Ok, let's kick things off by making sure we understand the play format and the general rules.

This type of a succession game is open for people to shadow along at any point in time and basically everyone plays along sort of like an inch worm. We all play the game in 10 turn increments and then upload 3 of these ten turn blocks to compare where we are.

All the formal spaces in this game are already filled by preregistration.

(registration and players roster can be found in this previous thread.) (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37127)

For the next ten turns, then each player can keep playing from their own previous 10 turn save or you can pick the save of any other player and continue on. You are not locked in to continuing with your game the way you already played it unless you want to do that.

I would not recommend jumping ship every time you have a chance, because it may help for you to play 20 or 30 turns in your own style just using anything new that you may learn. Then you may be able to compare bigger differences between two different approaches.

Different objectives and strategies may force you to choose different approaches to the same game and that would make comparison tougher. The common game approach for this Quick Start Challenge Game will be to go for the quickest possible Space Ship victory. To do this we will need to maximize our longterm science research pace and expand the size and power of our civilization as quickly as possible.

This is a Monarch level game with a very high land mass and 11 AI civs

We will also expect to encounter contact with the other civilizations on our map and will probably need to engage in a war or two to make sure we have enough territory and resources to dominate the game and achieve our major objective of winning the Space Race.

A key factor in the game will be that our Chinese Civ has the double speed industrious workers so we can throw down improvements very quickly.

We can also look at the minimap position and make a very strong guess as to the direction we will find our first neighbors in if we begin exploring.

If you have not played a succession game or team game before, you may need to make sure you know how to access a text editor from within the Civ game when you play so you can take some notes to compare with others. To do this, you need to open your choice of a word processor or spreadsheet program before you start the civ3 game. Then you can use the alt-tab keys on your keyboard to just step down from the game and access your text file to make any special notes you might like to make as you play. To get back into the game you just select CivIII from the taskbar or use alt-tab again.

Good luck to all and the first turns should be played up until the end of all moves for 3550bc and then saved. Save the files using the naming format of q1_xxxxxx_yyyyyy.sav where xxxxx is you simplified CFC handle and yyyyyy is the year in a format of example "bc3550". For example, my game first game should be Q1_cracker_bc3550.sav and this way when we upload them or download them there should be no naming conflicts. (do not increment the 1 in the filename as Q1 is the number of this entire game)

Try not to use the direct file attachment feature because it slows down the forums database more than using the easy upload feature, but initially both methods will work.

When you have played your turns, upload a concise summary of your turns plous the save files for the next three savepoints on the timeline. Then you are free to download any other save files from other players and look at the games to compare postions and get ready for discussion. If we all follow the naming conventions we should be able to download files to a single folder and they will still sort by player and chronologically.

Good luck to all, and I will look to the next step.

Before you can download and begin to play the game you must carefully read this posting to better understand how the game is setup.

You must also download a minor zip file to set up some special unit conditions that use standard graphics files that already exist in you Civ3 units folder.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/crackers_QSC1_units.zip

download this zip file (only about 7kb) and extract its contents into your Civilization III/art/units/ folder to setup three special units subfolders and .ini files that should have no effect on any other gameplay. The zip file also includes a text copy of the following information.

------
Understanding the Map Configuration

The map for this game is randomly generated using the standard internal civ3 fractal algorithm but the program has been cracked to access the coefficients over a wider range of settings. In the default game, the program code allows you to select water coverage to land mass ratios of 60%, 70%, and 80%. The 80% setting would give you the maximum number of water tiles and the smallest possible landmasses. On a default standard map size of 100 x 100 tiles, the 60% water setting would generate approximately 2000 tiles of land for 8 civilizations. On a default large map the same 60% water setting would generate approximately 3920 tiles of land for 12 civilizations.

Understanding this landmass to map size ratio is important because our map for this QSC game is produced with a 40% water coverage ratio to produce approximately 1900 land tiles on what would normally just be a small sized map. Because the land area is increased by 50%, the number of civilizations in the game is increased from the six that we would normally see for 1280 land tiles up to 11 civilizations for the increased available land space.

The OCN or Optimal cities number is also increased proportionately from 14 up to 22. This increase allows the size of your empire to be somewhat larger with corruption effects being proportionately in between what you would see under default conditions of standard or large sizes. The increased OCN number also encourages the AI civilizations to continue expanding for a proportionately longer period of time. If the OCN were not increased, the AI players would just stop building cities and sit there even though vast tracts of land might be unclaimed.

The map size tech research rate is set to 120 to correspond to the tech research pace of a standard sized map even though this map is squeezed to fit inside a small outline.

The effects of these modifications should be that the first two ages of the game will play almost exactly like a Monarch level contest on a standard size Pangaea style map with ten potential contacts in the game instead of the usual seven. Every civ has plenty of land space but they should be whipped into a foaming frenzy by the map conditions and the tech pace.

-----------------------------

AI Unit Modifications:

There are no modifications to units in the game that will affect any play elements in the Ancient or Medieval ages.

To give the late game some punch and potential excitement, even for players who already have their sights locked in on the early Space Race victory, there are two units added to the game that are only available to the AI players.

The Hired Savage – is a 3/2/2 demon possessed Jag Warrior clone that the AI players can begin building after they discover Magnetism. This will correspond to the dawning of the industrial age and AI’s will be able to build these savages for 9 shields each. Technically I wanted this unit to provide simulation for an extra level of barbarian activity.

The Irritator – is a 4/4/1 samurai type unit that becomes available with the discovery of Medicine. The killer factor with this unit is that it only costs 18 shields for the AIs to produce and can be used offensively or defensively. There is no significance to the tech assignment with medicine except that the timing of the advent of the unit is designed to flow in the early industrial age. The Samurai unit graphics where chosen because they look cool in all the different colors and the Samurai will laugh at you when he wins a battle.

(The civilization of Japan and Aztecs are disabled and not in the game at all, so you can view these units as cheap mercenaries available to all the AI players from their respective countries who are far away and not participating directly in the game.)

Depending on the game conditions at the time these units become available, the AI civs may or may not build any of the units to harass you. Under some conditions, the AI will build hundreds of these units and fling them at you like the Zulus at Rourke’s drift.

-------------------

Human Player Units

The player gets two unit modifications to use to diversify the late game experience if you survive that far.

The Migrant – with the discovery of Medicine you will gain the ability to quickly transfer population around from town to town by using this “Migrant” unit. The unit only costs you 10 shields but will extract 2 pop points from the source town and add 2 pop points to the receiving town. This unit is technically available to the AI players but there are no strategy elements that will activate this unit in the AI build patterns so you should not see them at all from your enemies. The Migrant uses the Ancient Age Leader graphic but it comes two ages later in the game so hopefully this will not confuse anyone. In the build Queue, the CIV3 game is hard coded to display the leader graphic Industrial or Modern era even though the ancient bald Moses guy will be what emerges on your map for you to move around if you choose to use this unit.

The Helicopter – This unit is relatively worthless in the standard game but has been modified to allow the helicopter to hover over open terrain anywhere on the map. The helicopter has an open air operational range of 5 tiles plus a ground hover movement range of two moves with the “treat all terrain as roads” ability. The effect is to give the helicopter the ability to move 5 land tiles in any direction and then to airdrop its cargo of passengers forward up to 5 tiles even across water barriers all in the same move. The passenger capacity is increased to 3 units per helicopter unit and the helicopters have the ability to deliver combat foot units, artillery, workers, and settlers. Helicopters also have the Recon mission ability as a part of the helicopter’s standard feature set so you should not forget that this option is available if play progresses to that point in the game. Again these abilities are not recognizable to the AI players even though the units will be equally available to everyone. This is basically just something to play with to add spice in the late game or to give you a chance to disable their space or UN victory if they still happen to be ahead in techs at that point in time.

Remember that this game is being played in the Quick Start Challenge format and that the declared victory objective is earliest space race victory.

Game Configuration Details

We are: the Chinese
Map Size: (see discussion above) approximately 1900 land tiles 40% water
Barbarians: Restless
Opponents: 10 civs (does not include Japan or Aztecs)
Map Character: Huge continents normal climate 4 billion years old

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/start_position.jpg

You must be playing V1.29 Civ3 in order for the save files to be compatible. Here is the starting game file at 4000bc:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_as_Mao_BC4000.sav

The timeline schedule of every save point that you must hit is outlined in the original registration thread, but the first three save points you should target will be:

3550bc (turn 10)
3050bc (turn 20)
2590bc (turn 30)

If you are a registered alternate player, please try to hit the three save points and upload your files on the time schedule just in case any of the primary players miss the time deadline and a slot becomes available for you to jump right in.

hopefully all the registered players will be able to play and upload their save files on the outlined scheduled and we will clip rght along.

I hope everyone enjoys the game.

What level of reporting do you want for the turns.
Any level of reporting WILL result in cross-game contamination.

I have completed my first 3 rounds but will wait for an answer to Lee's question. IMO a this is a competition game but I think that it is also a place for discussion and theories to be played and compared not just a bottom line I am better than xxx or yyy. I am interested in really seeing where the lines are in terms of effective trading, city placement, tech choices etc.

All these thing discussion will still happen even when a player happens to see the location of the Babylonians and can get there faster. Lee is right there will be some "spoilers" in this format there has to be. It is those very spoilers that spur discussion and help the players that don't regularly kill emperor or monarch (ie me).

If a player uses foreknowledge soully(sp) to boost score then I think they miss the point of this particular game. Even if all the entries for a particular round aren't posted until the same deadline there will be spoilers that will clearly effect the next round, in this game in particular because of sooo many civs to find. That should'nt change to overall objective. Make us all better early round players at whatever level and make for some good discussion.

Lee's point is a good one but I think this game and this group of players is beyond using foreknowledge to "rank" ourselves. I think all of us can look at the baker's dozen of players and give a list of who will be leading throughout, who will be in the middle and who will come in at the tail end. Excellent players will all do well, that is why they are excellent. The Regent/Monarch crew (ie Me) will fill in the middle to tail end and hopefully if nothing else at least show improvement over the course of this game. All the while being able to compare themselves with the best, not in score but in theory and action.

Hotrod

I think the issue of how detailed of a set of reports to post should be balanced by timing.

It is tough to look at games in this format as a competition as much as they really are an opportunity to try and play a very distinct strategy and compare how it works to other options.

In a perfect world, the games would include 12 clones of players all that the same skill level and then we could break down the results as being the best possible play sequences to fit a strategy. Unfortunately we are all human and make mistakes of choices as well as just simple hand/eye/braincramp type booboos.

The save files will in some ways make all the reports more of a moot point, but I think we can look to the handyandy game as a good example. You should probably take good notes to support discussion as these things start to heat up in the later rounds. But do not necessarily post excrutiatingly detailed turns reports in the early going. Jaxom's early turns reports on page 2 of the handyandy thread provide some good examples of the level of detail that help keep people up to speed with how you are doing without giving out the formula.

I have already played up to turn 60 and know this is an interesting map.

Crosspollution is hard to avoid because if I go west and you go east and then we look at each other's position we basically get the benefits of both approaches. The key is to try an focus on the big picture of the sweeping movement decisions as well as the major strategy choices that should dominate the overall result.

If we look back at the handyandy game, there was great value in playing those opening moves in an open and declared manner. It is sort of like allowing everyone to watch your hands as they pass over the keyboard so that they can mimic the game progression.

Ultimately the objective is to have fun and push ourselves to the limits of our skills while leading a new echelon of players to rise up in basic skills. It is no fun to play in a multiplayer game where all the victims (AI and Human alike) are just barely above the functional level.

So, I would play my turns and save my saves and then upload them as time permits. There are a lot of contacts in this game and if someone is dilligent in the use of the legal tools in the game, it is possible to stay out in front of the cross contamination somewhat. An example would be that knowing where the babs are and getting to the babs would be two very different things.

The QSC scoring is really just to help rate the power of the positions in the game and much of this is impacted in the short run by various RNG results.

(the least powerful player gets the same number of oreos as the most powerful player.) ;)

4000 BC - The first decision, settler where we are? I don’t see a reason not to, so the capital is built.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1-LKENDTER-3550BC.zip
3450 BC - OK, time to pop the risky hut - What do you know, we get CB.
The other hut gives maps :crazyeye:
3200 BC - Unreal, 3rd goody hut and we get Bronze Working.
3050 BC - (I) Next research project is writing.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1-LKENDTER-3050BC.zip
3000 BC - Another goody hut to pop, free tech bonanza continues with the wheel.
(I) We don’t even rate on the most powerful nations chart.
2850 BC - Shanghai is formed, another food heavy city.
First contact with England, and I can tell expansionist - the are ahead of me despite my free tech.
2750 BC - England must have other contacts, as they have gained 2 more techs in just 2 turns.
2590 BC - The turn of first contact, America and the Zulu. We have 3 expansionist civs, all ahead with tech.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1-LKENDTER-2590BC.zip

Q1 Hotrod

4000 BC (1): Move worker to bonus grass and to check out the south. Decide to build in current spot, wonder how many will move away from the mountains. Found Beijing, good choice wheat many bonus grass, and cattle. Start warrior, start research on the wheel. Reason, it is the only tech I don't think any AI will pick first therefore should be very tradeable, due in 14 at 90%. Go away from my norm of pottery because of the food bonuses I won't be building an early granary.

3950 BC (2): Worker starts mine on bg.

3900 BC (3):

3850 BC (4):

3800 BC (5):

3750 BC (6): Build warrior start another. Heading NE.

3700 BC (7): hut to the NE.

3650 BC (8): Pass the hut for now, can't risk getting barbs with my only worker near by.

3600 BC (9):

3550 BC (10): Build warrior start another. He will head NW. Warrior 1 finds some coastline to the NE.





3500 BC (11): Bejing expands, change to settler. Grow and produce the settler in 7 turns.

3450 BC (12): See spice to the NE. Wheel due next turn, reduce research.

3400 BC (13): Learn wheel start HBR. Hoping for some great trades :). :smoke: maybe.

3350 BC (14): Start irrigation of the cattle.

3300 BC (15): There is a hut to the NW, some more spice and cattle.

3250 BC (16): Pop hut and get maps :(. At least it wasn't barbs. Will send warrior to the west.

3200 BC (17):

3150 BC (18): Settler continues on toward city spot 2 near the Cattle.

3100 BC (19): Contact Zulu warrior, they have CB, BW, and Pottery but don't need Wheel :(.

3050 BC (20): movements continue.



3000 BC (21): Found Shanghi, start warrior. See furs to the West.

2950 BC (22): more movement. sending worker to connect with Shanghi.

2900 BC (23): Continue movement.

2850 BC (24): Contact English, they have writing, HBR, CB, BW, Aphabet, pottery and contact with indians.

2800 BC (25): Learn HBR, start CB. Trade Zulus, HBR for Bronze, pottery, Ceremonial burial and 10 gold. Lizzy will trade mystism for contact with zulus but want mucho gold for alphabet. I decline for now. Current research Iron Working.

2750 BC (26): Shanghi builds warrior starts another.

2710 BC (27): Bejing builds settler starts another.

2670 BC (28): Continue movement, Shanghi warrior is moving to check out the SE.

2630 BC (29): Continue to move, still have the hut untouched. will leave it until the military is built up. Zulus already have myst, and IW. England has those plus aphlabet and Writing.

2590 BC (30): Settler 3 arrives at the next city site. I am hoping the early settlers will help me catch up in tech.







3550BC (http://civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_HOTROD_BC3550.zip)
3050BC (http://civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_HOTROD_BC3050.zip)
2590BC (http://civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_HOTROD_BC2590.zip)

Turns 1 to 10.

[list=1]
4000BC The starting position looks good enough and is taken.
The worker goes to work on the bonus grassland.
A couple of warriors are ordered.
Research set to Pottery at maximum pace.

3950BC ...
3900BC ...
3850BC ...

3800BC First warrior is trained and goes E. Another one is ordered.

3750BC ...

3700BC The Yayoi tribe taught us Bronze Working. :jump:
The worker moves to the next bonus grassland.

3650BC We discover Pottery, Alphabet started at maximum pace.

3600BC Second warrior trained, he goes W. Another one is ordered.

3550BC ...
[/list=1]


Turns 11 to 20.

[list=1]
3500BC ...

3450BC Third warrior trained, he goes N. A granary is ordered.

3400BC The worker moves E of Beijing to irrigate.

3350BC ...
3300BC ...
3250BC ...
3200BC ...

3150BC The North scout awakens angry barbarians. :(
The Tartar tribe taught us Ceremonial Burial. :jump:

3100BC We discover Alphabet, Writing started at maximum pace.
The north scout dies after defeating one barbarian. :(
The East scout turns around to face the barbarians.

3050BC ...
[/list=1]


Turns 21 to 30.

[list=1]
3000BC ...

2950BC Beijing grows to size 3, luxury raised to 10%.

2900BC A scout beats a barbarian and promotes.

2850BC The granary completes, a warrior is ordered.

2800BC ...

2750BC A new warrior is trained, just in time as the last barbarian is now at the gates. A settler is ordered.

2710BC More barbarians are disturbed. :(

2670BC My warrior dispatch all 3 barbarians and is now an elite. :goodjob:

2630BC ...
2590BC ...
[/list=1]

Here are the save games:
3550 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_jaxom_BC3550.sav)
3050 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_jaxom_BC3050.sav)
2590 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_jaxom_BC2590.sav)

Originally posted by cracker
I have already played up to turn 60 and know this is an interesting map.



Well "interesting" is one way to describe it ;)
I have played close to 100, and know how insane the map is since I have world wide contact.

The tech pace feels more emperor, if not deity. I can't remember the last time that a "monarchy" game had me as a Republic as early as I got it. I very much understand the not caught up in tech comment. I have at least tech parity with all civs, and am I slightly ahead of the rest. However, for the time of the game, I can’t believe that I have several middle ages techs.

Well, if it is ok with you guys, I want to start my first 10 turns over.

After about 8 moves I was reminded of Dorothy's saying to Toto (in the Wizard of Oz,) "My! Things come and go so quickly around here!"

Maybe I'm just not used to the Monarch level yet. :(:)

Anyway, before the end of my 10 turns, my worker was doing fine, and I sent my warrior happily eastward toward a hut (hoping for a new tech.) Instead when the hut was popped, out came three angry barbarians who destroyed my warrior, razed my city, and killed my worker. All in a flash - just like that. :cry:

So I am going to start over this time and hope to do better. I won't make a habit of starting over.

stwils

Originally posted by stwils
Well, if it is ok with you guys, I want to start my first 10 turns over.

After about 8 moves I was reminded of Dorothy's saying to Toto (in the Wizard of Oz,) "My! Things come and go so quickly around here!"

Maybe I'm just not used to the Monarch level yet. :(:)

Anyway, before the end of my 10 turns, my worker was doing fine, and I sent my warrior happily eastward toward a hut (hoping for a new tech.) Instead when the hut was popped, out came three angry barbarians who destroyed my warrior, razed my city, and killed my worker. All in a flash - just like that. :cry:

So I am going to start over this time and hope to do better. I won't make a habit of starting over.

stwils


Cracker has to make that decision. I think I know the hut you tried, as I popped the same one. However, I made sure my worker was OUT-OF-RANGE before trying. I very much timed the popping of the hut, and the position of the worker before trying for fear of just that.

I didn't even save the game. :o I can recreate those first turns if I should, but I'd prefer to try once more.

Never fear, guys. There is no way I'm going to win and get to the space ship first. :lol:

But I hope to learn.

stwils

So as we number our turns we start with 4000BC. Is that considered turn #1?

And when we get to turn #10 (hopefullly 3550BC) we just save it and don't press "Enter." Is that right?

Just trying to get the basics.

stwils

stwils,

Go ahead and play again, just document what you did (as you have honestly done.)

Remember that the general rules let you switch over at any point in the game and pick up play by using the save file of another player. All you need to do is make sure that your timeline or turns report makes it clear that the new turns begin with the starting turn borrowed from another player. So starting over in the first round could not really cripple you in the process.

Don't do this switching horses thing too early, but it is OK and should be viewed as a compliment by the player whose position you chose if you do decide to switch.

Betcha you won't ignore the discussion of the risks of popping a hut when your worker is right there and your only town is undefended, ever again. ;)

Oh, and here is a zip file with a MSword outline for a QSC timeline with the year numbers and save turns highlighted in case it may help you.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/timeline1.zip

You want to make sure you have the "wait at the end of the turn" preference turned on and then make all the moves that you want to have counted for that turn before saving the compressed save file. Once you confirm the save file for the timepoint is in place, then you can play on to the next timepoint without stopping if you are in the groove and so inclined.

You betcha! Will defend that town even as huts beckon.

stwils:)

Just a hint. Defending the town by standing in the town is not necessarily your best choice in many games. ;)

All glory is purchased at some risk. ;)

There are no medals for "Potato Peeler of the Year". ;) ;)

I can fortify? I think you mean something else. Not sure what.

I will enjoy learning in this thread as things unfold.

stwils

And p.s.

I am not going to be the potato peeler. You'll see...

stwils;)

Turns 1-30

4000 BC Beijing founded as I see no obvious reason to move it. Pottery research started at 100%.
3950 BC
3800 BC
3750 BC Beijing builds Warrior.
3650 BC Pottery research; research on Alphabet started.
3550 BC Bejing builds another Warrior; starts another. This warrior fortifies at home.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/QSC-c1-Borealis_bc3550.sav


3500 BC Beijing's boundaries expand.
3400 BC With three warriors, I risk popping the nearby hut. An angry Polynesian warrior is disturbed.
3350 BC My warrior wins his battles, and is promoted to elite. Beijing switches to Granary, since it has two exploring units.
3100 BC Alphabet discovered; research started on Writing. I'm gambling on getting techs from huts, or other civs.
3050 BC The Kushans teach us Bronze Working. :D

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/QSC-c1-Borealis_bc3550.sav

2900 BC Beijing buids Granary; starts settler. Beijing microed to grow just when its settler is built.
2630 BC Beijing builds setter; starts spear. Our elite warrior pops a hut, disturbing an angry Yue-Chi warrior. He survives his battle with 1 HP lost.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/QSC-c1-Borealis_bc25901.sav

(Edit: posted wrong save earlier for last point. Fixed to avoid oreo penalties. :blush: )

Here are my 30 turns 4000bc -2590bc

Turn 1 -4000bc
Settler builds Beijung on starting spot
Worker moves east to plains

Turn2- 3950bc
(We are set for Bronze Working)
Worker irrigates plains

Turn3 3900bc
Worker continues

Turn4 -3850bc
Worker roads irrigated square

Turn5 -3800
Worker roads

Turn6 -3750bc
Warrior is built
He moves north
Worker moves to cow

Turn7- 3700
Warrior goes north
Worker irrigates cow

Turn8 -3650bc
Warrior moves north

Turn9 - 3600bc
warrior moves NE
Worker builds road on irrigated square

Turn10 -3550bc
warrior goes east
worker continues roading



Turn11 -3500bc
we get another warrior
set to produce settler in 8 turns
fortify new warrior in city
worker moves to wheat
warrior goes east

Turn 12 -3450bc
warrior goes north
worker mines the wheat

Turn13 -3400bc
warrior goes ne to coast

Turn14 -3350bc
warrior still goes north

Turn15 -3300bc
warrior goes NW
worker roads wheat

Turn16 -3250bc
warrior goes west


Turn17 3200bc
warrior still goes west (he hasn't done too well so far.)
worker moves via road to bonus square next to city on the west

Turn18 -3150bc
worker mines bonus grass
a settler is produced and moves westard
set to produce another warrior
old warrior moves south to join settler

Turn19 -3100bc
We get Bronze Working; set to Wheel
warrior moves west
settler moves west

Turn#20 -3050bc
settler moves west
warrior moves west; sees a hut and ponders


Turn21 -3000bc
warrior pops hut. we get Alphabet!
worker roads on mine
settler goes west. Oops. He is by a coastal stream

Turn22 -2950bc
settler moves to bonus grass
warrior comes down to join him

Turn23- 2900bc
another warrior is produced; set to build spearman next
new warrior moves east via road and is fortified next to hut
settler builds Shanghai
old warrior moves toward Shanghai

Turn24-2850bc
An Englisman appears across the coastal stream
warrior moves west
worker mines bonus grass

Turn25-2800bc
Elizabeth wants us to give her 40 gold for pottery. We say yes.
warrior moves west

Turn26 -2750bc
fortified warrior on the strip of land close to the Englishman
Damn. Our worker irrigated the bonus grass instead of mining it. ^$#^%
He now builds a road

Turn27- 2710bc
I wake the fortified warrior and move him via road to other warrior near hut. Both are fortified

Turn28 -2670bc
Shanghai builds warrior; set to build worker
fortified new warrior
worker in Beijing moves to another bonus grass
Spearman is built and fortified. Set to build granary
I wake up the 2 fortified warriors. They pop the but and three furious barbarians pour out.
One of our warriors killes a barbarian

Turn29 -2630bc
All the barbarians are killed! And we have a veteran warrior.
I press space bar to heal our warrior that was wounded
worker mines bonus grass

Turn30- 2590bc
warrior moves south east

I can't seem to send all three saves in the same post.
Here is another

And the last

We'll have to see if anyone else takes this approach. ;)

4000 BC (turn 1) – Found Beijing in the start point. See the cow and the wheat. Yeehaw! Move the worker to the G+ square. Research Pottery at Max rate.
Test costs to research base techs: CB=26, Wheel=54, Pottery=26, Alphabet=66, BW=20
3900 BC (turn 3) – (road completes on G+)
3750 BC (turn 6) – Warrior1 out of Beijing moves NE to mountain and sees hut. (mine completes)
3700 BC (turn 7) – Discovered Pottery. Worker1 moves to mountain NE of Beijing in route to cow. Warrior1 turns straight north.
3600 BC (turn 9) – Warrior1 sees mountains north.
3550 BC (turn 10) – Warrior2 out of Beijing moves west along road then straight south and sees gold hill to the west choose forest south. (mine completes on G+). Road


3500 BC (turn 11) – Borders expand. Warrior1 continues north onto mountain and can see coast. Warrior2 continues south.
3450 BC (turn 12) – Warrior1 NW onto hill. Warrior2 continues straight south and runs into hut.
3400 BC (turn 13) – Worker2 out of Beijing hits plains forest. Warrior2 gets a friendly Mongol settler out of the hut and he founds Shanghai. We cans see furs and tundra further south. Warrior1 heads straight north onto mountain and can see beaucoup coastline.
3350 BC (turn 14) – Worker1 completes cow road and mine and moves to clear forest NE of wheat. Warrior2 continues straight south from Shanghai.
3300 BC (turn 15) – Warrior2 sees a wall of snowy mountains south of Shanghai.
3250 BC (turn 16) – Warrior1 meets the Zulus north of the mountain choke point. Shaka is CB, Bronze, Alphabet and Wheel ahead.Warrior2 turns west and sees the coast and a hut.
3200 BC (turn 17) – Warrior2 disturbs a host of angry Tartar warriors.
3150 BC (turn 18) – Warrior2 defeats all the Tartars and is now elite. Micromanage research to conserve cash.
3100 BC (turn 19) – Discovered Alphabet. Warrior1 keeps Zulu Warrior under observation. Plains forest cleared SE of Beijing to help build granary.
3050 BC (turn 20) – 2nd forest cleared at Beijing.


3000 BC (turn 21) – Plains SE of Beijing are now irrigated to extend H2O to wheat. Warrior2 mounts hill, sees wine, and meets a cautious Libby settler and conscript guard. Libby is CB, Math, Wheel, and BW ahead. Worker3 out of Shanghai to improve the cow.
2950 BC (turn 22) – Attack the English Settler and conscript guard and gain two slaves from Libby (I bet she will think twice about not settling and fortifying where she stood next time. Not.) Granary is complete in Beijing
2900 BC (turn 23) – Warrior1 spies the Zulu border while shadowing the Zulu warrior north northwest. Warrior2 (3/5) draws back up onto the hill to defend the choke point. Slaves begin road back toward Beijing across the hills. Worker2 move to G+ square 2SW of Beijing.
2800 BC (turn 25) – Warrior3 garrisons Beijing. Worker1 moves to link road east to cow.
2750 BC (turn 26) –
2710 BC (turn 27) – Worker3 moves to road back to Beijing. Warrior1 is looping back to the north choke point. Warrior2(5/5) is healed and fortified on hills. Two english warriors show up to try and get around our warrior gatekeeper.
2630 BC (turn 29) – Hills at choke have roads, Warrior2 (5/5) shuttles between. Libby's warriors are afraid to attack our elite warrior. Settler out of Beijing heads for choke point.
2590 BC (turn 30) –

Here are the save files:


cracker's 3550bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_cracker_bc3550.sav)
cracker's 3050bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_cracker_bc3050.sav)
cracker's 2590bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_cracker_bc2590.sav)

3400 BC (turn 13) – Worker2 out of Beijing hits plains forest. Warrior2 gets a friendly Mongol settler out of the hut and he founds Shanghai.



Game, set and match. This is exactly why I didn't want huts. I did think of this as somewhat of a competition, and that type of luck with a good player is almost impossible to beat.

Lee, is it always a matter of luck what comes out? Both times I popped the hut to the east of my city (once in a failed game and then in another try when I had two warriors) I got 3 barbs.

But would someone else by chance get a tech or a settler instead of barbs?

Are what in the huts there for everyone? Or is there something random about what comes out?

stwils:confused:

What comes out of a hut is MOSTLY luck.
However, expansionist will NEVER get barbs.
If you pop a hut before any military, no barbs.
To get the settler you must not have any settlers on the map, or being built.
In addition it can only happen early in the game - however, I can’t find the thread to say if it is
1) Less cities then AI cities
2) Less cities then # of AI civs.
I think the second, but several people say the first.
Once the middle ages appear - no techs.

But what I am asking is this:

Let's say you and I download the same succession game to start playing at 4000bc.

Is it going to be constant what comes out of goodie hut " A" for you as well as for me? Or will there be differences between what we each may get?

stwils

No - Each hut is a random event. If you hit it one turn later, the RnG will draw a different number, and give you a different event.

Consider my report
3450 BC - OK, time to pop the risky hut - What do you know, we get CB.
My risky hut was the one to the east, close to the capital.

Stwils,

All 3 will put you over the size limit for attachments, the form seems to work better if you use the upload feature.

As far as the barbs go the only reason I didn't pop that hut to the east was fear of barbs. One of the many things I learned in the Handy game is to be careful of huts too close to the capital. I popped it in that game and got maps and asked why others, cracker included passed it by. The answer was the chance of barbs. That made we think twice in this game. I went back and checked out what happens if I bee-line to the hut with the first warrior, I got destroyed.

Hotrod

Here's my first 30 turns

1) 4000 BC

worker moves SE along the river onto b-grass to scout, sees two more bg's in that dirction.
Beijing founded where the settler is standing, and... nice, two food bonues.
Research set to the cheapest tech -- Pottery, at max.
Beijing starts on a warrior

2) 3950 BC
worker starts on roading the square that he currently starts on.

3) 3900 BC

nada

4) 3850 BC

worker finishes road, moves to the plain tile E of Beijing.

5) 3800 BC

worker starts irrigating.
Science dialed down to 70%, pottery still in 2.

6) 3750 BC

Our first warrior is trained out of Beijing. He heads towards the mountain to the NW of the city.
I order a second warrior.

7) 3700 BC

pottery is finished. CB next.
worker finishes irrigating, starts road.

8) 3650 BC

warrior continues to trek atop the mountain ridge to our west, an inland sea is sighted.

9) 3600 BC

the scouting warrior continues his westward march.
the worker finishes road, and head toward the cattles.

10) 3550 BC

the cattles are being irrigated. Mooo...

11) 3500 BC

our wester scout follows the mountian ridge as it turns up north. Jungle, Spice, a goodie hut and more mountian are within view.
Beijing expands and finishes a warrior. The new warrior is send along the road to the hill 2 tiles east of the city. Yep, it's the coast.
What should Beijing build now? I don't see any really good spot around yet to justify an early settler. If I go with a granary, it's going to tie up Beijing for quite a while, and afterwards Beijing will have enough food to do settler none stop. It's eventually going to get to that point. I decided that I need more scouting an military protection, so a third worrior is ordered up next.

12) 3450 BC

The hut on the mountain next to the spice turns out to be empty. The eastern scout heads NE, avoiding the hut for now.
Worker finishes irrigating, starts road.
science down to 10%.

13) 3400 BC

What to research next? Bronze or Wheel? I'm not going to build spears for a while yet. Wheel it is.

14) 3350 BC

Worker finishes road, goes onto the wheat square.

15) 3300 BC

Third worrior finishes. Faced with the choice of staying home or scouting, I choose scouting. It will cost money because Beijing will grow to size 3 on the next turn, so it is bad for quickstart points short-term-wise, but I believe finding a good second city site to our south is more important long term.
Speaking of the second city, a setter is ordered up.
Worker starts irrigating the wheat.

16) 3250 BC

The western scout now stands on what appears to be a mountaineous land bridge. The eastern scout sights another spice, this time in a forrest, the new southern scout heads toward the gold hill.
Beijing grows to 3, Lux to 10%, Wheel now due in 6. Setter due in 7, growth in 5.

17) 3200 BC

The western scout sees a goodie hut and gem; the eastern scout step into the spice forrest and finds cattles grazing right next to him; the sourthern scout finds more of the inland see and a wheat.

18) 3150 BC

The Shiagan tribe contributes 25 gold to our coffers. More river grassland to the NE, and wine next to the inland sea!

19) 3100 BC

Adjust Beijing worker from wheat to forrest, Beijing will now grow in 2 and finish settler in 3.
Worker move towards the bonus grasslands.

20) 3050 BC

Worker starts mine.

21) 3000 BC

Beijing to size 4. Lux to 20%. Science to 50%, Wheel still due in 2.

22) 2950 BC

Southern warrior meets up with an English warrior/settler pair. They are up Bronze, Alphabet, and Mysticism on us.
Beijing finishes setter. He is sent towards the English.
Yellow border seen up north.
Research is set to nil. I want enough money to buy Alphabet ASAP.

23) 2850 BC

In between turns, a yellow Zulu pair of settler and warrior shows up. They have the exact same tech the the English. So they have met (or not... but what are the chances)
I trade 42 gold to Liz for Alphabet, and starts min research on Math.

24) 2800 BC

Shanghai founded north of the one tile inland lake, with two tiles of overlap with Beijing.
Beijing grows back to size 3. 10% Lux. The eastern warrior is heading back home to ease the lux burden.

25) 2750 BC

Northern (formally western) scout sees grey border), heads towards it.

26) 2710 BC

...

27) 2670 BC

As expected, the grey people turned out to be the Indians. They have Bronze but lack Masonry, Pottery and Wheel. Trade is made: Masonry -> Bronze + all of his gold. Liz is the only one with Iron Working.

28) 2630 BC

Beijing reaches size 4, tiles are rearrange to make it grow in 5 and finish the granary in 4.

29) 2590 BC

Shanghai finishes warrior, starts another one.

30) 2550 BC

Last turn this round, time for diplomatics. What! Zulus have Writing, but does not yet have relations with the Indians or English! HA!
Contact with Indians + 6 gold to Shaka for contact with the Americans...
but Lincoln does not have writing. Bah, now I have to buy writing at monopoly price, but that's still better than letting Shaka broker the contacts around.
Contact with English + 4gpt +46 gold to Shaka for Writing.
Contact with Americans + Writing to Liz for 40 gold (that was cheap, I guess she was researching Writing)
Writing to Abe for Mysticism + 16 gold.
At the end the round, Shaka, Abe and I are at tech parity, Liz is ahead by Iron and Horseback Riding, and poor Ganhdi is left behind.


http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/q1-SJF-2550BC.sav
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/q1-SJF-2550BC.sav
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/q1-SJF-2550BC.sav

Here is something else that I found interesting:

Originally posted by cracker
2950 BC (turn 22) – Attack the English Settler and conscript guard and gain two slaves from Libby

I had the chance to do the same thing on my turn 22. So it was probably on the same spot too. Of course I did not attack. There were two differences in the situation. One, Cracker had an Elite warrior, while I only had a regular, and two, I'm a peaceful player at heart. Looking back, I think that even if I had an elite warrior, I would still not have attacked. It simply never occured to me.

My opening build sequence was:

warrior-warrior-warrior-settler-granary

My reasoning was that once Beijing is outfitted with a granary, it can produce 1 setter every 4 turns none stop, therefore I wanted to get a military training city up and running before Beijing starts cranking out settlers none stop. Do you think it's :smoke: or :goodjob: ?

As I told cracker, one interest in this game for me was to try
something that's NOT my typical opening, but something I've been experimenting with lately. So don't laugh too hard if it
doesn't work out :P I'll give more 'reasoning' behind the
choices made on these first turns in the second "set" of posts...

Set 1A
4000 BC - We found where we stand, worker heads to bonus grass, and start a... barracks.
3950 BC - Road in 2, mine in 3, gotta love industrious! :P
We'll mine first then road, then head to the cattle,
making a road along the way.
3600 BC - We start an archer, rax now done.
3550 BC - Here we are, very 'slow' start by score no doubt,
as we've explored nothing and have a low treasury.

Set1B
3500 BC - Culture border expands. Ah, goody hut nearby.
If I hit it now, with no military and no settler in
queue, it shouldn't be 'bad'. Will do road first anyway.
3400 BC - If no one researched the wheel, HBR should be
a good sell too. Goes nice with the all-offense no-defense
theme here, rather than Bronze Working. With the archer
due next turn, we hit the hut now -- Ceremonial Burial.
We'll lay down a road then come back and mine the cow.
3350 BC - First archer is ready. Now where is our fresh
meat? To the north is a lot of flood plains, possibly
great food, easy to get a settler. To the NE is our nicely
laid road. From the slight view of water I would say a
coast lies to our east. More river down south to explore.
The question is... where are the horses? May as well use
the mountains nearby to expand our view.

Growth/Settler due in 5/8 or 15/6. We can grow in six with
settler in 6 or 7, shifting tiles and/or getting extra shields
on the growth turn.

3250 BC - Not seeing much, a lake to the NW (coast, but water's
food says 2) Only 'plain' flood plains to North.

3150 BC - Ah, spices to the north, as we continue along mtn.
It's six steps away, there's a hill we could found on,
on a river, north of the capital and 3 steps from each.
Still... we want a horse spot asap.

3100 BC - Excellent, we hit size three and 7 shields per turn,
needing just seven to pop our settler, so he's due next round.
The worker will hit the wheat next, and probably chop a forest
to get fresh water over to it. Our archer scout sees goody
hut and another spice.

3050 BC - The hut gives us Pottery, very good. It also continues
the mountain range seach. Actually, I was expecting to meet
someone yet, but the fact I haven't is just my chosen style's
poor exploration.

Set 1C
2900 BC - We found Shanghai, not far away, and it starts a settler.
Coast seen to the NE, and another lux of some sort east.

2750 BC - Horses are spotted! NW of capital and Shanghai.
I plan to settle just SW of them, next to fish and fresh lake.
Our second archer is rdy and we need to see what is to our South.
Our second research choice is Bronze, btw, since we're so martial.

2670 BC - That forest chop got our archer out with no waste,
and now we can start a settler, growth and finish due in 5-6.
The worker will now irrigate over to the wheat, then road up
to other cities. We'll send this archer out SW, the other SE.

Woo, river-wheat-horse spot just SOUTH of us! Even better!
I note my first weed too, didn't HAVE to chop forest to get
water to the wheat of course, the plains tile would do. In
fact we do that one instead of the grass (useless in despotism)

2630 BC - Goody hut and gems seen well up north. (Going to sidestep to get a good view of things in case the hut is ugly)
2590 BC - Finally, as we're starting to wonder if we're on an
island, we see a border. Tis orange -- English!

Charis 3550BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_Charis_BC3550.sav)
Charis 3050BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_Charis_BC3050.sav)
Charis 2590BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_Charis_BC2590.sav)

:hammer:
Charis

PS I agree with Lee - there should be no catching up to a settler from a hut, I wish there was a flag to turn that off at game generation time. I've been in a competition game where I was the only one NOT to get the settler, not a fun game comparison. C'est la vie. Next set of turns should be very fun anyway!

I think just as key as the early free settler is the "free" workers. As an industrial civ even slaves will work at "regular" speed. 2 free workers and an early settler is nearly impossible to match.

Hotrod

(1) 4000BC
I activate the worker first and move him SE onto the bonus grassland.
Beijing founded at the start location. Warrior begun for exploration.
Press F6 to begin research on pottery - this gains an extra turn on research.
Science to 100% will net us pottery in 7 turns.

(2) 3950BC
Worker begins mining the shielded grassland.

(3) 3900BC
(4) 3850BC
(5) 3800BC
Worker completes mine, road started.

(6) 3750BC
Warrior appears at Beijing. He is sent N to explore, seeing as we're in the Southern half of the minimap.

(7) 3700BC
Worker completes road, and is moved SE again onto a second bonus grassland next to the river. The borders of Beijing will expand to enclose this tile before the mine completes.
Our warrior moves onto the mountain two tiles NW of Beijing, and sees floodplains and more rivers ahead.
Pottery is researched. For China it is imperative that we find horses fast, so next tech to research is the Wheel. Due in 11 turns.

(8) 3650BC
Warrior moves E onto another mountain. Coast is spotted. There are more mountains in this chain, so the warrior will head NW then N to maximize the terrain that is uncovered.

(9) 3600BC
(10) 3550BC
Second warrior is completed. He goes to the mountain to the NE of Beijing and spies a goody hut to the East.
Our NW warrior spies jungle... and spices.

