I've put together a brief message of greetings to Team Quatronia, and would like your opinions. My intent is to offer them Open Borders immediately upon sending this message:

Hail and well met!

The Sirian people extend warmest greetings to the peoples of Quatronia. Our exploration vessel Voyager spotted a vessel of the Quatronian empire, the Rio Grande, in the eastern reaches of the known world, and hurried the news to our high council. The entire Sirian nation celebrated the news of our meeting. Truly the stars shine brightly upon us!

We hope our greeting finds the Quatronian empire doing well. Our friends the AMAZON, who reside to the north of Rio Grande’s current location, have impressed us with stories of the wonders of Quatronia and the just and fair Quatronian people. We therefore offer any Quatronia vessels safe harbor within our open Sirian borders, and their crews the hospitality of the Sirian people.

We are currently organizing our high council to send a more formal greeting, for we feel we have much to discuss, and we hope to bring our two great nations closer together. Please feel free to send all diplomatic correspondence to sirius.mtdg@gmail.com. I will be serving, at least temporarily, as the diplomatic liaison between our great empires. We look forward to hearing from you.

Respectfully yours,

Trystero


Edit: Since we want to include Quatronia in our trade Alliance with AMAZON, I sent this message off quickly. Sorry if this seems presumptuous of me, but after reading over the Merlot and AMAZON diplomacy discussions I was convinced that was there was nothing particularly controversial in the correspondence. I basically said hello, told them AMAZON is to the north of their WB (they'll find this our for themselves shortly, and they are already communicating with AMAZON), and offered open borders, which has little real effect at this point and we've offer to Merlot. As Grant mentioned with the Merlot diplomacy, I thought a quicker initial correspondence would make a better impression.

Great, looks good to me. I agree with everything you've said (EDIT - both in the message itself and the post that is).

Subscription post.

For what it's worth, you can subscribe without posting, in the "Thread Tools" menu. Not that I care which way you do it, just pointing it out. My post before was partly motivated by wanting to get this onto my subscribed list too if I'm to be perfectly honest :)

Awesome. I'm glad we've finally met them, hopefully we'll be able to get direct word about the status of our tech alliance. I'm a bit surprised that we haven't heard anything final yet.

I just noticed and posted a new message from AMAZON in our team mail account. They indicate Quatronia have agreed to join the ETTA, and are trying to convince CDZ (who have IW) to join.

We have received a reply from Quatronia:

Dear Trystero:

Our people are very glad to have finally met yours. We can finally communicate directly with our allies in the ETTT. The Amazon have also told us of the exploits of the Sirian people, particularly how you researched alphabet before we even started on it. Sirius is truly the brightest nation of all.

Our nation meeting yours has been a milestone in our exploratory journeys; we have now made contact with all civilizations. We have explored extensively and are happy to answer any questions you might have about other teams.

Our island possesses silver, wheat and spices in abundance, we are curious as to the resources you possess that we might be able to trade in the future.

In regards to the development of the ETTT, we have just finished researching archery and would like to trade it to you for mathematics as per the ETTT so we can start on calendar. As you may or may not know, we have offered CDZ, who lie south of Merlot and east of us, membership into the treaty. We are glad to report that they have accepted. They will bring iron working with them.

We are happy to accept your offer of open borders and to reciprocate the offer. We have another workboat, the Ganges, whose explorers were disappointed they did not get to be the first to meet your nation, as they are within sight of your borders.

On a completely different topic, as an amateur astronomer, I am looking forward to seeing what you decide to name your cities.

Cordially yours,
CharlemagneXLII

As AMAZON informed us, they have signed on to the ETTT and have brought CDZ into it as well. They have accepted Open Borders and offered us Archery. I will offer them, and AMAZON Mathematics in game per the terms of the ETTT. We should confirm with AMAZON that CDZ have agreed to the terms of the ETTT and offer them techs as well.

Would anyone like to be the CDZ diplomat? I can do it if no else is willing, but would prefer to have someone else handle this. I can put together a brief greeting message in the meantime. I will do so and post it shortly.

Great.

So, it appears that everyone in the ETTT has now made contact. Should we consider something of a group discussion on what everyone should be researching?

Would anyone like to be the CDZ diplomat? I can do it if no else is willing, but would prefer to have someone else handle this. I can put together a brief greeting message in the meantime. I will do so and post it shortly.

I'll raise the question in the diplomats thread. There's worse things than having the same person communicating with Quatronia and CDZ, as we have a similar relationship with them, but you are doing a lot already and I don't want you to get burned out.

I wanted as much to give others a chance to participate, if they so choose, as to spread the work around. Diplomacy with minor trading partners shouldn't be too much work. I can do both CDZ and Quatronia, if that's easiest. You have the most involved diplomacy job at this point.

I have composed a reply to the Quatronians:

Dear CharlemagneXLII ,

Thank you for your response to our initial greeting. We learned from The Amazon, shortly after we dispatched our messenger, that you had agreed to the terms of the ETTT. We are most pleased that our great nations will be brought closer together through trade, and will be able to advance more rapidly through a more guided use of our research efforts.

We also thank you for your offer to share the knowledge you have gained through exploration, and that of your resources. We have surmised that each nation on our world was founded on an island between the arms of a great star-shaped continent. Furthermore, we have guessed that the creator bestowed upon each great nation resources unique to its homeland. No doubt this was with the hope that all of the creator’s peoples would work together to become great. Our island contains gold, silk, and fish. We’ve noted that other resources, such as clams, appeared to be distributed symmetrically around the star. This is yet another example of the creator’s grand design.

We have also discovered that although we may venture off our home island, and we may exchange knowledge with you, we are unable to trade resources until we master the use of the stars to navigate.

With regards to the ETTT itself: We will gladly and freely provide you with the technology you request, and have already offered you Mathematics in-game. We feel it best that these exchanges be made as gifts rather than requests or trades, so that the identity of the trading partners will not be completely obvious to those outside our alliance. We realize this is somewhat complicated and of dubious effectiveness, but would rather rely on discretion in these matters. Regardless, we are extremely grateful for your offer of Archery, and look forward to receiving this knowledge from you. We feel that we should shortly convene a council of the ETTT members so that we can best organize our research efforts. Nevertheless, we agree that for the present researching Calendar is a worthwhile endeavor. Our efforts our currently focused on establishing a Currency.

We were also extremely pleased to hear that you have managed to bring CDZ into our alliance. We have just encountered one of their vessels, and have dispatched an envoy to greet them. Once we have established diplomatic ties with them, we will begin a technology exchange program.

Finally, I am happy to announce that our high council has formally installed me as our diplomatic envoy to the Quatronian people. I look forward to long, fruitful alliance between our great nations. We were also glad to hear of your interest in the stars and hope in the future we may invite you to our Sirian observatories to gaze upon our namesake.

With warmest regards,

Trystero, Sirian Diplomat

Does this look OK to everyone? Sorry to barrage you with a bunch of diplomacy, but I feel it's best to get these things settled quickly.

Seems fine to me.

