Here is a bunch of new Hoplite units for Exsanguination’s “Alexander the Great” scenario. They are nothing much, just simple modifications of the Civ3 Hoplite.
They would also suitable for Xerxes invasion of Greece or the Peloponnesian War, and could even be used as other nations heavy spearmen, such as the Etruscans, Campanians, Carthaginians, and the early Romans (who also used them until the sack of Rome in 387 BC by the Gauls caused them to reform the army into Legionaries).

Please see the following link for how to add these units to Civ3…..

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=31576

As the Civ3 Hoplite only has an attack of 1, but a defence of 3, it is almost impossible for it to destroy another heavy infantry unit.
So I think it represents little more than a “Militia Hoplite”, capable of defending a city, but no good at attacking one.

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Later Edit:
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Due to popular demand, I have (finally!) created some civilopeadia pictures for all eight new Hoplites....

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Civilopeadia_Hoplites.zip

Citizen Hoplite
------------------
This is the wealthier Greek citizen who is able to afford the expensive full Hoplite equipment, and has enough Citizen free time to train with it, so is capable of attacking and defeating an enemy.
Suggested stats: 2-3-1, cost 30, requires iron, and the Greeks build this unit instead of the Civ3 “Swordsman” (because in reality, it was the Romans and Celts in the west that used swords & shields, while the people of the east such as the Greeks and Persians used spears & shields, NOT swordsmen).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Citizen_Hoplite.zip

Allied Hoplite
-----------------
All the Greek city states were relatively small and couldn’t raise more than about 5,000 soldiers each. So ancient Greek armies larger than this were often alliances and coalitions. This unit represents these ‘allies’.
Suggested stats: 2-3-1, available with Bronze Working, requires no resources, cost 40, and upgrades to “Citizen Hoplite” (so if there is no iron, or if it runs out or is captured, then the Greeks will have to depend more on “Allied Hoplites” instead of their own citizens….even if these ‘allies’ demand political concessions: i.e. they cost more but require no resources).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Allied_Hoplite.zip

Theban Sacred Band
-------------------------
These were the elite of the Theban army. Composed of 300 pairs of homosexual lovers, they usually formed the front rank of the Theban Hoplite phalanx, but were destroyed in 338 BC at the battle of Chaeronea by Philip of Macedon’s Companion cavalry, led by his son Alexander.
Suggested stats: 2-3-1, requires iron, +2 hit points, and costs 60 (this is expensive in order to discourage the building of too many of them, as only one unit existed in reality).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Sacred_Band.zip

Theban Hoplite
-------------------
These were the troops who made up the bulk of the Boetian armies.
The symbol on the bronze shield is the ‘club of Hercules’, which was the national symbol of Thebes. Whereas most Greek city states allowed their Hoplites to wear and display anything they liked, Thebes and Sparta had national symbols on their shields and wore standardized uniforms.
Suggested stats: 2-3-1, requires iron, costs 30 (the same as the “Citizen Hoplite”).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Theban_Hoplite.zip

Spartan Hoplite
-------------------
The famous Spartans were the elite of the Lacedaemonian Peloponnesian Greeks. They lived in a strict ‘caste’ society, totally devoted to hardship and military training, with the Spartites of the city of Sparta at the top. Because of this they were few in number, with only some 5,000 at their height, and dropping to less than 1,000 by 370 BC.
Despite their renown in all matters military, the Spartans were defeated by the Thebans at the battles of Leuctra and Mantinea in 371 & 362 BC. The subsequent freeing of their lower class serfs (called ‘helots’) effectively destroyed their hierarchical caste system.
Suggested stats: 2-3-1, requires iron, +1 hit point, costs 50 (like the Theban Sacred Band, the high cost is to discourage the building of too many of these units).

Please note that this figure is not in Civ colours, but is instead in red.
This is because the Spartans wore red. They always wore red. So I’ve made this unit…. red.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Spartan_Hoplite.zip

Perioikoi Hoplite
---------------------
These were the second rank of Lacedaemonian society, and represent the troops from cities other than Sparta, as well as those who failed the strict military training.
Although free citizens, they had no political power or any say in the running of the state, but still made up the bulk of the Lacedaemonian army.
Suggested stats: 2-3-1, requires iron, cost 30 (the same as the “Citizen Hoplite”).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Perioikoi_Hoplite.zip

Persian Subjugated Hoplite
--------------------------------
This unit represents the Carians, Lydians and Ionian Greeks who were forced to fight for the Persian Empire. Having no love for their Persian overlords, they were often unenthusiastic.
Suggested stats: 2-3-1, requires iron, -1 hit point, costs 30 (despite the –1 hit point, this unit is still better than Spearmen, and so should cost a bit more).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Subjugated_Hoplite.zip

Persian Hired Hoplite
--------------------------
(Civanator is already creating a ‘Mercenary hoplite’, and I didn’t want to steal the name, so I’ve called this one a “Hired Hoplite” instead)
The famous Immortals were destroyed by the Athenians and Spartans at the battle of Plataea in 479 BC, and were never reformed. Instead, the Persians used their vast wealth to hire the best troops around at that time….Greek Mercenary Hoplites.
Suggested stats: 2-3-1, requires iron, and costs 40 (if the “Subjugated Hoplite” costs 30, then this unit should cost a little bit more).

You know, in reality, the Persian Immortal was never as good as Civ3 portrays them. Here is a brief history of this unit:-
First, they were formed about 530 BC, and disappeared after 479 BC, so only existed for some 50 years (or just two Civ3 turns!).
Second, there were just 10,000 of them, no more, no less. This is less than 5% of the total Persian army.
Third, they were destroyed by Athenian & Spartan Hoplites.
Lastly, rather than reforming them, the Persians hired Greek Hoplites instead.
When Alexander the Great invaded Asia Minor in 334 BC for example, he faced some 20,000 Mercenary Hoplites at the battle of Granicus, and 30,000 a year later at the battle of Issus, but NO ‘Immortals’, because they had disappeared almost 150 years earlier.

