Hi everyone. I checked with a moderator to make sure that I should post this in here, but inspired by Sisiutil and an attempt to get more involved in the community for the game that takes up so many hours of my spare time - I'm going to be posting a series of games similar to Sisiutil's great ALC series. I plan on getting Civ5 at launch and plan on continuing writing then, if it meets with a kind reception. I do not qualify myself as even a "good" Civ4 player, and like Sisiutil I will be starting my games on the Prince level.

Notable differences to hopefully give a different skew on things so I don't continually feel like I'm just treading a path where others have walked (I don't want to do that, I'm simply trying to help and fit in to boot!) - I am going to be pursuing the title of Elite Quattromaster, at least until Civ5 comes out when I'm sure there will be the same sort of fun with the next game!

Unless I get like 50 people telling me they think this is a hideous idea in the time it takes to go load BUFFY and roll a random start - I'll be back with the starting position in just a few minutes. Here's hoping we can all have fun with this, and maybe improve our game and enjoyment of it at the same time! :)

Settings will be Marathon, Prince, Continents, with only "Lock Modified Assets" Checked. Random leaders, including my own. I am not using Mapfinder, and will only regenerate the map a maximum of two times. Be back in a moment with the initial screenshots!

Starting save is attached later in the thread, it will only allow one attachment per thread. Please accept my apologies that you have to dig, I believe its on page 2... I didn't know I was able to attach through the site for public download, so I'm very sorry to make it difficult. :(

I think it's a good idea but you may want to run it past the HoF staff to see if it is OK.

This is from the rules section of HoF:

Game Type

Single Player only - All submissions must be played in single player mode by only one player. Multiple players cannot play the same submission.

It would be interesting to have a strat&tips joint effort though but I'm not sure it will be allowed for submissions.

http://i50.tinypic.com/2mr9xxj.png

So we are Ragnar, who is Aggressive and Financial. He starts with Fishing and Hunting.

Here is the start....

http://i49.tinypic.com/1yl554.jpg

OK, just like Sisiutil's great games, we start with our collective thoughts on the start! No idea is too bold, let's have some fun!

I think it's a good idea but you may want to run it past the HoF staff to see if it is OK.

This is from the rules section of HoF:

Game Type

Single Player only - All submissions must be played in single player mode by only one player. Multiple players cannot play the same submission.

It would be interesting to have a strat&tips joint effort though but I'm not sure it will be allowed for submissions.

Doesn't bother me if I'm not allowed to submit the games, to be honest. :) I'll be playing another game alongside it at all times to allow for discussion anyways, so I can just use my own games for that. :) If these submissions aren't allowed to be used, I will just "pretend" that they are so I know which leaders/map types/etc I've already "completed" thru the course of the challenge!

Valid concern and an excellent first post, thanks very much :)

EDIT: I'm not really concerned with getting the "title" anyways, rather just having something to work for. Unlike most HOF style games, I won't be using Mapfinder or anything, so to be honest I doubt most of my games would ever make the "board" anyways. I am just doing this to improve my own play, contribute to this amazing site - and learn and hopefully help others to do the same! :)

I'd settle 1W to get the furs. Worker first then workboat. Agriculture before the worker pops out.

Jay's thoughts on the start.

Not too bad, considering I took the very first start out of the box. I do assume I'm on the South Pole or quite close to it from the furs, and the seafood.

Since I assume we will discuss where to settle after moving the scout, I think my inclination looking at the setup is to definitely move him 1N, and then either 1NW to the forested plains hill, or 1NE to hopefully show more of the right side of the possible capital.

What's your thoughts, and feel free to tell me I suck - I'm here to learn! :)

I'd settle 1W to get the furs. Worker first then workboat. Agriculture before the worker pops out.

I was typing my thoughts out on the initial scout movement, but without it I agree with you based on what we know now!

I'd move the scout 1N 1 NW to the forested hill.

for the future I would provide screenshots with resources on, when you dont post save for checking (didnt saw it there).
maybe some players see it but me not.
I would probably send scout 2N1W to see what's more around, maybe the map will surprise you.

If that are really furs at the west settling 1W looks promisable, but without seeing food resources I can't comment more.

for the future I would provide screenshots with resources on, when you dont post save for checking (didnt saw it there).
maybe some players see it but me not.
I would probably send scout 2N1W to see what's more around, maybe the map will surprise you.

If that are really furs at the west settling 1W looks promisable, but without seeing food resources I can't comment more.

Yes, I am going to switch the screenshots, I noticed I forgot to flip it on after I posted it. So will be switchin them out. :) Gimme one sec!

hmm yes settling 1W seems best, next to the furs it looks like coast, so getting city for furs would look problematic.
Dunno if city provides irrigation after CS, if not than you would need for corn irrigation 2 tiles instead of 1. But you get 1 more hill in BFC for mining and better production.

That said... I would go work boat first, then worker. research aggri, mining, bw.
Reasons would be that furs don't provide much food, not much hammers and working them at start would be probably waste (except for the commerce), with worker i would irrigate corn and if the timing would be right mine 1 of those hills around.

At size 4 working 2x clams, 1x corn and 1 hill (plains hill probably would mine first), you get decent settler/work pump for some more expansion.

for the future I would provide screenshots with resources on, when you dont post save for checking (didnt saw it there).
maybe some players see it but me not.
I would probably send scout 2N1W to see what's more around, maybe the map will surprise you.

If that are really furs at the west settling 1W looks promisable, but without seeing food resources I can't comment more.

Anyways, now that the screenshot has been changed, yes there is a ton of food with corn and two seafood resources, and moving 1W would gain us two fur tiles along with keeping the three food resources.

Honestly, I'd never played with Ragnar before because I think the AGG/FIN combo is obviously crazy strong, but I haven't played many frigid climate starts and was kind of shocked to get such a good starting position on the first try. I'm sure they won't all be like this. :) Back to the strategy, all of our resources are workable with our starting techs, so early workboat and worker is ideal.

I'm probably going to go play a different start on my own in the meantime...unless someone can come up with a reason not to move the scout to that forested hill first, I'll make the first move and show the total starting position before I go to bed (2-3 hours from now) - with me playing the first turn tomorrow night (morning to most people).

Thanks for the early input, people - I'm having fun already! :)

Of course that's just my thought - with no outside input I would build the workboat first to get some food stored for early growth and then build my worker... but with the fur tiles and the corn I can also see reason to build worker early and keep it busy. :) Guess we'll have to decide once we see more of the start!

Short term I'd scout along the river, heading north to hopefully warmer climes.

1W would provide irrigation from the city to the corn after civil service (since it isn't a hill).

A worker has corn and fur to improve so I'd do that before a workboat. You'd want to build a workboat using the highest hammer tile anyway (3H) so your city isn't gonna grow then either. It's certainly not going to grow to size 2 before a worker is needed unless you build 2 boats.

EDIT: I'd go agg/mining/bw as tech path. You are going to want to mine those forested hills.

A worker has corn and fur to improve so I'd do that before a workboat. You'd want to build a workboat using the highest hammer tile anyway (3H) so your city isn't gonna grow then either. It's certainly not going to grow to size 2 before a worker is needed unless you build 2 boats.

EDIT: I'd go agg/mining/bw as tech path. You are going to want to mine those forested hills.

I agree with you, in some situations the worker doesn't have much to do initially - but here that worker will be working from the minute he touches down, so I'm in agreement here. I am also in agreement with the thoughts on the tech path of Agri/Mining/BW.

What I am NOT so sure on right now is that we shouldn't consider the inital move of the scout to 1N, 1NE - we know we will have two resources on the left of the BFC but we know very little about the right, and I'm kinda of curious what we might miss out on to go get those furs... maybe its just me trying to drub up discussion though. :lol:

Similar to many above, but my 2 cents:
Scout to forested plain hill, if nothing settle 1W
Research: agg->mining->bw->wheel->sailing/mysticism
Build: worker->workboat X2->warrior

Improve the corn first, then furs. Grow on the corn tile until size 2, then work 3H plains hill for workboat. Focus on growth early because you have a lot of tiles that benefit from the financial bonus (seafood and furs) and you want to be working them. After furs are improved, chop the PH into another worker and mine it, grow to the capitols happy cap. Use the new worker to road to the furs for +1 happy.

Explore around for new city sites, potential victims and alter plans as necessary (need an early settler for an awesome gold site or resource etc.) Road towards upcoming city sites and plan for barb spawnbusting.

The GLH could be nice here, or else/in addition go with Oracle->MC for colossus possibly, but this is probably speculating too far ahead. Monarchy is often good to research on prince because the AI is too slow with it.

Also, maybe consider switching to epic/normal speed for future games? About how many turns do you plan to play per set?

Similar to many above, but my 2 cents:
Scout to forested plain hill, if nothing settle 1W
Research: agg->mining->bw->wheel->sailing/mysticism
Build: worker->workboat X2->warrior

Improve the corn first, then furs. Grow on the corn tile until size 2, then work 3H plains hill for workboat. Focus on growth early because you have a lot of tiles that benefit from the financial bonus (seafood and furs) and you want to be working them. After furs are improved, chop the PH into another worker and mine it, grow to the capitols happy cap. Use the new worker to road to the furs for +1 happy.

Explore around for new city sites, potential victims and alter plans as necessary (need an early settler for an awesome gold site or resource etc.) Road towards upcoming city sites and plan for barb spawnbusting.

