RBE5 - The Sea is a Harsh Mistress (PTW) [Archive]

Arathorn

Nov 19, 2002, 08:28 AM

Agreed on moving red dot one SE. I would also leave light dot where it is and still build a city on the hills by the gold mountains. We're gonna be commerce poor for quite a while and being able to work an extra gold mountain is worth 3 gpt under despotism, 4 gpt roaded under despotism and 5 gpt roaded under any other govt. A city on the hills won't have to steal squares to be very useful and we're gonna need every cent we can squeeze out of this land.

I suggest no military at all until we're ready to start building up for an assault on Arabia -- two scouts and our cities can keep the barbs away. We might want to "squeeze in" a barracks build or two, however.

As for an assault, here are some of my battle experiences in PTW:

Game 1:
Assaulted Iroquois with a horsemen stack in the ancient ages. First city I took was their capital. Defended by 6 spearmen (not too unusual to see a capital well-defended). Second city I took was defended by 5 spearmen and was NOT their new capital. Third city defended by 4 spearmen. Fourth city, I never got. I killed 5 spearmen and a warrior in there but they reinforced before I did. That was on emperor.

I fought more in the emperor game (a lot more actually) but was either fighting as part of a team and so couldn't get a feel for the actual fighting power of the opponent or was so far ahead that it didn't matter.

Game 2:
Allied against America during my ancient age. Took 3 cities, defended by 2 pikes/1 spear, 3 pikes, and 1 musket/2 pikes/1 spear/1 warrior (no capital).
Allied against America early in my middle age. Took 4 cities, defended by 1 musket/3 spears, 2 muskets/1 longbow, 6 muskets (capital), and 1 cavalry (recently captured).
Both of these times, I entered after most of the American offensive might had been spent elsewhere. I also know that some of their cities on the other front were defended by 5+ units (I got to see some of the battles occurring).
This was on deity (still going, but I just nationalism sling-shotted, along with a cheating the cheater to get myself into a very good situation).

I think we can expect to see at least 4 units defending each Arabian city, with 6 likely in their capital. My intuition says that 9-10 vet archers will give us a good chance of success against one city with 4 regular spearmen. That means 5 boatloads, plus another boatload for spears. For one city.

We might be better off questing for other lands (suicide galleys *20) and playing the trader role (sell at monopoly prices on both ends). 10 ships for an assault + 11 units @20 shields each is 520 shields. That would give us 17 ships, which might well do more good than even a successful assault.

As for the Great Lighthouse, anybody have pre-build suggestions? I have noticed (sample size 2) that the AI is a bit less aggressive about ancient wonders, so we might snag it, if we plan very carefully, but it's also very possible it will be built before we get the tech for it. We're about 90 turns out from map-making. If we had some prebuild in Trondheim, we'd need to start it in (90 - 300/9) 57 turns, assuming Trondheim is up to full size and cranking 9 spt. Maybe we can get Masonry from Abu by that time. But, that's an awfully big gamble.

Dunno, but I do like the initial dot-map (with the one addition and one change suggested above). DEFINITELY an interesting start.

Arathorn

Charis

Nov 19, 2002, 09:08 AM

Wow you've seen some nasty defense - were you playing "Elimination" mode or what??

The three PtW games I've seen, ancient era anyway, showed no such special defense. I only saw the 'usual' two defender for size 1-6, three for 7-12, with at best one more in the capital. These were on emperor. Dataset is too small to tell, but if the AI likes 4-6 defenders that would make a *huge* difference in the game.

In every case I was seeing 'regulars' unless there had been barb activity in the area to promote them.

As far as archers needed to take a city, I would say around 4 vets to take 2 regs, or 7-8 vets to take 4 regs. Nine would be overkill unless they had a rax or vets. But that's not strictly for 'one' city, as you'll have 5 survivors to go for the next one.

As for archers becoming guerillas - are you sure? I read that as well, but in game, could NOT upgrade Longbows to Med.Inf. Nor have I seen this in any game or Firaxis documentation, just as a rumor. (If no upgrade path, Med.Inf truly do make Longbows obsolete unless you're stuck with no iron)

For current plans, less units and more infrastructure now does sound good, until we are getting ready to invade. Two barracks for sure - we don't want to load transport with regulars! By the time we get zerkers I would think four cities with rax and decent shield production.

While going to be trade masters is a viable route (maybe even the smart route?!) I must say that playing RBD9 and seeing invasions postponed one after the other, and then winning a non-military victory, was HIGHLY dissatisfying for "Vikings". My own druthers (and take just as that) would be a bloodthristy domination game where the *bulk* of the action was with berzerkers and amphib invasions, slaughtering several civs before they even reached muskets. :hammer:

That also means owning the seas, and wiping any 'colony' not on a foes mainland whenever we sea such insolence.
Still, exploration and a suicide galley are good, for making contacts and perhaps being sole middlemen for techs and trades.

Charis

Arathorn

Nov 19, 2002, 09:49 AM

Well, my dataset is also too small to consider definitive. I was playing with the standard set of win conditions, so it's not that which is influencing things.

At the very least, I think we must be leery.

Of course, we don't have to make any decisions for the next 40 turns other than how to most quickly colonize our island and get it productive. And, in that time, things may change to change our mind.

As for upgrade paths, I *believe* (which means that I've seen reasonably convincing testimonies but have not verified) that the upgrade paths are:
archer -> longbow -> guerilla
warrior -> swordsman -> medieval infantry -> guerilla
berserk -> guerilla (?)
with the exact details of how they implement that unknown. The last is the one I feel least comfortable with.

What's your take on the city on a hill?

Arathorn

JaxomCA

Nov 19, 2002, 10:16 AM

Archer upgrade to longbow upgrade to guerilla
Warrior upgrade to swordsman upgrade to med. inf. upgrade to guerilla. Or so I think.

I think Bergen is better to build the lighthouse. I will get 9spt after corruption maybe 10 at food deficit, but it has the option of prebuild via palace. And I think it should be started as soon as possible, it will be posible to slow down the build later via coast or unmined grassland.

My experience in deity PTW showed the same as you Arathorn. This simply means you can't aim to take a whole civ in 20 turns. In this case I see this scenario: 2 galleys, 5 spears and a settler, declare war, land on Mt Arabia and settle on incense. No matter what, from that point on that incense is ours. Next turn galleys returns to Trondheim. Next turn they bring back 6 archers, 6 more 2 turns later. Capture or raze the city we can see and hole up in there, making as much damage to his attacking troops as possible. When Abu is ready to talk, get whatever tech he managed to grab. Rinse and repeat 20 turns later, propably with swords or horseman.

Looking back at the map, I think an outpost should be established on Mt. Trondheim and another on the far north mountain. This might give us a contact before Abu get it for the cost of 2 pop. This is not urgent but it should be kept in mind.

Suicide galleys are a nice tool, but they depend too much on luck. I'd rather we make our own luck. If we sit there and wait until Berserker, they will be obsolete before seeing any action.

In any case, these are simply my thoughts on seeing the start position, I'll go along with whatever the team feels is best.

edit: oh and the city on the hill looks like a good idea, it will give a bit more commerce to play with.

Zed-F

Nov 19, 2002, 12:37 PM

Galleys hold 2 units, not 3, unless they changed this in PtW...

JaxomCA

Nov 19, 2002, 12:44 PM

oops :o then make it 3 galleys :)

Charis

Nov 19, 2002, 02:38 PM

I like Bergen for the wonder due to the Palace placeholder as well.

As far as the city on the hill, my initial impression was that with so few shields around, it would be a poor choice to have a tiny village and use up the only hill. But on closer inspection, the food supply for the blue dot is grass, wheat and water. Long term that means an even amount of food and the ability to support one or both mountains easily, in 'production' mode. A single hill would be 'unstable' for food, one too much or one too little for steady size, and it's no better than the mountains, to be working. So we won't miss using the hill that badly, compared to having another size 12 good commerce city.

That whale is the key to being able to have an extra mountain tile in production, by adding the other city, and for a good chunk of the early game, that bonus commerce will be nice. Can we get Colossus there?! It would be a stretch, but quite a commerceful city. The downside - the yellow dot will be using the whale.

For priorities, it seems like: blue, yellow, red, green, optional hill.
The blue is at top because of the bonus food and because having visibility up there will do away with the barbarian threat quickly. Scouts do NOT count for scaring away barbs btw, unless that's a recent change. (Nor workers or settlers, just military units)

With decent food and no fresh water, and the need to settle-out quickly, I'm not particularly in favor of more granaries besides our settler-capital, and think workers will be more useful than MP-nonvet warriors.

Charis

Ozymandous

Nov 19, 2002, 03:08 PM

Just reading along here, but wanted to comment (sorry for the intrusion).

Charis: RBD9 should have had an amphib attacker like now, that special "galley" seemed great at the time but doesn't seem to suit the vikings now as well as the Berserk. I played that game in Shadow and conquered the whole world after we failed to do it in the SG version. :D

Also scouts don't scare barbs away once they have formed but scouts can see quite a ways so one perchec on top of a mountain might keep them from even forming.

Question about the city placement. If the second city (forget the name) had bee moved one N (NE?) it would have gotten the whale and both cattle. What is the benefit of it being where it is now as opposed to being moved up? Other than having another city, that is.

Arathorn

Nov 19, 2002, 03:10 PM

Ozy,

One N doesn't do that. One NE ruins the game in the square there and makes the cows take longer to get into radius. Definitely a nice spot for city 2, IMO.

Arathorn

JaxomCA

Nov 19, 2002, 04:21 PM

I would not settle the red spot until we have secured (or vetoed) the lighthouse. Bergen one E would have catch the whale and 2 cows eventually but would have removed the possibility of a city on the red spot. I like Bergen, I think I will make it my own little kingdom, if nobody objects :)

Iteean

Nov 19, 2002, 04:44 PM

Wow, this one looks interesting. The dot map (with the red dot moved) looks good, I'd also add in the city on the hill as Arathorn suggested.

With regard to a military buildup: we only have 4 mountains and 2 hills (and 3 mountains are gold), so isn't there an excellent chance we will be without iron? I'll cross my fingers, but ...

I'm still a bit indecisive on the Lighthouse. If this were SP I probably wouldn't try for it, unless I were doing it just for the challenge. I would absolutely love for us to pull it off though! :)

Another thing we may want to keep in mind is that civs will now sell contact with you, so we might not have to go out and find them, or pay through the nose to talk to them. (edit: of course you don't get to broker either) This happened in my first PTW game and I couldn't figure out how in the world I could talk to Rome when I had no idea where it was.

Thanks for including me Architect, this is gonna be fun!

Iteean

Charis

Nov 19, 2002, 05:55 PM

[0] 2550 BC - We have a good position, lacking in fresh water, contact other
than Arabs, and a strong posibility of a lack of key resources (Iron??!)
The dotmap looks good with a red dot shift, and folks are looking for a
solid island settling, with an eye toward possibly the Lighthouse. We're
heading in research to Map Making.

At present Bergen is working towards a Barracks, and Trondheim toward Warrior.
The only thing I see I don't like is the worker building a road in the forest.
We want the forest cleared to get 3 food anyway, and it takes longer to build
road before clearing. The road in progress will take 4 turns to finish, but
only 3 to build from scratch. I stop him (sorry) and shift him to chopping.
I also retract my earlier comment about not needing granaries - not remembering
we have NO fresh water, and hence no irrigation until much much later in the game.
I also switch Trondheim to Settler.

[1-4] 2510, 2470, 2430, 2390

[5] 2350 BC - We notice that now on Diplo we can talk to the Celts, which means the
Arabs are NOT alone! They sold contact with us to the Celts. The two of them both
have Bronze Working and Masonry. Our Alphabet is due in 5, maybe we can sell that
for those two.

[6] 2310 BC - The settler is done and heads for Blue dot up North. Midturn is the
message the Arabs are building the Colossus.

[8] 2230 BC - The Celts are building the Pyramids.

[10] 2150 BC - Alphabet arrives, the forest is gone, and our worker starts to mine
the game spot he is on. Granary now due in just 5. Trondheim expects another settler
in two. The Celts are ahead of Arabia on the histogram, and will be sought to pay
the high price on Alphabet. On F11, Carthage, Madrid and Seoul are top three cities,
followed by our glorious capital, then Karakorum.

We get both Masonry and Bronze and 28 gold for our Alphabet, then see both have
Iron Working. We buy it from Arabia for Alphabet and have to pay 68 gold.
Three techs for 40 gold, a good round.

WOO!!! We *DO* have iron! It's right on the hill next to Trondheim!
We might get a warrior or two built before hooking up, but that's SUPER!

[12] 2070 BC - Celts start Colossus too. Our next settler arrives and heads to Yellow.

[13] 2030 BC - Arabs have Mysticism, but best not to come in @2nd civ.
Copenhagen is founded at blue and starts a worker. No barbs and until they have
a boat we need zero military.

[15] 1950 BC - Celts are building the Oracle. We have no need for the tech at present,
maybe we'll make more contacts and see the price drop.

[16] 1910 BC - They both have the wheel. Now that's one I would like, for option to make
Chariots and to see if we actually have horses or not! Besides, growing cash too high
would just make them jealous :P

Alas, it's not cheap at all, 109g+1gpt. GOOD NEWS!! We got horses!! It's on the
grass "errant red" spot, right near Bergen. When we DO get boats, boys, we'll have
some premium combined arms attack units! :hammer:

Reykjavik is founded at Yellow dot, but won't pull in the whale until it has
a temple. We start a temple, and can whip it to finish if needed. An early temple will
be good, both for culture and the whale. The Arabs already have a temple somewhere,
the Celts (despite being religious) do not.

[18] 1830 BC - Lack of MP making its presence felt, needing to run lux slider. But I would
rather pay a few pennies than slow down the settling curve (for now).

[19] 1790 BC - The worker heads up to start connecting our cities by road.
Trondheim is due to finish shields for settler next turn, but not grow to 3 until
two turns, and there would be wasted shields on top of that. Instead of throwing away
ten shields I insert the temple now.

[20] 1750 BC - Settler due from Bergen in 2 - after it comes out you can put back lux a
tad, stopping our small deficit, and do a temple in Bergen, followed by either a rax
or prebuild for wonder. Reykjavik may want to move a tile worker from grass to forest,
and consider temple whip. My, that was a fast 20 turns :P

JaxomCA <-- Up, 20 turns
Arathorn <-- On deck, 10 turns

Save game 1750BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5-vikings-1750bc.zip)

Charis

Architect

Nov 19, 2002, 07:43 PM

Roster Change:

Architect
Charis
JaxomCA <--UP
Arathorn
Falsfire
Iteean <--Added

Note: With this many players I will skip people who don't respond within 24 hours with a got it. If you get skipped, you can just pick up next time around.

JaxomCA

Nov 19, 2002, 08:17 PM

JaxomCA

Nov 20, 2002, 01:29 AM

Preturn: I leave everything as it is, only MM Reykjavik to use forest tile. It will grow in 12 instead of 6 but even that will be too soon to whip the temple. We may not need a standing army but we have a serious need of MP. The proud Viking people are happier under a strong warrior eye :)

[list=1]

1725 BC ...

1700 BC
Settler finishes in Bergen, starts a warrior for MP. The settler is sent to the red spot to lock in the horse and the iron.
Luxury still at 50% because of remote Copenhagen.

1675 BC
Copenhagen finishes worker, starts another. Luxury dropped to 30%.

1650 BC
Oslo founded, starts a worker. That will make 4 workers, plus one for each new city, with our limited land that should be enough workers.

1625 BC
The Celts learned how to ride on a horse. A Viking warrior tried to imitate the Celts but he fell down a mountain near Copenhagen and is now missing. The towns people named the place Gronar's Folly.

1600 BC A few notable events this turn.
- Trondheim completes a temple and starts on a settler.
- Bergen completes a warrior and starts another.
- Carthage completes the Colossus, the Arabs will cascade to the pyramid.
- A new contact shows up, the cautious Wang Kon of Korea, who knows about writing but not about masonry or mysticism. He would trade if we throw in 4gpt and 14 golds, our whole treasury. Alternatively, he would buy masonry for 46 golds.
- Brennus and Abu Bakr know about writing too, either one of them want 11gpt for writing meaning our masonry is worth 6gpt to Wang Kon. Both of them want more than 5gpt for mysticism.
- I decide to wait on writing and gather some golds. Bergen could build the lighthouse in 38 turns if it started now and we can keep it happy.
- Man! This turn took me half an hour!

1575 BC
The Arabs cascade to pyramids, the Celts to Oracle.
I could buy mysticism for 5gpt and 26 golds. I do the deed and trade mysticism and masonry to Wang Kon for writing, who is now polite.
Treasury: 2 golds, 1gpt :(

This will be a tough 20 turns to come. Map making is ordered at best rate, 1 beaker.

1550 BC
The Arabs starts the Oracle.
Bergen finishes warrior and starts on a palace for the lighthouse.
The missing warrior came back to town with two broken legs. He lay in the town square and collects 1 gold to tell his story.

1525 BC
Korea begins the pyramids in Seoul. Horseback riding was passed around.

1500 BC
Korea begins the Oracle.

1475 BC
Trondheim trains a settler, starts another one.

1450 BC
Hire another taxman in Reykjavik. The Viking people are annoyed at us :)

1425 BC
Copenhagen trains a worker, starts a temple. The citizens are unhappy, they want a harbor to park their boats.

Interturn the Celts came to town with a barrel of a malted liquid that left most of Trondheim's citizens with a headache by the next day. A seemingly sober Celt informed Ragnar that this building was now an embassy. Free malted liquid will be served to Viking women every Friday night!

1400 BC
Word came that the Ottoman have built the Oracle. Some of Trondheim citizens ask if we can drink it. None of our neighbors have map making yet so we can't join the fest.
Oslo trains a worker, the population beg for a temple.
Stockholm founded in a forest, one of the citizens immediately enters the worker training program.
Judging by the cultural border, the pink city is probably the Arabs capitol.

1375 BC
Well, that didn't take long. Abu Bakr, Wang Kon and Brennus met somewhere near Entremont. Abu was offended by the new liquor and forbid its distribution over Arab territory. Wang and Brennus strongly disagreed and are now using force to insure a free flow of malted liquid. Rumor is, the people of Korea can't hold their malted liquid.

1350 BC
Bergen grows to size 5, luxury raised to 30%, palace in 37 turns, map making in 32.

1325 BC
Trondheim trains a settler and starts a military training program. The citizens are unhappy, they want a brewery.
The settler wants to see Gronar's Folly and heads that way.
The population of Copenhagen grows. They heard about the malted liquid and are unhappy they didn't have any. The next leader can decide whether a pair of strong arms or religion is best to deal with the unrest. For now, a taxman is hired.

1300 BC
The taxman in Reykjavik is fired after a warrior entered town and growled at the crowd who were discussing the unavailability of malted liquid.

1275 BC
Brennus and Wang Kon learned how to make a map. Rumors of ship loads of malted liquid are flying throughout the Kingdom. Talks of joining the Celt Empire have been heard. We need to send loyal warriors soon before our glorious Kingdom falls into anarchy.

1250 BC
Korea starts on the lighthouse in Cheju.
[/list=1]

It looks like the Celt are the most clever as they discovered all the new technology so far. And they know how to make malted liquid ;)

Bergen was set to finish the palace in 29 turns, we will know how to make maps in 28. If Bergen grows again, we may not be able to provide enough luxury to keep the citizens in check. It might be a good idea to keep the town at size 5 by working a mined plains at a food deficit. Damascus is on the coast as it cascaded from colossus to pyramids. Entremont is not on the coast so it is stuck with the pyramids or nothing. The biggest treat to the lighthouse is probably Carthage as they built the Colossus in their capitol. Wang Kon's map could be bought to determine if Cheju is a danger for the lighthouse.

The palace can be switch to a temple, loosing 16 shields in the process. Or we can keep our fingers crossed and hope we have literature before someone builds the lighthouse. I would go with keeping the palace prebuild.

The settler is almost ready to settle near Gronar's Folly.

The Viking kingdom in all its glory.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5_bc1250_minimap.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5_bc1250_fullview.jpg)

Click on the minimap to see a full view.

The save game (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5_bc1250.zip)

Charis

Nov 20, 2002, 07:19 AM

This is the stuff that legends are made of - the Oracle foretells the Ancient "Malted War" brewing even now!?!

Alas, until then, the people are most discontent, knowing of this nectar, but unable to brew any themselves! They work hard, yet have no luxuries - sad! In fact, I dare say if this goes on long enough people will *literally* go Berzerk!! (Our generals wonder if they can use this to our advantage?)

It looks like we did a very good job of settling our little home more rapidly - we'll need those workers to get roads to improve income and mines to improve production asap. Oh that they could irrigate, but that's a tale for another day, how can one irrigate without malted beverage?!

I like continuing with the prebuild, and trying to save up some cash to buy another tech like Literature in case of cascade. Koreans, eh? So Abu is FAR from alone it seems. I'm not sure if the palace is more or less shields than the Lighthouse, but if less, we may want to buy map making on the turn before we have enough shields to finish the GLighthouse.

It's too bad the map made our expansionist trait 100% useless, unless of course the GL sets of our Golden Age. It would do so too early rather than at the right time by Berzerker victory, and 'exp' would then be literally a negative benefit to us, where sci or rel would come in handy about now :P Still, expansionist we shall be!

It sounds like one warr one spear is about the right MP/defense per city, with extra production going to spears and a horse or two, in prep for the "incense" settlement/war. The warrs can be regular, but we'll want to get to building rax for higher quality spears that will last the whole game via upgrade chain. We'll have the nasty burden in that time frame of building aqueducts in every city.

Charis

PS in Edit
- I'm wondering if Stockholm would be better off with a warrior than a worker, seeing our capital and other cities naked no with souls to dissuade malt dissatisfaction? Without extra food those hamlet cities aren't the best ones to bleed a worker from - we can snag more later when we hit size 6 and hit the growth cap. Usually a quick worker can pay for himself very quickly by doing one irrigation, not possible here.
Although... ya can never have enough workers - like the Iron Hill, all those gold, three more bonus grass, plus if we're stuck at size 6 for long, we may want to pop workers from high food spots and put them into fishing vilages when they have harbors - enough food to support themselves at any size but not enough to grow very fast. Just a thought, either warr or worker will work fine.
I'm also thinking that once we get engineering we can do a massive lumberjacking program to get as much as we can from this dry land.

If we get to the point where we have more units than allowed for gold, disband the scouts. (They're not free cost are they?)

Architect

Nov 20, 2002, 07:59 AM

Roster:

Architect
Charis
JaxomCA
Arathorn <-- UP
Falsfire
Iteean

Excellent start gentlemen. We now switch to 10 turn trade-offs.

Please try to avoid too much of this "malted liqour" during your turn as we do want to win this game right.. :)

JaxomCA

Nov 20, 2002, 11:21 AM

Copenhagen can be changed back to worker duty at this time, it is the most corrupt city (I think Gronar is not declaring all the golds he is making). I have put the new cities on worker because I expected to build vet warriors in Trondheim for crowd control. Trondheim could be changed to warrior without loss on this turn, or it could continue with spear and train enough spears for each city.

I did not try to connect the iron since we might want to go for a warrior training program first. With our weak economy, it might be better to train swordsman right off the bat.

Maps can be bought for our whole treasury, our own WM was worth about 10 golds so I did not sell it.

I think the current palace size is the same as the lighthouse, base on the numbers of turns I calculated for the lighthouse but I was at the embassy party so I may have miscalculated :)

Charis

Nov 20, 2002, 01:21 PM

I like the idea of Copenhagen back on worker duty rather than the closer cities.

As for warriors, I'm not fully in "PtW" mode that even there will one day be guerillas. Then again, with the Berzerker, the chance it will be more than a warrior are slimmer than usual. Berzerkers come with invention, so the option to make Med.Inf out of them is weak, likewise with 6 attack and far earlier, Berzerkers outclass Guerillas. We will need spears and lots of them if we're planning to have one per town plus several for the incense, so I like Trondheim on spear duty. The chance of us getting invaded is so remote, and we would get 'first shot' to counterattack anway, we could probably use warriors literally for defense and never lose a city - so cheap regulars from low shield towns works for me as it frees up our bigger cities for 'real' production. (On Pangaea I like the warrior training then Sword route better)

At 'some' point before our first ship goes out we want to buy all the maps, but until then there is no rush.

> I think the current palace size is the same as the lighthouse,
> base on the numbers of turns I calculated for the lighthouse
> but I was at the embassy party so I may have miscalculated

So 28 turns until we actually GET the Lighthouse? Wouldn't that be lovely?
[EDIT @Jaxom - "Blinks eyes... checks difficulty... Deity, of *course*... tries to reset expectations of mauling the AI in the Middle Ages ]

Charis

JaxomCA

Nov 20, 2002, 02:06 PM

I am not too hot for warriors either, but since Trondheim can get one out every other turn at size 2, possibly one every turn at size 4, Trondheim could quickly supply all the MP needs for now with 2 vet warriors for each city. These warriors would eventually become Med. Inf. then Guerilla. With 2 of these per city (possibly 3 later on) , I don't think we need to have defenders in the cities until Marines hit the scene. That way, these 'sober' warriors, supported by a couple of knights for greater range, can easily take care of homeland defense while our 'malted-enhanced' berserker are wreaking havoc oversea.

Once the local unrest is taken care of, Trondheim can start building the incense taskforce, with Bergen eventually helping build that force.

Buying maps now would help to determine if Damascus is a danger for the lighthouse. Other than that, there is nothing we can do about Carthage and whoever else is out there in the fog. A decent deity AI city can build two lighthouses in 28 turns :(

Iteean

Nov 20, 2002, 07:42 PM

How hard do you think it will be to invade Arabia?

I figure someone else noticed, but hey, Arabia's power is comparable to ours and Brennus' is growing. And they are at war. If Damascus completes the lighthouse, we'll just have to borrow it. :hammer:

Actually, Arabia may be a non-issue, civ-wise, by the time we have Map Making.

Iteean

Arathorn

Nov 21, 2002, 08:11 AM

Got it.

Arathorn

Arathorn

Nov 21, 2002, 11:16 PM

(0) 1250 - Changed Trondheim to archer -- we can have non-vet MPs but our war units need to be vets. Cope to worker. Stockholm to barracks. Celts will give horseback riding for alliance vs. Arabs. WM + 23 gold gets us close to map-making.
(I) Celts start Lighthouse.

(1) 1225 - Science rate to zero.
(I) Celts and Arabs sign peace treaty. We missed an opportunity to play mercenary. Would've gotten us a tech for free. Sorry.

(2) 1200 - Birka founded on the hills. Warrior ordered.
(I) Cope worker -> worker.

(4) 1150 - Back to 10% science. Lux tax to 50% to keep Bergen happy. Actually, Bergen makes a scientist. Sci to 0%. Luxes to 30%. Celts have Philosophy. Arabs still lack map-making.

(5) 1125 - Trond archer -> warrior.

(7) 1075 - Horses online.
(I) Trond warrior -> spear. Stockholm barracks -> archer.

Save file
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5-1000bc.zip

Arathorn

Architect

Nov 22, 2002, 08:19 AM

Roster:

Architect
Charis
JaxomCA
Arathorn
Falsfire <-- UP
Iteean

JaxomCA

Nov 22, 2002, 04:23 PM

Well we are moving ahead :)

I think there is an opportunity for a 2 for 1 trade, buying Map Making from Korean and trading it to Abu for Horseback riding. The next leader should keep an eye on that. If you feel bold and lucky, you might be able to pull a 3 for 1, buying maths@2nd civ from the Celts, trading it to Korea for Map Making, then trading this to Arabia for Horseback. But this will put a heavy load on our economy so it may not be a good idea. And it would give even more money to the Celt who are way too rich already, the maltd liquor probably has something to do with that :)

falsfire

Nov 23, 2002, 12:58 AM

will play tomorrow afternoon/evening.

falsfire

Nov 23, 2002, 05:55 PM

1000BC[0] - looking over our empire, things seem to be in order, I was at first skeptical about building archers, but then remembered that they u/g to Berserkers for us. I change nothing and go to next turn.

975BC[1] - Trondheim spearman-->spearman. Reykjavik temple-->rax.

950BC[2] - Birka warrior-->rax. Ottomans build Pyramids in Edrine. Carthage cascades to and builds lighthouse in Carthage :( Pooey. Now what to do with our Palace prebuild in Bergen. Great Library? Not sure. It's accumulated so many shields it'd be a waste to switch to anything we can build now, and we still *may* have a shot at G.L., as no wonders are being constructed by the AIs that we know about, we're the only ones with a prebuild. Our treasury (91g +9gpt) plus WM is "close to a deal" for MM from both Korea and Celts, Arabia still doesn't have it.

925BC[3] - Korea has Mathematics, so there goes the chances of a 3-for-1.

900BC[4] - Trondheim spear-->spear. I trade Korea 104g +9gpt +WM for Map Making (ouch), his attitude improves to Cautious. Then we get Horseback Riding, 3g, and WM from Abu for MM. Then back to Korea, who buys our revised WM for 3g. Then to Brennus who gives us his WM and 5g for our WM. He was about to know our WM anyways, as he's sailing a galley along our coastline now. Here's our revised knowledge of the world:
http://www.kaejae-worx.com/~devin/civ3/rbe5/rbe5_wm_900BC.jpg
Then I change Stockholm from building an archer to building our first galley, due in 6.

875BC[5] - I trade our map around and make us 5g. Otherwise, zzzzz.

850BC[6] - zzzzz.

825BC[7] - zzzzz.

800BC[8] - Wang Kon and Brennus have met the Ottomans. Let's see if they sell contact with us to them :)

775BC[9] - zzzzz.

750BC[10] - zzzz.

Notes for next player: Trondheim can't grow any more unless it gets a harbour. It's current orders are horseman, but next player may want to change that to grow it one more to size 6. Our military consists of: 5 warriors, 2 archers, and 4 spears. One galley is constructed and heading down towards the crossing to Arabia. We're currently researching Polytheism at 1 scientist rate, and our treasury is 27g +2gpt. We have 14 turns left on our massive 9gpt payment to him for MM. I vetoed my own decisions of rax in Birka and Reykjavik to build warrior (Birka, for MP duty in various cities of our empire), and galley in Reykjavik (due in 3).
We only have 12 turns left on the Palace prebuild in Bergen, so if there is any possible way for us to get Lit off the AIs before then we must do so to swap it to GL.

http://www.kaejae-worx.com/~devin/civ3/rbe5/rbe5_750BC.zip

LKendter

Nov 23, 2002, 06:31 PM

Originally posted by falsfire
1000BC[0] - looking over our empire, things seem to be in order, I was at first skeptical about building archers, but then remembered that they u/g to Berserkers for us. I change nothing and go to next turn.

Uh, sorry to disapoint you, but Archers DON'T upgrade to Bezercks. If you look at the below picture:
archer - longbow
longbow - guerilla
berzerck - guerilla
The 2nd should have send bezerck to have a chance.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/LAK-208.jpg

Charis

Nov 23, 2002, 07:09 PM

Ouch, archipelago viking wins are tougher than they seem, eh? At least with a small land mass with no fresh water.

We're rather in a pickle about the wonder prebuild. Going deep into debt will either be seen as a stroke of brilliance or utter :smoke: :P

If we just get units over there to get Mecca and the chokepoint Damascus, then full speed ahead on Map Making purchase will get the yay award. If Arabia is already dead and gone by the time we get there, OR if we can't land sufficient forces to actually take anything, it will be seen as weed when we could have chosen Literature to research ourselves, going max research, and definitely landed the tech just before the prebuild expires.

As it stands now, SLOW DOWN THE BUILD, there's not enough time to assume the AI is researching Lit, *OR* that we can afford it if they are! Bergen can move a tile worker from cattle to the sea, and from the plains mine to the unimproved grass, to make it due in 20 turns, and still no growth. There can be an extra few rounds of low-starvation delay, and at best a few slim rounds purposefully going into disorder there! So we're talking no more than about 28 turns, max. IF we had the gpt still, we could switch even now to Literature and research it before 28. But we don't.

If I had to bet, I would say it doesn't score the 'yay' point -- I don't think we had the troops ready enough to the point where we HAD to have Map Making right then. "What can wait, should" But there is enough of a chance that the bold purchase was our last shot at Arabia before they go down, and "it can't wait" ringing true. Should be a fun next few player turns to watch!

As far as the invasion - we can stick to incense hill landing and settling, and ferry more troops to hold it then take Mecca, or if we had more troops (we don't ;P ) land South of Damascus and totally cut off reinforcements, then fight upward, taking Damascus and Mecca. I would expect this to need about 6 spears and 8 archers to work, which needs too many boats as well. The incense city has the advantage of needing less boats.

If our next player can slow the prebuild, scrimp for cash, and somehow pull out a wonder of Bergen, I would be impressed. Given our very rough start, the "other" GL would be very helpful to us this game!

Good luck,
Charis

Iteean

Nov 23, 2002, 07:09 PM

Now I just have to see what we can do about that prebuild in Bergen. I can swap the tiles around a little bit to slow its progress (prob stretch it to 20-25 turns), but then we gamble on someone researching Lit and then us being able to afford it. Maybe build a harbor and trade away our horses if necesary, for extra income? :crazyeye:

Course, I could pillage one of our grass tiles and slow it even more. :)

I believe I'll think on this a bit.

Iteean

Edit: oops I see Charis posted before my "got it".

Iteean

Nov 23, 2002, 09:37 PM

Okay, I've spent a while thinking about our situation. Bergen could be starved down to size 4 and micromanaged to min shields and the palace could be delayed around 40 turns. That is enough time to start a min research of Literature. Currently, we are 5 turns into Polytheism, so we could try to finish Poly first, and hope it could be bartered towards obtaining Literature. Since Lit is optional though, I'm not sure if I want to take that risk. If the AIs got Poly first, they could trade it around and make it useless to us. Which is the AI more likely to research first?

There are a few other things to consider too. We could try researching Lit at faster than min. That would require selling off horses and / or iron. This is bad because we want to have those available for our troops. Rather than sell immediately, we might be able to use them later as insurance in case we need to buy Lit when someone beats us to it. The risk there is that the civ that needs those resources might not have cash or Literature.

The other thing to consider is the Great Wall. The AIs should be picking up Construction soon. If I had to bet, I'd say they'll finish the Wall before anyone gets Lit, but we don't want to ignore the possibility of a cascade. Actually it isn't out of the realm of possibility that we could get the Wall. I don't think it is worth it though.

If the cascade ends at the Wall, I'd say we have a pretty good shot at the (other) GL. I'm going to play tomorrow, so anyone with a suggestion is welcome to speak up. :p

In case anyone has problems understanding my incoherent babbling: I want to starve Bergen, and then start min research on Lit. I think that hoping Lit will be discovered in under 28 turns is too risky.

Iteean

JaxomCA

Nov 23, 2002, 11:27 PM

I would starve Bergen down to 5 pop and then delay production, but not too much. Keep at least 4-5 shields per turn on it. The Great Library is more shields than the Palace by a 100. That means 10 turns of production. I have seen many comments about what the AI usually research, my personnal experience say at least one AI will research what I research and get it shortly before I do. So I would switch to Literature now. Either we go all out for the other GL, or we cut our losses right away. With map making in our hands now, I would make sure we have at least 3-4 galleys exploring around our island. I believe it is worth 1 pop-rush each since we can barely keep our people happy without going broke. Those galleys will be helpful in 30 turns when we are ready to land in Arabia and they have a chance of finding a crossing and meeting some of the other 3 civs out there.

On the other hand, Arabia was (is still?) at war with the Celts and Korea, so they must be quite gassed out by now.

Our land is poor, we will not be able to buy or research techs in a timely fashion soon. At the current rate, it looks likely our berserkers will face rifleman when we finally get them. To avoid that, we either need the other GL, or we need to grab what is left of Arabia. I don't think we can pursue both objectives and it is a gambit either way.

In any case, do build a harbor as soon as possible, this will improve the flow of malted liquor :)

Zed-F

Nov 23, 2002, 11:54 PM

About losing a few turns on Polytheism, I would seriously consider dropping Poly now if you think you can get the Great Library. If you're planning for success, then you will automatically get Polytheism when the GL finishes anyway.

