the Monarchy beeline again incorporating the changes discussed by LP, champinoman, and myself since the last test game. Namely:

1. Delay researching Sailing until after Mysticism > Meditation
2. Avoid whipping the WB in Canopus and work the Gold mine ASAP
3. Build an exploring Warrior in Sirius after the 2nd exploring WB.
4. Build a worker (partially chopped) in Canopus after the WB.

Here's the result:

29: Lord Parkin chop complete.
30:
* Grow to 4, work fish, fish, gold, gold.
* Workboat complete. Workboat explores in a clockwise direction, heading around the northern tip of the land we can see to the east.
* Set production to Settler.
* Move Lord Parkin SW-SW (11) to grass forest hill
31: Set Lord Parkin to chop.
32: No action
33:
* Animal Handling research complete. Set research to Writing.
* Lord Parkin chop complete.
34: Lord Parkin completes already begun road 1W of Sirius
35:
* Lord Parkin moves S (2) to grassland forest.
* Settler complete. Move settler to city site 'C', taking advantage of the road.
* Sirius builds warrior
36:
* Set Lord Parkin to chop
* REVOLT to Slavery
37: No Action
38:
* Writing complete. Set research to Mysticism
* Switch build to Library.
* Warrior complete. Garrisons Sirius
* Found Canopus at city site 'C'.
* Canopus works a Flood Plain and builds a WB
* Lord Parkin's chop complete.
39: Lord Parkin moves to Canopus Gold Hill (3 turns)
40: No Action
41:
*Library complete, start WB
*Mysticism complete, start Meditation.
42: Lord Parkin mines Gold Hill 1SE of Canopus.
43:
*Sirius grows to pop 5, works 2 Fish, 2 Gold Hills, Forested Silk tiles.
*Borders of Canopus expand
44:
*Canopus grows to pop 2, work both Flood Plains.
*Meditation complete, start Sailing
45:
*WB done in Sirius start Warrior
*Gold mine done in Canopus and connected by river. Canopus works FP + Gold
46: Lord Parkin moves 1N to chop.
47:
*Finish Sailing, Start Priesthood.
*Warrior done in Sirius, start Galley.
*WB done in Canopus, start Worker. WB moves to Fish.
*Lord Parkin starts chop.
48: WB improves Fish tile in Canopus, Canopus switches to working Fish + Gold.
49:
*Priesthood done, start Monarchy
*Chop done. Lord Parkin free to move
50: No Action? (Worker?)
51: Sirius grow to pop 6, runs Scientist + Silk.
52:
*Galley done in Sirius, start Settler (done in 9 turns).
*Worker done in Canopus, start WB.
(Monarchy will be done on turn 56)

This works out really well! Inserting Myst. + Med. before Sailing doesn't delay hooking the Gold up in Canopus, and gets us the Galley only one turn later, with it's passenger (the Warrior) already built! That won't delay exploration at all. and we get Meditation a full 3 turns earlier.

Working the Gold in Canopus earlier also gets us Monarchy a full turn earlier (on turn 56).

I'm really starting to like this approach.

Irgy
May 14, 2010, 12:07 AM
Some thoughts;
* I would want to put at least two warriors in our first galley to send across to the next island.

* I'd be extremely surprised if we get Buddhism after having teched writing, even if we do skip Sailing. The fact that the early religeons haven't gone yet means nothing. I wouldn't expect them to have gone already, the time when I would expect them to go is during or just after our research of writing. We'll know more when the time comes though.

* I'm still hoping our exploring workboat finds another civ before we would otherwise have started on Mysticism, at which point I'd want to be able to pick it up in trade.

* Canopus should not be working a floodplains until population 4 or so. The sooner the workboat is built, the sooner it can work the fish and grow quickly. I'm imagining plains-forest-hill, switched to gold when gold is improved, then fish when fish is improved, back onto gold at population 2 and building a second workboat for the other fish. Building the workboat as fast as possible is exactly what you would do if it was turn 0 and Canopus was the capital, this is not a great deal different.

Trystero
May 14, 2010, 02:20 AM
Some thoughts;
* I would want to put at least two warriors in our first galley to send across to the next island.

I can see the point of this, but I wouldn't want to delay getting an explorer over to the other island. We could insert 2 Warrior builds in place of the 2nd exploring WB, I suppose. This decision might depend on what the first exploring WB finds.