We have also discovered that although we may venture off our home island, and we may exchange knowledge with you, we are unable to trade resources until we master the use of the stars to navigate.

Or until someone decides to move their capital. It's certainly tempting, as being the ones to move means you can trade with everyone.

Still, we'd likely get more than most out of leaving our beaurocratic capital where it is, and maybe with the ridiculous tech rate we'll have (particularly with this 4 team alliance) we might get to astronomy before we'd get around to moving the capital anyway.

In either case I'm not particularly suggesting you change what you've written, just babbling as I usually do. What you've written looks good to me (both this bit and the rest of it).

I sent off this reply. Thanks for the feedback Irgy and Azzaman.

A new message received from Quatronia:

Dear Trystero:

Thank you for your speedy reply, and I apologize if our replies are not quite as speedy as yours.

In regards to the lack of trade before astronomy, our team has come to the same conclusion as yours.

We will look to gift technology from now on, it is more efficient that way. We have received IW from CDZ, and gave them about 6 technologies in return. They are no doubt quite pleased to be in the alliance. Iron working will be on its way to you shortly, if it hasn't reached you by the time this message does.

We have discovered iron in the middle of our island, and have guessed that you will soon make the same discovery on your island.

Now, to some unpleasant business. Our neighbours to the northwest, the Mavericks, have been hounding us with tech trade offers. If you recall, they have been left out of the ETTT. At first they offered us monotheism for techs totaling twice the worth of monotheism, then they offered monotheism for everything we have. In a bizarre reversal, they then offered monotheism for animal husbandry, and we politely declined the offer, having received mono from Amazon. They have now offered to trade Metal Casting, but we have come to the agreement that it is not worth going outside of the ETTT to research, and will not be requesting permission to do so.

CDZ is currently researching Metal Casting, but in the meantime, we are a bit concerned about any potential Maverick aggression from triremes once they realize they are being left behind; if you get in trouble with any triremes let us know and we will do what we can to help.

We also plan to prevent Merlot, the other team left out, from making contact with Mavericks, since our cultural borders might stop their workboat. If that doesn't, our galley will. Just be aware that they have a galley north of their homeland, near Amazon.

Sincerely,
CharlemagneXLII

Should we consider talking with the Amazons to extend the ASP?

Should we consider talking with the Amazons to extend the ASP?

What do you mean, extend the ASP?

You know, The ASP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9316704#post9316704). Not shure if that was what you wore asking.

You know, The ASP (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9316704#post9316704). Not shure if that was what you wore asking.

I'm asking about the extending part. Do you mean adding Quatronia to it?

No. I was wondering if we are considering being drawn to a skirmish for someone that doesn't even have a military agreement with us.

Q appears to be pulling us into a military compromise with Mavericks and Merlot as scapegoats.

If the four ETTT nations can prevent the other two from meeting, they can't collaborate, and we're even better off. If that means war, we should certainly consider it.

No, a trade/tech agreement is one thing. Being drawn to war just to prevent the enconter of two teams is another.
And yes, we should consider all the possibilities, but that's mainly to minimize the surprise factor.

BTW, can anyone check our power rank from the demographics screen?

EDIT: The reason for their request might be fear.

We can't see Merlot on it until next turn. We haven't put any points into CDZ or Quatrona.

No, a trade/tech agreement is one thing. Being drawn to war just to prevent the enconter of two teams is another.
And yes, we should consider all the possibilities, but that's mainly to minimize the surprise factor.

One of the reasons for forming the 4-way tech trading alliance was that we use our tech advantage against the other two teams. We want to prevent them from communicating, since they will be unable to trade their techs and will be at a distinct disadvantage. Eliminating our immediate neighbor to the south is something we want to start working toward. Not that this isn't without risks.

No, a trade/tech agreement is one thing. Being drawn to war just to prevent the enconter of two teams is another.
And yes, we should consider all the possibilities, but that's mainly to minimize the surprise factor.

BTW, can anyone check our power rank from the demographics screen?

EDIT: The reason for their request might be fear.

No team has a significantly high power level that fear would drive any decision.

This may be a good opportunity to broach the subject of a military alliance. In keeping with our larger strategy discussion maybe we should get back to Quantonia about solidifying some military agreement like we have with Amazon. Planning for defensive cooperation can easily lead to planning for a war of aggression.

We can't agree to anything inconsistent with the ASP though, and I suspect they may have a similar problem relative to whatever agreement they have with CDZ.

I don't think we want to do more than commit to co-operation against Mavericks. Maybe it's worth spelling that out a bit more solidly though.

The more we can get Quatronia to agitate Mavericks the better really, we want Mavericks to concentrate their counter-attacks Quatronia's way as much as possible, which means doing our best to look like the good guys (relatively) when hostilities start.

Here's a draft of a brief letter to Quatronia:

Dear CharlemagneXLII,

We thank you for your offer of Iron Working, we look forward to receiving it, and hope we too have an accessible source of iron. We should have Currency in a few turns, and will share that with you as soon as possible.

We also thank you for the warning about the Mavericks triremes. We should have a city established that we could use to close our borders to Merlot shortly. If it arrives before then, we should have a galley in position to stop the work boat. We would have much more trouble with a Maverick trireme at this point, obviously. We are currently attempting to settle the arm of the great star closest to Mavericks so as to deny them access to strategic resources. We are unsure of how effective this will be if they also have iron on their home island. Regardless, since Mavericks lie between our empires, we agree that we should coordinate our actions against them to our mutual benefit.

We will keep you apprised of further developments.

Sincerely,

Trystero

*cough*IronWorking*cough* :)

I am making a fairly strong military commitment to stop Merlot and Mavericks from communicating, so any comments welcome.

Edit: Perhaps we should consult with The AMAZONS about the Maverick/Merlot blockade.

I think the message is very good. And I agree we should communicate with our allies. Maybe we can alert AMAZON to the danger that M&M pose to our plans and the need for firm decisive action against the foreign cur...or something like that.

Just to make this perfectly clear, in the draft above we agreeing to:

1. help Quatronia blockade Mavericks
2. potentially sink a Merlot work boat if required

We need to be sure we want to do this, before we send the response.

Just make this perfectly clear, in the draft above we agreeing to:

1. help Quatronia blockade Mavericks
2. potentially sink a Merlot work boat if required

We need to be sure we want to do this, before we send the response.

So long as we can keep the barb situation under control I'm for it. I haven't made my report but Pallas is fortified against a Bard right now. I'll update later today.

Why would we not want to prevent them from meeting? In the long run this is much better for us.

OK - I have 3 yeas and no dissenting opinions. If I don't hear anything else, I'll send this off in the morning (in 10-12 hours).

Ah, I thought you'd already sent it. If you haven't yet, I was going to suggest making the hint on IW a little more explicit.

I think the problem is just that every team assumes that another one is going to actually do the transfer.

So, I'd suggest changing:
"we look forward to receiving it"
->
"we look forward to receiving it from you"

That's enough of a consensus for me. I made the change Irgy suggested and sent the message.

