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caveman1917
Jul 04, 2010, 09:07 AM
I agree we need more workers soon. There's no point in having more population when they're working unimproved tiles anyway.

Trystero
Jul 04, 2010, 12:32 PM
I'll let Trystero make his own point or else I probably won't do it justice and thereby skew things.

A couple of points:

1. I think we need more workers. The problem I see is that happiness is what's limiting our growth right now, not undeveloped tiles. That could change if we get Monarchy or a religion.

2. I also think we need at least one more city at the horse site soon. My micro plan was an initial attempt at that, but I think it could be improved (a lot) by some of Irgy's suggestions in the micro thread. In particular, I think I built too much support for the potential 4th city (warriors and a WB). Irgy has pointed out that this region is shared with AMAZON by treaty, so we don't need to worry about losing the horse city. I think we should build one more settler soon and send him to the horse site. Settling this city sooner lets it start to grow and build culture. Because the horse city is in an uncontested region, we could let it develop more slowly (build it's own WB and worker, for instance). Having said all this, I think the settler could wait until after a worker for the home island.

I will try a new micro plan now that I'm done fixing the test game.

Problem is we need to hook up the Copper first, we'll probably have to build the Axeman there. I think the next builds for both Sirian and Canopus can and should be a worker. Canopus will finish it's WB in 2 turns and can build a Worker in at least 6 turns (it's going to be pop four next turn and at it's Happy cap).

Irgy has pointed out (yes, the micro thread is mostly he and I talking to each other. :p) that if we build a warrior in Canopus it could grow to pop 5. I think that's better than building another worker right away. Canopus working both fish, both (cottaged) FPs, and the gold would be a great worker/settler pump.

Edit: We just learned from AMAZON that Maverick, who are the team on the south side of Bode, don't have Sailing yet (!). The prospects of grabbing the copper city just improved greatly!

AlphaShard
Jul 04, 2010, 04:21 PM
I think that the fact that we have a agreement about the Horseland and not about Copper-pig land says that we should be settling there first.

Trystero
Jul 05, 2010, 12:55 AM
I think that the fact that we have a agreement about the Horseland and not about Copper-pig land says that we should be settling there first.

Oh most definitely. We want that copper/pig/clam site. I was referring to get another settler to the horse site after we settle at the copper site. Actually, since we've learned that Mavericks don't have Sailing yet, I'm beginning to think we want a second settler soon to grab another site on the south island. Either at the second copper site (if there is one), or whatever strategic resource is bound to be near it's western desert area.

And I played through a few turns after the current micro, and I think that the consensus is correct and both Canopus and Sirius should build workers next. Growing Canopus to size 5 would take the time to build 2 warriors, and I think that would delay the worker too long.

Trystero
Jul 05, 2010, 01:19 AM
I ended the current turn and updated the Turn Tracker thread here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9349944#post9349944), including demographics. The Quatronian capital, The Continuum, is first (it's size 7) in the top 5 cities, Sirius is second, and Merlot castle third.

Next turn:

Enterprise moves north and Vesta boards. Vesta will disembark on the following turn before Enterprise moves.

Math is done, and we start Currency.

My vote is for Pallas to move 1NW to the pig hill and reveal more of the area around the potential city site. I think once Vesta reaches this arm/island she should proceed in a SW direction to explore the southern coast.

Irgy
Jul 05, 2010, 01:22 AM
Personally I think we should settle the next 3-5 cities on Bode. Settling Anjennida (see the latest AMAZON message for why I'm calling it that) is about as urgent as settling the rest of Sol in my book. Especially given the monster production potential on Bode - once we settle there we can churn out the settlers to backfill.

I agree about not growing Canopus to 5. The time the worker would spend improving another tile there for the 5th citizen to work should be spent building a cottage near Sirius for when Sirius switches the scientists back off on T67. Or a grass hill mine for the same turn if we want to prioritise production.

I like the idea of heavy production on Bode and a commerce focus on Sol and probably Anjennida as well.

Trystero
Jul 05, 2010, 01:37 AM
Personally I think we should settle the next 3-5 cities on Bode. Settling Anjennida (see the latest AMAZON message for why I'm calling it that) is about as urgent as settling the rest of Sol in my book. Especially given the monster production potential on Bode - once we settle there we can churn out the settlers to backfill.


I think at least one of the next 3-5 cities should be at the Anjennida (sounds like a medical condition) horse site. Two reasons: 1. horses/chariots would be good for overland exploring and barb axe defense; 2. we'd establish a foothold on that arm, and help AMAZON with fogbusting. But yes, I think we should grab as much of Bode as possible before the Mavericks arrive, so that should take priority.

Irgy
Jul 05, 2010, 01:57 AM
So it sounds like the difference of opinions comes down almost entirely to the sense of urgency in settling the horse city. So, just to broaden the discussion, this is my overall settling priority list:

1. Pig-Copper-Clams on Bode
2. Pig-Clams-Clams on the eastern end of Bode (the clams in the channel between Bode and Anjennida)
3. The resource on Bode in the equivalent location to Anjennida's marble
4. Horse-Clams on Anjennida
5. Marble.
6. Anywhere we can still get away with claiming on Bode.
7. A southern grassland/jungle site on Anjennida (not sure how much room there is, maybe we can fit another couple).
8. Another Sol city (not sure which one first).
9. The remaining Sol city.
10. Filler, whales city, anything else we can get our hands on.

And obviously you would move the horses up to #2, and be inclined to get them out sooner.

Personally I don't feel a need for getting when we have copper. Let me put it this way; if having no resources was '0', and having both metal and horses was '10', I'd say having just horses is '7' (against barbs anyway, '5' against humans with metal because they'll spam spearmen) and having just metal is '8.5'.

Trystero
Jul 05, 2010, 02:09 AM
Actually, that priority list looks OK to me. I think I would have made the horse site #3, but I can agree that claiming as much of Bode as possible should be the higher priority. I would aim for 6 cities by 1 AD, and having one of those be the horse site is fine.

Edit: If we wanted to be really bold, we could try try claim the other copper site on Bode, which I presume is to the SW of the site we see.

azzaman333
Jul 05, 2010, 02:21 AM
Actually, that priority list looks OK to me. I think I would have made the horse site #3, but I can agree that claiming as much of Bode as possible should be the higher priority. I would aim for 6 cities by 1 AD, and having one of those be the horse site is fine.

Edit: If we wanted to be really bold, we could try try claim the other copper site on Bode, which I presume is to the SW of the site we see.

No need to piss off Mavericks.

Trystero
Jul 05, 2010, 02:53 AM
No need to piss off Mavericks.

Yeah, that would be cheeky. :mischief: It would also probably be a case of overextending our lines.

pindicator
Jul 05, 2010, 10:19 AM
I would also like to see the horse city moved up. The strategic resource is the main reason -- the more resources we have the easier a future war will be. But also, that spot will be great land for laying down cottages and should grow like a weed once we get calendar.

I do agree that settling Bode should take priority over setting Andromeda, because we have an established relationship with Andromeda, and that production land looks juicy. But I don't want Amazon to get the impression we're "giving" them Andromeda to settle by not putting any cities on that land.

AlphaShard
Jul 05, 2010, 07:52 PM
It's a new turn, India let their timer run out, Obsolete logged in and out and left it to run out.

Anyways good news! We've met the Vikings! Voyager moved out of the canal and moved south to find the viking Galley.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=257181&stc=1&d=1278381082

The Galley has moved to pick up our Warrior. Meanwhile the warrior on Bode is faced with a Barb warrior, what's the best way to insure his survival and conintued exploration? Fortify where he is? Move to the pigs? Run away (ie Brave Sir Robin)

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=257182&stc=1&d=1278381082

1889
Jul 05, 2010, 08:32 PM
Our warrior should be safe on the hills. How about fortifying in place for an extra 5%. The improved odds may mean we don't have to spend so many turns healing.

grant2004
Jul 05, 2010, 08:47 PM
Hmm, I don't know what the odds are for defending that hill are. I'm sure they're decent enough that we would feel safe if we tried it. With the information someone said earlier, that barbarians actually contribute to fogbusting, it may be better to run to the copper and keep exploring. Barbarian warriors aren't a big threat and if keeping one around prevents an archer, or an axeman, from spawing it will be well worth keeping him alive. Even if he chases us to the copper we should be able to escape into the forest and get an even larger defensive bonus.

azzaman333
Jul 05, 2010, 09:04 PM
What is the odds difference between the 25% and 30% defensive bonuses that we'd be able to get?

Irgy
Jul 05, 2010, 10:26 PM
I don't think we actually get the 5% bonus at all if we fortify on the spot. It's easy to check this in Buffy though.

Either way I say go the path of Sir Robin. The spot we need to protect is where we're going to settle. So let's move there, via the copper to avoid a conflict on the way. From the settling site we'll be in a jungle, and likely across a river from the barb we can see now. As I've said before, we don't really benefit even from defeating the barbarian at the moment, and we certainly don't benefit from losing to it.

Trystero
Jul 05, 2010, 11:54 PM
I vote for retreat to the copper. And great... there is another one waiting where we want Vesta to disembark.

DaveShack
Jul 06, 2010, 12:42 AM
Please turn on the grid in addition to resources.

I like the idea of settling the copper site first. I think all spoke settlements are going to need at least 2 defenders from an early age, just to deal with the barb threat. One MP and one to prevent pillaging, or enough to spawnbust.

Even though home islands are fairly safe until astronomy (or until an opponent manages to bridge with culture -- think artist bomb), the spokes are completely up for grabs and open to land and sea warfare from the start. We can plan all we want to take city sites, but we have to be able to defend them.

Edit: That copper site is between us and Quatronia, not between us an Mavericks, right?

azzaman333
Jul 06, 2010, 03:57 AM
I don't think we actually get the 5% bonus at all if we fortify on the spot. It's easy to check this in Buffy though.

Either way I say go the path of Sir Robin. The spot we need to protect is where we're going to settle. So let's move there, via the copper to avoid a conflict on the way. From the settling site we'll be in a jungle, and likely across a river from the barb we can see now. As I've said before, we don't really benefit even from defeating the barbarian at the moment, and we certainly don't benefit from losing to it.

We definitely get the 5% fortify bonus if we don't move him this turn, I'm certain of this.

If some has the time I'd really like to see the odds of us winning if we fortify for 1 turn or move while still in attacking range of the barb.

fed1943
Jul 07, 2010, 08:16 AM
We just can't avoid combat, now or later.
The enemy shall have 2,00 strengh and our warrior 2,60.

Irgy
Jul 07, 2010, 03:58 PM
We definitely get the 5% fortify bonus if we don't move him this turn, I'm certain of this.

Well, you need to learn to be less certain of things when all they're based on is your own intuition/opinion then. I just did the experiment, and the combat odds are:
* Without fortifying, 2.5 vs 2 at 74.9% odds for us to win
* Fortifying this turn, 2.5 vs 2 at 74.9% odds for us to win
* Across a river into jungle, 3.5 vs 2 at 96.7% odds for us to win

You can try it yourself, find a hill, move a warrior onto it, worldbuild a barbarian onto it the next turn, press fortify, and check the combat log.

So, there's no point fortifying this turn, we don't get the bonus before the barbs have their turn.

It's a moot point anyway, because we don't want to fight this turn regardless. NE to copper, followed by NW to planned settling location is still my vote.

Trystero
Jul 07, 2010, 07:06 PM
We have about an hour left on the turn clock. AlphaShard, are you playing this turn?

The only thing in contention is where to more Pallas the votes are (I believe):

Fortify: 1889, Azzaman
Move to copper hill: grant2004, Irgy, Trystero,
undecided, or I can't tell: DaveShack, fed1943

I think it's safest to move to the copper.

Irgy
Jul 07, 2010, 07:23 PM
I'd also point out that the fortify votes were partly based on a mistaken opinion that we actually get the bonus too.

Trystero
Jul 07, 2010, 07:48 PM
OK - I moved Pallas to the copper hill and finished the turn. We've also received Monotheism and Priesthood.

I'm still at work, so I'll post a formal report later.

AlphaShard
Jul 07, 2010, 08:10 PM
Sorry I didn't post sooner but I wanted to get the best move for our Warrior. I'd rather get that other warrior over there fast. Thanks for finishing the turn. :goodjob:

azzaman333
Jul 07, 2010, 11:28 PM
Well, you need to learn to be less certain of things when all they're based on is your own intuition/opinion then. I just did the experiment, and the combat odds are:
* Without fortifying, 2.5 vs 2 at 74.9% odds for us to win
* Fortifying this turn, 2.5 vs 2 at 74.9% odds for us to win
* Across a river into jungle, 3.5 vs 2 at 96.7% odds for us to win

You can try it yourself, find a hill, move a warrior onto it, worldbuild a barbarian onto it the next turn, press fortify, and check the combat log.

So, there's no point fortifying this turn, we don't get the bonus before the barbs have their turn.

It's a moot point anyway, because we don't want to fight this turn regardless. NE to copper, followed by NW to planned settling location is still my vote.

Didn't test in a simultaneous turns game.

Irgy
Jul 08, 2010, 12:45 AM
Didn't test in a simultaneous turns game.

Have you tested it in a simultaneous turns game?

If you have, then statements like "I know we would get the bonus because I have tested it", or "We will get the bonus because this is simultaneous turns, even though you wouldn't normally" would be much more informative.

If you haven't, then it's still true that you can't really claim to be certain of yourself, and the evidence from sequential turn games still suggests that we wouldn't get the bonus.

I can actually see exactly why it might be different in simultaneous turns, but unless someone manages to actually do the experiment we're not going to get anywhere sitting here arguing about it.

Irgy
Jul 08, 2010, 01:07 AM
NE to copper, followed by NW to planned settling location is still my vote.

So, it looks like my fog-gazing was not so good, the spot we want to settle on is not forested.

It's good news really as it means we don't lose a turn to settle there as opposed to settling further east - we can offload the settler into the forest, and move&settle the next turn. But it means putting the warrior there isn't so safe. I'd suggest moving to the forest 1N and camping there for a while. If we move to the settling spot we could in theory meet the warrior with no combat bonuses at all.

Trystero
Jul 08, 2010, 10:59 AM
The next turn is up: The WB is finished in Canopus, and is moving to the clams by the copper city site. Vesta offloaded because the adjacent barb warrior disappeared (moved north- or westward). The only decision to make is where to move Pallas. The barb warrior was 1S2W of her current location last turn.

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0163.jpg

Like Irgy, I vote for moving 1N, but I would rather move to the forested tile 1NW next turn to get a better look around.

Edit: we should also decide if we want Vesta to explore to the SW or to move toward the Canopus site to assist Pallas. I could have moved Enterprise north first and then unloaded Pallas, but I was concerned the barb warrior could have moved to the hill 2SW of Enterprise in the screen shot. Since all the adjacent tiles around the site where Pallas is now were clear of barbs, I unloaded her there.

grant2004
Jul 08, 2010, 11:33 AM
I think 1 N is the right first move as well, and I agree with Trystero that moving to the other forest NW is a good idea as it will reveal a little bit more of the map while we're waiting for the settler. Either forest will provide a strong defensive bonus, so we may as well reveal the extra land.

As for Vesta, I think we can move her SW next turn, even if we need help defending the new city site a move SW will not delay her arrival. I would imagine that Pallas would be sufficient for securing the city site so unless something comes up, I'd keep Vesta exploring after the first SW move.

Trystero
Jul 08, 2010, 11:48 AM
My thinking is the same as Grant's regarding Vesta. Pallas should be safe enough on the forested tiles around the Arcturus site.

