Turn 0 / 4000 BC:

Moved the Warrior 1NW and ended our turn. Results shown in the screenshot. It's just possible that we'll have a land tile right on the NE corner that connects us to a larger continent, but it seems unlikely. Much more likely that the land curves around to the west just above where the Warrior is. It's looking more and more likely that we're on a thin peninsula or a small island.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=248742&stc=1&d=1270628886
Feel free to discuss our next move here! Where should the Warrior head next turn?

continue nw. so we expose as much of the map possible.

Is 2N of the warrior land or sea?

So are you saying there is coast where you put the sign in front of so we can't see? :p

continue nw. so we expose as much of the map possible.Agreed. Next turn probably NE.

Is 2N of the warrior land or sea?Land, for what i can see (not much).

Is 2N of the warrior land or sea?
Land. Sorry, I should have mentioned that the unmarked tiles have land.

I'm thinking move NE next turn, then (presumably) follow the coastline going NW.

I'd like NE since it is a hill as well. I like we have alot of forest in this northern area. Good for chopping out stuff. :) Uh question but we've done two turns right? How come no hammers have accumulated for the workboat? It's still on 6 turns.

I'd like NE since it is a hill as well. I like we have alot of forest in this northern area. Good for chopping out stuff. :) Uh question but we've done two turns right? How come no hammers have accumulated for the workboat? It's still on 6 turns.

Nope, this is the first turn (turn 0). :)

It might have just seemed like two turns because we discussed for ages, settled our city, then discussed some more before moving the Warrior. The first turn still has yet to end. ;)

I'm all for continuing NW. No point looking at water, we need to find copper not more seafood. If the coast continues to head northwest then we don't want to end up stuck on it.

Plus, if we keep heading west, we have the option to turn around to southwest in the future if, for example, the northern coast bends around over us.

NW for sure. It opens up the most tiles and considering we can see coast to the NE there is no point pursuing it. Its important to discover the land form quickly to be able to plan ahead.

Its annoying we are on a peninsula (if its the case) as we can't block ourselves off some land. However I'd be inclined to think that if we are on a peninsula then everyone else is.

NW for sure. It opens up the most tiles and considering we can see coast to the NE there is no point pursuing it. Its important to discover the land form quickly to be able to plan ahead.

Its annoying we are on a peninsula (if its the case) as we can't block ourselves off some land. However I'd be inclined to think that if we are on a peninsula then everyone else is.

I'd really rather not leave a small pocket of land to be explored right next to our capital.
Also, technically going NE shows us most tiles because of the extra sight over the coast.

Absolutely move NW, finding copper should be a priority now, in case we're near one of the teams inclined to rush. We can see that the only unrevealed land tile, which moving NE would reveal, (unless there's an odd diagonal peninsula) is a forested hill. Because of the forest we can be sure it doesn't contain a resource and can ignore it for now. It will only be important to explore the coast here when we are considering placing a city in the region, as we'll want to know what seafood resources are available. That can be handeled by one of our later warriors, closer to the time our settler is being sent over. Our first warior needs to keep exploring land tiles for copper, and to find nearby enemies.

We won't have Bronze for another 18 turns or so, I don't see the huge rush in finding tiles that can have copper now.

Remember we're not actually going to SEE Copper until we get Bronze Working. Not sure if some people have forgotten that or not... I just notice that the search for Copper keeps coming up as if people are expecting to see it instantly. ;)

I think there is water N of the warrior, certain camera angles show clear wave action under the trees. Explore NW (7) for me. If we really want to know the details of that coast we could send an extra WB or the settler's escort while it's waiting for the settler to build.

I think there is water N of the warrior, certain camera angles show clear wave action under the trees. Explore NW (7) for me. If we really want to know the details of that coast we could send an extra WB or the settler's escort while it's waiting for the settler to build.

That'd be a waste of a work boat, and would mean the other warriors would be able to spend less time examining the southern coastline.

NW reveals more land tiles and heads us in the most probable direction of the enemy. Even though we cant see the copper instantly we will have a better chance of seeing it instantly with BW if we have as much land as possible discovered.

NW reveals more land tiles and heads us in the most probable direction of the enemy. Even though we cant see the copper instantly we will have a better chance of seeing it instantly with BW if we have as much land as possible discovered.

:agree:

Yes, that's what I meant, sorry for not being clear. The more non-forested land tiles we reveal the better our chances of seeing copper immediately.

That'd be a waste of a work boat, and would mean the other warriors would be able to spend less time examining the southern coastline.
The wb could of course continue exploring coast. It's only a true waste if we're on an island and there is no other seafood. In the last game, 4/5 of first contact with other civs came by wb, centuries before they met by land.

NW reveals more land tiles and heads us in the most probable direction of the enemy. Even though we cant see the copper instantly we will have a better chance of seeing it instantly with BW if we have as much land as possible discovered.

:agree:

Yes, that's what I meant, sorry for not being clear. The more non-forested land tiles we reveal the better our chances of seeing copper immediately.

I have a feeling that we're on an island rather than a peninsula.

And the most important tiles to uncover are those nearest to our capital, like the coastal ones NE of the warrior.

The wb could of course continue exploring coast. It's only a true waste if we're on an island and there is no other seafood. In the last game, 4/5 of first contact with other civs came by wb, centuries before they met by land.

I don't see any reason to build a workboat for exploration before we've, at least, built our first settler.

I think there is water N of the warrior, certain camera angles show clear wave action under the trees. Explore NW (7) for me. If we really want to know the details of that coast we could send an extra WB or the settler's escort while it's waiting for the settler to build.

I have a feeling that we're on an island rather than a peninsula.

And the most important tiles to uncover are those nearest to our capital, like the coastal ones NE of the warrior.

I don't see any reason to build a workboat for exploration before we've, at least, built our first settler.
So then we should go with my other suggestion, sending the settler's escort to look at those tiles while the settler finishes. :)

So then we should go with my other suggestion, sending the settler's escort to look at those tiles while the settler finishes. :)

I'm not sure how many warriors we'll have built by the time we're building our first settler (however many it takes to grow to size 4 I assume) but it seems like a waste to send the warrior there later when he could be fogbusting the route we want the settler to take. There's no real advantage to moving NW this turn IMO. We just leave a small pocket of unexplored tiles right next to our capital that we'll have to go out of our way to explore later. It seems horribly inefficient to me.

I have a feeling that we're on an island rather than a peninsula.

Just had this thought. Remember when we were throwing up the idea of having a central island with extra resources on it? Imagine if the map creator put everyone on an island (2 or 3 cities size) at the start and we are all connected by coast to the main island.

http://www.paul-gardiner.com/civ/islands.jpg

It would certainly be a curve ball. And its extremely balanced in terms of how quick people will meet each other.

I'll also vote for NW. Both for exposing more land tiles and for trying to make contact with our neighbors ASAP.

I'm not sure how many warriors we'll have built by the time we're building our first settler (however many it takes to grow to size 4 I assume) but it seems like a waste to send the warrior there later when he could be fogbusting the route we want the settler to take. There's no real advantage to moving NW this turn IMO. We just leave a small pocket of unexplored tiles right next to our capital that we'll have to go out of our way to explore later. It seems horribly inefficient to me.

Sorry I didn't read to the end of the thread before replying. I am not dismissing your concerns Azzaman333. While I agree that it is a good thing to expose all the tiles surrounding the start site in a timely manner, I don't think it's a huge issue on the second turn. Perhaps this is because I don't normally micromanage the opening to this extent in my own games. I think moves to either NW or NE have valid justifications, but that it mostly comes down to personal preference at this point, so I'll stick with NW.

Will our border pop expose any of the tiles to the NE?

[QUOTE=azzaman333;9077199]I have a feeling that we're on an island rather than a peninsula.QUOTE]

I'd prefer to assume we're on a peninsula and find out we've been ineficient with an island start than to assume we're on an island and not find important resources and meet neighbors who want to invade our peninsula.

Like others have said, when we build our 2nd or 3rd warrior in preparation for our settler he can go ahead and look around more closely at these tiles while the settler is building. Because this region is close to our capital he'll be able to accomplish this, and then get back to fogbusting/escort duty before turns are wasted.

I also don't know how long we want to leave the Capital undefended as well. I mean I know the range of Animal Barb time lasts shorter the higher up the level you go. Not to mention Players love nothing more then to invade an empty city. I know I've done that to the AI several times.

I'm not sure how many warriors we'll have built by the time we're building our first settler (however many it takes to grow to size 4 I assume) but it seems like a waste to send the warrior there later when he could be fogbusting the route we want the settler to take. There's no real advantage to moving NW this turn IMO. We just leave a small pocket of unexplored tiles right next to our capital that we'll have to go out of our way to explore later. It seems horribly inefficient to me.

It's probably been said to death by now, but I'll put my spin on it anyway. We're going to build at least two warriors before the settler, at least according to the start plans I've made. The first should probably head west along that coast (assuming we don't turn the first one south anyway), the second should hang around the capital (or vice versa). The one hanging around the capital can clean up a few foggy tiles that we might have left.

I don't see what the issue is with dark tiles near the capital. If we're going to leave a few tiles to be explored later, then the closer they are to the capital the easier they are to fix.

On Emperor level barbs start spawning around 2000 BC or sooner.

I say the first built warrior will stay around the Capital, the 2rd will cover the east and this one will move an half circle NW for some 2-3 moves, then SW.

Well I certainly hope by 2000 we have at least three cities total with some cottages going.

Three cities by 2000 BC might be quite a big ask, but we should certainly found as many cities as possible as quickly as possible.

I'd also like to propose we consider changing at least one Warrior build to a Work Boat. One of the mistakes my team made in the last game was not building any exploratory Work Boats, which meant we didn't meet any of the teams until quite late in the game, and as a result we missed out on a lot of potential alliances. Of course, this is still a while down the track, so we have some time to consider it.

See this is why I would like REX better defined because I thought three cities, capital included, reasonable by 2000 bc.

I agree that an exploratory workboat would be a good idea. It looks like there is coast to the east of us beyond a thin gap of ocean. We might be able to send the workboat across once our culture expands. We'll know for sure once that expansion happens.

I'm torn -- aesthetically I like NE, strategically I like NW. I know I voted to explore the coast last time, but if we're going to explore inland then we should stick to that as a strat for the first warrrior... So I guess I vote NW.

New Turn, its time to celebrate :P 499 to go...

NW seems to be the direction most are favoring.

Yeah, the vote seems to be favouring NW. I'll log in to move when I can, or anyone else can log in if they want (just make sure to grab a screenshot and post it here). :)

I guess we can forget about the Great Lighthouse (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=360617) now. I have to say, I'm a little annoyed and disappointed that the mapmakers decided to mod the game and disable at least one wonder in this game. Good thing we hadn't spent a lot of time planning out a full strategy to get the Great Lighthouse yet... I wonder if any other teams were so lucky. Makes me wonder though, what else have they edited from the core game? We kind of need to know this stuff before we begin...

Turn 1 / 3960 BC:

Warrior moved 1NW, turn ended. See screenshot. Looks like we've reached the northern limit of this small peninsula or island. I wonder how much further west it extends... this could be a rather cramped start.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=248865&stc=1&d=1270709985
So, where should the Warrior head next turn?