Q1 - Arizona_Steve - 3550BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_Arizona_Steve_3550BC.zip)

(11) 3500BC
Beijing borders expand, just as the second mine completes and the population grows.
Beijing production switched from warrior to granary. It'll mean that our first settler will be popped later, but subsequent settlers will appear much quicker.
NE warrior heads toward goody hut.
Worker completes mine, starts road.
Shift the new citizen from the cow to the mines bonus grassland. Granary build reduced from 15 to 12 turns.
Goody hut spotted in jungle by NW warrior.

(12) 3450BC
NE warrior pops goody hut and gets Ceremonial Burial.
NW warrior pops goody hut and gets maps.

(13) 3400BC
Worker completes road, moves NE/NE/E onto plains square to irrigate next turn (the strategy here is to get the cow and wheat irrigated).
E warrior spots coast from a hill.

(14) 3350BC
Worker begins irrigating plains tile en route to cow/wheat. Warriors continue exploring.

(15) 3300BC
(16) 3250BC
Worker completes irrigation, starts road.
Our wise men discover the Wheel. Next tech is Horseback Riding in 10 turns.

(17) 3200BC
Furs are spotted beyond the NW lake.

(18) 3150BC
Worker completes road, moves onto cow tile.
Horses are found to the SE of Beijing.

(19) 3100BC
(20) 3050BC

Q1 - Arizona_Steve - 3050BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_Arizona_Steve_3050BC.zip)

(21) 3000BC
Luxuries to 10% as the population hits 3 and no military police are present (science to 90%).
Worker irrigates cow tile, starts road.
Granary completes at Beijing - settler started.

(22) 2950BC
We contact the English. Elizabeth is cautious towards us. They are four techs ahead of us, having Horseback Riding, Bronze Working, Alphabet and Mysticism. They only have 10 gold in the treasury however.
Drop science from 90% to 70% as we are losing 1 gold/turn.

(23) 2900BC
Worker completes road, moves to wheat to irrigate.

(24) 2850BC
NW warrior spies a grey border to the North.

(25) 2800BC
S warrior finds another goodie hut.

(26) 2750BC
Luxuries to 20% as Beijing grows to 4. Settler due next turn.
The goodie hut is popped, and gives us Alphabet.
Wheat is irrigated, road started.
NW warrior reaches the grey border, but there is no-one to talk to.
We learn the secrets of Horseback Riding. I switch to mathematics at minimum (10%) science. Mathematics is rarely researched quickly by the AI.
Beijing spits out a settler, and starts another.

(27) 2710BC
I'm going to put the settler on the hill to the South of Beijing. This gets the horses within range without having to build a temple. The disadvantage is that the city is not on a river, however, it will share fewer tiles with the capital.
A polite Ghandi contacts us, offering Bronze Working in exchange for Masonry. In contrast to the English, he has no other techs to offer us, but we are ahead of him by Pottery and the Wheel. I take the straight exchange, seeing as he can't build anything with Masonry apart from the Pyramids (let's waste some AI shields on wonders).

(28) 2670BC
Contact made with an American scout. Lincoln is cautious and has Iron Working and Mysticism for sale. We can offer him The Wheel.
England has writing, but they do not have contact with either India or America. I sell England both contacts in exchange for Writing. Elizabeth is now polite towards us.
I see that Lincoln has contact with the Zulu available for sale.
Ghandi also has Iron Working, Mysticism and contact with the Zulu available - they will also give us the best price for all three, so Writing, the Wheel and 13 gold go Ghandi's way.
Should have done this last turn - luxuries to 0%.
Zululand, incidentally, do not have anything to offer. We are ahead of them by writing.

(29) 2630BC
Luxuries to 10% - Beijing grew last turn.

(30) 2590BC
Shanghai built on the hill. Horses are immediately East, and inside the border. A warrior is ordered.

Q1 - Arizona_Steve - 2590BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_Arizona_Steve_2590.zip)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Arizona_Steve
[B](1) 4000BC
.
Press F6 to begin research on pottery - this gains an extra turn on research.
Science to 100% will net us pottery in 7 turns.


I had forgotten all about using F6 at the start to begin research. Thanks for the reminder.

stwils:)

here's my turns to 2590bc, just brief notes on the turns something happened

4000 moved worker onto moutain for look around,see cattle to NE and wheat to SE, moved settler E, both bonus' in radius from start but we are not on river.

3950 bejing founded start warrior, sci set to 100% and alphabet
move worker to pop goody... no military no barbs

3900 pop goody get 25gp

3700 warrior built start another

3550 warrior built start settler


3400 meet liz trade masonary for pottery/alphabet and 1 gp. sci set to writing

3250 settler built start granary

3050 shanghai built start warrior



2800 english settler/warrior moves adjacent to elite warrior in W shanghai builds warrior starts another
declare war on liz and attack war/sett win and get 2 workers
meet shaka and trade masonary for CB and 7 gold

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1-SWIFTSURE-3550BC.zip
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1-SWIFTSURE-3050BC.zip
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1-SWIFTSURE-2590BC.zip

(1) 4000 BC - Worker east, heading for cattle (and wheat as it turns out). Build Beijing on starting square. Start training warriors. Start researching Pottery at max sci.

(2) 3950 BC - Worker starts roads to cattle.

(7) 3700 BC - Worker starts irrigating to cattle. Research Pottery (The Wheel next) since Horses will be the military unit of choice.

--

(11) 3500 BC - Worker to wheat. Warrior 1 to close goody hut reveals barbarians. Warrior 2 moves to help. Barbarians move into an annoying position and only one is defeated by warrior 1.

(12) 3450 BC - Warrior 2 moves back in to city to defend it. Worker moves out of danger. Barbarian pillages plains square and the other is defeated by Warrior 2 who promotes.

(13) 3400 BC - Final barbarian defeated.

(14) 3350 BC - Worker moves back onto wheat to road and irrigate (including the pillaged plains). Beijing starts Settler.

(15) 3300 BC - Warriors start heading north, one kind of easterly and the other westerly.

(18) 3150 BC - Research The Wheel (Horseback Riding next).

--

(21) 3000 BC - Eastern warrior discovers horses. Western warrior pops goody hut to give us an extra warrior. Taxes balanced for +0gpt as Beijing produces a settler (starts training another warrior).

(24) 2850 BC - Worker to bonus grassland by Beijing to road and mine. Spot English warrior. The English are way more advanced and we can't afford any techs from them.

(25) 2800 BC - Beijing starts another settler. Eastern warrior pops a goody hut for yet another warrior.

(26) 2750 BC - Found Shanghai N-N-N-NE of Beijing (by a cattle square), and starts building Granary. Warrior off to Shanghai to defend it. Back to max sci.

(29) 2630 BC - Spot Zulu borders and Zulu settler pair. They are also way more advanced than me! They have Writing, contacts with the Americans and the Indians. Research Horseback Riding (Alphabet next). I decide to simply follow them up the tech tree and hope to nab the Great Library.

(30) 2590 BC - Spot English border. Worker heads off for Shanghai having improved 4 squares around Beijing. I have four scouts, two are north by the Zulu border. One is west, another is south-west.

---

The saves:
Theos's 3550 BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_theos_BC3550.zip)
Theos's 3050 BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_theos_BC3050.zip)
Theos's 2590 BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_theos_BC2590.zip)

4000 BC (1)
Found on spot. Start researching pottery. Worker to BG.

3950 BC (2)
Worker starts road.

3900 BC (3)
ZZZZ

3850 BC (4)
Worker starts mine

3800 BC (5)
ZZZZ
(I) First warrior done, start second warrior.

3750 BC (6)
Warrior1 NE to mountain top.
(I) Finish Pottery start Bronze Working.

3700 BC (7)
Worker to plains between cow and wheat. Warrior1 north.

3650 BC (8)
Worker starts road, warrior1 north.

3600 BC (9)
Warrior1 NW towards mountain.
(I) Second warrior finishes start worker.

3550 BC (10)
Warrior2 southwest using road. Warrior to top of mountain, spots spices. Worker moves to cow.(I) Borders expand.

Meldor 3550 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/)Q1_Meldor_BC3550.zip)

3500 BC (11)
Warrior1 N spots coastline, Warrior2 sees wheat to the south and heads that way.

3450 BC (12)
Warrior1 N, Warrior2 S, there is a second wheat and some gold hills.
(I) Worker2 completes, start warrior.

3400 BC (13)
Worker mine cow, Worker to irrigate to wheat. Warrior1 N, Warrior2 S, goodie hut across river.

3350 BC (14)
Pop hut get nasties. Warrior 1 turns W.
(I) Warrior survives all three attacks, goes elite.

3300 BC (15)
Cows and furs to the south, meet tundra. Warrior1 finds large lake.

3250 BC (16)
Worker2 begins working wheat, worker1 starts building road to Shanghai site. Warrior1 meets the Zulu, they have CB and Wheel. No deals to be made. There is a choke point there and we will occupy it. Warrior2 turns W.
(I) Warrior3 completes we start settler.

3200 BC (17)
Warrior1 squats on choke point. Warrior2 W hits coast, Warrior3 west.

3150 BC (18)
Warrior2 forced NW but finds wines. Warrior3 W finds lake shore.

3100 BC (19)
Warrior2 forced north on hill finds two tile choke point. Warrior3 forced north along shore.

3050 BC (20)
Warrior2 W, Warrior3 North.

Meldor 3050 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/)Q1_Meldor_BC3050.zip)

3000 BC (21)
Warroir2 NW, Warrior3 north.

2950 BC (22)
Warrior2 NW, Warrior3 NW to hill and yet another choke point. Worker2 is now working on second BG for Beijing.

2900 BC (23)
Warrior2 watches an english warrior and settler come into view. She has Alphabet as well as CB and Wheel. She refuses to negotiate for peace so we get two free workers. Warrior3 moves from hill to mountain and spots spices and more furs.
(I) English warrior comes into view of warrior3. Since the settler pair was moving east when they came into view, I assume England is in that direction and not to the north. This warrior is probably being recalled for action.

2850 BC (24)
Fortify warrior3, warrior2 retreats with workers to choke point.
(I) We get the Whell and start Horseback Riding.

2800 BC (25)
Move warrior3 back, both are regular and I want the English warrior on grass not in forest.
(I) English warrior attacks and loses. Settler completed and heads for first choke point with wines. Start warrior.

2750 BC (26)
Warrior3 refortifies.

2710 BC (27)
Movement.

2670 BC (28)
English scout spoted running around.

2630 BC (29)
Nada.
(I) Complete warrior4, start settler.

2590 BC (30)
Shanghai founded on hill at chokepoint1 Two english warriors apper out of the fog. Warrior4 headed for Shanghai.

Meldor 2590 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/)Q1_Meldor_BC2590.zip)

I have tried a little bit of a gambit by building a second worker before a settler. Unfortunately, war with England may have taken any advatage of that away. We will see.

I guess my opening was not as unique as I thought it was. I ahve used this opening in some of my games with industrious civs and lots of food. I thought it would make a good comparison.

I also thought I would be the only one to go to war this early. I never pass up a settler/warrior pair this early. It was likely the first english settler so they wilol be set back a lot, I get two free slaves, and she is now building warriors instead of expanding.

As I mentioned above the war may take away the advantage I had in building that first worker as the settler did not go were I wanted, but we will see.

I was thinking like Charis, rather than view this as a must win competition, I think it is a perfect chance to try out those alternate openings and see were they lead. So for that reason free techs and free settlers don't bother me. Of course, I got none of those.

@Meldor,

> I was thinking like Charis, rather than view this as a must win
> competition, I think it is a perfect chance to try out those
> alternate openings and see were they lead. So for that reason
> free techs and free settlers don't bother me. Of course, I got
> none of those.

It's *because* I want to compare how this experimental opening does vs others that the settler pop is annoying. Yes it's "part of the game" but it invalidates any comparison. Tis like getting a super powerup pill that converts you from Emperor diff to Monarchy diff. I got bit again in the most recent Epic, looking forward to seeing how others did in Iroquois early domination, because I feel I did something slow/wrong at the start, but can't put my finger on just what. I was looking forward to comparing with other games. One of those others got a free settler and he finished hundreds of years before myself and another deity lvl player. His own comment was "this was the easiest and highest scoring Emperor game I've ever played". Mind you, the player did a great job of playing, and it's not his "choice" to pop a settler, nevertheless you get a game with Monarchy difficulty and Emperor scoring and AI pace when this happens.

APART from getting lucky on the settler, it looks like cracker had a VERY good opening here, and like you hit upon the settler-whacking strategy. What I won't get to see is how good his strategy is, after taking into account the effect of being at war for what he did, because that effect can't be separated in the QSC from the settler pop. In scientists or statistician's terms, such an extraordinary event breaks down an otherwise "controlled experimental design" and creates an "outlier". Real life has outliers of course, but I was viewing this more as a nice control experiment - which needs a "no city or settler from huts" flag.

Actually Meldor's game takes on increased interest for me as I do really want to see how well "whack settler pairs" works as an opening strategy. (I'm guessing pretty good, on Monarchy)

I hope it's clear I'm disappointed in the tainted comparison and not the final score. And if others don't view it as tainted but part of the game, that's fine, we just have a divergent opinion. In any case, it's a done deal, and we'll have fun with the rest of the game! :goodjob:

Charis

I have to agree with Charis, Meldor and Lee here - and will probably take note of my game vs their games, as opposed to Cracker's game with the free settler.

All are excellent players - it'll be interesting to see how much of an effect the free settler and English workers will have on Cracker's game vs the others.

I played one Deity game where I got an extra settler from a hut, and managed to keep up with the AI's expansion, despite their 40% production advantage.

Well I gotten a few free workers too - I just paid $25 for the privilege.

Mine will be a different comparision as I went the Space Race and massive tech trading route, including the classic research in different directions play.

I have played into the very early AD period, and I am dying to see where I wind up versus the early war play.

Or course, I can start to build riders :satan:

Originally posted by Charis
It's *because* I want to compare how this experimental opening does vs others that the settler pop is annoying. Yes it's "part of the game" but it invalidates any comparison.
..........
I hope it's clear I'm disappointed in the tainted comparison and not the final score........

:goodjob:

Charis
I think that is why we play with so many people. If this was just a comparison between 3 or 4 it would have a profound effect. If the amount of free tech out of the huts will have an effect. However, with 10 people playing, and only one or two having "extraordinary" luck, the rest can still be compared.

I would also olike to see this as an ongoing series of games, so that those outliers can be taken out. If we play three games like this, he won't get the same luck with the huts every time.

That said however, there is a legitimate strategy in when and how to pop the huts. One thing not mentioned here yet, is that I, unless forced to do so, I never pop a hut with a settler active or building. If a settler is building, I will switch to a temple or something else before I pop the hut and then switch back to the settler after the hut is popped. I also have been known to pop a hut that is close with the first worker, before the first warrior is built. I thought about doing that in this case, but I didn't find out about the hut until after the worker had moved onto the BG. Had I known right away, I would have wasted a few worker turns to pop it first. I have found that in that case all of the bad things are out of play and you have a fair chance of a free settler. This is espcially nice to do if the tile you want to work first is near the hut to start.

As for whacking the settler, the effect of this goes way beyond just buying a couple of workers from a civ. It is that free settler from the hut in reverse, and it puts that civ on a war footing while you do just enough to keep them occupied. The question to be answered here, does keeping them occupied put too much of a dent in your developement? I don't know how it will play out in this game, but I suspect I will get the chance to settle all of the area inside the choke points with little competition form the AIs, at least until they run out of space and start sending galleys.

Unlike others here, I have not played ahead, I willl probably do so tonight and tomorrow night, as I don't want even a small unintentional amount of cross pollination.

Lee, are you saying that had I popped that hut to the east of Beijing with the worker before the first warrior was built, I probably would not have gotten those three fierce barbarians?

(You remember I started my game over as my warrior popped that hut before the 10 turns and barbs came out, destroyed the warrior, the worker, and razed the city.)

Did having a warrior built (and /or popping the hut) increase the chances of barbarians instead of a settler coming out?

I have read - as you said - that if you are building a settler or have one then no settler will come out of the hut. I get that.

But what increases your chances of barbarians coming out?:(

stwils

Oops.

I meant to address the above post to Meldor, not Lee.

stwils

If you have no military built, you can not get barbs out of a hut. If I understand correctly, for those civs that are expansionist, scouts do not count as military as they have no attack/defense value. I will look for the thread that had the outcomes in it and post a link here.

This is from the good folks at 'Poly taken directly from a chat with the developers

On Goody Hut Discoveries
Here are the conditions:

Gold:
--The tile must not have any type of resource or luxury on it.

Maps:
--always available

Nothing:
--always available

Settler:
--Player must not have a settler (active or in production) or any unit with the Settle AI strategy.
--Player must have less cities than (TotalCities / NumActivePlayers).

Mercenaries (skilled warrior):
--There must be a unit available to the Barbarians as well as the player and that unit must be able to be built (or have been built) by some player in the game.

Tech:
--Player must still be in Ancient Times.

Barbarians:
--Player must not have Expansionist trait.
--There must not be a city within a 1-tile radius.
--The player must have at least 1 city.
--The player must have at least 1 military unit.
--The unit popping the hut must not have the "All Terrain As Roads" ability.



Compiled Firaxian Comments on Undocumented Game Features (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54750)

Expansionist civ will never pop barbarians whether they have military or not. Of course, that doesn't stop an AI warrior to pop barbarians from a hut by your scout :)

Using the above guide, popping the hut with a worker before your first military unit is built can only have these results:
Nothing - the worst result.
Maps - the next worst result, but will save same on early exploration, maybe.
Gold - better than maps, at least it can be used to buy tech or workers.
Tech - the next best thing to.....
Settler - the cream of the crop, this early means an easier game for you.

To me, you have a 3 out of 5 chance at something nice and a 4 out of 5 of something positive. All at the cost of 3 worker turns.

Thanks, all.

So just for fun, I think I will "replay" my opening 10 moves, not to submit or anything, but to see what happens if I move a worker to the goodie hut to the east at the beginning of the game.

stwils

OK. I just tried playing 3 times with letting the first worker pop the hut before the warrior was built.

Time#1 - worker popped hut and got 25 gold

Time#2- worker popped hut and got 25 gold

Time #3 - this time the worker built a road on the way but popped the hut before warrior was produced : got Ceremonial Burial.

I leave it to the experts among you to figure this out.

stwils

You can play around with which turn the worker pops the hut and get different results for each turn. However, unless the game was created with the option to preserve the RnG turned off, you will always get the same result from the same move sequence (popping the hut on the same turn). If the RnG preserve is off then you can save the game at that point and pop the hut repeatedly until you get the results you like. This is, of course, concidered cheating and is not allowed in any civ3 community.

The huts are totally random events tripped by the RnG.

There are some rules that govern the choices, as I mentioned earlier.

Sorry to have been out of pocket for several days.

A little Off topic but:

I have had some severe technical difficulties due to PTW testing for a friend of mine that manages software at the local Best Buy. They have had so many copies of GOTY and PTW returned by dissatisfied customers that they have pulled the product from the shelves. He had 17 copies that had been returned just in the 3 days before Thanksgiving, so he asked me to take a look at the discs just to see if the complaints were something unique.

I loaded PTW from one of the discs (even though I publically said that I recommended against buying it.) and just verified the non-functional status of most of the MP modes.

The unforeseen side effect was that loading the software seemed to have corrupted the compression algorithms in my standard Civ stuff because the save files took a 100x to 1000x jump in size. The turn transitions jumped from just a few seconds under normal conditions to almost 45 seconds after PTW was installed.

Like an idiot, I just assumed it was a designed in flaw with PTW like usual, so I played on. When I stopped to check what was causing the crap I found that the size of the autosave files had jumped to 134MB each!! Ouch!! Luckily I have two 80GB drives and a truckload of RAM.

Well, I've stripped the software and reinstalled, so everything is fixed, but I am left with a string of save files for this game that load like mud. The files compress down nicely in .zip files but in the unzipped state they load slower than anything I have ever seen. (you load slow also if you were as big as the video of wizrd of OZ.) :cry: :cry:

[rant on]What a bag-o-crap.[/rant off] :mad:

Back on topic:

I'll have the save files that have been uploaded so far analysed and summarized as soon as possible.

WT? My PTW save files are < 200K.

I wonder if the 1.04 and 1.14 patches are more critcal then I realized?

Hmm... as someone who didn't even get contact with AI civs that early, I, too, will be interested to see how 'early war' plays out. I have my next 30 turns, as well as the report, ready when cracker gives the ok to start the next round. I've tried building warrior + settler pairs as opposed to spear + settler pairs in the beginning of this game as compared to the handyandy game, and my expansion rate has benefited... although I'll still probably be behind the pack. As I've just started playing on Monarch with some success, I regard this as a learning experience, especially with this game's tech pace going so much faster than at Monarch level.

Cracker,

I think one of the patches fixed some problems with MP mode. You might check on that. I haven't tried anything but PBEM yet so can't say. I am too busy enjoying the rest of it.

Funny thing about PTW, one of the UUs that the boards said was going to be bad was the bezerker. Turns out it is almost too powerful for the AI to defend against.

....and now back to your regularly scheduled programming......

...especially with this game's tech pace going so much faster than at Monarch level.

Let me put this in perspective - I have played the game through to about 10AD. My tech level in the game is ahead of LK36 - DEITY - I had the middle ages earlier in this game at "monarchy".

I think the increased tech pace has a lot to due with the modified map, and the number of AI civs. This really makes a big difference in how fast the tech goes. I can't compare with deity, my true deity experience is nil but I can compare it to Epic 11 that had a large land mass, and 15 AI civs. Tech was screaming on that game too. It was a culuture game, which was difficult for me to win, my culture topped 179000 but I was never double the nearest civ. Off topic I know but it was a monarch game with very fast tech, very much like this.

I am interested in seeing exactly how the games match up. It is very early and it will be interesting to see how early dissions can effect the next rounds. ie to war or not to war, granary no granary, archers no archers, tech choices etc.

Hotrod

P.S. I have played to turn 50 but am reluctant to go past 60, may have to grab cracker's game at that point to see how I would handle getting an early settler and an early war. ;)

Originally posted by LKendter
...especially with this game's tech pace going so much faster than at Monarch level.

Let me put this in perspective - I have played the game through to about 10AD. My tech level in the game is ahead of LK36 - DEITY - I had the middle ages earlier in this game at "monarchy".

Sounds like a good Deity tech trainer, looks like space ship might be the quickest was to win on the map afterall.

Everyone is doing Great!!!

Please help me catch up here by not posting future savefiles until we get a bit more discussion. You can play ahead and plan on posting the files on late Wednesday but let us try to have a bit more discussion first.

Discussion Guidance: Try to focus on what we have done so far and not to much on the grand future plans, because that twists what other people might do. Remember the multiple approaches to the game do provide some "cross contamination" so it is up to you to try to play like that extra info is not 100% known to you. Both of these factors emphasize a point that Charis has made about trying to set a good game plan and then follow it responsively and compare the results to other players.

Here is the data table for 2590bc to help stimulate discussion:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1_2590bc_table.gif

Notes:
1) I have added a second column for my game to factor out the extra settler effects at least in the short term game
2) There is some highlighting in the table and I apologize for not having a graphic key yet.
3) pink highlighted techs with an "h" came from goody huts.
4) blue highlighted techs with an "T" came from trading.
5) green highlighted techs with an "r" came from direct research.
6) the square boxes indicate what the player is working on in the save file. A square aroung a tech that is fill in indicates what the player was researching at the beginning of the 10 turn round.

I'll have more comments, data, and observations later this evening but hopefully this table will stimulate some focused discussion. ;) Enjoy. :goodjob:

Just a quick comment: It is definitely the contacts that make the most impact on the early round scoring. Those with 4 early contacts have a large advantage over the pack with all the techs that are available. Steve and SJF each have 4 contacts and they are essentially double every one else.

This game show why effective tech trading can make or break the game. I wonder if an always war game with no trading would even be possible. Too bad no one has taken that approach.

Hotrod

I realize that next round may bring the them back to the pack but with a 3 or 4 tech lead it may not be possible to catch them.

I realize that next round may bring the them back to the pack but with a 3 or 4 tech lead it may not be possible to catch them.


Everyone will get those contacts at some point, and can start trading. I had a big trade point when I got up to 4 civs then gave me a huge block of tech also.

However, they did get an edge. The question is how powerful of one, and can they keep it going?

2590 BC Analysis

Lee - General exporation, doing well with huts
Hotrod - W-W-W-S ? Avoiding early granary due to good food
Shanghai 3000BC, City3 2550BC
Jaxom - W-W-W-G-W (still no settler)
Borealis - W-W-W-G-S-Sp
Stwils - W-W-W-S-W-Sp-G Shanghai 2900BC
Cracker - W-W-Wk-G-W-S Clears 2 forests, gets settler from
hut, kills English settler-pair
SJFrank - W-W-W-S-G
Charis - B-A-S-A Shanghai 2900BC. No contacts yet
SteveAriz - W-W-G-S-S irrigates around Beijing- Shanghai 2590BC
Swift - W-W-S Moves a square OFF river to found, Shanghai 3050BC, war with English
Theos - W-W-W-S-S Shanghai 2750BC
Meldor - W-W-Wk-W-S-W shanhai 2590BC founded WAY up
North on choke, War with English.

Ranking on 'Total points' (12 players)
- Steve and SJFrank quite a bit ahead - that's all from tech
- Cracker and Swift, then Hotrod and Lee not far behind -
based on people for Cracker, balanced doing well on all for others
- Theos, Jaxom, Charis, Stwils, Borea and Meldor
Of these tech was reason for Meldor and Theos, people for Charis and
Jaxom (choosing a VERY later settler), low improvements for Borea,
and a balanced game for stwils.

Our warmongers, Cracker, Swift, Meldor, are ahead (by two workers) in people,
and it will interesting to see how they compare to more peaceful folks.
The way they report this is SO matter-of-fact it's clear this
is standard operating procedure for them :P
Charis' build order shows a warmonger leaning, but he hasn't made any contacts yet :P
It'll be interesting to see if his rax-powered archers can do anything.

For settling, the two moves that stand out are Jaxom with the slowest settler
but good exploration, and Meldor founding Shanghai WAY out farther than
anyone else, choosing a chokepoint spot. Will it stop others? Will it cause
a war? Will he get a road connected to it before Synthetic Fibers?!?

Cracker and Meldor know well the advantage of workers (in addition to the
frequent benefit of whacking nearby settlers) and make a worker as
their third unit. I think cracker and I were the only ones to mention
chopping forests already.

Swift is the only one not to found on the starting spot, wanting to get the
wheat and cattle in play immediately. Given the cultural expansion in 10 turns
which will bring both in, moving *off* a river to found capital is something
I would be quite surprised doesn't hurt later. He's also the only one to
start research with Alphabet, as if to highlight going by a different
drummer :P (A good thing to have in such comparison games!)

Indeed a good start by all :goodjob:
Next report at turn 60 should be quite interesting!!

And to cracker, *THANKS* for all your hard work composing this!
(BTW, PtW has been nothing but zippy fast with small save files for me, original version, 1.04 and 1.14)

Charis

Charis: IRC I am building settler number 3, with 3 turns to growth and 3 turns to complete settler.

Is still no granary :smoke:, don't know yet. We'll see how I compare in the next round, after virtually everyone else completes their granary.

The only other different approach I took was my tech choices, I realized based on Cracker's writeup of the map that tech trading will be key, couple that with 2 food bonuses, I chose to bypass my usual granary and go for the wheel first, more expensive yes but a free tech for only Japan, a civ that is not in the game. I was hopeful that it had a high tech trade value. Same thing goes for HBR.

By chosing these tech I think I was able to trade more effectively. This allowed me to avoid trading contacts this early in the game.

Hotrod

Huh, I didn't CHOOSE a very late settler. I built 4 warriors but have only 2 left, the other 2 were killed by barbarians. Other than that, good analysis :)

Meldor founding Shanghai WAY out farther than
anyone else, choosing a chokepoint spot. Will it stop others? Will it cause
a war? Will he get a road connected to it before Synthetic Fibers?!?


If you are worried about the "Road to Shanghai" it is already completed, the settler used it to get most of the way there. It was completed using one full worker going towards the spot and the two slaves going towards the capital.

The idea being to hook up the wines as soon as the misunderstanding with the English is cleared up. I am sure they will see the light here shortly.

The mystery I would like to know - how did 2 people get 4 contacts already. Looking at my logs I get the 4 contacts several turns later.

I will be interesting to see if the super early contact for Steve and SJF let them hold the lead.

Great summary Charis.

I want to highlight the fact that Swiftsure was the only play to move the initial settler. Everyone else founded right at the start position.

Swift's move to get the cow and wheat under the hood starting in turn two can be looked at as an early advantage that comes at a later cost of having to build a 100 shield aqueduct but that may not be a big deal in light of the low corruption of the capital and limited access to luxuries close at hand.

Shifts move away from the start position cost about 10 power point in turn 1 in terms of lost food/shields/gold. Then being located to get the cow right away boosted food production right away to 3 extra food per turn. The power difference between the unimproved cow (3/1/0) and the unimproved bonus grassland square next to the river (2/1/1) is zero overall but the mix is different.

You had to look close to see that the plains square that Swift moved to was not technically adjacent to the river and this meant it would not get the free ride to pop 12 and also would not pass watter through to let you irrigate the cow and beyond. (very interesting approach here Swift).

I would not have seen this move as an option based on the opening view of the map because you could not see the cow or the wheat in the first view. Moving the worker onto the mountain to get a look around definately revealed this option.

------------------------

As soon a Beijing was founded in the original start position this would have revealed the cow and the wheat.

The other opening plays fall into a couple of major groups:

Irrigate and road straight to the Cow - theos and stwils
Road/mine all Bonus Grasslands first - Jaxom, Steve, Borea
Rd/mine G+ sw of Beijing then go to Cow - cracker, charis, meldor, LKendter, Lee, Hotrod (SJF is sort of in this group but only roaded the G+ square.)

This last group can be further divided into the three players who chose to mine the cow (cracker, charis, and meldor) versus the three players that irrigated the cow (Lee, Hotrod, and SJF).

Noting again here that swift's opening settler move put his game in different thought process category because it basically burned the settler's first turn and the worker's first 4 moves to go for the safesex hut pop.

I'll add some graphs of some of these data elemenst after we get to turn 60 so there will be more trends to talk about (no this is not an invitation to start postion more turns report yet.)

-----------------------------

I want to emphasize for the record that "I am not a warmonger". Libby's conscript warrior and settler just fell against my ax and died. ;) Now charis the bow whore is a warmonger (barracks+archers = yeah you look friendly). Charis's game here is exactly an example of what this game format is about for the higher level players. Choose a strategy and play it to the best of your abilities and then see how it stacks up against other players under similar circumstances. We could spend weeks just analyzing and discussing what we are about to see in just the next 2 to 3 rounds of play.

Lee gets the "hut monger" prize for the opening round with a total of 121 points out of huts and Steve was a close second at 94.

Meldor and Hotrod are tied at zero for the "Huts Schmuts" or the "We don' need no stinkin' Jabba freakin the Huts" award.

Technically stwils gets the "Oh, huts can kill me award" even though she started over with a sprinkle of holy water.

Jaxom, may be getting the worst end of the barbs pointy stick, up to this point, because those evil conscript barbs are killing and eating his regular warriors.

I think we all need to remember that this game has alot of RNG related events (some crappy; some fun) built into it. This is one reason we have to compare things from a technical discussion standpoint and not just "my truck tires are bigger than your truck tires."

I love it - Hotrod is one of the other two players to go for irrigated cow. I guess he learned to appreciate a hyper-growth settler factory after playing in LK34 sg. The question now comes into play - how fast do Hotrod, SJF and myself get more settlers in the next 30 turns.

@Hotrod - I had the same tech research thoughts - heads to note that other civs would not have the wheel

@Jaxom
Oops, I skimmed through the reports a little too quick. I missed your 2750 line on the settler, and saw '1 city' in the table

@Meldor - good luck clearing up the 'misunderstanding' - surely the wines will be a great aid to this!

@cracker
> You had to look close to see that the plains square that Swift
> moved to was not technically adjacent to the river and this
> meant it would not get the free ride to pop 12...

Actually there's a very easy method that most know but some might not. Right-click on the square and get 'terrain' info. If you see +1 extra gold on the square, it's on the river. In general that's far more accurate than trying to see if the river actually
hits the square, because sometimes the graphics lie, while the +1 gold never does!

Agreed though, moving the worker up on the mountain for a view is an interesting choice that sometimes nets a great spot. (For example if it saw wheat and cow just OUTSIDE the 21tile limit of the founding spot)

> I want to emphasize for the record that "I am not a
> warmonger".

That's what they all say!! :lol: And my rax is just for defense!! :mischief:

j/k !

@lee - in most other games I would have irrigated the cow too. But it's not *settlers* I plan to crank from Beijing :rolleyes:

I'm off to finish off my next set of turns now. Hopefully I'll make a bogey, er., "contact"

Charis

Lee I am learning, we managed a win in LK30 even with some :smoke: moves.

The key I think will be if the "earlier" settlers vs. the granary. It came up in the Handy game and I want to see it play out. It should be interesting to note just how many cities behind or ahead as the case maybe. It is interesting to note that only I and the :hammer: Charis & meldor haven't even started granaries.

As far as the contacts go I think it helps that England, Zulu and America all have scouts. I think we will be hard pressed to find any un popped huts.

Hotrod

One question for cracker though is why Jaxom has Orange in the Contacts/embassy area?

Hotrod

Here's a sample graph of the power progressions up to 2590bc to give you all a feel for relative positions in the pack.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_power_2590.jpg

The scale is deliberately having Steve and SJF off the charts at this point so there will at least be some seperation between all the other lines.

A great deal can change in a game like this because the AIs are not dead yet and there Barbs and the evil RNG God can still bite anyone right in the shorts.

Hotrod,

The orange contact boxes for Jaxom might be a better question for Jaxom to answer. I thought he should have contact with two civs based on his fog rollback but his histograph display and diplomatic contacts showed no contacts.

(just to save us forty three posts about the swift-rightclick option in the foreign advisor screen, Yes, I know you need to shift-right click on the vacant orange bubbles to bring up any missing leader heads.)

The Green contact boxes for Steve and SJF are just to highlight the brilliant (and lucky) move to trade contacts with other civs to a civ that has Writing so then you can use your Writing to trade more contacts and techs with the other civs you know. This "bootstrapping" can also be used to trade maps even when you don't have the ability to make maps on your own.

I explored the SW choke before the English town showed up, I still need to find a warrior sturdy enough to survive a barbarian attack and send him there to make contact with Liz. I have seen the Zulu border 2 turns ago but Shaka is doing nothing to help me meet him. All in all, a very bad start for me but the game is still young.

So when are the next 30 to start?

Looking at the results so far I would say I got lucky here - not all of my lead was due to skill :p

I think a number of you will catch up in the next couple of rounds as my city management breaks down a little once I have more than four or five cities. I've played out to about turn 100 now, and some of my moves (you'll see in the summary) can definitely be classed as :smoke: / :nono: / :eek: / [pimp] ... :lol:

I think we have had a very good opening discussion and hopefully we will have even more give-and-take after we see the next round.

Please go ahead and upload the additional turns reports and save files for:

2190bc (turn 40)
1790bc (turn 50)
1525bc (turn 60)


(semi spoiling moderating guru's tip to all the less experienced players - plan ahead for how you will deal with barbarians at the time the second civ on the map enters into the medieval ages or you may have a sad day. For most players this event will occur somewhere in the turn 70 to turn 90 range) ;)

and good luck to all players.

Cracker, what is our time frame for getting the next 3 sets of turns done?

stwils

2510 BC (I) - :mad: A barb hits, and kills pop in Beijing - I would rather have lost $16 in cash. This is brutal in a QSC.
2310 BC - Trading time has arrived.
Writing to America for contact India, $3.
Writing to India for Mysticism, $7.
I only do this deal, due to the space race: Writing to Zulu and England for $10 each.
It actually pays to keep the AI going as fast as possible.
2270 BC - I saw no restrictions, so I buy a English worker for $26.
I love having a tech laggard, $22 and Masonry buys Iron Working from India.
2190 BC - Fate is weird some times - I frag a barb camp, and buy a worker from India for $25 the same turn.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1-LKENDTER-2190BC.zip
(I) The first palace expansion occurs.
2110 BC - This is one of those tedious MM games, and constantly having to fix the tiles used by Beijing and tweaking the luxury rate to maximum income after every settler built.
2070 BC - Canton is formed on the gold hill, iron is secured, and a nice help to my income.
1990 BC (I) - We don’t even rate on the most advanced civs list - this feels more like emperor, not monarchy. What is scary is civs I haven’t contacted are top of the list.
1870 BC - Nanking is formed as flood plains city that claims luxury #1 - spices.
I buy an English worker for $1/turn and $8 - I have that little cash to spare.
1830 BC - We lose an exploring warrior trying to kill a barb camp :(
Normally I would have bypassed, but with cash so weak I had to try.
(I) Literature is researched, beginning on philosophy.
1790 BC - It is trading time.
I sell literature to India for Horseback, Math, tm, and $11 - I love selling at 2nd civ prices.
I sell literature, wm to Zulu for Map Making, tm, and $16 (all cash).
I sell tm to India for $6 (all cash)
I sell literature to England for tm, $36 (all cash).
I sell literature to America for tm, $38.
I sell wm to America for $15 (all cash).
Every civ is broke except me with $120.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1-LKENDTER-1790BC.zip
1700 BC - Tsingato is formed.
Patience is a virtue - India suddenly has $25 (barb camp slaughter), so I sell wm to him for wm and $25.
1650 BC - We beat India by 1 turn to fragging a barb camp for $25.
How you can tell a space race game - Philosophy under priced to India for wm, $19. I want the AI to keep up as long as possible researching paths I am not.
I sell philosophy to Zulu and America to finally get their wm.
1625 BC - Xinjian is formed - another gold mine city with fresh water.
1575 BC - I am just not lucky with barb camps this game - another warrior dies trying to take one out.
1550 BC - The first luxury is on the road net. Chengdu is formed.
1525 BC - Scratch a barb camp - plus $25.
I finally decide to establish embassies - I see the typical AI stupidity, Washington is size 1, growth in 4, and settler completes in 4.
The state of the empire after 60 turns - 7 cities, 2 settlers I/P, 3 workers +1 I/P, 3 slaves, 9 warriors.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1-LKENDTER-1525BC.zip

A bit of a warning to lead off this turns report: The save files I have attached are zipped to fairly normal size but they are some of the files effected by the compression software crapola that I experienced around Thanksgiving when you unzip them they will be 10 to 15 times normal size and will load like mud. If you use one of these save files to test play forward or continue the game, your autsave files may jump to 120 to 140MB (yes, megabytes) in size.

I have hex editted the save files down to cut out 50% of the scum that was introduced by the compression bug but still it leaves them huge for anyone who does not have a fast computer.

I can keep the game going but it is only through the grace of a very fast CPU and two huge hard drives.

So just be carefully out there. ;)

------------------

Turns 31-40 through 2190 BC
2550 BC (turn 31) – Warrior3 has joined the choke point blockade.

2510 BC (turn 32) – Discovered Writing . Warrior4 out of Beijing defeats English warrior and promotes to veteran. Trade Shaka Writing and contact with the English for 38 gold, CB, Wheel, and contact with Abe. Trade Abe contact with Libby and Writing for contact with Gandhi plus BW and 1 gold. (note: Writing was almost worthless to Abe on its own so he must be close to researching it on his own.) Gandhi has nothing, zip, nada to trade. Raise luxuries to 10% to keep Beijing happy.

2470 BC (turn 33) – Found Canton on the south choke hill to block traffic and to get wine. Elite Warrior2 (5/5) kills an English warrior on the Blockade. Blockade Warrior3 kills an English warrior and promotes to veteran. Libby’s army is dead and slaves move to hook up wine. Warrior4 heals in Beijing, luxuries back to 0%. See our first barb warrior north by the Zulus.

2430 BC (turn 34) – Micromanage food in Beijing. Made peace with Libby and got Horseback Riding, Iron, Math, Mysticism and 13 gold. Libby no longer has a tech lead.

2390 BC (turn 35) – Luxuries up to 10% to keep Beijing happy. Micromanage assignments in Canton and Shanghai. (wine connect by road.
2350 BC (turn 36) – Settler out of Beijing heads to central hill by horse. Barracks in Shanghai.
2310 BC (turn 37) – Found Nanking to link up horses. Warrior3 (4/4) moves to garrison Shanghai.
2270 BC (turn 38) – Hooked up horses. Warrior2 (4/4) patrols south of Shanghai for barbs. Warrior4 moves northwest.
2230 BC (turn 39) – North Warrior1 is parked on a hill next to barbs.
2190 BC (turn 40) – Barbs emerge from the east of Beijing by the hut. (looks alot like Lee's problem but we are almost prepared.) Warrior4 follows mountains northwest. Micromanage food/shields in Beijing.

Turns 41-50 through 1790 BC
2150 BC (turn 41) – Micromanage research to conserve cash. Micromanage food in Beijing. Horseman out of Beijing to deal with barbs. Luxuries to 10% to keep Beijing happy. More barbs come from west mountains near Libby.

2110 BC (turn 42) – Discovered Literature . Warrior4 meets the pesky English scout near iron mountain. Trade Masonry to Gandhi for a slave. Elite Warrior kills western barb warrior to defend wine. Horseman kills eastern barb warrior.
2070 BC (turn 43) –Barracks in Canton.
2030 BC (turn 44) – Horseman out of Shanghai heads northeast toward hut. Horseman (3/3) garrisons Beijing. Machiavelli says we are the “happiest nation in the world.” I didn't think Machiavelli was an expert on happiness.
1990 BC (turn 45) – Settler out of Beijing pops the hut and gets 25 gold. Horsemen move east to explore and get rid of barbs. Luxuries to 0%.
1950 BC (turn 46) – Horseman disperses Ainu camp for 25 gold. Set embassy with Abe for 56 gold to change his outlook. Recovered 9 gold by selling him a ROP he cannot use.
1910 BC (turn 47) – Barracks in Nanking and our cave gets grass. Trade Libby world map and Literature for Philosophy and Map Making . Trade Abe Philosophy and our world map for his world map. Found Tsingtao on east gold hill. Luxuries to 10% to hold Beijing happy.
1830 BC (turn 49) – Settler out of Beijing heads to west gold hill. Micromanage food/gold in Beijing. (conscript barb warrior to the north kills our (3/3) warrior fortified on a hill).
1790 BC (turn 50) – Settler out of Shanghai heads to hook up furs. Horseman out of Canton patrols west.