Soooo…..how did the Greeks defeat them, why were they not rebuilt, and why did the Persians use mercenaries instead?
The reason is obvious….Greek Mercenary Hoplites WERE BETTER!!!
Personally, I think Immortals should be 2-2-1, +1 hit point, cost 50, upgrade to “Hired Hoplites”, and have a defensive bombardment of 2 or 3 with a range of zero (in reality they were armed with spears + bows. It’s hard to see, but if you look closely the Civ3 Immortal actually carries a bow case on his back).

Having said that, I very much doubt that I can persuade anyone to downgrade their favourite ancient Civ3 unit just because it’s more realistic!
(“Oh well….at least you tried Kryten, at least you tried”)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Hired_Hoplite.zip

Last of all, here is a cut-down units_32 file, with just the above units in it.
You can cut-‘n-paste this into your current units_32 file, or, if you are not able to do this, then hopefully Zulu9812 will add them to his excellent up-to-date units_32 file (good work by the way :goodjob: ).

BRILLIANT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thunderfall- how come the rating system has only 5 stars to attribute to a site- this one deserves 10 with candles and cream on top !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob:

Wow, all the new versions are really cool. Im gonna have to agree with W.I.N.T.E.R. on this one.

Such amazing effort, paired with originality and sheer sweetness deserves a prize:

The Sacred Band of the Spartan Order:
(The 1st official TRT Prize for Ancient and Antique Differentiated Scenario Design and Advanced Modding)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/SPARTAN_BIG_K.gif http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/SPARTAN1.gif

HOLY...........They are looking GREAT spimply SPLENDID

What cool idea :cool: and what detailed work :goodjob:

Now the greek empire can rise and rule the world :D

Bloody amazing.

Unbelievable!:goodjob: And here I was thinking Hoplites were only from Corinth! Great Work!

Kryten- Having said that, I very much doubt that I can persuade anyone to downgrade their favourite ancient Civ3 unit just because it’s more realistic!
(“Oh well….at least you tried Kryten, at least you tried”)
I wouldn’t be so sure;).

It took me awhile to make all those previews, but they are now on my site.

Good job, your units have a level of detail that few others have. (And i have seen em all)

GIDustin

awesome! Thanks a lot Kryten! :goodjob:

Awesome! If there's ever a Civ3 unitmaker's Hall of Fame, these guys will get you in or else there'll be hell to pay! :mad:

Outstanding. :goodjob:

Hmmm...I have been away for a week and all of a sudden I find this GREAT pack by Kryten!! :eek:

Wonderful job my friend! :goodjob:

Kryten, It is okay if you call the Hired Hoplite the Mercenary Hoplite, I don't even have a working computer that I can make animations on :(

Sweet... Hoplités for the Persian Wars. Nice job there, Kryten.

Hehehe- just to say that I am trying to incorporate all of these units into my mod... the greeks will get the citizen and allied hoplites as swordman replacement, persians will indeed upgrade to the hired and subjugated ones. The Spartan and Auxiliary Hoplites will fight for allied Karthago- and the Theban Units will fight for .... :confused: Egypt (can't think of anybody else...)

And, yesss- I followed your advice on the Immortals ;) hehehe

I would very much like to thank everybody for all their great praise....but as I said in the first post, these are little more than than the Civ3 Hoplite with nothing more than different helmets, different shields, and some of them now have cloaks.
Having said that.....each unit has 480 frames....times this by 8 units....and you have a total of 3,840 frames! :eek:
("You must be bleeding mad Kryten, or maybe you should work for Disney!" :lol: )

To Civanator,

Hired Hoplites they are, Hired Hoplites the will remain.
This does mean that the name 'Mercenary Hoplites' is still up for grabs should you or anyone else wish to use it. ;)

To W.i.n.t.e.r,

Originally posted by W.i.n.t.e.r ....and the Theban Units will fight for .... :confused: Egypt (can't think of anybody else...)

.....and you would be quite right!
The Egyptians, in their 60 year revolt against Persia, were not stupid. Like their Persian overlords, they also hired the best troops they could.....i.e. Mercenary Hoplites (although these were not necessarily Thebans, but ANY Greek Hoplites. And as most Hopltes wore anything they liked, then any Hoplite would do. ;) ).

Here is some info from the Encarta Encyclopaedia......

When the last Egyptian king was defeated by Cambyses II in 525 BC, the country entered a period of Persian domination under the 27th, or Persian, Dynasty. Egypt reasserted its independence under the 28th (404-399 BC) and 29th (399-380 BC) dynasties, but the 30th Dynasty (380-343 BC) was the last one of native rulers. The last 12 years of the Late Period represented the second period of Persian domination
(and was taken over by Alexander the Great in 331 BC).
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2002.

Despite the defeat of the Spartans led by Cleombrotus I, co-ruler of Sparta, at Leuctra in 371 BC, Agesilaus (one of the two kings of Sparta), continued to wage war. He died on his way home from a mercenary expedition in Egypt against the Persians.
Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2002

Wasn't there also a Greek Thebes, as in Oedipus?

Ah! Thats a good point Zulu9812.
I'm sure that most people already know this, but I'll mention it anyway, just in case.....

.....in ancient times, there were TWO cities called Thebes, one in Greece and the other in Egypt.
And of course Theban Hoplites come from the Greek city of Thebes.


Thebes (Greece), city of ancient Greece, in Boeotia, north of Mount Cithaeron (now Kithairon), north-west of Athens.
Historically Thebes was the most important city in Boetia and from c. 519 BC onwards was a great rival of Athens. In 479 BC, during the Persian invasion of Greece by Xerxes I, the Thebans sided with the invaders and fought against the confederated Greeks at Plataea. When the Peloponnesian War broke out in 431 BC, Thebes fought in alliance with Sparta and at the close of the war was eager for the destruction of Athens; it soon, however, began to dread the growing power of its ally and in the Corinthian War (395-386) BC it was allied with Athens, Corinth, and Argos against Sparta. A bitter antagonism arose between Thebes and Sparta, and a struggle ensued that resulted in a brief period of Theban supremacy in Greece, won by the victory of Epaminondas at Leuctra in 371 BC, and brought to an end by his death at Mantinea in 362 BC.

