View Full Version : SGOTM 12 - Plastic Ducks
AlanH Sep 14, 2010, 01:49 PM BtS SGOTM 12 - Atonement
Welcome to your BtS SGOTM 12 Team Thread. Please use it for all internal team communication, turn logs and discussions. Subscribe to it to receive notifications, and do not visit the other team threads for this game until you have finished. Please also subscribe to the Maintenance Thread for this game, where teams and staff may post non-spoiler information of general interest.
The heavens split open, heat poured over the innocents, earth spew lava in anguish, light shone over the earth for a short moment. Then darkness, despair, suffering, torment. And death. If the radiance of a thousand suns were to burst at once into the sky, that would be like the splendor of the mighty one. Stalin had now become Death, the destroyer of worlds. And the people of Russia turned against him in disgust. Civil war broke out and the once glorious civilization shattered as a second wave of nuclear fire rained upon the land. Mankind is thrown back to the stone age, with only small bands of isolated stragglers wandering the plains in search of city sites free from pollution. The vast knowledge collected over the centuries is all but lost, with only fragments left for use. As the last piece of modern communication equipment fails, shocking news reveals that the former enemy civilizations were not wiped out as believed. The survivors managed to reach pockets of relative low radiation to re-found their capitals. And guess what? They have not forgotten. Furthermore, rumors are that Stalin survived as well, and who knows what technology he has access to?...
The good news is that you have managed to retain the knowledge of Ecology. The bad news is that the opponents have most certainly retained advanced knowledge as well, perhaps even nuclear technology.
You are Catherine, the leader of the new Russian civilization. You have to start all over again. The earth is covered in pollution, and all other civilizations are at war with you. You must make Atonement by clearing up ALL fallout, getting rid of Stalin, making peace with ALL other civilizations, and evacuating the earth.
Thanks for this scenario go to Erkon.
Timetable
In order to avoid clashing with the release of Civ5, the game will start on September 17.
The completion deadline will be December 20.
Game Settings
The Start:
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM12_small.jpg (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/images/SGOTM12_large.jpg)
Click for a bigger image.
Speed: Normal
Difficulty: Emperor - but be warned. It may play a little higher that this :rolleyes:
Map: Standard, cylindrical, cold, low water
Opponents: The six civilizations from SGOTM10 (Churchill, De Gaulle, Mao Zedong, Roosevelt, Gandhi, Stalin)
Victory condition: Only space victory
Game Options: no random events, no barbarians, no city flipping from culture, no vassal states, no goody huts. Aggressive AI and rising seas are enabled.
Starting Conditions
Almost all of earth is covered by fallout. You are in contact with all opponents, you are at war with them, and they are upset that you have nuked them. The map is not the same as in SGOTM10. You are land connected to at least one of the AIs. The AI capitals are pre-settled. All biological units have died from exposure to radiation, except your settler. The fallout will not disappear by itself, and it is not possible to settle on fallout (due to a modified BUFFY)
Goals
To win the game:
All fallout must be cleared
Stalin must be defeated (dead)
All other AIs must survive and be at peace with the player when space victory is achieved.
Teams will not be penalized for events outside the team's control, such as:
one AI killing the other before the team has the opportunity to prevent it
one AI declares war on team after the launch
one AI launch a nuke after the launch ....etc.
any fallout that may appear on unreachable terrain does NOT need to be cleaned up.
The teams are trusted to fulfill the objectives to the best of their ability, and any AI related events that prevent the fulfillment of the criteria for winning shall be described and forwarded in a PM to Erkon or me for analysis.
Awards
Laurels will be awarded to up to three teams who accomplish the winning goals fastest (Ie by the earliest in-game dates).
Wooden spoons will go to the team who finishes the game (win or lose) with the lowest score.
Notes
Versions
This game will be played in Civilization IV Beyond the Sword, version 3.19, using a customized HoF Mod 'BUFFY_SG12'. The installer for this special mod is available here (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/BUFFY_SG12.exe.zip). Unzip the downloaded file and run it to install BUFFY_SG12 into your ...\Beyond the Sword\Mods\ folder.
If a later BtS patch is released during this game you will NOT be able to use it to play. You will need to complete this game in BtS version 3.19 before updating your copy of BtS, or create and update a separate copy.
Mac players can only join in if they are able to run the Windows software on their system.
Rules and Procedures
Please visit the Civ4 SGOTM reference thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=168439) to check out the rules and procedures to ensure that you are adequately prepared for this game.
All saved game files uploaded to the server are parsed through software that extracts and archives data about your save, including reload count for each turn set.
Please wait until your team leader/administrator/scribe has reserved a couple of top posts for game admin information. Then post here to let your team know you have arrived.
Good luck .... You might need it :D
kossin Sep 14, 2010, 04:03 PM Plastic Ducks
http://practicalaction.org/images/sea-of-ducks-300.jpg
Link to SGOTM Progress and Results Page (http://gotm.civfanatics.net/submit/civ4sgotm_submission_list.php)
♫Plastic Ducky, you're the one!
You make bathtime so much fun!
Plastic Ducky, we're awfully fond of you!♫
-Dhoomstriker
Welcome to our SGOTM 12 team!
Roster
1.dingding
2.hydraculas
3.nishant1911
4.Bugg123
5.BornInCantaloup
6.Duckweed
7.kossin
... bolded were the active participants after ~one month :)
This post will be reserved for a summary of the rounds played and important announcements.
Links to Played Rounds
Round 1 [t0-t27; 4000BC-2920BC] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9612317) SIP - Agriculture+Animal Husbandry+The Wheel - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9600838&postcount=9)
Round 2 [t27-t32; 2920BC-2720BC] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9627755) Fishing - Same plan as above
Round 3 [t32-t47; 2720BC-2120BC] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9651429) Writing - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9648121&postcount=232)
Round 4 [t47-t63; 2120BC-1480BC] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9686567) Sailing+Mysticism+Meditation+Priesthood - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9686182&postcount=300)
Round 5 [t63-t83; 1480BC-800BC] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9697529) Masonry+Code of Laws+Mathematics+Civil Service - The Oracle - 1st GP (Academy) - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9689828&postcount=320)
Round 6 [t83-t92; 800BC-575BC] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9743858) Currency - GLH - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9739391&postcount=412)
Round 7 [t92-t96; 800BC-475BC] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9743858) Pottery+Bronze Working+Metal Casting - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9739391&postcount=412)
Round 8 [t96-t100; 475BC-375BC] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9774598) Metal Casting+Monarchy(trade)- Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9771743&postcount=466)
Round 9 [t100-t110; 375BC-125BC] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9783926) Metal Casting+Machinery+Polytheism(trade)+Alphabet(trade ) - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9779236&postcount=479)
Round 10 [t110-t120; 125BC-125AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9792256) Machinery+Aesthetics - ToA - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9789350&postcount=496)
Round 11 [t120-t130; 125AD-375AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9820990) Aesthetics+ Literature+Music - Colossus+TGL - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9815573&postcount=531)
Round 12 [t130-t140; 375AD-600AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9838178) - Music+Philosophy(partial)+Calendar(partial) - NE+HE - 2nd and 3rd GP - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9837227&postcount=562)
Round 13 [t140-t144; 600AD-680AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9844416) Monotheism(peace)+Archery(peace)+Calendar(peace)+P aper - Plan here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9840946&postcount=572)
Round 14 [t144-t152; 680AD-840AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9852950) - Paper+Education - 4th GP - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9849393&postcount=585)
Round 15 [t152-t161; 840AD-1010AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9869409) - Education+Philosophy - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9860927&postcount=598)
Round 16 [t161; 1010AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9879035) - Iron Working (trade) - No plan
Round 17 [t161-t170; 1010AD-1100AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9888770&postcount=663) - Philosophy+Printing Press+Drama(peace)+Compass(peace) - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9880577&postcount=647)
Round 18 [t170-t180; 1100AD-1200AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9904020) - Printing Press - Oxford University - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9901392&postcount=678)
Round 19 [t180-t192; 1200AD-1320AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9915451) - Printing Press+Guilds+Banking+Economics+Replaceable Parts+Nationalism(Espionage)+Liberalism(partial)+C onstitution(partial) - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9909263&postcount=699)
Round 20 [t192-t194; 1320AD-1340AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9922929) - Gunpowder+Chemistry - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9917964&postcount=711)
Round 21 [t194-t202; 1340AD-1420AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9924148) - Chemistry+Constitution(partial)+Steam Power(partial) - Same plan as above
Round 22 [t202-t206*; 1420AD-1460AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9927080) - Steam Power+Corporation+Constitution+Liberalism+Assembly Line (liberalism) - Taj Mahal - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9925192&postcount=741)
Round 23 [t205*-t208; 1450AD-1480AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9931219) - Liberalism+Assembly Line(liberalism)+Optics+Scientific Method - Same Plan
Round 24 [t208-t212; 1480AD-1510AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9937506) - Scientific Method+Biology+Communism(espionage) - xth GP - Kremlin -Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9933977&postcount=772)
Round 25 [t212-t218; 1510AD-1540AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9944054) - Steel+Railroad+Medicine - Mining Inc - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9941831&postcount=794)
Round 26 [t218-t223; 1540AD-1565AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9976444) - Medicine - Sid's Sushi - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9971032&postcount=822)
Round 27 [t223-t228; 1565AD-1590AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9981884) - Astronomy+Physics - Fallout realization! (all-out war (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9981950&postcount=841)) - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9979856&postcount=832)
Round 28 [t228-t233; 1590AD-1615AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9991808) - Electricity+Rifling+Refrigeration+Super Conductors+Combustion - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9988819&postcount=860)
Round 29 [t233-t239; 1615AD-1645AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9996411) - Combustion+Radio+Flight+Industrialism+ - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9995926&postcount=875)
Round 30 [t239-t244; 1645AD-1670AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10003784) - Genetics+Rocketry+Satellites+Plastics+Computers - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10001068&postcount=900)
Round 31 [t244-t250; 1670AD-1700AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10012165) - Composites+Fiber Optics+Fission+Fusion+Mass Media+Facism - Plan 1 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10009011&postcount=917) - Plan 2 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10009109&postcount=918) - Plan 3 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10009950&postcount=921)
Round 32 [t250-t260+t261; 1700AD-1755AD] (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10012870) - up to Future Tech 8 - Plan Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10012870&postcount=927)
*Save was lost, had to ask Staff to replay from t205 autosave due to Liberalism
Posts of interest...
Flying Camera Trick (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9688524&postcount=315) (there are a few more scattered throughout)
Post-Game Discussion
Dec 15th Analysis of other teams' progress (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10016123&postcount=948)
Some quotes (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10016244&postcount=951) and more (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10016289&postcount=953)
PD vs OSS, the first 152 turns (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=10017572&postcount=964)
Pre-Game Discussion
Part I (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9598444&postcount=4)
Part II (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9598548&postcount=5)
Part III (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9599763&postcount=7)
Part IV (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9601194&postcount=12)
Set length
With the exception of the first set, the first pass through the roster will have 15-turns sets. Meaning the first time you get to prepare a set, do it for 15 turns.
After that, we will relax down to 10-set per person.
An increase in set length might be added depending on the pace of the game compared to the deadline.
kossin Sep 14, 2010, 04:04 PM Summarized Team Rules
Read the various Rule threads.
Check your ini files so that autosave is set to every turn.
No reloads from previous point, ever!
No reading of other team threads. The best way to resist temptation is
to use the Subscribed threads tool under quick links! Similarily, do
not download other team saves.
When looking at the save, do not perform any irreversible action! You
can't trade, whip or move units.
If the game crashes, stop and pm AlanH with details of what happened.
Wait for instructions.
Suggested:
Save often manually
Do stop if an opportunity becomes available or something goes wrong.
Pause the game before uploading/examining it.
When testing the game, make sure you're using the test game! Markers
will be added here and there to help.
Let us know when you can't make a deadline or RL becomes busy.
A few notes of etiquette:
1. Active participation -- Your contribution to every set is important, even if it's a 'I agree'. Although everyone might have real life issues sometimes, it's courteous to notify the team of you absence.
2. Plan of playing -- The spirit of SG is to play the game following the consensus of the team decision. Therefore the player who is UP should post a clear plan for discussion. Guidelines have been posted for the contents of your plan in the next post. It might be that the team decides to head in a direction you were opposed to, it does not mean you are wrong but rather that the team believes the odds of winning are more likely with the decided approach.
3. Timing -- In the pre-thread we agreed to use the following as upper bounds for discussing, planning and playing the set. Since the game cannot last forever, it is important to respect these in order not to be rushed to finish the game later on.
-24 hours for 'got it' and pre-play-plan [0~24] - Make sure you can open the save before saying 'got it'.
-24 hours for discussion and first plan draft[0~48]
-24 hours for edits [24~72]
-24 hours to play [72~96]
Please keep in mind those are upper bounds, meaning if a consensus is reached before the time is fully elapsed, the set can proceed ahead.
Once again it would be greatly appreciated if you can warn the team, either in this thread or via pm, of your absences so that we do not have to wait for a consensus or skipping. You will be skipped if you cannot meet the time frame.
3a. Please include a report when you submit the save. You may submit your report later but it would be preferable to have it before the discussion on the next set starts.
4. Do not automate workers without first discussing with your team.
5. Do not use city governors without first discussing with your team. Or at least if you do, check cities every turn and remove the governor at the end of your round.
6. Do not leave units on goto orders that extend beyond your set of turns. If for some reason this happens, then be sure to inform your team as to what the unit(s) is/are going.
7. Finish all your discussed turns and upload the game saved at the END of the discussed part.
8. Respect your team mates, and demand their respect. Take care of your writing style, accept that people whose first language is not English will use English in a different way than you are used to. Disagree by all means, but don't make it personal, and don't take it personally.
9. SG's are team games. Be a good team member. Post your ideas, argue your corner and encourage and praise your team mates. Don't be afraid to post in your game thread. That is what it's for.
10. Have fun and QUACK!!!
How a set will be played
There are 7 major parts to every set.
Pre-Play-Plan: see below.
Voting: everyone voices his opinion on the issues raised in 1.
Plan: see below.
Critique of the Plan: once the Plan is posted, players should try/read the plan and look for anything they'd like to change. This is where you must support your arguments!
Final Plan: tries to glue everything together.
Play the Set: see below.
Post the Report: see below
What is the Pre-Play-Plan?
The Pre-Play-Plan is to initiate the discussion on the diverging possibilities at the start of a set. This includes, but not limited to, EP focus, general city micro, general worker micro, general techs. Basically, make an idea of what you want to do with your 10/15 turns.
In the spoiler below are general ideas as to what you can cover with the pre-play-plan. Not everything needs to be discussed, only the obvious decision points.
1. Technologies
What techs are you aiming for? (One, a beeline ex. Literature, part-research for trading)
What trades will you attempt with who and when? (When to sell for gold ex. first opportunity or wait for more, specify the leader(s), waiting for a wonder to finish so the AI get failure gold)
Are we planning a Great Person bulb?
2. Dealing with AIs
Resource trade negotiations
Espionage assignment
Open borders (cancel or allow)
AI demands (resources, cancel trades, who do we send packing or not, technologies, war, religions, civics)
3. City placement - mostly in the beginning
Where are you planning on sending a settler?
Are you sending a worker along?
Is the land fogbusted/do we have an escort?
Initial city builds (Monument/Granary etc...)
Tile improvements around this city(food, hammers, commerce)
4. General micro
Special tile assignations (starve city for specialists, switch to growth etc.)
Tile swapping with other cities
Whips
Build order (infrastructure/military/settlers/workers/wealth/science)
Dealing with happy/health caps
Worker improvements and moves
5. Civics and Religion
Are you planning on civic switches/do we need to acquire the techs? (Caste for border pops, slavery for prod...)
Are we expecting a religion change?
6.War - if applicable
Refuse/accept AI war demands
Bribing civs to declare war or for stopping war
War plan (who, how many units and how to acquire them , which cities to strike, scouting prior to DoW,...)
7. Bigger picture
Gifts (city, gold, techs,...)