The GLH could be nice here, or else/in addition go with Oracle->MC for colossus possibly, but this is probably speculating too far ahead. Monarchy is often good to research on prince because the AI is too slow with it.

Also, maybe consider switching to epic/normal speed for future games? About how many turns do you plan to play per set?

Well, considering my micro is not generally that extensive, I don't have all that much trouble getting games in on Marathon. For an example, I'm already to 1520 BC in the start I have been playing this morning (also a Marathon start) - only I actually feel really good about the start I have as far as my micro and tile management has gone. So while I don't know exactly how many turns it will be - I'm sure my updates will be long enough of a time period to where people don't get bored following the game, and at the same time may provide us more time to think about key strategic situations then we would normally have playing a faster speed.

I feel this will probably improve my own game play a bit as it will force me to think more methodically also. Forcing myself to slow down and think more about situations is something I need to work on! :)

But, by all means - if this game drags out for too long, I will definitely lower the game speed for future installations! Thank you very much for your interest! :)

I'm going to move the scout to the forested plains hill. Picture in a moment.

http://i46.tinypic.com/200spph.jpg

First scout movement of 1N, 1NW to forest plains hill.

I'm not going to lie. I thought that tile might be tundra before we even moved, and now I'm more inclined towards settling in place and simply collecting the fur on capital border pops. I'm also inclined towards settling in place simply because we don't know what will eventually be the right side of our BFC, but I'm pretty sure whatever it will be will not be tundra, and I think we'll be more apt to get a strategic resource in our BFC for our capital if we settle.

That's my thoughts on what we know now. What are yours? :)

EDIT: also let it be known that I'm not against the tundra, but I generally would prefer not to have one in my capitals BFC in a continents map, especially considering we have three resource tiles already and will still easily get the fur benefits and a tradable one as well.

Definitely 1W. You get 1 useless tundra tile but 2 furs.

Definitely 1W. You get 1 useless tundra tile but 2 furs.

I've just got a hunch there's something in the fog to the east... but if the majority say we go 1W, we will go 1W.

More likely the north, that I think about it, which means we may not miss it if it's there anyways...

I vote 1W aswell. Getting the furs in your BFC will allow you to research alot faster early on + you can hold off on pottery a bit longer. This will really boost your research. Ofcourse working the furs will slow down your settler production, but you have plenty of forests surrounding your capital. So 1 chop/settler ought to speed things up (you may even consider just whipping).

I would have moved the scout one north of the settler to see what is there. Anyways, i would just sip right now and trust the mapgenerator. By moving one west you might waste a fish resource and the furs you can pick up with a second city.

btw, why did you choose marathon? Wouldn't a game take a very long time?

Definitely 1W. This is not close. The furs are far too valuable to throw away. If there is something to the east, another city will probably be able to work it.

Can you post the save, BTW?

Settle 1W for sure. Thi is not even close, IMO. Financial furs are gold mines- 5:commerce:1:hammers:1:food:1:) is huge, plus you gain an extra forest and hill for a very nice 4 hill capital with plenty of food to work everything. Definitely worker first - the corn is a much better tile to work than the crabs. Ag> mining> BW to start, then see what your scout shows about land/neighbors. I'd definitely consider chopping out the oracle for MC. GLH + colossus will be overpowering, and those furs will get you to PH very fast.

EDIT: I'll second the request for posting the starting save. :)

1W looks very good. I bet it's a trap, and you're settling on some strategic resource.

Even if iron or bronze shows up there it's not bad with the 3 food specials and 2 furs.

Post the starting save, por favor.

Sorry gents (and possible ladies) - I sleep a weird schedule, but have a few minutes before work.

I had hesitated on posting the save until I checked about the "HOF Validity" of these games, but being as I don't care and people would like to play shadow games, I have no problem with posting the save and will do so now. I'll edit the first post and link it there if possible.

I agree with the sentiments about the furs also, just thinking it could have been a solid second city, depending on the scouting. Every time I am in a "blue circle" and I move initially - I pay for it in the end no matter how good it looks!

However, I have seen only one person think settling in place was even a remotely good idea - so I will move 1W, settle - and post the new screenshot. I will be playing the first block of turns when I return from work tonight (early morning for most of you).

I'd like to say thanks for all the support though, I had a feeling this would be a lot of fun and it is - very much so - already! :)

Can anyone recommend a quality place to store the save? I don't have any webspace anymore of a personal nature and would like to get the save up before I get ready for work in an hour. :) Thanks.

http://i47.tinypic.com/73gpk6.jpg

Well, I know I won't get to say it often, but I'm gonna say "I told you so" on the fact that I knew we were going to miss out on a good resource by moving. So, we traded early marble for 2 furs. :(

I only played til the opening of year 3940, just long enough for me to toodle over and scout what we were missing (which may have been a suboptimal scouting move, but I simply couldn't resist. Working unimproved corn tile, building worker, researching Agriculture.

As I said, I'll be playing the first block of turns tonight, and I will gladly post the starting save if either someone can recommend a decent place to store it or I find one before I leave. Thanks for the input, once again, friends! :)

EDIT: obviously, we will still get the Marble on the second border pop, so this is not the greatest loss as we didn't lose out on quality tiles to improve. It may work out in the end. :)

2 fur > marble. These furs would probably been very hard to pick up with a second city as well compared to the marble

2 fur > marble. These furs would probably been very hard to pick up with a second city as well compared to the marble

Oh, I definitely agree. The "I told you so" was rather that I knew there was another resource over there, not that we made a bad decision. :)

OK folks, I found a spot to host the save with no problems... I'll be posting it here as well as in the initial post of the thread.

As in Sisiutil's great series that inspired the start of this one, I do ask that if you play a shadow game that you please keep any information about the map to yourself. I will not be submitting these games even though it's supposed to be for EQM, but I would still like to play the game as if I was submitting it to the HOF, which means absolutely no knowledge of the map or it's leaders, etc... I thank you for this courtesy!

OK, so I'll be getting ready for work in a moment. Going to take the laptop in and hopefully join the conversation if I have time at work (I am a manager, so it's quite possible if we are slow), but here's my thought so far.

Tech Path: finish Agri, Mining, BW. I'm guessing that we will want to go with masonry rather early now as well for wonder possibilities, but not too early as we won't be able to utilize it until the 2nd pop of our capital. Tech path is definitely an area where I feel my game needs work, so I'll be interested to hear where folks think we should go after we discover Bronze. We'll also probably want early pottery, even though the capital is hardly a "cottage paradise".

Scouting: after grabbing that goody hut, I'm thinking I will probably come back to the west and try to open as much land around the capital to discover possible sites for the second and third cities.

I would probably play till the discovery of Writing this evening, unless the majority of folks think that this is not far enough. This is the first time I've ever done this after all, so I will be guided by the community in this.

Thanks again to everyone for all the interest, make a poor bored guy smile! :)

JJ - you can attach the save directly to your post. Click "Go Advanced" and then "Manage Attachments

My firewall says that's a dangerous site and won't let me open the page. Follow lymond's advice and attack it directly to your post (use the little paper clip icon on the "reply to thread" page).

I know what I'd be thinking with this start: settle city 2 on the marble (looks like it'll be coastal) for auto connect to the capital, chop out the oracle there and take MC, chop a quick forge in the capital and run an engineer there to get a GE for bulbing MC and you're well on your way to BCs berserkers. GLH and Colossus later in the capital will give you a shot at a GM for bulbing CS. ;) OFC, make sure you're not isolated first. :lol:

It's up to you of course, but if you want to emulate Sisi, I suggest going with shorter segments. Playing up to Bronze would be about right. At that point, there's a lot of stuff to discuss. Writing is too far to get real feedback from the gallery.

What mods are in use?

Do not use a 3rd party server for saves. I don't want to wait 60 seconds, sign up for a new account, or enable javascript for yet another capcha image just so I can look at a save, let alone multiple ones for each series.

And moving acquired two grassland hills, very nice. Remember not to road the furs for as long as you can afford it.

Do not use a 3rd party server for saves. I don't want to wait 60 seconds, sign up for a new account, or enable javascript for yet another capcha image just so I can look at a save, let alone multiple ones for each series.

And moving acquired two grassland hills, very nice. Remember not to road the furs for as long as you can afford it.

Why would you not road furs?

JJ - you can attach the save directly to your post. Click "Go Advanced" and then "Manage Attachments

TYVM, I will do that. I see from the next message down that there was a problem with FileFront, so I'll be attaching to this post. Sorry about that, everyone. :(

What mods are in use?

The only mod I use is BUFFY 3.19.003 - no other mods, game is HOF Compliant.

It's up to you of course, but if you want to emulate Sisi, I suggest going with shorter segments. Playing up to Bronze would be about right. At that point, there's a lot of stuff to discuss. Writing is too far to get real feedback from the gallery.

Alright, I will be playing upto BW and then posting then. I am starting play now.

FIRST BLOCK - Up to discovery of Bronze Working

Continued to scout, moving to what turned to be the eastern coast, and then moving back westward, popping two huts - one for gold and another for a very large chunk of the map.

Then, in 3850 - we met our first civ who appeared to come from the N or NW -

http://i46.tinypic.com/205f428.jpg

In 3685, we have already lost a point of relations with Brennus, after our ambassador caused a "faux pas" - boy we are friendly and great already, love it! Then, another stroke of great luck - our scout was mauled by a bear in 3640, the same year a fellow Civ discovered the world's first religion, in Buddhism! I found out the next turn on the conversion that it was indeed Brennus who founded it, as I expected.