The eloquence of the Athenian orator Demosthenes persuaded the Thebans to unite with the Athenians in opposition to the encroachments of King Philip II of Macedon, but their combined forces were to no avail, and in 338 BC, at the Battle of Chaeronea, the power of Greece was crushed. After the death of Philip, the Thebans made a fierce but unsuccessful attempt to regain their freedom. Their city was destroyed in 335 BC by Philip's son and successor, Alexander the Great, who sold the surviving population into slavery. Alexander is said to have spared only the temples and the house of the poet Pindar. Although the city was rebuilt in 315 BC by King Cassander of Macedon and prospered for a time, it had dwindled to a wretched village by the 1st century BC.
(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2002.)

Thebes (Egypt) (in Egyptian, Weset, or Newt), city of ancient Egypt, located on both banks of the River Nile, about 725 km (450 mi) south of the modern city of Cairo.
The city was known to the Egyptians as No-Amon (“the city of Amon”). It was named Thebes by the Greeks, who also called it Diospolis (“heavenly city”). Of prehistoric origin, Thebes first appears in Egyptian records during the Old Kingdom (c. 2686-2181 BC). Tombs of Egyptian pharaohs dating from the 6th Dynasty (2345-2181 BC) have been discovered in the necropolis, which lies on the western side of the Nile.

Under the pharaohs of the 9th and 10th dynasties (c. 2160-2025 BC), Thebes developed into the administrative centre of a powerful line of nomarchs (governors). The Theban nomarchs successfully challenged the pharaohs of Heracleopolis, winning complete control of Egypt in about 2035 BC. With the establishment of the Theban dynasty of pharaohs, Thebes served as the capital of Egypt until the death of the last Ramesside king in 1085 BC, with a short break when Akhenaton removed the capital to Akhetaton (modern-day Tell el-Amarna) in an attempt to establish his new religion (1379-c. 1361 BC).

It was re-established as the seat of Egyptian government shortly after the death of Akhenaton in 1337 BC. Subsequently, in particular during the 19th and 20th dynasties (1295-1069 BC), the pharaohs made additional contributions to the architectural splendour of the city. The Assyrians sacked Thebes in the 7th century BC. Although it was later partly restored, the city declined steadily after the collapse of the 31st Dynasty in 332 BC. In the late 1st century BC, Thebes was destroyed by the Romans.
(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2002.)

:)

Very impressive units. Great job! I'm very tempted to try to make a Greek scenario using all of your units.

Good Job! :goodjob: :love: Waiting for your next work. :)

Originally posted by Kryten
Persian Hired Hoplite
--------------------------
You know, in reality, the Persian Immortal was never as good as Civ3 portrays them. Here is a brief history of this unit:-
First, they were formed about 530 BC, and disappeared after 479 BC, so only existed for some 50 years (or just two Civ3 turns!).
Second, there were just 10,000 of them, no more, no less. This is less than 5% of the total Persian army.
Third, they were destroyed by Athenian & Spartan Hoplites.
Lastly, rather than reforming them, the Persians hired Greek Hoplites instead.
When Alexander the Great invaded Asia Minor in 334 BC for example, he faced some 20,000 Mercenary Hoplites at the battle of Granicus, and 30,000 a year later at the battle of Issus, but NO ‘Immortals’, because they had disappeared almost 150 years earlier.

Soooo…..how did the Greeks defeat them, why were they not rebuilt, and why did the Persians use mercenaries instead?
The reason is obvious….Greek Mercenary Hoplites WERE BETTER!!!
Personally, I think Immortals should be 2-2-1, +1 hit point, cost 50, upgrade to “Hired Hoplites”, and have a defensive bombardment of 2 or 3 with a range of zero (in reality they were armed with spears + bows. It’s hard to see, but if you look closely the Civ3 Immortal actually carries a bow case on his back).

Having said that, I very much doubt that I can persuade anyone to downgrade their favourite ancient Civ3 unit just because it’s more realistic!
(“Oh well….at least you tried Kryten, at least you tried”)

I love the idea of changing the Immortals to Spear wielding maniacs. Do you think you could do a conversion of the current Immortal and give him a spear instead of the sword? That way we can be more historically accurate and we can use the original immortal as a flavor unit for the Middle Eastern Civs.

I know there is that conversion of the Immortal with the Naginata, but I was hoping for something a bit more accurate.

Hey Kryten, I just wanted to let you know that I've added you "Hired Hoplite" to my game as a generic Phalanx unit available to most civs. It looks absolutely beautiful in-game.

Thank you so much for such great work! :goodjob:

Thank you Colonel Kraken :) (personally, I think it looks best in dark red or purple civ colours....but then I think that ALL the units look better in dark colours....not pink!).

To Kal-el,

Originally posted by Kal-el Do you think you could do a conversion of the current Immortal and give him a spear instead of the sword?

Sorry it's taken me a few days to answer you.
Yes, this is one of the simple little conversions that I've had in mind, along with giving the Knight their main historical weapon.....the lance.

Histoically, the Immortals were equipped with short spears, bows, and a 'figure-of-eight' cello shaped shield (like the one that the Civ3 Legionary is carrying....and they NEVER used in reality!).

I'll add it to my list, but I should warn you that I have almost a dozen Alexander the Great units to finish first, so won't be able to do this one for a month or two.
Leave it with me...... ;)

I can wait. :D

Kryten, you should go to the tutorial in my signature (make a unit with Rhinoceros 2.0), and at least download rhinoceros 2.0. I think you will have a lot of fun, and cut down your workload by 90%. It really only takes a couple of hours to learn.

I too made my first unit cut and paste, so I learned alot from that experience, but seeing how much work you have done in the cut and paste arena, you should have no trouble moving to the next level.