* I'd be extremely surprised if we get Buddhism after having teched writing, even if we do skip Sailing. The fact that the early religeons haven't gone yet means nothing. I wouldn't expect them to have gone already, the time when I would expect them to go is during or just after our research of writing. We'll know more when the time comes though.

Yes, that's certainly true. But again, the religion isn't the goal here, it's Monarchy. Rearranging the tech order merely increases the chances that we'll get to Meditation first. None of our current plans depend on founding a religion

* I'm still hoping our exploring workboat finds another civ before we would otherwise have started on Mysticism, at which point I'd want to be able to pick it up in trade.

That would be nice. :)

* Canopus should not be working a floodplains until population 4 or so. The sooner the workboat is built, the sooner it can work the fish and grow quickly. I'm imagining plains-forest-hill, switched to gold when gold is improved, then fish when fish is improved, back onto gold at population 2 and building a second workboat for the other fish. Building the workboat as fast as possible is exactly what you would do if it was turn 0 and Canopus was the capital, this is not a great deal different.

The problem with this is that I don't think getting the WB out sooner is advantageous unless it lets us work more tiles sooner. In particular, in this case we want to work the Gold ASAP. I tried hurrying the WB by working a better :hammers: tile, and it does not. If I work the PFH tile in Canopus (+3:hammers:) rather than the FP (+3:food:, +1:commerce:) we get the WB 3 turns sooner, but Canopus doesn't grow to size 2 until turn 50. That's a full six turns later than in the current proposal, and 4 turns of working the Gold which are lost. The end result is that Monarchy comes 1 turn later. Also, we'd have to build something other than a worker when the WB is done, since Canopus will still be at size 1. I think the relevant consideration is that we want to grow Canopus to size 2 as fast as we can. Working the floodplains does that.

Edit: I'd like to emphasize that I think working the Gold in Canopus sooner is an important aim regardless of what we choose to research next. I know I'm making these arguments in the context of a proposal to beeline Monarchy, but I think this plan for Canopus (working the Gold ASAP) is sound even if we choose to pursue Math or IW.

pindicator
May 14, 2010, 09:12 AM
* I'm still hoping our exploring workboat finds another civ before we would otherwise have started on Mysticism, at which point I'd want to be able to pick it up in trade.

I think this is highly unlikely. We currently have the highest GNP in the game, yet (under some alternate tech-line) even we would not be able to tech Alphabet before our current schedule of teching Mysticism.

Trystero
May 14, 2010, 12:20 PM
One more thing that occurred to me, based on the discussions of the test game: If we are not going to whip in Canopus prior to researching Monarchy, then we can delay the revolt to Slavery until we can change civics to both Slavery and HR. This would be preferable since we would have one less turn of anarchy. That means we'd get to Monarchy (and Meditation) one turn sooner, and it would speed up the builds in Sirius by one turn (explorers out faster).

Trystero
May 14, 2010, 01:59 PM
Turn 30 - 2800 BC

Sirius has grown to size 4. We are now working both Fish and both Gold tiles.

Lord Parkin moved SW-SW to the grassland hill 2W of Sirius. He will start chopping on the next turn.

The Work Boat is complete in Sirius, and we've started a Settler. The Work Boat moved SE-SE toward the other island. No new tiles revealed.

The relevant part of the map:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0079.jpg

Demographics:
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0080.jpg

We are the top city:
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0081.jpg

No religions founded, no wonders built.

The WB should probably move 1E-1NE (or 2NE?) on the next turn. Also I think we should name the WB/Galleys as well to keep better track of them. How about names of spacecraft or space probes, real or fictional? I was thinking Mariner, Pioneer, or Voyager for our exploring WBs (after the earliest craft to explore the solar system).

Edit: 2E might have been the better WB move (followed by 1E+1NE) since we want to go N. I was probably thinking about taking the most direct route rather than the most Northern. If we move 2E next we'll reveal the fogged coastal tile and an additional land tile. Perhaps that's the way to go.

Irgy
May 14, 2010, 05:26 PM
... The Work Boat moved SE-SE toward the other island. No new tiles revealed.

Ugh. What part of "Workboat explores in a clockwise direction, heading around the northern tip of the land we can see to the east" made you move SE-SE?

Edit: 2E might have been the better WB move (followed by 1E+1NE) since we want to go N. I was probably thinking about taking the most direct route rather than the most Northern. If we move 2E next we'll reveal the fogged coastal tile and an additional land tile. Perhaps that's the way to go.