Well, I can think of one and only one reason why they would disable the great lighthouse, and that's a map with a lot of coast on it. Probably in the style of Archipelago (ok it's obvious, but someone needs to say it). Great for our leader choice, but pretty good for Quatronia's Cothons and excellent for CDZ's Ragnar as well. Not so good news for Amazons with their land-rush leader. Unless we're stuck on an island with them anyway - it's not impossible.

As far as warrior movement goes, my preference order is: 74198263

On the whole, I think it looks like we want to turn SW in the near future. I don't think it's a good idea to turn south straight away because we reveal less new tiles (especially if you account for our border pop that's only a couple of turns away). It looks like we can see every land tile along the NE coast already anyway, so I couldn't be bothered heading over that way. Especially as a scouting workboat/galley or two is looking increasingly likely.

It's an islands map of some sort.

Definitely should've gone NE last turn IMO.


Also, I strongly disagree with a scouting workboat before our 1st settler is built

due west and next turn sw. making good use of the mountains. knowing the water tiles is of no use at this point.

Yeah, it's obviously an islands map. Champinoman may have had it just about spot on with his image on the previous page.

Also, I strongly disagree with a scouting workboat before our 1st settler is built
We're going to need to build something while we grow to size 4-5. Might as well be a Work Boat, IMHO. But we'll see as the time gets nearer. :)

Yeah, it's obviously an islands map. Champinoman may have had it just about spot on with his image on the previous page.


We're going to need to build something while we grow to size 4-5. Might as well be a Work Boat, IMHO. But we'll see as the time gets nearer. :)

Warriors to fog bust til size 4. If we're on a small island we can completely eliminate the barbarian threat with a few well placed warriors.

Then we can work our 4 good tiles while building the settler, and build a workboat to explore after that.

Warriors to fog bust til size 4. If we're on a small island we can completely eliminate the barbarian threat with a few well placed warriors.
If the island is as small as it could be, we may not even need many (or any) extra Warriors for fogbusting. I guess we'll see, anyway. ;)

Or it could be some form of map with a set width of land forcing lots of coast...

Intercontinental trade routes is what makes TGL so powerful (unless there's basically no cottage-able land).

It's almost certainly an islands map.

If the island is as small as it could be, we may not even need many (or any) extra Warriors for fogbusting. I guess we'll see, anyway. ;)

We'll need at least 2 to fogbust, as far as I can tell, plus 1 to remove the :mad: in the city for having no MP.

I think explorer WB is going to be vital, I feel like were also going to discover the map before our current boat is even finished. It would be good to know where any other seafood may be at this point. Kinda glad we don't have to worry about being chariot rushed.

I'll vote SW for movement.

After that Great Lighthouse move I'm inclined to think Azzaman's prediction that we're on an island is spot on.

I have a theory about how this map has been designed. I think they might have made it so that connections between the starting islands and other islands will only form from culture spreading over ocean tiles and making them navigable by galleys and workboats. If the map was made in this way the home islands will be safe from invasion until Astronomy, but we'll be able to fight for non home territory once that cultural connection is established. I think this would be an amazingly cool idea. This is of course highly speculative until we see more of the map.

As for the move I'd probably go SW, I still have an inclination that it's best to reveal more land first, and then worry about the coasts when we're closer to settling, but with recent revelations I'm feeling less strong about that.

Based on what we have seen so far and the exclusion of the Great Lighthouse I would be happy to place a strong bet on something similar to the image I posted on the last page.

I don't know the exact numbers but I'm sure someone does but the Great Lighthouse receives a fairly large bonus for inter-continental trade routes. If everyones capitals are on an island that can only fit 2 or 3 cities then the team that gets the GL built will have an amazingly powerful wonder because all the extra trade routes in the early game will be inter-continental.

I can't think of any other reason why they would omit a wonder without it being incredibly overpowering.

EDIT: Just read Grants post and I agree. Having home 'bases' that can't be reached for a very long time is very interesting. And won't we look like superstars with our Unique Unit...

Now that the image finally wants to load I vote for a movement SW (1). I know its not optimal but if the map is designed as a few of us are speculating then its the best idea because we will see our entire landmass pretty shortly.

Actually I think I want to change my vote to West since there is a hill there, should show us more tiles.

Looks like were going to have some silk to trade later on. :)

I have a theory about how this map has been designed. I think they might have made it so that connections between the starting islands and other islands will only form from culture spreading over ocean tiles and making them navigable by galleys and workboats. If the map was made in this way the home islands will be safe from invasion until Astronomy, but we'll be able to fight for non home territory once that cultural connection is established. I think this would be an amazingly cool idea. This is of course highly speculative until we see more of the map.
Very interesting idea. That's entirely possible. Although, teams might still have to be careful of other teams founding cities on the edge of the main continent to open up an ocean tile to get into another team's island. We'll actually be in the best position to do that, being Creative.

And if the map is like this... wow, we certainly picked a winner for a civ, with our UU/UB. Of course, the other teams will know that, so we'll have to watch we don't get ganged up on... ;)

My vote is NW in case that wasn't clear (I gave a bunch of numbers then talk about SW, but my first number was 7). Going SW this turn just gives us tiles we'll get either after next turn when the borders pop or soon enough when the warrior turns south anyway.

I'm just more worried about the team that picked Ragnar, their UU and UB is going to be great on this map.

I agree with sending out WB for exploring. Not sure if we should do it before or after the setter. I think it depends on what we uncover with the exploring warriors.

I think W is slightly better than NW. If we go NW and the coast curves inward to the SW, the warrior will be out of a turn. That, quicker ability to see most of our landmass, and the relative importance of land tiles here (since we are almost certain to either have an exploring workboat or another warrior that goes along the coast early) get me to vote W>NW>SW, with all other options being stupid.

I also think W next is better to determine if the other coast is 2 tiles W or if the land mass extends further. I would move W then SW on the next turn. Moving SW on this turn would be my next preference.

I think W is slightly better than NW. If we go NW and the coast curves inward to the SW, the warrior will be out of a turn.

The fog-gazing tells us that there's land two tiles west doesn't it? Looks like it from the screenshot. So he won't be out a turn going NW.

That said, I'm joining the W bandwagon anyway because it's not SW :)

Looks like W is the leading candiate now. I'll switch my vote to that for the sake of consensus, it's a good move as well.

Hopefully Quatronia can make the hard decision of how to move their warrior so we can see what's beyond the fog.

The fog-gazing tells us that there's land two tiles west doesn't it? Looks like it from the screenshot. So he won't be out a turn going NW.

That said, I'm joining the W bandwagon anyway because it's not SW :)

To clarify, I didn't mean we'd be out of a turn immediately -- you are right, that isn't possible because of the fog-gazing. But you can imagine a coast line that's headed directly south for a while, further to the west.

Why do you people hate exploring coastline so much?

To clarify, I didn't mean we'd be out of a turn immediately -- you are right, that isn't possible because of the fog-gazing. But you can imagine a coast line that's headed directly south for a while, further to the west.

If the coast does that, then we're looking more and more like being on a small island, in which case exploring along the coast line starts to make complete sense.

Why do you people hate exploring coastline so much?

I've got nothing against it in general, I just didn't want to do it first. Finding the overall shape of the continent/island we're on is much more interesting than finding out what's on a few sea squares.

Now that we're looking more and more like being on an island however I'm much more inclined to hug the coastline and look for distant shores.

[QUOTE=Irgy;9082538]If the coast does that, then we're looking more and more like being on a small island, in which case exploring along the coast line starts to make complete sense.


Okay, I'm now equally amenable to NW.

I'm also open to NW. We're up, so we should finalize a decision soon. :)

I'll change my vote to W. Didn't see the hill at first and it will reveal lots of coast as well to explore that much loved coast :P

Why do you people hate exploring coastline so much?

:) Sorry Azzaman. Speaking for myself, from our starting position I thought it was better to head inland, and my subsequent votes were sticking with that plan. That said, if the next move shows we are indeed on a small island, I would agree it would be a good idea to switch to coastal exploration to better define our geographic limits, and see if other islands are within WB/galley exploration range.

I vote for SW. Reveals more land tiles I think.

We should explore the coast! Like azzaman has been saying, we are clearly on a small island, so exploring the maximum number of land tiles is pointless. Also seafood is a useful resource and if we explore the coast now it saves having to go back and do that later.

Taking everyone's most recent votes, along with either stated or implied second preferences, so far we have:

Irgy: NW, W
Allan97: W
AlphaShard: W
grant2004: SW, W
champinoman: W, SW
dima42: W/NW
Trstero: W, SW
Lord Parkin: NW?
Zjoekov: SW

Pairwise preferences:
W v SW: 6-2
W v NW: 5-1(2?)
NW v SW: 4-3

I'd say that's pretty clear for west actually. hell_hound and azzaman333 have state a preference for exploring the coast as well, which suggests W or NW.

NW, fwiw.

I vote W. SW will be opened up when our city borders expand. 5 turns since we're creative.

Just logged in to check demographics. While I was there I noticed from the colour of the water; it's quite clear to me that there's land just outside of our visibility range to the southeast. There's 1 square of ocean for a number of tiles, meaning the land kind of imitates the shape of our land for a while. It all seems a little artificial in that sense.

Our creative trait will help us reach it sooner, yay for us.

I know it isn't the right place to ask, but I didn't find the answer or a good place:
What is the password to see the game please?

I know it isn't the right place to ask, but I didn't find the answer or a good place:
What is the password to see the game please?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=359787

I'm still sticking with NW, but if the majority wants W then I guess that's what we'll do. Not a huge difference anyway. ;)

Straight west is a terrible move. NW or SW, preferably north.

I like NW myself

Not moving along the diagonal makes me crazy.

Not moving along the diagonal makes me crazy.

In that case I switch my vote to NW. Dont want to contribute to anyones mental breakdowns. :crazyeye:

Seriously though...it doesn't matter either way.

Thank you champoniman

Can someone confirm that 2W of warrior is land? If so I have no objections to the growing NW movement. If its coast then I object as its a dead end.

I tried to check the tile 2W and made a slight mistake. Hit the '4' instead of 'arrow left'. :(
And just as I was about to confirm that moving NW '7' would be ok because the tile does look like land.
sorry :blush:

Confirming the tile 2W is definitely land, and there are fish off the coast.

Not moving along the diagonal makes me crazy.

Fair enough. I am not that committed to 1W. I will agree to moving NW toward the coast if others think that is the better move.

Edit: Never mind, I just saw DaveShack's post.

I didn't realize the game had started. :(

Subscription added.

I tried to check the tile 2W and made a slight mistake. Hit the '4' instead of 'arrow left'. :(
And just as I was about to confirm that moving NW '7' would be ok because the tile does look like land.
sorry :blush:

Confirming the tile 2W is definitely land, and there are fish off the coast.

:gripe::aargh::suicide:

This day keeps getting worse and worse :(

Can you post the turn up then please :)

Well for better or worse we see more land, there's more gold and fish. I think we found a good city site here.

This is looking more and more like a smallish island. If that's the case then the specifics of early warrior turns are less and less important as we'll have explored the entirety of the island well before we hit size 4 and produce our first settler.

With that said, we might as well kick off the next move vote for the warrior :mischief:
I vote SW

Yeah I vote sw as well.

I tried to check the tile 2W and made a slight mistake. Hit the '4' instead of 'arrow left'. :(
And just as I was about to confirm that moving NW '7' would be ok because the tile does look like land.
sorry :blush:

Confirming the tile 2W is definitely land, and there are fish off the coast.