EDIT:

So we know, because Brennus's civ color is very hard to see (at least for me, I'm male colorblind) his capital's BFC is in the area by the cow tile to the North and slightly West... he's definitely close, and the culture of his religion makes me think trying to get him out of our hair quickly is our best course of action... we won't be able to REX far that's for sure - and most of the land to his east is not great for cities, at least in my "crap civ player" humble opinion. :)

In 3550 our worker finished, a few turns after the discovery of Agriculture and the start of Mining, and he went to work farming the corn tile. In 3235 BC, Nidaros grew to Pop 2, and I began working the finished corn and the three hammer tile to get out our workboat, so we can start getting that commerce from the seafood. The same turn marked the founding of Hinduism, so the first two early religions are now in play.

3085 BC marked the end of our 2nd build, the Work Boat, so I set it to fish one of the crab resources, and changed the city tiles to work the corn tile, and one of the furs. Since we still had a decent surplus of food, I was willing to take the decline in growth in order to bring the "money bag" in from the fur, along with a hammer that I would not have obtained from working the seafood tile. I feel this is the correct way to work these tiles, but I am interested in opinions on this play. Started building the 2nd fur camp, and a Warrior in Nidaros to finish scouting out the west coast near our start. Thinking at this point in this post of building another warrior for protection and using the other for an escort for the settler that I will build directly after.

The next turn I actually thought better of it, realized I was a little stoned, and switched from the 5F corn tile, to the 4F, 3C Seafood tile. This additional commerce lowered the finish of the BW tech to 15 turns, with our warrior finishing in 14. So I will scout out just to the west side of the start and I'll be stopping there to give us a good look.

The following screenshot is the beginning of the turn directly after the anarchy ended for adopting Slavery. As you can see, our only visible source of copper is quite a ways from the start... and in it's path is a lot of crap desert.

http://i46.tinypic.com/dqlyl4.jpg

So, we are now in the year 2830 BC, we are in our 2nd warrior build, and I have The Wheel picked for the tech to research simply as we had to have something up - but I am interested in tech path we should take here. At least for our first city, we have all the worker techs we need now - except for Masonry for the second border pop to incorporate Marble, and I'm thinking that Animal Husbandry may be necessary to find a strategic resource but that just could be me being panicky since this is the first game of this format and I'd like not to embarass myself too badly. :)

I'll be waiting for your input, I have the next two days off of work, so we will be able to get a lot of discussion and play in! Again, please accept my thanks to all of you for participating in this thread, and making me feel very welcome as a fellow lurker trying to play a bigger part in the fun of CivFanatics! :) Till next time!

Your bud,

Jay

It's up to you of course, but if you want to emulate Sisi, I suggest going with shorter segments. Playing up to Bronze would be about right. At that point, there's a lot of stuff to discuss. Writing is too far to get real feedback from the gallery.

Honestly, its not so much that I want to "emulate" Sisiutil, actually. I was just inspired by lurking and reading the ALC challenges all this time, and wanted to give the credit where credit was due. Definitely don't want to be thought of as "jocking his idea" or anything of the sort... just reading the ALC's and having so much fun doing it, and knowing I wanted to do it for myself - is the main reason I invoke his name. :)

So it's more of a "dedication" than a "emulation". I just wanna give something back, but I did take your advice as suggested and I played this block until Bronze. Thanks for your feedback, Abe! :)

Why would you not road furs?

I am also :confused: as to the reasoning behind this... Seems to me, especially with the ton of food in our capital, that we will need that happy resource sooner rather than later... but I am curious as to your reasoning behind this, and thank you for sharing!

the only thing i can come out with (about not roading furs) is to get worker doing better things then lose 3 turns of roading.

To the actual situation, if there will be horses (maybe switch research to AH) in some better position then copper and we will be indeed semi-isolated with rag only I would propose rush him.
Ragnar usually is tough to get around with...he almost always demands something, techs slowly and overall is annoying as mosquitos.
I know it's a bit long road (around 11-13 tiles to his cap), but could be worth it...

To screenshots, they are great and detailed, but you seem to play in wide resolution so I would propose to resize them a bit, only posting full screen here and there, so I dont have to always resize my browser (even splitting him to 2 monitors to read everything).

Jay Jackson is Ragnar ;)

Brennus is pretty annoying, builds a big military, is pretty warlike, and goes for cultural victory (which he rarely succeeds at because he is too busy having pointless wars).

You can get him pretty friendly if you run organised religion though.

EDIT: Marathon speed it's 9 turns to build a road or something ridiculous. Barbarians are bad on marathon too.

Jay Jackson is Ragnar ;)

Brennus is pretty annoying, builds a big military, is pretty warlike, and goes for cultural victory (which he rarely succeeds at because he is too busy having pointless wars).

You can get him pretty friendly if you run organised religion though.

ah i see... i always mix things up :-), no matter what i would rush him too :-D just to teach him ;-)

the thing is...well to the south is not that attractive surroundings, that copper+gold location lacks good food resource, you can probably make pig+wheat city or pig+marble city, pig+hills coastal prod. city and that's it...

that's 4 cities and mostly unimpressive, to the east you will work either gold or copper, not both, in the middle there is a lot of waste with desert and mountains, to west it depends on the black tiles near river, how many farms you get there for all those hills around.

4N of the capital to get the pigs corn and Oasis looks to be the only semi decent site (apart from the pigs on the west coast).

I wouldn't rush anyone until iron is discovered ;) The bronze site is poor, last resort stuff.

the only thing i can come out with (about not roading furs) is to get worker doing better things then lose 3 turns of roading.

To the actual situation, if there will be horses (maybe switch research to AH) in some better position then copper and we will be indeed semi-isolated with rag only I would propose rush him.
Ragnar usually is tough to get around with...he almost always demands something, techs slowly and overall is annoying as mosquitos.
I know it's a bit long road (around 11-13 tiles to his cap), but could be worth it...

To screenshots, they are great and detailed, but you seem to play in wide resolution so I would propose to resize them a bit, only posting full screen here and there, so I dont have to always resize my browser (even splitting him to 2 monitors to read everything).

I play on a very nice laptop, so thanks for the compliment on the screenshots. I have noticed they are too big and I apologize. I actually am using Paint right now simply because I've been too lazy to find my PS CD and install it. :) I've never really done much with forum screenshots before to be honest - I've written a lot on other forums in the past but nothing like this so I'll try to figure out a way to make them fit to the screen.

When I uploaded them to Tinypic they will allow you to resize right there but at least the one I tried it came out too small - I'll post a test after this and see if I can get them to a reasonable level - I don't want to turn people off to the game because I'm learning how to make things look better still! ;)

As for worker turns, before getting BW I was putting a mine on the hill in the top left of the fat cross (grassland I believe without looking). Then we have some chopping to do. I'm thinking I'll take the turns to get that road in to the fur sooner rather than later to improve the happy cap of the city.

We're definitely going to need the ability to work animals anyways for our next city, so I don't disagree with the switch to AH if we decide to do it, getting horses could be big because it is hard to see but Brennus is *CLOSE.* Like we could rush him if we get horses close. It's really too bad that barb bears are more prevalent in cold climate starts, because we really needed that scout.

Jay Jackson is Ragnar ;)

Brennus is pretty annoying, builds a big military, is pretty warlike, and goes for cultural victory (which he rarely succeeds at because he is too busy having pointless wars).

You can get him pretty friendly if you run organised religion though.

EDIT: Marathon speed it's 9 turns to build a road or something ridiculous. Barbarians are bad on marathon too.

Honestly, just because I'm not a high-level player I imagine, the change in speeds doesn't really change much to me. You get a lot more detailed scouting done on Marathon is the biggest reason why I prefer it - that and I play very fast. The biggest thing that I always say when I talk to people about Marathon is that everyone in the world techs for the same amount of turns (barring differing research times obviously) - so it stays even-keel except for movement as the units still move the same.

I can't wait to play more though. Brennus is in crazy good blocking position, I don't think we *can* avoid war with him, and to be honest I fancy myself as much more of a builder.

I took your scrnshot and edited some form of early dotmap

255990

I dont like the number of cities... 3 good ones is too low... rush is in order! :-D, would await what crowd has to say about this

I took your scrnshot and edited some form of early dotmap

255990

I dont like the number of cities... 3 good ones is too low... rush is in order! :-D, would await what crowd has to say about this

Oh yes, I'm at least going to sleep before the next turn is in. :) Thank you very much for the dotmap, I'm working on resizing screenies :)

It's worth checking the beaver in the SW to see if there is any seafood.

A rush is definitely in order but I'd tech iron working and maybe construction first, unless you can do a chariot or horse archer rush.

It's worth checking the beaver in the SW to see if there is any seafood.

A rush is definitely in order but I'd tech iron working and maybe construction first, unless you can do a chariot or horse archer rush.

well technically waiting for construction it's definitely not a rush...
I think now it really depends on position of horses, if we have luck they will be close to city 1, or city 2...

if we dont decide for rush in BCs (bad position horses, builder mood), it would be best to cottage river grass around cap, city 1 builds library asap to get running scientist.

I went and changed all the screenshots in the thread to a different size, they seem fine to me on my machine, and I'm hopeful they are fine on your guys end!

