I want to know who you think the "worst" enemy the US ever faced was.

You are free to define the criteria for "worst"- most evil, most likely to defeat us, most crucial for us to have beaten. I'd like feedback on that decision process as well as your choice in the thread.

Later on I will post the reasons for this, but they have to do with the teaching of history, the nature of popular memory, and plain curiosity. I'd prefer no "Joke" votes.

Germany and Italy, World War II, hands down...

mmmh........ir depends, the nation capable of totaly destroying america....USSR, country which survyed american armed forces.....vietnam,,,,,,,,,,,leader who came to the US, killed americans, went back to his country and was never captured by uncle's sams troops......well u tell me ;)

The Civil War was definitely the greatest threat to the United States. If the south had won, the country as we know it would have ceased to exist.

Other.

It's own govt. when it violates the Constitution, which has been getting worse the last 60+ years.

I voted for the Civil War. A tie or even a win by the Confederates would have meant a thoroughly different development of the US. I'm somewhat optimistic though that the North and South would have eventually merged again, either peacefully or through war. But that could have taken decades, with unforeseeable consequences for both America and the world.

No exterior threat minus the Soviet Union (and maybe the Brits in the 1700's) ever had a serious chance of bringing the fight to US territory. While there might have been a chance to defeat the US aboads, there was no chance of succesfully invading and subjugating the US.

To the Brits, as I see it, the original colonies weren't worth a long, costy campaign, especially with all the other troubles they had at hand.

The Soviet Union could have, of course, annihilated the US with their nuclear and biological weapons arsenal, but would have been wiped out in a US counter-attack. So it's wasn't a realistic threat.

Britain. Althought the most destructive war from an American point of view was King Philip's War.

I'm going to have to side with RMSharpe here. We got off easy in WWII by virtue of haven gotten involved as late as we did. The Civil War was the worst in terms of percentage of the population killed, of course. But if we'd been fighting Hitler as long as the Europeans, it would've been a blood-bath.
I'd forgotten about those little wars, MrPresident (King Philips, Queen Anne's & Jenkins' Ear). You never heard about them in a high school history class, and now that I understand how important they were, I wonder why. I guess education in the US really does suck.

the civil war and the independence war. The cold war could've been worse, but the enemy didn't fight america. In the independence and civil war America faught for its excistence.

The Axis nations in WWII.

I actually also voted with Sharpe on this one.

For inexcusable moral repugnance, nobody tops WW2 Germany. I have always had a sense that there would have been ways to live with most of our other enemies. If we hadn't fought Germany and they had been able to consolidate their gains and grow to "Europe size", get the atomic missile first, etc., well, those guys had a far worse plan for the world than I think most people can even imagine.

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
I actually also voted with Sharpe on this one.

For inexcusable moral repugnance, nobody tops WW2 Germany. I have always had a sense that there would have been ways to live with most of our other enemies. If we hadn't fought Germany and they had been able to consolidate their gains and grow to "Europe size", get the atomic missile first, etc., well, those guys had a far worse plan for the world than I think most people can even imagine.

you scare me

The Soviet Union. Both countries were on the brink of total annihilation - the United States never faced that immediate and indeed very inescapable danger posed by Germany or any other Axis power during World War II.

The Soviet Union has been the only country on this earth capable of destroying the United States; it had very matching military strenght , as well as the capabilities to strangle each other's economies. Germany never gained such momentum, neither did Japan or Italy.

The German campaign was like the Japanese in the Pacific, doomed from the beginning, they knew it was just a matter of time before the United States would be dragged into the war, imposing the cause of freedom on the shoulders of Hitler, who soon felt our anger, directly or indirectly. The German High Command knew it all too well, that's why they assiduously tried to keep us out.

Involved in the Third World War, we faced a foe willing and able to force the United States down on its knees, and vice versa. This was the struggle for the world, and we luckily came out as the victor. One of our finest hours.

Currently, Communist China will be able soon have that same power, maybe not to the same degree in terms of missiles (yet), but it won't be long; the size of their standing military is BIG.