These look great BTW :goodjob:

Kryten, you should go to the tutorial in my signature (make a unit with Rhinoceros 2.0), and at least download rhinoceros 2.0. I think you will have a lot of fun, and cut down your workload by 90%. It really only takes a couple of hours to learn.

I too made my first unit cut and paste, so I learned alot from that experience, but seeing how much work you have done in the cut and paste arena, you should have no trouble moving to the next level.

These look great BTW :goodjob:

I promise, I promise, I promise ( ;) ) Neomega that I WILL use your excellent tutorial (which I have printed and read) to make proper 3D units.....when I get time.

It's just that Exsanguination is desperately waiting for another half a dozen units for the "Alex the Great" scenario, and I fear that trying to learn a new method at this moment will delay things even further (old dogs and new tricks springs to mind :crazyeye: ).

Once all the "Alex" units are done I will have more free time to learn the in's-'n-out's of 3D units. But for the moment, I'll just have to use the old-fashioned/time-consuming 'cut-'n-paste' method.
(Although I DO wish that you had posted that tutorial six months ago! :lol: )

Very nice work Kryten, I have been away for a while and haven't had a chance to use these units until now. Nice work!

it shows you put a lot of hard work into these units [pimp] so good work and keep up the awesome units!awesome

Wow. Nice history lesson!

Not sure how I'm going to use these guys, but...I'll get some of them in! I love the capes! :D

First off: many thanks for the wicked units!

I'm OT here, but you started it :)

Kryten wrote:
'I very much doubt that I can persuade anyone to downgrade their favourite ancient Civ3 unit just because it’s more realistic!'

Well, you have persuaded me. But I don't fancy a 2-2-1 upgradeable Immortal at all, and outside of UUs I'd like to keep to the stat distribution, and hence the game balance, of the original; so I'm removing them altogether, except as a flavour graphic - a Saracen Swordsman for Arabic civs perhaps.

But what to do about a Persian UU? My best thought so far is this. A distinguishing feature of a Persian army as opposed to a Greek one was its preponderance of cavalry and relative lack of native (non-mercenary) heavy inf. So I think it's time for an early knight, so to speak :)

How about:

Saca Cataphract, 3-2-2 UU, requires Horses and Iron, Cost 40, upgrades to Knight. Persian heavy cav fought much like medieval knights, so this unit is an early form of the 4-3-2 Knight. 'Saca' means Scythian: the Saca Cataphracts from the east of the empire around the Jaxartes were present at Gaugamela, where they appear to have fought out an honourable draw with Alex's Companion Cavalry. They can be taken as representative of Persian heavy cav in general (you could just call the unit Heavy Cav if preferred). To keep the uniqueness factor, the freed up 4-2-1 stats would be transferred to the Gallic (costing 40 - 30 was too cheap for such a dangerous unit), and this fits them well enough.

There are problems with this idea. A UU should really be native, but much of the 'Persian' cav was not actually Persian, as the chosen unit suggests. Also, I'm not certain that the Sacas themselves were that heavy: one source I read suggests that at some point they were re-armed with heavier equipment after starting out as a light horse archer type. Further, if Kryten comes out with a Companion Cavalry for the Greeks, I'll have no way to fit it into this scheme without dropping the original stat distribution or changing the Greek UU.

I have some ideas about the Hoplites as well, but that's enough for now. Some of you out there must have grappled with this too - what do you think?

Cyclonic

My understanding is that the Cataphract didn't really develop until the Byzantine army, when Rome realized that they needed to move away from infantry as the basis for their armies in order to compete with the more mobile armies of the Germanic hordes and the Asian Light Cavalry. In response the Romans developed heavy horse archers who also carried spear and sword. i.e. the Cataphract. But I could be wrong. :)

Personally I would like to see more mounted units with better weapons.

Kal-El:
You may well be right about that. I took the name from Montgomery's account of Gaugamela in his Concise History of Warfare (p47), and I've seen it in table top OOBs. Cataphract is a Greek word, so not one that the Persians (or Scythians) would have used themselves. I guess it became applied to their heavy cav because most of our sources are Graeco-Roman or Byzantine. To them any heavy cav was a Cataphract because that's what they called their own.

Its so hard to "know" anything. :(

Cataphracts were used by Thessalian states pre-Alexander the Great, and later by the Diodoch states before being adopted into the Byzantine army. But even then the Byzantines had more Gothic Foederati.

Looking at Monty again, I see that he calls them the Saca 'Cataphracts', using quotes, as if he is conscious of repeating an established error. I think the name is OK as long as you know that it may be a bit inaccurate. A better argument against it is how specific it is. Looking at my diagram here, the cavalry includes Scythians, Medians, Bactrians, Cappadocians, Indians, Carians, Armenians and Parthians! And some Horse Guards, who are in the centre in front of Darius himself. If these are actually Persian perhaps they would be a better choice. The original choice has a nice ring to it, though.

What is a Cataphract?
----------------------------

Basically, if the rider and horse are so completely encased in armour that they don't need shields, then it is a cataphract.
(BTW, NO mounted troops used shields until about 300 BC)

So have a look at the Bactrian & Achaemenid Persian in these pictures.....
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Cataphracts_picture1.gif
Does just adding a bit of scale armour to the horse’s chest and the rider’s legs turn cavalry into a cataphractari?
I would say no, not when compared to the full protection of the following images.

'True' cataphracts were first used by the Seleucid Successors of Alexander in about 300 BC.
The Successors were always looking for gimmicks as a way of defeating their rivals pike phalanx, such as Scythe Chariots, War Elephants, and indeed, Cataphracts. None really worked.
It wasn't until the early Middle Ages that sufficiently large horses were bred, and the stirrup wasn't invented until about 700 AD, so Ancient Cataphract horses were always a bit underpowered for all the armour they had to carry.
In fact, you could consider them as a phalanx on horseback....with the same disadvantages (heavy, slow, and vulnerable to disorder. Certainly the Roman Legionaries has no problems defeating Seleucid/Armenian/Pontic cataphractari).

So what should the Persian UU be?

