View Full Version : How the Demographics works


Bamspeedy
Nov 19, 2002, 02:55 AM
Although the Demographics screen isn't really useful, many people are curious as to what those numbers really mean. Many people had theories and could figure out by themselves how some of them were figured.
Here is my analysis after extensive testing in the debug mode for PTW:

Approval rating: This one's easy. The percentage of your people that are happy. If every single person is happy, you have 100%. If everyone is content it is 50%. Edit: This can be misleading when you get specialists, because the specialists count as only content people. So even if everyone is happy or an entertainer, you won't have 100% approval rating if you have any specialists.

Population: Add up all the population you get from the city view from all your cities. Not population points, like size 1, 2 or 3, etc. but the 10,000 or 100,000 you see under the city name.

GNP: Total gold in all your cities before corruption takes a bite out of it.
1 gold= 1 million

Mfg. Goods: Total unwasted shields in all your cities.
1 shield = 1 megaton.

Land Area: # of tiles in your territory * 100.
1 Tile =100 square miles
Sea is included in this, but does not help in the territory part of your game score.

Literacy: % of your citizens who live in a city with a library, university, AND research lab. If every city has just a library you will have 33%, because they are missing the other 2 science buildings.

Edit: Or live in a city with 1 or more scientific Great Wonders (Great Library, Newtons, SETI, Theory of Evolution, Cure for Cancer, and Internet) Copernicus's does not count because despite it helps science, it isn't given the scientific flag. Having 1 of those wonders counts the same as if they had all the other improvements in the city. Two small wonders (apollo and Intelligence Agency) give you credit for having 50% science in that city. You also get 3% added to your literacy rate when you get the literature tech. No bonus when you get education. Great Library still helps your literacy rate even after it is obsolete.

Disease: % of the tiles in your territory that is floodplains or jungle.

Pollution: # of tiles that are currently polluted.

Life expectancy: % of your citizens who live in a city with a granary, aqueduct, AND hospital. Minimum is 20, maximum is 99.

Family Size: The average amount of excess food that each city is producing/2. If you have 1 city that is producing 4 extra food, that 4 food would feed 2 people, so your family size would be 2 children. Minimum is 1, hard to say exactly what the max would be. In most cases you won't see this above 2, maybe 3 or 4 if all your cities are extremely rich in food, experiencing a very fast growth period or just put down a alot of railroads on irrigated tiles.

Military Service: 10 years * # of military units / # of citizens. Military units are units with an attack and defense value, so workers, scouts and princesses don't count. Kings do. So at the start of a mass regicide game you will have a military service of 70 years because of the 7 military units *10 years divided by just your 1 citizen. 0 years if you have no army or you have just a few units, but thousands of population points.

Annual Income: The number of connected strategic/luxury resource types in your territory. The minimum value is 1 and you get a +1 bonus for your first trade route with another civ. Thanks DaveMcW

Productivity: The total amount of uncorrupted gold, unwasted shields, and excess food you are producing in all your cities.

cgannon64
Nov 19, 2002, 02:31 PM
:goodjob: Good to know, Bamspeedy. I wouldn't be able to help you with the Income, though. I didn't have a clue about any of these until this thread! ;)

CG

satchel
Nov 19, 2002, 03:52 PM
Bamspeedy, those are really interesting. Thanks for all your great detective work. You might consider posting these in the general discussions forum, or at least getting a link to them put in the FAQ. Really, nice job.

Folks will undoubtedly now commence critiques (not of you, but of the formulas). Here's one: family size confused a lot of people because if you have only 1 child per family, your population will shrink, not grow (neglecting immigration). So, the formula should really start at replacement rate which is a little more than 2 per family (one for each parent, plus extra to replace those who don't have children) and add to that the one child per two surplus foods in a city!

But of course, it doesn't matter, because these demographic numbers are just there for a little goofy post-game entertainment. :crazyeye:

Thunderfall
Nov 26, 2002, 03:10 AM
Great stuff Bamspeedy! It's added to the War Academy. :)

ukrneal
Nov 26, 2002, 03:32 AM
Wow. Great work bamspeedy!