Iteean

Nov 24, 2002, 01:18 PM

In 750 BC, Iteean, later to be known as the Thrifty, ascends to power over the Vikings. The harshness of the land has made his people a hardy if gloomy lot. The people chase off the tax collectors and spend their money on huge amounts of malted beverages. Iteean too loves these beverages, but realizes this waste must stop if the Vikings are to become a great people.

He is very unpopular with the people. He continues building a palace in Bergen within sight of Trondheim. As it approaches completion, the despot suddenly orders work to slow down to a fourth of what it was. Some call him mad, and wonder why he orders the palace remodeled with hundreds of empty shelves. To fund this project, Iteean decides to squash all the discontent with a little more military, and squeezes every G he can out of this barren land.

[0] 750 BC - Research switches from Polytheism to Literature. Configure Bergen for 2 spt at -1 fpt, which gets a palace in 40 turns. I'll switch that to 3 spt as soon as I get another road built. I don't know if that is slow enough. Move a warrior from Reykjavik to Stockholm for MP duty, switch Bergen scientist to an entertainer and Copenhagen's taxman to a scientist, which is enough for me to lower the lux rate to 20% and get an extra 3 GPT. This still only allows 4 beakers for science at 20%, so I'm going to risk a 40 turn Lit. We got such a late start on it, some AI will probably research it before then, and we want cash available when they do.

[1] 730 BC - Iron mine finishes, so I start a road. Juggle around the troops a little more on MP duty, which allows me to lower lux to 10%. I change my mind about the worker building at Copenhagen and switch it to a warrior.

[2] 710 BC - Galley completes in Reykjavik, starts a harbor. Temple completes in Oslo, start barracks since it is close to where the action will be soon. Warrior completes in Birka, starts harbor. Korea offers its WM for WM plus 30 G but I decline.

[3] 690 BC - Oslo borrows tiles from Trondheim to speed its barracks while Trondheim takes more ocean for extra cash, without slowing down anything. Horseman completes in Trondheim, starts Swordsman, which we can build every 3 turns. Warrior completes in Copenhagen, starts Harbor.

[4] 670 BC - Western galley crosses the sea and spots a yellow border, the Mongols. The Mongols have contact with Spain but no other Civs. I take a slight gamble and hold off on selling contact, hoping to find the Spanish myself. Stockholm has grown to size 4 and I can't keep it happy, so I switch to a scientist there, and swap tiles between Copenhagen and Birka to get Copenhagen growing again.

[5] 650 BC - Bad news for us, the Celts declare against the Arabs.

[6] 630 BC - Sword completes in Trondheim, starts another. Barracks completes
in Oslo, starts spear.

[7] 610 BC - Bergen's palace is currently due the same time as Literature at one beaker rate. I swap a sea tile to an unimproved plain to make it due in 22 turns. The Ottomans offer Mathematics for Writing plus 18 G. I decide to trade their WM plus Mathematics for Writing, our TM, and 31 G to get the maximum value out of our Writing tech. Stockholm completes a horseman, starts a spear.

[8] 590 BC - Galley finds the Spanish town of Vitoria. Spain is also lacking contact with our three neighbors. I hold off selling contact again since we seem to have a perfect opportunity to slow down the tech race. I notice the Ottomans lack Map Making and will give all their gold for it, but I think they can give more.

[9] 570 BC - Disband a scout in Birka to hurry the harbor, plus I don't want to pay 1 GPT when we hit 28 troops. The Mongols offer Philosophy plus TM plus 26 G for Mathematics, but I wait. Sword completes in Trondheim, starts another.

[10] 550 BC - Whip a harbor in Birka. Disband a scout in Copenhagen.

Notes for the next player:

We only have two galleys and they are far from home, so we'll need to build more or bring them home. I'd like to find the last civ though.

The Ottomans still lack Map Making, so you may want to sell it to them. This may speed them to finding the Spanish and ruin our brokering abilities though.

The Mongols will still buy Mathematics. We can probably get either Philosophy or Code of Laws for it. The Arabs lack Code of Laws but have Philosophy, so we might try for a 2-fer. I had held off trading with the Mongols to see if I could get a lux deal, but I just realized we won't be able to do that until Astronomy. Of course we could just gamble 100% on the GL and not make any trades. That's slightly risky though.

I believe keeping the AIs ignorant of each other is working to our advantage at the moment. Spain is the only civ with Currency, the Celts are the only ones with Construction, but are not building the Great Wall at the moment. Once they meet each other, the tech speed will of course take off, so we may want to think carefully about selling contact. I hope it was a good idea to not broker contact, but we can still do so if the team wants.

We are also making 9 GPT at the moment with 74 in the bank. When the current trade deal expires, we may want to speed up research on Literature. I'm afraid of a cascade off the Great Wall when someone finally gets around to starting it. I'm also afraid of no one getting Lit before our prebuild is done. Just some thoughts anyway. :)

Good luck!

Iteean

rbe5-vikings-550bc. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5-vikings-550bc.zip)

JaxomCA

Nov 24, 2002, 06:32 PM

Way to go, the Thrifty, that's the spirit!

If another war started on Arabia, it might be a good idea to jump in, maybe we don't have enough military for an effective offense but we should have enough to land on the incense and keep it. I would go faster on the palace, there will always be time later on to slow it down to a single spt.

Architect

Nov 24, 2002, 07:47 PM

Roster:

Architect <-- UP
Charis
JaxomCA
Arathorn
Falsfire
Iteean

Got it.

Charis

Nov 24, 2002, 07:59 PM

We're frankly way behind, due to our dry small start. We've done well with what we had, but have a lot to go. The early prebuild was I think a good call, and I'm confident we can get the Great Library if we are careful and make it a prioriy!!

Way to go, the Thrifty, that's the spirit!

If another war started on Arabia, it might be a good idea to jump in, maybe we don't have enough military for an effective offense but we should have enough to land on the incense and keep it. I would go faster on the palace, there will always be time later on to slow it down to a single spt.

> -Jaxom- I would go faster on the palace, there will always be
> time later on to slow it down to a single spt.

:nono: No, slow now is correct! Even if the AI researches it we may not have cash to buy it. I wish we had not gone single beaker, but that's too late to change now. The reason is that with 'real' research spent, not just a single beaker, we would get a discount later and probably afford it. 40 instead of 30 turns of reseach might just mean the difference between getting and missing the GL. I don't think we'll be hit with a cascade problem. Once we do get Literature, don't give it up for ANY reason (perhaps until another AI has it too). There will be only a small window between when an AI learns Lit and between when we will finish it (unless they're heavy into researching it now)

Even with the current slow down, it's NOT enough! We will need to either slow it down further OR take about 3-6 cycles of putting the specialist to work and LETTING Bergen go into disorder (then fixing next round, and repeating). The reason you can't wait til later is simply because our food comes from the same tiles as the good shields. Waiting to later to slow would require starving it down to such a small size that it would take to long to finish the wonder once we have Lit!

We can do it! Stay focused on it and don't panic! :cool:

The benefit, if that is needed:
Philosophy, Code of Laws, Republic (revolt into this!), Monarchy, Currency, Construction, Horseback Riding, Monotheism, Theology and almost surely Feudalism and a few more, maybe five more. All for free due our prebuild and diligence! THAT is worth going for!

> We are also making 9 GPT at the moment with 74 in the bank.
> When the current trade deal expires, we may want to speed up
> research on Literature.
It'll be too late, I think, but if economics say it's good at the time, yes go for it.

> I'm afraid of a cascade off the Great Wall when someone finally
> gets around to starting it.
My F7 shows no one is working on it? Again, if they don't research/get Literature they CAN'T build GL. If they DO research lit, we can buy it and finish before them.

> I'm also afraid of no one getting Lit before our prebuild is done.
*WE* Will! You're right not to trust them! Go max slow speed on palace AND use the civil disorder cycling a couple of times.

--
On another matter, also quite Urgent...

Arabia.

The Celts are at war with them, and are THE killer civ of the ancient era. Arabia has Mecca and two size one cities left.

They are *TOAST*

If we don't get down there *ASAP* with our two swords, two horses and two spears, it will be Celt land and we'll have no invasion until we're amphibious! I don't expect Brennus to take too long to get them! Having BOTH galleys go exploring... that was NOT the point of mapmaking!! Kudos finding Spain, that's for sure :P But we need to switch Oslo or Trondheim or both, to galley *NOW*, and get our people down there QUICKLY!

If we can take Damascus, we can take Mecca at our leisure, as the Celts will be cut off! Mecca itself will be our incense town. Only if it looked like Mecca was about to fall next turn would it be good to settle ON the incense immediately. Stockholm can wait ONE turn, switch to settler, then whip it - to get a settler on that
hill fast enough.

Doing this we could have two galleys filled with two swords and spears within four rounds, one landing at the choke past Damascus two rounds after that, one immediately dumping a spear or two on the incense hill. The settler and two horse and two more spears can be immediately behind them.

Celts UU is double speed, fighting a "gassed" civ. Time really is short on Arabia!!

Gogogogogo!!! :hammer:
Charis

PS in Edit - more specifically on Bergen - it's due to shrink this turn. Next turn if you move a cattle worker to the plain grass, and put one scientist on, the city will be a happy no-grow size 5 handling all our reserach needs. Palace will be due in 25-27, and literature in 29, meaning 1 to 3 'disorder' cyles (each loses 2 turns) to slow it down to perfection!

Architect

Nov 24, 2002, 08:21 PM

Right there with you Charis. I took one look at the game and said to myself we need to attack the Arabs now.

I'm not sure we need both those harbors in Rey and Birka. First priority should be attacking arabia and getting her luxuries online. Harbors gains very little in those cities as they are still growing. I'll probably leave the harbor in Birka just to hook up the luxuries.

Should be a fun turn... wish me luck.

JaxomCA

Nov 24, 2002, 08:35 PM

I took the time to open the save game and I see you point Charis. No need to go in disorder though. Pillaging the game tile and one other non bonus grassland will let us configure Bergen to 1spt at size 5. This will gives us about 60 turns until the palace is completed. Ideally it would complete the turn after we get to literature on our own. We can also set research to 50% and get literature in 22 turns at -5gpt for 4 turns and then at -1 gpt. That will leave us quite poor but with a good shot at getting the GL.

I agree with Architect about harbors, we need only one for now and Birka could really use it.

Have fun Architect and get us closer to the fabled malted liquor :)

Iteean

Nov 24, 2002, 08:57 PM

Ouch, you are painfully correct about the urgency of attacking Arabia, Charis. I was focusing too hard on the GL. My explorations were a hedge against an AI stealing the wonder from us. In a recent game, an AI stole it from me with a leader and it made me too cautious perhaps. :) Didn't want to risk the whole game on the GL. Sorry for dropping the ball on that one.

We'll almost surely get a foothold though, since the culture of Mecca will shrink if the Celts get it. I had no idea they had such a good UU! :cry:

Good luck, Architect!

Iteean

Architect

Nov 24, 2002, 10:36 PM

550BC (0) Switch the harbor in Rey to a galley costs us a total of six sheilds. I go down to one MP in Bergen, Stockholm, and Rey and bump luxs to 30% in the process. More troops means more gains. I switch stockholm to swordsman will rush in a turn or two. I rush a second galley in Oslo. I trade Mathematics to the mongols for their wm and 87g. I'm going to assume we get all our techs from the GL. Gotta love those gambits. I also want cash in case we have to run at a deficit while our boys are invading.

530BC (1) The Koreans begin the great wall. Two archers land on incense hill. I discover that Arabia actually has four cities. One is over by Agedincum. I adjust Bergen to complete the palace in 26 turns. We are at +0gpt. I go ahead and trade map making to the ottomans for their WM and 27g.

510BC (2) Rey goes into disorder. Whoops... Spearman and horseman land on incense hill. Two swordsman load into galley which moves around the "backside" of mecca. Our second galley unloads two warriors into Trondhiem and boards a Horseman and spearman.

Here is our invasion forces:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5invasion.jpg

I veto my own galley in Trondheim and switch to swordsman. Abu insists we leave, we declare war!

490BC (3) We land two swordsman and move our remain forces off to incense hill. Next turn we attack Mecca. The Clets have destroyed the far flung Arabian city and Medina has already fallen too. its going to be a race for Damascas. Korea declares war on the celts. Hmmm..... I watch the AI move a spearman from Mecca to go defend Damascus..

470BC (4) I'm going to try to take Mecca with archers and horseman first and then move the swordsman right next to Damascas.

We kill two regular spearman and lose an archer. There is still an archer defending and I'm gonna have to attack with a swordman to ensure victory. We take mecca and gain control of the incense.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5mecca.jpg

I start a harbor in Mecca.

I move our remaining swordsman to the hill outside Damascus and the celts are on the outskirts and will attack next turn...

The celts are about to discover the Mongols so i decide to sell contact with everyone. I sell Contact with the Mongols and spanish to the celts for 458 gold and their world map. The GL gambit continues... I sell Contact with the ottomans, Arabs, and Koreans to the Spanish for their WM and 161 gold. I sell the remaining contacts around and we have 858gold now. We could run a -10gold deficit now getting the GL in 20 turns as opposed to 26. I decide against it. Gonna be interesting.

450BC (5) Damascus launches an offensive against the celts and defeats the horseman. The celts counter attack and now two spearman and 1 horseman will attack next turn. I move 2 swordsman, 2 horseman, and 1 spearman into position for an attack next turn. Stockholm produces a settler next turn. Let's hope I can get it over in time before the celts claim anymore land. Mecca starves next turn, we have no choice. The celts defeat the arabs.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5arabsdie.jpg

430BC (6) We didn't get the Dyes and now we find ourselves in a very interesting position. Our proximity to Damascus and the AI desire to "complete" continents suggests that while the Celts are currently polite with us, this will not last long. I think we need to press on with our offensive and attack the celts. If we don't, we will be attacked soon enough and have to defend mecca from a prepared AI vs. one that is right now attacking the koreans too. I establish and embassy with Korea. I attack the celts.

410BC (7) We take Damascus losing 2 swordsman in the process. We have 2 spearman, 2 horseman, and 1 swordsman defending Damascus. We are about to be attacked by 2 archers and a spearman. Damascus holds. There are now 3 horseman, an archer, and a spearman outside Damascus.

390BC (8) I upgrade two warriors to swordsman as there is a celt vessel approaching our homeland. I goes poorly in damascus. We lose 2 spearman and 2 swordsman. There are now 2 horseman defending.

370BC (9) I attack and kill a spearman and an archer. There are now 2 archers outside Damascus. I move a final archer to Damascus to try and hold it for one more turn. Spain has discovered the Carths. We hold Damascus for now!!!

350BC (10) I move 2 horseman from Damascus to Mecca to heal and move 2 swordsman into position holding Damascus for now. We need to get as many swordsman as we can over to the Celtic continent. I am producing spearman so our swordsman can be used right away and stop defending. If we can get Medina somehow we will control most of the Dyes. This could be huge later on. We are 20 turns from Lit, 17 from Palace. We now have 2 elite horseman. Let's try to get a leader. We maybe have 2 turns before the celts launch a counter attack with at least three horseman. Here is the great Viking Nation.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5350.jpg

Roster:

Architect
Charis <-- UP
JaxomCA
Arathorn
Falsfire
Iteean

Here's the save:

350BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5-vikings-350bc.zip)

JaxomCA

Nov 25, 2002, 12:55 AM

The crowd cheers our great general Architect! Bar owners are already making shelf space to store the soon to be acquire fabled malted liquor. A Viking warrior got sick by drinking a mixture of incense and wheat and dropped his mug in a fire. Nearby women were quick to notice how good the incense smell is at masking the men's odors. Viking women are already discussing next season fashion, arguing over what color will be in, thanks to the new found dyes. The Viking army is praising our general, as in true Viking spirit, not only did he betray the Arabs but the powerful Celts too! We are not afraid, the drunken Gallic swordman can come running, we will destroy them!

On a more serious note, :goodjob: Architect, but was it necessary to do 2 ROP rapes? I am not sure how much of an impact it will have long term, but our short term reputation is definitely toast. Not that I mind too much, it makes for a better story that way :)

Did you check with Korea if they would have paid something for an alliance? Not that it matters much, we are in a very good position to grab the GL. I doubt the isolated Carthage will research and build the GL before we do.

850 golds? Nice war chest, that should pay for a few rounds of malted liquor :)

Overall, kudos, Songs will be written about your feat!

Charis

Nov 25, 2002, 01:51 AM

Oh MY!!!! Very well done on the capture of Mecca, ouch on the timing on Damascus,
and :eek: on the Celtic war! I was thinking Mecca was the foothold we needed,
while we ride the GL coattailas to Invention and Berzerkers, when we SWEEP through
the now-Celtic land with Berzerkers on offense and Pikes on defense. Instead it's
swords and spears vs Gallic Swords. If I can survive this turn with Damascus intact,
it will be a victory - that's my first impression.

[ I leave this next paragraph in, as it was written before something that
happened on my turn, which makes it quite ironic. Pay this no attention! :P ]
One comment on our war vs Arabia. Landing on their territory FIRST and then making
them tell us to leave and take the declaration of war this way was a totally
unneccessary hit to our reputation, a 'dastardly' act if you will. A small
one, but one with zero benefit over declaring with no one in their territory
then landing on the hill and moving our galleys in place. It shouldn't really
affect us, but I wanted to point out the small hit.

[0] 350 BC - Preturn
- I notice something which might be absolutely critical...
Celts have NO IRON!!! Gallic swords, their mainland vs our colony, would just
chew us up and spit us out. But that's why they're using just archers and horses!!
- Korea has 1 iron, no extra, same for Ottomans, Mongols (lux captial of the world)
has one extra, so does Spain (but unconnected)
- Histogram shows Mongols and Celts on top, Koreans so-so, Spain and Ottomans in trouble.
F11 shows Carthage (who we don't know yet) with top city. Trondheim number 5.
- The Great Wall in progress is in a fishing village in Korea, and a low-shields
spot in Celts land. NO COMPETITION for the wonder! Great!
- We can cut back to 20% lux with just a specialist in Burka, but that slows sword
production, and we're more dire for troops than cash right now. Keep at 30%.
In fact, a small troop difference could lose our whole island. We fire all entertainers
and push it to 50% at least for the next few turns! With higher lux I can cycle Bergen
workers to give +1 food for 2 round matched by moving a cattle to sea for a turn,
this will get the needed slowdown to exactly match our literature research.
- Given the war situation, Copenhagen switches from harbor to barracks. It will want
the harbor after the war, also a temple
- We buy Korea's world map, and see where Carthage is (deep South). Sell WM around
Good news is, Carthage has no strong 'shield' cities to speak of at all!
- We lack some embassies, and I need more options - we buy one in Mongolia
Karakorum has 7spt, a rax and temple, working on a catapult. Verified 2 irons.
Madrid 10spt, only a granary, making non-vet swordsman right now.
Istanbul, home of the Oracle is making... wealth! 12spt.
- Will the Mongols, sole civ with extra iron, ally vs the Celts? Yes, but for 500 gold!
That sounds expensive, but... having the two top civs angry at each other is a
Very Good Thing(TM) :P Lowering our sliders to raise our apparent income, I swing
it as a gpt deal - 20gpt and 152g. That would make Celts in THREE wars.
It's expensive, but I think the right move to keep us from ever seeing the Celtic UU.
With this 'support', it's conceivable that we might press down to Baghdad, a lower
chokepoint, that pulls in even more dyes and area. It could conceivable help Spain,
currently fighting the Mongols. I do it! Mongols are now gracious! We're locked
in for 20 turns vs the Celts (unless Mongols hurt their rep and take peace early)
* We'll be running a deficit during this war because of this alliance, until
the Mongols make peace with the Celts or for the next 20 turns.

[1] 330 BC - Two horse move up to Damascus, the wounded archer retreats.
Where now does the settler go? With Mecca in hand we don't need it, or
want it, on incense hill. Keep it in reserve? Or found a fishing village
west of Mecca? The problem with the village... it's SO close to our capital
that it would kick several core cities deeper down the ranked list of closest-
to the capital. Although I don't like to, I'm going to save the settler for now.

At Damascus, the first horse retreats, and we defeat the second but get hurt.
Our sword from the hill goes to hunt down the wounded horse.

Midturn - not good, they kill our exposed sword and move up more horses to Damascus!

[2] 310 BC - Sword in west kills horse and promotes to elite.
At Damascus, with our foes having 2 attack and 1 defense, we press the attack.
The first one is a nail-biter, elite vs elite and we start with early damage, but
prevail. With no other defender there, can't afford to have the last sword attack
though.

Expedience suggests a harbor whip now in Mecca. The incense will make the people
back home, who long for malted beverage, somewhat happier. And we can get to
making spears or even swords at Mecca, with imported iron.

Along with this we switch Damascus to warrior, so we can pay-upgrade him.

[3] 290 BC - Midturn we lost our sword and a horse, just one left! 8-\

Our spear and sword arrive via ship from Trondheim.

It's our stack of: warrior, sword, spear, wounded horse, vs SIX horse, and
more likely on the way! This just doesn't look good...

Midturn - Carthage contacts US! (Glad I waited) He wants our world map so bad
he'll give us Philosophy for free for it! If he had any cash I would take that
instead, but as a GL fallback, I won't turn down free tech.

Even better, Ottomans and Koreas ally vs Celts!

We hold vs the first two attacks, then lose our sword... and spear...
They leave us with the elite horse and very wounded sword left.
The other wounded sword walks into town.

[4] 270 BC - Celts sent a few wounded back to heal, but still a stack of SIX full hp,
units including two elite horses, and each round it seems four new ones come
storming out of Medina. We got all the defenders we could scrape together
quickly (including leaving Trondheim open one turn), but now... our
production is not such that we could get ONE unit per turn into position,
and even that after a two turn or so boat ride. If we lose Damascus,
Mecca falls, and our toehold is gone. We have only 9 DefPts*hp to stop them.
A 2hp sword, 1hp sword, and 1-defense horse. Oh btw, no defenders in Mecca.
None. Just our settler. We're about to get shredded.

I need to do something here that isn't nice. Seek peace with an ongoing alliance.
(I can now officially rate the alliance as weed on my part, I didn't expect THIS
many units coming at me)

But it's an "RBE" game, and I need to check the rules... This is not listed
as an exploit, nor is it in spirit an 'exploit'. The alliance was meant as
real, and I paid good money for it. The crushing Celtic response has changed the
situation to where we must take peace now. It is dastardly, and probably more
so than the "sneak attack" we already pulled. Our reputation is not going to
be in great shape after this. I hope now even more that we get the GL and don't
have to trade for the next 9 techs or so!! The fact that the Mongols are already
known to be backstabbers (so says our foreign advisor) makes this less painful.

Will Brennus even talk with us - it's been short war so far?
Yes, good. How much does he want? FREE???!
WTH - He'll give **US** our choice of one tech - Currency, Code of Laws, Construction?
Wowza! Brennus really doesn't even look mad in the animation... odd...
In fact, Currency and Code of Laws is 'close to a deal' and for a nominal one-time
cash fee, he'll throw us both. Tech and near-free tech... works for me!

If I thought we could make progress past Damascus I would continue. At least now
we have the choice of a 20 turn military build up and redeclaring. We take the
peace and the tribute of two techs.

Celts will take gpt from us, so it's NOT a "blackened" rep.
The Mongols are ticked, and will not accept any gpt from us.
Every other civ will! It seems only the Mongols were hurt by our move (true)
and so only they distrust us. (Still... I feel... dirty :P I guess I like
'reputable' rules. I almost want to give back the rest of the gpt for the alliance
that the mongols were to receive. Ironically, it's very likely he would have made
peace and screwed us before 20 turns.)

I give Temujin a free gift of our world map to ease my guilt, expecting derision.
He actually goes from Furious to Annoyed? Hmm... We sell the map around, Spain pays 2gpt.

[5-7] 250 BC through 210 BC - Delightfully quiet turns.

I notice Burka is making a non-vet sword and swap him to temple.

[8] 190 BC - Send down another sword, spear and worker to the island.

[9] 170 BC - Ok, I've got Bergen adjust to perfection. Literature due in 11 turns,
Palace in 12, growth in 19. Lux at 10%, sci at 10%.
No specialists anywhere, everyone is working.

[10] 150 BC - Worker en route to island

There are a few temples and harbors going, feel free to swap all those to
swords or spears to better barricade the island!

Phew! We survived, with three free techs and a little soot on us.

JaxomCA <-- Up, 20 turns
Arathorn <-- On deck, 10 turns

Save game 150BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5-vikings-150bc.zip)

Good luck!
Charis

Epilogue - there was a reason the Celts wiped the Arabs off the map, they have a large and effective army. We made out well, but I think we got lucky that the Celts sought peace so easily, likely due to being in about 4 wars. If they refused to see our envoy, we would be kicked off our colony right now, no question about it.

Yndy

Nov 25, 2002, 03:47 AM

Those last 20 turns were one of the most exciting reads I had in the last weeks.
I guess it's your way of telling it with me imagining the whole situation and the fact that you were right on the edge there.

I imagine you feel sorry for the dastardly acts. But on deity sticking to the honorable rules is a gamble which sometimes is too much. I think it's good enough that you only use it when at maximum risk.

In my games I'm sticking to a modded honorable set of rules which gives me some more space while keeping the spirit of the game. I too had to break an ongoing alliance and felt ban but since i didn't plan it and don't intend to do it again I feel that the rep hit i took balances the action.

However, Architect's limited ROP betrayal was unnecessary.
Good luck

Iteean

Nov 25, 2002, 05:55 AM

Taking the fight to the Celts? :lol: That's initiative! Quite an exciting few turns there.

As for breaking the military alliance, is it typical for only the civ you betrayed to refuse you gpt and such? I was under the impression everyone started treating you differently. New PTW behavior perhaps?

Iteean

Architect

Nov 25, 2002, 08:11 AM

None of my moves affect reputation in anyway that I am aware of. The only move that's affected our rep is the breaking of the alliance with the Mongols which I consider weed evening signing them up. The Celts were already as distracted as they were ever going to be attacking the koreans on a different island.

Since when is attacking a civ with no ROP in their territory a ROP rape guys? We did not have a Right of Passage. Does ROP stand for something else?

That's called a sneak attack its not exploitive and its not going to affect our reputation significantly. Maybe there is some weird Epic rule about this being unfair to the poor AI, but I know its not exploitive.

If RBE2 taught me anything is we will never hold onto our footholds without being more offensive. We should spend the next 20 turns building up military only and taking it to the celts. We should then march right up to Medina and attack them.

What was everyone thinking we were going to do with Beserks? I thought we were going to sail right up to their coastal cities and attack.

JaxomCA

Nov 25, 2002, 08:38 AM

Architect, your move was not exploitative at all, but the AI does consider it a ROP rape if you declare war with any military unit inside their territory, even without any ROP in effect. Under RBE rules, it is simply dastard.

Now with Charis breaking an alliance, I guess the path is decided, we are the dastard Vikings, terror of the sea! None shall trust us and eventually, all shall fear us!

Shall we make it rule? Any wars will require one dastard act on our part. That would allow to check if there is any changes to how rep is handled.

Oh and consider this my got it.

Architect

Nov 25, 2002, 08:54 AM

Oh, and BTW, JaxomCA you should only play 10 turns.

Oppps, missed the mid-turn JaxomCA post about Epic rules...

So you are telling me if I sign an ROP, move my troops into position and attack in the same turn 10 cities the AI considers it the very same to walking up to one city, outside of an ROP and attacking?

Where's the proof for this? I think this is Civ III lore.

This game is not an Epic. We all agreed not to use exploitive tactics as defined by the Epic rules. Everything else is fair game. I'm able to control myself enough not to do anything outside of the rules and break the spirit of the game. The arab attack was just what I would expect viking attacks to be like. We just landed and took what is rightfully ours. The celt attack was completly opportunistic, another viking characteristic. Let's try to play the rest of the game without a bunch of rules lawyering going on.

Don't do anything that breaks the spirit of the game or is exploitive with-in the rules of the Epics. We also shouldn't foolishly break gpt deals and peace treaties either as that will just make it harder for us to deal with the AI. Play smart, have fun, quit worrying about if something is dastardly or not.

Arathorn

Nov 25, 2002, 09:16 AM

Umm...interesting turns to say the least. I like the fact that we have a toehold on the main continent and a second luxury. I don't like the implicit RoP rape (twice) as there was little to be gained from it [and, yes, it does cost rep. Or at least it did in Civ3, I've not verified in PTW.]. Peace now is, I think, a very good option.

I will be away starting tomorrow morning for slightly more than a week. I will not have any consistent access to the web or to Civ3, so consider me skipped. I will check the boards this evening, and if it's my turn, I'll take it and play. If I've not posted by about midnight (CST) tonight, I'm AWL (Absent With Leave) and will hopefully jump back into the rotation in a little over a week.

Did we get the FP message yet? Damascus as FP?

Arathorn

Charis

Nov 25, 2002, 09:29 AM

Sorry to sound rulemongerish here, but since I haven't played with you (Architect) before I just don't know what's in your normal 'set' of manuevers, and what you try to avoid. I don't want to see any 'rules' added to this game beyond 'no exploits'.

The declaration within AI territory is a "Sneak Attack", nothing more. Not an exploit, and in this game is fair game. It WILL have a reputation impact, but is just not in the same category as RoP rape. The fact that the Celts will take gpt from us suggests that Brennus thinks "I would sneak attack you too if we have the chance". My concern in bringing it up was twofold - i) unsure if you know that saying 'No' to 'Get out' is in fact a sneak attack, and ii) I didn't at all see the advantage gained by doing it, ie was it a 'needless' sullying? If it was important to get to his cities and attack one round earlier, than it was 'useful'.

It would be nice to know with some certainty the effects of the various non-reputable actions, and WHAT civs they effect. (Like Mongol alliance break, seeming to just affect them)

> Let's try to play the rest of the game without a bunch of rules
> lawyering going on.

Roger that.

I agree that signing the alliance was :smoke:
Taking peace when I did was not. The whole island was lost if I didn't. Of course, mil buildup and reconvene in 20 is still an option.

> Now with Charis breaking an alliance, I guess the path is
> decided, we are the dastard Vikings, terror of the sea! None
> shall trust us and eventually, all shall fear us!

The AI still trust us to a degree more than I would have expected, and I don't plan on doing these kinds of actions without need. Opportunistically? Maybe ;)

I'm not sure you caught the KEY point of the alliance in the first place, denial of Celts of Iron from Mongols. If Celts trade for Iron, we're also toast on that Island, pre-Invention. (Having played Gallic swords with devastating effect, from the other side of the fence)

> What was everyone thinking we were going to do with
> Beserks? I thought we were going to sail right up to their
> coastal cities and attack.

That was my impression, although if we have a foothold and an objective like Medina/Baghdad, they can walk too :P

Charis

PS If the Celts make peace with everyone, they WILL seek a military target. If we look vulnerable, ie not a huge garrison in Damascus and good defense in Mecca, the target will be us. It'll be better for us to choose the timing then them if that happens. And again I hope they have no iron at that time.

Arathorn

Nov 25, 2002, 09:42 AM

Charis, I think you're overestimating the value of the gallic swordsman since you ran it to such great effect. A gallic costs 50 shields, which is equivalent to one horse and one archer or one sword and one archer. That's quite a bit of money. The 6 horsemen stack you saw would've been 3 (or 4) gallics, which certainly doesn't have any MORE offensive potential than the horseman stack.

As for the alliance being :smoke:, I don't think so. Having the Mongols and Celts hate each other can only work to our advantage. Yeah, breaking the deal is probably gonna be an ouchie at a few points along the line, but everything was right (or at least very defensible) at the time it was done.

My $.02,
Arathorn

JaxomCA

Nov 25, 2002, 09:47 AM

I have opened the save game and tested the waters about deals. Strangely enough, only the Celts and the Spanish will accept gpt from us, everybody else 'will never accept such a deal'. Playing around with ROP deals, they would all accept at the new outrageous PTW cost for ROP. It seems the only rep hit we have is about the broken alliance.

Isabella would give the Republic if we declare war on the mongols. It is tempting but the timing is a bit off. It may not be a good idea to revolt before we have a reasonable defense on Celtic lands.

I won't play my turn for a few hours, I'll check back before I do to see any inputs about Republic.

Charis

Nov 25, 2002, 10:05 AM

I do agree that ALL actions taken seemed right to the player at the time, and the result of each action has been quite good so far!

Jaxom I think you're incorrect about gpt on the save file. I looked after the break, and if I offer 2gpt for anyone's world map (except Mongols) they WILL take it, Celts included. Whether they value 1gpt as nearly 20gold or closer to 10 gold is another question!

I'll stick with my Gallic assessment Arathorn, although admit it's kind of early in PtW to be able to make good evaluations with any certainty. But with Deity production discounts, the *2* defense of the Gallics, their ability to retreat, to move up to Damascus and hit the same round, and 3 attack strength, I think four GS would walk all over us with four defenders, while six horse have closer to an even chance, or less. I'm not seeing the "it's cost is so high" having as big an impact in the RBP1 game as expected, and we get no Deity discount :P

Jaxom - wow, declaring war on Mongols, now we're REALLY getting into the ruthless Viking spirit, aren't we?! We'll get it free in ~20 turns from GL (if things go as planned) so don't stretch hard for it. But sheesh, they'll give us that tech JUST for an alliance?? I assume you have no intention of actually providing any REAL aid to them, right? Splitting our efforts would cost us the Mecca colony I would surely think. Now I happen to view even wars-in-name-only as beneficial for those who hire us, but I've read that if you have zero combats or pillage actions vs the allied-foe, your image or rep with the allying civ will take a hit (likely a small one, not sure?) Is it something that I think the Vikings would do in this game? In a heartbeat! Lets drag the whole world down into war, and slow the tech pace so our zerker advantage will last longer :P

Charis

JaxomCA

Nov 25, 2002, 10:39 AM

Charis, try something bigger, like polytheism. Spain will accept a deal for 15 or so gpt, all others want only cash upfront. The Mongols won't offer anything for help against Spain, I wonder why?

Of course I have no intention of taking units to Mongolia, not that we are afraid, no sir, it just seems our army is more motivated when stirred toward Entremont. Now if it would turn out that the Mongols are growing plants with strange effects, this may change :)

hotrod0823

Nov 25, 2002, 11:15 AM

In Civ 3 vanilla moving into and attacking without prior declaration is considered a broken ROP. It happened to me in Epic 11 when I moved into Zulu territory and attacked the next turn. Without declaring first. There was no ROP in place but on future negoiations with Japan I think they wouldn't even consider a ROP because I broke one with the Zulus. I was sure I never signed the ROP with the Zulus but the AI "believed" I did. A rep hit that really only effected how future ROP were handled.

This also came up when I did the same thing in LK34 vs. Japan. Lee got on it pretty quickly and I plead my case there as well. Dastardly yes, exploitive no, possibly a rep hit. In LK34 it didn't matter, we were so far ahead it was really a none issue, at deity I am not so sure.

Hotrod

just my 2 cents

JaxomCA

Nov 25, 2002, 12:42 PM

Architect, I missed the edit to your post earlier. It appears I have annoyed you somehow, believe me it was not my intention. I was mostly pointing out the consequence to some of your moves. I realize now I have used too strong a term to describe them but there is no question about the consequence part. Just for the fun of it, I asked Brennus for a ROP after he asked me to remove our troops from his territory, here is his reply:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/brennus_sneak_attack.jpg

So this is not simply some CIV III lore. But I agree with you, this is in Viking spirit all the way.

Now, if my attempts at making a 'story' out of this game is annoying to any of the players on the roster, just say so and I'll shut up. Otherwise, just remember to read my posts in the 'spirit' of the Vikings and everything will be fine.

Charis

Nov 25, 2002, 01:52 PM

That's an interesting screen shot of Brennus, and he even uses the term "sneak attack" literally. Not wanting an RoP with you means that he doens't trust you to not sneak attack. It still isn't clear whether the anger generated is on par with if you had an RoP in place and sneak attacked.