I don't understand the panic about Brennus. And there's no problem staying with a small empire initially. Ragnar will tech very quickly - I'd aim to stay small until I get to berserkers. Settle city 2 SW of the pig, settle city 3 to grab the copper/gold. I'd tech AH> wheel> myst> med> PH> pottery and chop out the oracle and a forge in the capital. Run an engineer for a 50-50 chance on an engineer to bulb machinery, otherwise if you get a GP save him for the buddhist shrine. :devil: Meanwhile, go for writing next to get OB with Brennus, then convert to buddhism when it spreads to you. After writing tech alpha> currency. Meanwhile, build the GLH in the capital, along with Colossus. This will power you to early machinery/CS. Trade for construction and all those nice cities of Brennus will be yours in no time. There's no reason why you can't have berserkers in the BCs, which will be crazy strong.

I don't understand the panic about Brennus. And there's no problem staying with a small empire initially. Ragnar will tech very quickly - I'd aim to stay small until I get to berserkers. Settle city 2 SW of the pig, settle city 3 to grab the copper/gold. I'd tech AH> wheel> myst> med> PH> pottery and chop out the oracle and a forge in the capital. Run an engineer for a 50-50 chance on an engineer to bulb machinery, otherwise if you get a GP save him for the buddhist shrine. :devil: Meanwhile, go for writing next to get OB with Brennus, then convert to buddhism when it spreads to you. After writing tech alpha> currency. Meanwhile, build the GLH in the capital, along with Colossus. This will power you to early machinery/CS. Trade for construction and all those nice cities of Brennus will be yours in no time. There's no reason why you can't have berserkers in the BCs, which will be crazy strong.


Oh, I'm not panicked! :) This doesn't sound like a bad plan, but I'm definitely leaving it open for discussion until this evening, when I will play the turn. :)

Seems like a good start so far. I'm interested in this game because I play on the same settings you do (Prince/Marathon).

I would either tech AH right away, or immediately after Wheel. You have pig and cow nearby. More importantly, it will let you know if you have any horse. With your copper being in an inconvenient position, a chariot or HA rush could be a better option, if horse is located in a better spot.

If not, then I suggest just playing a "builder" game until you tech IW/Construction for swords + catapults, or until you have berserkers. It depends on how early you want to attack Brennus.

Keeping Brennus around for a while may net him a nice shrine and a few wonders too.

I am also :confused: as to the reasoning behind this... Seems to me, especially with the ton of food in our capital, that we will need that happy resource sooner rather than later... but I am curious as to your reasoning behind this, and thank you for sharing!

You want to luck upon a forest growth before the happiness becomes necessary. Especially on marathon.

You want to luck upon a forest growth before the happiness becomes necessary. Especially on marathon.

I kind of thought this might have been what you were getting at. Rather, I'll say that its about the only thing I could think of. :)

Gonna wait a few more minutes just to make sure there are no other ideas to consider, and then I'll be playing the next block of turns.

OK I'm about to start the next turn now, saw our thread was creeping down the page so I'm guessing we're as on the same page as we can be. Here's what I'm going to put into motion...

TECH: AH -> wheel -> mysticism -> meditation -> priesthood -> pottery -> writing

I will probably stop play at writing, or shortly before the Oracle pops. I'm definitely not going to go too far, we'll probably want to weigh the look of the game at this point. Turn STARTED.

Year 2830BC to Discovery of Writing

First things first, I changed tech to Animal Husbandry which will take 14 turns to complete. Going to scout out that fur tile to check for seafood as suggested, and then continuing on.

On the very next turn, we met our 2nd rival...

http://i50.tinypic.com/j91rmg.jpg

Also BUFFY decided to chime in directly after I met Darius and informed me that Brennus and Darius already hate each other worst-enemy style. Which was kind of shocking with the -1 relations boost I'd already got for the earlier faux pas.

Animal Husbandry finished, and I started on the wheel. Here's a look at the Horses we were looking for and their location.

http://i48.tinypic.com/11l3om9.jpg

This of course means that they will be in the BFC for what we had already called the first settling site. Good news for us! :goodjob:

In 2450, I whipped two of Nidaros's 4 population to get our settler out as fast as possible as City 2 will already be under heavy cultural pressure from Brennus and I felt the sooner I got it out, the better so I took this sacrifice. So, in 2410...

http://i50.tinypic.com/67kx74.jpg

I'll get it to work on a Monument as soon as Mysticism finishes, for now it will start a second worker for our civilization. Just two turns later, our sacrifice for the earlier settler was paid back in full by a random event!

http://i49.tinypic.com/2yvwjrc.jpg

The oasis will now be a 3F, 4C tile for the rest of the game! That will be a large early boost to our civiization's research!

Just got the message for the completion of Stonehenge in a faraway land at 2380BC... shocked, kind of figured it would be Brennus... and then only a short 90 years later in 2290BC, our newest scout finds the 4th civ on this landmass...

http://i46.tinypic.com/2hz5mk4.jpg

OK, so I know Augustus is a peacenik, but still... I'm not exactly enthused about the possibility of facing Immortals at Horses, and then Praets at Swords. Granted Augustus must be far away, but this is still an interesting setup with the random draw.

Finally for the turn, at 1910 BC we discover...

http://i50.tinypic.com/2vw66pc.jpg

Here's two screenshots showing the state of the map as we have uncovered.

NEAR:

http://i48.tinypic.com/2ikga9.jpg

FAR:

http://i48.tinypic.com/2ywiro3.jpg

As you can see from the picture, we've started researching Alphabet (though I wonder if we should switch to Math and attempt a CS slingshot with the Oracle. Thoughts?

As for the second settler, our dotmap that was so nicely made for us is kind of out of the window, as Brennus has basically culturally taken "City Site 3" which was the only other city listed on the dotmap other than the Gold/Copper site which we had said would be a last resort. What our the thoughts for new city placement?

I also think that early war is now a foregone conclusion, as we now know that both Brennus and Caesar have access to Gold for their research, and I know Caesar also has Marble... he could be formidable. Brennus is just in the damn way, although I agree with an earlier post that we may want to wait and get a shrine and some nice wonders before we attack.

Thoughts? I'm having a great time playing and posting about all this folks, so thanks for participating!!

Your friend,

Jay

I'd consider chariot rushing Brennus. It would certainly open up more room for you to expand, and it shouldn't be too difficult. He appears to only have one city. You could sign Open Borders with him and see how many defenders he has, and build up chariots accordingly. Rushing him this early would mean we lose out on the possibility of a shrine or wonders, but with him there, you really have no good places to settle.

Tech situation - I've found that on Prince, teching Alphabet early isn't as necessary as it might be on higher levels, since you can keep up with the AI in tech fairly easily. If you tech Alphabet this early, you may find that no one else has anything valuable to trade.

Not sure what would be best to tech, though...Maybe Monarchy? I don't think happiness is that much of an issue yet...You could go Masonry + Aesthetics and pick up some wonders with your marble.

An Oracle CS slingshot would require teching Code of Laws, which is a little risky, as the Oracle might be built by someone else before then. It's definitely possible, though. It seems to be kind of random - some games, the Oracle gets built really early, and other games, no one seems to build it.

A more reliable option would be to take CoL or MC, but it's your call.

I'd consider chariot rushing Brennus. It would certainly open up more room for you to expand, and it shouldn't be too difficult. He appears to only have one city. You could sign Open Borders with him and see how many defenders he has, and build up chariots accordingly. Rushing him this early would mean we lose out on the possibility of a shrine or wonders, but with him there, you really have no good places to settle.

Tech situation - I've found that on Prince, teching Alphabet early isn't as necessary as it might be on higher levels, since you can keep up with the AI in tech fairly easily. If you tech Alphabet this early, you may find that no one else has anything valuable to trade.

Not sure what would be best to tech, though...Maybe Monarchy? I don't think happiness is that much of an issue yet...You could go Masonry + Aesthetics and pick up some wonders with your marble.

An Oracle CS slingshot would require teching Code of Laws, which is a little risky, as the Oracle might be built by someone else before then. It's definitely possible, though. It seems to be kind of random - some games, the Oracle gets built really early, and other games, no one seems to build it.

A more reliable option would be to take CoL or MC, but it's your call.

I'm not even sure if with needing to possibly rush Brennus to expand if its even a good idea to build The Oracle... might be hammers better spent on Chariots?

Note: I'm an emperor/immortal player, so I'm not perfect, but I think the following is solid advice.

You need to chop more and build more workers.

(Chopping early game can make a huge difference because early builds are often so important.)

Example 1: Bad idea building that second settler in the capital. IF you had a decent 3rd city spot, you should've built another worker, used that worker to chop out another worker, and then used those two workers to chop out a settler, then brought one or two workers along with that settler to get that third city improved ASAP (with focus on food/hammer improvements depending on your needs). It's a bad idea to build third cities and leave them with unimproved tiles for a long time. It's also a bad idea to not have enough workers so that you can't build critical improvements or chop critical stuff out (e.g. monument in Uppsala).

Now there's that IF. I don't see any excellent third city spot. Best I see is the faraway gold+copper+cow spot, which would yield quick production or commerce (depending on what you choose to work early). The western pigs+hills city would be great, if Brennus' capital wasn't already taking half its tiles with its culture. :(

Most importantly, you probably want to chariot rush Brennus, and the production you sunk in order to build another settler did NOT help. If you want to chariot rush someone, you focus on getting food+production and building barracks+units, NOT building half-decent third & fourth & fifth cities. Now, if you don't want to chariot rush Brennus, then building a third city is definitely necessary. But in either case, you should've built workers.