I know I shouldn't but I just laughed. :P :):):):) happens.

And I think you got a little lucky anyway. You revealed a nice hill to the SW that will be perfect for next turn. And as pindicator said, if its a small island its going to matter very little about our warrior movements very soon. This guy might be able to do 2 laps before we even have a settler at this rate of coastal discovery.

Never mind, at least our turn's played. I just logged in to hit "end turn". :)

I agree with the others that this looks almost certainly like a small island, and thus it doesn't really matter about the early Warrior movements. We'll be able to move him around the island several times over before our second city is founded, so it's no loss. ;)

Still, SW next turn looks like the obvious move.

This island may be so small that we never see a barb on it. 2 warriors might be able to execute a full barb bust.

Interesting to note the resources we are discovering too. We have no variance. 1 initial happy resource (x3), 1 initial health resource (x3) and 1 calendar happy resource (x3). It makes the first person we discover very important because I'd imagine they will have a similar scenario but with slightly different resources.

The tile 2W looks like the end of a small peninsula. I'll vote for SW on to the gold hill as well.

If it is a small island and if resources are diverse, then we have an advantage because our resources are the best.

If it is a small island and if resources are diverse, then we have an advantage because our resources are the best.

Silk is a pretty crappy resource. I'd probably prefer to cottage over any silks that fall within a commerce city than actually bother to hook them up.

Gold and Fish are nice though.

Interesting to note the resources we are discovering too. We have no variance. 1 initial happy resource (x3), 1 initial health resource (x3) and 1 calendar happy resource (x3). It makes the first person we discover very important because I'd imagine they will have a similar scenario but with slightly different resources.

I agree the extra resources will make for good trades. I suspect that is the way this map has been designed to encourage trade.

I agree the extra resources will make for good trades. I suspect that is the way this map has been designed to encourage trade.
Yeah, I agree. I suspect the other teams will have similar starts, perhaps with 1 seafood resource, 1 of Gold/Silver/Gems, and 1 Calendar resource... maybe with an extra resource type for the weaker resources (e.g. Crab/Clam). So we'll all be able to trade if we so desire.

Silk is a pretty crappy resource. I'd probably prefer to cottage over any silks that fall within a commerce city than actually bother to hook them up.
Hmm... I'm not so sure. Personally I'd prioritise cottaging riverside tiles over Silk tiles, because at some point we'll want access to the Silk for trading. And it's a shame to destroy mature cottages to get access to a resource. Of course, if there are no other tiles to cottage, cottaging a Silk before Calendar is fine.

Don't destroy the cottages. We only need one source of silk.

Any silk outside of our commerce cities can be farmed at first, and have a plantation later, but any in our commerce cities should just be cottaged.

What about trading for resources we don't have?

It may be wise to maintain extra silks for trading. I'm wondering if the presence of 3 of each gold, silk and fish so far is a coincidence, or if we're being set up to form two alliances with 3 teams each. As long as we've got a resource to exchange for every silk, not putting a plantation on them would be throwing away an extra happiness resource.

I also agree on SW, seems like the best move this turn.

Trade resources that aren't Silk. Screw silk, it sucks.

Still gives an extra happy though. And we only have 2 resources on our island that aren't Silk, as far as we can see. Not saying we need to prioritise it, but at some point we may need to have that Silk on hand. Anyway, that's an issue for the future. ;)

Trade resources that aren't Silk. Screw silk, it sucks.

Sorry this makes no sense, Silk is a +6 commerce (with our Fin trait) and is better then sugar and Ivory as far as Commerce goes. With two spare Silk we can trade for happiness resources we do not have for bigger Happy cap. It's far too early to decide to not use silk for trade.

Plantation on Silk gives +3 commerce, +1 for fin, +1 for the silk itself.

A village on silk gives +3 commerce (+4 with PP), +1 for fin, +1 for the silk itself.

A town on silk gives +4 commerce (+1 with PP, +2 with FS, +1 hammer with US), +1 for fin, +1 for this silk itself.

9:commerce:1:hammers: vs 5:commerce:

What's wrong with silk? It comes late, but towns come later.
Plantation - 3C.
Village - 3C or 4C.
Town - 4C or 5C.
IMO all depends on general strategy and, above all, when workers are free to build the cottage and when calender is researched.

Villages are just as good as a plantation of silk before Printing Press.

That's 30 turns of working the cottage/hamlet before it's as good, and 60 before it's better.

Right, but a village or town on a river will net the same result. Better to prioritise cottaging all our river tiles before considering cottaging Silk tiles. ;)

Right, but a village or town on a river will net the same result. Better to prioritise cottaging all our river tiles before considering cottaging Silk tiles. ;)

I never said otherwise. Just that I think sticking plantations on silk is horribly inefficient.

Still +5 commerce without waiting for growth does not constitue suckage. We can still use it for trade.

Compare that to gold, which gives 8 commerce per turn.

Silk just sucks.

Right, but nothing is as good as Gold, so making comparisons to Gold is a bit crazy. ;)

Anyway, my impression with the Silks is to wait and see until it's closer to the time.

Right, but nothing is as good as Gold, so making comparisons to Gold is a bit crazy. ;)

Anyway, my impression with the Silks is to wait and see until it's closer to the time.

I've got nothing else to argue about at the moment though :(

Well we have other tiles to develop first before the Silk ones. I was wondering if any tiles would be good for Workshops but I don't really see any and with all the hills we have probably don't need them either.

Workshops kind of suck before Guilds/Chemistry though. I never build them in the early game unless it's an exceptional circumstance. (For instance, a 2-tile island with no other way of getting hammers.)

I know I build them later as well which is why I look to see what tiles would make good Workshop locations later on, it doesn't seem like we have any now. I mostly reserve plains for Workshops and Cottages if on a river.

I also found floodplains to work well with Workshops, you can get a +5 hammer easily that way and still have two food for that tile. Though I am sure we'll probably be cottaging every flood plain we get, assuming there are any on this map.

If need be we can convert a river city to a production city with workshops/watermills later. Right now, hills are much better for production.

I don't think we should underestimate the diplomatic benefit of having additional of a resource to trade or even gift (under the right situations). I think we all would agree that a game-long ally is far superior than a few commerce.

Also (if trading optimally) each silk might get us +1 happy; and that could mean we might be able to work an extra cottage in each of our commerce cities (or at least more than one city). This more than compensates for the loss of a few commerce by working 1 silk instead of 1 cottage.

We need a lot more info on our situation to really know which way is most efficient though :)

Don't underestimate the value of +1 happy from silk.

I think I can say the simple answer is we plantation exactly the number of silks we can trade (plus one for us of course). The only issue then is guessing how many we expect to trade and cottaging the rest.

On the much more important (ok less important but more 'urgent') topic of where to move the warrior, I vote SW (onto the gold). If we want to follow the coast we can do that with SW-NW for strictly more revealed tiles than W-W anyway.

Also (if trading optimally) each silk might get us +1 happy; and that could mean we might be able to work an extra cottage in each of our commerce cities (or at least more than one city). This more than compensates for the loss of a few commerce by working 1 silk instead of 1 cottage.

We need a lot more info on our situation to really know which way is most efficient though :)

Don't underestimate the value of +1 happy from silk.

The value of +1 :) is 15 :hammers:, or one warrior, when we get Monarchy and as a result HR.

I agree on Warrior 1SW and as someone else has mentioned, I'm guessing the map is set up to force resource trading. I don't mind cottaging silks, but we should keep in mind its necessity as a trade resource.

One request, when screenshots are taken can the resource bubbles be turned on for easier clarification of what's there? Thanks!

Okay I moved the Warrior SW the island is 96% revealed with two single fogged squares.
I forgot to hit end turn, but were done.

The value of +1 :) is 15 :hammers:, or one warrior, when we get Monarchy and as a result HR.
That's per city, right? So 3 cities = 45 hammers, 10 cities = 150 hammers -- pretty sure that's enough to build something better than 10 warriors. And once you need the MP, warriors are no longer available and you have to build the next cheapest unit... There are tradeoffs in everything. ;)

I think with most of our island revealed we can make more detailed plans. Like we have flood plains for either farming or cottage. We can decide were to place our cities.

Well with the new silk we've found I guess we should cottage a few of them for sure. There's no way we'll trade that much silk with the other teams. We'll have at least a couple enemies amoung them. Also we've got a route for our exploring ship to get to the main island. More routes will open when we expand again in 22 turns.

We should also explore coastline now.

That's per city, right? So 3 cities = 45 hammers, 10 cities = 150 hammers -- pretty sure that's enough to build something better than 10 warriors. And once you need the MP, warriors are no longer available and you have to build the next cheapest unit... There are tradeoffs in everything. ;)

By deliberately avoiding Hunting, we won't obsolete Warriors. Without Camp resources, Hunting is useless anyway, so it's no loss.

By deliberately avoiding Hunting, we won't obsolete Warriors. Without Camp resources, Hunting is useless anyway, so it's no loss.
It's not useless if Amazon is nearby and competing with us for the mainland, though. We'll need Hunting for the Spears in that case. ;)

But I agree, for now we don't need Hunting.

I would move the Warrior as follows for the quickest revealing of the whole coast: 1SW, 1S, 1SE, and from there moving around all the edges of the island in a clockwise direction.

Regarding the future founding of the second city: Do we want fat cross overlap? Coastal?
I guess working the gold and floodplains is essential.

Any thoughts?

Too early to decide whether we want overlap. Once the coast is fully revealed, we can make an informed decision.

FWIW - I created a test game, using World Builder to construct our island to my best guestimation (feel free to correct it. I haven't logged in to the actual game to make sure my grasslands/plains assignments were all correct. :p).

I played the test game out to our last move. I've attached that save. (I can include the initial position if anyone want to check alternate openings.)

Edit: Updated the test save to include new silk resource and warrior movement. See this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9090108&postcount=154) post.

I agree with LP's order of movement for the Warrior. There isn't any real urgency for him anymore but this seems like the most efficient path.

I would think that there will be at least one more fish lying around somewhere as well. Possibly grouped with the ones up north.

I must say that I quite like the idea of starting on a small island. Wasn't something expected so will be good to see how we can handle it. So many variable strategies...

Time for me to make a reply about all the upcoming issues and then go into lurking for a while :).

I. Warrior movement
I could care less about the warrior's movement. My vote is that for the next 10 turns someone logs in and moves it in some way that isn't blatantly stupid. Try to explore the coastline and then end up on the far side of the island from our capital to fogbust. But, really, I don't even care about that. I'll look like an idiot when it turns out that there's a land bridge in the one square we haven't checked to our capital's north :).

II. Build order (Same conclusion as Irgy in an earlier thread)
WB>WB>WhipWorker seems superior in every way. I redid the math and got pretty much the same conclusion. Given the island development, I think our build while growing and thereafter should be a workboat rather than a warrior. There are only like eight fog tiles, and barbs warriors don't spawn forever on monarch. The extra turns on contact with other civs are hugely more important.

Overall, I like something like
WB>WB>Worker>WB>Warrior>Worker>Settler.

