View Full Version : Shacknews E3 Preview


V. Soma
Jun 23, 2010, 01:32 AM
A nice piece (http://www.shacknews.com/onearticle.x/64438) from Shacknews.

I quote some pharagraphs:

"Cultural Victory is achieved by completing the Utopia Project, which is unlocked after completing 6 of 10 policy trees, which offer bonuses to different game systems and use culture as currency.
These policies serve to replace many systems not making a formal return from Civilization IV, namely the civics and religion systems. It is possible the espionage will also make a return here, but I was not able to freely browse all of the policies. Policies are broken down into 8 categories representing different ways of governing. Some will be incompatible with others, for example, "Freedom" and "Tyranny." Culture, which is generated by cities, will be used to purchase policies. One early policy, for example, grants a 33% boost in production for Wonders."


"players can now install a puppet government. By doing so, less unhappiness will be generated, but the player cannot control the city at all. You will gain gold, culture, and research, but the city will act upon its own best interest. If you're at war and are cranking units out for the war effort, this puppet city could be working on a granary if it needs it for its own development."

"On the infrastructure side of things, Civ V will bring custom maps and scenarios directly into the game with the Mod Repository. Now, content creators will have their work visible within the game and players can install new mods with a single click. This should help get mods out to the community at large without relying on external websites. Since Civilization V uses Steamworks, it will have access to your Steam friends list for game invites and more. On matchmaking, Firaxis is currently looking into whether or not this will be added, but it definitely won't be in by release. "

CommanderZ
Jun 23, 2010, 01:53 AM
What exactly do they mean by matchmaking here? Some sort of automatic system that picks a game for you? Thanks, not interested, good old server list will do fine. I encountered these systems in a few games lately and it rarely picks a game I would really like to play.

Thyrwyn
Jun 23, 2010, 02:24 AM
matchmaking helps you find available MP games - it doesn't pick the game for you.

Krikkitone
Jun 23, 2010, 02:57 AM
So 10 Trees but 8 Groups of Trees?

So...
7 groups have 1 Tree and 1 Group has 3 Trees... 4-6 "Groups" are necessary to reach Utopia
OR
6 Groups have 1 Tree and 2 Groups have 2 Trees.. 4-6 Groups are necessary to Reach Utopia UNLESS 2 the two 'large' groups are incompatible. (in which case you need at least 5 groups to Reach Utopia)

V. Soma
Jun 23, 2010, 03:10 AM
So 10 Trees but 8 Groups of Trees?

So...
7 groups have 1 Tree and 1 Group has 3 Trees... 4-6 "Groups" are necessary to reach Utopia
OR
6 Groups have 1 Tree and 2 Groups have 2 Trees.. 4-6 Groups are necessary to Reach Utopia UNLESS 2 the two 'large' groups are incompatible. (in which case you need at least 5 groups to Reach Utopia)

I think the article is misleading in wording, I think it wants to refer to the possibly 8 icons under the 10 different policies - whatever they mean...

CommanderZ
Jun 23, 2010, 03:22 AM
matchmaking helps you find available MP games - it doesn't pick the game for you.

I hope not, because as they said, matchmaking won't be ready out of the box. So you wouldn't be able to find MP games...?

Thyrwyn
Jun 23, 2010, 03:25 AM
You'll just have to look for, and arrange them, on your own.

Shurdus
Jun 23, 2010, 03:25 AM
So 10 Trees but 8 Groups of Trees?

So...
7 groups have 1 Tree and 1 Group has 3 Trees... 4-6 "Groups" are necessary to reach Utopia
OR
6 Groups have 1 Tree and 2 Groups have 2 Trees.. 4-6 Groups are necessary to Reach Utopia UNLESS 2 the two 'large' groups are incompatible. (in which case you need at least 5 groups to Reach Utopia)
Meh, just do not even try to work things out like that. the wording is probably off anyway, and even if it is spot on you will probably still visualize things differently anyway. Besides, this is just a side issue of little value.

kaltorak
Jun 23, 2010, 03:57 AM
Maybe just each tree has policies of different categories. So there are 10 trees with policies. And each policy belongs to a category unrelated to the tree.

Ahriman
Jun 23, 2010, 06:13 AM
10 trees and 8 groups of trees would fit well with the possibility that Freedom/Autocracy and Piety/Rationalism are mutually exclusive trees.

Aramel
Jun 23, 2010, 07:09 AM
This is not the first time that a news outlet misidentified the number of social policy trees. I think it is far more likely they are just wrong than that there is some bizarre system of 8 subgroups we have never heard about until now.