[Minor point: Why is working roading in 2370BC screenshot? This is marathon speed, so it should've been improving pigs to get that 2nd worker out faster. The 1gpt trade route doesn't matter as much as the +3 food.]

So looking at the geography, you don't have great city sites. But getting Brennus' capital will open up a lot of land of you, letting you have lots of GNP+production later in the game giving you an easy win. Additionally, you won't have to whip much to build an army, because your cities have hills so they'll have lots of production! So rushing Brennus is a do-able priority. :) Here's what you do:

1. make sure Brennus doesn't have copper and that his capital is not on a hill. (If either of those aren't true, chariot rush won't work; I would then recommend axe rush with the copper of the third city.)
2. focus on growing cities fast so that they can work production tiles (if they can't grow fast, work production right away).
3. build barracks, then build chariots. chop as much as you can, since you should have lots of workers

Whether a chariot rush is advisable or not, eliminating Brennus fast is probably better than getting semi-useless techs with Oracle. Although, this being prince, I can imagine oracling something nice like CS (using the gold from third city to get there), and then getting berserkers faster and killing Brennus then with your nice production. I guess that's what you've been considering?

ALSO, please post current saves: it's easier to evaluate your current empire looking at a save than fuzzy screens. For instance, someone might like to check Demographics to see whether Brennus built Stonehenge.

Killing Brennus early will just open up a lot of land for the other AIs, so it's a double-edged sword. Since you have writing, open borders with him and scout him out. If you see a 5:hammers: hill or grass mine, you better think twice about a chariot rush. He will beeline IW for his UU, but this is prince after all. Personally, I'd let him expand and build cities for me, and he'll likely be warring with Darius (which his good - Darius can be a tech monster if he gets a lot of land and stays out of war). Make sure you grab that copper - it'll make a fine moai city, especially if you get the colossus (4:commerce:1:hammers: coast will be like US villages in the BCs) and you need it for your UU (no guarantee that you'll get iron). If you wait until you have a full set of the early economic techs (currency, CoL, CS and monarchy) you'll be better set for supporting a large empire then if you grab a lot of land early. Brennus will also spread buddhism for you to the other AIs, making the eventual shrine much more profitable.

Killing Brennus early will just open up a lot of land for the other AIs, so it's a double-edged sword.

Brennus is far away from the other AIs. So if you kill him early it won't make much of a difference for their expansion. On the other hand, you'll be able to expand a lot (especially seeing as this is prince) and win easily. You might even be able to block more land than Brennus would.

Personally, I'd let him expand and build cities for me, and he'll likely be warring with Darius (which his good - Darius can be a tech monster if he gets a lot of land and stays out of war). Make sure you grab that copper - it'll make a fine moai city, especially if you get the colossus (4:commerce:1:hammers: coast will be like US villages in the BCs) and you need it for your UU (no guarantee that you'll get iron).

I guess that works. Problem is it might be kind of hard to conquer Brennus mid-game with only three cities (or so). But I guess if you get Berserkers before he gets longbows (using marble and Oracle for a bit of help) this will work fine, too.

If you wait until you have a full set of the early economic techs (currency, CoL, CS and monarchy) you'll be better set for supporting a large empire then if you grab a lot of land early. Brennus will also spread buddhism for you to the other AIs, making the eventual shrine much more profitable.

Getting Brennus' two or three cities won't ruin your economy much at prince, and having a good economy early is not important if you get lots of land. The gold resource and some cottages are more than enough to maintain the economy and eventually get you those solid economic techs you mentioned (which aren't SUPER critical).

It's often good to forget about feeling "comfortable" with a prosperous economy at all times and focus on grabbing the early land lead which will pay off big time later.

Still, your strategy of taking Brennus later should be sufficient to win, although IMO rushing Brennus early is better.

@nilsmo

I've played more than my share of early rushes, and that strat will certaily work. But in my last couple of games (on monarch) I started in similar positions to this one: boxed in on the end of a continent. In each case I could have chariot rushed early, but instead I focused on early research to grab a key military tech lead while letting my neighbor expand before taking them out. I've found it's a very effective strategy, and I think it's particularly well suited for Ragnar in a situation like this. MC is hardly a "semi-useless oracle tech" given this leader and a coastal start. In fact, I think it will be overpowering in this situation - GLH+colossus for supercharged :science:, more :hammers: from early forges, and berserkers in the BCs are overpowering regardless of whether the AI has longbows. I'll play a shadow game to see if I can back this up.

I was biggest advocate of early rush I admit. But since we have now scouted the northern part of the world, some of my thoughts.

Still don't know how exactly good or bad is Brennus capital, but the surrounding land will be great after Calendar and IW! So if you wanted to get that land for you, you will place suboptimal cities which will eat you maintenance.

Too bad Brennus cap is eating our prod site to the west, but I now kind of agree with settling gold site with copper and use that early gold (which generates it's share of wealth and happy!) to our tech advantage.

Disadvantage is brennus will be a bit prepared for us, but there we could involve our diplo skills with making some war between Darius and Brennus in the time we will prepare Bers. war.

Its been a while since I played prince, but surely a chariot rush is out of the question at this stage. A Horse archer rush would likely be more effective and less doomed to failure.

Note: I'm an emperor/immortal player, so I'm not perfect, but I think the following is solid advice.

You need to chop more and build more workers.

(Chopping early game can make a huge difference because early builds are often so important.)

Example 1: Bad idea building that second settler in the capital. IF you had a decent 3rd city spot, you should've built another worker, used that worker to chop out another worker, and then used those two workers to chop out a settler, then brought one or two workers along with that settler to get that third city improved ASAP (with focus on food/hammer improvements depending on your needs). It's a bad idea to build third cities and leave them with unimproved tiles for a long time. It's also a bad idea to not have enough workers so that you can't build critical improvements or chop critical stuff out (e.g. monument in Uppsala).

Now there's that IF. I don't see any excellent third city spot. Best I see is the faraway gold+copper+cow spot, which would yield quick production or commerce (depending on what you choose to work early). The western pigs+hills city would be great, if Brennus' capital wasn't already taking half its tiles with its culture. :(

Most importantly, you probably want to chariot rush Brennus, and the production you sunk in order to build another settler did NOT help. If you want to chariot rush someone, you focus on getting food+production and building barracks+units, NOT building half-decent third & fourth & fifth cities. Now, if you don't want to chariot rush Brennus, then building a third city is definitely necessary. But in either case, you should've built workers.

[Minor point: Why is working roading in 2370BC screenshot? This is marathon speed, so it should've been improving pigs to get that 2nd worker out faster. The 1gpt trade route doesn't matter as much as the +3 food.]

Great feedback. I'll try to explain my thoughts a bit. :)

First, on the worker roading in 2370.. he's hooking up the horse to both cities... it was outside of the fat cross when it started, but in case we decided to chariot rush, I wanted to be able to hook this up as fast as possible, and for this I sacrificed a bit of early growth with the pig tile. It definitely wasn't for a trade route. :)

At the same time, I wasn't really concentrating on a Brennus rush, just preparing in case it became absolutely necessary strategically. This also explains not building units yet, as I didn't see any real reason to build Warriors with no horse hookup yet.



So looking at the geography, you don't have great city sites. But getting Brennus' capital will open up a lot of land of you, letting you have lots of GNP+production later in the game giving you an easy win. Additionally, you won't have to whip much to build an army, because your cities have hills so they'll have lots of production! So rushing Brennus is a do-able priority. :) Here's what you do:

1. make sure Brennus doesn't have copper and that his capital is not on a hill. (If either of those aren't true, chariot rush won't work; I would then recommend axe rush with the copper of the third city.)
2. focus on growing cities fast so that they can work production tiles (if they can't grow fast, work production right away).
3. build barracks, then build chariots. chop as much as you can, since you should have lots of workers



Yes, first order of business will be to scout Brennus's capital city for recon. We do have a slight advantage, though a different one - with the way I've played so far, and that is us having horses as soon as the improvement is finished. While it sacrificed the growth of Uppsala, we're in a better tactical position, at least in my eyes. Also, the mass of hills around made me make the choice to whip the monument in Uppsala, rather than going the "double worker chop route". In essence, I sacrificed that early growth for what I felt was a better tactical position. Not saying I'm right, of course, just wanted to offer insight into my thought.




Whether a chariot rush is advisable or not, eliminating Brennus fast is probably better than getting semi-useless techs with Oracle. Although, this being prince, I can imagine oracling something nice like CS (using the gold from third city to get there), and then getting berserkers faster and killing Brennus then with your nice production. I guess that's what you've been considering?



Honestly, I hadn't made up my mind yet (and was the main reason this turn was just played till writing, to get community input) - but wanted to leave my options open, which I believe are 3 or 4 different at this stage of the game.

1. Rush Brennus (chariots if possible, axe or sword depending), foregoing the Oracle and focusing solely on expansion through the early war.

2. Have fewer cities but prioritize Oracle/MC and go to war at Construction.

3. Have fewer cities, switch tech path to Math/CoL and attempt a CS Slingshot - still going to war at construction.

4. Have fewer cities, build the Oracle for MC, while also hoping for good terrain in the Brennus capital to at least fight a limited war, taking Brennus's capital at least for expansion purposes.