III. Research order
Mining>BW is obvious. I assume wheel is everyone else's third, as well, to hook up the gold. After here I like pottery to add a couple river cottage tiles to our capital, and then Writing (notably foregoing AH) and Sailing. I'm foregoing AH to speed up Sailing and the library/academy. I'm currently of the opinion that our third city should not be on this island.

Edit: I forgot we're creative. There should be pretty much no need for any warriors for barb prevention.

III. Research order
Mining>BW is obvious. I assume wheel is everyone else's third, as well, to hook up the gold. After here I like pottery to add a couple river cottage tiles to our capital, and then Writing (notably foregoing AH) and Sailing. I'm foregoing AH to speed up Sailing and the library/academy. I'm currently of the opinion that our third city should not be on this island.

Edit: I forgot we're creative. There should be pretty much no need for any warriors for barb prevention.

I disagree. It's worth getting AH before writing because
a) we will need AH at some point. It's almost a certainty.
b) because we will almost certainly need AH in the future (and it reveals horse), we should get it first for the 20% bonus. Especially if we lack copper on the island.

I think Pottery should be next Tech actually, unless you guys think there are Horse/Copper/Iron on our grassland river tiles.

I think Pottery should be next Tech actually, unless you guys think there are Horse/Copper/Iron on our grassland river tiles.

We need to find out if we have any copper in case we find neighbours when we land on the other island. We also need slavery if we are planning to whip that worker after the 2 workboats. Doing pottery first will delay the whip because the 2 workboats will finish before BW.

Now regarding skipping AH. The bonus for writing that we will miss if we skip AH comes down to 36 beakers. A library at size 6 (2 fish, 2 gold, 2 spec) will increase research by 8 beakers. So the question is, if we skip AH will we get the library up 5 turns earlier than if we research AH?

Thats terrible simple math but I know some of you here will be able to figure it out so I thought I'd ask.

Btw, If we run into a neighbour before getting AH (if we skip it) and if they have AH we receive another little bonus so that might even things out again.

However all of this is irrelevant if we don't have copper because we will need to see if we have horses.

So, we have room for 3 cities, 4 with some overlap.

I guess we can delay BW but we can go for AH to open writing.
Settler at size 3?

Yeah I forgot we needed Wheel first before we can even start on Pottery.

I was working with Trystero's save file and we can get a second workboat out and grow our city to level 3. We are coming up soon on our first WB being built so I want to make my vote for another WB and working the fish so our city can grow.

Yeah we're going to need BW so we can manage our Happy cap. We do need sailing to find other land to settle on as well.

I've attached a file from my test game for proposed city locations. I also attached another from the actual game showing some land to the SE of our captial and I hope it doesn't take til Astro to get settlers on it.

So yeah we need to explore our coast and get some ships out ASAP.

I had settled the first city south of the river so it's a port city, the Dike will activate hammers for the river tiles.

I've attached a file from my test game for proposed city locations. I also attached another from the actual game showing some land to the SE of our captial and I hope it doesn't take til Astro to get settlers on it.

So yeah we need to explore our coast and get some ships out ASAP.

I had settled the first city south of the river so it's a port city, the Dike will activate hammers for the river tiles.Cities
I agree for the placement of city 2, maybe city 3 is better placed 1SW. We have even room for a 4th city, if we don't care much some overlapping.

The land SE of the capital is reachable by galley, since the ocean tile is covered by our culture and the tile next to it is coast (of course). What we need to discover is it it's a one-tile-island or similar or if it's a true landmass, maybe the main one.

One thing i see is that we have 2 luxuries but only one health resource (fish).
Health can be a problem and the harbor can't help much with just a single type of seafood.

About silk.
I'm all for plantations on it. Perhaps, if our worker is free enough, farm them before calendar. No cottages, whose benefits compared to a plantation arrive in the mid-game, not mentioning the need to work a poor tile until it arrives to village.

And the resource trading can be surely interesting, seen our situation. I don't think we'll wage wars with anyone we'll meet, right? Or at least not too soon.

I was working with Trystero's save file and we can get a second workboat out and grow our city to level 3. We are coming up soon on our first WB being built so I want to make my vote for another WB and working the fish so our city can grow.Completely agreed. Another WB, then worker.

When do barb galleys start arriving?

Well game speed is picking up it's our turn again! Woohoo!

Anyways Workboat has two turns to go, I can put another one in it's build list. I haven't moved warrior yet but I was thinking 1sw to clear up the last of the fog on that part of the island. Then hug the coast going either north or south.

We need to find out if we have any copper in case we find neighbours when we land on the other island. We also need slavery if we are planning to whip that worker after the 2 workboats. Doing pottery first will delay the whip because the 2 workboats will finish before BW.

Now regarding skipping AH. The bonus for writing that we will miss if we skip AH comes down to 36 beakers. A library at size 6 (2 fish, 2 gold, 2 spec) will increase research by 8 beakers. So the question is, if we skip AH will we get the library up 5 turns earlier than if we research AH?

Thats terrible simple math but I know some of you here will be able to figure it out so I thought I'd ask.

Btw, If we run into a neighbour before getting AH (if we skip it) and if they have AH we receive another little bonus so that might even things out again.

However all of this is irrelevant if we don't have copper because we will need to see if we have horses.

If we avoid AH we save X turns but loose 36 beakers in free science because we'll research writing without an aditional pre-req. If we avoid AH we can produce our library X turns earlier, thus gaining X turns of +25% research. We will also be able to start using a scientist X turns earlier, meaning our great scientist will arrive X turns earlier as well, and will found the Academy X turns earlier, giving us X turns of +50% research.

X is equal to how long it would take us to research AH before writing minus however many extra turns we need to research writing without those additional 36 beakers.

The capital will produce 29 base beakers at size 6 if it is not running scientists, but will produce 35 if it runs two scientists. I will assume that we will run two scientists for the 17 turns necessary to prouduce our great scientist and will then return to running no scientists.

At 29 beakers per turn it will take about 5 turns to finish AH, and about 6 turns to finish writing without the additional pre-req. So X should be 3 or 4 depending on beaker overflow.

So with X=3, the worst case scenario, avoiding AH will grant us 3 turns of +25% on 29 beakers and 3 turns of +50% on 29 beakers, or 65.25 beakers. This is greater than the 36 beakers we would loose by not taking advantage of writing's pre-req, so I think we should skip AH. Do you guys agree with this analysis?

As a side note, I agree that we should trust the turnplayer to move the warrior in an inteligent manner, without having to debate each move individually. Explore the coast fully, and do it as quickly as possible.

Apparently we have even MORE Silk present. With 6 silks it seems silly not to trade any of it, especially as we do need more happyness and health resources.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=249225&stc=1&d=1271003325

Yeah at this point it's pretty much just one way for the warrior to go and that's to hug the coast going north.

So now we should confirm that WB will be the next build. The city will finally be able to grow if we work the fish when the first WB is done and settled on it. We'll have a Pop 3 city by the time the Second WB is done.

The color of that water to the SW looks kinda light, is it sea or another coast?

Might want to put the SW city on the south coast -- we should decide that after finding out which way is more likely to be a sea bridge, S or W.

Someone posted about having a stone / marble start in the Great Lighthouse thread. I wonder if that is misinformation?

If I were DaveMcW, I might put copper or iron on that hill right in the center.

You have a point we have a number of bare hills that could have strategic resources.

Well game speed is picking up it's our turn again! Woohoo!

Anyways Workboat has two turns to go, I can put another one in it's build list. I haven't moved warrior yet but I was thinking 1sw to clear up the last of the fog on that part of the island. Then hug the coast going either north or south.

I thought by the discussions so far that we were thinking of moving the warrior SW > S > SE per LP's plan. Why in the actual game did we end up moving directly S? :confused: By moving to the coast we would have revealed additional water tiles, and any potential resources thereupon.

Also, I don't really see the need to put things in the queue at this point. We only have one city. Let's leave some time for any dissenting opinions.

I've updated the Test Save to include the newly revealed silk resource and the latest warrior move (1S).

I think the warrior have to go SW to reveal all the coast.
then back north to finish to clean the fog.

We'll put our city #2 on the newly discovered silk, i think.
If there's copper in that center hill as suggested by DS, better for that city :)

Yeah I forgot we needed Wheel first before we can even start on Pottery.
We don't need Pottery until our Worker will actually have time to build cottages (mines/chops first), and our cities will actually have a need to work them (which may not be the case with our capital for a while... aren't we planning on going 2 Fish/2 Gold/2 Scientists? So no room for cottages.)

I've attached a file from my test game for proposed city locations. I also attached another from the actual game showing some land to the SE of our captial and I hope it doesn't take til Astro to get settlers on it.
I think we should wait for planning our island cities until the coast is revealed. We might still have more seafood out in the fog. :)

When do barb galleys start arriving?
Not for a while... not sure of exact date, after 2000 BC or something I think; might be when 5/6 teams have researched Sailing. Either way, hopefully it won't matter for us. If we have 1 tile of ocean sealing us off from the mainland on all sides, then barb Galleys (just like the Galleys of other teams) won't be able to enter our borders.

Someone posted about having a stone / marble start in the Great Lighthouse thread. I wonder if that is misinformation?
Misinformation, I assumed. Otherwise his team would have gone wild at him for revealing their start. It's interesting to consider what might have been done with the Marble/Stone though. Personally I wouldn't be too worried if one team got most/all of it. Sure it's powerful, but having so many wonders would make them stick out in score so much that they'd probably be a target for the rest of the game. I'd be more worried if half the teams had access to Marble/Stone and half didn't - then a an alliance of Marble/Stone civs would have quite an advantage.

Let's continue the discussion about obsolete's post here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=361013). :)

Sorry I didn't think he was close enough to reveal more coast. Still did find more silk.

Sorry I didn't think he was close enough to reveal more coast. Still did find more silk.

It's not a big deal, but by moving S you only revealed the one silk tile. If you went SW you would have revealed that silk tile along with more water tiles. Regardless, if we move SW next, we should reveal most of those water tiles. And I agree, let's have the warrior then move along the N coast next.

SW was superior to S, but it doesn't matter at all. We should go SW -> SE next though to reveal most of the coast we missed. Everyone was too busy talking about other things.

After that the plan was to circle clockwise, however I suggest we move directly NE and circle anti-clockwise. It's exactly the same number of moves to reveal all the tiles we can, but we reveal the areas in the north east that we know less about sooner.

In 21 turns time when our borders pop, we can spawn-bust the entire landmass with 1 warrior if we put it in the right place. Until then we would need 2, but I don't think it's worth bothering to build the second before then at all anyway.

I'm not going to plan any cities at all until I see the seafood. We need to settle in a way that claims all of the seafood that's available and doesn't leave any land tiles unworked. This island should become our commerce centre for the game, as it will be likely to be better protected from attack than any claims we make on the main continent.

Techwise, I'd seriously consider sailing before writing (and therefore probably before AH as well), depending on the timing. Lighthouse gives us 2 food, paying for itself in 30 turns (with a 1 for 1 food to hammer conversion, generally food is better than that). Earlier galleys will give us a head-start on exploring/settling other landmasses. It depends on the timing though, if we're too busy building workers and settlers to build a lighthouse or a galley anyway then there's no point.

I was also going to suggest pottery before the wheel, but then realised the flaw in that plan... :)

One other thing; we really need to decide soon what our second build is. I propose an in-thread poll between the two apparent best candidates:
1. Workboat -> Worker
2. Workboat -> Workboat -> (1 pop whip) Worker
3. Something different.