I also forgot to mention that I noticed on the diplomacy/tech screen that Quatronia had received Iron Working from CDZ (hence their jump in score). They should provide it to us next turn, but we should really confirm CDZ are in the ETTT with Amazon, and start coordinating technology research. It seems to me that CDZ would be most inclined to go Compass next which would unlock their UB, and would help us get to Astronomy.

Trystero
Jul 09, 2010, 11:50 AM
There wasn't anyone voicing opposition to moving Pallas 1N to the forested tile, so I did so and ended the turn:

Turn 58 - 1680 BC

Pallas moved 1N to the forested tile near the Arcturus site. Vesta disembarked intoo the jungle 1SW of Enterprise's position, and Enterprise moved 1NW + 1N, continuing back to Sirius:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0164.jpg

Voyager moved 2S. Note what looks like barbarian cultural borders on the SE star arm:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0165.jpg

Our opponent's tech situations:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0166.jpg

================================================== =============

The next turn started shortly after I ended our turn. I logged in and there is a barb warrior on the hill 2SW of Enterprise's position in the screenshot above.

There really doesn't seem to be too much to debate at this point, and we don't have too much to do except explore until Arcturus is founded. I am inclined to move Pallas 1NW to the other forested tile, and Vesta 1SW as we discussed and just end the current turn (after moving our ships, of course :)). Any disagreement with moving things along?

grant2004
Jul 09, 2010, 12:51 PM
Those both sound like reasonable moves to me.

Irgy
Jul 09, 2010, 04:41 PM
Looks good to me too.

DaveShack
Jul 09, 2010, 05:14 PM
Should we support Amazon's request to reload to beginning of turn, to fix a misclick?

I'm inclined to say yes, not just because they are our allies.

Trystero
Jul 09, 2010, 05:24 PM
If it's OK with you, I don't have a problem with it.

grant2004
Jul 09, 2010, 05:47 PM
I feel like in general we shouldn't allow reloads for mistakes, but in this case it's right at the start of the turn, and according to DaveMCW nothing was revealed through their mistake, so I guess it's fine.

Trystero
Jul 09, 2010, 05:57 PM
Actually, I do have a somewhat relevant question: Are we playing with random seed on reload? Will the RNG moves be exactly the same? I am asking because I would like the barb near Vesta to move to the same place.

Irgy
Jul 09, 2010, 06:59 PM
What we'd like out of the random seed isn't really the right reason to make the decision to be honest. As soon as we even consider that, then we're not making an unbiased decision on whether we think a reload for this sort of thing is acceptable, we step into the territory of abusing the reload (or in this case the lack of reload) to our advantage. The same goes for the fact that they're our allies too really.

Ethically, the decision should be based only on what we think is best for the game from an outside perspective, and whether we'd expect the same favour in the reverse situation.

I'm inclined against it in principle, but in practise I think this is a good case for making an exception, so I'd vote yes to the reload.

Trystero
Jul 09, 2010, 08:11 PM
Where the barb moves wouldn't affect my decision on the reload. I was only asking because I was curious if the the reload would affect where the barb moved, not whether that would benefit us (although I am hoping the barb ends up in the same place).

I agree that mistakes are part of the game, but I can see how misplacing a city would have major and long term consequences, and I would rather someone not play the game with such a handicap.

AlphaShard
Jul 10, 2010, 08:25 AM
Well if were wanting to move Pallas 1nw were going to need to reload because I somehow clicked him toward the Barbarian when I was trying to select the Galley. So I fubard. :(

azzaman333
Jul 10, 2010, 08:41 AM
If you can't be careful when taking the turn, don't take it. It's something easily avoidable.

AlphaShard
Jul 10, 2010, 09:48 AM
Okay Mr Perfect.

azzaman333
Jul 10, 2010, 10:02 AM
Look, it's something that is completely within our power to avoid, and very easily avoidable. If you can't take care while taking the turn, don't.

grant2004
Jul 10, 2010, 10:53 AM
Alphashard, you've done many of our turns to perfection, don't worry about something as trivial as a slip up on warrior movement. With your contributions to the team you deserve a few free passes on such things, and a lot more respect than you've been shown so far.

I have a feeling that a reload will likely happen for the Amazon mistake so it will probably come to nothing anyway. You may have just been checking something when the mistake happened, but it would probably be best to avoid playing the turn while a reload is being debated, we don't want to give ourselves any additional information while a reset is possible.

pindicator
Jul 10, 2010, 04:04 PM
I think we should vote for the reload purely for a diplomatic move.

DaveShack
Jul 10, 2010, 04:28 PM
Weird, I thought it was paused anyway to allow the team vote on the reload. I wonder who unpaused it?

azzaman333
Jul 10, 2010, 11:01 PM
Alphashard, you've done many of our turns to perfection, don't worry about something as trivial as a slip up on warrior movement. With your contributions to the team you deserve a few free passes on such things, and a lot more respect than you've been shown so far.

This has nothing to do with Alphashard. It's a general comment to anyone who is playing the turn. If you can't be careful to avoid misclicks, don't take the turn. It's a very simple thing to avoid.

Trystero
Jul 10, 2010, 11:14 PM
AlphaShard: Don't sweat it. These things happen, and Dave hadn't reloaded the save yet. (Although, I don't understand why the game wasn't paused.) I checked the game after the reload. Everything was as before, and there wasn't much to do, so I went ahead and played the turn.

Turn 59 - 1640 BC

Lord Parkin started the road on the silk tile. The WB continued toward the Arcturus clams site, and Enterprise continued back to Sirius.

Pallas moved 1NW to the other forest tile and didn't reveal too much of interest. Vesta continued SW. There is a barb warrior to her SE:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0167.jpg

Voyager went 2SW and spotted the cultural border of a barb city:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0168.jpg

================================================== ======

I would vote for Pallas to move to the hill 1SW to reveal more of the area around Arcturus on the next turn. Any attack would have to come across the river, and she'd be on a hill.

Vesta will probably be attacked by the barb, but should have OK chances on a jungle tile. If the barb instead moves N or W, I would move onto the jungle hill 1W (Recall the other barb is on the hill 2E of the copper.

Not too much changed demographics-wise, although I did notice that AMAZON has 3 cities at this point before founding the city that caused the mis-click problems.

azzaman333
Jul 10, 2010, 11:21 PM
Do you people not get it? A misclick can very easily be a big deal. We just had a reload because of a seriously bad misclick. Don't take the turns if you're going to be careless.

Trystero
Jul 10, 2010, 11:32 PM
I agree that these things can be a big deal. The AMAZON mishap was certainly an example of that. My point was that: 1. It was an accident. These things happen. I'm sure Sommerswerd didn't intend to misplace the city, and wouldn't have done so 99.99% of the time. I am sure most people are much more careful playing moves in this game than in their offline games, but accidents happen. 2. The reload eliminated the error, so I'm not going to waste time and energy getting upset about it.

azzaman333
Jul 11, 2010, 06:36 AM
Anyway, what exactly is our aim at the moment? Settle the copper, then what? It seems like we're just drifting with no real plan.

Irgy
Jul 11, 2010, 07:20 AM
Anyway, what exactly is our aim at the moment? Settle the copper, then what? It seems like we're just drifting with no real plan.

Well, my suggestion is to REX and aggressively settle all the best spots on Bode before Mavericks get to them. Build workers, settlers, and axes and spears to protect the Bode settlements.

grant2004
Jul 11, 2010, 09:56 AM
^ That's what I was thinking as well. We know we won't be fighting the Amazons so it makes sense to expand as agressively as possible towards the Mavericks so we're in the better position when the fighting starts.

azzaman333
Jul 11, 2010, 01:51 PM
Well, my suggestion is to REX and aggressively settle all the best spots on Bode before Mavericks get to them. Build workers, settlers, and axes and spears to protect the Bode settlements.

I'm much more interested in why are we REXing. What are we trying to achieve from this? Because we don't seem to have any real plan to win.

AlphaShard
Jul 11, 2010, 02:21 PM
I thought the plan was to ally with Amazons a primary ally with CDZ and Quatrona as secondary. Leaving Merlot and Mavericks as targets. Once those two are gone I believe we will be looking to the CDZ and Quatrona. I think Domination may be an option.

azzaman333
Jul 11, 2010, 03:20 PM
I thought the plan was to ally with Amazons a primary ally with CDZ and Quatrona as secondary. Leaving Merlot and Mavericks as targets. Once those two are gone I believe we will be looking to the CDZ and Quatrona. I think Domination may be an option.

That's not a plan.

Trystero
Jul 11, 2010, 04:11 PM
I'm much more interested in why are we REXing. What are we trying to achieve from this? Because we don't seem to have any real plan to win.

Why are we REXing? We have two cities. Both are on an island isolated from foreign trade and military invasion until Astronomy. Our opponents are in similar situations. Also, our island lacks strategic military resources. We have located both copper and horses on the adjacent landmass. It is to our long term strategic advantage to build as many cities as feasible while territory remains up for grabs.

REXing allows us to secure those resources and deny them to our opponents, as well as increasing our production capabilities (Bode) and facilitating commerce through cottage cities (Andromeda, or whatever we are calling it now) or foreign trade.

Since no invasion of opponent home islands is possible before Astronomy, we've developed a strong research base and entered into trade alliances to boost our research output to get us to Astronomy/Gunpowder/Steel more quickly.

Given the current state of the game, these seem like reasonable goals.

azzaman333
Jul 11, 2010, 04:15 PM
Why are we REXing? We have two cities. Both are on an island isolated from foreign trade and military invasion until Astronomy. Our opponents are in similar situations. Also, our island lacks strategic military resources. We have located both copper and horses on the adjacent landmass. It is to our long term strategic advantage to build as many cities as feasible while territory remains up for grabs.

REXing allows us to secure those resources and deny them to our opponents, as well as increasing our production capabilities (Bode) and facilitating commerce through cottage cities (Andromeda, or whatever we are calling it now) or foreign trade.

Since no invasion of opponent home islands is possible before Astronomy, we've developed a strong research base and entered into trade alliances to boost our research output to get us to Astronomy/Gunpowder/Steel more quickly.

Given the current state of the game, these seem like reasonable goals.

You're missing my point. How does REXing directly help us achieve our victory? Not that I oppose REXing, I'm just aiming to highlight the complete lack of strategic insight into what we're doing. Every single move we make has to have a purpose. Right now, it seems like we're REXing because we have nothing better to do.

Trystero
Jul 11, 2010, 04:36 PM
I understand your point, but I'm not sure how we are supposed to decide exactly how we are going to win at this point. In chess, for example, every move has a purpose as well. Usually, from the first move you are trying to control the center because this will provide you with better control of the board and more opportunities to trap your opponent and find mate. I am saying we are at the "control the center" phase.

In the more long term we have two opponents outside our alliance as possible first targets. It would behoove us to make sure we can secure as much of their territory as possible so that in the next conflict, within our trading alliance (but not with AMAZON, with whom we have a NAP) we are in a stronger position. That is the long term strategy as far as I understand it.

AlphaShard
Jul 11, 2010, 05:10 PM
I would add that claiming copper and the horse would be critical to our victory. Alot better then "nothing better to do".

pindicator
Jul 11, 2010, 06:21 PM
I understand your point, but I'm not sure how we are supposed to decide exactly how we are going to win at this point. In chess, for example, every move has a purpose as well. Usually, from the first move you are trying to control the center because this will provide you with better control of the board and more opportunities to trap your opponent and find mate. I am saying we are at the "control the center" phase.

Interesting analogy, and actually probably it is a pretty solid one. But even in chess openings there is a more distinct type of strategy than control the center. Ruy Lopez opens with some aggressive pieces towards the center but its aims are to control the light squares and use the light squares to go after the opponent. At the same time there are also some of the hypermodern openings which delay controlling the center, instead aiming to push out the opponent who moves in too quickly... I think we can all see the analogy there and it is definitely something we need to be on guard for here.

In the more long term we have two opponents outside our alliance as possible first targets. It would behoove us to make sure we can secure as much of their territory as possible so that in the next conflict, within our trading alliance (but not with AMAZON, with whom we have a NAP) we are in a stronger position. That is the long term strategy as far as I understand it.

This is a good start. It just needs some more fleshing out.
We definitely want to go after the easy targets, get more land, and then use that advantage to take out the non-AMAZON partners in our coalition. But like Azzaman, we are not talking about the "how" -- he is saying that we need to have a plan as to how we are going to do this.

Since we are all in agreement on attacking a rival, we should be asking (at least) these questions:


When do we plan on attacking? (Especially - at what point in the tech tree?)
How do we plan on attacking? (With what troops?)
Where do we plan on attacking? (Do we go for the coup de gras and take a home island? Or take more of the center?)
The answers to these questions should be driving our city placement, our micro, the units we build, the techs we research.


For example (just an example) if we plan on controlling the center the entire game and denying the center to our opponents, we may consider doing the following:


Teching military techs (Metal Casting, Iron Working, Construction, Machinery, Civil Service)
Building ancient / classic era (sword, axe, spear) units; triremes & galleys for navy. later on we add in maces, HBR, cats.
Take our troops around the center island, razing / capturing cities of civs not in our alliance that are on the center, slowing their development.


I'm more inclined to the following strategy:


Teching civic service, construction, and then bee-lining astronomy (with help from bulbs if possible)
Building an army mostly of maces & cats, then loading those onto our rushed galleons - perhaps upgrading some galleys if that is quicker than building galleons
Invading the home island of a non-coalition team.

I like it because it takes advantage of our Unique Unit, plus we have the possibility of catching a team unawares with their home island. (Think we're the only ones running a token military right now? I don't.). We can even speed up the tech rate of this plan by bringing in AMAZON, having one team rush astronomy while the other picks up the needed military techs.

Now, there are certainly other valid plans too.I know Azzaman talked about researching nukes and nuking people - or using our dikes for a late-game production advantage. That would be a reason to build economically, put as little into units as possible, and then explode for a late-game domination win. I'd love to see other ideas, either here or at the strategy thread (how we're going to win the game) that was started by Azzaman.

pindicator
Jul 11, 2010, 06:24 PM
Sorry for the wall of text above, but i need to add one more bit.

When we decide our strategy is and how we plan on wiping the other teams off the map :) , then the other questions get so much easier. When we look at settling a city, all we need to ask is "will this city contribute towards our strategy, or will it suck up hammers & expenses that will slow down our goal?" With picking a tech: "Is this part of our strategy, or helps us get to our goals quicker, or is this just a diversion even if it is good in its own right?" With our builds, our micromanagement, everything.

I hope that helps explain what azzaman is asking for, and why it is so critical we decide on one.

AlphaShard
Jul 11, 2010, 07:03 PM
Thank you for making the point much clearer Pindicator.

I certainly do think that grabbing the Pig-Clam-Copper city will add to our strategy. Also the information CDZ gave us saying that Iron was in their center may mean we in fact have Iron as well.

Irgy
Jul 11, 2010, 09:44 PM
I'm more worried that it means Mavericks may have iron even if we cut them off from copper on Bode.

Irgy
Jul 11, 2010, 10:36 PM
Re: pindicators strategy comments

I quite like the chess analogy too. To me, we're still in the opening. Ideas like going for nukes seem to me like saying "we plan to win by checkmating on the back rank with two rooks". Admittedly, my own contributions to the general strategy thread are also about as helpful as saying "We should get our pieces in good positions to put pressure on the opponents".

So, firstly, with four teams part of the ETTT, it's fairly clear that the other two are going to be the targets. Due to the geography, it makes much more sense for us to go after Mavericks, as they are our neighbours and we can take their land without creating a spread-out, split up empire.