--

I'm not saying there aren't other options, but this is the thought process currently being ran in my "noble/prince" type brain. While you say "I'm emperor/immortal so not perfect" - I'd like to say emperor/immortal thought and guidance for both myself and others is the main reason I have decided to start this theory, and I thank you much for the amount of thought and information you have given in your post. :)


ALSO, please post current saves: it's easier to evaluate your current empire looking at a save than fuzzy screens. For instance, someone might like to check Demographics to see whether Brennus built Stonehenge.

I will absolutely do this at all "intermission points" in the future, no problem. :) Thanks again for your feedback!

Jay

@nilsmo

I've played more than my share of early rushes, and that strat will certaily work. But in my last couple of games (on monarch) I started in similar positions to this one: boxed in on the end of a continent. In each case I could have chariot rushed early, but instead I focused on early research to grab a key military tech lead while letting my neighbor expand before taking them out. I've found it's a very effective strategy, and I think it's particularly well suited for Ragnar in a situation like this. MC is hardly a "semi-useless oracle tech" given this leader and a coastal start. In fact, I think it will be overpowering in this situation - GLH+colossus for supercharged :science:, more :hammers: from early forges, and berserkers in the BCs are overpowering regardless of whether the AI has longbows. I'll play a shadow game to see if I can back this up.

I could have saved myself some typing had I read all the replies in the thread, but I had just woke up from an extremely weirdly timed nap. :) I'll admit most of my thought was inspired by your earlier posts, Huerfanista, and this post probably sums up my overall thinking best. I could have probably dedicated full out to a chariot rush once I saw that we'd have the horses for the second city - but I felt building towards two possible objectives left us in a better position for future turns - (IE - we are still in play for both a CS slingshot, a MC Oracle, or a full-on attempt at a rush even though we'd have to really kick it into gear for much more than a limited war at this point). I also agree that MC would be far from the "semi-useless Oracle tech" as we do have enough early production for those forges alone to be a major boon.

To be honest, I feel I've already learned more in this start than probably my previous ten games, just from the excellent feedback I've been recieving here. Thanks again, guys - the early returns on all this have made me really glad I did it. :)

Its been a while since I played prince, but surely a chariot rush is out of the question at this stage. A Horse archer rush would likely be more effective and less doomed to failure.

I would agree with you strictly by the time of the game in most instances, but our knowledge of the map makes me think we still have a bit of time. Unless Brennus has metal hiding in the few squares we have no knowledge of inside his borders, he still has no strategic resource. He needs at least one more border pop if brain serves me to even acquire the ability to build chariots as they popped well outside his initial borders. It's about as close as it can be to not being feasible, but I believe it still could be executed, at least in a limited fashion.

One good thing that we have going for us is that so far both of our rival civs cannot stand Brennus, so we will suffer no diplomatic penalties when we do decide to declare.

Wanted to leave a post near the top of a page with all saves I've acquired at this point for those of you who want a better look at the lay of the land, or want to shadow from a certain point. Thanks to all of you here at Civfanatics, again, for making this project a great deal of fun and helping us all to learn more! :)

Jay

(The 4000 BC save is only allowed to be posted once in this thread, so only the 1910 and 2830 saves are provided here, sorry)

Definitely scout Brennus and kill him with chariots probably skipping the barracks. I'm pretty aggressive at this level and am wondering why Brennus is still in the game. (Yes, that aggressive.) An early AI capitol and worker is worth much more than waiting for them to do something constructive like a shrine/wonder. It will take them forever.

Definitely scout Brennus and kill him with chariots probably skipping the barracks. I'm pretty aggressive at this level and am wondering why Brennus is still in the game. (Yes, that aggressive.) An early AI capitol and worker is worth much more than waiting for them to do something constructive like a shrine/wonder. It will take them forever.

If the rush is feasible, I'm going to rush. The most valuable thing I can see right now is land, and Brennus has it. The land is more valuable than the free tech from The Oracle. On that note, I believe I'm going to start the turn, we need more information. :)

It's too late for a chariot rush, but horse archers are perfect. I dont see the point of trying to grab a military tech lead further on, if you can already have one now (he's not going to have much of a counter for horse archers on prince). Especially since horse archers will save you precious turns as opposed to using catapults which are slower. So my plan would be:

- settle that 3rd city in a nice production spot
- build barracks while you tech for horse archers
- chop/slave out horse archers (i know there will be people who dont agree with the chopping here, but i find that the turns you win by having captured cities earlier are more important than the couple of hammers from a chop).

Note: i play on vanilla though, where the AI tends to expand a little faster usually. So to me, this looks like a total box in. Dont know if you can make something of this in bts without early war.

It's too late for a chariot rush, but horse archers are perfect. I dont see the point of trying to grab a military tech lead further on, if you can already have one now (he's not going to have much of a counter for horse archers on prince). Especially since horse archers will save you precious turns as opposed to using catapults which are slower. So my plan would be:

- settle that 3rd city in a nice production spot
- build barracks while you tech for horse archers
- chop/slave out horse archers (i know there will be people who dont agree with the chopping here, but i find that the turns you win by having captured cities earlier are more important than the couple of hammers from a chop).

Note: i play on vanilla though, where the AI tends to expand a little faster usually. So to me, this looks like a total box in. Dont know if you can make something of this in bts without early war.

We're about to find out. Will keep this in mind! :goodjob:

1910-1000BC

I'm starting the turn by switching the tech path to Masonry. No sense not taking the turns off the Oracle with Marble in our cultural borders. Open Borders with all civs, sending Warrior off to scout Brennus.

OK, so in 1840.. we see this and we're going to throw it back to the community. It's obvious from the picture that Brennus has Iron, and this will alter our plans I would assume. So I'll throw it back out for discussion.

http://i45.tinypic.com/2646fwz.jpg

Its been a while since I played prince, but surely a chariot rush is out of the question at this stage. A Horse archer rush would likely be more effective and less doomed to failure.
It's too late for a chariot rush, but horse archers are perfect.
I don't think it's too late for a chariot rush on Prince, especially not after seeing that last screenshot. Brennus only has two units in his capital (probably Archers, or Archer/Warrior). 5-6 chariots can take him out quickly, if placed right. I'd have at least 4 chariots enter from the northwest and move onto the tile NW of Bibracte. Then have another chariot move in from the east and pillage his iron ASAP.

Looking at the screenshot again, it appears that Brennus has settled a second city. (You can see Celtic borders NE of Bibracte, near the Cow/Oasis.) I don't think that changes things much - you can just take his capital and make peace ASAP or pillage him while waiting for the rest of your units to heal and building more. He won't be able to do much.

I was going to suggest teching Masonry and waiting to build the Oracle in favor of building chariots, but it seems you did that anyway. And speaking of the Oracle, I take back what I said earlier about a CS slingshot - it's probably a better idea than taking MC, and more feasible than I originally thought.

I don't think it's too late for a chariot rush on Prince, especially not after seeing that last screenshot. Brennus only has two units in his capital (probably Archers, or Archer/Warrior). 5-6 chariots can take him out quickly, if placed right.

Well, i disagree here. That last screenshot shows he's hooking up iron. That means access to spearmen. And spearmen really shred chariots to pieces brutally. Best approach in my opinion is waiting for horse archers. Those are still vulnerable to spearmen, but atleast they dont get slaughtered. However, do take care to pillage his iron asap.

Another approach is chopping/slaving out chariots NOW. And then immediatly attacking, before he gets out his first spearman. And then pillaging his iron. But still, i'd go with horse archers.

You can count on Brennus whipping an archer or two. Surprising he doesn't yet have a second city.

Another approach is chopping/slaving out chariots NOW. And then immediatly attacking, before he gets out his first spearman. And then pillaging his iron. But still, i'd go with horse archers.
Yeah, that would be the only way for it to work. It would certainly be difficult to hit him before he builds one spearman, I suppose, but I'm pretty sure 3-4 suicide chariots could take down one spear.

The reason I think an early rush is best is that otherwise, there's nowhere to expand (no good city sites, at least in the short term).

Actually, a later horse archer attack seems fine, too; I just don't know what there is to do between now and teching HBR.

Surprising he doesn't yet have a second city.
He does. You can see it in the screenshot, to the right.

Edit: I just thought of another idea. Probably a ridiculous suggestion, but I'm just throwing it out there. Why not build one or two chariots (and/or warriors/archers), DoW Brennus, and pillage his iron, leaving units there so he can't get access to it? Chariots could run around pillaging his cow/gold/roads as well. Meanwhile you build up an attacking force of chariots while he can build nothing but archers, and if you park units on his highest-hammer tiles, he won't be able to build them quickly, either. Again, probably a bad idea, but I've done this in a few games.

Thanks see the second city now. Since the date 1000 BC is included, can we expect Brennus is no more?

It's marathon, it's likely you can rush. It's hard to tell without knowing his monument culture level (should have been chopped).

Why did you go the wheel before mysticism? With double fur/prince, your expansion/critical techs looks slow. Did you overflow into a settler?

1840 BC for starting preparing rush is kind of late... even on prince...

There is possibility he will have no archers, since on prince AI doesnt start with archery and have to tech it (so it depends a bit if he had hunting at start), but since he went for IW... well there is good possibility he will have not.
That would mean he will build some axeman and if he sees chariots spearman(and he will thanks to OB).