I still stand by my answer above: our own govt.

Though, I would change it to the apathy of our citizens, both when it comes to the govt. thing as well as when it comes to treason.

The notion that two superpowers can live in peaceful harmony is therefore a ludicrous assumption. People will realize that, if the ChinComs continue stay in power for the next 20-30 years.

Probably won't, I should've assumed office by that time. :D

I doubt America will still be a superpower that far in the future. Apathy by its citizens; govt corruption by both parties, among other things is turning us into a has been second rate power.

Originally posted by willemvanoranje


you scare me

Why what?

I voted the Revolutionary War. With a Close second the Civil War.

WW2 was in a far away land and though it was a blood bath I think it was mostly a blood bath for Europe and Asia.

The cold war I think was a stalemate. I think both sides were too scared to use nukes.

Revoltuionary and Civil I think were the only ones really fought on the home front, and I think if Britain had put more devotion and care into the war they could have easily squashed the rebellion.

I do see the logic in choosing Civil/Revolutionary war, certainly key moments for the US.

The Cold War did indeed include the spectre of the elimination of all human life (something that hasn't changed at all while the missiles still stand in various countries) I too don't think the Soviets were about to cross the line and we sure weren't. Hitler will always be the scariest of the scary, who knows what he would have done.

Revolutionary War and the Civil war. Why? Because they were both fought on US soil. No other army has managed to do that.

Because they were both fought on US soil. No other army has managed to do that.
What about the Native Americans? And can I ask are we talking about wars involving the United States or wars involving the American colonies as well? Because if it is just the United States then we really shouldn't use the revolutionary war.

The worst enemy must be these fanatical terrorists.

The Soviet Union threatened the existence of the US most, the Axis killed more US soldiers than any other, but this phantom enemy, terrorism is definitely the worst. It kills thousands of people just to make others fear them, it destroys to destroy. No immediate purpose or gain, just destruction. It hides and can't be found till it strikes again. It's frightening, just look at it: The Israelis have been fighting it for 40 years, and yet they haven't defeated it.

other usa itself, in the end all the countries will start getting anoyed from that that usa get her nose to everywhere and will work togheter (palestine and israel togheter what a dream...) to make her a bit less powerfull, or even take her out for ever...

Originally posted by nixon
The notion that two superpowers can live in peaceful harmony is therefore a ludicrous assumption. People will realize that, if the ChinComs continue stay in power for the next 20-30 years.

Probably won't, I should've assumed office by that time. :D

The Chinese or any other nation will ever strike America. For that matter, no one will ever strike Russia or China either. Each just have way to many nukes.

I voted the Soviet Union, mostly because that entity also was a threat to my own existince for a while.

The Nazi regime were not that threatening as some would like to make them. In fact they were pretty stupid. For example they never thought of looking for resistance fighters in the insane asylums.

If the Nazis had won the War it follows from logic that victory would have been the result of the use of an atomic bomb fastened to a V-2 or possibly a V-3 rocket. Against which nation the bomb would have been used it is impossible to say, because the mental character of Hitler does not allow for logic. Of course it could be that he was only under severe mental stress and that the prospect of some magnifiscient succes on the battlefield would bring him relief and renew his mental capacity for clear and rationel decision-making.
If on the other hand Hitlers physical state was in severe crisis and he had died by natural courses, probably some time after the moment of his actual depature, then the question is who the succesor would have been.
It is important to understand that many Germans had a love affair with the concept of America. I don´t believe Goebbels would have liked to destroy America. He was, however, severely anti-Russian. Goering, the official replacement until moments before the final days of Hitler would probably very much have liked to bomb Britain to smithereens in order that he got recompense from past failures. The bombing of America would have been icing on the cake. He always was a greedy fellow. Himmler is a mystery. I do not think anyone really knows what motivated the man. A mass-murderer of Jews one day and a mystic leader of a an order of templarknights the next, his agents scouring Europe for religious artifacts. He would probably have liked to conquer America to medievalize it. Like Hitler he liked the idea of building big monuments. Which takes us to Speer - here was a man who understood America I think. His profile was that of the succesful entrepreneur in the tradition of Ford. His sharp mind would probably have made him the most difficult opponent, he was however a moral man, despite the fact that he knew he employed slave-workers, and would probably have found the destruction of America a questionable enterprise.