However, we can't take their homeland until Astronomy. A corollory of that is that they can cause us a great deal of hassle with triremes until at least Optics (and, realistically, until Astronomy as well). CDZ are apparently getting Metal Casting for us so that we're at least on even terms with Maverick triremes for the moment.

So, my suggestions are to:
* Concentrate for now on getting enough of a production base. Specifically enough to win a war with a roughly one-era tech advantage.
* Direct our alliance towards getting Optics and then Astronomy with minimal detouring. With four teams contributing, there's necessarily 4 different tech paths being followed anyway. Only about one and a half teams can really contribute to an Astronomy beeline. The others can concentrate on the economy techs that will help speed up the Astronomy beeline, and the military techs that we'll want to keep ahead in.
* Capture the Maverick home island with Astronomy and a one-era military tech lead. Whether that's macemen and trebs against their longbows or rifles and cannons against their muskets I don't know.
* Settle aggressively, ensure as much as possible that we have an advantageous position, but try as much as possible to avoid open warfare, as it's unavoidable that their capacity to cause us trouble will be high until we reach Astronomy no matter how much of a lead we have on them.

A general observation: With a four-team tech alliance, gold/gem/silver starts for everyone, and our ~1500BC academy, the tech rate is just going to be crazy. I think we may even get to Astronomy before we've fully settled our own island, or at least before it's properly developed.

DaveShack
Jul 12, 2010, 12:11 AM
You're missing my point. How does REXing directly help us achieve our victory? Not that I oppose REXing, I'm just aiming to highlight the complete lack of strategic insight into what we're doing. Every single move we make has to have a purpose. Right now, it seems like we're REXing because we have nothing better to do.
Where is your contribution to the strategy then?

Maybe this thread should just be about planning short-term turns, and talk about strategy in its own thread here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9371197&postcount=27). I've taken a stab at some more big picture type stuff, mostly questions, over there.

Alltriia
Jul 12, 2010, 12:48 PM
Anyone knows if the other teams know about the ASP?

DaveShack
Jul 12, 2010, 12:51 PM
I'd expect not.

Alltriia
Jul 12, 2010, 12:53 PM
Can we ask the Amazons if they mentioned it to anyone else?

azzaman333
Jul 12, 2010, 01:55 PM
I doubt they would have.

pindicator
Jul 12, 2010, 08:09 PM
Thanks for the link to the strategy thread, dave! I'm going to move all my discussion over there as well.

AlphaShard
Jul 12, 2010, 09:12 PM
We have a new turn, I moved the boats, Voyager continuing along the coast, Enterprise returning to Sirius and the 2nd WB heading toward the Arcturus Clam.

The Mighty Vesta survived it's battle and is wounded, trying to decide if it should sit and heal (4 turns, yikes!) or join Pallas who hasn't moved yet.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=257715&stc=1&d=1278990747

I'll give a full report once I am done with our warriors. I'm tempted to fortfy since we are brining over a settler.

Irgy
Jul 12, 2010, 10:09 PM
Pallas 1SW is fairly safe, on a hill and only 1 tile that a barb could be on without being across a river (and not a tile the barb we've seen could have got to yet either).

I'm almost always inclined to sit and heal with injured warriors, 80% of times that I don't I regret it. Vesta spawnbusts pretty well where it is anyway.

Just a reminder, be careful moving the galley next turn. It should stop one space outside of Sirius and stay there, without using its other movement point. The worker and settler then walk onto the boat and be another two tiles away all on T62.

azzaman333
Jul 12, 2010, 10:23 PM
We probably don't need to fortify for 4 turns, 3 should get him to a level where the extra HP for healing that extra turn won't make a difference.

Irgy
Jul 12, 2010, 10:57 PM
It can depend what it fights though. Fighting a barb archer in a jungle, it's normally 3vs3. Even a rounding error's worth of strength loss will make about a 15% difference to the combat odds because of the way combat works, it's very sensitive to small changes around an even matchup.

I think you're right in this case though as we're not likely to see archers and will probably be on a jungle hill the next few moves, and nothing much else we're likely to face comes out as a tie.

Alltriia
Jul 13, 2010, 08:24 AM
Guys, There's also something we need to put our minds on. That hill in the middle of Sirius might pop iron when we get the tech as Quatronia sugested. The thing is we aren't even close to have access to it. We should be prepared for this beforehand(or at least as fast as possible). What's the best way to solve this? Whip a settler after this one?

I was thinkng on posting this in the micro thread, but there's a very specialized talk over there.

Have we talked about this yet? If so, disregard.

AlphaShard
Jul 13, 2010, 08:40 AM
Yes we discussed this already and placed city tags that WILL hit that hill should it pop Iron. At the time we were hoping for Copper but now it's a pretty good chance for Iron, especially since CDZ revealed they had iron in the center of their island.

Trystero
Jul 13, 2010, 11:59 AM
We have a new turn, I moved the boats, Voyager continuing along the coast, Enterprise returning to Sirius and the 2nd WB heading toward the Arcturus Clam.

The Mighty Vesta survived it's battle and is wounded, trying to decide if it should sit and heal (4 turns, yikes!) or join Pallas who hasn't moved yet.

Great! We survived our first barb encounter. I agree with healing in place for 3 turns. Also,my vote is to move Pallas 1SW onto the hill.

Trystero
Jul 13, 2010, 12:30 PM
Guys, There's also something we need to put our minds on. That hill in the middle of Sirius might pop iron when we get the tech as Quatronia sugested. The thing is we aren't even close to have access to it. We should be prepared for this beforehand(or at least as fast as possible). What's the best way to solve this? Whip a settler after this one?

I just checked in-game. If you are referring to the the hill I think you are, that hill is inside our cultural borders. Sure we can't work it, but we will have access to iron as soon as we build a mine and a road.

Also, Quatronia is supposed to be offering us IW, but I don't see that offer yet.

grant2004
Jul 13, 2010, 02:45 PM
Yeah I'm surprised by the delay in the tech being offered, but I'm sure it will arrive soon enough. I think the move to the hill makes sense as does healing in the jungle for a few turns.

AlphaShard
Jul 13, 2010, 06:40 PM
Turn 60 - 1600 BC

Lord Parkin finished road. The WB continued toward the Arcturus clams site, and Enterprise continued back to Sirius. Voyager continued along the eastern star spoke.

Pallas moved 1SW on to the Hill tile and didn't reveal too much of interest. Vesta is now healing, having servived her battle with the Barb, the Amazon's would be proud.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=257788&stc=1&d=1279067856

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=257790&stc=1&d=1279067856

Demographics:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=257789&stc=1&d=1279067856

Irgy
Jul 13, 2010, 07:20 PM
Well, my vote is to fortify Pallas in place now. As exciting as more exploration might be, the settler party will arrive in a few turns, and where he is now is the best place to secure the settling location.

Despite what I said earlier, I am tempted to move Vesta 1NW so that it actually spawn-busts the land in the NE corner between the two warriors.

Alltriia
Jul 14, 2010, 10:31 AM
I just checked in-game. If you are referring to the the hill I think you are, that hill is inside our cultural borders. Sure we can't work it, but we will have access to iron as soon as we build a mine and a road.

Also, Quatronia is supposed to be offering us IW, but I don't see that offer yet.

Ah, didn't know that. But still, wasting the hammers from that mine(altho it might be secondary) might keep us in more production disavantage even if we'll suceed in grabbing Bode's hills. Also we should consider continuing with that road to the hill with Lord Parkin right away.

And that IW delay is definitly itching. What to do? Wait one more turn and call them on it by PM(as in a urgent message)?

AlphaShard
Jul 14, 2010, 10:35 AM
Is it really that urgent? Were not going to waste the possible Iron hill, City B WILL use those hammers don't worry.

In the meanwhile we are going for the Copper-pig-clam city so we will have our Axemen and Spearmen. We'll get our IW pretty soon I am sure.

Trystero
Jul 14, 2010, 12:00 PM
Ah, didn't know that. But still, wasting the hammers from that mine(altho it might be secondary) might keep us in more production disavantage even if we'll suceed in grabbing Bode's hills. Also we should consider continuing with that road to the hill with Lord Parkin right away.

While it's true it would be better to actually work that hill. I think any settlers should be directed toward sites on Bode rather than the home island. We need to put settlers on territory that's unclaimed, then backfill.

And that IW delay is definitly itching. What to do? Wait one more turn and call them on it by PM(as in a urgent message)?

I was going to write a brief note to Quatronia about the Mavericks situation. I'll drop a subtle hint. :)

azzaman333
Jul 14, 2010, 05:42 PM
B needs to be founded by a settler from Canopus ASAP, so Canopus can focus solely on hammers.

Irgy
Jul 14, 2010, 06:57 PM
Why exactly do you think founding city B to build workers and settlers is any better than, for example, founding the pig-and-double-clam city on Bode to, well, build workers and settlers? I can see there are potentially some arguments, but none seem all that compelling to me so I'd like to know which one it is that has you so convinced.

azzaman333
Jul 14, 2010, 08:11 PM
B is easier to get up and running than anything on the other islands. B costs significantly less maintenance. B will be an excellent science city. The production cities on Bode are less important to get up and running ASAP because they wont be working cottages.

DaveShack
Jul 14, 2010, 08:16 PM
I think it is far more important to settle cities where we don't already control the land than it is where we do. A delay could mean losing the site and the game. Settling B first does nothing to forward a strategy, where settling copper+pigs is essential to the strategy of peacefully taking a piece out of Mavs.

azzaman333
Jul 14, 2010, 08:20 PM
Who's going to settle the pigs/clams site before us? Mavericks are on the other side of the spoke, and do they even have sailing yet? Our culture from creative will claim the tiles with very little effort on our part.

Also, my proposal to build a settler from Canopus doesn't delay the settler from Sirius that would be building the pigs/clam city.

DaveShack
Jul 14, 2010, 09:39 PM
Sorry, I didn't read far enough back.

Settling both on Bode and B is better than settling just one of them. ;)

Trystero
Jul 14, 2010, 09:59 PM
I like Azzaman's idea for a settler first at Canopus. It seems to work well. See my latest post in the micro thread.

Irgy
Jul 14, 2010, 10:28 PM
The point is settling on Sol is always going to be in place of settling a city on Bode. If it's not the pig-clams city it's somewhere else. Although admittedly maybe that somewhere else isn't as good as pig-clams.

I actually agree with your arguments for the most part, but I'm just going to make a few counter points anyway.

B is easier to get up and running than anything on the other islands. B costs significantly less maintenance. B will be an excellent science city. The production cities on Bode are less important to get up and running ASAP because they wont be working cottages.

Which city is easier to get up and running just depends on where our workers are. It will get set up sooner, but then again every settler it builds will need to get transported elsewhere.

Less maintenance, but better trade routes. Once we have more cities on Bode than Sol the traderoutes thing will flip around though in favour even more strongly of settling Sol.

I completely disagree that cottage cities are more urgent to get out than production. We need production to build more settlers, workers, and military to support our REX. Right now the one thing we don't need any more of is commerce. The beaurocracy-academy-cottages capital is going to have all the research we need. We're not going to suffer from falling behind in research. On the other hand we are going to suffer from not expanding as quickly as our competitors.


Having said all that though, now that I realise that the "next" worker you wanted to replace was the one we're building on T63 rather than the one we started on T58, I'm coming around to the idea.

Trystero
Jul 14, 2010, 11:06 PM
I should amend my argument somewhat and state that although I think it is better to build a settler after the worker in Canopus, I'm not sold on the idea that we should use that settler to build a city on Sol. I would rather it get sent to Bode or the horse site on Andromeda, but I'll look at the argument for site B.

azzaman333
Jul 14, 2010, 11:54 PM
Less maintenance, but better trade routes. Once we have more cities on Bode than Sol the traderoutes thing will flip around though in favour even more strongly of settling Sol.

2 cities on each island means at worst we will have 4:commerce: from trade routes in every city.

Trystero
Jul 15, 2010, 12:32 AM
OK - I logged in and checked, and we haven't been offered IW yet, but AMAZON has it. I'll send a gentle reminder.

Also, AlphaShard, I think you can end the turn anytime. We aren't really waiting for anything, and we can except IW after the turn ends. Not that I'm anxious to get that settler to the Arcturus site... :)

The tech situation also reminds me that it would be nice to get an estimate on when Monarchy will be available. We could use the whip to speed production if we revolt to Slavery and HR. If we found Confucianism we might want to run OR soon too.

Trystero
Jul 16, 2010, 10:56 AM
Turn 62 started. Pallas also won her barb fight, but will take 7 turns to fully heal:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0172.jpg

It seems safe enough to heal in place and fogbust where she is and retreat if an approaching barb warrior is spotted. Any dissenting opinions?

grant2004
Jul 16, 2010, 03:46 PM
I agree with that, fogbusting from there is more efective than retreating to the forest. If another barb comes before she's healed up there are good tiles to run to in either direction, and it's best not to waste the turn moving if we don't have to.

pindicator
Jul 16, 2010, 06:59 PM
What do people think about moving the other warrior (um... the one not named Pallas) one tile NW? I don't think we want to see a barb spawn in those 3 tiles along the north coast. Low odds of it happening perhaps, but better safe than sorry.

Trystero
Jul 16, 2010, 07:57 PM
Vesta is almost fully healed (1.8/2 hp), so I see no risk in moving her 1NW to prevent barbs from spawning near the Arcturus site. Once the settler arrives and Arcturus is founded (in 3 turns), she can move to the SW to explore.

grant2004
Jul 16, 2010, 08:27 PM
Yeah, the move sounds reasonable if she's that close to full health. I wouldn't move her if a hidden barb would have a good shot at killing her, but I feel confident enough that she'd win defending a jungle hill at 1.8 str.

Trystero
Jul 16, 2010, 10:19 PM
Turn 62 - 1520 BC

Pallas defeated a barbarian warrior and fortified in place to heal (7 turns). Vesta moved to the jungle hill (after screenshot was taken).

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0173.jpg

Settler finished in Sirius and boarded galley along with Lord Parkin. Galley departed for Arcturus site. Sirius started building a worker (8 turns).

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0174.jpg

Voyager moved 1SW + 1S:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0176.jpg

================================================== =========

Current status relative to AMAZON:

We are trailing in expansion:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0175.jpg

But benefit from a Amazonian trade route:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0177.jpg

EDIT: Also, AMAZON completed The Great Wall this turn.

Trystero
Jul 18, 2010, 11:38 AM
A new turn is up. A barb warrior appeared 1NE of Vesta. Since she is on a jungle hill, and we don't want that barb hanging around the Arcturus site, I suggest we leave Vesta where she is:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0179.jpg

Alltriia
Jul 18, 2010, 07:20 PM
And what about crossing the river? 1W. What can spawn more barbs, but we would be in a better place to defend. Even if they cross before attaking us, we'll simply just cross again.

azzaman333
Jul 18, 2010, 07:28 PM
We have very good odds to win, no point moving.

1889
Jul 18, 2010, 09:14 PM
It's hard to be sure of the odds when we're not at full strength though. I think the benefits of winning may not ballance the costs of loosing. Saving our warrior to defend the new city may be more valuable since the barb warrior probably doesn't pose that much of a threat any way.

pindicator
Jul 18, 2010, 09:29 PM
Don't we get some HP healed before the barb moves anyway? And since Vespa is at 1.8 already that should put him near 2.0 -- on top of Jungle & Hill, I say leave him there

DaveShack
Jul 18, 2010, 10:16 PM
OK, it's getting a little weird. Why haven't any of our allies given us IW yet? Are we sure we're not getting played here?