We received a new message from Quatronia:

Dear Trystero:

Just a brief note to point out that it is a Merlot galley that could be headed your way. It is currently in Merlot waters, probably being used for transportation, but could go try to make contact after we sink their workboat. We just want to make sure you know what you're dealing with, though we hope this doesn't change anything in our plan to prevent contact between Merlot and the Mavericks.

Sincerely,
Ambassador CharlemagneXLII
Team Quatronia

No receipt of IW, yet. If we don't receive it this turn, I'll make an explicit request for it when we distribute Currency next turn.

I'm really not confortable with this actions. This is the kind of thing that we didn't started, are being pulled into(naively, IMO) and most likely will blow up on our faces.

Four against two in a tech race is still a shure win. I don't see any reason for enhancing the margin.

I wouldn't distribute Currency to them at all (nor to CDZ) until we receive IW, it's starting to get a bit ridiculous. Ideally they'll then start complaining that they haven't got Currency, and we can point out what hypocrites they are. We should probably still give it to Amazon, but let them know not to trade it on.

I'm really not confortable with this actions. This is the kind of thing that we didn't started, are being pulled into(naively, IMO) and most likely will blow up on our faces.

Four against two in a tech race is still a shure win. I don't see any reason for enhancing the margin.

Sorry, I don't understand this comment at all. What are we being pulled into? What are you referring to that's enhancing the margin?

I believe the Amazon also have IW right? It may be a case that they've forgotten that we don't have IW and haven't checked their trade screens lately to notice. It seems IW was distributed in a confusing way, so I'm sure it could have slipped through the cracks. That Quatronia hasn't sent us the tech after a gentle reminder is odd. I think the best solution would be a message to all 3 of our tech trading allies, reminding them that we still haven't recieved IW and directly requesting that the next team to log in offer it to us. We're at the point where we shouldn't be indirect in our requests, but we shouldn't be hostile just yet.

Sorry, I don't understand this comment at all. What are we being pulled into? What are you referring to that's enhancing the margin?
Quatronia is already mentioning sunking Merlot's fishing boat. That's war. And if we're headed to closing boarders with Merlot then we'll be in it too.

In a 4 against 2 tech race, the winning group will most definitly be the one with the most number of members(4). So in 4 against 1 against 1 will have a insignificant diferent result for the group with the most members(4). I think there isn't much point in keeping Mavs and Merlot to meet.

EDIT: I agree with Grant.

There's no point blocking a galley or trireme from trying to go through us (beyond not opening borders).

But if we see a workboat, we should definitely block it.

Alltriia all we have to do to stop them is not open borders with them. If they are willing to threaten war over it then we'll have to debate how strong our position is and if we could hold them off.

That said it is absolutely worth preventing contact between our two enemies. Yes we'll still have an advantage if they do meet, but we aren't in the business of going easy on our opponents. We want to win quickly and easily with as little damage to ourselves as possible so that we're more able to fight in the next round. If we force Merlot and the Mavericks to duplicate techs then we'll have a larger tech advantage over them, and that will make our military much more effective against them.

Right now it looks like we'll be able to get astronomy quickly, but riflemen will take some time. The bigger the tech advantage we have the more likely it will be that an army of macemen will be sufficient to defeat our enemies.

Grant, I understand where you're getting at, but I ment to minimize risky chances too. If after our cordial correspondence with Merlot we would close borders it only could ment one thing.

4 vs. 2 tech alliance is a sure win, but there is really little reason to assume that the tech alliance is strong enough to last until M&M are gone. At this point 2 of our "allies" are little more than acquaintances really.

Grant, I understand where you're getting at, but I ment to minimize risky chances too. If after our cordial correspondence with Merlot we would close borders it only could ment one thing.

You have to take some risks to win.

OK, since the majority is for it, then let's do it, but I still think it is a bad idea.

You have to take some risks to win.
But there are risks and there are risks. Diferent people decide on diferent degrees of risk when given the same problem.

This is what I'm thinking of sending to all three other members of the ETTT. Posting it in all three diplo threads, sorry for the identical-post-spam.
Greetings fellow ETTT members.

Now that we have all finally met each other, it seems sensible to co-ordinate our technology plans into the future.

Our current understanding is:
Sirius: Code of Laws
Amazon: ?
Quatronia: ?
CDZ: Metal Casting

There are many benefits to getting Astronomy on this map, so it is our suggestion to tech towards it as quickly as possible. This means there should always be one team should be researching one of:
Metal Casting->Machinery->Optics->Astronomy. Another team can get the cheaper techs of Compass and Calendar in parallel (both fairly beneficial techs on their own). It also seems wise to pursue Civil Service soon for the bonus Beaurocracy can provide to all of our research rates.

In principle it shouldn't matter which team researches which techs, if we're all sharing them. Although it may be wise for a team with a faster research rate to look after the Astronomy beeline, and the techs which will speed up everyone's research.

What other technologies do people think are important?


One final issue; Our understanding is that it is best to transfer techs as gifts rather than damnds or trades, to avoid making it clear who is trading based on who is logged in when the teams' scores increase. It should therefore be the researching team's responsibility to push out the techs as they discover them. Now that all members have made contact this should not be a problem in the future.

We have something of an ongoing problem with Iron Working however, as it seems every team has decided another team is responsible for sending it to us. The root cause is that the ETTT was still being expanded, and we had not made contact with CDZ, when Iron Working was discovered. It would be nice if the next team to log on would kindly send that to us.

Best regards,
Irgy, on behalf of team Sirius

We received a response to Irgy's message:

Greetings Irgy of Sirius,

The Continuum is always pleased to hear from our partners from across the world.
The Q have been discussing similar things and were drafting up an email even before we received word from our neighbors.

In regards to our technology paths we also wanted to align plans for the near to long term. We are indeed researching Calendar as you so rightly acknowledge. Our scientists anticipate we will understand it secrets it 2 turns. Depending on what or treaty partners think our short term plan was to then head for Compass as it aligns with the will of our people. It may therefore be reasonable for us to also finish off that tech path by researching Optics.

Looking forward to hearing the thoughts of our other Tech partners,
Sincerely,
CharlemagneXLII

Here is a draft of a brief message to send to Quatronia regarding the Maverick's work boat. Anything with should change or also include?

Dear CharlemagneXLII,

This is just a brief note to keep you abreast of recent developments. We noticed your declaration of war against Merlot, and surmise that you sank one of their work boats. We are unsure why they declared against The Amazon.

We have made contact with Mavericks this turn. Their work boat encountered a galley of ours near our cultural borders. Unfortunately, our cultural borders won’t pop in time to prevent them from passing. Our galley can sink the work boat at anytime, and we want to do so, however we are concerned because they offered us Machinery in trade in 2 turns, suggesting they could have crossbows soon if they hook up iron (We don't think they have Iron Working yet). Also they informed us that a trireme was following close behind the work boat. The combination of triremes and crossbows could cause problems for us. We appreciate any intelligence you could provide that would aid our planning.

Thanks,

Trystero

Edit: updated message with latest info.