> Charis, try something bigger, like polytheism. Spain will accept
> a deal for 15 or so gpt, all others want only cash upfront. The
> Mongols won't offer anything for help against Spain, I wonder
> why?

The Mongols just don't want to ally with us, simple.

For Polythesm, interesting indeed! Carthage won't take a gpt for that, but will take gpt for a map? Spain, and more interestingly, the CELTS will take gpt from us for tech. Could it be that... if you break a deal with someone's enemy, they LIKE it? Sorta like a nuke, those at war with who you nuke actually like you better rather than nuke you. In this game, Spain and Celts are at war with Mongols! Alternately, if when peace comes, Spain and Celts STOP taking gpt from us, it would mean that Temujin simply has not 'told' them of our 'betrayal' yet, and that when peace is made he will - should be interesting to see if that happens or not.
Ottomans don't have a tech to sell, so I'm unsure of their response.

Or perhaps there is a separate anger level for "we won't take your gpt for ANYTHING" vs "we won't take it for cash or tech upfront deals, but will do so for ongoing things like lux or resource purchase"

Charis

Architect

Nov 25, 2002, 02:34 PM

JaxomCA:

I know the sneak-attack affects our rep, but I was questioning if it was as bad as a real ROP violation. If it is then that's news to me. I not a big fan of ROP so I've probably just never come across the situation. Now it if affects our ability to trade for tech in GPT long term then I think that's silly. BTW, I wasn't frustrated or angry and you I was just reacting to everyone acting like I'd cheated or something throwing around the term ROP betrayal etc. I think the whole ROP thing is way overblown and the real deal is if you sign a ROP, move troops into a civ and attack, that's ROP rape. Anything else is just military tactics. If the epics have nit-picked what is and isn't ROP rape to death, no wonder Sirian's about to explode...

Charis:

Unfortunately we still have no good insite into reputation as evidenced by your speculation. Its too bad we had to break that deal with the mongols because now we'll not be able to determine the real impact a sneak-attack has in PTW.

JaxomCA

Nov 25, 2002, 02:51 PM

Preturn: I take Isabella up on her offer and declare war on the Mongols for the Republic, because we are the Viking! (And it is hard to pass up on the most expansive tech of the Ancient Times.) With the Republic, she agrees to gives us her 21 golds and 2gpt.

Wang Kon expresses interest in our resources. He offers 17gpt for our horses and incense. He will not gives us his 93 golds at any price though. I change all town to train horseman (loosing 7 shields in Birka, I didn't feel the temple was needed there), except for Mecca and Damascus who trains spearman. Then I sell our horses and incense to Korea. The population immediately calls for my death but importing Korea's gem for 8gpt restore some form of order. Wang Kon wanted to hear nothing about our hard cash.

[list=1]
130 BC Ottoman and Celts are buddy again. Everybody is annoyed with us but Wang Kon who is cautious.

Interturn, Brennus tell the degenerate Viking to leave his territory, I ask him for a ROP and some liquor, see his reply in my previous post :)

110 BC ...

90 BC Oh oh, the Celts and Mongols made peace too. I ask Brennus to remove is smelly troops from our territory, he had this to say:
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/brennus_insult.jpg

Wang Kon and Isabella know about Literature. MM Bergen to finish palace in 2 turns. On the next turn I will have to buy Literature. Oslo and Trondheim produce horseman and train swordsman.

70 BC Literature is bought from Isabella for 150 golds. Research is completely shut off. Carthage and Korea start on the Great Wall, Mongols start on the Hanging Gardens. Korea start on the Great Library in a low shield town. I could investigate the city but at this point there is nothing we can do about it. Our GL will complete in 14 turns or become the most expensive Forbidden palace ever built :)

50 BC Viking sailors stick their tongue out while sailing near a Mongol city, does that count as help to Isabella? Some good news and some bad news. The good news is, the Great wall completes and Korea cascade his GL in a one tile island. The bad news is, the Celts built the Great Wall.

30 BC Reykjavik trains a horseman, start on a marketplace for now.

10 BC The Mongols start the Great Library in a jungle town. There are many ruins in Spain, Isabella looks like she could use a drink.

10 AD Isabella and Gengis made up, the stain is on her. :) Gengis would talk peace if we throw in 100 golds, I refused, I don't feel threaten by the Mongols yet.

30 AD More swords hit the field. Viking sailors are still teasing Mongolian troops.

50 AD Korea starts on the Hanging Gardens.
[/list=1]

The Great Library will complete in 8 turns if all goes well. There are 7 swords, 4 horses and 4 spears in Damascus. 2 more spears will be ready soon on the big island, a couple of horses and swords were left behind for homeland defense. There is 4 turns left on our peace treaty with Brennus and we are free to make peace with the Mongols whenever is convenient.

Charis, I went back and checked the gpt status after the Mongolian wars stopped. Neither Isabella nor Brennus will take our gpt now. Also not that some of them won't give us cash or take our cash. We better get that GL :)

Oh and somebody should make Brennus eat his insults.

P.S.: You can drop the CA Architect, only the computer need to know that :)

Here is the save at the end of 50 AD. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5_vikings_50ad.zip)

Edit: I almost forgot, we have the Republic but didn't revolt yet. I wanted to get a decent military out first. I think we should wait until after the upcoming war with the Celts before revolting.

Architect

Nov 25, 2002, 03:30 PM

Roster:

Architect
Charis
Jaxom
Arathorn <-- Plays and posts tonight or is skipped by request.
Falsfire <-- On Deck
Iteean

Arathorn

Nov 25, 2002, 03:38 PM

I got it and there's a pretty good chance I'll be able to play tonight. My 10-turn goals:

- Become a Republic (even with war weariness, it's a much better cash miser than despotism. Plus, the fewer cities we have, the fewer turns of anarchy we'll see, on average).
- Take war to Brennus? We'll see.
- Finish the Great Library.

Arathorn

Architect

Nov 25, 2002, 03:51 PM

I'm not certain we want to switch to republic at all. If we are really going to take it to the world at the time of invention and we get the great library, I think Monarchy is a better choice.

I say we stay that way until our beserks are rendered ineffective. Not having to deal with war weariness and being able to slaughter our own troops without happiness consequences will be nice for an extended military campaign. Plus we will have luxury issues (with only 2 likely) and currently have no marketplaces and few temples. If we can keep most of the world at war we may just be able to slow everything down extending the life of our Beserks.

One other point I thought of on the way home today from work: Could the Mongols even trade Iron to the Celts? According to the save the Carths have the Great Lighthouse and the only path I see between the Mongols and the Celts requires the use of a sea square. No iron is going to the celts unless the Carths give it to them and even then do they have a path w/o ocean (haven't looked a Jaxom's save)? Something to consider for future wars for sure. I hope the celts are iron screwed until at least Astronomy. :D

Arathorn

Nov 25, 2002, 10:39 PM

(0) 50 - Arathorn wishes to revolt but is stopped by the actions of his advisors. They point out that a revolt might be disasterous for the completion of the Great L.... whatever of Bergen. Arathorn grudgingly agrees to postpone the revolt.

Put Reykjavik back on food -- can't grow but can build up some food for the eventual aqueduct. A current 1 gpt investment for the future. Damascus to temple to get dyes into range in our lifetime.

(1) 70 - Koreans start Hanging Gardens. Eh, what's this? Things built and I'm not asked what I want next. Preference change time, I guess.
(I) Cope horse->courthouse. Trond sword->sword.

(2) 90 - We're paying gold upkeep under despotism. That's not quite optimal. I tell the Celts to withdraw. He agrees, insolently.
(I) Mecca spear->sword. Birka revolts. I fix it. Whoops!

(3) 110 - Celts -- still can't order Brennen to leave. Why not? Anyway, he agrees again but will probably do nothing. Still 1 turn on peace treaty, so I delay again.
(I) Stockholm spear -> market. Eventually, we're gonna need cash.

(4) 130 - Declare war on Celts. Capture 3 workers. Troops into position. Fingers crossed. We'll see what their counter-attack is.
(I) Trond sword->horse. Mongols are approaching our western coast. Oslo sword->harbor. Carthiginians begin Library race -- a bit late. The Celts are very helpful, however, moving workers into Medina and a spear/archer pair OUT of Medina.

(5) 150 - Pay Mongols 120 gold for peace. That's better than a landing on our main island, possibly disrupting the Bergen build. It also lets us concentrate full on the Celts.

2 horsemen win their battles uphill and capture Medina. Good PRNG luck so far. Temple (for lack of anything better) begun. Archer, spear, and 2 random horsemen cleaned up. Gonna lose a horse to a spear/archer stack interturn, probably. We do lose a galley battle, though.

(I) Lose a horse and a spear to the counterattack, killing nothing but causing some horsies to retreat. Mongols & Koreans start Sun-Tzu.

(6) 170 - Counter-attack time. Kill two archers and retreat a horsie near Medina. Attack their main stack en masse and kill two spears, a retreated horse, an archer, and that's it for healed units. More on the way and more resting. Pretty good luck/skill so far.
(I) Lose spear covering wounded horse and the horse. Yuck. No good targets next turn, either.

(7) 190 - No attacks. Consolidating stacks and healing.
(I) Attacks luck holds as a horse charges uphill to defeat a fortified sword and a horsie defeats our spear with no damage.
Trond horse->spear. Bergen GL->barracks.

(8) 210 - Kill a horsie, and our luck changes. Full hp elite sword dies to defending archer. Full hp vet horsie dies to defending 2 hp horsie. Vet sword manages to finish off defending archer. Full hp elite horsie dies to 1 hp defending horsie, who promotes. AAAARGGGGGGHHHHHH! Finally, a 3 hp vet sword of ours kills the horsie, but Medina is defenseless. NOT a good turn. Best healing positions for other units.
(I)Lose horse and sword to kill archer and horse. GL time! Polytheism, Monarchy (revolt? Can't in the middle of this war!), Monotheism, Feudalism. And it's done for now.

(9) 230 - Kill 2 horsies and start a few upgrades. More swords left exposed. But it's almost always better to hit offensive units with your offensive troops. MDI and more horsies on the way before TOO long.
Damascus switched to MI, losing a couple shields.
(I) Spain and Korea ally vs. Celts. :) Not sure what Spain can do, but it can't hurt. Sword kills archer and horse on defense before dying.
Damascus MDI->pike.

(10) 250 - Move MDI to cover exposed Mecca. Upgrade to pike and MDI. Still very touch-and-go in the Medina area. The Celts have a couple catapults defended by spears that they use to good effect if you're out of the city. Be wary of that. Our forces should hold for another turn easily and before too long we can hopefully go on the offense again.

We're getting close to getting two cities (Richburough and Gergovia) in tribute for peace. It might be advantageous to take that deal, once we can get it (capturing both 'pults might well be enough) and then hit 'em again in 20 turns. But, that's up to the next leader.

Arathorn

Save file at http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5-250ad.zip

Have a great Thanksgiving everyone and I'll be back next Tuesday (12/2).

Architect

Nov 25, 2002, 11:06 PM

Roster:

Architect
Charis
Jaxom
Arathorn
Falsfire <-- Up
Iteean <-- On Deck

Great job everyone. Pulling off any ancient wonder in Deity is a tough task.

JaxomCA

Nov 26, 2002, 10:48 AM

The new pride of Bergen, the Great Library, brings yet another reason to party. At the Library's opening it became obvious that the Viking people can't read. The curator quickly ordered picture books to fill the shelves. A particularly funny one depicts, based on Arathorn's own account, the Celt soldiers abandoning cities and fleeing from the almighty Viking army. There is still no reports of the fabled Gaelic Swordsman, some say they are fleeing even faster than the regular troops.

The Thrifty was seen with an Architect, passionately discussing plans to a new palace to be built in Entremont. Ragnar got wind of this and forbid the project but the Vikings being who they are, who will listen to him? There are strong rumors we will soon have another form of government and Ragnar may not even be a part of it.

The story of the Viking sailors reached the shore of Scandinavia. It was quickly determine that sticking your tongue out is not a very effective way to hurt the enemy. A freshly trained warrior, direct descendant of Gronar himself, jumped on a galley to demonstrate a more effective method. Unfortunately for him, his ball and chain pierced a hole in the hull and sent the galley to the bottom of the lagoon. After the hearty laughter subsided, the general consensus was that there had to be a better way. A group of yet untrained warriors argued that a bow would be much more effective. Unfortunately, the few bows we possess don't have enough range to be used from a galley and due to the massive deforestation, we lack the wood to produce better bows. So the untrained warriors were sent into the Arabian jungles to find the needed wood. Whether it is their courage or the promise of the Arabian Nights delight that made them go is unclear, but the future looks bright for the growing Viking nation!

Architect

Nov 26, 2002, 05:31 PM

From the 1.14 readme

Added Hwach'a and Berzerk to upgrade path.

So this probably means that archers now upgrade to berserks. What does everyone want to do?

I really can't see finishing this game off without upgrading. Especially if they have fixed the MP issues.

Thoughts?

JaxomCA

Nov 26, 2002, 05:44 PM

If it doesn't affect the save game, I vote for the upgrade.

Iteean

Nov 26, 2002, 07:18 PM

Whew, at least that gamble paid off. Way to go!

Upgrading PTW is fine by me. I've not learned enough about the current version to understand how much it'd change the game. IOW, I don't know what I'd be missing.

Iteean

Charis

Nov 26, 2002, 09:13 PM

No reason not to upgrade. Sort of ironic that we're just about at invention, in a Viking game :lol:

Charis

PS Yes, woohoo on the GL! :goodjob:
Jaxom, I loved your writeup on that, btw!

JaxomCA

Nov 26, 2002, 10:17 PM

The patch comes just at the right time. If we had begun with that patch, we would probably have built archer instead of swordsman and might not have made the gains we did. Once the Celt front is pacified, I think it will be time to crank out archers and galleys so we can go on a rampage when we get invention. I wonder if getting all the sea-side towns will be enough for domination :)

Architect

Nov 27, 2002, 03:45 AM

I will be out of pocket until until Sunday due to Thanksgiving holidays.

Roster:

Charis <-- Only if its before Sunday/has time
Jaxom <-- Only if its before Sunday/has time.
Architect <-- Out until Sunday
Arathorn <-- Out until Monday
Falsfire <-- 24 hours is up - SKIPPED
Iteean <-- Up

If Iteean plays and then Falsfire wants to jump in afterwards that will be fine.

Please patch to 1.14.

falsfire

Nov 27, 2002, 08:06 AM

sorry guys, my internet connection was down yesterday. I will pick up the game after Iteaen.

Iteean

Nov 27, 2002, 08:16 AM

I'll play it this afternoon when I get home.

Iteean

Iteean

Nov 27, 2002, 08:32 PM

Iteean ascends to power once again. My top priority is to get peace soon with the Celts so we can get out of despotism.

[0] 250 AD - Catapult stack disconnects one of our dyes, but we repel all attackers with no losses. Bergen completes Barracks, starts MI.

[1] 260 AD - Troops heal from previous battles. Celts bring a third catapult up to bombard us, but no damage done. I really want those things, they'd be useful to us.

Trondheim completes MI, starts MI. Oslo completes MI, starts Pike.

[2] 270 AD - Road is completed connecting Damascus, speeding up reinforcements to that city. Defeat the stack of two catapults and two spears, losing one horse. The captured catapults score two hits against their former owners. An MI finishes off their last spear and captures the third cat. Ship an MI and worker over to Mecca.

Whip the temple at Birka for 20 shields.

A bunch of horses gather to attack us. Birka starts Courthouse.

[3] 280 AD - MI chases off one horse near Medina. Celts will give Richburough and Gergovia for peace, but Gergovia is so far away it would be impossible to defend. I decide I really want Baghdad, since it has dyes and is a nice choke.

More fighting around the Medina area. A defending spear promotes to elite.

[4] 290 AD - Sword kills archer and promotes to elite. Two MIs attack horses and one promotes to elite.

We lose an elite MI to a horse.

[5] 300 AD - Kill a spear. Celts will now give Baghdad, Agedincu, and Gergovia for peace. I accept, getting his maps for good measure.

Trondheim completes MI, starts Horse. Bergen completes MI, starts MI. Reykjavik completes market, starts pike.

[6] 310 AD - Upgrade elite spears to pikes, and move troops toward Baghdad to block the chokepoint. Time to revolt: monarchy or republic? I'd like to do republic but am afraid we don't have the commerce to keep the populace happy. We revolt and draw 6
turns of anarchy, ouch.

[7] 320 AD - Trade Dyes plus 2 GPT to Wang for Gems. This helps stop the starving we would encounter during anarchy.

Carthage starts the Hanging Gardens.

[8] 330 AD - Deliver MI and a worker to Mecca. I explain to the Celts that a peace treaty is not the same thing as ROP, and tell them to get lost.

Korea and Celts sign a peace treaty. Mecca grows to size 5 and revolts, oops.

Carthage starts Sun Tzu.

[9] 340 AD - I trade iron to the Celts... Just kidding! :D

Celts and Spain sign a peace treaty. Spain starts the Hanging Gardens.

[10] 350 AD - All workers are temporarily moved to the new lands to speed improvements. There's a lot of jungle chopping to be done and we've improved every tile on our original land.

Notes to the next ruler:

We have a couple turns left of anarchy and 15 turns of peace with the Celts. We are also at a stage where we need to decide what the game plan is. Are we going for conquest / domination?

Oh, I didn't build any archer cause I'm still not sure if they upgrade for us. Good luck!

Iteean

rbe5-vikings-350ad (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5-vikings-350ad.zip)

falsfire

Nov 27, 2002, 10:02 PM

Oh well, peace was a good thing for us, THREE CITIES!!! Wow, we must've hurt him good in his opinion to give us three cities.

"Got it", will play and post tomorrow.

I will probably play the game at what I seem to be good at, consolidating our gains and ensuring adequate defense to either deter or crush a future attack against us.

JaxomCA

Nov 27, 2002, 10:50 PM

I have patched PTW and started a new game as the Vikings, in that game it says the archer upgrades to berserk. In our save game, even after the patch, the archer still upgrade only to guerilla, so I guess it doesn't matter whether we patch or not.

I would definately go with the Republic. Monarchy will not give more commerce, it will increase our support fee and it will force us to keep 3 MP in most cities. We may not have much commerce, but what we have will be doubled in republic, and tripled once marketplaces are online. With marketplaces, the 2 luxuries we own, and the 2 we can safely import now, we should have no trouble with happiness for quite a long time. Once a reasonable defense force is assembled on the Celtic border, and we may already have enough units for that purpose, I would switch all core cities to building their marketplace and aqueduct. We still need some temples in the newly acquired cities to expand our territory. I would even skip the aqueduct if we get invention before they are built, most of our cities will not produce any more shields than they already are.

I think all the coastal cities on this map should be enough for a domination victory. As soon as we have invention, we should be cranking out berserkers and galleys and start hitting the foreign coasts, a la Viking. If we stir up enough trouble for everbody, keeping all AIs at war either with or against us, we probably can reach domination before any AI reach Nationalism.

Charis

Nov 27, 2002, 11:51 PM

Iteen, good turn indeed, and taking Baghdad and holding out for 3 MORE cities was a big winner! :goodjob:
Am I the only one who keeps forgetting this game is deity, as far as my outlook or seeing the results?

I agree with Jaxom on all counts -

- In this game, started under old bic, we won't have the archer to berzerk upgrade option
- Republic is likely best - perhaps only slightly so right now, but it will increase greatly with some marketplaces, lux, and higher population. We don't have a big standing army and could use the commerce boost.

I would consider rushing the temple in Baghdad, it's rather close to their capital and only has lvl 1 expansion tiles. That's like having about ten foreign nationals in the city. The catapults are liabilities in that city until our borders expand, they do *NOT* count as troops as far as avoiding flips, we would just lose them.

Domination by capturing all coastal cities, now that's different :P
We're REAL close to Zerks and a sweet Golden Age, guys. Ah, actually, that's another strong reason for Republic, to really juice up the GA. We can't prebuild Zerks but can prebuild ships.
We can use the Celts to promote our first wave of Zerks as we wipe them out.

As far as our amphib assaults, are you thinking to hold the towns (for domination victory, and need to bring several defenders on the ships as well) or to just raze everything off the coast (ships carry 100% zerks, and after a while we'll own the seas because there will be no harbor towns left)

Charis

JaxomCA

Nov 28, 2002, 02:32 AM

Because we are :viking: and :evil:!

Seriously, at deity it should be difficult to hold onto the cities we capture, specially near enemy capitols. We should be able to conquer Korea, Ottoman and Celts relatively easily. So there would not be a big need for defenders there. By that time, we should have built about 20-25 galleys. Regroup and sail west to capture as many Mongols cities as we can in one turn. That might be enough for domination.

Or we start with Genghis, declare war and wait 4-5 turns, send 14 zerks, 3 pikes and 3 settlers on 10 galleys. Break 3, claim the land and make peace, hopefully recruiting Genghis to fight the Celts. This gives us a foothold in Mongolia, so a couple of galleys can start moving pikes to that island while we send the zerks to conquer Celts, Ottoman and Korea in that order. From there evaluate what is needed for domination.

If we start with Mongolia, it might be a good idea to ally with Spain and Korea against Carthage at the same time and keep that war active until we are ready to take on Wang Kon. That way, all AIs will be struck in wars which should slow down research.

Reading this back, I realize we may not have enough time to win before Nationalism is discovered. We need about 20 turns to prepare our strike force, about 10 turns to get a foothold in Mongolia and somewhere between 30-50 turns to conquer the 3 others. It is likely Korea will be in the Industrial Ages by the time we get to them unless we do a really good job at screwing up everybody's research. At this point, the Mongols and Carthage are the tech leaders and Korea is not far behind. So we definitely don't want Korea to talk to the Mongols and Carthage.

Whoa! Quite long-winded :crazyeye:

Nah forget all this. Pillage, raze, destroy :evil:

falsfire

Nov 28, 2002, 11:19 PM

350 AD [0] - Change Stockholm's entertainer to tax collector, they don't need the extra happiness there. Change Baghdad's tax collector to scientist to keep our min science running thru the Anarchy.

360 AD [1] - The Mongols are building Leo's. Otherwise, zzzzz.

370 AD [2] - We learn Engineering, as both Korea and Mongolia have it. Just now I remember we have the Great Library, and the one taxie I changed to scientist cost us 2g. :( We emerge into a Republican government, and Korea completes the Hanging Gardens in Seoul. I change Bergen to build a Temple as w/o Military Police, it needs that to keep it happy. I spend 116g to hurry the pikeman defender in Gergovia (undefended). 20g upgrades Oslo's vet spear to a pike. 76g gets us a spear alot sooner in our remote island colony of Agedincum, since it has no defenders either. I change Trondheim's orders to build marketplace. I then spend 196g and 236g on Medina & Baghdad's temples. We need these suckers in order to have even a shred of culture in these cities...our treasury is now down to 31g, sorry guyz, but we are making 30gpt so it'll come back soon, 'specially with some new marketplaces online soon.

380 AD [3] - Oslo builds pike starts pike...Mongols cascade to (but do not complete) Leo's, probably in whatever city they were building the Hanging Gardens in.

390 AD [4] - Damascus finishes a pikeman, starts another. I u/g the spear in Trondheim to pike, it will go with the pike from Oslo to Gergovia, to give it three pike defenders. Gergovia is, however, still in SERIOUS flip risk. The galley to get there will have to cross through alot of Korean and Celtic waters, so rather that spend what seems like futile effort to garrison a city that's probably going to flip, I reneg on that decision, and will send the pikes over to some of our other formerly Arabian colonies.

400 AD [5] - zzzz...

410 AD [6] - zzzz...

420 AD [7] - Reyk Pikeman-->Pikeman. Our borders pop at Medina & Baghdad, giving us the full 21-tile control around those cities...for now. I veto my own temple in Bergen in favour of a Marketplace. NONE of our cities can grow past size six w/o an aqueduct, for now we can garner an extra happy face by placing a market, which will also get extra income to offset the cost of a marketplace, whereas the temple will only get us a content face, and cost us money.

IT - Brennus is kind enough to move his horses he's been displaying to us out of our newly expanded borders, without me even having to ask. Awww...
Ottomans want to trade territory maps. I instead trade him our WM +11g for his WM, to see a bit more of the world around us...

430 AD [8] - workers work, move the two pikeman shipped down from above onto the hill which is now our territory near Baghdad.

440 AD [9] - zzzzz...

450 AD [10] - an uneventful last turn. Birka cannot stay happy w/o a specialist, but starves with one.

http://www.kaejae-worx.com/~devin/civ3/rbe5/rbe5-450AD.zip

Charis

Nov 29, 2002, 05:50 PM

preEdit -
Looks like I'm up, as it's before Sunday.
A good turn falsfire, now you're up in RBP1 :p

Marshall, you *DID* do something different in this time on the upload, something I suggested earlier -
you used lowercase letters, .sav instead of .SAV - I think that may have been the problem
---

Looking over the state of the nation, things are pretty decent.
Kudos to Falsfire for flip prevention at pivotal Baghdad.
Our GL is active, we hope to get Invention and/or Gunpowder before
education. The world is all at peace (can't let that stay!)
Our mil is weak to Mongols and Carthage, avg to Celts and Korea,
strong to Spain and Ottomans. 43 units, of a mixed of things.

Basically, it's time to get the boats ready that will carry our
proud zerkers to victory! Once we get a few shipful's, the Ottomans
seem rather weak, with a fair amount of land. The Celts of course
will be primary targets, and Korea under early consideration too.

[0] 450 AD - The production orders look real good, I keep most and make
the following changes, mostly just items of 'preference.'
I turn a taxman into a scientist. Trondheim change from horse
to galley, Oslo galley too. (Regular transport are ok, when covered
by vet escorts later, so that the latter get targeted)
Reykjavik switches from Pike to courthouse. I put our tiny barely
defended towns on walls before temples. Birka I take off
starvation diet, shifting a mountain tile to the sea.

[1] 460 AD - Oslo starts harbor.
[3] 480 AD - Carhtage starts Sistine.
Midturn - Celts ask to renew the dye trade. If we would HAVE Zerks ready
to storm in 20, I would avoid making a deal with them, but I'm not sure.
See, something else happened this round, Carthage landed a boat with two
mil units RIGHT next to our small city of Agedincum.
Anyway, I don't want to lock our options, so I pass on the deal.

We master the secrets of Theology, and... Invention!!!! :) (Koreans and Mongols)
The mighty Vikings start producing five Berzerks. (Most will take a WHILE)

I look at Agedincum. Their best units are... a warrior and a merc?! Our
spear might actually fend them off if they do attack?! Maybe the new walls will
hold? No need to flush money down that drain. We'll see what happens.

[4] 490 AD - Midturn the Koreans declare war on the Ottomans, and... no surprise,
the Carthaginians declare war on US! Their numidian comes after us and...
dies! :lol: Alas, we're 1hp, and the warrior finishes us off. The walls killed
the NM but didn't save the city. It's autorazed I think, so what did they gain?
Wait, it's NOT razed?? Did it have culture from the civ we got it from?

This was a case where I ususally buy a tech or two for heavy gpt when I see
them smelling blood, but Carthage had NOTHING to buy.

Hmm, I see a brown ship near Geogovia. But vs a walled pike, if he has no
stronger troops, he might not win there. I must say, I'm rather tempted to
rushbuy a Zerk down there, just for punitive value!

Hmm... that would set off our GA now!? Isn't getting good pre-production
before a war better than only starting to see better production once you're
in the thick of fighting. We can use the phantom war with Carthage to take
a GA since we're in Republic, and use it to crank an invasion force for
our next 'real' war. If Celts get out of line they might see action sooner,
of course. We rush the Zerk in Geogovia.

[5] 500 AD - Carthage did land there, with two warriors and a horse!
Here we go... SPLAT! It's Golden time! Oh, and if you were worried that
we made a regular zerk with no rax there, don't worry, he's now a vet!
Trondheim is getting 23spt now. In counterattack, the pike gets an easy
double victory over the other two and becomes a vet also. Now Georgovia's biggest
threat is a flip. Now that it's grown in importance, and with +95gpt income,
it merits a quick temple then rax.

Midturn - Carthage drops off 3 more *Warriors* in front of the zerker. It's
like waving raw meat in front of a pit bull I tell ya! These clowns are going
to promote us to elite!

Also, we learn the secrets of Gunpowder through our library. Do we have salt?
Yes! On the hill outside Damascus! That's it! Who lacks it? The Celts, who
also lack Feudalism and Engr. The Koreans have salt, but no gunpowder (hmmm...
that might be an opportunity our next leader wants to consider?!)

[7] 520 AD - Korea wants to stop our dyes trade. Well, ok Wang, if you want no
active treaty with us, let that be on YOUR head!!
At Trondheim, to speed up Zerk production, after one turn we swap to a 30 shield
galley, buy finish for 28, then swap back to Zerk. So one gets made every 3 turns.
We're doing a ton of tile swapping each turn to get the most out of our cities.
Finally, we buy Georgovia's rax for about 70 gold.

[10] 550 AD - Ten turns so soon! Thoughts for Jaxom

- NEXT turn, put Mecca back to zero growth, with the deficit he's running
this turn the Zerk will come out in two.
- If you're feeling like fighting is best, by all means declare war on Celts,
either now or in about four turns when THREE Zerks are ready near Mecca.
- If you're NOT, swap zerk production to courthouses, aqueducts and harbors and
use the bonus GA production to kick up our infrastructure
- Pike to musket upgrades are pricey, 60 gold (I looked at for Georgova)
- No one has Education, Mongols have Chivalry (Keshiks), so that's our likely
next tech out of the Library. Wouldn't Chemistry be nice after that?!
- We have three empty galleys at Trondheim and Bergen and one near Celts and Baghdad
There are 3 Zerks in Trondheim ready to rock! We're kinda VERY short on spare
defensive units however. For amphib assaults razing sounds good, capture on
Celts and just plain wipe them out to kill flip chances, they have NOTHING
to offer us for peace this next war coming up.
- We have NO active trades, all is up for consideration
- I was going to say, hurry on Celts before they get Feudalism, but they're iron-less
- Carthage won't talk yet. Let them land more on our shore for us to promote on!
And if anyone else wants a piece of us, tell them to come get some! :P
(Hmmm, keeping one Berzerk home, centrally located on our island, is probably
good to deal with such AI actions)
* Consider a preemptive anti-saltpeter strike at Korea. An amphib invasion at
Namp'o would do it! Three-four zerks and two muskets would take and hold the
city. It's got their only salt! That's three ships worth. In fact I just now upgraded
two muskets, and sent a spear down to cover Trondheim. You could be sailing to
Namp'o the round after next with four berks and two muskets!! (Rush a zerk next round)

I think you'll have fun this turn!

JaxomCA <-- Up, 10 turns, if before Sunday/has time
Architect <-- Out until Sunday
Arathorn <-- Out until Monday
(I wouldn't zip it past here, too much going on)

Save file 550AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5-vikings-550ad.zip)

Good luck!
Charis

Charis

Nov 29, 2002, 09:21 PM

Now that history has advanced several centuries, I thought I would go back and answer the question that plagued us, what would have happened if we stuck with our Mongol alliance and (Charis) didn't break the deal? Then we would see the implications of JUST the two sneak attacks...

270 BC - Same as before, but we do NOT make peace with Celts...

Midturn, four or five NEW units come charging out of Medina, to
join the six in the field. They take Damascus without even getting through
half of their stack. We have but one spear left on the island, and we hope
to mount some kind of defense.

230 BC - We get one more spear to Mecca, found on incense hill and get a
sword there. Midturn we lose one spear immediately, then see the other hold
on and promote to elite vs 3-4 units. Alas, another 4-5 fresh units move up
into position for next turn! We empty out Oslo and Trondheim to try to save
our toehold. One different dice roll and Meccas was easily lost.

210 BC - We survive another counterattack round, and see seven units ready next time.

190 BC - Our defenders were all elite, but not enough of them. Celts capture
Mecca, with a stack of four yet to attack. They move towards "Toehold"
The very road network we built to save ourselves is used against us.
Toehold is autorazed, and the island falls.

110 BC - Koreans start Great Library. With cash flow problems, we can wait a few more
turns to research it ourselves.

90 BC - Celts offer peace for free. In this alternate universe, we don't
break the alliance with Mongols and will let 10 more turns go by.
Several folks start the Great Library now.

50 BC - Alesia of Celts finishes Great Wall.
30 BC - Celts land a galley and attack Trondheim! We slaughter them in counter.
10 AD - Ottomans and Celts come to peace. Mongols and Spain come to peace.
Two more rounds of treaty left... Spain is not doing too well...

30 AD - Midturn leading up to 30AD, ** Mongols and Celts come to peace **

* The Mongols BREAK the treaty with ONE turn left to go!! *
(That too, makes me feel better :P)

The Celts will no longer take peace for free, now that they just face
us and Korea. He wants no less than Oslo!! We offer our whole treasury, not enough!

50 AD - Celts and Koreans came to peace 8-\

90 AD - Hanging Gardens complete, Korea starts SunTzu!
150 AD - Celts land TWO galleys at Trondheim, all horses. We mow each one down,
and take no losses. Now will Brennus talk? No!
260 AD - Koreans start Sistine. Then they demand tribute from us!! We pay, for the test.
280 AD - Lovely, the Mongols demand tribute too! (I'm really starting to like that we
backstabbed them now!) We pay 20g.

Who will trade with us now? Looking to buy Polytheism, we can give Gpt deals to
*EVERYONE* about 11gpt. Even Celtics will take gpt as part of peace deal.
So the PAIR of sneak attacks had no effect on gpt trades.
But ask for a RoP? Mongols say can't be done (may be too pricey), Spain and Ottomans
will give one, but expensive! Celts never, Korea never.

310 AD - We still get the Great Library in this timeline, with next turn: Code of Laws,Poly,Republic,Mono,Feud,Engr,Theo,
and... Invention!

Conclusions-
- The Mongols are sonofabiscuits who got no worse than they deserved :lol:
- A broken alliance is *very* serious to all AI's, who will take no gpts trades or very heavily discounted ones. (What we don't know is what no sneak attacks plus one ally break will do, however)
- We really had no chance to hold the Arabian island, even though Brennus didn't know this and would pay for peace after the capture of Damascus. Specifically, if I didn't make peace we got kicked off the island
- The acknoledged :smoke: was allying with Mongols in the first place. They couldn't sell iron because there was no pathway until Astronomy, when Celts would be gone.
- The AI treatment you get in subsequent deals is probably quite appropriate for non-exploit 'dastadrly' play. We got a nice gain from our three actions, but will pay for it a good chunk of the game. Then again, we're Vikings and can use the "Pointy Stick" approach to research!! :P When is the last time you were in such good shape for military action in 550AD in Deity?!? In a SG, as long as players have common expectations for allowable actions, there's should be no prejudice against bad-boy attitudes and actions (short of exploits we all avoid without saying)

Anyway, I hope this gives us some more data to work with...
Charis

JaxomCA

Nov 30, 2002, 01:59 AM

Looks like Korea will not take our dyes for anything, short of giving it to them, I am tempted to do so. We have a high chance of seeing AI alliance VS us at this point, might as well have them break deals in the process. I will take some time to think about the situation, suggestions are welcome :)

My current plan is to send the galleys to capture Verulanium and Alesia (and the Great Wall), while the ground troops in Arabia capture Richborough and Lugdunum. If I grab a leader, I would save it for a quick forbidden palace in Entremont or make a MI army so we can build the Heroic Epic.

The Mongols and Carthages are too strong, this will be a problem later on. I don't think we can get a domination before the Industrial era at this point, nobody wants to ally vs anybody at any price :(

Charis

Nov 30, 2002, 08:51 AM

Bah, man, you're not talking like a Viking, :viking:
but like a Frenchman! :undecide:

We have the DOMINANT uberforce in the game in our hands straight through to Mil Tradition! Carthage is too strong??? Six warriors, a Numidian and a horsemen, the very best THEY can muster, lie dead at the feet of our now elite units! :hammer:

*GIVE* Korea free lux out of fear??! :eek:
Take it to them, and snag their saltpeter!! Without that they can
do NOTHING!!! With your plan the Celts will probably be nearly gone by the end of your turn, and by the mid-end of the next players turn we could be assaulting Namp'o. The question is... will they have gunpowder by then? If so we've goofed tremendously. The Celts have no iron and no salt and no hope, whether they're killed now or 15 turns from now. Factor that in.