Trystero
Jul 18, 2010, 11:22 PM
Don't we get some HP healed before the barb moves anyway? And since Vespa is at 1.8 already that should put him near 2.0 -- on top of Jungle & Hill, I say leave him there

I tested it in World Builder. If we are at full strength, the barb's odds are 3%. In several instances the barb moved away rather than attack. I think we want to get rid of that barb before the settler arrives. I vote for staying in place.

OK, it's getting a little weird. Why haven't any of our allies given us IW yet? Are we sure we're not getting played here?

I really think this is a result of the fact that the team that researched the tech was not in contact with us when they joined the ETTA, and it just slipped Quatronia's mind, or they don't have particularly good communication between the diplomat and the turnplayer. I don't think anything more nefarious is going on. I've been pretty deferential in my requests to Quatronia, as well. As I said in the diplomacy thread, I will directly request it before we distribute Currency.

grant2004
Jul 19, 2010, 05:44 AM
Yeah, I doubt they're playing us, if they are they should have waited longer, because if they show their hand at IW we'll be in a good position to make a 3 way tech alliance with Merlot and the Mavericks, catch them up on techs, and start out-teching the ETTA within a short ammount of time, before they have the potential to really hurt us. I imagine Trystero is right about the cause of the delay, and I'd suggest that we should send a message to all of our ETTA partners reminding them that we don't have IW yet and requesting it directly from the next player to enter the game. The last thing we want to do is create an incident by delaying currency on purpose, in response to a mistake. We should give them a clear and direct statement of the current problem before doing anything hostile.

I agree with leaving the warrior in place, that's a great defensive tile I doubt we'd have a problem winning.

One more note. Since we are the top team in tech rate maybe we should consider scaling back a little now that we're in a tech trading alliance (once this IW issue is worked out of course) We can reduce our tech rate and still contribute a fair ammount of beakers to our allies, while also building a gold reserve for future deficit research or upgrades.

Trystero
Jul 19, 2010, 11:34 AM
The majority seem to agree with leaving Vesta where she is, so I ended the turn

Turn 63 -1480 AD

Our 2nd worker was completed in Canopus and is moving to finish the cottage 1N2W of Sirius. Canopus is now building a settler (8 turns).

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0180.jpg

Vesta is fortified on a jungle hill with a barbarian to her NE. Pallas is still fortified and healing near the Arcturus site. The galley with the settler and Lord Parkin will reach the Arcturus site in 2 turns.

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0179.jpg

Voyager continued around the SE arm of the great star and should be approaching CDZland.

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0181.jpg

We should give them a clear and direct statement of the current problem before doing anything hostile.

How about something like this:

Dear ETTA members,

This is just a brief note to remind you that we have not as yet received Iron Working from an ETTA member although it was researched a few turns ago. We believe this is simply an oversight owing to the fact that we were not in contact with CDZland at the time this technology was distributed. We are now at a point where we are making decisions about where to found new cities and how best to employ our workers, and we would therefore request that someone gift us this technology in-game as soon as possible (this turn). We feel it best not to make these sorts of requests through in-game diplomatic channels since the nature of diplomacy would be obvious to our opponents. Many thanks for your help with matter.

Sincerely,

Trystero, Sirian Diplomat

AlphaShard
Jul 19, 2010, 12:19 PM
Just a thought how about we take longer turns until we get our IW? Doesn't hurt anyone or cause incidents and we get some time to get the Tech promised to us. Especially if Quatronia is getting ready to start a war on Merlot already.

I'd like to get Vesta to the Arcturus site to protect the worker and alow it to get improvements done.

Alltriia
Jul 19, 2010, 12:24 PM
Sounds good. Think it would be better to talk with Irgy since he's mentioning it to the Amazons, too? So that we wouldn't sound too desynchronized.

EDIT: How many turns a unit stays idle after disembarking? Is it available right after?

Trystero
Jul 19, 2010, 01:42 PM
Just a thought how about we take longer turns until we get our IW? Doesn't hurt anyone or cause incidents and we get some time to get the Tech promised to us. Especially if Quatronia is getting ready to start a war on Merlot already.

Sure, but we don't have any free worker turns until turn 70, since we want to cottage tiles for the 2 scientists in Sirius to work as soon as the GS is done and the Academy built. So I don't think having IW would change any of the next few turns.

I'd like to get Vesta to the Arcturus site to protect the worker and alow it to get improvements done.

This seems reasonable to me. There are a lot of barbs around at the moment. Providing some defense for the worker seems prudent, at least until Pallas is fully healed.

The barb activity reinforces my belief that we should get the horse city up and running sooner, before barb axes start showing up.

Trystero
Jul 19, 2010, 01:44 PM
EDIT: How many turns a unit stays idle after disembarking? Is it available right after?

A unit is idle the turn it disembarks. It can move normally the next turn. This is why we are going to disembark onto the forested tile, for defensive purposes.

Irgy
Jul 19, 2010, 05:17 PM
The galley with the settler and Lord Parkin will reach the Arcturus site in 2 turns.

No, the settler and Lord Parkin will disembark from the galley *next* turn. You will have to manually select them to do so, there won't be a reminder, so watch out for it as an extra thing to do.

How about something like this:
Dear ETTA members,

This is just a brief note to remind you that we have not as yet received Iron Working from an ETTA member although it was researched a few turns ago. We believe this is simply an oversight owing to the fact that we were not in contact with CDZland at the time this technology was distributed. We are now at a point where we are making decisions about where to found new cities and how best to employ our workers, and we would therefore request that someone gift us this technology in-game as soon as possible (this turn). We feel it best not to make these sorts of requests through in-game diplomatic channels since the nature of diplomacy would be obvious to our opponents. Many thanks for your help with matter.

Sincerely,

Trystero, Sirian Diplomat


It's fine, the only thing I'll say is that I was considering writing a four-way email to discuss the tech path of the ETTT, and was planning on adding a whinge about IW to that email. It seems silly that the first four way email that gets sent is a complaint.

A unit is idle the turn it disembarks. It can move normally the next turn. This is why we are going to disembark onto the forested tile, for defensive purposes.

Defensive purposes? It's a settler and a worker, if there's a barb then a +50% bonus won't save them. We can fortunately see all of the adjacent tiles though so it's safe anyway. We're offloading there because it saves us a turn, by offloading diagonally next turn then moving and settling the turn after.

The barb activity reinforces my belief that we should get the horse city up and running sooner, before barb axes start showing up.

Axemen are perfectly good at protecting us from barb axes. They can't attack into them, but barbarians have a convenient habit of attacking you if you fortify on a hill or forest next to them. It is better to have chariots than not, but I still don't see it as a higher priority than blocking land from Mavericks.

Irgy
Jul 19, 2010, 05:20 PM
I'd like to get Vesta to the Arcturus site to protect the worker and alow it to get improvements done.

Vesta does a better job of protecting the worker by spawn-busting where he is than he would by moving somewhere else.

Trystero
Jul 19, 2010, 05:55 PM
No, the settler and Lord Parkin will disembark from the galley *next* turn. You will have to manually select them to do so, there won't be a reminder, so watch out for it as an extra thing to do.

Whoops. Yes, and this is specified in the micro plan, which I consult before playing every turn. I must have been recalling the galley movement from the beginning of the turn. Nothing is automated. We have no pending go-to orders, so the turn player would have to move the galley to the offloading site.



It's fine, the only thing I'll say is that I was considering writing a four-way email to discuss the tech path of the ETTT, and was planning on adding a whinge about IW to that email. It seems silly that the first four way email that gets sent is a complaint.

OK, it could be incorporated into that message rather than sent separately. But this has been an issue for several turns and my impression was that we wanted this resolved soon. FWIW, I thought the note I composed was more of an explicit reminder or request for action, rather than much of a complaint.



Defensive purposes? It's a settler and a worker, if there's a barb then a +50% bonus won't save them. We can fortunately see all of the adjacent tiles though so it's safe anyway. We're offloading there because it saves us a turn, by offloading diagonally next turn then moving and settling the turn after.

Ack. I had so many concerns about fortifying warriors on jungle hills in my head, I was writing as if there was a warrior with them. Of course those units are helpless against barbs. I even went through this micro with Irgy. :crazyeye:

Vesta does a better job of protecting the worker by spawn-busting where he is than he would by moving somewhere else.

While I agree this is OK for the next few turns until one of the two warriors is fully-healed, I thought we'd decided that one of the warriors should explore while the other protects Arcturus. Given the increased barb activity, are we now switching our preference to have both warriors defend Arcturus until it builds an axeman for exploration?

Irgy
Jul 19, 2010, 06:19 PM
OK, it could be incorporated into that message rather than sent separately. But this has been an issue for several turns and my impression was that we wanted this resolved soon. FWIW, I thought the note I composed was more of an explicit reminder or request for action, rather than much of a complaint.

Well, I'll get on with writing the tech planning email then so we can still resolve it soon.

What you wrote wasn't phrased as a complaint. I still see it as a complaint no matter how it's phrased though.

While I agree this is OK for the next few turns until one of the two warriors is fully-healed, I thought we'd decided that one of the warriors should explore while the other protects Arcturus. Given the increased barb activity, are we now switching our preference to have both warriors defend Arcturus until it builds an axeman for exploration?

Well, I am anyway. I feel no rush to see what's at the tip of Bode, and Arcturus needs all the protection it can get.

Trystero
Jul 19, 2010, 06:53 PM
Well, I'll get on with writing the tech planning email then so we can still resolve it soon.

What you wrote wasn't phrased as a complaint. I still see it as a complaint no matter how it's phrased though.

But we are complaining. :) It occurs to me, that it might be simplest just to request IW from Quatronia in-game through the diplomacy screen. Sure, Everybody will know we got something from them via trade, but that would hardly be much of a secret at this point. Regardless, I think we can wait for IW through email diplomacy, since it doesn't affect the next few turns.



Well, I am anyway. I feel no rush to see what's at the tip of Bode, and Arcturus needs all the protection it can get.

I'm fine with this, as well. I was just pointing out that this deviates from the consensus when we last discussed (in broad terms) what to do with the warriors. Granted, circumstances have changed, and we should adjust our plans accordingly. And although I'm not very interested in the tip of Bode, I'd like to know what's going on on the southern side, so we can keep abreast of Mavericks moves.

AlphaShard
Jul 19, 2010, 07:37 PM
If we sent Lord Parkin over with the settler, how would he not have something to do? Since this is such a critical game I'd rather not leave our defenses to chance. As soon as Arcturus is settled the worker can work the Copper and/or Pig.

AlphaShard
Jul 19, 2010, 08:11 PM
Turn 64 -1440 AD

Currency completed, Code of Laws begun.

Our 2nd worker, now named Trystero, is to working on the cottage 1N2W of Sirius. Canopus is now building a settler (7 turns).

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=258392&stc=1&d=1279591423

Vesta is moving toward Arcturus site, moved 1NW onto a hill. Pallas is still fortified and healing near the Arcturus site. The galley with the settler and Lord Parkin have reached the shoreline, and deposited them onto the forest. Also Incense can be seen to the south of where Vesta was.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=258391&stc=1&d=1279591423

Voyager continued around the SE arm of the great star and should be approaching CDZland.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=258393&stc=1&d=1279591423

Demographics:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=258394&stc=1&d=1279591446

Please check Espionage (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9396577&postcount=146) thread for additional Powergraph information.

I also didn't end turn since were waiting for IW, noticed that Quatronia has ended their turn.

Irgy
Jul 19, 2010, 08:20 PM
Also Incense can be seen to the south of where Vesta was.

That's odd, has that been visible the whole time?

Have we revealed the equivalent square on Anjennida?

AlphaShard
Jul 19, 2010, 08:26 PM
I am not sure how long it's been visible, perhaps when Vesta walked by the lake there it was revealed. I haven't seen any other Incense but I LOVE that it's on a plain, instead of freaking Desert.

Trystero
Jul 19, 2010, 08:37 PM
Our 2nd worker, now named Trystero, is to working on the cottage 1N2W of Sirius. Canopus is now building a settler (7 turns).

Thanks AlphaShard. I don't mean to appear overly modest, but shouldn't we follow the order established here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=367675)?

Vesta is moving toward Arcturus site, moved 1NW onto a hill. Pallas is still fortified and healing near the Arcturus site. The galley with the settler and Lord Parkin have reached the shoreline, and deposited them onto the forest. Also Incense can be seen to the south of where Vesta was.

OK - now I'm a bit confused. Weren't we just discussing leaving Vesta on the jungle hill to fogbust? Also, did she actually fight the barb warrior? If not it might still be in the area. We should watch out for that.

And, yeah. I don't know how that tile got revealed, or how I didn't notice it.

I also didn't end turn since were waiting for IW, noticed that Quatronia has ended their turn.

As I said before, I don't think it's that big a deal since IW doesn't affect anything for 4 or 5 turns. You can end the turn whenever. Merlot usually takes forever to end their turn anyways.

Irgy
Jul 19, 2010, 09:35 PM
OK - now I'm a bit confused. Weren't we just discussing leaving Vesta on the jungle hill to fogbust?

In fact, weren't we right in the middle of this discussion just as Vesta was moved? Maybe that's the problem, Alphashard was possibly in the process of making the move while we were having the discussion?

pindicator
Jul 19, 2010, 10:45 PM
I'm sure it has to do more with tile assignments, but we only have a 1 beaker improvement after Currency came in? At least, I hope it has to do with tiles worked! :crazyeye:

Regarding the settler being built in Canopus: From what we see right now, I would advocate a city in 1 of 2 locations:
1. 'City d' -- the Horse city location on Andromeda. Taking control of another strategic resource, and it is a very nice commerce city location. Plus there are several forests available to get infrastructure going. The downside to this location is that we need to make more military to defend further out, especially since Amazon has the Great Wall -- all barbs on Andromeda will head to us.
2. 'City B' on the mainland. It may not be spectacular, but it has some notable plusses: Lots of forests for quick development, already in a secure location so we do not need to create more military, in a location that is already within our existing supply lines -- in other words, we do not need to worry about defense, and logistics are far better than another off-site island. But are these bigger plusses than horses and claiming more land?

Trystero
Jul 19, 2010, 11:23 PM
In fact, weren't we right in the middle of this discussion just as Vesta was moved? Maybe that's the problem, Alphashard was possibly in the process of making the move while we were having the discussion?

Yeah, that's probably what happened. I logged-in to check the turn log, Vesta did indeed win the fight with minimal damage, apparently (1.8/2 hp). After some thought, I agree with AlphaShard's plan. With all the hills, we won't see a barb until it's one tile away. Next turn, I think Vesta should move to the copper hill and heal there while defending the worker.

I'm sure it has to do more with tile assignments, but we only have a 1 beaker improvement after Currency came in? At least, I hope it has to do with tiles worked! :crazyeye:

Well, we only have two cities at the moment. I don't think Currency affects yield from tiles, just trade routes.

azzaman333
Jul 20, 2010, 01:25 AM
Yeah, that's probably what happened. I logged-in to check the turn log, Vesta did indeed win the fight with minimal damage, apparently (1.8/2 hp). After some thought, I agree with AlphaShard's plan. With all the hills, we won't see a barb until it's one tile away. Next turn, I think Vesta should move to the copper hill and heal there while defending the worker.

We'd fogbust considerable more tiles if Vesta was on the Jungle hill, and the jungle hill is much better to defend on.

Irgy
Jul 20, 2010, 02:16 AM
We'd fogbust considerable more tiles if Vesta was on the Jungle hill, and the jungle hill is much better to defend on.