Turns 51-60 through 1525 BC
1750 BC (turn 51) – Worker out of Beijing moves to connect Tsingtao. Horsemen are fanning out to subdue/control the territory and seek promotions.
1725 BC (turn 52) – Founded Chengdu to get furs for everyone.
1675 BC (turn 54) – Killed a camp for 25 gold.
1650 BC (turn 55) – Horseman out of Nanking. Trade Shaka Maps and Literature for Polytheism . plus 37 gold.
1625 BC (turn 56) – Killed a barb camp by the Zulus for 25 gold. Micromanage food/shields in Beijing.
1600 BC (turn 57) – Killed barbs on the south coast for 25 gold.
1575 BC (turn 58) – Killed barbs over by India for 25 gold. Forestry near Beijing contributes 20 shields to Library.
1550 BC (turn 59) – Horsemen out of Canton and Shanghai. Galley out of Tsingtao heads east. "Holy batcrap", there are 5 barb galleys all over the place, looks like Salamis to me.

1525 BC (turn 60) – A barb horseman jumps out of the woods and eats one of our workers. Library in Beijing. Our galley survives a barb galley attack and makes contact with the Greeks. Trade Alex Math and Polytheism for contact with the Babs and Russia plus 1 gold (all he had) and his territory map. Trade Hambone Polytheism for contact with Persia and Germany plus 1 coin (all he had.) Trade Cathy Polytheism for contact with the Iroqs plus 50 gold (all she had). Trade Hiawatha Polytheism for 54 gold (all he had) and his territory map (4 towns). Trade Otto Polytheism and Math for his world map and 3 gold (all he had). Trade Xerxes Polytheism for his world map and 1 gold. (basically a gift)

Save files (remember the size warning!! or be sad :cry: )

cracker's bc2190 zipped save file (turn 40) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_cracker_bc2190.zip)
cracker's bc1790 zipped save file (turn 50) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_cracker_bc1790.zip)
cracker's bc1525 zipped save file (turn 60) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_cracker_bc1525.zip)

Sorry to be trouble, but I don't know how to send a zipped file. Much less uploading one.

I have WinZip. I can unzip fine. But how do I zip a file? Where do I go to zip it? If I go to my saved games, I don't want those files to be zipped (unless of course the original would still stay in there.)

And I have had no luck uploading any file.

Can I still send each 10 turns as attachments?

I will try to do what is right if I can figure out how to do it.

stwils :(

Q1 Hotrod

2590 (30):

2550 (31): Found Canton.

2510:

2470: pop hut and get alphabet, first good hut.:).

2430:

2390: Learn IW, start math.

2350: Contact with Americans, no trades

2310:

2270:

2230: contact with India - Trade the infamous HBR for Mysticism :).

2190 (40): Settler movement toward city 4.


2150 (41): Found Nanking

2110 (42): Shanghi riots, need 20% lux.

2070 (43): The barbs are out.

2030 (44):

1990 (45):

1950 (46): Learn math start currency. Found Tsingtao. Math -> zulus for writing, Math + WM to lizzy for philo and TM.

1910 (47):

1870 (48):

1830 (49):

1790 (50): Found Xingian.




1750 (51): Nanking completes warrior JIT, barbs approach from south start worker.

1725 (52): Nanking warrior survives and promotes.

1700 (53): Spot american boarder to the North.

1675 (54): Shanghi builds settler starts another. Settler heading to Horses in the North.

1650 (55):

1625 (56): Tsingtao builds barracks starts spear. Nanking builds worker starts another. Abe has maps but not Philo. trade WM. Traded Zulus, philo and WM for Maps and Territory map. Sell Lizzy maps for 3 gold and TM, she has CoL. Change Tsingtao to galley.

1600 (57): Beijing builds settler starts another.

1575 (58): Found Chengdu to the North by the Horses, starts warrior. Currency next turn +7 gold.

1550 (59): Settler in place for new city on the gold. Currency complete start on Lit, due in 7 at 90%. Trade Lizzy, Currency for CoL, WM and her 37 gold. Embassy with England for 33 gold, she is no Polite.

1525 BC (60): With the new maps decide to move the settler south toward the furs.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_HOTROD_BC2190.zip
http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_HOTROD_BC1790.zip
http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_HOTROD_BC1525.zip

Hotrod

Turns 31 to 40.


[list=1]
2550BC The first settler is finally ready, he goes SW to compete with Elizabeth. A warrior is ordered.

2510BC Meet a polite Zulu. No deals now.

2470BC ...

2430BC The year of contacts.
Meet a cautious English, a polite Indian and a cautious American.
We discover Writing on that same year.
Trade Masonry to Gandhi for Mysticism and 3 golds.
Trade Writing to Abraham for the Wheel and 20 golds.
Trade the Wheel and Writing to Gandhi for Iron Working and 22 golds.
Research set to philosophy at best pace.

2390BC Shanghai is founded on the hill overlooking York and orders a temple.

2350BC A friendly warrior joins us.

2310BC Another settler is ready, a new pair is ordered.

2270BC ...
2230BC ...

2190BC I could buy a worker from India but since I have no embassy with them and don't want to cripple them, I let it slide.
[/LIST=1]


Turns 41 to 50.

[LIST=1]
2150BC Canton is founded directly south of Beijing and start a worker.

2110BC ...
2070BC ...

2030BC We discover Philosophy, Code of Laws is ordered. I need more workers, temple of Shanghai vetoed in favor of a worker.

1990BC Nanking founded W of Beijing claiming one iron. A warrior/worker pair is ordered.

1950BC Elizabeth knows of map making, all my contacts know of math and horseback. I hold on philosophy a bit longer.

1910BC ...

1870BC A settler leaves Beijing to claim the North spices. A barbarian almost kill the last fortified warrior in Beijing, are you sure this is monarch level barbarian?

1830BC ...

1790BC Worker completes in Canton, start on pyramids. Map Making was traded around, time to do some trading of my own.
Elizabeth asks the most for her WM so Philosophy and WM for WM and all her golds.
Philosophy and WM to Gandhi for Map Making and WM.
Philosophy and WM to Lincoln for Mathematics, WM and all his golds.
Philosophy and WM to Shaka for Horseback Riding, WM and all his golds.
[/LIST=1]

Turns 51 to 60.

[LIST=1]
1750BC Tsingtao is founded directly north of Beijing and starts a warrior/worker.

1725BC ...
1700BC ...
1675BC ...

1650BC We discover Code of Laws, research started on the Republic at best pace.

1625BC ...

1600BC Xinjian is founded on the coast E of Beijing and starts a worker.

1575BC ...
1550BC ...

1525BC Another settler pair is ready and sent south to claim the furs.
[/list=1]


Here are the save games:
2190 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_jaxom_BC2190.sav)
1790 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_jaxom_BC1790.sav)
1525 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_jaxom_BC1525.sav)

2590 BC Swap Beijing production to warrior.

2510 BC Watch the Zulus found Ulundi and gain contact with them. Beijing builds warrior; settler production started.

2470 BC Shanghai founded.

2390 BC Writing discovered; research started on Literature. I trade Writing to Shaka for contact with the Indians, Burial, Iron Working and 15 gold as I am obviously far, far behind in tech. I've never seen the AI get tech this fast on Monarch before. Gandhi gives me The Wheel, contact with the Americans, and 8 gold for Writing and Masonry- given that Shaka or Lincoln are both expansionist and will sell tech to him at rock-bottom prices anyway, I might as well trade tech while I can still get something for it. Lincoln trades me Mysticism + 4 gold for Writing. Elizabeth has Philosophy, Horseback Riding, and lacks contact with the Americans or the Zulu... but she evidently knows India, who knows them both. To prevent Gandhi from selling contact with them to her now that he has Writing, I buy Philosophy for 27 gold + contact with Shaka and Lincoln. THREE sources of Iron, as well as two horses, are revealed near Beijing, if I can grab them before Liz does.

2310 BC Beijing builds settler; starts warrior.

2270 BC Shanghai builds warrior; starts another.

2230 BC Beijing builds warrior; starts settler.

2190 BC Diplomacy with Shaka reveals that he has both Polytheism and Horseback Riding, along with plenty of gold. I trade Philosophy to him for Horseback Riding before Liz can trade him Poly for Phil. Gandhi has a worker in his capital, and gives me it + 2 gold for Mysticism, a good deal considering all the other civs have it. Lincoln has nothing to trade, but lacks Philosophy and Horseback Riding. Worker starts improving around Shanghai, which is connected to the road net, and the Indian worker starts a road to what will be a new city on the next turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/QSC-c1-Borealis_bc2190.sav

2150 BC Canton founded on the coast, where it will claim horses upon expanding, and starts warrior.

2110 BC Shanghai builds warrior; starts settler and is microed to prioritize growth (the AI had it working a forest square).

2070 BC Beijing builds settler; starts warrior.

2030 BC Beijing builds warrior; starts settler.

1950 BC Canton builds warrior; starts settler.

1910 BC Nanking founded; starts worker.

1870 BC The warrior exploring near Zululand is ambushed by a barbarian attacker, getting promoted to vet status. Beijing microed to build the settler in 2 turns when it grows rather than in the next turn.

1830 BC We discover Literature and start research on Code of Laws. I choose to get it in 11 turns rather than 9 and get a 2gpt profit for trade and embassy-building purposes.

1790 BC Beijing builds settler; starts warrior.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/QSC-c1-Borealis_bc1790.sav

1750 BC Shanghai builds settler; starts warrior. Production in Beijing switched to temple.

1725 BC A warrior clears out a barbarian camp for 25 gold. Embassy build with the Zulus.

1700 BC The palace gets an add-on. Tsingtao founded, starts warrior. Lux and tax sliders adjusted to prevent revolt in Beijing.

1675 BC Our warrior disperses a Vandal encampment before Liz's warrior can get there for 25 gold. Embassy built in London reveals the Oracle 40 turns away. No one else is currently building wonders. Liz has Code of Laws, but Shaka doesn't yet.

1625 BC Beijing grows, requiring adjustment of the lux slider.

1600 BC Nanking builds worker; starts another.

1575 BC Beijing builds temple, starts spear. More slider adjustment. Tsingtao builds warrior; starts settler. Worker starts improving land around Nanking.

1550 BC Code of Laws discovered; as research on the Republic would take around 32 turns at max possible research without running a deficit, I opt to get it at 40 turns with min research at 14 gpt. Since everyone except me has Map Making, I trade Code of Laws + 4 gold + 1gpt for it from Gandhi now that the price has dropped. Xinjian founded to prevent immediate Zulu settlement of our lands, as well as Gems once it expands; starts worker.

1525 BC Beijing expands to size 6 and gets an entertainer for a turn, until the spear is built to do MP duty in one turn.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/QSC-c1-Borealis_bc1525.sav

My next set of 30 turns, for your delight and amusement :p

(31) 2550BC
Worker connects Shanghai to Beijing and moves to the bonus grassland SW of Shanghai.
Settler completed at Beijing, another ordered up.

(32) 2510BC
Worker mines bonus grassland.
Settler is sent NW to settle next to iron in the mountains.
Luxuries back to 0%.

(33) 2470BC
(34) 2430BC
Shanghai builds a warrior, starts another.

(35) 2390BC
I send the new warrior to Beijing, as it will drop 10% off the luxury tax there.
Worker completes mine at Shanghai, starts road.
Beijing goes into disorder - missed the population change.

(36) 2350BC
Warrior reaches Beijing and fortifies. No change required to luxury slider.
Settler and warrior reach site of new Iron city.
Order restored in Beijing.
Barbarian warrior appears to the NE of Beijing.

(37) 2310BC
Worker completes road and moves into position to irrigate wheat.
Canton founded by Iron mountain. Warrior fortifies. There's flood plains in it's radius, so I decide to pop a worker there.
The English have acquired mathematics. There's nothing else to trade fot it though.

(38) 2270BC
Beijing pops out a settler and starts another.

(39) 2230BC
Settler is sent East to plop a city by a small lake.
Barb warrior attacks Beijing and is sent back in a coffin. The people expand the palace.
Shanghai pops out another warrior.

(40) 2190BC
Warrior fortifies in Shanghai. Shanghai production is changed to barracks.
I buy a worker from India for 25 gold.
Worker irrigates wheat by Shanghai, starts road.
Switch Beijing off settler production to build a barracks. Barbarians are beginning to show in numbers, and more solid defence is called for.

Q1 - Arizona_Steve - 2190BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Arizona_Steve_2190BC.zip)

(41) 2150BC
Barbarians attack Canton and Beijing. No casualties for the Chinese.

(42) 2110BC
Nanking founded. Warrior ordered up.
Beijing is attacked again - our warrior promotes to Vetaran.
Barracks complete in Beijing. Spearman ordered.

(43) 2070Bc
Worker begins road to horses.
More trading - We get Mathematics and a territory map from England. They get our world map, 90 gold and 1 gold per turn.
Mathematics and World Map go to India. We get Map Making, their Territory Map and 20 gold.
I give up researching. Science to 0%.
Shanghai builds a warrior.

(44) 2030BC
Warrior is sent East to hunt down the barbarian camp.
Shanghai production changed to barracks.
Horsie road is completed. We can build horsemen.
Interesting - China is fourth in the list of most advanced nations.

(45) 1990BC
Our lone exploring warrior stumbles on a barbarian camp.
I see why we're fourth in the tech list - Zululand, England and India have acquired Philosophy.
Ghandi will trade Philosophy for 49 gold. I get it from him for 45.
Beijing goes into disorder again. Forgot about the population growth again.

(46) 1950BC
Luxuries to 10%.
Beat up one barbarian warrior. Another remains in the camp.
Beijing builds spearman, starts settler.
Nanking builds warrior, starts temple.
Canton trains a worker, starts another.
Oder restored in Beijing.

(47) 1910BC
Spearman fortifies in Beijing until a settler is trained - luxuries down to 0%.
Warrior fortifies in Nanking.
Barb-busting warrior spies a barbarian camp.
Canton worker is sent to irrigate flood plains.
Barb camp to the West of Canton is destroyed - 25 gold for us.
England, India and America have Code of Laws. America lacks Map-Making. Map-making goes to America, We get Code of Laws and the American territory map.
Our palace gets some steps in front of it.
England starts the Oracle.

(48) 1870BC
Our warrior gets killed trying to destroy a barbarian camp.
Shanghai builds barracks, starts spearman.

(49) 1830BC
I sell Shaka Code of Laws, Our world map and 60 gold in exchange for their world map. I cannot believe how anaemic our opponents are - Only England is equal to us in expansion - the others have three cities each. I guess I'm too used to Deity rates of expansion.

(50) 1790BC
Canton worker completes floodplains irrigation, begins road.
Luxuries to 10% as Beijing grows to 5.

Q1 - Arizona_Steve - 1790BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Arizona_Steve_1790BC.zip)

(51) 1750BC
Beijing builds settler, starts Spearman.
Luxuries to 0%.
Spearman at Beijing is unfortified and escorts the settler towards a second source of iron.

(52) 1725BC
Shanghai builds spearman, starts settler.

(53) 1700BC
Luxuries up to 10% as Beijing hits population 4 again.
Shanghai spearman fortified until settler is trained.
Beijing builds spearman, starts settler.

(54) 1675BC
Beijing spearman fortifies, waits for settler. You get the pattern?
Tsintao founded next to second iron source. Spearman fortifies. Archer ordered up for barbarian busting.
Buy an American worker for 27 gold.

(55) 1650BC
(56) 1625BC
Canton spits out a worker, starts another.

(57) 1600BC
America, India and England have Literature for sale. I buy from Lincoln for World Map and 60 gold. He remains cautious though.
Beijing spits out a settler.

(58) 1575BC
As before, wake up the spearman and use him to escort the Beijing settler.
The spearman inexplicably goes the wrong way. Fortunately there are no barbarians near the settler, so I don't bother to reload.
Shanghai trains a settler, and starts a spearman.

(59) 1550BC
That annoying barbarian camp to the East of Beijing is finally trashed.
Luxuries back down to 0% now the settlers are out.

(60) 1525BC
Two settlers are in position to found next turn.
Sell Literature to Shaka for his World Map, 10 gold and a Zulu worker.
Luxuries to 10% - Beijing grew to 4 again.

Q1 - Arizona_Steve - 1525BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Arizona_Steve_1525BC.zip)

Originally posted by stwils
Sorry to be trouble, but I don't know how to send a zipped file. Much less uploading one.

I have WinZip. I can unzip fine. But how do I zip a file? Where do I go to zip it?
.......
stwils :(

Open WinZip, Press the "New" button. Name the zip file (usually the same as the sav file). When it prompts you to add files to the archive, select the sav file. It will not delete the sav file. A copy of it will be added to the archive.

At the bottom of this page you will find an "upload" selection. This will bring up a dialog box with spaces for three files to upload. Click on one of the browse buttons and select the archive you created above. You can then hit the upload button below your choices. This dialog gives no indication that the files are being tranfered, but if you run your cursor up to the title bar, it should change to the busy cursor. Once the files are loaded, the upload dialog will change to a conformation dialog. Note the path for the uploads2 folder.

When you submit your report, at the place you want to reference the uploaded file, hit the "http://" button above the text box. Enter the visible text for the link and select OK. Then enter the path you noted above followed by a / and your zip file name.

You should be set.

The second reign of Charis, the Peaceful Barracks maker...
(In a followup post, learn more about the history of this monarch
and his plans for this game. The key point is that I'm using
vet archers as "opportunistic" scouts)

2550 BC - Goody hut, teaches us Alphabet. The English have Bronze
Working, Mysticism and Math. They have 10 gold and also just one
other city. Alas, they have all our techs too? Darn expansionist
scouts 8-\ At least that reduceds Bronze cost so I can
finish next turn. We then start Iron Working in 25 turns.

2510 BC - We see York, guarded by a CONSCRIPT warrior. My vet
archer is literally chomping at the bit to take him out.
They have bronze, so if I wait, they'll make spears. York
has two wines too. Yellow borders seen to the north. Less of
a pushover, the Zulus.

2430 BC - We autoraze York, sitting on wine, and near horses.

(Vet archer vs conscript warrior - "Opportunistic War #1")

2390 BC - Our SE archer, now more south, clears a Barb camp
and becomes elite. There he finds furs.

2350 BC - Canton is founded next to wheat and near horses.
We find ourselves next to Ulundi, Zulu's only town. We
declare war, and autoraze it. Mustn't treat Shaka any
different from Liz! (They both just had a lone warrior defender)
I imagine we're going to catch some heat for this :hammer:

(Elite archer vs reg warrior - "Opportunistic War #2")

2310 BC - An English warrior attacks us down to 1hp but loses.
Another warrior is not far from Beijing. In fact I have to switch
to warrior. Down south, the hut is EMPTY. Boo!

2270 BC - There is Zimbabwe, but with an Impi in it, and an
archer and warrior outside it. I fortify on the mountain.
The south exploring archer stops exploring and heads to
English area.

2230 BC - In a nerve racking battle, my vet warrior drops to 1hp
and kills the English warrior! :eek:

My North archer kills the warrior, and awaits retaliation.
My advisor says that at this point anyway I have a strong mil
compared to either Zulu or English. With just 4 mil units.

2190 BC - YES! My elite archer holds off against the regular
Zulu archer, although dropping to 1 hp first! Who said
barracks first and higher quality troops don't matter?!

England is ready to talk! (I have two vet spears near him)
She's ready to give... York, Mysticism, Writing, and ALMOST
Math (wow!!) Let me see if Shaka will talk.

Zulus also, after their last two-unit defeat, are ready to
talk, since they have NO other city! They'll offer Communications
with Americans and Indians, their worker, Mysticism, Writing,
and 24 gold! AND Iron Working (due for me next turn anyway)
Wowza! Uh, ok Shaka, that works. There's no benefit to me to
razing Zimbabwe anyway.

Back to Liz - she'll give Mathematics and 27 gold and ONE of
the following - Polytheism OR York. Hmmm... you know, I could
come raze York. Your warrior near my two archers will surely
die. We'll talk again in a round or two, Lizzy.
(York would be very far, corrupt, and hard to defend. I would
rather just raze it.)

With another chop, the Canton rax are due next turn.
We now see Iron not far from Shanghai, within range of the
planned incense city.

We say hi to India, who has NOTHING. Then Abe. Each has but ONE
other city?? Slow expansion guys! Is this typical for Monarch,
it's been a while? Abe is kinda behind on tech and cash too.

It will be interesting to compare this turn with other players,
have the gains in these opportunistic sorties caught us up?

Q1_Charis_BC2190.sav (Turn 40) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Charis_BC2190.sav)

2150 BC - The English warrior steps up and is summarily whacked.
Now what say she? Still doesn't want to yield York. OK...

1950 BC - We see the advantage of 'close' cities with this very
stark defense - our warrior at Beijing plays zone defense,
getting a barbarian approaching Canton just before it reaches
our worker. To the west, we see an Enlgish settler pair in
the open, and move into position.

Settler is due in Shanghai next turn... let him finish or
swap to granary? I'm starting to thing that I've alredy done
what I set out to do with ultra early military - hurt two
civs badly and leave myself room to grow. I think I could
probably peacefully expand to take my whole subcontinent.
Do I switch over to full settler production, or do I continue
to build up and army and take over rather than found cities?!

Short of a fourth city, I think I want that asap, so the
settler order stands. Even then, where to go? There are *SO*
many good spots to choose from! We may see some real differences
between games in this department! Iron to the N, E, and NW.
Wines to west, furs and cow to south, a good river spot E-NE,
furs NW, and 'Zulu' gems further north.

In a 'normal' game I would expand TOWARD my AI foes to take
away their space, then backfill my lands. Here I may take an
opposite approach of founding in my backyard in safety, and
capturing any city founded on my subcontinent :P

On that note, we'll send this settler to the Iron spot East
of Beijing and send his settler west to the wheat/lake spot,
and then let the new cities make more settlers and workers
while the 'core' ones with barracks crank mil. Canton may switch
off archer to spearman to fortify in the choke mountains north,
unless another archer is needed vs England in the west.

Our elite archer kills the english spear-settler pair, and our
vet kills the lone warrior. Liz will give two of three of
tech and city, but not all three. The beating shall continue
then.

1870 BC - We rest our archers to heal and the one up north ends
up stepping next to Bombay. Gandhi offers a worker for a piddling
20ish gold and we take it. (This isn't a RBCiv epic :P )

1830 BC - Gosh, it's tempting to take a whack at Bombay! Midturn
we saw a barb hit Bombay and face a warrior (that's why the worker
was in town). But now alas it's a spear. He really has nothing to
offer us though, in fact he's short two of our techs. We'll just
keep exploring, continuing NW.

1790 BC - Canton finishes his spearman who will head to the choke mtns
to the North, taking a small scouting detour to the NE along the way.

The settler at the east sees a nice coastal plain spot right next to
the iron to found next turn, and a worker moves in position to connect
a road to him. One captured worker to the east lays road over the wines,
in case we settle there, capture, or just need to move troops faster.
The other one heads to road to the new western city we'll found soon
near the wheat. (The ex-spot of York, near the wines, we'll consider,
but more likely, we'll capture when England resettles :)

Why is my archer asleep in Shanghai? Must have been MP before the settler
popped. He heads west to scout.

Gains in this ten turns seem modest at best, on paper, but I'm feeling
quite good about progress so far.

Q1_Charis_BC1790.sav (Turn 50) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Charis_BC1790.sav)

1750 BC - The English scout moves INTO position where my spearman can kill
him? Ok... We found Nanking on the coast next to iron and start...
Colossus? It will likely get changed later, but we have to do something
about our false reputation as a warmonger nation! Scratch that! Warrior first
for MP duty.

Our archers heal and it's time to link up and attack London or York. Unless
the scout kill makes Liz smart. She's smart??! She offers all her tech,
Math and Polytheism, AND York, for peace! AND 12 gold. Sweet! Liz, you have
another 20 years to live. If you would be so kind, would you mind re-settling
the wine spot for me??

Hey, York is in a decent spot, on a lake, right smack next to iron :)
It's in the direction we've been roading and our next planned city,
so that's nice. Maybe even a good FP site someday? (Or London) Oh, and the
sole citizen of York is mad at ME for being whipped? I'll send an archer there
for MP, let the other scout, and whip a temple of my own there.

1725 BC - Literature arrives and we start Monarchy. Map Making might be good but
we can buy/extort contacts, we can't extort being in Monarchy. It's quite
expensive so we'll go a York scientist for 40 turns.

Tsingtao is founded west of Canton on the wheat and lake, 3 steps away, and
3 steps from the wine spot.

Canton and Beijing switch to granary, with no immediate need for more muscle.
Along that line, we'll NOT hook up the iron yet, as we could use a LOT more
cheap warriors for MP duty.

1700 BC - America has map making and lacks four of our techs. Other civs are
behind. I'll trade for it, but since I'm not making a ship yet, no need to rush
and pay 2nd civ price.

1675 BC - Our exploring shows that our subcontinent is accessible
only through three chokepoints, 2,2, and 1 tiles, to W, NW, N. Figures - when
I don't mind lots of settlers coming over :P

1650 BC - Eep, Barbarian approaches Shanghai, and no defenders. Rax two turns from
finishing, but I can swap a tile to forest and finish a spearman next turn, just
in time. (Our worker's chopping JUST completed, leaving us 28 shields in the box!)

1625 BC - Nanking's warrior finishes, and we send him to South to scout (literally,
to Canton to replace a warrior who will go South to scout, getting one extra
turn of movement from the pair) We lend out Beijing's nice cow to Nanking to
SLOW it's growth so that the granary will finish first, avoiding the loss of a
half a box of food. Same for Canton. Note: Growth in 7 build in 7 loses the half-box
because the food and city growth is processed FIRST, then it checks shields and buildings.

1600 BC - Tsingtao starts to irrigate its wheat. Our spear looping north via east
finds a barb camp. The histogram shows a horrifically culture-free world. Also,
our score looks great, although Zulus did something right recently.
Our scout finds American border. It better have a spear defending is all I can
say :)

1575 BC - England has a worker who thinks job opportunities will be better
in China, so we pay to bring him over!

1550 BC - Boston has a spear defender. Lucky for him! And two American warriors
in the area. I'll let him be for now. Although I do climb a mountain next to
Boston for a better look at the area. In England we climb a hill and get our
first actual look at London.

1525 BC - England and Americans both tell me to get out of their territory.
I nock an arrow, and slowly back away... for now.

On my turn I stare at Boston. Elite archer. Regular spear. I repeat those phrases
several times. But I realize it's a worthless tundra village and his two warriors
would recapture, even if I won. We back down. For now anyway.

Nanking swaps at last minute from warrior to Barracks. The former was due next round
but would waste two shields. Just three more turns for a rax? I like that better.
The barb camp to east is dispersed.

That's the end of 'round 2'. Cracker - are these enough details? Too much? Or
do you prefer at this stage to know what every unit does?

I've NOT looked at other reports yet, so I have no idea how I stand compared
to peaceful expansions, or to settler whacks. But again, it's "feeling strong"
You guys will definitely like the "next 30 turns" set of descriptions.
Do the opportunistic Chinese settle down to normalcy? Does that northern
archer get frisky in America? What happens to Zulus and Liz? Stay tuned...

Q1_Charis_BC1525.sav (Turn 60) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Charis_BC1525.sav)

Charis

What a cliffhanger! I can't stand it, the suspense is killing me! :)

We have taken two completly different and irreconciliable paths. My approach is not obvious yet but it will become quite clear in the next 30 turns. Comparing the end results will be very interesting.

You are not a warmonger, you are a pacificator. I hope you didn't forget to give blue helmets to your...er, peace corps?

Explanation of Starting Strategy

The starting sequence for this game is so bizarre compared to
others, and in fact rather different from my own 'normal'
starts, as to warrant an explanation.

=== 1. "Strategic Choice - Early Oscillating War" ===

I don't know if this game will score as high as others, but
I specifically want to test out early war, likely oscillating,
to see how it fares in the power and score graphs, compared
to more peaceful openings. The choice of China for a civ is
particularly well suited to this - Let's look at China -

Chinese - Mil / Ind - Rider (4/3/3) - Warrior Code and Masonry
The UU is a VERY good one, with a well timed GA, high speed, and ZOC.
It requires both horses and iron meaning control of both is *KEY* to
the ancient era. One approach is to have a horseman (or even chariot)
rush to have many on-hand to upgrade.
Wonders? Great Wall is instant Golden Age for China.

Specifically, nothing gets built in the early age that doesn't
focus on military or buildup. Perhaps one temple, but unless food
is a major problem, skipping granaries and doing rax instead.
If we end up crippling AI that might switch to expansion of course.
The stated goal of the game, however, is fastest space launch,
which guides us to self-sufficient powerful research and Republic,
instead of the warmongerish conquest under Monarch. Also, our
build out will be tighter than I usually like, about 3 steps
away from one city to the next.

Keep in mind that OCN is *22*, so not even a Forbidden Palace
option until 11 cities! 10 civs (not Japan or Aztec) That also means
that a denser packing will make corruption even lower.

What does "Oscillating War" mean?
That means that you don't wipe out the first civ you fight, but merely
"cripple it", extort something for peace and immediately strike another
neighbor and repeat, crippling them too. Then come back later and hit
them again, in the meantime taking advantage of the added space for
expansion. If it goes REALLY well, hamstring a third civ.

=== 2. "Tactical Choice - What opening build sequence and tactics?" ===

Pre-game, 3 tactics come to mind for an aggressive opening:
- Ultra-early archer rush (2 cities)
- Archer rush (3 cities)
- Four city military build, horseman rush (4 cities)

Recent test games of mine on Emperor diff were showing the ultra-early
approach to be *very* RNG dependent, three-city starts could work well,
or bomb out too, and very good success with four city. But this is
Monarch, and the AI doesn't get as many breaks.

* How do each of these tactics translate to build orders?
1.Typical: warr-warr-settler-warr-granary-settler for capital,
then insert a temple, and find another food/granary city soon.
2. ULTRA-early archer- FIRST build is a barracks, then all archers,
who both explore and find an enemy capital and whack it.
3. Three city: warr-warr-settler-rax-archers for capital,
rax-settler-archers for second, rax-archers for third.
4. Four city: two settlers from cap, one from first other city,
then all rax, then either a horseman or swordsman rush.

I look at the starting position to try to help decide -

Starting spot looks very nice with river, nearby hills and grass,
and a bonus grass next door. All it's missing is bonus food, maybe
just out of sight. From the minimap it has good potential for being
central rather than coastal (especially with high land percent).
We'll send the worker to the bonus grass to work, and if he sees
nothing odd, found on our starting spot. More bonus grass ok. We found.

Wheat and cattle?? Sweet! We're working the wrong square first, but
soon enough... No food problems here, and no pressing need for a granary!

(Capital governer on by default? Ew, we quickly change that and some
other settings :P )

=== 3. Our choice

Since the starting spot is solid, and since we're in Monarchy diff,
with less bonuses for the AI and one extra happy person, I'm going
for a route between Ultra-Early and Early, which I'll term here the...

"Opportunistic Archer Rush"

In other games I hate the randomness of the first assault when you
face spears or multiple defenders. To counteract this while keeping
the benefits of an ultra early rush -

1. First build is a barracks. Vets vs Regs help turn a battle from
lucky to "going with the odds"
2. Use archers for scout, not warriors. Again, attack 2 means
decisive force vs warriors, not a "lucky attack"
3. "Opportunistic" Scouting - *IF* and only if I run into a situation
where I have DECISIVE advantage will I risk an attack, and sufficient
gain. Archer vs warrior-settler pair? Absolutely! Vet vs conscript? Yes!
Elite vs Regular? If the gain is worthwhile, and if it looks 1-on-1, or
if the situation is likely to become much WORSE if I wait.

Examples of good 'opportunistic' attacks:
- If I don't attack a single spear now I'll face multiple Impi later
- If I don't attack a warrior now I'll soon face spears
- An AI city site is SO good that the longer it exists the more
ground the AI gains
- The AI has something worth extorting to demand for peace

Too-close-to-call shots, which I prefer not to see much:
- Using a warrior to attack a warrior-settler pair
- Attacking a reg spear on a hill
- Facing two weak attackers with one stronger unit
- Where even if you win they can't give you anything for peace

4. IF solid opportunities arrive, it will look like an ultra-early
archer rush, if a borderline choice arises, I'll build a third
city and produce enough that I DO have decisive odds, and if
things look worse, or take too long to implement, I send the
archers further away continuing as opportunistic scouts, build
a fourth city and change plans to have a swordsmen or horsemen
rush, depending if I find horses or iron nearby.

How does this approach differ from others?
- It takes away from the high-luck factor of a dedicated ultra-early
archer rush
- It's slightly behind normal 3-city builds because of starting off
with rax and slower exploration
- It's definitely slower to reach four cities and to get a platoon of
swords or horses, but you do get long-range scouts looking for
farther away contacts, that can whack a settler pair if given opportunity

I think the added "odds" and greater flexibility make it a strong choice
on Monarch difficulty, although it needs more testing on Emperor to see
if it's too slow there.

So there you have it, I'm truly not a dedicated warmongerer out to kill
the first civ I meet until a decisive opportunity presents itself.

Feedback or questions are welcome :p
Charis

Based on how Charis has started and how quickly England has gained tech attacking may be the best senario. I am peacefully expanding but may be leaving myself open for english to attack me. By taking the offensive against a civ with the tech lead you can get more by allowing them to survive 20 more turns and bleeding them dry of tech and gold as you have done. It is a very unique approach but definintely a great comparison to the "norm" of expand until no land remains "then" conquer. Why not expand, plan for conquest allow the enemy to build tech and gold then take and allow the OCCiv live on only to be vanquished in 20 turns.

Hotrod

2550 BC (31)
Continue to play shuffle with Lizzie's warrior's. Second warrior arrives at Shanghai. Irrigate Shanghai wheat. Mine second BG at Beijing.

2510 BC (32)
More of same.

2470 BC (33)
More of same, begin mining Bg at Shanghai.

2430 BC (34)
Lizzie's warrior's approach Shanghai. Elite fortifies.
(I) American warrior appears. Lizzie's warriors attack Shanghai, elite repels both of them. Palace expands.

2390 BC (35)
Lizzie comes to the table. She gives us, Iron Working, Alphabet, and Cermonial Burial, if we forgive her offenses. It is a done deal. Get Horseback riding from Shaka for 1gpt, trade it to Lizzie for Mysticizm and 10g. Start researching writing. Regular warrior leaves Shanghai to explore to the east.

2350 BC (36)
Change Shanhai to Rax.

2310 BC (37)
The wines are now connected and we have our first lux.
(I) Beijing finishes settler, starts granary.

2270 BC (38)
Thank goodness, we find horses to the south!

2230 BC (39)
Pop goodie hut in moutains and get Mathematics.

2190 BC (40)
Movement

Meldor 2190 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Meldor_BC2190.zip)

(I) Shanghai completes Rax and starts settler. Barbs appear from the south.

2150 BC (41)
Warrior moves to escort workers near barb.

2110 BC (42)
Kill barb near workers.
(I) Two more barbs appear

2070 BC (43)
Warrior back to Shanghai.

2030 BC (44)
Barbs approach Shanghai.
(I) Barb pillages wine.

1990 BC (45)
Kill one barb. Canton founded at second choke point. Will bring in furs and spices.

1950 BC (46)
Kill second barb
(I) Yet another barb appears.

1910 BC (47)
Kill barb, reconnect wines.

1870 BC (48)
Irrigate wines.
(I) Shanghai finishes settler starts spear.

1830 BC (49)
Zulu get contact with the English for contact with the Indians, writing and 10g. Gandi get Contact with the English for 24g and Lincoln gets it for 4g (all he had.

1790 BC (50)
Movement.

Meldor 1790 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Meldor_BC1790.zip)

1750 BC (51)
Kill another barb.
(I) Beijing completes its granary, starts spear.

1725-1675 BC (52-54)
Barb killing. Get vet warrior.
(I) Beijing finishes its spear, starts a settler.

1650 BC (55)
Nanking founded.

1625 BC (56)
Spices are connected and we have our second lux.
(I) Finish philosphy start Code of Laws.

1600 BC (57)
Nail barb camp for quick 25g.
(I) Shanghai finishes spear, starts settler. Palace expands for second time.

1575 BC (58)
Movement.
(I) We are 5th on the Largest Nations chart.

1550 BC (59)
Movement.
(I) Canton builds spear, starts temple. Beijing completes settler, starts settler.

1525 BC (60)
Philosophy and WM to Lizzie for Mapmaking and TM. Trade Philsophy around to rest and get maps and gold. Take new map, 1gpt and 102g to Lizzie for Literature.

Meldor 1525 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Meldor_BC1525.zip)

[EDIT] Has to change links to new uploads3 folder.

After looking at Charis's approach, and comparing where the AI was in his game as opposed to mine, I now understand the benefits of 'early opportunistic wars.' Some of this depends on having the AI civs so densely packed on the map size- I don't think this would work as well on a Large or Huge map, with the distances between civs reduced- but the advantages of knocking out early AI expansion are obvious.

I'm glad I'm playing this, as I got to see the differences in approaches first hand, but I don't think I'll ever catch up with those who tried early wars, even the varieties of 'whack settler/warrior pairs and then make peace' that appeared. :undecide: I'll be surprised if the AI can recover from this in the long term- maybe if it finds all the other civs and trades like mad until you get a significant amount of riders, it will have a chance- but you'll probably be able to divide and conquer with a nice enough gift to the civ not in your immediate crosshairs. :p

Borealis,

Keep in mind that this map say it is a small map but in reality it is a standard or large sized map crammed into the smaller box.

The land tile count, the interciv starting spacing, the OCN, and tech rate supports civ development of larger mega civs if the AI stupid factors would not cripple them.

So normally you would see significantly less land to go with only 6 civs on this total map size. You would have to play a Large sized map to get this much land and this many civs with just the out of the box map generator.

Ah. Then such a strategy is workable on a standard or large map, unless of course you're put on an odd archipelago. The poor AI immediately within reach doesn't stand a chance against the :hammer:

The only possible hole in this strategy that I could see (others, please feel free to enlighten as I'm definitely one of the lesser experienced players around here) is that the AIs not on your landmass would regard you with increased suspicion. However, on Monarch the advantages you've already gained by grabbing that $$$/cities/techs would put you in a good position to deal with them, anyway. I'm not playing on higher levels yet so I wouldn't know how it'd work on emporer or deity, as my sole deity game for a while will be my hopeless try at GoTM #14 later this month. :eek:

One of the holes in this start is that as you go up in difficulty the windows of opporunity get narrower. The Ais start out with more units, and get production bonuses. You may be able to archer rush one AI, then switch to horses or swords and get a second but after that you hit the hole were the AI can outproduce you until you get past the middle ages. The main reason for doing this at higher levels is to give the room and time to expand at the expense of your closest neighbors. One of the reasons, I don't like it at higher levels is that to do it effectively you will have to use ICS or pretty close to it (REX) to start and get the units needed in time for them to be of use. This is one of the things that PTW has made harder to do, as the AI now upgrades its units relatively quickly when it gets the tech and resources. This makes those windows smaller as well.

Meldor is exactly right that the windows get smaller as you go up in difficulty, to the point on deity where *almost* the distance it takes to walk to your foes city is enough time to have fallen behind!!

The window decreases, but the need for SOMETHING to give you a smidge more room to expand becomes more critical, and often makes the difference between a core of 5-6 cities and 7-8. And with tech hard to keep up with, 'extraction' is that much more valuable.

Something tells me this approach is overkill for Monarchy, insufficient for Deity, and if well executed, perfect for Emperor (although I've not used it enough to have executed it well yet there :P )

@Meldor -
> One of the reasons, I don't like it at higher levels is that to do it
> effectively you will have to use ICS or pretty close to it (REX) to
Do you have a specific meaning in mind here for REX? I've seen it used in several different contexts.

@Borea -
> The only possible hole in this strategy that I could see (others,
> please feel free to enlighten as I'm definitely one of the lesser
> experienced players around here) is that the AIs not on your
> landmass would regard you with increased suspicion.

Insightful! You'll see an action of mind provoked by exactly this thought on my next set of turns. In this particular game/difficulty, I'm not even slightly concerned with the AI on the other continent thinks, and will take a Monroe doctrine approach to any attempt to settle my continent.

EVEN if I gain more tech and land in which TO build, it's definitely an open question I look forward to seeing answered:
1) whether or how well that gets translated into a faster finish?
2) whether or how it gets translated into more cities actually founded
3) how it compares to folks who take a rush-to-Rider approach and THEN wipe out their continent (my guess at Jaxom's approach?)
4) how it compares to folks who see a good chunk of the same benefits withOUT hurting their expansion and core buildup, by merely using a spare warrior to settler-whack (ie cracker's game is really going well so far)

> I'll be surprised if the AI can recover from this in the long term

They can't - any of the AI hit is dead and will along live only as long as I allow them to. On Monarchy diff this crippling action is irrecoverable. Oddly, the question in this game will be -- does hurting several AI this bad slow down the tech pace and launch date in the game?

Charis

The REX I am refering to is going for max settler build with the first four to five cities. Placing these cities close, but not as close as ICS. Once the first cities are up switch to Barracks and quickly get 5-10 archers/swords out and hit the nearest civ.This also requires you not improve as many tiles per city as you might, but begin roading toward the first Civ as hard as you can.