What AI do we try to please
Goals for the future
Diplo manipulation
Extras
What your plan should cover:
The plan must contain 2 detailed parts:
1. What you will check for every turn (EP, trades available, GPT available etc.) [this is easy]
2. Turn-by-turn worker moves, city micromanagement, unit movement and or general guidelines as to what we can't control via test game. [this is the hard part]
The team might at one point decide to slack on #2 once the game becomes well in hand.
How your set should go:
Play according to the plan
If something unexpected (or an opportunity) comes up, STOP AND CHECK WITH THE TEAM.
If you have to adapt, do so!
You can add markers in game during and at the end of your set. It's a lot easier on team members to figure where units are going.
If something unexpected comes up, you can (and possibly should) stop and make a short report to the team so we can decide how to move ahead
~~~~
What your set report should cover:
WHEOOHRN alerts and possible/likely targets
GGs in distant lands and Great Engineers
When to renegotiate trades
What you were planning for the future
How the plan worked out/didn't
Anything unexpected
kossin Sep 14, 2010, 04:04 PM Pre-Game Discussion
As we were waiting for the game, we started discussing our goals about 2 weeks prior to the start in a private forum.
Test Game
kossin
View profile
More options Sep 5, 3:18 pm
Hey,
you might have noticed the test game in the upload section. It was
created by Norvin_Green, I just stole it from his thread :D
Don't blame me if it's wrong though ;)
kossin
Reply Reply to author Forward
kossin
View profile
More options Sep 5, 5:18 pm
I've made a new test game, this one using the BUFFY_SG12 mod. Get it
here: http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/BUFFY_SG12.exe.zip
You will need it for the SGOTM and to open this save.
On Sep 5, 3:18 pm, kossin wrote:
- Show quoted text -
Reply Reply to author Forward
Bugg123
View profile
More options Sep 6, 3:06 am
Hi all!
To make extra sure Buffy doesn't trigger on anything "cheating", I
suppose the testgame should be renamed to something that doesn't
include SGOTM12 in the title, at least that was a tip in the GOTM
threads to avoid the mod to think you had been working on 2 different
versions of the same save... although I'm not really sure how much it
really matters....
Reply Reply to author Forward Report spam Rate this post:
kossin
View profile
More options Sep 6, 6:51 am
Makes sense, I'll rename it.
About the settings
kossin
View profile
More options Sep 6, 9:03 am
->One thing to notice is that since AIs will most likely start with
Recycling, they will be in the Modern Era -> they start with the
Modern Era bonuses, that is:
Instead of the usual 85% cost from the start, the AIs will get the
extra added 3% discount per era [4] -> 72% of the cost for everything!
(rounded down)
So a worker that normally costs 51H for an Emperor AI now costs 43H in
4000BC.
The Great Lighthouse is now only 144H.
An Archer is 18H.
Likewise, their tech cost is smaller.
->In the current test game, I've put everyone at war with everyone,
but we don't know the actual game settings - only that we are at war
with everyone.
->Fallout adds unhealthiness to a city, at a rate of -0.5/fallout.
->It takes 6 worker turns to clear fallout on regular terrain
->Moving on fallout costs 2 movement so you can't cross it with a
settler, move on it and clean right away (wish we were Indian again).
A road however will act as if there was no fallout.
->From Erkon: "It's not really classified, but the map will be
modified to have a suitable amount of tiles. Fractal with a bunch of
island will probably be close enough for playtesting." Indicates
watery map despite Low Seas setting.
Haven't figured out how to include pictures inside posts =\
Later on I would correct the discount numbers in another post.
Settling Location
kossin
View profile
More options Sep 6, 9:20 am
#1 Plains forest between the 2 silks.
#2 Grass forest between the 2 golds.
#3 On grass silk
#4 Settle in place (SIP)
#5 On the forest plains hill (PH)
#6 On the plains between the 2 cows, next to the clams.
#7 On the grass forest 1S of #6.
#8 On the grass forest, 1W of the rice.
#9 Wander out looking for something better
It seems clear that the game creator wants us to settle in spot #6
[2xcows, fish, clams, 2xgold]. While I don't see why we wouldn't want
to do that, we can at least explore the other 9 possibilities we now
see.
#1 Has no food that we can see. We settle on t3, grab 2 deserts in the
BFC and waste 1 forest. Bonus for being riverside. 11 fallout means 5
unhealthy so we waste 1 food.
#2 1 tile off the coast... enough said.
#3 1 tile off the coast... enough said.
#4 Has some merits. We get most of the good tiles, river access but 13
fallout (4 forests means no lost food early on). Sadly there's no
guarantee that the clams can be used from the screenshot and it forces
our hand on where to settle the fish.
#5 This location might work for city #2 if we have some healths
resources. Otherwise it loses 2 food/turn and is not viable with only
Rice as food.
#6 The obvious settling location. Loses 1 food to unhealthiness.
#7 Swaps Fish for Rice and loses 1 forest. 1 plains tile instead of a
2F1H1C tile from settling in #6. Also forces our hand on settling the
Fish, although less.
#8 Also loses 2 food/turn... not viable.
#9 With only a settler, it becomes increasingly risky to waste the
early game wandering about.
Start, Settling location
BIC
View profile
More options Sep 6, 9:18 am
Hi all,
At first, I wanted to settle 2N2W from where we are, on the desert
tile. But it seems we can't settle on fallout... The obvious solution
would be to train a worker before settling and go for that site then
but... I don't think we can do that.
That leaves very few locations :
-1 : In place. Can we quickly dismiss it since it would waste the
clams ?
-2 : On the southern coast. Not enough food, there.
-3 : 2N1E, getting Clams, Fish, 2 gold, 2 cows. With 6 specials,
that's a very strong position for the early game. A little less so for
the late game since we'd have 8 regular water tiles (not counting the
fish and clams).
-4 : 3N3W, getting the fish and the gold + 9-10 unknown land tiles
(train a worker while researching fishing and start clearing fallout
waiting for the relevant techs). That is a gamble... It would make it
possible to settle 2 cities in the peninsula we start in, with 1
distance upkeep for each of those cities. Additionnal benefits are we
would claim land more easily to the west and south west than if we
settled in location n°3.
Thoughts ?
3 & 4 seem worthy of consideration to me.
BIC.
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kossin
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More options Sep 6, 9:22 am
Almost a cross-post :)
1 - we can't guarantee it wastes the clams but we have a good idea
that it does.
2- as I said in my post, no!
3- seems like the only place to go.
4- that's fallout so not an option
On Sep 6, 9:18 am, BIC wrote:
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BIC
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More options Sep 6, 9:25 am
5- 1N1E. We leave the fish for another city and gain the rice. We also
have a lot more land tiles. Overall a better location than 2N1E, I
would guess.
We'd kinda be gambling that a city could be settled in the south
western part of the peninsula, though (meaning there would be seafood
or coastal land food).
Techwise, going for fishing while building a worker seems good to me.
All land specials need to be cleared from fallout first.
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kossin
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More options Sep 6, 9:29 am
5- 1N1E loses 2 food from the start due to fallout. Making a worker a
30 turns build.
6- 2N1E loses 1 food ... worker = 20 turns
On Sep 6, 9:25 am, BIC wrote:
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BIC
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More options Sep 6, 9:49 am
Hmm... Right !
I didn't consider the unhealthiness from the fallout (also didn't
realize 3N3W had no yield, hence fallout... eek).
That all kinda compells to settle 2N1E. Which, maybe, we shouldn't
compain about since an obvious settling position puts all teams on
equality.
Having 6 specials in the capital may prove troublesome, though. We
wouldn't whip citizens working on the gold mines, right ?
I think we'll have to find a way to share the tiles, which may mean
sharing the fish :(
1N1E makes it much easier to manage the gold mines. But you're right
about the worker. However, a workboat would take 15 turns to build in
both locations... and then gain 1N1E some health. Still a slower start
than 2N1E, though.
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kossin
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More options Sep 6, 9:55 am
Actually building the workboat is 22 turns as you have to factor in
the time to research Fishing =\
Anyway, I'll run some tests assuming we settle 2N1E on various
approaches... wb first, worker first, settler first.
I'm 99% certain that worker first will be best though.
On Sep 6, 9:49 am, BIC wrote:
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kossin
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More options Sep 6, 10:37 am
As we will know all 6 AIs from the start, we will receive tech
discounts as follows (assuming the game creator didn't mess with
these):
Churchill : Fishing, Mining
DeGaulle: The Wheel, Agriculture
Mao: Agriculture, Mining
Roosevelt: Fishing, Agriculture
Gandhi: Mysticism, Mining
Stalin: Mining
All 6 AIs know Hunting, Archery (presumably).
Hunting: Cathy starts with it
Mining: Cathy starts with it
Agriculture: 3
Fishing: 2
The Wheel: 1
Mysticism: 1
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kossin
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More options Sep 6, 10:41 am
By the way, if you haven't seen rolo's use of the Flying Camera, here
is a link to that post of his. We could theoretically gain map
knowledge starting on turn 0, given a few minutes.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9469871&postcount=67
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Nishant
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More options Sep 6, 1:50 pm
my trial
prioritizing a fast second settler
turn 2
settled -worker first, fishing-AH
turn 21
worker out-cow, AH in -BW next, workboat- working grass forest
turn 31
pasture built and worked, worker -second cow -remove fallout
turn 34
workboat out-fish, warrior next ,worker -cancel action- chop forest
scheduled
turn 37
1 turn from size 3, switched production -settler, worker 1 turn from
chop, next tech(?)
turn 38
worker returns to fallout cow
turn 40
revolt slavery
turn 41
settler whipped for 1 pop ,5 overflow ,warrior succeeding turn
turn 42
settler ready to get eaten by barbs :p
what do you think
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dingding
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More options Sep 6, 1:59 pm
It's quite messy above. To make it clean:
As I see it, the other options are easily excluded except:
- Settle in place
- 1N1E (but excluded for the 30-turn worker problem)
- 2N1E
Comparing the 2 options left, let's say Clam = Rice first, then:
- SIP:
Pros:
- Save 1 turn from settler move.
- Faster 1st worker (15 turns vs 20 turns)
- More workable tiles
- Permit another city for the Fish
- Early use of the Gold if start with 2 workers
- Potential Copper/Iron on the 1S hill (quite sure the map-designer
would have made it as a trade-off of giving up 2 sea food)
Cons:
- Food relatively limited = Production limited (if no copper/iron)
- Needs 2 workers in the start
- Eliminate the possibility to settle new city on the south
- Eliminate the possibility to make use of the Clam
- Give more restraints on GLH/ Colossus building
- Too much production in the early stage which can only be put into
Warriors
- 2N1E
Pros:
- Save 1 turn from worker moving to the Cow
- Good food supply = Production with 2 seafood
- Permit another city for Rice + 2 silk
- Easy for GLH + Colossus building
- Extra production can be put on workboats
Cons:
- Spend 1 more turns on settling
- Spend 5 more turns on 1st worker
- Need 2 workboats at the early stage
- Later use of the Gold
- Less workable tiles
- May miss a copper/iron for the cap
I just had one simple test, which leads me to the conclusion that SIP
is superior (research in particular) at the early stage and the late
stage (modern age eg., but by then, who cares?) and 2N1E can start to
be very powerful when the 2 seafood are available, but may have a
serious unhappiness problem if other luxuries are not found.
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dingding
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More options Sep 6, 2:00 pm
kossin can you delete the previous post? It's quite bloody...
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dingding
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More options Sep 6, 2:09 pm
@ nishant:
With Cathy's traits, spamming settlers is not really a problem so
maybe it isn't the first priority before exploring the area.
I'm thinking of a scenario like: settle 2N1E, Agriculture => Fish =>
AH, 1 worker => 1 wb => 3 pops worker => 4 pop settler to go settling
in the south, have to try myself.
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kossin
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More options Sep 6, 2:19 pm
On Sep 6, 2:00 pm, dingding wrote:
> kossin can you delete the previous post? It's quite bloody...
Done.
I think you can delete posts yourself.
Click on 'More Options' in the top right and then 'remove'.
@nishant
Barbarians are off in this game so no worries there!
@game
Another option is to build a scout first to start exploring. It will
slow our growth considerably so maybe we can put that to build #2?
There's supposed to be at least 1 AI on our landmass. Or we can out a
warrior to try and steal workers...
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hydraculas
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More options Sep 6, 2:40 pm
Hey, we can not build any improvements on the fallout!!!
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kossin
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More options Sep 6, 2:42 pm
Correct, we need to clean it first(6 turns) before adding
improvements. We are given Ecology at the start... hopefully the AI is
stupid and starts building Recycling Plants :D
On Sep 6, 2:40 pm, hydraculas wrote:
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hydraculas
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More options Sep 6, 2:45 pm
We are given Ecology at the start? That make sense.
On Sep 6, 1:42 pm, kossin wrote:
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hydraculas
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More options Sep 6, 3:19 pm
Considering the fallout, the unknown world, the rich resources from
N2E1 and the AIs at war from the beginning, I suppose we should make a
slower expansion.
Maybe we should not make settler until we have 3 workers. Speedup the
workers by chopping.
On Sep 6, 1:09 pm, dingding wrote:
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dingding
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More options Sep 6, 3:20 pm
@ hydra:
Hi!
In case you didn't notice, the settings of the game is here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=377115
Essential points:
- The world is full of fallout and we need to clean it all and win the
space race.
- We're given Ecology at the start permitting us to clean the fallout
from the beginning.
- All the AIs are AT WAR with us.
- At lease one AI is on the same continent.
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kossin
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More options Sep 6, 3:49 pm
Although SIP "loses" one Clam, SIP has many advantages, among other
the ability to share the gold with city #2 without stealing one of the
capital's food resources.
Moreover, as we are Creative, a cheap Library would be welcome early
to get started on an Academy ASAP.
We should consider The Oracle once again. Grabbing Civil Service from
The Oracle is probably an option - albeit dependent on the AIs
starting locations and fallout presence - on and would help this
capital tremendously via irrigation.
On Sep 6, 1:59 pm, dingding wrote:
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hydraculas
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More options Sep 6, 4:06 pm
While SIP may abandon the possiblity of GLH and Colossus. It seems
that SIP and N2E1 stand for two different strategy, SIP leans to a
land CIV and N2E1 leans to a coast CIV. The decision should be based
on the resources and fallout of the western land, which we know
nothing about for now.
So the decision just seems to be a gamble.
On Sep 6, 2:49 pm, kossin wrote:
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kossin
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More options Sep 6, 4:35 pm
The only thing we can say is there are islands on the map ->
Erkon said it is similar to a Fractal map with some islands. It is also LOW
sea level, meaning there is quite a bit of land available.
Chopping is a bummer as you get hit by a -1 health penalty as soon as 1
forest goes =\
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hydraculas
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More options Sep 6, 4:48 pm
1 forest goes is 0.5 health penalty.
We can not chop from beginning since the health penalty brought by the
fallout. But once the fallout around the capital is clear, why not ?
We can see 4 health resources by far and if we gain another wheat or
corn, health will not be a big problem until the Industrial Era.
On Sep 6, 3:35 pm, kossin wrote:
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kossin
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More options Sep 6, 4:58 pm
Yes, 0.5 but rounded down, so the first forest is worth 1 health.
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hydraculas
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More options Sep 6, 5:05 pm
yeah, and if we settle N2E1, we can chop 1 forest for free. (3
forests)
On Sep 6, 3:58 pm, kossin wrote:
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BIC
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More options Sep 6, 7:45 pm
Well, wherever we choose to settle (SIP or 2N1E), we will have two
gold tiles in the BFC and either :
- 6 specials with high food output ;
- 5 specials with lower food output.
--> It will be troublesome to 2pop whip or 3pop whip in the capital if
we don't share the gold tiles with another city.
That other city could only be :
- On the desert tile 1SW of the fish ;
- On the grassland tile 2W of the fish ;
- 2W of the starting position of the settler.
All of those locations have some merit (that will depend on the
surroundings, obviously) but, if we SIP, then the only choice will be
2W of the fish (not a bad location since it has a guaranteed top notch
food tile). If we settle 2N1E, we'd have more choices and we would
also work the best tile (fish) earlier.