For once, I completely agree with azzaman.

We'll do a much better job of avoiding barbarians by not letting them spawn in the first place than trying to fight them afterwards.

Also, this makes a start at protecting the territory around the pig-clam-clam site which we are likely to want to settle soon.

Trystero
Jul 20, 2010, 02:31 AM
You mean move back to the hill Vesta was last turn, or the hill 1S of the current location? In either case, my concern is that the worker would have to retreat if a barb approached from the south (or SW), delaying getting the copper hooked up. I agree that where Vesta was last turn is a better fogbusting location, I'm just wondering whether our priority is defending the worker to finish the mine sooner or fogbusting.

AlphaShard
Jul 20, 2010, 04:46 AM
In fact, weren't we right in the middle of this discussion just as Vesta was moved? Maybe that's the problem, Alphashard was possibly in the process of making the move while we were having the discussion?

I was reading the discussion, I wanted to make sure our Worker would be allowed to work the pig and Copper we have. The Barb warriors, unlike the animals, don't care about the culture borders. I mean besides the fog busting they will walk in and I rather have two protectors there then one. The problem is I don't think we have enough warriros yet to fogbust 100%. Even if we leave Vesta where it was there is still more fog that a Barb warrior can come from.

azzaman333
Jul 20, 2010, 05:27 AM
Barbarians won't walk into our borders without something triggering it.

AlphaShard
Jul 20, 2010, 05:36 AM
Barbarians won't walk into our borders without something triggering it.


Really? Then how come I lost a game by being overrun by Barbarians? They had NO problem walking into my borders and never avoided coming in, wrecking my improvements and attacking my cities.

Trystero
Jul 20, 2010, 10:52 AM
Barbarians won't walk into our borders without something triggering it.

Yes, but it depends what the triggers are in this case. According to this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7461350&postcount=6) , one of the triggers is:

Barbs will ALWAYS enter your borders if they can attack one of your units directly (--> watch your Workers!).

The copper Lord Parkin will be improving will be on the border until Arcturus gets it's first border pop. I'll have to check in a test game when that is, but this suggests to me that we either 1) keep Vesta at the copper until the improvement is finished or the border pops, or 2) have the worker retreat if barbs approach (could slow improvement).

I'll have to look at that thread more carefully to see what other conditions trigger barb entry.

AlphaShard
Jul 20, 2010, 10:55 AM
So your saying that if we take the units away and outside the culture border they won't go into the city even if there is no units in it? That doesn't seem right.

Trystero
Jul 20, 2010, 11:08 AM
There are other factors that trigger barb entry:

B) NumCities > 3*NumPlayersAlive:
The restrictions for the missions are lifted to

* pillage on the 3rd turn
* attack city on the second turn
* If the barbs have calculated AREAAI_OFFENSIVE for their AreaAI (huge numbers of ATTACK barb units, most likely after random event; normally it's AREAAI_MASSING) they will straight target their chosen city without any such restrictions.

I think this means that if the average number of cities per civ is >3 then the barbs will enter your borders to attack a city if they can reach it in 2 turns, or an improvement if they can reach it in 3 turns. I don't think we've crossed this threshold yet.

Edit: I checked a test game, and Arcturus' borders pop on turn 70.

AlphaShard
Jul 20, 2010, 09:19 PM
I asked for IW in the trade window. Might as well end turn since were the last to do so?

Trystero
Jul 20, 2010, 10:09 PM
Did you offer everyone Currency? I couldn't tell when I logged in.

Really the only thing to debate this turn is where to move Vesta. You didn't mention that she has earned a combat promotion. Woodsman I seems a reasonable choice if we aren't going to upgrade to an axe or spear. Otherwise I'd suggest Combat I. We could also delay promotion until we need to decide, or want the extra healing.

Edit: Here is the current situation:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0182.jpg

I suggest moving Vesta 1S to the jungle hill. This isn't the optimal spawnbusting spot (which is 1SE), but puts her adjacent to worker should a barb warrior appear to the south.

azzaman333
Jul 20, 2010, 11:29 PM
Really? Then how come I lost a game by being overrun by Barbarians? They had NO problem walking into my borders and never avoided coming in, wrecking my improvements and attacking my cities.

Because you don't understand the mechanics behind it.

Yes, but it depends what the triggers are in this case. According to this post (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7461350&postcount=6) , one of the triggers is:



The copper Lord Parkin will be improving will be on the border until Arcturus gets it's first border pop. I'll have to check in a test game when that is, but this suggests to me that we either 1) keep Vesta at the copper until the improvement is finished or the border pops, or 2) have the worker retreat if barbs approach (could slow improvement).

As I understand it, that means the barbarian has to be able to attack the worker that turn.

Also, that's exactly what I meant by something triggering it. So, once the 19th city is built on the world, we have to worry much more about barbarians.

Trystero
Jul 21, 2010, 12:07 AM
As I understand it, that means the barbarian has to be able to attack the worker that turn.

Yes, that's correct.

One other issue to consider this turn: If we choose a warrior as a first build, those hammers must go into a spearman once the copper is hooked up. This isn't a huge investment (5 hammers total), but if we aren't going to build a spearman relatively soon, we might want to put the hammers into something else

azzaman333
Jul 21, 2010, 12:09 AM
If we didn't have hunting, we wouldn't have that problem. :mischief:

However, if we don't build a spearman after the axeman (?) the hammers will start to decay fairly quickly. (after 10 turns of not building it IIRC)

Trystero
Jul 21, 2010, 12:18 AM
Yeah, if we aren't going to build the spearman right after the axeman we should build whatever that planned second build is going to be rather than a warrior.

So basically we need to decide what we are going to build second first. :crazyeye:

Irgy
Jul 21, 2010, 12:30 AM
If we didn't have hunting, we wouldn't have that problem. :mischief:

If we had archery (do we have archery yet? I have a feeling we still don't, but you'd think one of the four teams would have researched it) we wouldn't have as much of a problem either, as we could just build an archer in the first place. An archer is worth the extra cost over a warrior for actually being able to win a fight and therefore useful for something other than spawn busting.

Having Hunting but not Archery is just this silly middle ground.

Anyway, given what we've got, I don't see what's wrong with building a spearman. I'd want to build another military unit next in Arcturus, as there's a lot of land we want to take control of. If we have an axeman already then a spearman seems like a good choice.

Trystero
Jul 21, 2010, 12:35 AM
Yes we have Archery! I think building an archer (before and) after the axeman would be a good idea.

Edit: You can see our relatively current tech situation in the last image of this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9359017&postcount=60) post.

AlphaShard
Jul 21, 2010, 04:58 AM
I didn't select any promotions because I know there is a big deal about that, Since we have a Barb issue it would be good to do Woodsman or Strength one.

I was also not certain which tile we wanted to upgrade first (Copper or Pig) I saw arguements for both.

Irgy
Jul 21, 2010, 05:05 AM
As far as I understand we settled on copper. Not sure if the iron in the centre would change that, but copper helps us get military our sooner, while pigs just help us grow to pointlessly work unimproved tiles. Although, apparently will be able to revolt to HR and Slavery in about four or five turns, so that opens up the possibility of whipping an axeman or archer to consider as well.

azzaman333
Jul 21, 2010, 05:08 AM
Copper first. Whipping without a granary is inefficient.

grant2004
Jul 21, 2010, 05:36 AM
I agree copper first we want the production first, and I'd lean towards woodsman for the upgrade. I tend to go that way with exploring warriors on the off chance that they accumulate enough exp to get woodsman 2 and the double move.

One thing I mentioned earlier but didn't see a response to. What do you guys think about lowering our tech rate and accumulating some gold? We know we're out producing our allies in terms of beakers, and this gap will only grow wider when the academy is finished. I feel we can still contribute a fair ammount to the alliance at a lower tech rate, while also accumulating some gold which we can use for upgrades, or for deficit research after the alliance splits up and we need to get ahead of the other half.

AlphaShard
Jul 21, 2010, 05:47 AM
I agree that Woodsman is good for Fogbusting as well since we have so much jungle as well.

As for lowering our gold we still have enough to run a deficet for a few more turns yet, though I do think we will be doing that eventually I just think were not at that point yet.

Irgy
Jul 21, 2010, 06:17 AM
The only thing I'll say about the promotion is that there's no real need to take it unless we particularly need to heal this turn. My understand of best practise is to save it until the turn before we're attacked. If we get another then the double movement is worth getting sooner, but otherwise for all we know he won't see combat again until he's promoted to a rifleman. We'll always get a turn's warning of an attack (from barbs anyway), so there's no harm in putting it off.

azzaman333
Jul 21, 2010, 06:28 AM
I agree copper first we want the production first, and I'd lean towards woodsman for the upgrade. I tend to go that way with exploring warriors on the off chance that they accumulate enough exp to get woodsman 2 and the double move.

One thing I mentioned earlier but didn't see a response to. What do you guys think about lowering our tech rate and accumulating some gold? We know we're out producing our allies in terms of beakers, and this gap will only grow wider when the academy is finished. I feel we can still contribute a fair ammount to the alliance at a lower tech rate, while also accumulating some gold which we can use for upgrades, or for deficit research after the alliance splits up and we need to get ahead of the other half.

It's better to drop the science rate after completing a tech, than mid-tech.

Irgy
Jul 21, 2010, 07:33 AM
One thing I mentioned earlier but didn't see a response to. What do you guys think about lowering our tech rate and accumulating some gold? We know we're out producing our allies in terms of beakers, and this gap will only grow wider when the academy is finished. I feel we can still contribute a fair ammount to the alliance at a lower tech rate, while also accumulating some gold which we can use for upgrades, or for deficit research after the alliance splits up and we need to get ahead of the other half.

I think it's better to finish Code of Laws at full speed, to ensure the religion (Mavericks might still nab it from us). After that, sure, save some cash. We'll need to in fact because we'll run out before we get to the next tech. I'm all for binary science myself, meaning either 0% or 100%, mostly for the flexibility to change our minds on what we're targeting.

Trystero
Jul 21, 2010, 02:42 PM
First off, I checked the game and we do have iron on the plains hill.

We need to decide a few things so AlphaShard can finish this turn:

Arcturus tile improvement: Lord Parkin should mine the copper. This was worked out in a test game, and allows us to hook up metal the fastest. We need to build cottages for the scientists in Sirius to work before we mine the iron, so the copper is the best source of metal, and it gives Arcturus a good hammer tile. (As an aside to AlphaShard, and anyone else, the current plans for the next few turns are in the first post of the Micro Plan thread.)

Arcturus first build: The Micro Plan thread calls for a warrior, but as we discussed in this thread, those hammers would go to a spearman when the copper is hooked up (when the mine is done, since it is connected by a river). I would vote for an Archer until the copper is mined, and then an Axeman followed by finishing the Archer. If we build the Archer first, it would finish on turn 75, but it would take about 6 more turns for the Axeman after that. If we switch mid-build to an Axeman, he will be completed on turn 77. I think it better to get an Axeman out sooner.

Where to put Vesta: As I argued above I think the jungle hill 1S of her current position is best until the first border pop, since she can both spawnbust around Arcturus and move to defend the worker should a barb appear to the south. I think we should save the promotion until we need the healing, or have a better long term plan for her.

Longer term issues we should start thinking about:

Where to settle next: We are currently building a settler in Canopus and will build another in Sirius after the worker. This will give us settlers on turns 71 and 77. As much as I’ve argued that the horse site would be a good idea, I think the next two cities should be at site “B” (the silk tile) on Sol and the clams/pig site on Bode. The reason for this is that both those locations will have resources in place to get the cities up and running faster. In particular, since The Amazons have built the Great Wall, any city on Andromeda will be subject to barb harassment . I think we want to get an Axeman to the horse site first to spawnbust and secure the location. In contrast, we already have 2 (and soon 3) warriors on Bode to help with defense. I have not thoroughly tested this, but my current thinking is the next city should go at the B site. This would let us work the iron hill, which we are going to improve anyway, and allow us to hurry improvements with chopping.

When to revolt to Slavery/HR (and OR?): We should get Monarchy from Amazon on turn 68. I think we should delay the revolt at least until we finish CoL (turn 69), so we can assure ourselves the religion, and probably not until the first settler is in transit (turn 71). If we do found Confucianism, we should consider adopting OR relatively soon for the 25% hammer bonus to constructing buildings, of which we’ve built none to date.

City specialization: Canopus and Arcturus both seem like good production cities, and Sirius seems like a good hybrid/Bureaucracy capital. The Bode pigs/clams site could be a great person farm (which we could save for post-alliance bulbing) or a commerce site. The horse city would be a good commerce city.

Irgy
Jul 21, 2010, 04:37 PM
Arcturus tile improvement: Lord Parkin should mine the copper. This was worked out in a test game, and allows us to hook up metal the fastest. We need to build cottages for the scientists in Sirius to work before we mine the iron, so the copper is the best source of metal, and it gives Arcturus a good hammer tile. (As an aside to AlphaShard, and anyone else, the current plans for the next few turns are in the first post of the Micro Plan thread.)

Sorry, I kind of reopened the debate here because a couple of things had changed - the iron, and the chance to revolt to HR+Slavery. I agree with everyone else about copper first though.

Arcturus first build: The Micro Plan thread calls for a warrior, but as we discussed in this thread, those hammers would go to a spearman when the copper is hooked up (when the mine is done, since it is connected by a river). I would vote for an Archer until the copper is mined, and then an Axeman followed by finishing the Archer. If we build the Archer first, it would finish on turn 75, but it would take about 6 more turns for the Axeman after that. If we switch mid-build to an Axeman, he will be completed on turn 77. I think it better to get an Axeman out sooner.

I think the archer on 75 is better than the axe on 77. An archer is almost as good as an axe for protecting the copper, while both are much better than the warriors we have, so a couple of turns sooner is more important to me. I don't think it likely matters much though.

Where to put Vesta: As I argued above I think the jungle hill 1S of her current position is best until the first border pop, since she can both spawnbust around Arcturus and move to defend the worker should a barb appear to the south. I think we should save the promotion until we need the healing, or have a better long term plan for her.

Sounds good.

Where to settle next: We are currently building a settler in Canopus and will build another in Sirius after the worker. This will give us settlers on turns 71 and 77. As much as I’ve argued that the horse site would be a good idea, I think the next two cities should be at site “B” (the silk tile) on Sol and the clams/pig site on Bode. The reason for this is that both those locations will have resources in place to get the cities up and running faster. In particular, since The Amazons have built the Great Wall, any city on Andromeda will be subject to barb harassment . I think we want to get an Axeman to the horse site first to spawnbust and secure the location. In contrast, we already have 2 (and soon 3) warriors on Bode to help with defense. I have not thoroughly tested this, but my current thinking is the next city should go at the B site. This would let us work the iron hill, which we are going to improve anyway, and allow us to hurry improvements with chopping.

I second all of this. I like B first more for the fact that we want more protection for the pigs/clam site than we'll have on T71.

When to revolt to Slavery/HR (and OR?): We should get Monarchy from Amazon on turn 68. I think we should delay the revolt at least until we finish CoL (turn 69), so we can assure ourselves the religion, and probably not until the first settler is in transit (turn 71). If we do found Confucianism, we should consider adopting OR relatively soon for the 25% hammer bonus to constructing buildings, of which we’ve built none to date.

T71 sounds good to me. I suggest we revolt into the following four civics in two revolts:
HR, OR, Slavery, Beaurocracy
Plus a third revolt for confucianism.

Now obviously we don't have Beaurocracy yet, so we need to decide which of the other three can wait. If we're building workers, settlers and military, then OR can wait. If we're not going to get above our happy caps anywhere anyway then HR can wait. If we have no plans to whip anywhere, then Slavery can wait.