BTW, I think the strat I used, is showing , on this level at least, to be suboptimal. It is hard sometimes to adjust things down or up. As it turns out, I didn't need to be as agressive in blocking AI expansion into the area as I was. At this level I would have had plenty of time to expand without the blocks.

Lee's game shows the other side to the warmongering. He has built his cities and tech level up through commerce and trade. By leading the race to certain tech, he has been able to keep on par with tech, and have a better base of cities. But the higher you go in difficulty, the harder that gets as well.

Charis: You have a good point on possibly hurting the AI too baddly. In a space race the tech pace of the AI is what will ultimately determine the time to lauch. The more techs the AI research "for the player" the better. By taking the tech you get the same outcome as trading but giving them nothing. I think one of this rounds games has a line about giving tech essentially for free just to keep the AI on pace to help in the long run towards early launch.

Taking from A and B, to trade to C and D could also be benificial. Faster then peaceful trading? Not really sure.

Having a tech lead with no AI tech support may not be all it is cracked up to be.

Hotrod

What is the earlist launch anyone has seen anyway? What is a realistic goal?

heres my next three saves

2550 warrior takes out one of lizs warriors
2510 lizs warrior dies attacking my elite warrior,make peace with liz for bronze working,the wheel and mysticism
2470 change shanghai to worker,warrior built in bejing start settler,pop goody get literature,trade cont with liz + 10gp to shaka for cont with abe,trade writing to abe for writing.
2430-
2390 shanghai builds worker starts settler
2350 discover ghandi who is really tech backward
2310 bejing builds settler starts spearman
2270-
2230 canton founded start warrior
2190 bejing builds spearman starts settler,trade masonary to india for worker

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-SWIFTSURE-2190BC.zip

2150-
2110-
2070-
2030 bejing builds settler starts spearman
1990
1950shanghai builds settler starts spearman,canton builds warrior starts worker,nanking founded start warrior
1910bejing builds spear starts settler
1870-
1830tsingtao built start warrior
1790 map making discovered start philosophy,trade m/m to shaka for horse riding,world map + 5gp,tradr horse riding and map making to abe for mathematics

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-SWIFTSURE-1790BC.zip

1750 change shanghai to settler
bejing builds settler starts another,nanking builds warrior starts temple,canton builds worker start spear, buy american worker for 27 gold
1725-
1700-
1675-shanghai builds settler start settler,xinjian built start worker,pop goody and get code of laws
1650 bejing builds settler starts another
1625-
1600 discover philosophy start const.change nanking to galley
1575 chengdu formed start spear will claim first lux, embassy with abe
1550tsingtao builds warrior starts worker,embassy with liz to burn cash as chengdu is going to get double dose of barbs
1525 bejing builds settler starts spear,shanghai builds settler starts temple,hangchow formed start spear will claim second lux,canton builds spear starts anothertrade lit,code of laws,w/m and 10gp to abe for const,trade code of laws to shaka for w/m and 20gp

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-SWIFTSURE-1525BC.zip

these turns are a little disjointed as i played them over a period of four days, i couldnt really decide on a coherant strategy

The benefits of an early rush can be huge, and the higher the difficulty the bigger the benefit. I remember one of my early emperor level game where I played Russia. My first scout passed by Paris and noticed it was a high food spot. I quickly built 3 warriors and sent it that way. When they got there, a spear/settler pair was just leaving and the city was defended by a single warrior. I took over Paris and started rushing spears and archers in Paris while Moscow went back to a standard expansion plan. I rushed so many units in Paris that it was still having whip memory in the industrial ages. Paris never recovered but neither did France. Nor England who happened to be in the way of my French killing SOD. I ended up with a whole undisputed continent of about 40 cities and the other AIs never saw a single tiles of it.

But back to this game, Charis, I resent the implications that I am a vicious warmonger ;) I am not, promise! At least in this game. The strategy I used is probably better suited to emperor level but I think it will do ok on monarch level.

At crackers request I investingated the implications of barbs on the first 30 turns and will continue to look just at what effect barbs have on the overall scores, approaches and subsequently the outcome on the games.

Here is some quick data on the first 30 turns with a few things of note:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/barbs_round1.2.JPG



Cracker and Meldor used elite warriors to attack lizzy, SJF even commented at the time that he choose not to attack the settler because of having only a "regular" warrior and being peaceful at heart.


Hotrod avoided early huts to avoid barbs completely this round.


Stwils first round ended before it even started because of early barbs from a hut.


Jaxom lost 2 warrior scout to barbs, this caused later contact to England an Zulus. And required a second Scout/warrior be turned around to face down the barbs. That warrior promoted to vet but was pulled away from the primary task of making contacts. Another warrior was built in Beijing JIT and promoted to elite.

Edit to include both Jaxom's huts

Hotrod

Hotrod, I had 2 barbarians hut. The second hut resulted in the vet warrior from the first hut to be promoted to elite. That is in my turn report. However there is something missing from my since I built 4 warriors and had only 2 at the end turn 30, so I must have lost 2 to barbs.

Here is my game 2590bc-2190bc

Turn 30 2550 bc
warrior moves south
other warrior moves ne

Turn 31 2510
worker in Beijing roads mine
one warrior moves south, other one north

Turn 32 2470bc
We get wheel/ go for CB
shanghai worker produced/ set for spearman
worker in shanghai moves to bonus grass
warriors move north and south respectively

Turn 33 2430bc
smoke blazing in beijing/ set entertainer for now
set beijing to settler instead of granary (losing 2 shields)
worker moves nw to plains
worker in shainghai mines
beijing warrior moves ne
other warrior goes south and encounters a barb and wins!

Turn 34 23909bc
biejing produces settler (and civil unrest is calm again)
settler moves ne
set beijing back to granary
tried to heal both warriors by waiting a turn/ not sure it worked

Turn 35 2350bc
setller moves north
both warriors wait another turn to heal

Turn 36 2310 bc
Lincoln gives us HBR for 45 gold
worker in Shanghai roads
settler moves east
warrior moves to settler to protect
other warrior goes south

Turn 37 2270bc
we get CB/ set to Writing
warrior fortifies
other warrior goes west
settler moves to bonus spot

Turn 38 2230bc
settler founds Canton
worker moves to plains
warrior explores west

Turn 39 2190bc
worker in Shanghai irrigates
Beijing worker joins him
warrior moves nw

Turn 40bc 2150bc
workers in Beijing irrigate and road
warrior moves west

I messed up numbering the turns. ahhhhkkkk!

Well, I will fix it during my next turns. I think I know what I did wrong. Sorry.

stwils

Here are my next 10 turns. Think I got the dates right this time.

Turn 40bc 2150bc
workers in Beijing irrigate and road
warrior moves west

2110bc
workers finishes irrigating and roads
one of the workers moves south to plains
warrior moves south

2070bc
Shanghai build spearman/ set to archer
one worker moves north
other worker irrigates plains

2030bc
worker mines grassland in Shanghai
warrior pops hut and we get Mysticism

1990bc
worker build road
warrior in south encounters snow

1950bc
warrior goes though snow

1910bc
Canton was ramsacked and gold was taken
workers move
warrior has explored as far south as he should

1870bc
worker irrigates
warrior moves through snow eastward seeing furs

1830bc
Canton gets warrior/ set to archer
warrior attacks barb in Canton and wins
warrior moves east through snow
worker in Shanghai moves

1790bc
Shanghai gets archer/ set to Temple
Beijing on fire again. got another entertainer
warrior waits a turn to heal
warrior south move east
worker roads irrigated plot

Will get last ten early tomorrow.

stwils:)

I have opened a seperate feedback thread to support and comments or questions specifically about this game play format so that those issues can be captured seperately from the game progress issues.

This thread can be accessed at:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38447

Since this gameplay format is somewhat of a variant to normal play and since we are using a different scoring formula, I would welcome any comments of suggestions that may come up to you as the game progresses.

Here also is the next update to the Power Progression Graph for ALL active players up through 1525 bc:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_power_1525.jpg

(Friday 12/6 updated graph to include SJFrank and Zenga)

Here is the data table for 2190bc:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_2190bc_table.gif

(Friday 12/6 updated table to include data for SJFrank and Zenga)

I would like to highlight the coding element that recognizes techs gained through warfare/peace treaties/extortion as these boxes are shown with a W and highlighted in orange.

The solid colored boxes continue to be tech events that happened during this 10 turn round of play while the lighter shaded boxes are similar events carried forward for prior rounds.

I apologize for the slight increase in table size, but I wanted to keep all the techs individually displayed so you could easily see the number of techs being handed about via different methods.

Also, you may not some techs in the tables that I have marked as being traded or researched when in fact the turns log may say something slightly different. When a player did something like research most of the tech but then trade for the last 10%, I tried to code the entry to best reflect what I though the transaction really reflected. There where only a few of these so hopefully we won't suffer a major disconnect.

Here is the data table for 1790bc:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_1790bc_table.gif

(Friday 12/6 updated table to include data for SJFrank and Zenga)

Note that I have highlighted the cummulative hut benefit value for Swiftsure's game in the lower righthand column of the table because luck and timing is pushing that number very high. Swift's benefit from huts will have more than twice the short term value of the next nearest player by the time things are all said and done.

here is the final data table for this second round of play to correspond to the 1525bc timepoint.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_1525bc_table.gif

(Friday 12/6 updated table to include data for SJFrank and Zenga)
------
OLD TEXT CONTENT PRIOR TO 12/6:I will fill in the data for SJF and theos plus stwils's 1525bc if those save files emerge in the process. I have contacted several of the registered alternates to see if they will be available to fill in and pick up play from the current positions if any openings inadvertently occur in the pack.
-----
Zenga has filled into the game slot vacated by theos and picked up play from the 2590bc save point.

A great deal has happened in these 30 turns and we should be able to have some good discussion. A number of players declared some really nice trade planning and trade sequencing techniques and these would be good topics to explore further.

We have also begun to see the emergence of some serious non-hut-related barbarian activity and that may begin to color the game progress.

A number of players are beginning to show signs of having difficulty balancing population, happiness, and productivity. Where will this lead us??

If you look closely at the data tables and graph, Steve had surged into the power lead at turn 30 by virtue of his brilliant trading strategy from a central position and now his power progression has dropped back and is tracking almost one-for-one with LeeKendter's game.

... and yes Jaxom, looking at the 1525bc table we can see that there are no orange "W" boxes in your tech column plus you seem to have foresworn the acursed pratice of human slavery, so you must not be an evil warmonger after all. ;) Who would have started such a foul rumor. :mischief:

Sorry about being late. When I tried to post last night, I had quite a bit of trouble with the upload server.

My report for these sessions are somewhat shorter, as I skipped reporting all the scout/worker actions.

0) 2550 BC

1) 2510 BC

2) 2470 BC -- granary completes in Beijing. Barb and a English scout shows up on Beijing's borders. Warrior sent out the grab hut before English, got map. Warrior up next in Beijing, Shanghai warrior also woken up and sent to Beijing, leaving Shanghai undefended for now. Lux up to 20% for one turn.

3) 2430 BC -- Shanghai warrior fortifies in Beijing. Beijing warrior due in one turn, just in time for the barb warrior. Beijing warrior sent out to find barb camp. Checking diplomacy this turn... boy am I lucky. Abe acquires Iron, while Shaka has HBR. 65 gold to Abe for Iron Working, IW + 10 gold to Shaka for HBR.

4) 2390 BC -- Warriors in both Beijing and Shanghai completes. Beijing starts on Settler.

5) 2350 BC -- Barb warrior suicides against the fortified warrior pair in Beijing. Palace get new lawn :)

6) 2310 BC -- Beijing MM'ed to use a river forrest tile. Shanghai gets one of Beijing's bg tiles to hurry warrior production in two. Northern scout visits the American capital of Washington.

7) 2270 BC

8) 2230 BC -- Settler in Beijing completes, starts another, due in 4. The new settler heads towards the Zulus choke along with a warrior escort. Warrior took out a barb camp, loses one HP and promotes.

9) 2190 BC -- Palace expands.

10) 2150 BC

11) 2110 BC

12) 2070 BC -- Beijing completes settler, starts another, due in 4. Shanghai completes warrior, starts spear, due in 4. New settler heads towards the fur choke.

13) 2030 BC

14) 1990 BC

15) 1950 BC

16) 1910 BC -- Beijing completes settler, starts another. Shanghai completes spear, ditto. New settler send to grab a first ring spice/iron city spot.

17) 1870 BC

18) 1830 BC -- two barb warriors show up from two different directions near Shanghai, both of them will arrive one turn before the spear is finished.

19) 1790 BC -- Canton founded near the Zulu choke, starts worker.

20) 1750 BC -- In between turns, Shanghai warrior holds against two barb warriors, promotes to vet. Beijing Settler completes, sent towards the south to seal off border against the English. Nanking founded, netting 25 gold from barb camp. Tsingtao founded. Traded 35 gold + WP to Americans for Map Making. Traded Territory Map + Mysticism to India for their WP. Traded our WP for Zulu WP + 23 gold. Traded our WP + 48 gold to England for their WP. Yep, we're on a continent. Traded our WP + 3 gold to Americans for Philosophy. One Last Thing, switched Canton to Galley, due to be whipped in 10 turns.

21) 1725 BC -- warrior disperses barb camp in the south. 25 more gold.

22) 1700 BC -- catches Gandhi with 25 gold in his pockets, sell WP to him for the exact amount.

23) 1675 BC -- Hut near the southern fur country teaches us Literiture.

24) 1650 BC -- Beijing finishes Settler, starts another. Shanghai finishes spear, starts worker.

25) 1625 BC

26) 1600 BC -- Xinjian founded. With England appearently researching Lit, I broker now. Lit + WP to England for 112 gold, Lit + WP to Americans for 54 gold, WP to Zulus for their WP + 6 gold.

27) 1575 BC -- With the cash, I establish embassies everywhere. London is building Oracle, due in (less than) 36 turns.

28) 1550 BC -- Beijing finishes Settler, starts another.

29) 1525 BC

30) 1500 BC -- Chengdu founded, netting 25 gold from barb camp. Galley in Canton is whipped. Decided not to partial whip Nanking. Worker in Tsingtao completes, starts another. Checking Diplomacy, Code of law is avaliable, but my 40 effort on Math is about to finish in 3 turns, so I'll wait until then to buy in.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-SJF-bc2150.sav
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-SJF-bc1750.sav
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-SJF-bc1500.sav

* * *

Looking at people's reports, I think I have fallen behind most in the tech pace now. A major reason, I think, was my 40 turn math research. That is not how you're suppose to run a fast space race, as far as I understand. If I didn't get lucky with Lit from a hut, I'd be in serioius trouble as far as tech pace goes.

Military. I'm simply not a good early military player. The problem -- no instinct. The few early war games that were forced upon my hand were faught in a rather clumsy fashion. I won them, in large parts, due to my strength, which is building, infrastructure, and supply lines.

With this game, the moment I saw the cow+wheat at the capital, I knew I was going to irrigate them, go for a granary and the 4-turn-settler-fast expansion-route. It was just too good to give up. England, by expanding early in my direction, gets on the list of "to be wacked", but that'll have to wait until my Riders GA. I think that with +5 food per turn, fast expansion is the more efficient way to expand my power than early military action.

That's what you all are, slavers! And some of you are much too cocky for their own good, may the PRNG god release its wrath upon thee!

Congratulations to Hotrod for resisting the urge to enslave foreign nationals. Hotrod, we should start a movement 'Free the foreigners'.

This message was brought to you by the GRAI, the Global Research and Advancement Initiative. Donations in the form of new knowledge are welcome.

slavers! slavers! look
1) as my little warrior was walking happily over the grass he came upon these poor oppresed people who had been ripped from their homes by that evil despot liz and forced out into the wilds to build huts for the upper classes. once freed from this oppresive regime they willingly decided to help my towns ny carrying out various works.

2) looking at my towns i realised that i had lots of work to do around them so being the generous and humane person i am i put out tenders for various public works which by pure coincidence were one by contractors from other countries. i paid the money and got the service.

THERE ARE NO SLAVES IN CHINA

well none worth talking about

Such slander!? We prefer to think of ourselves as industrious "Liberators!" :hammer:

The glorious Chinese dynasty led by Genghis Charis proudy leads the way in "liberation" and will continue to extol this policy! Someday we will become a "People's Republic" and help ALL the globe to see our benevolence! Of course we do understand those who choose the lesser path of isolationism, and respect their views. It is unfortunate of couse, that several NON-indigenous tribes (witness the Engligh and Americans) have taken up squatters right in our territory and will have to be expunged. It is SO very fortunate that we can preserve some history of these backward peoples by liberation of their workers, and teaching them industrious ways! :p

The table is quite interesting, not as much progress for the Genghis plan as expected, due to reasons we've recently discussed. The next set went very well, but I have to think they will go well for many, so we'll see if the Genghis is well behind, or merely delayed with a stronger growth coefficient. (At some point though, the overconfident Genghis fell prey to that evil which the cracker dynasty didst foretell!) I'm thinking now I definitely will have to play this game to completion :P

I definitely need more 'Orange' in my column! The orange boxes and the (gasp) barracks are starting to trail the peace-professing cracker! ;)

One thought for analysis cracker - I would think the "uptick" from one set of 30 to another represent "good moves" of some sort by the player. Seeing the largest *percent* increase in score per set might help elucidate tactics that went well (?) Or maybe many of those are standard 'here you made all contact' points.

Charis

Here are my 10 turns for this round

1790bc
Beijing produces Granary/set to Temple

1750bc
change Canton to produce worker
warrior moves west and sees a barb
southern warrior moves east and sees a barb, too

1725bc
Our Canton warrior kills barb
Beijung worker moves to gl
our southern warrior notices that the barb is 2/2 so he goes by him

1700bc
n Warrior fortifies
Canton's new worker moves toward spices
Canton set to produce spearman
worker in Beijing mines
worker in Shaghai roads
warrior tries to slip by barb

1675bc
barbs attack both our warriors. we kill one each.
We get Writing/ set to Iron Working
Canton worker mines
S. warrior is now between barb and american scout -
He goes after barb. Kills him and is elite

1650bc
Our palace expands
Shanghai worker moves south
s warrior moves east

1625bc
our warrior kills a barb n. of Canton
Beijing worker roads
Shanghai worker mines gl
s warrior moves ne to coast

1600bc
s warrior goes north
Canton warrior fortifies on cow
Canton worker roads mine

1575bc
Beijing worker moves south to gl
s warrior moves north toward our cities

1550bc
workers road and mine and move

1525bc
worker in Canton roads on coast
our s warrior moves north

stwils

My lack of slaves isn't for lack of trying, there just aren't weren't any available. ;). I can tell already that I may be in a heap of trouble due to lack of workers. As my cities that aren't producing settlers start to grow the citizens may not always be working improved land.

The other things I noticed is the need for an escort service. Sending settlers blindly is okay until the barbs come out. Losing a settler now because of barbs would be difficult to recover from. At a cost of 70 (Power Points) a big hit.

I question the need for libraries this early as well. Cracker has 1 already but is it necessary due to the very high amounts of tech trading that has been going on in virtually all the games.

I will have some interesting things on barbs for this round later tonight.

Hotrod

One more thing ... (some one's tm) Has anyone given an thought to the cost or SPOILS of war. Cracker has highlighted the Orange techs I just wonder if there is indeed a true benifit whether it be tech, workers, land to expand etc.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_happy_BC1525a.jpg

Lux is the number of luxuries currently connected to the capitol while New is the number added in this round. Imp is the number of luxuries imported.

A red background in Lux Tax means I had to raise the slider to avoid disorder on the next turn. I will not try to guess what the player would do in that case, I will just raise the slider until all cities are happy enough to avoid disorder. An orange background is the other way around, I was able to lower the slider and still keep all cities happy.

# spec. is the total number of specialists (slackers :p) in the empire. A green background indicates a minimum science gambit in progress, meaning at least one of the specialist is not a slacker.

Total comm. is the amount of commerce generated by cities on the Domestic Advisor screen, excluding any other type of income. Expenses lists various expenses, from the same screen, in this format: entertainment/corruption/maintenance/unit cost. Ratio is income divided by commerce, somewhat measuring the efficiency of the empire in the context of the fastest space ship launch strategy.

Top cities list happiness factors in the top 2 cities in the following format: happy pop/content pop/unhappy pop:Military Police-Luxury resource happiness-Building Happiness.

SJF data was backtracked to 1525 BC to the best of my abilities.

This chart reveals a few interesting facts. For instance, we can see that Jaxom and Borealis are spending a large chunk of their CPT (commerce per turn) to keep their slackers productive. The chart illustrates the commercial impact of Cracker's free Shanghai but doesn't account for its' contribution to the 'English Forced Labor Program'. Another intesting fact is that lower commerce does not mean lower income, as can be seen by comparing Charis or Steve income to others in the same range. (Of course this doesn't reflect the fact that Charis is a vicious warmonger and Steve is a peaceful builder. :p)

Stwils's data stands out, she gains an Orange price for her high efficiency. However, her empire is the only one feeding a clown (the worst kind of slackers if you ask me :eek: ). The commerce saved by the clown is paid by the lower growth rate and reduced production in the capitol. In her defense, a temple will be built next turn and, hopefully, the clown will be put back to work.

We all know who deserves a lemon price for efficiency. :o

The table should become more interesting as things progress.

Couple of charts detailing the first 6 rounds of barb contact and the effect on play, including: production choices, worker actions, and in turn the effect on the QSC score.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/barbs_costs1_6.4.JPG

Note that all barb huts happened in rounds 1-3.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/barbs_round2.5.JPG

Lee lost population in the capital. And 2 warriors were killed trying to disperse camps.

Cracker redirect warriors to protect against roaming barbs, lost reg warrior to conscript barb. Used horses to roam the country looking for barbs to kill and get promotions. Killed 4 camps for a total of 100 gold, but lost a warrior and a worker. Not to mention 5 barb galleys that nearly kill his only galley.

Jaxom almost lost the MP in Beijing to roaming barbs.

Borealis cleared 2 camps and used cash to build embassy with Zulus and England.

Steve started to build archers just for barb hunting. And started with building spear escorts for his settlers.

Charis used warriors to protect cities from out side the city, "zone defense" :). Had to forgo another barracks to build spear instead for protection of Shanghi.

Meldor had barbs pillage wines. This can be very expensive in the short term.

Swift had no barb contact, or at least none reported.

Hotrod finished warrior JIT.

SJF: Modified his original plan to build just settlers in the capital to build warriors solely for barb protection.

Theos suffled warriors to protect against barbs.

Looking at the happiness chart...

Argh. Checked my 1525 save and realize that I'd thought I'd raised the lux slider for 1 turn, only to not actually do so. I'll have to remember to do it before I play the next set tomorrow.

Hello everybody! :)

I've been shadowing along with the game here as an alternate player and was contacted by cracker to see if I'd like to join in at this stage since there was a spot to fill. How could I refuse?:cool:

At his suggestion, I have played the second set of 30 turns, starting with theos' 2590bc save, that was closest in approach to my first 30 - yep, I got no tech from huts either!

Anyway, without further ado, here's my report for turns 30-60. Let's see if my pacifistic ways can keep up with the warmongers!:lol:



2590BC(30)

Change Shanghai from granary to warrior. Beijing left on settler, won't build granary with both cow and wheat irrigated. Turn up science slider to 100% (Alphabet in 7).

2550BC(31)

Shanghai builds warrior, start worker. Spot Zulu settler pair heading S towards choke region, may want to park a warrior there soon.

2510BC(32)

Beijing build settler, start settler. Settler heads towards coast near the gold hill.Warrior in Beijing leaves city on wheat road and heads S. Warrior near home spots English borders SW of Beijing with wines. Warrior in NW spies light purple borders, also with wines - will get contact next turn.

2470BC(33)

Contact India. Ghandi doesn't have The Wheel and will trade Alphabet, C Burial + 7g for it. Take deal. Break even science now gets BW in 5. Beijing warrior spots horses just SE of Beijing.

2430BC(34)

American scout wanders past India's borders. Contact Abe and he's ahead in tech too, no deals possible. Straight swap with India, HR for Mysticism.

2390BC(35)

Canton founded on hill N of gold hill at coast, warrior started.

2350BC(36)

Shanghai builds worker, start barracks.

2310BC(37)

Bronze Working researched, start Writing at 90%. Lux tax raised to 10% for a couple of turns until settler is complete. Warrior S of York choke spots hut.

2270BC(38)

Got maps from the friendly village - it shows a lot of furs immediately S of Beijing and also a southern coastline.

2230BC(39)

Beijing completes settler, start spear. settler heads with escort to wheat lake near York choke to stop English expansion.

2190BC(40)

Canton completes warrior, start worker. Warrior in N reaches American border. India has a worker for sale but can't afford him anyway.

2150BC(41)

Barb appears on spice NW of Shanghai.

2110BC(42)



2070BC(43)

Barb loses to warrior in Shanghai. Nanking founded on plains near York, start spear.

2030BC(44)

Shanghai completes barracks, start spear. Another barb appears near Shanghai.

1990BC(45)

Beijing completes spear, start temple. Canton completes worker, start temple. Other civs must have Map Making, maps are on the table, hold off for now.

1950BC(46)

Writing researched, start Code of Laws at full science hopefully for barter. Barb loses at Shanghai, will move for camp in a couple of turns when the spear is closer to completion.

1910BC(47)

Warrior leaves Shanghai to seek out barb camp.

1870BC(48)



1830BC(49)

Shanghai completes spear, start worker. Warrior spots barb camp.

1790BC(50)

Warrior in position for attacking barb camp next turn.

1750BC(51)

Shanghai completes worker, start temple. Warrior defeats barb at camp and pockets 25g. The civs with MM will trade IW but require a WM as part of the deal. Since all are expansionist I decline for now. Zulu, England and America all have IW, MM and Polytheism. India only has IW.

1725BC(52)

Worker clears forest outside Beijing. Switch production from temple to granary, due in 3.

1700BC(53)

Nanking completes spear, start temple. Healed warrior from barb camp heads for blockade duty in N choke point.

1675BC(54)

Beijing completes granary, start settler. Worker starts to road to horses and next city site. 3 warriors now at western shore of continent.

1650BC(55)

Warrior fortifies at N choke. COL in 1 - no one has it yet.

1625BC(56)

Code of Laws researched, Maths started. England has COL! Trade rounds commence. India gives Map Making for COL + 13g, America IW + TM + 9g for COL, Zulu Polytheism for COL + 28g. Go back to Ghandi and trade him Polytheism for WM + 42g. Now level in tech with everyone. Iron in 3 places nearby. Establish embassy with England.

1600BC(57)

Barb approaches from S at horses just as a worker finishes road. Move him out of harm's way and prepare to intercept with troops from Beijing next turn when settler is due. Zulu got Maths already, no trade possible. Take a 1-turn research hit and go for Philosophy, due in 5.

1575BC(58)

Beijing completes settler, start spear. Settler/spear pair head towards E coast near horses, spotting barb on the way. Will come back for him later.

1550BC(59)

England building the Oracle. Move spear out of Nanking to face barb . Noticed India had a worker up for grabs and decided to do the rounds with maps to raise some cash as well. Maps reveal barb camps too. Establish embassy in Washington with cash.

1525BC(60)

Spear defends v barb and promotes to vet. Disperse barb camp in far W for 25g. Scouting warriors start to head homewards. Still level in tech with all but the Zulu, Phil due in 3.


And here are the saves....



zenga 2190bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-zenga-2190BC.zip)


zenga 1790bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-zenga-1790BC.zip)


zenga 1525bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-zenga-1525BC.zip)

Thanks for filling in on such short notice, Zenga.

This will help keep our data table full across the planned 12 players perspectives.

I'll download you right away and update things to see where fate places you in scheme of things.

Good luck in the game,

Barb Action

The barbs did cost me something. Remember the turn after my ganary was finished, a barb warrior showed up on my borders. Well, even with a regular warrior already in my capital, I didn't feel safe enough, so I spent two turns building another warrior when normally I would have started cranking settlers. I felt that I couldn't take the risk of having my capital sacked so early. Better safe than sorry, that's my style :). The cost was delaying all subsequent settler building (thus city founding) by one turn (I would still have arranged my capital to go on a size 5-7 cycle, so it would have taken 5 turns to build my first settler). It could be significant down the line. We'll see.

Other than that, there were also some minor cases where my scouting warriors were forced to detour because of barbs, costing perhaps a few gold during the map purchase. Of course that's just a small one-time cost. It can be easily ignored. That all the hidden barb cost that I could find from my game.


Happiness and Commerce

Great graphs, on both the barb and the happiness topics. How much time did you guys spend on those darn things? Did you have to look through the games and the reports one by one?

Anyhow, here's my question: is efficiency (the income/commerce ratio) really important in the early going? At this stage, most of the "inefficiency" comes from corruption. Corruption stems from having a large empire as a result of a successful expansion. And, if the sizes of the empires are the same, corruption is rather an indication of the expansion style of the player. An outside-in style of expansion is going to create more corruption at this stage than a player who fills out the closer city sites first. At least among the peaceniks, I would expect there to be an inverse relationship between the populations scores and the efficiency rating. As for the warmongers, HA, now there is a group of creatures that I just don't understand :lol:

Efficiency

SJ: You are right that most of the inefficiency comes from corruption at this point. However, if you compare Hotrod's 12 pop to my 13, it is obvious Hotrod is doing something better, in term of commerce. His population is spead out more evenly, allowing him to operate at 0% luxury tax. My population is concentrated, forcing me to use 20% luxury tax. The net result is that Hotrod is making more commerce per turn while I have a city producing many more shields per turn than is best city. More commerce translates into more golds or faster research. More shields may or may not serve a purpose. If it doesn't serve a purpose, I am converting useful commerce in wasted shields, loosing ground on the space ship race. If it does serve a purpose, the shield investment will result in a faster pace up the tech tree and put me ahead in the race.

In the upcoming rounds, various people will choose different methods to deal with happiness, they will choose (hopefully) different government and the efficiency factor should reveal some interesting facts.

Hopefully, the warmongers will be shown the error of their ways. :p

I believe I'm late with this turn. If anyone's been roped in to take my place, I understand and am happy to continue playing as a shadow. Anyway, on with the turn...

Theos's turns 31-40
(31) 2550 BC - Four warriors continue to scout. Worker starts road to Shanghai. Taxes to 2.8.0 for 7 turn tech/+1gpt. Beijing Settler->Warrior.
(32) 2510 BC - A wheat square near England territory is too good to pass up. Settler heads for it before English claim it.
(33) 2470 BC - Meet India. We have The Wheel up on them (and hence Horseback Riding), while they have Bronze Working, Alphabet and Ceremonial Burial. Trade with India - I give The Wheel+Horseback Riding+4g for Ceremonial Burial+Bronze Working.
(34) 2430 BC - Meet American scout. Comparative techs, all nations up on us by: India-Alphabet; America-Alphabet+Iron Working; Egypt,England-Alphabet+Writing+Iron Working.
(35) 2390 BC - Found Canton S-S-S-W of Beijing, between two wheat squares, adjacent to a lake and river, on bonus grassland unfortunately. Starts Temple. Beijing Warrior->Settler.
(36) 2350 BC - Warrior just trained heads off to garrison Canton.
(37) 2310 BC - Taxes to 5.5.0 for this turn tech. Discover Alphabet->Iron Working (placeholder as I've a hut to pop next turn).
(38) 2270 BC - Warrior in the south pops goody hut for Writing. Yes! Change research to Literature at max sci for 13 turns.
(39) 2230 BC - Warrior starts discovering the furs down south.
(40) 2190 BC - Taxes to 0.9.1 to keep Beijing happy. Beijing Settler->Warrior.
2190 BC Savegame (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q_theos_BC2190.zip)

Theos's turns 41-50
(41) 2150 BC - Shanghai switches to Pyramids as a placeholder for the Great Library. Settler heads west of Beijing to block off English settlement. Worker starts irrigating cattle tile by Shanghai.
(42) 2110 BC - Taxes back to max sci as I forgot last turn. Warrior leaves Beijing for Shanghai to help against barbarian.
(43) 2070 BC - Garrisoned warrior at Shanghai attacks and defeats barbarian. The barbarian camp is spotted by northern warrior-scout.
(44) 2030 BC - Worker starts road+mines for bonus grassland south of Shanghai. Found Nanking W-W-W-S of Beijing, just by gold hill, bringing wheat into range by linking of cultural borders. Starts Warrior. Canton switches to Granary. Beijing Warrior->Settler.
(45) 1990 BC - Barbarian camp dispersed for 25 gold.
(46) 1950 BC -
(47) 1910 BC -
(48) 1870 BC - Horses found just south-east of Beijing. Taxes to 5.5.0 for this turn tech. Discover Literature->Map Making. Nanking Warrior->Worker.
(49) 1830 BC - Taxes to min sci (8.1.1) for 40 turn Map Making. Beijing Settler->Warrior.
(50) 1790 BC - Settler moves south east to claim horses, extra warrior at Shanghai moving to the same site. Worker starts mine+road for bonus grassland north of Shanghai. Tech to a min sci 9.1.0.
1790 BC Savegame (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q_theos_BC1790.zip)

Theos's turns 51-60
(51) 1750 BC -
(52) 1725 BC - Taxes to 8.1.1 for a grown Shanghai (now size 5). Beijing Warrior->Settler.
(53) 1700 BC - Found Tsingtao by horses. Starts barracks as prelude to being the first with horses linked up. I remember now to switch Shanghai to Great Library. Nanking Worker->Temple as it will clash borders with York and I want to have the cultural upperhand.
(54) 1675 BC - Worker starts road from Nanking to Beijing.
(55) 1650 BC - Barbarians appear west of Shanghai. Extra warrior from Beijing heads up to help.
(56) 1625 BC - Worker starts mine+road on grassland NE of Shanghai.
(57) 1600 BC - Taxes to 6.1.3 to stave off disorder in Shanghai (now size 6). Warrior heads out to find barbarian camp.
(58) 1575 BC - Beijing Settler->Warrior. Canton Granary->Settler. English start the Oracle. We are the happiest nation in the world. English found a city due to cover 3 furs.
(59) 1550 BC - Coastal river spot still available for us that covers 2 furs and a fish. New settler heads off for that spot. Indians start the Oracle.
(60) 1525 BC - Worker moves to build road linking Beijing to Canton. I am way behind in tech now, but I'm holding out for Great Library. Taxes to 7.0.3.
1525 BC Savegame (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q_theos_BC1525.zip)

Cracker and all, since we are in the discussion period now before we start the third round, I wanted to enter the conversation.

I notice in the last graph that Cracker made (1525bc) I am at the bottom of just about everything. What am I doing wrong that is holding me back? I would welcome any suggestions.

I'm trying to get some clues from the graph on just what I need to work on.

I'm hanging in there, but I want to get better.:) Would appreciate any help.

stwils

Originally posted by stwils
Cracker and all, since we are in the discussion period now before we start the third round, I wanted to enter the conversation.

I notice in the last graph that Cracker made (1525bc) I am at the bottom of just about everything. What am I doing wrong that is holding me back? I would welcome any suggestions.

I'm trying to get some clues from the graph on just what I need to work on.

I'm hanging in there, but I want to get better.:) Would appreciate any help.

stwils




Your issue isn't as simple to spot from graphs, as one person was in the HandyAndy game - that player was critically short of workers.

However, I see some things clearly wrong.
1) NEVER run entertainers in the capital. This also implies that you got the city riot message losing a full turn.
2) I don’t see any exploring units - this is why Cracker is off the scale in power, sheer number of contacts.
Contacts = potential tech trading, as if you are behind in tech - cheaper costs to buy / research.
3) As of 1525BC I have 7 cities, while you have 3. You are building a temple in the capital? That is *2* settlers not built! That is why you expansion phase is so far behind.
4) Shanghai should have been built around where England built Canterbury - BONUS food resource of cattle given to England.

=============================
@Cracker - How did the value of embassies get set at 30? I am penalized on the scoring system by establishing the embassies, as I spent more then $30 in cash to get them.

Lee, thanks for taking a look at my game.

I just downloaded your 1525bc save and I was struck by how many cities you have built (7) as opposed to my 3. And I also saw that your entire map of the island was visable - I could see all the other civs on the island.If you look at my game, only my cities are visable. Everything else is dark. How did you achieve that? Map trading or exploring?

You said that you didn't see any exploring units in my game. I used a few warriors to explore. I'm not sure what "exploring units" you meant I should have. Most of the time I felt my warriors were just wandering around...

As far as my building a temple in my capital, is that a no no, or were you saying I should have been building settlers instead?

I could not believe the difference in your save and mine, and we had the same number of turns.

And yes, I had a city in disorder emitting lots of smoke. (That's why I stuck that entertainer in there. Was there a better way to have handled it?)

Thanks again for taking the time to talk about my game and pointing out some things for me to think about.

stwils

Cracker:

Thanks for updating the graphs. I noticed that I got credit for only 45 research points for my 40 turn effort towards Math. I don't think that is the accurate value assessment for 40 turn researches. Since I will get math in 3 turns, the actual value of the total research put-in should be 37/40 of the total value of Math. 40 turn research is a way to create value out of nothing, I think the scoring formula should reflect that. A possible formula that I can come up with is MAX( total science in progress, value of tech * ( turns into research / 40 ) ).


stwils:

An early game habit that I got into is to press F1 before ending every single turn. On the F1 screen, I can quickly skim through my cities' happiness situations. And if any one of them needs help, I adjust the Lux rate right on that screen. The whole process should take no more than 10 seconds per turn, but it saves me from any potential rioting, and from having to remember which city might riot :)


JaxomCA:

thx for the reply

I didn't have map making yet. If you compare my first 3 turns, you should get an idea how I learned the map. I didn't have map making at that time. Look at where my warriors are.

The capital city advantage is FOOD. That means pump out settlers like crazy.
A temple gains 2 things -
1) Less happy problems, luxuries / luxury tax does the same
2) Control of all 21 squares for the city - NOT need for any capital city.

Early in the game - LUXURY TAX - this is far better the entertainers except in fringe 1/1 cities. This is one of the major AI weakness - entertainers, the human advantage is luxury tax. That clown slows down the capital growth - defeating its major plus - food.

SJF: I will make a note of your additional warriors (instead of settlers), I will also add Theos data to the graphics.

Yep I did skim through all the reports, but I was only looking for barb information. If it wasn't there I didn't include it. ;). If I did make a mistake let me know and I will rectify it now before we move on to the next round.

It will be interesting to see how the barb activity goes at the era change. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't that when uprisings occur.

Hotrod

@ SJF thanks it took some time but only a fraction I am sure of what cracker has put in ;).

SJFrank,
I didn't know about the f1 thing. Thanks. You say do it at the end of every turn? I'll try it. Catch things before they blow up.

Lee,
I have never done much with the luxury slider thing. But it sounds like it is better than doing the entertainer and waiting for a temple in my capitol instead of pumping out settlers.

I need to ask you. You mentioned I should look at your first 3 turns. Which set of turns did you mean? I can go back and read your log if you will tell me which year I should go back to. Yes, I really would like to know how you illuminated the whole island.

stwils

Check out this thread -

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?postid=622184#post622184

I was suggesting to download the 3 turns, and get a general idea how my warriors exposed the map.

Originally posted by SJ Frank
Cracker:

... I noticed that I got credit for only 45 research points for my 40 turn effort towards Math. I don't think that is the accurate value assessment for 40 turn researches. Since I will get math in 3 turns, the actual value of the total research put-in should be 37/40 of the total value of Math. 40 turn research is a way to create value out of nothing, I think the scoring formula should reflect that. A possible formula that I can come up with is MAX( total science in progress, value of tech * ( turns into research / 40 ) ).


Yes, the 40 turn science gambit has been discussed in some detail and it is a way to potentially get something for what may seem like nothing. What we have chosen to do in the scoring is recognize this is 'a substantial penalty for early withdrawal" type thing. You technically are getting more benefit than just the 45 power points of partial research because all the extra cash you have redirected or all the extra citizen work assignments that you have trageted to food or shields instead of gold will be showing up in other forms of power for your civ.

You only get the benefit of the gambit when you get the tech and not partially before. You have to compare this strategy choice to the player that really researches the tech at full pace and actually has 37/40ths of the coins invested. This player gains incremental benefits of increased trading leverage that you do not have in the min/40 gambit plus this player has other cash investment risks that preclude tech swapping even at early turns in the research.

Another example is the Great Library Gambit. A player that totslly shuts down research and pours shields into the Great Library should not get a scoring benefit for 50% of the techs that will come out of the Great Library just because they have 50% of the shields invested in the Great Library.

Lee,

Here's a link to some discussion of the Embassy 30 point score issue:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31311

The cost of an embassy is mostly distance related but you can recapture some of the embassy cost through selling ROPS and/or trading on your enhanced good name. The ability to sell a ROP based on the territory ratio of your civ to your neighbors creates a cash source that can usually offset some of the embassy costs.

The general thought process is that all embassies cost more than 30 coins but that the 30 point value plus the enhanced trade and defense aspects will offset usually still let you make a power point profit if you play carefully.

Originally posted by cracker
You have to compare this strategy choice to the player that really researches the tech at full pace and actually has 37/40ths of the coins invested. This player gains incremental benefits of increased trading leverage that you do not have in the min/40 gambit plus this player has other cash investment risks that preclude tech swapping even at early turns in the research.

Yep, I completely forgot about the trading aspect of the situation.

Since this has already been discussed in detail, there will be no further arguements from me.

It's rather interesting that running a qs game in the sg forum forces you to revisit some old issues.

Lee, I looked at your first 3 main turns. You popped the risky goodie hut and got CB right off. I did the same, barbs came out, and my warrior and worker were demolished and half the town's gold taken. At that point I asked to start over.