Well, Immortals came into existence after the Persian Empire was already founded, much like Praetorians came into existence after the Roman Empire was fully established.
So what was the unit that allowed Cyrus the Great to build the Persian Empire in the first place?
It was......Persian Horsemen!
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/PersianHorsemanAttack.gif
(Under construction. I may change the horse for a better one in the final unit)
And here are their mortal enemies, the Macedonian Companion Horseman
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/CompanionAttack.gif
(Also under construction. ALMOST finished)

So I would suggest the following:-
2-1-2 Horsemen
2-1-3 Light Horse Archer (with a defensive bombardment of 3)
3-1-3 Persian Horseman (with a defensive bombardment of 2)
4-1-2 Companion Horseman
3-2-2 Heavy Horseman (Bactrian/Roman/Celtic/Germanic/Carthaginian/etc)
3-3-2 Cataphract (Seleucid/Armenian/Cappadocian/Parthian/Sassanid/Byzantine)
3-2-3 Eastern Horse Archer (with a defensive bombardment of 3)
4-2-2 Norman Crusader
4-3-2 Knight

Now you may notice that I am suggesting making the Heavy Horseman a 3-2-2, the same as the PTW Celtic Swordsman.
This is because I HATE the stats for the Celtic Swordsman!

Yes, the Celts used a 'wild charge' on the battlefield.
But if you give them a move of 2, then they can strategically move about the map FASTER than trained and drilled Roman Legionaries! This is completely opposite to what the history books tell us.
Also, because of this extra movement, their cost is almost double that of the Legionary!! (I sure that Julius Caesar would have been pleased to note that he was wrong and a game called Civ3 was right, and that he won all his battles in Gaul because the Romans outnumbered the Celts by two-to-one!!! :crazyeye: ).

Personally, I think the Celtic Swordsman should be 2-2-1, costing 10, so there are a huge number of these poor quality UU's running about (then the Germanic Franks/Goths/Vandals would be 3-2-1 costing 20, while the Legionary is of course 3-3-1 costing 30).

However, I very much doubt that I can pursued anyone to downgrade their SECOND favourite Ancient Civ3 unit, just because it's more realistic!
("Keep trying Kryten, keep trying!" :lol: )

The Horse Archers of the Byzantine period I believe were known as Clibinarii, if Im not mistaken.

i was talking mainly about mounted units with guns especially native americans i was wanting to do a old west scenario yet with only one native american unit and only as a rider it is hard and since i'm having trouble figuring out this flicster it's just going to take some time if anyone can help me on flicster please e mail me or pm me thanks.

Actually, the picture above of the Later Sassanid (the one with horse armour at the front only and a small shield) is a 'Clibanarii'.

A quote from "The Armies and Enemies of Imperial Rome" by Phil Barker about the Sassanid Persians:-
"The most important part of their army were the noble cavalry, called Clibanarii. This means 'Baking oven men' in latin, which in that climate might well be appropriate, but originally derives from 'Grive-Pan', which is old Persian for 'Warrior'. Some men were more or less equivalent to the Palmyran, Roman and Parthian cataphract cavalry. Others were rather lighter armoured and had the bow as their primary weapon, although still possessing the Kontos (i.e. lance). Horse armour was normal. An all-round protection of leather or thick felt was at first favoured, but this was later apparently superseded by partial metal armour in front only."

The late Romans also had several units called by this name, as can be seen from the Notitia Dignitatum, which is a list of all the Roman field units dated about 400 AD:-
Equites Sagittarii Clibanarii
Comites Clibanarii
Equites Persae Clibanarii
Equites Secundi Clibanarii Parthi
Equites Promoti Clibanarii
Equites Quarti Clibanarii Parthi
Cuneus Equitum Clibanariorum Palmirenorum
(These are apparently armed and armoured somewhat differently from other horse archer units such as the Equites Sagittarii Seniores, Equites Parthi Sagittarii Seniores, Equites Primo Sagittarii, and so on.
Probably because the Clibanarii were heavy cavalry with lance and bow, while other Sagittarii units were light cavalry horse archers)

To horsematrix,

I don't know if it helps, but have a read of this old thread about using FLICster.....

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?threadid=29026

:)

Kryten thanks that thread does really help out it appears this is going to take more patience then i first thought thats cool the results will be well worth it thanks again.

Interesting stuff Kryten, thanks for all the info.

Agree fully about the movement of the Gallic - my jaw dropped when I first saw their stats. But I'd make them pricy 4-2-1 heavy hitters rather than cheapies. Roman armies were always outnumbered by the Gaulish tribal mass, but a big pile of Spearmen and a few Archers can cover that. The Gallic I take to be the nobility who could afford the equipment and the time to train with it.

Your stat scheme looks good, ideal for ancient Med scenarios. It's not appropriate to a general flavour mod like mine, because it would mean giving advantageous 'pseudo-UUs' to certain civs. For the Persian UU I like both the 3-1-3 light and the 3-2-2 heavy options: one will definitely be my Persian, can't make up my mind which yet. If the latter, I'll drop the Cataphract name, since the usage is obviously confusing.

Kryten,

Any chance of you making a 'real' Immortal? I have moved them to an upgrade spearman, but the default unit has a sword.

Eventually. ;)

(Once all the Ready-Made Multi-Figure Modpacks are completed first)

Here is a very rough and crude preview of the MF version.....

You keep teasing me with that Immortal! aaaaargh!!!

I look forward to seeing the multi figure immortal it looks cool good work kryten.:goodjob: :thumbsup:

Originally posted by Kryten
Eventually. ;)

(Once all the Ready-Made Multi-Figure Modpacks are completed first)

Here is a very rough and crude preview of the MF version.....

:confused: So your going to make an MF version first? Don't you need the single unit before you can make the Multi?

Don't mean to be a pest, but do you have any ETA. I am just about done with my High Mobility Mod and wanted to include it.

P.S. Do you mind my including you awesome ancinet units in my MOD when I post it. Namely, the Peltast, Phalangite and evemtually Immortal?