Ahriman
Jun 23, 2010, 07:17 AM
We *have* heard from people who saw the E3 demo that these trees are mutually exclusive.

Trias
Jun 23, 2010, 07:21 AM
10 trees and 8 groups of trees would fit well with the possibility that Freedom/Autocracy and Piety/Rationalism are mutually exclusive trees.
I would be disappointed if "freedom" and "autocracy" would be mutually exclusive, since that is utter non-sense (and smells like American propaganda from the cold war equating democracy with freedom). There should be some room for Enlightened Despotism or constitutional monarchy.

Ahriman
Jun 23, 2010, 07:52 AM
I would be disappointed if they were not exclusive.

See these threads, we don't need another one:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=368648
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=368842

Note that there seem to be separate Liberty and Freedom trees (unclear what the difference is) and that it is impossible to have both Despotism and Democracy.

GoodSarmatian
Jun 23, 2010, 08:51 AM
Note that there seem to be separate Liberty and Freedom trees (unclear what the difference is) and that it is impossible to have both Despotism and Democracy.

Civil liberties vs political freedoms ?
In Athens people would vote if someone in the city was to be executed or exiled, while China today is on it's way to grant the citizens more and more rights and establish rule of law while still remaining a one-party state.

Commander Bello
Jun 23, 2010, 09:31 AM
"On the infrastructure side of things, Civ V will bring custom maps and scenarios directly into the game with the Mod Repository. Now, content creators will have their work visible within the game and players can install new mods with a single click. This should help get mods out to the community at large without relying on external websites. Since Civilization V uses Steamworks, it will have access to your Steam friends list for game invites and more. On matchmaking, Firaxis is currently looking into whether or not this will be added, but it definitely won't be in by release. "

Two important sentences.

First, fanmade sites like CivFanatics shall be of less importance. :rolleyes:
In other words: Independantly run sites, where people are more likely to articulate criticism, where independant communities have grown in the past, shall suffer.
Great idea...

Second, the incorporation of Steamworks shall not help mp games as much as expected and advertized by the Steam Sunshine Squad.
Since this is not a very logical move of the developers (I mean, if Steam really offers such things in an easy way, why aren't they making use of it????), to me this seems to be a strong indication of what some of the first DLCs will be: "You want to have the chance to get matchmaking? Glad to offer it to you for only $4.99 (if you're US citizen) or $7.99 (rest of the world) or $9.99 (special offer for Down Under).

Zhahz
Jun 23, 2010, 10:01 AM
First, fanmade sites like CivFanatics shall be of less importance
...for distribution of mods. IMO that's probably not so bad since it's less bandwidth and management for the sites. The discussion/creation mod forums will retain their importance as would the rest of the site function. I also think most of us would rather communicate thru sites like this than in IMs/small chats thru something like steam, at least for nonpersonal game stuff.

Second, the incorporation of Steamworks shall not help mp games as much as expected and advertized by the Steam Sunshine Squad.

Does seem odd when in one recent video they're talking about how MP is core to the civ experience (really...since when...). I have to wonder how many civvers actually do MP. I'm guessing it's a small number since MP is generally a low priority for them.

There are some nice videos out recently but they're generally rehashing the same tidbits. It'll be nice when some decent and concrete info comes out, or better yet some gameplay examples like with Civ IV.
I don't MP civ and never will, so meh, who cares?

One thing to keep in mind is that Steam and Steamworks are two completely different things. I'm not a fan of Steam but Steamworks does give them a lot of potential to do things that might appeal greatly to the MP crowd (along with other fluff some folks might like). So, even if they're not going full feature with it immediately the potential is there for patching/expansion with less dev hassle for them down the road.

Aramel
Jun 23, 2010, 10:08 AM
Two important sentences.

First, fanmade sites like CivFanatics shall be of less importance. :rolleyes:
In other words: Independantly run sites, where people are more likely to articulate criticism, where independant communities have grown in the past, shall suffer.
Great idea...

Second, the incorporation of Steamworks shall not help mp games as much as expected and advertized by the Steam Sunshine Squad.
Since this is not a very logical move of the developers (I mean, if Steam really offers such things in an easy way, why aren't they making use of it????), to me this seems to be a strong indication of what some of the first DLCs will be: "You want to have the chance to get matchmaking? Glad to offer it to you for only $4.99 (if you're US citizen) or $7.99 (rest of the world) or $9.99 (special offer for Down Under).

Thank you for such a reasonable and well thought out post, sir. You give credit to this entire forum.