I updated the message and sent this to Quatronia via PM to their diplomat and turnplayer:

Dear CharlemagneXLII and Quatronian friends

This is just a brief note to keep you abreast of recent developments. We noticed your declaration of war against Merlot, and surmise that you sank one of their work boats. Apparently a Merlot warrior attacked the Amazons drawing them into the conflict.

We have made contact with Mavericks this turn. Their work boat encountered a galley of ours near our cultural borders. Unfortunately, our cultural borders won’t pop in time to prevent them from passing. We have a galley in position to sink the work boat, however we are concerned because they informed us that a trireme was following close behind the work boat. Even if we sank the work boat, we could not stop the trireme.

Also, they offered us Machinery in trade in 2 turns, suggesting they could have crossbows soon if they hook up iron (We don't think they have Iron Working yet). The combination of triremes and crossbows could cause problems for us. We are therefore inclined to let the work boat pass to buy us time, but we wanted to consult with you first. We have warned Amazon of its approach with the hope that they could prepare to stop it.

We would appreciate your thoughts on these developments

Thanks,

Trystero, Sirian diplomat

Their response:

Dear Trystero:

We have indeed sunk a Merlot workboat. Their attack on Amazon indicates that they may be aware of our alliance.

We suggest you do not worry about the Maverick boat, and leave it to Amazon if they are able to deal with it. We are actually letting a Maverick WB through to CDZ, where culture will stop it. This way members of the ETTT are not at war with their direct neighbours, and we do not violate the non-aggression pact we signed with Mavericks when we met them.

The Mavericks have also offered us machinery, hopefully CDZ can research it relatively soon to counter that. They've finished metal casting, so we'll be able to counter triremes soon at any rate.

We have received a new message from Quatronia to the ETTA:

To all the members of the ETTT:

To start, a tech update: Quatronia has completed research on compass and we will start on optics, once we have the required machinery. When can we expect this? We are not entirely sure what the rest of the alliance is up to techwise, so if you could give us an update that would be great.

We have been exploring the mainland quite a bit and have discovered several strategic resources. We suspect that the peninsulas are quite similar, if not exact copies of each other. On the peninsula with plains at the tip we have discovered stone, bananas, incense and copper (both us and CDZ have settled here). On the desert peninsula, between us and the Mavericks, we suspect ivory and marble. We would be interested to hear of any of your discoveries on the mainland.

We have just spotted the Maverick work boat heading back the way it came after being turned back by CDZ, so good work there guys, denying contact between Merlot and Mavericks will maintain a bigger advantage for the alliance. Have Sirius and Amazon seen any exploring boats from those two?

If Amazon is ready, Quatronia would like to enter a peace agreement with Merlot, seeing as we are not going to do anything to each other, and the double move rule has become a bit of a hassle.

Cheers, from sunny Quatronia.

I'll try to put together a brief reply.

A draft reply:

Fellow ETTA members,

Tech update: This seems like a good time to coordinate our activities. We anticipate completing Civil Service in 2 turns. We have not decided what technology it would be best to pursue next. Given some of the military entanglements, we were considering Feudalism.

Mavericks situation: We were contacted by Mavericks ~10 turns ago, when their work boat entered our territory. At the time, they stated it would soon be followed by a trireme. Since we had no vessel that could contend with a trireme and our borders had not expanded enough to prevent the work boat’s passage, we let it pass. However, we have since seen no sign of this other vessel. It’s possible it turned around when we let their work boat through, or that they were bluffing about its presence. Regardless, their work boat took a detour into the channel leading to the mainland’s center. It re-emerged a few turns ago, and is just now leaving our territory. We will alert you if we see a Mavericks trireme, but it looks like Amazon could halt the work boats progress by refusing to open borders.

Also, Mavericks offered to bulb Machinery with a Great Engineer if we wanted it in trade. We declined the trade (without revealing the existence of the ETTA), so they used it to rush The Pyramids.

Resources: We are currently exploring and settling the mainland arm between ourselves and Mavericks. This arm has a plains tip with stone, pigs, copper, and incense resources. Mavericks may have settled a city here as well, but we have not fully explored the area due to barb harassment. The arm between Amazon and us appears to have a desert tip with marble, bananas, horses, and ivory resources.

Trystero, on behalf of Team Sirius

Comments?

Looks good, just a few minor quibbles mostly because I like the look of my own text:

Why are we telling them all about the Pyramids situation? I don't particularly consider it a secret or anything, but I also don't see why we're bringing it up either. Note that I've already mentioned it to Amazon.

Unless they're confused, there's something odd going on with the resources. They mention bananas on the stone spoke, while we have pigs. It might be worth confirming that part. Maybe there's three different types of food placed in opposite pairs?

I'd slightly rephrase the claim that Mavericks have settled on this continent, as I'm starting to have my doubts (why can't we see their culture yet?). I'd say more specifically that they claim to have settled near copper, but we haven't seen their culture. We'd expect to be able to see it but we haven't fully explored the continent yet, or something like that.

Given their claim of a trireme and their silly bluff with the stone/marble in the TGL thread I wouldn't be that surprised if "copper city" was a complete bluff anyway.

As far as tech goes, someone should research Paper soon, but maybe wait until Theology is done.

Looks good, just a few minor quibbles mostly because I like the look of my own text:

Feel free. It was half stream of consciousness anyway. :p

Why are we telling them all about the Pyramids situation? I don't particularly consider it a secret or anything, but I also don't see why we're bringing it up either. Note that I've already mentioned it to Amazon.

Agreed. Deleted.

Unless they're confused, there's something odd going on with the resources. They mention bananas on the stone spoke, while we have pigs. It might be worth confirming that part. Maybe there's three different types of food placed in opposite pairs?

I agree, but does it matter much? The most relevant spokes to us are the adjacent ones. While i agree it's an interesting aspect of the map, I worry that it would confuse diplomacy.

I'd slightly rephrase the claim that Mavericks have settled on this continent, as I'm starting to have my doubts (why can't we see their culture yet?). I'd say more specifically that they claim to have settled near copper, but we haven't seen their culture. We'd expect to be able to see it but we haven't fully explored the continent yet, or something like that.

Given their claim of a trireme and their silly bluff with the stone/marble in the TGL thread I wouldn't be that surprised if "copper city" was a complete bluff anyway.

OK, I'll alter it accordingly.

As far as tech goes, someone should research Paper soon, but maybe wait until Theology is done.

What about Machinery? Is that what CDZ is working on? Someone who doesn't have a religion (CDZ?) should probably research Philosophy.

Revised per Irgy's recommendations:

Fellow ETTA members,

Tech update: This seems like a good time to coordinate our activities. We anticipate completing Civil Service in 2 turns. We have not decided what technology it would be best to pursue next. Given some of the military entanglements, we were considering Feudalism, but Paper is also an option once Theology is complete.