Question: are you sure the pollution is the tiles polluted and doesn't have something to do with the little triangle thingies?

Also, does the Great Library affect the literacy rate for the civ that builds it?

Ossric
Nov 26, 2002, 04:11 AM
indeed, wonders like the copornicus observatory, newton's college & the SETI can push up your literacy rate (especially if they are built in the same city)

the number of shields produced in a city also increase your science rate!

ZeroOne
Nov 26, 2002, 04:20 AM
Literacy: % of your citizens who live in a city with a library, university, AND research lab. If every city has just a library you will have 33%, because they are missing the other 2 science buildings.

So are you saying that in the ancient times literacy % can be only 33 by maximum and that 100% cannot be reached before modern times?

Squirrel
Nov 26, 2002, 06:00 AM
Originally posted by Bamspeedy
Pollution: # of tiles that are currently polluted.



Are you sure about this one? I thought that it depends on the amount of pollution produced by your cities as seen from the poison triangles in the City Management Screen.

Portuguese
Nov 26, 2002, 07:15 AM
:goodjob: Great job!
But can you explain better that produtivity thing?!? :confused:

Bamspeedy
Nov 26, 2002, 04:44 PM
Ok, about the literacy. There does seem to be a very small percentage that is influenced when you get the literature tech. When you get the literature tech, your literacy goes from a minimum of 0% to 3%, and 3% is added to your literacy rate. No change when you get education, though. So with only a library in every city, you will have a literacy rate of 36%. If you have a great Wonder (science one), this counts as the city having all the improvements. All science great wonders and 2 small wonders will add to this percentage, but Copernicus's does not.
So to get 99%, every city must have all 3 science improvements OR any science Great Wonder (edited my first post to explain which ones are covered). Although it would be foolish to have Newtons or SETI in a city without the other improvements...
If you have many cities then the wonders won't really add to your literacy rate too much. Shield output has absolutely nothing to do with literacy rate from what I've seen. Literacy rate will of course go up or down depending on which cities are growing in population and if they have the science improvements or not.
So in ancient times it will max out at 36% if you have just libraries, 99% only if you have the Great Library also, and just have 1 city. In modern times it will max out at 99%.

Yes, I have checked the pollution. I can quickly add 75+ people to my city getting 60+ pollution icons, but the megatons of pollution will still sit at 0, until I end my turn and the pollution forms. If 1 tile gets polluted it shows 1 megaton, if 5 tiles, then 5 megatons. This can be helpful when micromanaging your workers to clean up pollution, so you know you got them all.

Bamspeedy
Nov 26, 2002, 04:58 PM
Oh, I forgot about the productivity....
Total excess food of all cities + Total shields that every city is producing that is NOT lost to corruption/waste + total commerce that every city is producing that is NOT lost to corruption.
The commerce part is helped by marketplaces, banks, libraries, etc, depending on how you allocate your spending.
Edit: And shields would be helped by factories.

This is easy to check when you first found a city. In this example, I settled on grassland (no river nearby), and my 1 citizen is working a bonus grassland square (not mined or irrigated). I am producing 2 shields (one from the city center tile, plus 1 from the bonus grassland square. I am producing 2 EXCESS food (actually producing 4 food, but 2 is being eaten by my citizen). And producing 3 commerce (from the capital center tile). 2+2+3=7 productivity. As I mine (or irrigate in other governments), or road the bonus grassland tile, I will produce more shields, commerce, or food in some cases (not in despot because of the tile penalty), so my productivity will increase. If I set science to 100% or 0%, it doesn't make a difference, but if I have libraries, universities, etc. it would because those improvements would multiply my uncorrupted beakers, thus improving my productivity.

Cantankerous
Nov 26, 2002, 06:50 PM
Bamspeedy, this is exceptional!