And your other 2 huts produced.

I wonder what it would have been like for me if I had gotten CB instead of barbs. And even after starting over I was leery of that hut, and finally after waltzing around it, later popped it when I had two warriors there - and you know what - 3 barbs still came out.

I'm not saying your success against my attempts are solely grounded in that popping and getting CB.

You are a much better player than I. Hands down. And I hope to learn a lot about playing from this game with 12 of us.

So did your warriors explore the whole island? I still can't figure out how the map was all revealed. My warrior seemed to go north to the coast and I did not find the Americans or the Zulus. Finally the English intruded their way on the scene and I saw a bit of them.

I still don't understand how you were able to get the whole island illuminated.

I really enjoyed looking at your last save. Comparing your save to mine shows me I have a long way to go.

stwils

The best answer I can give - look how far away some of my warriors are from Beijing.

Lee, I just opened up your last save again. I do see those warriors far from Beijing!

How did you ever run around the island and not get attacked or have somebody get mad?

I never got up that far with my warriors.

Maybe just for my own learning experience, I should begin again and see what my warriors can uncover and how far they can explore...

stwils

Stwils,

I would recommend that you watch your time commitment so this game does not swallow you up. It is important that things remain fun for you and that you keep your sense of perspective in the real world.

You have the luxury here of being intimately involved in a game that has step by step recipes from some very solid players doing good things all around you. The hut factors and other RNG events can be set aside to let you look for some of the major differences where the more advanced players have literally vaulted ahead through exploration, contacts, trading, and a few gambits.

In the general plodding along pace issues, you can look at the other player examples and watch how they first accelerate the production of food or shields to match what ever they plan to do and then the apply those increased resources to gain the next jump in power either through aggression, increased population growth, increased gold/research, or through more production horsepower. Players may be following different paths to the top but in general, the more successful players will be maximizing the extremes of the critical power component that they have chosen to exploit.

You may come back to this game thread and all the save files many times in the coming weeks as your admission ticket, purchased through the toil of playing along, basically gives you free access strategy turtorial that just plain spectators can never appreciate to the same level.

If you feel that your position could be radically improved by doing something different, you may want to comeback later and replay rounds at your leisure to see if you can get the result you want or at least match the results of another player. Your best option may be to look closely at the other player positions and to see which position in turn 60 would most represent where you would want to be if you could replay your prior turns. Pick that position and probe the mind of that player or challenge the other players to help you see the diiferences in your currnet position and how you could get have gotten to the position that you will switch to.

Then just declare that you are switching and pick up play from the turn 60 file that you have chosen. This will jumpstart you into a game position that will help you keep pace plus will give you the added luxury of a neww set of one-to-one comparisions to the next rounds of several players who will start from similar turn 60 positions.

I also want to encourgae you and applaud your efforts in playing in this game format. There are many, very good players in this game and that is almost overwhelming in terms of the raw amount of information that is coming out of this game. You could play 20 of 30 other Civ3 game events and you might not see this quantity of quality of information in all those events combined.

Good luck,

Cracker, even though I am hopelessly behind, I am happy that I am exposed to all these good players in this format. I will keep plugging along for now with my game. Maybe later I will switch to someone else's position.

You are right. I do not want to be swallowed up by the game and all its difficulties. I want to have fun with it.

I realize I am swimming in a sea with the most advanced players. That is good. Hard, but good. I always said to people playing tennis, and I played a lot of tennis, "Play with someone better than you."

Anyway, thank you for letting me participate here.

stwils

Let us have all players play forward to the next discussion point

We are running a bit behind the planned time schedule due to the server glitches this past week plus some lagging uploads. Please try to help us get all the saves and turn reports uploaded concisely so that any of the data analysis can be completed efficiently in the background and Open Discussion can procedd with everyone up to speed.

A couple of players need to pay closer attention to the timeline points if only because this saves time and helps to avoid confusion.

The next three save points will be:

turn 70: 1275bc
turn 80: 1025bc
turn 90: 775bc

Please wait until late Sunday 12/8/2002 to begin posting turns reports in order to leave chronological open space in the thread for more discussion all day Sunday if it is desired.

The drop dead date for Uploads for turns 70,80,90 will be by 12 noon on Monday 12/9/2002 Mountain Standard time. (This is about 2 days behind schedule).

Continued good luck to all players and I want to bend my own rule about not focusing on future strategy by cautioning everyone to remember that the Barb level is set to restless during the coming rounds of play.

I want to be sure I understand what Cracker is saying. Is he saying if you want to, you can pick up someone else's save now and go forward?

I have downloaded a lot of Lee's saves and I like his expansiveness and all his trading. And I wanted to look at some of Meldor's saves because he started war early but for some reason none of his saves would download.

So am thinking maybe I will pick up Lee's last save and see what I can do with it. (Would Lee mind?)

I can go on with my own - I am comfortable with it. But it is not really going anywhere.

Lee's save would not be that comfortable for me as his game is far more advanced and full of all sorts of trading stuff that I don't know about yet. Still, I think it would challenge me.

So any ideas? Or have I misunderstood Cracker?

stwils

I think you can take any game that is out there and go forward. If Lee's game is one you want to play with just say so and take it like a regular SG.

It will be good to compare how you and Lee both go forward. I have already played my next 30 and it is definetly interesting!

Hotrod

@Stwils -

Yes, there is a provision to pick up someone else game.

Much of the trading you see me doing is counter-research. I know techs that the AI places lower priority on, and research that tech and use it to get trades of value. The below is a perfect example - look how much I got from litertaure.
3 techs including map making. I used map selling to raise cash, and get all tm of known civs. If you learn what the AI researchs first, you can do great going the opposite direction.


(I) Literature is researched, beginning on philosophy.
1790 BC - It is trading time.
I sell literature to India for Horseback, Math, tm, and $11 - I love selling at 2nd civ prices.
I sell literature, wm to Zulu for Map Making, tm, and $16 (all cash).
I sell tm to India for $6 (all cash)
I sell literature to England for tm, $36 (all cash).
I sell literature to America for tm, $38.
I sell wm to America for $15 (all cash).
Every civ is broke except me with $120.

So, Lee, it is all right with you if I pick up your last save and see what I can do with it during the next 30 turns?

stwils:jump:

stwils,

your decision is an excellent strategic learning move and that will put you back closer to the pace of the action so you can draw stronger conclusions in the coming rounds. You are also correct in your assertion that you will benefit from drawing direct comparison's to Lee's moves in the coming rounds.

You have your notes from the saves and turns reports in the early game and you will be able to look back from your improved position and look for ways that you might be able to bring your original play up to Lee's position in future games.

Congrats to Lee on playing a game that earns such respect from a fellow player.

This is exactly one of the intended processes of this sort of parallel progression game format.

Good luck to all players in turns 70, 80, and 90. If you anticipate that you will not be able to upload these events prior to noon om Monday please PM me so that I may plan my time accordingly to keep the data analysis on pace and in front of you as quickly as possible.

I am playing Lee's 1525bc save

Here goes for the first 10 turns:

1500bc
worker to cow
warrior s
workers in canton irrigate
worker roads in ?

1475bc
worker irrigates cow in Tsing
Shanghai warrior defeats barb and is now vet
Shanghai is pillaged :(
Canton has galley/ set to temple

1450bc
Beijing is on fire. ^%$#^% Why are they so discontent?
moved luxury slider to 30%
Warrior near Canton kills barb
workers mine
The Americans want an audience with us
we trade maps (not sure why I did this as everything seems visable)
We research polytheism and now go for Construction

1425bc
Fortify warrior near Canterbury
workers irrigate
Beijing produces settler/set to settler

1400bc
Shanghai is pillaged :(

1375bc
worker stuff and settlers move

1350bc
Tsingtao produces warrior/ set to temple
Oh, I almost forgot. Last turn our galley was lost
f11 says Beijing is the 2nd largest city!
Hangchow is founded

1325bc
workers irrigate
warrior joins settler southeast of Tsingtao
Tientsin founded near eastern coast
Beijing gets settler/ set to Library
Chingdo gets worker/ set to warrior

1300bc
settler moves south

1275bc
workers do various things

Turns 61 to 70:

[list=1]
1500BC ...

1475BC Elizabeth knows of Code of laws.

1450BC A worker makes a fur colony otherwise it will take too long to bring in into play.

1425BC Lincoln knows of Construction. I sell Code of Laws to Gandhi for his 32 golds and WM.

1400BC Chengdu is founded on the coast SW of Beijing. Temple of Shanghai is pop-rushed.

1375BC Another settler ready, sent to the north choke to claim the horses. Gandhi knows of Currency.

1350BC Elizabeth knows of Literature, how can she research that in 5 turns? I doubt it. *shrug*

Inter turn: Liz offers literature for 130 gold. I don't think so Liz.

1325BC Sold Code of laws to Zulu for 25 golds. A galley is pop-rushed in Xinjian.

1300BC Canton finish a temple, starts on the Pyramids for real now. A couple of barbs camp are dispersed, netting 50 golds and no promotions.

1275BC The beginning of the Middle ages. Meet a cautious Greek. He knows of Literature and of many, many people. More serious trading begins.

My WM to Alexander for contact with Russia, TM, 2 golds
My WM to a cautious Catherine for contact with Persia and Germany, TM and 17 golds.
My WM to an annoyed Bismark for contact with Iroquois and Babylon, TM and 20 golds.
My WM to an annoyed Xerxes for TM, Literature and 51 golds.
My WM to a polite Hiawatha for Polytheism, TM and 83 golds.
My WM, Code of Laws and Polytheism to an annoyed Hammurabi for Construction, WM and 1 gold.

Gandhi is the only one with Currency, I give him Literature and Polytheism for it, catapulting China in the Middle Ages. China being a friendly nation, every scientific civ receives a gift of all the missing tech to enter the Middle ages and they all get Monotheism. :( Well at least they are all very polite now. There are 2 barbarian camps in range of my cities. I expect to see many barbaric horsemen soon. Women and children are advised to take cover. The financial advisor is asked to find a useful purpose for our golds.
[/list=1]

Now that is interesting, all scientific civs started on the other continent and all but one expansionist started on our continent, was this random?

Turns 71 to 80:

[list=1]
1250BC A settler is ready and is sent to the horses SE of Beijing.

1225BC As expected, a whole lot of barbarians show up. I take an embassy with all but Iroquois leaving me with 7 golds. I give the golds to Elizabeth leaving a treasure of 0 golds. The MP in both cities leave the town undefended, uttering something about 'not signing in for this crap'. Women and children are evacuated, leaving a grumpy old man in each city.

1200BC We discover the Republic. We give it to everybody, gaining Monotheism in the process. All barbarians are gone killing 0 pop, 0 units and stealing 0 gold. We revolt, catching a moderate 5 turns of anarchy. Research is set on Theology at one scientist.

1175BC Hangchow is founded on the north horses.

1150BC Tientsin is founded near the SE horses. Germany and Iroquois start a war.

1125BC ...
1100BC ...
1075BC We are now a Republic. A couple of settlers are cash-rushed.

1050BC ...
1025BC ...
[/list=1]


Turns 81 to 90:

[list=1]
1000BC ...
975BC ...

950BC The Library of Tsingtao is cash-rushed to bring in the spices.

925BC A settler is cash-rushed in Chengdu.

900BC Iroquois completes the Oracle, lots of cascade to Great Library. Beijing completes a marketplace and begins a settler. A settler is cash-rushed in Nanking.

875BC ...

850BC A settler is ready in Beijing, heads to the coast NE.

825BC ...

800BC Tatung is founded in the middle of all the furs.

775BC ...
[/list=1]

A map for the spectators. (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_jaxom_BC0775_map.jpg)


Here are the save games:
1275 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_jaxom_BC1275.sav)
1025 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_jaxom_BC1025.sav)
775 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_jaxom_BC0775.sav)

Q1

1525 BC (60): An english is parked next to Nanking, to attack or not to attck. I will decide to ask them to leave. She says she will comply.

1500 BC (61): The english conscript warrior doesn't move, England settles what looks like Cantebury to our south and a warrior is heading our way from the west. I ask lizzy to leave again, she refused and we are now at war. Change Naking production to warrior. Moving Western settler back east. Hurry temple in Canton so I can start on archers next turn, switching would have wasted 20 shields. Change Beijing to warrior. Change Xinjin to Archer from Temple and wasted 2 shields. Attack and kill conscript Englishman, promotes to elite.

1475 BC (62): Canton completes temple starts archer. Xinjin builds archer starts another. Beijing builds warrior starts archer.

1450 BC (63): Lots of warrior movement, sold our maps for very little gold. English won't talk.

1425 BC (64): More troop movement, Shanghi settler built heading to the West. coast.

1400 BC (65): Lit next turn and +17 gold, continue to move warriors around to guard against english attack an move on Canterbury. Elite warrior heading toward unpopped hut.

1375 BC (66): Tsingtao builds galley starts archer. Elite warrior popped hut and got barbs, galley heading south and see coastal water to the SE. Will head across next turn, more contacts we hope. Worker begins connecting iron. Begin researching republic.

1350 BC (67): Elite warrior barely survives barb attacks. Reg archer defeats lone warrior in Canterbury and razes the city. Without having a huge army I check on Lizzy, we get peace, warwick, coventry and her 23 gold. Ofcourse they are on the other side of the world and unprotected, with plenty of barbs around. Change Tsingtao to spear, Change Canton to barracks, change Nanking to worker. My lone galley sees a green boarder to the N, the greeks?

1325 BC (68): More movement.

1300 BC (69): Unprotected coventry is ransacked by barb horsey for 11 gold, :smoke: should've spent it on embassies.

Contact Greeks: trade WM for Contact with Iroquios, TM and 20 gold.
Contact Iroquios: Trade WM for contact with Babs, and Russian and 40 gold.
Contact Russia: Trade WM for contact with Persia and there TM.
Contact Persia: Trade WM for contact with Germay and there WM and 12 gold.
Contact Germany: Trade TM for WM.

Establish embassy with India for 32 gold. Building oracle
Establish embassy with Greece for 35 gold. Building oracle
Establish embassy with Russia for 36 gold. They too are building a settler in a size 2 city, ready in 2 turns, growth in 4.
Establish embassy with Zulus for 35 gold.



1275 bc (70): MM Shanghi to grow in 4 settler in 4. Trade WM's with babs, can see a barb hut on the West coast. Warriors that were moving on England are now positioned on the outskirts of town to protect against barbs. My 2 lonely cities are still a concern.

1250 BC (71): change Beijing back to settler, due in 2, grow in 2. Tsingtao builds vet spear, starts another, spear is heading to toward Canton. Found Hangchow to the North. Diplo check, trade Cathy Currency for construction. Trade Alex maps for 6 gold, Trade currency for 40 gold. Use the gold to form an embassy in Washington for 44 gold, they too have a settler ready too soon :confused:.

1225 BC (72): India dispatched my troublesome barb camp by Warwick. Xinjian builds archer starts worker. Nanking completes worker starts temple. Reg warrior kills a barb N of Shanghi and promotes to vet, will head to barb camp. Spearman from Tsingtao arrives in Shanghi for settle escort. Change Chengdu from Warrior to Worker, Xinjin is working on a temple. Sign ROP with India for 14 gold. Sell babs Currency for 20 gold and WM. Sign what may be a questionable ROP with Lizzy for her 36 gold. NO new techs of gold to be had. Establish embassy with Persia for 49 gold.

1200 BC (73): Elite warrior is killed attacking a barb camp.

1175 BC (74): shanghi completes settler starts another, moves toward the NE coastline. Galley continues to explore the other continents coastline. Sending archer to take out barb camp to the south.

1150 BC (75): Build Tientsin to the SE near furs and on the river. start worker. Disperse barb camp to the North +25 gold. Sign ROP with Abe for his 26 gold. Sell Hammi maps for 6 gold and his map. Sign ROP with Persia for his 25 gold. All civs are now virtually broke, still no one with Polytheism. Spend my new gold on Embassies with Babylon, Germany and Iroquios. Tsingtao completes spear, fortify for MP duty, starts Galley.

1125 BC (76): Archer heading toward southern Barb camp. Decide on another settler this time out of Nanking.

1100 BC (77): Coventry and Warwick build warriors both start temples.

1075 BC (78): Found Tatung, start courthouse. Archer attacks and disperses southern barb camp for 25 gold. Chengdu builds worker starts courthouse, Found Macao starts worker. Forgo the settler out of Beijing and switch to High sheilds and my late granary is due in 5 turns. Republic is due in 3 turns.

1050 BC (79): Canton builds spear, starts another. Foresty operations at Chendu and Beijing.

1025 BC (80): Republic next turn, +25 gold. More exploration by the Galley. Have to hire a scientist in Xinjin to aviod rioting, it would take 30% lux. The lone scientist allows only 10% research and increased gold to +29. MM Shanghi again, to go 4 and 4.


1000 BC (81): Learn Republic start Polytheism. A massive uprising reported by Tientsin!!! Tsingtoa completes galley will wait for a spear/settler pair to take to new lands. Start spear. Hangchow builds warrior start Worker. Whip a spear in Warwick and a barracks in Covenrty. Trade Cathy contact with the Indians, for Polytheism, Wm and her 9 gold. I revolt, hire a bunch of entertainers and scientists and will gain control in 4 turns.

975 BC (82): 16 barb horseys approach my lonely city to the south only protected by a reg archer :(. Move another archer for support and wake a warrior in Nanking for more support.

950 BC (83): The archer survived 4 attacks and promoted to elite before being killed. I couldn't keep track of all the gold I lost by Ransaking, just say I started at 118 and now I am at 52 a loss of 66 gold :( !

925 BC (84): The anarchy continues! The Americans out of no where declare war and Attack Chendu to the north and my warrior promotes, at least 2 more warrior approach. Change Canton and Tsingtao to Swordsman. Kill the barb camp for 25 gold. As predicted Russia got Monotheism in the era change, we are researching Feudalism and will trade soon. And Begin Chivalry only for the Riders. Trade Maps and ROP with Alex for 30 gold. Trade Hammi contact with Abe and the Republic for Monotheism.

900 BC (85): Another Barb camp the the South! sending the archer back to take that one out. The new Republic of China, Set lux to 10% and 90% research, Feudalism due in 6 with a major -28 gpt. Gotta get the furs and spice online soon.

875 BC (86): Beijing Builds Granary starts on settler. Iroquios build Oracle. Nanking completes settler start on Temple.

850 BC (87): Shanghi builds settler start on temple. Disperse souther camp for +25 gold.

825 BC (88): Load a galley with a settler and spear and head to continent number 2 to the East.

800 BC (89): Settler and Spear will make landfall next turn, Sword completes at Tsingtao start spear. Worker complete at Teintsin start Temple.

775 BC (90): Indian warrior dangerously close to an unprotected city :(. Spear and settler unload, galley will return. Beijing completes settler starts on a worker. Feudalism due in 2 turns +6 gpt.


Here are the saves:




http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_HOTROD_BC1275.zip
http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_HOTROD_BC1025.zip
http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_HOTROD_BC775.zip

When last we met things were hot and heavy with the Zulu, and an
opportunistic archer near the Americans had a very itchy trigger
finger - would the Chinese led by Genghis Charis continue down their
path of warmongery and 'liberation', or would he show a kindler
gentler side this set of turns?!?!?!

1500 BC - Tsingtao finishes warrior and both settler and growth would take
about 14 turns so we start one (for wines, if England doesn't do for us)

Americans can sell map, we just now realize, and buy their map. Actually,
we'll buy their WM and Map Making+7g for Polytheism and Literature, both of
which they could buy from Zulus. Wowza, his explorers have done a great job
exploring the continent! Almost all fog is gone! Our Mil advisor says our army
is strong compared to all other civs! Wow! This entire continent
and all other four civs on it, are mine to own, all mine mine mine!
With little focus on expansion, I have 52% of the cities on the continent!

Nanking swaps one more time, from rax to galley. SO much still to build, the
tech is moving along swiftly here!

1475 BC - With most of the map known, we redirect our scouts.

1450 BC - We wipe the sand from our tired eyes, and realize the Zulus
*lacked* polytheism and lit, and now have shown up with Lit. Minor oops.
We sell him Poly for his WM and his whole treasury of 48g.

1425 BC - Seeing a few more loose barbarians, but easily killed.
Sell England Literature for WM+all 67g. Go ahead Liz, build a library!
Maybe now they have more tech they'll learn something I *don't* know.

England has finally founded a second city. Notthingham. It's one square
west of the wine spot I chose for them to settle, but... it will do.
Liz has 6 more turns of peace treaty.

1400 BC - Barb camp dispersed to the west. Americans now have Code of Laws.
Will they part with it? Contact with English+WM? I dunno Abe, I kinda have
an elite archer on a mountain next to Boston, he has other ideas about this
diplomacy thing! We'll talk next turn...

1375 BC - Galley ready in Nanking, time to go exploring!
Oddly, midturn Abe did NOT tell me to get lost? Is he THAT weak?!

It's just too tempting... I can't help myself, we attack. The elite
archer kills the regular spear, and that's all he has! It's in such a foul
spot, probably a future oil location in the tundra, and we can't really
defend it. So it's razed. That's 25% of their cities, at this early stage :P

(Elite archer vs regular spear - "Opportunistic War #3")

Our ship sees "sea currents" to our east, excellent!

1350 BC - The American response? They're building the Great Library, in DC!!
That leaves Philly and NY, only 3 pop between them, to defend their nation??

Two English spears come out of Nothingham. Odd, do they send *defensive* units
to come attack me? (Or to chase my workers?) I leave the worker out, just to
see if they actually would. (And vow to wipe her off the map if she does)

West we disperse another barb camp and promote an archer to elite, although he's
down to 1hp. Near Shanghai we move to trap one of Abe's scouts.

1325 BC - The Indians start building the GL too.
Those spears don't even enter our territory, but wander south to scout.
We kill Abe's trapped scout. Our ship sees Green borders not far! Greece?!
We also see a wounded warrior up on a hill near a barbarian! Contacts!

Catherine has Code of Laws and Philosophy, lacking Math. She also has contact
with the Babs, Germans, Persians, Iro and Greeks. HA! We got all the pansy civs
on our continent, to feed the hungry Chinese people, where the other continent
has Immortals, Hoplites, Bowmen, and Mounted Warriors! :hammer:
I'll meet the Greeks next turn, so wait before trading anything.

1300 BC - Beijing and Canton finish settlers. B starts some warriors for upgrade
soon and Canton a temple to draw horses into range. We're going to want to
step up to higher power offense units and soon. We've got work to do!
One Settler goes east to Iron and dyes, the other west to river-cow-BG.

We see the Greeks at Delphi, and they have same techs as Russians. Ha, we
catch the Germans with a roaming warrior too, they have only Philosophy, and no
gold. He also lacks Map, Math and Lit, great.

We note India and Zulus now have Code of Laws too.
Outstanding trade opportunities this turn, here's what we do:

Germany- Contact with Babs, Persians, Iro, for Lit, Poly and Map plus 20g.
Others mostly have same techs, Persia lacking Code and broke.
Iro gives us Code of Laws, Philosophy, their Territory Map and 24 gold for
Math, which appears to him to be a monopoly :P
Greece sells TM+30g for Math. Russia gives TM+38g (oops, wrong order then)
Germany gives TM+20g for Math. Bablyon gives straight TM for Math.
Bizmark gives WM now for Code of Laws. Finally Persia gives their WM for
Code of Laws, Math and 1g. (He had a rather full one, nice!)
Everyone else over there but Iro now sell WM for 1g, they sell for 18.

We get ALL contacts, a very full world map, 70 gold, Code of Laws and Philosophy,
all for... Math that we got long ago in tribute. A proud day for the Chinese!

We're #1 in the world in score, which a monster tie for second among all the
civs on the other continent, then the bozos on ours at the bottom.
We rank first in Population and GNP and Productivity, 3rd in area.
Babylon, Athens, DC are the top cities. Our military is dead avg compared to
their continent. It seems NO one over there has seen the fog in the SW corner
of their island. We may send a settler over for a beachhead.
In fact, we recall our galley and switch to a settler in Nanking, due in 4.

1275 BC - Our healed archer comes in view of Washingon, will they cross a river to attack?

Save file: Q1_Charis_BC1275.sav (Turn 70) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Charis_BC1275.sav)

1250 BC - No the Americans don't attack the archer, but they move a warrior within
my range. He's elite too. Or was, before he died. Still, our archer is hurt.
That's actually about all I want out of Abe, now that I have the tech we started
the war over (and Boston gone). Is it time for peace and save our archer?
Abe will talk now! He'll give... his worker and all his gold, 38g? Hmmm,
why not? I only have one 2hp archer within 100 miles of him! Peace it is Abe!

(See?! I TOLD you I'm not a warmonger!! :hammer: )

1225 BC - Another settler ready, from Shanghai. Warrior next build.
This one goes North for the iron and horses. Our wealth increases yet more with
two more barb camp clearings (no promotions though). For the first time I wonder
if taking 40 to get to Monarchy would end up 'losing' the first-to-space in Q1?

1200 BC - Settler and warrior board our galley in search of adventure!

We found Xinjian NE of Shanghai, and Chengdu SW of Canton.

1175 BC - Hangchow founded south of Chengdu. It will become the fur capital of the
world!

1150 BC - Ah, Finally, the Forbidden palace msg - I was JUST wondering when it
would show up, since we just built our ninth city. This turn, our tenth,
Tientsin, north of Shanghai.

Eep a horseman barb rides next to Chengdu. Zone defense to the rescue! Our dense
build and road network bring a warrior from Canton to save the day. I need more
defenders - I have SO much cash I would HATE to see a barbarian uprising!

1125 BC - Midturn the warrior who saved the city is ambushed, and made elite.
Also, we see England found another city, Hastings. *STILL* no one has made
contact with the English. We could take them out, quickly and now, and the
world would never know! The new city is just five steps from Bangalore of India, too.
The spear isn't even fortified yet -- Our archer in the area starts to lick his chops!
No, no, just no benefit and odds are too poor. When we come to take out Liz,
it won't be by luck, but by force!

Workers move to Nanking to start hooking up the iron...

Our galley settler sees a nice two fish and multiple BG spot, and lands.
Next turn Tatung is founded, starting a barracks.

1100 BC - Our galley, now scouting was ambushed but promotes.

1075 BC - Beijing decides to slip in a temple now. Due in 6.

Anything new on the tech scene? No? This sure isn't Emp or Deity :P
Ah wait, Xerces has Monarchy. Bah, due here in just 14, we have nothing
he wants short of contacts he's not going to get. Oh? England has Construction?
Well I'll be! And they lack Philo, Code and Math still, as well as any contacts.
We trade for it, rather than use pointy stick this time! Code and Map will do.
If someone can research Currency soon that would be cool!

Save file: Q1_Charis_BC1025.sav (Turn 80) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Charis_BC1025.sav)

1000 BC - Sweeeet! Hut near our island city turns up Currency! We're in the
Middle Ages! [dance] Too bad I can't trade Alex that plus construction for
the free tech he's ABOUT to get if I did that

975 BC - Horses now online. Same time Canton hits 10spt. Look out England!

950 BC - List of most advanced nations, we lead followed by Americans, Persians,
Greeks, Iro, Zulu, Babs, Liz.

925 BC - Oops, a crack in our zone defense, no one in Shanghai home to cover
Tientsin. An 85 gold mistake, ouch. Our warrior there arrives just one turn late.
Actually, we recoup 50g from barbarians in same turn, wiping out two more camps.

900 BC - Another hut on the colony gives... maps of the region. Oh well.

875 BC - Furs now online, good deal, we could use the lux. We're slowing getting
our dyes online, that's for sure.

Russia has the Republic. Hmm, do we want that or Monarchy? I smell the aroma of
upcoming war, lots of it, and yet... space race, self-research, we'll want that at
some point. Iro and Greece bought in on Monarchy too it seems.

825 BC - Iron now online, we upgrade a few swords and check the foreign situation.
Republic and Monarchy much more widespread now. In fact, Russia will give us
BOTH for Construction and Currency and will throw in 86g. Nah, she'll just broker
both. Instead let's sell only Currency for Republic, and we'll pay 16g, to Babs.
Then we sell Currency around to all who can give something for it.

Inconceivably, the world still has NO knowledge of the English! Yet an English
settler pair and an India one are TWO tiles from each other. With my vet archer
in between them! It's time for Liz to go... I attack, capturing two workers and
becoming elite. Two horses were in position and get the order to go, riding out
of Tsingtao. We only need one, it autorazes Notthingham (the wine city).
(Opportunistic war #4)

Do we revolt yet? Ack, naturally we just started the war...
We do. Republic. We may have some fighting to do, but now it's going to be
one civ at a time, destroying them, not oscillating. Anything to whip first?
Tatung does a swap whip towards harbor.

We revolt. Seven turns 8-\

800 BC - An English archer pops out of fog near Tsingtao, and his 1-defense rear
is taken out by a warrior. Midturn India moved up a warrior and got a fleeting
view of the English 8-| Now the whole WORLD will know 8-| Gandhi, you're
next for pulling this stunt! In fact... he has a settler pair next to my
archer that just took out Englands... Easy boy... just one war while in anarchy plz!
His time will come...

775 BC - Massive barb uprisings near Tienstin. Someone else has entered the Middle
Ages! We catch an English settler pair spear coming east out of London. Our
horse tramples him. Another horse and spear and archer approach London.

The new 'someone' in the Middle ages is Xerces, now with Monotheism. Germany
too, who lacks Republic. It's an 'almost' trade, and for 27g more, it's ours!

Q1_Charis_BC775.sav (Turn 90) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Charis_BC775.sav)

This is probably the "strongest" I've felt all game -- the only question is... is it "Delayed" compared to the strongest more peaceful openings?!

Charis

Originally posted by Charis
[HA! We got all the pansy civs on our continent, to feed the hungry Chinese people, where the other continent has Immortals, Hoplites, Bowmen, and Mounted Warriors! :hammer:


Originally posted by Jaxom
Now that is interesting, all scientific civs started on the other continent and all but one expansionist started on our continent, was this random?


Hmmm, now tell me who is the warmonger between these two? :rolleyes:

I was hoping you would go for Monarchy to have a comparaison with Republic, oh well, maybe there are worst warmongers still to come :) At least we get to compare Anarchy. :D

1525 BC (60) Check cities and raise lux tax to 20% for one turn.

1500 BC (61) Beijing builds spear; starts worker. Canton builds settler; starts galley. Lux down to 10%. MM Beijing. Embassy built in India.

1475 BC (62) The warrior in Shanghai successfully defends against a barb attack. Palace expansion.

1450 BC (63) Shanghai builds settler; starts temple. MM Beijing builds worker; starts another. Nanking production swapped to spear to avoid shield waste.

1425 BC (64) Embassy built in Washington. Beijing continues MM and pumping workers.

1400 BC (65) Warrior at Shanghai survives barb horse attack and is promoted to vet status. Chengdu founded.

1375 BC (66) Elite warrior escorting settler takes out barb camp near Shanghai at a cost of 1 hp.

1350 BC (67) Checking reveals that America has Literature, so I shop it around. Elizabeth gives me TM + 40 gold, Shaka TM + 20 gold, and the tech + 5 gold buy India's TM. Lincoln sells me his World map for 85 gold now, and the rest of the continent is revealed.

1300 BC (69) Xinjian builds worker; starts another. Nanking builds spear; starts settler. Hangchow founded; starts worker.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/QSC-c1-Borealis_bc1275.zip

1250 BC (71) Lincoln wants to trade World Maps and I rebuff him. Beijing stops pumping workers and starts settler production to coincide with its growth.

1225 BC (72) I buy WM from Liz for 13 gold, revealing an unpopped hut and more furs.

1200 BC (73) Tsingtao builds settler; starts spear. Canton builds galley; starts spear.

1175 BC (74) Beijing builds settler; starts warrior. Galley sinks barb ship without hp loss, then heads for coast sighted within range across the sea.

1125 BC (76) Beijing builds warrior; starts settler. Green border spotted by exploring galley!

1100 BC (77) Shanghai is surrounded by barbs on two sides, and will probably have to sacrifice an improved square to defend the city, if the barb AI works correctly. :( Contact made with the Greeks.

The following trades are made, in order, after looking at the F12 screen to guess at the relative position of the AI on the other continent:

China gets: contact with Germans. Greece gets: Literature + 35 gold.
China gets: contact with Babylon. Germany gets: Philosophy + Code of Laws + 5 gold.
China gets: contact with Russia. Germany gets: Literature + Horseback Riding + 10 gold.
China gets: contact with Iroquois. Russia gets: Literature + 40 gold.
China gets: Mathematics + 5 gold. Babylon gets: Literature.
China gets: TM + 15 gold. Germany gets: Mathematics.
China gets: TM + 33 gold. Greece gets: Mathematics.
China gets: Polytheism. Zulus get: Mathematics + 20 gold.
China gets: TM + 23 gold. Persia gets: Literature.
China gets: 28 gold. Greece gets: Polytheism.
China gets: Consturuction. Russia gets: 183 gold.
China gets: WM. Iroquois get: Construction + 6 gpt.
China gets: The Republic + 54 gold + WM. England gets: Construction.
China gets: Monarchy. Zulus get: Construction + The Republic + 96 gold + 3 gpt.
China gets: 56 gold. America gets: Construction.
China gets: 238 gold + WM + TM. Russia gets: The Republic.

We are now tied for tech leader with the Zulu nation.

Embassy bought in Salamanca reveals the Oracle built in 10 turns there. Embassy in Berlin shows military buildup; embassy in Greece, Oracle in 18 turns, embassy in Babylon, Oracle in 41 turns. Embassy in Moscow shows a settler being built, and no infrastructure. Embassy in Persepolis reveals Oracle in 59 turns. TM from Gandhi for 5 gold reveals that his territory is severely underdeveloped, putting him far behind in the wonder race... India is the only AI civ building two wonders right now.

Tientsin founded; starts worker. Tatung founded; starts worker, and pops hut getting maps that reveal a nearby barb camp.

1075 BC (78) Our warrior survives a horse attack, and as expected, the barb warrior destroys improvements. The warrior at Shanghai attacks the barb, losing 1 hp before defeating the invader. Canton builds spear; starts settler.

1050 BC (79) Beijing builds settler; starts warrior. Hangchow and Xinjian continue building workers. Everyone except India on the left continent has Construction now, so I sell it to him for WM + TM + 21 gold. Other continent, same story with Persia: Xerxes buys it for WM + 28 gold, emptying the treasuries of both. Greece and Germany lack any cash to buy it with. Now that Beijing's popped that settler + warrior combo, the Chinese state revolts at the end of the turn after giving Beijing, Shanghai, and Nanking one entertainer apiece as these cities are size 3 or above.

1025 BC (80) Anarchy turn 1.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/QSC-c1-Borealis_bc1025.zip

1000 BC (81) Anarchy turn 2; Liz orders our warrior out, back into Chinese territory. Macao founded; starts temple. Canton gets an entertainer.

975 BC (82) Anarchy turn 3.
950 BC (83) Anarchy turn 4. Bismarck somehow has 25 gold, so we sell him Construction for that + his WM. Beijing gets another entertainer.

925 BC (84) The Chinese population chooses a Republican form of government. Lux tax to 20% fires all entertainers. Production in Beijing switched to Worker.

900 BC (85) Shanghai builds temple; starts spear. A barb horse approaches. Nanking builds settler; starts spear.

875 BC (86) The warrior at Shanghai survives the horse assault and is promoted to elite status. A massive barbarian uprising is reported near Shanghai. Gandhi trades me Currency for Polytheism + 17 gold. Catherine has Monotheism as her free tech from the Middle Ages. I start research on Engineering as the tech least likely for the AI to research. Persia and the Iroquois also have Monotheism. Beijing gets a scientist. MM sliders. Tsingtao builds spear; starts settler. Elite warrior in the south fortifies on a mountain in expectation of massive barbarian horse hordes. Spear/settler combo goes to hide in Hangchow until the restless hordes have used up their initial forces. Beijing production swapped to Marketplace.

850 BC (87) The Iroquois build the Oracle in Salamanca, and immediately start the Hanging Gardens there. Everyone else cascades to the Great Library... which won't do them much good, with most of the AI at or 1 or 2 techs away from parity. Shaka gives me 11 gold + WM for Currency. Lincoln gives me 18 gold + WM for Currency. Liz lacks any gold to buy Currency, as do the few civs on the other continent without it. Production in Tientsin swapped to Temple.

825 BC (88) There is a massive array of barbarian horsemen near Shanghai, but two camps have chosen to go after English cities; line of sight saw York de-garrisoned and pillaged repeatedly, and a horde heading for Canterbury, the English city planted near the furs down south. That should delay their cultural competition with Chengdu nicely. Shanghai builds spear, and starts another. Xinjian builds worker, and starts a temple to claim the gems. Lux tax to 20% to pacify Beijing, which is MM for more shields and less growth.

800 BC (89) Both spear and warrior in Shanghai survive the barb wave and are elite. Canton builds settler; starts spear. Production in Tatung swapped to temple. Hiawatha sells me Monotheism for 179 gold + 3gpt, which wipes out almost all of the treasury, but returns China to tech parity. MM Tsingtao.

775 BC (90) :sleep:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/QSC-c1-Borealis_bc775.zip

1250 bc
we exchanged world maps with Ghandi ( i think we see more than he does, so why do I agree??)
our settler moves south from Beijing
Horseman (barb?) kills :( (They looked so stationary the last time I saw them)

1225bc
More barb horsemanb kill. WTF????
I wake veteran warrior and move him nearby
Workers in Tsingtao move to spices
We complete road to bring iron in. so we can upgrade to swordsman
Chengdu ransacked by these horrible barb horsemen

1200bc
Great news. Our warrior killed one of those hidious horseman barbs
Settker moves south
workers build roads on spice
other workers road
Those barbs entered tsingtao and our warrior ook care of him and is now a veteran.
Our palace expands. !!!!

1175bc
warrior move south from Shanghi to protect settler

1150bc
We get construction/ set to Code of Laws
moved workers from spices to connect with Teintsin

1125bc
settler and warrior move south
Tatung is founded
workers irrigate
We set for Great Lighthouse. too many turns, but we need it
Hangchow has warrior/ set to worker
workers road from spices near Tsingrtao
Shaka offers to trade world maps. we say yes.

1100bc
Tatung ransaked! Bad news.
Well, it got worse. Terrible ransacking over and over.

1075bc
we get COL/ set to currency
shanghai produces settler/ set to temple


1050bc
workers do things
settler gets near bottom of the map with snow

1025bc

Here's my next 29 turns (where did that off-by-one error occur?)

1) 1500 BC -- Chengdu founded, netting 25 gold from barb camp. Galley in Canton is whipped. Decided not to partial whip Nanking. Worker in Tsingtao completes, starts another. Checking Diplomacy, Code of law is avaliable, but my 40 effort on Math is about to finish in 3 turns, so I'll wait until then to buy in.

2) 1475 BC -- In between turn, warrior in Tsingtao barely suvives an attack from barb horse. England managed to sneak a settler into my backyard, founding Canterbury within range of all of my southern furs :o. Canton galley goes off exploring to the east. Ahoy! A lookout sailer finds what looks like The Other Continent.

3) 1450 BC -- Beijing finishes Settler. Shanghai finishes warrior, starts worker. Hangchow founded right on the horse, netting 25 gold from barb camps. Galley sees green border.

4) 1425 BC -- Math research finishes. Zulus start on the Great Library. Spice connected to road net, Lux down to 0%. Galley meets up with the Greeks, they are way behind in tech. There is also some purple border to the north. Since no one is close to math yet, I hold off brokering for one turn, waiting to see what the purple border has to offer.

5) 1400 BC -- Ahhh, the purple border is inland, so I can't just meet the Purple people yet. Tiensin is founded on the eastern coast. Shanghai finishes worker, starts warrior. Beijing grows, lux up to 10%. Tech brokering time:

Philosophy + Lit + 5 gold to Greeks for contact with Bab + territory map.
Map Making + 1 gold to Bab for contact with Persians + territory map.
Here's an idea, establish embassy with Xman first to bring him up to polite, then sign RoP + 9 gold for contact with Iroquois + territory map.
Embassy with Greeks, RoP for contact with Germans + 5 gold.
Embassy with Germans, RoP for contact with Russians + territory map + 2 gold.
Embassy with Russians, RoP for territory map + 18 gold.
RoP with Iroquois for territory map + 5 gold.
RoP (Embassy first) with Bab + Philosophy + 7 gold for their WM.
Philosophy + 12 to German for their WM.

...back to our continent, Math (at monopoly) + RoP + 15 gold to Americans for Polytheism (monopoly).
Math + Poly to Zulus for Code of Law + 31 gold + WM.
Math + Poly to the English for WM, 85 gold + worker.

Iroquois have currency, WM + Lit + CoL for their WM + Currency + 72 gold. Normally, at this stage, it would be to my advantage to keep the two continents in the dark from eachother, but this is a fast space race game, so I brokered the map and contacts around. Where the AI couldn't pay for it, I give it to them as a gift. By the end of the round, everybody knows everybody else, and I have all the cash in the world :)
The last action of the turn: set research to Republic at max, due in 16 turns, and save game. I'm not going through that again :p.

6) 1375 BC
7) 1350 BC -- Beijing finishes Settler, starts another.

8) 1325 BC
9) 1300 BC -- Yecks, an unescorted setters walk right next to a barb.

10) 1275 BC -- Settler dies, the warrior that was one step behind the settler cleans up the mess.

* * *

11) 1250 BC -- Beijing finishes Settler, starts another.

12) 1225 BC -- Warrior defeats barb camp, avenging our lost settler, and promotes to vet. Checking diplomacy this round, Babs are the only one with Construction. I'm not buying in at monopoly price. Trades WM around for change while we're at it.

