View Full Version : Dune Wars Strategy Discussion


Deliverator
May 04, 2010, 11:41 AM
This thread is for discussing Dune Wars strategies.

Syagrius
May 04, 2010, 11:51 AM
Well, I was wondering about specialists. So far I am using only technicians and merchants (I rarely use scientists since I am not using them that much in Civ), I was wondering if not using noblemans as I am doing now is a good thing?

Jester Fool
May 04, 2010, 12:04 PM
Yes, I have 'no technology brokering' set. I also like using the 'tech diffusion' option as well.

Ahriman
May 04, 2010, 12:52 PM
Well, I was wondering about specialists. So far I am using only technicians and merchants (I rarely use scientists since I am not using them that much in Civ),

In general this is a good strategy; you can keep your science slider high and run an economy on spice, and use merchants to pay your gold upkeep.

I was wondering if not using noblemans as I am doing now is a good thing?
Noblemen are, like artists in vanilla, only necessary in a few cases.

It is easier to do cultural warfare here than in vanilla though, because of lower culture requirements for the 4th, 5th, 6th etc. city rings, if you use Imperial religion and nobles in the right places you can get some cities to flip, particularly if you're also Political trait.

Culture bombs are pretty powerful too if you have nearby enemies; I'd say great noblemen are better than great merchants.

Syagrius
May 04, 2010, 01:25 PM
In general this is a good strategy; you can keep your science slider high and run an economy on spice, and use merchants to pay your gold upkeep.


Noblemen are, like artists in vanilla, only necessary in a few cases.

It is easier to do cultural warfare here than in vanilla though, because of lower culture requirements for the 4th, 5th, 6th etc. city rings, if you use Imperial religion and nobles in the right places you can get some cities to flip, particularly if you're also Political trait.

Culture bombs are pretty powerful too if you have nearby enemies; I'd say great noblemen are better than great merchants.

Ah ok I get it now, nobleman are artists, great. Most of time I am playing with city flipping off, so I gess they are not going to be that usefull for me, unless in very localized circumstences. Thanks!

dammitbiscuit
May 04, 2010, 01:29 PM
Ah ok I get it now, nobleman are artists, great. Most of time I am playing with city flipping off, so I gess they are not going to be that usefull for me, unless in very localized circumstences. Thanks!

Wow, really? City flipping (domination) and massive cities (culture) are how I've won every game that I've bothered to play all the way through. I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I wasn't snuggling up near enemy cities and eating them! XD

Syagrius
May 04, 2010, 01:36 PM
Wow, really? City flipping (domination) and massive cities (culture) are how I've won every game that I've bothered to play all the way through. I wouldn't know what to do with myself if I wasn't snuggling up near enemy cities and eating them! XD

That is a different style of play; with mine city flipping is usually against me! I'd rather get a Domination or Conquest victory trough military might. However playing a more "peaceful" game is something I could try one day :)

2nd_renaissance
May 05, 2010, 07:42 AM
I wonder what's the Ai's attitude to war with each other,not against hunman only...

I select "aggressive AI" option, but it seems quite a peace during the whole time until seeking era..it is emperor level , 6 AI

Is this designed for some reasons?...

Ahriman
May 05, 2010, 11:07 AM
I wonder what's the Ai's attitude to war with each other,not against hunman only...

There is no real difference between AI's attitude to warring with each other or vs the human player.

I don't know exactly what aggressive AI does, my feeling is it just boosts the AI willingness to invade. But if you're on a low difficulty level where you're significantly ahead of the AI in military power, its not going to suicidally invade you no matter how aggressive it is.

On higher difficulty levels, I find the AI pretty aggressive.

darkedone02
May 12, 2010, 12:24 AM
After playing the mammoth and nearly researching almost everything, and playing as liet-kyne as the freman, I find this game a bit boring because nobody was starting wars, even after they all got about 4-5 cities, none of them do not start wars, I've even place each leader out there with a religion, and they still don't start wars. I even have my aggressive leader option turned on... the Ai need's improvement and need to start wars with one another... like a 25 or 45% chance that they will start a war on one of their worst enemies out there, and 65% when they are furious. I was even terraforming almost everything out there too and none of them started wars on me. I also see terraforming need more things but that might be a bit not-on-the-book/movie thing.

Ahriman
May 12, 2010, 05:59 AM
The AI is not going to attack you when you're massively more powerful than they are. They're not suicidal.

If you want to the AI to attack, crank up the difficulty level to the point where they can actually compete with you for power.

The AIs will start wars with each other if they aren't the same religion.

I cannot replicate your findings, when I play at a difficulty level that is actually challenging (normally Emperor/Immortal).

2nd_renaissance
May 17, 2010, 08:04 AM
It's so difficult on deity , the extra settler gives AI too much advantage..