The main difference is basically:
1: 38 food, 131 hammers, 105 commerce after 27 turns
2: 54 food, 150 hammers, 71 commerce after 27 turns
This is according to my working on page 2 of the starting position thread. We're not voting on my exact micro plan (in particular we may not want to revolt to slavery at all yet under option 1), but it gives the basic idea. It's pretty much 1 for 1 commerce->hammer/food trade off, the question is which is more important for us at this stage.

My vote: 2.
I think the hammers are worth more - although I feel less strongly about it now that we know we're on an island.

I think your option 2) is not doable, since BW can't probably be researched by the time we can use the whip for the worker.
Also, without a granary i don't like to use the whip to have the CAPITAL again at size 1 after some 20 turns.

I think the best way to use our financial trait is research AH-writing while building a second WB and a worker after it. then a warrior or an exploring WB (which we can use later for another seafood if we discover it) and a settler once at size 3.

and a library somewhere, maybe instead of the warrior, or right after the settler.

For some reason my Internet browsers (IE and Firefox) are both refusing to work right now. I am posting from my iPod touch. Anyways I moved warrior 1sw and found 2 fish one in the south coast and the other on the west coast. Now the warrior will go north just wondering if it should be straight or zig zag. Also the entire south coast is revealed.

This is making me rethink the city placement with more seafood. I will get this screenshot up some how.

I am also not crazy about whipping the first worker. I won't have time to play through many test games in the next ciouple of days, but I ran some calculations earlier (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9057534&postcount=31), and found that we'd finish the WB 3 turns before we could whip the worker. Also, since we are Financial, I think more commerce earlier would be a good way to exploit our trait. That makes me think we want to mine the gold sooner. Being on the island I think an early boost to our research (via commerce) would be more beneficial than an early production boost.

I vote for second workboat and working the fish tile to make our city grow to level 3 when the boat is done.

Wow, We've moved again already? That's two turns in the last 12 hours. AlphaShard, although there was nothing particularly controversial with your move, you might want to slow down a bit and let people in other timezones get a chance to chime in. This will be especially true now that we are close to deciding what the next build will be, and I don't think we've reached a consensus on that topic yet.

Oh I understand, I'm rather surprised we got to move this much, but at least we have time to decide our next build, which tile to work and it would be good to vote for next Tech as well.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=249268&stc=1&d=1271026187

I'm fairly sure someone has already checked that bronzeworking will come in time to do it, although we need to confirm this of course. Easy enough to do with someone's worldbuilder game. It may not come before we start on the worker, but it should come in time to revolt (mid worker build) and whip.

Blubmuz: Your suggestion isn't actually all that different from option 2, it's just the tech path and the whip. The whip is definately worthwhile, even without a granary. While building a worker, we get 1 food -> 1 hammer. The whip at pop 3->2 without a granary gets us 24 food -> 30 hammers. Because we build the worker sooner, we start using food as food again sooner, and we finish up completely replacing the whipped food during the time we would otherwise have spent converting food to hammers anyway building the worker. We grow back very quickly with two fish, so the hammers we lose by having 1 less population aren't more than the hammers we gain from the better food hammer conversion of whipping. So basically the worker turns come pretty much for free.

We lose a turn of anarchy for slavery, but I honestly think we'll want to whip more in the near future anyway. 3-pop whipping a settler for instance is often a very efficient move.

It's worth getting bronze working early for chopping if nothing else. The library will take a lot of turns if we don't either whip or chop it, so bronze before writing doesn't delay the library by as much as it might at first appear. Working the gold sooner thanks to the worker whip will pay back some of bronze working's beakers as well.

To no-one in particular: Honestly, the argument shouldn't be about the micro at all. It's not immediately obvious that it would be, but the numbers show the workboat->workboat->whip worker option (credit to azzaman for coming up with it by the way, it wasn't my idea) is genuinely the best option for food/hammers. If someone wants to dispute that then they really need to do the math or run a practise game to back it up, as working out the details trumps general intuitions about these things.

The argument should mostly be about the relative values of 35 food/hammers and 34 beakers. Will the beakers lead to the techs we need to pay for REX, or will food and hammers give us population that will eventually replace the beakers?

The issue of whether hammers or beakers will hold up the library more is one relatively nearby critical point, although there's a lot of different paths to it, and it still depends what we prioritise the library over.

I'm fairly sure someone has already checked that bronzeworking will come in time to do it, although we need to confirm this of course. Easy enough to do with someone's worldbuilder game. It may not come before we start on the worker, but it should come in time to revolt (mid worker build) and whip.

Confirmed.

Also, strongly seconding that WB>WB>WhipWorker is the best start to this game. This is the sort of thing that shouldn't be settled by a poll, but rather should be settled by the best ideas worked out in math.

Yes I've whipped the hell out of my cities in Marathon and that Speed really punishes you with 30 turns per :mad:. It is workable and I can attest to how quickly you can build things with enough food and Granary in place. If we don't micro (Fish and 3H Hill) then we will be at level 3 when Worker is ready to be built. Also the workboat will take 15 turns and Bronzeworking 11.

Your arguments seems solid, just some test to verify and i can subscribe them.

Hi,

I am proposing the following challenge.
Play the attached save until you have a library built while not prioritizing it over a second city (you must have at least two cities and two workers by when your library is complete)

Post results with turn you have accomplished this, number of forests chopped, and the research situation you are currently at.

Edit: My first run at this had me done with a library on turn 47, with production having been four workboats, two workers, a settler, and a library. I am 270/373 research on mathematics, which I arbitrarily chose after writing. I skipped AH, although that is still for debate. I chopped two forests, and have not poprushed anything aside the first worker.

Edit: I apologize that the flood plains are 4 food instead of 3. I'll fix that soon, not that it really matters. Reedit: fixed

I'm dubious about whipping the Worker, but I'll have to run some tests later.

I think it was mentioned somewhere earlier, but just to confirm, I'm opposed to building a Settler until we're size 4. It's a huge waste if we're not working one of the Gold tiles while we build it.

I'm dubious about whipping the Worker, but I'll have to run some tests later.

I think it was mentioned somewhere earlier, but just to confirm, I'm opposed to building a Settler until we're size 4. It's a huge waste if we're not working one of the Gold tiles while we build it.

Agreeing. Settler should not be built until pop 4.

That is easily doable even if we have to make extra warriors or wb to do so.

I guess it will be a workboat for exploring as we don't need more than the initial warrior for a while yet.

Next build I'm inclined towards WB. Warrior should move SE to clear out the remaining water, as everyone else has already stated. I agree with the clockwise motion of our warrior though.

I am proposing the following challenge.
Play the attached save until you have a library built while not prioritizing it over a second city (you must have at least two cities and two workers by when your library is complete)


I got the library done on turn 40, made 3 work boats, two workers, a settler.
tech- mining>BW>AH>writing>wheel>36/119 pottery (dont know much about tech order so this could probbly be better) Chopped 3 forests no whip

The turn changed again, I didn't move the Warrior yet, I did add the WB but we can still change it if needed.

I noticed that CDZ's score went up from 33 to 39. Did their capital grow? Did they finish a tech? If so, it'd have to be a cheap tech. They started with Fishing and Hunting, so it'd have to be something else. Any thoughts?

Before I run test games, can I ask what our short term goal is here? Deciding what to build or tech next depends on what that goal actually is. In dima42's challenge the goal is build a library ASAP after getting a second city, but it would be better if we agree on what actually is our immediate goal (or goals). Is it a library ASAP? Research Sailing ASAP? Get a Work Boat our for exploration? Hook up and work both gold hills?

I guess what I am asking for is establishing a short term set of priorities. What is the most important thing we do right now? That would greatly aid my thinking about this game, and how to run tests. Thanks.

Maybe Hunting that seems pretty cheap.

Zero need for Hunting right now. And you might send Azz into a rant if you suggest it. :p

We need Bronze Working ASAP for the chops, if nothing else. Our Worker needs things to do after mining the Gold resources, and chopping will keep him busy for a while (not to mention helping us out with build times). Not to mention the potential revelation of Copper, and the ability to whip if we desire. So in my mind there is a clear argument for going for Bronze Working as our next tech.

For our next build, that could be either Work Boat or Worker. Warrior is pointless now that we know we're on a tiny island. I'll do some testing tonight to determine my own opinion on what works better - Work Boat or Worker next.

Zero need for Hunting right now. And you might send Azz into a rant if you suggest it. :p

I think he was referring to the tech that boosted the other teams score. Maybe a furs monopoly?

They started with Hunting though (as I already said). So it can't be that.

Well it has to be wither Mining or Mysticism. Is it possible to get those beakers in 5 turns?

(pop isn't worth 6 points is it? I haven't checked but I'm sure its either 2 or 3 on these settings)

Yeah Champ had it right I meant the other Civ, not us.

Oh and just so everyone knows I did settle the WB on the closet Fish.

I agree with Trystero, we need some long term goals becuase I don't think we have a consensus on what is the right tech to do since we don't have a long term goal. We may or may not have copper on our island, we also need to build cottages and more cities, not to mention getting off the Island.

What we need is a game plan.

We're definitely going to want a city on the plains-hill on the NW corner of the island at some point. We can already see that spot has 2 Fish, 2 Flood Plains, 2 Silks and 1 Gold. Moving to any other tile would lose at least one of the Fish resources. It has to be there, regardless of what else we discover.

I thought we already had a long term goal? REX as fast as possible, get Academy, avoid wonders, explore the mainland and surroundings as fast as possible, and go from there. We really can't decide much more about our long-term strategy until we find out who our nearest neighbours are. If we're next to CDZ and Amazons, our long-term strategy will have to be significantly different than if we're next to Mavericks and Quatronia, for instance. ;)

I thought we already had a long term goal? REX as fast as possible, get Academy, avoid wonders, explore the mainland and surroundings as fast as possible, and go from there. We really can't decide much more about our long-term strategy until we find out who our nearest neighbours are. If we're next to CDZ and Amazons, our long-term strategy will have to be significantly different than if we're next to Mavericks and Quatronia, for instance. ;)

Sure, but I was looking for something more short term. My understanding of our current specific aims are as follows:

1. Tech BW after Mining, since this opens both whipping and chopping. Follow that with the tech path toward Writing (including AH).

2. After Writing (to build libraries and run scientists) get Sailing.

3. Grow to work both fish and gold hills in Sirius.

4. Get a WB out to explore the neighboring land mass so we can determine where to send our first settler. I'm thinking this will be the 3rd WB, after we first build at least one Worker and a Warrior (to garrison Sirius).


To no-one in particular: Honestly, the argument shouldn't be about the micro at all. It's not immediately obvious that it would be, but the numbers show the workboat->workboat->whip worker option (credit to azzaman for coming up with it by the way, it wasn't my idea) is genuinely the best option for food/hammers. If someone wants to dispute that then they really need to do the math or run a practise game to back it up, as working out the details trumps general intuitions about these things.

The argument should mostly be about the relative values of 35 food/hammers and 34 beakers. Will the beakers lead to the techs we need to pay for REX, or will food and hammers give us population that will eventually replace the beakers?

The issue of whether hammers or beakers will hold up the library more is one relatively nearby critical point, although there's a lot of different paths to it, and it still depends what we prioritise the library over.