I'm not convinced that the 1 commerce from the silk (if we SIP) would
make up for the commerce we would gain from seafood (if we go 2N1E).
What I have more trouble to weight is the loss of the clams vs gaining
5 turns on the first worker.... I don't imagine SIP being the better
options just yet, though... Putting an option on coastal wonders is a
bet, but a strong one.
kossin
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More options Sep 7, 9:40 am
As much as I hate to say this, I think our settling location will be
dictated by our strategy.
If we want to attempt GLH -> 2N1E
If we want something big from Oracle -> SIP
The thing I dislike about SIP is the limited food:
There are 5 Plains Hills, 1 Grass Hill, 1 desert, 1 plains tile that
can't be farmed prior to Biology.
Getting Civil Service early would be very important for settling here,
and we won't achieve large sizes before Biology/Sushi.
OTOH settling 2N1E/1N1E leaves mediocre terrain to the south that can
barely be used by another city (unless there's seafood present...
which I think there might just be).
~~~~
Let's look at the bigger picture:
Do we want to attempt corporations? I would imagine a Liberalism-
>Medicine slingshot.
We'd want to do this ASAP, meaning Corporation would be on our tech
list -> obsoleting the GLH.
Even then, the GLH will add early commerce which is more important.
However, its power will be diminished as having open borders with the
computers will be more difficult.
How about The Oracle? Can we both get it and GLH? Seeing as this is
Aggressive AI, wonder dates will be slowed down, further more if the
AIs are stuck in fallout as well. For example, I had it go in 900BC in
my last test.
I don't have that much experience with corporations and fast beelines
to the end game - hoping to hear from Duckweed sooner than later :)
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dingding
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More options Sep 7, 10:54 am
@ kossin :
Two things to add to your point about settlement:
- quite probable that there is a productive resource (copper/iron) as
a compensation of losing food (clam) (like SGOTM 11, game designer
won’t let you give up something for nothing.
- if settle 2N1E, rice + 2 silks + 1 (potential) copper/iron make a
good city spot.
About wonders:
- The Oracle: it’ll be a great boost if we can bulb CS with 2 golds +
Palace. However, I don’t like the way that One Short Straw performed
in SGOTM 11 (1 GS bulb Math + tech CoL; then Oracle => CS). As I
analysed, it’s a loss by using the first GS to bulb Math. It’s even
more true with a non-philosophic leader.
I provide 3 options with Oracle:
o 1: self-tech CoL+Maths and bulb CS with Oracle (it
depends how soon we can handle it)
o 2: self-tech CoL and bulb Philosophy with Oracle (no
big strategic advantage. But seems a good value of hammers: 1 hammer
on Oracle = 10 beakers
o 3: Oracle => Metal Casting (MC is the first tech
that can be considered as “big”, no? As I bet there may copper around,
we may make a hat-trick of Oracle + GLH + Colossus)
- GLH: There seems to be quite a lot of coastal sites around. Maybe a
powerful wonder. But need to check the starting save: if we are given
a –10 diplo minus at the beginning, we can only be able to OB with
Gandhi, in this way GLH will be much less prioritized.
Personally I dislike oracling a tech “bigger” than MC. (see my
comments on OSS’s Oracle strategy in SGOTM 11 at the end of our SGOTM
11 thread)
About Post-Liber beeline:
In my game with Peter, I tried to beeline to our UB first, that’s
Physics=>Biology=>Electricity=>Refrigeration, then Radio => Computers
=> Superconductor
This tech path is in fact very short. In fact it even ignores
Corporation. In addition, Cereal Mills is early available at this path
(Refrigeration) and we know our GM from Economy is available for that.
Otherwise there are other options of beaker-bonus corporations. But
their efficiency depends greatly on the resources available on the
map. To compare:
Standard Ethanol : 1 resource = 2 beakers
Cereal Mills : 1 resource = 0.5 food = 3 beakers
Sid's Sushi Co : 1 resource = 0.33 food = 2 beakers.
To note: there is a complicated mechanism of round-up and round-down
with that 0.5 food and 0.33 food.
On 7 sep, 15:40, kossin wrote:
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kossin
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More options Sep 7, 11:04 am
Metal Casting from Oracle seems a bit of a moot point... Forges are
expensive and won't pay for themselves in quite a while and trading
the tech is probably not going to be very worthwhile... another
possibility would be Currency. Of all the techs we can get from Oracle
(bar Civil Service), it probably is the most useful.
The risk is rather small too, considering we can finish Mathematics
relatively early.
The Corporations we select will depend on what resources are available
- if we go for corporations that is !
Laboratories are quite expensive in terms of hammers, how did you
build them? And what Peter game of yours are you making reference to?
On Sep 7, 10:54 am, dingding wrote:
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dingding
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More options Sep 7, 11:38 am
@ kossin:
I'm referring to the Peter game I played before (see my previous
post). I don't have the time to put it online yet. And there is no
spoiler/ picture showing in Google Group, which makes it a bit harder.
Oracling Currency may be good as well. But given the starting
position, MC => Colossus would be quite handy.
Laboratories are expensive, yes. But it's extremely powerful if get it
early (+25% research, +24 bpt @.@ and + 6 GPP per turn) let alone +50%
for spaceship buiding.
In my Peter game, all my cities can finish it within 10 turns, so 0%
slider for 10t doesn't hurt at all. And Laboratories can be used for
at least 50-60t, which make the investment very interesting (at least
8-10 beakers/hammer)
About Corporation: using a GM for corporation is a great investment as
well (equal 2100-2300gold). In addition to the cost of spreading
companies (120-150g per city) and maintenance cost, we need to think
of it carefully before making the final decision. I'll try to analyse
the investment of my Peter game when posting it online.
On 7 sep, 17:04, kossin wrote:
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hydraculas
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More options Sep 7, 7:07 pm
Hey it's Emperor and the AIs are struggling in fallout.
Let's just dreaming that the AIs act like barbarians since the fallout
and our Oracle bulb the nationalism and liberalism bulb the Military
tradition. GS bulb the other big techs(except CS and Music) .Then we
can use Cuirassiers fight aganist archers! :)
Well, just dreaming...
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kossin
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More options Sep 7, 8:23 pm
An interesting point, although I think Liberalism-ing a bigger tech
would still gain more turns overall.
On Sep 7, 7:07 pm, hydraculas wrote:
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hydraculas
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More options Sep 7, 8:29 pm
Of course, more turns overall.
Liberalism-ing is just an efficient way to gain techs and more techs
are always good, as we can take some of them to be chips.
On Sep 7, 7:23 pm, kossin wrote:
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Nishant
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More options Sep 7, 11:37 pm
i've got a feeling that stalin will be given monstrous land this time
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kossin
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More options Sep 8, 10:13 am
I'm not so certain about that. Remember, Stalin is the only leader
that requires complete elimination so they can't make him too godly.
Even if he is gifted Fission, he is still an Emperor AI with the weak
expansion where late cities don't get to contribute until way past
1000 :)
Opening - PART I
Duckweed
Sep 7, 9:14 pm
I might miss some of the posts and repeat what others mentioned.
Here's my initial thought when I saw the starting map.
Capital -- SIP is superior
For space race, a strong capital or a strong productive capital is
very important. SIP is the only choice, moving to coastal loses the
levee bonus and gains useless coastal and ocean tile.
Opening
Tech: Agri->AH->TW->Fishing seems obvious
Build
1) Worker->Warriors to size 2->2nd worker->2nd warrior->(3rd warrior
to size3 and then settler) or settler at size2 -- safer
2) Worker->Worker->warrior to size 2 or 3 ->Settler
Oracle
Could try CS this time
Liberalism
Aim for AL
Critical Techs
CS/Currency ->Edu ->AL ->Medicine -> Railroad
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kossin
Sep 8, 10:10 am
I remember trying both approaches.
Worker x2 is probably optimal but worker-warrior-partial warrior gets
us started on exploration - which we will be sorely lacking. We can
even make a scout as there are no barbarians to gain more knowledge of
the terrain.
Let's try to devise a 'plan' for the first ~50 turns and then one for
the larger picture (war, expansion, wonders, GPP). It is pretty clear
that corporations are the key to a fast spaceship, mixed in with a
good land gran via war. Heck, we can even make some razing/pillaging.
On Sep 7, 9:14 pm, Duckweed wrote:
kossin Sep 14, 2010, 04:21 PM Pre-Game Discussion continued...
Opening, PART II
Duckweed
Sep 8, 5:07 pm
If that AI is not too close and also starts with a bare settler, then
worker->worker opening is better since size 2 capital will hit into
unhealth before cleaning of 2 fallouts or connecting a cow. Scouting
is less important in this map as no matter how good is a site, we have
to settle close to capital early on and it's very likely we will
settle the 2nd city to claim the visible fish since it can help to
work 1 gold mine and could be a possible site for GLH. Scout is no
better than warrior for scouting if everywhere is filled with
fallout.
If we can come to an agreement of capital site, then we can start run
tests for 1st 50 turns.
My trial went with
Tech: Agri->AH->TW->Fishing->(BW->Sailing->Writing???)
Capital build:
Worker->2nd Worker->warriors to size 3 ->Settler->finish 3rd warrior-
>3rd worker or settler
2nd city -- Fish/Gold (WB on gold mine->LH)
On Sep 8, 10:10 am, kossin wrote:
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kossin
Sep 8, 5:33 pm
I agree with SIP. The possibility of hidden resources is great...
furthermore if you look at the forests it makes an X =D (yea, bad excuse!)
As the last game showed, early turns cascade into a lot. Settling 2N1E/1N1E
delays the start by at least 6 turns for the first worker, and then some...
meaning at t30 you're about 10 turns behind on production.
We can try the Flying Camera trick to get an idea of the landmass to our
west before playing... that's the only thing that could theoretically give
information on the possible closeness of said AI.
Worker->worker is the best use of hammers/food but...
worker->warrior to size 2 ->worker adds slightly more commerce and of course
gives over 10 turns of scouting (I forget the exact numbers but the first
warrior is out on t23).
A scout would get slightly better scouting. There can't be fallout on every
tile... that'd be stupid from the mapmaker. Still, a warrior can steal a
worker given the chance (in a test, I was able to get a ceasefire and steal
a worker).
GLH in second/third city should be no problem if we find a decent site.
I think we should play until at least the second city is settled once we've
made up our mind. There should be a decent amount of scouting done by then
so we can update the test game a bit and see how to proceed ahead.
kossin
Sep 8, 8:05 pm
With worker->worker we already end up 3 worker turns short by t39. (gold
mine incomplete by 3 turns, cows hooked up). Furthermore, there is more
missing when we settle the second city, the capital will be working an
unimproved tile for some time (2F1H1C presumably). That is unless the second
city can somehow come up with a good tile to work on from size 0 while
workers catch up.
It looks like:
worker>worker>warrior>warrior>settler>worker (done at t51)
The first warrior comes a t33, exactly 10 turns after worker->warrior to
size 2.
Techwise, I've been doing Ag>AH>TW>Fishing>BW (we can try timing the revolt
on a turn where we get unhealthy or have an unimproved tile).
Duckweed
Sep 8, 10:00 pm
If you start the settler at size 3 (the 3rd citizen can work at the 3H
tile, which in fact produces 5H for the settler), then 2nd city can
work on the improved gold mine from beginning.
Whether to start 3rd worker or 2nd settler depends on what we can find
in the southern ocean. If a seafood tile found, then a 3rd city as
soon as possible is preferred since the site 3S1E is a better site for
GLH. Therefore I think a stop after the 2nd border pop is needed for
possible revision of plan. However I suggest to continue on the play
instead of uploading the save, people can easily found out where you
settled from the culture chart.
The prediction thing rolo1 posted should reveal very little
information in this game. The opponents are known, we starts in the
eastern edge, the only direction to scout is westbound. Whether the
opponents have coastal start has little impact on our strategy, we
will go for GLH and will try our best to grab it regardless.
BTW, are you sure AI will get modern era bonus? One thing I'm sure is
that AI does not get the same bonus for the world wonders as normal
buildings. I don't exactly know the math, but I remember that even
immortal AI only get ~20% discount on wonders in modern era.
Can we set the roster now? I don't have preference.
Where's other members? (-: Let's vote for the capital site 1st and
move on the opening micro.
On Sep 8, 8:05 pm, kossin wrote:
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kossin
Sep 8, 10:43 pm
> If you start the settler at size 3 (the 3rd citizen can work at the 3H
> tile, which in fact produces 5H for the settler), then 2nd city can
> work on the improved gold mine from beginning.
Yea, that's what I'd been doing for the settler.
> Whether to start 3rd worker or 2nd settler depends on what we can find
> in the southern ocean. If a seafood tile found, then a 3rd city as
> soon as possible is preferred since the site 3S1E is a better site for
> GLH. Therefore I think a stop after the 2nd border pop is needed for
> possible revision of plan. However I suggest to continue on the play
> instead of uploading the save, people can easily found out where you
> settled from the culture chart.
Good points on all.
Do like OSS did in the last SGOTM and upload in the thread but not on the
server. The save shouldn't be uploaded until several turns after the second
city is settled so it becomes hard to tell.
> The prediction thing rolo1 posted should reveal very little
> information in this game. The opponents are known, we starts in the
> eastern edge, the only direction to scout is westbound. Whether the
> opponents have coastal start has little impact on our strategy, we
> will go for GLH and will try our best to grab it regardless.
It could help to see if there are some land ranges to the east (islands) and
maybe get a small idea about the land shape but that's about it... anyway we
shouldn't spend more than an hour or two analyzing the start.
> BTW, are you sure AI will get modern era bonus? One thing I'm sure is
> that AI does not get the same bonus for the world wonders as normal
> buildings. I don't exactly know the math, but I remember that even
> immortal AI only get ~20% discount on wonders in modern era.
For units/buildings it is as I said, I infiltrated the test game with Great
Spies and the discounts are as I said earlier, ~70% of the cost. (21H for a
wb, 35H for a barracks, 17H for Archer, 43H worker)
For settlers, the cost appears to be 95H instead of 100H, but that isn't
surprising as the cost is tied to the food bar.
For Wonders, I was wrong, the discount is 85% apparently. (102H for
Stonehenge instead of 120H), basically 1%+2%+3%+4%+5% from each era,
ignoring the difficulty bonus.
> Can we set the roster now? I don't have preference.
Sure. *Does anyone have a roster preference?* Make it known now so we can
decide this ASAP.
Arbitrarily I'd put:
Bugg123
hydraculas
nishant1911
dingding
BornInCantaloup
Duckweed
kossin - This gives me more time early on to work on the test game =D
The first set (25 turns then another ~30) should be rather quick so if
someone doesn't have a lot of time in the coming 2 weeks it might be a good
idea to take that one.
I would like to follow a stricter schedule than last time, this game will
have more turns overall, maybe 100 extra, more or less... about 300 to be
conservative. (gets us to 1800s)
24 hours for drawing the big lines (what are the goals -> techs, cities,
units).
24 hours for plans
24 hours for revisions then play
If we can keep 1 round/96 hours we should do fine.
*To hasten the process, I suggest the person playing the set proposes the
big lines for the next set. This way there's no delay and everyone can start
voting/voicing different ideas.*
For set length, I think we can do 7 rounds/month or so so if we plan for 250
turns after the first quick set and 3 months that gives just over 10
turns/set. Therefore I suggest we do 15 turns for the first pass through the
roster and then move to 10 turns... we can move to 10 earlier if it begins
to be too much or split the set in 2 as we did before.
> Where's other members? (-: Let's vote for the capital site 1st and
> move on the opening micro.
Busy, most likely :)
They'll post eventually, I have no doubt.
hydraculas
Sep 9, 3:21 am
After a few simulations about the opening, I'm quite sure that I will
stand for SIP. Due to the fewer turns of starting worker and the other
health factors, SIP will develop much faster than N2E1 at the
beginning, and this is vital.