Anything that dares land on our shore will get taught a lesson at the pointy end of a big axe! Keep one or two zerks home, at points where they could hit any spot in one turn, to rebel any such nonsense.

Let the AI's ALL declare against us and get involved in nonproductive wars where all their shields get slaughtered. On Pangaea, without the UU, this would be cause for concern. On this map, with our strength... bring it on!

We need to hurt several civs before Industrial era. Even after that, our Zerkers and cav will work through Replacement parts. Even right before then they will be helpless against amphibious city attacks.

Your war plan sounds good though - on taking it to the Celts. Consider rushing a musket in Georgovia if you do that. Timing may be best in about 3-4 turns when the Zerks at Mecca and Medina and one other spot come out. Whatever turn you do, looking at the silly Celts standing in the open, you'll gain 2-4 workers and kill four or more horses on the very first round.

Allies?? We don't need no stinkin' allies, we're :viking: !
Charis

(PS I'm coming off a deity victory where I had a pathetic and unprepared military, decided not to cave in for a change to a tribute demand, and ended up kicking the AI's rear so bad I was in shock, so if I sound too boisterous, forgive me, and perhaps other teammates will chime in and tone me down!! :p )

PPS I'm VERY curious to hear other input on short-term thoughts for war, as I wonder if I'm blowing :smoke: here or making sense

JaxomCA

Nov 30, 2002, 10:24 AM

Charis, when I said strong, I meant economically. They have many size 12 cities in mostly improved lands. Our only potential trading partner at this point is Korea. Ottoman, Celt and Spain are pretty much out of the race at this point.

I think I know what you mean about kicking deity AIs butt. In my current solo deity game playing as the Ottoman, I had an even drier start than we have here, 4-5 grassland, many hills, many mountains and a whole lot of deserts to share in 4 cities. On top of that, Babylon settled 1 turn before me on the only luxury in sight. Would you believe that I saw red? Well by 600 AD, I have conquered Babylon, reduce Persia to a couple of size 1 towns on remote islands and I am the tech leader. I have built from scratch Leonardo and Sun Tzu and I have rushed Sistine with a leader. Actually, I own all the wonders but the Colossus, and both GL. Is it just me or did something bad happen to the AI under PTW?

In any case, my turn is done. Most will probably not like what I did, but I did it in true :viking: fashion!

550 AD to 640 AD

Once again, Lord Jaxom takes the reign of the Viking fate. Upon his entry in Trondheim, the city of Stockholm immediately revolts, remembering his heavy whip hand. While contacting his good old friends, he finds that the whole world dislike the Viking spirit, shame on them! A short meeting with the generals reveals that some warriors have had enough with the dry diet. They have gone berserk and are now wielding over sized axes. (I have no idea why I thought the berserks were carrying bows.) Still furious at Brennus for his insults about Viking's manhood, even more so now that Isabella refers to us as the "minnow men", Lord Jaxom declares war on the Celts. Another diplomacy call reveals that Wang Kon would agree to ally for about 75gpt, the deal is declined.

550 AD The first war action sees an elite medieval infantry kill a horseman near Mecca securing our back lines. The Arabian troops are ordered to march on Richborough and an elite swordsman dispatch a horseman standing in the way. This battle inspired Healfdene to come forward and he immediately forms a medieval infantry army in Baghdad. The galley from Oslo is sent empty toward Baghdad to pick up Berserks being trained in Arabia.

Inter turn: Many Celt horsemen ride up to Baghdad but don't attack.

560 AD The new army attacks a horseman but he retreats, which comes as no surprise as we all know this is Brennus favorite tactic. The troops are getting into a better position near Richborough, dispatching another horseman, while reinforcement arrive. The 2 galleys in Trondheim are loaded up with 3 zerks and a musketman and sent south to Baghdad.

Inter turn: An archer comes out of Richborough and dies on a medieval infantry, promoting him to elite. Hannibal is suing for peace but he wants 80 golds, I send him back empty handed. More horses move up in the jungle near Baghdad, many of them getting hurt passing by the MI army.

570 AD Catapults send empty mugs at the horseman stack, hitting on target 3 times in a row. The MI army attacks the stack and kills a horseman without getting hurt. The newly promoted MI launches an attack on Richborough, kills a veteran spearman and inspire yet another leader, Inwaaer. He promptly moves back to Baghdad and motivate the citizens to build the Heroic Epic. Another MI kills the last defender and enter Richborough, promoting to elite in the process.

Inter turn: The wounded horsemen are fleeing the scene in true Celtic fashion. New targets ride up to Baghdad. Many Celt galleys are seen on the sea.

580 AD More mugs are thrown at the Celts, 2 out of 3 on target. A horseman is killed by the army and another is sent fleeing. Zerks are trained on the main land and galleys are ordered to carry them.

Inter turn: All the horses move back to Lugdunum, many archers move up to Baghdad. A Carthaginian galley approaches the shores of Scandinavia.

590 AD More empty mugs thrown, hurting 3 archers. The Viking troops butcher the archers, promoting a zerk to elite. A catapult is rushed in Baghdad.

Inter turn: Korea and Ottoman make peace.

600 AD Hannibal drops a body on our main land and a swordsman chop it to pieces. Hannibal now wants 60 golds for peace and I tell him to get lost. Richborough's resistance is broken, offensive troops move forward. A pike in Baghdad is upgraded.

Inter turn: 8 Celtic horsemen moves up to Baghdad, many are hurt by the army.

610 AD Ah! I can surround the horsemen, they can't flee. The cooks are already discussing the best way to prepare horse meat :) Mugs are thrown scoring 3 hits on 4. "Hubba! We want Hubba!" shouts the citizens of Baghdad, and he makes a spectacular appearance on the very first battle. The remaining 7 horses are crushed easily without loss. (The RNG loves me so far!) I have no idea what to do with the leader. Sun Tzu will not provide enough benefits to us. Sistine is tempting as its effect extends beyond a continent. A quick forbidden palace in Entremont would be nice. For now the leader entertains the crowd in Baghdad. We need friends, it is unlikely we will attack Korea soon and they have gunpower already, so I trade our dyes and 2gpt for their gems. This let me reduce the luxury tax to 0, bringing in 32 more golds per turn. The good news is, it looks like the gpt boycott is over. However, they want all we have for an alliance vs Hannibal or Brennus.

Meanwhile, the Berserk force sails within striking range of Verulamium, defended by a single spearman. The town quickly falls to our mighty Berserks! From here we can already smell the malt! The population is ecstatic and preparations are made in Trondheim for the up coming party.

620 AD Chivalry and Education pops out of the Great Library. Since I made a deal for luxury with Wang Kon, I drag him into the war against Hannibal, for chivalry (he doesn't have horses anyway), education and 16gpt. Oh! Now Hannibal is willing to give back Agedincum for peace :evil: Nah, I'll let the next leader decide how dastard we really are.
A couple of horseman are upgraded to Knights.

630 AD The Berserk force reaches Alesia and easily defeats the 2 spears guarding the Great Wall. This city comes equipped with a barrack, a marketplace, a harbor and an aqueduct. The smell of malt is getting stronger. :) The Arabian force march on Lugdunum. Oh great, most AI now have chemistry, it came 1 turn too late :(

Inter turn: Carthages builds Sun Tzu, Korea builds Sistine, end of cascade next turn.

640 AD Empty mugs are thrown at Celtic sailors sticking their tongue out at Richborough's citizens. The Arabian force gets into position to attack Lugdunum.

We can make peace with Carthages gaining back Agedincum but it would hurt our reputation again. I don't think it is worth it. It might be better to send a galley with a pair of Zerks to capture the city and maybe get chemistry for peace. Hubba is still in Baghdad, I believe he should be used to rush the FP in Entremont when we get the city. It might be a good idea to starve down Lugdunum before attacking. There are 4 catapults in the stack and more can come soon. There will be many troops ready on the next turn. The next leader may want to change them to infrastructure but I think we should take out the Celts before getting back to infra.

On this note, Lord Jaxom retires to his quarters, murmuring something about minnow man and malted liquor.

Here is the save at the end of 640 AD. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5-vikings-640ad.zip)

Edit: Fixed the link, sorry about that.

Architect

Nov 30, 2002, 10:24 AM

At least I have an Internet connection here at my Father's house... no civ3 until tomorrow.

Had to check in and see how the glorious vikings were doing. Looks like we are doing very good. I agree with Charis' assesment of our situation and we should do everything in our power to press our advantage. We should start generating leaders soon and the heroic epic remains a priority IMO. Glad to see that sneak-attacks don't affect GPT deals. That would have been stupid and something I would consider a bug or design flaw.

My only regret is we are a republic. One of these days I'm going to do no republic variant or something because we are all too addicted to it. We are going to find out real soon how pansy-ass our people are when it comes to war. Do everything you can to protect our bezerks with muskets...

:D

I will take my turn after Jaxom sometime tomorrow.

Edit:

Wow, I was posting at the same time as Jaxom! Excellent turn sir!

Charis

Nov 30, 2002, 10:59 AM

Well that sure was an interesting turn Jaxom!! :hammer:

And you're right, truly :viking: in nature, so all is good. Besides
even if I would have done a few things differently, how can you argue with *THREE* leaders?!??! (For example, I would have a made that army with two zerks, which can still fit on a caravel, rather than MDI. But that would have taken a few rounds to do and would have missed the extra leader)

I like the idea of FP in Entremont quite a bit, for Hubba Bubba.
Sistine? Good point that it's not just our continent, but... how many cathedrals are we going to have? FP is far better. Heck, I would take a Zerk army over Sistine. (The problem with armies is that if you fill them with all 3, there is no transporting them until you get a frigate much later, as the army itself takes one space, plus one for each component) Question - can an army of zerks amphib assault? I think so, but am not sure. A Knight army would not be bad either, even with just two units in it - 8 to 10 hp and defense 3, move 2.

Bummer on Chemistry's one turn lateness, but yes, let's research it by "Pointy Stick". It's funny that Carthage will give back the city for peace. That thought crossed my mind as a good stopping point for the war. Not that he can hurt us, but so that he doesn't call for a dogpile.

Shoot, too on Korean's quick gunpowder. Still, if they have zero cash to upgrade and don't make muskets in Namp'o *NOW* we still have them. An amphib assault on Namp'o takes the saltpeter that very turn, before they actually have any muskets. For a poor AI, there's a huge different between getting a tech and suddenly having the new units it allows. I'm afraid you were far too generous brining Korea into alliance. We need no ally vs Carthage and are stuck with war unless we want to break alliance (NO!). You made the same mistake of a useless alliance I did - I wish I gave myself this advice many years ago :lol:

Architect, your Republic comment is actually quite funny in my case. Up until RBP1 I don't think I've *EVER* played Republic in a serious game. Never! I was a huge Monarchy -> Democracy fan, or stay in Monarchy for warmongery. Then one of T-Hawks' Epic reports led me to try Republic. The income level is just staggering, and weariness is quite manageable with lux slider, even if you're at war a lot. Look at RBP1 in fact, we're oozing cash, and despite doing things like double-declaring war on two civs in one turn while already fighting a third, weariness is a non-issue. So until now, going "Republic" was a variant thing to do!

Way back in RBD6 SG, we stayed in Monarchy the whole game, and it went well, but our cash flow was just mediocre. The tech pace of the game lagged a bit.

Charis

PS - nice write up as well, Jaxom :goodjob:

JaxomCA

Nov 30, 2002, 11:54 AM

The reasons I made an alliance with Korea:
- while they are allied with us, they don't fight us,
- a dogpile is less likely when you have an ally,
- Hannibal might call for a dogpile on Korea, that would be a good thing IMHVO,
- it takes 10 turns to reach the saltpeter from Trondheim and cannot spare the offense to send there rightnow, so make that 15 turns,
- we will need Korea as a trading partner for techs if there is no all out war.

You are probably right that Korea should have been the first target for the Zerks, but they don't have malted liquor :p

I tried to get Genghis in the war but he wants nothing to do with anything we can offer, so we may have to declare on him to slow down research.

As for weariness under Republic, as long as we face spears and horses that shouldn't be a problem.

Oh, about the army. I wanted all the Zerks on galleys, I expected stronger resistance in the cities I took. MI were there and plentiful and easy to replace compared to Zerks. With all the fights we are going to have, at least in the short term, I figured the sooner we had the Epic, the better. The army proved quite useful at hurting horses on their way to Baghdad, I did not even know an army has a zone of control regardless of the units in it.

Architect

Dec 01, 2002, 09:01 AM

The save link is bad as of 8:55am CST 12/01/2002. Will get it once link is fixed.

Charis

Dec 01, 2002, 12:19 PM

The correct link (found by browsing the upload folder) is:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5-vikings-640ad.zip

Suggestion: do NOT type the name of the file in, it's too error prone.
After you upload, click to browse the New folder, hit the "save time" link twice and it's sorted by order of posting. Your new file(s) are at the top. Right click and "Copy Shortcut" then paste it into your post.

Charis

Iteean

Dec 01, 2002, 04:45 PM

Looks like we are in a solid position to dominate this game. Good job everyone!

The only suggestion I have beyond what's been said... What about an FP in Lugdunum? I think it would be more "central" to the Arabian / Celtic lands, and some Korean cities will be very close as well. I notice we have an army right above it, so we could use up the leader faster and maybe get another.

Not a major deal, but just a suggestion. Is this really deity? :whipped:

Iteean

JaxomCA

Dec 01, 2002, 05:46 PM

Iteean, a faster leader will not be much use to us at this point unless we want to end the cascade now. I think there is only Leonardo left to build with the currently available technology and I am not even sure if it is still available. The next wonder we might want to build is Smith or Magellan, preferably both, and this is still many turns away. I suggested Entremont because if we build the FP with a leader, we may as well build it as far as we need. Besides, it makes for a better story, unless.... hmmm, yes, I can see an angle on a Lugdunum location. :D

Architect

Dec 01, 2002, 08:42 PM

640BC(0) I notice we can trade Theology or Invention to spain for 22g, 10gpt and their WM. I do this for theology now as they will never be a threat. I also trade Theology for 29g and wm to the ottomans. I switch all the celtic entertainers to taxmen. We are now at 108gpt. We lose Alesia to a cultural flip. Ouch.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5cf1.jpg

650AD(1) We take Lug and lose quite a few units in the process. The mongols complete sistene.

660AD(2) Preparing to take Entremont next turn. WW takes its toll. I have to bump luxs to 10%.

670AD(3) The assault on Entremont fails. We actually lose a bezerk to a spearman without damaging the spearman at all.

680AD(4) Entremont falls but our army is reduced to 2 hps. Mid turn a celtic galley sinks one of our galleys losing a musketman and Bezerk.

700AD(5) The resistance in Entremont ends, i'm going to build the FP their now. Taking a flip risk but oh well. We retake Alesia and the Great Wall again.

710AD(6) Moving on Camulodunum. Entremont is desposed.. Bye bye FP, our army, a bezerk, and a musketman. OUCH!!!!!!!! I've always wished that armies would reduce the chance of flipping to zero but that's just a fantasy obviously. What a &*%$#(*# drag.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5cf2.jpg

720AD(7) Moving on Entremont again.

730AD(8) We take Entremont again. We take Camulodnum. Printing Press has been discovered. We can trade ivory to the Koreans now but I wait until we secure the celtic cities. Carthage starts Copernicus.

740AD(9) Moving on Augustodurum. Trade is now opened up with Mongols, Korea, and probably Carthage. We can trade 3 lux for 2 with the mongols but I'm going to leave that to the next leader as we may want to attack the mongols soon.

750AD(10) We take Augustodurum and destroy the solid celts.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5celtsend.jpg

Well I got greedy and paid the price. Must say that's the worst culture flip of my entire Civ3 career. If that would have worked out we would have had two power centers to take on both Korea and the Mongols. Now we are going to have to make do with the forces we have near Korea and take on the Mongols with our troops from the homeland. I was trying to use up the leader in hopes I would get another one and of course that didn't happen either so now we are without a FP. I advise the next leader to look carefully over all build orders and the diplomatic options. I was so frustrated and pissed at the celts with these flips that I just went full force against them and ignored most everything else. I also see I took 11 turns, whoops, another sign of how pissed I was. I really really really hate culture flips.

750ad (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/rbe5-vikings-750ad.zip)

Iteean

Dec 01, 2002, 09:44 PM

Ouch, those were a few bad strokes of luck there. I've always wondered if a city with an FP could flip, so I guess that answers that! Civ 3 games are always educational. :)

Can we build the FP again?

Architect, I can't seem find the save file in the uploads folder. Can you try uploading it again?

Iteean

Architect

Dec 01, 2002, 09:49 PM

Save game is fixed. Yes, you can build the FP again.

JaxomCA

Dec 01, 2002, 09:49 PM

Ouch! Tough 10 turns. I had a feeling it might be a problem, when you capture a city of size 6 and end up with 6 resisters that doesn't bode well for flip suppression. At least you were able to reach the goal and take the filthy Celts out, good job on that.

You may want to double check the save you sent, the link is wrong and the folder contains a 2550 save game dated December 1st.

I think we should still build the FP in a Celtic city. If Entremont is too corrupt, maybe Lugdunum then.

I believe we have the worst culture by far, so we better pillage, raze and destroy :evil: in our next war.

JaxomCA

Dec 01, 2002, 10:54 PM

Ok, after checking the save game, I see that the Mongols will not trade with us from anything. I offered all we have that is, 3 lux, 400 golds and 46 gpt and Genghis will never accept this for banking. They would give us 2 luxuries for that price. I think we can assume Genghis will not deal with us until the end of time. Hmm, maybe not, Korea will not sell us chemistry for the same price. Carthages has the same tech as Mongolia and I guess they feed one another. If we can't get them to fight each other they will leave us in the dust.

I think we should now launch an attack on Mongolia. Break some coastal cities, most specifically those with a luxury monopoly. Hopefully that will force Genghis to break some deals with Hannibal. If possible we should settle the liberated land and be ready for a strong counter-attack. Choybalsan and Kasan are the best targets. Then we settle a city to get all the silks in the first city ring. By landing Muskets on the silk near Almarikh, we can steal all the silks from Genghis so that will be at least one broken deal for him. Then we work our way up breaking cities until Genghis will pay a high price for peace. If we can go all the way up to Ta-tu we will steal all the spices from Genghis for another broken deal. Mongolia has no saltpeter but Carthages has 3 :(

At first I was going to suggest to wipe out the Ottoman but Mongolia will most likely get rifleman before we can come back.

There is a settler in Mecca, he has been there for a long time now, I think we should make him work for his money :)

In any case, these are my thoughts on the situation. I may be way out in the left field on that, so feel free to disregard any or all of this :)

Architect

Dec 03, 2002, 07:23 AM

Roster:

Charis
Jaxom
Architect
Arathorn <- UP, please post a got it today
Falsfire
Iteean

Arathorn

Dec 03, 2002, 08:14 AM

Got it.

Looks like an interesting set of turns in my absense. Will play tonight, I hope.

Arathorn

Arathorn

Dec 03, 2002, 10:16 PM

(0) 750 - Look around. Try to knock out the rust.

Troop shuffle. Aiming at Mongols -- both as biggest threat and as most to gain. Change Lugdunum to courthouse in dreams of building a FP there.

(I) Palace expansions and Mongols start Copernicus.

(1) 760 - Peace and Astronomy are available from the Carthiginians. All it would take is 400 gold and all 45 gpt we can muster. I decline at the moment, as we still have an alliance with the Koreans in place.

(I) Koreans start Copernicus.

(2) 770 - yawn

(3) 780 - Start trying to squeeze in the occasional infra build -- temple here, aqueduct there.

(4) 790 - Kill Carthigian landing force near Augustorodum. Rush temple in Entremont to give us a slew of near squares, as it will cause a bunch of small border gaps, which automatically fill, helping Entremont, Alesia, Lugdunum, and Camulodunum in one shot, once the borders expand.

Korea now has Astronomy, too, so any 2-for-1 opportunities with it are gone. I was hoping for Astronomy and Chemistry from peace. Hmm....

Spain and the Ottomans are just pathetic and have no place in a deity game. They can't even muster a bit of cash to buy old techs from us. Sigh.

(5) 800 - Korea breaks our alliance (with one turn remaining!) to sign a peace treaty with Carthage. Wonder if that will hurt our rep.... :)

(6) 810 - Carthage has too many boats running around and we really need to sail the seas to attack Mongolia correctly. I give 38 gpt and 448 gold for peace and Banking. Dyes to Carthage for 17 gpt, incense for 17 gpt, ivory for 20 gpt. Banking to Korea isn't enough for Astronomy? And they won't accept gpt, even though Carthage would???????

OK, I get dirty. If they'll only accept gpt as part of a peace treaty, I'll just renegotiate peace with Korea. Yeah, it's dangerous, but I really REALLY want Astronomy from this. Peace, banking, and incense gets astronomy and all 8 gold in their treasury. They have no gpt to offer.

Spain gets Education for Printing Press and her World Map, as we're still lacking some map info. Saves us 15 turns on PP, too. Ottomans also get PP for their 17 gold and WM. Min sci on democracy started.

We're down to 37 gold, but our gpt income is up to 66, after all the trading. And we have three new shiny techs to play with. We're only visibly down Chemistry, but we may be behind more than that, of course.

(I) Renew Gems/Dyes trade with Korea.

(7) 820 - Mongols have Democracy. I can't count to 3, so some galleys begin long journey to safe passage to Mongolia. Research target changed to Music Theory.

(8) 830 - nada

(9) 840 - Trying to position troops. Mongols demand we leave. We do and ask them to leave. They immediately move next to Trondheim with a galley. GROWL!

(10) 850 - Still a few turns away from optimal attack vector, I'm afraid. The Carthiginians appear to be the Mongols only supplier of saltpeter, so if we can ally with them, I think we'll do well.

Troops on hand might be enough to take a city, but they'll never be able to hold it. Wait for the reinforcing ships (maybe even detour long enough to upgrade and bring along more troops).

Arathorn

Save at (I hope):
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5-850ad.zip

Charis

Dec 04, 2002, 02:00 AM

I love this part...

"OK, I get dirty. If they'll only accept gpt as part of a peace treaty, I'll just renegotiate peace with Korea. Yeah, it's dangerous, but I really REALLY want Astronomy from this. Peace, banking, and incense gets astronomy and all 8 gold in their treasury. "

That'll teach them for breaking a treaty with us!!! :hammer:

I was in shock from the FP flip. That's just... wrong. A city should not be able to flip, ever, with the FP there, or while an Army is present. Just my 2c, if Firaxis cares :P

I think though the chance to flip was higher than Architect thought. Like 5-10%, meaning the 5-10 turns to kill off the Celts meant almost a 50-50 chance of seeing it flip, until its borders were adjusted. Here's the thing - distance to *capital* and capital only affects the flip chance. If it were distance to nearer of capital or FP, that %flip chance would be TEN fold lower. It was probably an unduly large risk, but really, I would not have expected a flip THAT quick either - bad luck for sure, and one we'll deal with as best we can. Other than that misfortune, good job to all taking out the Celts!

Mongols first? Bold! But probably best, yes. That didn't really occur to me with Korea looking so ripe.

Good luck to our next leaders with the invasion!
Charis

Architect

Dec 04, 2002, 08:51 AM

The thing is, Lugdunum was just as close, had resistors my entire turn and had less troop garrison.

I know its just fate but its sure is funny the two cities that flipped were the most important ones we had.

Roster:

Charis
Jaxom
Architect
Arathorn
Falsfire <-- UP
Iteean

falsfire

Dec 04, 2002, 10:11 PM

will try to finish tonight but i'm not pushing it, as it's 10:05PM here now. If I don't finish tonight I will finish tomorrow early evening for sure.

falsfire

Dec 05, 2002, 12:01 AM

850 AD [0] - Preturn. I open up the savefile and wow. Has our civ ever grown since my last turn in the rotation. I see we have galleys waiting off the Mongol coast, and two more groups on their way. I have been reading the thread so I know the general consensus is to take it to Ghenghis and teach him who's malted liquor is the best, so that is probably what I will want us to do. What begs the question is, can we hold any of these cities we take against his military, and his culture which is about 3x ours. I overlook our cities' build orders, and all I change is the scientist in Verulamium to a working citizen to get the city growing, and change an entertainer in Entremont into a scientist to continue our min science run on Music Theory.

860 AD [1] - Mecca finishes its temple and starts on a Musketman. Baghdad finishes its catapult and begins work on a courthouse. It's maybe our best bet at building an FP on the Celtic island from scratch, as it's relatively central and not 99% corrupt even without a courthouse.

870 AD [2] - Workers work, boats move.

880 AD [3] - Korea completes Copernicus' in Seoul. Bergen Aqueduct->Musketman. Oslo Berserk->Berserk.

890 AD [4] - Oslo Musketman->Musketman. Trondheim Caravel->Berserk.

900 AD [5] - More units finish. More boats moving into place.

910 AD [6] - Medina Caravel->Caravel. Reykjavik Berserk->Berserk. Copenhagen Musketman->Musketman. I burn 280 of our gold to finish the courthouse in Baghdad.

920 AD [7] - Baghdad finishes courthouse. 50 turns to FP at current rate of 4 shields/turn. Invasion of Mongolia will commence next turn.

930 AD [8] - Bergen Berserk->Berserk. We declare war on Mongolia, and the fun begins.

Our first vet Berserk attacks, takes a hit from a catapult and brings a vet musket down to 1hp before he dies. Second vet Berserk attacks, takes a catapult hit, kills a reg musket and promotes to elite with 2hp left. Third vet Berserk scores a flawless victory against a reg musket and promotes to elite. Fourth vet Berserk scores another flawless victory against a reg musket. Now only the 1hp vet musket left as a defender. Next vet Berserk attacks, kills the 1hp musket w/o a scratch, promotes and takes the city of Darhan. We now control the Sistine chapel, and two more catapults. 6 resistors, let's see if we can't keep this one. The city still contains its barracks to heal our hurt units. A vet berserk from the next galley takes the mountain next to Darhan, killing the vet sword (bombed down to 2hp) that was there. His musketman buddy in the galley climbs out to help him hold the high ground.

Inter-turn: The Mongols move their forces into position around Darhan.

940 AD [9] - I bomb down the defenders on one of the Mongol stacks on the plains near Darhan, and then kill off one pikeman, 3 swords, one Keshik (promoted a 'zerk to elite) and severely injure a musket down to 1hp (lost an elite 'zerk in that fight...owie).

The Mongols attack force is...formidable. 6 vet MI's, 1 reg keshik, 1 reg archer, 1 reg longbow, 1 vet keshik. That's it for what can attack in the interturn. Our defenders are: 3 vet muskets (fortified), 4 catapults, 2 elite 'zerks (unfortified), 1 3/4 vet knight, 1 4/5 elite knight, both fortified. Seven defenders against 10 attackers, with catapult support on our side, we just might hold this round. Let's see...

IT: We lose both knights, 2 muskets, but of all the odd RNG luck, a 'zerk defending against a Keshik produces the great leader Erik Bloodaxe! The FP will now be rebuilt in Entremont, if the city holds the rest of the inter-turn that leader is leaving on the next boat back to our Celtic island.
http://www.kaejae-worx.com/~devin/civ3/rbe5/erik_bloodaxe_940AD.jpg

950AD [10] - Baghdad and Richborough went into disorder. Funny, they didn't grow, it's not war weariness, they're just less happy.

All I do this turn is load Erik Bloodaxe into a galley and send him off back to our home. I'll leave the rest of the unit movements and warfare up to our next leader

http://www.kaejae-worx.com/~devin/civ3/rbe5/rbe5_950AD.zip

JaxomCA

Dec 05, 2002, 01:25 AM

But a few nitpicks :)

Trying to hold onto Mongolian cities will have us depend on luck. Just burn them to the ground. Our Zerks are safer in a boat, loose one per burned city and move on to the next. With all the boats we have, we should be able to bring strong-blooded Vikings to that land. Settle our own cities and rush a wall on the first turn. We own the Great Wall, do we have metallurgy yet? If not, a couple of musket behind a reinforce wall will repel many, many attacks. And even if the muskets end up dead, odds are we will be way ahead in number of shields wasted.

Yeah! To Eric bloodaxe! I bet Baghdad and Richborough are unhappy because they now know they won't get the FP ;)

Arathorn

Dec 05, 2002, 07:39 AM

Iteean -- up
Charis -- on deck

What future will the battle of Darhan hold?

Can we hold the city? If so, is it worth it?

Do we abandon the city, destroying the Sistine Chapel? Do we have enough boats there to successfully pull out all our forces? Is there a good second location attack city?

I think a reasonable goal for the war is control of the southern peninsula of Mongolia -- not even quite as far north as Darhan. As I recall, that will get us 2 new luxuries and a solid foothold on Mongol land. We might not be able to achieve this goal, but it should be nearly realistic and potentially attainable.

Good luck to the next leaders. May the PRNG be with you.

Arathorn

falsfire

Dec 05, 2002, 07:53 AM

Holding the city I did know would be a longshot, I'm just so used to not wanting to lose wonders. But in hindsight, it did give us a leader, and he did burn up alot of his units in the counter-offensive. He didn't attack with only ten, at least 3 or 4 extra Keshiks came riding in from his mainland. So, our 7 units and 2 catapults repelled 13 or 14 attackers, and we did get a Great Leader out of it.

We do have enough boats just off-shore to offload all our landbound units into. We've so-far only lost two 'zerks, one on attacking the city and one on counter-counter-attacking one of his counter-attackers.

We'll probably never hold the city, though, if he doesn't re-take it costing us alot of units, it'll culture flip back with its proximity to his capitol, so we should definately burn it down.

One thing's for sure, 'zerks are awesome in their time. Right now the best defenders anyone has are 4-defense muskets, and we're the *only* civ in the world with a 6-strength attack unit. The best anyone else can muster is a 4-attack knight/keshik/longbow. And attacking from the sea completely negates their size 7+ city defenses, which probably has alot to do with us scoring 3 flawless victories against fortified muskets with our 'zerks.

We still have 3-5 muskets in our stack (including the two fortified on the mountain, they too can get into the boats in one round) One of our muskets is elite. And I saw two settlers in the boats. So we should be able to hold the land down south if we settle a city or two down there.

So in hindsight, my own opinion now is yeah, let's burn Darhan to the ground as our forces retreat back into the boats, we've had our way with the town there now and we DON'T LIKE their malted liquor! :hammer ! Burn our way along the coast, we still have an attack force of several 'zerks who haven't even set foot out of their boats yet. Just watch out for the Mongol boats in the area, I've seen 2 or 3 of his galleys roaming around, but they seem too afraid to attack us and run off whenever they come too close.

Iteean

Dec 05, 2002, 08:08 AM

This should be a lot of fun! :viking:

Iteean

Gothmog

Dec 05, 2002, 09:04 AM

Hey all, just thought you should know that it appears that there is not a bonus for attacking from the sea with 'zerks. Check this thread for hard to refute evidence:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24028

Iteean

Dec 05, 2002, 07:36 PM

Sorry, change of plans. I'm not sure if I can play this one soon, so please skip me this round.

Iteean

Charis

Dec 05, 2002, 08:19 PM

Ha! I was rather looking forward to things getting clarified on Iteen's turn before I got at it, but looks like some tough decisions ahead, including what to do about Sistine!

Got it...
Charis

JaxomCA

Dec 05, 2002, 09:09 PM

Burn Sistine to the ground, their god doesn't even approve of malted liquor!

Seriously, we have no cathedrals and will probably have none for the whole game. If you can spare some muskets to go pillage luxury resources in the north, that will help make Hannibal mad at Genghis.

Charis

Dec 06, 2002, 01:43 AM

We're smack in the middle of a hot war with the Mongols, and some heavy
action on the Sistine city of Darhan. I think folks had envisioned a
raze and pillage campaign on many cities, along the coast, but a
beachhead approach was taken, that happened to bring a key wonder
into play! How to proceed?

First, Sistine is all-map not just one continent, doubling effect of
all cathedrals. How many cathedrals are we going to build? We can't even
IRRIGATE our core until electricity!! We currently have 0 cathedrals and
pay 0% on luxury slider. We have four lux available. The power graph shows
us in good shape, Mongols as top dogs, Carthage stronger than his puny
troops would suggest, and Korea also decent in power, although we laugh at
him.

Next I note that *EVERY* Mongol city except Barcelona is coastal.

A musket, two zerks and 4 cats in Darhan. *SEVEN* Zerks in galleys next
to Ta-Tu, three up North, and a few empty ships. Carthage and Korea are
up on tech. Mongols won't yet talk to us, but take two more cities
and he sure will! They have *14* offensive units next to Darhan, and
a few muskets for cover.

As I see it we do NOT need to dislodge them or counterattack, but to wither
the storm at Darhan, inflict as many losses as we can, and draw their
troops AWAY from the coastal towns we're about to hit. If we can force a
peace settlement on our turns, it doesn't matter if they have 100 offensive
units. So I think I'll pull the muskets off the mountains back into the city.
Thankfully we have a barracks there.

Several cities are in civil disorder or sad, so I put lux to 10%.
Also, our ship to troop ratio is actually slightly large, so I won't
likely make more after the one due in Damascus.

Reading Falsfire's report, it seems we want to use about five zerks
to take a town of size 12 (maybe six is more likely?) - if we've
drawn cities to "minimum normal defense", as few as four zerks. Expect
to see 1-2 lost and 1-2 hurt as well. So with about 12 uninjured zerks
we really have enough for 2 cities, 3 if lucky.

Here then is the goal - do not abandon Darhan yet, but pull back muskets
inside city. Do a *simultaneous* attack on 2-3 Mongol cities, actually
capturing them, and on that very turn, demand peace from Mongols, so
we don't really need units on hand to defend them.

Which cities and when? Could have 4-5 vs Almarikh in 3 turns,
could hit Ta-Tu immediately, and Choybalsan in 3 turns, with 9 zerks.

- This turn: Raze Ta-Tu. Let hurt zerks heal in Darhan
- Next turn: Move the settler onto Ta-Tu's old square.
- Third turn: Settle the city. Take Choybalsan and Almarikh. Demand peace for a price.
- Next campaign in 20 turns - declare war on Mongols and do one of these:
i) wait several turns, then on ONE turn capture Kazan, Dalan, Ulaan, Tabriz, Hoyd.
ii) that very turn attack and RAZE each of those towns. I lean toward #2.
- Do not defend the cities with many troops at all, ASSUME they will flip.
But do starve them down!
Will it work?? We'll see! Capture or raze Almarikh and Choybal? I'm still leaning
toward just razing Almarikh and Choybal, even though if taken same round we
could sue for peace and hold them with few defenders. But... there's just
no benefit. Too big a flip risk, plus, Sistine city and one "native" city of
ours are worth having, but need no more.

[0] 950 AD - We carry out plan above. We bombard out of Darhan, then Vs Ta-Tu:
- First vet zerk kills vet musket, loses 2hp. Second vet dies ineffectively,
- Third vet dies but does dmg, same for fourth. Four and five are elites and win.
- Now there's a 2hp musket left. We have to move up an extra zerk from a caravel,
who wins, but now there's a vet MDI left!! Crud! Crud! Crud!
- Deciding fortune favors the bold gentlemen, we take our LAST zerk, a vet,
badly injured from last round, the only guy who can reach the city in time,
and attack, hoping 6 att vs 2 def will prevail. It does, and we even promote!!!
The city gets razed! :hammer: Six workers and a catapult. Glad we have ships on
hand!

Ok, that one city took seven and we lost three zerks. Ouch! That doesn't bode
well for going after three cities, and we must scale back thoughts to two or even
one. Will the Mongols talk now? Nope! Ok, we'll raze one more if they insist.
To get our boys back to the Darhan barracks we've now got some ships in port.
All the injured guys sail back to Darhan - can they survive and heal??
The upcoming midturn is tense!!

-- Tense is not the right word. Sad. Disappointing? No... BRUTAL!!!!
We lost... all 3 muskets, all 5 zerks, 3 workers, 4 cats, and 5 ships,
losing Darhan and the Sistine chapel.