13) 1200 BC
14) 1175 BC -- Up north, warrior defeats barb, promotes to vet. I do not buy Construction, because there is a barb camp in our territory.

15) 1150 BC -- Warrior barely defeats barb camp. Galley lands settler/spear pair on the bonus grass penisula on the other continent -- what do you know, another barb camp right next door.

16) 1125 BC -- Tatung founded on the hill on the bg penisula, with 5 bg's and one fish in range, also nets another 25 gold from the barb camp. Iron near Chengdu (up north) is connected. Two turns to Republic, science down to 80%

17) 1110 BC -- We get news of Massive Barb uprising near Xinjian. Tatung spears defeats barb warrior and promotes. Nice, the founding of Tatung beats barb uprising by one turn. Checking diplomacy, Zulus, Babs and Iroquois are in the Middle ages. Since Republic is due in one turn, I holdon buying Construction. I do trade WP to reveil barb camp locations. Aha, the English town of Canterbury is going the take on the full force of the Xinjian uprising for us :). Macao founded on the fresh water lake to the west of the Beijing.

18) 1075 BC -- In between turns, Repulic comes in. I revolt and rolled a very lucky 3-turn anarchy. Republic to Iroquois for Construction, WM, and 57 gold. We are in the middle ages. Gifting Construction to the Russians also brings them into the middle ages also. Now, I buy Monotheism from them for Republic. Germans are behind by quite a few teches, so I help them out with Polytheism for WM + 43 gold.

19) 1050 BC -- Doh! Left galley in sea water due to a major stash of weed.

20) 1025 BC -- Lost galley :(

* * *

21) 1000 BC -- Dawn of a new millennium, the glorious Chinese Republic emerges from anarchy. Lux to 20%, science to 60%. Theology in 11 while losing 10 gpt. The tech pace is WAY ahead of the shields in this game. I'm paying a total of one single gold per turn in building maintainance, yet I have the tech for Cathedrals already.

22) 975 BC -- Fur from Tsingtao is connected to the road net, lux down to 10%.

23) 950 BC -- Beijing completes settler, starts another.

24) 925 BC -- Shanghai completes barrack, starts settler.

25) 900 BC
26) 875 BC -- Iroquois completes the Oracle. Everyone cascades. Barb warrior pilages iron near Chengdu. Checking diplomacy, some AI's have monarchy, most are in the middle ages.

27) 850 BC -- Beijing completes settler, starts another. Shanghai completes settler, starts horseman.

28) 825 BC
29) 800 BC
30) 775 BC -- warrior defeats barb camp for 25 gold. Republic + RoP + Currency to Alex for Monarchy. Renegotiate RoP where more than 20 gold could be earned.

* * *

The tech pace slowed dramatically for the last 10 turns. Seemed like everyone was in a catch up mode. I had a feeling that I should have just gifted everyone to tech parity.

Turn 90 is a nice break point. My civ is at a cross road between military and infastructure (about 4-5 more cities to be found). Due to the extreme fast tech pace of the game, I'm expecting a smaller than usual window for our rider vs. pike advantage. It would seem prudent for me to focus on military before libraries.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-SJF-bc1275-new.sav
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-SJF-bc1025.sav
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-SJF-bc775.sav

[edit:] had to re-upload the 1275BC file, the old file was suspiciously large. Sorry about the irregular name. Is there anyway to delete an uploaded file?

The Dynasty continues:

1500-1275bc - (turns 61-70)

1500 BC (turn 61) – Set embassy with Greece for 34 gold.
1475 BC (turn 62) – Killed a camp Northeast of Beijing for 25 gold.
1425 BC (turn 64) – Horseman out of Shanghai. Settler out of Beijing. Trade Philosophy to Xerxes for World map and 2 gold. Cathy gives 44 gold. Otto gives 25 gold and world map.

1400 BC (turn 65) – Discovered Republic. Begged the people to please revolt me and they pop back with a two turn anarchy forecast. We are joyful. (no screams from the peanut gallery please; I never get 2 turn anarchies in competition games) Sacked a Ghuzz camp for 25 gold. (is that pronounced "goooooze" or "Gee-huzzzzzzzzzzzzz")

1375 BC (turn 66) – Forestry completes a Granary in Nanking even during anarchy. Found Hangchow northeast of Beijing.
1350 BC (turn 67) – Now a Republic. Luxuries to 10%
1325 BC (turn 68) – Set an embassy with Shaka for 42 gold to calm him down; no effect. Set a ROP in exchange for World Map and that dropped him to cautious. Sold Alex a ROP for 16 gold. Renewed ROP with ABE and he gave 17 gold. Set embassy with Cathy for 49 gold and the recovered 10 gold from her for a ROP. Trade the Iroqs a world map for Currency. All military forces are recalled from the frontiers to patrol the nearby lands of expansion to suppress the heathens.
1300 BC (turn 69) – Worker out of Nanking.
1275 BC (turn 70) – Spearman out of Shanghai. Settler out of Beijing.

1250-1025bc - (turns 71-80)

1250 BC (turn 71) – Turned research down to zero because too many current barb camps would erupt near us at one time.
1225 BC (turn 72) – Killed the northwest camp for 25 gold. Killed the east camp for 25 gold.
1200 BC (turn 73) – Granary in Xinjian. Purchased Construction from Cathy for 74 gold to let all hell break loose. Sold Construction to Hiawatha for 25 gold plus world map; to Xerxes for 25 gold and world map; and to Abe for 51 gold and world map. Killed the south camp for 25 gold.
1175 BC (turn 74) – Settler out of Beijing. Spearman out of Shanghai. Temple in Chengdu.

1150 BC (turn 75) – Too many barbs and Zulus everywhere. Oh my!!! :eek: We hold the choke points and 32+ horsemen are sighted west with an eye on Libby's petticoat. :eek: :eek: Shaka's archers are being massacred by bloodthirsty hordes in the gem mountains north of the choke. :eek: :eek: :cooool:

1100 BC (turn 77) – Settler out of Beijing. Spearman out of Shanghai. Worker out of Xinjian. Sacked a barb camp south for 25 gold. Purchased a slave from Libby for 27 gold
1075 BC (turn 78) – Lost a turn to disorder in two towns due to pilot error and a barb galley on fish and the damned nuisance English scout being in the big damned middle of the road. (but I am a Peaceful Chinese leader unlike some of my peers. I wish there was a unit with the "Arrest and Deport" special ability.) Killed a barb camp west by Libby for 25 gold that probably came from Libby's jewelry. Uprisings are clearly over and we had none in Chinese territory due to active patrolling of the nether regions by are stalwart horse units.
1025 BC (turn 80) – Library in Tsingtao.

1000-775bc - (turns 81-90)

1000 BC (turn 81) – Reading a book.
975 BC (turn 82) – Found Macao and Anyang.
950 BC (turn 83) – Discovered Engineering. Settler out of Nanking.
925 BC (turn 84) – Settler out of Shanghai.
850 BC (turn 87) – Discovered Feudalism. Went to war with Gandhi since he was so far behind in techs to be worthless and to give Shaka something to do other than leer at me. Captured two slaves.
800 BC (turn 89) – Horseman out of Shanghai.
775 BC (turn 90) – Libraries in Xinjian and Hangchow. Saving contact trades for "the big shaboozie!!"

Remember to use great caution with these save files 'cause they be yucked up by the 100x compression snafu:
cracker's 1275bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_cracker_bc1275.zip)
cracker's 1025bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_cracker_bc1025.zip)
cracker's 775bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_cracker_bc0775.zip)

1475 BC (I) :mad: The barbs have pretty much killed my QSC score - I again lose population to a barb. I killed the barb to the east, to have a horse sneak in from the south. :mad:
1450 BC - Hangchow is formed - destroying a barb camp when it is formed :)
1425 BC - I sell Polytheism to England for Code of Laws, wm, $3.
1400 BC (I) - I hate barbs! I horseman appears and kills the warrior I was sending to get rid of the camp.
1275 BC - The expansion phase is slowing down so I decide to try for the Pyramids.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads2/Q1-LKENDTER-1275BC.zip
1225 BC - America just fragged a barb camp - I sell him Poly for wm, $25.
1150 BC - Tientsin is formed, frags a barb camp, and will give us furs when the road completes.
1125 BC - I really HATE the AI choice for squares - growth wasted at Tsingato as I just caught the stupid choice of forest, not grassland for the next square.
(I) Our first spearman completes, we need to increase the military as the expansion phase is ending.
1100 BC - Two civs have entered the Middle Ages - massive barb uprising that should screw England.
The disaster part of the news - it ISN’T my landmass.
1075 BC - Tantung is formed - a fishing village.
(I) The first wonder completes - Oracle by the Iroquois.
1025 BC (I) - The revolt to Republic begins.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-LKENDTER-1025BC.zip

Originally posted by JaxomCA
Now that is interesting, all scientific civs started on the other continent and all but one expansionist started on our continent, was this random?


:mischief::mischief: My TA follows instructions well, but that should be "... all but TWO expansionist started on our continent"

Yes, Catherine follows either a scientific expansion or an expansionist science. What does TA mean?

1000 BC - Not bad, I only draw 3 turns of Anarchy.
This is disappointing, some of the AI completed Republic the same time I did :(
I can still get Construction from India for Republic.
I sell Construction to America for Currency, $15, wm.
925 BC - The Republic of China is formed - not bad 30% luxuries despite just one connected luxury.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-LKENDTER-775BC.zip


The above 10 were NOT my exact, original turns. My 775BC save is missing.

NOTE: I have 570BC, 370BC, 170BC, 30AD, and 230 AD around.
570BC will be slightly out of sync versus this 775BC, but the other choice is to miss 10 turns, or have radically different game. I know I would play 690BC much different :P

My TA follows instructions well, but that should be "... all but TWO expansionist started on our continent"


Hmmm..
If I read this correctly, you have someone set the game up this way. If so, that did give you a bit of an advantage as you knew what to expect on our landmass.

My next 30 turns

1500 nanking builds galley,loads warrior and moves east.nanking starts spear

1475 meet greece who knows currency
trade construction and contact with abe for currency and contact with hiawatha
trade abe contact to hiawatha for babylon contact and 2gp
trade abe contact to babylon for germany contact
trade abe contact to germany for russia contact
trade abe and liz contact to russia for persia contact,territory map and 60gp
trade abe and liz contact to persia for territory map and 30gp
trade w/m for w/m with hiawatha
trade w/m for w/m and 20gp with abe
trade w/m for w/m and 20gp with liz
trade w/m for w/m and 5gp with shaka
trade w/m for 20gp with gandhi
trade liz contact to hiawatha for 7gp
trade germany contact to liz for 4gp

1450-

1425xinjian builds worker starts spearman

1400bejing builds settler starts spearman
tsingtao builds worker starts worker

1375 nanking builds spearman starts settler

1350 canton builds spearman starts settler
tientsin founded adjacent to gems, starts spear
tatung founded starts worker

1325-

1300 hangchow builds spear starts temple

1275 nanking builds settler starts temple

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-SWIFTSURE-1275BC.zip

1250-

1225 macoa built starts spear

1200-

1175 xinjian builds spear starts settler

1150 bejing builds temple starts spear
shanghai builds temple starts settler
tsingtao builds worker starts temple
anyang founded starts spear
canton builds settler starts temple

1125 trade polytheism to germany for 20gp
trade w/m to everyone else for 77gp total

1100 tatung build worker starts another

1075 discover republic start mono
bejing builds spear starts settler
shantung founded starts worker

1050chengdu builds spear starts worker
trade rep to russia for mono,w/m and 50gp, start theology
trade rep to abe forw/m and 70gp

1025 shanghai builds settler starts palace
revolt and draw three turns of anarchy

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-SWIFTSURE-1025BC.zip

1000-

975 chengdu builds worker starts temple

950 republic of china formed

925 anyang builds spear starts worker
bejing builds settler starts spear
xinjian builds settler starts temple

900 chinan founded start spear

875-

850 bejing builds spear starts settler
tatung builds worker starts another

825-

800 hangchow builds temple starts horseman
shantung builds worker starts temple
kaifeng founded start worker

775 tientsin builds spear starts worker
bejing builds settler starts spear

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-SWIFTSURE-775BC.zip

Theos's turns 61-70
(61) 1500 BC - Warrior dies trying to take out barb camp. Beijing changes from Warrior to Archer. Scouting warriors all start heading back. English demand Literature. I cave.
(62) 1475 BC - Worker starts road+mine on river bonus grassland at Shanghai. Taxes to 8.0.2 for no change in happiness. Tsingtao Barracks->Worker to connect up the horses.
(63) 1450 BC - Worker to river wheat by Canton to irrigate+road. Beijing Archer->Settler.
(64) 1425 BC - Archer heads off to try and take out barb camp. Taxes to 7.0.3 with Shanghai's growth. Zulu start the Oracle.
(65) 1400 BC -
(66) 1375 BC -
(67) 1350 BC - The barb camp has been taken care of by the English, but the archer will still wander around. Other warriors will head out to keep the area clear of camps. Found Xinjian S-S-S-S-S-SE-SE-SE-SE-SE of Beijing by some furs and fish. Xinjian starts training a worker. Tsingtao Worker->Archer (placeholder for horseman).
(68) 1325 BC - Tsingtao Worker to road the horses. Another worker starts road to other wheat by Canton to irrigate it.
(69) 1300 BC - Beijing Settler->Spearman. Canton Settler->Settler.
(70) 1275 BC - Canton Settler heads for fish river delta to divide up the English territory as they have their fur city (one with cattle) well within my rightful territory. Beijing settler heads north for a spice and fish area.

1275 BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q_theos_BC1275.zip)

Theos's turns 71-80
(71) 1250 BC - Horses connected to Tsingtao so switch placeholder to horseman. Tsingtao worker mines the square.
(72) 1225 BC -
(73) 1200 BC - Shanghai worker goes to road river forest square for a more direct route to Beijing. America demands tribute (TM+34g) and I give in.
(74) 1175 BC - Tsingtao worker to bonus grassland south of the city to mine+road it. Found Chengdu S-S-S-SW-SW-SW-SW-SW of Beijing and start training a worker. A nearby warrior garrisons it. Beijing spearman->Settler. Indians start the Great Library.
(75) 1150 BC -
(76) 1125 BC - Found Hangchow N-N-N-NW-NW-NW-NW-NW of Beijing and start training a worker. A warrior heads off to garrison it, and spots a barbarian north of Shanghai. Xinjian Worker->Spearman.
(77) 1100 BC - Xinjian worker to bonus grassland north of town to mine+road it. Canton worker starts irrigating a plains. Shanghai worker to hill to mine+road it. Last warrior in Beijing heads up to barbarian activity. Warrior defends against barb. Canton Settler->Spearman.
(78) 1075 BC - Warrior defeats barb horseman. Barb horseman right next to Xinjian down south. Nothing I can do about it at the moment. A warrior heads down to defend against future attacks. New settler heads to river hills by gold and Indian territory. Xinjian ransacked for 54g.
(79) 1050 BC - Canton worker starts road to Chengdu. Beijing Settler->Spearman.
(80) 1025 BC - Northern barbarian camp dispersed for 25g. Tsingtao worker starts road to Beijing. Beijing settler to spot near northern horses. Tsingtao Horseman->Horseman.

1025 BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q_theos_BC1025.zip)

Theos's turns 81-90
(81) 1000 BC - Shanghai has grown but is still stable. Tsingtao horseman heads south to find the southern barb camp.
(82) 975 BC - Found Tientsin W-W-W-N-N of Beijing and start a temple as it will contest borders with the Indian city of Karachi. We can now build the Forbidden Palace. Nanking Temple->Library for more culture.
(83) 950 BC - Xinjian worker heads for forest fur to road it. Beijing Spearman->Settler. Canton Spearman->Settler. Chengdu Worker->Temple as it is contesting borders with both York to the west and Canterbury to the east within my rightful territory.
(84) 925 BC - A bit worried about Indian warriors near Tientsin. Chengdu warrior to bonus grassland to mine it. Canton spearman to Tientsin for garrisoning. Massive barbarian uprising near Xinjian.
(85) 900 BC - Canton worker joins Chengdu worker to team up. They are mining bonus grassland by Chengdu. The barb camp south near Xinjian has had an uprising. Fortunately Canterbury is closer to it, so maybe they'll target that. Anyway investigating horsemen retreats. Hangchow Worker->Temple as it competes its borders with Isandhlwana.
(86) 875 BC - Hangchow worker to bonus grassland to mine+road it. Found Tatung N-N-N-N-N-N-N-N of Bejing and start building a Temple as it contests borders with Isanhlwana. Nanking grows its borders.
(87) 850 BC - Shanghai worker to spice forest north-west of Shanghai to road it. Chengdu/Canton worker team mine another bonus grassland. Shanghai completes the Great Library and starts a Settler. Indians cascade to Pyramids.
(88) 825 BC - Xinjian worker, having linked up the furs to its local town, starts a road to Tsingtao to link them to the rest of the nation. Techs from the Great Library: Iron Working+Mathematics+Philosophy+Code of Laws+Map Making+Polytheism+The Republic+Monarchy+Construction. With towns still to be built we hold off on the revolution. Beijing Settler->Worker. Tsingtao Horseman->Horseman. Shanghai grows its borders.
(89) 800 BC - Horses are now linked up to the capital. Horseman disperses barb camp in the south for 25g. One iron already in territory, but two are very close so it'll be worth building cities nearby. Tsingtao worker mines a grassland. Beijing settler east to iron by the east coast. C/C worker team to mine+road another bonus grassland shared by the two cities. Canton Settler->Templer.
(90) 775 BC - Canton settler heads south to surround Canterbury.

775 BC save (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q_theos_BC775.zip)

Revolution to begin next turn. Iron not linked up. Furs nearly linked to the capital. Only civ who has tech up on us is India who have Currency, plus potentially Middle Age techs.

I was gone most of the weekend and didn't see the post to put up the next round. I can't get them up there until tonight. Sorry about that. If mine are not included in the analysis for this round, i will underwstand. While we are on the subject, I will be camping with my son this weekend and so will be out of pocket from Friday until late Sunday. To avoid the missed post deadline, I can forward a report to someone to post for me and keep in good standing. Let me know if that will be needed.

Turn 90 Comments - 775 BC

I wanted to look at some of the 'key' years for the different
games - first contact with the "Eastern" civs, the year the player revolted out of Despotism (and number of turns anarchy), and the year the player entered the Middle Ages. It's too early to tell, but the upcoming key metric will be the year and tech where they go 4-turn research "for good". (Is cracker already there?!)


Year of- Year of - Year entered
Player - Contact- Revolt(An) - Middle Ages
Cracker- 1525BC - 1400BC (2) - 1200BC -
Charis - 1325BC - 825BC (7) - 1000BC -
Lee - >775?? - 1025BC (3) - 1000BC -
Hotrod - 1300BC - 1000BC (4) - 1000BC -
Jaxom - 1275BC - 1200BC (5) - 1275BC -
Borea - 1100BC - 1050BC (5) - 1100BC -
SJF - 1500BC - 1075BC (3) - 1075BC -
Swift - 1475BC - 1025BC (3) - 1475BC -
Theos - >750BC - 750BC (x) - >750BC - Great Library
No data yet on SteveArizona or Meldor.
Also, Stwils is using Lee's 1525BC save, with the above done.


Comments -
@Charis - why on earth wasn't I going max research after Currency?
I also see that in my game Republic came far after Mid Ages!?
@SJF - great job getting Map and exploring, earliest Greek contact
Cracker and Swift also did very well at this. I was slow getting
Map Making but got a ship out and found them ASAP once I did
@Cracker - 2 turns!?!?!? Ya bum ya! :) My seven feels especially painful
@Lee - have you not contacted the other continent, or did I miss the reporting of that (I don't think cracker's post was implying foreknowledge, just what everyone else knows at 775BC about how the civs got dispersed)

What's not clear from the comments alone is how close folks are
to getting permanent 4-turn research, a key factor in determining
launch date in a middle-diff space game. Cracker may already be
in this state? I've played ahead and know how long it took for me
to get there. The other factor is, will AI's be helpful and split
up researching, going counter to player, or will they follow him
like a gaggle of useless slugs??! (I know my answer to this one too 8-\ )

Cracker commented -
> Lost a turn to disorder in two towns due to pilot error and a barb galley on fish
> and the damned nuisance English scout being in the big damned middle of the road.
> (but I am a Peaceful Chinese leader unlike some of my peers. I wish there was a unit
> with the "Arrest and Deport" special ability.)

There is!! It's called... Rider!! :hammer:
Actually, "Marshall" would be a great unit :P

> 850BC - to war with Gandhi since he was so far behind in techs to be worthless
Ha!! Peaceful??! :lol:

Interesting actually - in one game India was TOP DOG on research, in
cracker's game, worthless, and in my game, middle of the pack, not at
all worthless (while he lived that is)

Charis

Originally posted by Charis
@Lee - have you not contacted the other continent, or did I miss the reporting of that (I don't think cracker's post was implying foreknowledge, just what everyone else knows at 775BC about how the civs got dispersed)


The other factor is, will AI's be helpful and split
up researching, going counter to player, or will they follow him
like a gaggle of useless slugs??!


I saw such an obscene amount of barb ships by port, that I didn't try the immediate galley build. :smoke: I never would have dreamed I would find all the other civs with just one or two moves of the galley. My mass contact turn was 690BC.


As for the AI being an "useless slug", they are continuing to help in my game. I did get a few middle ages techs from them. Of course, I am nowhere close to tech every 4 turns. The tech pace in this game is so absurdly fast, that I built Sun Tzu before the Pyramids were finished :crazyeye: What I find interesting is that DESPITE not finding the other continent, I hit Republic the same time as the rest of the pack except speed demon Cracker and Jaxom.

Originally posted by Charis
Quoting cracker:
> 850BC - to war with Gandhi since he was so far behind in techs to be worthless
Ha!! Peaceful??! :lol:

Interesting actually - in one game India was TOP DOG on research, in
cracker's game, worthless, and in my game, middle of the pack, not at
all worthless (while he lived that is)

Charis

In my game, Otto is also on food stamps and he is bizillions of miles away from any disparaging remarks from the Berkley, "tree huggin', save the whales, free the Taliban" crowd that might imply that imply undue Sino influence factors. ;)

I have played up to, and beyond turn 120. I was out of town all weekend, so did not have a chance to post my turns.

Expect my turns about 5:00pm MST (I don't have any access to my Civving stuff here at work).

Here are my last 10 turns for this round
1025bc-775bc


Before starting these last turns I check some things out:
I change entertainer in Beijing back to a citizen as we will get Library next turn
We ask Liz to trade currency to us for monotheism; she does
We start on Republic

1000bc
settler moves south toward furs
Beijing is on fire again! So I move luxury slider to 30%
workers in tientsin move south
Beijing now has Library/set to Temple
Tsingtao gets Temple/set to swordsman
Xinjian gets worker/set to spearman

975bc
(Order is restored in Beijing. I don't know why they get so disgruntled so often)
New worker in Xingian moves to wheat
Workers road in Tientsin
Settler moves one space south to another fur
Nanking gets Granary/set to worker

950bc
worker in Xingian mines wheat
2 workers in Canton move to bonus gl
settler builds Macau - in the snow

925bc
worker near Shanghai roads
workers near canton mine bonus gl
Tried to upgrade warriors to swordsmen. We can't. Not sure why
2 workers in Tientsin move to coast
Our treasury is running low. :(
I move science slider back to 40%

900bc
wworker in Tientsin moves to gl
2 workers in tientsin mine near coast
Nanking gets worker/set to settler
Tatung gets warrior/set to worker

875bc
canton workers road
worker near Tientsin mines
Xiajin worker roads wheat
Nanking worker moves to spices
Hangchow gets worker/ set to Spearman

850bc
Barb ship moves near Hangchow
worker there moves to bg. But keeps his eye on barb ship
2 workers move se toward Hangchow
2 workers on coast road
worker builds road on spices
Beijing has Temple/set to swordsman
Xinjian gets spearman/set to worker
Tientsin gets spearman/set to Library

825bc
workers move from coast to mountain/hill
2 workers mine near Hangchow
worker on coast mine
worker near Shanghai irrigates
worker moves from wheat to gl
spearman fortifies
swordsman fortifiesf
Chengdu gets warrior/ set to galley

800bc
Chengdu warrior fortifies - sees barb galley
Xinjian worker mines
We contact England, Am,india, and zulu - but none of them have anything we really want
2 workers mine the hill
Xinjian gets worker/set to granary

775bc
workers near Hangchow road

Footnote:

Remember these 3 rounds I have played and posted were based on Lee's 1525bc save.

It will be fun to see how my last 30 turns compare to his.;)

stwils

Oops. Save didn't go through. Will try again now.

The barb activity is amazing! I have my work cut out for me :lol:. The data should be interesting I will begin working on the data for this round tonight, probably after Steve posts.

@ stwils:

Tried to upgrade warriors to swordsmen. We can't. Not sure why :( ... Our treasury is running low.

I think you answered your own question, upgrading takes gold, IIRC 40 gold per warrior, also that warrior has to be in a city with iron hooked up and a barracks.

I will read all the reports more closely tonight. One quick observation: Jaxom I opened your game last night (it was the only one posted when I posted mine), making a b-line for education, You aren't even going to build Riders??? You really are a peace lover ;) arent' you???

Hotrod

Here's the turn reports and saves for my next 30 turns.


1500BC(61)

Tsingtao founded on coast E of Beijing, start temple. Beijing switched from spear to settler. India now has Phil, but keep research with it being due in 1.

1475BC(62)

Philosophy researched, start Republic. Shanghai riots, moved science slider up full checking research levels and forgot to reset lux tax, bad mistake that delays temple production and future spear factory. Philosophy is near worthless, but trade it for small sums + WM's to both America and England - may as well have them research something useful. Use cash to establish embassy with the Zulu. Can't persuade Shaka to part with Maths.

1450BC(63)

Shanghai builds temple, start archer for barb slaying. beijing builds settler, start settler. New settler heading between wheat and cow on river S of Beijing. Barb appears N of Shanghai, send spear to fortify on improvement. Barb near Tsingtao taken out by spear. English found Canterbury at northmost W choke. Will want to get a settler in the area asap.

1425BC(64)

Shanghai spear defends v barb. Camp spotted NE of city. Barb horse appears S of Tsingtao, spear retreats into city. This could be the start of uprising season and I plan to pump military out of Shanghai for the forseeable future.

1400BC(65)

Canton builds temple, start galley. Barb horse outside Tsingtao.

1375BC(66)

Shanghai completes archer (sent towards barb camp), start archer. Spear defeats barb horse.

1350BC(67)

Xinjian founded due S of Beijing near wheat, start spear. Shanghai borders expand to claim spice that was already roaded - the people are happy. Archer ready to attack barb camp next turn.

1325BC(68)

Beijing completes settler, start settler. Vet archer survives barb camp, just, and claims 25g. Switch Shanghai to spear. Establish Indian embassy, the last for now.

1300BC(69)

Canton border expands to claim iron hill. Shanghai builds spear, start sword.

1275BC(70)

Canton builds galley, start Colossus - with gold and iron hill could be a good Super Science City. Galley immediately spots light green borders that are reachable next turn. Looks like we're about to meet the Scientific civs.

1250BC(71)

Galley reaches Greek coastline and contact with Alex is established. Massive trading round ensues as follows:

Zulu. Maths + WM + 4g for contact with Greece.
Greece. Contact with Iroquois + TM for contact with other 3 civs on our continent. Note that he has Construction.
Iroquois. Construction + TM + contact with Babylon and Persia for Polytheism and 4 contacts as above. I decided with the close proximity of the landmasses that it would probably be better to trade these contacts early.
Babylon. Contact with Russia, WM + 10g for contacts as above.
Persia. No deal possible.
Russia. Monarchy, TM + contact with Germans for COL, MM, Phil + contacts. They were way behind in techs (they still don't have Maths) and I wanted them to catch up.
Germany. WM + 108g for Writing, Maths, Poly and contact with Persia. Another Sci civ way behind in tech and it's looking like nobody has Literature to trade. I'd hoped to avoid researching that.
England. WM + 25g for Maths.
Iroquois. WM + 108g for Monarchy.

With the gold traded embassies were established with Greece, Russia and the Iroquois.

At this stage only Currency is required before the next Age (and barbs). With Republic at max science due in 11, I decide to stick with being a despot for the time being - two periods of anarchy is one too much in this game. Only two Wonders (Colossus and Oracle) are being built at present, with the cascades that are sure to happen this will have to be watched closely to make sure I get the ones I want. The other question is how much land and how many cities are required for the Space Race. Assuming we fill our sub-continent we may not need that much more. Another priority is making sure the Scientific civs prosper just enough to help our research, it may be necessary to thin them out a little allowing 2 or 3 to expand more.

1225BC(72)

Chengdu founded W of Beijing, start spear.

1200BC(73)

Beijing build settler, start settler.

1175BC(74)

Shanghai sword complete, start sword.

1150BC(75)

Nanking builds temple, start barracks.

1125BC(76)

Galley sunk by barbs. Reg warrior upgraded to sword. Moving warrior through English lands. Liz is annoyed so hope she doesn't start anything.

1100BC(77)

Hangchow founded, start spear. Warrior got past OK, just one more on the wrong side. Barracks whipped in Nanking.

1075BC(78)

Nanking builds barracks, start spear. Vet warrior upgraded to sword.

1050BC(79)

Beijing builds settler, start settler. Upgrade another warrior. Diplomacy shows most civs now have Lit, Iroquois have Currency - as soon as that's traded it's barb time. Republic due in 1, nobody has it yet.

1025BC(80)

Republic researched, change governments and enter 3 turn period of anarchy. Decide to gamble a little and not trade this round. Would prefer established Republic before entering next age and am not looking to build libraries just yet. By the time TGL is built it will be almost obsolete.

1000BC(81)

Shanghai riots, entertainer hired. Increased barb activity. Conscript warrior promotes to reg N of Chengdu. Tech situation same as before, no one else has Currency yet.

975BC(82)

Oracle completed in Salamanca, cascade to Pyramids and TGL. Taxmen hired in Nanking and Beijing after growth.

950BC(83)

People's Republic of China formed. Spear defeats barb at Tsingtao. Barb horse appears S of Hangchow, still haven't found the camp yet. Camp spotted N of Chengdu.

925BC(84)

Worker killed outside Hangchow. Massive uprising at Chengdu camp, probably one in the S also. Tsingtao builds temple, start spear. Xinjian builds spear, start temple. Spear defeats barb horse at Hangchow. Currency now had by 3 civs, time to trade. Another warrior upgraded. Move settler pair away from barbs.

England. Currency, WM + 19g for Republic.
Germany. Literature, WM + 50g for Currency.
Greece. WM + 5g for Currency. Gift Lit.
Babylon. WM for Currency.
Russia. Monotheism for Rep, WM + 12g. ROP + 12g for ROP.
Persia. Gift Currency.
Zulu. Gift Currency + Lit.
America. WM + 5g for Currency.
India. Gift Lit.
England. Gift Lit.

Decided to give everybody Lit that didn't have it in the hope that they may actually build some libraries soon.
Science set at 60% with a small deficit, Theology in 11.

WM trading revealed the southern barb camp. Time for some barb action.

900BC(85)

Lose warrior and archer to barbs. Shanghai build sword, start sword. Chengdu builds spear, start spear.

875BC(86)

Hordes appear near Chengdu and Hangchow. York sacked. Tientsin founded near flood plains, start spear. Beijing builds settler, start spear. Vet sword defeats horse at Chengdu.

850BC(87)

Spear at Chengdu promotes to elite taking out several barb horse before it and the warrior lose. Chengdu sacked, Citizen + 17g lost. Sword takes out last horse near Chengdu. Vet sword>elite, 2 vet spear>elite and reg spear>vet at Hangchow. 2 swords sent towards camp.
Nanking spear built, start court. Chengdu walls, start spear. Hangchow walls, temple.

825BC(88)

Swords in Tientsin defend v barbs, 1 promotes to elite. Shanghai builds sword, start sword. Beijing switched to temple, Tsingtao to library. 2 swords head to Chengdu camp.

800BC(89)



775BC(90)

Swords move into position at both camps. Nanking switches to library, Shanghai to settler.




zenga 1275bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-zenga-1275BC.zip)

zenga 1025bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-zenga-1025BC.zip)

zenga 775bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-zenga-775BC.zip)

I just looked at Zenga's log. (I read his as it came right after I had finished posting mine, and I didn't feel it could contaminate my playing my 30 turns - as they were already played. His is the only one I have read.)

AND - I was amazed that he now is in contact with Greece, Russia, Persia, Germany,Babylon, and the Iroquois in addition to the 4 on our continent.

His galley went carefully - not sinking - and arrived on the Greek coast.

My galley sank! ^%$^%#$ And I did not get around to starting on another one until much later.

I was just amazed at how quickly he got in contact with all of these civs and started trading.:crazyeye:

stwils

Charis:

My contact date was three turns after 1500. On 1475, I saw land; on 1450, I saw green border; and on 1425, I contacted the Green People (Greeks). Sorry if the report was confusing.

BTW, I'm not even close to 4-turn research. It's more like 10 turn research at -10 gpt :lol:.



stwils:


I change entertainer in Beijing back to a citizen as we will get Library next turn....
...Beijing is on fire again! So I move luxury slider to 30%

First of all, good job moving the luxury slider instead of hiring an entertainer in Beijing, but on the previous turn, you must remember that library provides culture, not happiness (personally, I could be made happy with a library, but I don't think the same could be said about the world's population in general :) )

The thing that determines if a city will riot or not, is the faces of your citizens from either the city screen or the F1 screen. If you look closely at the faces, or hover your mouse over them, you will see that there are three types of faces. The happy ones on the left, the content ones in the middle, and the unhappy ones on right. The three groups are separated by a slight bit of space. On any given turn, if one of your city has more unhappy faces than happy faces, then that city will riot on the NEXT turn. That how you can tell if a city will riot.

The way I do it is on the F1 screen, I do a quick skim through my citizen lineup, to see if their formation is "balanced". If there are more people to the left than to the right, then we're okay. If one city has more citizen on the right-hand side than the left (it usually stands out, since most cities are happy), then it needs fixing. As you adjust the lux slider on the F1 screen, you can see the citizen faces changing.

On a side note, when you hire an entertainer in the city screen, you can click on the face of the entertainer to change him/her to a taxman or a scientist. You can see the face of your citizens changing as you do this. In many cases, a taxman is enough to make your city happy (you can tell by couting the happy/unhappy faces). The benefit of a taxman is that you get 1 gold per turn over an entertainer.

Originally posted by LKendter

The tech pace in this game is so absurdly fast, that I built Sun Tzu before the Pyramids were finished :crazyeye:


Here is one my notes from the late stage of the game:
deleted year Babylon builds Bach, many cascade, I will have Smith and Newton next turn...

I get both wonders, Russia gets the Great Lighthouse killing the cascade that was ongoing since the Ancient Times. This you will not see often, Magellan was built 10 turns before the Lighthouse :)


Originally posted by Hot0823
One quick observation: Jaxom I opened your game last night (it was the only one posted when I posted mine), making a b-line for education, You aren't even going to build Riders??? You really are a peace lover arent' you???


Here is one of my note from a latter stage of the game:
deleted year We discover Steam Power. Oops, I still have no iron connected, so no rails yet.


The troops you see there is all I have until Replaceable Parts. One lucky spearman was upgraded to Musketman then to Rifleman, just to let the AI know I was at that stage.

@Charis: I am not at 4 turns yet, not even after the next 30 turns, but I do get 8 more techs in the next 30 turns, so I am, sort of, at 4 turns per tech.

WoW, you don't have to say but did your city base grow much. I know myself that I am starting to run out of space. To get much bigger war may be come inevetiable.

Apperently Jaxom your neighbors respect your space. Mine started a completely unprovocted war. America attacked with 3 warriors and pulled England in just for the heck of it. It helped that they were already furious from our previous entanglement, again not started by me.

I can't wait to see this all playout.

Hotrod

Originally posted by stwils (edited)
I just looked at Zenga's log and I was amazed that he now is in contact with Greece, Russia, Persia, Germany,Babylon, and the Iroquois in addition to the 4 on our continent.

His galley went carefully - not sinking - and arrived on the Greek coast.

My galley sank! ^%$^%#$ And I did not get around to starting on another one until much later.

I was just amazed at how quickly he got in contact with all of these civs and started trading.:crazyeye:

stwils

stwils, here are some pointers on how I gained contact with the galley.

1. Check the map size. This map is non-standard with only 40% water (stated in one of the opening posts in the thread), meaning that the other civs were always likely to be fairly close. This may also determine whether it is worthwhile to build the Great Lighthouse.

2. Move your galley 1 tile at a time to expose more of the map, this allowed me to spot the borders of another civ quickly.

3. ALWAYS end your move with the galley on a COAST tile (unless you have the GLH). If you are on a SEA tile the galley has a chance of sinking.

Hope this helps. By the way, my galley was sunk by barbs a couple of turns later but it had already done it's main job.:)

zenga

More on tech insanity.

<Hidden year> (I) Theology completes, heading for Education.
<the very next turn> (I) The Great Library completed by England, which is almost obsolete already.

Originally posted by zenga


1. Check the map size. This map is non-standard with only 40% water (stated in one of the opening posts in the thread), meaning that the other civs were always likely to be fairly close. This may also determine whether it is worthwhile to build the Great Lighthouse.

zenga

And I have already started building the Great Lighthouse.:ack: :ack: :ack:

stwils

As promised, my next 30 turns...

NB: Upload facility is not working. I have had to attach these files...

(61) 1500BC
The Zulu start the Great Library.
Xinjan founded. Harbor ordered.
Chengdu founded next to cow and spices. Temple ordered.
Beijing builds horseman, starts spearman.

(62) 1475BC
Horseman moves to cover a worker who is being threatened by a barbarian across the river.
Our horsie is attacked by a barbarian warrior and a horseman, promoting to elite, but ending up in the red.

(63) 1450BC
Worker roads iron, but is threatened by a barbarian. He is moved to safety.
England has currency, I wait for it to be traded around.

(64) 1425BC
Beijing reaches population 5, luxuries to 20%.
Barbarians pillage our iron road.
Beijing builds spearman, starts settler.
Shanghai builds spearman, starts settler.
Nanking builds temple, starts settler.

(65) 1400BC
Shanghai spearman fortifies.
Beijing spearman fortifies. Luxuries to 10%.
An elite warrior is killed attacking a conscript barbarian horsie. Ugh!
Canton build changed to warrior, due to the barbarian problem.
Currency is still only in the hands of the English.
Canton completes warrior, goes back to worker factory duties.

(66) 1375BC
America and India now have Currency. England and India also have Construction.
We buy Construction from India for 180 gold.
We sell Construction to America for Currency and 30 gold.
India exchanges World Maps.

(67) 1350BC
Our elite horsie has healed and heads towards a barbarian camp.
Luxuries to 20% as Beijing grows to 6.
A barbarian horsie impales itself on our horsie, but drops us to 2 health.

(68) 1325BC
Once again our horsie is forced to fortify and heal.
I sell Currency to the Zulu for 25 gold and their World Map.
A second barbarian horsie attacks and we lose our elite horsie.
Beijing builds settler, starts spearman.

(69) 1300BC
Drop luxuries to 10%.
Settler heads North with a spearman escort.
I watch as a zulu archer disperses a barbarian camp.
India begins the Great Library.

(70) 1275BC
I go ahead and found some embassies.
England - 36 gold - Building the Oracle, 6 citizens, one entertainer, 8 shields per turn.
America - 52 gold - Building a settler, 2 citizens, 3 shields per turn. The settler is complete, but the city hasn't grown :lol:
India - 36 gold - Building a settler, 2 citizens, 3 shields per turn. As for America, the settler is complete, but the city hasn't grown.
Zululand - 41 gold - Building the Great Library at a blistering 4 shields per turn (82 turns to completion).
I think Soren needs to take a look at the AI settler before size 3 syndrome, it's a big waste of shields.
I send a spearman from Shanghai to Nanking to guard against 2 barbarian horsies that are heading that way.
Luxuries to 20% as Beijing grows again.

(71) 1250BC
Several things complete, including two settlers.
Two barbarian horses outside Nanking are attacked by a spearman and a warrior. Result: two dead barbarian horsies.
Exchange World Maps with England.
Beijing builds a spearman, starts settler.

(72) 1225BC
A massive barbarian uprising is reported near Canton.

(73) 1200BC
Hangchow is founded on top of spices. A temple is ordered.
A warrior takes out another barbarian horsie next to Nanking, and promotes to veteran.
I look for tech trades, as a barbarian uprising is triggered by two civs entering a new age. I find that England and India have polytheism available. India offers the best price - I spend down my entire treasury of 87 gold and 1 gold/turn to buy it. Spending down the treasury limits the amount of gold that can be pillaged by barbarians.
I watch as a heroic zulu archer takes out 5 or 6 barbarian horsemen before dying.

(74) 1175BC
Tientsin founded. Warrior ordered.
I hold off on selling Polytheism to America and Zululand - at least until the barbarian uprising has passed.
Beijing builds another settler. Spearman ordered.

(75) 1150BC
I watch as 11 barbarian horsies defeat the lone spearman at Hangchow and pillage all of 15 gold.

(76) 1125BC
Another barbarian horsie is killed outside Nanking.

(77) 1100BC
Lots of barbarian horsies appear around Nanking.
The two spearmen in Nanking hold off against what must've been 15 barbarian horsies. Only one remains after the onslaught.

(78) 1075BC
I sell Polytheism to America for their entire treasury of 54 gold and their World Map.

(79) 1050BC
Two barbarian horsies are hilled near Shanghai before they can pillage. Only a settler is left in the city - he is moved to Xinjan for safety.

(80) 1025BC
I change a few builds before saving the game.

(81) 1000BC
(82) 975BC
America has the Republic. He won't sell it though.