Ok so you noticed this yourself too. Please take some care when deciding about moves that aren't spelled out. That goes for all of us. The fact that you've corrected yourself is proof enough that you hadn't thought it through fully.

Of course if you knew what I'd done in a certain SGTOM recently you wouldn't be listening to me about "taking care when moving in a team game". I'm not trying to have a go at you, just pointing it out. I blame myself in this case for going to all the trouble to write a micro plan thread but then leaving this bit out.

We absolutely do not want to go 2E next turn. The workboat is for making contact with other civs, not for exploring the other island. We will see the fogged tiles on the islands with galley warriors well before we need to know what they are, it's not worth delaying another half-turn to look at that one square sooner.

How about names of spacecraft or space probes, real or fictional? I was thinking Mariner, Pioneer, or Voyager for our exploring WBs (after the earliest craft to explore the solar system).

I like this idea.

Irgy
May 14, 2010, 05:45 PM
So, I had a play around with micro in Canopus. I see what you mean about missing out on gold turns - it's a question of timing, we need to grow to pop 2 so it's better to grow while the gold isn't improved. Complicated by the fact that we can chop the workboat. I'll come up with a few alternatives and compare the food/hammers/beakers directly.

I think this is highly unlikely. We currently have the highest GNP in the game, yet (under some alternate tech-line) even we would not be able to tech Alphabet before our current schedule of teching Mysticism.

That's exactly my point. Out current schedule will get Mysticism well before we have any hope of picking it up in trade. If on the other hand if for instance we researched Alphabet ourselves, by the time we were finished we'd probably have found another civ.

I'm still far from convinced we're in a hurry to chase after Monarchy. My old argument is that it was a complete tech detour. From looking at the test game, I have a new argument: We have no health resources. At 6 population, Sirius is already at its health cap. So the benefits of increasing the happy cap beyond the 6 we can get it to already are rapidly diminishing. We do still get to work a few more coattages, but the usual situation where health resources are plentiful and as soon as HR comes in the population grows dramatically is just not the case here.

We'll want Monarchy eventually sure, but I think this strengthens the argument for getting things like Math and Alphabet first.

AlphaShard
May 14, 2010, 06:07 PM
We do have Fish as a Health resource.

So if we don't want to go north, then we go south?

Trystero
May 14, 2010, 07:12 PM
Ugh. What part of "Workboat explores in a clockwise direction, heading around the northern tip of the land we can see to the east" made you move SE-SE?

Sorry. :sad: Moving around the island clockwise was clear enough. It was how to get to the island I botched.

Ok so you noticed this yourself too. Please take some care when deciding about moves that aren't spelled out. That goes for all of us. The fact that you've corrected yourself is proof enough that you hadn't thought it through fully.

Yeah, again, sorry. That was really stupid. I have no good excuse for my actions.

So, I had a play around with micro in Canopus. I see what you mean about missing out on gold turns - it's a question of timing, we need to grow to pop 2 so it's better to grow while the gold isn't improved. Complicated by the fact that we can chop the workboat. I'll come up with a few alternatives and compare the food/hammers/beakers directly.

OK, cool. One other parameter that should be considered: the slider. After we found Canopus, we have to drop the slider to 90% owing to maintenance costs (-2 :gold:/turn). At that setting (in my test game) we earn +2 :gold:/turn. I left the slider at 90% for the rest of the test game, but we could switch it back to 100% after we accumulate enough :gold: to hurry research.

I'm still far from convinced we're in a hurry to chase after Monarchy. My old argument is that it was a complete tech detour. From looking at the test game, I have a new argument: We have no health resources. At 6 population, Sirius is already at its health cap. So the benefits of increasing the happy cap beyond the 6 we can get it to already are rapidly diminishing. We do still get to work a few more cottages, but the usual situation where health resources are plentiful and as soon as HR comes in the population grows dramatically is just not the case here.

Fair enough. From my perspective though, unhappiness is far more detrimental than unhealthiness. True, both will limit our development, but I see unhappiness as the bigger problem. By the time we've teched Monarchy we could either trade it for Math (and aqueducts), or our research rate will allow us to self-research it in 6-7 turns. Granted, if we aren't going to grow our cities much more in the near future, the value of raising the caps is debatable. I have been arguing that i think we should try to grow Sirius, at least, to finance our expansion. An alternate path might be to tech toward Currency through Alphabet and build wealth.