Had Hitler lived on to see the massive deployment of Inter-Continental Ballistic Missiles on both sides of the Atlantic the conflict would have settled down into an Orwillian world with three powers. It would be more unstable but not in a state of total war.

Originally posted by Dark Ascendant
Revolutionary War and the Civil war. Why? Because they were both fought on US soil. No other army has managed to do that.

Um, there was this little incident called the 1812 war, too. It was America's idea, but I should point out that targets hit in the Anglo-Canadian counterattacks included several American forts on the Great Lakes, Detroit (taken and held until 1813), Washington, and big chunks of upstate New York.

And Pearl Harbor, Dutch Harbor, the WTC and Pentagon are all kind of inside America, too. But then, I'm just being picky because that's my mood today. :p

R.III

Grenada- that could have turned nasty

As far as evil, it seems that Japan and the Nazis of ww2 were capable of the most heinous acts of brutality. But those Al Queda folks are also very bad. The fact that they arent based in one state makes them a very challenging enemy.

I voted other...mainly because, all the ones listed could be US citzens.

The Worst enemy the US ever fought is theirselfs.

WoW Xiahou-Dun how did you get a custom avatar with only 261 posts?

The Civil War, of course - the greatest enemy of all is yourself.

After 30 votes, Civil War is tied with Soviet Union in this poll.

Very interesting to me to see how this is turning out. I will wait awhile longer, I'd love to get 50 votes...

Grenada?... What? Bunch of militiamen in fishingboats invading the US?

On the list, the Civil War.

Not on the list, the internal economic problems during the great depresson. (What do you think those bonus soldiers were camping out in Washington for?)

When MacArthur was recalled and marched through Washington. Contemporary reporters say they expected him to turn towards the White House and that the crowd would have followed.-- On second thought, Truman would have personally kicked his behind all the way to Missouri.

Other-

Ourselves

Hmm, I don't see a George W. Bush option so I guess I'll have to vote for the Soviets :D.

The USSR in the 50's and 60's was the only time the US had hostile oppostion on a relatively equal footing to them military wise. Even in the US Civil War, the Union had an overwhelming advantage in man power an industral capacity that it was only ever a matter of time.

Originally posted by Dr. Dr. Doktor
Which takes us to Speer - here was a man who understood America I think. His profile was that of the succesful entrepreneur in the tradition of Ford. His sharp mind would probably have made him the most difficult opponent, he was however a moral man, despite the fact that he knew he employed slave-workers, and would probably have found the destruction of America a questionable enterprise.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions about that. The only evidence we have of this is Speer himself since all of his Nazi friends were killed. Unless of course you belive everything someone says just because they took an oath in a courtroom :rolleyes:.

Originally posted by cameramano
Grenada?... What? Bunch of militiamen in fishingboats invading the US?



it was a joke:rolleyes:

Originally posted by kring
I doubt America will still be a superpower that far in the future. Apathy by its citizens; govt corruption by both parties, among other things is turning us into a has been second rate power.

kring now you sounding like these other non-american yo-yo's who think it's chic or cool to knock or put someone down (anyone remember germany and jews in wwII)?

If we are a second rate has been power who the hell is number one?

If we are a second rate has been power who the hell is number one?
I'm glad you asked. Many people are under the mistaken impression that is and will always be a superpower. But that are wrong, so very wrong. Many years ago there was a secret invasion of America by the British SAS and they undertook a coup e'tat. No it wasn't the JFK assassination, it was the replacing of Gerald Ford with a Gerald Ford look-a-like. Since then we have been running America. Blair is not Bush's lapdog, it is the other way around. But soon, very soon, we shall rise up from the grave of history and once again reclaim the throne of Empire. It was be the biggest Empire the world has ever seen! It has be ten times greater than our previous Empire! We will accomplish the ambition of every powermonger, we shall rule the world! But then again I may be just a crazy fool with a dream, how are you to know? I hope that answered your question.