:wallbash:

That's possibly the worst result I've yet had in Civ 3 8-\

They rolled us over. Stomp, whack, trampled. Actually, our defense was quite good.
We won 6 of the first 7 battles! They lost a total of 7 MDI, one Keshik, and
one sword. But then our muskets, now elite, were at 1 hp, and we lost almost ALL
the remaining battles as longbow after longbow, and MDI upon MDI, pressed
the attack. The only Zerk who defended worth a darn was the one who razed
Ta-Tu. The hero survived the round! Two victories even hurt!
Even we even held out this ONE round with one defender, we could cut our
losses, get the ships back out of the city, abandon Darhan. Ugh!

After they recaptured, you don't want to know what I saw next.

CAVALRY! Two of them, running around. We don't have the SLIGHTEST
prayer of holding ANY city.

This was a horrible debacle, but experience sometimes comes that way.
(Besides, the game almost has a theme now of several debacles! :P )
Viking doctrine - ***RAZE*** the coastal cities, no matter what the
city contains. Falsfire was bedazzled by Sistine, and I too drank in
the illusion, buttressed by a seemingly reasonable plan that only
required I hold the city TWO more rounds, with seasoned muskets, a barracks
and several other defenders.

The other fallacy - that only a few zerks are needed to take a town.
I think the seven I needed is more likely normal, and that we got
lucky in taking Darhan with only 5. Finally, with a slightly more
spread out pattern of boats, we could have hit a second and third city
at the same time as Darhan - if we did really want to keep Darhan, or
any city, you MUST capture 3 cities on that VERY round, and it must come
not at the beginning of the war, but after enough turns he'll talk.

[1] 960 AD -- Plan B. Now what?

First, I'm glad one caravel actually couldn't reach Darhan.
Second, we didn't lose the settler, and one elite zerk, a catapult
and worker, and a lot of ships survived.

What's in the water? Four strong zerks and two quite injured. Back
on our coast 2 zerks, musket and catapult. We won't have another
ship of 3 zerks for about 4 more turns. So what we have accessible
just MIGHT be able to raze one more Mongol city. Darhan?? If they
don't leave six defenders there yes, otherwize Almarikh is a good
candidate.

Depending on the tech rate, we may or may not be able to get a good
solid invasion going before rifles, but chances aren't great. Even then,
7-8 zerks should be able to raze any coastal city, so a longer window
exists with somewhat lower effectiveness, way through infantry. And
the fact they have cav is irrelevant if we NEVER leave our boats.
The best thing we could do about now is to slow down the tech rate.
My original plan, don't go against Mongols, but Korea and Ottomans,
is looking more attractive in some ways.

No embassy still in Carthage?! I fix that... they have
*SEVEN* musket defenders, Colossus and Lighthouse, 19spt, 7 lux
(too many from us!!) and Magellan's is due in 9. Their commerce in
Carthage alone is obscene, and our own lux is fueling it. No wonder
they're way ahead on tech. I wanted to see if he could ally vs
Mongols for any reason, and no way. Ottomans will, if we give them
two lux, Banking and Astronomy. What? They don't even have GUNPOWDER?!
What on earth are we waiting for?! Spain will ally for Astronomy and
Banking. They're weak enough that wouldn't hurt, except... the Mongols
would eat their lunch and devour the whole continent. Heck, they probably
will anyway. I don't want to tie down our options for 20 turns with that.

In any case, I don't like the two Koreans standing on our land,
and if they balk, ending a deal that supplies them TWO lux's and
saves them a ton of entertainers doesn't exactly scare me. I tell
them to leave, and... they declare war. Fine, slow yourselves down.
Alas, we're in need of capturing some new lux. Looks at Korea...

We slaughter two MDI with zerks, both promoting one to elite.

A Mongol galley ended just short of our short, and since I assume
it's got troops in it, I attack with an empty caravel and win.

Going to get our leader down to Entremont for an FP there.

[2] 970 AD - Moving into position.

[3] 980 AD - Here comes a Korean ship towards Lugdunum.

Here we go... at Almarikh. Ouch first thing we see is a cannon
shot at us. Our vet zerk is hurt and loses to a vet musket.
Second zerk, vet, no cannon fire, hurts musket but dies.
Third, same. Fourth is elite, knocks vet musket to 1hp with
no dmg, then loses 4hp in a row then... wins.
Fifth lost, sixth won, seventh and LAST berzerk... WINS!!

Almarikh is RAZED to the ground, and several LARGE KEGS
of malted liquor from the holds of the ships are broken out
and imbibed in celebration! Of course, with razing comes
plundering - six slave laborers.

The ships must all now go home to drop off the laborers
as well as to heal the berzerkers. The sole brave berzerker
left on shore who did the razing, knows his fate, and is
quite comforable with it... he dies dreaming of Ragnarok!
(The Malted Liquor is sweet succor at this time)

The Mongols still won't talk. They're too giddy at recapturing
the sissy chapel. We'll be back, don't worry. It may take
a few turns, but you have no defense!!

[4] 990 AD - Oh my!!! Midturn, a cavalry rides UP TO the
brave bezerker and takes him for dead, so deep was his
slumber and so grievous his injuries. In the morning he
awoke, rowed out to the galleys just before they left,
and sails home!!! To a heroe's welcome!!

:hammer:

This is clearly an omen that all is NOT lost, that we
SHALL prevail!!!

Entremont rushes its rax to be ready to rush FP next turn.

[5] 1000 AD - That blue caravel lands a knight, MDI, and longbow.
Right near our knight, zerk and cat. HA!

Mongols will talk now, btw, and give peace for free. But no techs.
Must have been a 'ten turn' thing they wouldn't talk earlier?

[6] 1010 AD - Augustodurum sees a Mongol ship nearby. Shift some...
Korean's start Smiths.

[7] 1020 AD - Carthage wants to extend the peace treaty. No chance
to renegotiate it? Well keep the peace for now.

Mongols and Carthage start Smiths.
I regnegotiate our triple lux deal to Carthage. Were giving
17, 17 and 20gpt for the three. Now we get 27, 27, 28gpt.
Still, he's saving MORE than that in cash and production by
having SO many happy people. Our next leader should feel free
to either deny him, or trade for tech instead. Still, our
economy is poor and we could use that gpt!

With our FP now in place, I send the unused settler to a spot
near Entremont where a good sized gap exists. Speaking of FP,
our income has SHOT up almost +70 extra.

[8] 1030 AD - Several yellow ships seen now. They won't actually
coordinate a landing, now will they?? Another blue one looks due
to land.

Midturn we see a Korean cav across the shore. (Mutters something
about saltpeter denial). They do land a musket and longbow.
The Mongols land a single Keshik (?!)

[9] 1040 AD - We get one promotion but no GL.
Korea will talk now, and take peace, but I'll let next leader
choose that. I *like* the GL fishing when they land junk troops
for our elite zerks to eat! There are two caravels and soon
several zerks down near Damascus, for a possible trip to raze
a Korean city.

[10] 1050 AD - Midturn in fact BOTH of them ask for peace.
I deny and Mongols land two Keshiks, a cav and MDI in our core.

We scoff at them! A zerk, Knight and two MDI (recently upgraded
via warriors and horse btw) spill their blood!

Finally, time for Revenge at Dahlan - up come the caravels...
Our first three vet zerks LOSE.
Our next two vet zerks WIN.
Our last two elite zerks... WIN!!!

** WE RAZE THE STINKIN' MALT-INTOLERANT SISSY CHAPEL! **

:hammer: [plasma] :evil:
Of course, since he was already willing to give peace, we
could have kept it. For 20 turns or until it flipped anyway.
But that just wasn't an option the intoxicated Berzerkers
would ever consider again! Pretty consistent, seven zerks
needed vs four musket defenders. If they had just one more
unit like a longbow we were screwed though.

We capture the same 4 catapults back, and 3 workers :P

To out next leader, we need a new vision. This turn we
had one failed vision then one borne of pure revenge!
We'll need to decide an overall strategy, goal on the
war with Mongols, vs Korea, how to slow down Carthage,
and if we can slip in plucking the low hanging Ottoman
fruit. Also, home defense is very weak and spread out,
in all cases I was lucky they landed where they did and
I could JUST get units there to attack them. You'll note
several units out in the open now, playing zone defense.
(Just saw Ottomans this round got gunpowder)
The Mongols will pay 280g for peace, not even close to
a tech. A rest-heal-strike on their southern cities
would likely be quite effective.

One last bit, *NOT* good - Carthage and Mongols are
now wearing Industrial era clothing. That means Rifles
soon if not immediately. It also means - if you can be
out of range/border the turn before you attack, then
move up to reach the city for amphib assault, it might
give them no time to draft or upgrade.

RBE5-Vikings 1050AD Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBE5-Vikings-1050AD.zip)

Good luck!
Charis

PS Jaxom - I wish your post had been made *before* my got it!
The "Burn Sistine to the ground one!" :p

Architect

Dec 06, 2002, 06:33 AM

Roster:

Charis
Jaxom <-- UP
Architect
Arathorn
Falsfire
Iteean

I say we press the attack on the mongols until WW become a major factor. It looks like the effectiveness of Bezerks is going to start to dimish so keep using them before we lose them.

At some point we have to decide that our military efforts have failed to bring victory and consider alternatives or forever be mired in tech mediocrity.

JaxomCA

Dec 06, 2002, 06:45 AM

Lord Jaxom puts down Charis' report of the mongolian campaign and shakes his head. A tear can be seen falling down his cheek, most likely due to all the dust floating around in his new quarters.

"Brave men they were, they will be sorely miss. At least the forsaken chapel is burning."

Lord Jaxom picks up a pen and writes down an edict to open a cemetery in Baghdad's jungles, at the foot of the Heroic Epic, and orders all the valiant warrior bodies to be buried there. He writes another edict to dig a pit in the middle of Scandinavia and orders all enemy carcasses, dead or alive, to be thrown down there to fertilize the land.

With these edicts taken care of, Lord Jaxom walks up to the balcony overlooking the once proud Celtic city of Entremont. The towns people are busily filling up barrels with the famous liquor, the lifeblood of the Viking's success. A raven's cry draws his attention to the palace's spires, embellished by the dessicated heads of our fallen enemies. Memories of Ragnar's treachery stirs up anger in his mind. Every school children learn how Ragnar handed Entremont to his pal Brennus for a few barrels of liquor and are taught how to effectively use treachery to improve Viking's life. Ragnar's error was not to give the city away, no, it was that he didn't secure enough liquor in the process. Ragnar's head, alongside Brennus' head, now adorns the rebuilt palace to remind everyone of that.

Lost in his thoughts, helped by the strong malted emanations permeating the air, Jaxom foresees an era when ships will be able to damage cities from afloat, allowing our proud berzerks to wreak havoc on Mongolian cities with minimal loses.

"Carthage is the enemy, they fuel Genghis war machine with their saltpeter and knowledge. Wang Kon is a little rough around the edges, but he is our only useful friend. Most importantly, he is not and will not be a threat to our glorious domination."

On this thought, Lord Jaxom sits down at his desk and begins drawing plans to hurt Hannibal, uttering something about 'other leaders' insight'.

Edit: got it.

PS: Charis, have a look at your PM, I sent you one. If you don't see any PM, let me know.

Charis

Dec 06, 2002, 09:39 AM

While weariness is already significant, the arrival of significant numbers of rifles is so close we definitely want to press the attack.

> At some point we have to decide that our military efforts have
> failed to bring victory and consider alternatives or forever be
> mired in tech mediocrity.

Gasp!?!?! Either very sage or very timid comments!?

Despite two major setbacks in war efforts, let's not lose track of our gains -

- We've wiped off the face of the earth one-time superpower Celts
- We now have a FP, a huge boost in production, and a huge increase in income. We're now about +140gpt income instead of +15, and the shields have gone up to one zerk every 60 turns to every 7 to 11 in all the cities surrounding Entremont
(That's with a 30% lux tax - if we peace with Korea and get a lux back, income will pop up further)
- The number of zerks we'll have ready for upcoming invasions will therefore increase tremendously
- We've razed to the ground three of the best Mongol cities, first ring in their core, and destroyed one of their best wonders
- NO one has laid a finger on us on their naval invasions, and any attempt to do so will be fruitless, and may net us a GL.
- With caravel's defense of 2, we're nearly immune to naval attacks for a quite a while to come
- There are only TWO opponents in the game who can seriously challenge us, not bad for deity archipelago at this point.
- The AI only puts a fairly standard set of defenders in towns. On the second attack on Darhan there were TWO other muskets visible on the hills and mountains surrounding the towns. A human would have put them in the city and thwarted our attack.

The only other tech we need is the one that gives Battleships. With those we can dominate the seas, prepare for Marine invasions, and run oil/rubber denial campaigns. Against our amphibious assault all their offensive units in the world won't help them.

If for some reason you do switch to Carthaginians, go straight for the cuts, bring 20 zerks to raze Carthage itself! Since war weariness is tracked per-civ, you might want to hold that switch until we're at max weariness with Mongols.

We've been Vikings the whole game, let's live or die by the sword (er... axe!) :hammer:

Charis

Charis

Dec 06, 2002, 10:37 AM

I thought I would check my simulater to get rough odds on what our Zerks will be facing. Since we're seeing mostly regular defenders, but seeing them promoted to vet, I'm going to look at vet berzerkers going against top vet defense units. Then compare that to using elites first instead of last (I do the latter to fish GLs and to not get my elites killed)

Vet Zerks --

Vs Pikes (or cavs!) in Size 6 towns, 3 defenders:
Need 4.0 zerks, expect to lose 1.0.
(i.e., need 4 in boats to be able to expect to take it in one turn,
and will likely lose 1.0 in the fighting, not counting the poor soul who lands to raze)

Vs Muskets in Size 12 cities, 4 defenders...
Need 7.4, expect to lose 3.4 (dead on what I was seeing)

Vs Rifles in Size 12 cities, 4 defenders...
Need 10.0, expect to lose 6.0 (ouch!)
If only three defenders, need 7.4 and likely to lose 4.4.

Vs Rifles in Size 6 cities, 3 defenders...
Need 6.0, expect to lose 3.0.

Vs Infantry in size 20 metros, 6 defenders. Do you really want to know?
If you do NOT bombard them first, need 27, losing 21.
If you hit such a city with 4 defenders and bombard to 1hp first,
You'll need 10 and will lose about 4. Not TOO bad.

Elite Zerks --
Vs Pikes in Size 6 towns, 3 reg defenders:
Need 3.3 zerks, expect not to lose (0.3).

Vs Muskets in Size 12 cities, 4 vet/reg mix of defenders...
Need 6.0, expect to lose 2.0

Vs Rifles in Size 12 cities, 4 vet/reg defenders...
Need 8.4, expect to lose 4.4
If only three defenders, need 6.3 and likely to lose 2.8.

Vs Rifles in Size 6 cities, 3 defenders...
Need 5 lose 2 vs vets, need 4 lose 1 vs regs

Vs Infantry in size 20 metros, 6 defenders. (Not good choice to waste elites on, but...)
If you do NOT bombard them first, need 22, losing 16.
If you hit such a city with 4 defenders and bombard to 1hp first,
You'll need 5.8 and will lose about 1.8. Now you're talking!

Finally, vet Marines vs vet Infantry:
Size 6, two defenders: Need 4.5, lose 2.5
Size 12, three defenders: Need 9, lose 6
Size 13+, four defenders: Need 14, lose 10
Conclusion - you would never want to take a city greater than
size 12 without first bombarding it to smitherines

Just some more data,
Charis

JaxomCA

Dec 06, 2002, 10:53 AM

Interesting Odds.

This means we will want to do the bulk of our war effort before sanitation. After that we will need to wait until we have bombers, as I think we will not have a strong enough production base to crank out battleships in significant numbers. This means we have to keep a foothold in Mongolia and establish one in Carthaginia soon. We also have to consider the impact of Radar towers, although the bombers can hopefully take care of these.

I haven't looked at the save file yet so I still don't have a clear plan to discuss.

JaxomCA

Dec 06, 2002, 01:49 PM

Ok, I have looked at the situation. Somehow I thought we had a city in Mongolia, but I realize it was just a dream :)

10 Zerks total, only 3 in stiking distance of Mongolia. We can produce maybe 10 more in the next 10 turns and it will take at least 5 turns to reach the shores of Mongolia. Genghis is willing to offer a remote island city for peace. The good thing about this city is it sits near Carthages shore and will provide a place to send bombers eventually, so I am tempted to make peace with Mongolia. Now Hannibal is willing to to declare war on Genghis for a high gpt, something like 150 gpt. Nobody is willing to consider our gpt deals with us for tech, so our gpt reputation is not getting better :(

I am tempted to recruit Hannibal and then make peace with Mongolia, would that be in the spirit of this game or would that be pushing it too far? That will probably mean we can never recuit again for gpt, so it might be better to wait on this until we are ready to attack again, in about 20 turns.

Now, if I do make peace with Mongolia, is it worth it to build more Zerks or should we push infrastructure instead? Navigation is available if we can muster enough cash to buy in, so the travel time to Mongolia will be shorter in the next round.

Of course we could clean out Ottoman, althought his cities will not be much help to us. However, it would put us closer to last civ price, will that make enough of a difference to be worth the investment? We can probably conquer all Ottoman cities in the next 20 turns.

I will not play until late tonight, I'll check in before I do.

Arathorn

Dec 06, 2002, 02:04 PM

My take on the situation:

- The age of the 'zerker is nearly past. We used it to great effect against the Celts and to hurt the Mongolians some. Taking our remaining 'zerks and getting a luxury (on either Mongolia or from the Ottomans) would seem to make much sense to me.
- At this point, other than that, I think we need to hole up, spend a ton of cash getting the Celt lands (FP) productive ASAP and once we have a bunch of income buying into the industrial age. Our homeland cities should get aqueducts and harbors to grow to size 12. We're gonna need more support at some point or we'll fall too far behind.
- To me, signing the Carthiginians to attack the Mongolians and dropping out early is fine. Dastardly as heck, but we're already over that line. If we do that, though, I'd like to see us push to get ONE city on Mongolia, preferably with a luxury (6 turns at all realistic for that?), before we sign peace. BUT, I've not seen the game in 20 turns so I have no idea how realistic that is.
- Just because we're the Vikings doesn't mean we can't build tanks and artillery and claw our way up that way. I think we're pretty well locked into a militaristic viewpoint, which is fine, but I don't feel the need to go overboard playing the amphibious assault role to the hilt.
- Navigation is not worth buying. We'll need to get to Magnetism relatively soon and that negates any value Navigation might have. There are lots of "worthless" Middle Age techs -- let's not waste our limited cash on them, OK?

My concrete suggestions:
- Ally with Carthage and immediately betray to get Mongolian peace.
- Keep war with Korea for leader-fishing and try to get a gems city out of the deal. We would have to capture that, though, and I have no idea how long the ship journey would be.
- Focus primarily on infrastructure.

Arathorn

JaxomCA

Dec 07, 2002, 10:37 PM

Once again, Lord Jaxom takes the reign of the Viking fate. Many events have occurred since his last turn in power, some glorious, some better forgotten.

The economy is in much better shape, thanks to numerous shipment of malted liquor to Carthages, who are much too rich for their own good. Corruption dropped significantly since Ragnar was decapitated for high treason, the population finally understand their leaders are not to be toyed with.

The ongoing Mongol campaign has severely taxed our brave Berzerkers and the population grows weary. A peace treaty with the Mongol would raise population support but Genghis won't listen to reason. His meager offer of a small fishing village and some golds doesn't pay back for the resources invested. A nice prize would be the destruction of Ulaangom so that we can gain control of the nearby silks. A tally of the forces in Scandinavia reveals that an army of 5-6 Berzerkers can be quickly assembled. That should be enough to remove the offending city.

A survey of Celtia and Arabia shows that an army of 10-12 Zerks can be trained in little time. That army's goal will be to destroy Cheju, Ulsan and Inch'on, giving us control of a couple of gems. If those battles go well, we might even capture Pyongsong, giving us good leverage to extort peace from Wang Kon.

Preturn: Richborough change to a settler to re settle Inch'on. Copenhagen change to settler to re settle Ulaangom. A galley and a couple of Zerks are rushed in southern Celtia. Baghdad's aqueduct becomes a Zerk at no shield cost. Troops with movement left are sent on their path to glory. And here we go.

Inter turn: A Mongol MI attacks the hero who destroyed Alderich and wins with a single HP left. A regular musket covers him.

1060 AD The remaining heroes of the battle of Alderich are shouting obscenities at the Mongol musketman. Hmmm, a stack of two, if I attack and win my Zerk will still be in the galley, right? Ok, a 3hp vet Zerk give it a try and loose, leaving a 2hp vet musket. More obscenities are heard. A 4hp elite Zerk jumps overboard before I can stop him. He wins and Leif Eriksson makes an appearance! Ok, what wonders can we build? None? Hmm, we have to change that. Economics can barely be bought for everything we have but Isabella learned Navigation and doesn't know about banks. She agrees to a straight up deal and throws in her WM. Leif is sent to Birka with the plans to Magellan's Voyage.

Inter turn: Genghis lands a musketman, a MI and a longbow near Reykjavik. More bodies for the pit. :)

1070 AD A brave knight lunges forward and slightly hurt the musket before retreating. A vet Zerk swings his axe and fumbles, leaving a 2hp elite musket. :( 3 more Zerks scream "Murderer!" and kill the 3 Mongols without even taking a scratch. Some Zerks are rushed by first rushing a musketman and switching back to Zerk.

Inter turn: A Korean galleon sails by Richborough, just out of range of our catapults.

1080 AD Leif reach Birka and rush Magellan.

Inter turn: Mongolia drops two more bodies, near Baghdad this time.

1090 AD We get Magellan, a whole lot of cascade follows, many to Smith. The two Mongol MI and dispatched, promoting a Zerk to elite. I notice Cheju has a regular musketman as top defender, it had a veteran before, so I decide to take a chance. The nearby caravel moves in, Zerks win twice on 2 regular musket, taking with little damage, and Cheju is burned to the ground. This leaves us with 5 foreign workers and no boats to carry them, so we chop their heads. Encourage by this success, a caravel leaves Richborough and heads for Ulsan where 3 Zerks score 3 wins on vet musketman. We capture 6 more foreigners but this time we do have boats ready to take the slaves back to Arabia. A lucky caravel takes out the galleon after it was bombarded to red.

Inter turn:

1100 AD Argh, a caravel blocks the only sea tiles that can attack Ulaangom. I land the troops near the city. A settler and 4 musketman are landed in the middle of gems in Korea.

Inter turn: The troops near Ulaangom are under attack, a musket is killed but another one survive twice.

1110 AD Our brave troops destroy Ulaangom, defended by 1 vet musket and 1 regular. Genghis will almost give a tech for peace. Catapults bombard a nearby musketman, he kills one of our attacking zerk, then our remaining zerks kill the musket and 2 MI under him. Still almost there for a tech. The Arabian Zerks destroy Inch'on, defended by 2 pikes, and a leader emerges from the rubble. Ok then, I offer Hannibal 150 gpt to enter the war on the Mongol and 85gpt to Osman to do the same. Now Genghis is willing to give economics for peace and I accept. The city of Stavenger is founded on the Korean gems and the city of Odense is founded on the Mongol silk. Both of these cities will need a garrison of at least 4 troops to reduce flip risk. Canute is quickly shipped back to Richborough where he rushes Smith's Trading Co. Genghis wants our luxuries, I trade 2 of ours and 4gpt for 2 of his. The Korean city of Pusan has to be burned down to gain access to all the gems, a force is sent that way. Wang Kon is wearing Industrial clothing and has trade embargoes in his options. :(

Inter turn: Hannibal ask our TM and 20 golds, I cave. A Korean cav is repelled in Stavenger. We love the king is proclaimed in many cities.

1120 AD A temple is rushed in Odense, a wall in Stavenger. Pyongsong, defended by 2 regular rifleman, is captured at the cost of a vet Zerk, but gaining an elite. Irrigation finally reaches Mecca.

Inter turn: Mongolia gets Newton, Carthages cascade to Bach.

1130 AD Saltpeter and Ivory are sold to Genghis for 40 gpt.

1140 AD Troops get into position to burn Pusan and capture 2 Ottoman towns.

Inter turn: A frigate/galleon pair moves in range of Stavenger. Mongolia gets Bach, no more cascades.

1150 AD Osman won't give us a tribute, so I declare war on them. The towns of Antalya and Aydin, defended by regular spearman, are captured. The assault on Pusan results in the loss of 1 elite Berserk, to their 1 vet rifleman, 2 regular rifleman and 2 wounded cavalry. Pusan is burned to the ground. Wang Kon would give us chemistry for peace if we throw in 500 golds or 27 gpt. He would also consider peace for a remote city and 250 golds, or even a straight 650 golds. I leave that decision to the next leader. If the cash is available, the harbor in Stavenger should be rushed to connect the gems to our capitol.

With the Zerks currently in training, we should have enough Zerks to capture all of Ottoman, unless he gets rifleman before we reach him. I believe Ottoman should be completely conquered. Wang Kon as Nationalism, Genghis and Hannibal probably have it too by now. The Celtic core has been set on infrastructure and it should stay that way at least until 5 banks have been built. The Scandinavia core should probably build some more troops until Ottoman is dead.

On this note, Lord Jaxom retires to his quarters, uttering something about the end of the Berserker era.

Here is the save at the end of 1150 AD. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5_vikings_1150ad.zip)

Architect

Dec 08, 2002, 09:01 AM

Roster:

Charis
Jaxom
Architect <-UP
Arathorn
Falsfire
Iteean

Nice set of turns Jaxom. I should play and post tonight.

Arathorn

Dec 10, 2002, 11:09 AM

Has anybody heard from Architect? I'm thinking that if he hasn't posted by this evening, when I want to play, I'll take the game and play (posting a "Got it" at that time). It's been over 48 hours since his claim.

Anybody have a better suggestion?

Arathorn

Charis

Dec 10, 2002, 04:37 PM

Checking the initial posts, his comments were "regular deity rules", and a follow up of "with this many players if someone fails to post got it in 24 he'll be skipped and can pick up next round"

So your plan is probably appropriate. I just have two concerns...
i) I would hate to see an "expectation" or unwritten rule get invoked that was not in fact clear to Architect. He got excess comments about the sneak attack (from me even) when there was nothing explicitly wrong with it.
ii) If in fact he's not gotten to the game a skip is the right action, but when a "got" is posted there's potential for the worst of scenarios - when two players both play out a turn

Your call - if it was me, and "my game" I would expect you would skip me if I missed a deadline - no special rules for the creator and no hard feelings on a skip. It's just not been explicit in this thread how long a 'got it' is good for :P It's a critical and war-stricken time, and it might have taken more than one day to play.

Or he might live in North Carolina and have no access to the next to post his turn :P My own thought - if Arathorn will be unable to play if not tonight, take it, but if not, give til tomorrow night and let Architect clarify how he would like this handled in the future.

:p
Charis

Architect

Dec 10, 2002, 04:44 PM

Roster:

Charis
Jaxom
Architect <-Skipped
Arathorn <--Up
Falsfire
Iteean

Just no time during the week this week. I'll try to jump in this weekend and grab some turns if possible. Was just thinking my time is up so if I hadn't come said anything then rules say you skip. No one should think that's a big deal.

Sorry guys, my life does this to me sometimes.

JaxomCA

Dec 10, 2002, 05:13 PM

This is unfortunate, the game is at an interesting stage. I can't speak for the others but I won't mind letting you jump ahead of me if my turn comes up on the next weekend.

Arathorn: Don't forget I betrayed both Hannibal and Osman by making peace with Genghis. They will never again ally with us, neither will Genghis whom we betrayed in the early stages. It might be possible to wipe out Korea now even with their rifleman but since it is a short hop from Arabia to Korea, we can easily wipe them out later with cavs.

Arathorn

Dec 10, 2002, 08:53 PM

Got it, then, but I'm pretty sure I won't finish my turns tonight ... just get a start on them.

Arathorn

Arathorn

Dec 11, 2002, 10:33 PM

(0) 1150 - Look around a whole lot. Trade Spain Economics for Music Theory, 9 gold, and one worker. It's kind of a pity trade, but Spain is a long ways from other techs, and I want a worker. Saves us 8 turns on MT, too (why are we researching that?). And why is our capital still only size 6? And no harbor? Oh, boy. My goal is to increase gpt by at least 75 during my turns. We're at 290 gpt to start. That'll never do. We should be at close to 500 gpt, really, to afford to keep up in techs/production.

Hurry temple in Stavanger -- last thing we want is a flip there. Harbor will come later. Various sub-hurries done in other cities.

(I) Korea/Spain sign an embargo against us. *yawn* Stavanger temple->harbor.

(1) 1160 - Bombard various Korean troops. I'm gonna kill as many as I can relatively safely and then sue for peace. Kill a cavalry and a musketman. Everybody else is too injured to really attack with any degree of safety, so I ask for peace now. We throw in 24 gpt and 8 gold and Wang Kong gives us Chemistry. I'd trade him horses (how did he build cavalry with no horses?) or a lux, but there's that embargo thing. Guess it wasn't quite as unimportant as I'd orginally thought. Oh well.

(I) Some infrastructure completes. MUCH more ordered. Nearly every city is on buildings at this point.

1170 ??? - More of the same, I guess. No combat vs. Ottomans.

(3) 1180 - Sell Chemistry to Spain for 12 gold and 10 gpt. They're no threat and every ounce of income helps. We're still very low income.

(4) 1190 - Battle for Iznik of the Ottomans. I have no settlers near, so I'm going for capture/hold instead of raze. They only have 6 cities, but I'll never reach them in my turns. Lose 4 berserks; kill one musket and one pike -- losing battles to a musket, a pike, and two to spears.

Battle for Edrine. Kill a pike; lose 3 straight to pikes, still face full hp pikes. Go to plan B and try to pick off a couple units in the open. Lose an elite 'zerk to a pike, and finally kill a medieval inf. Land a couple muskets on mountains to see what happens.

This is NOT going well.

(I) Kill 2 medieval infs and a sword with no losses and a promotion to elite. Guess it was the year of defense.

(5) 1200 - 2nd battle for Edrine: Kill a vet pike, lose vet 'zerk to regular pike, kill regular pike, and all I have left is a wounded elite. Guess two targets was one too many, but the defense was stiffer than I expected. No way our current forces can wipe them out. I make peace, getting 8 gpt out of the deal. [Note: We can redeclare war at any point and not violate the "Phoney Peace Treaty" exploit because we didn't get any hard goods for peace.]

(I) Mongols and Carthage sign peace. Mongols were winning that war.

(6) 1210 - Continue infra partial rushings in key cities. Plan on melding some Celtic workers into cities needing growth.

(I) Mongols and Ottomans sign peace.

(7) 1220 - Trade Gems to Carthage for 15 gpt.

(I) Cathage cancels 27 gpt for Dyes deal. They renew at only 14 gpt. But, cash is cash, so I agree (for now). Bergen finishes harbor and goes back to military.

(8) 1230 - (I) Carthage cancels 27 gpt for incense deal. Renew again at 14 gpt.

Renew Ivory with Carthage @ 15 gpt instead of 28.

(10) 1250 - End with 373 gpt -- that's a gain of 83. Would've been 100 if not for the Carthage renogs. A lot of our cities are bigger than they once were and much infra is completed. We should be able to afford buying techs again ere too long. We don't want to miss out on RRs, hospitals, and, most importantly, stock exchanges, when their time comes. (Stock exchanges and commercial docks later are paid for by Adam Smith, which is HUGE in PTW.)

Arathorn

Save should be at http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5-1250ad.zip If not, well, harrumph! Good luck to the next leader. Probably time to buy some techs before too long. I didn't see any RRs yet, so we're likely not more than 5 or 6 techs behind.

Architect

Dec 11, 2002, 10:37 PM

Roster:

Charis
Jaxom
Architect
Arathorn
Falsfire <--UP
Iteean

falsfire

Dec 11, 2002, 11:17 PM

got it. will only have a little time tomorrow night...if i can't finish it i'll play what turns i can then pass it off b/c friday i won't have a spare second to play...

Arathorn

Dec 12, 2002, 08:36 AM

Some suggestions for the next leader(s):

I see the main threat in the game as the Mongols, easily #1, with Carthage #2, and Korea actually about even with us right now (which means they're barely a threat).

With that in mind, I make the following suggestions.
- Buy tech from Korea for cash. They're commercial so should have good prices and are the least threat of the civs that have tech.
- Move our 'pult stack from Korea to Mongolia. This will have them in position to upgrade to artillery when we get replaceable parts. I think we should aim to take eastern Mongolia (or is that Mongolia and the western part Spain?) via a raze-replace program with an artillery stack.
- Plan to upgrade a LOT. We're gonna be relatively cash-rich and shield-poor for quite a while. There's a LOT of water around our cities and that's good for cash and not shields. Often, it's not worth upgrading pikes to infantry, being cheaper/easier to disband and build infantry with shields. I don't think that will be the case this time.
- Get our remaining 'zerker force in place to hit an isolated island colony of Mongolia. I'm thinking ~35 turns before we're ready for our next war, but shipping troops around takes quite a bit of logistical time.
- Please let the aqueducts/banks/courthouses/marketplaces that I've started at least finish, even if you don't build any/many more. But, I think it's about time to stop partial rushing (e.g. switch market to colosseum, rush, switch back and let complete naturally) and start accumulating cash to buy techs. As I recall, late Middle Age techs run just under 1000 gold, so we should be able to buy one every couple/three turns and then see what the IA situation looks like.

Oh, and I'll be out from Friday evening until Monday, just to warn you, but I don't think it will matter.

Arathorn

falsfire

Dec 12, 2002, 05:25 PM

I can't play tonight, guys, sorry.

If you can wait til Saturday, I can play & post Saturday. So if sum1 else wants to pick it up and play a turn b4 Saturday, feel free and I'll take it then.

Iteean

Dec 12, 2002, 06:40 PM

Since this is my first SG, I am a little confused about the time you have to finish your turn. Are the rules for this game 24/48 meaning:

24 = You have 24 hours from the posting of the save file to post a got it.

48 = You have 48 hours from the posting of the save file to complete your turn.

Is that correct? That's the assumption I made when I asked to be skipped last turn (sorry Charis!) Or does the 48 mean you have 48 hours from the "got it"?

Ok, enough of the newbie questions! I can play Saturday morning, but since that won't get the group the next set of completed turns much sooner, I'd suggest just waiting for Falsfire and avoiding any skip / swap confusion.

Iteean

Charis

Dec 12, 2002, 07:48 PM

Iteen,

We've gotten so used to saying "standard 24/48" that it hasn't actually been spelled out in a long time!

That's 24hrs from the time a save is posted to say "got it",
then 48 hours *after got it* to play your turns (not 48 from the original post). If you don't take it this way it would basically mean that a person not seeing the post immediately *had* to play it the night he got it, which isn't too practical.

The 'hope' is that a player can "usually" turn it around within 48 of the last save post, just as an aide to keep the game moving. When you need 48 (2 days) after a 'got it', once in a while, that's no problem at all.

In any case, the main objective is for people to avoid not checking the forum and not noticing they're up (which can and has led to absurd SIX day delays), or from saying "got it" and then disappearing for four days.

I would also say to falsfire that if he's able to do it on Saturday that's no problem. Just don't say "I *think* I can get it in two days, not sure, maybe!" -- which is something we do need to avoid :p

Thanks for clarifying,
Charis

falsfire

Dec 14, 2002, 06:35 PM

sorry for the delay guys, playing right now will post when i'm dunn.

falsfire

Dec 14, 2002, 07:25 PM

1250 AD [0] - Change nothing, start moving some catapults into the Caravel near Stavenger to ship to Mongolia.

1255 AD [1] - Mecca aqueduct->zerk. Alesia bank->caravel. Lugdunum granary->zerk. Bergen pike->zerk. Camu bank->zerk. Oslo market->bank. Shuffle some troops around to prepare for a shipment to Mongolia. Switch Bergen to Palace (prebuilding for Wall Street). Then I immediately remember that in PtW, we need 5 stock exchanges, which we won't have til we learn The Corporation. I switch back to zerk.