This is precisely why I think we need to know specifically what we are going do in the short term. It is hard to assess the benefits of a particular path unless we know where we want to go with it.

Sure, but I was looking for something more short term. My understanding of our current specific aims are as follows:

1. Tech BW after Mining, since this opens both whipping and chopping. Follow that with the tech path toward Writing (including AH).

2. After Writing (to build libraries and run scientists) get Sailing.

3. Grow to work both fish and gold hills in Sirius.

4. Get a WB out to explore the neighboring land mass so we can determine where to send our first settler. I'm thinking this will be the 3rd WB, after we first build at least one Worker and a Warrior (to garrison Sirius).


I think this sums up nicely our immediate tech short-term goals. After playing with the world builder saves I would only tinker with it a little bit:

#1 - If we plan on building a library immediately after the first settler then there is not enough time to research Wheel, Pottery & AH before taking on Writing. Either Pottery or AH needs to wait. In my test runs I made AH wait, but it only took 4 turns after Sailing (and building the library) to research AH.

#2 - agreed

#3 - this is why I took pottery over AH -- we'll want to grow onto cottage tiles while we grow to size 6. Do we also want to build a lighthouse after the Library? This doesn't really inspire REXing, building so much infrastructure and growing to size 6, then also waiting for a Great Person to be born before building another settler in the capital.

#4 - 3rd workboat is good, but a 2nd warrior may not be necessary until after the library. At monarch level our happy cap is 5 and we can grow to size 4 without any problems. Considering that's the target for our first settler and we're on a small island, I don't see a need for another warrior unless we can fit one into the specific build order.


With this in mind, I ran a few test cases. You can double check my work at a google docs spreadsheet i threw together while working with worldbuilder:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Aq1HHkrNt0f-dFpMdnZmcnVxLVhmdjI0Mjcwalh1UXc&hl=en

Case #1 -
Build Order: Workboat -> Worker -> Workboat -> Workboat -> Settler -> Library

On T39 we have 1 settler, 3 work boats, 1 warrior, 1 worker, library. Worker has chopped 3 forests and Sirius has 12/28 food in the box.

Tech path: Mining -> BW -> Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing -> Sailing -> AH
Total of 680 commerce produced; AH had 1 turn of 0% invested (due to 2nd city maintenance) and would complete in 3 turns).

Case #2 -
Build Order: Workboat -> Workboat -> Worker (whip) -> Workboat -> Warrior -> Settler -> Library

On T40 we have 1 settler, 3 work boats, 2 warriors, 1 worker, library. Worker has chopped 2 forests and Sirius has 13/28 food in the box

Same tech path as above, had just finished Sailing and was about to start AH. Total of 655 commerce produced.


Some of this may be reinventing the wheel but I hope showing my work will help us spur some concrete discussion rather than "I got xx on Turn yy"

Also, please let me know if the build path can be improve for either option or if I did a total :smoke: on some of my computations. I mirrored them with playing the wb save in game so they should be good... Should be :)

We're definitely going to want a city on the plains-hill on the NW corner of the island at some point. We can already see that spot has 2 Fish, 2 Flood Plains, 2 Silks and 1 Gold. Moving to any other tile would lose at least one of the Fish resources. It has to be there, regardless of what else we discover.

I thought we already had a long term goal? REX as fast as possible, get Academy, avoid wonders, explore the mainland and surroundings as fast as possible, and go from there. We really can't decide much more about our long-term strategy until we find out who our nearest neighbours are. If we're next to CDZ and Amazons, our long-term strategy will have to be significantly different than if we're next to Mavericks and Quatronia, for instance. ;)

I second all of the above. I'll also go so far as to say that I cannot imagine anywhere is going to be a better second city than that NW spot. It's good use of land, it's unlikely not to be the best city site available, and being in the far corner it will spread our culture over the island faster than anything else. Only thing I can think of that might change it is finding copper at another site.


With this in mind, I ran a few test cases. You can double check my work at a google docs spreadsheet i threw together while working with worldbuilder:


That's some excellent work. So, it looks like the difference between the two paths hasn't changed much even up to the library at around turn 40. The whip-worker path is ahead a warrior and a forest, which is your 35 hammers difference right there. Commerce difference hasn't changed much either, just narrowed a little to 25. The worker-second path is ahead a turn, but isn't running slavery.

The worker-second path is however missing either an escort for the settler or a warrior to keep the peace in the capital. So that extra warrior is kind of important.

In all cases, I'd consider putting the third workboat on a fish from the second city and building another to explore. I'd seriously consider the possibility of a galley and a warrior or two as the main exploration force, they'll start exploring later but they'll do more.


If going to look at options involving earlier sailing and more whipping for further comparison if I get time tonight, hopefully I will.

So well be going Mining --> BW, making gold mines then mining the remaining hills? I'd just hate to have an idle worker if we can't build
roads or cottages while teching the Writing. That's what was happening in a test I did belining Writing.

In both of pindicator's test cases, the worker mines both gold and then chops to speed production, so there are no idle worker turns prior to turns 39 or 40 (where his analysis ends).

I just ran a test to see what the difference would be if we waited until pop3 to 1pop whip the worker out and came up with the following results as compared to pindicator's Case#2:

Ran to Turn 41 for better comparison:
(pindicators test Vs whipping at 3pop)
Beakers in current tech: 59 Vs 54 (both have researched Mining, BW, Wheel, Pot, Wri and Sail)
Production after turn: 19 vs 31 (both have same units with library being last built)
food supplies: 17 vs 18 (will get us to pop 6 1 turn earlier)
Both cases have settler arriving at NW hill on turn 40 for settling on turn 41
Library is 1 turn later in the whip at 3pop.

What is our next build? Will getting it quicker be worth this alternative? Also getting to 6pop 1 turn earlier might be helpful for the academy.

Attached is the game file.

EDIT: Hope this works: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tg5E5CWt7kylQ49q3rbW1Ig#

I noticed that CDZ's score went up from 33 to 39. Did their capital grow? Did they finish a tech? If so, it'd have to be a cheap tech. They started with Fishing and Hunting, so it'd have to be something else. Any thoughts?

It should be easy to check whether their they grew, on the top 5 cities screen we'd obviously be able to see a size 2 city.

Also, the demographics would reflect it.

Well unless we get more votes for something else were going with WB that does seem to be the consensus...

Just remember to move the Warrior SE first before heading back north to uncover that last fog tile.

Land the the South West? That wasn't something I was expecting. We need to get the warrior up to that City C site asap to check if there is any land visible out in that direction from the hill.

Our creative trait is starting to look really handy...

P.S. The discussion link in the other thread sends you to a thread 3 pages back. I'd suggest linking it to this post as its the first one regarding this new turn.

Looking at Pindicator's annalysis I think option 2: 2nd workboat next, looks the best. I'm not sure if Irgy's suggestion to use WB#3 to fish at the second sity is a good idea. If we found the city in the NW it will take a while for WB#3 to get there, it might be smarter just to build WBs locally.

Plus I really really want to see what's on the other island :)

Actually the WB can arrive at the fish a long time before the city is even settled. Its only 6 turns to get there (might have been 5) and the WB will most likely come before the settler to allow for city growth to work the 2 golds while its being built. Add onto that the fact that the fish are not in initial city culture so it'll take another 5 turns to be able to work it.

But I also would like to know more about those 2 land masses we can see so sending the 3rd WB in that direction is a good idea. An interesting question is, has the map maker been sneaky in making the first island we saw a decoy?

see: test case 3, whipping worker at pop 3 instead of at pop 2 and growing to pop 4 asap.
result (i think): compared to pindicator's #2, 1 food, 8 hammers in exchange for 11 commerce. worth it to me...

http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AraUK8En6x3pdFZpNW9GY1B4RjUxdndvVnBLMFBvM Wc&hl=en

edit:
also, library can be done at least by turn 38 with a worker-first start. so please don't end turn just yet.
edit: okay, i've convinced myself that worker-first start is inferior.

Next site: I agree with LP and Irgy, the NW city (marked as "C" in game's map) is the one to go.
Research:Mining,BW,Wheel is ok, roads arrive on time.
So far I see hammers as less important than usual and beakers more important, lest cities have nothing to build. So, few whips and chops.
2nd city gold tile is river too, I would like it fast. Perhaps Sirius: WB, worker, settler, worker, WB.

Hammers are always important. How else do you build galleys?

Have we considered that Pindicator's case 1 (WB-Worker) gets our settler out two turns earlier? (Okay, only 1 considering Slavery revolt). Cause assuming the growth of the 2nd city isn't slowed by outside help (which I think it isn't), that would make up for a fair number of hammers.

Getting the settler out 2 turns earlier won't make up many hammers. 5pt at most at size 1.

Getting the settler out 2 turns earlier won't make up many hammers. 5pt at most at size 1.

That's why when we develop the city is important. If we build it 2 turns earlier, it will grow to size 2 turns earlier, etc.

I don't think we'd be able to develop it any faster. And even if we could, I'd doubt it'd be better than wb/wb/worker(whip)

I believe that my test case 3 (modified) is now in every way slightly superior to the case 2.
Still at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AraUK8En6x3pdFZpNW9GY1B4RjUxdndvVnBLMFBvM Wc&hl=en

When I was first doing the wb->wb->worker(whip) I was considering running a test case like that, but it was very late. Thanks for taking the time to do it dima! Looks like that is the way to go.

Now, I don't want to cut off any discussion in case there are parties who are unconvinced about wb->wb->worker(whip), but I was wondering this morning if building the library directly after the settler a good build order? Would fitting in a worker first be a better idea?

Cool. By the way, how secure is this google spreadsheet thing? I presume it's publicly accessible. If the other teams searched the right terms, wouldn't they find it? Just wondering if we should password-protect this stuff. :)

Looking at the screenshot this turn:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=249308&stc=1&d=1271069970

I'm not sure why we're not considering a city E 1 tile east of city D. It'd probably be the only way to work that plains-hill tile in the centre of the island, and doesn't lose any resources. Plus it can help the capital work more cottages faster, for a bigger bonus once we reach Bureaucracy.

fwiw, I actually ran the same example earlier: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9091956&postcount=193

I think it got skipped over :(

The reason I bring it up is that our numbers are slightly different but in a good way. I ran it to turn 41 for the completion of the library to compare with a library 1 turn old but its the same test.

I also ran a very quick with AH in there after the wheel was completed and tbh it may not be such a bad idea if we plan to get it any time soon. It didn't delay the settler and only delayed the library's completion by 2 turns. I doubt we can complete it in 2 turns after writing for quite some time.

And while I'm on a spam session:
http://www.paul-gardiner.com/civ4/CityPlacements.jpg
City 3B includes the plains hill as LP mentioned meaning every land tile will be worked for a total of 12 new workable tiles.
City 3A doesn't include the plains hill meaning its not getting worked by any city however has a total of 15 previously unworked tiles.

Plains hill Vs 2 water tiles

fwiw, I actually ran the same example earlier: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9091956&postcount=193

I think it got skipped over :(

The reason I bring it up is that our numbers are slightly different but in a good way. I ran it to turn 41 for the completion of the library to compare with a library 1 turn old but its the same test.

Sorry, I didn't realize this is what you meant, and your spreadsheet isn't accessible to me. I thought you were whipping from pop 3 to pop 1 in some line, and I had no idea how to do that.

