1. I am almost certantly not bying civ 5, no religion, no stacks, no espionage or spy unit, no RFC and I have heard that you need to register with Steam :shifty:.
2. Did you find the unnamed lakes?
Steam isn't bad


Hey edead, we are at 1000 replies and it isn't October yet, maybe we could have a subforum?

Why are Spies limited?

I don't know how others feel about this, but I always thought that the Spy teleporting to the capital after completing a mission was rather unrealistic. Could this be disabled?

In the civics screen the slavery description has ++1 angry face instead of just +1.

Plague in Constantinople after fewer than 5 turns. I presume this is unintentional. To be honest, I haven't read through all 1000 posts, so this could be a known error.

Second question -- why does the Courthouse and Debtor Prison come so late in game? The "City" cathegory is the biggest contributor for Negative Stability, even with the nerf of Fatimid stability penalty. What can i possibly do to increase my "City" stability early in the game? Perhaps Churches could increase stability too?
If stability is that much of an issue early game, give small stability bonus's to alot of diverse buildings. Barracks would get a bit (Military Governor), Walls would get a bit, Market would get a bit, and so on. Churchs would work well also.

Latin Empire: I don't even see why it has to be its own civ. I initialy questioned including Ak Koyunlu because it historicaly lasts only around 100 turns. The Latin Empire would be even more pathetic. I mean, after it took Constantinople and a few surrounding cities along with some land in Greece, did it ever do anything again really?
A bit, but not enough to warrent a new civ.

If stability is that much of an issue early game, give small stability bonus's to alot of diverse buildings. Barracks would get a bit (Military Governor), Walls would get a bit, Market would get a bit, and so on. Churchs would work well also.


Markets already help with the economic rating, don't they? But in general, I agree. Tried the Samanids again today and I collapsed within 6-7 turns after the Seljuk spawn. My stability was hit so hard I could do absolutely nothing about it. So how about +0.5 (is that possible?) - +1 for barracks (or make garrisons in cities not only influence happiness but also stability even more), +0.5-+1 for state religion temple (not for monasteries) and +1-+2 for state religion big temple?

On a different note, I noticed that the description of the slavery civic now reads "++1 unhappiness" - one + too many.

IMO once you pass 90% Piety it should give stability with a bonus at 100%

Markets already help with the economic rating, don't they? But in general, I agree. Tried the Samanids again today and I collapsed within 6-7 turns after the Seljuk spawn.
Considering the Samanids historicaly shouldn't survive past the Kara-Khitai invasion, you are doing pretty good.
(My first try as the Samanids sent me the way of history.)

I think that the fourth crusade should be represented by some venetian barbs (7-8) between Constantinopol and Adrianopol.

Latin Empire: I don't even see why it has to be its own civ. I initialy questioned including Ak Koyunlu because it historicaly lasts only around 100 turns. The Latin Empire would be even more pathetic. I mean, after it took Constantinople and a few surrounding cities along with some land in Greece, did it ever do anything again really?
A bit, but not enough to warrent a new civ.

Please note, that we are not longer supporting a "playable" Latin Empire (and I was never supporting it anyways), the Latin Empire, does not last long, but leaves a lasting imprint on the history of Anatolia. The reason of putting it as a non-playable civ, is so we can control it, to collapse, they would be like the Zengids, (in fact they lived for around the same amount of time), but we would control them to collapse, sort of, and we would have the Byzantines respawn a few turns later as the Empire of Nicea, spawning a capital at Nicea (or Nicea will spawn a few turns earlier), much like the Armenians do right now, when they flip to Cilicia.
On top of that, the Latin Empire, wouldn't even need an LH, they could be a non-contactable civ, if Embryodead wants that.
I think one of the most important things though, is that the Empire of Nicea, would spawn an army later on, with a GG, as their Emperor, to try and recaputre the (programmed) "destabilizing" Latin Empire (Constantinople). With this new vigour, as in history, they would regain a few of their territories, have a flag change, and would be a bit more avant-gard by the time the Ottomans swing into full motion.

By the way, I still if that the Beylik of Karman, is too powerful, and that it needs its respawning spawn zone to SHRINK.

I think that the fourth crusade should be represented by some venetian barbs (7-8) between Constantinopol and Adrianopol.

That would be pointless, as the barbs would get mowed down, and it would be just like the failed (well sort of) Bulgarian invasions.

@Embryodead
Plus creating a new non-playable civ like the Latin Empire, would be easy, as you would just use the PoA, KoJ model, but change the name, and flag, (because the Latin Empire, WAS NOT Venetian Troops, but they were in debited Frankish/Germanic Crusaders). Also of course there would be no UHV or UP to code, so that would make everything simpler as well; and of course we could add in a few Venetian Heavy Infantry, and spark it off as a Military spawn, with the intention of capturing Constationple.

Also, these are a list of civs, which SHOULD get a Military spawn: (correct me if I'm wrong)
Ayyubids----capital originally at Damascus, but army spawns near rebelling Cairo; capital flips to Cairo

Sultanate of Rum --- They should have to besiege their way into Anatolia, rather then spawning a city, which I thought was kind of stupid, and then the surrounding area would flip

Seljuk's ---- Again, should start off with a military spawn, and should try to capture Rayy, rather then just building a city and having everything flip to you. THIS WAS AN NOMADIC INVASION! They should have to capture their capital. (Not as important though, as the others)

Portuguese --- Although they are non-playable, I would like them to capture Goa (either in the hands of Malwa OR as an Independent), rather then just having them spawn the city, or flip it. I think that sounds a lot more just. Currently you do that for them in Oman, so I would recommend having them take by force Goa as well.


PS. Yes, I also think more buildings should provide stability, but NOT a church or holy building. But a barracks and walls, sounds good!

I read that Rayy went into decline after the Mongol invasions, so how about changing the city name to Tahran for the later civs that can own it (Timurids, AK, Safavids)?

And the Mamluks are still too powerful late game. I just tried another start as the Safavids and they were like 1000 pts ahead of everybody else and had already built all the old wonders. I quit when they built TM and Blue Mosque on top of it and sent their vassals AK after me. They need to be nerfed and/or have better competition from Ayyubids, AK and Ottomans.

(EDIT) ok forget what I said. I got the 4 wonders (old ones: Shahnameh is always kinda for free + Spiral Minaret, lucky me; new ones: Shah Mosque (seems to be a safe bet) + Topkapi Palace (beat Mamluks by a couple turns to it) on the second try with a bit luckier spawn. It was still one helluva race with the mamluks which is very likely impossible to win on Caliph. This time, Karamanoglu did not contain the Ottomans at all (quite the contrary), but the Ottomans did not make a move at the Mamluks. They could be more aggressive towards each other, I guess.

@The Turk.
I like the idea of more invasion spawns. E.g. makes it possible to have Iconium and Goa in the game from the start. There are so many 'holes' in the map while you know there's supposed to be a city, just found by a later civ (Samarkand found in 1370 is ridiculous unless a human Khwarezmid founds it earlier).

Please note, that we are not longer supporting a "playable" Latin Empire (and I was never supporting it anyways), the Latin Empire, does not last long, but leaves a lasting imprint on the history of Anatolia. The reason of putting it as a non-playable civ, is so we can control it, to collapse, they would be like the Zengids, (in fact they lived for around the same amount of time), but we would control them to collapse, sort of, and we would have the Byzantines respawn a few turns later as the Empire of Nicea, spawning a capital at Nicea (or Nicea will spawn a few turns earlier), much like the Armenians do right now, when they flip to Cilicia.

What was the lasting imprint?:lol: Zengids were around consirably longer, it seems that you bend the history to fit your personal desires. It is not the first time either...

That would be pointless, as the barbs would get mowed down, and it would be just like the failed (well sort of) Bulgarian invasions.

IMO that idea is better than yours. And as Embryodead stated a while back, he is NOT too keen in making these Latin/Nicaean/Byzantinean spawns and respawns.

@Embryodead
Also of course there would be no UHV or UP to code, so that would make everything simpler as well; and of course we could add in a few Venetian Heavy Infantry, and spark it off as a Military spawn, with the intention of capturing Constationple.

Also, these are a list of civs, which SHOULD get a Military spawn: (correct me if I'm wrong)
Ayyubids----capital originally at Damascus, but army spawns near rebelling Cairo; capital flips to Cairo

Sultanate of Rum --- They should have to besiege their way into Anatolia, rather then spawning a city, which I thought was kind of stupid, and then the surrounding area would flip

Seljuk's ---- Again, should start off with a military spawn, and should try to capture Rayy, rather then just building a city and having everything flip to you. THIS WAS AN NOMADIC INVASION! They should have to capture their capital. (Not as important though, as the others)

The AI is stupid. All these spawns (:crazyeye:) would make the mod really deterministic. When civ spawns they have already taken the cities. That's why they don't conquer them. I rather have my core flip to me than conquer it city by city. Not to mention the endless balancing that this would cause.

What was the lasting imprint?:lol: Zengids were around consirably longer, it seems that you bend the history to fit your personal desires. It is not the first time either...

I think you need to understand, that I research A LOT, I read A LOT, and I don't pull these things out of my ass. If you want to know WHY the Latin Empire left a lasting impact on history, even IF it was only for a short period of time, then ask me, rather then acting cynical.

The reason they left a lasting impact, was once the Venetian "Crusading" Army (they were hardly a Crusade, as they had ALL been excommunicated by the Pope) captured Constantinople, the Empire fractured, in SoI, Trebizond declared independence, and the whole dynasty was sent into exile in Nicea. The Genoans got the boot, and the Venetians, got massive trade concessions. As for the Seljuks, who were in political disray (feuding beyliks), they did not have much of an impact at the time. When Michael VIII ascended to the throne, he immediately, took it upon himself, in trying to recapture the city; which he eventually did, and the Latin Empire crumbled quickly. When Constantinople was first taken, it was already crumbling, with squabbling nobles and an Empire in severe debt and internal strife; but when Michael VIII rose to power, founding a new dynasty, he breathed new life into the Byzantine Empire, and although the ERE was just a shallow representation of its old self, they adopted a new flag, and new vigour, which enabled them to even vassalize the Turkish Seljuk's in the area, who succumbed to the new found power of the Byzantines. I think if it wasn't for the loss of Constationple, the ERE would have collapsed MUCH sooner, but Michael VIII, and his last dynasty were able to breath in new air into the Empire and allowed the Byzantines to survive for another 200 years. That it why the Latin Empire, had such a large influence, it was because they woke up the Empire, to a grave threat, not to mention, started a new Byzantine Golden Age upon the cities recapture.

Not to mention, adding them as a non-playable civ, would be easy, all you would need to do is copy the PoA or KoJ, change the name and flag, and voila! You have a new Empire which spawns at the gates of, before moving on Adrianople to capture Constatinople. So please understand, that no one is asking for a huge new civ, AT ALL. And I have a general feeling, that there are a lot of people who would be for this plan, if they knew if it was possible; which is most definitely is.

If you want to check for yourself listen to Lars Brownworth's "12 Byzantine Rulers" podcast (I think either the 10 or 11 Emperor), or (and better yet), read his book, "Lost to the West: The Byzantine Civilization which saved Western Civilization)

The AI is stupid. All these spawns (:crazyeye:) would make the mod really deterministic. When civ spawns they have already taken the cities. That's why they don't conquer them. I rather have my core flip to me than conquer it city by city. Not to mention the endless balancing that this would cause.
It worked pretty well with the KoJ and PoA, you don't need to be so defeatist and pessimistic. Balancing is not that big of an issue, as even I can do it!

@Embryodead
I would consider reducing the amount of Bulgarian units you spawn against the Byzantines, except when showing Khan Krum (then you can have an influx), but during peace times, there shouldn't be TOO many Bulgarian warriors crossing over the frontier. Also have you considered changing the Bulgarian Barb texture art?

Stupid Civ5 won't let me read/post today.

If you look at the whole map, Buyids were far more significant by conquering the Abbasid Caliphate and creating a large empire that lasted 120 years. Same with Ilkhanate. Adding new civs is not just "copying" some XML entries, it's a lot of work in Python, DLL, WBS and it adds more bloat to the mod. I'm sorry but I don't feel it's worth those 60 or so years on the edge of the map.

Jusos is right about Military Spawns - the crusaders are spoon fed so that the AI doesn't fail it - most defenders are removed, fortifications are put down by revolt - and then it's not really a military spawn because the remaining cities flip normally - otherwise the AI would struggle with conquering them for the next 50 years, go for other cities, or not attack at all. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I've read the stuff about stability, civics etc. Low city stability comes from religions. +1 Stability from state religion temples makes sense, and temples are borderline useless atm, I don't even build them unless I need to because of UHV. As for the spikes - I don't know, personally I don't see them. Since SoI uses provinces, the expansion stability calculations are different as well. Grabbing a new city with varied religions lowers both city & expansion stability considerably.

I'd like to know whether it is a general rule that you won't have (re)spawns in your territory if you're stability is good. I played Rûm for the second time around and unlike the first time, the Ottomans did not appear at all, even though Prousa was independent (founded by Byzantines).

In a way I also succeeded in 'squatting out' the Ak Koyunlu by founding Cabakcur in Lesser Armenia two spots away from Diyarbakir. The AK then started out in Musul and my city did not even flip. Saved me the trouble of dislodging them late game. It may be possible to squat out the Ghorids, too, by founding the Ghaznavid capital on the copper thereabouts.

I share author's feeling about the temples. Another question -- Does Piety affect Stability at all?

P.S. Civ V uses the same music for Persia as SoI late in game... :)

Why are you so shure that the barbs are doomed? If 10 Barbarians spawn next to Constantinopol and 5 next to Adrianopol and each city only has 2 defenders then the barbs have a okay chance (and the AI rarely has many defenders there). Also PLEASE add the Buyids at least as a non playable civ...
Also my unanswered and updated minor suggestions:
1: Fairgrounds should use the venilla BTS market soundtrack
2: A rebel city in Bahrain with Sunni Islam and Zoarastrionism.
3: Did you find the unnamed lakes?
4:Maybe the Muslim Barbs that attackIndia should have Islamic Missionaries attached?
5:The Bedouin and Hashid barbs should have the desert adapted promotion.

PS: The Byzyntines are not going to collapse because they still will hold the title of Roman Emperor until they are either destroyed or vassalized by another civ that meets the requierments. However that does not stop us from giving them a GG if they loos constantinopol.

Does Piety affect Stability at all?
Yes, high piety increeses stability.

Why are you so shure that the barbs are doomed? If 10 Barbarians spawn next to Constantinopol and 5 next to Adrianopol and each city only has 2 defenders then the barbs have a okay chance (and the AI rarely has many defenders there). Also PLEASE add the Buyids at least as a non playable civ...
Also my unanswered and updated minor suggestions:
1: Fairgrounds should use the venilla BTS market soundtrack
2: A rebel city in Bahrain with Sunni Islam and Zoarastrionism.
3: Did you find the unnamed lakes?
4:Maybe the Muslim Barbs that attackIndia should have Islamic Missionaries attached?
5:The Bedouin and Hashid barbs should have the desert adapted promotion.

PS: The Byzyntines are not going to collapse because they still will hold the title of Roman Emperor until they are either destroyed or vassalized by another civ that meets the requierments. However that does not stop us from giving them a GG if they loos constantinopol.

1: Don't care, but yes the soundtrack would be nice for it
2. Bahrain, was a desert wasteland, until oil was discovered, if you REALLY want to have a city there, then you can build it yourself
3: Yes, those lakes really need to be named, there is one west of Baghdad
4: Ummm.... Sounds ok I guess, but I think it would need obviously Embryodead's approval, and then quite a bit testing. But not bad of an idea
5. Could not agree more (but I thought they already do???)


@Everyone
Since I realize I do not run this show, and under a lot of pressure, I will bow to the inevitable. If you REALLY don't want to make the Latin Empire, then I guess having a bunch of barbs spawn near Adrianople, called "The 4th Crusade", WITH a proper event, I think it should be fine. Also I guess, if Constationple is taken by barbs, you can code it so that they respawn as the Empire of Nicea, and later will spawn with a GG to recapture it. I guess that sounds good as well:rolleyes:

Moving on....
Tsar Simeon's Army looks pathetic IMO. I like how you did the GG (although I would still of course recommend a texture change to the RFC Europe Bulgarian units), but instead of spawning him, with JUST his unit, having a proper event pop up, and a STACK of units, spawn would look a lot more professional, then just scattering them all about. Also I would recommend adding more horsemen to his army, and no javilenmen (those guys are ridiculous, for the army of Tsar Simeon)
And as I said before, if you could decrease the amount of Bulgarian spawns before hand, that would be good, because before Simeon, there was a long peace. But when you have Khan Krum spawn (not represented; but in spirit ;) ), I would recommend therefore just having a large influx of Bulgarian barbs.

Do the Mughals and the Safavids both start with Military Drill?

:(

Safvids don't. Its taking me flipping forever to research it because I got in a war with Ak Koyunlu and the Timuids and either the Seljuks or the Mongols decided to raze every improvement possible in Iran. Thankfully Georgia collapsed so I was able to steal their land at the cost of two Qizilbashi HA. I'm not sure about the Mughals though.

Do the Mughals and the Safavids both start with Military Drill?

:(

I could've researched it before they spawned if I had known about it, but since I didn't I decided to go for the free labor tech and the Heavy Cavalry tech. However, I had to spend a number of turns on 100% culture to get that Iron in Lesser Armenia away from the Ak Konyulu since the only other way to get iron is by building Adrianopolis which to me doesn't look like a good city. I haven't owned it however so I may be wrong.

I find that Iron is the most important resource in the game. If you don't want Adrianopolis you have to take Sivas before the Byzantines collapse otherwise it'll flip to Beylik, and I don't think you can defeat Beylik and still get Matchlock before the Portuguese spawn. By going for Matchlock from the beginning I got it in the 1470's with this setup. I'm no city placement expert, but it seemed like the best way to use Anatolia to me. All the cities were founded by AI except Brusa, which I got lucky with since the AI usually founds it 1 north which conflicts with Constantinople and doesn't get you the southern cotton and pig. I only had to raze three cities. Two on the western coast of Anatolia were razed because they overlapped with Brusa and the city between Sinop and Sivas on the coast since it didn't look good and I already had a city in Pontus with Sinop.

http://imgur.com/FtOw8.jpg
http://imgur.com/QTrE3.jpg
http://imgur.com/1IXYf.jpg
http://imgur.com/h6vQq.jpg

My civics were Aristocracy/Religious Law/Serfdom/Decentralization/Organized Religion, but when I traded for the Market Economy tech I switched to that. After I got Matchlock and the free labor tech I started building up my forces so I switched to Vassalage for the free units and Free Labor. When war started I switched to Empire/Meritocracy.

While I was still building my war machine Beylik declared war, so I razed Konya and the city east of it and they collapsed. While this was going on the Mamluks took Antioch from Cilicia and capitulated them. They also had Ak Konyulu as a voluntary vassal. When I was ready I declared war, razed the Cilician capital, then took Antioch. A few turns into it Ak Konyulu unvassalized so I was able to sign a peace treaty with them after killing a Marksman. I kept the Cilician city that's 2 W and 1 S of the wheat and razed the city west of that, hoping Cilicia would collapse. They stayed in the game for a long time however, but never bothered me. I took Tripoli but got holed up there. I tried to take Damacus by sending Heavy Lancers a row deep, plus Great Bombards and some Heavy Infantry to protect against spearmen, but the Mamluks had so many units that the lancers took too much damage. I wouldn't have been able to hold on to both cities so I waited until I got Heavy Cavalry and that turned the tide. It's 1585 and I just took Gaza and Jerusalem.

Ottomans are fun but are such a huge timesink that I don't think I'll be playing them again. I don't know if I'll continue this game since the UHV is failed due to Military Drill.

It was quite fun having massive battles with the Mamluks.

1: Don't care, but yes the soundtrack would be nice for it
2. Bahrain, was a desert wasteland, until oil was discovered, if you REALLY want to have a city there, then you can build it yourself
3: Yes, those lakes really need to be named, there is one west of Baghdad
4: Ummm.... Sounds ok I guess, but I think it would need obviously Embryodead's approval, and then quite a bit testing. But not bad of an idea
5. Could not agree more (but I thought they already do???)

I do not care that much about Bahrain, in fact, I have changed my mind, there was never that much happening there.

Important exploit possibility observed: when human player agrees on flip but currently is at war with newborn AI Civ, those cities do not get any defenders created there. So basically if human player prepares for Rum spawn, for example, he can just move all the units out of the flip cities, and reconquer them next turn without resistance. Perhaps some automatic defenders could be created everytime human player tryies to avoid fighting lots of AI units and let his cities flip.

I was playing a game as the Ayyubids, and everything was going well, I was ONLY losing -2 stability, and my piety was "righteous" (+60), and STILL the Mamluks spawned!! Why though? They should only spawn if you are losing a lot of stability!

I'm pretty sure Mamluks always spawn when Ayyubids are around. Regardless, -2 stability and 60 piety isn't that great. Even in normal RFC you can have respawns at -2 stability.

Found a unnamed lake, not shure if it was the one I found before in Persia...

Here is the screenshot:

Mamluks are irritating when you play as Ayyubids. They kicked me out of Egypt, so I got the Levant and Hejaz to play with. You still have the resources necessary to survive, but without Egypt, your economy is terrible and you won't be able to keep up in the tech race.

Georgian for Trabzon is Trapizoni (T'rap'izoni)
It probably would make more sense to name Tbilisi Tp'ilisi which was the official form until 1936
Kars → Qarsi

Yes the Mamluks are annoying, and if they are going to take over your capital and core province, they should ONLY spawn if you are very unstable. Think about it, the Mamluks came to power after overthrowing their weak overlords, therefore they should only spawn if the present Egyptian civ is weak. As for the Ayyubids, they should, spawn whether the Fatimid's are weak or not, as they conquered the civ externally, rather then exploiting a weakness per se.

Also a suggestion for Jazari's Workshop World Wonder, instead of getting +4 relationship boost with a certain civ, if you choose the elephant clock, I would suggest it increasing production, since clocks, would increase the production of the cities workers, (think about it for a bit, it makes sense, you do more work if you know the time), also I got this from RoM, where the townclock building increases production as well. So I think that would be better than increasing relationship with a random civ. So I would strongly suggest changing it if you cannot explain why you had the Elephant Clock increasing relationship's between civs.

Also I was looking at the Timurds and I realized two things:
1. Why is their capital often changed to Herat? I don't remember the Timurd capital EVER being Herat historically

2. Why did you change the Timurd worker, to a worker with blonde hair, and European looking clothing? I really don't understand this one. Could this be a possible bug? Seems unlikely though.....

@MessageMan

Thanks for the Ottoman report. I tried playing as them several times and it is indeed a long game, but I feel that it's good, because too many civs can be won very quickly. Iron usage should be possibly reduced further, but there isn't much left to make iron-free: heavy cavalry, heavy infantry and heavy spearmen.

I think that no one has won historical victory as Ottomans yet, so I may need to check the techs again, although I remember doing the first part at least by doing only needed techs, just didn't continue on the conquest.

Important exploit possibility observed: when human player agrees on flip but currently is at war with newborn AI Civ, those cities do not get any defenders created there. So basically if human player prepares for Rum spawn, for example, he can just move all the units out of the flip cities, and reconquer them next turn without resistance. Perhaps some automatic defenders could be created everytime human player tryies to avoid fighting lots of AI units and let his cities flip.

Well is it really a problem? Because, you could just not agree to the flip. Unit betrayal works either way. We discussed before that this makes the whole choice of flip-or-not-to-flip a bit ackward in case of flip+war, but I don't have any solution yet.

1: Fairgrounds should use the venilla BTS market soundtrack
2: A rebel city in Bahrain with Sunni Islam and Zoarastrionism.
3: Did you find the unnamed lakes?
4:Maybe the Muslim Barbs that attackIndia should have Islamic Missionaries attached?
5:The Bedouin and Hashid barbs should have the desert adapted promotion.

1. I checked, and they already do?
2. There was a Qarmatian kingdom there, but it doesn't deserve to have a city any more than other places really.
3. Yes, both in Persia and Mesopotamia, thanks.
4. Islam spreads to India in other ways, and frankly I don't even see barbs capturing anything there.
5. Will do.

I was playing a game as the Ayyubids, and everything was going well, I was ONLY losing -2 stability, and my piety was "righteous" (+60), and STILL the Mamluks spawned!! Why though? They should only spawn if you are losing a lot of stability!

-2 Stability is bad - it doesn't prevent resurrection even in normal RFC. Mamluks, however, spawn always. Note that they do so after you complete 2/3 UHVs, and you don't need Egypt to complete the third. You're (historically) banished to Syria where you basically just need to survive a while longer.

Also a suggestion for Jazari's Workshop World Wonder, instead of getting +4 relationship boost with a certain civ, if you choose the elephant clock, I would suggest it increasing production, since clocks, would increase the production of the cities workers, (think about it for a bit, it makes sense, you do more work if you know the time), also I got this from RoM, where the townclock building increases production as well. So I think that would be better than increasing relationship with a random civ. So I would strongly suggest changing it if you cannot explain why you had the Elephant Clock increasing relationship's between civs.

But I can explain it :p Al-Jazari didn't invent clocks per say, and Elephant Clock is rather useless as a clock, especially townclock. Jazari made the first robots, and elephant clock is one. Here's his sketch (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Al-Jazari_Automata_Elephant-Clock_1315.jpg) and a modern replica (http://www.muslimheritage.com/uploads/elephant_clock_in_Dubai.JPG). It's really wicked... it was basically a several meters high robot that included an African elephant, a Chinese Dragon, an Egyptian Phoenix and some Arab, Greek and Turk passengers. All the elements moved depending on the hour, powered by water. So, it's not a townlock, but a moving multicultural sculpture (helping myself with wikipedia here ;) )

Also I was looking at the Timurds and I realized two things:
1. Why is their capital often changed to Herat? I don't remember the Timurd capital EVER being Herat historically

It was moved to Herat immediately after Timur's death by Shah Rukh, and was the capital for the next 50 or so years. After that, the empire was divided and had two opposing rulers and capitals - Samarkand for Khwarezmia and Herat for Persia.

2. Why did you change the Timurd worker, to a worker with blonde hair, and European looking clothing? I really don't understand this one. Could this be a possible bug? Seems unlikely though.....

It was like that from the beginning, those are Slavic slaves ;) (not really sure if they used Slavs, or just other Turks as slaves, probably both)

Agrarianism which supposedly sucks(?) is way too good without health penalty. It's really +2 to +6 commerce per city. Depends on the civ, but it's usually more than you get from Market Economy or Merchant Capitalism.

Should the stability guide etc. be general like the one MessageMan posted, or detailed, for all the spreadsheeters? ;)

What I was saying is that human player should not be able to butcher new civ in 2-3 turns after they spawn.

When you don't agree on flip -- it's like YOU start the war (which was already in place) -- and AI gets massive bonus units, plus your units deflect to AI.

When you agree on flip AI gets EMPTY (prepared by human player) cities, and no bonuses so human player can get his cities back next turn and finish up with the new born civ.

Here is an example how AI "protects" his capital and how defenseless the flipped cities look:

The problem with AI leaving the capital empty on the 1st turn exists in RFCE as well, so it must come from the original RFC. Don't know how to fix that. Defection works whether you agree or not, but you're right about the bonus units though, that does make a difference. I'll generate garrisons for flipped cities, say 1 archer + 1 spearman type, if they have less than 2.

@MessageMan

Thanks for the Ottoman report. I tried playing as them several times and it is indeed a long game, but I feel that it's good, because too many civs can be won very quickly. Iron usage should be possibly reduced further, but there isn't much left to make iron-free: heavy cavalry, heavy infantry and heavy spearmen.

I think that no one has won historical victory as Ottomans yet, so I may need to check the techs again, although I remember doing the first part at least by doing only needed techs, just didn't continue on the conquest.


I don't think it's possible to research all the techs first then conquer everything by 1660. Under ideal conditions I only got Matchlock with ~30 years to spare. I don't even think you can get to Flintlock by 1660, since that requires Chemistry and Professional Armies IIRC. And that doesn't take into account Heavy Lancer tech -> Military Drill.

The way it works now I feel like I have to beeline Matchlock. By the time I get it every single building should be built in most of your cities, except Tannery/Drydock, and possibly Archery Range.

As an aside, Byzantium has bad production, so it never gets finished unless you're lucky enough to build Kizi Kule in it. Probably should try to spawn a Great Engineer from the start to build it there.

Anyways, by the time you get Matchlock you'll have some cities with nothing to build, so build some Great Bombards. Keep doing this until you get the heavy lancer tech, then start building up your army to conquer.

I think Military Drill needs to be beelined. Then you can research other important techs and Flintlock can wait until you're done with the other UHV's.

I don't know if that's how you intended an Ottoman game to occur, but that's the way I see it happening.

And why is the Levant not a border province for the Ottomans?

And why is Palestine not a border province for the Ottomans?

Because I forgot about it, probably ;)

I went for Military Drill first because it's the first one that appears when new civs spawn. I'm playing as Ottomans right now, will say more later.

Because I forgot about it, probably ;)

I went for Military Drill first because it's the first one that appears when new civs spawn. I'm playing as Ottomans right now, will say more later.

The whole Levant is not a border province. Same with Hejaz and Georgia, but I'm not sure if the last two are supposed to be.

Which one spawns with Military Drill?

The whole Levant is not a border province. Same with Hejaz and Georgia, but I'm not sure if the last two are supposed to be.

Which one spawns with Military Drill?

Actually no one, I forgot I removed it. So it's only Portugal w/Matchlock...

EDIT: Also, last time I used espionage to steal some techs

I added Northern Syria, Syria, Palestine and Hejaz to Ottomans.

Actually no one, I forgot I removed it. So it's only Portugal w/Matchlock...

EDIT: Also, last time I used espionage to steal some techs

I added Northern Syria, Syria, Palestine and Hejaz to Ottomans.

What about Transjordan?

I don't think you can steal Chemistry/Matchlock because nobody researches it that early. The heavy lancer tech is really expensive and I'm not sure if you can steal it even with a Great Spy. Mamluks are usually the only one with this.

I usually trade for the non-essential techs. All the UHV-essential techs I research myself.

What's your city set-up? Was Brusa pre-built?

OK, so first UHV is easy if done in correct order, and by stealing techs - focusing on Mamluks and adding 1 Great Spy got me both Blast Furnance & Chemistry (not essential, but why not), without extra spending. As for the Conquest I'll have to try again because of multiple f-ups and bad luck, like getting hit by plague and Ayyubid DoW+SoD at the same time, which made me lose cities and delay the conquest of Constantinople until 1440 or so.

I built Bursa on the spot, I like Izmir as it's usually well-developed and it's the best city you get until Constantinople or Ankara develops, but I never tried razing it tbh. I razed Abydos, Amisus (bad idea actually, UHV), Samsun, Alaiye, Konya, kept the rest, including Edirne.

Playing Byzantium on Caliph, and stole :espionage: every tech I could steal from newborn civs, getting crazy discounts due to spending (50%). Was a good idea to nerf brothels. Right now things are more or less balanced, I mean if you remove change civics from the missions list. Abbasids where very cheap at the begining, but now did some counter-espionage, I guess, since I cannot afford to steal anything from them anymore.

A word about Den of Spies -- was it something historicaly common? How about using Bureau_of_Barbarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Barbarians) instead? Then you could rename brpthels to den of spies and close this most famous linguistic controversy of SoI :lol:

Bureau of Barbarians was a single institution of one Empire, and even the article suggests it wasn't used for espionage. Den of Spies is at least very general.

Your report seems to suggest 15% off Brothels wasn't enough of a nerf though :p You sure civic change can't be just made more expensive?

OK, so first UHV is easy if done in correct order, and by stealing techs - focusing on Mamluks and adding 1 Great Spy got me both Blast Furnance & Chemistry (not essential, but why not), without extra spending. As for the Conquest I'll have to try again because of multiple f-ups and bad luck, like getting hit by plague and Ayyubid DoW+SoD at the same time, which made me lose cities and delay the conquest of Constantinople until 1440 or so.

I built Bursa on the spot, I like Izmir as it's usually well-developed and it's the best city you get until Constantinople or Ankara develops, but I never tried razing it tbh. I razed Abydos, Amisus (bad idea actually, UHV), Samsun, Alaiye, Konya, kept the rest, including Edirne.

Hmm. In my game Mamluks didn't have Blast Furnace until I had researched it. The Ayyubids were dead and the Mamluks owned all the Levant except Antioch.

When'd you get Matchlock?

I usually take Constantinople from the start.

I don't know about keeping Izmir. I personally like a more powerful Bursa/Constantinople. That and you don't take the financial hit from having another city.

When did you defeat Karaman?

Matchlock after Black Powder. I killed Karaman early, before taking Constantinople, as Byzantines stacked about 20 units in the city with 200% def, so I waited till most of them died from the plague. Still, not the best move, the shrine gold from Constantinople is a must to get the economy rolling.

Matchlock after Black Powder. I killed Karaman early, before taking Constantinople, as Byzantines stacked about 20 units in the city with 200% def, so I waited till most of them died from the plague. Still, not the best move, the shrine gold from Constantinople is a must to get the economy rolling.

I meant the date for Matchlock.

Were the units in Constantinople mostly mercenaries? I find it only has a couple units as long as you either hire all the mercenaries yourself or take it before their mercenaries have a chance to arrive.

I think there is an issue with a corrupted dll file in the .2.6 7z download.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=264831&stc=1&d=1285287065
How has everybody else dled the mod?
Through the exe?

EDIT: When I tried to dl the exe, rather than getting an error message, it just doesn't appear on my comp. At all.

People are playing it so I assume it works - exe may have to do with your anti-vir, as you said. As for the 7-zip, try unzipping it with the latest version of 7-zip (9.16 beta, not 4.65), this fixed the broken archive problem that MessageMan had.

Responce to Embryodead's Responce's:

@MessageMan

Thanks for the Ottoman report. I tried playing as them several times and it is indeed a long game, but I feel that it's good, because too many civs can be won very quickly. Iron usage should be possibly reduced further, but there isn't much left to make iron-free: heavy cavalry, heavy infantry and heavy spearmen.

I think that no one has won historical victory as Ottomans yet, so I may need to check the techs again, although I remember doing the first part at least by doing only needed techs, just didn't continue on the conquest.

The thing is, is that for the most powerful Empires in the Middle East, for the late game, they are very weak in this game. I never see them expanding outside of Anatolia, and if they DO capture all of Anatolia, then thats really an excellent exception, because usually they are confined to Western Turkey, where they are pushed around by the Byzantines and Kerman. I think you really need to give them a leg up against the Seljuks especially, by perhaps adding 1-2 more units for their start, and by easing their technology rate by a by a bit. I would also strongly recommend moving the iron source near Adrianople, to between Constantinople and Bursa, that way, when the Byzantines would have a hold on it (and a better hold on it, since it wouldn't be constantly pillaged by Bulgarians), and then when the Ottomans spring up, they can have the ability to capture the iron source for themselves, which would greatly aid them. I understand this would take some testing, so I will try it out for myself, but I would strongly encourage you to try it for yourself as well, as I think having iron can make all the difference, for the Human AND AI.


2. There was a Qarmatian kingdom there, but it doesn't deserve to have a city any more than other places really.
3. Yes, both in Persia and Mesopotamia, thanks.

2. Well, if there was a kingdom in Bahrain at the time, (which I had no idea about), then I was strongly suggest then, adding a city, with a few troops, not to mention it could spice up events in the Gulf ;)
3. Yay! Great, I'm happy you found them! Now onto naming the rivers? :lol:


-2 Stability is bad - it doesn't prevent resurrection even in normal RFC. Mamluks, however, spawn always. Note that they do so after you complete 2/3 UHVs, and you don't need Egypt to complete the third. You're (historically) banished to Syria where you basically just need to survive a while longer.

Ok, the thing is that, fine -2 can be bad (by the way, when I started my Ayyubid game, I had -40 stability, just like that :eek:!), but it should be worse then that, for them to spawn. I yes I realized they spawn no matter what, but take a look at what I wrote back:
Yes the Mamluks are annoying, and if they are going to take over your capital and core province, they should ONLY spawn if you are very unstable. Think about it, the Mamluks came to power after overthrowing their weak overlords, therefore they should only spawn if the present Egyptian civ is weak. As for the Ayyubids, they should, spawn whether the Fatimid's are weak or not, as they conquered the civ externally, rather then exploiting a weakness per se.
I think this way would be more historical, and a lot better, for everyone.

But I can explain it :p Al-Jazari didn't invent clocks per say, and Elephant Clock is rather useless as a clock, especially townclock. Jazari made the first robots, and elephant clock is one. Here's his sketch (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Al-Jazari_Automata_Elephant-Clock_1315.jpg) and a modern replica (http://www.muslimheritage.com/uploads/elephant_clock_in_Dubai.JPG). It's really wicked... it was basically a several meters high robot that included an African elephant, a Chinese Dragon, an Egyptian Phoenix and some Arab, Greek and Turk passengers. All the elements moved depending on the hour, powered by water. So, it's not a townlock, but a moving multicultural sculpture (helping myself with wikipedia here ;) )

Ok, well I know what the Elephant Clock is, but you still haven't explained why the elephant clock should give a boost in relations with a random leader? I think since giving a boost with a random leader, still does not make sense, it makes a lot more sense therefore to have them get a production boost as instead, as again, it was a nominal clock.


It was like that from the beginning, those are Slavic slaves ;) (not really sure if they used Slavs, or just other Turks as slaves, probably both)
Ok..... So can you change it back to the regular Turkish slaves, like everyone else has :crazyeye:


Agrarianism which supposedly sucks(?) is way too good without health penalty. It's really +2 to +6 commerce per city. Depends on the civ, but it's usually more than you get from Market Economy or Merchant Capitalism.
Agrarianism is great! Its actually the civic I use all the time, and sometimes for the entire game too! I think IF ANYTHING Market Economy and Merchant Capitalism need to get a leg up. Perhaps giving Market Economy +1 trade routes in 5 biggest cities would be a good idea as well.

Should the stability guide etc. be general like the one MessageMan posted, or detailed, for all the spreadsheeters? ;)
Oh great, your making the stability guide! :goodjob:
I would make it as detailed as possible, that way, there will not be as many stability centered questions anymore, ya, that would be great if you could do that, thanks!


I added Northern Syria, Syria, Palestine and Hejaz to Ottomans.
Finally! ;)
Well can you also add, Lower Egypt, Armenia, Georgia (if its not there yet), and Mesopotamia? Thanks!:)

OK, so first UHV is easy if done in correct order, and by stealing techs - focusing on Mamluks and adding 1 Great Spy got me both Blast Furnance & Chemistry (not essential, but why not), without extra spending. As for the Conquest I'll have to try again because of multiple f-ups and bad luck, like getting hit by plague and Ayyubid DoW+SoD at the same time, which made me lose cities and delay the conquest of Constantinople until 1440 or so.

I built Bursa on the spot, I like Izmir as it's usually well-developed and it's the best city you get until Constantinople or Ankara develops, but I never tried razing it tbh. I razed Abydos, Amisus (bad idea actually, UHV), Samsun, Alaiye, Konya, kept the rest, including Edirne.
Ok, well Embryodead, not everyone is as a great of a player as you are, I personally can never finish their UHV's, and just because you and a few others can, doesn't mean the bulk majority can finish their UHV's, their just too hard, and on top of that you have to steam roll over the Seljuks (which actually for the human, isn't too bad), but then you have an epic war with the Mamluks (and sometimes Ak Koyonlu) for supremacy of the Levant, and that can drag on FOREVERR.....
And the tech rate for the Turks, is just horrible!

And the tech rate for the Turks, is just horrible!

I agree. I was playing as KoJ, seeing how long I could last with their realistically terrible tech rate. To my disappointment, the Ottomans never really did anything outside of Western Turkey. Even the Byzantines had a lead on them. The Mamluks also are not threatening beyond their initial stack. After defeating that, they send waves of marksmen at me. But the Ottomans do deserve a better tech rate.

The thing is, is that for the most powerful Empires in the Middle East, for the late game, they are very weak in this game. I never see them expanding outside of Anatolia, and if they DO capture all of Anatolia, then thats really an excellent exception, because usually they are confined to Western Turkey, where they are pushed around by the Byzantines and Kerman. I think you really need to give them a leg up against the Seljuks especially, by perhaps adding 1-2 more units for their start, and by easing their technology rate by a by a bit. I would also strongly recommend moving the iron source near Adrianople, to between Constantinople and Bursa, that way, when the Byzantines would have a hold on it (and a better hold on it, since it wouldn't be constantly pillaged by Bulgarians), and then when the Ottomans spring up, they can have the ability to capture the iron source for themselves, which would greatly aid them. I understand this would take some testing, so I will try it out for myself, but I would strongly encourage you to try it for yourself as well, as I think having iron can make all the difference, for the Human AND AI.

By Seljuks I assume you mean Karaman? The Seljuks get destroyed by the Mongols and even if they were alive the Ottomans wouldn't fight them that much.

Anyways, I don't know if it's the tech rate that's keeping them back rather than not having Iron. Heavy Horse Archers just don't cut it vs. Marksmen + Castles. You need Iron if you're going to conquer a lot of territory in the late game.

Ok, well Embryodead, not everyone is as a great of a player as you are, I personally can never finish their UHV's, and just because you and a few others can, doesn't mean the bulk majority can finish their UHV's, their just too hard, and on top of that you have to steam roll over the Seljuks (which actually for the human, isn't too bad), but then you have an epic war with the Mamluks (and sometimes Ak Koyonlu) for supremacy of the Levant, and that can drag on FOREVERR.....
And the tech rate for the Turks, is just horrible!

How do you know you're amongst the majority? There's only been about 4 people including embryodead that have even posted about Ottoman tech rate. :undecide:

Perhaps you are, but there hasn't been much discussion about it in the first place.

Ok, the thing is that, fine -2 can be bad (by the way, when I started my Ayyubid game, I had -40 stability, just like that :eek:!), but it should be worse then that, for them to spawn. I yes I realized they spawn no matter what, but take a look at what I wrote back:

I think this way would be more historical, and a lot better, for everyone.

I agree that Mamluks shouldn't always spawn. Why would the Mamluks revolt if the Ayyubid sultan was in firm control of his empire? But anything less than stable should allow for a spawn.

Agrarianism is great! Its actually the civic I use all the time, and sometimes for the entire game too! I think IF ANYTHING Market Economy and Merchant Capitalism need to get a leg up. Perhaps giving Market Economy +1 trade routes in 5 biggest cities would be a good idea as well.


Maybe it's because I overvalue specialists, but I think Market Economy is pretty good already, and maybe even a bit overpowered.


Oh great, your making the stability guide! :goodjob:
I would make it as detailed as possible, that way, there will not be as many stability centered questions anymore, ya, that would be great if you could do that, thanks!



Go look at Stability.py. I don't know Python at all and I was able to understand it. Embryo laid it out very nicely and it's easy to read. He doesn't have a lot of free time and I'd rather have him spend time on coding rather than something people can do for themselves.

People are playing it so I assume it works - exe may have to do with your anti-vir, as you said. As for the 7-zip, try unzipping it with the latest version of 7-zip (9.16 beta, not 4.65), this fixed the broken archive problem that MessageMan had.
Thanks. I'll get back to you on how well that turns out.

Bureau of Barbarians was a single institution of one Empire, and even the article suggests it wasn't used for espionage. Den of Spies is at least very general.

Your report seems to suggest 15% off Brothels wasn't enough of a nerf though :p You sure civic change can't be just made more expensive?

The real issue is that I was spending on :espionage: from the very start whereas new civs start from the scratch, so I always have spending advantage and a big discount. I do not even have Asymmetric Warfare yet, but can focus on Mumeluks and keep stealing all the important techs.

By the way I have killed Ottomans even easier than Rum. After I killed Rum's initial stack at Iconium (and took Iconium) Rum got second stack with Ghazies near Sebastia. Ottomans got just one initial stack, took empty Izmir as their capital and were annihilated few turns later.

Is it possible to code it so that for the first 10 turns newborn civ gets impassable cultural shield, so that one cannot attack their territory?

By Seljuks I assume you mean Karaman? The Seljuks get destroyed by the Mongols and even if they were alive the Ottomans wouldn't fight them that much.

Anyways, I don't know if it's the tech rate that's keeping them back rather than not having Iron. Heavy Horse Archers just don't cut it vs. Marksmen + Castles. You need Iron if you're going to conquer a lot of territory in the late game.

Yes sorry for not specifying, by Seljuks, I mean Karaman (who are actually the Sultanate of Rum rather), but yes Karaman for sure is too powerful. And yes, I agree with you, to capture cities, you definitely need to have some iron handy. Thats why moving it would be a good idea, I'm testing out my theory right now, by moving the iron source near Constationple (on the Asia side)


How do you know you're amongst the majority? There's only been about 4 people including embryodead that have even posted about Ottoman tech rate. :undecide:

Perhaps you are, but there hasn't been much discussion about it in the first place.

Well I thought I was the majority, have YOU been able to finish the Ottoman UHV on Sultan (the middle difficulty)? How about anyone else, have you been able to? Now days I'm more into just playing/having fun with the game, then actually trying to beat the UHV's.


I agree that Mamluks shouldn't always spawn. Why would the Mamluks revolt if the Ayyubid sultan was in firm control of his empire? But anything less than stable should allow for a spawn.

Exactly! :king:
It should be flipped, Shurku/ Saladin, would have invaded Fatimid Egypt, regardless of its stability (or at least it wouldn't have been as great a factor), but the Mamluks saw that the Ayyubids were crumbling, and decided to go for it, and rose up in revolt. Overall I think this makes a lot more sense. This is also why I recommended having the Ayyubids start off as a military spawn.


Maybe it's because I overvalue specialists, but I think Market Economy is pretty good already, and maybe even a bit overpowered.
Well, I was thinking that you could perhaps have +1 free specialist and +1 extra trade route for your top 5-6 biggest cities, I think if anything that makes more sense, doesn't it? I think it would balance things out.


Go look at Stability.py. I don't know Python at all and I was able to understand it. Embryo laid it out very nicely and it's easy to read. He doesn't have a lot of free time and I'd rather have him spend time on coding rather than something people can do for themselves.
Embyrodead is offering to do this himself, and for his long term goals, has specifically mentioned that he wants to formalize the civic stability, and put it on the civiliopedia and elsewhere. Because I don't think you want to continue saying the same thing, "go look at the Stability.py file", every single time a new player shows up. Trying to make this game as professional as possible (ie. All civilopedia texts filled in, no more bugs, balanced game), is what Embryodead is aiming for right now. And please Embryodead correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is what he wants to do right now, especially as he moves on to releasing his v1.0 game.



By the way I have killed Ottomans even easier than Rum. After I killed Rum's initial stack at Iconium (and took Iconium) Rum got second stack with Ghazies near Sebastia. Ottomans got just one initial stack, took empty Izmir as their capital and were annihilated few turns later.

Is it possible to code it so that for the first 10 turns newborn civ gets impassable cultural shield, so that one cannot attack their territory?

I have done the same as the Byzantines, and have been able to kill of the Sultanate of Rum, which was fairly hard, as it took me a while, but when the Ottomans spawned, I was able to finish them off really easily, and without much of a hassle. Not to mention, this was before you added the iron resource for them, so that goes to show how easy they are to kill off.

As for your second suggestion, about impenetrable culture shield, I have to say Tigranes, its not one of your better ideas, you've come up with a lot better ones in the past. Its funny that you have such a problem with civs being annihilated at the beginning, because this has never really been a problem for me (except for the Mughals, but that has allegedly been fixed; haven't tried them yet though); so I personally don't feel its that big of a problem. And anyways, any player should have good instinct to know, not to buzz kill any spawning civ, I know I wouldn't, because that just ruins the game IMO. But basically I'm against the idea of impenetrable 10 turn cultural shields......

Impassible cultural shields would make the game too deterministic. I'm a big fan of open-ended gameplay, and if you can't change history by having an organized military when the Turks show up, what's the point? You're here to stand the test of time, after all, not get defeated. Well, normally that's the case.

And Beylik of Karaman, or whatever the Rum re-spawn is called, is a little too powerful. They're one of the top Civs in my most recent game.

Impassible cultural shields would make the game too deterministic. I'm a big fan of open-ended gameplay, and if you can't change history by having an organized military when the Turks show up, what's the point? You're here to stand the test of time, after all, not get defeated. Well, normally that's the case.

And Beylik of Karaman, or whatever the Rum re-spawn is called, is a little too powerful. They're one of the top Civs in my most recent game.

Yes I know the Ottomans should not get extra free techs, I'm SAYING that they their tech rate should be freed up a bit, to allow them to advance a bit faster, and that they should get a source of iron. Those are the things that I am campaigning for.

And yes I COULD NOT AGREE MORE with you. The Beylik of Karaman, are TOO powerful, and need to get their respawn zone shrunk. I've done this in normal RFC with the Persians, I know I we can do this for SoI, you just need to shrink them, to only including a few cities, rather then just spawning with the deceased Sultanate of Rum empire, already at your command.

Well I thought I was the majority, have YOU been able to finish the Ottoman UHV on Sultan (the middle difficulty)? How about anyone else, have you been able to? Now days I'm more into just playing/having fun with the game, then actually trying to beat the UHV's.


No, but if I knew Mughals spawned with Military Drill I would've gone straight for it rather than going for other techs. So I could achieve the tech UHV if I went back to a previous save. It takes forever to play as them though so I don't think I will do it.

Well, I was thinking that you could perhaps have +1 free specialist and +1 extra trade route for your top 5-6 biggest cities, I think if anything that makes more sense, doesn't it? I think it would balance things out.

I don't know. I'm not sure how someone goes about making sure civics are balanced in the first place.

Embyrodead is offering to do this himself, and for his long term goals, has specifically mentioned that he wants to formalize the civic stability, and put it on the civiliopedia and elsewhere. Because I don't think you want to continue saying the same thing, "go look at the Stability.py file", every single time a new player shows up. Trying to make this game as professional as possible (ie. All civilopedia texts filled in, no more bugs, balanced game), is what Embryodead is aiming for right now. And please Embryodead correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe this is what he wants to do right now, especially as he moves on to releasing his v1.0 game.

What's the difference between linking someone to a guide and just directing them to Stability.py? The python file is so clear that it pretty much is a guide.

Yes I know the Ottomans should not get extra free techs, I'm SAYING that they their tech rate should be freed up a bit, to allow them to advance a bit faster, and that they should get a source of iron. Those are the things that I am campaigning for.

I don't think the tech rate is a problem. It just that they get stuck in Western Anatolia and you're never going to be strong/advanced if that's all you have.

And yes I COULD NOT AGREE MORE with you. The Beylik of Karaman, are TOO powerful, and need to get their respawn zone shrunk. I've done this in normal RFC with the Persians, I know I we can do this for SoI, you just need to shrink them, to only including a few cities, rather then just spawning with the deceased Sultanate of Rum empire, already at your command.

Beylik's respawn zone can't be shrunk anymore. It's already only 1 territory. It's a max of 3 cities and from my experience they usually spawn with 2, Konya and the city east of it.

If the Ottomans are AI I don't think Beylik should spawn in the first place. What's wrong with keeping Rum there instead of forcing it to collapse?

It seems like someone earlier in that thread, it's not working for me...
I DL'ed : "Sword of Islam 0.2.0 Setup.exe" and "Sword of Islam 0.2.6 Patch.exe" but I get a CvGameCoreDLL.dll error... AS for the "Middle East 750 CE.CivBeyondSwordWBSave" map should I leave it in the "Private maps folder or should I transfer it to the BTS "Public Maps folder" ?

Thanks in advance for answering.

It seems like someone earlier in that thread, it's not working for me...
I DL'ed : "Sword of Islam 0.2.0 Setup.exe" and "Sword of Islam 0.2.6 Patch.exe" but I get a CvGameCoreDLL.dll error... AS for the "Middle East 750 CE.CivBeyondSwordWBSave" map should I leave it in the "Private maps folder or should I transfer it to the BTS "Public Maps folder" ?

Thanks in advance for answering.

You should not be moving any files around. Just run the installer and the patch, then launch the mod with desktop icon etc. Note that because of the DLL it will not run on a Mac (without emulation).

If you're using Linux/Mac and need to do manual install, then download the 7-zip patch instead (link below installers) and unzip with with the latest version of 7-zip to your Beyond the Sword/Mods folder.

Thank you for answer.
Ok, I leave the map where it is, but that doesn't change anything...
Forgot to say though that I have the BUG mod installed... Would there be something to do with locked Assets, or something ( Am not to skilled at tweaking stuff :blush:) or replace the core.dll with an other one...?
Thanks again for the patience.
I use windows XP so no probs on that side

Thank you for answer.
Ok, I leave the map where it is, but that doesn't change anything...
Forgot to say though that I have the BUG mod installed... Would there be something to do with locked Assets, or something ( Am not to skilled at tweaking stuff :blush:) or replace the core.dll with an other one...?
Thanks again for the patience.
I use windows XP so no probs on that side

I don't understand what is the problem that you have - you just said "DLL problem"? If you have WinXP you should not be moving, replacing or tweaking anything. BUG is irrelevant. I hope that you did not install the mod in your My Documents/My Games, CustomAssets etc.? If you did, please uninstall it and install again in the default location (i.e. Beyond the Sword/Mods).

1. Install the mod by running the installer, default path.
2. Install the patch by running the patcher, default path.
3. Run the mod by clicking on the desktop icon.

When you do it, what happens, exactly?

Yes I did, so that's probably where the mistake is coming from...
I will activate back the original assets and try again.
I thought there was a tweak with locking the assets in the game options or so ? If it has anything to do with solving the problem ?

Thanks again

Yes I did, so that's probably where the mistake is coming from...
I will activate back the original assets and try again.
I thought there was a tweak with locking the assets in the game options or so ? If it has anything to do with solving the problem ?

You should not be using custom assets to install any mods except things like BUG or Blue Marble, that are supposed to work in all games/mods.

Standalone mods go into Beyond the Sword/Mods. You don't need to tweak, lock or use any options, just install in the default location and play.

Nope, doesn't work.
Replaced the custom assets by the original in my documents, and removed the BUG folder, but still get the cvcore.dll error. I must say I'm completely at a loss there, because BUG mod doesn't replace the initial dll as there is none in the mod to replace the original. I checked my original dll and it seems to be the same...
Never mind. Don't want to take too much of your time, and it's probably some noob silly mistake I did somewhere...
Thanks again anyway.

Nope, doesn't work.
Replaced the custom assets by the original in my documents, and removed the BUG folder, but still get the cvcore.dll error. I must say I'm completely at a loss there, because BUG mod doesn't replace the initial dll as there is none in the mod to replace the original. I checked my original dll and it seems to be the same...
Never mind. Don't want to take too much of your time, and it's probably some noob silly mistake I did somewhere...
Thanks again anyway.

It's not taking much of my time really, but you still didn't tell me what error do you get and you seem to be doing all kinds of unnecessary things. I don't know why you keep messing with custom assets folder, or with BUG? Forget about all of this and install the mod into the default folder is suggests you, and NOT into My Documents, My Games, Custom Assets etc. as those are not used for standalone mods.

And again, it's not a problem at all, hopefully we'll get there eventually ;)

I don't think I did anything unnecessary, I just installed your mod with the patch and I get a CvGameCoreDLL.dll error. I didn't change anything anywhere, tried to remove the BUG mod from my documents and come back to the original custom assets. And right so that it didn't come out different because the BUG mod doesn't replace the original CvGameCoreDLL.dll... So I wonder where it can come from, your mod is in :
F:\Program Files\Games\2K Games\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4 Complete\Beyond the Sword\Mods\The Sword of Islam, and well it just doesn't want to work as well as 3 of the score of other mod that I have like Fall from Heaven, Total Realism and CIV Gold3. Why those 3 ( with same error message ), when the other work ok, plus your Mod, I have no clue... I installed your Mod without modifying anything in Custom assets in my documents, but if I remove the BUG mod from my documents, I get the same thing ( I'm saying that because I understand I should not have installed the BUG mod with their exe file but probably should have intalled it as a mod in the BTS main folder...Dunno
JMV

What exactly is the error? What does it say?
If some other mods also don't work, it may be something with your OS/CIV4 - do you have the latest version of BTS (3.19)?

In error Signature it names the CvGameCoreDLL.dll . As you know I can't take a copy of the details because it would be a lot of pages if I ever could. And yes, I have the 3.19
Will try to reinstall and try again on a neat unmodded install.
Thanks again

Just wanted to say, that I removed the iron resource from Adrianople, and placed it on (8,59), which is 2 tiles west of Dorylaion. I then replaced the iron near Adrianople with a stone resource (which I think it was in previous versions of this game). I did this through the Middle East 750 WBSSave on notepad, so I've just started a game as the Mughals, and I'll report my findings, as to what exactly happens to the Byzantines, and later the Ottomans.

EDIT: I put the diffuculty setting on Sultan, Normal Speed, as these are the "Defaults"

Ok, I have erased and reinstalled all my Civ 4 + BTS + W, for a couple of hours and guess what !
Same message with CvGameCoreDLL.dll again. The others "in game" like Afterworld, Charlemagne, Meso America are working fine. I didn't do anything else but click on install on your file and fire it. :confused:

Ok, I have erased and reinstalled all my Civ 4 + BTS + W, for a couple of hours and guess what !
Same message with CvGameCoreDLL.dll again. The others "in game" like Afterworld, Charlemagne, Meso America are working fine. I didn't do anything else but click on install on your file and fire it. :confused:

The mods you mentioned are mods from BTS CD. Sure these work, but the downloaded ones don't, right? The silly thing is, that's what happens on Mac, but you said you're using WinXP so I'm out of ideas. You're the only person with this problem (the other one was just unzipping issue) so far - apparently you cannot use custom DLLs on your machine. If this is really an issue with all downloaded mods that you mentioned (FFH, TR etc. all use custom DLLs), you may try asking for help in the main C&C forum. Sorry :dunno:

Yes, all that is very strange and there is no logic to it.
For example I have Civ 4 only Mods that have their proper CvGameCoreDLL.dll as is the case for your Mod and they work OK like SPQR.2 for instance, altough two of them
( Total Realism - Fall from Heaven ) have their own CvGameCoreDLL.dll and don't work.
As for BTS Mods I have Road to war and Ryye with their own CvGameCoreDLL.dll, working OK. Whitch section ( in full ) did you say I should ask ?
I have all the HEX description in the error log, but unfortunately as you know it's impossible to make a copy paste of it, and know nothing myself about modifying Hex files
Thanks for your help anyway.

Yes, all that is very strange and there is no logic to it.
For example I have Civ 4 only Mods that have their proper CvGameCoreDLL.dll as is the case for your Mod and they work OK like SPQR.2 for instance, altough two of them
( Total Realism - Fall from Heaven ) have their own CvGameCoreDLL.dll and don't work.
As for BTS Mods I have Road to war and Ryye with their own CvGameCoreDLL.dll, working OK. Whitch section ( in full ) did you say I should ask ?
I have all the HEX description in the error log, but unfortunately as you know it's impossible to make a copy paste of it, and know nothing myself about modifying Hex files
Thanks for your help anyway.

Crash dump isn't of much use so just skip it. Try asking in the main Civ4: Creation & Customization, with the problem that you use WinXP and cannot play BTS mods, including FFH, TR etc., that use modified DLL, except those from BTS CD.

Thank you. Have actually posted in Tech. Support as it's probably not your mod that is faulty, but rather something with my install or PC.

I have an idea, if you have a mercenary unit, you can attach a general and it is no longer a mercenary unit in addition to the general bonuses, this would be unexploitable because it requires a general

PS could you put the provinces map in the provinces spoiler on the OP?

EDIT: for some reason the Punjab isn't part of the Kingdom of Ajmer's area,

Not the best example considering how many times I've reloaded saves... but still, I technically finished it 70 years/turns early, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem, it's just a huge timesink as MessageMan said, 360 years and you have to be on the move all the time. I don't want to do this ever again either ;) Vassalage isn't really an option because everyone eventually collapses - at some point Mamluks and Safavids died and it was me vs. rebels.

1470s Matchlock
1540s Military Drill
1590s Finished conquest
1610s Flintlock

Other notes:

A lot of techs were stolen with great spies etc.
Due to RFC tech cost multipliers, GPs are useless late game, I'll probably double their research value at least.
-21 diplomatic penalty for persecuting Shi'ites ftw
-10 or so for razing Sunni cities = 0 Piety = Heretic, but that got fixed quickly with the Caliph in hands
Levant was added to border maps, but it doesn't matter much. During the conquest stability dropped to -70 or so, but that's what Kaiser-i-Rum is for.
Research rate isn't really a problem (11+ city penalty is annoying, but even with 40 cities it's not that bad) - Ottoman techs cost 90% of normal, compared to Mamluks 115% or KoJ's 150%.
My city placement in Anatolia is terrible, though Izmir owns


Safavids are more of a worry than Ottomans in terms of balance IMO. At least I've seen powerful Ottomans all over Anatolia & Caucasus a couple of times; Safavids - never. Mughals were doing good and finished all three of their wonders before I could research them.

Re: AI Ottomans, I'll post answers tomorrow or so.

Any comments on what I wrote above?

I have an idea, if you have a mercenary unit, you can attach a general and it is no longer a mercenary unit in addition to the general bonuses, this would be unexploitable because it requires a general

PS could you put the provinces map in the provinces spoiler on the OP?

EDIT: for some reason the Punjab isn't part of the Kingdom of Ajmer's area,

1. Will do possibly. Normally it's a sucide to attach GG to a mercenary due to upkeep.
2. Yes!
3. Punjab wasn't ruled by Chauhans at any point.

Not the best example considering how many times I've reloaded saves... but still, I technically finished it 70 years/turns early, so it shouldn't be that much of a problem, it's just a huge timesink as MessageMan said, 360 years and you have to be on the move all the time. I don't want to do this ever again either ;) Vassalage isn't really an option because everyone eventually collapses - at some point Mamluks and Safavids died and it was me vs. rebels.


By the end it wasn't fun anymore. It started to feel more like a job than a game. :lol:

Did the Mamluks collapse before you took them on or did they stay alive for a long time? How about Ak Konyulu?

Transjordan was added for Ottomans?

Safavids are more of a worry than Ottomans in terms of balance IMO.
I think that is generaly due to their somewhat limited start position. They are squished between Ak Koyunlu/Superpowered Abbasids and the Timurids/Superpowered Ghazi's. If they can grab Georgia they will do fairly well, but the AI is a wuss about invading rebel cities. When I played as the Safvids and took Georgia after it collapsed, the cities were being defending by archers and even the score leader Ottomans didn't do squat about it.
I don't know how accurate it is, but I have noticed the area around the Safvids for commerce is pretty limited due to a relative scarcity of food resources and plains/semidesert.

1. Will do possibly. Normally it's a sucide to attach GG to a mercenary due to upkeep.
2. Yes!
3. Punjab wasn't ruled by Chauhans at any point.

I had thought they once controlled both Multan and Lahore because the Broken Crescent told me so...

By the end it wasn't fun anymore. It started to feel more like a job than a game. :lol:

Did the Mamluks collapse before you took them on or did they stay alive for a long time? How about Ak Konyulu?

Transjordan was added for Ottomans?

Agreed about the end. Mamluks stay waaay to long despite dwindling at -40, first city I took from them was Sis, and they collapsed when they only had Egypt proper left. Ak Koyunlu collapsed without my help.

Yes about Jordan.

EDIT: Well, Tripoli wasn't needed and shares BFC with Damascus, and Antalya (and Kayseri probably) is what I meant by terrible city placing in Anatolia.

Agreed about the end. Mamluks stay waaay to long despite dwindling at -40, first city I took from them was Sis, and they collapsed when they only had Egypt proper left. Ak Koyunlu collapsed without my help.

Yes about Jordan.

I think some of it has to do with it takes 170 years or so before you can begin conquering. A lot of time is just spent building up cities, which can get tedious after a while.

As for Tripoli, that's true, but they can both be rather productive even with the handicap. At least that's what I've found.


EDIT: Well, Tripoli wasn't needed and shares BFC with Damascus, and Antalya (and Kayseri probably) is what I meant by terrible city placing in Anatolia.

I missed the edit on this. :lol:

All our editing is making me go a bit :crazyeye:

I had thought they once controlled both Multan and Lahore because the Broken Crescent told me so...

Not sure where, but not everything in BC is right, like Imamate of Oman. Anyway, Multan & Lahore were under control of Ghaznavids when Ghori took them, and before that under Shia rulers; from what I know Chauhans ruled Ajmer & Delhi.

@Embryodead: The issue is fixed. I don't know what caused it, but you might want to add it to the front page.

Not sure where, but not everything in BC is right, like Imamate of Oman. Anyway, Multan & Lahore were under control of Ghaznavids when Ghori took them, and before that under Shia rulers; from what I know Chauhans ruled Ajmer & Delhi.

Why is Duggar one of their areas then? it is isolated

@Embyrodead
You should make the AI Chauchins automatically move their capital to Delhi (like the Delhi Sultanate/ Ghorids do), when they capture it, since it was their capital, before the Delhi Sultanate captured it.

I don't like the GG mercenary idea, because just think of the varangian guard, they were their for the loot that was given to them after the passing of each Emperor, mercanaries will always be there for just the money, even if led bu a great general, think about the battle of Manzikert

Also I was thinking, that you should give the Sufi Missionary, an extra movement point, that way, I think it would be a lot more worth it for the player and AI. Otherwise, making a Sunni/Shi'ite missionary is cheaper to build, and pretty much achieves the same objective. And if they were such good missionaries, then giving them +1 movement point wouldn't harm anyone then.

I just finished a few games, where I moved the Iron closer to Doryleion, and the outcome was VERY positive. The Byzantines were able to retain the iron deposit, and use it well for a long time, before the Ottomans came and took it from them. I then saw the Ottomans use the iron to make iron resource units, this helped them tremendously, as they took Constantinople in 1400 (not too bad!), also they were then able to vassalize the Beylik of Karaman, (which I wish they hadn't, they should have steam rolled over them), and then they captured bits of the Levant and Mesopotamia. So yes, I can definitely saw, mission success! Please move the iron next patch, or try it out yourself!

Finally I found more music for you, for the mod, I mean any mod can ALWAYS use more music right :P :
http://www.youtube.com/user/maronites#p/a/u/2/amZ18d1sNT4
http://www.youtube.com/user/maronites#p/a/u/1/9AWGB4Tvy24
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EAvlimEYEpQ - When playing as a Muslim civ only perhaps....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDckWEoVmns - Music for Georgian LH, perhaps?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zejbRH1QMnA&list=QL&playnext=1 - Great Music in general

Just pick the one's you like (I perforable liked the first one IMO, but either is fine)

Also could you please respond to this:
(Especially changing the Mamluk/ Ayyubid spawns)
@MessageMan

Thanks for the Ottoman report. I tried playing as them several times and it is indeed a long game, but I feel that it's good, because too many civs can be won very quickly. Iron usage should be possibly reduced further, but there isn't much left to make iron-free: heavy cavalry, heavy infantry and heavy spearmen.

I think that no one has won historical victory as Ottomans yet, so I may need to check the techs again, although I remember doing the first part at least by doing only needed techs, just didn't continue on the conquest.

The thing is, is that for the most powerful Empires in the Middle East, for the late game, they are very weak in this game. I never see them expanding outside of Anatolia, and if they DO capture all of Anatolia, then thats really an excellent exception, because usually they are confined to Western Turkey, where they are pushed around by the Byzantines and Kerman. I think you really need to give them a leg up against the Seljuks especially, by perhaps adding 1-2 more units for their start, and by easing their technology rate by a by a bit. I would also strongly recommend moving the iron source near Adrianople, to between Constantinople and Bursa, that way, when the Byzantines would have a hold on it (and a better hold on it, since it wouldn't be constantly pillaged by Bulgarians), and then when the Ottomans spring up, they can have the ability to capture the iron source for themselves, which would greatly aid them. I understand this would take some testing, so I will try it out for myself, but I would strongly encourage you to try it for yourself as well, as I think having iron can make all the difference, for the Human AND AI.


2. There was a Qarmatian kingdom there, but it doesn't deserve to have a city any more than other places really.
3. Yes, both in Persia and Mesopotamia, thanks.

2. Well, if there was a kingdom in Bahrain at the time, (which I had no idea about), then I was strongly suggest then, adding a city, with a few troops, not to mention it could spice up events in the Gulf ;)
3. Yay! Great, I'm happy you found them! Now onto naming the rivers? :lol:


-2 Stability is bad - it doesn't prevent resurrection even in normal RFC. Mamluks, however, spawn always. Note that they do so after you complete 2/3 UHVs, and you don't need Egypt to complete the third. You're (historically) banished to Syria where you basically just need to survive a while longer.

Ok, the thing is that, fine -2 can be bad (by the way, when I started my Ayyubid game, I had -40 stability, just like that :eek:!), but it should be worse then that, for them to spawn. I yes I realized they spawn no matter what, but take a look at what I wrote back:
Yes the Mamluks are annoying, and if they are going to take over your capital and core province, they should ONLY spawn if you are very unstable. Think about it, the Mamluks came to power after overthrowing their weak overlords, therefore they should only spawn if the present Egyptian civ is weak. As for the Ayyubids, they should, spawn whether the Fatimid's are weak or not, as they conquered the civ externally, rather then exploiting a weakness per se.
I think this way would be more historical, and a lot better, for everyone.

But I can explain it :p Al-Jazari didn't invent clocks per say, and Elephant Clock is rather useless as a clock, especially townclock. Jazari made the first robots, and elephant clock is one. Here's his sketch (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Al-Jazari_Automata_Elephant-Clock_1315.jpg) and a modern replica (http://www.muslimheritage.com/uploads/elephant_clock_in_Dubai.JPG). It's really wicked... it was basically a several meters high robot that included an African elephant, a Chinese Dragon, an Egyptian Phoenix and some Arab, Greek and Turk passengers. All the elements moved depending on the hour, powered by water. So, it's not a townlock, but a moving multicultural sculpture (helping myself with wikipedia here ;) )

Ok, well I know what the Elephant Clock is, but you still haven't explained why the elephant clock should give a boost in relations with a random leader? I think since giving a boost with a random leader, still does not make sense, it makes a lot more sense therefore to have them get a production boost as instead, as again, it was a nominal clock.


It was like that from the beginning, those are Slavic slaves ;) (not really sure if they used Slavs, or just other Turks as slaves, probably both)
Ok..... So can you change it back to the regular Turkish slaves, like everyone else has :crazyeye:


Agrarianism which supposedly sucks(?) is way too good without health penalty. It's really +2 to +6 commerce per city. Depends on the civ, but it's usually more than you get from Market Economy or Merchant Capitalism.
Agrarianism is great! Its actually the civic I use all the time, and sometimes for the entire game too! I think IF ANYTHING Market Economy and Merchant Capitalism need to get a leg up. Perhaps giving Market Economy +1 trade routes in 5 biggest cities would be a good idea as well.

Should the stability guide etc. be general like the one MessageMan posted, or detailed, for all the spreadsheeters? ;)
Oh great, your making the stability guide! :goodjob:
I would make it as detailed as possible, that way, there will not be as many stability centered questions anymore, ya, that would be great if you could do that, thanks!


I added Northern Syria, Syria, Palestine and Hejaz to Ottomans.
Finally! ;)

OK, so first UHV is easy if done in correct order, and by stealing techs - focusing on Mamluks and adding 1 Great Spy got me both Blast Furnance & Chemistry (not essential, but why not), without extra spending. As for the Conquest I'll have to try again because of multiple f-ups and bad luck, like getting hit by plague and Ayyubid DoW+SoD at the same time, which made me lose cities and delay the conquest of Constantinople until 1440 or so.

I built Bursa on the spot, I like Izmir as it's usually well-developed and it's the best city you get until Constantinople or Ankara develops, but I never tried razing it tbh. I razed Abydos, Amisus (bad idea actually, UHV), Samsun, Alaiye, Konya, kept the rest, including Edirne.
Ok, well Embryodead, not everyone is as a great of a player as you are, I personally can never finish their UHV's, and just because you and a few others can, doesn't mean the bulk majority can finish their UHV's, their just too hard, and on top of that you have to steam roll over the Seljuks (which actually for the human, isn't too bad), but then you have an epic war with the Mamluks (and sometimes Ak Koyonlu) for supremacy of the Levant, and that can drag on FOREVERR.....
And the tech rate for the Turks, is just horrible!
Thanks :)

Got two questions about mercenaries:

1: Does deleting one not count as releasing one from your service? I deleted a mercenary, but there was still a maintenance cost or whatever, despite having no others.

2: There are often long breaks between when mercenaries are available and when they aren't. It's like they know I'm going to use them as suicide troops to weaken the enemy from my national troops. Is this a part of the game, or is my paranoia right?

Sorry if these have been asked and answered before, I'm rather forgetful.

Finally Won on Caliph with Byzantines:



http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/2052/civ4screenshot0103.jpg


Expanded to all my border provinces plus Transjordan and Egypt, got Nelson Mandela score, though I am not sure if scores are relevant in RFC. The only thing to compare is the amount of gold, I guess :)


1) From 1240 till Timurid era Iran was all black. Perhaps Kwaresm could use Khorasan as core province. So could Timurids -- they both were attacking East side of the map in real history, but not in the mod.

2) Single spy can revolt 150% defense city with some 380 EsP. Why bother with siege weapons? Is there any way to remove espionage slider all together and bring down all the costs, so that one actually needs to relay on buildings and not economy to produce :espionage: ? Spies are way overpowered and AI uses them just for a little things like destroying Cottage. One time Hashishin was able to prevent city revolt and I lost a Spy (big relief!)

3) Please consider to shorten names for Mercenaries. One cannot fire them -- long name pushes "fire" button away and there is no scroll to the right bar.

4) Will be very interesting to see how long Rum and Ottomans will be able to withstand after they get defenders in flip cities. Also, perhaps Ottomans need to get a second stack, just like Rum.

Overall this civ gives a very good idea about the first half of the mod. Nice civ to play for the starters.

That re-affirms my belief that Egypt is key to victory. Lower Egypt is an economic powerhouse. I went from -7 gold a turn at 60% research to +40 gold a turn at 80% research in my KoJ game. I'm sure Egypt was the California of the Middle East. Just without the Hollywood.

That re-affirms my belief that Egypt is key to victory. Lower Egypt is an economic powerhouse. I went from -7 gold a turn at 60% research to +40 gold a turn at 80% research in my KoJ game. I'm sure Egypt was the California of the Middle East. Just without the Hollywood.

LOL! Its funny that you say that because, currently California is broke! They have NO money! But yes, I will agree that Lower Egypt is the most profitable region in the game, and for good cause to, Egypt has always been the power base of many strong empires. I would also say that a close runner up, is Northern India, or India in general. I was making A LOT of money as the Mughals, even though I owned a huge army, and I was at war on all fronts (Malwa, Ajmer and Timurds). So ya, I would definitely say that Northern India is a production/gold powerhouse as well, (and again, for good cause ;) ).

LOL! Its funny that you say that because, currently California is broke! They have NO money! But yes, I will agree that Lower Egypt is the most profitable region in the game, and for good cause to, Egypt has always been the power base of many strong empires. I would also say that a close runner up, is Northern India, or India in general. I was making A LOT of money as the Mughals, even though I owned a huge army, and I was at war on all fronts (Malwa, Ajmer and Timurds). So ya, I would definitely say that Northern India is a production/gold powerhouse as well, (and again, for good cause ;) ).

Yea, that's a problem, being broke. But, it's all good Egypt is the economic powerhouse. Rome, East Rome, the Caliphates, Ottomans (maybe to a lesser extent), they all had great power from Egypt.

Edit: I'm playing a game as Ottomans, and I'm in full agreement there needs to be a source of iron in W. Anatolia, rather than Thrace. Otherwise, building up an army to take on the Byzantines is very difficult.

LOL! Its funny that you say that because, currently California is broke! They have NO money! But yes, I will agree that Lower Egypt is the most profitable region in the game, and for good cause to, Egypt has always been the power base of many strong empires. I would also say that a close runner up, is Northern India, or India in general. I was making A LOT of money as the Mughals, even though I owned a huge army, and I was at war on all fronts (Malwa, Ajmer and Timurds). So ya, I would definitely say that Northern India is a production/gold powerhouse as well, (and again, for good cause ;) ).

California's economy is worth over $1 Trillion,. Our problems come from inept government which has gotten more partisan over the years, this aggravates the fact that you need a 66% vote to raise taxes and pass the budget. It is also cause by this thing called Prop. 13 which has made it impossible to fix our deficit unless we eliminate the corrections budget (yeah right, I'm sure no jails will help us) and eliminate the UC/CSU systems (eliminate the best college university system in the US? Hell no!)

I found 3 more minor things:
1:There is another unnamed lake near the one next to Samara.
2:Tamara calls herself Isabela when you meet her and she is annoyed.
3:Why does yemen not loose contact with gujarat and sindh?

2:Tamara calls herself Isabela when you meet her and she is annoyed.

A good one! :lol:

BTW, a really surprising thing occured in my last game:

After the Abbassids colapsed for the final time, the tital of comander of the faithful passed to the Seljuks, after the Seljuks collapsed, gess who the next Comander of the Faithful was: THE ZENGIDS:eek:. They collapsed soon after...

Check out my post #1089, I added a few more comments and music.

2:Tamara calls herself Isabela when you meet her and she is annoyed.


A propos Georgia: just played it again and noticed that the building UHV (the 2nd one), which is designated as a "by" actually plays out as an "in" (had the necessary buildings in the 1190s, but got checked in 1210 together with the 1st UHV). So that minor thing should be corrected one way or the other. Apart from that, I think Georgia is neat to play (though I got lucky at the start: Trebizond was already indy and Armenia collapsed early). For the first time I got an idea how the new jihad function can work: the whole Islamic world went at me when al-Rashid called for it. Mongols arrived at about the same time. The next 50 years or so were the fun part of my playthough.

This is the best mod for BTS that I have seen, but one thing is missing, The Buyids. They controled at their strongest: Iraq, Kurdistan, Khuzestan, Fars, Yazd, Luristan, Ṭabaristān, Jibal, Kerman, Hormuz and Oman. They had the Abbasid Caliphate as a vassal and in the mod, they are just some Barbarians who are largly unsucessful!
Their spawn date should be 934. There core should be: Kurdistan, Jibal, Luristan and Yazd. They should have a massive stack and start at war with the Abbassids. Their UHV should be: 1: Become comander of the Faithful by 945, 2: claim the title of Shāhanshāh by 981 and 3: do not loose any cities by (aproximatly) 1000. There UU could be the Daylaman cavelry. I am not shure about there UB, maybe something related to the Vakeel Bazaar of Shirāz, I am not shure about the UP.
They can even be unplayable though I belive that a civ that claimed 2 of the in game titles deservs to be playable. I belive they have a far better claim to being included then the 4th crusade and many of the civs that are included. The Buyids should probably begin to loose stability quikly so they would be nearly collapsed by the time the Seljuks spawn if played by the AI.

(A link to the wikipedia page about them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyids.)

I have default SoI settings on city range:

<Define>
<DefineName>MIN_CITY_RANGE</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>2</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>


But I think Python overrides XML... I have razed Qazvin and found a city in Tabaristan but later code creates Qazvin again just 1 tile away from my city...

@Tigranes

If you find out the coding to make civs be able to build cities only 1 tile apart, please share that, as I know A LOT of people would want to use that submod, and I know I definetly would love to use it :goodjob:

@spaceman98

Love the idea of adding the Buyids. But I would have to stop short of wanting to have them as a playable civ. I would MUCH prefer them being unplayable, with heavy controls on them, so that we can force them to collapse, or control certain area (Much like the Portuguese are currently). Also as for the 4th Crusade, like I have said in my previous post (a few pages back now, probably), I wouldn't mind having them represented as "barbs", (but specially coded Barbs), that will go for Constantinople and Adrianople.

Also I would again recommend having some civs refuse to convert to another religion, because I'm sick of seeing a Hindu Sindh (perhaps just increasing the factor that they will stick with Shi'ite Islam).

some old stuff + Ottoman discussion

Is it possible to assign titles in World Builder?

No, but it can be done in the Python console (~), like this:
from Consts import *
gc.getTeam(iFatimids).changeProjectCount(iCaliph, 1)

On the mercenary screen there's a swordsman with level -1. His hiring cost is half that of a regular swordsman.

Ever seen that in regular RFC? I thought I got it from there and fixed it on the way, so that it stopped happening, but apparently it still does, just rarely. I'm out of ideas why this happens though.

Please consider adding rivers on both sides of Constantinople, to add extra defense for them, just like in RFC Europe, I would strongly recommend this as it would allow Constantinople to live a bit longer.

No need to add fake rivers when there's a pre-placed Theodosian Walls wonder that adds +100% (for a total of +200%), more than any fake river would.

2. Well, if there was a kingdom in Bahrain at the time, (which I had no idea about), then I was strongly suggest then, adding a city, with a few troops, not to mention it could spice up events in the Gulf

Like I said, it doesn't deserve to be placed more than any of the 30+ cities in Iran etc. but I don't want the mod to be a scenario with pre-placed cities.

Ok, well I know what the Elephant Clock is, but you still haven't explained why the elephant clock should give a boost in relations with a random leader? I think since giving a boost with a random leader, still does not make sense, it makes a lot more sense therefore to have them get a production boost as instead, as again, it was a nominal clock.

No, not a nominal clock, but a multicultural sculpture that stands in the palace to impress others. You can't even read time for this thing without figuring out how it works - there were plenty of normal water clocks around that time, for normal people to use.

Ok..... So can you change it back to the regular Turkish slaves, like everyone else has

Yeah, OK.

Agrarianism is great! Its actually the civic I use all the time, and sometimes for the entire game too! I think IF ANYTHING Market Economy and Merchant Capitalism need to get a leg up. Perhaps giving Market Economy +1 trade routes in 5 biggest cities would be a good idea as well.

There are different opinions on Agrarianism, but Market Economy definitely doesn't need a boost, it's a great civic for GP strategy, with no penalties. State Monopoly needs a change, though.

And the tech rate for the Turks, is just horrible!

No, t's higher than any other civ except Safavids & Mughals, which spawn 200 years later. You start with only 4 cities and low population, but once you build your economy the tech rate gets insane, normal techs are discovered in 5-8 turns. To give you some examples of tech cost modifiers:
Safavids/Mughals: 75%
Timurids/AkK: 100%
Ottomans: 90%
Mamluks & older civs: 115-130%
KoJ/PoA: 150%

By the way I have killed Ottomans even easier than Rum. After I killed Rum's initial stack at Iconium (and took Iconium) Rum got second stack with Ghazies near Sebastia. Ottomans got just one initial stack, took empty Izmir as their capital and were annihilated few turns later.

Is it possible to code it so that for the first 10 turns newborn civ gets impassable cultural shield, so that one cannot attack their territory?

That's pushing it... for now lets see how it goes with free garrisons; civs that start at war with human player will also get more units to cut down on the exploit.

And yes I COULD NOT AGREE MORE with you. The Beylik of Karaman, are TOO powerful, and need to get their respawn zone shrunk. I've done this in normal RFC with the Persians, I know I we can do this for SoI, you just need to shrink them, to only including a few cities, rather then just spawning with the deceased Sultanate of Rum empire, already at your command.

Their respawn zone cannot be shrunk any further. It's actually less than MessageMan said - 2/3 of a province. They are limited to Cappadocia and cappted at 2 cities, which means they respawn with Konya and Sivas only.

No, but if I knew Mughals spawned with Military Drill I would've gone straight for it rather than going for other techs. So I could achieve the tech UHV if I went back to a previous save. It takes forever to play as them though so I don't think I will do it.

Just for clarification, Mughals don't spawn with Military Drill, no civ does.

If the Ottomans are AI I don't think Beylik should spawn in the first place. What's wrong with keeping Rum there instead of forcing it to collapse?

Rum is not always collapsed. If it's stable and controls Anatolia - Ottomans don't spawn. If it's weak and doesn't occupy the Ottoman spawn zone, then Ottomans spawn but Rum stays there for a while longer.

Don't be too harsh on Karamanids - they managed to hold out for almost 250 years and outlived the Byzantines.

I just finished a few games, where I moved the Iron closer to Doryleion, and the outcome was VERY positive. The Byzantines were able to retain the iron deposit, and use it well for a long time, before the Ottomans came and took it from them. I then saw the Ottomans use the iron to make iron resource units, this helped them tremendously, as they took Constantinople in 1400 (not too bad!), also they were then able to vassalize the Beylik of Karaman, (which I wish they hadn't, they should have steam rolled over them), and then they captured bits of the Levant and Mesopotamia. So yes, I can definitely saw, mission success! Please move the iron next patch, or try it out yourself!

I've always see Byzantines die in 1300-1400 so that is not really new ;) But sure, I moved the Iron to south of Constantinople (it's in Ottoman core though). Dorylaion/Eskisehir is already more productive than most cities in Anatolia, including Constantinople. With that I moved some stuff around to balance the Anatolian cities more, not much, just a matter of one resource or grassland etc.

Why is Duggar one of their areas then? it is isolated

Well, good point, off we go :p

You should make the AI Chauchins automatically move their capital to Delhi (like the Delhi Sultanate/ Ghorids do), when they capture it, since it was their capital, before the Delhi Sultanate captured it.

No, Ajmer remained their capital. Those were two separate kingdoms that had the same ruler. Not to mention that it would screw later Delhi spawn (it's good that you mention it though, I'll have to bring back severe stability penalty for moving capitals, didn't think it was there to prevent civ squatting).

Also I was thinking, that you should give the Sufi Missionary, an extra movement point, that way, I think it would be a lot more worth it for the player and AI. Otherwise, making a Sunni/Shi'ite missionary is cheaper to build, and pretty much achieves the same objective. And if they were such good missionaries, then giving them +1 movement point wouldn't harm anyone then.

No, no, the point of Sufis is that they can pass rival territory without OB. This way you can spread Islam anywhere, even to hostile civs.

Finally I found more music for you, for the mod, I mean any mod can ALWAYS use more music right :P :

Yep, thanks, Azam Ali and that call to prayer are great (soundtracks are universal though), they're added.

Cool, its excellent that the Delhi Sultanate now has its own flag and separate civilization. But will you also give them their own "transferable", LH as well?
Also what made you change their name to: "Sultanate of Delhi", that just sounds too long and I've NEVER seen it spelled like that, so I would definitely highly contest the source where you got that name from.

The whole thing in DoC thread was about player switching to a respawned civ. I didn't change the name, or made it a separate civilization, or did anything new. It's always been called "Delhi Sultanate" in-game and still is; same about flag (like Cilician Armenia) and civ type (meaning, it doesn't use Ghorid's UU & UB), and it's still respawned Ghorids. As for the LH, I haven't found a fitting LH for Aybak and started making one myself but nothing good came out of it.

1: Does deleting one not count as releasing one from your service? I deleted a mercenary, but there was still a maintenance cost or whatever, despite having no others.

Looks like a bug!

2: There are often long breaks between when mercenaries are available and when they aren't. It's like they know I'm going to use them as suicide troops to weaken the enemy from my national troops. Is this a part of the game, or is my paranoia right?

The pool is replenished every 6 turns.

A question about the 'no Portugese ports' goal for Oman: it reads like leaving Goa (and other ports in Hindustan) is ok for the win. And that's what I did (only had to raze Suq in that game) and still lost in 1601. WB shows no Portugese port cities anywhere except Goa. Only a lone carrack left in the Red Sea. So did I not understand the UHV text properly or is there a bug?

A question about the 'no Portugese ports' goal for Oman: it reads like leaving Goa (and other ports in Hindustan) is ok for the win. And that's what I did (only had to raze Suq in that game) and still lost in 1601. WB shows no Portugese port cities anywhere except Goa. Only a lone carrack left in the Red Sea. So did I not understand the UHV text properly or is there a bug?

Hindustan, starting from Sindh, doesn't count. If you can, please post the save so I can tell what happened.

I've always see Byzantines die in 1300-1400 so that is not really new But sure, I moved the Iron to south of Constantinople (it's in Ottoman core though). Dorylaion/Eskisehir is already more productive than most cities in Anatolia, including Constantinople. With that I moved some stuff around to balance the Anatolian cities more, not much, just a matter of one resource or grassland etc.
A radical idea that popped into my head.
Would it be possible to keep the iron the Balkans and then respawn it via python in Anatolia just after Mazikert? That way the Bulgar raids can still really hurt you, but the Ottomans still get Iron units?

Finally Won on Caliph with Byzantines:

Expanded to all my border provinces plus Transjordan and Egypt, got Nelson Mandela score, though I am not sure if scores are relevant in RFC. The only thing to compare is the amount of gold, I guess :)

1) From 1240 till Timurid era Iran was all black. Perhaps Kwaresm could use Khorasan as core province. So could Timurids -- they both were attacking East side of the map in real history, but not in the mod.

2) Single spy can revolt 150% defense city with some 380 EsP. Why bother with siege weapons? Is there any way to remove espionage slider all together and bring down all the costs, so that one actually needs to relay on buildings and not economy to produce :espionage: ? Spies are way overpowered and AI uses them just for a little things like destroying Cottage. One time Hashishin was able to prevent city revolt and I lost a Spy (big relief!)

3) Please consider to shorten names for Mercenaries. One cannot fire them -- long name pushes "fire" button away and there is no scroll to the right bar.

4) Will be very interesting to see how long Rum and Ottomans will be able to withstand after they get defenders in flip cities. Also, perhaps Ottomans need to get a second stack, just like Rum.

Overall this civ gives a very good idea about the first half of the mod. Nice civ to play for the starters.

Thanks for the report!

1) I see Timurids in Khorasan, sometimes in Iran too i.e. I flip their cities on every Safavid start. Too large zones makes it easy for the human, and we can't expect the AI Timurids to capture all of Iran anyway. Previously I planned to have barb Timurids attack the Western part of the map, since the real Timurids can't - even if human-controlled, you won't reach Anatolia and spank the Ottomans. Perhaps it's time to bring back the idea?

2) Simple solution for now - I raised the cost of incite revolt. Other than that, yes any sliders can be disabled, but it will cripple some strategies/civs considerably. Unless, maybe, Brothels and such and made better again? Technically we could have sliderless mod a'la Civ5 but I'm rather afraid of the outcome...

3) I'll just try to fix the UI then.

I think I missed your post about UHVs... but I got that and I'll try to make sure all civs can get 2/3 GA and possibly fluid third condition.

3:Why does yemen not loose contact with gujarat and sindh?

It certainly does. Communications in SoI are cut less often than in RFC though - once every 15 turns on average, with some randomness involved.

Other 2 points are fixed, thanks.

A propos Georgia: just played it again and noticed that the building UHV (the 2nd one), which is designated as a "by" actually plays out as an "in" (had the necessary buildings in the 1190s, but got checked in 1210 together with the 1st UHV). So that minor thing should be corrected one way or the other. Apart from that, I think Georgia is neat to play (though I got lucky at the start: Trebizond was already indy and Armenia collapsed early). For the first time I got an idea how the new jihad function can work: the whole Islamic world went at me when al-Rashid called for it. Mongols arrived at about the same time. The next 50 years or so were the fun part of my playthough.

Thanks, I changed the check to properly work as "by". Glad to see Jihad in action :)

Making the Buyids unplayable may be a good idea, then we can give them a massive stack or a really big core area and force collapse them a few turns before the Seljuks spawn.
Reallwing cities 1 tile from each other would be great, I am worried about how the AI would handle it though...
Maybe if you tell me what to edit I will copy my SoI folder and change it in the copy as a test.

I kinda don't like UHVs that are checked at a date that does not exist in the game, like KoJ for 1290. I hit 90 piety in 1289 and was denied the UHV the next turn, 1291.
This may affect a couple of civs. I am aware of PoA and Samanids.

I'd also argue that something should be done to help Ak Koyunlu a bit with their 2nd UHV. Well, it depends on the starting situation, but having to restart because of unfavourable surroundings after 30 mins waiting is frustrating.
I don't know how regular the following is: Zengids alive and kicking (with castle in Musul), Iraq in posession of either Mamluks or Seljuks (with castle in Baghdad), no cities prebuilt in Azerbaijan.
To help with that I suggest: give the AK more siege weapons at the start, or have them guaranteed to be DOWed on their flip to get the second stack. And/or take one settler away and have Tabriz pre-spawned instead. And/or add Lesser Armenia to their core. Or make sure nothing is heavily fortified. Or just give them time until 1500 (or 1499 whatever it is) beacuse I think you need a very favorable start to be able to conquer everything necessary by 1480. Anyway, the Karamanoglu should be more friendly towards the AK because they were historically allied against the Ottomans. And Kirsiquiya - why?

Another thing about flipping. Is DOW completely random or are there some conditions involved? E.g. as Seljuks - Samanids don't DOW when they lose Merv; as Ghorids - sometimes Bamiyan is owned by Seljuks or Khwarezm, but no DOW on flip, instead insta-DOW if Peshawar was owned by a Hindu civ; as Timurids I got DOWed by Solanki who happened to control Tocharistan (unusual circumstance, I guess). Also nothing happened when the Safavids flipped almost all of Iran away from Timur.

I modified the Imam Reza mosque to create the Imam Ali Mosque. It'll be in my Iran-Iraq war update I'll release soon and would look great in your Mod as well. Feel free to use it.

I keep forgetting to say how cool is it to have " multiple choice" Wonders in this mod! Is it your own invention? Can you also at least hint how was it possible for a noble Polyak to develop such an interest in the Middle east :)? I was born in that forest east of Dvin :lol: but keep learning more and more with the every game I play...

About my rant of the AK start: f it. I got an ok starting situation (Zengids and Rum collapsed right after flips) on the 4th try. The route to the east is open. In between tries I noted that one time Mardin flipped, but Musul didn't and vice versa the other time.

One odd thing that happened on a different attempt: around the AK spawn all of Mesopotamia and Eastern Anatolia were Abbasid light green zones, but the Abbasids did not exist and as I tried to move into that zone, I got a message "Do you want do declare war on (empty)"? Really odd, isn't it?

I had a major disappoint when my 4 year old desktop "got possessed and went all ghostly" (so says my mother), and proceeded to die. Looks like I'll have to play this mod on lowest detail, almost fully zoomed in on my laptop now. I'm going to miss going days without a crash...

This is the best mod for BTS that I have seen, but one thing is missing, The Buyids. They controled at their strongest: Iraq, Kurdistan, Khuzestan, Fars, Yazd, Luristan, Ṭabaristān, Jibal, Kerman, Hormuz and Oman. They had the Abbasid Caliphate as a vassal and in the mod, they are just some Barbarians who are largly unsucessful!
Their spawn date should be 934. There core should be: Kurdistan, Jibal, Luristan and Yazd. They should have a massive stack and start at war with the Abbassids. Their UHV should be: 1: Become comander of the Faithful by 945, 2: claim the title of Shāhanshāh by 981 and 3: do not loose any cities by (aproximatly) 1000. There UU could be the Daylaman cavelry. I am not shure about there UB, maybe something related to the Vakeel Bazaar of Shirāz, I am not shure about the UP.
They can even be unplayable though I belive that a civ that claimed 2 of the in game titles deservs to be playable. I belive they have a far better claim to being included then the 4th crusade and many of the civs that are included. The Buyids should probably begin to loose stability quikly so they would be nearly collapsed by the time the Seljuks spawn if played by the AI.

(A link to the wikipedia page about them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyids.)

I've mentioned Buyids several times since I agree that they are more notable than other missing civs, not just because of some claim, but because Abbasids have no arch enemy, and Seljuks arrive at empty Iran - there's basically a big gap out there. Historically Buyids defeated Abbassids, and fought Samanids, Seljuks and Ghaznavids.

However, there has to be a point when you say stop, or the mod grows too big and gets too slow. Is it the point already... well, it looks like it, 30 civs is a nice, round number... and every new civ slot adds more overhead than the previous one. Some good news is that Sephi found even more DLL speed tweaks that make BTS 50% faster (current SoI DLL tweaks add maybe 20-25% speed), but so far he's not posting the sources, and apparently won't do so for a few weeks.

You haven't given Buyids much chance to complete their UHVs too ;) Lets see, spawn in 934, so they have to destroy Abbasids and control Baghdad in 5 turns, then they've got 18 turns to conquer Iran... Of course, they existed for much longer so they don't have to conquer everything at once, but non-playable sounds better, yes. It'd also mean Samanid UU has to be changed, as they are currently using Daylamites = Buyid/Ziyarid mercenaries. Core should include Fars (Shiraz as capital).

Also, thanks for the mod comment :)

I have default SoI settings on city range:

<Define>
<DefineName>MIN_CITY_RANGE</DefineName>
<iDefineIntVal>2</iDefineIntVal>
</Define>

But I think Python overrides XML... I have razed Qazvin and found a city in Tabaristan but later code creates Qazvin again just 1 tile away from my city...

Yes, Python ignores whatever settings there are, I'll have to add some manual checking to make sure it doesn't happen, thanks.

For anyone else that asked, to enable the 1-tile apart cities, you need to change the above red text in GlobalDefines.XML from 2 to 1. However, this will have have little to no effect on the AI, as settler maps in SoI are built around 2-tile cities.

I'm wondering, why would you guys want it anyway, and would you go with this solution i.e. 1-tile apart cities are allowing but the AI doesn't build them that way? From human player's point of view this seems useless, and from RFC I only consider it an annoyance, i.e. it just means I have to raze more useless AI cities. The one advantage of this is that it's harder to squat the AI (e.g. Ak Koyunlus).

I keep forgetting to say how cool is it to have " multiple choice" Wonders in this mod! Is it your own invention? Can you also at least hint how was it possible for a noble Polyak to develop such an interest in the Middle east ? I was born in that forest east of Dvin but keep learning more and more with the every game I play...

The idea I got from Dune Wars space ports, which let you select what goods to import when they are built. Essentially it's just BTS random event triggered when the Wonder is built.

I'm generally into Medieval & Renaissance history of Europe & Near East, but as I stated in the first post, the Broken Crescent mod for M2TW is what made me interested in the wider Middle East and if not for BC I wouldn't start working on this mod. Sadly I've never been in the ME, but Armenia is on my wishlist of places to visit ;)

I modified the Imam Reza mosque to create the Imam Ali Mosque. It'll be in my Iran-Iraq war update I'll release soon and would look great in your Mod as well. Feel free to use it.

Thanks, I'll check it out!

I kinda don't like UHVs that are checked at a date that does not exist in the game, like KoJ for 1290. I hit 90 piety in 1289 and was denied the UHV the next turn, 1291.
This may affect a couple of civs. I am aware of PoA and Samanids.

This is somewhat unavoidable with multiple speeds - some years exists on one speed, but don't exist on the other, because calendars have different steps. Best I could do is make them match on Normal speed only, currently they're just rounded for both.

I'd also argue that something should be done to help Ak Koyunlu a bit with their 2nd UHV. Well, it depends on the starting situation, but having to restart because of unfavourable surroundings after 30 mins waiting is frustrating.
I don't know how regular the following is: Zengids alive and kicking (with castle in Musul), Iraq in posession of either Mamluks or Seljuks (with castle in Baghdad), no cities prebuilt in Azerbaijan.
To help with that I suggest: give the AK more siege weapons at the start, or have them guaranteed to be DOWed on their flip to get the second stack. And/or take one settler away and have Tabriz pre-spawned instead. And/or add Lesser Armenia to their core. Or make sure nothing is heavily fortified. Or just give them time until 1500 (or 1499 whatever it is) beacuse I think you need a very favorable start to be able to conquer everything necessary by 1480. Anyway, the Karamanoglu should be more friendly towards the AK because they were historically allied against the Ottomans. And Kirsiquiya - why?

AkK are conditional to Zengids - if Zengids are alive on your spawn, then it's a bug and I'll fix it.

Diplomatic bonus with Karamanids - sure, I'll add +1, and maybe make them less angry about AkK being Shia.

What is Kirsiquiya? Or you mean the city of Kirkisiya, what about it?

Another thing about flipping. Is DOW completely random or are there some conditions involved? E.g. as Seljuks - Samanids don't DOW when they lose Merv; as Ghorids - sometimes Bamiyan is owned by Seljuks or Khwarezm, but no DOW on flip, instead insta-DOW if Peshawar was owned by a Hindu civ; as Timurids I got DOWed by Solanki who happened to control Tocharistan (unusual circumstance, I guess). Also nothing happened when the Safavids flipped almost all of Iran away from Timur.

It works just like in RFC, except in RFC there's less wars-on-spawn and they're random (50/50). In SoI, historical wars-on-spawn are guaranteed, and there are cases of wars + flip, meaning that the war between say, Ghorids and Ghaznavids happens whether you agree to the flip or not - refusing will just generate more troops for Ghorids.

There is another mechanic - AI civs getting angry at you because of the flip - like the Hindus' DOW because of loss of Peshawar - but this mechanic is unchanged from RFC. It doesn't happen always, and depends on how much area did you take from the AI.

One odd thing that happened on a different attempt: around the AK spawn all of Mesopotamia and Eastern Anatolia were Abbasid light green zones, but the Abbasids did not exist and as I tried to move into that zone, I got a message "Do you want do declare war on (empty)"? Really odd, isn't it?

Very very odd... once again, I'd be grateful for a save.

As for your Omani save, I'm sorry I can never get it right apparently. First of all, UHV2 and UHV3 are switched on the screen. You completed the anti-Portuguese one actually, but failed the top gold one... and that one is working fine too... which means 30k gold wasn't enough. Previously there was a problem with Mercenaries that caused KoJ to have a lot of gold... and now, in your save at least, Portugal has... 4,993,451 gp :rolleyes: At this point I don't know why - I switched to them and they're losing about 100 per turn.

If I can't figure it out I'll just make the UHV goal a fixed amount, 30k sounds good I guess. EDIT: make that 50k and "by" condition, so that GA can be triggered before 1600.

I'm wondering, why would you guys want it anyway, and would you go with this solution i.e. 1-tile apart cities are allowing but the AI doesn't build them that way? From human player's point of view this seems useless, and from RFC I only consider it an annoyance, i.e. it just means I have to raze more useless AI cities. The one advantage of this is that it's harder to squat the AI (e.g. Ak Koyunlus).


Here is an example:
Everytime I read about Crusades I hear about Aleppo as often as about Antioch and Edessa, if not more often. But thre is almost no chance for anyone ever to see Aleppo on this map, even though it is in the City Name manager. One would basically need to raze Antioch, I think.

Same goes for Ani (the city of 1001 churches, most celebrated medieval Armenian capital and popular female name ;) ). There is no way to have Ani and Kars on the map at the same time.

I am sure one could come up with more examples. Nisa and Merv is one of them.

In addition I would really LOVE to see less determenistic approach to the city placement. I understand where you are coming from, but, well, sometimes one needs to see fresh cities for a change! Yes, even if that city is not THAT historically significant, like Limasol on Cypros or Derbent in Caucases. I still remember my WOW feeling when I saw Georgians to found Televi :goodjob:! That was very very cool. Unlike regular RFC I cannot find your Python file responsible for the settlers map -- how do you randomize certain areas anyway?

Perhaps you could make it so that sometimes city placement follows your semi-determenistic 2-square radius way, but sometimes AI is given more freedom for random settling plus 1 square rule can be in place?

Settler maps are in the DLL, or CvRhyes.cpp, both in RFC and SoI. Maybe you're referring to python War Maps in RFC, which don't exist in SoI (they're replaced by provinces), but War Maps are only for AI war declarations. If you can recompile the DLL I can send you an OpenOffice spreadsheet with settler maps. Or I adjust the settler maps myself and provide an alternative DLL for testing, though it'll require weeks of adjustments to get it to a state when at least the historical cities are favored.

My main problem is that when the AI sees the opportunity, it will build most ridiculous cities 1- tile to each other, and it's not easy to prevent it from doing so. Sure there will be Nicaea even... but it will be a crappy city, right next to crappy Constantinople etc.

BTW I know Ani would be better than Dvin for Bagratid capital, but it'd move Armenia too far north, while Dvin is centrally located between Vaspurakan and Kars.

Maybe we should wait until the speed tweeks are released and then add the buyids, but I think the Buyids were so powerful historicaly that they cannot be Ignored.
I gess I agree about making them unplayable. They were massive but short lived, and making them unplayable means that we can give them a massive army and force collapse them around the Seljuk spawn date.

You know embryodead, you could always add two civs if you're going for even numbers :D

Like Ilkhanate and Buyids ;)

AkK are conditional to Zengids - if Zengids are alive on your spawn, then it's a bug and I'll fix it.

Diplomatic bonus with Karamanids - sure, I'll add +1, and maybe make them less angry about AkK being Shia.

What is Kirsiquiya? Or you mean the city of Kirkisiya, what about it?

From an Ayyubid perspective I can confirm that Zengids collapsed before AkK, but playing AkK the majority of times Zengids were still around.

And Kirkisiya is just a stupid unproductive city. I know it's exaggerated to say that the AI should not be allowed to build it, but when playing as AkK and it flips to you, it's annoying because its just a bad city you can't refuse to get and you can't just leave it go indy or conquered bc its in Jazira. Anytime it exists on my AkK tries I just wanted to start over. Actually I'd like to have the option of refusing/disbanding/razing cities that flip to you.


Very very odd... once again, I'd be grateful for a save.

attached


As for your Omani save, I'm sorry I can never get it right apparently. First of all, UHV2 and UHV3 are switched on the screen. You completed the anti-Portuguese one actually, but failed the top gold one... and that one is working fine too... which means 30k gold wasn't enough. Previously there was a problem with Mercenaries that caused KoJ to have a lot of gold... and now, in your save at least, Portugal has... 4,993,451 gp :rolleyes: At this point I don't know why - I switched to them and they're losing about 100 per turn.

If I can't figure it out I'll just make the UHV goal a fixed amount, 30k sounds good I guess. EDIT: make that 50k and "by" condition, so that GA can be triggered before 1600.

Too bad for all the time that went into it, but that seems to be playtesting. So Portugal has 5 mil? Do they start with that much? Kinda unrealistic - they were still just building up their colonial trade empire which made them so wealthy until the British and Dutch outcompeted them. Anyway, a fixed amount of 50k is good. The only competition you get apparently comes from bugs and 30k is too easy. I was just running science on 20-40% during the 16th century.

On a different note about the Ayyubids: they usually get extra units from Damscus flipping. But these units should spawn in Damascus to defend the city, otherwise either Antioch or Abbasids/Zengids, whoever has the upper hand at that time retakes it easily shortly after. Pop is always too low to draft defenders there and you need it as base of operations in the levant so that your Egyptian production facilities can rather focus on getting the necessary "stuff" into Yemen in time.

@Embryodead
Thanks for responding! Its an excellent Birthday present! ;)

But you still haven't responded to my recommendation of changing the Egyptian Spawn Mechanics!!:(

Could you please! Because I would REALLY like to see it implemented!

Two minor things:

Is it possible for the human Ghorids to automatically have the civ name changed to Delhi Sultanate, too, once the palace is moved there?
I've always found it strange that Zengi remains the Zengid leader even though he always dies so early in combat. Would you bring in Nur ad-Din, his notorious son, as the GG or even the Zengid leader? I am aware that the civs outlast the leaders that merely represent them diplomacy-wise, but Zengi basically is the only one in the game who dies two times.

Ya, I have to agree, I think in general, there should be more generals (no pun intended :lol:), no but seriously, more historical GG's should spawn, it just adds to the game so much, not to mention it wouldn't make a civ TOO strong, JUST because they have one. In fact if you could borrow from the Alexander the Great mod in Warlords, it would be cool, for up to a certain date, whenever an historical GG (not a random spawning one), "dies" in combat, he's transported back to the capital, but after a certain time, he dies (or if you could code it, he disappears), I think that would be REALLY cool!

Also whatever happened to creating an AoR for SoI? I thought it would be cool, so that you could have more specific mercenaries in different regions.

PS. Question out to ANYBODY, can SOMEONE please tell me where I can fix the "red screen of death", for my vista laptop? I don't know how to fix it, and I can't fix it! So PLEASE any help would be great, as I'm DYING to play again!!!! (by the way I'm using my mac laptop, to type this to you).
Thanks!

Some tests of city radius: 1 and slightly randomized settler maps. So there's Aleppo even, but it has "RAZE ME" painted all over ;)

Still it look like a nice change! And Georgian cities -- I have never seen them before! Did you actually "make" AI to settle Haleb, or it was just a random preference?

Like Ilkhanate and Buyids ;)

...and Kara Koyunlu, Shirvanshahs, Jalayrids, Saffarids, Kartids, Marwar, Paramaras, Shaybanids and Latin Empire ;)

And Kirkisiya is just a stupid unproductive city. I know it's exaggerated to say that the AI should not be allowed to build it, but when playing as AkK and it flips to you, it's annoying because its just a bad city you can't refuse to get and you can't just leave it go indy or conquered bc its in Jazira. Anytime it exists on my AkK tries I just wanted to start over. Actually I'd like to have the option of refusing/disbanding/razing cities that flip to you.

The same "problem" exists with other civs and in RFC as well with its 1-tile-apart cities. Sometimes it's possible to raze a city, other times not. I don't think I want to code this tbh, it's not much gain. Besides, Kirkisiya isn't that common and it's a minor obstacle.

Too bad for all the time that went into it, but that seems to be playtesting. So Portugal has 5 mil? Do they start with that much?

No, they don't, I have no idea where that 5 mil comes from in your save, never seen that before, but that new save is even weirder :crazyeye: EDIT: It's harmless in that it's only lack of graphical update - once you found a city, the screen gets updated and it shows these cities as rebels, with the Northern "unknown" tile belonging to Turks. I don't know why it starts outdated though.

On a different note about the Ayyubids: they usually get extra units from Damscus flipping. But these units should spawn in Damascus to defend the city, otherwise either Antioch or Abbasids/Zengids, whoever has the upper hand at that time retakes it easily shortly after.

I'm not sure what are you referring to - Ayyubids start with extra troops (apart from those flipped) INSIDE Damascus.

Is it possible for the human Ghorids to automatically have the civ name changed to Delhi Sultanate, too, once the palace is moved there?

Yes, it was the case actually but I abandoned because the Ghorids->Delhi transition includes flags, Core/Border provinces, UUs & UBs etc., which I cannot do for the active player. So if that is OK, I can do it, but only the name will change.

I've always found it strange that Zengi remains the Zengid leader even though he always dies so early in combat. Would you bring in Nur ad-Din, his notorious son, as the GG or even the Zengid leader? I am aware that the civs outlast the leaders that merely represent them diplomacy-wise, but Zengi basically is the only one in the game who dies two times.

Sure! The leader is now Nur ad-Din.

Also whatever happened to creating an AoR for SoI? I thought it would be cool, so that you could have more specific mercenaries in different regions.

There's AoR for Mercenary system and it works fine. For normal units I wanted a system that allows training of UUs and elite units such as heavy cavalry only in Core, but it's not there, as other have said, it's not necessary fitting for CIV4 engine, it would only add to confusion, while the actual regional units are handled by Mercenary system.

@Embryodead
Thanks for responding! Its an excellent Birthday present! ;)

But you still haven't responded to my recommendation of changing the Egyptian Spawn Mechanics!!:(

Could you please! Because I would REALLY like to see it implemented!

Well, happy belated birthsday! ;)

As for the the Mamluks, I like them spawning over Ayyubids - at least the third UHV is a challenge, as you have to maintain highest score despite losing your economic base. And historically it would happen sooner or later - Mamluks controlled the military and politics in Ayyubid Sultanate for many years.

Still it look like a nice change! And Georgian cities -- I have never seen them before! Did you actually "make" AI to settle Haleb, or it was just a random preference?

Yes and no. There are just more viable city spots for the AI to choose from. But Halab is gonna hurt... if Abbasids found it by chance, it's going to flip to Antioch...

...and Kara Koyunlu, Shirvanshahs, Jalayrids, Saffarids, Kartids, Marwar, Paramaras, Shaybanids and Latin Empire ;)


And Portugual.

And the East India Company/British Empire, the later Persian dynasties, the French, World War One, the Soviet Union, the American invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq...

Nah, I'm joking.

:shifty:

I'm not sure what are you referring to - Ayyubids start with extra troops (apart from those flipped) INSIDE Damascus.

I don't know either, but it might be that the Ayyubid garrison in Damascus is pretty weak and definetly not enough to make an offensive. Also at that point Damascus isn't usually a powerhouse either. Maybe unit or two could be added. And/or Damascus spot could be slightly improved. What do you think?

That's my point. Even with the little extra garrison Damascus gets steamrolled a couple of turns after the flip although the player MUST keep it to have a chance at making the UHV. That's why I suggested spawning the additional stack from the DOW-on-flip there. But two additional marksmen might also do the trick.

I've implemented the Massacre of the Latins and the Fourth Crusade using the BTS event system, rebel civ and revolts. In the first event you have the option to basically avoid the future crusade by stopping your citizens from massacring all the Latins, but it costs a lot of unrest and revolts, while allowing the massacre to continue yields a temporary happiness and monetary boost.

Protector of the Holy Sepulchre provides piety bonus for Christian civs (Dome of the Rock no longer provides this bonus though, so that KoJ isn't too easy).

For how it will ruin the balance is another story. Byzantines are just set to resurrect around 1260, but if in that time Rum captures Constantinople, they're pretty much over.

Interesting changes. The mods is terrific already and only getting better.

Another minor thing: Did you leave the Timurids as heathens on purpose on their start? On the one hand you can massacre any city like that, but wasn't Timur the one who islamized his Mongol bunch?

WAIT WAIT WAIT!
Could you please explain in further detail how these will be implemented, because I've never heard of the "Massacre of the Latins", could you please clarify what this does, and what exactly happens when the 4th Crusade arrives? Sorry, but I REALLY want this to go smoothly, and if you could be as specific as possible that would be probably the best. But I'm really happy that you have finally implemented them :)

@2phunkey4u
No the Mongols (Ilkhanate) converted by itself later on. By the time of Timur's birth all (or pretty much all), the Mongols had been converted to Islam. And Timur himself was Muslim; hence the name, "The Sword of Islam"

Waw, you don't stop surprising me, as I thought that from now on we are moving for v1.0 and addressing balance/bug issues only.

This is a remarkable novelity. By the way, be it known that on the East 1182 riot is VERY under reported.

Muslim civs need to get some benefit from possesing Jerusalem too, would not you agree? Why would they fight so madly for it, after all?

Side question: What is the exact formula between piety and stability?

WAIT WAIT WAIT!
Could you please explain in further detail how these will be implemented, because I've never heard of the "Massacre of the Latins", could you please clarify what this does, and what exactly happens when the 4th Crusade arrives? Sorry, but I REALLY want this to go smoothly, and if you could be as specific as possible that would be probably the best. But I'm really happy that you have finally implemented them :)

Article on wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins

~20 years before the crusade, all Latins (Venetians, Genoans and Pisans) in Constantinople were killed, expelled or enslaved and sold to the Turks. This is the reason why Venetians and other Latins were hostile towards the Greeks. Not saying that the Greeks were asking for it as Italian merchants in Constantinople weren't exactly nice, fighting with each other, setting up fires etc.

The massacre I explained - the hostilies turn into a culminating point and the Greeks start killing Venetians and Genoans in your cities. You can stop it, or let the killing continue. Both options are bad, obviously - you can get some gold and happiness + *possible* crusade later, or pay gold, face multiple revolts and unhappiness, but fear no crusade. The AI will opt for the "historical" option.

The crusade spawns a small fleet & army (3-4 Foot Knights, 2-3 Trebuchets, Italian Crossbowman & Infantry) led by Boniface of Montferrat, and follows up with a historical revolt in the city (that puts the walls down).

Another minor thing: Did you leave the Timurids as heathens on purpose on their start? On the one hand you can massacre any city like that, but wasn't Timur the one who islamized his Mongol bunch?

Yes, but the AI converts to Sunni Islam immediately - that represents the islamization that took place. EDIT: To follow up Turks' reply: Timur was Muslim, but a lot of his Turko-Mongol soldiers were still pagan.

Muslim civs need to get some benefit from possesing Jerusalem too, would not you agree? Why would they fight so madly for it, after all?

They do - Dome of the Rock still provides Wonder piety bonus for Muslims, and spreads Islam.

Side question: What is the exact formula between piety and stability?

From -5 to +5 (not linear): hover over Piety in the top-left helper overlay and you'll see the exact bonus in the tooltip :)

The 4th crusade looks great!

As for the Buyids, are you planing to add them after the speed tweeks are released?

I gess 1 tile cities arn't that important, but if you dont implement it then Nicea should appear automaticaly as the capital of the respawned Byzantines.

Don't know about Buyids. I really really don't want Nicaea, I mean, why have two TERRIBLE cities forcibly placed on the map for the rest of the game, instead of a good one? (or even worse because of Bursa, or Sogut, or w/e is used)

The current mechanic is that in 1260 Byzantines respawn normally, with Constantinople as capital. Empire of Nicaea never appears - the period of Nicaea, Epirus etc. = civil war / independents.

Why can't you have Nicea spawn a few turns before the 4th Crusade would appear, and if the Human Player/ AI player loses Constantinople, the human/AI can have his capital moved to Nicea, and then your name would change to the "Empire of Nicea". What would be so wrong about that?

Why can't you have Nicea spawn a few turns before the 4th Crusade would appear, and if the Human Player/ AI player loses Constantinople, the human/AI can have his capital moved to Nicea, and then your name would change to the "Empire of Nicea". What would be so wrong about that?

The answer is the same as always: there is no space for Nicaea on the map. EDIT: Also, spawning a city within player's borders, in a terrible location, would be the most annoying feature ever.

What is so wrong with Byzantium just respawning later? The division of the Empire into Latin Empire, Nicaea, Epirus and Trebizond is exactly what RFC civil war is about.

As a human player you can deal with the whole thing easily in a few turns.

1. I gess I agree with embryodead on Nicea. But the Seljuks need to be prevented from getting to big.
2. I know how we can add the Buyids (unplayable) without adding a new civ. As a historic Samanid respawn with a big core area and large army. It must collapse quikly though.

2. I know how we can add the Buyids (unplayable) without adding a new civ. As a historic Samanid respawn with a big core area and large army. It must collapse quikly though.

They existed in the same time, Samanids until 999 (usually survive a bit longer) and Buyids 934-1055.

oh. sorry

A small question: controlling a province is described as having a city and no else having a city; does cultural borders have anything to do with it? If no one else has a city but my city is culturally squished, do I still control the province?

A small question: controlling a province is described as having a city and no else having a city; does cultural borders have anything to do with it? If no one else has a city but my city is culturally squished, do I still control the province?

Yes, you do. Cultural borders are not checked, only cities.

Thanks for being so patient with us and spending so much time on this work!

So new patch comming out this weekend, I dare to predict? :) I am thinking if Byzantium will be any more challenging than before...

On the other issues:

I was always wondering why is it that Barbarians and 4 civ of rebels have the same color (black)? At least barbarian culture could be more different, especially after Mongol conquest.

Any hope to get Ilkhan or vassal of the Great Khan title at all? Or any other inderect ways to make Ilkhanate more "palpable" in the game? We could use Sultaniyya somehow...

Any positive resolution about the Great Voyage Wonder? Could be multiple choice too and one of the effects to get communications will all the civs or, say, to see entire map!

And finally three words about Khwarezm:). (a) You firmly believe that they don't need to fleep Khorasan? They stay pretty irrelevant, tbh, as Seljuks they declared on me, but sent no troops and after I killed couple of their defenders they just payed me gold for peace. (b) Pagan Khwarezmians looted Jerusalem in 1244, perhaps some barbarian Kwarezmian Lancers could spawn? (c) Does Khwarezm respawn at all? Khanate of Khiva (circa 1500) could be a nice candidate...

I smell a patch upcoming... I'm sure it must get overwhelming with questions sometimes, but you've handled us pesky posters very well so far, so I'll go on and ask anyway: Do you plan to stop the Mamluks from spawning if the Ayyubids have good stability?

No patch this weekend, sorry. Current version is unstable, and doesn't really bring much beyond an untested event and cosmetic changes. So 1-3 weeks, possibly with Buyids, or any other big stuff was supposed to be added. I'll try to exort the speed tweaks from Sephi.

I can change rebel colors, though dark gray is used by Khwarezm already. I guess it can be darker than that, just not completely black.

No plans for the Mongol vassals tbh.

I *really* like the idea for a wonder that makes the contact permanent - it's even better for normal RFC (as Marco Polo) but here as well. I haven't researched anything about possible replacements for the Ibn Battuta's book though - the problem with it was that it was written/published in Morocco and not really known to the Muslim world until modern times.

Khwarzemians who captured Jerusalem are a different story than Khwarezmshahs... they were mercenaries (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khwarezmian_Empire#Mercenaries) who survived the destruction of their state in Khwarezmia and Persia. They captured the city for the Ayyubids, and later worked for Mamluks as well (possibly should be icnluded as mercenaries then, it'd just break the unwritten rule of UUs not being available as mercs). The Empire itself didn't get anywhere near Syria.

About Khorasan, I'll see. It's not as easy as adding the province to their core - the distance from Urgench is huge, so this probably means sprawning extra defenders like for Ayyubids etc.

@AOS9001
I don't, though a lot of people are asking, which makes me uneasy... but look at it this way - it's very very easy for a human player to exploit it. You just need GA, and you actually get one from 2/3 UHVs, so your stability will always be high when Mamluks spawn. If UHVs dates changed, it's still easy to pull it off with a single GP.

I don't, though a lot of people are asking, which makes me uneasy... but look at it this way - it's very very easy for a human player to exploit it. You just need GA, and you actually get one from 2/3 UHVs, so your stability will always be high when Mamluks spawn. If UHVs dates changed, it's still easy to pull it off with a single GP.
I agree with you here. While I was surprised at first to see it happen, after I learned more about the historical background it seemed reasonable. And the Ayyubid UHV looks like its still doable, so keep everything as it is I'd say.

We never disabled the America spawn in RFC either, just because you treated their cities nicely. ;)

But they don't spawn if the Fatimids are around... There's probably a reason I don't know behind then. I'll go with what you say and give them the awaiting stack of doom treatment. Oh wait, the SoD is off in Yemen... Well, Ayyubids have a very short time to do a lot, I guess that can be another.

As for the patch, I still smell one. You will too eventually...

Thanks for being so patient with us and spending so much time on this work!
And finally three words about Khwarezm:). (a) You firmly believe that they don't need to fleep Khorasan? They stay pretty irrelevant, tbh, as Seljuks they declared on me, but sent no troops and after I killed couple of their defenders they just payed me gold for peace. (b) Pagan Khwarezmians looted Jerusalem in 1244, perhaps some barbarian Kwarezmian Lancers could spawn? (c) Does Khwarezm respawn at all? Khanate of Khiva (circa 1500) could be a nice candidate...

I agree that Khwarezm does somewhat poorly as AI, though for the active player it's one of the more easier UHVs, I think - with very nice synergies between the individual goals. I think they are fun to play as they are. But if you want to boost the AI, bring up Samarkand and/or Bukhara in Sogdiana and let them flip that - also take away one/two settlers of theirs then. Atm they are one of the poor civ that usually don't get to flip anything, but Khorasan is a bit much imho. It's one of the most contested areas at that time with Samanids, Ghaznavids, Seljuks, Khwarezm and barbs going for it and it already flips two times.

One more about wonders: I'm starting to miss the good ol' "No anarchy"-wonder and a "Farms spread irrigation"-wonder like the Gardens of al-Andalus from RFCE.

*sorry this is soo late in the convo; apparently the CFC server was too "busy" last night, for me to post anything -___-" *

The answer is the same as always: there is no space for Nicaea on the map. EDIT: Also, spawning a city within player's borders, in a terrible location, would be the most annoying feature ever.

What is so wrong with Byzantium just respawning later? The division of the Empire into Latin Empire, Nicaea, Epirus and Trebizond is exactly what RFC civil war is about.


I still think that representing Nicea would be good, or else, after Constantinople falls, where is your capital going to be moved to? Also do you have Trebizond modded to break away if Constantinople falls? If not, I would recommend you do so. But overall, can't you spawn Nicea, and make Doryleion become a "town" improvement? I know Baldyr did this with his Russian scenario, having Novogord become a town, and automatically spawning St. Petersburg, so can't you do the same? I just think that having a historical capital which the AI AND human can retreat to, if Constantinople falls, would be good, rather than some far flung outpost. Not to mention, you could then change the name, "The Empire of Nicea"
Also please consider making the following flag changes:
First off, I would recommend that you change the starting Byzantine flag, to this:
See attached
And then, when you have the AI respawn in game, I would recommend changing their flag to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Palaiologos-Dynasty-Eagle.svg
OR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Palaeologus_Dynasty.svg

1. I gess I agree with embryodead on Nicea. But the Seljuks need to be prevented from getting to big.
2. I know how we can add the Buyids (unplayable) without adding a new civ. As a historic Samanid respawn with a big core area and large army. It must collapse quikly though.

Did Edead, not say something about having the Buyids all set to go as an unplayable civ? If thats the case, then why not just give them a spin, and see how if it works out ok.

I think the map is too big, wide and production too slow. I always spend 100 years for a building and fight all fights by mercenary. And early civ can't make up in teching like forever. Then I exited the game because bored.

What if we half the cost of all units and buildings except wonders? I think that'll make the game more intense.

What civ were you playing, if I may inquire ? Mercenaries are unavoidable at early stages, but you won't be able to stick with them forever... As Seljuks I have gradually fired all my Merces and that stabilized my economy -- no more wars just for money sake. Costs are well balanced, IMHO , the late game may become a little boring, as AI can never mount a challenge and wage any intelligent war...

I just played my first real game of SoI and I liked it :D

Previously I had played only games where I tried to grasp the game (with relative success). I started my last game with that objective too, as the Safamid (sp? Names will be a problem for now) and it was kinda boring in fact, until the Qarakhanides tried to destroy me.

But then I switched to the Seljuks... and it was lots of fun. Their UU is very cool to storm in cities. Especially since you only need two levels to get the third level of the withdrawal promo line.

I conquered all of Iraq slowly as it was all rebels... and I was pretty pleased to discover that Baghdad made me Commander of the Faithful. However later on the Abbasid declared their independence while I was prepping for a war against Georgia (really not in the same place!!).

So this time I vassalized the Abbasids so they won't do that again. No to vassalize Georgia. I took out the Armenians; they're now two rebel cities.

Is there any tip you'd give me to go to 10% of the world territory? I don't think I'm gonna achieve this in time (I'm at roughly 7.5% in 1120).

Also I have to agree that production sometimes feels really slow.

I don't know what's all this fuss about Nicea. I personally would hate to have it spawn inside my borders (like Embryodead said: most annoying thing ever).

I haven't noticed that production would be slow, as Seljuks I tend to build every useful building in every city and my army is probably even too big. @Opera: I always conquer all of Iraq after the Abbasid respawn. That and the areas that you need for the Shashanhanhnahnahn (whatever) are enough for the 10%. I also use the culture slider to expand my borders further.


This seems like a bug to me:
http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0012-6.jpg

BTW, how many cities you can have without the tech penalty?

I managed to get the 10% but not the two vassals. I had the Abassids and the Georgians but both collapsed at some point (and when the Abbasids came back again, I was too busy conquering Constantinople). However I expanded very badly...

Jibal, Kurdistan, Khorasan, Luristan (those are core), Yazd, Fars (border), Iraq (lost it to the second Abbasids respawn), Kerman, Vaspurakan, Greater Armenia, Georgia, Kars, Pontus, Paphlagonia and Thrace (all those neither core nor border).

Now I realize I'm short of only the Tabaristan to get the Shahnahsha (sp?) title! Dammit.

Also, I managed to become Roman Emperor and a Sunni Saint :D

I haven't researched anything about possible replacements for the Ibn Battuta's book though - the problem with it was that it was written/published in Morocco and not really known to the Muslim world until modern times.


Please take a look at this list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Arab_explorers). :)

Is there any tip you'd give me to go to 10% of the world territory? I don't think I'm gonna achieve this in time (I'm at roughly 7.5% in 1120).


You still have time, but I had an opposite problem.

I had my 10% around 1135, but still no vassals! 2 things about Seljuks needs to be kept in mind -- money and stability. Kufa is the must, and those +10 for Shahanshah are an imperative early on (Yazd is the hardest one). I settle Tabaristan at the start. Nobody would vassalize to me -- they prefer to die or collaps...

Just run at least 10% culture for the entire game and conquire Sistan. Things like Monuments, Race Tracks and Madrasah also help with culture.

Yeah eventually I ran into this problem as well, no one wanting to vassalize. One civ "insulted" me, asking to vassalize in 1210 or so... :(

I didn't find Yazd hard to control. Actually the Shahanshah title was easy to get; I just didn't know I had to settle in Tabaristan. But well, without being Roman Emperor, I'd sure have collapsed. In the end I was running at around -60 stability :lol:

As for vassals, my thoughts are you can manage to capitulate the Abbasids when they respawn. I did it but they eventually collapsed well before 1200. Then maybe Armenia or Georgia.

Zengids are easy to vassalise. Just kill their units and take one or two of their cities. You can give them back later. In my last game I vassalised Zengids, Kingdom of Jerusalem, Ayyubids and Sindh.

Minus 60 in stability? You have certainly overexpanded there! Why you need that title anyway, no collapsing does not mean your cities will not revolt, nothing irritates me more than the need to kill your own former troops to take that city back. And what did you do with the Rum? I would not expand beyond Iran and Iraq until my stability and budget become positive. Good idea about Zengids, I was kind of reluctant to declare on fellow Sunnies -- you get double the Piety hit, I am now Heretic already. By the way why does Heathen considered to be better than Heretic :lol:?

Well, I don't know, I hadn't any declaration of independence since I'm Roman Emperor. Before I had some. And I'm very friendly with Rums. We took Antioch away together :D

By the way why does Heathen considered to be better than Heretic :lol:?
A heathen just doesn't know better. A heretic DOES know better, but decides to undermine the authority of the church nonetheless.

Look at the Albigensian Crusades to see how much contempt the catholic church had for heretics.

Turkish Marash → Maras (<-Maraş)
Greek = Germanikeia (Γερμανίκεια)
Latin Germanicia

Edessa: Armenian Urhai, Arabic Ar-Ruha
Greek should be Ioustinoupolis (is it so?).

About vassals:
I just had the PERFECT Ottoman game (Dardanellia razed on the 1st turn; Byz conquered in the 1340s even without bombards because they left the door kinda open; Karamanoglu vassalizing immediately and taking all the unproductive cities --> tech rate at 100% almost all the time) and now I have a question about vassals, respectively what they conditions for them breaking away might be.

I vassalized the Karamanids, Safavids and Yemen. For the Safavids a stat came up: territory size related to master (free at 50%), pop (can't remember) and land area related to original (free at 50%). I spent the entire 17th century in slight fear the Safavids would DOW and try to break away because they went on to conquer ALL of Persia from the collapsed Timurids. At the end their territory was 75% of my size. Should they have tried to break away or is there a bug or some other mechanic that does not let this happen?

The stat did not appear on Karamanoglu who voluntarily vassalized.

P.S.
Great bombards are IMBA - a bit gainst Theodosian Walls and totally against anything else. The combo mass bombs+ mass drafted arqs (thanks to the UP) stomps everything.

I came up with quite a great idea recently!
How about, right before the Mongols, come streaming onto the map, how about, you have it so that, the Khwarzmians have an event which happens, which states, "Mongol ambassadors have come to your court, what shall we do with them?" (or something like that), and then if you choose to kill them, you will be invaded full on, BUT if you decided to become a vassal of the Mongol's, then you end up paying money each turn to the Mongols, and perhaps some other penalty as well, BUT you are largly spared from the Mongol hoard!
How does that sound?

I came up with quite a great idea recently!
How about, right before the Mongols, come streaming onto the map, how about, you have it so that, the Khwarzmians have an event which happens, which states, "Mongol ambassadors have come to your court, what shall we do with them?" (or something like that), and then if you choose to kill them, you will be invaded full on, BUT if you decided to become a vassal of the Mongol's, then you end up paying money each turn to the Mongols, and perhaps some other penalty as well, BUT you are largly spared from the Mongol hoard!
How does that sound?

This idea wouldn't really work. The Mongols had only peaceful intentions toward the Khwarezmians with their trade mission. Genghis Khan saw them as equals as far as their empires went. It was the Khwarezmian arrogance at the upstart nomads and the killing of the merchants that set the Mongols off. I like the idea of changing that decision, but I think that it would too drastically change the game. Not only would a lack of a Mongol invasion throw the historical aspect into a freaky bizarro-world, but the Mongol invasions also help wipe the area clean for the later emerging factions

freaky bizarro-world,

Aw, but those are the best kinds! Then again, without the invasion of Kwarhezm or however you spell it, the Mongols wouldn't destroy Iran... And they kind of need to destroy Iran.

This idea wouldn't really work. The Mongols had only peaceful intentions toward the Khwarezmians with their trade mission. Genghis Khan saw them as equals as far as their empires went. It was the Khwarezmian arrogance at the upstart nomads and the killing of the merchants that set the Mongols off. I like the idea of changing that decision, but I think that it would too drastically change the game. Not only would a lack of a Mongol invasion throw the historical aspect into a freaky bizarro-world, but the Mongol invasions also help wipe the area clean for the later emerging factions

First off, I agree with you that it was the Shah's of Khwarezm, that sparked off the Mongol Invasion. But what I'm saying is that there should be an event before it happens for the Khwarezmians.
But even if the Khwarezmians became the vassals of the Mongols, they would be severally weakened overall, and would be swept aside by the Timurds (if they even survived not collapsing)
So I still don't see where your fear in all of this is?

On a side note:
Why when the Human player builds a palace in Delhi, does the name not become "The Delhi Sultanate"?

I think the idea is interesting in the aspect of creating an alternative macro-history, but it's not that relevant for the active Khwarezm player. After 1200 you can be well fortified to hold out against the Horde and move out again once they're past or if you'd just pay tribute to them it would essentially trivialize the 2nd and 3rd UHV because you don't have any 'natural' enemies anymore and even more time to conquer/settle the Shahanshah territory. An you don't need an economy to do that, either.

Even atm if Khwarezm were to survive the 13th Century, they'd instantly die to the Timurids because they lose almost everything on the flip. Whether they are vassals of the Khan or not makes no difference there, I guess.

On the side note:
I asked that earlier and edead said it's possible but since it's not a respawn there can't be a change of flags, color and whatever else, only the name. But we say that's fine, a'ight?

The Turk's idea is a good one, however concerns on a bizarre world are also valid. I think that what would be best is that the AI ALWAYS chooses to go to war with the mongols (to keep the whole thing real) whereas the HUMAN player should have a choice, because, after all YOU are the one trying to re-write history.

Quick Thoughts:

There needs to be a greater penalty to massacring a religious minority; currently its too easy, and JUST getting a bit of unhappiness, and lower population is not too convincing either. I would therefore recommend, having it reduce your stability AND cause unrest for a few more turns, then usual.
AND/OR perhaps there should be a small chance, that when you persecute a cities religion, the cities minorities rise up in arms, as peasant spearman, and have 1-3 somewhere around the city

Why does the Shahmenshah, spread Zorastriansim? How does that makes sense at all?

Holy Wars (Jihad), is under used, as I've NEVER seen the AI call one, and even when I do call one, I don't see much of a difference, at all in the game.

Does no one find it weird, that you can build a Sunni/Shi'ite Madrasah BEFORE a Mosque? I mean, Madrasah's are built WITH a Mosque, as an attachment. I think that you should have to build a Mosque FIRST, and then it can unlock a Madrasah

The texture for the Javilenmen should change; I don't know any unit, that looks like that anyways. Plus if you are using them as rebels, I would make them look more the part, as I don't think ANY body was using Javilenmen, that looked like that in their ranks

BUGS:
Playing as Abbasids Easy I got the UHV for 3 Holy Shrines, BUT I ONLY controlled Baghdad and Al-Qods, don't you need to capture Makkah, as your 3rd holy city, to accomplish the UHV?

Quick Thoughts:

There needs to be a greater penalty to massacring a religious minority; currently its too easy, and JUST getting a bit of unhappiness, and lower population is not too convincing either. I would therefore recommend, having it reduce your stability AND cause unrest for a few more turns, then usual.
AND/OR perhaps there should be a small chance, that when you persecute a cities religion, the cities minorities rise up in arms, as peasant spearman, and have 1-3 somewhere around the city

Reducing stability would be counterintuitive as you want religious unity exactly for stability reasons. Unrest is also counterintuitive beacuse the people who could rise up are massacred. And conquered cities already revolt long enough. Rebel skirmishers might be ok. Should they spread back the eliminated religion if they succeed in taking the city from the player?
As a player, I'd like to see more DOW for persecution. You can easily get -9 to -11 dip relations for persecution. How about that: more outside interventions on behalf of religious minorities?


Why does the Shahmenshah, spread Zorastriansim? How does that makes sense at all?

The Shahnameh isn't exactly the holy book of Zoroastrianism, but it is still of great value to Zoroastrians. I think it's ok and the effect is neglectable, as it is with the Buddha statues.

Holy Wars (Jihad), is under used, as I've NEVER seen the AI call one, and even when I do call one, I don't see much of a difference, at all in the game.

Try playing as a Shia civ or an Orthodox civ that does not start at war with the Abbasids. At least my experience with the Georgians was noteworthy: Seljuks from the southeast, Rûm from the west, Abbasids from the south. Quite fun. If you play as Abbasids, the effect might not be as big because your fellow Sunnis are usually already busy fighting Christians or Mongols.


Does no one find it weird, that you can build a Sunni/Shi'ite Madrasah BEFORE a Mosque? I mean, Madrasah's are built WITH a Mosque, as an attachment. I think that you should have to build a Mosque FIRST, and then it can unlock a Madrasah

That's an interesting proposition as it would make the organized religion civic more viable.
Earlier we discussed whether state religion temples should bring +1 to stability. This would allow stability loss for persecutions. However, I have a feeling that temples would become overpowered, then, if suddenly they also became prerequisite for monasteries.

But the point stands that temples are currently underpowered (except for Armenia, who get them cheap enough to be worth it). So maybe that suggestion is exactly what we're looking for.

Reducing stability would be counterintuitive as you want religious unity exactly for stability reasons. Unrest is also counterintuitive beacuse the people who could rise up are massacred. And conquered cities already revolt long enough. Rebel skirmishers might be ok. Should they spread back the eliminated religion if they succeed in taking the city from the player?
As a player, I'd like to see more DOW for persecution. You can easily get -9 to -11 dip relations for persecution. How about that: more outside interventions on behalf of religious minorities?
Well, I'm not dictating how it could be implemented, this extra negative thing, but yes I think it would be logical, for the barbs to reinstate their religion into the city, if they recapture it. I just think, that currently, it is too easy, for the player to just massacre the city. If you've taken a basic Economics course, then you could say that the Opportunity cost of massacring a city is too low; in the sense that there is not enough bad things that happen to you, or that you really are not given much of a choice, you might as well ALWAYS massacre the cities religion, which I usually do. Thats why I think, there should be an attached negative thing, and I think that the city-revolt idea is quite good to. If you could have the city revolt for a few more turns.


That's an interesting proposition as it would make the organized religion civic more viable.
Earlier we discussed whether state religion temples should bring +1 to stability. This would allow stability loss for persecutions. However, I have a feeling that temples would become overpowered, then, if suddenly they also became prerequisite for monasteries.
WHAT? Where are you getting that notion from?? I'd have to strongly disagree with you on that point. Already nobody really builds temples/mosques; its much more viable to build a madrasah first. So if you DON"T change the effects of a temple/mosque, but make it a prerequisite, I think that would be fine. You'd just end up with more temples/mosques, but that wouldn't be a problem IMO, since Madrasah's are more specialist anyways.


But the point stands that temples are currently underpowered (except for Armenia, who get them cheap enough to be worth it). So maybe that suggestion is exactly what we're looking for.

Ya I agree with you 100% Leoreth, temples are generally quite underpowered, everyone goes for Madrasha's first; this way the player will be forced to get the temple/mosque first. :)


Also, whose with me in changing the Byzantine flag to the Chi-Rho:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chi_Rho
Which it was in 750, as a standard for all the Dynasties, up until the recapture of Constantinople from the 4th Crusade.

@ the Turk
Sometimes to me there are high opportunity costs for massacering when the pop gets too low to quickly draft a defensive unit after the city comes out of revolt and the AI I'm currently at war with tries to retake it. Less pop also means that it takes more time for the city to become productive. I see your point but I let mine stand that I'd find it more interesting if other civs did more about your persecutive actions.

About the temples: I see you argue by the historical logic of things, which would mean that the change would only apply to muslims civs. Because churches and monasteries can exist independently from another, can't they (dunno about Hindus...)? That affects game balance, I'd say. How about merging mosque and madrasah into one building that can assign +1 scholar and +1 priest and is about the cost of monastery and temple combined, maybe a bit less?

Anyway, I withdraw my statement that temples might become overpowered. And I agree that they are almost usless atm except when they are demanded by UHV goals. There's one earlier suggestion that they can help with early stability problems that civs like the Timurids, Samanids, Seljuks or Chauhans may face. Especially Seljuks can quickly get into stability traps.
If that is not favored, I have a different proposal: give great prophets the ability to become saints for a piety bonus like in RFCE. That would make temples more useful (and the Gujarat UHV a bit easier) and also help a bit with stability, as piety translates into stability. And you need that boost beacuse if you need to build a temple first, that means later missionaries, which means non-state religion spread in the mean time which means stability hit which means need for persecution which means revolt and all sorts of...wait...this might actually be fun gameplay-wise.

On a different note about caravans while we're at it: they need to be balanced better. E.g. as Ghaznavids you can exploit caravans if you manage to vassalise a close-by party (Sindh or Ghorids, usually) and spam them. For a short distance trip (I rember Peshawar/Kabul to Balkh) a caravan nets you about 80-100g (that's 300g every 5 turns then), while a long distance trip (Lahore all the way to Cairo) nets you about 180g. I propose a lesser benefit for short hauls which players can easily mass and a much larger for long ones.

I'm playing as Oman and I failed the Portugese ports UHV. But, I checked the worldbuilder and there are none. So, something is wrong. The only thing I could think of is that Goa (which I took a while back) still has some Portugese culture in it. Could this be preventing my win? If so, is this the desired effect?

EDIT: I removed Goa in worldbuilder and I still don't get the UHV. Is the Portugese ports test working correctly?

OK, I found the bug. The second and third Oman UHV's are switched. From the code snippet I attached below, you can see that the Portugese ports UHV is coded as the second UHV, while the Gold UHV is coded as the third UHV. However, in the Victory interface, Gold UHV is second and Portugese ports UHV is third. Thus, the user sees them reversed, a bug. This explains why the Victory interface showed me as failing the Portugese ports UHV, when in fact I failed the Gold UHV.

# Omani UHV3: No Portuguese ports in Arabia, Persia and Africa in 1600
if iGameTurn == getTurnForYear(1600):
bFound = False
regionList = [21,22,23,27,28,29,30,31,32,33,34,35,38,39,48,52,54 ,67,70]
for regionID in regionList:
if utils.checkRegionOwnedCity(iPortugal, regionID, True):
bFound = True
print ("TEST1", iOman)
break
if bFound:
sd.setGoal(iOman, 1, 0)
else:
sd.setGoal(iOman, 1, 1)

# Omani UHV2: be the wealthiest civ in 1600
if iGameTurn == getTurnForYear(1600):
iGold = pOman.getGold()
for iCiv in range(iNumPlayers):
if iCiv != iOman and gc.getPlayer(iCiv).isAlive():
if gc.getPlayer(iCiv).getGold() > iGold:
print ("TEST2", iOman)
sd.setGoal(iOman, 2, 0)
return
sd.setGoal(iOman, 2, 1)

PS

So, I had 27k gold and still failed the UHV. Turns out little 3-city Kingdom of Mewa had 60k gold. Wow!!! Luckily I left my main siege force in Goa (from the Portugese attack) and was barely able to conquer them the year before the UHV expired, in 1600. Close call! The weird thing was that if they had 60k gold, I wondered why I only got like a few gold on capturing their cities. Oh well, at least I was able to squeak out the victory.

The problem is known and will be fixed as far as I understand.

@Embryodead
I have found the Vallhala of SoI Music. Mecca has been found in iTunes. Go to iTunes, and type in: Meyer Auditorium Concert Series into the "podcasts", and there you will find a treasure cove of "Asian" music, but mostly Middle Eastern, with some Byzantine thrown in ;)

Enjoy! :)

Also, can you please add Lower Egypt and Sinai to the Abbasid border provinces? Also what do you guys think about having Armenia being added to the Abbasid border provinces; especially since they controlled it at one point. In fact most of Persia should also be in their border provinces list

Also why does Akka spawn with Judaism only? I understand that their were Jews in Akka, but I think they should also Sunni Islam, and even Orthodox Christianity

Shouldn't the Seljuk's start at war with the Abbasids? I think that would help weaken their enormous power anyways.

Another report from my Ottoman game (first one is here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9705825&postcount=1158)):

-Took Constantinole in 1306AD
-Matchlock in 1420AD
-Military Drill in 1476AD

This means that we can basicly end the discussion of having too hard Ottoman UHV.

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0000-8.jpghttp://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0001-8.jpghttp://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0002-6.jpg

I haven't finished yet, but it is ~1545AD and I have pretty much everything except Hejaz and Egypt, Mamluks are crumbling after losing every significant battle. I vassalised Georgia, so I am interested to know if that works out like it is labelled in the UHV. I have one question though. Do I (or my vassal) have to have a city in every province in Anatolia, Caucasus, Mesopotamia, Levant, Hejaz and Egypt?

Epic battle:
http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0004-9.jpg

This is another bug (first one in the first post):
http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0005-8.jpg

@Jusos2108

You got a jihad against you because your piety is so low. I'm wondering how you were able to tech so fast though. I've been obsessively trying to figure out how to play the Ottomans on a historical timeline, but I can't tech quickly enough to start the conquests before the mid 1500's. As a history freak, I can't bring myself to take Constantinople until 1440, but I'm sure that shouldn't have that much to do with it. I think I'm just not very good at civ, so I'd appreciate some suggestions. Thanks.

The main thing to keep in mind is that some civs are easy and some are hard. Start with something like Armenians, Georgians or Byzantines on Sultan, and gradually move towards Ottomans.

@Jusos2108

You got a jihad against you because your piety is so low. I'm wondering how you were able to tech so fast though. I've been obsessively trying to figure out how to play the Ottomans on a historical timeline, but I can't tech quickly enough to start the conquests before the mid 1500's. As a history freak, I can't bring myself to take Constantinople until 1440, but I'm sure that shouldn't have that much to do with it. I think I'm just not very good at civ, so I'd appreciate some suggestions. Thanks.

I know why it was called upon me (the reason you mentioned and the fact that I was ass whipping Mamluks). However, the bug is that howcome I get to choose whether I participate in the Jihad against myself?:crazyeye:

You should take Constantinople asap and it does make a huge difference. Also tech for Mechanical Engineering first and take Matchlock with the Al-Jazari (?) workshop. My conquests started after I got Military Drill.

Some late replies, sorry for the delay but it's not that bad this time, I'm only 1 page behind now ;)

I still think that representing Nicea would be good, or else, after Constantinople falls, where is your capital going to be moved to? Also do you have Trebizond modded to break away if Constantinople falls? If not, I would recommend you do so. But overall, can't you spawn Nicea, and make Doryleion become a "town" improvement? I know Baldyr did this with his Russian scenario, having Novogord become a town, and automatically spawning St. Petersburg, so can't you do the same? I just think that having a historical capital which the AI AND human can retreat to, if Constantinople falls, would be good, rather than some far flung outpost. Not to mention, you could then change the name, "The Empire of Nicea"

I just don't want anything of this sort - if I was playing and one of my cities would suddenly turn into an improvement, while another one sprung up in a stupid location close to Constantinople, I'd quit the game. It would be a historical document that plays against you.

Also please consider making the following flag changes:
First off, I would recommend that you change the starting Byzantine flag, to this:
See attached

Well, that's labarum that Civ4 uses for Byzantium, it was used by Constantine and some other rulers but in this form it doesn't appear on any non-game flag I've seen, and I mean military flag, not seal or decoration or ecclesiastical flag etc. Several emperors used flags with Chi Rho in this form (http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nikephoros_Phokas_flag.svg) but it just doesn't look good, so I've chosen a flag of the late empire instead (actually used the eagle first, but it looked bad in-game).

And then, when you have the AI respawn in game, I would recommend changing their flag to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Palaiologos-Dynasty-Eagle.svg
OR
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Palaeologus_Dynasty.svg

That's the current flag used in-game.

I think the map is too big, wide and production too slow. I always spend 100 years for a building and fight all fights by mercenary. And early civ can't make up in teching like forever. Then I exited the game because bored.

What if we half the cost of all units and buildings except wonders? I think that'll make the game more intense.

Like in RFC and other modmods, each civ has its own production rate ranging from 200% to 75%, so it'd be helpful if you said which civ exactly feels slow. I know that Byzantium sure does, but one has to compensate for their starting situation.

This seems like a bug to me:
http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0012-6.jpg

I don't understand what is wrong here? Byzantium dies, the title is freed, and you get it since you meet the requirements.

BTW, how many cities you can have without the tech penalty?

10, but the penalty is smaller than in RFC (7%), and gets smaller with eras (down to 5%; in RFC it's 8% always)

Turkish Marash → Maras (<-Maraş)
Greek = Germanikeia (Γερμανίκεια)
Latin Germanicia

Edessa: Armenian Urhai, Arabic Ar-Ruha
Greek should be Ioustinoupolis (is it so?).

Thanks, fixed Marash; Edessa had those names already, Greek name was with J instead of I so that's fixed too.

About vassals:
I just had the PERFECT Ottoman game (Dardanellia razed on the 1st turn; Byz conquered in the 1340s even without bombards because they left the door kinda open; Karamanoglu vassalizing immediately and taking all the unproductive cities --> tech rate at 100% almost all the time) and now I have a question about vassals, respectively what they conditions for them breaking away might be.

I vassalized the Karamanids, Safavids and Yemen. For the Safavids a stat came up: territory size related to master (free at 50%), pop (can't remember) and land area related to original (free at 50%). I spent the entire 17th century in slight fear the Safavids would DOW and try to break away because they went on to conquer ALL of Persia from the collapsed Timurids. At the end their territory was 75% of my size. Should they have tried to break away or is there a bug or some other mechanic that does not let this happen?

Frankly, I have no idea, but it's not changed in SoI, at least I haven't touched it :crazyeye: So it's basically down to: how it works in BTS - and I'm not particularly good at BTS rules...

@ Tigranes

Thanks, but I've actually won as Abbasids, Fatimids, Ayyubids, and Mamluks so I feel I should be somewhat up for the challenge of the Ottomans.

@ Jusos2108

My bad; declaring war on yourself certainly would be paradoxical!

I'm really set on trying to keep out of Constantinople as long as possible before the UHV deadline because I really try to stick to history as much as possible; it's much more satisfying for me to win that way because, as I mentioned, I'm a history freak (AKA a history MA). I do go right for Mechanical Engineering, but couldn't imagine being able to research Black Powder quickly enough to get Matchlock with Al-Jazari's Workshop (before Mamluks build it). I also have been trying to trade/research/bulb for Banking early enough to build Grand Bazaar with a GE in Constantinople before Mamluks (as you probably guessed, I try to build Wonders in their historical locations). Anyway, you probably don't wan't to get so in depth on the strategy, but thanks for the help - I'm sure I'll figure it out at some point!

I don't understand what is wrong here? Byzantium dies, the title is freed, and you get it since you meet the requirements.

Well yes, but how can they collapse, if they hold the title, which prevents you from collapsing?:confused:


@ Jusos2108

I do go right for Mechanical Engineering, but couldn't imagine being able to research Black Powder quickly enough to get Matchlock with Al-Jazari's Workshop (before Mamluks build it). I also have been trying to trade/research/bulb for Banking early enough to build Grand Bazaar with a GE in Constantinople before Mamluks (as you probably guessed, I try to build Wonders in their historical locations). Anyway, you probably don't wan't to get so in depth on the strategy, but thanks for the help - I'm sure I'll figure it out at some point!

I researched Black Powder in ~15 turns. That should be possible even without Constantinople. Just make sure that your science never goes below 90%. Also as Embryodead mentioned in the post above, research penalty occurs after 10 cities. Thus you should take ten cities asap and then focus on improving their science output. Spawn a GP to speed things up with a Golden Age. Also trade stuff around for gold and gold per turn. That's pretty much all that I can think at the moment and I don't consider these hints as secrets.:)

Could you please add the "Claim the title of Shahnshah" for the Seljuks, please! Because I think its better suited for them, rather then the cultural victory UHV, which to me, doesn't make too much sense.

Also as the Seljuk's I would strongly recommend adding Archers to Merv and Herat, when the flip, as I find it somewhat hard to hold onto them early on.

Also can't you have a civilization change its flags in the game at a certain date?

Just finished a game as Antioch: no problems and a lot of fun!

@Dafiden Could you post the final world picture after the victory? I am really curious to compare the world situation to see how many civs were actually alive. At what date did you get an open border requirements?

I must agree that Antioch is one of my most favorite civs to play.

@ Turk. I agree about Cultural victory. I guess, embryodead wanted a longer game for a human player and thus he pushed the 3rd UHV beyond historical reality. The culltural aspect came from this quote I suppose:

The Seljuks were also patrons of art and literature. Under the Seljuks universities were founded.[29] Their reign is characterized by Persian astronomers such as Omar Khayyám, and the Persian philosopher al-Ghazali.

In fact by 1200 Seljuks, as a civ, were already over, only Sultanate of Rum lasted longer, but we have Rum in the game already!

However, to replace 3rd UHV with Shahanshah is just very easy. I routinely claim the status in first 40 turns just for the sake of stability -- one just need to conquire rebels. How about -- no city to barbarians by 1260? Sounds like the one for Kwarezm, but, well this sounds more realistic than culture. Otherwise -- be the first to reach Mongol Invasions era could be imposed to make some room for the UB of Seljuks.

@ Embryodead Could we place Derbent and Alamaut on the map, pretty please? :) Derbent was always a very important city (and we need one for North Caucases anyway). As for Alamut -- how can we have Hashishins without Alamut on the map? Does not look right :nono:

Can you create and add new civilization - Latin Empire?

Can you create and add new civilization - Latin Empire?

Oh, we've already been over this plenty of times. Right now, we have a barbarians "4th Crusade", that's as far as Embroydead seems to want to take it.

@Dafiden Could you post the final world picture after the victory? I am really curious to compare the world situation to see how many civs were actually alive. At what date did you get an open border requirements?

I must agree that Antioch is one of my most favorite civs to play.


Yes, there are a lot of things going on which makes it interesting play.

Yes, see attached final world picture!

I completed the open borders UHV in 1223 (I left the golden age year in the attached screenshot for you to see).

267647

How is the "Most Culturally Advanced Civ" UHV of Samanid measured? Is there any way I can check how close I am? Thanks.

P.S. Seems difficult since I tried once and had a ton of culture (relatively) but was smashed by the barbs (Qarakhanid) before 1000 (deadline for culture UHV) since I had no focus on military (erroneously thinking I was quite isolated).

If you have enough espionage at everyone, you can check the culture graph.

If you have enough espionage at everyone, you can check the culture graph.

Thank you. But, I didn't have enough. Anyway, I put a print in the python and I could see the total culture in the debug log. That helped.

I recommend that you use the culture slider instead of building culture buildings, otherwise you'll be raided. The top five cities screen and the victory conditions screen will give some some hints were you're at with your culture.

AOS9001!The Latin empire as the independent civilization is better than barbarians!

Yes, there are a lot of things going on which makes it interesting play.

Yes, see attached final world picture!

I completed the open borders UHV in 1223 (I left the golden age year in the attached screenshot for you to see.


I can see that almost all the Christian civs are dead on this picture. Whom did you lure into Open Border agreement then? :crazyeye:

AOS9001!The Latin empire as the independent civilization is better than barbarians!

But then the player would just be at peace with them within a few turns anyway, and they would be just wandering around the map, until another random civilization declares war on them. Basically Barbarians make sense (although I think they should have a different colour scheme), in general barbs are more aggressive too.

I can see that almost all the Christian civs are dead on this picture. Whom did you lure into Open Border agreement then? :crazyeye:

Byzantium
Jerusalem
Georgia
Zengid
Yemen
Sindh

Obiously, Georgia and Jerusalem were alive in 1223.

I recommend that you use the culture slider instead of building culture buildings, otherwise you'll be raided. The top five cities screen and the victory conditions screen will give some some hints were you're at with your culture.

Ah, I forgot about that. I did it a different way.

HINT:
One city you get right away provides lots of food, which is good for generating ___, which can in turn generate a lot of culture.

ANSWER:
"Great People". Merv flips right away. Build the race track and library there and put great artists in ASAP while getting workers there ASAP to get the extra resource food (barley & wheat). You can easily get the winning culture with one great artist if you use the great work (3000 culture). If you prefer the culture and gold per turn, you might need two.

I love this mod, but can't figure out how to get civics over say +4 stability even using the tips in this thread. I also hate how my expansion rating goes low if try and take over the world.

Some more minor suggestions:
1: Do Hashids, Quarmatains, Bedouins and maybe Hashishins have the desert adapted promotion?
2.Why do Armenia and Yemen start seeing Al-Quds?

On the Persecution civic - also on persecution for vassals:
The no non-state religion spread part of it either does not seem to work or at least does not override scripted religion spreads. It played a game as Chauhans today and reading the UHV text one does think Persecution might just be the right civic for that. It does NOT prevent Sunni Islam from popping up in the major cities I had conquered by 1300 (Dhara Nagari, Anhilwara, Delhi). These are scripted religion spreads along with the arrival of the respawning Sultanates in Hindustan, aren't they? At least Gujarat respawned on me and luckily Malwa didn't. Still, I consider this a joke as it strips the civic of one important purpose. The respawning sultanates can still becopme Sunni if they get missionaries.

Well, I reconquered Anhilwara. I did not get the option to purge so I vassalized Gujarat after engaging a prosecutor in the city and forced them to convert to Hinduism and adopt Persecution. A couple of turns later Sunni Islam spread in Dwarka (also seems scripted as it seems to happen in every game about the time). I gifted a prosecutor to Gujarat after sending it to Dwarka. They didn't use and had him just sit there. That does not seem right to me, either.

So eventually I reloaded and just reconquered and purged everything.
And that's today's report and religious persecution.

P.S.: Is this thread eventually going to be converted into a subforum?

I was just playing as the Fatamids and had a few questions/concerns.

Do the Mamluks not spawn if I am playing as the Fatamids? I assume not because they didn't when I reached their spawn date, but I didn't know if that had to do with my being in a Golden Age at the time.

Another request is about mercenary flipping. I was using an almost entirely merc army to try to suppress the Crusaders, and my units kept flipping like mad. I understand that units flip to help from smashing the upstart civs, but I don't understand why my mercenary units kept flipping so often. I would lose up to five or six units in a single turn. My only qualm is that the mercenary units have that promotion that helps prevent revolts because the mercenaries are not ethnic, but I don't understand why they would, in turn, help the crusaders. They were from random, mostly Arabic places (at least from their names) and would have almost absolutely no purpose in helping the Christians. I had more than enough money to pay them and had a very high gpt rate. The Crusaders- the KoJ at least- got another entire stack after I refused the flip, so I don't understand why they even need so many flipped units to begin with.

Another thing was that one of my mercenaries also had a GG attached and still flipped, "killing" him in the process. Is there any way to prevent GG units from flipping?

Neither Ayyubids nor Mamluks spawn on an active Fatimid player as long as he is stable.

It sounds a little peculiar that you lose so many units per turn (the usual amount is 1-2 as far as I remember), but anyhow you should not have got into a situation in which your city (Al Quds, right?) flips away. Either agreeing to the flip or, even better, capturing the city after the spawn+core flip of the crusaders is the more efficient way to go. Anyway, you should stop losing units once you've cleared out of their core area. That's the way to go if you can't beat them and make peace quickly.

A different odd little thing I saw today: A barb Mongol HA and a barb Kara Koyonlu HL guarding the same city (Wasit). Seems like different waves of barbs from different periods are allied.

Marines: they're kinda cool. Is there any way to build them, or are they only (and rarely) for hire?

I think you can train Marines after certain tech been unlocked.

I came up with quite a great idea recently!
How about, right before the Mongols, come streaming onto the map, how about, you have it so that, the Khwarzmians have an event which happens, which states, "Mongol ambassadors have come to your court, what shall we do with them?" (or something like that), and then if you choose to kill them, you will be invaded full on, BUT if you decided to become a vassal of the Mongol's, then you end up paying money each turn to the Mongols, and perhaps some other penalty as well, BUT you are largly spared from the Mongol hoard!
How does that sound?

It was actually discussed before, and no, I have no plans for making any alternate reality "No Mongols" scenario - too much depends on Mongols sweeping half of the map.

There needs to be a greater penalty to massacring a religious minority; currently its too easy, and JUST getting a bit of unhappiness, and lower population is not too convincing either. I would therefore recommend, having it reduce your stability AND cause unrest for a few more turns, then usual.
AND/OR perhaps there should be a small chance, that when you persecute a cities religion, the cities minorities rise up in arms, as peasant spearman, and have 1-3 somewhere around the city

I see no problems with it - you lose population, you get unhappiness, you already lose stability (because of unhappiness) AND receive a long-lasting diplomatic penalty. Playing as Ottomans I didn't have a single OB because the whole world hated me, everyone had -10 or -12 from persecution, including my fellow Sunnis (for razing cities with Sunni pop).

Why does the Shahmenshah, spread Zorastriansim? How does that makes sense at all?

Shahanshah is an epic about pre-Islamic, Zoroastrian Persia. At least according to wikipedia, the book greatly contributed to the preservation of Persian and Zoroastrian identity.

The texture for the Javilenmen should change; I don't know any unit, that looks like that anyways. Plus if you are using them as rebels, I would make them look more the part, as I don't think ANY body was using Javilenmen, that looked like that in their ranks

Which one? There's like 6 Javelinmen units in the game - Arab, Turkish x 2, Caucasian, Greek, Scythian(used for Hindus). There's a lot of similar Javelinmen units in BC, for reference, only the Arab one looks really bad to me - he's too ancient, but I don't think I can make a better one - I only modify existing units etc. Bakuel is working, or at least planning on a full Arabic set like he did for Turks and other civs, so that will eventually replace all Arab units.

BUGS:
Playing as Abbasids Easy I got the UHV for 3 Holy Shrines, BUT I ONLY controlled Baghdad and Al-Qods, don't you need to capture Makkah, as your 3rd holy city, to accomplish the UHV?

Thanks, corrected. It was indeed checking for only 2 shrines.

So, I had 27k gold and still failed the UHV. Turns out little 3-city Kingdom of Mewa had 60k gold. Wow!!! Luckily I left my main siege force in Goa (from the Portugese attack) and was barely able to conquer them the year before the UHV expired, in 1600. Close call! The weird thing was that if they had 60k gold, I wondered why I only got like a few gold on capturing their cities. Oh well, at least I was able to squeak out the victory.

Thanks for the report, it was indeed fixed earlier, and to make sure the UHV is completable I changed it to a fixed amount of 50k gold.

For that matter, the gold you get from city capture in Civ4 is not related to the player's gold, like it was in previous versions of Civ. It's a semi-random value based on city population and turns that have passed since last looting.

Edessa had those names already, Greek name was with J instead of I so that's fixed too.

Oh then my memory doesn't serve me well. I don't happen to play Civ very often these days.

Does no one find it weird, that you can build a Sunni/Shi'ite Madrasah BEFORE a Mosque? I mean, Madrasah's are built WITH a Mosque, as an attachment. I think that you should have to build a Mosque FIRST, and then it can unlock a Madrasah

About the temples: I see you argue by the historical logic of things, which would mean that the change would only apply to muslims civs. Because churches and monasteries can exist independently from another, can't they (dunno about Hindus...)? That affects game balance, I'd say. How about merging mosque and madrasah into one building that can assign +1 scholar and +1 priest and is about the cost of monastery and temple combined, maybe a bit less?

Anyway, I withdraw my statement that temples might become overpowered. And I agree that they are almost usless atm except when they are demanded by UHV goals. There's one earlier suggestion that they can help with early stability problems that civs like the Timurids, Samanids, Seljuks or Chauhans may face. Especially Seljuks can quickly get into stability traps.
If that is not favored, I have a different proposal: give great prophets the ability to become saints for a piety bonus like in RFCE. That would make temples more useful (and the Gujarat UHV a bit easier) and also help a bit with stability, as piety translates into stability. And you need that boost beacuse if you need to build a temple first, that means later missionaries, which means non-state religion spread in the mean time which means stability hit which means need for persecution which means revolt and all sorts of...wait...this might actually be fun gameplay-wise.

Thanks for the suggestions. I have not changed anything pertaining temples yet, though I planned to just add the stability bonus. Madrasah doesn't need a Mosque because other "Monasteries" don't need a Temple either. I don't mind if buildings are changed to be different across religions, but game balance must be maintained. For that matter I originally had one special building for each religion like RFCE does, but removed it since religions here are fixed and the ideas weren't really good tbh and I ended up using them as UBs (Scriptorium for Catholics, Ikoner's Studio for Orthodox, Public Library for Muslims, Mausoleum for Hindus).

Stability bonus is problematic in that it can easily add +10 or more Stability for civs that not necessarily need one. Possibly this can be done by taking the bonus away from Debtor's Prison, which means it will simply be available earlier, and cheaper. Also note that Temples already add +1 Stability by reducing the religious unrest by 1, so each temple would be really +2... Maybe "Cathedrals" then?

Anyway I collected all the ideas so far and will think about it.

How about less Shi'a Islam spreading to Georgia, or Georgian AI being more active at dealing with religions. Because currently Poti is very often Shi'a only without any other religions.

Great Embryodead is catching up!:)

I have been waiting for posting my report on Ak Kouynly and Safavids. Oh, and don't worry it won't be as nearly as long as the Turk's ones.;)

Timurid UHV #3 does not check in 1500.

Remaining replies + some info:

@Embryodead
I have found the Vallhala of SoI Music. Mecca has been found in iTunes. Go to iTunes, and type in: Meyer Auditorium Concert Series into the "podcasts", and there you will find a treasure cove of "Asian" music, but mostly Middle Eastern, with some Byzantine thrown in ;)

Thanks, I downloaded all of it. It's all live, with cheering public etc. but some of it can be edited, it'll just take a while... that's like 10 hours of music :crazyeye:

Also, can you please add Lower Egypt and Sinai to the Abbasid border provinces? Also what do you guys think about having Armenia being added to the Abbasid border provinces; especially since they controlled it at one point. In fact most of Persia should also be in their border provinces list

Well, sure it can be done, though it's mostly irrelevant, as Abbasids are already historically limited to Mesopotamia by 10th century.

Also why does Akka spawn with Judaism only? I understand that their were Jews in Akka, but I think they should also Sunni Islam, and even Orthodox Christianity

OK, I just didn't bother to modify the city spawning function to allow more than 1 religion, it's fixed now and you've got Sunnis & Orthodox there.

Shouldn't the Seljuk's start at war with the Abbasids? I think that would help weaken their enormous power anyways.

Seljuks actually restored the Abbasid Caliphate (which was occupied by Buyids) so that would be rather ahistorical. Wars between Seljuks and Abbassids started some 100 years later. When/if Buyids are added it will make this situation much more clearer.

I'm really set on trying to keep out of Constantinople as long as possible before the UHV deadline because I really try to stick to history as much as possible; it's much more satisfying for me to win that way because, as I mentioned, I'm a history freak (AKA a history MA). I do go right for Mechanical Engineering, but couldn't imagine being able to research Black Powder quickly enough to get Matchlock with Al-Jazari's Workshop (before Mamluks build it). I also have been trying to trade/research/bulb for Banking early enough to build Grand Bazaar with a GE in Constantinople before Mamluks (as you probably guessed, I try to build Wonders in their historical locations). Anyway, you probably don't wan't to get so in depth on the strategy, but thanks for the help - I'm sure I'll figure it out at some point!

I've captured Constantinople in 1440 in my game so it's possible. There's no fixed strategy for this, i.e. I didn't even think of going for al-Jazari's myself and stole some intermediate techs instead.

I know why it was called upon me (the reason you mentioned and the fact that I was ass whipping Mamluks). However, the bug is that howcome I get to choose whether I participate in the Jihad against myself?:crazyeye:

Fixed :D and thanks for the Ottoman report, I guess they are more or less fine now.

Well yes, but how can they collapse, if they hold the title, which prevents you from collapsing?:confused:

The title of Roman Emperor prevents you from collapsing *as long as Constantinople is under control* Once THE city falls, the Empire falls.

Could you please add the "Claim the title of Shahnshah" for the Seljuks, please! Because I think its better suited for them, rather then the cultural victory UHV, which to me, doesn't make too much sense.

Why Shahanshah? For Seljuks it's not historical at all, and they start with almost all of Persia already. On the other hand, they were patrons of Persian art and founded numerous Nizamiyyas. I can lower the date though if it feels too stretched - there's probably no need to turtle that far.

Also can't you have a civilization change its flags in the game at a certain date?

Couldn't make it work for the active player.

@ Embryodead Could we place Derbent and Alamaut on the map, pretty please? :) Derbent was always a very important city (and we need one for North Caucases anyway). As for Alamut -- how can we have Hashishins without Alamut on the map? Does not look right :nono:

Alamut and it's not even a city and there's no space for it, and no purpose - it'd just end up as another Persian city, which it wasn't. There's space for Derbent, but what would be its purpose? It'll just always end up as part of Georgia, which is exactly what it shouldn't be. Yes, Shirvanshahs would be a nice mini-civ, if only for the fact they lasted for longer than any other Muslim civ on the map ;)

I love this mod, but can't figure out how to get civics over say +4 stability even using the tips in this thread. I also hate how my expansion rating goes low if try and take over the world.

Thanks. Expansion stability encourages the player to play historically, a bread and butter of RFC. As for the Civics, this category provides the least bonuses (or penalties). While Expansion and Economy can go as low/high as -100 to +100, Civics are a minor category that usually dwindle between like -15 (from Anarchy) and +5 (with good civic combos), so this is normal.

BTW I included your Imam Ali Mosque in the next patch.

Some more minor suggestions:
1: Do Hashids, Quarmatains, Bedouins and maybe Hashishins have the desert adapted promotion?
2.Why do Armenia and Yemen start seeing Al-Quds?

1. Yes.
2. It's a holy city / pilgrimage site for both Christians and Muslims, so all Christians and Muslims know its location.

On the Persecution civic - also on persecution for vassals:
The no non-state religion spread part of it either does not seem to work or at least does not override scripted religion spreads. It played a game as Chauhans today and reading the UHV text one does think Persecution might just be the right civic for that. It does NOT prevent Sunni Islam from popping up in the major cities I had conquered by 1300 (Dhara Nagari, Anhilwara, Delhi). These are scripted religion spreads along with the arrival of the respawning Sultanates in Hindustan, aren't they? At least Gujarat respawned on me and luckily Malwa didn't. Still, I consider this a joke as it strips the civic of one important purpose. The respawning sultanates can still becopme Sunni if they get missionaries.

Well, I reconquered Anhilwara. I did not get the option to purge so I vassalized Gujarat after engaging a prosecutor in the city and forced them to convert to Hinduism and adopt Persecution. A couple of turns later Sunni Islam spread in Dwarka (also seems scripted as it seems to happen in every game about the time). I gifted a prosecutor to Gujarat after sending it to Dwarka. They didn't use and had him just sit there. That does not seem right to me, either.

So eventually I reloaded and just reconquered and purged everything.
And that's today's report and religious persecution.

You're right, scripted religion events ignore the Civic effect. That was easy to fix, fortunately :) As for persecutors, I'm not sure what happened there, possibly Gujarat is just too tolerant (each civ has a threshold for other religions and won't persecute beyond that).

P.S.: Is this thread eventually going to be converted into a subforum?

I haven't asked yet though my feelings are that it's unlikely, given it's still one thread and I don't have much ideas for new ones, other than for the manual that I'm working on right now. Basically I'd have to convince Rhye and then Rhye would have to convince Thunderfall.

Do the Mamluks not spawn if I am playing as the Fatamids? I assume not because they didn't when I reached their spawn date, but I didn't know if that had to do with my being in a Golden Age at the time.

They can (re)sprawn after the birth date if your stability isn't great.

Another request is about mercenary flipping. I was using an almost entirely merc army to try to suppress the Crusaders, and my units kept flipping like mad. I understand that units flip to help from smashing the upstart civs, but I don't understand why my mercenary units kept flipping so often. I would lose up to five or six units in a single turn. My only qualm is that the mercenary units have that promotion that helps prevent revolts because the mercenaries are not ethnic, but I don't understand why they would, in turn, help the crusaders. They were from random, mostly Arabic places (at least from their names) and would have almost absolutely no purpose in helping the Christians. I had more than enough money to pay them and had a very high gpt rate. The Crusaders- the KoJ at least- got another entire stack after I refused the flip, so I don't understand why they even need so many flipped units to begin with.

Another thing was that one of my mercenaries also had a GG attached and still flipped, "killing" him in the process. Is there any way to prevent GG units from flipping?

The chance for flipping is 50/50 IIRC, so if you send 10 units in it's quite possible to lose 5. This mechanic is unchanged from RFC and I'd rather not break it by making mercenaries (or Great Generals) immune to flipping. It would be ridiculously easy for the human player to kill newborn AI civs by abusing this. Gameplay over realism basically.

A different odd little thing I saw today: A barb Mongol HA and a barb Kara Koyonlu HL guarding the same city (Wasit). Seems like different waves of barbs from different periods are allied.

"Barbarians" are one civ, no way around it. Kara Koyunlu etc. are just unit names.

Marines: they're kinda cool. Is there any way to build them, or are they only (and rarely) for hire?

The crossbow-bearing marines are from Africa and Andalusia, so they are only available as rare mercenaries.

Timurid UHV #3 does not check in 1500.

Sorry, it checks in 1600, frankly I don't remember which was the intended date...

On another note:

I added a simple graphical feature to fix a problem that always annoyed me in historical mods... namely, city art is now primarily based on location, rather than the owner. No more cities suddenly changing to something completely different on city conquest. Cities in Egypt, Arabia and Mesopotamia always use Arabic city graphics, cities in Persia and Transoxiana always use the Middle Eastern graphics and so on. Exceptions include areas like Anatolia - they use Mediterranean/Byzantine style, but once captured by Muslim civ they turn into a mixed Mediterranean/Middle Eastern fusion. Similarly India can switch between Hindu and ME styles.

City name missing in Sindh, right under the gold, I named in Mansura in my game. Gujarat must go down early, I was waiting too long and they had tons of units!


Also why is it that when you masacre the disbelivers you loose half of the population, but Presecutor only gets rid of 1 population point? Must be more or less the same, right?:confused:

City name missing in Sindh, right under the gold, I named in Mansura in my game. Gujarat must go down early, I was waiting too long and they had tons of units!


Also why is it that when you masacre the disbelivers you loose half of the population, but Presecutor only gets rid of 1 population point? Must be more or less the same, right?:confused:

Logically it makes sense.

Prosecute is the state attempting to root out and persecute the religious minority through the courts. It is relatively orderly, organized, not prone to excess, and will result in many people going underground or converting to the majority religion. Less loss of life.

Massacre the disbelievers is a violent act occurring in the context of war. It is disorganized, prone to excess, and results in the slaughter of many people, some of whom might not even be that religion.

On another note:

I added a simple graphical feature to fix a problem that always annoyed me in historical mods... namely, city art is now primarily based on location, rather than the owner. No more cities suddenly changing to something completely different on city conquest. Cities in Egypt, Arabia and Mesopotamia always use Arabic city graphics, cities in Persia and Transoxiana always use the Middle Eastern graphics and so on. Exceptions include areas like Anatolia - they use Mediterranean/Byzantine style, but once captured by Muslim civ they turn into a mixed Mediterranean/Middle Eastern fusion. Similarly India can switch between Hindu and ME styles.
Awesome! This has bothered me for a long time as well. :goodjob:

Could you add the Al-Masjid al-Nabawi to Medina? Right now it's a useless city unless you want the sulfur and it is very razeable. But it's a very important city in Islam and some people also go here as part of the hajj. 2nd holiest site in Islam should cause you to suffer a piety loss if you're Muslim and you raze it. But would the AI be able to factor the piety loss into their decision? Maybe it should receive some gold bonus from pilgrims.

Why are the number of Spies limited?

Could you stop the Spies from magically teleporting to your capital after a successful mission? I always thought that was unrealistic.

Hashashins don't work too well right now. They should be invisible to everyone except other Hashashins (and maybe Spies but I'm not sure). But can they be changed so that they spend espionage points to perform missions? People have suggested that they attack the weakest unit in a stack, but they didn't kill off whole units, they killed specific people.

Can you give India a title and add one if you control Jerusalem for Catholic/Sunni/Shia?

When civs razed a city in real life, did they kill off all of the population or did they move some of them to other locations? I'm not too sure about receiving a diplo penalty for razing a city.


I haven't asked yet though my feelings are that it's unlikely, given it's still one thread and I don't have much ideas for new ones, other than for the manual that I'm working on right now. Basically I'd have to convince Rhye and then Rhye would have to convince Thunderfall.


One for bugs, one for weird stuff happening in game, one for gameplay help. I'm sure there's more.

Ok, wow. I have been playing this mod for three weeks or so pretty steady but have refrained from posting any comments/suggestions until I have read the entire thread, which I just finished so here goes.

First off, good freaking job man. This mod is fantastic in all areas. The map is superb for gameplay, historic accuracy and overall looks. Combined with the unit art and the music this mod definitely has a "feel" to it that is unique and professional. The diverse options for gameplay based on the tremendous number of civs and UHV is jaw dropping. This mod is an entire game unto itself!

I am also incredibly impressed at the way you have balanced historical accuracy and gameplay, especially with all your fans chiming in from time to time asking about their favorite city or civs inclusion to the mod. As far as this goes I think you are on the right track, gameplay needs to take precedent over the ability to model every piece of history. Otherwise, its just a documentary.

Anyway, I am all caught up with the discussion so expect to hear from me from time to time if I have questions or suggestions.

thanks again for all your hard work. I wanted to hold off on Civ 5 and your mod has given me the perfect excuse to!

P.S. a couple of questions

which tech opens up horse archers? i can't seem to find them on the tech tree or ever get to a point where i can build them.

Have all civs UHV been proven to work and be balanced? If not which civs need more work? I would like to contribute what i can which is just playtesting etc, but as well, if I want to just play a game I don't want to be trying to get a UHV that is impossible.

With that in mind, is there anything I can do to help you out? Any changes you would like to see tested more extensively? I don't have any modding knowledge or experience but would be more then willing to learn how to do easy things like change civolopedia entries or type up civic guides/strategy guides.

When civs razed a city in real life, did they kill off all of the population or did they move some of them to other locations? I'm not too sure about receiving a diplo penalty for razing a city.


Well, even if you're deporting a whole city, it's just that. Imagine if a modern nation forced a whole city to move and then burnt it to the ground. I'd imagine there'd still be a diplomacy penalty for that.

which tech opens up horse archers? i can't seem to find them on the tech tree or ever get to a point where i can build them.

Not all civs get horse archers, some of them have horsemen instead. Generally, the civs on the eastern side of the map get horse archers, while the civs on the western side have horsemen.

Okey, time for some feedback:

The rest of the Ottoman game
-Vassalage worked for the UHV
-I got Flintlock in 1586
-Finished conquering around 1590
-Stability only dropped to -29
-I really enjoyed palying as them and it didn't feel to be too long.:D After I had gotten the UHVs I just teched though and managed to finish the tech tree on the same turn that the UHV triggered.

Some screenshots:
http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0002-7.jpghttp://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0007-8.jpghttp://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0006-9.jpghttp://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0005-9.jpghttp://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0004-10.jpg

Ak Kouynly
-Diayrbakir was fine, it can grow to 10, which is enough. However, Ak Kouynly's don't have access to horses, unless they want to conquer Cilicia. Maybe some could be added next to Diayrbakir.
-You can't really use their UU, since it is so far in the tech tree.
-Their stability is really bad, mainly because the cities that flip are really crappy and undeveloped, perhaps the Divan could be slightly cheaper or give more stability..?

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0011-5.jpghttp://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0012-7.jpg


Mamluks

-They are probably one of the easiest civs in the game, no real issues, except that they are overpowered


General stuff

-Timurids are doing better in this patch:goodjob:
-Respawning civs should get a stability boost
-When a civ respawns, the relationships with other civs should be reset.
-I believe that one of my ships died due to the plague..?
-You don't get piety bonus from declaring war on the infidels
-Gifting units should be disabled. The reason: when I play as Mamluks, for example, I build catholic missionaries and give them to Karamans/Ak Kouynly, so that I maximise my Shrine income. Also they get the piety penalty from spreading non-state religion, I just get more gold per turn.
-War weariness is too strong for these times and circumstances
-The AI never builds the Spiral Minaret
-Do some naval vessels count the ocean tiles wrong, when using the Go-To option??
-AI Ottomans suck and the reason is usually Karamans. I know that you have reduced their respawn size, but the problem is that they flip old Rum cities around Anatolia

Here are some examples:

Mamluk game:
http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0000-9.jpghttp://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0009-7.jpg

Safavid game:
http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0015-3.jpg

They were also crappy in my second Safavid game. I will post my Safavid report later.

The AI never builds the Spiral Minaret


I confirm it. As Mughals I discovered that nobody had built Spiral Minaret. Same is true for every game I play. On the contrary Shaliman Gardens were built by Bahmani Sultanate just in 10 turns after I had spawn.

Could you change iBaseAttackOddsChange for all civs to zero? IMHO it's unfair that the AI sees incorrect battle odds. Mamluks end up building a lot of Marksmen that they try to attack with, but Marksmen suck at offense.

The Mamluk UU is also very far in the tech tree and by the time they get to it they've already conquered Levant and Hejaz. Perhaps you could have their UU replace Heavy Lancer instead of Heavy Cavalry?

I think that the reason Mamluks are so powerful is that they have no opposition for the Levant. If you eliminate Karaman, then the Ottomans will probably be able to fight them for it, instead of being boxed in Western Anatolia. But I have no problem having them control the Levant right off the bat. After all, IRL they controlled it by 1289 and had forced Cilicia into submission. They had to fight off Mongol attacks though. Do the Mongols try to take Syria?

Yeah, the AI builds the Spiral Minaret 1 time out of 20. And that's what you hope for playing the Safavids atm.

On a different note: There's a flood plains/desert tile 1N2E of Urganj which is not next to fresh water and also inaccessible.

Yeah, it's been mentioned before that the Mamluks become too dominant. Maybe, if getting the Ottoman AI into the Levant is too difficult, how about respawning the Nubians with their UU Longbowmen tech and better stability? And maybe also make the Ayyubids last a little longer against the Mamluks?
It's true that you don't get to the Mamluk UU naturally, but the same applies for the Mughals. As Mamluks, I beeline for Lanternas. Usually I reach it before the Portugese get driven back by the Bahmani and the Omani - and then I just research techs that unlock wonders while I get the navy rolling. As Mughals, you beeline Imperialism and usually do not research Metallurgy (Bombophant) and Admin Reforms (Mausoleum) in between, do you?

How do you become Hindu Saint as Gujarat in some 100 turns? Is it even possible? I was able to stop the war amoung Hindu brothers and convert Muslim Sindh to Hinduism, but that counts for nothing, I have observed. Techs and buildings did not take me too far... Do I get more piety if my cities are big and Hindu?

@Edead
Do you know when the next patch will be released?
Also I was wondering if you could make Tsar Simeon's invasion of Byzantium, a bit more organized :p
In the sense that currently its just him leading a unit, and a bunch of random units; if you could put them into one strong stack, I think that would be a lot better. Plus having them aimed at first Adrainople, and then Constantinople would be better, I think that would be much better, and a lot more organized :)

Could you add the Al-Masjid al-Nabawi to Medina?

Yep, already added! It reduces Anarchy time to 0 if your state religion is Sunni.

I also added "Ibn Battuta's Embassy" after all, it contains a name but sounds nice and retro ;) Rihla was sponsored and written in Morocco, but Ibn Battuta was employed as advisor & ambassador in India, although his embassy to China kind of failed on the way. The wonder maintains contact with all civs and reveals parts of the world map.

Also adding Imam Reza Shrine, since the graphics are freed.

Why are the number of Spies limited?

Well, ask Firaxis... I can change it of course, but why?

Could you stop the Spies from magically teleporting to your capital after a successful mission? I always thought that was unrealistic.

I'd rather not - realistic or not, it's a good mechanic IMO.

Hashashins don't work too well right now. They should be invisible to everyone except other Hashashins (and maybe Spies but I'm not sure). But can they be changed so that they spend espionage points to perform missions? People have suggested that they attack the weakest unit in a stack, but they didn't kill off whole units, they killed specific people.

I agree in general. Invisibility would be too powerful IMO. Attacking the weakest unit is a possibility, I'll have to steal the code from somewhere... at least I know I've seen it somewhere.

As for the last sentence, the article on wikipedia mentions that on several occassions Hashshashins fought as a unit in open field.

Can you give India a title and add one if you control Jerusalem for Catholic/Sunni/Shia?

I added "Protector of the Holy Sepulchre" for Christians. As for India, I can't think of any - the one proposed earlier wasn't used by any civ in game. Sultan of Delhi, Mughal Emperor, Kings/Rajas - all are local titles.

When civs razed a city in real life, did they kill off all of the population or did they move some of them to other locations? I'm not too sure about receiving a diplo penalty for razing a city.

Depends... Timur massacred Sunnis when he saw fit. It's a good penalty for human players going ballistic on cities... Migrations aren't a bad idea however, and shouldn't be too complicated. Something along the lines of "Migrants from the destroyed city of ... arrived at ... Shall they be allowed to settle down here?" etc.

Ok, wow. I have been playing this mod for three weeks or so pretty steady but have refrained from posting any comments/suggestions until I have read the entire thread, which I just finished so here goes.

First off, good freaking job man. This mod is fantastic in all areas. The map is superb for gameplay, historic accuracy and overall looks. Combined with the unit art and the music this mod definitely has a "feel" to it that is unique and professional. The diverse options for gameplay based on the tremendous number of civs and UHV is jaw dropping. This mod is an entire game unto itself!

I am also incredibly impressed at the way you have balanced historical accuracy and gameplay, especially with all your fans chiming in from time to time asking about their favorite city or civs inclusion to the mod. As far as this goes I think you are on the right track, gameplay needs to take precedent over the ability to model every piece of history. Otherwise, its just a documentary.

Anyway, I am all caught up with the discussion so expect to hear from me from time to time if I have questions or suggestions.

thanks again for all your hard work. I wanted to hold off on Civ 5 and your mod has given me the perfect excuse to!

Thanks :D

which tech opens up horse archers? i can't seem to find them on the tech tree or ever get to a point where i can build them.

Horsemanship, but as other have said, only civs that historically used Horse Archers can build them, basically all Turkic peoples + Armenians and Rajputs. Other civs use Horsemen instead.

Have all civs UHV been proven to work and be balanced? If not which civs need more work? I would like to contribute what i can which is just playtesting etc, but as well, if I want to just play a game I don't want to be trying to get a UHV that is impossible.

Probably about 95% of UHVs work. In the current version, Omani UHV can be undoable because of a gold bug, and Timurid UHV is checked on a wrong date. It's hard for me to say what UHVs are unbalanced atm... Most, if not all, have been completed. Some may be just more difficult (Samanids? not sure if anyone finished the third UHV) or quirky (Safavids, due to random Wonder situation) or possibly boring (Makuria, Yemen, Chauhan?).

With that in mind, is there anything I can do to help you out? Any changes you would like to see tested more extensively? I don't have any modding knowledge or experience but would be more then willing to learn how to do easy things like change civolopedia entries or type up civic guides/strategy guides.

Any feedback is welcome. Civilopedia entries are about either writing or editing something from wikipedia etc. - those can be added in a Notepad or similar editor to Text files in Assets/XML/Text, but since I'm frequently changing these files, if you'd like to contribute some pedia entries it's best to just post them here.

For that matter I'm searching for a flag or symbol for Buyids(Buwayhids), so far no success, except this (http://www.peymanmeli.org/Images/Flag-Buyid-Kotali.jpg), which isn't of much use.

Yep, already added! It reduces Anarchy time to 0 if your state religion is Sunni.

Thanks. I'm not sure if the effect is a bit overpowered however.

Also adding Imam Reza Shrine, since the graphics are freed.


What does this do?

Well, ask Firaxis... I can change it of course, but why?

IIRC RFC did not limit the number of spies you could build. In SoI you can only build 1. Leaders used multiple spies to do various missions, so an artificial limit wouldn't be realistic.

I'd rather not - realistic or not, it's a good mechanic IMO.

Why do you think it's a good mechanic?


I agree in general. Invisibility would be too powerful IMO. Attacking the weakest unit is a possibility, I'll have to steal the code from somewhere... at least I know I've seen it somewhere.

As for the last sentence, the article on wikipedia mentions that on several occassions Hashshashins fought as a unit in open field.

I was thinking that they should be made more like a Spy (Invisible with 1 strength, can't be attacked) but can kill off units by spending espionage points instead of battling them.

I think they should be mercenaries instead of units you can build. Weren't they hired by various factions?

I don't know if all this is possible though.

I added "Protector of the Holy Sepulchre" for Christians. As for India, I can't think of any - the one proposed earlier wasn't used by any civ in game. Sultan of Delhi, Mughal Emperor, Kings/Rajas - all are local titles.

What is the effect for the Protector title?

Depends... Timur massacred Sunnis when he saw fit. It's a good penalty for human players going ballistic on cities... Migrations aren't a bad idea however, and shouldn't be too complicated. Something along the lines of "Migrants from the destroyed city of ... arrived at ... Shall they be allowed to settle down here?" etc.

Perhaps if you allow migrants of a religion to settle in your city then you don't get the diplo penalty?

Raja Bikramanditya may be a good title if you're a Hindu ruler. Here's a good book with details about Hemu. I linked to the crowning page, but there's a bunch of detail both before and after it.

http://books.google.com/books?id=jpXijlqeRpIC&lpg=PA69&dq=hemu&pg=PA73#v=onepage&q=hemu&f=false

This guy seems like a brilliant general. 22 straight victories. Too bad he had only established his empire for a month before he was defeated. He could've changed history if he hadn't taken an arrow to his eye.

http://books.google.com/books?id=LRg5NSW1BisC&lpg=PA211&dq=hemu&pg=PA210#v=onepage&q=hemu&f=false

Why not "Raj of the Hindustan" or "Ruler of Hindustan", or something like that. And it would give you less instability for having Hindu's (or also Muslims) in your cities, plus something else perhaps. I think that would be very useful to any Indian civ in the game.

Oh and same questions as my last post below. :)

Also I would recommend adding more Sunni Missionaries to the Timurd spawn, currently, most of the cities I had (actually none of them) had Sunni Islam, but yet I only started off with 2 missionaries; so more would be very helpful.

It's hard for me to say what UHVs are unbalanced atm... Most, if not all, have been completed. Some may be just more difficult (Samanids? not sure if anyone finished the third UHV) or quirky (Safavids, due to random Wonder situation) or possibly boring (Makuria, Yemen, Chauhan?).


Samanids are ok - the 3rd UHV is easily accomplished with a good game plan.
Found your 2nd and 3rd city in Ferghana. Although it's a distance from your starting location, it's a core provice and your cities won't flip away. You should be fine from there onwards. You only need a bit of combat and stability luck.

My personal opinion on the different factions' UHVs:

Abbasids: great, balancing the 1st and 2nd is a medium challenge. But I tend to agree they lack real adversaries. Byzantines and crusaders are too far away to matter, and Seljuks and Zengids are best friends of the Caliphate.
Makurians: a bit one-dimensional, maybe, the fun part comes just at 5 to 12
Maybe it's just me - I can't trade for luxury resources so I found cities in Nubia and then with a crappy economy I turtle up until 1250 and try to fight through the Mamluks to the Mediterreanean with a bunch of hyper-promoted longbowmen. Anybody seeing alternative ways?
Byzantines: great for beginners, even challenging if you don't know what's coming at you
Ajmer: not boring at all, I think. You're constantly on the move. Lots of warring, razing and purging (good thing the persecution civic is going to be fixed), just like the old times...
Just keep the Ghorids alive until the last moment or you'll regret it!:D
Samanids: one of the easier ones, in my opinion, but still very fun to play
Armenia: ok
Yemen: maybe the best one for beginners, also the most ahistorical (it's been discussed before)
Gujarat: potentially frustrating because you need things going your way perfectly to accomplish the 1st UHV, but the reward is immense. I still advocate a great imam function for GPs.
I did the following: founded 4 (productive!) cities, spread Hinduism there, conquered Chittor and two cities from Sindh, built Hindu temples and monasteries everywhere + the Hindu shrine + Ran Ki Vav (gives massive piety!) + 2 Bannabs (you also conquer Sindh early for the marble!) = 92 piety right on time. You're screwed if the other Hindus or Ghaznavids come after you. Additionally, if you're lucky you might get the dynasty event and support the clergy.
Ghaznavids: one of my favourites. Lots of things to look out for and different ways to accomplish the UHVs. They are terrific once they get rolling.
Fatimids: pretty good
Georgia: pretty good FEAR THE JIHAD!!!:D
Seljuks: the first part is exciting and then it becomes too drawn-out. Once you survive the Mongols you're just sittin' pretty without any real competition.
Sindh: another good one for beginners if you know the trick.
Rûm: pretty good
Khwarezm: my other favorite. The synergies between the goals are just beautiful and you also have different paths to go.
PoA: lots of action in the beginning, then it flattens out - they're shortlived and ok
EDIT: funny thing happened in my last game - all the other Christian civs went down early and the Ayyubids (you either get to open borders with them or with abbasids/Zengids) did not appear (Fatimids were stable), so I got the open borders UHV by converting to Sunni Islam. It's an ahistorical possibility I haven't thought of before and I think it makes PoA overall easy.
KoJ: very, very challenging
Ghorids: the apotheosis of jihad -easy, yet very fun, too
Oman: will be good with the fix. They are very climactic, but the first 200 years you're just building and teching and nothing else. But that's ok for the long-term goals.
Ayyubids: very, very challenging up to the point that I'd say it's not completely in your hands. I still advocate that the flip stack for the Ayyubids should spawn in Dimashq and not in Al-Qahira.
I think the greatest challenge is building a road through Hejaz to reach Yemen in time while your workers are under constant barb harassment.
Mamluks: Too easy even for beginners. The only problem might be that the Portugese might be gone again before you get out a decent navy. Never happened to me, though.
Ottomans: They're perfecly doable and are quite fun if you bring along some endurance.:)
Timurids: the 12% goal is challenging depending on your starting situation
AkK: Feasible with favourable starting conditions, otherwise the long wait is annoying. They're ok overall.
Safavids: From my historical interest and also aesthetically they are my favourite. But the wonders UHV, as we know, is a bit out of your hands, which can also frustrate after the long loading time.
Mughals: Sometimes you're also unlucky with the wonder building, but apart from that, they're pretty good.
(EDIT: seems like in my games I've always been lucky so far and my competitors went for the advanced military techs instead of the wonders...)


Some UHVs of the competitive kind (e.g. be the first in score for Ayyubids, first in culture for Seljuks, first in wealth for Byzantines) seem too easy atm because there's no competition for them. As Ayyubids, Rûm was before me in score, but they collapsed before the Ottoman spawn and I remained unchallenged for the rest of the game (I did beat back the Mamluks). As Seljuks, your main competition goes down to Mongols. Is Delhi supposed to be a competitor in culture? As Byzantines, Oman might be a competitor but I don't remember my last game. So I say atm I'm not sure whether all "be first in" UHVs are actual races.

All in all, the mod is just brilliant! I love it! Hail the maker!

You can find the "attack weakest unit" code in the khmer UU from normal RFC.

Apotheosis of jihad? :confused:

With all the reports of Mamluks having to rush to build a fleet before the Portuguese fleet dies off, perhaps Joao should be strengthened? He should win some of the time.

For the 3rd UHV, couldn't you give the Portuguese 5 weak ships, then declare war and kill them?

The Mamluk UP isn't that useful.

I haven't been in the Levant with the last patch. Do the Mongols attack Syria around the late 1200's or do they just stay in Iraq?

SHH don't tell EDead that we think this mod is good enough that we'd buy it for $20

SHH don't tell EDead that we think this mod is good enough that we'd buy it for $20

Next thing we know:


New patch released! Exclusive Steam DLC for only $5! :goodjob:

:hide:

Apotheosis of jihad? :confused:

A crapton of Mujahids spreading Islam in Hindustan through conquest? That's it: the exaltation of a subject to divine level (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apotheosis)

With all the reports of Mamluks having to rush to build a fleet before the Portuguese fleet dies off, perhaps Joao should be strengthened? He should win some of the time.
For the 3rd UHV, couldn't you give the Portuguese 5 weak ships, then declare war and kill them?


Nah, the fleet does not die off. Joao still has lots of powerful carracks in the mid-1500s, but they don't patrol the ocean and just sit in Goa instead. It's just a rare worst case scenario: The active Mamluk player is late with the fleet and Joao loses Goa to the Bahmani and Oman respawns - bye bye colonialism.
I completed the 3rd UHV around the 1560s/70s. I could have sent large squads of war galleys way earlier, but like I said, I decided to tech to Lanternas first, which takes time. With war galleys, you might even have enough as soon as Portugal appears on the scene. Anyway, I see no need for Portugal to be tweaked...and your proposal of gifting weak ships may work, but I'd consider it an exploit.

The Mamluk UP isn't that useful.

I haven't been in the Levant with the last patch. Do the Mongols attack Syria around the late 1200's or do they just stay in Iraq?

Yeh, the UP is rather historical than significant for gameplay. But a different one would make the Mamluks even more overpowered, wouldn't it?
A small wave of Mongols does attack Syria and Northern Syria during the mid-to-late 13th century. Maybe just late enough to send the starting heavy lancers up there, try the UP and gain XP. And the Zengids would be very grateful.:cool:

2phunkey4u posted an excellent list that I would like to comment. I agree with pretty much everything except:

-Safavids are easier than Mughals (though still luck based), usually there is no chance to get the Shalimar Gardens before Mamluks/Ayyubids. These two civs need help. I'll post more on them later.
-Mamluks, I don't know how it is possible not to get a navy going by 1500, I just use War Galleys (yeah lots) built in the Sinai city and Aqaba. During GAs they produce one each per turn.
-The conquest of the Ayyubids aren't luck based, but the spreading of the companies is. Although, I believe Embryodead is going fix the bug related to this.

As Mughals, you beeline Imperialism and usually do not research Metallurgy (Bombophant) and Admin Reforms (Mausoleum) in between, do you?

Yeah, the wonders are the priority.

With war galleys, you might even have enough as soon as Portugal appears on the scene.

I had around 20.

For the 3rd UHV, couldn't you give the Portuguese 5 weak ships, then declare war and kill them?

Another reason to disable unit gifting.

All in all, the mod is just brilliant! I love it! Hail the maker!

Agreed!:D

In the current version, Omani UHV can be undoable because of a gold bug.

Yes, I encountered that. But, if you know which civ has the gold bug, you can win the UHV by conquering them ;)

Okey, time for some feedback:

The rest of the Ottoman game
-Vassalage worked for the UHV
-I got Flintlock in 1586
-Finished conquering around 1590
-Stability only dropped to -29
-I really enjoyed palying as them and it didn't feel to be too long.:D After I had gotten the UHVs I just teched though and managed to finish the tech tree on the same turn that the UHV triggered.

Some screenshots:
[SPOILER]http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0002-7.jpghttp://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0007-8.jpghttp://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0006-9.jpghttp://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0005-9.jpghttp://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0004-10.jpg

Ak Kouynly
-Diayrbakir was fine, it can grow to 10, which is enough. However, Ak Kouynly's don't have access to horses, unless they want to conquer Cilicia. Maybe some could be added next to Diayrbakir.
-You can't really use their UU, since it is so far in the tech tree.
-Their stability is really bad, mainly because the cities that flip are really crappy and undeveloped, perhaps the Divan could be slightly cheaper or give more stability..?

http://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0011-5.jpghttp://i826.photobucket.com/albums/zz188/Jusos2108/Civ4ScreenShot0012-7.jpg


Thanks! :goodjob:

I'll see about moving Turkoman Raider, it's a good point. Horses as well. Stability is low because they're kind of meant to collapse soon.


General stuff

-Timurids are doing better in this patch:goodjob:
-Respawning civs should get a stability boost
-When a civ respawns, the relationships with other civs should be reset.
-I believe that one of my ships died due to the plague..?
-You don't get piety bonus from declaring war on the infidels
-Gifting units should be disabled. The reason: when I play as Mamluks, for example, I build catholic missionaries and give them to Karamans/Ak Kouynly, so that I maximise my Shrine income. Also they get the piety penalty from spreading non-state religion, I just get more gold per turn.
-War weariness is too strong for these times and circumstances
-The AI never builds the Spiral Minaret
-Do some naval vessels count the ocean tiles wrong, when using the Go-To option??
-AI Ottomans suck and the reason is usually Karamans. I know that you have reduced their respawn size, but the problem is that they flip old Rum cities around Anatolia


- Respawning civs do get a boost, they start at +10.
- Should the relationship be reset really? It's not reset in RFC IIRC. Currently only persecution penalty is zeroed.
- Plague & ships - yes, fixed now.
- The bonus for war against infidels is applied only when you answer the call; if you were already at war, or declared on your own, you don't get it. Or did you not get bonus for answering the call?
- Right about gifting. So far I completely disabled gifting of Missionaries. For the Portugal cheat, I guess allowing gifting only between masters and vassals might do the trick (IIRC the AI uses gifting mechanic to help vassals, so I'd rather not get rid of it completely).
- I don't know why the AI hates Spiral Minaret, as it has BTS stats. I've added some more AI weight to it, so far it seems to work.
- There are further tweaks to Karamans, notably much less culture to avoid flips, and no AIWars vs. rebels.

Could you change iBaseAttackOddsChange for all civs to zero? IMHO it's unfair that the AI sees incorrect battle odds. Mamluks end up building a lot of Marksmen that they try to attack with, but Marksmen suck at offense.

Those are percents. If I change it from 2 to 0, the difference will be 2%, nothing that would really affect sucide Marksmen. For that matter, every turn, the AI gets a random attack odds bonus from 0 to 16%, as per normal CIV4 rules (0-32% for Barbarians). Mamluks just get 2 to 18%, nothing that would break them.

The Mamluk UU is also very far in the tech tree and by the time they get to it they've already conquered Levant and Hejaz. Perhaps you could have their UU replace Heavy Lancer instead of Heavy Cavalry?

I think that the reason Mamluks are so powerful is that they have no opposition for the Levant. If you eliminate Karaman, then the Ottomans will probably be able to fight them for it, instead of being boxed in Western Anatolia. But I have no problem having them control the Levant right off the bat. After all, IRL they controlled it by 1289 and had forced Cilicia into submission. They had to fight off Mongol attacks though. Do the Mongols try to take Syria?

I'm all for making Toassin Mamluk come earlier, it's not realistic for their UU to be a 16th century one, the only problem is that they will become even more powerful. I did some more tweaks to make Karamanids weaker and more passive (they won't declare war on Minors, and spread less culture), I also made some resources disappear from Egypt in 13-14th c. but that's all nothing to stop Mamluks so far. The only game recent game they weren't on top is when Seljuks survived the Mongols and were the size of Sassanid Empire in 1400s.

Yeah, it's been mentioned before that the Mamluks become too dominant. Maybe, if getting the Ottoman AI into the Levant is too difficult, how about respawning the Nubians with their UU Longbowmen tech and better stability? And maybe also make the Ayyubids last a little longer against the Mamluks?
It's true that you don't get to the Mamluk UU naturally, but the same applies for the Mughals. As Mamluks, I beeline for Lanternas. Usually I reach it before the Portugese get driven back by the Bahmani and the Omani - and then I just research techs that unlock wonders while I get the navy rolling. As Mughals, you beeline Imperialism and usually do not research Metallurgy (Bombophant) and Admin Reforms (Mausoleum) in between, do you?

Well, Mamluks killed the Nubians early on, so force-respawning them wouldn't be good. I was thinking of respawning Nubians as Kingdom of Sennar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Sennar), but they'd be late (1500), far South (Alodia+Makuria basically), Sunni Muslim, and not much of a threat for Mamluks.

Can't say much about Mughals, frankly I've never reached that far myself :blush: Late era techs seem to be a bit too expensive, in general.

@Edead
Do you know when the next patch will be released?

This one is huge, and there's a lot of issues, and I temporarily have a job so another 2-3 weeks ;)

Also I was wondering if you could make Tsar Simeon's invasion of Byzantium, a bit more organized :p
In the sense that currently its just him leading a unit, and a bunch of random units; if you could put them into one strong stack, I think that would be a lot better. Plus having them aimed at first Adrainople, and then Constantinople would be better, I think that would be much better, and a lot more organized :)

I don't want to precisely so that it's not organized and doesn't accidentally capture Constantinople... Bulgarians already capture and/or raze Adrianople way too often. I've added the separate Bulgarian Raider unit, though.

Thanks. I'm not sure if the effect is a bit overpowered however.

Well, it's just Cristo Redentor. If it's bad, it can reduced to 50%, So that you can change more civics at once in just 1 turn.

What does this do?

Nothing yet :cool: [Imam Reza Shrine]

IIRC RFC did not limit the number of spies you could build. In SoI you can only build 1. Leaders used multiple spies to do various missions, so an artificial limit wouldn't be realistic.

I said ask Firaxis because I never changed it and thought there was some limit of 3 or 5... certainly not 1... Now I looked at it and there's no limit. Myself I've built 2-3 spies at once many times i.e. as Byzantium. Were did you get that 1 Spy limit?

Why do you think it's a good mechanic?

It stops espionage from being too powerful - you continuously have to built and send your spies in the field to maintain good intelligence.

I was thinking that they should be made more like a Spy (Invisible with 1 strength, can't be attacked) but can kill off units by spending espionage points instead of battling them.

Ideally they could have special espionage missions, like:
- assassinate the governor (in city, to produce unhappiness etc.)
- assassinate the general (GG)
- assassinate a Great Person, Spy, Missionary or Persecutor
All that is possible, just a lot of work...

I think they should be mercenaries instead of units you can build. Weren't they hired by various factions?

Yes and currently they're both hireable in mercenary screen, and buildable if you have the Hashishiyya in your city.

What is the effect for the Protector title?

Compared to previous patches, none ;) (it provides Piety bonus, but Dome of the Rock no longer does, for Christians only)

Perhaps if you allow migrants of a religion to settle in your city then you don't get the diplo penalty?

No, I was rather thinking of migrants running away to random cities, more likely to neighboring kingdoms.