1260 AD [2] - Korea is rich enough already, so I buy Metallurgy off Carthage for 1185g.

1265 AD [3] - More troop shuffling. Start merging some celtic & arabian workers into cities. Korean/Mongol workers fortify, as there is absolutely NO tiles left for them to improve, and to avoid flips and future WW I don't want Mongol/Korean citizens in our cities.

1270 AD [4] - zzzz...

1275 AD [5] - Korea is making about 600gpt, based on how fast his money is going up (at 3500g now). So, again I buy from Carthage, who has already spent the money we gave him 3 turns ago. Buy Physics for 1370g.

1280 AD [6] - zzzz...

1285 AD [7] - Ghengis wants to stop the fur/spice trade for our dyes/incense +4gpt. I try to renegotiate pure gpt, with us giving dyes, incense, & gems for his furs, spices, wines, but he wants 65gpt in addition to make that deal work. I instead trade him dyes, incense, gems, 16gpt for furs & spices. Korea must've just bought Industrialization off Mongolia, as Korea lost a bunch of cash, started universal suffrage, & Mongolia now has cash in his pocket, whereas he didn't on the inter-turn lux renegotiate popup.

1290 AD [8] - zzzz...

IT: Ghengis wants to continue our salpeter +ivory for 40gpt of his deal. I try to renegotiate, and get 56gpt instead, locking us into another 20 turns of peace with him (as if our reputation matters anymore in this game)

1295 AD [9] - Carthage gets 1460g for ToG. I WANT that embargo between spain & korea to end, we can trade Wang Kon 4 luxes and I want a piece of his massive gpt income...next leader watch for that embargo to end and if it does on your turn, see how much you can sucker outta him.

1300AD [10] - zzzz.

http://www.kaejae-worx.com/~devin/civ3/rbe5/rbe5_1300AD.zip

Iteean

Dec 15, 2002, 02:50 PM

Sorry if this report is a little terse, but I've still got a whole epic to write up! :)

1300 AD [0] - I'm impressed by the vast Viking empire! I'm also pleased to see our infrastructure developing. No changes.

IT: The trade embargo against us ends.

1305 AD [1] - Camulodunum finishes harbor, starts zerk. Antalya finishes spear, starts harbor. Wang will sell Magnetism for WM plus 1665 G. If I throw in a luxury on top of that, he is insulted. Umm... ok, just cash then! That's the industrial age for us folks. Wang already has Steam Power and Nationalism. I sell 20 turns of all our luxuries to Wang for 32 GPT. That's not great, but they are just sitting there useless otherwise. I was tempted to sell him our extra horses as well for 10 GPT, but I don't want to encourage him to build cavalry. Steam Power is next, but that's a pricey one. I find a scientist somewhere and start him on Medicine. We don't want to wait 40 turns for Nationalism or Steam Power, right? Several AIs already have industrialization.

IT: Wang offers to renew peace treaty. We accept.

1310 AD [2] - Entremont completes zerk, starts zerk. Lugdunum completes
zerk, starts zerk. Bergen completes zerk, starts zerk. I want to start some muskets, but remember we don't have salt, and it's not worth the cost IMO.

1315 AD [3] - Trondheim completes zerk, starts zerk. Birka completes barracks, starts granary. Temujin now has Medicine. I change my mind on the Stockholm zerk and switch to a bank instead.

1320 AD [4] - Damascus completes zerk, starts aquaduct. Baghdad completes bank, starts zerk.

1325 AD [5] - Odense completes harbor, starts aquaduct (let's get that size 6+ defense bonus). Reykjavik completes bank, starts granary. I'm slowing down the berserk production and switching to pikes soon, sneaking in a granary here and there. I'm becoming more and more tempted to buy salt for ~1000 G in hopes of saving money on musket -> infantry upgrades rather than pike -> infantry. Of course, rifles -> infantry would be nice too.

IT: Osman offers to renew the peace treaty, and I reluctantly agree.

1330 AD [6] - Ragnar will sell Steam Power for WM plus 2600 G, Wang for WM plus 2929 G, Temujin for more than we have. Tough call, but I go ahead and pay the extra cash to Wang since he is a lot less threat than Carthage at the moment. We are fortunate to have two sources of coal, one in Arabia, one next to Malt Jungle. Everyone else in the industrial age also has coal. Where
are all our workers?! Oops, sorry guys I'm used to having many more workers than this.

1335 AD [7] - Mecca completes Bank, starts zerk. Entremont completes zerk,
starts worker. Alesia completes zerk, starts zerk. Bergen completes zerk,
starts worker. Copenhagen completes zerk, starts worker. Odense switches
from aquaduct to worker. Malt Jungle rushes its aquaduct. Izy has Military
Tradition, but not Physics, so there's a chance to trade there, but I am saving the G for other things.

IT: Renew Gems deal with Cathage for 16 GPT. Temujin declares war on Ragnar! That's good, we don't want them trading with each other.

1340 AD [8] - Trondheim completes zerk, starts pike. Entremont completes
worker, starts pike. Medina completes aquaduct, starts worker. Odense
completes worker, starts aquaduct. Lugdunum completes zerk, starts worker. Bergen completes worker, starts zerk. Malt Jungle completes aquaduct, starts worker.

IT: Renew Dyes deal with Carthage for 15 GPT.

1345 AD [9] - Lugdunum completes worker, starts worker. Camulodunum completes zerk, starts worker. Copenhagen completes worker, starts pike. Gergovia completes aquaduct, starts worker.

IT: Renew Incense deal with Carthage for 15 GPT.

1350 AD [10] - Trondheim completes pike, starts worker. Entremont completes pike, starts worker. Medina completes worker, starts pike. Lugdunum
completes worker, starts zerk. Camulodunum completes worker, starts worker. Malt Jungle completes worker, starts worker.

Notes for next leader:

I added a few more boats of zerks near Mongolia.

We are 9 turns into a min research of Medicine. That really should have been Nationalism, sorry. I guess I've been playing too much emperor recently.

I wanted to start some factory prebuilds, but felt the worker need was more immediate.

Izy still has Military Tradition if someone wants to get it. It's of marginal value though, right? She refuses to accept any of our luxuries for it too.

rbe5-vikings-1350ad.zip (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5-vikings-1350ad.zip)

Iteean

Architect

Dec 15, 2002, 08:14 PM

Roster:

Charis <-- UP
Jaxom
Architect
Arathorn
Falsfire
Iteean

JaxomCA

Dec 15, 2002, 08:47 PM

@Iteean

You keep talking about Ragnar as if he was alive. If you read a few pages back, you will see that Ragnar's head is decorating our forbidden palace. Also, Ragnar was our leader, I think you mean Hannibal, leader of Cartharges :)

Iteean

Dec 15, 2002, 10:34 PM

@Jaxom:

... that you should never partake of too much malted beverage while ruling a country. At least I know now why my foreign advisor was smiling so much. :eek:

Iteean

Charis

Dec 16, 2002, 01:34 AM

You guys are going to either really like, or really hate my turn,
depending on how you feel on the game's minor players...

Well things have moved along in the past 800 years, haven't they?!
Let's look at our SWOT

*S*trengths - current score and power are both #2 (or tied for it)
- Military is avg to Korea, weak to superpowers, strong to others,
- 15 Caravels and 22 Berzerks
- We have one outpost on Mongolian soil
- Our econ is lookin' pretty good!
*W*eaknesses - No saltpeter, very weak defense, no cav, just 2 knights
- The rep of a backstabbing civ that would raze the Sistine Chapel is in the tank
*O*pportunities - Korea has just 5 mainland cities if they ever 'act up'
but for now they're our most useful tech buying partner
- Mongols and Carthage in Democracy??? Oh no, that won't do AT ALL
- Every single Mongol 'city' is on the coast except the capital
- Every single Carthage 'city' is on the coast
- Ottomans and Spain only continue to exist at our whim
- Carthage has FOUR extra saltpeter??
*T*hreats - getting left in dust in tech, or having no rubber come infantry
- Our capital has a single MDI as defense. If they AI were any good, we'ld be dead

Medicine is definitely suboptimal on deity. We'll never afford Nationalism, plus
we need to buy Medicine to be able to compete for ToE. (Which seems to be a universally
desired deity wonder)

The tiny Carthage city of Saldae has extra coal. The three city Carthage island has
saltpeter and coal. The four-city mainland of Ottomans has saltpeter. I'm going to
guess one of the small colony islands of Carthage has rubber too, we may have none.

Oh my there's been a lot of work put into the Mongol beachhead of Odense. Too
bad there's zero chance of it not being razed next war with Mongols 8-\
And a gift of 17 catapults to them as well. Are planning to storm Karakorum
or something? Just... no... defense. Maybe we'll hit infantry before they attack?

Looking back to my 'odds' post, I see that vs size 12 cities with rifles, we'll need
about 10 zerks to defeat 4 defenders and will lose 6. So our entire battallion of
zerks plus what's in queue would raze 2-3 cities, at most.

Taking a look at our infrastructure
- Not even a library or Cathedral in our capital?!!? Our ONLY Library is Odense!
- Bergen has no TEMPLE.
- Virtually every city does have a marketplace though, that's good! :P
- Augusta needs a courthouse, but overall we're fighting corruption nicely!
- Our tiny islands need mil blockade units

Let's take a dirtier look... where are the key wonders?!
Bach's - Mongol - Toledo
SunTzu - Carthage - Utica
Leo - Korea - Seoul
Suffrage - under construction, Leptis Magna or Dalandzadgad

So... who will it be? War with Mongols WILL cost Odense if done before infantry.
The little civs make no sense, Korea is our only source of tech before *espionage*.
Seems like Carthage. I think I'll target three cities then demand tech for peace,
since we have troops for 3 cities. The isle-of-three with Saltpeter and Coal is
too nice a target, although... Saldae, Taejon, Russadir are 'easier' but separated.

Er... I just now noticed... Mongols and Carthage are at war???? Sheesh, why interrupt
that party!? (Neither will ally with us, no surprise) I was indecisive on the war
plan to start, now I'm really wishy-washy.

Ack!!! I just looked at our active trades... four deals with Carthage spanning the
full twenty years. My hands are tied! Mongol deal about 7 more turns. Erm....
we have saltpeter but are selling it to Mongols? Korea 10 turns of deals.

Not wanting to mess up the Carthage-Mongol war, and in believe that ToE is strongly
in our best interest, and that we're just TOO far behind in tech... I come up with
my plan. Nothing like the above. Watch...

[0] 1350 AD - Swap Odense to walls. Work on a mil blockade of our tiny islands.

Part A of plan, I get a little frisky... and steal Electricity from the Koreans.

[1] 1355 AD - Korea declares war on Carthage???? I couldn't have dreamed for better!
Carthage cancels his import of our Ivory for 15gpt, no deal possible.

I don't like the position of the large armada in North Mongolia. If we hit anywhere,
it will be South, or Toledo. Besides I think Carthage is next, particularly the
three-city island. I'm going to shift about 18 zerks over that way so that if you
DO want to fight Carthage for 2-3 cities, you can.

Part B, steal Medicine from Korea, carefully.... success!
(Why them? They're the least likely to declare war if caught)

Oh MY we're light on shield production! I put one of our (cough) best cities,
Bergen, on Palace placeholder for ToE, and it's only 15spt. That'll take 40
turns for enough shields to ToE, 58 on palace. The Suffrage cascade will likely
kill us 8-\

1360 AD - Part C of the plan... since no one wants to invade Spain or Ottomans anytime
this millenium, I would prefer they become junior members of the modern ages
rather than pygmies. Why? Nationalism for free!! I trade to Spain for Democracy
and Mil Tradition, give Ottomans into the 20th C with req'd techs, and they get
Nationalism for free, being Scientific. I then trade Democracy, MT, Steam, and
Medicine for that pricey tech.

We now have Medicine, and Spain and Ottomans are still 1-3 techs behind the
pack. They'll either remain poor and fall back into dark ages, or they will come
up with good cash somehow, and provide some of that to us for techs.

(IBT) Spain and Korea sign MPP, which means next turn... Spain declares vs Carthage!!
Oh MY! Dogpile time!! Maybe we *DO* want in on this?!?! It'll take a while, but that's
where our little ships are heading. If we can raze one or two these guys will pay
handsomely to stop the dogpile!

1365 AD - I continue making more and more workers. This upcoming microinvasion with
zerks might be our last (? along the lines of 'admit their past their age' idea)

Mongols lack Electricity! We sell that plus 975g for Industrialization.
The top three now seen to have Communism and Corporation. Spain offers 27gpt for
Steam... well, ok. Use it well to take on the Mongols, Isabella! (If we don't sell
to her, Ottomans will)

Any 10spt cities, I put on Factory. That's 8 cities. Actually, Bergen would finish
ToE quicker if I finish a factory first. That gets rushed.

1370 AD - Is that the sounds of dogs barking?? Mongols sign Ottomans vs Carthage! :eek:
The Ottomans get paid for this, and we take that cash right away by selling Indus.

I just realizee... with Electricity, we could irrigate anywhere, ie our core! :P
(Now that we don't want to) That pops our income up to +645gpt.

1375 AD - Same time savings from Coal Plant. One is rushed in Bergen after a disband.
The Ottomans join the Suffrage parade.

Carthage now has Replaceable Parts!! Gah! One can only hope that our zerks fine
their cities surprised and take them first round pre-upgrade. Carthage is broke,
and has no cash for upgrading all around. Were the dogpilers be in time?
Carthage is the only one with it... hmmm... I save up for a 'safe' attempt soon!

(IBT) Mongols and Korea sign MPP. Hmm, that could get ugly later.

1380 AD - MUCH better - Bergen cranking 32spt with coal plant plus factory. Under 20
turns to build ToE - in fact, will someone research it in time?

(IBT) Mongols come up to renew the 'big' lux deal, our 3+16gpt for their two.
We talk it down to 13gpt, and renew.

1385 AD - More workers.
(IBT) Mongols and Carthage come to peace. (Boo!! Hrm... will MPP drag them back in?!)
The Mongols pick up Rep Parts - was that in tribute I wonder?

1390 AD - Time is short then to snag it - I go for 'Carefully', and choose Carthage rather
than Mongols because the latter war would be ugly. It's about 100 more, but... it works!
Uh... why is Korea insulted by thinking Corporation is a good deal for that??
Cheapskates! Still, 500g is better in our pockets than Mongols.

We have rubber!! Three. Stockholm, Mecca, Alesia.

(IBT) Mongols don't seem to need the saltpeter and ivory as much any more. Before they
paid 56 gpt. Ah, only 38gpt in their budget. Saltpeter alone is 33gpt, a better deal.
But... I wait until MY turn so I can get some upgrades in first!

(IBT) Scoundrels! Indeed, the disreputable Mongols declare war on Carthage!

1395 AD - We upgrade some cats to artillery, knight to cav, MDI to Guerrila (well, one)
then sell off our only saltpeter again, to Mongols for 33gpt. Wait, even better,
he has more cash now. Ivory and salt together for 59gpt. I get that with his lux
gone he could not afford to pay a debt to Carthage and declared war on them?!

ACK!!! The workers next to Stravanger were sleeping?!???! Bad form!
On a more positive note, our 'milnet' is complete in Arabia, and next turn,
in our core!. More workers are needed in the core actually, I finally move a boat
down to pick some up. That should be the only goto, and it's just one turn.

[10] 1400 AD - More working on the railroads. Bergen, our 'powercity' should get
all available workers (and tiles for that matter) for his wonder.

Our ships have arrived (finally) at Carthage!
There are 8 zerks outside of Rusadir, which when I last peeked with a ship,
had rifles, not infantry. There are *15* outside Malaca, poised to strike as
early as next turn. Alas, we have 8 rounds of trade deals left with them, but
I can think of a way to help them declare... a tech steal attempt at 'immediate'.
Tech or war, we can't lose! The result is... Combustion!
Well, ok :P Maybe try that again in a turn or two as the cash for it returns.

Notes -
- Summary: We went from way behind in tech to right up there with Replaceable parts
and 'waiting' for someone to hurry up and get Sci Method! We've also brought
two pygmies into modern age to get free Nationalism, but delay their death in
doing so. They've shown no ability to keep up since I got them where they are.
- We're researching Sanitation because we have no intention of buying it, or
critically needing it. It'll be good for trade or an actual 'completed 40'
- Keep an eye out for Sci Method. If Bergen is ready to finish Suffrage and it
has NOT shown up, take Suffrage and kill the cascade, then immediately prebuild
via palace again. I'm surprised Korea didn't show up with Sci Meth yet.
If he does you can either trade hard cash for it, or steal safe or careful.
- With Carthage, if you even decide to attack, feel free to try a unsafe steal, or
by all means, just break our deal - it's gpt for lux anyway, no hard loss.
Don't let a little thing like rep stop you in this backstabbing game!!

Next turn should be quite interesting!

Jaxom <-- Up
Architect <-- On deck

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBE5-Vikings-1400AD.zip

Good luck!
Charis

JaxomCA

Dec 16, 2002, 07:03 AM

Lord Jaxom awaken from his torpor and notice the world is moving again.

Got it but I will not play until Monday night eastern time.

Zed-F

Dec 16, 2002, 07:30 AM

A good (read cheap) way to get a war declaration is a imediate sabotage attempt in a small (size 1-2) city. Much cheaper than immediate tech steal. Alteratively, try stealing the map.

JaxomCA

Dec 17, 2002, 06:32 AM

Preturn: The days of our military might are over. The Vikings have made great strides in the past millenia, they are almost civilized now! Most cities are changed to factories, except in Scandinavia where some are changed to Stock exchange. Tiles are arranged to make Tronheim, Bergen and Stockholm the shield cities, while the 4 other cities are turned into pure fishing villages. Barracks are sold in fishing villages and they are set to Stock exchange, which will eventually have to be rushed.

IT: Hannibal wants an embargo against Ottoman, he will not sweaten the deal so request denied. Spain and Carthages make peace.

1405 AD Wang Kon deal for our luxuries expired, I renew for 44GPT, that is all the GPT he has. Some Infantry are drafted in high food cities. Yes, we do have a couple of these :)

IT: Isabella changed her mind about Carthages, it is her prerogative. Seoul completes the Universal Suffrage. Wnag Kon is tempting us with that city! Leonardo, Copernicus and Suffrage and a sign nearby that says "Up for grabs".

1410 AD Genghis picked up Free Artistry.

IT: Carthages and Ottoman make peace. Mongolia starts Shakespeare's Theater.

1415 AD Wang Kon picked up Free Artistry.

IT:

1420 AD Entremont build my first ever Stock Exchange and begins a prebuild for Wall Street.

IT:

1425 AD Korea has picked up Scientific Method, waiting to have enough cash for 2 safe attempts.

IT:

1430 AD Our sneaky spies bribe a few Korean scientist and... success! TOE in 4 turns in Bergen.

IT:

1435 AD Oh, Carthage is in Anarchy. Our spies bribe Carthage officials and...success! Refinery is stolen, we have oil in one of the city we took from Ottoman. :jump: The harbor of Aydin is rushed to let us play with oil.

IT:

1440 AD ...

IT:

1445 AD The deals with Hannibal are all expired now and he won't renew for a reasonbable price. Our valiant Berserks are itching for a fight and there is a prime target in range. I firmly ask Hannibal to give us communism for continued peace and he said I had a big mouth. :groucho: Well Hannibal, you have something we want and we take it. A caravel moves near Carthago Novo which is defended by a veteran cavalry. An elite Berserk lunges forward and...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5_carthages.jpg

Good start! A veteran Berzerk take on the remaining regular cavalry and capture the city. The other caravels move to Gades which has a regular infantry on top. This is likely the last battle for our glorious Berserks so I let them loose.

The battle of Gades.

Vet berserk vs reg infantry, loose 4-2 but promotes him.
Vet berserk vs reg infantry, wins 3-3! :jump:
Vet berserk vs conscript infantry, loose 4-0 and promotes him.
Vet berserk vs reg infantry, loose 4-0.
Vet berserk vs reg infantry, loose 4-0 again and promote him. :eek:
Vet berserk vs vet infantry, loose 4-1 but promotes him. :aargh:
Vet berserk vs 4hp elite infantry, loose 4-1.
Vet berserk vs 3hp elite infantry loose 4-0.
Vet berserkvs 3hp elite infantry loose 4-1.
Elite berserk vs 2hp vet infantry, loose 4-0
Elite berserk vs 2hp vet infantry, win 3-2!
Elite Canute vs 2hp elite infantry, win 1-2, Gades is ours with barracks and harbor! :beer:

The battle for Rusaddir.
Vet berserk vs vet infantry, loose 4-2.
Vet berserk vs reg infantry, wins 1-3!
Vet berserk vs 2hp vet infantry, wins 1-2 and promotes, Rusaddir is ours with barracks and harbor! :hammer:

All caravels involded in these battles are promoted to galleons.

IT:

1450 AD Bergen completes TOE, I take atomic theory and electronics even though we have no rivers, just so I can start a 40 turns run on Radio. Seoul, again, builds Shakespeare's Theater. Trondheim finishes a stock exchange and begins the military academy.

Copenhagen, in Scandinavia, and Richborough, in Arabia, are set to produce workers every 2 turns, staying at size 6. You should leave them that way until all cities are size 12. Oslo is building a cathedral as a prebuild for the first commercial dock, whenever we get the tech, it should take about 15 turns before we do. Trondheim is building the military academy, I believe you should let it complete, armies of marines come to mind. Don't forget to change Entremont to Wall street in 3 turns when the last 2 stock exchange are built. We will not have Hoover dam, so be sure to build coal plant after the current projects are completed.

Gades is a high flip risk, I left only a token berserk there and moved everybody to Rusaddir. Don't starve the cities, just rush workers out when you can. When Rusaddir is secured, if we still have Gades then you could move the troops back there. Or you could just abandon Gades if you prefer. Some infantry should be rushed as well, we have 0 defenders in these 3 cities.

I did not trade our new tech, both Korea and Mongolia would pay well but we are making 750GPT, more than enough to steal whatever tech we may need.

What about the leader? Well I can't resist, we have 3 named Berserks so I make a Berserk army, to immortalize their last glorious battle!

On this note, Lord Jaxom retires to his quarters, uttering a prayer for the survival of his pet army.

Here is the save at the end of 1150 AD. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5_vikings_1450ad.zip)

Charis

Dec 17, 2002, 09:06 AM

Well done Jaxom!!

(BTW we're a very dry thread with so few pictures - I had to go back to page 3, 350BC, to see where Stockholm was!)

> Seoul completes the Universal Suffrage. Wnag Kon is tempting
> us with that city! Leonardo, Copernicus and Suffrage and a sign
> nearby that says "Up for grabs". ... Later Shakespeare

... smacks his lips!

> 1415 AD Wang Kon picked up Free Artistry.

> 1425 AD Korea has picked up Scientific Method, waiting to have
> enough cash for 2 safe attempts.
> 1430 AD Our sneaky spies bribe a few Korean scientist and...
> success! TOE in 4 turns in Bergen.

Excellent!! We're making good use of our superb cash flow (which is coming from... where? Just good 'building' game? It has the feel as if we're commercial. Must be all the water and harbors)
The 'frisky' stealing got us out of a deep hole and now that we're at the top and with a wonder at risk, nice job with the 'safe' steal. And good eyes on the Anarchy steal!

We're Vikings!! We don't need no stinking research!! We can plunder knowledge!! Er... speaking of which... if we're going to make a habit of this, we REALLY want to get espionage and start using spies. All this has been done with embassies!

> 1445 AD The deals with Hannibal are all expired now and he
> won't renew for a reasonbable price. Our valiant Berserks are
> itching for a fight and there is a prime target in range.

Deals over? You're among the most honorable men left in the Viking nation, Jaxom!

> Good start! A veteran Berzerk take on the remaining regular
> cavalry and capture the city.

They're using... CAVALRY DEFENDERS!!! Woot! Surprise is definitely working in our favor there!

When you took the city then mentioned Gades as next attack I was scared you were going to let Russadir live. Glad to see you took that was well. That means the island is ours?! :hammer:

And a leader to boot!? "Interesting" choice with the Zerker army. Tis fitting, very fitting, at least! Are there really no rivers on the map? Ah... continent wide anyway, if not at home it wouldn't help.

The Army will take 4-capacity ship to transport, but - we finally are in the era when that's possible, with Galleons. Actually... once we add a fourth member only a Transport can carry them. Oh wait, that's not til Pentagon and several armies. We've had two so far, iirc. A zerk army should be able to take out one infantry defender in about any town, but will need to rest after that :P

Radio... we might research something first??? Oh my! Now in PtW that has extra glamour, eh? Extra PITA for our assaults however, once the AI gets it.

Commercial docks... for an archi map, yummy!

> Gades is a high flip risk, I left only a token berserk there and
> moved everybody to Rusaddir.

Doesn't Gades have two other cities on that island? Won't it surely be recaptured by cavalry in a turn or two, since we have near zero defense?! Those cav move quick - either rush infantry IMMEDIATELY or abandon the city. Since there IS a harbor intact, infantry are possible - we can even disband a ship in the city if you need to for the rush, cutting the price to 1/3. Holding the city, with infantry, and rushing offensive units to take the other two cities would be a coup. Expensive, but it would only cost about 3-5 rounds of income.

The other route is, given that we've captured 3 cities and have 0 offense and 0 defense in the area, is to dig in until Hannibal will talk. (10 turns min?? Or quicker with 3 cities gone? I've never been sure) He will definitely pay for peace.

> Don't starve the cities, just rush workers out when you can.
"Export" a much needed labor force, I like it.

Have we thought about a victory condition?? I only ask because it has some impact on our immediate invasion tactics. If conquest, we should surely just raze and not capture, especially on cities we can't hold. If domination, sending forces to secure and island and capturing the cities is best. For Space Ship launch, we get to choose either, and have to assure ourselves of Aluminum and Uranium later. I think we can win either of those 3 ways. I don't have a strong preference either way, but do want to lead at least one Marine amphib invasion in my reign :P

The thought also hit me, if an AI were to actually get smart and land a boatload of infantry plus some cav on a mountain on our shores, it would be painful to dislodge. Do we have enough artillery in rail range on our core islands to repel such an invasion?

Charis

JaxomCA

Dec 17, 2002, 10:30 AM

hehe, I think we have a total of 1 artillery, it is in Mongolia. I completly forgot to upgrade all the pults to artillery, with our cash flow, it should't bea a problem. Hannibal is gassed, he didn't attack on my last turn, did not even move a ship within my sight. I left the city empty because there were 7 resistors in it. Like i said, if we still have it in a couple of turns, a bunch of berserk can be moved from Russadir in 1 turn, including the army.

After TOE, I wanted to take Combustion and Mass production to get those docks right away, unfortunatly, we still don't have steel.

Cartago Novo was taken by Mongolia, then retaken by Carthage the turn before I attacked. Oh and I wanted the deals to expire because we have so many luxuries to sell, it would be unfortunate to loose that cash input.

We do have a lot of coastal tiles, Oslo is pulling in almost 70 golds per turn with its stock exchange.

I would go for a domination or conquest. There are not many oils on the map, we have one, Carthages has two, Mongolia one and Spain one. It might be possible to take the oil from Genghis before he builds any tanks. Capturing the whole of Mongolia might be enough for domination.

Arathorn

Dec 17, 2002, 11:29 AM

Architect is up. I'm on deck... Just in case anybody was curious.

As far as cash flow goes, that's partly a product of a 'pelago map, and partly the product of my last set of turns. I put us on a big-time money-making path.

Our Mongolian city SHOULD BE (e.g. if it's not, upgrade ASAP) staffed by a dozen artillery and a good half-dozen infantry by now. If it's not, well, somebody was asleep at the switch. Guard those beachhead cities very carefully! The full might of Mongolia can hit there almost immediately (except for the stuff at sea, which is why the Mongol-Carthage battle is so good for us).

As for an AI amphib attack, I rather laugh at the prospect. First, even if the AI got its act fully together and landed two transports worth of troops on mountains on our main island, so what? Figure we have a half-dozen troops there at all times and can draft another half-dozen pretty easily. The AI's 16 attacking troops vs. our defending dozen in cities? With rushed units available the next turn? I'll take the human in a landslide.

I agree Seoul is tempting, but unless we can hit it fast and reasonably certainly, I would argue that the MUCH bigger threat that is the Mongols should get our first attention.

As for win type, I believe we should go for domination. To me, that's the natural goal for expansionist/militaristic civs. If it's looking nearly impossible, conquest would work just as well.

BTW, the time to hit Mongolia is about 5 turns ago...or in 10 turns when we're ready. They'll have a lot of troops tied up in hitting Carthage and won't be ready for a homeland stab (e.g. smaller counterattack). With the dogpile Carthage act going on, people will be less likely to ally against us (although we'll want to buy Korea and Spain in on our side (in that order of priority), if we can).

Looks like we definitely live in interesting times. Good luck to Architect.

Arathorn

JaxomCA

Dec 17, 2002, 11:47 AM

Odense currently has 1 infantry and 3 muskets I also forgot to upgrade. I was so intent on getting cash to steal Scientific Method that I mostly forgot about Odense completly :smoke:

On the plus side, it has built its aqueduct and grown to size 7. It is a decent producer so it might be a good idea to rush a factory in there and then put it on infantry build forever. Also, I did not build a single military unit in my turn, only factories and stock exchange. The next leader will not say "we are making so few shields" :)

Charis

Dec 17, 2002, 12:05 PM

On my watch if Mongols wanted the city, it was theirs for the taking :P

Now, with infantry, it's viable to hold it.
Note the artillery do *NOT* count as garrison - that poor city with all its guns is still a huge flip risk. I would buy some infantry there ASAP!

As for upgrades - we have no saltpeter. Or actually, we're selling it to someone (Mongols?) When that deal ends, have some cash on hand to upgrade, before/if you re- start the deal next turn. When I hit 'autoupgrade' (shift-U) it said 2800g to upgrade all cats! I had about 200g.

I like domination win best too, and agree the Mongols are the biggest threat and likely next victim. But probably continue to get a few nuggest of Carthage land while they're gassed.

Charis

PS in EDIT -- tnx Jaxom
- Ah, cannons need saltpeter, Artillery need... nothing. My upgrade look at Odense was pre-Replaceable Parts, so I was thinking no saltpeter meant no upgrade, but that was to cannons.
I needed the cash to steal anyway :P

JaxomCA

Dec 17, 2002, 12:19 PM

And we need saltpeter to upgrade...what? Infantry needs rubber, so does artillery, no? On my first turn I wanted to upgrade but didn't have enough cash, after that it slipped off my mind.

Arathorn

Dec 17, 2002, 01:05 PM

Umm...Odense (is that really the city name) should have ZERO flip chance ... unless somebody melded Mongolian workers into it. It controlled all 21 core tiles (and will forever, under the rules as I understand it). It has no first or second ring overlap with any other cities and was built with a native settler, right? With no foreingers and no infringing culture, it can't flip. Proximity to capital be d@mned, it has not base to get the flip chance started.

Saltpeter is only useful if we're going to build cavalry. We're probably a bit late for a real cavalry/artillery rush, so I would personally focus on infantry, artillery, and wait for tanks (which should be just around the corner). Slow slog through East Mongolia and evaluate. Some settlers to build replacement cities would also be prudent, but I would forget those, were I playing solo.

If selling tech would cripple Korea's and/or Mongolia's economy (even if we don't *NEED* the cash), it may very well be worth it. But, that's not my call. The slower the tech, IMO, the easier it is to whomp up on the incompetent AI.

Arathorn

Zed-F

Dec 17, 2002, 01:51 PM

FYI, artillery does not require any resource.

Architect

Dec 17, 2002, 07:53 PM

I got it and will not be able to play until Thursday morning

Architect

Dec 19, 2002, 11:36 AM

1450AD(0) Been a long time since my last turn. What a difference the industrial age makes! ;) I checkout the situation in Odense and upgrade 2 muskets to infantry and and switch from a granary to a courthouse by way of a knight and draft a infantrymen. Will upgrade catapults and other troops throughout my turn. Not quite sure I understand the coal plant plans but I'm going to make sure that the production of our core cities is maximized and ready for tanks. Pollution is going to get fun. Trondheim: Military Academy->Coal Plant. Rusaddir flips back to the carths we lose 3 beserks, and 3 galleons.

1455AD(1) I'm going to try and retake Rusaddir and we do losing 1 Beserk in the process against a regular infantry. With that flip I just don't think we are going to be able to do much more against Carthage. I'm going to risk the Army for resistor quashing duty. I do some forestry operations with extra workers and fortify a bunch more.

1460AD(2) Odense completes courthouse->marketplace. There goes the army in yet another flip. I really question not razing
these cities in the first place. Here's hoping we hold onto the rest of carthage we took.

2160g. Entermont switches to wall street. Next time someone turns cities over to me that are huge flip risks I will be abandoning them. :)

1465AD(3) Wow, nothing flips this turn. I trade Electricity to Spain for 33gold per turn, free aristry, wm and 19gold. Still hoping the mongols or the Korean's get espinoage and we can trade them Atomic theory for it. Korea and Carthage sigh a peace treaty.

1470AD(4) We complete wall street. I make peace with the carthagians for 150gold and 7gpt. I trade Free Art and SciMeth to Hannibal for 87gold per turn. Carthage has steel and we can work a deal with Atomic Theory. I'm going to hold off for now. I do trade dyes for 8gpt to Carthage.

1475AD(5) Russidar Flips AGAIN. How is it that I have 5 CF this game and there has not been a single other flip the entire game? Am I doing something wrong? I modernize a bunch of troops. We now have one city from the carthage conquest.

1480AD(6) I renegotiate the lux deal with the mongols costing us 7gpt more than last time.

1485AD(7) Most of our troops have been modernized. Sanitation is now available so I'm going to trade around Atomic Theory. To korea we trade AT for Steel, Communism, Sanitation, and 376g with Koreans. We then trade AT to the mongols for 103gpt and Wines.

1490AD(8) Rush alot of improvements this turn.

1495AD(9) ...

1500AD(10) More improvement rushing. Military Academy completes next turn and we should start building armies. Next turn our big lux deal to korea ends.

Anyone for a flip? (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5-vikings-1500ad.zip)

Roster:

Charis
Jaxom
Architect
Arathorn <-UP
Falsfire
Iteean

Arathorn

Dec 19, 2002, 12:25 PM

Guess war with the Mongols is out for about 18 turns....

I've got it and should start tonight but might well not finish until tomorrow. Looks like I'll be building hospitals and police stations. :)

As for the flips, Architect, we're so low culture-wise that they have to be expected. From now on, I'm on a strict raze-and-replace diet, if I ever fight a war again.

Arathorn

Charis

Dec 19, 2002, 01:00 PM

:eek:

Oh MY!! That is a bit of a nasty streak isn't it? Just hope it doesn't catch over into other games after this!!

I do think though, that in our game with our low culture, if we're 4x closer to their capital than ours we're running a 5-10% flip risk *per turn*, far to healthy to play with.

I think it's the ghost of Ragnar himself haunting us, taunting us... "Pillage and raze, pillage and raze!!" So I don't think I'll go against the flow and try to hold anything. As far was doing anything wrong, I'm not sure unless...

You are strictly starving these cities? It shrinks down, you re-move citizens to starve it down, and after rebellion, rush workers out, right? The formula doesn't take into account whether the workers are actually working tiles or acting as specialists, but... I've had games where putting ALL citizens to entertainers gave me zero flips, and letting them all work the tiles led to more 1- and 2- turn immediate flips than I've ever seen before. Since then, if I'm behind on culture, if I don't raze in the first place, I very strictly starve down the pop.

If you were doing this and saw 5 quick flips though, I will give up the thought that acting as a specialist helps.

Other progress in the turn looked good, especially that AT trade. And I think solid plan - crank up production, shield and cash, for when tanks come around, and then STEAMROLL. Raze, raze, raze, and on the very last city of another civ, size 12, capture it and rush out 6 settlers to claim the island.

Charis

Arathorn

Dec 20, 2002, 10:14 PM

Pretty boring set of turns for the mighty Vikings. Both beachhead cities are now well-defended -- probably enough so that even the full force of Korea and/or Mongolia couldn't crack in (but would probably pillage some).