Originally posted by mordhiem


I wouldn't jump to conclusions about that. The only evidence we have of this is Speer himself since all of his Nazi friends were killed. Unless of course you belive everything someone says just because they took an oath in a courtroom :rolleyes:.



"I never saw [Hitler] so beside himself as he was near the end of the war when he worked himself ... into a delirium over his vision of the downfall of New York in a firestorm. He described skyscrapers being transformed into giant flaming torches, then crashing down into one another, with the imploded city reflected in the night sky. He told [us] to speed up development of a long-range bomber ... to take one-thousand-fold revenge on America for the destruction of our cities."

— ALBERT SPEER, 1947 prison diaries

This makes it fairly clear that Hitler had the intention of transforming America to burning rubble. I do not believe the intonation of this particular part of Speers narrative recollection betrays any affirmation of Hitlers view on the subject. Of course at this Point Speer was far removed from the world he once knew and in his diaries he might willfully have distance himself from Hitlers point of view.

According to Charles Peters of the Washington Monthly.
"... Albert Speer once said that Hitler "would never have considered invading Poland" without synthetic fuel technology provided by General Motors, that in 1938 a GM executive was given a medal for "distinguished service to the Reich," and that in 1939 GM Chairman Alfred P. Sloan described the company's German operations as "highly profitable"? I'm indebted to The Washington Post for these facts as well as this ultimate irony: After the war, GM collected $32 million from the U.S. government for the damage American bombers had inflicted on its plants in Germany."

This is clearly controversial so here is the source:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/tilting/1999/9901.tilting.html

In short Hitler and Speer (presumably) were indebted to American industry. Of course Hitler lost it, and quite literally so. Speer remained somewhat more focused at the end of the war. So if Speer had become Chancellor and Führer it is just possible that any nuclear strike against America would have been met by the nagging thought., "hey, these guys actually helped us to begin with." On the other hand, the logic of war dictates against moral scrouples. But would it have been a logical to bomb the United States? Considering the situation on the Eastern Front in the latter years of the war.

It is interesting that Albert Speer on one occasion acted as a middle-man between Hitler and the phycist and nobel laureate Werner Heisenberg, who eagerly wanted sufficient funds to build an atomic bomb. The program remained severly underfunded. Clearly Speer as Hitlers chief achitect and later Minister of Armaments would have had the political clout to divert sufficent resources had he really wanted to. On the other hand Speer might have dismissed the idea on grounds that no matter the amount of funds diverted the project was doomed. Speer later commented that, "with extreme concentration of all of our resources, we would have had a German atom bomb by 1947, but certainly we could not beat the Americans, whose bomb was ready by August 1945." As a side-note the (now somewhat discredited) historian David Irving claims that it was in fact Speer who "effectively put a damper on it."

So the contra-factual discussion on what would have happened if Germany had aquired the Atomic Bomb had Speer been in a position of total power must take into consideration that if Germany were to have aquired the Bomb, it would not in any insignificant way had been due to Speers decisions earlier in his carrer. Had Speer been hell-bent on getting the Bomb there would have been reason to believe that he would have used it.

Nice post, triple Doc. I of course love the General Motors was evil subtext.

In the meantime, for those who know the haiku thread in general forum, I would like to officially change my vote of worst enemy the US ever faced to...

Chairman Yang!!!

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
WoW Xiahou-Dun how did you get a custom avatar with only 261 posts?

At one time I had over 300...don't ask me where they went though.:crazyeye: (If you hadn't said anything, I wouldn't have noticed)

The Civil War. If the South had somehow survived the war, the map of North America would have ended up resembling Europe.

Originally posted by Xiahou-Dun


At one time I had over 300...don't ask me where they went though.:crazyeye: (If you hadn't said anything, I wouldn't have noticed)

I know they rolled back some posts from the role playing forum or something like that. Maybe that is what happened. Sorry about the lost posts!