We do have Fish as a Health resource.
True, but that is already built into the micro plan I proposed. That allows us to get to 6 pop in Sirius without growing to unhealthiness.

So if we don't want to go north, then we go south?

My blunder essentially puts us a half turn behind if we go north. True, we wouldn't lose any turns going south, but perhaps we should stick with the original plan.

Lord Parkin
May 14, 2010, 07:48 PM
Off the top of my head, what about...

Size 1, work flood plain and start WB
At size 2, work gold min + flood plain
WB finishes, start a worker using fish & gold
Worker finishes, build another WB
I'd kind of thought working the PFH to get the WB out fastest might be the most efficient option, but we could look into this one.

The Work Boat is complete in Sirius, and we've started a Settler. The Work Boat moved SE-SE toward the other island. No new tiles revealed.
Oh no... that puts us a whole turn behind on our clockwise exploration. The Work Boat can't go immediately 1NE next turn, because it's an ocean not in our territory. This means he has to go either 1E-1NE or 1N-1NE. This means we're a whole turn behind on our clockwise exploration for no good reason. :sad:

Ah well, never mind, mistakes happen. I should have thought to point out ahead of time the exact path the Work Boat should take, I guess, although I thought the move wouldn't be rushed into either.

EDIT: Actually, I guess if we go 1N-1NE it's potentially only a half-turn lost. So we should take that move next time. Please be more careful in future, though! :)

AlphaShard
May 14, 2010, 07:57 PM
I named the WB Voyager after it was suggested seems like a good name to me.

Trystero
May 14, 2010, 08:02 PM
Oh no... that puts us a whole turn behind on our clockwise exploration. The Work Boat can't go immediately 1NE next turn, because it's an ocean not in our territory. This means he has to go either 1E-1NE or 1N-1NE. This means we're a whole turn behind on our clockwise exploration for no good reason. :sad:


Yeah, again, really sorry. :sad: I'll refrain from playing turns for a while.

Lord Parkin
May 14, 2010, 08:15 PM
Yeah, again, really sorry. :sad: I'll refrain from playing turns for a while.
Nah, it's okay dude, it's just one mistake, happens to us all sometimes. I shouldn't have been so hard on you. You don't need to stop playing turns just because of one mistake. :)

pindicator
May 14, 2010, 08:25 PM
The WB should probably move 1E-1NE (or 2NE?) on the next turn. Also I think we should name the WB/Galleys as well to keep better track of them. How about names of spacecraft or space probes, real or fictional? I was thinking Mariner, Pioneer, or Voyager for our exploring WBs (after the earliest craft to explore the solar system).

i super-duper like this! :D

I'm still far from convinced we're in a hurry to chase after Monarchy. My old argument is that it was a complete tech detour. From looking at the test game, I have a new argument: We have no health resources. At 6 population, Sirius is already at its health cap. So the benefits of increasing the happy cap beyond the 6 we can get it to already are rapidly diminishing. We do still get to work a few more coattages, but the usual situation where health resources are plentiful and as soon as HR comes in the population grows dramatically is just not the case here.

I see your point. By the time we research Monarchy, the only city we'll have pushing the happy cap is the capital. And that city probably will want to be focusing on either 2 specialists for a GrSci or Settlers/Workers for new cities.

Perhaps the tech discussion will need a new thread? Or even a new poll! :)

We may have another issue which you touch on: what if this map is purposefully designed to have health be the limiting factor on city size. Perhaps we should be mindful of future chopping until we can explore a bit more and see if there are health resources to be had. And if health is a concern, then Maths and IW -> Compass get a little bit of a bump on the priority listing.

I'd kind of thought working the PFH to get the WB out fastest might be the most efficient option, but we could look into this one.

As Trystero pointed out, the goal is to work the gold mine as quickly as possible. And since we have a forest chop providing most of the hammers needed for the WB, the flood plain + chop is the fastest way for us to get to size 2 and work both the WB and the Gold tiles.

Edit: I am eager to see what the other scenarios that Irgy concocted show!

azzaman333
May 14, 2010, 08:32 PM
Why not just go anti-clockwise with the workboat?

Also, Hereditary Rule will still allow us to grow larger than we would from getting more health. Happiness is a hard cap, healthiness can be ignored to an extent.