Through my simulations, I found that the rhythm of the game may be
much slower than we could imagine. A worker will take 6 turns to clear
the fallout and at least another turn to overcome the additional
movement cost ( fallout movement cost 2). For example, a worker will
take 6+1+4=11turns to complete a single pasture or gold mine, which is
nearly triple as the normal turns, even more.(Considering the other
inconvenience of moving caused by the fallout) This fact will lead to
the decline of a single worker's work efficiency. If we still wanna
maintain a city's level of development, to make each of the population
working on the improvement, we may need double workers or even more
just to catch up the growing speed of population.
That is the main reason that I think we should make a slower
expansion, which I mentioned before. Not to mention the other factors
such as the unknown world to the west, rich resources from the birth
place which should be taken use of early and the AIs AT WAR with us. I
suppose we should not make settler until we have 3 workers and 5
population, even more.
Here is a simulation for the early 42 turns, whether the PH south to
SIP have copper or not will decide the next move.
turn1 SIP build city, make worker, tech AGR->AH -> TW -> BW ( I put TW
foword the BW in order to obtain the health resources, if not, the
city will get a unhealthy penalty since pop2 )
t15 worker1 finished, then worker2. worker1 move to the right pasture
( After finished the 2nd pasture, it's closer to the gold mine)
t26 1st pasture finished, worker1 move to the north pasture, pop1 work
on pasture
t29worker2 finished, then scout/worrier ->worrier -> worrier , worker2
move to the pasture
t34 2nd pasture finished, 1 worker move to south->GM, then both of the
worker take 2 turns to build road(the road will get cow and let a
worker go to the gold mine without waste of movement)
t35 pop2
t39 pop3, change worrier to worker
t41 gold mine finished
t42 BW finished and 2 workers will decide where to go, 2 turns to the
3rd worker
One thing need to discuss: shall we start the 3rd worker at t35? it
will makes the 3rd worker 3 turns early, but pop3 comes later and use
the gold mine later.
On Sep 8, 9:43 pm, kossin wrote:
...
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dingding
Sep 9, 4:19 am
Hi I'm here :)
I change my mind to accept SIP cause I prefer early production to
early food due to low happiness cap. ( based on the assumption that
game designer won't let us give up a food for nothing)
When SIP is decided, the macro for the first 42t is easy, basically
like hydraculas suggested.
2-workers first strategy is OK for me, as well as tech path: Agri =>
AH => TW => Fishing/BW and 3 pop settler.
I feel obligation to mention that GLH is not yet justified: it
depends
on the landmass we have.
The choice of Oracling is basically among MC, Currency and CS. This
can be discussed later.
About Tech path in the later game:
I made a mistake in my previous posts in kossin's thread, the beeline
to UB is even shorter than that:
Physics => Electricity, Biology => Refrigeration, Superconductors
I hope for libering Superconductors, which is the most expensive tech
at this path, and one of the most expensive tech we can get from
Liber.
Duck's path (AL ->Medicine -> Railroad) seems very production-
prioritized (and corporation-oriented, if I understand correctly) to
me. Nevertherless as I see it, this SGOTM 12 is quite similar to
SGOTM
11, a race for beakers instead of production. A beaker-prioritized
choice seems better.
About roster:
I'm Ok to be put there.
On 9 sep, 04:00, Duckweed wrote:
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BIC
Sep 9, 5:46 am
The roster is ok with me ; I don't have any preference.
No complaints about SIP.
I didn't consider unhealthiness at first... We gain 6 turns which is a
lot and your argument about a better lategame capital is fair (10
water tiles is a waste, right).
I won't have time to run a test before next week. As a matter of fact,
I'll be away until sunday at least.
Anyways...
Do you plan to farm the rice early on ?
I'm wondering whether researching Agriculture first is truly needed.
Maybe it is better, since it's a tech we can't skip forever, but maybe
it isn't :
If we skip Agriculture, we can start researching Sailing/Masonry or
Priesthood earlier. Sailing may be key here. Besides the GLH, there's
also the instant connexion between cities. Not having to clear fallout
+road to cities before settling would save a lot of worker turns
(altough we'd want to road at some point, anyways).
About workers...
3 workers allow to build 1 improvement every 5 turns (1 turn for
moving, 2 turns for clearing, 2 turns for improving&roading).
That seems pretty crucial to get early but I don't see the problem if
the 2nd city is settled before the gold mine is done. It can work a 2H
tile for 3 turns... we wouldn't lose a lot and that would still be the
fastest way to get a workboat.
About capital city...
If we want to grow it to size 5+... We may want an early Pottery. We
don't have super food resources, which makes a Granary more attractive
than normal.
I'd be happy at first with a size 4 capital (maximum) but between size
3 and size 4, what do we gain ? A non irrigated rice, probably. So I
can see the advantages of a settler @ size 3. Especially with 2 cows
and being imperialistic.
Good fun discussing the opening,
See you next week,
BIC.
On Sep 9, 10:19 am, dingding wrote:
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Bugg123
Sep 9, 7:42 am
Hi!
I'm here, but totally swamped with work atm, so I don't feel I have
much to add. The SIP plan seems good to me.
As for roster, it's probably ok for me to do the first set when the
time comes (I probably can't lose us the game those turns anyways, I
hope :)).
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BIC
Sep 9, 8:03 am
A few additions before leaving :
1- Delaying Agriculture.
I'm confident you'll dismiss that idea easily enough.
Agriculture is a prereq to both Pottery and AH...
2- Settling the 2nd city asap.
If it is connected to our trade network, the 2nd city is a net gain in
production, sure, but also in beakers, provided it works a 1C tile. If
we have fishing and a road, I can't see a reason to delay it.
3- AIs start at war with us.
They also start without a military force. I don't think we need to be
overly cautious.
Because we start at war, it is likely that strategic resources will be
easily accessible.
What would be really nice is to have horses in the 2nd/3rd city to
send 1-2 chariots out. Stealing workers won't get us any diplomatic
minus and the no barbs setting means we won't need to escort stolen
workers back to our territory.
BIC.
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kossin
Sep 9, 9:26 am
So far we have 6 in favor of SIP, awaiting a vote from nishant1911.
Therefore it is a no brainer to decide that we will SIP.
Now as for the testing, there are 2 suggested approaches:
1) worker>worker>warriors to 3>settler>worker/settler
2) worker>worker>warriors to 3>worker>warriors/something else to 5>settler
Each having its own advantages.
The merits of 1) compared to 2) are mainly that we will have a second/third
city up sooner.
The merits of 2) compared to 1) are mainly that we will have a better
capital in the short run and that worker micro will be easier.
Just looking at it on paper is hard for me to tell which is better, but I
suspect that pushing back the settling of the second city is bad as it
leaves the capital with too much to do in the expansion phase. Anyway, I
personally need to run tests with both approaches to see where they land us
but anyone putting up the math being the approaches could easily convince me
and probably everyone else.
So far everyone agrees with the roster - don't hesitate to ask for swaps if
you find that you are unavailable in the coming days/week. Remember,
*communication
is the most important part of a team.*
The other thing I want to mention is Research path, mainly skipping
Agriculture. In my tests, I didn't improve the Rice for a long time as it is
too cumbersome for little added benefit.
Skipping Agriculture would give us AH on t12, compared to t19... meaning 7
turns earlier. What I mean is that it gives us Bronze Working 7 turns
earlier as well, with the possibility of 7 more turns of working a copper
mine early on. As early commerce isn't a trouble here with 2 gold mines, I
think it might be worth it. It is a gamble though as with 7 resources in the
BFC it might be asking for too much :)
This would mean that growing the capital to size 5 would be out of the
question most likely as it would take too much time.
On Liberalism:
It is still early to tell. Maybe it will be decided by the GPs we get and
the resources available on the map, we will have a clearer picture after 100
turns.
Duckweed
Sep 9, 9:30 am
On Sep 9, 8:03 am, BIC wrote:
> A few additions before leaving :
> 1- Delaying Agriculture.
> I'm confident you'll dismiss that idea easily enough.
> Agriculture is a prereq to both Pottery and AH...
Adding more, we definitely need to farm the rice after 2cows and 2
mines.
> 2- Settling the 2nd city asap.
> If it is connected to our trade network, the 2nd city is a net gain in
> production, sure, but also in beakers, provided it works a 1C tile. If
> we have fishing and a road, I can't see a reason to delay it.
Yes, I have been think of whether to start the settler at size 2 or 3.
I think size 3 is slightly better, although it delays the settler by 3
turns, the capital produce more hammers and the 2nd city can work on
the improved gold mine from the turn it settled.
> 3- AIs start at war with us.
> They also start without a military force. I don't think we need to be
> overly cautious.
> Because we start at war, it is likely that strategic resources will be
> easily accessible.
> What would be really nice is to have horses in the 2nd/3rd city to
> send 1-2 chariots out. Stealing workers won't get us any diplomatic
> minus and the no barbs setting means we won't need to escort stolen
> workers back to our territory.
I guess either horse and/or Copper in capital culture border.
On Sep 9, 4:19 am, dingding wrote:
> Hi I'm here :)
> I change my mind to accept SIP cause I prefer early production to
> early food due to low happiness cap. ( based on the assumption that
> game designer won't let us give up a food for nothing)
> When SIP is decided, the macro for the first 42t is easy, basically
> like hydraculas suggested.
It seems that hydraculas advocated 3 worker start.
> 2-workers first strategy is OK for me, as well as tech path: Agri =>
> AH => TW => Fishing/BW and 3 pop settler.
> I feel obligation to mention that GLH is not yet justified: it
> depends
> on the landmass we have.
> The choice of Oracling is basically among MC, Currency and CS. This
> can be discussed later.
Either CoL or CS since Buero is huge in this game.
Right, production, especially production in capital is extremely
important because there's no doubt we will do wonder spam in capital
again. Levee + factory + power doubt the production. We will probably
start continuous GAs at that time, the production will be huge across
entire empire at that time. Think about this way, how many hammers can
you gain from early AL? plus earlier access to wonders. My play in
BOTM33 gave me a deep impression how an empire with 10% sustainable
science slider turned to 100% sustainable science slider with building
wealth and GA.
BTW, I think my performance in BOTM 29 was one with less mistakes, I
achieved a 1650AD space victory. There should be no problem of
achieving pre-1600AD victory if not pursuing gold at the same.
Report spam Rate this post:
dingding
Sep 9, 10:42 am
@ Duckweed:
On 9 sep, 15:56, Duckweed wrote:
> On Sep 9, 4:19 am, dingding wrote:
> Right, production, especially production in capital is extremely
> important because there's no doubt we will do wonder spam in capital
> again. Levee + factory + power doubt the production. We will probably
> start continuous GAs at that time, the production will be huge across
> entire empire at that time. Think about this way, how many hammers can
> you gain from early AL? plus earlier access to wonders. My play in
> BOTM33 gave me a deep impression how an empire with 10% sustainable
> science slider turned to 100% sustainable science slider with building
> wealth and GA.
> BTW, I think my performance in BOTM 29 was one with less mistakes, I
> achieved a 1650AD space victory. There should be no problem of
> achieving pre-1600AD victory if not pursuing gold at the same.
Yes Factory+Coal Plant+GA's bonus is huge. It also ignores SM which is
quite annoying.
Beeline to Superconductors afterwards works well as well to me.
Medicine is likely to be unnecessary since Recycle centre is already
available.
Don't think we'll have all the resources to wonder-spam this time.
Report spam Rate this post:
kossin
Sep 9, 10:45 am
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 10:42 AM, dingding wrote:
> Yes Factory+Coal Plant+GA's bonus is huge. It also ignores SM which is
> quite annoying.
> Beeline to Superconductors afterwards works well as well to me.
> Medicine is likely to be unnecessary since Recycle centre is already
> available.
> Don't think we'll have all the resources to wonder-spam this time.
Medicine would be for Sid's Sushi, provided enough seafood/rice.
kossin
Sep 9, 11:02 am
Some tests:
3-workers approach
t35 start 3rd worker
Improve cow-cow-rice-gold-gold
t48 totals: 72F (size 4), 244H
City #2 comes in at t55
2-worker approach
t40 start settler (the overflow from the 3rd warrior makes the settler take
1 turn less so it comes out on the same turn as starting on t39)
Improve cow-cow-gold-gold
t48 totals: 52F(size 3 with 6 stored), 267H (counting settler as 75H as 1/4
of the cost is made from food conversion)
City #2 comes in at t48
Without a granary, 3-worker option seems to come out behind about 10 hammers
worth. It will only catapult from there as the earlier second city will add
to commerce, food and hammers.
hydraculas
Sep 9, 12:49 pm
About 2-worker approach(3 pop settler) and 3-worker approach(settler
later), we can see like this:
As u said, the earlier second city will add to commerce, food and
hammers, that's true. However, it will make no production benefits to
the capital, which is the only settler factory at beginning. 7 turns
ahead of City#2 , for example, will gain 7 turns of production from
gold mine in city#2 , while lose 4 turns of the production from pop4(a
very powerful pop4, maybe copper/gold/rice) and numerous turns of
worker3. Although it can gain city2 faster, it will delay city3(unless
u wanna make city3 at pop3 either) and 3rd, 4th, 5th ... worker.
Without the support of enough workers, a fast expansion is not so
efficient. Just like I said before, u need double workers or more to
clear the fallout and catch up the speed of growing speed of
population.
Whether we have copper may differ a lot. I lean to a 5 pop settler/
worker booming with the copper(2 pastures,1 copper,1 gold,1 rice/mine)
and a 4 pop booming without the copper.(2 pastures,1 rice/mine, 1gold)
With a 3-worker start, we can even chop 2 forest to speed up the
settler/worker later when healthy.
On Sep 9, 10:02 am, kossin wrote:
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kossin
Sep 9, 3:17 pm
4th pop on Rice is kinda weak, it only adds 2H towards settlers/workers per
turn. However you need it to have a reasonable growth time to 4 pop.
With the possibility of Horses or Copper, growth to size 4 is more
interesting, that's certain.
If there is a good site for city #3 (as Duckweed mentioned, 3S1E if seafood
is present) then again yes the earlier it is made the better but it does
start to stretch workers quite a bit by then.
Presumably we'd have city #2 build a wb for the Fish, grow to 2 and then
build a worker to help.
If we all agree on Ag>AH>TW then there is no problem making tests from t27
when research is done.
I like the 3 worker approach, it feels more in control - but I'll trust the
math more than my instinct.
I will try comparing the numbers from t48 and on with and without copper
(I'll pick the worse tile to be conservative) in a few hours.
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 12:49 PM, hydraculas wrote:
Duckweed
Sep 9, 8:54 pm
It's good that kossin is willing to run tests to see the difference
with math.
2nd city as soon as possible is a rule of thumb in most situations,
that's why I have thought about whether to start settler at size 2 to
gain 3 turns. Settling of good city (i.e more than 1 good tile) has
the snowball effect on hammer and commerce gain since you can start to
work on more good tiles earlier). The fish city also could be the site
for GLH, 7 turns could be critical.
To get a good chance of CS sling from Oracle, we can only settle no
more than 4 cities (possibly 3 cities) before that. Therefore commerce
is still a limited factor before the oracle gamble. There also the
schedule of 1st GS -- either from capital or or fish city. I'm still
wondering about the tech path -- do we want to try both oracling CS
and GLH (extra techs of sailing and masonry) or focus on oracling CS.
It will be good to find out the possible completion date.
@dingding
I agree that GLH won't contribute that much as last game, but it's
still a good gain as I can see the possibility of quite a few number
of coastal cities.
On Sep 9, 3:17 pm, kossin wrote:
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dingding
Sep 10, 5:28 am
My first idea is also to settle the first city ASAP, especially it can
use the gold immediately upon settlement. There seems to be no doubt
that it’s the best beaker-prioritized solution, which is crucial for
oracling CS.
Opening requires Agriculture, AH, TW, BW, Fishing, Pottery(712B)
Oracling CS requires Mysticism, Meditation(or Poly), PH, Writing,
Maths and CoL (1417B)
In addition to GLH, two more techs required: Sailing and Masonry
(280B).
Considering our economy can be 24-28gpt with 2 cities , so around
26bpt (before Library) and 32bpt (after Library). GLH will costs about
8 turns of our Oracling to our CS.