Mavericks situation: We were contacted by Mavericks ~10 turns ago, when their work boat entered our territory. At the time, they stated it would soon be followed by a trireme. Since we had no vessel that could contend with a trireme and our borders had not expanded enough to prevent the work boat’s passage, we let it pass. However, we have since seen no sign of this other vessel. It’s possible it turned around when we let their work boat through, or that they were bluffing about its presence. Regardless, their work boat took a detour into the channel leading to the mainland’s center. It re-emerged a few turns ago, and is just now leaving our territory. We will alert you if we see a Mavericks trireme, but it looks like Amazon could halt the work boats progress by refusing to open borders.

Resources: We are currently exploring and settling the mainland arm between ourselves and Mavericks. This arm has a plains tip with stone, pigs, copper, and incense resources. Mavericks may have settled a city here as well, as they claim to have settled near copper, but we haven't seen their cultural borders. We'd expect to be able to see them but we haven't fully explored the continent yet. The arm between Amazon and us appears to have a desert tip with marble, bananas, horses, and ivory resources.

Trystero, on behalf of Team Sirius

We're down to 1 turn on CS otherwise :goodjob:

OK - I revised the turns until CS, and sent it out.

New message via PM from Quatronia:

Greetings,

Not sure if you offered Civil Service to us yet. We have a thing where if someone who isn't our turn player logs in and gets a diplo offer they just exit out. So that may have happened if you sent an offer to us back when you accepted Compass from us.

Anyways, I sent a request for CS. If you want to avoid the obvious indicator that you are the ones gifting it you can refuse and then make your own offer to gift. We are hoping to switch civics this turn so if you could get it to us before the turn roll that would be greatly appreciated.

Updates:

*We are still waiting for CDZ to finish Machinery so we can start Optics. We are going 100% on Horseback Riding in the meantime now while we wait. When Machinery becomes available we will switch to Optics and then finish HBR off later.

*Merlot has a holkan on the petal/peninsula between you and the Mavericks. It is located on the south shore in the first jungle tile W of the desert hub. I'm guessing they will make contact with Mav culture in around 6 turns.

Sincerely,

-Cav Scout

I've already offered them CS, so I will sort this out shortly. I'll comment on the rest after I run some errands.

Merlot has a holkan on the petal/peninsula between you and the Mavericks. It is located on the south shore in the first jungle tile W of the desert hub. I'm guessing they will make contact with Mav culture in around 6 turns.

This is a big issue. I'm not sure what we can do about it though...

YEah I don't know if the Axemen would even make it.

An update from Quatronia via PM:

Update: The holkan advanced 1 tile W last turn. And we just discovered a Mav warrior 2 tiles W of the holkan on the other side of the channel. So if the holkan moves W or the warrior moves E this turn (before the other guys moves inland) they will have contact. Oh well.

Also, we just spotted a Mav chariot in the vicinity as well (two jungle tiles for them to traverse before they are in the desert hub).

Quatronia would like to buy your workboat for 40 gold. Is Sirius interested in selling it? (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9537570&postcount=14)
I vote no, because 40 is not enough and we need exploring the map.

I disagree, we're going to have paper soon and we'll get maps of the region that voyager would explore from our allies. By the time Voyager reaches the Mavericks they may well be in the mood to sink it, so we may loose it anyway. I think this is a good deal.

Can we get 100 gold for it?

I disagree, we're going to have paper soon and we'll get maps of the region that voyager would explore from our allies. By the time Voyager reaches the Mavericks they may well be in the mood to sink it, so we may loose it anyway. I think this is a good deal.

I'm of two minds about this: sure the cash would be good, but even if we bought maps it would nice to have more recent scouting of Mavericks. I'd also be more in favor if we used the cash toward upgrading a unit (which benefits only us) rather than research (which benefits the entire ETTA). But I don't have strong opinions either way.

My opinion is if they're willing to trade maps come Paper then yes, otherwise definately no. I don't think it matters particularly what we use the cash for. If we really want to spend cash to upgrade some units we should just do it, workboat sale or not, but I'd still rather just do research faster.

The consensus seems to be "yes", if they are willing to trade maps. I have composed a response to that effect.

Dear Quatronian friends:

We would be willing to sell you our work boat for 40 gold, if you are willing to trade maps once we complete researching Paper. Our primary interest is intelligence regarding Mavericks territory, which we have not scouted yet.

Sincerely,

Trystero, Sirian diplomat

Any objections to sending this?

Looks good but we should maybe ask for 50 at least.

40 is actually a pretty good deal in my opinion, we'd only have got 30 gold building wealth instead of the workboat, and it's basically a useless workboat at this stage of the game - it's already done its job.

Of course whether it's a good deal or not is partly beside the point, the real issue for whether to ask for 50 is whether we think we'd get 50. Although because I think it's a good deal at 40 I also don't think they'd give us 50. Not to mention I think the good will we'd miss out on is worth more than the 10gp we'd gain.

The deal is mostly about good will anyway. The transfer of gold is mostly just going to mean speeding up Paper (and whatever we get next) at the cost of slowing down Optics.

Yeah, the difference b/t 40 and 50 doesn't seem worth haggling over to me. I agree that this is as much about diplomacy as anything else.

Edit: The message has been sent. Let's see if they are willing to trade maps.

It was more on the principle of not being easy about it but if were demanding Maps to be promised it doesn't matter. I'm just speaking from experience about letting people walk all over you when you play Mr Nice too often.

What is the situation now?
The wb costs 1 :gold: every turn, i think.

Were waiting for the reply from Quatrona to see if they accept the demand for maps after Paper has been discovered for the sale of the WB for 40 gold.

Here is their reply:

That sounds great, we would be happy to trade maps. When do you anticipate getting paper?

We also feel you should know that Mavericks sent us an ultimatum, apparently our exploring warrior is scaring them, despite our open borders and non-aggression pact. We have no idea how this situation will be resolved, as the Mavericks are quite unpredictable. We'll keep you apprised of further details, but look for a Maverick DoW.

The money will be wired to your account shortly.

Sincerely,

CharlemagneXLII
Ambassador

So let's move the WB into Quatronia territory so we can gift it to them. (When the game is back up, that is. ;))

We received 40 gold from Quatronia for the work boat. I sent them a brief reply:

Dear CharlemagneXLII and friends in The Continuum,

We thank you for your cash gift, and hope you can make good use of our work boat Voyager. We anticipate completing our research of Paper in 4 turns (turn 89), and will offer you a map trade as soon as we are able.

Thanks also for the information regarding Mavericks. We have had no contact with them since we declined their trade offers. We should be encountering their culture on the land mass between our home islands shortly, however. We will likewise keep you appraised of developments on that front.

Regards,

Trystero, Sirian diplomat

In response to the ETTA technology discussion, I want to send the following message (nothing too controversial):

Dear ETTA members,

We can confirm that we are now researching Astronomy. At our present research rate, we anticipate this will take approximately 18 turns.

Regards,

Trystero, team Sirius

I thought we didn't have enough money for that yet.

Aren't we researching that now (at 0% research)? One more turn and we'll have enough cash to run the slider at 100%. So "about 18 turns" is close enough that we're not lying about it.

Ah I was just confused by that since were at 0% research right now.