Thanks for doing the research on this. You've uncovered the mystery of Civilization.

hbdragon88
Nov 26, 2002, 11:10 PM
Great work on another great article.

I think that annual income is influenced by what you get in commerce and some other factors. I'm not sure because I'm not a freak of looking at the city view screen.

ukrneal
Nov 27, 2002, 03:11 AM
Bamspeedy, thanks for the clarification.

On a commentary, I wonder why they changed how pollution is counted from civII to civIII. In civ II it was counted by the triangle thingies, but now is counted by actual polluted tiles. It seems more logical how it was done in civII. The more I think about it, the more I think they should combine both. Anyway, a minor point.

Great job!

Darkness
Nov 27, 2002, 06:50 AM
Very nice!:goodjob:

Gramphos
Dec 23, 2002, 02:51 PM
Are yuo sure that specialists not always count as content (as they do in the scoring)?

Bamspeedy
Dec 23, 2002, 06:22 PM
You are correct, Gramphos, I will correct that. I just did a test by building directly on top of a luxury, and turned that 1 happy person into a specialist and I had 50% approval rating (same as if I had 1 content person).

Now figure out the annual income for me ;).

DaveMcW
Dec 23, 2002, 07:51 PM
Annual Income: The number of connected strategic/luxury resource types in your territory. The minimum value is 1 and you get a +1 bonus for your first trade route with another civ.

Bamspeedy
Dec 23, 2002, 08:54 PM
Thanks Dave!

I just looked at one of my games, and that does look to be right. I have 8 strategics (all of them), 2 different luxuries and a trade route to other civs for 11 and that matches the 11 in the demographics screen. I will edit the first post.

Lynx
Dec 27, 2002, 03:15 AM
any one ever have 99% literacy?

DiamondzAndGunz
Dec 27, 2002, 03:18 AM
any one ever have 99% literacy?

Yeah, actually, twice I think. Most recently, it's in my OCC. Having once city, it's easy to have 99% literacy ;)
The other time, I was playing the peaceful builder type. Had like every single improvement in every city. Won a Diplomatic Victory. Yay.

Lynx
Dec 27, 2002, 03:47 AM
its really hard to do, but i did it in a diety game where i had only around 15 cities. it was a crappy game, but because i kept enduring war after war holding off loads of offensives, i got a high score.

Marx
Dec 28, 2002, 07:21 PM
Wow I`ve been thinking about this but somethings don`t came up in my mind (Y)

hbdragon88
Jan 01, 2003, 07:52 PM
It's easy to have 99% literacy. Well, at least on chieftain that is. Build library university reserach lab in every city and I think that does the trick.

Hygro
Jan 19, 2003, 06:01 PM
Or just have a research lab in every city, as that works just as well. (Great Wonder: The Internet).

Plexus
Jan 20, 2003, 01:17 AM
Thanks for all that, Bam. :goodjob:

Jakooh
Jan 22, 2003, 07:09 PM
great work bam I spent lots of time trying to find out all that info on the web in the book and all over but thx to you the search has ended.. Oh one thing to add if you rush city production the added sheilds are also added to your productivity.... thought i might add that just in case cause ya never know.

Curufinwe
Feb 12, 2003, 08:37 PM
Originally posted by satchel
Bamspeedy, those are really interesting. Thanks for all your great detective work. You might consider posting these in the general discussions forum, or at least getting a link to them put in the FAQ. Really, nice job.

Folks will undoubtedly now commence critiques (not of you, but of the formulas). Here's one: family size confused a lot of people because if you have only 1 child per family, your population will shrink, not grow (neglecting immigration). So, the formula should really start at replacement rate which is a little more than 2 per family (one for each parent, plus extra to replace those who don't have children) and add to that the one child per two surplus foods in a city!

But of course, it doesn't matter, because these demographic numbers are just there for a little goofy post-game entertainment. :crazyeye:

Actually I believe you're mistaken. I child per family is perfectly plausibe and still growth is possible. If you havea long enough life expectancy than when one child grows up, you get another one. So saying 16 years you could have quite a few children.