Awesome! Kryten, you make the best units. I have some suggestions if you want.

cool units and...


...Originally posted by Kryten

Thebes (Egypt) (in Egyptian, Weset, or Newt),


Newt is a little further north and known as Nubt or Naqada

:egypt:

Originally posted by Kryten
Personally, I think Immortals should be 2-2-1, +1 hit point, cost 50, upgrade to “Hired Hoplites”, and have a defensive bombardment of 2 or 3 with a range of zero
[/B]

If you want the Immortals upgradeable, then what's the prerequisite for Hired Hoplites? I had assumed Iron Working, but if that's the case then you'd never get to build Immortals.

Currency, I'd assume. :)

Kryten, My knowledge of Greek history pales next to yours, but I too hated the misrepresentation of the Immortals. I normally mod them into a glorified spearman, either +1 HP, 2/2/1, 30 shields, or just 2/2/1. (They Don't replace spearman if they get two upgrades).

Since your a Brit, I commonly make the Longbowmen a UU for England and make it the best unit (and most expensive) in the medeval era. 5/4/1, very expensive!

Originally posted by Mephansteras
Currency, I'd assume. :)

:rolleyes: :crazyeye: Yeah, that's obvious. Thanks

I realised I had just downloaded these, without saying anything, so; Thank you!
I use 'em as mediterranean swordsmen, as an egyptian with a dead wolf on his head is quite ridicoulous. :)

Ten Stars **********:goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob: :goodjob:

I can't wait to see the Macedonian Companion Horseman, they look sweet. I was looking for a good light cav. for my unstopable army. Now all will kneel before the might of my Horseman.:saiyan:

Very nice units Kryten, just downloaded 2 of them. :goodjob:

I've been away for awhile. Does anyone know if the Persian Horsemen or the Macedonian Horsemen are completed?

That's a negative, Halidon55.

Have Civilopedia Large & Small pcx files been made for any of these units? If so, where might I find them (they don't appear to be in this thread)? If not, may I be so bold as to request that somebody with the know-how make some? There were some made for the peltast...

Thanks!

*Mithadan flashes an ingratiating smile*:D

Mithadan,
I have added some civilopeadia picture to the first post of this thread.
They are fairly crude....but better than nothing. :)

Originally posted by Halidon55
Does anyone know if the Persian Horsemen or the Macedonian Horsemen are completed?

Yes, the "Macedonian Companion Horseman" is finished and available.
(Still working on the others...... :crazyeye: )

on the citizen hoplite what is the civ-specific colour, pink or blue, I ask as it would be rather...unfortunate.... for some macho elite Athenian Ephiboi corps to be running around in...pink....

As with most previews created by FLICster, all the blue bits are in civ colours. :)
The Citizen Hoplite has a blue tunic under his breastplate, blue wristbands, a blue bird emblem on his shield, and a blue & red horsehair crest on his helmet.

Of course, you could assign any colour you liked to the nation that uses them..... :D

Thanks, Kryten!

hmmm...the unfortunate thing is my "pink" was refering to the "red"....

Originally posted by Kryten
Persian Hired Hoplite
--------------------------
(Civanator is already creating a ‘Mercenary hoplite’, and I didn’t want to steal the name, so I’ve called this one a “Hired Hoplite” instead)
The famous Immortals were destroyed by the Athenians and Spartans at the battle of Plataea in 479 BC, and were never reformed. Instead, the Persians used their vast wealth to hire the best troops around at that time….Greek Mercenary Hoplites.
Suggested stats: 2-3-1, requires iron, and costs 40 (if the “Subjugated Hoplite” costs 30, then this unit should cost a little bit more).

You know, in reality, the Persian Immortal was never as good as Civ3 portrays them. Here is a brief history of this unit:-
First, they were formed about 530 BC, and disappeared after 479 BC, so only existed for some 50 years (or just two Civ3 turns!).
Second, there were just 10,000 of them, no more, no less. This is less than 5% of the total Persian army.
Third, they were destroyed by Athenian & Spartan Hoplites.
Lastly, rather than reforming them, the Persians hired Greek Hoplites instead.
When Alexander the Great invaded Asia Minor in 334 BC for example, he faced some 20,000 Mercenary Hoplites at the battle of Granicus, and 30,000 a year later at the battle of Issus, but NO ‘Immortals’, because they had disappeared almost 150 years earlier.

Soooo…..how did the Greeks defeat them, why were they not rebuilt, and why did the Persians use mercenaries instead?
The reason is obvious….Greek Mercenary Hoplites WERE BETTER!!!
Personally, I think Immortals should be 2-2-1, +1 hit point, cost 50, upgrade to “Hired Hoplites”, and have a defensive bombardment of 2 or 3 with a range of zero (in reality they were armed with spears + bows. It’s hard to see, but if you look closely the Civ3 Immortal actually carries a bow case on his back).

Having said that, I very much doubt that I can persuade anyone to downgrade their favourite ancient Civ3 unit just because it’s more realistic!
(“Oh well….at least you tried Kryten, at least you tried”)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Hired_Hoplite.zip

True that Hoplites where way better then the Immortals.I remember when there was a civil war in Persia between 2 heirs to the Persian throne,Cyrus the Young and his brother who's name I've forgotten.Cyrus hired 10,000 Greek Mercenaries to fight for him and pay them after he defeats his brother,but eventually he was killed in battle so the Greeks didn't get their pay.

The Greek commanders of the Mercenary army had decided to move their troops out of Persia and back to Greece while looting every city and town they went by to make up for the pay they were promised but never got.As they made their trek out of Persia they were continully harassed by the Persian Army.One day the Persians invited the Greek commanders to a peace treaty but instead killed them under a guise of treachery,it was then the Greeks had no commanders,so they turned to a cavalry captain named Xenophone,an Athenian who was banished from the city for serving as a mercenary for the Spartans during the Peloppenisian(Spelling?)War and a student of Plato,to guide them out of Persia.