We just received this message from Quatronia to the ETTA. We never received the CDZ response included in this letter, so I also attached the copy attached to Quatronia's email.

Greeting to our allies, the members of the ETTT,

Quatronia would like to thank Amazon for their efforts to solve the problems our alliance is facing, will work together with our allies to ensure our efforts remain united against our enemies. However, it appears that the integrity of the Continuum has come under question. Quatronia feels the need to clarify a number of misrepresentations in CDZ's letter, so that we can move forward.

However Quatronia decided to aggressively settle next to Spamville with the cities of Resonance and Asymptote. The usefulness of either of these cities apart from culturally crowding Spamville is marginal at best. Quatronia specifically ignored settling better land that was closer to them, clearly instigating the current situation between two teams that should be behaving as allies, by settling extremely aggressively towards one of our cities.
The Continuum disagrees with CDZ's assessment of our cities, Resonance & Asymptote. They are not aggressive settlements nor are they 'marginally useful' and only serve to crowd Spamville. Asymptote was originally known as 'Cape City' to the Continuum. It's settlement has been planned for centuries. It grants our empire with two resources within its borders. Resonance's was originally planned further south, but due to production priorities we were unable to settle it prior to Spamville and had to move it north, though it is still a fine city spot. In fact it has the highest population on the peninsula. The Continuum can provide records of these plans dating back to 1920BC (Turn 52). This is all prior to CDZ settling Spamville in 1560BC (Turn 61). We apologize if you saw these moves as aggressive, it is unfortunate that you did not send us any messages to inform us of that.


Now it is important to note that up to this point at no time had Quatronia sought to discuss the settlement of our common peninsula... So in response to their aggressive settling against Spamville we settled ereh rO, Quatronia then settled Pulsar Plateau.
Admittedly, The Continuum had not yet discussed these matters with CDZ, however we were in the process of writing a message regarding splitting the petal. It was at this point CDZ settled ereh rO. Quatronia remains shocked at this move. As you put it yourselves, ereh rO is a 'response', a retaliation to Quatronia's expansion. It's a clear encroachment on our territory as it is quite a distance from the CDZ capital. I would imagine that the citizens of ereh rO have asked at least once to join the The Continuum because when they look across the sea, they see our capital, Continuum! We believe CDZ would be similarly confused should Quatronia have settled "Or here" first. A cheap, productive city in your first-ring location, snatched up by a greedy ally? Of course this would be cause for strife.

...nor did they ever express disappointment at not having the stone. They never asked if we would be willing to come to any arrangements with regards to trading the stone to them. All of these actions which one would expect from an ally were never explored by them.
On this point The Continuum feels there is some agreement. We never once mentioned stone, nor does The Continuum require it. We aren't sure why this was included in the original- hopefully it wasn't outside speculation added in. Quatronia does not need the stone, though we would be open to perhaps borrowing it one day for Moai in a fair exchange.


It was only sometime after this that they came to us and ridiculously demanded we exchanged ereh rO for a settler they would gift us in return...
Quatronia rejects the accusation that we 'Demanded' an exchange. We offered to trade a city for a city- ereh rO for a settler. The Continuum felt it would be a fair way to resolve the situation. Surely if this was ridiculous, we would get a counteroffer? CDZ's reply was hardly friendly, more a dismissal, nor did it contain any hint of a counteroffer.


...because ereh Or was "in their sphere of influence", whilst grossly overlooking the fact that the first city they settled on the peninsula was "in CDZ's sphere of influence". This we found inadequate compensation for our city so they went ahead and settled Cygous.
Clearly our definition of 'sphere of influence' differs. Both Resonance and Asymptote are not in CDZ's sphere of influence. Cygnus clearly is, but neither our first nor our second cities.

And now there is the further matter of researching Music, which Quatronia decided to research after we announced we are doing it.
Quatronia does not agree with your judgement. We sent a message to the ETTT announcing we were researching music. Only then did CDZ come forth and state they were doing the same. The previous official message regarding research had CDZ researching Feudalism. The Continuum doesn't recall when the secrets of Feudalism were discovered.


When looking back through the event from the beginning we believe it is clear that it was never Quatronia’s intention to negotiate or find some agreement, their intention was to take whatever they could, however they could. Overall this can only be viewed as appalling behaviour towards a nation that is its ally. If a solution is to be found then it must take into account Quatronia’s role in instigating and the exacerbating the problem we have on our hands today.
Quatronia wants to find agreement and compromise. It is CDZ who decided to disregard an ally's territory and settle. It is CDZ who never announced their tech path, and only mentioned music after we did. CDZ accuses Quatronia of "crimes" that only CDZ itself has committed.

We have attached several screenshots showing the finances of all the teams over the last few turns. Could CDZ please explain the reason for their sudden (mid-turn) gold increase, and Merlot's decrease in gold?

Now that we have cleared up any misconceptions, let us get back on the path to cooperation and M&M devouring. Since actions speak louder than words, Quatronia will use the Great Artist to bulb, which will benefit the whole ETTT, and make up for lost beakers. As for the Mavericks, we will declare war on them when our non-aggression pact ends, in a couple turns. If CDZ comes under threat from them, before or after that time, we will not hesitate to come to your defense, so please let us know if you have any Maverick problems. We know they have amassed an army, we're just not sure where it is- so Amazon be on the lookout too, with your central city.

The Continuum wishes to clarify to our allies that we value the mutual agreements enshrined in the ETTT. Quatronia will always act in the best interests of her people. Let us move beyond this finger pointing and get the ETTT back on track. Let us focus on the common goal; to rid the world of both the Mavericks and Merlot. Glory to CDZ. Glory to the Amazons, Glory to Sirius.

Glory to the ETTT!

-The Continuum

On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 6:58 PM, team cdz <team.cdz@gmail.com> wrote:


To the members of the ETTT,

As everyone is aware a problem has developed on the peninsula between Quatronia and CDZ. The Amazon nation has graciously taken time to propose some solutions and we at the CDZ welcome their efforts to bring about a resolution to the current situation. However, we must stress that, barring divine intervention, any and all decisions regarding the welfare of the CDZ Kleptocracy will be made by its citizens. Thus any form, other than said divine intervention, of binding judgement by a third party will not be acceptable.

While the CDZ accept the general direction of Amazon’s proposal is a positive one we feel that the history of the matter is important to consider, as only when the situation is viewed in context will we find a long lasting solution that acceptable to everyone.

The facts of the matter are we settled two cities on the peninsula in question, Spamville and Or here before Quatronia has any cities. Both of these are on the half of the peninsula closest to our island. We had planned a third city between the two and then to move on to the other peninsula.

However Quatronia decided to aggressively settle next to Spamville with the cities of Resonance and Asymptote. The usefulness of either of these cities apart from culturally crowding Spamville is marginal at best. Quatronia specifically ignored settling better land that was closer to them, clearly instigating the current situation between two teams that should be behaving as allies, by settling extremely agressively towards one of our cities.