Gainy
Mar 20, 2003, 11:09 AM
Bamspeedy ur thread is great, but i disagree with one thing.

The approval rating thing - i though that was what all of the other civ's thought of you.

Am i correct? (im probably wrong :p)

Bamspeedy
Mar 20, 2003, 11:14 AM
The approval rating is what your citizens think of you. What the AI thinks of you would be attitude, and each civ would have a different attitude ranking towards you. Try increasing or decreasing your luxury rate and you will see your approval rating increase/decrease.

Gainy
Mar 20, 2003, 03:14 PM
ok, i'll take your word for it :p

satchel
Mar 20, 2003, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by curufinwe


Actually I believe you're mistaken. I child per family is perfectly plausibe and still growth is possible. If you havea long enough life expectancy than when one child grows up, you get another one. So saying 16 years you could have quite a few children.

Wow, I wrote that post a long time ago - never thought anyone would find it and respond.

Anyhow, I think you are mistaken - it takes two parents to create a child. So the replacement rate, regardless of mortality, cannot possibly be fewer than 2 children per couple (and must be more if some individuals do not produce offspring). If the individuals in your population have a finite life span, then in the long term (for times long compared to an individual lifetime) a population producing fewer than two children per couple will dwindle, even if in the short term (times short compared to an individual lifetime) there is growth.

Look at it with a concrete example. Suppose you have an initial population of 8, with a lifetime of 100 years per individual. Further suppose that every person has one child, at the age of twenty-five.

year 0: population = 8 (A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H)

year 25: population = 12 (A,B, and their child a; C,D, and their
child c; E, F, e; and G, H, g)

year 50: population = 14 (your original A-H, plus a, c, and their child x, and e, g and their child y)

year 75: population = 15 (A-H, a,c,e,g, and x and y and their child z)

year 100: now you start to see the dwindling. z has no one of her generation to mate with, and A-H all die. your population is down to 7 and will only shrink further.

year 125: a, c, e, and g die - only x, y, and z are left. You get the point.


Now consider the same idealized population, only suppose they have children at replacement rate - 2 per couple, if we assume every individual produces offspring. Now you will see that the population can sustain.

year 0: A-H are born.
year 25: A-H produce 8 more children (two per couple), a-h; population = 16
year 50: a-h produce 8 more children, a'-h'; population = 24
year 75: a'-h' produce 8 more children, a"-h"; population = 32
year 100: A-H die, but a"-h" produce 8 more children, a'''-h''' to replace them, so population holds steady at 32
year 1225: a'-h' die, but a'''-h''' produce 8 more children to replace them, so population holds steady at 32 again ... you get the picture.

These are idealized populations, obviously, but hopefully it makes clear why you need at least two children per family in order to sustain a population (absent immigration), and more than that for growth.

Aonghus
Mar 22, 2003, 10:29 AM
I agree with u satchell. Remeber though that the AverageAverage includes those who produce no offspring (on account of ugliness or other) and those who have 22 children. The average does need to be greater than 2 like u said, but remember the psycho hicks with 4 wives and 30 children.

Also, why dont they just tell you the formulas in the civilopedia or something instead of you having to figure it out on ur own?!

Hygro
Mar 22, 2003, 05:08 PM
in this world today, with better medical this and that, the average children must be 2.1 per parent, which many european countries are not achieving.

IceCreamEmperor
Mar 22, 2003, 11:23 PM
The statistic I've seen most often is that the national birth rate (presumably in a 'first world' nation) must be 2.2 children per family in order to maintain the current population. As has been pointed out, this would be one child per parent + .2 to account for accidental death, etc. It's unclear how these statistics model things like single-parent families and other non-nuclear family types, which are becoming increasingly common. I guess it might just be 2.2 children per 2 people.