AlphaShard
May 14, 2010, 08:43 PM
The unhealthyness still looses us food though.

Trystero
May 14, 2010, 08:44 PM
Nah, it's okay dude, it's just one mistake, happens to us all sometimes. I shouldn't have been so hard on you. You don't need to stop playing turns just because of one mistake. :)

Thanks, but it's OK. I had it coming. That was a pretty :dubious: maneuver. I should have played the worker moves, and consulted the team on the WB.


I see your point. By the time we research Monarchy, the only city we'll have pushing the happy cap is the capital. And that city probably will want to be focusing on either 2 specialists for a GrSci or Settlers/Workers for new cities.

Perhaps the tech discussion will need a new thread? Or even a new poll! :)


I can see good reasons for a number of tech choices after Sailing. The problem is deciding which would best work with our "plan". So I think more than a tech poll, we might need a plan. :) That said I don't know if we know enough right now to make a good plan. One thing I thought we should discuss is what we are going to do with the cities we have (specialization?).

Trystero
May 14, 2010, 08:48 PM
Why not just go anti-clockwise with the workboat?


Edit: OK, looking through this thread, I agreed with Irgy's plan about going clockwise. Even we are making assumptions, it seemed reasonable.

azzaman333
May 14, 2010, 08:56 PM
The unhealthyness still looses us food though.

Losing food isn't much of a penalty. Sure, it's not ideal, but it doesn't prevent the city from getting bigger unless we're low on surplus food in the first place, in which case we're not going to be doing much growing anyway.

Irgy
May 14, 2010, 09:44 PM
Well, I played around, and my conclusion is
* Work the floodplain
* Switch to silk with 2 turns to growth (still 2 turns to growth)
* Work silk and gold at size 2 (missed only one turn of improved gold)
* Switch back to floodplains (or not) once the workboat is out.

Basically what Trystero said in the first place. The silk is just a sneaky optimisation that gets the workboat out one turn earlier without delaying the growth to 2.

The plains hill faster workboat option does come out slightly ahead in hammers+food, but loses a ton of beakers (~30) to do it, because the fish and gold are improved the same turn and it's still 4 turns before the city can grow.

Either way a chop is of no particular help, the workboat is always done before the chop finishes. I'd prefer to be cottaging the flood plains instead. But that's a whole other story.

On other matters;
* I still think we're more likely to find other teams sooner going anti-clockwise (i.e. north for the moment) than the other way. Sure, we lost half a turn compared to the optimal move, but it's done now, no sense wasting many more by heading the wrong direction entirely just to justify it. I say the 'wrong' direction because there's still a good chance that the land we can see to the east meets up with the land we can see southwest, and we could spend a long time exploring a big bay to the south while never getting very far from where we started.
* When I talk about the health cap, I realise we still gain from growing through it, and that the happiness cap is more restrictive, all I'm saying is that we don't get as much out of it as it may first appear.

Irgy
May 14, 2010, 09:51 PM
Losing food isn't much of a penalty. Sure, it's not ideal, but it doesn't prevent the city from getting bigger unless we're low on surplus food in the first place, in which case we're not going to be doing much growing anyway.

That's exactly it though. We're already at that point in Sirius. With the scientists and no lighthouse we have no surplus food at all from population 6. Later when we have a lighthouse and we're working cottages not scientists we'll grow, but that gives us plenty of time to get alphabet and find a trading partner first.

... By the time we've teched Monarchy we could either trade it for Math (and aqueducts)...

Or we could trade maths for some part of Monarchy. My point is that we're more likely to find a team with pre-requisites for Monarchy than a team with Math.

azzaman333
May 14, 2010, 09:57 PM
If the teams have similar starts, they're not going to be going down the Monarchy path either. We could conceivably be in a very good position to get the Oracle with some smart chopping in city #2.

Also, we'll be building a Lighthouse in Sirius, and once we have the academy we can work cottages instead of running Scientists. That's 6:food: surplus, allowing up to 6 more cottages to be worked (if my maths is right).

Monarchy is a safer bet than Alphabet.