I think we missed that timeframe because of our undecisiveness and should get to backup plans.

Btw Jay that's one thing that is obvious you should not listen EVERY advice... you should stick to one strategy and follow it... You already switched plans totally at least 2-3 times and there is possibility you will screw all strategies with such approach.

He's got an archer in his capital.

He's got an archer in his capital.

and maybe ignore my advice at all ;-). But I am doing/commenting this with the best intentions, i swear!

If Brennus didn't have that riverside gold, he maybe wouldn't have gotten to IW by now, and a quick & easy chariot rush would've gotten his capital. Oh well..

It's not going to be easy to chop/whip enough chariots before he can whip a deadly spear, but it's possible as people have said. Surprise attack him, then before you attempt to take his capital, pillage his iron. Hopefully that's the only iron he has and hopefully hasn't built spears yet. In that case you can calmly go in and beat his archers. (You'll probably need 2.5 chariots for each archer, I think?)

If you had focused on chariot rush earlier, you would've had Brennus's capital by now. But it's OK, you can go for axe attack, catapult attack or even berskerker attack. Just pick a strategy and focus on it.

Brennus's capital can make a great Oxford city later on. Cottage the flood plains, work the gold, and with financial you'll get huge yields. And, again, the land it opens up will be valuable.

And minor follow up:

First, on the worker roading in 2370.. he's hooking up the horse to both cities
You could've pastured pigs first and then roaded to horses well before border pop. (You didn't have mysticism yet much less a monument in Uppsala.) Heck, if you improved the pigs you probably would've gotten the horses pastured earlier, because the 2nd worker in Uppsala would've finished before the border pop. So if you had pastured the pigs first you would've gotten the worker done maybe a dozen turns earlier, gotten Uppsala to complete its monument faster (you could've chopped it with the help of the extra worker), gotten Uppsala growing faster, etc.

I just find this kind of micro very helpful: improve food first, it's huge.

You'd better scout his second city. Since Brennus has IW, he only needs copper or iron for his UU. I still don't see why everyone's so hot on a chariot/HA rush. Brennus will prefer to settle his expansion cities on hills - they will be hard to take out. Once he has GWs, you can just forget about attacking hilled cities with mounted units and no seige when they're defended by G2 (or better) GWs. :p If your rush stalls you'll be caught in a long and protracted war that'll kill your economy and won't get you much in return. If you're still going to rush, then chop and whip for all you're worth and expect to face GWs or spears. Just rushing out a chariot to pillage the iron before you have enough units for an assault will just cause him to spam archers.

And I agree with those who say that switching plans is a bad idea. To do a rush properly you need to commit to it completely. 1 city to claim your military resource, beeline the appropriate techs (BW, wheel, AH) and chop/whip with no restraint.

EDIT: Also, given the layout of the hills around his capital, you will not be able to attack Biberacte until turn 3 unless you're willing to attack across the water on turn 2 (bad idea). Expect 2 whipped defenders. The iron cannot be pillaged until turn 2. Expect spears and/or GWs to show up in another 10 turns or so. And hope that he doesn't settle another city on iron or copper.

Resumed play from the scouting point, and finished Masonry, then started Mathematics, while finishing a worker in the Capital and starting the Oracle as soon as it finished.

Once the horses were up and running I started spamming them for defense out of City 2. Brennus had his first axe up by 1770, so good thing we didn't rush!

I finished The Oracle in 1410, and am now 2 turns from Mathematics and will probably go for Construction in order to get Cats to go after Brennus.

Here's a screenshot of what our immediate area looks like at 1000BC. I am just about to finish City 2's forge, the Capitals is done and they are running an engineer. Almost ready to hook copper up, and seven turns from Construction, I think I'll tech CoL and then Currency after to rebuild the economy for after the war. But, I suck so tell me what you think. :)

http://i49.tinypic.com/20r946x.jpg

What tech did you get from the Oracle?

Have you not got sailing yet? It doesn't look like the copper city is connected to your trade route.

Chariots have a big edge over axe. Now you have to worry whether Brennus also gets to construction and those phants.

What tech did you get from the Oracle?
MC, I think, since he's building Forges.

In hindsight, early rush would not have worked. Waiting for cats is probably a good idea.

I played a shadow game using the strategy that I recommended earlier.

First spoiler simply lays out the strategy in general terms, no map or AI spoilers:

Take metal casting from the Oracle built in Nidaros. Chop out a forge and run an engineer for a 60-40 chance at an GE to bulb machinery. Tech to CS, build zerks and siege, knock heads. Make nice with the neighbors until then, with a small 4 city empire with virtually no military early on.


Second spoiler gives the end game result, no map or AI spoilers:

1504 conquest victory, 188930 score.



Third spoiler gives game details, with map and AI spoilers.

I settled 1W and started building a worker while teching Ag. Early build order was worker> WB> warrior> warrior> settler> worker> WB> settler> worker> warrior. Opening techs were Ag> mining> BW> wheel> myst> meditation> PH> pottery> AH.

In 2430BC Uppsala was founded 1E of the oasis to the north of the capital. Brennus founded buddhism, and we couldn't profitably settle closer to his cultural borders.

In 1900BC the Oracle was completed in Nidaros, taking MC as the free tech. A forge was immediately chopped out and an engineer was assigned. Teching continued through sailing> masonry> writing.

In 1590BC Haithabu was founded to grab the copper + gold spot on the east coast. A monument, granary, and library were built there, then the Moai statues were started. Alphabet was the next tech, and IW was traded from Brennus for it. Neither Augustus nor Darius had writing yet. Research continued through math> currency> CoL (confucianism founded in Haithabu).

In 1210BC the GLH was completed in Nidaros, and around that time a great prophet was born there (rats! :( ). In the first of many :smoke: moves, he was settled instead of saved for the shrine in Biberacte.:hammer2:

In 900BC the Colossus was completed in Nidaros.

In 470BC a GM was born in Nidaros. He was saved until monarchy could be traded for (330BC), and then used to partially bulb CS, which was done in 290BC,

HBR was acquired through trade in 170BC, and research on machinery was done in 80BC (ZERKS! :dance: ). Zerks were built everywhere, along with a few cats.

In 30AD construction was traded for after putting some turns of research into it, and engineering was started next. It completed in 400AD, and a few turns were put into feudalism so that it could be traded for in 500AD.

Up to this point there had been some inconsequential warring between Darius and Brennus, but that stopped once Darius adopted buddhism. Augustus had been an early adopter as well, so everyone was happy and our diplomatic relations with Brennus were friendly.

In 520AD I have a brain fart and realize that I've forgotten to switch to bureaucracy for the last 810 years. :smoke: I immediately revolt to it. :hammer2:

In 580AD, with a big pile o' zerks and trebs, we break the bad news to Brennus that he is being relieved of his empire due to rampant mismanagement. 2 cities fall in the first 2 turns with no losses (he doesn't have feudalism yet, so I only face GWs, axes, and archers).

In 610AD guilds is completed, followed by banking in 690AD. By 680AD I've captured 9 cities from the celts and haven't lost a zerk yet. A treb or 2 was sacrificed to the gods of war in a some hilled cities, but victory has been overwhelming. He's the only AI (that we know of) who has calendar, so in 695AD I take peace when he's down to 1 crap city on the north coast in return for calendar. I promptly build the MoM for uber-GAs. Augustus had joined the dogpile against the celts late in the war, and in yet another :smoke: move I bribed him out of the war with CS so that he wouldn't take a spice city that I coveted. Darius vassaled to him, and they both soon had maces. Not that it mattered.

In 730AD I DoWed both of them while Rome was again at war with the celts. I quickly took 1 city from the Persians and 2 from the Romans, but when Auggie showed up with a big stack of HAs and cats just as I was about to take a second city from him I finished capturing the city and took peace. This was yet another :smoke: move - I should have left 1 of his units alive in the city so he would move his stack into it. :hammer2: Not my smartest game.

In 800AD I finished research on philosophy, found taoism (slow tech pace, eh?)

In 805AD the romans build the AP, but OFC I get control with my huge empire:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn76/huerfanista/EQMChallenger%201/Civ4ScreenShot0048.jpg

In 865AD paper is done, and in 910AD the romans finally finish off the hapless celts.

Darius breaks away from the Romans, sensing a sinking ship. They're right, OFC, but it won't help them. In 925AD I declare on Rome with a reinforced stack of zerks, knights, and trebs, and lay waste to their empire. In 995AD I finally get a GP and build the Mahabodhi shrine. The economic effects are dramatic. I leave Rome with 1 crappy city in return for aesthetics in 1065AD. Optics was completed in 945AD, PP in 1005AD, RepParts in 1105AD, literature in 1115AD.

I declare on Persia in 1130AD. Nationalism is completed in1205AD and the Taj is started in Nidaros. In 1250AD the Persian civilization is destroyed, and in 1260AD I declare on the romans. I take their 2 cities in1285AD, and Augustus sleeps with the fishes.

Education is done in 1290AD, the Taj is completed in in 1345AD, followed by economics in 1360AD (free GM). Galleys had been sent out earlier, meeting Bismark and Hannibal. Suryavarman, it seems, had been the victim of a barbarian uprising long ago. I get OB with both the germans and carthaginians.

In 1362AD I take astronomy as the free tech from liberalism. In 1366AD I prove the world is round, and our already speedy navy becomes even faster.