I can be advanced on immortal , but on deity I was far behind techs...:(

anyone shares deity experience?

Jester Fool
May 17, 2010, 10:36 AM
It's so difficult on deity <snip> I can be advanced on immortal , but on deity I was far behind techsMy results too (although on immortal it still takes some good breaks and just plain luck to lead in tech). On deity, I am lucky if I am not more than five techs behind (and still waiting for tech diffusion to give me some free tech:(). I wonder if always playing on raging barbarians has something to do with it...:lol:
P.S. It would be really cool if you could upload some screenshots on the screenshot thread (you know, show us what you got). I seem to be monopolizing that thread recently.

Ahriman
May 17, 2010, 11:06 AM
Havent' tried deity. Yeah, the extra settler will be a huge advantage. Which is as it should be; the highest difficulty level *should* be unreasonably hard.

Raging barbarians tends to hurt the AI more than the player, and tech diffusion advantages the player too. I would recommend play with neither on in general.

2nd_renaissance
May 17, 2010, 11:37 AM
There is no Great Wall in this mod , how should player take this advantage of Raging barbarians?

By the way, How is tech diffusion working , how many techs does the player have to be behind so that free tech is available?..

PS:Jester Fool , I would rather show screenshots of SG game ,not failed game.. :(

Jester Fool
May 17, 2010, 12:53 PM
Raging barbarians tends to hurt the AI more than the playerI disagree. On deity level, the player starts with 2 soldiers and a settler (Alia). One AI starts out with 4 soldiers, 1 worker, and 2 settlers (Ecaz). The AI has double the power of the human player, and will be able to produce military units much faster due to the free worker and having twice the initial cities. By the time the barbarians show up, the AI has a surplus of military units. The human player, on the other hand, does not unless you only build military units (which means you don't build a worker and don't build a settler). The actual effects in game are that the AIs end up with a bunch of heavily promoted units running around, while the human player is stuck fending off the hordes with a much smaller military. One game, first contact with the BG came when a soldier promoted to level 4 reached my cultural borders.:eek: My scores are significantly higher playing with normal barbarian activity (which is why I choose raging barbarians instead).and tech diffusion advantages the player too.Quite correct, although the actual result is pretty close to negligible. It won't save the human player from being conquered by the superior military tech the AIs will employ.:lol: On levels lower that deity, I normally lead in tech (or a little behind) and tech diffusion has no effect on me whatsoever. I assume it does help any AIs that are far behind in tech though (which is why I like this option).

Ahriman
May 17, 2010, 02:57 PM
There is no Great Wall in this mod , how should player take this advantage of Raging barbarians?
By attacking and killing the barbarians, and by settling your island to cut off any spawn for them (or have outlying scout units; they can only spawn in fog of war).

I disagree. On deity level, the player starts with 2 soldiers and a settler (Alia). One AI starts out with 4 soldiers, 1 worker, and 2 settlers (Ecaz).
The couple of extra units the AI gets in no way make up the for the fact that it is *much* dumber than the human player at dealing with barbarians. It attacks the barbs even when they're on a mesa tile, rather than forcing the barb to attack them. It doesn't know to focus on improved shields promotions. It doesn't know how to effectively utilize hometerrain movement advantage. It doesn't know how to harass with thopters, quads, crysknife fighters and the like. It doesn't know to attack incoming barbarians before they get near the city (AI only defends its cities and BFCs). It doesn't do a good job of utilizing medic promotions. It doesn't set up a situation where it can use infantry to attack the barbs, then move back a tile to safety. It doesn't do a great job of defending its cities vs barbarian invaders. It doesn't prioritize its defenses near points where the barbs will come in from, or utilize choke-points well. etc.

In general, human player has massively better efficiency against barbarians than does the AI.

IMO :-)

However, like I said I haven't played deity. AI on highest difficulty levels might even get an advantage against barbarians?
But I think by and large the AI gets huge advantages from deity, but suffers from raging barbarians.

Jester Fool
May 17, 2010, 08:48 PM
The couple of extra units the AI gets in no way make up the for the fact that it is *much* dumber than the human player at dealing with barbarians.It is not only that. The extra city and free worker contribute heavily. The AI doesn't have to be smart. Brute force works. I see no ill effect on the AIs from raging barbarians BUT I definitely suffer. I just don't have the production necessary to defend against them AND keep expanding my empire while keeping pace with the AIs. This is excluding health concerns I might add. However, like I said I haven't played deity. AI on highest difficulty levels might even get an advantage against barbarians?
But I think by and large the AI gets huge advantages from deity, but suffers from raging barbarians.I don't want to argue (just a phrase of speech:mischief:) but I am directly relating my experience playing on diety (with and without raging barbarians). I am wrong all the time but in this case I am not. If your experience on diety differs from mine then maybe I'll have to admit that my strategy is at fault. I have enjoyed the discussion :) but I choose not to start a 'flame war' over it. We'll just have to agree to disagree. BTW, I'd like to see what you got too (i.e. post some screenshots). It's not fair that I'm monopolizing the screenshot thread. :p Anyway, I need to get back to playing the Dune Wars mod...:goodjob:

2nd_renaissance
May 26, 2010, 08:27 AM
I found a way to neutralize Ai's extra settler on deity , that is ----------------------------------

use advance start option~~~

AI is very stupid to decide how to allocate the points ,but human can do this , so with advance start AI get one city but human gets two ...aha...

under this circonstance and with lots of save/load I passed deity ....

still needs a solution with normal start~~

Ahriman
May 26, 2010, 02:30 PM
This mod isn't designed for Advanced Start.

I think your best chance for Deity is probably to try to adopt whatever religion spreads widely, and go Arrakis Spice, and try to avoid getting dogpiled. Pick on the unpopular people, like the Tleilaxu, members of minority religions or Atreides/Fremen once they go Arrakis Paradise.

You'll be way behind on tech, but as long as you focus on the improvement yield boosters and a narrow line of tier2 combat (I'd probably try to get missile troopers and then dragonfly bombers) you should be ok, and then just exploit air superiority and bomber use to serious soften up any incoming armies and any invasions.

Pillage-choking AI factions (focusing especially on water improvements and on harvesters especially anything outside the BFC of cities) will also hurt them significantly.

Jester Fool
May 26, 2010, 03:01 PM
and go Arrakis SpiceAbsolutely. On deity, Arrakis Paradise is near suicidal for the human player.:lol:

Little Faith
Jun 11, 2010, 03:51 AM
Has it ever occurred to anyone that the Bene Tleilax are complete and utter REX-monsters?

I mean, we got insta-religion in our cities. A palace that generate Great Prophet Points and a choice between a philosophical or an industrious leader to keep those prophets coming. You can pay for your entire expansion phase by getting your shrine super-early and hoarding prophets in your capital. You are not even in a rush to get tribunals up and running.

Ahriman
Jun 11, 2010, 02:04 PM
Rapid expansion is favored for all civs. I'm not sure Tleilaxu are particularly better at it. The +1 shrine gold from an extra city is pretty small in the big scheme of things.

Yes, settling prophets (I wish we could make them Tleilaxu Masters) is the intended strategy for Tleilaxu, and yes this gold can give a nice gold boost.

But they need it, because they'll have a lot of difficult getting anyone to trade techs or resources with them, and they're much more likely to be dogpiled.

I would consider removing the Philosophical trait though and finding a substitute, but then the Industrious guy would be a no-brainer.

The free GPP from the palace was really needed in order to help the AI get the shrine early, and actually start building a priest economy.

Any particular suggested changes, or ways we could weaken them in human hands without penalizing the AI?
AI Tleilaxu feel about right, its human Tleilaxu whose economy that can be problematic.

Little Faith
Jun 13, 2010, 05:23 PM
I see your point.

There's a lot a player can do to mitigate the Tleilaxu pariah status, such as never adopting the state religion or ridiculous gambits such as founding a sacrificial city specifically for gifting and "buttering up" the opponent with lopsided trades and whatnot.


BTW, could it somehow be possible to create a specialist/great person pair specific for Bene Tleilax? Make the buildings necessary to assign them unique for the Tleilaxu?

Ahriman
Jun 13, 2010, 07:49 PM
such as never adopting the state religion

We're attempting to require as many of the Tleilaxu features as possible require the state religion.

Probably we should add this to every Tleilaxu UU and UB, to discourage this (human player) exploit.

such as founding a sacrificial city specifically for gifting and "buttering up" the opponent with lopsided trades and whatnot
It has been a while since I looked at this so I may well be wrong, but IIRC there is a fairly low low cap on the diplomatic bonus you can get from gifting cities (as opposed to liberating cities - which requires cultural influence of the other player).

BTW, could it somehow be possible to create a specialist/great person pair specific for Bene Tleilax?
I don't know, it might be.

But then, all the various religious buildings (like the stone of prophecy) wouldn't produced GPPs of the Tleilaxu specialist type.

Or we could convert priests to Masters and remove priest slots from all other wonders and buildings and civics, but then priests would be messed up for other civs (and we still want priests and prophets I think for founding Shai-hulad, qizarate and Mahdi shrines).

The only way it would work well is if all GPPs were somehow "converted" into Tleilaxu Master gpps when in the hands of a Tleilaxu player.

But that would be a major technical change.