Lord Parkin
May 14, 2010, 10:12 PM
Why not just go anti-clockwise with the workboat?
Nah, if we were going to go anti-clockwise we're 1.5 turns behind with the current Work Boat position. Better to just keep going clockwise and accept the 0.5 turn missed. :)

If the teams have similar starts, they're not going to be going down the Monarchy path either. We could conceivably be in a very good position to get the Oracle with some smart chopping in city #2.
True, actually. We can be 100% sure that no-one is able to build the Oracle until after at least 1 religion is founded, since that's a prerequisite for Priesthood. So as things stand at the moment, with no religions founded (just checked), we can be 100% sure that no-one will be able to even start on the Oracle for several turns yet. Thus, it's possible we could still have a shot at it.

pindicator
May 14, 2010, 11:37 PM
True, actually. We can be 100% sure that no-one is able to build the Oracle until after at least 1 religion is founded, since that's a prerequisite for Priesthood. So as things stand at the moment, with no religions founded (just checked), we can be 100% sure that no-one will be able to even start on the Oracle for several turns yet. Thus, it's possible we could still have a shot at it.

That's a very good point! Perhaps some test games into how long it takes to get the Oracle would be prudent.

Trystero
May 15, 2010, 12:30 AM
Irgy;

Re: your micro plan.

How much gold do we get from putting the research slider to 0% at turn 38? I've never tried binary research, so I've never tried to micro it. Also, don't we lose research that we can't readily make up in the short term?

That's a very good point! Perhaps some test games into how long it takes to get the Oracle would be prudent.

That would be easy enough with the Monarchy test games (Since that's the only scenario in which we'd bother with Priesthood). My worry about the Oracle is that it might distract us from more important things we could be building, and that we would want to build it in Canopus (it would contaminate the Great Scientist points we'd be accumulating in Sirius), which would be pretty poorly developed at that point.

Edit: I ran a quick test on building The Oracle in Canopus, in a game otherwise identical to my latest Monarchy test game with the same tech order, so I didn't prioritize PH over Sailing. It differed in that after the WB, I put 1 turn into another WB before PH was researched. (Also, I did not revolt to Slavery/HR. I think we could revolt and whip, but it wouldn't change the completion date, but I'd have to double check). I then switched to building the Oracle working a FP + PFH until the Gold was mined and then switching to FP + Gold Hill, and FP + Gold Hill + PFH at size 3. I chopped 3 forests (two Silk tiles in the BFC + a PFH) and finished The Oracle on turn 60. None of our research or builds in Sirius was altered in the test. This wasn't optimized very much, so we could do better, but this gives you a rough idea of the time frame.

Edit2: I double checked: revolting to Slavery/HR did not change the end date if we whip at earliest possible opportunity, so might as well revolt. Again, it was just a quick run through.

azzaman333
May 15, 2010, 02:56 AM
We'd probably want to pump out a few workers and pre-chop/chop the Oracle if no one has founded a religion by the time we finish Mysticism.

Nah, if we were going to go anti-clockwise we're 1.5 turns behind with the current Work Boat position. Better to just keep going clockwise and accept the 0.5 turn missed. :)

No, I mean continue anti-clockwise around the island to our east, where we don't miss even half a turn.

Lord Parkin
May 15, 2010, 04:32 AM
No, I mean continue anti-clockwise around the island to our east, where we don't miss even half a turn.
That's assuming it's an island. If it's all a single star-shaped continent, then continuing to the SE will just lead us to a dead end. I still strongly support heading 1N-1NE next turn, then clockwise after that. That way we're much less likely to run into a dead end unless we hit icebergs, because regardless of whether it's a continent or islands heading NE will get us around them.

hell_hound
May 15, 2010, 04:47 AM
That's assuming it's an island. If it's all a single star-shaped continent, then continuing to the SE will just lead us to a dead end. I still strongly support heading 1N-1NE next turn, then clockwise after that. That way we're much less likely to run into a dead end unless we hit icebergs, because regardless of whether it's a continent or islands heading NE will get us around them.

I don't understand why though, it makes absolutely no difference which way we travel around the landmass, as long as we do not hit ice either way will require the same amount of time to circumnavigate in either direction.

azzaman333
May 15, 2010, 04:51 AM
That's assuming it's an island. If it's all a single star-shaped continent, then continuing to the SE will just lead us to a dead end. I still strongly support heading 1N-1NE next turn, then clockwise after that. That way we're much less likely to run into a dead end unless we hit icebergs, because regardless of whether it's a continent or islands heading NE will get us around them.

There's no evidence to suggest that ther is a single star-shaped continent.