(83) 950BC
(84) 925BC
One of the two annoying barbarian camps is finally dispersed by our spearman, who promotes to elite.
England completes the Oracle.
England and India start the Great Library.
India starts the Pyramids.

(85) 900BC
The second annoying barbarian camp is destroyed.
I accidentally move a settler next to a barbarian camp. He gets killed.

(86) 875BC
I buy Republic from Lincoln for 353 gold + 18 gold per turn.
Republic to Lizzie for 252 gold. She's still annoyed and has troops in our land. I sense a sneak-attack coming on.

(87) 850BC
(88) 825BC
Macao founded. Warrior ordered.
I send our civ into revolt, and draw 7 turns of anarchy. Ugh!
Scroll through cities to prevent disorder.

(89) 800BC
Another barbarian camp is dispersed.

(90) 775BC
Seems like everyone has acquired Monarchy and Monotheism. I'll delay trading until we are a Republic.

(61-70)
Swap Math to Gandi for Col and 25g
Lose elite warrior to barbs, but get one elite spear and one vet out of the deal.

(71-80)
No more loses to barbs, got a warrior vet promotion and 25g.
Trade Poly around for cash, WM and Construction.

(81-90)
Get raped by two barb uprising, costing 150g it also cost one elite spear and one vet spear. I made 50g from camps. Made contact with Greece on last turn. This allowed me to clean out the rest of the world's gold and get into the tech lead.

Meldor 1275 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/)Q1_Meldor_BC1275.zip) Meldor 1025 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/)Q1_Meldor_BC1025.zip) Meldor 775 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/)Q1_Meldor_BC775.zip)

Sorry for the short report, I didn't want to hold things up any more than I had.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_happy_BC0775.jpg

Lux is the number of luxuries currently connected to the capitol while New is the number added in this round. Imp is the number of luxuries imported.

A red background in Lux Tax means I had to raise the slider to avoid disorder on the next turn. I will not try to guess what the player would do in that case, I will just raise the slider until all cities are happy enough to avoid disorder. An orange background is the other way around, I was able to lower the slider and still keep all cities happy.

# spec. is the total number of specialists (slackers :p) in the empire. A green background indicates a minimum science gambit in progress, meaning at least one of the specialist is not a slacker.

Total comm. is the amount of commerce generated by cities on the Domestic Advisor screen, excluding any other type of income. Expenses lists various expenses, from the same screen, in this format: entertainment/corruption/maintenance/unit cost. Ratio is income divided by commerce, somewhat measuring the efficiency of the empire in the context of the fastest space ship launch strategy.

Top cities list happiness factors in the top 2 cities in the following format: happy pop/content pop/unhappy pop:Military Police-Luxury resource happiness-Building Happiness.

Borealis: A reasonable balance of commerce/production and 2 luxuries will eventually be added when the borders expand. However, due to the low funds available, it is unlikely either of them will come online in the next 20 turns, unless she manages to get some golds from the AI. On the plus side, a marketplace will be built in the next 5 turns in the biggest city, helping with both the happiness issue and the slight cash flow problem.

Charis: What can I say? Genghis Charis can barely keep is troops in check, no wonder his empire is in Anarchy. :p This however illustrates the cost of a revolution, 0 income, 0 happiness from luxury tax and slackers all over the place, sometimes creating a food deficit. The timing of a revolution is crucial, make sure you have a cash reserve big enough to cover 8 turns of GPT payment. Don't start a revolution if you are about to discover a new tech, the 8 turns delay may make you miss a trading opportunity. If you can connect a luxury in a few turns and have a couple of big towns, it may be worth waiting. Charis has almost a 1000 golds on hands with no GPT payment. He will discover Monarchy in 2 turns, but since it was a single scientist gambit, the gambit can continue while in anarchy. With one luxury connected and no other to connect in the next few turns, he is able to balance happiness in any size 6 towns. There are 2 luxuries connected to his road network but outside of his cultural boundary. It will take about 10 turns to bring them online if a cultural building is rushed right after the anarchy. The question is, what will the anarchy lead to?

Cracker: What can be said here? No new luxury for this round, but a marketplace that helps with both happiness and commerce. It seems unlikely that another luxury will be added in the next 10 turns. Other than that, he is way ahead everybody else at this point. It's almost as if he has an extra city on everyone. Oh wait, he does have an extra city. :rolleyes:

Hotrod: 2 specialists in size 1 towns with English names, somebody whipped them hard, probably Elizabeth. One of them is a clown, he could be doing something more useful. A british clown is not the most fun thing to watch. :p Many size 4 towns, with 10% luxury tax they cannot be any bigger without a temple. One city is blowing smoke in 775 BC but since it is a very corrupt city, the loss was minimal. Only one luxury will be connected in the next 10 turns, allowing 0% tax at size 4 or 10% tax at size 5.

Jaxom: Many size 1 towns, 2 big cities. The size 8 city will grow in 2 turns, requiring 20% lux tax to keep happy unless a marketplace is built. This guy is wasting his commerce, I hope he knows what he is doing. ;) A settler is about to claim a 4th luxury but it will require 29 worker-turns to be connected. A pair of workers seems to be on their way to the perilous ledge leading to the gems. Note that one of his luxury was stolen from Elizabeth by overwhelming her with Chinese culture.

LKendter: Many size 5 towns and 1 size 9 city without a temple, with a single luxury online a 30% luxury tax is needed to keep the city in order. The city can grow to size 10 for the same price and will do so in 1 turn. This is a good example of converting commerce to shield. A wonder cannot be cash-rushed but by investing commerce in entertainment, the city has more productive citizens, thus more shields per turn. By spending about 400 commerce over 20 turns, the wonder will complete a couple of turns earlier. This may seem like a lot of commerce for a couple of turns, but if he snatches the wonder in the nick of time, it is a small price to pay. A second luxury would be a major boon by cutting the commerce price in half, a worker seems to be on that task but it will take at least 11 worker/turns to connect the 2nd luxury to the capitol.

Meldor: Now new luxury added this round, but a settler pair is on its way to claim the fur patch and should have one more luxury connected in the next 20 turns. With 2 luxuries and no cities above size 4, Meldor as no happiness problems. His commerce is a little low compared to others but he is in good shape to switch to republic whenever he chooses to.

SJF: Relatively even distribution of population, with 2 luxury connected and 10% luxury tax, he is good for size 6 towns even without a temple. The seemingly high cost of 10 for entertainment is more than covered by the increased overall commerce. A third luxury is connected to a road and is 13 worker/turns away from connecting to the capitol, that is if the borders expand by then. Ah, Liz settled the fur city in the exact same spot I took in my game. Since Liz stole most of his furs, SJF stole Gandhi's furs. I fear this might degenerate into a furball. :)

Steve: Not much to say when in anarchy. The red background in # spec. indicates I had to add some specialist in a couple of cities to avoid disorder on the next turn. As for luxuries, he has one connected and a settler pair is near the fur patch, so he should get a 2nd luxury in the next 20 turns, if not the next 10.

Stwils: Luxury tax was 30%, wasting 6 commerce per turn on happiness. A 2nd luxury is connected to a city but not to the capitol and there are no workers currently working to connect it. If it was connected, another 3 commerce per turn could be saved, giving a net income of 37 with 0.51 efficiency. With sufficient MP in all cities and the 2nd luxury connected there would be no need for luxury tax, removing 2 turns from the current research on the Republic. However, there is a barb camp near that 2nd luxury, it could be that the barbs ate the worker around there.

Swiftsure: His actual luxury tax is 10%, I would have to raise it to 60% to make one of the city happy, so instead I simply consider it will go in disorder on the next turn, loosing the single commerce it contributes. One luxury connected, one with a worker clearing a jungle nearby, and one about 14 worker/turns away. The worker in the jungle still need 5 turns to complete his task before he can move to connect the luxury, thus costing a bit over 30 commerce at the current rate. When these 2 luxuries are connected, he will be set for size 7 cities with temple and no luxury tax.

Theos: He has the lowest income of the bunch, due to his size 8 city without any luxury support. However, that city recently completed the Great Library, which should more than pay back the commerce lost to happiness. A worker is building a road on one luxury, due in 2 turns, and another is working on a 2nd luxury and is likely to get it connect within the next 10 turns. With these 2 luxuries online and the settler coming out of the size 8 city, Theos commerce should start to pick up soon.

Zenga: With the biggest city building a settler, he is probably switching between 10% and 20% and the city size change. A 2nd luxury would allow a flat 10% luxury tax and there is one to be connected when the nearby town expand its border. That is unlikely to happen in the next 10 turns, thus costing him about 50 commerce over the next 10 turns.

As an exercise, I took my game in 775 BC and revolted back to despotism, without changing anything else. As you can see, being a Republic without buildings to multiply your commerce result in much lower income. On the other hand, my size 8 city is producing 13SPT, after corruption in republic instead of 8 in despotism. Republic provides the mean to rush buildings with cash, usually faster than can be rushed with pop under depostism. If this was a scientific civ, I would have pop-rushed the libraries before revolting. I wanted to do the same thing with Cracker's game but I can't handle his save file. So instead I burned all his libraries and marketplaces, the second line is the result, while the 3rd line is with free Shanghai factored out. The higher commerce he has is most likely due to his very dense build.

LKendter: By spending about 400 commerce over 20 turns, the wonder will complete a couple of turns earlier. This may seem like a lot of commerce for a couple of turns, but if he snatches the wonder in the nick of time, it is a small price to pay.


FYI
<Year deleted> (I) Sun Tzu completes in Beijing.
Athens completes the Pyramids.
Zimbabwe completes the great wall.

Nice table Jaxom :P

I saw the slacker count and had a cow, then realized you were plotting me in anarchy. Clearly the year was picked so as to sling mud at the glorious liberators of the Genghis!!! btw, you noticed my 1K bankroll, non-negative income, and I bet that miserliness costs some turns into space. (Or but the barb uprising horsies into space first!)

Year deleted Industrial era wonder due in 4 turns, the Great Lighthouse is completed in somewhere and the turn it arrives it's already expired

Ya, things are movin' ! I think too the Great Library was built pre-expired or within 5 turns of it, and I'm sure the Oracle was expired on building. The only thing worse would be a pre-expired Colossus!

The other items needed in the next table compiled are...
number of foreign workers, total number of cities, and (cough) the number of civs remaining.

Charis

Well number of workers and cities are on Cracker's table.

Now, why would there be less than 11 civs remaining? Oh no! Don't tell me you gave your China away!

To all the players in the game. The comments I made about each players may be things you already know, but I thought it would help less experienced players to understand the reasoning behind various actions. Feel free to expand on my thoughts, and even set me right where I have it wrong.

(cough) the number of civs remaining.
Hmmm...
<year deleted> A little bit earlier then planned, but England is trying to hook up Saltpeter - WAR.
Our first rider wins his battle. Our GOLDEN AGE has begun.
<year deleted> Well England is technically alive, as they snuck one city on the other continent :lol:

Zenga: With the biggest city building a settler, he is probably switching between 10% and 20% and the city size change.

Spot on. Normally, I like to keep cities from growing too large early on (unless completing a Wonder) to avoid unnecessary lux tax. In this case the city was kept large to pump military for a while and meet the barb uprising.

A 2nd luxury would allow a flat 10% luxury tax and there is one to be connected when the nearby town expand its border. That is unlikely to happen in the next 10 turns, thus costing him about 50 commerce over the next 10 turns.

Hey, I'm working on it! Good table, Jaxom. :goodjob:


On the subject of Wonders:

From Charis -

Year deleted Industrial era wonder due in 4 turns, the Great Lighthouse is completed in somewhere and the turn it arrives it's already expired

Ya, things are movin' ! I think too the Great Library was built pre-expired or within 5 turns of it, and I'm sure the Oracle was expired on building. The only thing worse would be a pre-expired Colossus!

The only sure way round this is to build Wonders that don't expire, or at least have a long duration. With the tech pace in this game the Colossus is possibly the most important of those - I hope so, since I'll have it built soon!:lol:

zenga

Hey all, Lurking as usual.

I was reading through the FAQ list when I came across mydisease's technology calculation thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=29485) . This got me thinking about this game.

Originally posted by mydisease
Research Cost = DOWN{MM/CF * [COST - UP.1(COST*N/DOWN(CL*1.75))]} - Research done so far

Research Cost and research done so far are in gold.

Down Arrow or DOWN() means round down the figure inside the brackets to the next integer.
Up Arrow.1 or UP.1() means round up the figure inside the brackets to the next decimal of .1 ending(can some mathematician tell me how to say that better?)

MM = map modifier(tech rate on world sizes tab in the editor)
Tiny 160
Small 200
Standard 240
Large 320
Huge 400

but Cracker said in his 2nd post:

Understanding the Map Configuration
The map size tech research rate is set to 120 to correspond to the tech research pace of a standard sized map even though this map is squeezed to fit inside a small outline.


If both statements are correct, doesn't that mean that techs are 1/2 price? Tech rate should be twice as fast as Cracker intended. The smaller the "tech rate" the CHEAPER the tech! (Should be called Tech Cost instead of Rate?)

Now I know why I have soo much more trouble playing Emperor, and find Monarch a challenge. Little things that Jaxom pointed out in the table are the reasons I find myself lagging behind. Thank you for pointing out why my size 4 cities need temples. A few distractions (War with England twice, and America) and I lose focus on infrastructure.

I have almost completed my barb data and will have something to post tonight. I primarily got my information from the reports so read it over and point out any discrepancies or missed facts.

All I can say now is that barbs are a 2 edged sword. Camps are great when you kill them bad when you don't. Is avoiding camps with strategically placed units the answer? Find out later.

Hotrod

I can see that the entire player field is uploaded and up to date.

I am traveling and in meetings until later today but will try to have the data tables and graphic results up by late this evening or early Wednesday depending on where you are in the world.

@ cracker: this is the next to last scheduled round but do you anticipate this game continuing to completion? I realized that many , Lee & Jaxom , have played ahead and perhaps have even finished. I have only played 10 more turns and working on the next 20 tonight following your charts.

My concern in playing too far ahead was getting left in the dust only to have to pickup some other game to move forward. That being said am I getting smoked :crazyeye: ?? I really would like to see this game played to completion. Maybe not with this level of detail, discussion and analysis but completion none the less.

Hotrod

Hotrod, your size 4 cities don't necessarly need a temple. A temple only makes one unhappy citizen content. In some instance, this is not enough to allow for one more citizen in the city. What you need is luxury resources. If that game was on deity, or even emperor, the fur patch would have been my 2nd priority, as luxuries are also a good trading tools to buy tech. At this level, it wasn't a high priority since there are many ways to get a couple of the furs for yourself even if an AI settles in the area.

I think you are doing ok in this game, I believe you have the second highest city count at this point and you have a reasonable layout. Don't get distracted by wars unless you have a specific objective. If you are going to fight Liz, then at least destroy or capture York and claim the wines for yourself. If you don't plan on making a temple in Shanghai anytime soon, it may be worth it to spend a worker to connect one of the spices via a colony. You are not getting smoked, improve the strong core you have and results will pour in. :)

Charis, you were wondering about Jaxom's strategy before. No Rider upgrades for him, he has his eyes on the prize! What's the VC for this map? It's not domination...

Zed, indeed, he is a clever guy, even for a treehugger!!

(Shhhh.... don't tell anyone, but... I've got my eye the prize too, and did NOT research chivalry either! Don't tell anyone or they'll laugh me out of the Warmonger's guild! But on this difficulty, with the stated VC, Chivalry is a poor choice unless you're short on space)

BTW, I confused a comment by meldor (??) along the lines of "wait and you'll see my plan", attributing it to Jaxom and then assuming it was a rider blitz. Weed analysis :P

Charis

Aye Aye!

Confused with somebody else? Nah, it was a feeble attempt of the Genghis clan to slander the good name of the Ming dynasty. Go back to your plateau Genghis, and stand in awe of the Ming's ingenuity!

I love the riders, if the prize was different I would be getting ready to launch a massive rider expansion program. Shaka, Liz, Gandhi and Lincoln would soon be minor officials in the glorious Chinese empire. As it stands now, I let their cute little civilization live to witness the marvelous future of the empire.

Well I didn't research Chivalry.
:satan: I got it from England for 2 luxuries. I needed more then 20 turns to build a few riders. I then proceded to take out England in just 12 turns with a rider stack, enjoying a nice GA. :satan:

Let's just say my empire has been improved.


I know someone asked if 4 turn rate was possible -
<year deleted> Thanks to FP and the new English possessions - 4 turn research rate for steel [dance]

Here are a couple of spreadsheet images that try to capture the barb activity over the first 90 turns:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/barbs_round3.3.JPG

This data was compiled based on the reports and tabulated to the best of my ability to capture what happend with barbs during the last 3 round.

The following chart is a quick "quantitative" evaluation of the barb attivity and the overall effect on the QSC score. This is solely based on the hard cost for units, gold and population.

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/barbs_costs1_9.3.JPG

It is interesting to note that the cost of barbs can go either direction. They can be a cheap source of cash :D or a source of nonstop misery :mad:. This chart is only a guide but gives a snapshot of how different approaches to barb activity can effect this stage of the game. How a player treats barbs, plans for barb attacks or uses existing forces to parole for barbs can have an immediate effect on the QSC score. How this "cost or benefit" plays our remains to be seen.

Hotrod

Here is some information on how the barbs were handled by individual players:

Stwils: got ransacked and pillage multiple times.

SJF: Lost a settler. Had iron pillaged.

Cracker: Pulled military back to protect the frontier from barb camps.
Shut research down because there were many barb camps ready to explode at
the era change. The barbs go for Lizzy and Shaka instead

Lee: lost population again, delayed contact with other continent
because of barb galleys.

Swift: Either very luck or very good, no barb activity reported

charis: Galley was ambushed, zone defense worked sort of, lost 85 gold
to
ransacking barbs. With more uprising on the way.

Jaxom: Spends his gold on embassies rather than lose it to barbs. No
barb killings, pop loses or lost gold! He was at zero before the uprisings
began and moved all MPs out of the cities. Interesting choices, any
comments?? Began Theo at min science to generate cash for many many cash only rushes.

Hotrod: Got Hut barbs, pillaging 62 gold during the uprising. Lost another
11 gold to barbs, should've bought embassies, next turn formed 4. :).
Lost an full health elite warrior to conscript warrior on a camp :(.

Borealis: Lost worker improvements, she survived the barb attacks with
some help of a nearby English city :).

Zenga: started building archer just for barb hunting and a marketed
shift toward military in prep for inevitable uprising, various upgrades and
baracks built. Lost galley to barbs.

Steve: Moved worker away from barbs. Barb pillage iron. Shifted production to warrior in Canton because of barbs.


Hotrod

Hotrod, I forgot to note in my report that I later dispersed both camps responsible for the uprising. One of them was halfway between an English town and one of mine, all 16 horses came to my town, which was defended by a single regular warrior. :( I lost 5 shields worth of production on that attack. The other city was also facing 16 horses, had just built a worker and was size 1 with no shields accumulated. It was defended by a single regular spear that I couldn't replace soon, hence the reason of the strategic pull back.

Some people are getting awfully rich on the poor barbs back, maybe they should start a business? Rent-a-Merc to solve all your pesky barbaric troubles. :)

Just looking at the overall effect of the barbs on QSC score it appears that Crackers method of "partroling for barbs" was the most effective. By dedicating fast moving horses to barb detail cracker was able to effectively utilize barb huts for treasury generation and subsequently kill the barb threat on the local cities very quickly thus reducing the possibilty of barb attack on population, garrissoned units or city improvements.

Getting 25 gold by killing a poorly defended barb camp is a like a 10-20% bonus of gold. It allows rapid growth in city improvements (through rush builds) or a quickened tech pace allowing research to be increased due to the extra gold available. As shown above Cracker and SJF were the best at using the barbs to there advantage.

From the data above the pack(ie the rest of us) used the barb camps to maintain the status quo. Most of the cash generated through camp dispersal was either lost in the form of killed units or actually taken back by pillaging barbs.

Possibly of more importance are the other costs associated with the barb activity. Theos move toward military units and barracks: Did this shift slow the push for libraries and new technology?

Lee lost population and at this stage the cost of 2 citizens quite possibly be more than just the 40 points. What about the lost shields and commerce from that worker? Not to mention the delayed contact because of barb galleys.

Many had iron pillaged. Even with industrious workers getting new roads will take many worker turns costing the civ the ability to build advanced units such as swordsmen or riders, not to mention the extra shields if it was mined or the extra commerce.

Here are some important things I noticed in reading all about the barbs:

* Barbs must be prepared for and dealt with or they can be very costly, not just in lost gold or units.

* Don't just wait for barbs to come. Be proactive, use horses with 2 attack and 2 movement to disperse camps quickly and efficiently. By allowing camps to form then seeking them out barb camps can be a very effective tool to increase cash flow.

* Use the tech pacing to allow the player to prepare for massive uprisings. It seems to me a few players knew extactly when the uprisings were coming and were ready, they depleated gold, moved units effectively to minimize the uprising effect.

Hotrod

I am sure there are more issues that can be discussed.

Hotrod,

You just officially graduated to the next level. No longer will we be spotting you a unit or two or a short stack of gold to compensate for the fact you do not know about the barb cash cow.

barb farming is a specialty that takes a little practice but can really help things out in the intermediate period before expansion fully fills the world.

If you look at my net available income per turn in Jaxom's table you can see that the number was 93gpt. The 275 gold from 11 barb camps during the previous 10 turn period was like giving my civ almost a 30% increase in commerce for each turn (actually I had just comp out of despotism and anarchy so the percent impact was even greater).

Also the total gold earned at 275 was equivalently equal to 3 full turns of the total available commerce from my Chinese empire. At least 3 more turns of margin for higher tech research expenses at a higher than normal rate that would drive a deficit in our economy.

Great work on the analysis and data :goodjob:

(my pieces will be available shortly. :crazyeye: )

Hotrod, thanks for the effort in producing that nice table. (Kudos to all doing similar tables or graphs - interesting stuff!)

cracker - I look forward to your post and to the next set. I certainly hope you're planning to go forward to launch! Speaking of which... (and speaking of fast tech pace)... how often do you get to use Manhattan as a placeholder for the last component?? (Almost got to use Suffrage for that :P ) My game completion was quite interesting, and I'm dying to see how a few key issues played out in other games. (For example, did the treehuggers have to contend with large swarms of irritators?) Others have expressed definite interest in seeing this to completion - any thoughts on how to do this? Set a date for folks to post summaries of action from last QSC turn to their launch?

If so, I would suggest/ask that such summaries include the following:
- Year of... FP, GA, entering Industrial Era, entering Modern, launch
- When you reached 'consistent' 4-turn research (year and tech),
and how many non-optional techs you got from AI's in Industrial and Modern Era (total)
- Final treasury and income
- Final number of cities and foreign workers
- What optional techs did you research yourself?
- What tech you're researching at last QSC report and how long til it's complete?
If folks provide this, I would volunteer to tabulate!

Charis

My apologies again for having my time schedule get in the way of getting these support graphics up for your to use.

Here is the power progression graph for all players through 775bc

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_power_bc775.jpg

Note that stwils has cloned herself and appears as stwils++ for the turns continued from Lee's 1526bc save. (Apologies for the pink to gray color contrast but we are pushing the available color differences for highly compressed images).

theos has also reappeared as the red line of date since I asked zenga to fill in and pick up from the theos save file for turn 30. The data for the intermediate turns for theos (40,50,60) is interpolated from his actual scores for turns 30 and turns 70. All theos data for turns 70, 80, 90 reflects actual values extracted from the uploaded save files.

Here is the data table to reflect all game positions current as of 775bc: (note that this table is getting large at 63kb since we are keeping the tech data fully exposed to display how the techs are acquired by different players).

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_0775bc_table.gif

The best way to view this table is actually to right click on the image file and save it to your harddrive and then open it in a seperate window that will let you page back to view turns reports and other data while the table can be toggled into your view.

Several highlights to note in the table:

1) yellow boxes in the units area are intended to highlight casualties that I think occured.
2) orange boxes for galleys indicate areas that are having a negative impact on the progress of the games of these players at this point in time. We shall see if these shortcomings heal themselves.
3) the light blue boxes in the tech areas are techs that the player has but that I did not pick up a method for classifying how the tech was acquired.
4) the green boxes in theos's column are techs he got out of the Great Library gambit.

---------

Ghengis "we don't need no stinkin' embassies and workers are for wimps" Charis is definately robbing all the credit unions to build a stash of cash since he is running out of victims to whack. We can also see evidence that his Chinese people may be elitest slackers who do not know how to work industriously, preferring instead to rely on the poor unfortunate slave/immigrants from the oppressed neighbors of the Chinese hordes.

I did not pull graphics to display this comparison but found it interesting to look at the population distributions in the towns in some players games. Hotrod's game in 1275bc is almost perfectly balanced with most towns oscillating to 2-3-4 pop range and other players have a few big cities while most towns languish in the 1-2 range.

Jaxom's version of the Chinese Civilization earns the distinction of being the second China to begin to appreciate the value of learning and enhance commerce for the civilian population.

theos earns the honor of being the first Dynasty to build a great wonder. The question remains to be seen if this wonder will prove to offer a net positive strategic value.

--------
I again must apologize for having heavy time commitments at this point in time because I noted a number of interesting features that could be compared and discussed. Just extracting minimaps from the military advisor inset screen provides some interesting perspective of the current status of civ development in each game plus a better perspective of the physical appearance of teh empires as detailed in the text of the turns reports. (an example of this sort of comparison was posted late in the handyandy game thread.)

I prepared one additional specialized graph from the data to facilitate further discussion.

This graph displays the power progressions for the two sets of players who have played from common intermediate save for timepoints after the initail start and includes the cracker line form reference.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_pairs_bc775.jpg

A particularly interesting comparison in this graph can be drawn between the zenga and theos data since the share a common timeline point for turn 30. theos has pursued the Great Library gambit of pouring sheilds into the wonder will amassing cash and this compares to zenga's approach that is more like the other players in that it relies on agressive trading, contacts, and parallel research to climb through the tech tree quickly. It will remain to be seen if the approach used by theos will results in regaining parity with zenga in subsequent rounds.

Stwils is hanging close to Lee, but the graph combines with the 775bc data table to show an almost immediate down trend due to the slightly different choices in the build queue. Some discussion of these specific choices would be beneficial if adjustments might be warranted at this early stage.

Charis,

I applaud and appreciate your efforts to facilitate conclusion of this game beyond the turn 120 save point. Please feel free to proceed with that effort and I encourage all players to participate.

It might be logistically better to plan on opening a separate but similarly named discussion thread specifically for that purpose so that the concluding progression can be addressed separately. There is considerable value in providing a slight break between these two piecse of the game because the late game play will include opportunities to discuss the 4 non-standard unit play issues and to share screen shots of the multicolored "irritators if they appear.

Playing out the finish of the game might include a deliberate shift to a non-space race track once the basic conclusions of this early exercise may become obvious.

My increased admin tasks will probably combine with the severely wounded .sav game file status to push me into the background as play progresses. The exploded condition of the save files for my game due to that compression bug are now taking and extra 4 to 5 minutes to transition between turns even on a lightning fast CPU.

I will try to keep pace for as long as life support holds out. It will be interesting if players find any value in the "irritators", "migrants", and/or "helicopters that might have a use."

@cracker - I know picking up GOTM has killed your time for other stuff


Is this the LAST graph for the game?
If so - OUCH - my next 30 got contact and a slew of techs.


Is there anymore official QSC turns?

Charis, I'll definitely want to see this to completion. The QSC scoring doesn't come close to reflect the power of my game (or so I think). I have completed my game and will upload the key events whenever it is agreed to do so. I can't wait to see how badly the warmongers were hurt be the global impoverishment of the world.

I too intent to play to completion without changing games. I think it would be interesting to see if the QSC is a true correlation to when the lauch will take place. I think "officially" 3 more 10 turn rounds remain, but I believe that a majority of the players would like to see the game complete.

Hotrod

Excellent, glad to see many are going to finish it.

cracker - as yes, congrats on the double-edged sword of GOTM leadership, they couldn't pick a better guy for it! :goodjob:
ouch on the save files - on the plus side, knowing how your game is going so far, you'll reach many of those timepoints earlier than we will, and some useful extrapolation might be possible, even if you can't make it to launch.

I think we have one more set of 30 turns as the final 'planned' set of results. Actually, you see that big treasury I have? The sound of impending hoofbeats do a real number on me. I actually was planning for the invasion and thought I was ready, then realized... my one 'beachhead' city was totally indefensible. And did you guys know you can't form embassies in Anarchy?! (sobs)
It'll be good to see where Lee stands now that quantum leap of contacts registers.

I'm happy with the 'uptick' in the Genghis line, I was wondering if or when it would come - although next round might see it tail off again :P Like Jaxom though, I feel the QSC isn't catching full appreciation of the players "power" in game - I look forward to seeing how he does, and actually... how detrimental to game pace was the slaughtering of countless thousands on the picturesque chinese landscape??

Charis

PS in Edit

cracker...

- Have you ever plotted those graphs with a log y-axis? The slope of the line at any point then is the "growth coefficient" for an exponential formula, and would more clearly show how growth changes as a function of time. With a regular plot there's emphasis just on the 'latest' turns

- What's next after you get settled in with GOTM and after this one has run its course? Emperor or Deity QSC?!

- Any interest in a succession game? :beer:

- there will be one more QSC graph set for the 100,110,120 round.

After that I will make the spreadsheet available for download and use by all players.

.. more later,

@Charis -
FYI How close I was for contacts in this round.

690 BC - Well the other continent is known, but I didn’t find it :(
We begin a massive trading session that starts by giving India feudalism.
When it is all done we net 6 contacts, $183, Monotheism, Engineering, Monarchy, and a complete wm of the other side of the world. I think that qualifies as a huge jump in power ;)


The tech pace of this game is still insane. I finished the fp in xxxxxx and was building rails to speed up productions. This was a realitvely early fp :crazyeye:

I am thinking of running a QSC myself *AFTER* the holidays. What I can't figure out is how to easily count all the builds, slaves, etc.

@Cracker -

I thought you already mentioned it, but I can't find it.
Where is the thread that talks about how to run a QSC.

Lee,

I openned that discussion thread here on 11/21:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=37218

but that was the day before I was visited in my sleep by the "three ghosts of GOTM" and you can see how much I have gotten back to that topic since then. ;)

I still have this on my to do list and think it is a high priorty. If you can give me a week, then we can use that discussion thread to develop/cover/share the things that I think see to work so far.

I have existing spreadsheets plus we are developing an external scoring utility that will ease the process.

Within the Games of the Month Arena we will continue to support open QSC games for all players but the progression game format for a registered group of players will be a format that continues to hold alot of value due to the 10 turn snapshots that faciltate broader data analysis and comparison. I personally learn new things every time I particpate in one of these games regardless of what difficulty and conditions may apply.

Let's pick up this discussion in that other thread sometime next week and invite anyone else who may care to participate to do so in the other thread so that we do not clutter up the flow of this game too much. (It's such a pretty thread ;) )

Sounds good -
Among other, I will want the spread sheets, etc to run one.


Let everyone know when to post the next 3 rounds - I have them done ;)

Let us proceed with the upload of the next 3 rounds because I sense that many players have "ants in their pants"

The next three rounds should be:

570bc - turn 100
370bc - turn 110
170bc - turn 120

If anyone is well ahead of the pace and would like to do minimap recap at the end of this upload cycle. I think that integrating the minimaps in a composite review would provide a nice capstone perspective. (you can find somewhat of an example of images that I extracted from mil adv screenshoots in the handyandy game thread.)

Two different players could tackle pieces of this by focusing on how the AIs are different in the games and by focusing on major map differences between the chinese empires of our players.

Good luck to all the Maos as they begin to show us how they will dismantle the middle ages ;)

The Genghis report... Turns 100-120

750 BC - Ouch, Washington is about to be hit with a huge uprising.
Eep, so are we, up at Tientisn and down south by Canton or Chengu! A vet
sword turns around, and another one comes down south to deal with this.

I note we're top in land area, meaning we could make some RoP money.
Besides spending money on embassies is good if a barbarians horde
pillages our coffers. Erm... why can't I pull up the embassy screen??
Can't do it in anarchy?? That's news! (But it makes sense)

730 BC - Zone defense vs the Southern barbs, and two spears up north.
Next two turns could be VERY painful!

Hastings is defeated and autorazed, another worker.

710 BC - Crud - a third uprising, not seen until now, by Tatung,
our island city. No WAY we'll repel that. Would you believe,
almost $1K in cash and nothing to spend it on.

London had two reg defenders, defeated by an elite archer and a vet
horse who promotes to elite. England is gone! (Bye Liz!)
Of course its worker is unhappy due to 'oppression'

690 BC - Sheer butchery. Ransacked for about 400g!!! Two cities were
run over. In Tientsin, 3 defenders promoted to elite before getting
killed. Tatung didn't last long. No embassies in anarchy, didn't
see that coming. :smoke: on my part - hey cracker your warning was
valid for everyone :P

What's worse - 10 more barb horses outside Tatung which is now
defenseless. Please someone come up with a tech this turn??!

I quite seriously consider abandoning Tatung but really, the gold
loss isn't worth an outpost on the other continent.

*NOTE TO SELF - Embassy with smaller civs and sell them RoP! **

670 BC - At least an Nanking we did ok, seeing a spear and sword promote
to elite and hold off 10-12 horses.

Anarchy is over and we choose... Republic. It's space race, and despite
possible war weariness, self research is key, and best powered by a
representative govt. It's also time (past time??) to start researching
again for ourselves, no more min sci. 50% gives 9 turns to Feudalism.
Beijing starts a marketplace. Spare troops from London area work their
way toward India.

650 BC - Wow, no civ is working on the Pyramids?

630 BC - Greece finishes Oracle, I bet now some will switch to Pyramids :P
We have Canton going on those more as a general prebuild for some wonder.
Pyramids would work well, but so would Sistine. We don't much need the others.

610 BC - Near Tientsin hopefully the last of the barbarians from the uprising,
two are near, hit by sword and warrior, sword promotes to elite, warr wins.
A sword clears a barb camp SE of Canton, and we note another near London.
We rush a warrior in Tatung, I don't like our beachhead being flat empty.

590 BC - Not much, we come in recon range of three juicy Indian cities,
Madras, Kohlapur and Bangalore. Just... scouting of course. Bangalore
is defended by a warrior??? Sounds like... an "Opportunity!"

570 BC - We move up the last sword into position for opportunity to knock...

Charis 570 BC Save (Turn 100) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Charis_BC570.sav)

550 BC - A settler pair comes out of Madras?! Double opportunity! :P

Just to be different, and to prove we're not evil, we actually declare
war OUTSIDE the boundaries of India. That lil warrior is in range of
an elite horse... opportunity knocks...

.. and KUBALI KHAN opens the door!! :hammer:

About time we saw a leader for all this mongering! Several good choices,
FP, Pyramids, and an army. Since we don't even have a ring of cities,
the FP I would normally take as a top choice, I think I'll pass on. And I
think I'll have enough fighting for an army later. Pyramids would REALLY
help my growth curve, and I'm feeling kind of behind. It's a great one for
a large continent of semi-dense cities like this, and while I'm building
many granaries now, they've not completed.

Bangalore is thus autorazed, I wish it were size 2 and a keeper.
Next attack is that settler pair. It's a warrior-settler, and it promotes
our horse to elite and "liberates" two more workers! :p

We clear a barb camp behind London.

530 BC - At Kohlapur, not one but two spears. Our vet horse loses a close
one and our elite archer wins.

510 BC - Feudalism arrives, we start Theology to go for Sistine. Chivalry
for riders would be extremely nice, but actually a tad too EARLY for our GA.

490 BC - Elite sword defeats reg spear at Kohlapur and it autorazes.
Sigh, grow in size or culture, would you Gandhi?? Madras is our other target,
also size 1... but... the borders suggest it's got culture. Elite archer wins,
sword promotes to vet and the city is ours, with one worker LIBERATED!
Ah, neat, we get to keep rather than raze it. Done.

Beijing finished marketplace, will pop out a worker then rush Pyramids next turn.

470 BC - Pyra-rush! Thanks Kublai! BTW, the east-continent civs are all BROKE!
A worker on a mountain mining project has to run when a barb horse shows up nr London.

450 BC - Babs start Sistine, which means a trading opportunity. Well, or so you
would think. I'm just four turns from Theology and he still won't trade it
straight for Feudalism. I'll pass for now.

Settler out of Tsingtao, heads for the first York wine site 3 steps away.
We have two units outside Delhi, probably not enough yet, and more on the way.
An elite warrior steps up toward them, out of Jaipur. Sounds like good
warmup until the others arrive to try for Delhi. Our elite horse wins.

430 BC - Barb camp shows up RIGHT where my wines settler is! A spear playing
zone is in range thanks to our road network :P Macao is founded, dispersing
the camp for 25g, and the spear moves in to defend vs 2 barb warrs.

Delhi is size 6, we have to start chipping at it now before it grows.
An elite horse kills a spear. Emboldened by the win, the elite archer
goes after the next spear and wins without a scratch. That's it?
Just two defenders in the capital (oops, I look in mine, zero defenders)

Delhi has been LIBERATED! :hammer:

India has nothing whatsoever to offer for peace. Nearby Bombay is the
new capital, and they have four other cities. Delhi is a flip risk while
they remain.

410 BC - Outside Macao one barb pillages a wine tile, the other attacks
and promotes my spear to elite. The spear kills the pillager in retaliation.
Outside Shanhai a warr promotes to vet, and a sword kills another barb.
There's a camp now visible.

390 BC - Theology arrives, and Canton moves over to Sistine due in
We look into Education next.

The Shanghai camp is dispersed. With Pyramids functional now, we've got
SEVEN settlers under construction and a worker.

370 BC - Iro complete Great Library in Salamanca. It should expire in about
six turns (ha!)

Charis 370 BC Save (Turn 110) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Charis_BC370.sav)

350 BC - Midturn Cathy dared demand tribute - contact with America!
HA! Come get some girl!! She was bluffing. A lot of east civs are
starting Sistine and SunTzu. Not sure what they're trading for the
tech - last I saw they were all flat broke. I recheck, they ALL are broke.

Down South a warrior heading to a barb camp sees a horse go past. He
better get the horse first. OW! He lost! Ha! That's what I get for
training a regular troop! Told ya rax were purely for defense! We call
for zone defense quickly from Shanghai.

330 BC - A few more settlers rdy this turn. At Karachi we lose an elite archer,
but see a sword promote to elite. NW of London a camp dispersed, promoting
horse to elite. At Bombay, elite horse beats spear, and an elite archer moves
up to join him next round. By Jaipur we see a barb horse about to hit the
town. (Kill him, don't promote the spear!) We found the town of Anyang.

310 BC - South core disperse another camp, although our horse drops to 1 hp first.
At an elite convention outside Bombay, our first horse dies 8-\
The archer sees the spear is wounded and likely alone, so presses on, and

LIBERATES Bombay and one worker.

290 BC - Washington DC completes the Great Wall! Cool, I can capture that city
for a Golden Age?!

Shantung is founded, connecting London to Macao.
Chinan is founded on the coast SE of Canton.

At Karachi, elite sword liberates (autorazes) the small town, rescuing one worker.
Jaipur is the new capital and an elite sword attacks there... losing 8-|
There's only that and two cities left to India.

270 BC - Education is researched. Normally with Chinese I would surely go for
Chivalry now, but with Space Race, I'll ignore optionals and go for Astronomy.
FINALLY the east civs have made contact with Zulus. A few turns ago I stopped
hawking over that, seeing no brokering opportunity because, well, the AI is
BROKE, constantly.

Kaifeng is founded on South coast.

250 BC - It's with sadness we report the fatal wounding of the horse of the
leader Kublai Khan. On the wall of Calcutta was he slain 8-\ At least
an archer with him took out one other defender.

230 BC - That archer continues the attack vs Calcutta and...
... is slain, dropping the defender to 1 hp (DOH!!!)

Just as archers are starting to feel kind of outdated, another elite one
attacks Jaipur. He almost dies, but instead, one from the platoon comes up
with a very witty and profound philosophy about fighting, and wins the
battle!! His name you ask? Sun Tzu!! :hammer:

This was part of the reason for the merciless prosecution of this war vs
India. It's almost purely fought by elites, and there was strong hope for
some fishing. Now what? Well... building the namesake wonder is a very
strong 'RPG' move, but in this QSC game, I make the more practical choice
of a Forbidden Palace. Where? Not sure yet, but possibly Delhi, once India
is gone for good.

210 BC - Two more settlers done. One heads SE in our backyard and the other
West of Beijing, these will finish our 'core' area.

India is close enough to gone for good and I'll have more elite battles
left. We rush the FP in Dehli. Then we take Jaipur with an elite horse.

Aha, Persia has Engineering and Chivalry, finally some brokering!
He lacks Education. Russia also has both and Iroquois have Chivalry.
Persia will give BOTH, and WM and 29g for Edu. Done!

I "give" Education to the Iro, owner of the GL, for free (it'll pop
out on his turn anyway). Now he's quite polite. I want the AI to research
the 'bottom' track for me, so I trade/give away Engineering to all eastern civs.

190 BC - Persia finishes the Colossus in Susa.
Again our settler arrives only to find a barb camp show up - NE of Tientsin.
Actually, the gain of 25g will outweight the ransack. (Which turns out to be 7g)

170 BC - Barb camp dispersed west of Jaipur. Yangchow is founded in NW of core.
Warr promotes to elite on barb, and another to vet. (Near York and London)

The Iro have landed a settler on our continent. Bad choice, but it'll be quite
a while before I have to teach them THAT lesson...

State of affairs in 170BC - 24 cities, 4 settlers en route (4 i.p.),
4 native workers, 18 liberated, 2 archers, 5 warr, 2 spear, 5 sword, 5 horse,
and in two turns our first RIDER.