Commander Bello
Jun 23, 2010, 10:11 AM
Thank you for such a reasonable and well thought out post, sir. You give credit to this entire forum.

I know and you're welcome. :)

CanuckSoldier
Jun 23, 2010, 10:14 AM
What exactly do they mean by matchmaking here? Some sort of automatic system that picks a game for you? Thanks, not interested, good old server list will do fine. I encountered these systems in a few games lately and it rarely picks a game I would really like to play.

Yes this is a very vague statement by the writer, and he doesn't state his source for any of this info.

I'm hoping 2K Greg can clarify this statement. As no matchmaking can mean anything from no auto-matchmaking ala many console games, to a complete lack of time to integrate the entire Steamworks backend into the game. Meaning we would be back to the Civ2 MGE days of DirectIP only. If it is indeed actually going ship crippled like that it would be nice to know if we are going to have a chat lobby to organize our direct IP games with or if we are really being left to use our ingenuity........

2K Greg????


CS

2K Greg
Jun 23, 2010, 01:17 PM
Donít worry guys; Civ V at release will have excellent multiplayer support, including stuff you would expect from Steamworks like a server browser and Steam Friends support.

More details about multiplayer and the aforementioned matchmaking will come in the next few weeks, but for now you can rest assured that youíll be able to play multiplayer at release with ease.

CanuckSoldier
Jun 23, 2010, 02:27 PM
That's great Greg, maybe you can't answer this now, but is part of that great support, a chat lobby? I'm asking since my research indicates that Steamworks is most definitely better at p2p matchmaking than Gamespy is, but Steamworks doesn't seem to have any history(outside L4D a Valve title) of hosting lobbies, all Steamworks games have lobbies supplied by the Producer/Developer, and not by Steam directly.

CS

Schuesseled
Jun 23, 2010, 02:55 PM
matchmaking helps you find available MP games - it doesn't pick the game for you.

no thats exaclty what it does. Server lists are simply better.

CanuckSoldier
Jun 23, 2010, 08:49 PM
no thats exaclty what it does. Server lists are simply better.

Well that depends on your definition of Matchmaking, it is a fairly vague term that in the most general sense only refers to the system that connects p2p players together in a game. How is does that from game to game varies widely.

I can understand that if you have a console background that you would think that matchmaking=auto matchmaking, but in the PC world it is not that specific. Gamespy matchmaking for instance that was used for Civ3 and Civ4 provided a games list, chat lobby and under the hood provided the code to connect the players togther when the game launched.

I expect that Steamworks will fill all those functions as well only do a better and more stable job of it.

CS

CanuckSoldier
Jun 23, 2010, 08:51 PM
no thats exaclty what it does. Server lists are simply better.

And just to be accurate, p2p games don't have "dedicated servers" we just have hosted games, that are displayed in the games list.

CS

Thyrwyn
Jun 23, 2010, 09:59 PM
1) Matchmaking=/=Multiplayer (https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/api); Matchmaking has more to do with game servers. Civ has never required dedicated servers to play an MP game, so they have no need for matchmaking. This is a non-issue.

2) They have already announced that you will be able to access fan sites from within the game as well. This should gain the fan sites more exposure, not less.

3) The fan sites represent a (small) fraction of civ players. It follows then, that most civvers have less access to mods and the modding community at large. Since mods will be able to be hosted by Steam (but, as they have also said, are not required to be), more civvers will learn about and have access to them. For modders, that should be fantastic news, as they will be able to reach a broader audience and gain more exposure. But, maybe I'm missing something :)

CanuckSoldier
Jun 23, 2010, 10:38 PM
1) Matchmaking=/=Multiplayer (https://partner.steamgames.com/documentation/api); Matchmaking has more to do with game servers. Civ has never required dedicated servers to play an MP game, so they have no need for matchmaking. This is a non-issue.

2) They have already announced that you will be able to access fan sites from within the game as well. This should gain the fan sites more exposure, not less.

3) The fan sites represent a (small) fraction of civ players. It follows then, that most civvers have less access to mods and the modding community at large. Since mods will be able to be hosted by Steam (but, as they have also said, are not required to be), more civvers will learn about and have access to them. For modders, that should be fantastic news, as they will be able to reach a broader audience and gain more exposure. But, maybe I'm missing something :)

Your definition of matchmaking is a little narrow, even that page you linked to has a link to "p2p matchmaking" in Steam, confirming that matchmaking is not something limited to server based games but applies to p2p games as well.

CS

Thyrwyn
Jun 23, 2010, 11:09 PM
Do note that I did say "...more to do with servers...".