They eventually made it back to Greece but in this one trek,they showd the world the many military weaknesses of Persia.Alexander the Great even studied the tactics used by the mercenaries before invading Perisa.

i thought the Spartans were better person-for-oerson than the Thebans. shouldn't the Spartans cost 60 with +2 hp and the theban Sacred Band cost 50 with +1 hp.

Originally posted by sims2789
I thought the Spartans were better person-for-person than the Thebans. Shouldn't the Spartans cost 60 with +2 hp and the Theban Sacred Band cost 50 with +1 hp?

Yes, the Spartan Hoplites were much better man-for-man than the regular Theban Hoplites....but the Theban Sacred Band were not regular soldiers.
They were the very elite of the Theban army, and there were only 300 of them.

Plus the fact that the Thebans defeated the Spartans at the battles of Leuctra & Mantinea in 371 & 362BC, partly because of the tactics of the Theban general Epaminondas, and partly because of the Theban Sacred Band, unlike other Greek Hoplites, could stand up to and match the dreaded Spartans.

So you have the choice:-
Either several Spartan Hoplites with +1 hit point each, OR, a Theban army of ordinary Hoplites and one elite Sacred band with +2. :)

hey Kryten, any plans to ever do an Athenian Hoplte with a nice big Owl on the shield?

Hello Everyone.
This is my first post ever on CivFanatics Forums. (Happy first post to me, Happy first post to me...).

Kryten, Great job on the Spartan Hoplite. I'm creating a Spartan Civ. I downloaded it only to find there is no PCX for it and no .wav and .amb files. Will you be creating these files? The sounds aren't too much of a problem. I could just apply regular Hoplite sounds to the Spartan Hoplite, but I'm thinking that I really need that pcx file to add it to the units_32.pcx. Also, does anyone know exactly where I could download an Agis III leaderhead? If you didn't know, he was a King of Sparta. I hope it doesn't take too long to get a reply...:-(

Scratch that-
I got the .pcx and applied the Hoplite sounds to the Spartan Hoplite. I also have two plights.
1) Every time I try to play a scenario with my new unit, right after I make my first city, the game jettisons me. What is wrong?

2)I notice that the Spartan Hoplite has nothing like a victory animation, attack a and attack b, etc. Is this what's affecting gameplay?

Agis III can be found here (not era-specific):
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=36868&highlight=Agis

Thnx hetairoi22.

Happy to have been of service... :)

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
I also have two plights.
1) Every time I try to play a scenario with my new unit, right after I make my first city, the game jettisons me. What is wrong?
2) I notice that the Spartan Hoplite has nothing like a victory animation, attack a and attack b, etc. Is this what's affecting gameplay?

To answer your queries in reverse order:-
2) No, the lack of an attack 'a' & victory flic will not affect things....providing the names in the ini files are correct.
1) You can fix it so that new units don't crash the game by, yet again, making SURE that the names in the ini files are correct. ;)

I made these old units before PTW, and in order to save download time, I didn't include any sound waves (I just linked them to the Civ3 Hoplite folder).
Because PTW has a different folder structure, then yes, these old links will need to be changed....or as you have done, to simply copy the Civ3 Hoplite sounds into the Spartan Hoplite folder.
BUT....you must check that the names in the ini files are correct.
(These means ALL names, including the sound files, must be IDENTICAL to those mentioned in the Spartan Hoplite ini file. Spaces and capital letters included.)

I've attached below a zip bundle containing the correct Spartan Hoplite ini file, as well as a screenshot of how they should look once the Civ3 Hoplite sound files and amb files (which control which sound file is played) have been added to the Spartan Hoplite folder.
Take a look and compare them with your own.

If you still have any trouble, them post again and we will get you sorted. :)

Kryten-
Thanks, but by the time I read this, I had fixed the problem! Sorry, but thanks for the effort!

P.S. How do I get a picture to appear by my name???

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
P.S. How do I get a picture to appear by my name???

Click the "User CP" button at the top of this screen. Next click "Edit options". At the very bottom of the list you'll see where (and can find info how) to add/edit your "Avatar".

Yours,

Oz The Avatarless :)

thx avatarless! You can now observe my avatar below my name. Thnx alot! :D

Kryten-
As soon as I get my DSL connection up, (It is next to me as I type), I will download your pre-made Muints. Well I was just thinkin' "Hey, I'm making a Persian Wars Scenario, and if I don't have my Spartan Hoplite units in munit form, they'll look silly next to the munit hoplites. So I was just wondering if you could get me Munits of your eight hoplites? It's fine if you don't want to. It's not that big of an issue.

P.S. Since you seem to know alot about Greek History, could you suggest what units I should use that were around the Persian Wars time. It would be much appreciated -thnx

Amenhotep,... Check out Kryten's Greek unit tree, which I've found
very helpful for modding, at the beginning of the Macedonian
Companion Horseman thread.

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
Since you seem to know alot about Greek History, could you suggest what units I should use that were around the Persian Wars time. It would be much appreciated -thnx

Have a look at this site for just about all your Persian army needs.... :)
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ancientpersia/index.html

....and although I have been recently diverted by other projects, I do intend to one day soon to convert ALL my units to multi-figure variations (this needs to be done for the "Alexander the Great" scenario anyway....which is another project that I intend to complete before Christmas).

Since god_money found my "Brief History of Greece" chart so useful, I am currently creating two more: "A Breif History Of Persia" and "A Brief History of Rome".
I won't post these just yet, as there are several new units required....which are currently under construction, and are also needed in both single & multi-figure form for "Alex the Great".
(I'm a busybusybusy Kryten! :crazyeye: )

Hey-
(I find myself returning to this particular thread alot! :D) Every time I add a .pcx picture to my units_32.pcx, when I play a game, the game crashes. Why is this?

:confused: Are you SURE that you are saving the altered units_32 file as a .pcx file?
If so, then I suspect it's not the units_32 file that is causing the crash.
Usually, crashes after modding are almost always due to items being misnamed.

