Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
Guys, despite what a number of books say, Manstein is not a "Von", he was NEVER part of German nobility, his family was not even of a military tradition.

The "Von" was added because it was assumed that a high ranking general officer of his ability must come from a long tradition, be it isn't so, no "von" for him!
Actually, Erich von Manstein isnt his real name at all. He changed it.

Anyone know what his birth name was?

Regardless, the man was a brilliant field commander and strategist. Too bad his boss was a fruit-cake.

Originally posted by joespaniel

Actually, Erich von Manstein isnt his real name at all. He changed it.

Anyone know what his birth name was?

Regardless, the man was a brilliant field commander and strategist. Too bad his boss was a fruit-cake.
Well, the historiography learned of him as Erich von Manstein, I cannot find any resoucre that states that his name was different than that.

Originally posted by joespaniel

Anyone know what his birth name was?


Despite the name of Lewenski, he was never caught under Clintons desk.

IIRC bith his father Lewenski and His uncle/adoptive father Manstein were minor prussian nobility/junker entitled to "von"

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
Despite the name of Lewenski, he was never caught under Clintons desk.

IIRC bith his father Lewenski and His uncle/adoptive father Manstein were minor prussian nobility/junker entitled to "von"
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/xredlightsmiley.gif We have a winner! http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/xredlightsmiley.gif

Lefty Scaevola gets an all expense paid trip to sunny Kharkov, Russia. :cool:
Congratulations! :D

Sorry Lefty, but ADOPTED children aern't so entitilled, only the KAISER could give Manstien a "Von", and ol Wilhelm NEVER did. ;)

So he was a poser.

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
Sorry Lefty, but ADOPTED children aern't so entitilled, only the KAISER could give Manstien a "Von", and ol Wilhelm NEVER did. ;)

He is entitled to a von, but only with Lewisnki (note looked up the spelling) not Manstein. It is not even clear that he formally/legally changed his name to Manstein, although his son also used that name, and not Lewinski. He may, in fact, have only been legally adopted by Mrs Manstein, his mother's sister, and not also by Uncle Georg. The British in his warcrimes inditements give his name as Fritz Erich von Lewinski von Manstein.

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
Sorry Lefty, but ADOPTED children aern't so entitilled, only the KAISER could give Manstien a "Von", and ol Wilhelm NEVER did. ;)
Where do you have that information from, I always thought he was the son of General von Lewinsky who was then adopted by Georg von Manstein, both part of Prussian nobility.

Somebody must be having fun with the split thread function.

I am reasonably sure I did not start this thread, but after years of immersing my liver in Jack Daniels, I cannot be certain.

I had alot of Jack Daniels as well, at least during the last weeks, but I'm pretty sure that this thread didn't exist when I posted. :crazyeye:

I looked it up at a few sources and came up with the following:

In 'Stalingrad', Anthony Beevor refers to him as 'Erich von Manstein'.

The Achtung Panzer! (http://www.achtungpanzer.com/gen8.htm) webpage refers to him both as 'Erich von Manstein' and 'Erich von Lewinski'.

Feldgrau (http://www.feldgrau.com/search-officers2.php?ID=1188) refers to him as 'Erich von Lewinski genannt von Manstein'. Which translates as 'Erich von Lewinski called von Manstein'.

His memoirs 'Verlorene Siege' ('Lost Victories') is written and sold under 'Erich von Manstein' at Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0891411305/qid=1037362957/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-2500651-7691905?v=glance&s=books).

I think I'll stick with von Manstein. :)

Briliant timing by the Discovery Channel - an hour long profile of VON Manstein was on last night, featuring members of his family (direct decendants, that is) who ALL called themselves VON Manstein.

However, all his "colleagues" in the Wehrmacht described him as simply "Manstein".

I guess this one will rumble on still :D

I'll stick with my original statement, the Hohenzollerns DID NOT recognize him, so he cannot be considered to be enobled.

Just becuase a mistake has been repeatedly perpetrated is NO REASON to keep doing it.

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
I'll stick with my original statement, the Hohenzollerns DID NOT recognize him, so he cannot be considered to be enobled.

Just becuase a mistake has been repeatedly perpetrated is NO REASON to keep doing it.
That's correct and as this happens alot in historical issues you may well be right.
But where did you get it from in the first place?

The first time I saw this was in interviews with senior German officers, the US army did a number of interviews that were declassified in the 1970s, the interviewer said "Von Manstein" and was corrected by several high ranking officers.