Multi-player does not require matchmaking, nor does not having match-making make multi-player more difficult. The only benefit matchmaking would offer (my understanding, anyway) for p2p multi-player, would be:

"Player A" could start a game without having arranged any other players; that game would then show up in a list of open, running games. I do not know if the "host" can refuse players or not. Note that matchmaking requires the game to be already started before it will show up on the list.

I fail to see how this benefits Civ style multi-player, since there are so many potential variations in settings, type of game, and style of play

wolf_brother
Jun 23, 2010, 11:24 PM
So wait... I'll download mods from Steam now?

Would this mean that Firaxis/2kgames/Steam would have to approve the mods somehow before they could be downloaded? Would you only be able to download mods from Steam? This sounds like a step in a very bad direction.. :sad:

Thyrwyn
Jun 23, 2010, 11:33 PM
So wait... I'll download mods from Steam now?

Would this mean that Firaxis/2kgames/Steam would have to approve the mods somehow before they could be downloaded? Would you only be able to download mods from Steam?You CAN download mods from Steam, but CFC and other fan sites will still be able to ALSO host mods.

CanuckSoldier
Jun 23, 2010, 11:46 PM
Do note that I did say "...more to do with servers...".

Multi-player does not require matchmaking, nor does not having match-making make multi-player more difficult. The only benefit matchmaking would offer (my understanding, anyway) for p2p multi-player, would be:

"Player A" could start a game without having arranged any other players; that game would then show up in a list of open, running games. I do not know if the "host" can refuse players or not. Note that matchmaking requires the game to be already started before it will show up on the list.

I fail to see how this benefits Civ style multi-player, since there are so many potential variations in settings, type of game, and style of play

Well I think we are arguing over concepts here. Matchmaking to me is the engine that powers( the Steamworks backend servers in this case) MP. So unless we are going to go back to the Civ2MGE days of only DirectIP then there is matchmaking going on. Matchmaking IMHO is not what you see in the User interface, that is just options(like auto-matchmaking, games lists etc) that the developers chose or not to use. So Server-client or P2P, matchmaking code is still a required part of the game.

And yes Mods are available via the Community Hub, they are not locked into using just that. The game will no doubt allow players to install mods from any source. But as far as the hub goes I do think we will see 2K excerise some control over what gets approved or not on that hub. They are leagally responsible for any and all content they allow to use it, so it is not unreasonable to expect them to have some standards. So that the hub doesn't violate the games ESRB rating.

And just to be accurate they have not actually stated that Steam will host the hub, though I'm sure Steam would be capable of it.

CS

Thyrwyn
Jun 24, 2010, 12:02 AM
I am using the Steamworks definition of Matchmaking, based on the API. It is the process/ability to show clients that are open and running. It does not show a list of other players that are looking for a game - only servers/peers that have an open, active game.

The fact that that specific part of the Steamworks API is not included in CIv V at release says nothing about about multi-player. There is a separate part of the API for p2p:

Peer-to-peer networking
header: ISteamNetworking.h

The Steam networking API is a simple set of functions to let the game send data directly between two Steam users. To make connections from behind home NAT's, it uses the libjingle NAT-punching library or, if no direct connection can be made, through the Steam relay servers.Even so - Firaxis could have used there ownp2p protocols.

What we know:
1) they have said that CIv V will have "excellent MPsupport".
2) Steamworks' Matchmaking will not be included at release.

The 2nd statement in no way invalidates the 1st.

Commander Bello
Jun 24, 2010, 06:36 AM
You CAN download mods from Steam, but CFC and other fan sites will still be able to ALSO host mods.

To the best of my knowledge, we do not have tangible information about the way in which the advertised functionality of "adding mods to your game by one mouse click" will work.
Therefore, it seems to be a viable assumption that certain patterns have to be followed for modders to make their mods compliant with Steam servers (under the assumption that it will be Steam servers which are holding the mods).

Whether such assumedly needed patterns will conflict with downloading a mod from other than Steam sources, at the moment seems to be unknown.

Therefore, yes, other sites may hold mods, too. If you will be able to make use of such mods then, is not yet clear. Neither it is clear, whether they may easily fit into the "mod repository" and whether there are any checks about the structure and the sources, from which such a modification originates.

cccv
Jun 24, 2010, 09:39 AM
I would be disappointed if "freedom" and "autocracy" would be mutually exclusive, since that is utter non-sense (and smells like American propaganda from the cold war equating democracy with freedom). There should be some room for Enlightened Despotism or constitutional monarchy.