I actually think all three of those factors are probably true, so it's a matter of which on is the most true.

City specialization: Canopus and Arcturus both seem like good production cities, and Sirius seems like a good hybrid/Bureaucracy capital. The Bode pigs/clams site could be a great person farm (which we could save for post-alliance bulbing) or a commerce site. The horse city would be a good commerce city.[/QUOTE]

Pigs/clams is about as good a production city as you'll ever get. Food resources and grass hills is perfect. I'm happy to convert it to the GP farm later on, but for the early game it's best for production. Commerce from Sirius will carry us through on its own for a long time to come, we only need to set up ther commerce cities for the long term. I think every city on Anjennida is going to be commerce, it's all good cottage land but without a lot of food resources. Canopus is something of a hybrid, I'd like to keep the cottages on the flood plains and it will be working the gold, so it's worth building commerce buildings there, but it will have a lot of production capability as well.

AlphaShard
Jul 21, 2010, 05:47 PM
I'm finishing up the turn now that I have consensus on getting copper up first.

I would also like to get City B up first as well. I am planing on moving Enterprise along the Bode coast to reveal more land.

Irgy
Jul 21, 2010, 07:08 PM
Just one thing about Enterprise; If Confucianism is founded in Arcturus, we will want Enterprise to be in position to transport the missionary to Sirius. So I'd recommend not moving it too far away. Others may thing differently.

I'm also not that keen to meet Mavericks sooner than we need to, to be honest.

AlphaShard
Jul 21, 2010, 07:34 PM
I wasn't planing on going too far but you do bring up a good point about the Missionary.

Trystero
Jul 21, 2010, 10:37 PM
I wasn't planing on going too far but you do bring up a good point about the Missionary.

If we want it back at Arcturus in time for CoL, it should turn around after the next turn.

Arcuturus founded, LP moved to copper. Pallas still healing in spot and Vesta moved 1SE....

AlphaShard, you moved Vesta toward Arcturus because you wanted to defend against barbarians. I agreed that this was prudent and spent a couple of posts arguing that we should leave the warrior next to the worker/copper, because barbs will indeed enter our cultural borders to attack the worker. And you move the warrior... away from the worker. :cry: I even specified the tile I thought would would be best:

Where to put Vesta: As I argued above I think the jungle hill 1S of her current position is best until the first border pop, since she can both spawnbust around Arcturus and move to defend the worker should a barb appear to the south. I think we should save the promotion until we need the healing, or have a better long term plan for her.

I don't know if this is really the best place for Vesta, but if you disagree can we at least discuss it before you move the warrior?

Also, you ended the turn, but didn't put anything in Arcturus build queue! I set the build to an archer. Please try to be more careful.

azzaman333
Jul 22, 2010, 12:25 AM
An axeman/spearman combination is better than an axeman/archer.

Also, Canopus should be a production city IMO rather than commerce or hybrid, at least until it builds Moai.

Gressh
Jul 22, 2010, 01:25 AM
In particular, since The Amazons have built the Great Wall, any city on Andromeda will be subject to barb harassment .

I may be wrong, but doesn't the great wall only protect cities on the landmass that it's built on? If so, then we won't be any worse off no matter where we put our city. Of course, this only matters if they built the wall in one of their island cities. If they settled a city on the main landmass and then build the wall there, well, please disregard this post.

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/info/wonders should have a link to the great wall.

AlphaShard
Jul 22, 2010, 03:20 AM
If we want it back at Arcturus in time for CoL, it should turn around after the next turn.



AlphaShard, you moved Vesta toward Arcturus because you wanted to defend against barbarians. I agreed that this was prudent and spent a couple of posts arguing that we should leave the warrior next to the worker/copper, because barbs will indeed enter our cultural borders to attack the worker. And you move the warrior... away from the worker. :cry: I even specified the tile I thought would would be best:



I don't know if this is really the best place for Vesta, but if you disagree can we at least discuss it before you move the warrior?

Also, you ended the turn, but didn't put anything in Arcturus build queue! I set the build to an archer. Please try to be more careful.

I'm sorry I thought I did move the warrior correctly. :(

:eek: Why did the game give me "Press enter to end turn" without asking me to build something then? That's wierd. I've never NOT had to put something in a build queche befeore.

Also Gressh is 100% correct the barbs will not pester Amazon on whichever landmass they built the GW on. Which means the barbs will come after the rest of us.

Trystero
Jul 22, 2010, 10:56 AM
An axeman/spearman combination is better than an axeman/archer.

Well, the archer is cheaper than the spearman and seems like a better long-term defender for Arcturus since it gets bonuses for defending in cities and on hills. And Arcturus has plenty of hills.

I may be wrong, but doesn't the great wall only protect cities on the landmass that it's built on? If so, then we won't be any worse off no matter where we put our city. Of course, this only matters if they built the wall in one of their island cities. If they settled a city on the main landmass and then build the wall there, well, please disregard this post.

Oh yeah, that is correct. I so infrequently play island starts, I'd forgotten about that. Thanks Greesh! I still think we should settle Bode and the B site first, but it would be nice if we don't have to worry about all the barbs heading for us.

I'm sorry I thought I did move the warrior correctly. :(

It's really not that big a deal if it was a mistake. I was just being grumpy. I suppose we can just leave Vesta where she is, since it's a good spawnbusting spot.

:eek: Why did the game give me "Press enter to end turn" without asking me to build something then? That's wierd. I've never NOT had to put something in a build queche befeore.

I'm not sure. Maybe because you logged out and then logged in after settling but before ending the turn? Regardless, it's a good idea to double check your moves/builds before ending the turn. We don't want to lose a turn of production, even if it is only one hammer at this point.

Trystero
Jul 22, 2010, 11:07 AM
T71 sounds good to me. I suggest we revolt into the following four civics in two revolts:
HR, OR, Slavery, Beaurocracy
Plus a third revolt for confucianism.

Now obviously we don't have Beaurocracy yet, so we need to decide which of the other three can wait. If we're building workers, settlers and military, then OR can wait. If we're not going to get above our happy caps anywhere anyway then HR can wait. If we have no plans to whip anywhere, then Slavery can wait.

I actually think all three of those factors are probably true, so it's a matter of which on is the most true.

I think we want to whip soon, and we want to whip settlers, workers, and military. So I would vote for Slavery and HR now. We whip out units, get our cities established and grab as much of Bode as possible, and we build some units to defend the cities and use as MPs under HR to deal with whip unhappiness. Once we've spread Confucianism around and have CS, we revolt to OR/Bureaucracy.

AlphaShard
Jul 22, 2010, 11:28 AM
I think we want to whip soon, and we want to whip settlers, workers, and military. So I would vote for Slavery and HR now. We whip out units, get our cities established and grab as much of Bode as possible, and we build some units to defend the cities and use as MPs under HR to deal with whip unhappiness. Once we've spread Confucianism around and have CS, we revolt to OR/Bureaucracy.

I agree with this since we can't change religons at the same time as Civics and we do need to start whipping. The Amazon's have been doing that for awhile now.

pindicator
Jul 22, 2010, 12:07 PM
Slavery and HR now - yes please! I think I've been going through "whipdrawal" so far this game :crazyeye: OR can wait for Beauro, especially if we plan on going Civil Service next.

I'm on the fence in regards to archer + axe vs. spear + axe. Spears are a more flexible unit, but the archer would be a better overall defender for the city.

I agree with settling City 'B' next, but I don't like settling Pig + Clams until we have more workers. Way too much jungle to cut through. I'd rather see us claim the horses on Andromeda so that we 1) get another commerce city going; 2) get the strategic resource. As long as we bring an axe or two for barbs and build a chariot soonish we should be fine with defense.

Trystero
Jul 22, 2010, 12:28 PM
Just to clarify: By "now" I meant on turn 71 when the settler is in transit to site B. We don't have Monarchy yet, and we don't want the anarchy before we complete CoL to nab Confucianism.

Irgy
Jul 22, 2010, 03:58 PM
An axeman/spearman combination is better than an axeman/archer.

If you put them on the same tile to defend against humans then yes. If you send them in different directions to fight barbs then no - in this second case they're not really a 'combo' as much as just two units. I'd assumed we wanted to spread them out to explore and fogbust.

Spearmen aren't that great vs barbs, as barbs don't get horse units at all but they do get axemen.

Also, Canopus should be a production city IMO rather than commerce or hybrid, at least until it builds Moai.

What do you mean by this in practise though?

Do you want to farm over the cottages? Not work the gold? Or just refuse to build a library there because it's "not a commerce city", despite it being the second highest commerce generating city after Sirius for at least the next 50-100 turns?

pindicator
Jul 22, 2010, 03:58 PM
I understand you meant to wait until we actually have the tech :p I just can't contain my enthusiasm for sacrificing population

T. Claudius
Jul 22, 2010, 05:29 PM
It's been a while since I last posted here!

Which other teams don't have a religion yet? Assuming we get Confucianism it might be worth it to spread it to some of them, too. (For shrine and spying purposes.)

AlphaShard
Jul 22, 2010, 05:51 PM
The only two with a religion are Mavericks and Quatronia.

AlphaShard
Jul 22, 2010, 08:03 PM
Turn 66 -1360 BC


WAR!

Has been declared the Mighty Carthage nation has declared on the Mayans and the Mayans in return declared on the Persians.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=258669&stc=1&d=1279849806

Hell Hound finished Cottage, Sirius working Cottage and one scientist, will get Great Scientist (and Academy) next turn.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=258672&stc=1&d=1279850299

LP mining Copper, both Pallas and Vesta are healing, Enterprise moved 2w revealing some more clam. It can and will return in time if a Confusion Missionary is born in Arcturus.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=258673&stc=1&d=1279850299

Voyager continued around the SE arm and has found another Barbarian City.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=258670&stc=1&d=1279850121

Demographics:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=258671&stc=1&d=1279850121

azzaman333
Jul 22, 2010, 08:25 PM
If you put them on the same tile to defend against humans then yes. If you send them in different directions to fight barbs then no - in this second case they're not really a 'combo' as much as just two units. I'd assumed we wanted to spread them out to explore and fogbust.

Spearmen aren't that great vs barbs, as barbs don't get horse units at all but they do get axemen.

Spearmen are still better than archers. I wouldn't want to leave Arcturus under-defended when we'll probably be at war with Mavericks before long.

What do you mean by this in practise though?

Do you want to farm over the cottages? Not work the gold? Or just refuse to build a library there because it's "not a commerce city", despite it being the second highest commerce generating city after Sirius for at least the next 50-100 turns?

Commerce tiles go to the B site, plains hills are used to build Moai.

Irgy
Jul 22, 2010, 09:49 PM
Commerce tiles go to the B site, plains hills are used to build Moai.

Ok, that makes sense then. I'd forgotten how much overlap those two cities have.

Trystero
Jul 22, 2010, 11:21 PM
It seems most likely that Quatronia has sunk a Merlot WB. I wonder why Merlot declared on Amazon? Maybe their Holkan grabbed a worker?

grant2004
Jul 23, 2010, 03:19 PM
Hmm this is actually interesting. Because Merlot declared war on the Amazons our defensive agreement comes into effect. I don't know how we could help them, or if any assistance is even necessary. We should probably contact them and see what's up.

It's likely just an opportunistic attack, I thought they said their culture did not block Merlot from sailing by them, so it shouldn't be a case of Merlot trying to get by closed borders.

pindicator
Jul 23, 2010, 09:26 PM
We definitely want to send Amazon a message ASAP to ask if they require assistance (while buttressing their expectations by letting them know this early on our resources are rather limited). I'd really hope that the turn-players are up-to-speed on our diplomatic agreements so we can get the ball rolling on these kinds of things faster.

Trystero
Jul 23, 2010, 10:19 PM
I agree that we should send a brief message to Amazon ASAP offering what help we can provide (little or none militarily at this point, but we can at least provide intelligence if we see Merlot units).

I logged in and didn't see anything noteworthy. However, as pindicator noted in the micro thread, if we want to chop the silk tile where city B (Alpha Centauri) will go, the worker (hell hound) must commit to that course of action this turn. The immediate impact of diverting this worker is that the second cottage in Sirius and the Iron mine are delayed 2-3 turns, but it gives us 30 hammers toward the worker in Canopus.

I am in favor of the chopping.

Edit: I posted the relevant micro here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9411750#post9411750).

Trystero
Jul 24, 2010, 02:41 AM
We been contacted by Mavericks (they PMed me). See the new thread.

AlphaShard
Jul 24, 2010, 06:55 AM
I have played most of the turn except doing anything with Enterprise just yet. Building the Academy really boosted our Science rate, even scalling it back to 60% were still in the lead, currently were at 145 GNP. Compared to the rival best of 85. So yeah I think it would be good next turn to scale back.

I really don't think were in a good positiion to start a war we don't have enough military at all. I'm going to assume the worst and that they have triemes with Axemen in them. I find it interesting they assume we would dogpile on Pacal.

Trystero
Jul 24, 2010, 12:15 PM
I have played most of the turn except doing anything with Enterprise just yet. Building the Academy really boosted our Science rate, even scalling it back to 60% were still in the lead, currently were at 145 GNP. Compared to the rival best of 85. So yeah I think it would be good next turn to scale back.

Not next turn. Not until we CoL and have secured Confucianism. We still have enough gold in the bank for a few more turns at 100%

Also, I agree with moving the worker to the Alpha Centauri site, but we could have waited a while to get more feedback before committing to that course of action.

I really don't think were in a good positiion to start a war we don't have enough military at all. I'm going to assume the worst and that they have triemes with Axemen in them. I find it interesting they assume we would dogpile on Pacal.

I agree that this is ill-timed. Crossbowmen would be bad. I think they will make it far enough past Arcturus before our border pops, but I could check this in a test game. We could have Enterprise move back and sink the WB in a few turns if our border doesn't keep them out.

Also, I checked the diplomacy screen, and they have not contacted Merlot yet:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0184.jpg

I have to run some errands. I will check back in a few hours, a we can talk about what message we want to send Amazon and Quatronia about this.

Trystero
Jul 24, 2010, 09:12 PM
OK - a lot is going on and there aren't many people around.

We just got another message from Amazon, this time via PM to me (again!). See the latest message in the Amazon message thread. Basically: 1. Merlot attacked their scout, unpvoked; 2. they have Monarchy finished and want to tech Theology next for the religion and to run Theology for the war with Merlot. 3. They say that Mavericks have a Great Engineer and want to bulb Machinery if they can trade it to somebody, otherwise they will use it on a wonder.

My thoughts: If they use it on a wonder they will delay getting Machinery giving us more time. We could let the WB/trireme through and warn Amazon to intercept while we build up military to take on Mavericks alternatively, we could sink the WB (doing our part) and have the galley retreat to Arcturus or Sirius. At worst the trireme would pillage our clams.

Or we could agree to a 1:1-ish trade and get the ETTA Machinery sooner and then backstab them.

Thoughts? I want to respond to Amazon and Quatronia soon (by PM) so we can formulate a plan.

EDIT: AlphaShard: We are in the middle of 4-way diplomacy, and there are 20 hours left on the game clock. Why the heck did you end the turn???!!!! :gripe:

azzaman333
Jul 24, 2010, 09:16 PM
Don't trade with Mavericks, but don't declare on them. We can't stop them getting through either way.

AlphaShard
Jul 24, 2010, 09:47 PM
I didn't realize that ending the turn would have any effect on our diplomacy. I moved Enterprise toward Arcturus for the hopeful Missionary AND to keep tabs on the Maverick WB. I think everyone so far has agreed to not attacking the WB.