Charis 170 BC Save (Turn 120) (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Charis_BC170.sav)

Charis

Turns 91 to 100:

[list=1]
750 BC Macao is founded on the inner sea. Xerxes knows of Theology, many civs know of Monarchy.

730 BC Anyang founded to claim some gems near Zululand. Trade Monotheism to Elizabeth for Monarchy.

710 BC Shantung founded on the NE coast. The scientists knows of Feudalism.

690 BC ...

670 BC Trade Monotheism to Gandhi for Feudalism.

650 BC ...
630 BC ...
610 BC ...

590 BC Chinan is founded on the SE coast, completing my landgrab. Engineering is now available@2nd civ price.

570 BC ...
[/list=1]

Turns 101 to 110:

[list=1]
550 BC ...

530 BC First harbor is built in Tientsin. Bought Theology from Babylon for 260 golds, traded to Russia for Engineering. Cash rushed a couple of libraries. Research on education at 20%.

510 BC Ha! Hiawatha asked me to help him fight the German. I said no and he made peace right away.

490 BC What are they doing on our continent? Come on guys, we are loosing the tech race!

470 BC I sold Engineering for chump change to all Ai from our continent except to Shaka who looks like he is up to no good. My badly hurt exploring galley is pursued by a stack of 3 barbarian galleys!

450 BC ...

430 BC Darn, some contacts have been made, I lost my monopoly! Shaka turned around after encountering my fortified spears on the mountain choke.

410 BC At least I snatch the Pyramids in Canton.

390 BC ...

370 BC Xerxes as learned education.
[/list=1]

Turns 111 to 120:

[list=1]
350 BC India builds the Great Library.

330 BC Whoa! A whole lot of cascades. They all go for the big wonders, I'll try to snatch the Great Wall to start my GA. If it doesn't work, then it will be a FP. Bought Education from India for 3gpt and 165 golds, sold it to everybody for all their golds for a total of 110 golds and chivalry. Research started on Invention at best pace.

310 BC ...
290 BC ...
270 BC ...
250 BC ...

230 BC Zulu declares war on India. Come on guys, play nice and we all win :)

210 BC My badly hurt galley made it back to safety. The captain is now throwing rocks at the barbs galleys. We discover Invention, research started on Gunpowder at best pace (6 turns). Grumble, on the same turn, Babylon got it and sold it around for peanuts. Ok then, I sell it to all the others for a total of 130 golds. Well then it is time for banking instead of gunpowder. Come on guys, this is not helping, spread out and we all get there sooner.

190 BC ...
170 BC ...
[/list=1]

Here are the save games:
570 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_jaxom_BC0570.sav)
370 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_jaxom_BC0370.sav)
170 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_jaxom_BC0170.sav)

A military advisor in the Genghis camp was overheard to speak these words....

With the worlds greatest Riders he wants to BUILD his way to a Golden Age??!?! hrmffpf mumble treehugger hrmfphfft

:D Good turn Jaxom. You're getting more research out of your nearest neighbors, whereas... others (cough) are merely getting scrap metal from razed city remains, for the horseshoes to outfit their riders!

Charis

A wise sage atop the observatory of the newly built pyramid exclaims:


The Great Wall is China's pride, how could any leader let somebody else build it? Washington builds the great wall, harumpf silly warmongers.


Too bad you lost so much cash to barbs, I think I have only 1 tech ahead of you so you are not as slow as I would have thought. Unless I am much slower then I thought I was. :)

710 BC - Macao is formed.
690 BC - Well the other continent is known, but I didn’t find it :(
We begin a massive trading session that starts by giving India feudalism.
When it is all done we net 6 contacts, $183, Monotheism, Engineering, Monarchy, and a complete wm of the other side of the world.
650 BC (I) - We get one of the great wonders for a space race - Colossus and the extra income [dance]
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-LKENDTER-570BC.zip
510 BC - Anyang is formed - this city completes the southern area.
470 BC (I) Theology completes, heading for Education.
450 BC (I) The Great Library completed by England, which is almost obsolete already.
430 BC (I) The Hanging Gardens are completed in Babylon.
390 BC (I) Sun Tzu completes in Beijing.
Athens completes the Pyramids.
Zimbabwe completes the great wall.
370 BC - I upgrade 6 spearmen to pikemen.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-LKENDTER-370BC.zip

310 BC - Shantung is formed.
270 BC - Opposite direction research pays again, and I trade Education to Persia for Invention, wm, and $18.
210 BC - I break down and finally establish embassies with the other side of the world.
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-LKENDTER-170BC.zip


========================================

Interesting, I don't know how, but I look almost even in tech with JaxomCA
The only one missing is Chivalry, which I get in a couple of turns



With the worlds greatest Riders he wants to BUILD his way to a Golden Age??!?! hrmffpf mumble treehugger hrmfphfft

No problem here - A sneak peak at the future:
<during the next 30 turns> A little bit earlier then planned, but England is trying to hook up Saltpeter - WAR.
Our first rider wins his battle. Our GOLDEN AGE has begun.

Just an excerpt for a tech progress summary in my turns

730 BC (turn 92) – Discovered Invention.
610 BC (turn 98) – Discover Gunpowder.
430 BC (turn 107) – Discovered Chemistry.
310 BC (turn 113) – Discovered Metallurgy.
290 BC (turn 114) – Trade all contacts to Alexander for Theology , 8 gold, and world map.

(and a bone is thrown to the pack of wolves)

210 BC (turn 118) – Discovered Military Tradition.

750 BC (91): Found Anyang on the other continent and disperse camp for 25 gold. Change Shanghi to barracks, canton back to swords. England Allies with Abe and decares war. Change Nanking to Spearman.

730 BC (92): Learn Feudalism, start on Chivalry. Found Shangtung to the South. Change Beijing to Temple. Change Canton to horsey. Tsintoa now building pikeman.

710 BC (93): Give Abe Monotheism to go away. I can concentrate on kiling lizzy. Tsingtoa completes first pike start another.

690 BC (94): Completed road to furs. Shanghai builds barracks start on horseman. Pike arrives in Beijing.

670 BC (95): Build Chinan to the North. Sword attacks and kills reg english warrior.

650 BC (96): Pike completes in Nanking, horse out of Canton, English archer kills our sword. Sell feudalism for 90 gold, and Monarchy to the Iroquois. Sell cathy feudalism for 19 gold. Sell abe Monarchy for 30 gold. Sell xman Feudalism for 30 gold and 1 gpt. Increase research to 90% to get Chivalry in 4 turns at -37 gpt.

630 BC (97): Xinjin builds temple start on library. Tsingtao builds pike starts another.

610 BC (98): Beijing builds temple starts library. Vet horse kills english archer.

590 BC (99): More horses complete. Chivalry next turn :devil:. Start temple in Macao.

570 BC (100): Learn chivary start on engineering. Canton and Shanghi are building riders. Change Nanking to settler. Upgrade horsey to rider for 80 gold. Sign ROP with Hammi for 43 gold. Trade Chivalry, TM, 2 gpt, 43 gold and ROP with Persia for Engineering, I was still 12 turns away. Start on Invention but at min science to generate gold for some rush builds.

550 BC (101): Begin moving upgraded Rider to the front lines, Change my entertainer in Coventry to scientist.

530 BC (102): Continue moving rider toward the English.

510 BC (103): 1 rider, 1 horse and an archer are approaching York. Hurry courthouse in Chendu for 160 gold.

490 BC (104): Beijing completes library start on cathedral. Chegdu builds courthouse starts temple. Tsingtao builds pike starts temple.

470 BC (105): move some workers. Pillage Yorks wines, horseman kill warrior and promotes to elite. Reg english archer kills elite horsey :(.

450 BC (106): Reg archer kills english archer. Hurry Canton Rider for 80 gold.

430 BC (107): Canton and Shanghi build riders, move both towards York, Shanghi starts temple.

410 BC (108): Xinjian builds library starts aqueduct. Nanking builds worker, starts granary.

390 BC (109): Take York with 3 riders and an archer, no loses. gain a worker/slave. Enter my golden Age. Hurry temple in Macao for 160 gold. Trade Hammi Engineering for Theology and 6 gold. Sign ROP with Iroquios for 30 gold.

370 BC (110): Tsingtao builds temple starts Colossus. Macao builds temple, starts library. Attack and take Canterbury. Lizzy will talk peace but I decline for now. Change production to Pyramids in Beijing. Hurry Temple in Shanghi for 124 gold.

350 BC (111): Change Warwick and Coventry to Harbor, Change Macao to harbor. X-Man has invention but wants everything in trade, not yet.

330 BC (112): Mini Stack of riders arrives at London but will continue south toward Nottingham first (wait for more troops to arrive from the East).

310 BC (113): Riders move on towards Nottingham. Shanghi builds settler to travel across the sea. Starts rider. Invention is still riduculusly expensive.

290 BC (114): Pillage Englands Iron, will attack Nottingham once the 3rd rider arrives.

270 BC (115): Nanking builds granary, start library. Greeks complete GL. Xinjian builds aqueduct start marketplace. Hurry temple in Anyang. Sending pike/settler pair to other continent. Kill an english archer approaching Cantebury. Attack Nottingham, first rider promotes to elite. Destroy Nottingham capture 1 slave.

250 BC (116): Hurry temple at York and Harbor at Macao.

230 BC (117): Macao builds harbor starts library. York builds temple starts library. Settler pair arrives on the other continent.

210 BC (118): Forth rider arrives at London, will attack next turn.

190 BC (119): Take London easily, Make Lizzy and offer she can't refuse, she gives up Newcastle. She only has Oxford an ice city and Hastings on the Indian boarder remaining.

170 BC (120): The resistance in london has ended, start temple. Chinan completes temple starts courthouse. Shanghi completes settler starts cathedral. Hurry temple in Shangtung.

Here are the saves:



http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_HOTROD_BC570.sav
http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_HOTROD_BC370.sav
http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_HOTROD_BC170.sav

775 BC (0) Examine cities.

730 BC Sacked barb camp in the south. Built Anyang, sacking barb camp in the north. MM Xinjiang to have a clown until it's hooked up to the trade net.

710 BC Spear at Anyang defeats barb to become a vet. Shantung founded.

690 BC Furs hooked up. Beijing MM for growth as it will finish market in 1 turn anyway.

630 BC Chinan founded. Temple rushed at Xinjian to claim Gems soon. Horses hooked up. Tientsin MM to grow, as the AI has put it working the undeveloped golden hill.

590 BC The English build the Great Library, and everyone cascades to Pyramids. Iron hooked up. Kaifeng founded.

570 BC Buy Feudalism for Monotheism + 59 gold from Elizabeth. Sell Monotheism to Shaka for WM + 44 gold, before Liz does.
(Repeated from autosave to avoid oreo penalty; same actions occurred.)

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/QSC-c1-Borealis_bc570.zip

530 BC Beijing builds Library; starts Sun Tzu. Gems hooked up; lux tax abolished for the meantime.

490 BC Spot Zulu city of Mpondo on other continent; contact is sure to follow so sell while I can.
Contact with everyone except Liz , with Feudalism, gets me Theology + WM + 37 gold from Xerxes.
I trade Hiawatha Contact with the Zulu for WM + 4 gold. Hammurabi Contact with the Zulu for WM + 5 gold.
Alex Feudalism for 49 gold.
Catherine Contact with the Zulu for WM + 3 gold.
Bismarck Currency for WM + 11 gold.
Shaka TM for WM + 5 gold.
America TM for WM + 4 gold.
Gandhi TM for 1 gold + WM.
Liz WM for WM + 24 gold.
Every AI treasury is empty, and I'm at tech parity with a huge gold cache. Liz needs something to give to the other AI players to get contact with Xerxes to get benefit out of her GL, and Shaka, the other civ with the most contacts on the other continent, is poor in cash and territory. His cultural boundaries reveal a severe lack of temples and libraries.

470 BC Proof that the AI nearly gives contacts away: Liz has 8 gold and contact with everyone. If I'd known people would trade her something for nothing, I'd have sold her Theology last turn.

*grumble*

Sell TM to Gandhi for 1 gold. From now on, assume I'm usually trying to keep the AI bankrupt by selling them useless maps.

450 BC Beijing MM to stop growing; it'll grow in 1 turn once I get it. Letting it grow would mean lux tax, for just one city, and working the forest tile instead gets it Sun Tzu/equivalent shield wonder that much faster.

390 BC Galley survives assault by barb galley without a scratch, and is promoted to vet.

370 BC Galley survives annother barb attack without a scratch.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/QSC-c1-Borealis_bc370.zip

350 BC Liz has Chivalry; I buy it from her for 578 gold, in case I do need to use riders. ;)
I sell it to Xerxes for WM + 49 gold.
Theology to Hammurabi for WM + 16 gold.
Theology to Bismarck for WM + 12 gold.
Theology to Catherine for 1gpt + 22 gold.
Chivalry to Alex for WM + 20 gold.
Theology to Gandhi for WM + 10 gold.
Chivalry to Shaka for WM + 13 gold.

330 BC Athens builds The Pyramids. Everyone switches to Sun Tzu or Sistine.

290 BC Another barb galley suicides to the keen marksmanship of Chinese sailors. Cities size 3 and above MM for shields over growth.

270 BC Xerxes has Education! I buy it for WM + 770 gold. It's worth it at 2nd civ prices as it will now pop from the GL, ending Liz's free tech run. Before it pops, I sell it to her for WM + 16 gold.

250 BC Temple hurried in Shantung; Canterbury evidently finally built one.

230 BC Yet another barb galley suicides. Babylon builds the Hanging Gardens. Shanghai starts Sistine prebuild for maybe Smith's. Macao gets a tax collector and is MM to stop growing for the meantime; its Library is almost done and it will be able to start another improvement to pacify the masses soon.

190 BC Barb galley. Again.

170 BC :sleep:

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/QSC-c1-Borealis_bc170.zip

Here goes turns 91 - 120 ...


750BC(91)

Shanghai build setttler, start court. Both barb camps taken for 25g each. Tientsin switched from spear to worker, Chengdu switched from spear to temple.

730BC(92)

Tatung founded N of Chengdu, start worker.

710BC(93)



690BC(94)

Beijing builds temple, start settler. Tientsin builds worker, start worker.

670BC(95)


Theology researched, start Education (due in 12). Trade Theolgy to Iroquois for Feudalism, WM + 68g. Establish embassy with Persia. Gift Feudalism to Persia, Babylon and Greece.

650BC(96)

Trade England Feudalism for 25g + WM.

630BC(97)

Canton builds Colossus! Start courthouse for shield save before Copernicus build. Beijing builds settler, start settler.

610BC(98)

Tsingtao builds library, start cathedral.

590BC(99)

Shanghai builds court, start library. Nanking builds library, start court. Xinjian riots after growth, set taxman. Macao founded near gems in N, start worker.

570BC(100)

Xinjian riot over. Babylon has Engineering but won't trade yet. Establish embassy in Babylon. Sign ROP with Greece for 28g from them.

550BC(101)

Beijing builds settler, start settler. Tientsin builds worker, start worker.

530BC(102)

Tatung builds worker, start temple. Xinjian builds temple, start worker. Anyang founded on tundra between furs, start temple.

510BC(103)



490BC(104)

There are a few civs with Engineering now but none will take what cash I have (135g).

470BC(105)


Education researched, start Astronomy. Beijing builds settler, start settler. Canton builds courthouse, start library. Xinjian builds worker, start court. Shantung founded NE of Anyang, start temple.
Trade Education to Babylon for Engineering, WM + 49g. Trade Engineering for small amounts to America and Zulu.

450BC(106)

Shanghai builds library, start cathedral. Hangchow builds temple, start court.
English build TGL, gift them Theo, Eng and .... Education - who said the Chinese were not good neighbours? Cascade follows to Sun Tzu and Sistine.

430BC(107)

Tientsin builds worker, start worker.

410BC(108)

Nanking builds court, start cathedral.

390BC(109)

Beijing builds settler, start settler. Macao builds worker, start temple.
Trade Education to India for Chivalry + WM.

370BC(110)

Furs finally online and lux tax down to 10% (yes, it took me 20 turns Jaxom!).

350BC(111)

Astronomy researched, start Invention. Canton switched from library to Copernicus, need to add a couple of workers to it soon. Not going to trade it yet, want to get a head start on Cop. Chinan founded on S coast, start worker.

330BC(112)



310BC(113)

Beijing builds settler, start settler. Tientsin builds worker, start worker. Chengdu builds temple, start court. Worker added to Canton.
Trade Greece Chivalry for WM + 50g. Sign ROPs with Babs and Iroquois for ~30g each to raise some cash.

290BC(114)



270BC(115)

Kaifeng founded on coast SEE of N choke, start worker. Worker joins Canton.

250BC(116)

Ningpo founded in jungle NW of Shanghai, start worker.

230BC(117)

Invention researched, start Gunpowder. Beijing builds settler, start settler.
Invention must have been researched and traded inter turn, all civs bar America, Zulu and Germany had it. Sell it to Abe and Shaka for nominal amounts, Germany I've been starving of techs in the hope that someone else decides to wipe them out - I get the feeling in this game the other civs are more concerned with Wonder building than military (our Chinese divisions are still strong compared to others and we have not built even 1 unit since the ending of the barb uprising).

210BC(118)

Tsingtao builds cathedral, start aqueduct.

190BC(119)

Shanghai builds cathedral, start university. Tientsin builds worker, start worker. Xinjian builds court, start cathedral.

170BC(120)

Still got a monoploy on Astronomy for now. Gunpowder due in 3.



zenga 570bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-zenga-570BC.zip)

zenga 370bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-zenga-370BC.zip)

zenga 170bc (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-zenga-170BC.zip)

(91) 750BC
Beijing and Nanking go into disorder. Both get taxmen.
Xinjian gets a taxman, as I catch it before it has a chance to riot.
Lincoln offers contact with Babylon for 40 gold. I take it.
Order is restored at Beijing and Nanking.

(92) 730BC
Anyang founded.
Another year, another dead barbarian, and another barbarian camp found. These are great for income during anarchy, particularly as we still have that 18 gold/turn deal going for Republic.
I buy Monotheism from Babylon for World Map + 110 gold.

(93) 710BC
We get another 25 gold from barbarians.
I move units up towards an English warrior/settler pair that has intentions to settle "our" land.

(94) 690BC
Tietsin riots. I don't worry too much about these, as our cities don't produce much of anything during Anarchy.
But... Our anarchy ends, and Republic is selected.

(95) 670BC
Post-Anarchy adjustment. I remove all specialists from our cities, and set luxuries at 20%. Income jumps to 31 gold per turn, even with the Republic gold/turn deal.
England dumps Oxford on Chinese lands.
Order restored in Tietsin.

(96) 650BC
All known civs have contacts with 5 other civs and Monarchy. England has Feudalism, but I'm not going to buy it from her. The plan here is to mass produce horsemen and upgrade to riders, then attack England.
I trade World Map, 80 gold and 6 gold per turn to Shaka for communications with the Germans, Russians, Persians and Greeks. The Iroquois already have a city to the North of Hangchow, so I will dispatch someone up there to say hi to them (saving some gold).
I take a look at our new trading partners.
Persia - Is annoyed, has Monarchy and communications with the Iroquois.
Greece - Is annoyed, has communications with the Iroquois - Doesn't have currency or Republic.
Germany - Is annoyed, has communications with the Iroquois - Doesn't have Mathematics, Literature, Polytheism or the contact with the Iroquois. He's so far behind that I'll help him by trading him Republic and our World Map, for his World Map and contact with the Iroquois. What a nice guy I am! With that trade, I finally get to see the whole map.
Russia - Is annoyed, has Monarchy.
Iroquois - is cautious, has Monarchy.
Now that I have all contacts, I check out the best price for Monarchy (a useful tech to have if our rider rush takes too long). Ghandi has the least gold in his treasury and will accept 11 gold/turn, so the deal is made.
I move some spearmen and warriors away from Oxford, so that they are not trespassing in English territory.
Spearmen complete at Nanking and Beijing - both are set to settlers as there is still land to be grabbed.

(97) 630BC
I look round our land and see that we already have spearmen for the next two cities. So I send one spearman towards Canton, and the other towards Macao. Macao switches to temple.
Xinjan builds temple, starts barracks.

(98) 610BC
(99) 590BC
Beijing builds settler, starts temple.
Tsintao builds temple, starts barracks.

(100) 570BC
Settler heads toward city site #1.
Ghandi now has Feudalism. I give him World Map, 90 gold and 7 gold/turn for it. Hopefully someone will research Chivalry.

Arizona_Steve - 570BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Arizona_Steve_570BC.zip)

(101) 550BC
Canton builds temple, starts barracks.
Xinjan builds barracks, starts horseman.

(102) 530BC
Nanking builds settler, starts horseman.
Chengdu builds marketplace, starts barracks.

(103) 510BC
India and England have Engineering and Theology. I'm more interested in beating the techs out of England.
Canton and Tsingtao build barracks. both start horsemen.

(104) 490BC
Shantung founded. Temple ordered to pressure Oxford.
Shanghai builds temple, starts horseman.
India starts the Sistine Chapel.

(105) 470BC
World Map, 11 gold/turn and 71 gold go to India for Theology.
I see India is building Sistine in Bangalore, a size 1 city. Beijing's temple completes this turn, I will start Sistine there.
More horsemen start - I begin piling them up in Nanking.

(106) 450BC
Theology, World Map, 13 gold and 1 gold/turn to Babylon for Engineering. This avoids the penalties for crossing rivers.

(107) 430BC
First horseman fortifies in Nanking.
Greece and India start the Hanging Gardens.
Greece completes the Great Library in Athens.
England begins the Sistine Chapel.
India starts the Sistine Chapel (again?).
India and Zululand start Sun Tzu's.

(108) 410BC
(109) 390BC
I decide that Beijing needs a cathedral more than it needs Sistine, so I switch it. Sistine can always be captured later.
Another 4 horsemen complete and more are ordered.

(110) 370BC
Check diplomacy - no new techs are present.

Arizona_Steve - 370BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Arizona_Steve_370BC.zip)


(111) 350BC
Chinan is founded, bringing furs within our borders. A road is already there, but luxuries cannot be reduced until Beijing gets it's cathedral.
7 horsemen are now fortified in Nanking.

(112) 330BC
India has Invention. Still no sign of Chivalry.

(113) 310BC
(114) 290BC
Babylon, Greece, Russia and Persia also have Invention.

(115) 270BC
Much as I hate to do it, I switch science to 20%, to get Chivalry in 15 turns at a profit.

(116) 250BC
Chivalry drops to 10 turns and I find that a couple of civs have it. I pay Ghandi 11 gold/turn for it, keeping my remaining cash for upgrades.
Chivalry and 4 gold/turn to Russia for Invention.
Science back to 0%.
Upgrade 3 horsemen to riders.

(117) 230BC
Begin accumulating riders in a hill in our territory, ready to strike York.

(118) 210BC
(119) 190BC
(120) 170BC
I have upgraded 5 horsemen to riders.

Arizona_Steve - 170BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_Arizona_Steve_170BC.zip)

Turns 91 - 120
-- The Golden Age

90) 775 BC -- Is there anything to be changed? No, so I press the space bar (after checking F1 first ;) )

91) 750 BC -- Americans sneak attack us at Canton :eeks: Our defending warrior wins the first battle 3-0, then loses the next one 1-3. Canton is auto razed. Everywhere, people are happy because we're attacked :rolleyes:. Lux down to 0%. Science down to 40%, since Theology is due in just one turn. Beijing produces a setter, who is sent southward, away from the action. Beijing starts barrack. Come'n get some, Abe!

92) 730 BC -- In between turns, American warriors and barbarian warrior head towards our nothern cities. Xinjian culture expands. Shanghai finishes our first horseman, starts another, due in 4 turns. Nanking produces a setter, starts barrack. The settler is told to stay put. Theology comes in, Feudalism started, due in 8 turns at break-even rate. But wait, diplomatic check shows the Babs having Feudalism already, and he is willing the part ways with it for Theology. We trade. Gangdhi is behind us in tech and sits right inbetween us and the Americans. Well, Gandhi, we'll teach you the art of government, while you fight the war for us. Is that okay? Good. Monarchy + Republic + WM to India for alliance against the Americans. Another reason for forming the alliance, there are two Indian warriors deep inside my territory, and one of them is two steps from an unguarded city. Research is reset to Engineering, due in 10. The vet warrior in Anyang is awaken and sent toward the front. Shanghai horse is also sent in that direction.

93) 710 BC -- Hangchow finishes temple, starts barrack. Palace expands. Beijing grows the size 6, lux up to 10%, science down to 40%. Canton is founded right next to Canterbury with some 1st ring overlaps. Canterbury is just in a terrible location. It will be razed. Canton starts temple. Sells Construction to Germany and Greek for change. Now everyone is in the middle ages.

94) 690 BC -- Beijing and Xinjian both finishes barrack, both starts horse. Canton Temple is rushed with gold.

95) 670 BC -- Canton temple is finished, starts worker production. Road to iron near Nanking is completed, we have Iron again.

96) 650 BC -- Beijing and Shanghai both completes horses. Beijing is MM'ed to 15 spt at size 7. Shantung and Chinan founded. Persia has Engineering. RoP + Monarchy + Theology + Xman for Engineering + 4 gold + WM. Research starts on Chivary, due in 12 at +10 gpt.

97) 630 BC -- Nanking finishes barrack, starts horse. Tsingtao finishes temple, starts courthouse. Our vet horse defeats a barb horse, promotes to elite! Zulus found Intombe near old Chengdu spot, but in a location that does not claim the gem!

98) 610 BC -- Tientsin finishes harbor, starts worker.

99) 590 BC -- Hangchow finishes Barrack, starts horse. Kaifeng founded on top of the horse on the Zulu choke. Checking diplomacy, nobody has any new tech. Buys Indian worker for WM + 23 gold.

100) 570 BC -- The English complete the Great Libaray in London. Tientsin starts on granary.

* * *

101) 550 BC -- Shanghai finishes horse, starts worker, due in 2 while growth in 2. Our horsemen dispurses a barb camp near Kaifeng for 25 gold. Macao starts on Granary. Canton finishes worker, starts another one.

102) 530 BC -- Nanking finishes horse, starts settler. A few other projects finish this turn, Courthouses and Ganaries are next in line.

103) 510 BC -- Shanghai finishes worker, MM to reach 10 spt and starts horse. With Chivalry due in 4 turns, the goal is to get as many horses build as possible.

104) 490 BC -- In between turns, Persia declear war on the Iroquois! More horses stream out of Beijing.

105) 470 BC -- Hangchow finishes horse, starts Aquaduct. Chivalry due in 2, science down to 30%. With two more horses due to complete next turn, I'll have exactly a dozen Riders to use against the English.

106) 450 BC -- Horses in Beijing and Shanghai finishes. Beijings finally starts temple. Shanghai starts granary.

107) 430 BC -- Chivary! Rider! Not enough money! :( Not to worry. Chivary brokered out to the Persians for 3 gpt + 83 gold. Just to be fair, Chivary to Iroquoies for WM + 27 gold (they're at war). Liz will get Chivary from the GL next turn anyways, so we get another 35 gold from her. Trading WM and tech around the world nets enough money to upgrade 9 riders.

108) 410 BC -- War! York, the English wine town has just one spear defender. Our vet Rider easily defeats it, losing only one HP. The Chinese republic has entered a golden age :) I cycle through each city to make sure that they are using their best GA tiles. York gets a rider garrison and a starvation diet.

109) 390 BC -- Stack of 9 riders arrive outside of London.

110) 370 BC -- Beijing gets a temple, at last. Tientsin finishes granary, starts aqueduct. Ningpo founded to steal the gem from the Zulus. London is defended by only two spears! The riders took both easily. London is captured. The English capital moves to Nottingham. According the the map, it's also the only English city that will not be auto razed in an attack. The rest of our rider corp moves into London to suppress the resisters. With the extra gem claimed by Ningpo, lux is dialed down to 0%. I'm running 0% science for the last few turns to accumulate cash.

* * *

111) 350 BC -- In between turns, the Greeks completes the Pyramids. Indians and Americans sign a peace treaty. Near London, three English warriors show up. One of our riders picks one off and promotes to Elite. More infrastructure related domestic projects are started. Stack of two riders arrive outside of Canterbury.

112) 330 BC -- Ningpo temple is rushed with gold. Now that all the rush/upgrade jobs are finished, I turn on research. Education is due in 5 at +10 gpt. Canterbury is captured instead of razed. I plan to disband it by rushing a settler, saving one population. Two more English warriors are taken out near London, but no promotions. Checking diplomacy, Persians have Invention, Babs have Education, but noth are at monopoly price.

113) 310 BC -- Canterbury rider defends against a barb horse, wins and promotes. He is sent toward the front. Our main rider force is divided. Three are left to guard London. The rest (6), including an elite, heads south toward Nottingham.

114) 290 BC -- Nottingham was only slightly better defended, it has three spears. Our rider force took it without a loss.

115) 270 BC -- Beijing finishes marketplace, starts library. Rider took out a barb camp near Canterbury for 25 gold. Nottingham riders head east toward Warwick.

116) 250 BC -- Doh! I completely forgot about this one :o. Education pops out of London's GL. I just wasted 4 turns of research :(. Anyhow, the GL is now obsolete, research is set to Banking, due in 5 at +1gpt. Warwick is taken without a loss, capturing a worker in the process. The rider corp is now on the door steps of Liverpool.

117) 230 BC -- Liverpool is guarded by only one spear, it's taken without a loss, Coventry is next. Ghandhi is doing something suspicious with his warriors. I cancel my RoP with him and rushed the walls at Ningpo.

118) 210 BC -- Ghandhi's force turns around. Coventry is taken. I'll have to camp there for one turn due to a resister. Meanwhile, another task force of 3 riders is gathered outside of Hastings. A zulu settler pair show up, trying the claim some of MY land. I sent a warrior out of Tsingtao to slow him down.

119) 190 BC -- Everybody has Invention this turn, making it cheap to buy. I get it from the Russians for RoP and Education. Hastings is taken. Got one promotion to Elite, but no leaders. I ask Gandhi to leave. He does. Good boy :).

120) 170 BC -- Banking comes in. Research is set to Astronomy, due in 4 at 70% science. Checking diplomacy, everyone has Musical Theory. Banking is brokered to the only AI that has money. Babs get Banking for Musical Theory + 18gpt + 120 gold. The spear in Tsingtao was also sent out the block zulu settlers, so I dispatch Shantung's warrior in Tsingtao's direction. My Rider force gather outside of Oxford.

The overall state of affairs is quite good. England is down to two cities and will be finished off in 4-5 turns. The real question is whether I will get a leader out of this whole deal or not. I started the war with 13 riders (one up north to scare the Zulus, 12 on the English front), and I did not lose any. So I was able to spend the entire Golden Age pushing infrastructure as planed.

The FP site will probably be York, unless I get a Great Leader out of the remaining 4-5 elite combats of the war. The Wonder situation does not look so rosy. I did not realize how slow the Monarch AIs are at wonder building. I could have had an ancient wonder had I went after it. But now with all the ancient cascades still alive and the techs flying by, I don't like my chances.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-SJF-bc570.sav
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-SJF-bc370.sav
http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1-SJF-bc170.sav

The eavesdropping advisor to the Genghis has a cow on hearing this utterance...

Canton is auto razed. Everywhere, people are happy because we're attacked... Beijing starts Barracks

:sad:

I certainly wish you well in teaching Abe a lesson he'll NEVER forget!! :hammer:

Also, I must say, you're doing very nicely in tech, two techs up on the illiterate Genghis. (Who, being unwashed and uncultured made his very *first* build in the game, a Barracks in Beijing, hence the irony of the quote) I too was surprised to see how long these AI were taking to build wonders.

Go get 'em SJ!!!!
Charis

Originally posted by Charis
I certainly wish you well in teaching Abe a lesson he'll NEVER forget!! :hammer:

Funny how in Civ, honest Abe is not so very honest. I believe I'm not the only player in this game to get sneak attacked by the Americans. Sigh... it looks like the hawks are in power in Washington.

He came to visit me too via the North choke point with 3 reg warriors. The only real problem was that he managed to bring Lizzy in a little too soon.

Hotrod

I have completed the game successfully but I am sure eventhough my launch was my quickest ever I will be lagging the leaders by many turns. I am looking forward to hearing how everyone else has done. I must admit is did get less interesting as time went on :(.

Hotrod

LOL Hotrod, don't bet on it. It took me until 600AD to get my first great leader and the Forbidden Palace, so for all that time my income was not what it should've been.

Played about 4 hours last night, and got into the Industrial Age. I will get my spaceship launched, probably several hundred years after the leaders here :)

I played about 5 but didn't start until 11:00 pm. Today is really dragging :lol:. I did eventually get to a point where I was getting tech every 4 turns but I managed to forget that I couldn't make any parts until I built apollo :smoke:, not to mention I moved my palace because I miss calculated the turns to build it after building Hoover. My place holder completed, [pimp] :smoke: etc.

That must be what happens when you play til 4am. :lol:

Hotrod

Theos's turns 90-100
(90-IT) 775 BC - Learn Currency from Great Library. Beijing Worker->Markerplace. Shanghai Settler->Marketplace.
(91) 750 BC - Begin revolution: 6 turns of anarchy. Entertainers hired to get us through, no cities will starve. New worker off to help connect up furs. New settler off to the north-eastern river delta.
(92) 730 BC - Hangchow worker to mine+road another grassland there. Found Macao E-E-E-N-N of Beijing, just by the gold and will bring iron in range after first expansion.
(93) 710 BC - Spices have been connected, resulting in the firing of a couple of entertainers. Shanghai worker proceeds to clear the spice forest in order to irrigate there.
(94) 690 BC - C/C worker team off to improve bg tile between Beijing and Nanking. Found Anyang N-N-N-N-N-N-E-E of Beijing, on the river delta near iron and spices.
(95) 670 BC -
(96) 650 BC - Furs have been connected and more entertainers are fired. The trio of workers then move off to connect cities to the road network that have yet to be connected. Establish the Republic of China.
(97) 630 BC - Found Shantung S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-S-SW, in the icy wastes south of Canterbury. The aim here is to maximize the cultural pressure on Canterbury and hopefully it will flip. Taxes to 9.0.1. No science as all tech will come through the Great Library. Temples rushed in Chengdu, Canton and Tientsin. Canton Temple->Worker. Chengdu Temple->Courthouse. Tientsin Temple->Worker.
(98) 610 BC - Galley rushed in Anyang. Anyang Galley->Harbor.
(99) 590 BC - Galley starts exploring. Spot green border to the north-east of Anyang. Galley in position to cross next turn. Worker trio links Macao, and one remains behind to help develop the town. The C/C worker duo continues improving Nanking. Canton Worker->Marketplace.
(100) 570 BC - New worker off to improve Chengdu. Galley crosses and meets the Greeks. They have Monotheism up on us, while we have Monarchy. They have communications with 5 other civs. My plan is to use Monarchy as a bargaining chip to get as many of the contacts as possible. Trade with Greece: We get Contact with Russians+5g for Monarchy. Unfortunately the Russians already have Monarchy. I'll probably have to pick up the remaining contacts through exploration.

Theos's 570 BC save (www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q_theos_BC570.zip)

Theos's turns 100-110
(100-IT) 570 BC - England wants to trade territory maps. I do so, which costs me 6g. Russia also wants to trade territory maps which I refuse. Learn Monotheism from Great Library. Tsingtao Horseman->Horseman. Delhi (India) builds the Oracle.
(101) 550 BC - Galley starts heading south-east along Greek coast to find more contacts. Borders grow from south-western cities. Macao Worker->Temple.
(102) 530 BC - Entertainer hired in Shanghai to keep it orderly at size 7. Workers continue to build up cities and connect the remaining ones up. Learn Feudalism from Great Library.
(103) 510 BC - Second spice connected to the capital. Temple rushed in Tatung to secure border against Zulus. Tientsin Worker->Granary. Tatung Temple->Worker.
(104) 490 BC - I note that everyone has met everyone else ... except me.
(105) 470 BC - I discover unsettled land across near Greece. I resolve to plant at least one city there. Change to Settler in Tsingtao and Xinjian, both with no shield loss and settlers next turn. Our galley survives barbarian attacks and promotes. Tsingtao Settler->Horseman. Xinjian Settler->Temple. Shanghai Marketplace->Temple.
(106) 450 BC -
(107) 430 BC -
(108) 410 BC -
(109) 390 BC - Settlers board galley for transport east. Beijing Marketplace->Temple. Canton Marketplace->Library. Nanking Library->Marketplace.
(110) 370 BC - Settlers land on the eastern continent.

Theos's 370 BC save (www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q_theos_BC370.zip)

Theos's turns 110-120
(111) 350 BC - Iron connected to the capital. Found Chinan on the western protusion across the sea. Other Settler killed by barbarian horseman :( Tsingtao Horseman->Horseman.
(112) 330 BC - Galley sunk by barbarians. Beijing riots. Shanghai Temple->Cathedral. Beijing hires a taxman to keep things under control.
(113) 310 BC - Tatung Worker->Courthouse. London (English) completes the Pyramids. Canton riots. It switches production to a Cathedral.
(114) 290 BC -
(115) 270 BC - Another iron source is hooked up. We learn Engineering and Chivalry through the Great Library. Beijing Temple->Barracks, preparing for massive Rider production.
(116) 250 BC - We learn Theology from the Great Library.
(117) 230 BC - We have tech up on Shaka and so we trade for his extra contacts and territory map. We also trade tech for the World Map from the Babylonians. The unclaimed portion of land is still unclaimed, but with an imminent war against the Zulus or the English, I'll pass it up. Beijing Barracks->Rider.
(118) 210 BC -
(119) 190 BC - Extra horses connected.
(120) 170 BC -

Theos's 170 BC save (www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q_theos_BC170.zip)

Final Comments
I guess I'm going to end up behind in tech compared to others, resulting in a slower launch. I went for the Great Library because I felt I was too far behind the others on my continent to catch up. Trading has never been my strong point and I'm probably going to try and replay this start to see if I can keep up without needing the Great Library. My plan for this game is to use the Rider (as I get Education and start my own research) to take over another nation, possibly the English who have the Pyramids for capture. That core should hopefully be sufficient to carry me through the space race, though some trading will obviously be needed.

What is our deadline for submitting these next 30 turns?

stwils:cool:

(91-100)
We become a republic in 710BC.
Clean out barb camp in 690 BC.
Just as the worker complete the road to our second source of iron, it instantly exhausts.
Disperse another camp in 630 BC.
Furs come on-line in 590 BC.

(101-110)
390 BC first colony is buitl on second land mass.

(111-120)
Not much going on, lots of building and not much else.

Meldor 570 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/)Q1_Meldor_BC570.zip)
Meldor 370 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/)Q1_Meldor_BC370.zip)
Meldor 170 BC (http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/)Q1_Meldor_BC170.zip)

Here are my 1st 10 turns for this round

China 775bc-570bc

Beijing gets swordsman/set to swordsman

750bc
Macao pillaged by barbs

730bc
Macao pillaged again by barbs

710bc
We get Republic/set to Monotheism

690bc
We enter anarchy :(
All our cities are smoking :eek:

670bc
Civil Disorder everywhere
English request an audience
we trade maps

650bc

630bc
Everything is chaos and on fire

610bc
Tating warrior beats barb horseman
We are now a Republic
But things are still on fire and the place is filled with smoke
I move luxury slider up

590bc
we have built a settler and will build more
set tsingtao to Library
And order seems to be restored

570bc

settler moves nw nearer England
Oops. I hit something by mistake and there is one worker building a fort or something

I have tried to send the save.

***##&%$&$

Can't seem to upload it and file is now too big to send as an attachment.

:mad:

stwils - working on it

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_stwils_bc570.sav

I hope this worked.

stwils

Originally posted by stwils
... All our cities are smoking :eek: ... things are still on fire and the place is filled with smoke

I hope I'm laughing with you because this has me laughing so hard I have tears in my eyes and my side hurts. ;) :lol: :cry: :lol:

:p :p :p :p :p

stwils:lol:

Turns 570bc-370bc

Tatung warrior kills barb horseman
Tatung burning
I move another warrior into town to help with disorder

550bc

I straightened out worker building fortress (stopped him)
settler moves into position to build new town next turn

530bc

Tatung still on fire
I fortify warrior. Now there are 2 fortified there. Hope that helps
New settler moves south to unsettled spot
Anyang founded
Hangchow gets spearman/set to temple

510bc
I HAVE to do something about Tatung's blaze. Moved luxury slider again
new settler moves nearer southern coast
Beijing gets barracks/ set to Pyramids (who knows, we might just get it)

490bc

Tatung is at last at peace:)
And their warrior kills another barb horseman
Chengd gets galley/ set to build another. (you never know when one might sink)

470bc
Shanghai gets temple/set to swordsman

450bc
New worker in Tatung moves to furs
our new galley moves and encounters barb galley. we sink it!
Xinjian gets temple/ set to Library

430bc
Our galley sinks as another barb galley watches:(
Tsingtao gets Library/set to swordsman
News keeps coming that all sorts of civs are building the Pyramids. I wonder if they will get them before we do.

410bc

390bc
The English build the Pyramids. :(
Beijing switches to Cathedral

370bc

Oh, and the save

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads3/Q1_stwils_bc370.sav

Stay tuned for the last 10 turns.

stwils

Here are the mini maps of all games submitted so far:

http://civfanatics.net/uploads3/comparemini1.JPG

This doesn't include maps for Stwils, Borealis and Cracker.

Well the maps do prove that the AI can have a totally different game from the same position.
I definitely see the differences in Germany.

If you compare some of the peaceful games (for now :satan: ), India developed differently.
The same spot in my game has 2 English cities, but has 2 Indian cities in Theos game.