The odd thing is that there's a freedom tree and a liberty tree, so we don't know yet just how they'll be semantically differentiated. Maybe the fact the liberty and autocracy aren't mutually exclusive will end up making you happy.

Now I'd like to know what the heck they mean by "8 subgroups."

As for matchmaking, I'm hoping that means they'll set me up on dates with women who enjoy the civ series.

The_J
Jun 24, 2010, 11:15 AM
Whether such assumedly needed patterns will conflict with downloading a mod from other than Steam sources, at the moment seems to be unknown.


They've said it here (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/civilization-v-interview?page=4) that you will be able to download mods from other sources.
At this point, i believe them.

Commander Bello
Jun 24, 2010, 04:16 PM
They've said it here (http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/civilization-v-interview?page=4) that you will be able to download mods from other sources.
At this point, i believe them.

Thanks for pointing me to that source.
I read things like:
Jon Shafer: We're going to have a utility that packages up the mods you make, too. In Civ IV, there were hundreds of files, tons of directories, and you toss in a readme, and hope people read it, and don't install the mod into their system directory. This utility puts it all into one file that you can distrubute, and unbundle with Civ at the other end.
This sounds like nice and easy doing, no doubt.

And the very next sentence then reads:
Eurogamer: Is the submission to Firaxis for distribution a moderated process?

Dennis Shirk: We're still working through the system that'll be used for moderation. For the user, it'll be invisible - they'll submit, and it'll show up in the directory.

To me, this seems very much like the Steam-hosted mods will be checked and "moderated".

And this very much reminds me - maybe less in technical terms, but in general - of my statement:
Originally Posted by Commander Bello
Whether such assumedly needed patterns will conflict with downloading a mod from other than Steam sources, at the moment seems to be unknown.

Still, the criteria which differentiate Firaxis-accepted and Steam-based mods from those available at locations as CivFanatics are unclear to me.

And let's be honest: a mod being available at Steam will have some kind of "official" acknowledgement. On which this acknowledgement will be based, is unknown yet.
Will it be the "famous name" of a well-known modder?
Will it be the way in which he has dealt with Firaxis' ideas in the past?
Will it be any willingness to have Firaxis subtly change the modification?

All unknown.

All I can say is "wait and see".
We have had so many statements of developers in the past, which later on have not become true, that I for my person prefer to stay sceptical until proven wrong.

Pragmatic
Jun 24, 2010, 05:32 PM
Two important sentences.

First, fanmade sites like CivFanatics shall be of less importance. :rolleyes:
In other words: Independantly run sites, where people are more likely to articulate criticism, where independant communities have grown in the past, shall suffer.
Great idea...

In general, websites like CivFanatics rarely account for more than a small minority of players. (At least, that is my impression.)

CanuckSoldier
Jun 24, 2010, 07:47 PM
In general, websites like CivFanatics rarely account for more than a small minority of players. (At least, that is my impression.)

Well I'm pretty sure that collectively that CFC, Apolyton, CivPlayers, WePlayCiv, Realms Beyond, CGN etc, account for the vast majority of players that visit the internet looking for info on their favourite game.....

Neither one of us can provide statistics, but Civers, as strategy game players are generally more intellectual than other genres of gamers and I'm sure as such that most have a regular internet connection. If not to play MP, they definitely want to share their addiction experinces with other players.

CS

Tylerryan79
Jun 24, 2010, 08:12 PM
Sorry to get off topic, but since moddingh is being discussed I will ask this here, as I've asked in the Steam Faq thread, but I don't see it getting answered anytime soon. I'm asking for anyone best guess also.

Do we know if mods will be able to be played in offline mode? Or will we be able to switch between mods at will in offline mode. Will we be able to download a mod from CFC then later install and play it, while in offline mode? Do mods interacted or change the game in a way steam may think you've changed the game files, therefore kicking you out of offline mode?

My last question I assume that the way mods are done is that steam doesn't verify the files where mods are stored, am I correct? It would seem if steam did, then it would think you've tampered with the game and wouldn't let you play. I know nothing about mods so correct me if Im wrong.

Ahriman
Jun 25, 2010, 06:55 AM
Once you've downloaded a mod, you've downloaded a mod. Of course you'll still be able to play it offline.

And Steam isn't going to stop you from playing or installing a mod.

Commander Bello
Jun 25, 2010, 06:56 AM
Wait and see.

2K Greg
Jun 25, 2010, 11:29 AM
Once you've downloaded a mod, you've downloaded a mod. Of course you'll still be able to play it offline.

And Steam isn't going to stop you from playing or installing a mod.

This is correct