Trystero
Jul 24, 2010, 09:56 PM
We need to coordinate our actions with Amazon (and Quatronia), and that takes time. Also, we haven't responded to Mavericks yet, and I would have liked to do that before we moved the galley or ended the turn.

Again, it wouldn't take much time to consult with the team before making these decisions.

Edit: I have sent off responses to Amazons and Quatronia. I have a bunch of work-related writing I am supposed to be doing, but I will post any responses I get.

I would greatly appreciate some help, if somebody would care to be the Mavericks diplomat.

azzaman333
Jul 24, 2010, 11:24 PM
It's much more likely that Confucianism will be founded in Canopus rather than Arcturus.

AlphaShard
Jul 24, 2010, 11:39 PM
Why is that? I have seen religions founded in just settled cities before.

azzaman333
Jul 25, 2010, 12:47 AM
Why is that? I have seen religions founded in just settled cities before.

The system which determines where the religion is founded favours cities which aren't the capital, have fewest religions present, and has highest tile yields being worked.

grant2004
Jul 25, 2010, 12:51 AM
I didn't realize that ending the turn would have any effect on our diplomacy. I moved Enterprise toward Arcturus for the hopeful Missionary AND to keep tabs on the Maverick WB. I think everyone so far has agreed to not attacking the WB.

You seem to be rushing to play these turns recently. There isn't a time pressure on this, make sure to slow down and check the forums first, we don't want to do things before the team has had a chance to decide, we're at a critical point in the game right now.

pindicator
Jul 25, 2010, 07:41 AM
Trystero, agree with your assessment 100%. We definitely want them using their GE on a wonder and not the tech. And as soon as they use their GE on a religion, the sooner we can feel safe in sinking their ship and not having to deal with any crossbow invaders.

Unfortunately I agree 100% with your Edit too -- it looks like 1 person posted between the time when the turn update post went up and the time the turn was finished. There was no chance for discussion or to find out what we as a team are going to do.

Trystero
Jul 25, 2010, 11:34 AM
We have just received a reply from Quatronia, OKing letting the Maverick work boat through. Here's what I think we should do in our response to Merlot:

1. Offer them safe passage through our waters

2. Offer them Open Borders as a sign of our good will (this is in keeping with point 1, since their trireme would need OB with us to pass).

3. Sadly decline their trade offer without giving specifics.

This buys us time to settle aggressively on Bode, and build up military. Hopefully it will delay them getting Machinery. It also prevents us from becoming involved in a two front war since we have a defensive agreement with Amazon, and we may need to assist them against Merlot.

grant2004
Jul 25, 2010, 03:01 PM
My take on the current situation is that we want Merlot to use their great person to bulb Machinery. If the Mavericks and Merlot succeed in meeting it would be nice if they'd double teched such a large technology and wasted so much.

We should negotiate for a trade of machinery from both the Mavericks and Merlot. At the moment the Maverick's greatest advantage is that they are going to have crossbows. They'll be deleayed because they don't have IW yet, but once they get crossbows it will cause trouble for us. If we can get them to trade away this tech without paying a huge premium for it we'll be in great shape. We'll have two opportunities to trade for this tech, from the Mavericks, and from Merlot, so we can shop for the cheaper price, if either of them offers us a good deal we take it, otherwise we back out.

Trystero
Jul 25, 2010, 05:35 PM
I am considering the following course of action: Since there seems to be general agreement within the team and from Quatronia that we should let the Mavericks through, I suggest we send a response offering them Open Borders, while telling them that we are still considering their trade offer.

The two options for trade are:

1. Decline the trade, stating our current agreements prevent us from from making such a deal. Problem: response unpredictable

2. With the agreement of the rest of the ETTA, trade for Machinery (we get Metal Casting from CDZ this turn), and offer a short term non-aggression pact (say 25 turns, or so). This would free up CDZ to research Optics immediately, and give us a tech we need for Astronomy and crossbowmen. Most importantly, this would give us time to better prepare for direct confrontation, and prevent us from getting involved with two wars immediately, while we aggressively settle Bode (I think we now need to grab the pigs/clam after site B site even if we don't have enough workers). Problem: giving them some military techs (at least IW).

What does everybody think?

For reference, here is their current tech situation:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0185.jpg

Trystero
Jul 25, 2010, 06:56 PM
With regards to option 2 above, what about sending something like this to the rest of the ETTA:

Greetings fellow ETTA members,

As you are aware, we have been in general agreement that preventing Mavericks and Merlot from forming a competing trade alliance is in all our best interest. As some of you may also be aware, we have made contact with Team Mavericks this turn, and they seek a trade agreement with us, offering Machinery in 2 turns. Obviously, we cant agree to any such arrangement. However, we have considered the possibility that by making a one-time trade with them, we gain a valuable technology and further obfuscate the true nature of our relationship with the rest of the ETTA.

This would obviously depend on what they request in return, but having Machinery would allow CDZ to immediately pursue Optics, and (falsely) reassure Mavericks.
In any event, we thought we would gauge ETTA opinion on this idea. Currently, we are going to let their work boat pass our territory since they claim it is followed by a trireme that we could not stop at this time.

We look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Sincerely,

Trystero, Siriain diplomat

grant2004
Jul 25, 2010, 07:56 PM
I think that looks pretty good. I'd add a few more things though.

I think I'd also include something saying that we would also recomend that the Amazons look to get machinery from Merlot, but before either of us commit to a trade we compare and see who is getting the better deal.

I think trying to work deals with both of our enemies is an important part of this strategy, because it makes it more likely that Merlot will waste their great engineer getting a tech that the Mavericks have already discovered, and we'll be able to get the tech from whoever is the cheaper sell.

The other thing I'd mention is that machinery seems to be the biggest advantage the Mavericks have at the moment, so if we can get it from them without too much of a cost it will be a big benefit to the alliance.

1889
Jul 25, 2010, 08:02 PM
I am not the most active player but a one time trade for Machinery sounds like a clever gambit provided they do not make stipulations about not being able to trade it to other teams. Good luck getting that organized through email. Would it be possable to set-up a private forum someplace for ETTA members?

Trystero
Jul 25, 2010, 10:38 PM
I think that looks pretty good. I'd add a few more things though.

I think I'd also include something saying that we would also recomend that the Amazons look to get machinery from Merlot, but before either of us commit to a trade we compare and see who is getting the better deal.

I think trying to work deals with both of our enemies is an important part of this strategy, because it makes it more likely that Merlot will waste their great engineer getting a tech that the Mavericks have already discovered, and we'll be able to get the tech from whoever is the cheaper sell.

Grant: While I agree the scenario you outline would be optimal, I don't see how we could get that worked out under the current circumstances. Recall that Merlot is at war with both Amazons and Quatronia, so either we or CDZ would have to negotiate that trade. Even if we did so, if Mavericks gives us Machinery in 2 turns, CDZ is the team we'd want to pass it on to so they could research Optics. Merlot would immediately realize we have the tech and wonder what's up. Also, we may be forced to take military action against Merlot (well, at least declare war, even if it is a fake war) since we have a defensive pact with Amazon.

I think the best outcome is a one-time deal with Mavericks that gets the alliance Machinery and reassures them for a while allowing us to better prepare for the coming conflict.

If the team agrees with this plan, I will send the message to the ETTA members.

Irgy
Jul 26, 2010, 12:57 AM
Merlot don't have Machinery, they don't even have Metal Casting. I think there's been some confusion between the two 'M' teams.

I'm concerned about two things. One being that we don't want to trade anything to Mavericks. It helps our opponent, and disadvantages the western side of the ETTT over the eastern by doing so (in that all four teams get Machinery, but only the western side boosts their opponents to do so).

The second being that when we trade (in fact not even trade but gift!) Machniery to three other civs they're going to get irate. Or at the very least doing that might make the tech alliance clearer rather than obscuring it. And if we just hang on to Machinery we're breaking the ETTT.

Whether we attempt to negotiate a deal for Machinery with the intention of failing to come to an agreement is another question...

Irgy
Jul 26, 2010, 01:02 AM
By the way, as frightening as Maverick crossbows are, they at least need to research archery first :)

I suggest that we go for Fuedalism after Code of Laws. We can probably get longbows (a good counter to crossbows) before crossbows become a problem. And Fuedalism is the other pre-requisite to Civil Service, for added tech path efficiency.

azzaman333
Jul 26, 2010, 05:56 AM
Mavericks will not agree to a trade for Machinery without stipulating that it cannot be shared. As such, it's futile attempting to trade with them.

Trystero
Jul 26, 2010, 10:55 AM
By the way, as frightening as Maverick crossbows are, they at least need to research archery first :)

I suggest that we go for Fuedalism after Code of Laws. We can probably get longbows (a good counter to crossbows) before crossbows become a problem. And Fuedalism is the other pre-requisite to Civil Service, for added tech path efficiency.

This sounds like an excellent idea to me. If the rest of the team agrees we should let the ETTA know.

AlphaShard
Jul 26, 2010, 10:58 AM
Sounds good, we should bet getting our military up to par.

AlphaShard
Jul 26, 2010, 08:47 PM
Turn 68 - 1280 BC

On our Main Island Hell_Hound has moved to AC spot to chop forest next turn for the 14 hammers. 3rd worker will be finished next turn in Sirius. Canopus will complete it's settler in 3 turns. Also we get Code of Laws next turn, cross fingers for Confusionism.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=259121&stc=1&d=1280198249

On Bode both Pallas and Vesta are healed, one is 1sw of LP working on the Copper. The other is 1W of Pig. No Barbs in sight. Enterprise moved to port of Arcturus awaiting to see if this is where Confu is founded.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=259120&stc=1&d=1280198249

Update from Voyager location, some of CDZ culture can be seen in the south.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=259119&stc=1&d=1280198249

End turn has not been hit.

Demographics:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=259122&stc=1&d=1280198249

pindicator
Jul 26, 2010, 09:54 PM
Even if they don't put the stipulation of no-brokering in the deal, I still don't like trading for Machinery with Maverick. Yes, it speeds up our research by 1 technology -- but we have 4 teams teching along in our ETTT, so comparatively we're getting the benefit of a 1/4 of a civ worth of research.

At the same time it advances Maverick by 2 technologies: first of all the tech(s) we trade for Machinery; the second tech being the fact that they are using a GE to bulb for the tech. As they stated, if they cannot get a good deal they will not bulb the GE and instead use him for a wonder.

It's the comparative technological difference that matters when we invade, not necessarily how fast we get to the invasion. I don't see this trade doing anything to benefit our advantage.

I have no idea with bluffing like we will trade with them, or stalling them by talking about trading but making conditions we know they won't agree to -- like brokering the tech, for instance. But please don't do this tech deal.

Trystero
Jul 26, 2010, 10:04 PM
Looks good, AlphaShard.:goodjob: I think our chances for a religion seem pretty high.

Any disagreements with researching Feudalism next, as Irgy proposed?

I'm thinking we should move Pallas 1NW onto that hill to have a look around, then have her follow the coast south to scout since our borders will pop next turn. Or is that premature?


I have no idea with bluffing like we will trade with them, or stalling them by talking about trading but making conditions we know they won't agree to -- like brokering the tech, for instance. But please don't do this tech deal.

I think we are now all in agreement on this point. The marginal benefit of Machinery for us is far outweighed by the boost they'd get. Even if they did become hostile, at this point the worst they could do is pillage the clams at Arcturus.

My request for what they wanted for Machinery was as much a stalling tactic as anything else. Now I'll let Lord Parkin let them down gently. ;)

pindicator
Jul 26, 2010, 11:46 PM
Okay, I'm glad to see that I just mis-read the thread by coming late to the party :) I got a little frightened by the message that it may have been in earnest.

azzaman333
Jul 27, 2010, 01:12 AM
This sounds like an excellent idea to me. If the rest of the team agrees we should let the ETTA know.

We should just go straight to CS, IMO. Macemen won't be far behind.

Irgy
Jul 27, 2010, 01:26 AM
Although I suggested it myself in the firstplace I'm now 50-50 on the Fuedalism idea, if Mavericks are going to just build the Pyramids instead of bulbing machinery. In that case we're not worried about crossbows. Fuedalism for longbows was a good counter to crossbows (which is one thing macemen most certainly are not). The Beaurocracy bonus of Civil Service will be much more useful than the pre-requisite bonus from doing them in the 'correct' order.

Longbows are at least a very good unit to have though regardless of what else happens, they're great defenders right up until rifles or cannons.

AlphaShard
Jul 27, 2010, 04:38 AM
We could ask in game for Monarchy from Amazons unless it should be next turn when we can offer Code of Laws for it?

Trystero
Jul 27, 2010, 10:56 AM
Although I suggested it myself in the firstplace I'm now 50-50 on the Fuedalism idea, if Mavericks are going to just build the Pyramids instead of bulbing machinery. In that case we're not worried about crossbows. Fuedalism for longbows was a good counter to crossbows (which is one thing macemen most certainly are not). The Beaurocracy bonus of Civil Service will be much more useful than the pre-requisite bonus from doing them in the 'correct' order.

Longbows are at least a very good unit to have though regardless of what else happens, they're great defenders right up until rifles or cannons.

Yeah, I am beginning to share your doubts. The threat of crossbows seems more remote, and macemen are excellent offensive units. It's probably better to prepare for attack than defense. Since we want bureaucracy, and CS was our original plan, perhaps we should stick with that.

We could ask in game for Monarchy from Amazons unless it should be next turn when we can offer Code of Laws for it?

We shouldn't ask for techs in game, or ask for trades. It gives too much information away. It's better to ask through email. We don't need to revolt for a few more turns, so if they don't offer it soon, we can have Irgy pester them. ;)

grant2004
Jul 27, 2010, 04:26 PM
I feel like we should be reaching the point where we don't need to disguise the ETTA anymore, it should be apparent to Merlot and the Mavericks what we're up to. That said the Mavericks are certainly acting like it isn't apparent to them, so I guess we should keep it up a little longer. But we don't need to cling to this, receive only idea once the ETTA is publicly known.

Trystero
Jul 27, 2010, 08:13 PM
I feel like we should be reaching the point where we don't need to disguise the ETTA anymore, it should be apparent to Merlot and the Mavericks what we're up to. That said the Mavericks are certainly acting like it isn't apparent to them, so I guess we should keep it up a little longer. But we don't need to cling to this, receive only idea once the ETTA is publicly known.

Normally I would agree with you, but my interactions with Mavericks convinced me otherwise. They genuinely seemed to believe my assertions about our research (that we were about to finish MC). Let us see if that holds true now, because:

We have a religion (not that we've converted ;)):
http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0188.jpg

There are a couple of changes to the micro plan I proposed to take effect this turn. Specifically, dropping the research slider to 0% for a few turns. If you have a moment, head over to the micro thread and check my work. :) (I haven't done anything other than check that we got the religion so far. I also distributed CoL to the ETTA.)

AlphaShard
Jul 27, 2010, 09:41 PM
Wanted to report we got Monarchy and our Copper mine is now completed.

Irgy
Jul 27, 2010, 10:10 PM
Well, I'd just like to say a hurrah for getting Confucianism! Good news that it's founded in Canopus too, it's nice to have our holy city somewhere relatively safe - although the culture in Arcuturus would have been nice too.

Dropping the slider to 0 seems to me to be the obvious thing to do. That's the whole fun of binary tech, you save up cash, then plow through quickly at 100% science, and in the meantime you can delay comitting yourself for as long as possible.

azzaman333
Jul 27, 2010, 10:58 PM
It's much more likely that Confucianism will be founded in Canopus rather than Arcturus.