I'll summarize the tech order that followed: GP> rifling> constitution> democracy> music> MilTrad> chemistry> steel> SciMeth> communism. I built both the SoL and the Kremlin. The GM was sent on a TM to Carthage, netting a whopping 7500:gold: :eek:

Galleons are built everywhere, along with cavalry and a few rifles. Our rather large stack of CR3+ zerks are upgraded to rifles, and trebs become cannon. In 1480AD were ready to put the other continent under new management:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn76/huerfanista/EQMChallenger%201/Civ4ScreenShot0049.jpg

This quickly results in:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn76/huerfanista/EQMChallenger%201/Civ4ScreenShot0050.jpg

Followed by:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn76/huerfanista/EQMChallenger%201/Civ4ScreenShot0051.jpg

Resulting in:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn76/huerfanista/EQMChallenger%201/Civ4ScreenShot0052.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn76/huerfanista/EQMChallenger%201/Civ4ScreenShot0053.jpg

Zerks make nice riflemen:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn76/huerfanista/EQMChallenger%201/Civ4ScreenShot0054.jpg

I built a couple of wonders in the beginning, captured a bunch in the middle, and built a bunch at the end:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn76/huerfanista/EQMChallenger%201/Civ4ScreenShot0060.jpg

Power:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn76/huerfanista/EQMChallenger%201/Civ4ScreenShot0061.jpg

GNP:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn76/huerfanista/EQMChallenger%201/Civ4ScreenShot0062.jpg

Manufacturing:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn76/huerfanista/EQMChallenger%201/Civ4ScreenShot0063.jpg

Cities:
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn76/huerfanista/EQMChallenger%201/Civ4ScreenShot0056.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn76/huerfanista/EQMChallenger%201/Civ4ScreenShot0057.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn76/huerfanista/EQMChallenger%201/Civ4ScreenShot0059.jpg
http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn76/huerfanista/EQMChallenger%201/Civ4ScreenShot0058.jpg

Darius and Augustus got screwed by their start locations and surrounding land. Our start was good, but we really only had 1 decent city site other than the capital. But you really don't have to knock yourself out on an early rush to win big. I let Brennus build my empire for me while I concentrated on getting the very nice Viking UU up and running early enough to be unstoppable. I left the AIs in the dust with the GLH/Colossus combo, which is very strong for a financial civ. Some good riverside cottages were a big help as well, and a city near the marble worked those cottages early on so that Nidaros was free to do other things.

What tech did you get from the Oracle?

Have you not got sailing yet? It doesn't look like the copper city is connected to your trade route.

No, I haven't, next tech on the list, so it'll be in by the time the copper is up.

Tried a quick rush from the 1910ish save. No problems. Got the capitol, pillaged the iron, and killed both Brennus' axemen for the cost of 3 chariots. He's down to just 2 archers now and can't get more than 1 quickly. Used the settler to settle on top of phants, fastest way to raise the happy cap, cows and bananas will come online soon enough. The economy won't crash too hard. Maybe the Oracle will get built or not. Don't really care. HBR is now probably enough to clear the land mass, Epults in reserve. Gold and the holy city is nice too.

It kind of hurts seeing how bad I really am. :)

Tried a quick rush from the 1910ish save. No problems. Got the capitol, pillaged the iron, and killed both Brennus' axemen for the cost of 3 chariots. He's down to just 2 archers now and can't get more than 1 quickly. Used the settler to settle on top of phants, fastest way to raise the happy cap, cows and bananas will come online soon enough. The economy won't crash too hard. Maybe the Oracle will get built or not. Don't really care. HBR is now probably enough to clear the land mass, Epults in reserve. Gold and the holy city is nice too.

I'm glad you showed those "it's too late, he has iron!" naysayers when it's a marathon prince game.
On immortal, they always have iron and maybe a spear by the time you attack, and you don't have the double unit marathon bonus.

Did you try whipping chariots? You lose some overflow, but you should get 2 for 1 on marathon.

I really am kind of lost for how *I* should proceed from this point, though. :)

You wasting too many hammers on buildings. Forges take a long, long time before they are a net positive in hammers. Get more land, particularly the pig/hills city. You could say you're running almost 100% research ... or you could say that by 1000 BC you're only producing 29 beakers per turn.

You don't go granary first? Libraries before them? Even if you get construction, you still need units to kill the defenders, which means axes/horses.

Your not bad, just need nerves.
Yes, whipped chariots. AI won't whip until threatened by which time it's too late. At the moment I'm screwing around until 1 AD. It's now 380 BC and Persepolis, with the Great Lighthouse, has just fallen to HAs and chariots. Moved capitol to Brennus' capitol oracle'd calender, teched ironworking, sailing, HBR, currency, CoL in some order. Picked up a barb city and worker in the jungle.

On a sour note my crabs got pillaged by a barb galley so worked cottages instead. (Aw shucks. LoL)

Edit:
Played to 90 BC when Augustus died. Axed his iron on the go, he whipped cats after that. None lived long enough. Ran him over with HAs. Naturally Persepolis' crabs got pillaged by a barb galley. Oh well, own the land mass. Need to get ready for work.

Didn't have the chance to play a turn tonight because of work problems, but will be playing after work tonight. Looking for ideas based on the current information as to how we should proceed from this point, especially from you more advanced players as I can tell from reading a touch of the shadow game without the spoilers that I am far from optimal and need work. :)

Thanks for being still interested, if you are! :)

There are lots of ways to play the game. Chariot rushes are perfectly viable, but you need to commit to them from the start. You need to decide where to go from here. Do you want to go for early war (axes/cats), or later war (zerks/cats/trebs)? An early war means no chasing the GLH/Colossus/GLib - you should be building axes everywhere right now, followed by cats. You will be in big trouble if Brennus gets HBR/contruction for WEs. If you're going for later war, you should be building the GLH and colossus in Nidaros, and settling another city near the marble to work cottages for the capital. Later war is certainly viable, and will be much easier than a cats/axes war, but you're already deviating from that path. Construction is easily traded for later, CS and machinery are the big priority. Colossus will be a huge benefit in your copper city with 4:commerce: coast tiles. But make your decision now, don't waffle between and early/later war (like chasing for the GLib). I can't open your save now, but if you have stable relations with Brennus (i.e., same religion) you can certainly avoid military until you have zerks. But you're already waffling: you went for an early zerk startegy (oralce MC, bulb machinery) and then decided that maybe you should chariot rush, and then decided maybe axes/cats war. As a result, you're wasting :science: by continually switching startegies. Pick one and stick to it! If you're going for a zerk war, you should have gone math> currency> CoL> CS after writing while waiting for a GE to pop (hopefully). If you're not going that route, then start building axes everywhere, followed by cats. Be ruthless in chopping and whipping, and don't go to war with a half-assed army. A dozen axes and the same number of cats will be needed. Scout Brennus out carefully before hand, and map out your lines of attack. Know where his strategic resources are and be prepared to pillage them ASAP. GWs in hill cities will be a bear, so expect losses. Good luck. Personally, I'd go for the later war. GLH/Colossus can get you a big tech lead (4 TRs - with currency - in 3 coastal cities, all of them foreign, and 4:commerce: coast), and even if you have bad luck in popping a GP instead of a GE you can still get zerks in the BCs. They will steamroll everything in their path, including longbows.

Look forward to seeing your game progress. It's still early in your game.

Played out my game mainly because I have never staged an intercontinental invasion with Zerks. This account may be a bit boring as domination games sometimes aren't too exciting.

Recap at 1 AD

Rome has recently fallen to the only epult built. HAs were so fast it barely made it to the last city in time.
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/6331/fallofromejpg.jpg (http://img541.imageshack.us/i/fallofromejpg.jpg/)

Economy is at 10 % and the continent has to be filled up. Spam settlers and build granaries, courthouses and lighthouses. A fleet has to be built and astro will be accessed via the liberalism bulbing path. Music and drama will be picked up at some point. Great Library will be the second and last wonder built. (Darius donated the GLH and Ceasar, the mids.) Build zerks, lots of zerks. Eventually only wealth will be built and science turned off.
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/3209/gameplanjpg.jpg (http://img541.imageshack.us/i/gameplanjpg.jpg/)


The Dogs of War.

The primary target is Surry, then Biz. An inland stack is ready to move on Surry. At sea 17 galleons are full. Around 45 zerks are on board and enough other stuff to fill 17 galleons. (No good screenshot for this. Minimap does show a lot of purple dots along both coasts of the continent.
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/5849/eveofwar1jpg.jpg (http://img541.imageshack.us/i/eveofwar1jpg.jpg/)

Simultaneous DoW Surry and Biz. Surry is very weak but Biz has longbows, but enough land for domination. 7 cities are taken on the opening salvo. The ones building culture.
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/6883/warjpg.jpg (http://img541.imageshack.us/i/warjpg.jpg/)

Surry is dead in 880 AD. Biz is let off the hook in 915 AD.
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/6582/peacejpg.jpg (http://img541.imageshack.us/i/peacejpg.jpg/)

3 cities are settled back home for the domination win. (920 AD, ~206k.)
http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/9360/domjpg.jpg (http://img541.imageshack.us/i/domjpg.jpg/)


Expenses were Brutal

http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/7195/expensesjpg.jpg (http://img541.imageshack.us/i/expensesjpg.jpg/)