Options are:
1. Oracling CS and build GLH at the same time. (ideal one, but the
most risky one)
2. Oracling CS and build GLH afterwards (second optimum option)
3. Oracling CoL and build GLH.
4. Oracling CS and don’t build GLH.
For the 1st and 2nd ones: need tests and AI information to justify the
feasibility.
To compare the 3rd option to the 4th one:
- GLH: suppose that GLH is built at t80, we have 6 coastal cities (3
built after t80: at 90t, 100t and 110t). GLH gives each city 2cpt at
average. And GLH is obsolete at t200 and I suppose 1 beaker in t N =
1.018 beaker in t N+1. GLh gives a “discounted beaker flow” = 805
beakers.
- CS: Gains 702 beakers by oracling CS instead of CoL. Accelerate CS
at least by 20 turns. Gains from CS: 15cpt = 23 bpt. So “discounted
beaker flow” = 702 + NPV(1.8%; 23 during 20turns) = 1085 beakers.
Not to mention the cost of GLH and the production bonus of Bureau in
the cap. Clearly Oracling CS is superior to GLH. (GLH needs double
coastal cities or more foreign traderoad to beat oracling CS.)
I'll edit the reserved posts with actual content tomorrow.
For now, any further discussion should move here!
Please let us know you've found the thread by posting anything you'd like to. Otherwise I'll pm you in 24 hours and write angry letters that I will burn before anyone can read it!
Duckweed Sep 14, 2010, 05:46 PM Check in.
The answers to BIC's question, feel free to ask as I might not describe clearly.
0) 2 workers vs 3 workers start.
I have a slight preference for.... hmmm.... I have mostly questions on
this point since I can't see the "better" option yet, I can see the
trade offs.
2 workers comes ahead in commerce. If we want to Oracle CS, this will
have my preference.
On the other hand, 3 workers comes ahead in production (REX, macro/map
control, military). It is also very flexible to have that early size 5
capital. Depending on the quality of the 3rd site, it may be the
better choice. Also, what would be the importance of an early war/
choke ? If it is important, 3 workers may be better.
3 workers allows for more options but maybe it is too "fair" for a
SG...
Here is the conclusive support for 2 worker start I posted.
"2nd city as soon as possible is a rule of thumb in most situations,
that's why I have thought about whether to start settler at size 2 to
gain 3 turns. Settling of good city (i.e more than 1 good tile) has
the snowball effect on hammer and commerce gain since you can start to
work on more good tiles earlier). The fish city also could be the site
for GLH, 7 turns could be critical."
To explain more, the settling of new city usually increases the maintenance fee and hence lower your science slider, in another word, you gain hammers from the new city but lose beakers due to maintenance fee. However, 2nd city is an exception in most cases, because if the second city is settled close to the capital and has trade route available, then it will add at least 3 commerce (2 from trade route and 1 from city center, which does not counting the yield from the 1st citizen) to the empire. 3+ commerce is usually more than the maintenance fee except that you settle the 2nd city too far away, which is a very rare case. Therefore, 2nd city is an absolute gain in either hammers or commerce. There's more -- the snowball effect -- if we settle the fish city 6 turns earlier, then it will grow to size 2~5 (happy cap) 5~6 turns earlier, which means the yield from 5 citizens 5~6 turns (imagine how many hammers and commerce). My last reason stands for itself, remember how we struggled to gain 3 turns earlier of GLH with 2 pop whip in SGOTM11. Hydroculas emphasized the earlier worker and later settler from capital. It's true for 3rd worker and that's all. As I mentioned, if there's seafood in southern coast, I prefer another settler immediately. Since we want CS from Oracle, we could not settle more than 3 cities before Oracle (the exception is that there's another gold site nearby), so what's the good of earlier settler after 3 cities?
1) What tech do we want from Oracle?
Say we want to Oracle CS... What do you build in the capital while
teching Maths/CoL ? Bear with me, I've never Oracled CS.
This is kinda related to point 2. The build could be the GLH, or could
be the Pyramids... What if it is not ? Isn't there a risk we will just
build units, especially if we skip Pottery ?
After SGOTM11, I remember that DingDing was suspicious about OSS way
to bulb Mathematics and then to Oracle CS. Maybe they bulbed Maths
precisely because they lacked some cool stuff to build ?
Overall, I don't feel super enthusiastic to plan to Oracle CS on turn
0. I feel we lack some map knowledge, whick makes the move very risky.
There's lot to build in capital -- Lib, Oracle itself, worker, settler, barrack and units, or even wonders for cash. CS is huge in this map. Just name a couple of reasons:
1. 2 gold mines become 3 gold mines
2. dry rice becomes wet rice (our capital is screaming for food)
I don't know what kind of map knowledge can help you make the decision?
2) Do we want GLH and how's the plan?
I'd want it, yes. However, same as for the Oracle, I'd rather have
some info on the map before carving this choice in stone.
If we want it, I'm not sure we would need to rush. If we go for
Oracle-->CS, then I guess we could build either the Pyramids/GLH while
researching the Classical techs.
GLH won't be that powerful as last game, probably only half or 1/3, but still a good gain. The major question is whether we want a better chance of GLH at the cost of higher risk of oracling CS?
3) Tech path :
Last SG, we delayed Pottery until... late. Given our food poor/
production heavy capital, I may be in favour of an early Granary.
Especially if there's a lot of land to settle, but we can't know that
yet.
"Agri->AH->TW" is ok with me. Fishing next depends on point 0
(2workers vs 3workers start).
Pottery is good, but it's not necessary in the route to CS. Our capital is food poor, hence it's not good to whip it. Also remember the happy cap is 6 before we have Monarchy or mids (if we can find stone). Capital has many good tiles to work and it's no good to whip away citizens working them.
I'm not giving you any clear answers right now... I'll try to get a
better understanding of point 0 by tomorrow. This is where all choices
spring from, right ?
Not exactly, point 0 stand alone for itself.
kossin Sep 14, 2010, 08:34 PM Pre-Game discussion continued...
Opening, Part III
dingding
Sep 10, 5:33 am
In addition to the first GS:
The 2nd city can easily build a Library. If food is enough (1 fish
seems a bit insufficient though), GS can be born here if needed. Early
CS+ Academy+2 golds in the cap is terrifying.
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kossin
Sep 10, 7:29 am
Nice analysis.
I think we can count on opening borders with a few AIs at some point
though, which would augment the value of GLH. Or even settle 3~4
islands to double its yield.
Another thing to consider is the usefulness of early Sailing, allowing
to disregard a lot of roads. The cost might not justify the benefits
but with fallout we need to keep new cities healthy. The hammers saved
on extra workers can go on libraries.
My estimate would land us Oracle>CS around 800BC, give or take some
turns. It is kinda late for normal Emperor but if the AIs are plagued
by fallout, it is good enough.
I haven't had the time to look at the math beyond t48 yet but I'll do
that today or tomorrow.
On Sep 10, 5:28 am, dingding wrote:
dingding
Sep 10, 8:08 am
The foreign traderoads will be limited in this game because AI's slow
expansion + diplo minus + war mode + uncertainty of contact
(difficulty of OB and intercontinental contact). I think at the early
stage, 2 traderoads (+ Currency) can cover all the international TR so
the extra 2 from GLH will be domestic TR.
Sailing can certainly not pay for itself if only for linking cities.
kossin
Sep 10, 8:14 am
I agree with everything in your previous post, I just wanted to point out
that there was a likelihood that the actual benefit would be slightly higher
overall. Even if there's only 1 extra trade route worth 2 commerce instead
of 1, that's ~100 commerce over 100 turns.
Duckweed
Sep 10, 8:45 am
Pottery is not necessary in the path to CS, we could skip it.
If we skip Sailing and Masonry now, the chance to get GLH will be
greatly decrease. Even the fish city can start LH and GLH right after
WB, the estimated time to complete it is ~500BC, that also depend
whether there's another productive tile. GLH might contribute more to
the empire if there are islands to be settled.
I am still unclear of the tech path after Fishing, If we want to take
the risk for both CS and GLH, then I think Sailing->Writing->Masonry/
BW seems better. Sailing is worthy to go as the reason kossin pointed
out and LH also empowers the fish city. I don't like to produce more
than 3 warriors as they will just eat cash later on. It would be best
if the timing of research can let the fish city start LH right after
WB and capital start Lib after the 3rd worker and 2nd settler.
On Sep 10, 5:28 am, dingding wrote:
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kossin
Sep 10, 8:55 am
Just tried a few tests:
-2 workers opening
Ag>AH>TW>Fishing>Writing>BW. Writing BW as you'll grow from size 3 to size 4
on the library.
-3 workers opening
Ag>AH>TW>BW>Fishing>Writing
Assuming no Bronze
we have
t48
2worker : capital 2 cows, 1 silk (4F2H,4F2H,2F1H1C) + second city 1 gold
(3H,8C, 2F1H1C from city+2C trade route) vs. 3worker: capital 2 cows, 1
rice, 1 gold (4F2H,4F2H,4F,3H7C)
12F8H12C/turn vs 12F7H7C (maybe 12F7H8C if you can manage to get the
riverside gold improved instead)
During the next 6 turns 3workers yield doesn't improve in either food or
hammers [working on settler], only commerce on t52 when the second gold
comes online adding 7/8 commerce. Meanwhile 2-workers opening grows to size
4 by t54.
2-workers is already ahead in hammers+commerce by t54 and 3-workers will
never be able to catch up as both have the same growth potential from then,
with the addition of 2-workers already having 6/7 turns ahead of a second
city.
Without Bronze 2-workers is better (unless I did something wrong and we want
to chop early).
With a Bronze tile, I suspect it becomes trickier where we will be comparing
hammers to commerce. Writing>BW is faster than BW>Writing of course if we
finish the library before BW is done.
Anyway, no time to check the numbers if there is bronze present, anyone can
do it :)
dingding
Sep 10, 8:57 am
Just to make it clearer:
I didn't use the notion of "Total beakers" this time but "Discounted
beakers", which is based on the assumption that 1 beaker in Turn N =
1.018 beakers in Turn N+1. (Why 1.8%? It's another theory that I'll
talk about another time. Around 1.8%-2.0% is appropriate to me)
So maybe 100 commerce during Turn N and Turn N+100 is like 47 commerce
in Turn N.
This theory promotes the short-term / middle-term interests (Snowball
effect) and disadvantage the long-term ones. I think it's quite valide
for a "boost tech" like CS. (And remember in SGOTM 8, MW oracled CS
instead of Electricity?
It's true that if we can settle one offshore city, GLH is quite close
to Oracling CS; two will be better. But quite doubtful that we'd have
the chance this time.
On 10 sep, 14:14, kossin wrote:
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kossin
Sep 10, 9:14 am
Ok, fair enough :)
I suggest we examine the t0 position carefully and t25 for any hints
of islands but we were probably going to do that anyway.
We can probably get traderoutes without Sailing simply from culture
connections over water. Regardless, it is hard to decide without
knowledge of the map so all we can do is establish the various options
open to us.
kossin
Sep 10, 9:17 am
I also think skipping Pottery might be in order. Regarding fish city
second build, we could put another wb for exploration if we want to
delay Sailing.
On Sep 10, 8:45 am, Duckweed wrote:
dingding
Sep 10, 9:21 am
Anyway discussing the tech path is quite premature now.
I hope we could check the save now. At least we agree to build
worker=>warrior=>worker right? Then we'll discuss the following.
Hate to wait for another 1 week.
On 10 sep, 15:17, kossin wrote:
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kossin
Sep 10, 10:03 am
I've been doing worker>worker>warriors.
Don't know which is better but I think we get unhealthy by growing to 2 early?
I'll try to run the numbers from memory to see what is better as I
don't have Civ with me for some hours (at University!)
dingding
Sep 10, 10:07 am
Sorry my bad, it's worker, worker, warrior.
On 10 sep, 16:03, kossin wrote:
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kossin
Sep 10, 11:06 am
Alright. We can "update" the test game to start from turn 27, which is the
place where The Wheel is complete (it diverges between Fishing and BW
there).
I can't do it until tonight so if anyone wants to run tests in the next 6
hours or so, feel free to upload your test game from t27.
kossin
Sep 10, 4:45 pm
I've uploaded 2 test games from t27, for each of the 2 suggested
approaches (2-workers, 3-workers).
2-workers has Fishing selected and the eastern Cows improved (cow-cow-
gold)
3-workers has BW selected and the northern Cows improved (cow-cow-rice-
gold)
Feel free to submit CS dates (basically, how early can you complete
Mathematics+CoL as I haven't nerfed the AI capitals so getting Oracle
done late isn't easy) and how you went about it. Brownie points to
include the GLH in the plan.
With an ambitious Oracle slingshot, early beakers is more important
than early hammers I believe -> getting the Academy up and running
ASAP will be huge.
hydraculas
Sep 10, 4:54 pm
One question, where will u settle the 2nd city? Beware that W3N3 is
covered in fallout.
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kossin
Sep 10, 5:24 pm
Sending 1 worker there by himself after the gold is improved does it in time
in my tests (I improved the riverside gold)
On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 4:54 PM, hydraculas wrote:
hydraculas
Sep 10, 5:33 pm
So u wanna keep a pop3 for a long time?
On Sep 10, 5:24 pm, kossin wrote:
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kossin
Sep 10, 5:41 pm
Well it's the choice...
A 3rd worker at size 2 or a 3rd worker at size 3 when gathering extra
commerce.
On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 5:33 PM, hydraculas wrote:
hydraculas
Sep 10, 5:44 pm
I got it. I will run a test for this.
On Sep 10, 5:41 pm, kossin wrote:
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hydraculas
Sep 11, 12:22 am
I have made simulation for both 2-worker and 3-worker opening. There's
a few things I need to mention about the simulation.
Suppose that there is no copper or horse in visual.
Suppose that city2 have not a health problem ( fallout tiles in dark
no more than 5)
Both of the two simulation didn't start the 2nd settler until
capital's population is 5. I think keep a 5-pop settler/worker booming
is very efficient. 5 pop can take 2cows, 1gold and 2 mines, with a
strong 16 hammer output and no food remain. Moreover, with a pop 5 and
3 health resources, we can have +2 health and chop 4 forests to speed
up hammers.
The difference is, 2-worker start settler1 at pop3 -> worker3 -> pop
growing to 5(library) -> settler2 -> worker4
3-worker start worker3 at pop3 -> pop growing
to 4 -> settler1 ->pop growing to 5(library) ->settler2 -> worker4
2-worker's tech route: TW -> BW -> Fishing -> Writing -> Alphabet
3-worker's tech route TW -> BW -> Writing -> Fishing -> Alphabet
in 2-worker, I put BW before Fishing because in a real game I don't
know if we have copper and we still wanna try, and this will not
influence the city2's workboat.
I put Alphabet at last in order to compare the two simulation's
financial output. In a real game, Alphabet would also be a good
choice, but it depends.
Here's the simulation until turn 66:
2-worker opening:
t49 city2 settle
t51 worker3 born
t60 library finished
t61 capital pop5
t65 settler2 born
t66 city1 pop5 producing worker4 27/60 barrack 38/50
city2 pop2 producing library 34/90 food 16/24
workers chopped one forest and will chop another in t67
153 gold left, Alphabet 270/468
3-worker opening:
t44 worker3 born
t48 capital pop4 start making settler
t55 city2 settle
t58 capital pop5
t59 library finished
t63 settler2 born
t66 worker4 born
city1 pop5 produing worker0/60 barrack 18/50 with a overflow 22
city2 pop1 producing library 16/90 Food 10/22
workers chopped the second forest in t65
133 gold left, Alphabet 251/468
As we can see, at turn66, city1 of 3-worker has made 18+22+60-27-38=35
more hammers than the 2-worker, which means about 2 turns ahead of
2nd, 3rd...settlers and 4th,5th,6th...workers(As we can see above).
City2 of 3-worker has made 18 hammers less than the 2-worker, and 1
population smaller.
About the financial situation, because of the early trade routes and
early city2, 2-worker has about 33 more coins in total than 3-worker.