I went with the Civil War. No one knows when or if Lincoln would have ever given in, but European pressure would have been considerable if they had managed a victory at Antietam or Gettysburg.

As far as nastiest and most barbaric, the Japanese easily outshone the Germans. The only way Germany would have been a threat to us is if they managed to create an Atomic Bomb before we did.

As for the Cold War, I believe that the US would have beaten the USSR in conventional warfare, but no one wins when everyone launches the nukes. Same with China, but until they have a bigger nuclear arsenal, they aren't a major threat. They simply aren't in the US's league as far as technology, training, and weaponry goes. The kill-to-casualty ratio would eclipse our considerable one in Vietnam. But that's just my projections.

Originally posted by Case
The Civil War. If the South had somehow survived the war, the map of North America would have ended up resembling Europe.

Yeah, but evil never lasts.
I think the states would just have become stronger republics.

Yeah, but evil never lasts.
Yes but new longer lasting evil lasts up to 25% longer.

And now comes in a refreshing minty flavor!

And now comes in a refreshing minty flavor!
Don't be ridiculous.

The Civil War represented the most important turning point in US history, many say US history began with it. However, the question was about the 'worst' enemy the US faced, and although the Soviets probably murdered more civilians than the Germans, the Nazi dogma was even more repugnant than that of the Stalinists. Also, Russia and China were at times our Allies against the Axis, which really makes you think about degrees of evilness.

I believe we should count ourselves lucky that when Hitler chose to attack Russia on June 22, 1941, that marked the beginning of the end of one of the most heinous threats this planets has ever laid ground to. Had he not attacked, and instead focused on us, a lot more would have been demanded from us. The fact that Russia is insurmountable is a hell of a miracle, but Hitler didn't know.

germany was the WORST, if not the largest threat the US has seen

I thinkt he wording is important. A DIRECT THREAT to the US? I would have to say the USSR. No other country in history had the potential to destroy the US like the Soviets had. But since it was a COLD war, I would have go with the Nazis.

The worst threat to the US was definitely the Civil War. If the south had won, or even gotten a draw, with England and France recognizing them as a real nation, the US would not be the same as it is today. The south probably would have fallen do to Red Rebellion.....who knows...?

BTW, how were the Nazis the biggest threat to us?

The worst threat to the US was definitely the Civil War. If the south had won, or even gotten a draw, with England and France recognizing them as a real nation, the US would not be the same as it is today. The south probably would have fallen do to Red Rebellion.....who knows...?

BTW, how were the Nazis the biggest threat to us?

The worst threat to the US was definitely the Civil War. If the south had won, or even gotten a draw, with England and France recognizing them as a real nation, the US would not be the same as it is today. The south probably would have fallen do to Red Rebellion.....who knows...?

BTW, how were the Nazis the biggest threat to us? First, in 1940, Hitler never would have made it across the Atlantic, secondly, he wouldn't have attacked us anyway. He only declared war on us because Japan did. If Pearl Harbor hadn't been attacked, then we probably wouldn't have entered the war until a while later, probably the summer of '42. Hitler should have gone for the Middle Eastern Oil Fields instead of the Soviet Union. With the oil fields secured, he could have supplied his army much longer, and the fields would have fallen in a few months. Stalin wasn't going to attack Hitler, so the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact would have sustained.

Originally posted by The Art of War
The worst threat to the US was definitely the Civil War. If the south had won, or even gotten a draw, with England and France recognizing them as a real nation, the US would not be the same as it is today. The south probably would have fallen do to Red Rebellion.....who knows...?