Now it is important to note that up to this point at no time had Quatronia sought to discuss the settlement of our common peninsula, nor did they ever express disappointment at not having the stone. They never asked if we would be willing to come to any arrangements with regards to trading the stone to them. All of these actions which one would expect from an ally were never explored by them. So in response to their aggressive settling against Spamville we settled ereh rO, Quatronia then settled Pulsar Plateau.

It was only sometime after this that they came to us and ridiculously demanded we exchanged ereh rO for a settler they would gift us in return, because ereh Or was "in their sphere of influence", whilst grossly overlooking the fact that the first city they settled on the peninsula was "in CDZ's sphere of influence". This we found inadequate compensation for our city so they went ahead and settled Cygous. And now there is the further matter of researching Music, which Quatronia decided to research after we announced we are doing it.

When looking back through the event from the beginning we believe it is clear that it was never Quatronia’s intention to negotiate or find some agreement, their intention was to take whatever they could, however they could. Overall this can only be viewed as appalling behaviour towards a nation that is its ally. If a solution is to be found then it must take into account Quatronia’s role in instigating and the exacerbating the problem we have on our hands today.


After the conclusion of this unfortunate, Quattronia-instigated incident, we hope to continue our positive contribution to the ETTT, and collectively work towards a positive conclusion of the pacification of all non-ETTT civilizations in the world.

Best regards,
The Citizens of the CDZ Kleptocracy

You will note reading the above message that Quatronia are about to declare war on Mavericks. This might explain the "gifting cities" message from Mavericks.

I checked in on the game and Quatrona got the Great Artist who was born in Continuum.

Thx , a good message (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9931593&postcount=23),

We sould ask Quat, if they can destroy the connection at south coast of the spire with their caras. If they can and 'll we can try the same at Copper. Then they can't build the archer/eles at their home isle and iron units at spire.

Can Caravals blockade? Is that what they are doing?

I 'll test it

I 've test it, so:
for destroying the connection you need a frigate or better, so Daves and my idea is nothing.

OK, so if I understand correctly, we need to discuss the following things with both Quatronia and the ETTA as a whole:

1. Straighten out whose researching what. Either finish Nationalism soon or switch ASAP to another tech to avoid overlap with Quat.

2. Encourage the ETTA to focus on research to build up a tech lead. I noticed BLubmuz suggesting Knights-Muskets-Cannons. That would be the Guilds > Gunpowder > Chemistry > Steel tech path. (Getting Guilds + Chemistry would definitely make workshops a better investment). Is that what we want to do? Should we side track to Education (Universities) if Quat wants to finish Nationalism?

3. What is the issue with stone that needs to be discussed?

We're at least half way through Nationalism, no point stopping now. I think we should get Education then and start preparing Liberalism to grab Steel. Quat can keep saving cash for a bit (like they will anyway) and get something that opens up when some of the current choice of 4 techs is ready.

Namely that they asked and got Stone back around Dec 3, they said they wanted it for "one turn to overflow into Maoi Statues". Husch pointed out recently that they still had it, I ended the deal since I figured it was well over 10 turns ago. They then asked for Stone again saying "one turn to overflow into Maoi Statues". I'm calling BS on that and wanted to see what the rest of you thought.

Also they will have Nationalism in 4 turns.

Unless we are using the stone, I think the diplomatic problems of not letting them have it for a turn are not worth it. I would give them the stone.

Well Husch suggested to get the Stone back to make Walls and then Castles for Trade routes.

If we are going to start on those, OK, keep the stone and we'll tell Quat we need it. If not, lend it to them for 1 turn and cancel the deal. Let me know what you want to do and I'll write a message.

I propose sending Quatronia the following message:

Quatronian allies:

Per your request, we have (or soon will) offered you stone in-game. We'd would like you to know that we will need it relatively soon ourselves, however, so we'd like to know how many turns you think you will need it. Our current understanding is one turn. Is that correct?

Also, we apologize, but we can't keep track of who is researching what. Our previous correspondences suggested you were researching Printing Press. We are currently researching Nationalism. We would like to suggest to the ETTA as a whole that all teams focus on research so that we can build a significant tech advantage over Mavericks/Merlot. What are your feelings about such a proposal?

Regards,

Trystero, Sirian diplomat

I propose sending Quatronia the following message:

I thought it was CDZ doing Printing Press? If I'm wrong, what are CDZ actually researching?

Whichever of them isn't getting Printing Press should get Constitution or Military Tradition once Nationalism is in (not long now, right?)

Looks good anyway though.

I thought it was CDZ doing Printing Press? If I'm wrong, what are CDZ actually researching?

According this (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9949947&postcount=24) message (over a month ago) it was PP.

Last I heard CDZ was researching Divine Right. Now, I'm not sure, but i have some recollection they said Education?

Whichever of them isn't getting Printing Press should get Constitution or Military Tradition once Nationalism is in (not long now, right?)

We can build it in 2 turns if we move up the slider to 100%

Looks good anyway though.

OK - I will send it as is and see what they say about the tech situation.

At least 10 turns is a deal, I don't know if you can give it back.

You can cancel any resource deal by pillaging the resource itself then reconnecting it. Not an ideal use of worker-turns at this stage of development, but a possibility anyway.

You can cancel any resource deal by pillaging the resource itself then reconnecting it. Not an ideal use of worker-turns at this stage of development, but a possibility anyway.

I'll keep that in mind when we need to work on Taj Mahal. Say a barb did it.

Say a barb did it.

They 'll good think about us, if we a barb permit to destroy our improvement.

They 'll good think about us, if we a barb permit to destroy our improvement.

We've already had one barb axe come down that way. The only thing stopping more is the caraval.

I propose sending something like this to Quatronia:

Greetings,

Sorry again about the tech mix up. We have definitely been lax in our diplomacy recently due to other demands on our diplomats, but hope to avoid this in the future. We will make a proposal to the whole ETTA soon [or have made] about better focused research to regain a military advantage on Mav/Merlot.

Obviously, one reason for researching Nationalism would be Taj Mahal. Perhaps you had the same idea. Since we both can't build it, and it would be a waste of hammers to race each other for it, we would like to discuss this with you. First, was Taj the reason you researched Nationalism? If so, would you be willing to agree not to compete with us for some other wonder, if we agree not to try to complete Taj Mahal?

Also, it's clear based on our experiences on the Mavericks home island that we should better coordinate our military activities against them. Let us know what you think.

Regards,

Trystero, Team Sirius

It sure would work better if we had a specific wonder in mind to "exchange" for it. There's no point asking them want wonder they want us to build instead, we should either decide ourselves or leave it as "the next wonder we're competing for".

It's also something of an odd agreement for just two of us to make while ignoring what wonders the other teams might be after.

Maybe it's worth letting Quatronia suggest a compromise for getting the Taj Mahal, they at least surely won't come up with anything weaker than this general sense of getting the next wonder we might or might not have been competing for. Now that I think about it, we're in danger of trading a wonder we at least kind of wanted for a wonder Quatronia then only claim to be interested in in order to square off the deal.