For a general view, the main difference between these two simulation
is, 3-worker opening settle the 2nd city 6 turns later, but the 3rd
worker 6 turns earlier and all the cities and workers begin from the
3rd city 2 turns earlier. I think this 2 turns earlier are just as
critical as 2nd city 6urns later, even more.
There are additional good points for 3-workers opening. More roads. At
turn66, a better road network which makes the travel from city1 to
city2 one turn faster.
Another thing we should take in consider is, if there exists a copper
or horse, 3-worker opening will surely benefit more(own the resource
earlier), as 2-worker opening will only have 1worker working for a
long time( another goes to clean the fallout of city2).
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hydraculas
Sep 11, 12:39 am
t66 of the both simulation uploaded
u can have a comparison
On Sep 11, 12:22 am, hydraculas wrote:
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dingding
Sep 11, 4:21 am
Good job, hydra!
If I understand correctly:
You seems to reverse the output in the 2nd city: it has more output in
the 2-worker approach than 3-worker approach.
Besides one more tree is chopped in 3-worker opening compared to the
former one. The production output in capital is only 5 hammers of
difference.
Total output should be taken into account:
3-worker is 18+22+60-27-38-30(tree)-30(1 more pop in city 2)-6(more
food in city 2, 1 food = 1 hammer)-34/2(library in city 2) = 48
hammers behind 2-worker opening.
Also the research output speaks for itself: nearly 32-33 commerces of
difference in 2-worker approach are crucial for a CS opening.
Seems the first option has an overwhelming advantage compared to the
second one.
On 9月11日, 上午6时22分, hydraculas wrote:
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Nishant
Sep 11, 4:39 am
sorry for the delay
i vote for SIP (1 clam isn't worth crucial early 10 turns)
also 3 worker start looks good , provided workers come from woods.
(early settler wouldn't have trade routes instantly)
roster is fine by me.
not commenting on anything else right now. (depends on the map)
happy discussing.
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Nishant
Sep 11, 6:04 am
sorry, i meant 2 worker start not 3.
there is no edit option in groups
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kossin
Sep 11, 8:02 am
On Sat, Sep 11, 2010 at 6:04 AM, Nishant wrote:
> sorry, i meant 2 worker start not 3.
> there is no edit option in groups
You can delete posts if you really wish and re-type.
Nishant to Plastic
> show details 4:39 AM (3 hours ago)
sorry for the delay
i vote for SIP (1 clam isn't worth crucial early 10 turns)
also 3 worker start looks good , provided workers come from woods.
(early settler wouldn't have trade routes instantly)
roster is fine by me.
not commenting on anything else right now. (depends on the map)
happy discussing.
The early settler DOES get trade routes up immediately, you connect from the
river to the coast inside the culture which is a connection.
@dingding/hydraculas
Looks good in both cases. I'll run settler @size 3 and size 2 tests to
compare hammers and research by t66.
kossin
Sep 11, 8:43 am
settler at size3 followed by worker-library (grow to 5)
Fishing>Writing>BW>Alphabet (for comparison's sake)
settler 1 done t46
city 2 settled t48
worker 3 done t51
capital size 5 t58
library finishes t58
settler 2 done t63
t66 we have 3 cities done
Capital size 5 at 0F, 27 hammers invested in worker/settler - running
scientists! One of the goals of CS slingshot is to get it ASAP meaning
earliest Academy possible without stretching hammers too much. = 2
settlers+1 worker+1 library+27H = 75*2+60+45+27=282H
City 2 size 2, 1 fishnet and working on Library 50/90, 17/24F = 39F55H
City 3 size 1 working on Library (would be a workboat presumably) 8/22F,
4/90H = 8F2H
Alphabet: 374/468 ; 70 gold left (*I forgot to binary* at the start while
the library was coming up)
Total:
35F339H
I've attached the save - please not I screwed up my workers and they could
be doing some much more useful stuff. My city3 was settled 1 turn late (or
2, I forget) because I didn't do the right thing with 2 workers. Worker 3
has been putting down farms for apparently no good reasons :S
Comparing the 3 games, I think it means one of 2nd/3rd city must be good
financially and the other production-wise (+good food) -> if our goal is to
secure Civil Service via Oracle and have a shot at GLH.
hydraculas
Sep 11, 12:15 pm
It's just a problem that a 6 turns earlier city2 vs 2turns earlier of
the upcoming workers and settlers
For now, if there is not a copper or horse, 2-worker start would be
ok. If there is, 3-worker start should be take in consider.
On Sep 11, 4:21 am, dingding wrote:
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kossin
Sep 11, 6:17 pm
As I see it, hammers aren't the problem to land CS from Oracle but
research.
Moreover, research is going to be the limiting factor in reaching space fast
- when faced with the choice of production and research I might lean a bit
on the research side for this game. At least, early on.
Duckweed
Sep 11, 8:22 pm
The map for the game or at least the test map is horrible as my laptop
started to lag ~ T50, which usually happens ~T100. I won't run any
test before my new computer arrives in a week.
Could bugg123 put forward a plan 1st? so that we can get it revised to
optimal before 17th and get the game going immediately. Better not to
put too much time in the beginning and rush at the end. Some middle
game decisions are also very important, which made my BOTM33 result at
least 10 turns slower.
As I said earlier, the timing is very tense for this game. I spent 32
hours on BOTM29 for a space race victory and less than 10 hours on
BOTM 27 and 28 for a domination and conquest victory. I am pretty sure
that the issues to be discussed for this game would be doubt or
tripled as last one. It's best that if everyone in the team could
agree on everything, however it's close to impossible. Everyone,
especially good players have formed own playing style and it's very
hard to change one's mind on something that they have been using for
years and have thought it's right. I am very glad to see different
opinions and especially some good outbox ideas, but we can't afford to
tangle on anything for too long. My suggestion is that divergent
points with good supports (i.e. with careful consideration and tests
with math) would make it easy for others to have a better view to make
a judgment and give it a vote in short time. Good job on testing,
hydraculas!
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hydraculas
Sep 11, 9:36 pm
Yes u are right. Better not to put too much in the beginning and rush
at the end.
For now, we just have too limited information. In a real game,each
turn we will gain a lot more information and we will make feedback and
change the original strategy to the new information. Maybe we should
not make such a detailed layout, especially SGOTM12 is so special.
Maybe a few finding in the game will make some of our previous
preparation pointless. If we need a layout urgently, I prefer an
adaptable one.
On Sep 11, 8:22 pm, Duckweed wrote:
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kossin
Sep 12, 8:49 am
While I agree strongly (and yes, excellent testing/suggestions hydraculas!!!
It's really hard to choose between the two) I'd still like a general plan
(#of cities, tech path) to grab Civil Service from Oracle. The more time we
spend now while we're not sure, the less time we spend on the opening when
the game starts -> more time later on when it matters.
I think we've got a good idea of how to go about from the start but a few
things remain to be decided. This can be decided after turn 25 etc. when we
start playing the map for real :)
Duckweed
Sep 12, 7:13 pm
Well, I guess that in previous post I failed to present my opinion
clearly - "I hope our discussion can move forward more efficiently."
Let me give an overview of what we have discussed and try to make them
clear for vote.
1. Solved debating point -- capital site -- SIP
************************************************** *************
2. Debating point with some tests available
i) 2 worker opening -- here's my original proposal --
"
My trial went with
Tech: Agri->AH->TW->Fishing->(BW->Sailing->Writing???)
Capital build:
Worker->2nd Worker->warriors to size 3 ->Settler->finish 3rd warrior-
>3rd worker or settler
2nd city -- Fish/Gold (WB on gold mine->LH)
"
ii) 3 worker opening -- here's hydraculas's 1st proposal
"Here is a simulation for the early 42 turns, whether the PH south to
SIP have copper or not will decide the next move.
turn1 SIP build city, make worker, tech AGR->AH -> TW -> BW ( I put TW
foword the BW in order to obtain the health resources, if not, the
city will get a unhealthy penalty since pop2 )
t15 worker1 finished, then worker2. worker1 move to the right pasture
( After finished the 2nd pasture, it's closer to the gold mine)
t26 1st pasture finished, worker1 move to the north pasture, pop1 work
on pasture
t29worker2 finished, then scout/worrier ->worrier -> worrier , worker2
move to the pasture
t34 2nd pasture finished, 1 worker move to south->GM, then both of the
worker take 2 turns to build road(the road will get cow and let a
worker go to the gold mine without waste of movement)
t35 pop2
t39 pop3, change worrier to worker
t41 gold mine finished
t42 BW finished and 2 workers will decide where to go, 2 turns to the
3rd worker
"
Test results and analysis were done by hydraculas, kossin and
dingding.
Myself have thought the information was enough for a vote, however it
seems still not enough for hydraculas and kossin.
So far the vote or preference for this issue is:
2 worker opening -- Duckweed, dingding, nishant
3 worker opening -- hydraculas
?? -- BIC, Bugg123 and kossin (looking for more tests maybe)
Let's give it a vote and move on.
************************************************** ************
Issues to be determined and/or without clear preference.
1. What tech do we want from Oracle? My vote goes for CS. It seems
that dingding and kossin are also willing to take the risk. What about
others?
2. Do we want GLH and how's the plan? I don't have a very strong
preference for GLH, but I think I will vote yes to give it a go. We
can probably get more information for this issue after T25.
3. Tech path after "Agri->AH->TW->Fishing", it somehow depends on
whether we want GLH. However, as there are still some days before the
save is available, can we try to make it clear? If no GLH, then
Writing->BW? otherwise Sailing->Writing?
4. Capital and 2nd city build and worker micro -- the plan. Bugg123
seems pretty busy recently, I do hope he could draw some time to post
a plan for revision.
I think after the team thread is opened, the active player better
takes the responsibility of organizing issues and calling for vote on
those debating points before proposing the detailed plan.
Note to all -- please check your .ini file to set the autosave
interval to 1 before playing the game. For unknown reason, my
configuration file was automatically reset some days ago. @hydraculas
and nishant, please take special note on this issue and take a look at
the rule and disciplines for playing SGOTM.
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hydraculas
Sep 12, 8:26 pm
I still can not make a decision on a 2or3 worker start. We need more
information about:
a) If there exists a copper or horse?
b) If the fallout of dark tiles around city2 are less than 5? If not,
when we settle down city2 it will achieve a health penalty.
c) If there exists a very good place for city3 and city4?
About the issues u mentioned:
1. Agree. Goes for CS.
2. I'm against to make a try for GLH. The effect of GLH may be limited
in this map, considering the war status. Our first task is to ensure
oracling CS. If we have extra hammers, it's better to take them into
settlers and workers.
3. I prefer Agri->AH->TW->BW -> Fishing, it will be fast enough for
city2 to start wb. Anyway, we need to know the copper position asap.
Then writing->alphabet, (set tech contribution 0->1when the library
finished) we can get a general view of the techs of AIs, and we may
have a chance exchange for pottery. Considering the tech speed of
Emperor, it's better to research alphabet by our self.
On Sep 12, 7:13 pm, Duckweed wrote:
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kossin
Sep 13, 12:12 am
Ok here is my position:
SIP
2-worker opening.
Tech:
After Fishing it depends on what the map has to offer. City 2 might
require another wb for all we know!
Grabbing Sailing this early will delay the Academy which delays CS.
Regarding GLH: our decision shall be based on seeing more of the map.
For all we know we could have only 2-3 coastal cities. I'd like to get
it, but only if the reward is efficient to the cost.
Worker-worker-warriors to size 3-settler-worker-?library?
Worker micro: east cow, north cow.
2nd worker goes straight to riverside gold to road then pasture 2nd
cow.
Unless horse pops after AH...
We might need to add in Archery at one point...
@hydraculas
I don't think Alphabet is an option this early if we want CS from
Oracle... The cost is too high and trade opportunities unlikely but
it's too early to tell in any case.
@all
Yes do check your ini files as well as the various Rule threads. To
summarize:
No reloads from previous point, ever!
No reading of other team threads. The best way to resist temptation is
to use the Subscribed threads tool under quick links! Similarily, do
not download other team saves.
When looking at the save, do not perform any irreversible action! You
can't trade, whip or move units.
If the game crashes, stop and pm AlanH with details of what happened.
Wait for instructions.
Suggested:
save often manually
do stop if an opportunity becomes available or something goes wrong.
Pause the game before uploading/examining it.
When testing the game, make sure you're using the test game! Markers
will be added here and there to help.
Let us know when you can't make a deadline or RL becomes busy.
Have fun :) threads should open soonish!
On Sep 12, 7:13 pm, Duckweed wrote:
Bugg123
Sep 13, 7:14 am
Hi guys!
Sorry for dropping of for a few days. Just too much happening on the
RL front right now. Can't keep up with all the "fun stuff".
As is, I would like to be skipped for the initial turnsets. I don't
really have the energy to go all in on testing and making sure I don't
mess up the start. I'll try to kick my ass back in gear sooner rather
than later and try to make a comeback.
Again, I'm really sorry.. it's just the way it has to be :(
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kossin
Sep 13, 8:27 am
Alright, take your time Bugg. We'll have a nice set waiting for you
down the line ;)
Thanks for the heads up and good luck!
kossin
Sep 13, 8:51 am
Does anyone want to take the first set? Or shall we go by the roster?
Gah I started a post but CivFanatics ate it.
Just to make the voting clear:
You can and should change your mind. A saying in French says that "Only fools don't change their minds!"
:)
Majority+1 is all that is needed to decide on a course of action. Since we are 7, majority is 4 and +1 is 5. Unanimous is hard to get and not always worth the extra time.
It might happen that we reach a minor majority (4v3). In that case, we will leave twelve (12) hours for further arguments to try and sway a few votes to either side.
In the case of a tie due to blank votes (and after 24 hours have passed), the decision will fall in the hands of the person playing the set.
In the above case, should the player not want to make a choice, the decision falls to the Team captain (that's me).
Sounds fair? We have about 48~60 hours to agree on the rules we'll abide with for the next 3 months :D
Going by the above, we had:
-5/7 players in favor of 2-worker opening PASSED
-4/6 players in favor of Oracle>Civil Service [minus 1 blank vote as I assume Bugg will not participate for some more time - same for below] Needs discussion
-3/6 players in favor of GLH, 1 against, 1 uncertain, 1 blank Needs discussion
-Tech path (Ag>AH>TW>Fishing) is forced up to and including Fishing due to 2-worker opening PASSED
-worker micro: no complete plan has been put forward yet NEEDS TO BE PUT TOGETHER IN 1 POST, COHERENTLY
-other things: warriors, stop points Needs discussion
For now, the items in Orange aren't exactly pressing as we can decide to change our mind once we see the save (for example AIs aren't crippled by fallout at all, with monster capitals). However the item in RED would be required within the next 24! hours so that we can leave some time for review by everyone.
More from me tomorrow. G'night!
BornInCantaloup Sep 15, 2010, 02:44 AM @ Kossin :
Those rules would fit me.
@ Duckweed :
Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain those points in detail.
3 cities to Oracle CS makes sense and is the kind of relation I had not grasped yet.
- Regarding the 2workers vs 3workers start, I got confused with the maths... Not sure how it happenned but it happens regularly...
2 workers is ok with me.
- The Oracle :
Overall, CS feels very late to get with the Oracle. I can see how good CS will be (didn't notice the irrigated rice, though), however if we Oracle something smaller but earlier (CoL, Calendar, Currency), it may have the same impact.
- If there aren't any religions on our continent and we start at war with the AI, CoL has its own merits beyond enabling Caste System.
- If there is Marble around and 1-2 resources, then Calendar may be sound. We will want golden ages enhanced by the MoM, right ? (Oracling Calendar and building the MoM right away may be premature, though).
- Researching CoL, then Oracling Philosophy, then revolting to Caste/Pacifism and self researching CS could have some merits too. It would probably take longer to reach CS this way than researching CoL + Maths and Oracling, though. But it would mean another religion (happy) and a civic secured. The civic switch would also be "obvious" since we could revolt back to Slavery when CS is Oracled (hence benefitting from Caste System). Finally, there would be a reward of 1-2 GP to make up for the later CS.
In general : the later we build the Oracle, the more we will hamper our expansion. So we need to consider that as the opportunity cost of Oracling CS (maybe you did, but I didn't yet).