Originally posted by Kryten

Since god_money found my "Brief History of Greece" chart so useful, I am currently creating two more: "A Breif History Of Persia" and "A Brief History of Rome".
I won't post these just yet, as there are several new units required....which are currently under construction, and are also needed in both single & multi-figure form for "Alex the Great".
(I'm a busybusybusy Kryten! :crazyeye: )

hehe... Talent knows no rest!
Something to look forward to for sure. :goodjob:

I'll try your solution, Kryten, but I thought it might've been a centering problem...:confused:
P.S. What does Kryten mean anyway?

Originally posted by Amenhotep7
What does Kryten mean anyway?

Actually....he comes from a British comedy series called "Red Dwarf".
He is a 2000 series mechanoid, who is trapped on a five mile long mining starship 3 million years in the future with the last remaining human, a hologram of a dead crewmate, and a creature who has evolved from the domestic cat.
(And is currently being made into a film :) )

Here is a picture of Kryten with his groinal attachment (....please don't ask! :lol: )......

:lol::crazyeye::confused::crazyeye::lol:

Originally posted by Kryten


Actually....he comes from a British comedy series called "Red Dwarf".
He is a 2000 series mechanoid, who is trapped on a five mile long mining starship 3 million years in the future with the last remaining human, a hologram of a dead crewmate, and a creature who has evolved from the domestic cat.

He was also the most unfailingly humane one of the lot :) -- and I'm intrigued as to how it'll translate to the silver screen!

-Oz

Originally posted by Kryten
:confused: Are you SURE that you are saving the altered units_32 file as a .pcx file?
If so, then I suspect it's not the units_32 file that is causing the crash.
Usually, crashes after modding are almost always due to items being misnamed.

Sorry it took me so long to reply. One, I procrastinated and two, I had to deal with a more or less direct path of Hurricane Isabel that hit us here on the Eastern end of the states. I saved it as a .pcx file and it still didn't work... It only shows the icons...It's not that big of a prob...:sad:

Have you tried the monster units_32 file created by zulu9812, which contains some 1000 new icons! :eek:
Here is the link.....
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51498&pagenumber=1

If you are still having problems with your own units_32 file, then could you zip it up and post it here, so that I and others can have a look and give it a try? :)

That's just great, Kryten, but believe it or not, that pcx lacks the one icon that I need most! :rolleyes: It's the Ancient Trireme by aaglo. It's fine... Unless you feel like doing me a favor and putting it on that file... This is starting to get off topic. We should continue this thru pm.

P.S. Hint hint, read my quote about the Ionian leaderhead...

On-topic:
Kryty, these are wonderful hoplites. Thank You Very Much :thumbsup:

Off-topic:
Amenhotep,
If you have any basic graphic programs (well, windows paintbrush won't do), you can add the unit32.pcx -file which was included in the trireme zip

Really? I have Photoimpression, and that's about it. I also have another windows program that I don't remember...It's not used that often...When I tried to add the trireme to the units_32.pcx w/ photoimpression...well, that's where the problem is...:sad:

Off-topic:
Would anyone want to try the alpha version of my Persian/Peloponnesian Wars Scenario? I believe it's the first of it's kind in these forums! :D

I am happy to be able to announce that:

Due to his/her outstanding creativeness along the Alexander the Great Hoplite Unit Set and in high anticipation of soon-to-come new creations down the same track in the making of Amenhotep7's Peloponnesian War

*Kryten*

has been awarded the TRT ANTIQUE AWARD exclusively reserved for creators whose makings, vision and perfection have enriched the Civ3 universe well above all expectations and rankings.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads5/trt_antique_award.gif

I hope you will accept the award and keep up the good work for many future Civilization generations to come!

Why thank you very, very much W.i.n.t.e.r. :)
I am quite honoured....although I don't think that I truly deserve this award, as I am not really a 'unit creator' as such, but more of a 'unit adapter' (all I do is use cut-'n-paste to adapt other peoples units, in this case, those originally created by the Firaxis artists).
Nonetheless, you have encouraged me to continue with my feeble (and time consuming!) efforts. :D

bah, of course you do, so stop being humble, and accept the honour, afterr all, if I had been in charge you would haver recieved it for you work on the cataphract units alone, abnd any way you want to look at it, you still put your own free time into these units, and deserve, at least in my opinion, far more then just a reward as simple as the one you have been given

Originally posted by Kryten
Why thank you very, very much W.i.n.t.e.r. :)
I am quite honoured....although I don't think that I truly deserve this award, as I am not really a 'unit creator' as such, but more of a 'unit adapter' (all I do is use cut-'n-paste to adapt other peoples units, in this case, those originally created by the Firaxis artists).
Nonetheless, you have encouraged me to continue with my feeble (and time consuming!) efforts. :D


Its exactly those ceaseless time-consuming efforts that make you worthy ;). The Civ creators started out as "adaptors" and I am very glad to see that such good people stick around after such a long time and come up with countless new and often original ideas! :goodjob:

btw. greet Loughborough on my behalf next time you'd drive by southwards *sigh*

Congratulations Kryten! I agree with Xen fully. Don't be humble -- you are more deserving of any award than most of us, both in creativity, helpfulness, work-rate etc. etc. Keep up the great work, man! :D (Maybe not for "many" future generations. I'm sure 2 or 3 or 4 will suffice :p )

Originally posted by W.i.n.t.e.r

...and in high anticipation of soon-to-come new creations down the same track in the making of Amenhotep7's Peloponnesian War Scenario

Well I'm glad lotsa civvers have been following the "epic":rolleyes: creation of the Peloponnesian War scenario! Kryten, are u gonna stick the u know what hoplite (I wanna keep it semi-secret;) ) here, or open a new thread???

Wery nice ones! :cool: :cooool: :cool:

@jzsf

Stop posting in old threads unless you have more to say than this. You can send your "good job!" messages as personal messages to the authors.

herk derk deee derk derk, is all i can say (it's a great complement)

Don't bump threads with that kind of spam.

I downloaded this when it first came out and i jsut wanted to take the opportunity of this bump to thank you for some great units.

herk derk deee derk derk

Come again?:hmm: