I did a quick search, but couldn't find any really good thoughts on what sort of city should get Moai, and I was wondering what you guys thought.

Obviously, the biggest impact is on a 1 tile city, because then it can get a lot of production. On the other hand, it takes forever to build there.

So... I'm wondering - when and what type of city do you guys use Moai for? A lot (15+) water tiles? A small (3-5, because it's a major production center) of water tiles? something more midsize, like 7-9, to take a marginal production coastal city and make it better?

is it best for a production city or for a commerce city?

Moai helps make a reasonable production city. You want to build it early if possible, using stone. So a city with at least a food source and 2-3 hills + lots of coast would be ideal. You can build it well before 1000 AD then and have it contribute to midgame wars both on land and at sea.

I usually completely forget to build it... but in the rare ocassions I remember something around 6 tiles is fine. Production cities are usually small and you have bigger production on land, so planning for 20 size city where 13 tiles would be water is not wise by my record.

I tend to do it on locations with 10-15 water tiles. Preferably a location that can have fresh water (the ideal location is actually a large fresh water lake near the coast).

Obviously a seafood or two are important for easier growth and they can also support workshops should there be no hills. They make for excellent production/commerce hybrids as the commerce from those water tiles and the trade routes do add up all the while the city is bringing in enough hammers to call it a production city.

If you're on a continent with 2-3 civs with reasonable relations, you can probably trade for Stone and build it in the late 1st millennia AD. Try to build in a city which is probably weak by itself (1 good food resource, a few hills and lots of water, say) but would become a major production site with Moai.

I consider Moai if:
- it has enough water tiles (7 is minimum for me)
- i always prefer making Moai if there are fresh water lakes present (+1 food not bad).
- the coastal city doesn't have too much food, because in that case it'll be my GP farm
- if I don't have really good spots for it, I usually save it for some other civ's capital :D

I usually completely forget to build it...
What happens with most national wonders in my games.

I often don't build it - but I recently had a city on a one-square wide peninsula, all ice, with ice copper at the top and a fish in the second ring. Perfect Moai City! Don't forget to build it early, because Moai Cities thrive during golden ages.

Forests. It's 250 hammers; if you have stone, that's 4 chops. Anywhere with 4 forests is an excellent candidate.

I`ll happily add the HE to it sometimes , depending on the map type . Add a few GG`s and a drydocks and you are in business

- i always prefer making Moai if there are fresh water lakes present (+1 food not bad).
- the coastal city doesn't have too much food, because in that case it'll be my GP farm^ That ^ plus building it early. Usually makes a nice city for cheaper units like boats, missionaries, longbows etc, but can also build commerce cities in reasonable time, esp in Golden Ages. Later game it's fine for Airships and Subs.

It needs to be early, cos that's the time when the two commerce on water tiles can count for something. With a Forge and Library, it's a nice early city.

I`ll happily add the HE to it sometimes

I usually combine HE with West Point. Moai city might build Red Cross or Mt Rushmore.

Problem with HE getting west point is that it's a bunch of turns NOT making units. I've actually found that I rarely make anything in my HE city other than units.

Moai getting red cross is interesting, though, giving any ships built in it medic I would make naval warfare easier.

In one of my games I have a coastal production city. If it's a coastal production city or a capital site they work nice there. :goodjob:

My favorite is to whip the moai in a 1 tile island surrounded by seafood (by that I mean at least 2 food bonus, 3 being better, 4 being great and anything over that meaning the globe theatre addition to Moai will make it a production center)

http://www.whiterose.org/~danil/civ4/a41/santiago.endgame.jpg

Taken from RB Adventure 41.

If I have a 1-T island I'd happily use a lucky GE to rush it. Maybe even add Globe Theater if there is lots of seafood.

Taken from RB Adventure 41.

That's one pro Moai. :)

http://www.whiterose.org/%7Edanil/civ4/a41/santiago.endgame.jpg

Taken from RB Adventure 41.

And it can work more tiles, too! damn thing is unhealtthy AND unhappy...

I usually put it where land tiles are subpar. Typically this will be a city founded to get a tundra or seafood resource that's out of the way.

That thing about forests is an excellent point. Also with a food resource you can abuse whip overflow to get it built quickly. I won't build it at all without stone and/or Industrious - just too expensive. Coastal capital with Bureau may be an exception, if I don't move the palace. Maybe lategame with factories and power... not much use left in it by that stage though. But I certainly wouldn't use a GE on it - it's not costly enough to warrant one, and there's no competition from AIs since it's a National wonder.

Usually I combine it with HE if I need a navy at all, otherwise I leave it unpaired most times. Moai + Globe is an interesting thought, but if you're whipping or drafting a lot (which is where Globe shines) then you're probably working at low pop and thus wasting most of the bonus hammers.

That thing about forests is an excellent point. Also with a food resource you can abuse whip overflow to get it built quickly.
This, even without stone, with a little micromanagement you can build it pretty fast.

You can only overflow 30 :hammers: at a time. Too slow for my liking. Also, waiting for max overflow means delaying completion of the unit/building you're using for that. Organised Religion helps, but not a whole lot.

You want to have it before you hit your GAs. Moai shines in GA. I sometimes build it in the watery capital to boost its production for Oxford.

How about combiing Moai with Ironworks in a watery and bureaucratic Amsterdam? I've always moved the capital in such a situation, but I wonder... Ironworks is the only other nat. wonder which syncs with Moai, and if you have Maus of Mous and pursue a Golden Age strat, that's some decent production runs. Hmm, I feel an experiment coming on :)

How about combiing Moai with Ironworks in a watery and bureaucratic Amsterdam? I've always moved the capital in such a situation, but I wonder... Ironworks is the only other nat. wonder which syncs with Moai, and if you have Maus of Mous and pursue a Golden Age strat, that's some decent production runs. Hmm, I feel an experiment coming on :)

Moai city is a poor choice for Ironworks compared to a riverside city with, say, 15 worked river tiles. Because the Levee alone beats moai. As Dutch, what you'd basically get is a seaside "plains hills windmill" city.

At the industrial era, Moai is just an average production city, and prior to that it's so-so, because, unlike in standard production cities, you need 4 worked tiles to get 4:hammers:, while in a typical continental production city with a food resource you need to work just 2-3 tiles to get 4 hammers (say a food resource and 2 grassland hills).

I just had a game where my moai city was combined with ironworks - 44 base hammers, which isn't any sort of record, of course, but isn't bad at all. a few hills, a couple of ivory, a cow, a fish, a few river squares for a levee. And the extra health from the harbor helps out a lot.

Moai city minumium ingredients:

-A few hills
-A food resource to be able to work the hills
-A hellofalotta coast tiles

OR

-at least 2 food resources
-slavery (and abuse whip overflow)
-A hellofalotta coast tiles

Moai city is a poor choice for Ironworks compared to a riverside city

Yes indeed, a river kicks a land city too far ahead of Moai as an Ironworks candidate, even for the Dutch.

Forests. It's 250 hammers; if you have stone, that's 4 chops. Anywhere with 4 forests is an excellent candidate.

And if you do this on a small-island city, then it's historically accurate too!

If I build the Moai,I try to complete before I get any Golden Ages. Since Moai water tiles really benefit with an extra +1:hammers: and +1:commerce:.

Best spots are a peninsular city with like 2-3 hills, a land food resource, a seafood, and like 12-15 water tiles. Doesn't make for your best city usually, but it'll give you pretty decent production and good science.

...... Ironworks is the only other nat. wonder which syncs with Moai... :)

what is the other nat'l wonder, or am i misreading you?

i think moäi works with heroic epic as a unit pump. add a dry dock, and you have a good production site to field a dominating navy.

I find that i build it earlier when coast tiles are workable because i am financial or built the colossus. Otherwise i built it rather late, usually to make a marginal city with some seafood less marginal.
The kind of city i build it in is as decribed above, a fish, 2 hammer tiles, crappy land otherwise and a lot of coast.

Don't forget that if you have stone or IND (or both), the Maoi statues can be a great source of failure gold. Build it in one city, close it down just before finishing, then another, etc. Then, once the one that you want is ready to build it, get it done and enjoy the Maoi failure gold. It is an excellent subsidiary economy; the "failure" economy.

It's a game design flaw, but exploitable at higher levels.

Don't forget that if you have stone or IND (or both), the Maoi statues can be a great source of failure gold. Build it in one city, close it down just before finishing, then another, etc. Then, once the one that you want is ready to build it, get it done and enjoy the Maoi failure gold. It is an excellent subsidiary economy; the "failure" economy.

It's a game design flaw, but exploitable at higher levels.

LOL I think that's brilliant!!!

Don't forget that if you have stone or IND (or both), the Maoi statues can be a great source of failure gold. Build it in one city, close it down just before finishing, then another, etc. Then, once the one that you want is ready to build it, get it done and enjoy the Maoi failure gold. It is an excellent subsidiary economy; the "failure" economy.

It's a game design flaw, but exploitable at higher levels.

Since you want the thing as early as possible, you can do it while building the lighthouse in the "right" city, but you want the gold and the wonder soon, so you can't really make too many of failed moais.
1 or 2 if you are lucky

http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/1559/athensmoai.jpg

From an old game of mine. Probably the most perfect Moai city I've seen.

Wow! That is an awesome city!

Since you want the thing as early as possible, you can do it while building the lighthouse in the "right" city, but you want the gold and the wonder soon, so you can't really make too many of failed moais.
1 or 2 if you are lucky

Well it depends upon your position. If you are isolated, then waiting for a the big cash in on a Maoi failure gold can be worth it. I have seen a couple of games posted on this site where player had 5 or 6 Maoi's waiting for failure gold. This is more productive than building wealth (which you have to wait for currency to do).

You have to be careful about hammer decay. If you wait too long, then you can be in trouble.


Also, this doesn't have to be done strictly with Maoi's. Any wonder will do, but national wonders allows you to have multiple failure gold sites.

That is a nice Moai. Too bad it's Athens and not Amsterdam.

Changing the topic a little here, but I was wondering...

Under what circumstances is Moai better than Ironworks for OCC? Given that:

- your other 4 National Wonder slots are taken by NE, Oxford, Globe, NP (this one is debatable in some cases)
- you have Iron, or at the very least can trade for it (otherwise IW is worthless, obviously)

I'm guessing that with a start like the one pictured, Moai looks pretty tempting, especially with an Industrious leader and/or stone. Potentially you can get even more crazy starts - up to 6 seafoods and about half a dozen 3:food: lake tiles. Surely at some point, Moai wins out?

That is a nice Moai. Too bad it's Athens and not Amsterdam.

:agree: My thoughts exactly. :)

Changing the topic a little here, but I was wondering...

Under what circumstances is Moai better than Ironworks for OCC? Given that:

- your other 4 National Wonder slots are taken by NE, Oxford, Globe, NP (this one is debatable in some cases)
- you have Iron, or at the very least can trade for it (otherwise IW is worthless, obviously)

I'm guessing that with a start like the one pictured, Moai looks pretty tempting, especially with an Industrious leader and/or stone. Potentially you can get even more crazy starts - up to 6 seafoods and about half a dozen 3:food: lake tiles. Surely at some point, Moai wins out?

I never play OCC, so I may be missing something here, but ...

With iron and coal, Ironworks will give you an additional 100% of your raw hammers. Moai will give you 1 hammer for every water tile you're working. So to favour Moai you need to be working more water tiles than your existing raw hammer total - fairly unlikely. With iron and no coal, IW gives 1 for 2. That may be a closer call, but I'm guessing that an OCC without coal would be difficult.

IW adds 2 unhealthy icons; probably not an issue though, if you've gone for the National Park. IW gives a GE point and allows 2 specialist engineers; M gives a GP point and no specialist.

Seems like IW is a no brainer except under very special circumstances.

@RJM If you have the NP, you lose your coal, so it's only 50%

Also, the 1 hammer is a base hammer, which gets multiplied by buro, factories etc, while the extra IW hammers are post-bonus hammers

Finally, in a golden age it is worth 2 base hammers, which get multiplied

Even finallier [sic]: the maoi is a lot earlier than IW

Earlyish game:Say that your city will be working 3 water tiles in general, and has a forge and OR for +50%. Maoi will be worth 5 hammers per turn, double in GA. IW can't be built yet

Mid game: Say that your city will be working 5 water tiles in general, and has a forge, buro, and OR for +150%. Maoi will be worth 12.5 hammers per turn, double in GA. IW can't be built yet

Late game: Say the same city is now working 10 water tiles, has buro, forge, factory, power for +175%. Maoi will be worth 10 * 2.75 = 27.5 hammers, double in GA.Suppose that the city has 50 base hammers otherwise (mines, specialists, ap buildings), IW is worth 25 hammers (no coal). If the city has 100 base hammers (not an easy feat), it is worth 50. If you have other multipliers (eg drydock, police state), maoi is worth more.

Conclusion: unless my numbers are off, maoi is underrated (since base hammers >> prod bonus) while IW is overrated for the same reason.

Edit: Just tried an OCC/ maoi game with Lizzy on med/small. I rerolled until I got stone+seafood+lakes. I built maoi asap, plus lighthous and colossus. Lake tiles are now 3f1h4c, not bad at all!

I actually decided to get maoi and IW and drop NP. Health is problematic but environmentalism + hospital etc can do quite a bit. Just founded sid's and mining and traded for resources. I find that in OCC corps are a great way to convert gold into food+hammers, and I am currently losing 30gpt even though I have 4 or 5 settled prophets and a 12-gold shrine. But I do get around 8 (base) hammers and 10 food per turn...

For me, Maori is best built either via whip overflow with an offshore island and two seafood in HR or with just a few hills for production.

Another issue with IW and NP is that to get a good effect from NP, you need to use forest preserves on trees, which means not using lumbermills, so you lose the hammers from that.

Obviously, you can convert from preserves to lumbermills at a later date, to go from specialist heavy to hammer heavy, if you need...

NP can be used to either boost preserves or to deal with unhealthiness from massive pop. If you get to biology and have no city with a good bit of forest left, you can often do pretty well just by using it in a high food, floodplains city. For OCC Forest preserves are a no-brainer. With Rep/Enviro/NP you can eliminate all your caps, and each tile is worth is worth around 2 :food:, 3 :hammers: (spec + forest hammer), 3 :science:, and 2 :commerce: and 3 GPP (this can be boosted higher AW priests, the only limitation is the spec slots but you can get a good amount with forge, factory, and IP). Nothing else comes close to that. Even losing coal from IW makes it still a strong OCC tactic to have IW/NP in your combo if you can keep the forests alive long enough.

Well, since we're showing off Moai. These two attached Moai cities helped me to sieze control of the map. Pics are on the turn of victory... sorry, no other archived saves from these games. Maybe their contexts can still interest you, though.

1. This was a made-to-order situation. I scouted Monty's city, and it dawned on me that if you give that psycho the Whip, the Aztec UB, and 5 Seafoods, there might be, um... problems. Turned all espionage onto Monty (to monitor his research) and had to rush down another civ just to connect it. Capped it in 2200 BC, 5 turns before he could finish BW, and had the Moai up by 1080 BC. Chronically unhealthy and addicted to HR (look at the garrison!), but it did exactly what it needed to do. All thanks goes to the map scripts for giving AIs unbelievable capitals!

2. This was a sleeper situation (a sleeper is something of surprising power). It totally blindsided me. I settled here in 730BC and it was supposed to be a filler city to bring in the iron 2N. Moai was recommended by Sid, I had some stone, and thought, "Oh, alright." Finished in 380 AD. Between seafood, iron, and SP workshops, though, I finally figured out this thing was destined for the heroic epic, and greatness. It spat out enough samurai, cannons, and warships to obliterate all resistance. Enough privateers to choke two small continents and set them way back.


I understand praise for Ironworks; it is excellent. But Moai is much earlier. I learned my lesson up there in case #2: It doesn't need a perfect, divine city site. If you have a little food and a lot of coast, don't delay it!

I understand praise for Ironworks; it is excellent. But Moai is much earlier. I learned my lesson up there in case #2: It doesn't need a perfect, divine city site. If you have a little food and a lot of coast, don't delay it!
exactly my point (see above). This is why you won't make 5 failed moai.

I'm not totally sure what's the best way to use Moai. I'm always so tempted to whip away Moai coastal tiles, as they're only 2F1P, and food:hammer efficiency is highest as smaller sizes.

Moai gives +1 hammer to resources and lakes.

The coast and ocean tiles are junk in terms of production, and should be ignored.

Well, since we're showing off Moai. These two attached Moai cities helped me to sieze control of the map. Pics are on the turn of victory... sorry, no other archived saves from these games. Maybe their contexts can still interest you, though.
1. This was a made-to-order situation. I scouted Monty's city, and it dawned on me that if you give that psycho the Whip, the Aztec UB, and 5 Seafoods, there might be, um... problems. Turned all espionage onto Monty (to monitor his research) and had to rush down another civ just to connect it. Capped it in 2200 BC, 5 turns before he could finish BW, and had the Moai up by 1080 BC. Chronically unhealthy and addicted to HR (look at the garrison!), but it did exactly what it needed to do. All thanks goes to the map scripts for giving AIs unbelievable capitals!

2. This was a sleeper situation (a sleeper is something of surprising power). It totally blindsided me. I settled here in 730BC and it was supposed to be a filler city to bring in the iron 2N. Moai was recommended by Sid, I had some stone, and thought, "Oh, alright." Finished in 380 AD. Between seafood, iron, and SP workshops, though, I finally figured out this thing was destined for the heroic epic, and greatness. It spat out enough samurai, cannons, and warships to obliterate all resistance. Enough privateers to choke two small continents and set them way back.
I understand praise for Ironworks; it is excellent. But Moai is much earlier. I learned my lesson up there in case #2: It doesn't need a perfect, divine city site. If you have a little food and a lot of coast, don't delay it!


To me, the first one seems a made-to-order GP farm.

The 2nd is more like what I'd use Moai for, though - build moai, lighthouse, granary, drydock and pump out the naval units...

To me, the first one seems a made-to-order GP farm. Too early and no point. Belching out :hammers::commerce: like this without even bureacracy, I could just mow everybody down for a BC domination victory.


Moai gives +1 hammer to resources and lakes.

The coast and ocean tiles are junk in terms of production, and should be ignored.
Usually.

(For everyone interested in maoi in OCC, check out the OCCCC thread...)

Moai gives +1 hammer to resources and lakes.

The coast and ocean tiles are junk in terms of production, and should be ignored.

I dunno, I've whip built Moai many times one tile islands with nothing (settled for boosting domestic TRs originally). This turns a crappy city whose only purpose is to lure unsuspecting traders over into marginal production city.


In any event, assuming you are running caste or eman for other reasons, how else do you intead to suck down surplus :food:? Once you work all the possible mines and WSs 2 :food: 1 :hammers: 2 :commerce: may be lousy, but growing those out seem to be better yield than running non-rep specs; particularly once the :commerce: gets a full set of multipliers. I don't see how the pop increase fails to increase your production and pay for the increased maintenance.

In any event, assuming you are running caste or eman for other reasons, how else do you intead to suck down surplus :food:? Once you work all the possible mines and WSs

Build my production cities farther inland for more mines and WSs.

Good thots all... except for the "I forget to build" = huh?
Also, who ever gets an AI (or real player) to trade stone?
U must be playing at easier levels to get away with these.

Altho, I'll admit I've delayed too long looking for the "perfect" pennisula or island. 11-14 sea &/or, as noted, fresh water (THE best) tiles. I'm starting to consider 7-8 (as the AI does) as OK if I can get it cranking out earlier... especially if lucky enuf to have stone.

The cutting forests (after getting Math) = a good possibility if there are some around.
Slaughtering the slaves = OK if there some good food supplies around (which there must at least 2). This a great NW if U R playing one of the Financial leaders = excellent commerce that works well with several other wonders.

IMS-HO.

Build my production cities farther inland for more mines and WSs.

??? What do you do then with those crappy offshore islands that are only worth settling because they are +1 :commerce: on all your domestic TR? Sure these cities won't be production powerhouses, but if you build an island city just for TR purposes, why wouldn't you dump in Maori and actually make it marginally useful? What else do you intend to do with places like that once you move from the whip to eman or caste?

Yes, if no city has enough fish/lakes to justify building Moai earlier, putting it in a junk city is often better than not building it.

Build my production cities farther inland for more mines and WSs.??? What do you do then with those crappy offshore islands that are only worth settling because they are +1 :commerce: on all your domestic TR? Sure these cities won't be production powerhouses, but if you build an island city just for TR purposes, why wouldn't you dump in Maori and actually make it marginally useful? What else do you intend to do with places like that once you move from the whip to eman or caste?

You guys can yammer all you want about what's better in principle, but the map will usually tell you what you need to do. This is just such a case.

Yes, if no city has enough fish/lakes to justify building Moai earlier, putting it in a junk city is often better than not building it.

How many is that (ballpark)? How is that number affected by modifiers (stone, OR, forge, etc.)?

You guys can yammer all you want about what's better in principle, but the map will usually tell you what you need to do. This is just such a case.
The map will often contain many marginal situations; a strong seafood location on an island might make for a very quick 2 pop whip build with MS; but such a location might be better served as a NE city. Likewise a cap with a few lakes and seafood might make for a strong MS location, but with enough :commerce: and a high enough slider it likely wants Oxford instead; if you are mass settling wonder GP you may even find that the map says go rep/B/OR and drop in Oxford/IW.

often, there are more than one "2+ seafood mostly coastal", so one can become MS, and the other NE and/or globe theater

These days I usually build Moai when I've got a city sandwiched between the coast and a lake. I love the 3f1h2c tiles, and I also love golden ages and colossus. 3f2h4c. That's a nice tile. If not, I personally am more inclined to pump out units in any city I am able to, instead of investing time and energy into making a pretty Moai city. More often than not for me, setting a city to build Moai means coming back to that city in 1000 years so that I can finally build something else. I agree that the map plays the biggest role in the decision, and sadly my pc's lacking performance determines my need to finish my games as early as possible. (its either that or make a concerted effort to NOT map the globe, and shoot for space or culture)

I have played a couple maps with a sweet capital that had a nice 5-6 tile lake beside it... early Moai with a harbour, leads to early Buro, leads to victory! Especially with financial.... anyways, just my playstyle. (emperor, small maps, old pc) Cheers

hoLLo, for maps with too many objects to display (like huge and seeing everyone) you get better results with very narrow zooming (meaning keeping on one object and having all others out of sight)

If I have a 1-T island I'd happily use a lucky GE to rush it. Maybe even add Globe Theater if there is lots of seafood.Don't waste the GE...use whip overflow.

[IMG]http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2701/regrowingmoaicity0000.jpg

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/2701/regrowingmoaicity0000.jpg


Gives new meaning to the phrase, "We cannot forget your cruel oppression!"

Gives new meaning to the phrase, "We cannot forget your cruel oppression!"

In 500 years it'll be awesome.

Gives new meaning to the phrase, "We cannot forget your cruel oppression!"If you're going to be evil, don't be half assed about it.

Probably as close as I will ever come to a personal motto. ;)

after the globe is whipped, you can have a whole new magnitude of those unhappies, only with no effect

after the globe is whipped, you can have a whole new magnitude of those unhappies, only with no effect

If it doesn't matter if there's no effect, why is it bad to cheat on your significant other if you won't (not probably, but a hypothetical won't) get caught?


Problem with Miao statues is what you could do instead, like run specialists instead of water tiles, and what you could do with the hammers.

At best a marginal National Wonder to build unless you are on a map with very little land. Proof of just how marginal an effect it has is that the dutch UB is a levi which does not only what the wonder does but also provides hammers to river tiles.

Seldom does it really impact a town worth caring about and if you care about the town, you might have plans to place a different pair of National Wonders there.

Cheers!
-Liq

At best a marginal National Wonder to build unless you are on a map with very little land. Proof of just how marginal an effect it has is that the dutch UB is a levi which does not only what the wonder does but also provides hammers to river tiles.

Seldom does it really impact a town worth caring about and if you care about the town, you might have plans to place a different pair of National Wonders there.

Cheers!
-Liq

Levees are the most overpowered UB.

Moai turns a mediocre city into a decent city. You should always build it somewhere.

I think my Moai strategy is going to be for my major naval base, and thus it will be a city where I get 4-6 water tiles, not one where you get mainly water. The idea, after all, isn't to get the biggest effect from the wonder - it;s to use the wonder to the best effect. a Moai city with a drydock, a mil academy and a settled GG can produce 6 xp naval units pretty quickly, I think.

I think my Moai strategy is going to be for my major naval base, and thus it will be a city where I get 4-6 water tiles, not one where you get mainly water. The idea, after all, isn't to get the biggest effect from the wonder - it;s to use the wonder to the best effect. a Moai city with a drydock, a mil academy and a settled GG can produce 6 xp naval units pretty quickly, I think.

A couple ways to improve naval production even more:
1. Move all citizens from water tiles to mines/workshops.
2. Spend hammers on navy instead of Moai.

Actually, I think that Ikhanda is the most overpowered UB. 1/2 a courthouse, available at start, at 1/2 price? it's a wonder shaka doesnt' always dominate...

Levees are the most overpowered UB.


I guess you mean dikes instead of levees, but I disagree here.

The Levee is a very powerful building by itself. In fact it is so powerful, that people consider it's future "buildability" while settling their capital and early cities. And they're right too, because it often adds 10+ base hammers to a city.

The Dike just makes that powerful building a bit more powerful, imo more because you can build it in those "15 rivertiles except for the city center, which is on a lousy lake"-cities, then because it adds a hammer to meh-coast tiles.

So while the dike might be "insanely powerful", it's not that much better then the ordianry levee. If you're not playing archipelago-like maps, that is :D

Yeah I meant dikes. Even on pangea maps, dikes are overpowered. On archipelago maps they are insanely overpowered. They are a lot more powerful than regular levees, which you can only build in cities lucky enough to be next to rivers, and whose value is limited only to river tiles. There are a lot more ocean tiles than river tiles. Dikes even work on lakes.

It's hard to lose the game as the Dutch if you can make it to Steam Power.

Terrace is the most OP UB with the most OP civ.

:agree: and doubly so if you play Monarch or higher.

I'm with the "dike is overrated" club. Then again, I play Small maps, so half my games end before Steam Power :lol:. Probably the same reason why (as I mentioned earlier) I almost never build Moai without Industrious or Stone.

Dike is a great UB. Only problem is that it's only available late, is all.

Dike is very good (not overpowered), but not as good as the terrace (overpowered).

Problem with HE getting west point is that it's a bunch of turns NOT making units. I've actually found that I rarely make anything in my HE city other than units.

Moai getting red cross is interesting, though, giving any ships built in it medic I would make naval warfare easier.

If you get red cross for a naval production city, and make medic carriers and transports, would that heal fighters/jets and on board troops normally?

Yes!!

Super medic carriers!!

As long as the peeps on board don't attack or do anything else they heal.

Super medic carriers!!Almost every huge/marathon game I play and go for conquest in features at least one of these. (and at least one ground based super medic) Makes those blitz battleships extra fun.

Silly question: it is enough for them to be on the same tile, right? suppose I have a super medic submarine, if it is on the same tile as the carrier/transport the loaded units will heal quicker? What if I have a super medic chariot on a transport? Heals all ships in the same tile plus all units boarded in all ships in that tile?

yes.

Well, a super medic (with medic I, II and III) could be in the same tile or an adjacent one. A super-duper medic(medic 1-III, woody 1-III) would have to be in the same tile to get the full 40% bonus.

But just a medic I ship would have to be in the same tile.