BTW, how were the Nazis the biggest threat to us? First, in 1940, Hitler never would have made it across the Atlantic, secondly, he wouldn't have attacked us anyway. He only declared war on us because Japan did. If Pearl Harbor hadn't been attacked, then we probably wouldn't have entered the war until a while later, probably the summer of '42. Hitler should have gone for the Middle Eastern Oil Fields instead of the Soviet Union. With the oil fields secured, he could have supplied his army much longer, and the fields would have fallen in a few months. Stalin wasn't going to attack Hitler, so the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact would have sustained.

were they a threat to us? yes, and i agree they havent been the biggest direct threat, but the poll says 'the worst' not the biggest threat.

worst, biggest. Tomato, tomato (pronounced TOW-MAH-TOW)

Originally posted by Sultan Bhargash
Nice post, triple Doc. I of course love the General Motors was evil subtext.

In the meantime, for those who know the haiku thread in general forum, I would like to officially change my vote of worst enemy the US ever faced to...

Chairman Yang!!!

Mwuhaahaahaaaaa :evil: ...you can run, but you cant hide, Bargash...

I would say that America itself is its greatest enemy, constantly lying to and decieving its own people, constantly murdering and harassing people in other countries, and constantly building its arsenal of destructive weapons, soon to be used on you since there will be no one else on earth left to bomb the sh*t out of.
Your greed and dollar-cult will surely see a way to profit even in this scenario, you steal and steal and steal and steal, but what will you do when theres nothing left to steal?

DISCLAIMER: I am neither liberal or conservative, but a dirty, rotten Comi-ba$tard...

Originally posted by The Art of War
Stalin wasn't going to attack Hitler, so the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact would have sustained.

This is actually not clear. The Soviet Union was at that time was becoming very militarized, and it's conceivable that Stalin was preparing a surprise attack on Germany. So it's possible that if Germany went on to conquer the Middle East, Stalin would've invaded Germany. The consequences of such a course of action are unclear.

I think it was Molotov's memoirs that said that Molotov was sure that Stalin, even though he was suspicious of everyone, and everything else, was not suspicious of Hitler, and believed that he would keep the Pact (Which he should have).

Originally posted by The Art of War
I think it was Molotov's memoirs that said that Molotov was sure that Stalin, even though he was suspicious of everyone, and everything else, was not suspicious of Hitler, and believed that he would keep the Pact (Which he should have).

From what I have learned Stalin would have been expecting the war almost ever since Hitler came to power earlier that decade. He started the clensing of the party to avoid someone trying to take his potition during a potentional war.

I see a lot of fooling around and trolling in this thread, as well as off topic things.

This forum is NOT FOR THAT.

It's meant to be a serious and adult forum.

If I see anymore, restrictions will follow.

Britain was America's greatest foe, if the Revolution had been lost, there would be NO America.

As this chart has grown, I have noticed the trend of Civil War and Soviet Union remaining near the top, with the Nazis catching up later after a strong initial surge.

I can't say I am surprised, though I expected a bigger showing for current events enemies like Al Qaeda, this [i]is[/is] the history forum.

What is misleading in that poll above is that I split out Germany and Japan from the Axis powers, so really WW2 enemies might get the overall nod, which would accord with the attention given that war in our national/world sense of history.

I have seen the Civil War also used to justify Lincoln as best president in an OT thread. Certainly it was the one time America faced CERTAIN destruction if the war was lost. Again I lumped both sides together because I didn't want the vote splitting along partisan lines.

The Soviet Union was certainly best armed of our opponent, and our 50 years of conflict with them was indeed our longest struggle.

I don't overlook those who like AoA who voted that that first war was the most important ever, either. I do think the Revolutionary war is fading from our sense of national history, from the time I was a youngster (at the Bicentennial) to an increasing focus on the Civil War in the 80s and 90s. It may be history's lens backing off and moving along or it may indicative of something more unpleasant... a trend in our nation's monuments/battle fields etc. to distance the founding fathers from the realities of their times.

I don't know, I just wanted to add something about the reasons I posted this poll. Thanks for posting on it everyone, and those to come.


Thanks everyone for participating in this poll.

Hmmmm, I would think the Civil War is a no-brainer. I had considered the Cold War, but ruled it out on the fact that one of the only ways to attack US/ Soviet soil was to use nukes, and no one would have actually used nukes because of MAD or mutually assured destruction.