I also read this is a book and German nobilty in service of the army (and I can't remember the title, damn it! :mad: )

Since that time, the matter has been floated to several genologists, and Manstein is NOT listed as part of German nobilty in offical records.

it sucks when such mistakes are made, it has happened with more of such officers. The bad part is that he is called Von Manstein so often (as you see even on discovery) that people actually believe his name had 'von' in it. I didn't think of it, but now I realize I've read both names (with/without 'von') in different books as well, but not noticing it. Let me check if Mr. Ian Krenshaw had it right in his biography on Hitler.

Just a phrase out of topic

Lefty Scaevola gets an all expense paid trip to sunny Kharkov, Russia.

Kharkov is The UKRAINIAN city

Sorry Bifrost, you are correct.

Kharkov was the site of a brilliant counter-attack planned by Manstein, after the retreat from Stalingrad. Hence the joke.

Well, von or not, the guy was one of the best generals of the Second World War.

What is in a name? The controversial part of it is that Hitler didn´t take a liking towards him because he suspected that Manstein AKA Lewinski had "jewish blood" in him.

Originally posted by joespaniel
Well, von or not, the guy was one of the best generals of the Second World War.

History is written by the victors. I wonder if the fact that Manstein helped create the West-German Bundeswehr did not in fact endear him to the Western Powers.

Mansteins reputation relies on his planning of the German invasion of France. his genius is then measured on the victory over a seemingly equal if not superior opponent. This entirely forgets that the reason Germernay was so succesful in France was because of the better organisation, morale, and training of the German forces plus a whole array of technical weaponry discourse which i won´t indulge in.

How hard can it be to conquer Sevastopol if the whole of Europe´s artillery is concentrated around it. And he even had to use poison gas.

His relief action at Stalingrad was an utter disaster.

The withdrawal of the Caucasus forces was probably made possible by bad weather and inept Soviet planning.

The retaking of Kharkov is however an enigma.

In short, one stroke of brilliance does not a great general make.

The relief effort of Stalingrad was led by General Hoth, not Manstein, and was doomed to failure before it started, since Hitler refused Paulus' request to break out.

Manstein was indeed the architecht of plan yellow, as it was executed. It was revolutionary at the time, since so many others were still thinking of using infantry as the main force, like in Poland.

Another thing about his apparent non-existing nobility and Discovery Channel is that they insist on pronouncing it [von] and not [fon] as it should be with the special German "v" (fau, in German, IRRC)...


In Guido Knopp's biography of Manstein it says that he was born in 1887 in Berlin as the tenth child of the Lewinski family, which was an old Prussian officer's family. Mrs Lewinski and Mrs Manstein were sisters and it claims that he got the name Manstein. It also says that his actual name was "Erich von Lewinski genannt von Manstein", translated to "Erich of Lewinski called of Manstein" (as stated above by Panda).


About Manstein's brilliance, I don't think it can be doubted.
He planned the invasion of France, the "Sickelstroke", someting that remains brilliant. Though the Germans were superior, they had also been equally superior in 1914. If something new, innovative, and bold such as the "Sickelstroke" had not been done, it might just have stalled as it did then. We can't say how it would have ended then, but the fact remains that it was a huge success.
His command of the 56th armoured corps in Northern Russia in the beginning of Operation Barbarossa also displays the extremely capable mind of Manstein. He won several victories and even compensated for the sometimes irrational acts of the "armoured group" commander (Hoepner, I believe), and lack of results by the other army corps of the 4th Panzergruppe (armoured group).
He was later assigned the 11th Infantry Army in the south. He won great victories there too, and though the Sevastopol siege wasn't as impressive as some make it, he captured more than 4 300 000 Russian soldiers during the drive for the Crimea.
The Stalingrad relief action was disastrous, but if one reads more detailed info about it, it would be obvious that it was an impossible situation he had been put in. The Sixth Army and most of the 4th (?) Armoured Army (Hoth) was captured in the Kessel. He had to establish an enormous defence line with minimal forces, while Hitler pressured for attacking the Kessel, and his requests for Caucasian-stationed troops were refused. Hitler dreamt of conquering India with Manstein and the enclosed soldiers were convinced he would free them. The temperatures were low, reinforcements were sparse, there wasn't any fuel for the armour, and most of the southern troops were indisposed. Manstein gave it a shot, came up with a good plan and charged the Russians at an unexpected point, but seeing the massive Russian attack on the northern part of his front, he had to withdraw to avoid another encirclement. And even if he had penetrated the Kessel, his plan had relied on the disobedience of Paulus. Paulus couldn't get the permission from Hitler to evacuate the pocket, and if he had had the chance, it is doubtful whether he would have used it.
The withdrawal of the Caucasus forces was very late because of Hitler's stubbornness, and only the fact that Manstein stopped his relief assault on the Stalingrad pocket enabled the Germans to slow down the Russian offensive enough for the Germans to ecape.
The first time Manstein was allowed to use his flexible defensive tactics, the first time Hitler allowed him to operate as he wished, was when he did his "Backhand Blow". He retook Kharkov and cut off Zhukov's entire armoured spearhead. IIRC, 30 000 armoured and motorised troops were encircled in a time of desperate crisis in the German ranks. The Russians were advancing at an amazing speed, the Germans were virtually defeated, but Manstein saw the weakness of Zhukov's spearhead and destroyed it.
His later warfare was, as before Kharkov, restricted very much by Hitler and Manstein warned about the Kursk failure before the attack.
One of his final acts of brilliance was his withdrawal of troops from the Tjerkassy pocket. Hitler also stubbornly refused to allow it there, but Manstein defied him and withdrew saving most of the 56 000 surrounded Germans.
In the spring of 1944 he won his last of the lost victories. He withdrew the first armoured army from a pocket, saving tens of thousands of Germans.
Short thereafter, Manstein was sacked by Hitler. Hitler had, since Sevastopol, used Manstein as a kind of "wonder-weapon", sending him to the areas of crisis constantly. One should understand that he had a very difficult task, and if you take that into account, his defence of the German positions on the southern front after Stalingrad must be said to be brilliant.

At one point, Manstein failed disastrously. He refused to actively resist Hitler. He was very weak politically, and thought more of the honour of the Prussian soldier than of much else.

As he said it, himself:
"Prussian field marshals don't commit mutiny!"

Thanks insurgent, a killer post.

insurgent: :goodjob: :goodjob:

Originally posted by Dr. Dr. Doktor
What is in a name? The controversial part of it is that Hitler didn´t take a liking towards him because he suspected that Manstein AKA Lewinski had "jewish blood" in him.


Eledgedly (according to Beevor) Manstein/Lewinski confessed in private conversations of beeing partially jewish.

Originally posted by joespaniel
Thanks insurgent, a killer post.

I was very tired, it was 1 or 2 AM, and I couldn't stop. I'm not in the habit of writing such long posts... :eek: :(

But you get my point, right? ;)

But I found another source claiming that Manstein's name really was "Fritz Erich von Lewinski".

About his "partial Judaism", I believe one of his grandparents (Lewinski's) was Jewish, but I can't find any confirmation...

Originally posted by insurgent
In Guido Knopp's biography of Manstein it says that he was born in 1887 in Berlin as the tenth child of the Lewinski family, which was an old Prussian officer's family. Mrs Lewinski and Mrs Manstein were sisters and it claims that he got the name Manstein. It also says that his actual name was "Erich von Lewinski genannt von Manstein", translated to "Erich of Lewinski called of Manstein" (as stated above by Panda).

That's what I thought as well. Other sources say the same.
However, if AoA's right they all may well have copied the wrong name from each other.

Of course this is not the most important issue in history. ;)

More important in my opinion is the career he was able to make after the war. It says alot about post-war West Germany...

Originally posted by Hitro
More important in my opinion is the career he was able to make after the war. It says alot about post-war West Germany...

What does it indicate to you then?

To me it just indicates that the Bundeswehr was in desperate need of competent surviving officers. They needed help from the old and recently defeated army's officer's corps to reorganise and build up again.
It also says a lot about the reputation of the "Manstein fellow", that he can be used afterwards despite the "de-nazification" and that he is considered competent enough...

Some more Manstein (http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/BARBAROS.HTML) related stuff.

"At the end of 1942, it is Germany that seems on the edge of collapse. The Wehrmarcht has by now lost half its strength. It is greatly outnumbered and, for the first time, faces soldiers as effective as its own. At this critical point, two men step forward to hold the Army together. Guderian is appointed by Hitler to the new post of Inspector General. He has wide ranging powers over manufacture and deployment of all Panzer forces. He doubles production and oversees development of the new Tiger and Panther tanks. In the field, Manstein manages to hold the Wehrmarcht together by taking desperate gambles and through sheer force of will."