That said, I will trust you all and agree to aim for Oracle -> CS. I guess I'll see the advantages when I'll have time to run some tests. And if I don't, I will raise this point in time.
- Wipping and happy cap :
The capital will have 4-5 specials but we don't know whether the happy cap will be 6 or more. We could have ivory somewhere close. We will also probably get Confucianism to raise the happy cap.
2pop whips in the capital may be possible if we have a Granary.
- Sidenote :
There's a possibility that Stalin isn't swamped in fallout and starts wonderspamming on this map. We will see from SH/TGW dates.
I'm not sure what kind of wonders he prioritizes, though.
dingding Sep 15, 2010, 05:28 AM Plan for the first 40turns:
First turn check:
Demographics: Pop (before and after settlement), Land Area, Life Expectancy (see the effect of the fallout pollution to AI.
Diplo borad: City numbers, contacts, diplo minus.
Every turn:
Try to put the same amount of EP on the other 6 AI. Then we can guess their distance from the EP +% to them.
Tech: Agri=>AH=>TW=>Fishing/BW/Writing (to be discussed, depends on environment)
t0: SIP, start worker on 2F1H1C
t3: Border expanded, see environment
t15: Worker 1 out, goes to eastern Cow to Improve; Moscow starts 2nd worker.
t26: Cow improved, put 1 pop on
t27: Worker 1 goes to northern Cow to improve
t29: Worker 2 out, goes 1N1W to road; Moscow starts warriors
t33: Worker 2 finished road, goes to northern Cow to improve
t35: 2nd Pasture finished; workers road
t36: 2nd pop on Cow, workers go to riverside Gold
t39: 3 pops on 2F1H1C
T40: 3rd warrior out, starts settler.
Explanations:
In terms of 2nd worker's first roading, we have 2 options: 1N1W and 1N1E (then Worker roads the eastern Cow directly.)
The second one can save one turn by moving the worker to the northern cow after the fallout is removed. So the Gold can be used 1 turn earlier accordingly (after t40). But the next settler has to lose one turn to cross the NW forest so the 2nd city is delayed by 1 turn.
1 turn earlier of the 2nd city vs. 1 turn earlier of Gold mine. I vote for the first one.
About the next tech after TW, it seems Fishing is OK but we have an option to insert another tech (BW or Writing) here if needed.
kossin Sep 15, 2010, 06:30 AM @BIC
There are many things that depend and we will adjust as we see the map. If it becomes clear that Oracle>CS is too risky then we'll decide if we still want to gamble before jumping ahead :)
About expansion: being Imperialistic, each pop is worth 45H on a worker settler. It will be very easy to expand once we decide to do so. With Bureaucracy it is even better at 60H! We will have to choose a balance between tech and land grab at some point, but early on in this setting I believe tech>land (as are most games until you hit Writing/Pottery otherwise you crash the economy and can't recover).
@dingding
A simple solution to your dilemma to eliminate a wasted worker turn: have the worker put a road first on the second cow so the new worker joins him without penalty.
t28: first worker roads on cows
t29: Worker 2 out, goes 1N1W to road; Moscow starts warriors
t30: first worker clears fallout, 2nd worker roads
t32: second worker joins first to clean fallout
The workers finish the cow improvement the same turn the city grows to size 2.
You get the best out of both worlds, earlier gold and earlier second city.
Three further things:
If horses appear after researching Animal Husbandry, we'll probably have to alter the plan.
We might want to give a view of the 2nd border pop to the team at t25 before moving on
We will likely need to stop at t32 to decide on BW or Writing
In the first case, we'll need to run a few tests to figure out what's best for our intentions. There is still a strong case to be made about sticking to the original plan but depending on its location (for example, the plains tile between both cows), it can be easy to improve.
In the second case, it is not crucial but it will reveal some information about the land in our surroundings.
In the third case, warriors will have been out for a few turns and more information will be available. Moreover Writing vs BW becomes more or less a decision between two distinct paths of research vs hammer at that point.
Duckweed Sep 15, 2010, 07:11 AM @BIC
I guess the most dangerous opponent that can go for Oracle is Gandhi but not Stalin since he considers PH as a low priority tech. I hope Gandhi be our neighbor.:devil:
@dingding
Could you also describe all the actions (including road, remove fallout, pasture, and etc.) of worker explicitly in your plan? Such as 1st worker road the north cow 1st, then remove fallout, pasture. 2nd worker join in after road the forest. Also do you road the riverside desert?
You can save in T1(for the statistics), T25(for more ocean tiles) and upload them to the thread (NOT the S&P page)
@kossin
1. If horses appear after researching Animal Husbandry, we'll probably have to alter the plan.
2. We might want to give a view of the 2nd border pop to the team at t25 before moving on
3. We will likely need to stop at t32 to decide on BW or Writing
1. I think 2 Cows>2 Gold mine>Rice>Horse/copper (when not producing worker/settler), so the appearance of horse/copper won't affect the micro early on.
2. right
3. Yes, but my opinion is sailing/writing > masonry/BW
kossin Sep 15, 2010, 07:26 AM Pre-Game Discussion continued...
Opening Part IV
Duckweed
Sep 13, 9:14 am
On Sep 13, 12:12 am, kossin wrote:
> Ok here is my position:
> SIP
> 2-worker opening.
> Tech:
> After Fishing it depends on what the map has to offer. City 2 might
> require another wb for all we know!
2 warriors can scout along the coast, WB for scout is not urgent, but
it is needed to claim the clam sometime.
> Grabbing Sailing this early will delay the Academy which delays CS.
As long as we can have Writing ready after the 3rd worker and/or 2nd
settler, capital can start lib and then hire 2 scientists immediately.
The GS probably won't help the Oracle date, but still very important
for research.
> Regarding GLH: our decision shall be based on seeing more of the map.
> For all we know we could have only 2-3 coastal cities. I'd like to get
> it, but only if the reward is efficient to the cost.
Without seeing the rest of the map, I can tell that it's no doubt we
can settle 10 or more coastal cities in this continent if we want. For
me, the only concern of going for GLH is that it slow down the
Oracling CS and increase the risk.
> Worker-worker-warriors to size 3-settler-worker-?library?
> Worker micro: east cow, north cow.
> 2nd worker goes straight to riverside gold to road then pasture 2nd
> cow.
> Unless horse pops after AH...
I roaded the NW Forest instead of gold mine (settler can travel 1 turn
faster and worker can go back faster with another road on riverside
desert), 2 workers then finish the pasture of the northern cow
together. After that, I worker go to clean the fallout on the tile for
city 2. There's a choice, do we want o road the riverside desert? it
costs 3 turns, but save the time of units traveling later on).
> We might need to add in Archery at one point...
I doubt that there is neither horse nor copper in culture border.
> @hydraculas
> I don't think Alphabet is an option this early if we want CS from
> Oracle... The cost is too high and trade opportunities unlikely but
> it's too early to tell in any case.
Add more to that, building science is no use when currency is
available. If Ekon add the nuke modification in the game, we can never
trade with those furious AIs. The only ways to get techs from AIs are
from peace treaty and spy mission. I do think we will and can twist
some techs from our neighbor.
Who is willing to take the opening then.
@ Bugg123
Take it easy for now. :-) You'll get a nice test intensive set later.
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kossin
Sep 13, 10:29 am
On Sep 13, 9:14 am, Duckweed wrote:
> On Sep 13, 12:12 am, kossin wrote:
> > Ok here is my position:
> > SIP
> > 2-worker opening.
> > Tech:
> > After Fishing it depends on what the map has to offer. City 2 might
> > require another wb for all we know!
> 2 warriors can scout along the coast, WB for scout is not urgent, but
> it is needed to claim the clam sometime.
Clams is in the test game, we have no clue about the real game.
> > Grabbing Sailing this early will delay the Academy which delays CS.
> As long as we can have Writing ready after the 3rd worker and/or 2nd
> settler, capital can start lib and then hire 2 scientists immediately.
> The GS probably won't help the Oracle date, but still very important
> for research.
An Academy will shave off a few turns of the total research I think.
Especially with 2 golds available the bonus will be significant.
> > Regarding GLH: our decision shall be based on seeing more of the map.
> > For all we know we could have only 2-3 coastal cities. I'd like to get
> > it, but only if the reward is efficient to the cost.
> Without seeing the rest of the map, I can tell that it's no doubt we
> can settle 10 or more coastal cities in this continent if we want. For
> me, the only concern of going for GLH is that it slow down the
> Oracling CS and increase the risk.
Right but we might prefer to go inland if the land is favorable
compared to the coast.
> > Worker-worker-warriors to size 3-settler-worker-?library?
> > Worker micro: east cow, north cow.
> > 2nd worker goes straight to riverside gold to road then pasture 2nd
> > cow.
> > Unless horse pops after AH...
> I roaded the NW Forest instead of gold mine (settler can travel 1 turn
> faster and worker can go back faster with another road on riverside
> desert), 2 workers then finish the pasture of the northern cow
> together. After that, I worker go to clean the fallout on the tile for
> city 2. There's a choice, do we want o road the riverside desert? it
> costs 3 turns, but save the time of units traveling later on).
Road on the forest sounds good, nice catch. I wouldn't road the desert
just now as I think workers will be too busy elsewhere.
I would but I'll be pretty busy from 16-18 Sept with little time to
test/play as I won't be home.
kossin
Sep 13, 10:32 am
By Clams I meant the one in the Fish city BFC, not the visible one.
dingding
Sep 13, 11:31 am
I don't mind taking the first turnset which is relatively simple.
If no objection I'll make within the day a plan in details with:
1) SIP
2) till the cap hit pop 3 (2 workers => warriors)
2) Agri => AH => TW => Fishing
Will try a longer test till the 1st settler.
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kossin
Sep 13, 12:16 pm
Sounds good dingding. If no one posts within a few hours go ahead.
I'll update the roster to reflect the first round in a few hours as well.
kossin
Sep 13, 2:41 pm
The updated roster as of the swap.
dingding
hydraculas
nishant1911
Bugg123
BornInCantaloup
Duckweed
kossin
Please keep in mind that this may change due to availability of
players. IF YOU THINK YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO TEST/PLAY COME YOUR TURN
SAY IT AHEAD SO WE CAN TRY SWAPPING YOU EARLIER/LATER!
:)
@settler starting time
From what I remember of my tests, as the capital grows to size 3 the
warrior is 1 turn from completion. Starting the settler then does not
make him come out any earlier (overflow hammers from warrior) but I
think it might affect the next worker. However starting the settler
before the warrior is done can lead to losing hammers in the warrior
after 10 turns.
I usually finished the warrior for the extra scouting - what do you
think?
Duckweed
Sep 13, 6:09 pm
On Sep 13, 10:29 am, kossin wrote:
I referred to the visible clam as we might need the health bonus.
With GLH, I am in favor of more cities than less and better cities in
our continent.
> > > Worker-worker-warriors to size 3-settler-worker-?library?
> > > Worker micro: east cow, north cow.
> > > 2nd worker goes straight to riverside gold to road then pasture 2nd
> > > cow.
> > > Unless horse pops after AH...
> > I roaded the NW Forest instead of gold mine (settler can travel 1 turn
> > faster and worker can go back faster with another road on riverside
> > desert), 2 workers then finish the pasture of the northern cow
> > together. After that, I worker go to clean the fallout on the tile for
> > city 2. There's a choice, do we want o road the riverside desert? it
> > costs 3 turns, but save the time of units traveling later on).
> Road on the forest sounds good, nice catch. I wouldn't road the desert
> just now as I think workers will be too busy elsewhere.
The road will save 1 turn when the worker goes back to capital, so the
cost is 2 turns at that moment but it will facilitate the later
improvement in fish city. By the time when we start to settle further
west, we might want to road that tile, therefore it's a save of worker
force eventually.
On Sep 13, 2:41 pm, kossin wrote:
> @settler starting time
> From what I remember of my tests, as the capital grows to size 3 the
> warrior is 1 turn from completion. Starting the settler then does not
> make him come out any earlier (overflow hammers from warrior) but I
> think it might affect the next worker. However starting the settler
> before the warrior is done can lead to losing hammers in the warrior
> after 10 turns.
> I usually finished the warrior for the extra scouting - what do you
> think?
Which tile did you let he 3rd citizen work? I remember I let it on the
silk tile to favor growth and finish 3rd warrior after settler (or it
might be possible to delay it after 3rd worker without losing the
decay hammers). IMO the 3rd warrior will be used for happiness in
capital instead of scouting and we will produce a chariot or axe
before settling further west.
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kossin
Sep 13, 7:01 pm
> I referred to the visible clam as we might need the health bonus.
Yea, I figured that after I hit 'send' =D
> With GLH, I am in favor of more cities than less and better cities in
> our continent.
Yea, makes sense... we save how powerful that is!
> The road will save 1 turn when the worker goes back to capital, so the
> cost is 2 turns at that moment but it will facilitate the later
> improvement in fish city. By the time when we start to settle further
> west, we might want to road that tile, therefore it's a save of worker
> force eventually.
Sure, as long as it doesn't delay an important improvement when we need it.
> Which tile did you let he 3rd citizen work? I remember I let it on the
> silk tile to favor growth and finish 3rd warrior after settler (or it
> might be possible to delay it after 3rd worker without losing the
> decay hammers). IMO the 3rd warrior will be used for happiness in
> capital instead of scouting and we will produce a chariot or axe
> before settling further west.
I've run a quick test:
The forest road works great. First worker starts road on Cows and second on
Forest then they clear and pasture just as city grows to size 2.
We can push back the warrior after the 3rd worker, it won't lose any hammers
(barely, 1 turn more and it would!).
However, *this does not affect the settler/worker dates*, they still get out
at the same moment.
The road on the desert seems to affect the rice and second gold improvements
by 1 turn each however.
BIC
Sep 14, 4:23 pm
Hi guys,
I'm back from a long week end and reporting. I've read the maths but
didn't look at the saves yet. It seems you did a great job at clearing
the path.
I'll follow Duckweed's points to give my opinion.
0) 2 workers vs 3 workers start.
I have a slight preference for.... hmmm.... I have mostly questions on
this point since I can't see the "better" option yet, I can see the
trade offs.
2 workers comes ahead in commerce. If we want to Oracle CS, this will
have my preference.
On the other hand, 3 workers comes ahead in production (REX, macro/map
control, military). It is also very flexible to have that early size 5
capital. Depending on the quality of the 3rd site, it may be the
better choice. Also, what would be the importance of an early war/
choke ? If it is important, 3 workers may be better.
3 workers allows for but maybe it is too "fair" for a
SG...
1) What tech do we want from Oracle?
Say we want to Oracle CS... What do you build in the capital while
teching Maths/CoL ? Bear with me, I've never Oracled CS.
This is kinda related to point 2. The build could be the GLH, or could
be the Pyramids... What if it is not ? Isn't there a risk we will just
build units, especially if we skip Pottery ?
After SGOTM11, I remember that DingDing was suspicious about OSS way
to bulb Mathematics and then to Oracle CS. Maybe they bulbed Maths
precisely because they lacked some cool stuff to build ?
Overall, I don't feel super enthusiastic to plan to Oracle CS on turn
0. I feel we lack some map knowledge, whick makes the move very risky.
2) Do we want GLH and how's the plan?
I'd want it, yes. However, same as for the Oracle, I'd rather have
some info on the map before carving this choice in stone.
If we want it, I'm not sure we would need to rush. If we go for
Oracle-->CS, then I guess we could build either the Pyramids/GLH while
researching the Classical techs.
3) Tech path :
Last SG, we delayed Pottery until... late. Given our food poor/
production heavy capital, I may be in favour of an early Granary.
Especially if there's a lot of land to settle, but we can't know that
yet.
"Agri->AH->TW" is ok with me. Fishing next depends on point 0
(2workers vs 3workers start).
I'm not giving you any clear answers right now... I'll try to get a
better understanding of point 0 by tomorrow. This is where all choices
spring from, right ?
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Duckweed
Sep 14, 5:09 pm
The team thread is opened, I'll try to explain your questions there
after kossin setup the header. You may take a carefully look at the
result analysis from dingding's post. 2 worker start beats 3 worker
start even at hammer production.