The spreadsheet isn't accessible? Feel free to tell me how to publish it properly then. Its essentially identical with a few differences in numbers towards the end. The save file should work though and it was saved on turn 41.

And you can't whip from 3 to 1 but like yourself I have no idea why. Someone wanna explain that mechanic?

So what level are we planing on whiping the Worker from? Pop 3? Pop 2? If it's 3 then we need to continue working the Fish tile even after it goes to Pop 2.

Also Champinoman you may want to change those Plains tiles to Desert otherwise your food count will be off. I mean I'd love Plains/Flood or Grass/Flood but that's not in the game Generator.

Ran a few tests. Sorry for the rough write-up, I was in a hurry.

Tech path throughout all: BW -> The Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing -> Iron Working (placeholder)

First test

Builds: WB -> part WB -> Worker (whip) -> finish WB -> Settler -> Library -> Granary (placeholder)

Second city founded on turn 42 (+2 delayed from second test).

At start of turn 42, have 36 hammers into the placeholder Granary (-18 loss from second test), and 253 beakers in the placeholder Iron Working (-16 loss from second test). No hammers yet produced in second city (-10 from second test). Exploring Work Boat has moved 2 tiles further than in second test. Worker has chopped 2 forests (same as second test).

Second test

Builds: WB -> part WB -> Worker (no whip, no Slavery) -> finish WB -> Settler -> Library -> Granary (placeholder)

Second city founded on turn 40 (-2 quicker than first test).

At start of turn 42, have 54 hammers in the placeholder Granary (+18 from first test), and 269 beakers in the placeholder Iron Working (+16 from first test), plus 10 hammers into a Work Boat in the new city. Exploring Work Boat has moved 2 tiles less than in second test. Worker has chopped 2 forests (same as first test).

Once again I would like to emphasize that we do not need to switch to Slavery anytime soon. After the building of the Library our capital is at size 4, and we want to grow it to size 6 and keep it there ASAP for the dual scientists. We won't need to use the whip for some time, so there's no sense in wasting a key early turn in anarchy.

I was thinking for a moment that we'd need a Monument in the second city, but then remembered we're Creative. That trait definitely comes in handy! Allows us to start straight on the Work Boats, given that both the Fish are in the ocean. :D

Out of interest I tried the Worker first too.

Third test

Builds: Worker -> WB -> WB -> Settler -> Library -> Granary (placeholder)

Second city founded on turn 39 (-1 quicker than second test).

At start of turn 42, have 51 hammers in the placeholder Granary (-3 from second test), and 321 beakers in the placeholder Iron Working (+52 from second test), plus 15 hammers into a Work Boat in the new city. Exploring Work Boat has moved 8 tiles less than in the second test. Worker has chopped 4 forests. Also note capital is at size 5 (was still at size 4 in previous tests).

So in essence, either way I prefer no whipping - thus it comes down to the second test or the third test.

Summary

Going Worker -> WB. Pros: Gives us significantly more beakers (in excess of 50 extra); it allows us to found our second city a turn earlier (thus giving us 5 bonus hammers); it means the capital is at size 5 (and consequently size 6) a few turns earlier. Cons: We have chopped 4 forests rather than 2; our exploring Work Boat is 4 turns behind the other option.

Going WB -> Worker. Pros: Gives us a 4 turn bonus in exploration; gives us about the same amount of hammers but leaves us more forests still to chop. Cons: Extra turn to found the second city; much less beakers produced; capital growth is a few turns behind (still size 4 at turn 42).

After all that, would you believe I'm still undecided. :lol: I'll sleep on it and come to a decision in the morning. Basically if we go Worker next we're trading off a few turns of exploration and a couple of forests for a whole lot more beakers and slightly earlier/larger cities. On the other hand, if we go Work Boat next we're trading off a whole lot of beakers and a couple of turns of city growth for faster exploration and more hammers in the stockpile for later (from chopping forests).

I just ran a test to see what the difference would be if we waited until pop3 to 1pop whip the worker out and came up with the following results as compared to pindicator's Case#2:

Ran to Turn 41 for better comparison:
(pindicators test Vs whipping at 3pop)
Beakers in current tech: 59 Vs 54 (both have researched Mining, BW, Wheel, Pot, Wri and Sail)
Production after turn: 19 vs 31 (both have same units with library being last built)
food supplies: 17 vs 18 (will get us to pop 6 1 turn earlier)
Both cases have settler arriving at NW hill on turn 40 for settling on turn 41
Library is 1 turn later in the whip at 3pop.

What is our next build? Will getting it quicker be worth this alternative? Also getting to 6pop 1 turn earlier might be helpful for the academy.

Attached is the game file.

EDIT: Hope this works: http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=tg5E5CWt7kylQ49q3rbW1Ig#
Like dima42, I also can't access your spreadsheet.

Yeah those results are so close not sure which is better. Though we've already started the WB first path. Glad to see were not ignoring Wheel/Pottery, I was starting to get concerned about that.

Edit: I was able to access it, the spreadsheet. I used the link in post #211 though.

So what level are we planing on whiping the Worker from? Pop 3? Pop 2? If it's 3 then we need to continue working the Fish tile even after it goes to Pop 2.
The Worker has to be whipped from size 3 for the maximum efficiency, as far as I can see. But even then, it isn't as good as not going to Slavery or whipping at all.

Though we've already started the WB first path.
Not yet we haven't. Please don't anyone hit "end turn" until we finalise our decision. This turn is important to get right, we don't want to waste any hammers.

Well I wasn't arguing against Slavery or whipping, quite the opposite. I wasn't going to hit enter LP, didn't you see my post in the Tracking thread? :(

I was just putting a placeholder for SOMETHING to be there, just in case.

Nah, it's okay, I know. I was just putting that in as a reminder for anyone else who happened to log in. I know I almost hit enter by accident myself. :)

Either way, we haven't invested any hammers into the Work Boat yet, so we can still switch strategies at this point.

Lord Parkin: excellent study! But, IMHO, for third test to be perfect, research order should also exchange - Mining, Wheel, BW.
And the chops were they in or out the radii of the 2 cities?
Anyway your analisys, put me towards the worker first, a lot of beakers still increased by the
earlier academy.

I'm up for either LP's option 2 or option 3. The whip seems worse off after his analysis. I'm leaning towards option 2, but I could be talked into 3.

Lots of stuff.

I somewhat challenge your results from Test 1.

I have a city founded on turn 41 (I settled in the nw corner with the two fish).
At the start of turn 42, I have:

49 hammers into placeholder barracks.
256 beakers into Iron Working.

I don't claim this is enough to make a difference. But I'm not sure I've optimized yet, either.


For those of you keeping count:
The difference between whipping and not whipping (both in the workboat next build option) is 1 turn on city2, 5 hammers and 15 beakers, in exchange for already being in slavery.

Third test

Builds: Worker -> WB -> WB -> Settler -> Library -> Granary (placeholder)

Second city founded on turn 39 (-1 quicker than second test).

At start of turn 42, have 51 hammers in the placeholder Granary (-3 from second test), and 321 beakers in the placeholder Iron Working (+52 from second test), plus 15 hammers into a Work Boat in the new city. Exploring Work Boat has moved 8 tiles less than in the second test. Worker has chopped 4 forests. Also note capital is at size 5(was still at size 4 in previous tests).

I got 330 beakers, 12 hammers into the workboat (also founding turn 39 - are we picking different second city sites?), same 51 hammers on the granary.

so currently this is 2 extra forests to chop and 4 turns on exploration in exchange for 74 beakers and about 5 hammers on city#2; we are already in slavery (so we will lose a future turn unless we never switch to slavery, but this turn may not be a pivotal early turn).

I stand by my opinion of WB-WB-Worker(whip)

Were the last ones for this turn, could we make a descision in a few hours? I don't want to hear the other teams whining about us taking our turn.

Lord Parkin: excellent study! But, IMHO, for third test to be perfect, research order should also exchange - Mining, Wheel, BW.
Yeah, that occurred to me as well. We don't need Bronze until we're ready to chop.

And the chops were they in or out the radii of the 2 cities?
All in the radii of the capital.

Anyway your analisys, put me towards the worker first, a lot of beakers still increased by the
earlier academy.
Yeah, I think I'm leaning that way too.

I somewhat challenge your results from Test 1.

I have a city founded on turn 41 (I settled in the nw corner with the two fish).
At the start of turn 42, I have:

49 hammers into placeholder barracks.
256 beakers into Iron Working.

I don't claim this is enough to make a difference. But I'm not sure I've optimized yet, either.
We probably worked slightly different tiles at some point. For reference, in test 1 I think I worked:

Size 1 - Fish
Size 2 - Fish + PHF until second Fish hooked up, then 2 Fish
Size 3 - 2 Fish + Silk; whipped Worker at size 3 as soon as available (1 pop whip)
Size 2 - Worked 2 Fish again
Size 3 - 2 Fish + PHF (or Gold if it was hooked up)
Size 4 - 2 Fish + 1 Gold + 1 PHF or another Gold if it was hooked up (continued throughout build of Settler and to start of turn 42)

For those of you keeping count:
The difference between whipping and not whipping (both in the workboat next build option) is 1 turn on city2, 5 hammers and 15 beakers, in exchange for already being in slavery.
Personally I actually wouldn't use Slavery at all during the first 50 turns (maybe more) with a start like this. There's just too many good tiles we need to work, both at the capital and at the second city site.

I got 330 beakers, 12 hammers into the workboat (also founding turn 39 - are we picking different second city sites?), same 51 hammers on the granary.
I'm picking the NW corner of the island for the second city. PH underneath the city = 2 hammers + work a PHF for an additional 3 hammers = 5 hammers per turn, for three turns = 15 hammers. Not sure how you get 12. Difference in beakers may be a choice of overflow tech after Iron Working... be careful to select one with only one prerequisite (I chose Sailing) so it doesn't multiply the beakers and confuse our two comparisons. Really I should have used Metal Casting in the tests, since it takes much longer to research and thus is better for comparisons.

so currently this is 2 extra forests to chop and 4 turns on exploration in exchange for 74 beakers and about 5 hammers on city#2; we are already in slavery (so we will lose a future turn unless we never switch to slavery, but this turn may not be a pivotal early turn).

I stand by my opinion of WB-WB-Worker(whip)
Heh, when you put it like that, I think I prefer the reverse: Worker -> WB. I think the huge amount of extra beakers outweighs the slightly smaller total hammer output (and that only starts to show once we get to the end of our forests in the 3rd ring, which will not be for some time). Personally I much prefer having a big leg-up in beakers to saving forests. Actually, in my opinion forests should be chopped as soon as possible anyway, so I don't see this as a disadvantage really.

Were the last ones for this turn, could we make a descision in a few hours? I don't want to hear the other teams whining about us taking our turn.
They can wait. This is the one turn where we need to be careful. After this, we have a plan and can make turns fairly quickly. You shouldn't feel pressured by a few of the more vocal members on the forum to hurry a decision and possibly risk making a mistake as a result. Just ignore them. It's not as if we're doing this every turn. ;)

I just posted to let the other teams know we'll be a little while longer in finishing our turn. Only 16 hours have elapsed on the pitboss timer out of 40, there's no need for an urgent rush just yet. Though we'll need to come to a consensus on the "Worker next" or "WB next" decision within the next 24 hours at the most.