That's an excellent point. I'll try rewriting this in the morning (it's almost 2 AM here). How should we handle this? Ask the ETTA what they think about us building Taj Mahal? What would we want in exchange for Taj Mahal? As I argued in the other thread, I don't think the benefits of a Golden Age are that great for us now (I'd like Liberalism and Constitution for Civics switches). Granted a GA is always helpful, but maybe we should focus on another wonder? Maybe MoM?

Edit: Maybe we should let other teams propose a solution? Regardless, let's not put hammers into it yet. We don't have the marble anyway.

I could write to them and say we noticed their galleons and ask if they need any information about the dispensation of Mavericks forces, since we have a lot of espionage against them.

I would prefer this. but be careful about "them", they could be pissed because we 've a lot of EsP against them.

What are the other mean?

Well they can see the EsP no matter but I think it's the Mav esp they would be interested in. Then again they can probably see the stack themselves since there ship is there.

I was wondering should we just cancel the stone to Quat or ask if their done yet with it?

We can/should ask, if they needed longer. Cancel is unfriendly imo.

Idea
Want we make a deal with Quat, and give them Injinya, to get Gold and Iron. If we don't get an agreement, there is the race, who is quickest in the first war turn. Also we can get with our ships there before, landing and/or attack begins for both at the same turn, and they 've rifles etc also.

So is my proposed message, please some make better english from them.

Greetings Quatronia
We know that we both get bloody noses at mavs isle, but now we both can and 'll conquer their towns in few turns. All towns are good and the most interesting is Injinya, so that our both armies 'll land there and make a race against another. Like the last turns at Comet between Ama and us. We don't think that a good idea, so we give you the town, if we get the other both.
If this an agreement, you can live with, then say so. If not make a better.
Sincerely Sirian

I think this is a good idea to pursue. Hopefully it will help us avoid sniping issues.

As i posted yesterday, we have 2 options:
- the one proposed by HUSch
- let the things happen and see if they can be in our favor

premise: i value more Mavs Capital than the Pyra city at this stage.

in case we decide to send a message to Quat we need to translate it first. (sorry HUSch, you english is even worst than mine :lol:) Anb maybe put some "flower" in it.

There's the chance they ignore it, like they did previously with my proposal of collaboration. Please remember that if Ama answered with an absurd delay and with ... (OK, we know well the matter), Quat did not sent anything.


BTW, speaking of answers, we're still awaiting for CDZ, aren't we?

Yes were waiting for CDZ's response as well, I think they may ignore this but I'd still like for it to be sent.

We have had a very poor history of military collaboration up to this point. You can send the message if you like, but I doubt we'll get any sort of response in a meaningful time frame. It seems rather late to start coordinating with them anyways. They are likely to think that the only reason we are doing so is because we are afraid they are going to take something we want.

I would not bother with the message and just see what happens.

As I mention in the turn discussion thread we can send this:

Hello,
We might have cause you a bit of confusion as our "Sorry guys" line right before the attack was ment as a war declaration, not an apology/cease fire.
We now understand that we should had PM a couple of lines or at least made the purpose clearer.

Alltriia, on behalf of Team Sirius.

I'm asking for the same input as in the Amazon diplomacy thread; Any alterations? Don't send? Send? When?

We might need to send another one or add something to this if we decide to go for the NAPs.

WEll it does seem the majority wants to do a nap so we can offer that to them as well.

OK, here's the new one if we're going for a NAP:
Hello,
We might have cause you a bit of confusion as our "Sorry guys" line right before the attack was ment as a war declaration, not an apology/cease fire.
We now understand that we should had PM a couple of lines or at least made the purpose clearer.

After your well thought strategy we're offering a 10 turn NAP scheme renewable only by active communication, if you're still willing. The reason for our aparent contradiction in actions is because we have been debating the issue and the process has been too slow.

Alltriia, on behalf of Team Sirius.
I'm not too happy with this one. I'm trying to find a way to compliment them on their defense and to not give much away about our internal communication process.
Trystero, are you able to make it better?

I already said to send the first paragraph.

For the rest, you know my strategy: kill'em, kill'em all!!!

We started the dance, now let's continue. Pity we have few hours left, unless we ask for a pause.

We can do so 2 or 3 times in a game and the pause will last 24 hours or until we decide to unpause. Sorry to have thought this only now, we could have better used the pause before to declare.

Yes, you've already stated your thoughts. I'm waiting for the others.

We could had asked for the pause right after the attack to clarify that cease fire confusion. I think now is too late.

Irgy, Husch, Alltriia all asked for Nap. I think Trystero is the only one I am not sure about.

Frankly were not at an advantage and I thought we were. We once again jumped the gun too soon. We should have been quicker on this issue.

Sorry - I am really busy at work and with RL this week, and I'm not sure what you are asking my opinion about. Is it whether to continue the war against Quatronia? Who are we discussing a non-aggression pact with?

Yes should we continue this war or offer nap.

Offer a NAP to Quatronia? Why would we do that? Or do you mean offer them a 10 turn peace deal?

With regards to continuing the war, how well prepared are we? Can we hold off a Quat counterattack?

Has Amazon said anything about this?

Yeah a ten turn peace may be a good idea. Bulb landed our troops a turn ago and we lost several units. We've retreated this turn. They also got Military science this turn. They have MG as well in there cities.

First off, we do have an agreement with the Amazons about not excluding(that also meens not attacking) any ETTT member before they are done with Merlot.

I've also posted a basic message to Amazon in the Amazon diplomacy discussion thread and I'm waiting for people's input on the 10 turn NAP with Q to send it.

Since everyone spoke, I'll be sending both in a couple of hours.

Trystero: Irgy mentioned that you would be the best one to do the diplomatic front. I can lend a hand if you're too busy.

EDIT: Sent (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10487989&postcount=38).

How can you offer a NAP?

First off, we do have an agreement with the Amazons about not excluding(that also meens not attacking) any ETTT member before they are done with Merlot.
If this is right, how can you begin a war?

I don't understand the sit anymore. There was a long prep for war against Quat, not good enough, but this is a point against our capability. Now we are in war and you couldn't go back, like our ations against Mav.

and 2. I can't see that Ama has done anything the last 10-15 turns to fight against Mer.

Alpha
If you 've read my post in the sense of being for NAP, you didn't understand my posts, perhaps I 've formulate wrong.

I changed it to 10 turn peace deal(cease fire). I have the habit of incorrectly using the term for most things.

If I'm following your thoughts correctly, that was the only way we found to honour our agreements, keep Amazon on our side and leave the ETTT.

I think we toke much more time preparing to invade the Maverics than invading Q. And jumping the gun unprepared led to this.
No, we can't go back. Q has confirmation on what's going on(even if they didn't suspected before wish is unlikely) and the peace deal is to give Amazon time to gut Merlot. We also need to continue to put hammers on military units and consider buffing up some periferal cities defences.

Agreed. We should have already seen the scores going down and I forgot to ask them what's happening. I'll send an additional email.

In 9 turns end the Ama-NAP.

ok. Let's just wait and see what's their reply.