Espionage was discovered by the other "big 2", but nobody has Electronics. I declined to purchase Espionage.

I halted the lux deal to the Koreans and didn't renew. The lack of lux will cause them a lot more than 44 gpt grief and it's only a drop in the bucket for our 1000+ gpt income. We have no active deals with Korea, but I don't think our forces there are enough to go on the offensive, yet. Shipments of artillery/infantry are in progress.

Mongols did decide to go ahead and finish off Spain. I basically gifted Replaceable Parts to Spain to try to slow that down, but it didn't seem to affect things much.

Save file at http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5-vikings-1550ad.zip
or at least it should be.

Arathorn

falsfire

Dec 21, 2002, 03:56 PM

got it, playing now...

falsfire

Dec 21, 2002, 05:40 PM

1550 AD [0] - We have electronics, but we do not own any rivers so there's no way to build Hoover. In fact, the only person who could *possibly* build it is Mongolia, as their landmass is the only one with a river on it. He's bound to get Electronics soon anyways, and is prepared to offer us alot of $$$ for it. I sell him Electronics for 83gpt, Espionage, 787g, and WM.

1555 AD [1] - Not much, cleanup some pollution on Celtic island.

1560 AD [2] - More not much. Cleanup more pollution.

1565 AD [3] - We lose two tiles of land at Odense, the Mongol beachhead city. I immediately swap production to university & rush it. We want ALL of the 21-tile radius under our control to avoid a devastating flip.

1570 AD [4] - I start to think, how do we want to win this? By space seems the most likely, though very un-Viking like. We have the most powerful economy by far, but no research infrastructure. If we start building some libraries, universities, we could turn our powerful economy into a research powerhouse. Should we turn on research now, and pull way out ahead of the competition? Or wait til we *have* some universities, libraries, etc in place. Seeing as we have *plenty* of troops in our beachhead cities, and can easily build alot more fast if needed, I swap all military-producing cities to libaries or universities.

IT: Carthage renews our peace treaty.

1575 AD [5] - more infrastructure. I rush a couple things here and there, we're still at 10,048g and +1,295gpt.

1580 AD [6] - zzzz...

1585 AD [7] - zzzz...

1590 AD [8] - zzzz...

1595 AD [9] - I renegotiate our saltpeter + ivory deal to Mongolia for 75gpt (up from 59gpt)

1600AD [10] - Well, since my turn started and we had 15% literacy, we're now up to 48%. Just call me falsfire, the great book-bashing viking who thrust books into the hands of his unwilling subjects and ordered them to learn how to read.

http://www.kaejae-worx.com/~devin/civ3/rbe5/rbe5_1600AD.zip

Unique Unit

Dec 21, 2002, 06:09 PM

Think of your spaceship as a proud dragon-headed longboat, crammed with zerkers, rocketing into the heavens in search of new prey. :viking:

Iteean

Dec 22, 2002, 02:38 PM

Space race? The idea has merit, but it would be totally against the ideals the Vikings hold most dear. Where is the pillaging, the razing, the death of the not-so-innocent? Since this is the season of giving, I suggest we give Genghis a vacation from ruling Mongolia! And if any AI dares to start a space ship, the capital would be easily within reach for a little re-engineering, Viking style.

:hammer:

I guess we'll decide the goal as a group, but tech superiority is nothing to sneeze at, so I'll continue the infrastructure push.

What about a campaign of resource denial if/when we hit the Mongols? They have two sources each of rubber and oil. The oil in particular should be pretty easy to take and would keep us from facing too many tanks. Something to think about.

Still, now is not the time for war. Gotta wait for those motorized galleys, err tanks. Truly, the descendants of the brave zerks who died destroying such Mongolian attrocities as the Sissy Chapel deserve their revenge.

1600 AD [0] - Conduct a head count. Odense has 14 infantry and 19 artillery. Nicely defended, but we'll need more troops for a real invasion.

1605 AD [1] - Entremont completes its granary and starts a police station. I notice Hannibal and Genghis both have Combustion. A Viking scientist does a little covert research of his own and we now have Combustion too. :) It only costs us 3 turns of cash. I upgrade a few galleons to transports, and then get antsy about Odense flipping, so I rush the colosseum it was building. It wouldn't hurt to get a real navy going, but I want to wait for battleships.

IT: Baghdad completes Battlefield Medicine. More libraries and police stations complete. Genghis completes Hoover Dam in Karakorum, all the more reason to raze it to the ground!

1610 AD [2] - zzz

1615 AD [3] - zzz

1620 AD [4] - Start more infantry as infra completes.

1625 AD [5] - zzz

1630 AD [6] - Trondheim starts an army. I rush a few improvements in our more useful cities so they can get back to military production.

IT: Genghis declares war on Hannibal! It sure would be nice if Hannibal got knocked out of democracy.

1635 AD [7] - Complete more infra, particularly police stations. Honestly, I don't build these very much, so I'll be interested in seeing if they help. Rush a few more improvements since we have so much cash.

1640 AD [8] - More infantry arrive at Odense. Wang researches Radio but has not traded it to anyone. We'll have it in 2 turns anyway, so no need to trade. I also decide to sell Combustion to Wang for 93 GPT plus 20 G to prevent another AI from leveraging it to buy Radio. This prompts another rush spending spree since we have an insane amount of cash.

1645 AD [9] - Genghis and Wang have Flight and Radio now. Guess somebody traded huh? I attempt to steal Flight from Wang but fail. Fortunately, our "scientist" was not discovered during his research.

1650 AD [10] - We discover the secrets of Radio. With all the Viking libraries and universities we have now, we could research Mass Production in 5 turns at -90 GPT if our next leader so wishes. I'll leave it at 0% science for now. I steal Flight from Korea in the meantime. Odense switches to an airport, as do a few other cities.

I've got some troops in boats still, so please make sure they find a suitable home. I tried to watch some of the Cathage / Mongolia war, but so far all I've noticed are ironclads sinking each other.

Here is a pic of the two oil sources for Genghis near Jaen and Santiago, adjusted slightly by me to remove the fog of war. I thought this game could use a little illustration.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5_map_1650ad.jpg

Someone please relieve Genghis of a few cities soon... :lol:

Iteean
rbe5-vikings-1650ad.zip (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5-vikings-1650ad.zip)

Charis

Dec 22, 2002, 02:53 PM

Nice turn Iteen -- Got it

I too wouldn't feel quite right about space victory, and yes, tanks are the time for our next phase. Game should be done tonight.

Charis

Charis

Dec 22, 2002, 08:38 PM

Everything is in far better shaper, and our short and medium term paths
much clearer. Covert research and overt building.

Speaking of covert ops, I see we have NO spies planted, and are taking
higher risks than we have to. Although Carthage and Korea are paying us
large gpt sums. With Carthage fighting Mongols and our other main threat,
I want to leave him be - the others I wouldn't overly mind them declaring
or think they would be scared to:
Ottomans - failed, no retort
Korea, Mongols - spy planted

[0] 1650AD - Overall the build orders look great, although I veto the Police
Station in Oslo which has only 1 waste and 7 shields anyway. Medina, otoh, could
use a PS.

The new spies show some disturbing facts - Mongols have 159 (!) infantry. Ouch...
Korea, 66. For others, will need spy.

We've got SO much income, I think I will try to research Mass Production ourselves.

[1] 1655 AD - Some airports complete, we start on Bombers. In Odense and beachheads,
Civil Defense (first time I've built one :P )

[5] 1675 AD - (IBT) Ottomans ally with Mongols vs Carthage
Augustodorum, size 20, has *9* excess food. There's no point in going above
size 20, as you just throw away shields. I mine the many irrigated grass there.
Then I look for other size 20 cities. There are none other that large.

I see another small problem we'll have to face - a Radar tower outside the
Mongol city of Ulaanbaatar. Not the only one we'll see :P

Carthage deal is up, we try to plant a spy... it works. Ditto for Ottomans.
Carthage's military is: 58 infantry and 9 cav, that's about it.
Did I mention the Mongols have 29cav, 19 artil, 12 destroyers, 13 bombers, 1 fighter,
28 guerrillas and 5 transports, in addition to their 159 infantry??

[6] 1680 AD - Mass Production done, Tanks, er... Motorized Xport, due in 5.
We start some battleships and carriers. Do *NOT* sell these techs, lets use that
cash to crank some tanks fast and deny oil and rubber *A*S*A*P*, before anyone else
can get tanks.

I note we're paying 41gpt for the privilege of exporting 3 lux and getting 2 from
the Mongols (just recently ended). Enough of that! We're going to let it pass.
That means we have to use 10% lux, but loss of 2 lux will hurt Mongols, plus, we
may be invading them before long. Speaking of which -- grab a lux city asap :P
BTW, Korea has Mass Production. They were either close or used covert ops.

[7] 1685 AD - Our wines from Mongol also dry up, lux slider up to 20%. Plan an
invasion within 20 or else buy 2-3 lux from them! The lux cost is high.
If you DO decide not to trade with Mongols, buy others into an embargo.
(Ottomans will take one for free, for example)

[10] 1700AD - (IBT) Mongols end the deal where they pay 75gpt for Ivory.
They're further hurting for lux now. (I hope?!)

Since we've not seen a photo of our core in over a millenium, here it is...
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBE5-Vikings-CoreMap1700AD.jpg

Notes to our next leader
- Motorized tech is due in 2, after it appears, probably want to shut down research
again, or snag marines for fun. Tanks are all we need for now - rush build several
if you plan to attack soon.
- This will send us into Modern Era. When Sci civs get there, send over our covert researchers
- Anything on 'cavalry' is a placeholder for tank (not too many)
- You have two plane-filled carriers each with a battleship escort off our
coast towards Mongol land :P
- Defenses have been shored up in our beachhead cities, including several bombers
and Civil Defense in Odense.
- Big decision is attack Mongols within your turn, or to trade lux's, cut back research,
and over next 20 turns build/buy about 50 tanks, THEN end the deals.

Save file 1700AD Vikings (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBE5-Vikings-1700AD.zip)

Roster:
Charis
Jaxom <-- UP
Architect <-- On deck
Arathorn
Falsfire
Iteean

Good luck,
Charis

Arathorn

Dec 22, 2002, 09:10 PM

My vote, FWIW, is to attack Mongolia about the time we get tanks. Raze everything east of the choke and replace with our own cities. That'll give us extra luxes, destroy their main capacity for war-waging, and put us into a dominant position. The 159 infantry is actually a lot less than I feared -- figure 60 or so will attack Odense and die in a hurry. I got ZERO worries about our ability to wage a successful war.

Arathorn

PS Don't forget that Commercial Docks are free of upkeep for us.

JaxomCA

Dec 23, 2002, 02:14 PM

Got it. This will be an involved set of turns so I am likely to take the full 48 hours to get it back.

Arathorn

Dec 24, 2002, 09:17 PM

Skip me until the 30th, please.

Arathorn

JaxomCA

Dec 25, 2002, 06:54 PM

1705 AD to 1750 AD

Once again Lord Jaxom is called upon to bring glory to the Viking nation. War has changed a lot over the years. It is no longer the friendly rumble is used to be. With planes dropping bombs on fertile land, artilleries killing civilians in cities and soon unstoppable armored vehicle to swiftly bring death and destruction, War was now going to be a very serious business where only one of the combatants would be allowed to survive. A look at the power factor:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5_power_factor.jpg

It is time to revisit the long-time feud with the Mongol. Their conquest of Spain and their successful Carthaginian campaigns has set them firmly in the leader's seat. Would there be anything more glorious than to conquer the world's most powerful nation? The military advisor is called in to give us an inventory of the armies.

The Mongol army: 28 cavalries, 165 infantries, 19 artilleries, 15 destroyers, 4 fighters, 13 bombers, 31 guerrillas, various rift raft.

The Viking army: 59 infantries, 43 artilleries, 1 destroyer, 2 battleships, 3 fighters, 11 bombers, 7 guerrillas, 1 berserk, various rift raft.

I like those odds, it is a fine day to die!

Preturn: The first order of business is to build fighters in any city with an airport, we don't want those bombers to shred our troops to pieces. Other cities get ready to build tanks in 2 turns. Ottoman is signed to an embargo on Mongolia and a MPP is signed with Wang kon for 2 luxuries. Here we go!

IT: Not the brightest kid on the block.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5_temujin.jpg

1705 AD All available fighters are directed to Odense. A zealous spy breaks production in one of Temujin's cities, he is steaming and declares war on us.

IT: Hannibal wants an embargo against Ottoman, we politely decline. Genghis launches an attack on Odense, many of his cavalries bite the dust, promoting many of our infantries. The real battle will be on the next round as there is a HUGE stack of infantries ready to strike.

1710 AD Motorized Transportation is discovered and research begins on computers with a single scientist. Our 2 new tanks are sent via air to Odense, many more are cash-rushed. Our artilleries punch holes in the stack. Our bombers put a nice aerial show but not much else, one of them is shot down by a fighter. Brace yourselves, here is comes.

IT: The Strong Scandinavia Air Force (SSAF) shoots down no less than 7 Mongol bombers. Many battles are fought, many infantries become elite, but two lucky guerrillas manage to kill 2 of our infantries.

1715 AD With barely 3 units lost and 2 tiles pillaged, war weariness is already through the roof. Drats, the Viking people have grown soft over the years. Luxury tax is raised to 30% but that will not cut it, we may have to become a monarchy. After many failed bombing runs, our bombers finally destroy one of the radar towers near Ulaanbaatar. An elite infantry produce a leader, who forms a 3rd empty army so that we can build the Pentagon. We have 3 empty army on the field, maybe we should... A lucky guerrilla kills 2 more elite infantry, but an elite cavalry take him out and produce another leader, who is used to rush the Pentagon on the spot.

IT: The SSAF shoots down 3 more bombers, letting one pass through. Many Mongol cavalries run to their death on Odense, fresh meat is served on a platter.

1720 AD This is ridiculous. 3 turns into the war with only 5 losses on our side and multiple victories to our credit, war weariness already enters phase 2. I don't have much experience with late game wars, but I have made many domination/conquest under republic without any problems. I think war weariness is broken, anyway, I spend all our cash to rush a final batch of tank, draft an extra MP in all cities and revolt to monarchy which will take 6 turns. The next leader can have fun with destroying Mongol cities. Yeah! Mongol guerrillas are ripping through our tanks as if they were card board cutouts! 2 tanks are lost to those super guerrillas and one of our bombers is shot down trying to take out a radar tower. Question: what is the effective defense rating of an infantry fortified in a metropolis on a hill with civil defense and and covered by a radar tower? 200% bonus makes it 30 if all bonus are added before calculation, 10 * 2 = 20 + (20 * .5) = 30 + (30 * .25) = 37 + (37 * .25) = 46. Charis, what are the odds for a vet tank taking on such an infantry?

IT: More cavalries die, more meat is served. The SSAF shoots down another bomber. Mongolia is eating up Carthage.

1725 AD The radar tower near Tosontsengel is finally gone. A destroyer sinks a mongol battleship, a submarine sinks a mongol destroyer. Erik Bloodaxe makes a brief appearance in Odense before rushing a battleship.

IT: Mongol and Carthage make peace. the SSAF shoots down 2 more bombers.

1730 AD Oh, marines have zone of control, didn't know that. More meat is disposed of near Odense, a 1hp unfortified infantry in the open takes out an elite tank, that makes a lot of sense. Leif Eriksson drops by and rushes a battleship again.

IT: The SSAF shoots down another bomber but looses one of its members.

1735 AD Carthage is signed to an embargo against Mongolia. While mopping up some lost marines near Odense, Canute makes a brief appearance before building his own battleship.

1740 AD Well that was plenty useless, 12 boats bombard, a single hit is recorded. Many marines are mopped up near Odense. What? No leader? Hmm something is wrong here. :) Oh, I forgot about Healfdene, who wants his own ship too.

IT: More marines meat move up to Odense, another SSAF is lost in battle. :( A Mongol battleship sinks one of ours.

1745 AD The mongol battleship is now a home for some marine life. Another Mongol battleship is sunk near Odense. All marines are mopped up and no new leader shows up. :(

1750 AD ...

I'll let the next leader decide what to do with our forces now that we are a monarchy. There are many settlers in Verulamium and Odense ready to fill in the gaps, if you can make any. There is a potential IronWorks south of Tosontsengel, it is close enough to the capitol as not to be hopelessly corrupt. If the luck with leaders keeps up, it should be easy enough to develop that city. Genghis just discovered Motorized Transport on his own and has 1 tank. There are 2 empty armies in Odense and one almost full with hero tanks.

Army inventory Mongolia: 15 marines, 6 cavalries, 112 infantries, 1 tank, 20 artilleries, 13 destroyers, 1 battleship, 20 fighters, 2 bombers, 13 guerrillas.

Army inventory Viking: 76 infantries, 17 tanks, 43 artilleries, 5 destroyers, 9 battleships, 5 fighters (SSAF), 8 bombers, 3 armies, 5 guerrillas.

Good luck, destroy the Mongol for us, before they launch a spaceship. :)

Here is the save at the end of 1750 AD. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5_vikings_1750ad.zip)

Architect

Dec 26, 2002, 10:46 AM

I got it.

Let's see how many culture flips I get this time. :)

Will take awhile to get this one back.

Architect

Dec 27, 2002, 07:20 PM

1750AD(0) My goals for this war will be two-fold. The first goal is to deny the Mongols rubber and oil. From my examination of the map there are exactly 3 oil resources in the northern mongol continent and all are reachable by battleships of the northern fleet.

Northern Fleet: 5 Battleships and 1 destroyer.

Operation Frozen Storm
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5frozenstorm.jpg

Admiral Bloodaxe and a Destroyer head to oil resource 2 which will take 3 turns.
Admiral Eriksson and a Battleship head to the oil resource 1 which will take 5 turns.
Admiral Canute and Admiral Healfdene head to the oil resource 3 in two turns.

Southern Fleet: 2 Carriers, 4 Battleships and 2 Destroyers.

Operation VD

2 Battleships and a destoryer head to Rubber A and will reach it in 5 turns.
2 Battleships, 2 Carriers, and 2 Destroyers Head to rubber Resource B. Our carrier fleet is not yet united so a single carrier will be escorted by 2 destroyers, the other by 2 battleships. It will take 3-5 turns to unite our carrier fleet.

The second goal is the capture of Karakorum. Karakorum has Hoover which is the heart of this Mongol power house. Remove this along with the resources and Mongolia will be crippled for the viking horders to plunder!

Operation Nutcracker
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5nutcracker.jpg

First I notice there are 16 Artillery in Korea. I'm going to need these to beat down a size 24 super city so I start transporting them to Odense. They will arrive in 2 turns.

Operation Nutcracker starts by moving as many forces as possible into the Mongolian Nature Perserve. Then the tanks will move through the Killing fields taking Mount Karakorum by force if necessary. The infantry and artillery will have to survive an attack in the Killing fields which should be interesting. I move the Tank Army and seven veteran tanks, 8 infantry, 12 artillery, 1 calvary, and 1 guerilla into the Mongolian Nature Perserve. I leave a 7 Infantry behind to escort the 16 artillery from korea. We have 14 artillery, 4 healthy elite tanks, and 5 elite infantry in odense to battle for great leaders if the mongols continue to attack it wastefully. I notice that the foolish mongols have left Mount Karakorum undefended. Lets hope our luck lasts.

IT: Mongols sink one of our southern fleet's battleships. Mongols throw 9 marines at Odense and ignore the Nature Perserve.

1752AD(1) - I order a new battleship and rush it to completion. Our tank army storms Mount Karakorum. Our artillery from Korea arrive in Odense. The mongols now have five tanks, I expect to see them soon. Oil 3 only has roads after 1 turn of bombardment. I backtrack the portion of the southern fleet that was headed for rubber resource 1 to move it outside the range of the battleship. I defend Odense and get the leader Inwaaer with the last attack and rush another Battleship. We move 13 artillery and 7 infantry into the Nature Perserve.

IT: We catch the Koreans trying to plant a spy in our capital. The killing fields do serious damage: We lose 1 tank and 3 infantry.

1754AD(2) - The Admiral Inwaaer is commissioned in Odense. Admiral canute sinks a Destroyer protecting a mongol Carrier. Our destoryer sinks a mongol carrier and promotes to Elite! Oil 3 is offline for now. Next turn we are in position to take oil number 2 offline. We move 7 Infantry and 13 artillery into the killing fields. Our army knocks out a the radar tower protecting Karakorum damaging it all the way down to six. Hubba, sacrifices himself and takes out the other radar tower south of Karakorum.

IT: Mongols attack Odense and our elite infantry produce the leader Hubba! The mongols ignore the Killing Fields!

1756AD(3) - Hubba rushes a battleship. Admiral Inwaaer attacks a destroyer defending another Mongol carrier. He sustains heavy damage but promotes to elite. Admiral Canute sinks the carrier.

Operation Nutcracker Round 1: Courthouse, Stock Exchange and 1 citizen destoryed.

The mongols have 10 tanks now. I expect a fierce counter attack or assault on Odense. I leave 8 artillery defending Odense and launch an offensive to begin bombarding Tosontsengel (Toson). I sign a trade embargo with the Koreans against the Mongols. Hannibal will not sign an alliance or an embargo for anything. He has 3 sources of oil so that may foil my resource denial plans but we'll deal with that when the time comes. I trade communism to the ottomans. If he switch to it that's worse for his empire at its current size.

IT: A destroyer sinks Admiral Canute. The attack on Odense is fierce and our artillery position near Toson is reduced from 4 infantry defenders to 2.

1758AD(4) - Admiral Hubba is commissioned. Oil 1 is offline. Oil #2 resists two battleship bombardments. We get Eric BloodAxe from a battle near Odense and another Battleship. We sink a mongol Battleship.

Operation Nutcracker Round 2: Temple, Library. That's crazy. 25 artillery and that's it (4 infantry were damaged). I investigate the city and they do only have 1 oil and 2 rubber so let's hope.

1760AD(5) - Operation Frozen Storm is complete. The mongols lack oil. Rubber source A is disconnected. Admiral Heafdene is badly damaged after sinking another mongolian battleship and must return to port. Admiral BloodAxe Jr. is commissioned. Bloodaxe Jr leaves port and is attacked by a Mongol sub. He defeats it and is promoted to elite.

Operation Nutcracker Round 3: Airport, Bank, Cathedral and others destroyed. Little bit better this time. I'm tempted to just throw everything at it but I wait. The bombardment of Toson goes much better: 2 Citizens, police station, barracks, stock exchange, temple all destroyed. I'm going to attack toson. We take it losing 3 tanks in the process. I raze it to the ground.

Lief Ericcson is produced and rushes another battleship.

An investigation of Barcelona reveals the mongols don't have any oil. Let's see if they trade for it next turn. Barcelona also happens to be the location of the mongol intelligence (is that an oxymoron or what?) agency.

IT: Our troops moving to Mount Karakorum are ambushed kill 3 tanks and 2 infantry.

1762AD(6) - Admiral Lief is commissioned. I investigate a mongol city and they have Oil again. That bastard Hannibal.

Operation Nutcracker Round 4: Down to size 17. What a tough nut this one is.

We get Canute II moping up attackers around odense I order up another battleship.

IT: Our settler survives in the killing fields. I'm going to found a city here. I rush an aqueduct so I can use some workers to boost it to size 7.

1764AD(7) - Admiral Canute II is commissioned. Haried is founded on the killing fields. Operation VD is complete. Both rubbers are disconnected. Another Great Leader Healfdene II rushes a battleship.

Operation Nutcracker Round 5: Down to size 10! Next turn Karkorum will fall. I build a number of radar towers with mongol
workers.

IT: We lose three Infantry and a setter trying to found the Iron Works City. Hareids hold and nothing attacks Odense.

1766AD(8) - Hareid is made size 7 with strong Viking blood.

Operation Nutcracker Round 6: Down to size 1! It is time to rip the mongol heart out and drink of their blood! We storm the mongol capital plundering and pillaging! The great Viking demolition experts DESTROY the mighty Hoover Dam forever crippling the mongol homeland. The rampaging flood waters sweep away the city leaving a cold still silence.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5razehoover.jpg

A dam on a river.. BAH, a river should be allowed to flow free so vikings can sail upon it!

We land 6 tanks and 2 infantry off the coast of Kazan. We intend to remove eliminate the production of silks hoping to force the mongols to break treaties with the bastard Hannibal.

IT: Rather than seeing a whole bunch of tanks we see marines attack Hareid.

1768AD(9) We have removed all but one of the silk resources (the city of Kazan is on top of one.)

A great Leader Inwaaer is produced. I order up a second tank army full of used up elites. I'm going to send six infantry and a settler to the Iron Works city location. Hopefully that will be enough to survive whatever is thrown at us.

I'm going to launch a new offensive against Ulaanbaatar (Ulaan). I have destroyed improvements so that any attack by tanks on our force in the open will result in the attacking unit being left in the open for a counter attack. I'm going to send both tank armies into this battle.

IT: The Koreans demand Horses. I give it to them. The mongols attack a few times, but the resistance is minimal.

1770AD(10) I land a small party on the island with Rubber A to take out the worker that has reconnected it. We found Molde
on the Iron works site. We bomb Ulaan down to 17 but it looks to have only minimal defenders. I'm going to attack it. We take it with NO losses and raze it to the ground. I found Alesund in its place and rush some walls.

Looking at the situation, the mongols have stopped producing tanks or greatly slowed down as they only have 2. So look for lots of marines, the AI's new favorite unit.

I have left what units can still attack this turn fortified in the middle of what used to be the mongolian core. Please do something with them as they are exposed. There are also numerous battleships all over that have been fortified. Don't forget to use them to destory improvements. I'm still trying to destory all the luxuries improvements to get the deals with Carthage cancelled. .

We could use a few more bombers as they have all been shot down but one. Bombers seem less effective than I remember. Maybe its just that the AI uses air superiority more. The MPP with Korea has expired though it is still active. I would renegotiate until mongolia is eliminated.

New Mongolia
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5newmongolia.jpg

Mongolia is toast!

1770AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5-vikings-1770ad.zip)

JaxomCA

Dec 27, 2002, 08:10 PM

Yeah! Die Mongol dog!

For a moment I was worried you wanted to CAPTURE the Hoover Dam, I am glad you burned that atrocity to the ground, let the rivers flow freely!

I would try to get Hannibal to sign an MPP if possible, that will stop the oil from reaching Mongolia.

falsfire

Dec 27, 2002, 09:22 PM

got it.

won't be able to play until sunday, going snowboarding for the first time ever tomorrow :D

Charis

Dec 27, 2002, 10:07 PM

Now we see why they call you Architect!

Operation Nutcracker, Operation VD, coordinated attacks...
The only thing better would have been some sequence diagrams in UML!! (oops, sorry, a little software architect humor there)

Way to go!! It's a real pleasure to see us not only take a
crack at the world superpower, but to use our tiny little outpost Odense to base a stack that would raze their capital and the Hoover Dam?! Woohoo! :hammer:

Like Jaxom I was glad to see the Dam razed. Also glad to see no flips! ;p (To induce less fear in your readers, click the "No raze it" button, which is a radio button not a dialog-closing button, THEN take the picture :P ) I don't think I have ever or will ever see so many leader-rushed *battleships* in a game!

I've been using rubber and oil denial to good success on deity lately, a sound strategy here. I like Jaxom's idea of MPP to cut the oil. We'll be at it for 20 turns I'm sure.

Great job, and good luck to falsfire, as much on his snowboarding adventure as on the upcoming turn!
Charis

Architect

Dec 28, 2002, 02:06 AM

I should have mentioned that Hannibal will not do a MPP for any amount I could muster. Even 660gpt was not enough. I think Genghis has pictures...

I'll remember the radio button tip too Charis.. :) I'm already embarrassed my pictures came out so screwed up but I ran out of time and wanted to get the turn up. I'm NOT doing UML for you however, that would seem too much like my real work!

:D

falsfire

Dec 28, 2002, 08:58 PM

please pass me in all upcoming turns until further notice. i just found out i lost two close friends this christmas season and gaming is just not something i can do right now

Iteean

Dec 29, 2002, 11:02 AM

I'm so sorry to hear about your loss, falsfire... :(

@Architect: That was a marvelous set of turns, and very entertaining to read with all the maps and such. I believe I am up now, so I've got it.

Iteean

Iteean

Dec 30, 2002, 05:55 PM

An interesting set of turns. I have quite a few questions after playing them in fact...

First thing is to measure the military situation. Our military is strong compared to the Mongols, excellent! More specifically, we have 69 infantry, 31 tanks, 51 artillery, 2 carriers, 5 destroyers, 15 battleships, 4 armies, 5 fighters, and a single bomber. The Mongols are down to 97 infantry, 2 tanks, 16 artillery, 11 ironclads, 6 destroyers, 14 fighters, and a bomber. The small number of tanks is encouraging, but Genghis does have rubber back on-line (very temporarily), so I expect some more soon. The large number of Mongol fighters is discouraging and had me seriously considering not building too many bombers in the short term. I ignored this thought later though.

The only thing I miss is the roughly 400 GPT more we were making as a republic. Such a shame the Viking people did not rally behind the cause more. I'm sure some Mongol treachery was behind that. :mad:

I also note that the Mongol city of Hadrumetum has a rubber source, currently disconnected. Did it jump there recently? Operation VD continues, by popular demand!

Interrupting the trade deal between Genghis and Hannibal would greatly speed the conquest of Mongolia. Continuing the work of my predecessor, I dub this Operation Broken Promises. I suppose it is possible Genghis paid cash for his oil, in which case we are just out of luck. I count five furs in Mongolia, four of which are connected. Since Genghis claims to have two extra and everybody else is boycotting Mongolian luxuries, furs might be part of that deal. We have zero chance of affecting that part though. I also see Carthage will not trade for our only source of wines, so that is another possible deal breaker. That will be easily dealt with at Hareid when our borders expand (we can pillage the remaining wines with ease). Finally, I notice Genghis does not have any remaining silks, so he is trading away his last one at Kazan. If I cannot raze that city, I can blockade its harbor and that's the end of that, since it lacks an airport.

1770 AD [0] - What's this, a battleship within range of Kazan? It was bombarding spices near Dalandzadgad, but I move it to blockade the harbor of Kazan instead, to distrupt the silk trade. I'll move it back if it doesn't disrupt the trade deal.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5_silk_blockade_1770ad.jpg

Sure enough, Genghis now has 1 extra (?) silk to offer up. Double-checking, I cannot see any more silks, so this must be considered "extra" since it is not connected to the Mongol capital anymore. In any case, Hannibal is about to get shafted on some trade deal with Genghis, maybe he'll be more amenable to a trade embargo! :)

I buy Carthage's WM and make sure the rubber source at Hadrumetum is disconnected. I then decide to make this a higher priority by sending the fleet at rubber source A to Carthago Novo to pick up some airlifted forces, then take care of this last source of rubber once and for all. That would reduce Genghis to throwing guerillas at us, right?

I pull the rest of the fleet away from the shores of Mongolia to avoid artillery attacks. The plan is to raze Kazan and then take Tabriz. Once Tabriz falls, we will be able to concentrate our defense on that choke and leisurely mop up the rest of the former Mongol core. The 10 or so tanks and artillery that were sleeping move into Mount Karakorum for some relaxation while I wait for infantry backup to arrive. The arty bombards the wines outside Hareid's boundaries just cuz they can. They disconnect 1.5 wines (leaving a road). Whew, ok now I click on end turn.

IT: Wang is a little grouchy and threatens to leave our MPP. Incense, dyes, and a little GPT convinces him to stay. Oh Wang, you're such a kidder! I also renew the embargo against Genghis with Osman. We lose an infantry at Alesund to a Mongol tank, they lose a cavalry.

1772 AD [1] - Genghis is up to 7 tanks. I investigate Vitoria and see 1 source each of rubber and oil. According to the foreign advisor, Genghis and Hannibal still have an active trade deal, blah.

I airlift a tank and an infantry to Carthago Novo to be used against Hadrumetum. Genghis tries to sneak a transport past Carthago Novo but a sub shows him the folly of this. A battleship sinks the transport, but is injured quite a bit while doing it. It will need to be repaired before doing anything else. That still leaves two ships to escort the transport, so no real delays there.

A Mongol worker gladly sacrifices himself for a radar tower to protect Alesund. Well, I didn't really ask him, but I'm sure he didn't mind... I unload more troops near Kazan, bringing the total to 8 tanks and 5 infantry. We kill off a tank and two infantry that were invading.

Operation Broken Promises continues: artillery disconnects the last Mongol wine, cancelling some other deal with Carthage. At least I assume so, since Hannibal wouldn't accept our wine before and now he will.

I decide the attack on Tabriz will be via transports, so Admiral Healfdene and crew start bombarding rails there to slow down reinforcements. Arty at Hareid and Molde does the same to create a buffer zone. If we don't prevail in the resource denial, a steady stream of Mongol tanks could be very ugly without mech infantry, so I'm just buying a little insurance. Hopefully those missing rails won't hurt us later. I want their tanks to be exposed to one round of artillery fire before they get to attack our cities! Right now they can be built and attack any one of three cities immediately, requiring too much spreading of our defenses.

The lack of direct rail access to our cities allows me to concentrate defenses on Molde. Architect's small raiding party takes the Mongol rubber offline. What's this? Vitoria still has a source online? How exactly did that happen, it had exactly one source before I moved the infantry onto the last rubber source, and now it still has one? Grrr...

IT: Osman and Hannibal sign a peace treaty. They were fighting?! :) We lose one infantry at Kazan and two at Molde to Genghis' tanks. He now has 11. 4 of those tanks and a cavalry cannot make it to Alesia and stall just outside our borders, easy targets.

1774 AD [2] - The party at Carthago Novo hops aboard a transport and heads toward Hadeumetum. A battleship destroys the harbor at Nora along the way. This fleet confirms that the rubber at Hadrumetum is connected. Not for long tho!

Back in Mongolia, arty bombards all Mongols in sight and finishes disconnecting our borders. I also rush two libraries to expand our borders and give us more breathing room. An army takes out a radar tower. Genghis is back down to 5 tanks. Molde gets its own radar tower. I have a few arty shots left over and take out some frustration on Choyr, killing one pop. Most of the action is at Molde though.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5_map_1774ad.jpg

The troops attacking Kazan raze it to the ground, barely. We only lost two tanks, but everything else was very seriously injured. I had to throw infantry at it to capture it.

IT: Genghis and Wang sign a peace treaty. And then Wang immediately redeclares due to our MPP. :rolleyes: Genghis moves 4 more tanks in to be killed. He now has 18 though! That kind of production has just got to stop...

1776 AD [3] - I kill off all 4 tanks Genghis brought to the party, protecting our tanks from counterattack with armies.

A tank and infantry land next to the worker on the rubber at Hadrumetum. Our first destroyer shoots true, taking out the road, and I expect the worker will retreat from our invasion force, leaving that source disconnected for a while. Vitoria still has rubber though! What is going on here, did Genghis trade
for it during my turn, or is the city screen not realtime for spy missions?! I could be blitzing with tanks if not for this.

I am starting to have second thoughts about my plans for Tabriz. Any city founded there would be absolutely surrounded with Mongol culture. A culture flip there could annihilate more troops than I care to lose.

I have no doubt we will prevail over Genghis, so I wanted to try a little experiment. What if I could cut off Mongol oil at the capital?Barcelona is a little too far inland to hit with battleships, and it would take quite a while to get enough bombers through all those fighters. How about coaxing the capital to jump to Hovd or Zaragoza where it can be more easily cut off? Would that work? I end up abandoning the idea, but it might have been fun to try.

The troops wounded at Kazan hop aboard a transport to be brought back home. I am not quite ready to found a city there since it would draw the full force of the Mongol tanks away from my already-set traps.

While I gather troops, I decide to damage and/or raze Choyr. Artillery opens fire from the mountains at Molde amd takes out a barracks, temple, market, library and reduces the population from 18 to 12. I then gather up spare tanks and infantry and move them outside Choyr. It will fall next turn. I find myself short on spare tanks at the moment, so production all over is switched and I rush a few to replace those I just borrowed for Choyr.