Yeah, that occurred to me as well. We don't need Bronze until we're ready to chop.

Does Mining > BW > Wheel vs. Mining > Wheel > BW matter if we aren't ready to chop until after the 3rd tech is researched? I think it does for one (possibly) important reason: going BW first opens up the option of chopping/whipping earlier. Even if we don't plan on using the whip, I think it's good to open that option up as early as is reasonable, in case something unforeseen occurs. Since the Worker will likely be mining gold during this research time frame anyways, I don't see the advantage of being able to build roads earlier.

Heh, when you put it like that, I think I prefer the reverse: Worker -> WB. I think the huge amount of extra beakers outweighs the slightly smaller total hammer output (and that only starts to show once we get to the end of our forests in the 3rd ring, which will not be for some time). Personally I much prefer having a big leg-up in beakers to saving forests. Actually, in my opinion forests should be chopped as soon as possible, so I don't see this as a disadvantage really.

I second this. If we are not pursuing a wonder-based strategy we should use available forests to boost early production, and the extra beakers will play to our research strength (Financial + Gold).

They can wait. This is the one turn where we need to be careful. After this, we have a plan and can make turns fairly quickly. You shouldn't feel pressured by a few of the more vocal members on the forum to hurry a decision and possibly risk making a mistake as a result. Just ignore them. It's not as if we're doing this every turn. ;)

Also agreed. We need to focus on making the correct decisions, not the game clock. Besides, we aren't doing this every move.

Does Mining > BW > Wheel vs. Mining > Wheel > BW matter if we aren't ready to chop until after the 3rd tech is researched? I think it does for one (possibly) important reason: going BW first opens up the option of chopping/whipping earlier. Even if we don't plan on using the whip, I think it's good to open that option up as early as is reasonable, in case something unforeseen occurs. Since the Worker will likely be mining gold during this research time frame anyways, I don't see the advantage of being able to build roads earlier.
I'll have to double-check, but researching The Wheel first might have allowed 1 turn of a pre-built road instead of 1 turn of a pre-built farm while we're moving between the Golds. Prebuilt road > prebuilt farm for the capital, because we'll want to cottage those tiles, so prebuilding a farm will be a waste. Still, it's a very minor advantage. And if we happen to have Copper in the fat cross, it'd be worth revealing it early (not that that seems likely, but who knows). Also, I'll have to double check whether Wheel -> BW would mean we'd be any turns behind for starting our forest chops. If it delays our chops at all to go Wheel -> BW, we should definitely go BW first.

If our Mathaletes have been correct in their anaylsis and a worker means more beakers then I'll go for the beakers. Because then we can work a Gold and a Fish tile, we will need Wheel to connect the gold to our city and increase our Happy cap.

But we don't need to increase our happy cap until we're at least size 5 (with no Warrior), or size 6 (with a Warrior). So building the roads to the Gold can wait. Those 4 Worker turns it would take to build the road would be better spent on chopping an extra forest earlier (to get the Settler and Library out quicker). Once we get close to size 5 or 6, we can then move to road up the Gold. :)

Yeah and I am noting the second fish tile would only have one commerce on it, as opposed to the 8 we'd get from the gold mine plus the hammers. Damn now I'm for the worker--> WB lol.

Yeah and I am noting the second fish tile would only have one commerce on it, as opposed to the 8 we'd get from the gold mine plus the hammers. Damn now I'm for the worker--> WB lol.
Heh... yep, that's why Worker -> WB nets more than 50 extra beakers. ;)

Let me try to keep track of the votes so far. If you want to change your vote, just say so. :)

WB -> Worker (1 confirmed, 6 unconfirmed): dima42, pindicator?, azzaman333?, champinoman?, grant2004?, BLubmuz?, Irgy?

Worker -> WB (5 confirmed): Lord Parkin, Trystero, AlphaShard, Methos, fed1943

Those with question marks haven't responded in the last day or so, so should confirm (or switch) after reading through the latest posts.

There seems to be some conflicting results here. For the record, my original working was wrong as I was growing to pop 2 on 20 food not 22. This will affect all paths, but will probably affect them differently. However dima42's well documented results however do seem to confirm that the difference is still basically 30-odd food/hammers for 30-odd beakers.

I still think hammers are the bottleneck in our empire, all the more so because we have so much commerce. At the current rate, we're going to be considering whether to research alphabet before we've even met another team, because we have beakers galore while barely being able to spare the hammers to squeeze out a single workboat to explore with.

On the issue of revolting to slavery, there are exactly two reasons for delaying (or early) revolting:
* Unit movement. In other words, choosing a turn that you're waiting on a worker action or a settler to arrive.
* Waiting until hereditary rule (or organised religeon) to switch to two at once. I'm fairly convinced we'll get at least a turn's worth of benefit out of being able to whip before HR arrives, because we have bucketloads of food, but that depends on a lot of things.

A lot of people have been talking about "critical early turns", but this is a misleading way of thinking about it. Sure a few hammers (or beakers etc.) on an early turn is worth more than a few hammers later, but by the same measure empire-wide anarchy loses a lot more hammers later than earlier. It could be quite complicated to work out the difference it makes, except it isn't if you look at it from a different perspective.

That perspective being that an early revolt is almost identical to a later revolt, except for one turn of unit movement.

To me, unit movement means revolting earlier if anything. Faster settler arrival helps more earlier than later. Very early worker turns are likely to be a bottleneck, while soon after we should be building enough workers that we're never working an unimproved tile waiting for a worker to get to it.

That said, the workboat->workboat->whip worker plan specifically needs to revolt at a time when we have no units to move, so it does indeed lose out a little there.

ok, I've run some more test games and I think I like the worker first build. The difference only seems to be the lost turn in revolt to slavery that makes the difference. But considering we want to be at 6 pop in the cap for a while then we really don't need slavery other than that initial whip.

However my tests so far haven't been able to replicate your numbers as the cap in my test on turn 42 is still 2 turns away from pop5. In addition I have slightly less hammers into the build and less beakers. However, even with these lower numbers the worker build seems better than the WB build.

EDIT: Found the difference. I only chopped 3 forests to get to almost the same point. Can probably save the 4th for a little. If we are not chasing wonders then the forests will be handy for the next worker.

PS I'm still for Workboat next if that's not clear :)

I won't cry if it's worker next though, I do think there's pros and cons and not a huge difference. For all that I'm busily arguing one way all the time.

I wasn't aware that units stopped taking orders and moving if your in revolt. I think it's more a cost of the city it's self not building and us not teching for a turn.

Oh and Irgy we have lots of hills on our northern coast line that can be our production line. The NE and NW cities should have quite alot of hammers provided they have enough food to feed them.

Workers do continue to move/build in revolt. This is the only difference between revolting early or later. I believe Irgy's point was that revolting while taking advantage of a workers movement or settlers movement will allow the improvement or city to effectively be founded 1 turn earlier (in terms of development not game turn).

I don't know why I didn't think of this initially, but I have removed the micro plan document I put up under my own google account and instead uploaded a copy under the sirius.mtdg account. I won't put it as an external link; it will be secure by letting anyone in our team view it by simply logging in to the team google account.

Edit: I'm going to have to look over the turn-to-turn details of worker -> wb before making a commitment either way. But first i'm going on a run while it's still sunny and warm!

One thought - people conducting tests should ensure they have all the correct settings for doing so. If you are not on a STANDARD size map and MONARCH difficulty level, your tech costs (and consequently beaker counts) will not be correct. ;)

Workers do continue to move/build in revolt. This is the only difference between revolting early or later. I believe Irgy's point was that revolting while taking advantage of a workers movement or settlers movement will allow the improvement or city to effectively be founded 1 turn earlier (in terms of development not game turn).
Right, but at the point at which we're debating switching to Slavery, we would have no Workers and no Settlers, and thus it would literally be a completely lost turn. Not to mention the fact that even if we switch to Slavery, we're only planning ONE potential whip - and won't have any more because we need to grow to size 6 ASAP to get the 2 Scientists. Going into a turn of anarchy just for the sake of doing a single 1-pop (inefficient) whip and nothing else for dozens of turns just doesn't seem sensible. Once again, I am highly in favour of ditching Slavery until much later (probably after turn 50). With our crack research rate, we should be at Monarchy (probably) or Monotheism (less likely) before too long even if we focus on other techs, so we can then do a much more efficient double civic switch later.

I don't know why I didn't think of this initially, but I have removed the micro plan document I put up under my own google account and instead uploaded a copy under the sirius.mtdg account. I won't put it as an external link; it will be secure by letting anyone in our team view it by simply logging in to the team google account.
Good idea. :)

Edit: I'm going to have to look over the turn-to-turn details of worker -> wb before making a commitment either way. But first i'm going on a run while it's still sunny and warm!
Heh, fair enough. ;)

There seems to be some conflicting results here. For the record, my original working was wrong as I was growing to pop 2 on 20 food not 22. This will affect all paths, but will probably affect them differently. However dima42's well documented results however do seem to confirm that the difference is still basically 30-odd food/hammers for 30-odd beakers.


The difference is the raw commerce vs. beakers. Also in the spreadsheet (all credit here goes to pindicator for the format), Worker->WB has 738-686 = 52 extra commerce.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the forests are 30 hammers each after math. So it's really 55 hammers for 72 beakers. If we revolt to slavery, it will become 70+ hammers for less than 40 beakers. If we go this route, I certainly think we should not revolt to slavery before HR.

Also, I likewise do not think it's a big deal if we go worker next. My reasoning for the workboat is identical to Irgy's, but I don't think it's a clear cut case by any means. In fact, because I don't like revolting to slavery before HR here, I think it's an even less clear case.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the forests are 30 hammers each after math.
Good point. So on the one hand having more forests might allow more higher hammer chops in the WB -> Worker scenario. On the other hand, in the Worker -> WB scenario, Maths will be reached earlier, so the chopping bonus will apply earlier. My guess is this means that the WB -> Worker scenario will chop 2-3 forests before Maths, and the Worker -> WB scenario will chop about 3 forests before Maths. So they should be similar; but we should test it.

Actually, on that note, that's quite a good argument for heading for Maths straight after Writing, regardless of our build queue. But I digress. ;)

1 thing that I was unsure about in my test game is what the tech path will be after what we have discussed. Currently:

Mining -> BW -> Wheel -> Pot -> Writing -> Sailing

What is our next goal after that?

And did anyone have any comments regarding getting AH after the wheel? In my test game (albeit WB WB whipWorker) it turned out only delaying the library 2 turns. Does someone want to run a simulation of it with the new proposed start? Just so we cover all the bases.

I guess the AH debate will begin if we find no copper on our island.

Not sure we need Sailing immediately after Writing. I don't know if we'll be able to get trade routes with the other islands assuming they also have the "ocean-strip" thing. And we'll probably want to fill out at least one more spot on our island before building a Galley. But that's just a feeling.

LP I like the double Civic switch but I was wondering if we should just go for Caste System? Do we need the Mystisim line to get CoL? Philosopy?

I like the idea of Math after Writing to make our chops more effective.

Sailing eliminates the need for roads between the cities at the start. It also opens up our first trade route between the 2 cities?

Its like a 2 turn tech and has some decent benefits.

Math is also a good idea for the extra hammers from the chops. This is what I have researched in my test games but I didn't have some sort of goal after that in mind.