A lot of first world countries are currently below this rate, but some continue to grow anyways -- for example, in Canada I think the average birth rate was down to 1.8 a few years ago, but due to a lot of immigration the national population continues to rise.

Hygro
Mar 22, 2003, 11:49 PM
IIRC Italy is like 1.2 per family or someting like that...

Aonghus
Mar 23, 2003, 12:15 AM
Those italians and their Birth Controll.

kittenOFchaos
Apr 21, 2003, 11:47 AM
Originally posted by Bamspeedy
.
Family Size: The average amount of excess food that each city is producing/2. If you have 1 city that is producing 4 extra food, that 4 food would feed 2 people, so your family size would be 2 children. Minimum is 1, hard to say exactly what the max would be. In most cases you won't see this above 2, maybe 3 or 4 if all your cities are extremely rich in food, experiencing a very fast growth period or just put down a alot of railroads on irrigated tiles.


I'd love to see some screenies from real games showing the family size above 1. I can't remember EVER seeing this to be the case and I've had some VERY rapidly growing civilizations in my time as regarding population which I always go to some lengths to boost.

The Last Conformist
Apr 27, 2003, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Bamspeedy
Life expectancy: % of your citizens who live in a city with a granary, aqueduct, AND hospital. Minimum is 20, maximum is 99.


This can't be right - I'm sure I've seen Life Expectancies above 20 years well before Sanitation.

Bamspeedy
Apr 27, 2003, 07:11 PM
Well, each improvement counts as 33%. I probably worded that confusingly. If every city had ony a granary, you would have a life expectancy of 33, because every city has 1/3 of the improvements. If every city had a granary (pyramids) and half your cities had an aqueduct (I'm not sure if being on a river counts as a free aqueduct in this statistic), then you would have a life expectancy of 49.5 (33+16.5).

The life expectancy is the % that each city has, averaged out. So, some cities may be at 33%, some at 100%, some at 0%, etc., so you'd have to average all the percentages out.

The same thing applies to literacy rate, so this can be misleading. You could be a science powerhouse (you have science buildings in all your 'core' cities), but if you have alot of high-corrupt cities with no library and/or university in them, then you will have a low literacy rate.

Hygro
Apr 27, 2003, 11:55 PM
Bamspeedy, I've seen life expectancy above 120. I think its because I had one city, and all it contained was cure for cancer and longevity.

The Last Conformist
Apr 28, 2003, 03:13 PM
Thanks for the Life Expectancy clarification, Bamspeedy.

a4phantom
Feb 17, 2004, 10:31 AM
How do you check the demo screen midgame?

anarres
Feb 17, 2004, 10:47 AM
F11. :)

a4phantom
Feb 20, 2004, 09:55 PM
Cheers mate.

a4phantom
Feb 20, 2004, 10:00 PM
Is there anything to stop you from jacking Luxeries up to 100% before launching the spaceship? Call it a "national year of celebration".

anarres
Feb 21, 2004, 06:39 AM
No, but it won't get you much in the way of points.

Each turn your points are added to your total for the whole game, then divided by the number of turns.

Of course, your people will be happy and will celebrate if you set lux to 100%, so I say let them party! :cool:

a4phantom
Feb 21, 2004, 02:19 PM
Friends, Ottomans, countrymen, our spaceship is about to launch . . . let's party like it's 1499!

Oh well it'll at least help the ending demographics.

Pfeffersack
Jul 17, 2004, 05:48 AM
The demographic screen also includes a ranking of the worlds top cities...does anyone how they are exactly choosen? My theorie is it has to do with wonders and with population.The impact of wonders seems to be greater, but it is just there number or there culture...?

Gainy
Jul 17, 2004, 07:18 AM
It's primarily culture. If two cities have the same culture, then it is population. I don't know if there's any lower factors, but i'll just take a guess and they there aren't :)

Thangorodrim
Aug 18, 2004, 12:04 PM
I don't think anyone would, unless they had all mostly uncorupted cites that libraries, universities, and research labs were worth their upkeep in