IT: Ouch. Mongol tanks kill several infantry fortified on hills without taking a single point of damage. We also lose one infantry at Rubber Source A. It makes me glad for my buffer zones elsewhere. A battleship sneak attacks but is sunk. 8 tanks and a cavalry move into my killing fields.

1778 AD [4] - Genghis is at 17 tanks. I confirm at Vitoria that he still has rubber and oil despite being cut off his own supplies. Admiral Lief cuts off the second to last source of spice. 7 tanks in the killing fields die without any losses to our side. Oh yeah, and Choyr is razed as predicted, with no losses. A local transport picks up as many of the attackers as it can, since I fully anticipate a violent Mongol response and don't want to be around to see it. Several Mongol workers are put to the axe rather than giving them back against a Mongol counterattack. War is hell. Mongols are back to 8 tanks.

IT: Culture boundaries expand, giving yet more breathing room. The only Mongol attack is to finish off the tank that razed Choyr.

1780 AD [5] - 5 Mongol tanks take a different path through the killing fields now, but are still easily picked off with artillery. More wounded arrive at Molde and are railed back to Odense for treatment.

IT: We lose all troops on Rubber Source A. Genghis moves 4 tanks into the killing fields to sacrifice them.

1782 AD [6] - I move a battleship back to rubber source A to keep it offline. All 4 Mongol tanks die in the killing fields, with still no leaders. What a dry spell! Artillery takes out the last Mongol spice, but I don't expect it will break the oil / rubber trade. I move a settling party onto the ruins of Choyr after messing up the Mongol rail network in that general area. Virtoria still has rubber and oil... Operation Broken Promises is a failure.

IT: One infantry in our settling party is killed by a Mongol tank, who takes no damage! These tanks are invincible if not bombarded down to 1 hp. Rubber source A gets a radar tower. 5 more Mongol tanks enter the killing fields.

1784 AD [7] - I destroy the radar tower. Bodo is founded and walls are rushed. We lose another bomber to enemy fighters, but take out every Mongol unit anywhere near our borders. Oh yes, and Hubba finally makes another appearance. He wanted
to build his own battleship, but I rush the Iron Works instead. I cash rush a battleship and dedicate it him though. I also rush a few bombers.

IT: No attacks at all from the Mongols! 5 of their tanks move in to be killed.

1786 AD [8] - We hook up spices at Bodo and move the lux slider back to 0%. Erik Bloodaxe III appears while mopping up wounded tanks and rushes his own battleship. I've cut off rail support to Hovd, so it is ready to be attacked.

IT: More of the same. No Mongol tanks are able to reach me and leave themselves vulnerable to counterattack.

1788 AD [9] - Hovd loses 5 pop, barracks, colosseum, stock exchange, temple, market, hydro plant, library, and factory to artillery. Its defenders are pretty badly wounded too, so I go ahead and attack. The city is razed losing only one tank, and three promote. Oh yeah!

IT: Nothing really.

1790 AD [10] - Found Karasjok on the ruins of Hovd and rush walls.

Suggestions to next leader: I left many troops sleeping throughout Mongolia to allow you flexibility in choosing the next target. I left a stack of 38 arty, 20 tanks, and 13 infantry by Hareid. Tabriz has already been softened somewhat and would be a really nice shortcut for our fleet between north and south Mongolia. The other two cities in east Mongolia are also easy pickings. I left a transport in Carthago Novo that could be used to raid a Viking rubber colony for fun. Our fleet that tried to cut off Mongol oil is still in the vicinity. I just dropped by from time to time to make sure the oil stayed disconnected.

I would also consider moving some Viking population to Mongolia since Molde is halfway useful with the Iron Works. You may also want to build a carrier or two since we currently have more planes than places to put them. Here's what Mongolia looks like now:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5_map_1790ad.jpg

Unit counts:

Us - 79 infantry, 41 tanks, 56 artillery, 2 carriers, 1 sub, 5 destroyers, 18 battleships, 6 fighters, 11 bombers, 4 armies.

Mongolia - 79 infantry, 11 tanks, 16 artillery, 5 destroyers, 12 fighters.

In other words, go get 'em! :hammer:

rbe5-vikings-1790ad.zip (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5-vikings-1790ad.zip)

Iteean

PS: Does anyone know why or how Genghis had a source of rubber even when I cut it off? Can the AI automatically negotiate to obtain more, even during my turn, or did I just totally miss something? Or is the city view screen not real-time for espionage missions?

Also, if you cut off all trade routes to the capital, does that prevent all luxuries / resources from coming into the civ via trade? If I had razed Barcelona, for example, and the capital jumped to Hovd, and then I pillaged all the roads to Hovd and blockaded the harbor, would that interrupt the oil flow into Mongolia, or just into Hovd?

Architect

Dec 30, 2002, 06:10 PM

Roster:
Charis <-- Up
Jaxom
Architect
Arathorn
Falsfire (Skipped Until Further Notice)
Iteean

The whole resource denail thing is just not working because of Hannibal it seems. That's unfortunate because its key to the whole campaign being easier. I don't have answers to your questions about the capital or spy missions as I haven't tested either in PTW. I know at one point if you cut off the capital they couldn't trade anymore.

Charis

Dec 30, 2002, 09:57 PM

Looks like good progress, ye mongers of war!! :hammer:

'Got it' but won't finish tonight - with tomorrow's festivities, it could be a tad slow.

Happy New Year all!

Charis

Charis

Jan 01, 2003, 01:54 PM

Charis the Red again took the helm of power, and saw his great
Viking nation into it very thick with the Mongols! Also, there
was a mystery about how they were getting rubber. Charis the Red
vowed to get to the bottom of this and cut off their rubber for good!
Hmm, oil confusion too.

The previous general Iteen did a fine job, and has left many units
awaiting orders, with a large stack outside Hareid. We could use another
carrier and several more peeps at Monde, our Iron Works city.

The histogram is MOST encouraging. We look to our mil advisor for details...
Vikings: 79 Inf, 41 Tanks, 56 Artil, 11 Transport, 2 Carriers, 18 Battleships, 11 bombers
Mongols: 79 Inf, 11 Tanks, 16 Artil, 3 Transports, 12 Fighters, 7 Guerrillas.
Despite having 100gpt unit costs, we're raking in +732gpt income!

They have THREE oil sources on their home, none connected. Jaen, NE, Barcelona.
Carthage DOES have one extra to sell them, near Leptis Minor. And a third unconnected.
Not sure if you've noticed, but... the Ottomans have TWO oil! The extra one at
little Izmit. They have no rubber (We DO have a trade embargo with them and Mongols)
Koreans have no oil at all, and no extra rubber. We have a useless embargo with Korea too.

No one has computers - they're due in 12 turns for us, and if any civ with oil
and rubber gets it, our job gets a TON harder (Mech Inf). If we didn't think these
resources urgent before, it is direly so! The source is definitely Carthage.
Carthage harbors: at least four on their mainland, four on their island.
Mongol harbors: About nine on their mainland. No way to cut off the routes.

If/when we DID have Mech Inf, land three dozen near Barcelona, surround it and
pillage it, end of Mongols. Hmmm, that sounds good actually. There IS a Mongol-
Carthage deal, and it no doubt includes the strategic resources.

[0] 1790 AD - We start with several small rushbuys like Barracks in Aresund,
Tank at Carthage Novo. Swap a 3-for-2 food tile between Birka and Reykavik
to give both zero surplus at size 12. Switch a few bombers to fighters in queue.
We gather 8 workers, our and Celtic, to ship over to Monde Works. Stockholm gives
back a poached tile to Bergen. Bergen also takes a tile from Oslo, so it makes
a more useful 61 rather than 59 shields per turn. Alesia gets a little work to have
it make 40spt not 38. Mine at Richborough gets us from 22 to 25 shields, better for
making 100 shield tanks. Damascus too gets mining to shut down grown but hit 20spt.

Charis the Red notes... we're making 96% military units. Let's MOBILIZE for war,
to be sure we stay true to the Viking Spirit!! :hammer:
Entremont hits 90spt! Bergen 86, Camul 80, Trondheim hits 74spt, Lugdun 72, Mecca 70.
Camul can swap from plains to water for half turns at 90spt, half below. For now
it stays at 80spt and cranks one fighter per turn. We get Bergen up to 90spt also,
which is one infantry per turn.

An hour and a half later... we decide our military plan. Take out the remaining
two Mongol cities to the SE of their old home, we just don't want a two front war.
Then we prepare a massive build up of infantry plus some transports ready to
assault their capital directly on the arrival of Computers. Charis the Red's
plan is an "end around" Tabriz, rather than go straight through. If Computers
shows up early, we WILL steal if. If we're first we shall NOT sell it!
We'll also bombard more roads leading up to Tabriz. We don't fear tanks with Mech Inf,
but want to cut the Mongols off before they can make Mech Inf too.

In bombing near Tabriz we luck out and shoot down TWO interceptors. They seemed
hurt to start, suggesting their building planes but no airports :P

[1] 1792 AD - IBT the Mongols strut 7 of their new tanks out in the killing
fields in front of Karasjok. And no support to keep up with them. With no tower
and the odds way in our favor, it's brutal on the Mongols. We promote two tanks
after bombarding each one down to 1 or 2 hp. In fact, we purposefully do NOT
knock out the road in front of Tabris to *LET* them get as far as they do and not
back one step where we would become exposed.

The assault action is at Dalandzadega, first knocking out the radar tower. Then it's
easy rollin' and the city is razed. A settler is due shortly to resettle it.

(IBT) Pretty quiet, guerrila loses to our inf in mountains. ONE tank moves to fields.

[2] 1794 AD - You CAN bomb away a radio tower, it doesn't fall the same turn the
road under it does, but another bomb hit after that can take it out. And so it
did next to Mandlagovi! We take out a Stock Exchange too. A mini-transport arrives
at Molde, and... we add several workers, renaming it to... "Iron Lager!"

(IBT) Koreans are building the UN. Grrrr....

[3] 1796 AD - The radio tower in SE Mongolia is guarded by an inf, bombed to 1hp,
slain, and we surround the last SE city. Five tanks come out to the killing
fields. All elites attack, but no leader. I'm hoping to get one, steal Fission,
and rush the UN. (Er... can you do that under Mobilization?)

(IBT) Korea WANTS to extend the Mongol embargo, for free. We agree.
Then they start the Manhattan Project. We see a Mongol destroyer and transport
heading past our ship. More tanks come to the killing fields, and one hits our
mountain infantry near Nora and defeats it, before dying attacking our tank.

[4] 1798 AD - Our tank army blitzes Choybalsan, the SE Mongol city, and defeats
it. Size 1, raze or capture? In ANY other game I capture, in this flippy game,
I raze it :P Setter is on the way.

Tabriz gets hammered, losing library, harbor, marketplace, and pops. Now 13!

Our battleship, the USS Admiral Canute II, takes out that destroyer, dropping to 1hp.

With our treasury up enough for a safe steal, we discern Fission from the Koreans.
We *CAN* make the UN, Odense is ready to accept the honor, if we ever get a leader.

[5] 1800 AD - With the road behind Tabris blown out, now the tanks end up in a more awkward
spot in the killing field, in the middle instead of our border.

Actually, this is a great time to move up. Tabriz will be size 12 this turn,
Computers are due in just 7, the roads leading up to it are blown out, and...
no radio tower!! It's time to raze Tabriz, and we'll make a settler to re-found there.
We start by bombing out that last piece of road in FRONT of Tabriz, so our tanks
killing his will be safe. (Actually, it's 12 now, he drafted)

Finally! Leif Erikson! Master tank commander and student of nuclear physics and
grandmaster diplomat appears in the killing fields! Disheartened by all the fighting
he rushes to Odense to build the UN!

Down south we spot another destroyer-transport pair, and kill both with Battlship
and sub, then our other Battleship, the Hubba, kills that transport from last round.
(This is all NW of Carthage Novo, btw)

Settlers and armies sleeping in Odense?? Oh my. I send a few out. Will save the
armies still, for Mech Inf one soon.

[6] 1802 AD - We plow through next to Tabriz. 24 Tanks are ready to attack.
While we 'could' go now, we'll wait for our 30 artillery pieces to fire at
it next round :P

[7] 1804 AD - Poor Tabriz. University, Factory broken, and city slammed down to...
Size 6 :D They poured in defenders last round, but they're all 1hp except for
the guerilla now on top. If no leader from this I would be disappointed...
After almost a dozen kills, we're down our last elite. Aha!! There is...

Canute II, aka Charis Canute. In doing this I notice we've been Pentagon'd and
can put a fourth unit in. I fill our two tank armies to four each. We steamroll
Tabriz without a loss, just one tank retreat.

Who has Uranium, you ask? We do! But can you guess where? Two, both in areas
we just took from Mongols! Good timing :P Hareid and Karasjok. On the latter
now sits a radar tower and infantry. Ottomans have none. Korea has one on colony
near Paegam. Also one outside Pyongyang. Mongols have one near Murcia, and one
on colony near Hadrumetum, disconnected. Carthage have it outside Oea.

(IBT) Mongol tanks hit our tanks. Next round we take them all out, even swap.
Carthage moves troop transport into Russadir. I airlift some units there to be safe.

[8] 1806 AD - Lots of troops move forward, lots of shelling. The tank army
takes out the infantry-radio tower (iRT) on the hill. Some other tanks spill
slightly south and raze Mandalgovi, losing one tank and defeating 3 defenders.
(Come hither, settler!)

Will Mongols talk? Sure, but they won't give up Rocketry. 8-\
Also, they have Computers (!) :eek: Well, our treasurer says we're authorized
for a careful go at Rocketry, and so we take that from the unwise Mongols.
We're 4 turns from Computers ourself, and should be able to afford a mass upgrade.
It will be up to our next leader to either call for peace or to disconnect
all roads next to Barcelona.

We have ONE aluminum! Guess where? Odense!! What a great city! :hammer:
Carthage lacks all three modern techs. Ottomans have aluminum, Korea also
at Paegan colony, and Malaca colony. Carthage do NOT have any, but will seek
to fight over it at Malaca. Korea has none on their mainland, so space ship
denial should be straightforward by whacking the colonial sources. Then again
Mongols have three.

(IBT) Mongols and Korea come to peace. Carthage starts Manhattan (so they got Fission)

[9] 1808 AD - Ugh!! Bad news -- (no, not a flip!) The Mongol cities right infront of
of us have... Mech Inf. I'm glad we took Tabriz JUST in time, and crushed the small
town to SW of it, but that's bad news for the tank assault team. We lost a few of
said team by tank counterattacks mid-round.

How many do they have upgraded to MI?
47! (OOOOOOWWWWWWW!!!!!)

The darn Carthaginians screwed us. The Mongols got computers before we could
strip the roads around Barcelona. This doesn't change the outcome, but turns it
into a much bigger slugfest. 8-|

I'm going to end the turn by pulling the tanks back, settling the town, and
not lose any more of them, while we wait 3 turns for Mech Inf. Then the next
leader can form a new plan. Canute gets sent to Trondheim or Mecca to rush SETI
in about 3 turns. 'Tapanukeg' is founded on the chokespot, old Tabriz.

[10] 1810 AD - We trade one tank with Mongols.

** Korea's MPP finishes NOW. Also they have Amphib War, we have many spices.

Military Stats
Before Round, 1790AD
Vikings: 79 inf, 49 tanks, 56 artil, 2 carriers, 17 planes
Mongols: 79 inf, 11 tanks, 16 artil, 7 guerilla, 12 planes

End of Charis the Red's turn, 1810AD
Vikings: 100 inf, 47 tanks, 59 artil, 7 carriers, 37 planes, 2 nucl sub
Mongols: 47 MI, 5 tanks, 13 artil, 18 inf, 2 marines, 3 guer, 9 planes.

We've gained +50 heavy units, they've lost -30 units, but upgraded 47 inf to MI.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBE5-Vikings-1810ADmongolia.jpg

Notes to our next leader
- Canute is on a transport - if you plan on peace move him into Trondheim or over
to Mecca to rush SETI (Computers due in 2, but even so, *can't* build now
due to mobilization). If no peace soon, make an army, or rush Manhattan or other.
- Careful about shifting the few cities building mktplace, aqueduct or comm dock, as
you would not be able to reselect those non-mobilized choices.
- When mobilization is done, Iron Lager should get a rushed aqueduct, courthouse,
Police Station, Factory and Power Plant. There are also Celtic and native workers
improving the area specifically targetted to join that city. It will then crank ~100spt!
- Alesund will have a harbor next turn. Send the 1hp battleships here next
round to rest and heal. There are three right near it.
- Three or four carriers need to be moved/deployed where you want them. One or
two battleships are heading to Carthage Novo for repairs (or SHOULD head there)
- There are a few infantry awaiting airlift, and most troops at front line with
Mongols have NOT moved.
- Stavenger is ultrapolluted, consider a boatload of workers to help it.
- MPP with Korea and Embargo with Ottomans expire this turn. Decide if to renew (yes!)
- Speaking of front lines... the two tanks on the mountains should likely move up to
be with the army, or move back. The hill outside Toledo is interesting. From it we're
being hit with about 4 artillery per round (if they had any sense they would hit with
all they have!). Either pull back off the hill, or... move our artillery stack of
doom up there and pound both Toledo and ... mercilessly. The army is enough to
dissuade attacks for another round or two until Mech Inf arrive.
- 11 Fighters, mostly on carriers, one already in Hareid, need upgrades to Jets,
if not needed this round, send them to Hareid for upgrade.

Save File 1810AD Vikings (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/RBD5-Vikings-1810AD.zip)

Roster:
Charis
Jaxom <-- UP
Architect <-- On deck
Arathorn
Falsfire (skipped til further notice)
Iteean

Good luck, and Happy New Year!!
Charis

(PS in EDIT - Oops, save file got RBD name, not rbe)

Architect

Jan 01, 2003, 02:28 PM

These have been really good turns guys! This has been quite an assault.

One note to the next leader. Don't underestimate the power of the cruise missle. At least in 1.29 it would target the defenders in cities and can kill so a combo artillery/CM barrage on a mech infantry fortified city makes a tank charge much easier. They cannot airlift or transport (at least they aren't given that ability in the editor) so we'll have to rush buy them on the Mongolian mainland.

JaxomCA

Jan 01, 2003, 03:27 PM

got it

Rowain deWolf

Jan 01, 2003, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Architect
These have been really good turns guys! This has been quite an assault.

One note to the next leader. Don't underestimate the power of the cruise missle. At least in 1.29 it would target the defenders in cities and can kill so a combo artillery/CM barrage on a mech infantry fortified city makes a tank charge much easier. They cannot airlift or transport (at least they aren't given that ability in the editor) so we'll have to rush buy them on the Mongolian mainland.

You can load them on transports

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CruiseM.jpg

HTH

and a great Game ;)

Rowain

JaxomCA

Jan 02, 2003, 03:41 PM

Skip me, RL taking over and not enough time to do the turns properly.

Architect

Jan 03, 2003, 09:13 AM

Well crap... It feels to soon for me to take a turn again. Arathorn, can you jump in and take your turns ahead of me?

Arathorn

Jan 03, 2003, 11:34 AM

Sure thing. Should be able to play ... tonight...or tomorrow night (or maybe both, considering the state of the world at this point).

Arathorn

falsfire

Jan 04, 2003, 04:21 PM

I'm back, and since I think it's my turn next after Arathorn anyways, I'll pick it up after him.

Arathorn

Jan 04, 2003, 11:37 PM

Oy vey! Tired King Arathorn retires in 1830 AD, with some highlights and lowlights.

Biggest lowlight...losing a 19 hp tank army to a one hp mech infantry. Not across a river, not uphill, city but not metropolis. YUCK! We also lost a source of Uranium. Korea completed Manhattan, too, just to make the world more interesting.

Highlights. Raze Bach's Cathedral to the ground in 1818 AD. Destroy Madrid and acquire furs as our 8th luxury in 1822 AD. I made peace with Mongolia in 1828. I was a bit out of position and wanted to absorb island colonies the easy way. We're stuck with 20 turns of peace with him, but that shouldn't be bad. I already have forces en route to Carthage...and forces ready to evicerate Korea, should we feel the need. We have no MPP with Korea and only a trade embargo vs. Mongols in effect with them. No deals with Carthage.

I used the end of mobilization, too, to start a few non-unit builds. I'm feeling the lack. Upgraded a ton of infantry to mech. infantry but more can still be done. I found myself with never enough cash. About 5 turns into the next player's turn, we should get a few border expansions to help with filling in cultural gaps.

I highly recommend rushing airports on some of our new islands. Some cities are set to build airports. Rush them in a turn or two would be my advice. We'll need 'em. You should also get a settler to help fill in some more of old Spain (aka West Mongolia) your first turn.

Carthage shouldn't have mech infantry, but I don't have nearly enough artillery en route. Mostly, I just have beachhead makings and rubber eliminators.

Good luck.

Save at
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5-1830ad.zip

Arathorn

Architect

Jan 05, 2003, 12:56 AM

Roster:
Charis
Jaxom
Arathorn
Falsfire <-- Up by request
Architect <-- On Deck
Iteean

Charis

Jan 06, 2003, 10:01 AM

Regarding the rushing of airports... one thing I'm doing alot now with PtW is after razing a city that gives you some workers, sometimes their border drops back and you can build an airstrip on the spot.

It's cheaper (1 worker) and quicker (same turn) than rushing an airport - something to keep in mind for PtW that was never possible in vanilla Civ 3.

Also, regarding Cruise Missiles - you can load them on transports but not fire them from transports. (Too bad non-nuclear subs can't do this :P ) A fun UU alternative for the Americans would be a "Tomahawk Missile" - a beefed up Cruise Missile, although the engine still wouldn't allow firing from a ship (nuclear sub maybe?)

Charis

Arathorn

Jan 06, 2003, 11:59 AM

I got about 6 cities from the Mongols as part of the peace settlement. Those cities are on hostile islands, completely undefended, with no workers at all. It may well be smarter to rush a worker and use him to make an airfield, but the key point is that defenders (and ability to reinforce NOW) is very important.

I built precisely zero cruise missiles, zero fighters, and maybe one bomber on my turns. I just can't justify spending money on a one-time shot like a cruise missile when I can build a tank who may very well live to see another day. The economics feel bad to me. I hate losing units and using a unit I *KNOW* I'm gonna lose, well, just seems wrong. Maybe someone can teach me the error of my ways?

My turns took me way later into the night than I was hoping, so I gave a pretty skimpy report. I pushed us across the whole southern part of old Spain, conquered a couple islands, and then gained another island and beachheads in the peace settlement. No new techs showed up (at all), so we're still just down amphib assault.

Mongolia may still be the biggest threat, but I'm sure we way cut their cultural gain in half. Realistically, the only way we can conceivably lose at this point is to a cultural loss. Seoul is the only city which might be close to 20K, but I didn't investigate to find out how close. Mongols have the most culture, but I don't think they're even up to 70K yet, so I wasn't worried about 20 turns of peace.

I used bombers to eliminate radar towers. Artillery is hitting units less frequently in PtW, so I was using them all in one uber-stack hitting a city every other turn, on average. Tank casualties were high but not unreasonably so.

IMO, the key resource is rubber. Without rubber, the best unit a civ can produce is guerilla (and artillery). Land contests become a joke. Who cares about oil? Well, it's worth caring about if you can't get to their rubber....

Ottomans are a joke and can be eliminated at pleasure. It may be wise to do, just to give us a beachhead on the other semi-main Korean land. Carthage should definitely be next up on the chopping block, though, as they're rubber suppliers for the world (except us). And I would recommend not trading away luxuries at this point, as the AI's unwillingness to use lux tax will kill it from needing so many entertainers.

More thoughts,
Arathorn

falsfire

Jan 06, 2003, 07:25 PM

i won't be able to play it til Tuesday night, tho...

JaxomCA

Jan 07, 2003, 04:31 AM

About Cruise Missiles.

You can loose a few tanks to mech inf. in cities, even when they are in the red. I think the rate of fire of a cruise missile is 2, or even 3, so you might kill a wounded mech inf. with a single missile. The chance of scoring a kill when they are in the red is very high. Also, a tank cannot attack an annoying ship who is bombarding our shores, a cruise can. At only 60 shields to build, you set all cities below 35 spt on that job and you always have some cruise around. I usually have 2 60 spt cities working on cruise missiles so I get a new one every turn.

Nice job on your turn Arathorn. Before I skipped my turn, I was considering an attack on Korea main island to get rid of that high culture city and gain a decent share of tiles for domination, maybe they should be on the chopping block next instead of Carthage. I don't think we need much more tiles to win now, maybe destroying Mongolia in 20 turns will be enough.

Arathorn

Jan 07, 2003, 07:49 AM

We can hit Korea at pretty much any time. I re-built up our beachhead city on their main island. It probably has enough forces for a careful assault to raze all their core cities. We would probably need to rebase a few bombers/fighters to the area, but the forces on-site should be sufficient to absorb all the Korean attack (with minimal losses) and then go on the offensive.

I did NOT renew the MPP with Korea with this in mind. We still have a trade embargo vs. the Mongolians with Korea that is active, however, which I didn't feel like breaking. Also, I saw Carthage as a bigger threat -- since they have rubber. If/when Korea is attacked, make sure you wake all the units there in our beachhead city. I moved across a few artillery (~12) and probably another dozen or so tanks.

As for cruise missiles, they have less chance of success than a tank (same attack but only 3 chances vs. 4 for a vet tank, so odds are the cruise wins about 2/3 and the tank about 3/4, elite tanks win about 5/6), have no chance of survival (vs. ~75% that the tank survives), can't be airlifted, provide no defense, still cost 60% of the shields, never promote or produce leaders, and will never upgrade to something even more useful (modern armor). As for annoying ships, the same comparison can be made with destroyers, except the chance that a destroyer lives is even greater than the odds that a tank will (bombarding ships have much lower defense than a fortified mech infantry).

At 35 spt, you can get a cruise every two turns or a tank every three turns. Cruises will need to be transported via ship, are one-shot only, have less chance of success, and are guaranteed to be destroyed. I'll take my tanks, thank you.

In 24 turns, then, said city can make 8 tanks or 12 cruise missiles. Ignoring transport time and just concentrating on how many mech infantry those can be expected to take out, the tanks still win hands down. Your cruise missiles average about 8 kills (simply 2/3*# of missiles). Ignoring promotions but giving tanks healing chances, the tanks will average over 16 kills (8 tanks vs. 8 mech infantry gives 6 dead MI and 2 dead tanks. 6 tanks vs. mech. infantry gives better than 4 dead MI and 2 dead tanks but we'll figure that. That's 10 MI for 4 tanks. 4 tanks kill 3 and lose 1. 3 tanks are beter than 2 and 1. 2 tanks are better than 1 and 1. 1 tank is better than 0 and 1. That's another 6 (but really it's closer to the 10 figured above.)) Twice the kills, with less hassles? Why build cruise missiles?

As for tiles for domination, we're still a LONG ways from that. Remember that all costal squares count in the domination count. Taking out Korea and Mongolia wouldn't be enough. We'll need to dent Carthage and/or the Ottomans, at the very least, plus have time for cultural expansions. It's still very possible that conquest will be easier than domination.

If falsfire chooses to pursue both Carthage and Korea, it will be a bit dicier. Not sure whether it would be faster or slower in the long run. My personal thought was to beat up some on Carthage while getting another dozen or so artillery to Korea and then hit up Korea, too, while continuing vs. Carthage. In ~~20 turns, get concessions from Carthage and finish off Mongolia and see where we're at. That's only one of a number of good plans, however.

It's very possible I've played my last turn in this game.... Have fun all.

Arathorn

falsfire

Jan 07, 2003, 08:03 PM

sorry, guys, something has come up and i won't be able to play tonight. as i have class tomorrow, i won't be able to play til at least thursday. if you can wait, i'll play it then, but if somebody else wants it b4 then, go 4 it.

Architect

Jan 08, 2003, 07:37 PM

I got it.

Architect

Jan 10, 2003, 12:12 PM

I am still working on this game. It is in a very messed up state right now and trying to get everything organized for the invasion of Carthage and the assault on Korea is taking alot of time. I'll try to post by Sat. night at least a few turns.

Architect

Jan 11, 2003, 02:36 PM

1830AD(0) - I rush an airport on our island colonies. I decide to attack Carthage and Korea. Carthage has 2 main islands and I'm going to attack the weaker of the two as it supplies their oil and only one city is size 12 so our armies and tanks should be able to plow through with little artillery support. Korea will take the bulk of our artillery forces so i'll move many by transport.

1832AD(1) - Helsinki and Kaflavik are founded on the mongolian continent to fill in some gaps and take control of a uranium resource. Lots of troop movements.

1834AD(2) - Going to attack carthage.

1836AD(3) - Found Thunderfall which grabs an oil from mongolia. NExt turn we declare war on carthage and land our invasion force.

1838AD(4) - Cultural expansions allow me to demand the mongols leave our islands and they do without a war declaration. I dial up hannibal and demand AW and he declines. I declare war. We take and raze Sulcis, not taking chances with flips.

IT: Carthage pulls forces from its homeland to attack some of our island colonies. Foolish Hannibal.

1840AD(5) We found Arhus on the carthage second continent and rush and airport. Our bombers take out the Radar Tower near Cadiz and we attack razing it to the ground. We raze Russadir to the ground.

1842AD(6) Lots of troop movements. Two more turns for the attack on Korea to start. Korea has ecology now.

1844AD(7) Carthage now has computers. More troop movement. We declare war on Korea. We take malaca.

1846AD(8) We take Hyangsan and raze it to the ground. We take Oea and raze it to the ground.

1848AD(9) We get another leader. Sabratha is razed.

1850AD(10) We raze Leptis Minor. I form an army with our last leader. It is waiting in Aarhus with 3 tanks to be loaded in next turn. Korea is counter attacking with Infantry.. haha. All infantry dead. Pyongyang should fall next turn. I capture Manp'o.

There is a transport in Keflavik for an attack on the Korea 2 (an island near the ottomans) I have left a defense force fortified in a mountain in Mongolia incase the mongols attack. Don't leave the mongolian continent completely undefended attacking the second korean island with forces from mongolia. There are three tanks in a transport near Carthage Novo that could also be used in the attack on Korea 2.

We need more settlers down in carthage to reclaim some of the space. If you take out Rusicade (the oil is under it), that will get the last of the carthage Oil and drive them from their second continent. The assault on the first will probably be pretty bloody with the majority of the artillery in Korea. Don't let anyone nuke us.

This should be my last turn.

Roster:
Charis <-On Deck (maybe the winner)
Jaxom
Arathorn
Architect
Falsfire <- UP if you want it
Iteean <- UP if falsfire can't get it

Here's the save:

1850AD (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5-vikings-1850ad.zip)

Iteean

Jan 12, 2003, 04:32 PM

Well, it has been more than 24 hours since the last post, so I guess I've got it. I'll post the results as soon as I can, but I expect all this fighting might take a while! :)

@falsfire: if you could post sometime within the next 24-48 hours so I know who to pass the game on to, I'd appreciate it! Just say if you want to switch with me or pass.

Iteean

falsfire

Jan 12, 2003, 10:35 PM

@Itaean: I will try and pick up the game after your turn. If I can't, and I can get the chance to view the thread, I'll post that I can't.

@all: Sorry, I've been extremely busy w/ various stuff lately. Term 2 has started in my college nightschool, among other things to take away a large chunk of my free time.

RL always takes priority, and I'm sure all those in this game w/ me can relate with that :)

falsfire

Jan 13, 2003, 07:15 PM

please pass me after Itaean. I have just been soooo busy lately and don't have the time for games.

sorry, team.

Iteean

Jan 13, 2003, 07:51 PM

Once again, Iteean ascended to power over the Viking people. Being a man of action, and somewhat sleepy at the time, the monarch quickly assessed the situation and made his plans. Iteean's predecessor, a cunning general and architect of destruction, had already plotted the simultaneous downfall of both Korea and Cathage. Iteean longed to see these plans to completion during his reign.

The destruction of Carthage was inevitable at this point. Half of its once mighty cities lay in ruins. Iteean remembered vividly the numbers of Vikings who had died from Hannibal's meddling in the Mongolian Wars, and would take no small pleasure in repaying the insult. First Hannibal would lose Rusicade and its precious oil, then an invasion of the Carthagian homeland would occur at Hippo. What the Vikings lacked in artillery in Carthage, they made up for with a mighty fleet.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5_carthage_front_1850ad.jpg

Wanting to make the newly gained lands his own, Iteean immediately funded numerous groups of people willing to emigrate from Mongolia. The trip would be long and possibly dangerous.

The Koreans had seen better days as well. The mighty artillery that had ravaged Mongolia was now pounding the city of Pyongyang. Supply lines were short, reinforcements were plentiful, mainland Korea's days were severely limited.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5_korea_front_1850ad.jpg

Though he had long forgotten why the Vikings were attacking Korea, Iteean was not about to let Wang Kon get away and hide in New Korea. A transport was ready to go, so he diverted tanks and a group of settlers to take over that island as well.

The power rush finally overcame the monarch. "We must take Osman's lands as well!" he declared one day. Yet another transport would soon be filled, this time with an Ottoman relocation party.

1852 AD [1] - Catching wind of King Iteean's relocation plans, Osman tries to garner favor with a renewal of the Mongolian Embargo. He is sent packing with a cruel chuckle. The king had learned earlier that Pyongyang and the secretive Manhattan Project were destroyed, relieving the fear of nuclear reprisals.

1858 AD [4] - The Viking armies dominate the field of battle. Carthage loses Rusicade, Korea loses Namp'o. The invaders of New Korea land near Uskadar. Bombers and artillery prepare for the attack on Hippo.

1860 AD [5] - Vikings raze Uskadar and assault Seoul. A tank brings home a curious idea known as Ecology, acquired from spies fleeing Seoul. The Vikings have no need of such technology.

The game locked up on me twice during turn 6 with a bomber being intercepted by a fighter. I tried to replay as closely as possible.

1862 AD [6] - Iteean declares war on the Ottomans and lands the relocation force in the mountains near Iznik. To his horror, he realizes he forgot to include some mech infantry. Osman's Siphali capitalize on the mistake and kill every Viking within their borders. The invasion of Carthage is much better organized, with a decisive group of forces now upon Hippo.

Another lockup and replayed turn here.

1864 AD [7] - Seoul and its swarms of defenders are finally burnt. A descendant of Erik Bloodaxe arises from the chaos to build a grand battleship. The Vikings complete the SETI project.

1866 AD [8] - To his utter dismay, Iteean learns the people of Logrono have revolted and joined the Mongolian "empire". Such disloyalty cannot go unpunished! Emboldened by the destruction of the Korean capital, Iteean launches three major offenses against Kaesong, Wonsan, and Hippo. Hippo is razed, giving a much needed beachhead city in Carthage's core. Vikings also capture the now-small town of Paegam and decide to keep it. And at long last, the promised settlers from Mongolia arrive in Carthage and promptly settle many cities.

1868 AD [9] - Kaesong is razed, Agedincum will fall next turn. A descendant of Leif arrives and rushes a library to commemorate the building of the Great Library of Scandanavia. Iteean's advisor suggests that he call a meeting of this "UN" which has been purely a puppet organization of Viking power. He is fired for his trouble.

1870 AD [10] - Temujin calls to request the renewal of the Mongol-Viking peace treaty. Iteean is caught by surprise, trying to stall for time and more information, but the Mongol leader is crafty and demands an answer. Iteean knows his defenses against the Mongols are rather thin right now. Almost surely, Temujin will capture a city or two before he can be stopped. The thought of 40 more years of this horrid peace is more than Iteean can stand though, so he declares war and hopes for the best. Asturias and Lillehammer fall before he can even contact his military advisors to warn them. Oh they will pay for that! Except...

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5_victory.jpg

Game over?! :hammer:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5_histograph_final.jpg

And here is the Final Save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/rbe5-vikings-1868ad.zip). I believe all you have to do is end the turn, and then refuse the peace treaty with Temujin.

It's been a lot of fun guys! Oh, and completely satisfying to put the Deity AI in its place. :D

Iteean