Just pointing out that I'm always right.

Gold accumulation seems good til we get Monarchy.

Trystero
Jul 28, 2010, 12:32 AM
Just pointing out that I'm always right.

I never doubted you. ;)

Gold accumulation seems good til we get Monarchy.

My plan was to drop the research slider to 0% for 4 turns. This includes one turn of anarchy when we revolt to Slavery + HR (turn 71). The 3 other turns will give us about 175 gold. This is more than enough to gets us to Civil Service running the slider at 100% for about 11 turns. Our current burn rate is 6 gold/turn, but it will go up since the micro I proposed is mostly building units that will want to be paid. I think it was around 10 gold/turn at turn 80 in my test game.

AlphaShard
Jul 28, 2010, 04:24 AM
Just pointing out that I'm always right.

Gold accumulation seems good til we get Monarchy.

Actually you were wrong about the Iceberg in the north and we met Amazon that much quicker and you were wrong about the center of the map. Just thought I'd point that out to you. You were also wrong about the Iron not being on our island. I remember you being dead set against IW only until after we got AH and BW.

azzaman333
Jul 28, 2010, 05:14 AM
Actually you were wrong about the Iceberg in the north I said it was possible, not that there would definitely be one. Not wrong.

and we met Amazon that much quicker

We would've met them earlier still if the mistake hadn't been made by the turnplayer in the first place.

and you were wrong about the center of the map.

Not wrong since I was merely speculating about map possibilities. I never said there is definitely a canal through the middle.

Just thought I'd point that out to you.

Because I called you out for sloppy turnplaying?

You were also wrong about the Iron not being on our island. I remember you being dead set against IW only until after we got AH and BW.

I'd be interested how you suggest we would learn IW before BW.
And do you really think it would've been a good idea to research IW before AH?


So, in summary, my statement of never being wrong still holds true.

DaveShack
Jul 28, 2010, 09:16 AM
Let's stay away from personal attacks

pindicator
Jul 29, 2010, 07:19 PM
Hurray on landing a religion!!! :)

I don't know if this question belongs here or in the Micro thread... Currently the Micro Thread has a plan laid out for settling 2 more cities in the next dozen turns. Everybody appeared to be in agreement on the first city -- on the home island -- but I haven't seen much discussion about the second city. The Micro Thread assumes it to be the site currently labeled 'City A' in game, on Bode east of Arcturus and knee-deep in jungle. I don't like the site right now (it's a great site for us to settle later though). I'd prefer grabbing horses on Andromeda. Am I alone in this line of thinking? (Cause if i am I'll drop the issue :p )

azzaman333
Jul 29, 2010, 07:34 PM
The quicker we have two big production cities on Bode, the better IMO. We can then drive Mavericks off if necessary.

Trystero
Jul 30, 2010, 12:50 AM
Hurray on landing a religion!!! :)

I don't know if this question belongs here or in the Micro thread... Currently the Micro Thread has a plan laid out for settling 2 more cities in the next dozen turns. Everybody appeared to be in agreement on the first city -- on the home island -- but I haven't seen much discussion about the second city. The Micro Thread assumes it to be the site currently labeled 'City A' in game, on Bode east of Arcturus and knee-deep in jungle. I don't like the site right now (it's a great site for us to settle later though). I'd prefer grabbing horses on Andromeda. Am I alone in this line of thinking? (Cause if i am I'll drop the issue :p )

The consensus from earlier discussions was that to grab the pigs/clam site now since it is in a contested region (Mavericks now have Sailing, and they now know we have a city on Bode), and we already have warriors and a worker available near that location. I initially favored the horse site first, but changed my mind. My argument from an earlier post:


Where to settle next: We are currently building a settler in Canopus and will build another in Sirius after the worker. This will give us settlers on turns 71 and 77. As much as Ive argued that the horse site would be a good idea, I think the next two cities should be at site B (the silk tile) on Sol and the clams/pig site on Bode. The reason for this is that both those locations will have resources in place to get the cities up and running faster.

pindicator
Jul 30, 2010, 12:59 AM
It's the jungle that gives me pause -- we're already low on workers; trying to develop a jungle location didn't seem great. And I didn't think it a high risk, since it's more towards the center of the map and farther from other teams' home islands.

Still, once it's up and running it'll be a great site. You and Azzaman both point out the positives to it well.

Irgy
Jul 30, 2010, 01:18 AM
I'd consider it "up and running" once it has pigs and two clams improved. Especially now that we're about to have the whip on our side. I agree about jungle in general, but I think this one is still worth grabbing.

That said, the third set of pigs to the NW are certainly catching my eye, I wonder whether there's a better (or just as good but without jungle) spot up there somewhere? Maybe we can't safely find the right spot in time for this settler though.

Trystero
Jul 30, 2010, 01:33 AM
That said, the third set of pigs to the NW are certainly catching my eye, I wonder whether there's a better (or just as good but without jungle) spot up there somewhere? Maybe we can't safely find the right spot in time for this settler though.

There isn't too much to discuss for when the next turn rolls around, but one of the things I was considering was to send Pallas to the pigs hill to see if there are any other resources up there. It is pretty close to what's likely to be the desert end of Bode, though.

For reference, here is a screenshot of the area from last turn:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0190.jpg

Trystero
Jul 30, 2010, 10:48 AM
Since the micro plan (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9420465&postcount=107) we are currently using is provisional, I am going to post the intended turn set here for approval, as Irgy suggested. My plan:

1. Move Pallas (the western warrior in the screen shot of the post above) 1NW to the pigs hill to check out that location.
2. Move Lord Parkin (the worker in Arcturus) 2W to the pigs hill to pasture it.
3. Move Vesta (the eastern warrior on Bode) 1E to better spawnbust
4. Move the new worker onto the iron hill to start mining it for Alpha Centauri
5. Move Enterprise back toward Sirius.

AlphaShard
Jul 30, 2010, 10:51 AM
Looks good, don't forget the Missionary and Voyager. :)

Irgy
Jul 30, 2010, 01:44 PM
If Lord Parkin can road the square he's on and still have the pigs improved in time to work them, he should build a road rather than having to climb the hill again later. If roading now would mean the pigs aren't ready to be worked when Arcturus grows to size 3 then we should move to the pigs straight away.

Trystero
Jul 30, 2010, 02:32 PM
The copper is already connected by the river. Or do you mean an eventual road to Vega (pig/clams city)?

Irgy
Jul 30, 2010, 03:49 PM
I don't mean to connect the copper, I just mean that we'll want a road there eventually and it's better to build it while we're there already if we have time (but not worth delaying the pigs). If Lord Parkin is going to head to Vega next he'll get one of the two turns it takes back already on his way over there.

Trystero
Jul 31, 2010, 12:32 AM
I fooled around with this in a test game. I think we want to improve the pigs first, not because we will grow to 3 pop and have them undeveloped, but because it fits better with improving tiles for Arcturus and Vega (the pigs/clam city). If we work the pigs at 3 pop we'll rapidly grow to 4 pop before we can improve another tile, if we delay to road the copper

If we improve the pigs without roading the copper, we can next mine the hill 1E of the copper in time for Vega to work it. (Roading the copper doesn't help us get to that hill faster). This is better than the hill between the pigs and the copper (in my most current micro proposal), since this hill can be worked by Vega right away and can be worked by Arcturus. We can't improve the pigs in Vega before it's first border pop, so having the hill 1E of copper mined would be highly advantageous to Vega's development.

Sorry if this sounds too esoteric. Essentially playing through this a couple of times makes me think improving tiles right now is better than building a road.

Irgy
Jul 31, 2010, 01:48 AM
Sounds like you're on top of it then.

Trystero
Jul 31, 2010, 02:15 AM
Sort of. ;) Improving the pig isn't necessarily very much better than roading the copper, it just seemed to play slightly better in test games.

Trystero
Aug 01, 2010, 01:40 AM
Turn 70 - 1200 BC

Worker 3 (now named caveman1917) moved to the iron hill. The Confucian missionary continued toward Sirius.

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0197.jpg

Lord Parkin moved to the pigs hill to start a pasture. Pallas moved 1NW to the pigs hill, but did not reveal any new resources. Vesta moved 1E to spawnbust the pigs/clam (Vega) site.

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0196.jpg

Voyager found a CDZ city:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0195.jpg

We received Metal Casting from CDZ.

For the next turn, the settler will be done in Canopus and move to site B. This will coincide with our revolt to Slavery and HR.

The site marked "x" 1N of Pallas, with pigs, fish, and hills looks like a decent city site. Should we move Pallas 1NW to reveal more tiles, or start heading 1SW and then follow the coast south?

azzaman333
Aug 01, 2010, 02:31 AM
Pallas 1NW.

Irgy
Aug 01, 2010, 04:47 AM
I like 1NW too.

When do we switch back to 100% research? Don't want to get Civil Service a turn late if we can help it, Beaurocracy will be excellent.

Trystero
Aug 01, 2010, 02:25 PM
When do we switch back to 100% research? Don't want to get Civil Service a turn late if we can help it, Beaurocracy will be excellent.

In the current micro proposal (which, itself, needs an overhaul at this point) I run at 0% research for one more turn. However, I think we have sufficient gold that we can switch back to 100% research next turn (or this turn, since we are going into anarchy). I checked my test game, where our income is worse, and we had 5 gold in the bank when we finished CS, so we should make it there with just 2 turns at 0% in the real game.

I will update my micro proposal later today.

Trystero
Aug 01, 2010, 09:53 PM
Turn 71 - 1160 BC

Pallas moved 1NW to explore the potential city site. It has stone, as well as pigs and clams, and plains rather than desert. It is indeed a nice city site:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0198.jpg

Arcturus has grown to pop 2 and is working the clams and the copper mine. Lord Parkin is now building a pasture on the pigs hill in Arcturus, and Vesta is spawnbusting at the pigs/clam (Vega) site:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0199.jpg

The missionary spread Confucianism to Sirius, and caveman1917 is now mining the iron hill. Enterprise is now 1/2 turn away from Sirius. The settler was completed in Canopus and moved to the Alpha Centauri site:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0203.jpg

Voyager continued south, following the CDZ coast:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0200.jpg

We increased the research slider to 100%, and revolted to Slavery and Hereditary Rule:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0201.jpg

================================================== ==========

One thing I noticed is that Mavericks might have a city on Bode:

http://i654.photobucket.com/albums/uu269/Trystero_CFC/Civ4ScreenShot0202.jpg

I think Pallas should start back toward Arcturus to act as the MP. The archer there will be done in 4 turns and it will take Pallas 5 turns to get back. The archer could head south when it is finished to scout around.

AlphaShard
Aug 01, 2010, 10:02 PM
So no OR? I thought the Hammer bonus would be useful at least.

Copper City? Way to be obvious there Mavericks.

Trystero
Aug 01, 2010, 10:13 PM
So no OR? I thought the Hammer bonus would be useful at least.

We (well, at least Irgy and I) discussed this earlier. We can't revolt to Slavery/HR/OR at once, because that would cost 2 turns of anarchy. Also, we'll have CS in about 10 turns, so we'll want to revolt again to Bureaucracy, so better to delay one of the three until then. With the exception of granaries, we want to build mostly units right now, and use the whip when we can, so it was decided to hold off on OR and buildings until we've built more settlers/workers/military.

Irgy
Aug 01, 2010, 11:59 PM
We (well, at least Irgy and I) discussed this earlier.

It wasn't just us, other people commented as well. Including, for example, Alphashard in fact. See post #1416 of this thread for details (there's other discussion earlier such as quoted by #1416 itself, but most of it is around there).

Irgy
Aug 02, 2010, 02:13 AM
Pallas moved 1NW to explore the potential city site. It has stone, as well as pigs and clams, and plains rather than desert. It is indeed a nice city site

I'm really leaning towards settling this one instead of the Vega (pig-clam-clam) site. It's a site that Mavericks are much more likely to compete for (once they actually find it), partly because of the stone and partly just because the continent is thinner up that end. The Vega site I would say we're not likely to lose.

It also has no jungle, so our 1 worker won't take as long to manage to improve more than just the resources.

The only down side is that it's not quite as good as the Vega site for pumping out workers and settlers, but it's pretty darn close.

One thing I noticed is that Mavericks might have a city on Bode

It's odd that we can't see the culture from it though. Although come to think of it we can't see the second copper either. Maybe after their first border expansion it will become visible to us.

They could also be bluffing with the name, although it's an odd kind of bluff.

I think Pallas should start back toward Arcturus to act as the MP. The archer there will be done in 4 turns and it will take Pallas 5 turns to get back. The archer could head south when it is finished to scout around.

I'd be inclined to leave Pallas somewhere like where he is. We lose a few turns of fog busting trying to swap them around, and warrior is just about as good at fog busting as an archer, while an archer will also actually defend the city if we leave it there.

The archer would be more likely to survive an attack if a barb spawns on the tip somewhere, but on the other hand if a barb archer or axeman comes from the other direction we'll be glad to have the archer around to defend the city (or the resource hills if we can get away with it).

Trystero
Aug 02, 2010, 02:32 AM
I'll respond in detail later since I am heading to bed, but I am inclined to agree with you. The jungle poses problems at the pigs/clam site (more so for Mavericks who don't have IW). Moving Vega to site x would definitely make it easier to get up and running. I still think the pigs/clam/clam site has got to come after that, and then the horses. That would give us 7 good cities from our expansion phase.

BLubmuz
Aug 02, 2010, 04:10 AM
I noticed we used the Confu Missionary for Sirius.
I forget to suggest to wait some turn to see it auto-spread, as often happens, mainly when the cities are so close. Hammers wasted, i think :(

Actually any move and plan is very well done, so i assumed you guys have wait to spread.
OK, it's done.

pindicator
Aug 02, 2010, 08:35 AM
It wasn't just us, other people commented as well. Including, for example, Alphashard in fact. See post #1416 of this thread for details (there's other discussion earlier such as quoted by #1416 itself, but most of it is around there).

Yeah, that's actually one discussion I can remember. Glad I'm not the only one who is forgetting these too, alpha! :D

When I was going over the synopsis I was going to also suggest the pig/clam/stone site as an alternative, so it's good to know I'm not the one thinking that way. A little less food, but it's a lot more likely to be snatched by Mavericks early on.

DaveShack
Aug 02, 2010, 09:54 AM
Settling "copper city" could be used as a way of claiming they have copper when they really don't. Not necessarily a good use of indirection, just coming up with reasons...

Any chance their center tile could be copper and the iron could be on their other spoke? Then they really might have copper. Which almost makes the indirection plausible, though I would not bet that way.

AlphaShard
Aug 02, 2010, 10:10 AM
I do remember discussing that we needed more units I just didn't make the connection that we didn't need OR then in that case. So yeah I'm getting old I guess lol

I do like the idea for going for City X spot to get the stone, though would we want to use the stone for a Wonder?

It is possible they are misdirecting but I have an idea that might be where they plan on building the Colossus.

grant2004
Aug 02, 2010, 07:34 PM
Maybe I'm wrong about the location of resources, but didn't the Amazons report copper on their other spoke as well? If so I'd expect that the northern and southern spokes don't have copper but the other 4 do. In which case it's possible that the Mavericks have a copper city on Comet.

Also wouldn't it be better if Vega moved 1S to spawn bust? It will cover more land tiles than the current location and would allow it to return to Arcturus just as quickly if it needed to. The downside is that the tile 4E of Arcturus would not be spawn busted, but that's small compared to the number of additional tiles we'd bust in the south if we moved.