On Sep 14, 4:23 pm, BIC wrote:
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kossin
Sep 14, 6:13 pm
I've reserved 3 posts so go ahead. Everyone should switch exclusively
to CF forum from now on.
@BIC
Most if your points are actually answered in the previous page. I'd
say more but it's kinda hard from a mobile to copy and paste. No doubt
Duckweed can tell it.
As far as my own tests showed, 2-worker seemed to come out ahead in
every department but improvements, of course.
On Sep 14, 5:09 pm, Duckweed wrote:
kossin
Sep 14, 6:23 pm
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=379350
here's the game thread in case you can't find it.
I'd put my money on Mao or Churchill to be our neighbor.
AlanH has been hinting that the game was fairly difficult (more than Emperor) so I don't think they'd be nice enough to put Gandhi next to us :)
About horses: that was my gut feeling especially considering the research we need.
About tech: the reason why I like Writing next is to allow the capital to grow on a Library. However to include GLH in plan you are right, there isn't much choice but to start early unless there's a bunch of trees available that we can't see.
kossin Sep 15, 2010, 09:07 AM I've updated posts #2 and #3 with some information. Please tell me if something is out of place/missing so I can fix it. You only need to read it once and most of the relevant information is in evidence so it shouldn't be too long.
A lot of it is repeated from SGOTM 11 but I made some minor modifications.
hydraculas Sep 15, 2010, 09:38 AM @BIC
There are many things that depend and we will adjust as we see the map. If it becomes clear that Oracle>CS is too risky then we'll decide if we still want to gamble before jumping ahead :)
About expansion: being Imperialistic, each pop is worth 45H on a worker. It will be very easy to expand once we decide to do so. With Bureaucracy it is even better at 60H! We will have to choose a balance between tech and land grab at some point, but early on in this setting I believe tech>land (as are most games until you hit Writing/Pottery otherwise you crash the economy and can't recover).
@dingding
A simple solution to your dilemma to eliminate a wasted worker turn: have the worker put a road first on the second cow so the new worker joins him without penalty.
t28: first worker roads on cows
t29: Worker 2 out, goes 1N1W to road; Moscow starts warriors
t30: first worker clears fallout, 2nd worker roads
t32: second worker joins first to clean fallout
The workers finish the cow improvement the same turn the city grows to size 2.
You get the best out of both worlds, earlier gold and earlier second city.
Three further things:
If horses appear after researching Animal Husbandry, we'll probably have to alter the plan.
We might want to give a view of the 2nd border pop to the team at t25 before moving on
We will likely need to stop at t32 to decide on BW or Writing
In the first case, we'll need to run a few tests to figure out what's best for our intentions. There is still a strong case to be made about sticking to the original plan but depending on its location (for example, the plains tile between both cows), it can be easy to improve.
In the second case, it is not crucial but it will reveal some information about the land in our surroundings.
In the third case, warriors will have been out for a few turns and more information will be available. Moreover Writing vs BW becomes more or less a decision between two distinct paths of research vs hammer at that point.
The discussion above sounds good to me.
To add some point, if we decide go on BW after Fishing, why don't we put BW before Fishing? If we do that we can still get Fishing before turn48 and it won't affect the wb when we settle city2.
If we go Writing before BW, shall we discuss about the risk of loss from a potential copper?
If everything goes like we assumed, our former plan will be good enough.
What if there's something unexpected? For example, what if the fallout of dark tiles around city2 are more than 5? If so, when we settle down city2 it will achieve a health penalty.
And if we found a horse near the Capital, shall we link the horse ASAP in order to get a chariot? Due to the war status with AIs from the beginning, shall we take the chance to capture their workers?
There are too many possibilities and we should make preparations to a variety of situation.
nishant1911 Sep 15, 2010, 11:06 AM To add some point, if we decide go on BW after Fishing, why don't we put BW before Fishing?
i am not sure but i think that would be to (hopefully) get research discounts if some other AI discover BW before us.
nishant1911 Sep 15, 2010, 11:17 AM um, does anybody has a good knowledge about how AI tech choices and production is affected by an early DOW?
i suppose they usually prioritize wonders less as in OCC AW thread everyone witnessed oracle going much sooner.
i was able to delay oracle by 20+turns because i met them earlier.
is it really the case or it's just RNG stuff?
edit: i say we go for oracle but leave GLH for now (additional map knowledge)
Duckweed Sep 15, 2010, 01:29 PM i am not sure but i think that would be to (hopefully) get research discounts if some other AI discover BW before us.
That's a reason.
The major reasons are --
1. the copper tile or even a horse tile does not have a chance to be worked early on.
3rd citizen on either silk/plain forest hill/gold (workers are still busy on improving 1st gold mine for fish city)
4th citizen on rice while building Lib
at size 5 hire 2 scientists
2. Writing has higher priority to BW since we want 1st GS as soon as possible
um, does anybody has a good knowledge about how AI tech choices and production is affected by an early DOW?
i suppose they usually prioritize wonders less as in OCC AW thread everyone witnessed oracle going much sooner.
i was able to delay oracle by 20+turns because i met them earlier.
is it really the case or it's just RNG stuff?
edit: i say we go for oracle but leave GLH for now (additional map knowledge)
I don't have the impression there's much difference of AI's tech choice with an early DOW. Their tech choice is affected by their build-in preference and the strategic resources layout -- for instance, they tend to go for IW immediately if no copper can be claimed nearby and go for Construction/HBR/Feudalism if no Iorn claimed. The risk of Oracle depends on 1. whether the AI like PH 2. whether the AI like wonders
kossin Sep 15, 2010, 01:44 PM @hydraculas
It is true that BW>Fishing is fast enough to start the workboat on t47 in the second city. I will get back to this issue in a moment.
:yuck:-related
Your concern about unhealthy second city is good but we will look at it: for the city to be unhealthy at size 1, it will require 10 fallout. However, the city at size 1 will be working the gold tile UNTIL the Fish is improved - meaning we have 9 turns to improve its health status.
In 9 turns, we will have: Rice +1:health: (t55) Fish +1:health: (t56). Therefore to actually have a problem growing to size 2 with unhealth, the city would require !13! fallout tiles. With several water tiles present in its BFC, I highly doubt that possibility.
Back to BW>Fishing.
We have to find a compromise here, there are many techs we need after TW:
-Fishing
-BW
-Writing
-Sailing
-Masonry
Of all these, Masonry is arguably the lowest priority as we do not need it to start GLH until after the Lighthouse is built.
Similarily Sailing is low priority should the team decide to post-pone the GLH.
This leaves Writing/BW/Fishing. We've seen that BW>Fishing is fast enough to start the wb on t47. The question becomes: do we really want to work a copper this early and can we even afford to improve it? I will consider the BEST possible scenario (riverside grassland copper mine).
Let's first look at it from the worker standpoint.
On t41 BW finishes, meaning we see copper location on t42. The workers are just done improving the first gold by t41.
By t47 we need to remove the fallout from city #2, that's 2 turns moving (42-43) and 6 worker turns (44-44,45-45,46,47). So far we've had 6 turns with the knowledge of BW but no opportunity to do anything about it - provided there is even copper in our BFC. In the best possible scenario, the copper will be riverside on the grassland (2F4H1C). It is definitely an improvement over the Silk tile but at this point what's the most important? More hammers? More commerce? More food?
From the city standpoint:
By t53 we can have the riverside grassland copper improved, meaning we work that from t53 and on. t54 the capital grows to size 4 and is due size 5 in 5 turns while working the silk again. (5 turns is not enough time to improve the rice 6 fallout+5 farm+6 moving > 15 - it is done on t60 and capital grows to 5 on t59) ... etc.
If there is indeed a copper, then you want to get to size 6 the fastest to work 2 cows, 1 gold, 1 copper and 2 scientists for as early as possible Academy. Which brings us to
early Rice>Copper. This also supports the idea of having another city down there to use the rice and grow fast, provided some seafood is also present.
My conclusion therefore is we don't need BW before at least pop 5 or pop 6. In terms of turns, that's
t55 - size 4
t59 - size 5
t64/t66 - size 6 (t66 if we choose the second gold instead of the copper to improve -> more commerce less hammers).
In the best case scenario we need Bronze Working at the EARLIEST by turn 54 (the time required to move, remove fallout and then mine it before we hit size 5 on t59), however this means no Sailing or Writing. I can live with no Sailing if we find a better use than a LH in the second city (like say another workboat). Skipping Writing however is a big no-no for this long.
Let's examine it with Duckweed's GLH research proposition
Doing Ag>AH>TW>Fishing>Sailing>Writing>BW gives us BW on t60 if we do not run binary research. About in time for the pop 6 improvement.
With Binary research, we get it on t62, improve t63-t67.
The LOSS is 3 hammers per turn (we have a 2F1H1C tile available) for 8 turns (t67-t59) meaning 24 hammers compared to getting it improved for t59. The GAIN OTOH is 7 turns worth of binary research which is 6.25 beakers per turn with 2 golds, a palace, the city tile and the trade route.
That's 50 beakers vs 24 hammers. Even at a 2:1 ratio, the beakers come out ahead so this is a valid option, provided that city #2 has nothing better to do than a LH (Lighthouse).
EDIT: one more thing, we have Hunting so a connected copper means no more cheap warriors for Military Police.
kossin Sep 15, 2010, 01:54 PM @nishant1911
To add to what Duckweed said about techs, as far as I know AIs only make tech decisions of 2-deep (meaning they don't look further than 1 pre-requisite).
Furthermore, this is Aggressive AI so the regular Wonder dates are slower. And to add to that, only Gandhi starts with Mysticism (unless Erkon had fun there as well). I imagine we will have quite some time to build The Oracle and also the GLH.
hydraculas Sep 15, 2010, 08:45 PM The LOSS is 3 hammers per turn (we have a 2F1H1C tile available) for 8 turns (t67-t59) meaning 24 hammers compared to getting it improved for t59. The GAIN OTOH is 7 turns worth of binary research which is 6.25 beakers per turn with 2 golds, a palace, the city tile and the trade route.
That's 50 beakers vs 24 hammers. Even at a 2:1 ratio, the beakers come out ahead so this is a valid option, provided that city #2 has nothing better to do than a LH (Lighthouse).
U have a good point. I am quite surprised that u all put beakers so much forward to the hammers at beginning which is hard to imagine in my usual games. Maybe because it's Emperor and we won't face such a high pressure of expanding.
On t41 BW finishes, meaning we see copper location on t42. The workers are just done improving the first gold by t41.
By t47 we need to remove the fallout from city #2, that's 2 turns moving (42-43) and 6 worker turns (44-44,45-45,46,47). So far we've had 6 turns with the knowledge of BW but no opportunity to do anything about it - provided there is even copper in our BFC. In the best possible scenario, the copper will be riverside on the grassland
And that's one of the reason that if I'm sure we have copper I will go for a 3-worker start. However it seems that u are not interested in a fast expanding after city2 and I can surely understand your point. U just wanna keep a maximum of commerce in order to ensure oracling CS and although it's a quite extreme strategy, I accept it. :)
About the later library, I plan to run a 0 percents of science contribution and switch to 100% when it is finished so as to avoid the commerce loss. Since that u wanna go for a GS ASAP, it's a totally different style and I am not oppose to it either.
Just do it and I hope we will be able to oracling CS as schedule, after the cost of a fast expanding.
dingding Sep 16, 2010, 02:28 AM @ hydraculas:
I think one of the advantages of our team is that we are very objective-oriented. When we decide to do something, we stick to our strategy and take the minimum risk.
e.g. The early wonder-spamming (Oracle+GLH), war plan, etc. in our last game.
There is some incertitude about the map so that REX (rapid early expansion) seems to be premature at the moment. It doesn’t necessarily mean that we’ll abandon it however, we have possibility to revise the strategy as our scouting gives more information about the map.
To add to your discussion on beakers vs. hammers: this game is still a competition of beakers instead of hammers. 24 hammers is incomparable with 50 beakers expecially at the early stage and on Emp (less tech trades than on Deity)
@ all:
I’d like to stop once TW is finished, upload the game in the thread for a further discussion with the information available by then.
About micro-management, I’ll take kossin’s advise to road first on the northern Cow.
BornInCantaloup Sep 16, 2010, 03:13 AM A stop when we have The Wheel would fit me.
Didn't we also plan a stop at Turn 1 (without officially uploading the save) to do the flying camera trick ?
@ The plan :
No complaints about it :)
kossin Sep 16, 2010, 05:49 AM @BIC
Flying Camera can be done on t0.
t1 is for demographics
t25 for border pop
and t27 (whenever TW is done) is the end of the discussed and agreed part. Note that I would still not upload to the site at this point as it is too easy to show that we SIP.
@hydraculas
The results are for including Sailing ahead of BW so without Sailing early you don't lose the extra hammers.
I've tried playing the CS from Oracle on the map a few times. While more hammers would have been most welcome (never have enough), getting CoL and Marhematics done is the longer path. If we want to REX (rapid early expansion) then we must forget about Oracle >CS because upkeep is too high.
It's too early to try and run any numbers on the possible gain/loss of each approach however I suspect that this game being quasi-AW environnment will not favor a REX for several reasons : defense and foreign trade routes not available. True we will require about 3/4 workers per city to keep them going so we are delaying city 3-4-5... by 1-2 turns until the point where we get CS earlier. Therefore the loss in hammers and food is much larger overall but I think this is a beakers race so my position.
Ideally we would get CS at the very earliest possible while doing the most expansion possible... Expansion is easy there is plenty of room usually. There's only 1 Oracle and if we miss it by 1 turn, we lose hundreds of beakers/hammers from later CS, although beakers will partially be made for by the failure gold.
Am I right to think early research>land for a beakers race? I don't know but that's my gut feeling from the way I've played over the years. Trust me, I would love to know better and I am open to being convinced. :)
kossin Sep 16, 2010, 04:13 PM Only a few more hours.... then the fun starts!
BTW everyone has posted in the thread but Bugg123, whom I assume is still busy with RL so we'll give him some more time before bugging him :p
Duckweed Sep 16, 2010, 04:28 PM Who will be our EP target? I prefer Gandhi.
BTW, do you plan to transfer the earlier discussions to here?
- If there is Marble around and 1-2 resources, then Calendar may be sound. We will want golden ages enhanced by the MoM, right ? (Oracling Calendar and building the MoM right away may be premature, though).
Just notice this. Even if we have Marble, I prefer to capture it rather than build it ourselves. We can expect 4 GAs including the one from Taj. With the ambitious goal, a launch ~1700AD (T250) means 1st GA on T200, that's enough time for us to grab any city holding MoM.;)
kossin Sep 16, 2010, 08:07 PM @Duckweed
Gandhi as an EP target sounds good. He's the only one that can tech decently (with Roosevelt) on Agg AI. We can decide once we get a look at the save (they said some AIs might have more than Ecology...).
Yes I had planned to move the discussions but just didn't get around to do it as I either had no time or forgot when I did :D Will do it in ~1 hour.
About MoM and GAs: late GAs will bring in the most commerce+hammers there's no doubt about it. However an earlier GA might be profitable to generate some 2~3 Great Merchants to keep research running at 100%. Saving 10 turns earlier is worth saving 1 turn later...
That's something we learned in SGOTM11 for example if we decided to build UN in 2 turns instead of 1 with Delhi, we could have spawned that Great Merchant in Pataliputra to keep research @100% 10 more turns and overall win 9 turns faster.
Duckweed Sep 16, 2010, 08:49 PM Not exactly, while you gain 1 extra GM from Pat, you won't have enough time to produce the last GS from Delhi. Moreover, 1GM is not equal to 10 turns of research but ~5 turns, at 0% science slider, empire was generating considerable gold and beakers. That's why I said there was very little to be improved in our last game. Axe rush Zara could be an efficient way to improve, but before knowing the whole map, it was just a gambling decision early on.
The only early GA we could consider to launch early is the one from Taj. We might be forced by other AI and we probably want to massively switch civics at that time. I won't be optimistic on the GP production (especially GM) in this game as Cathy is neither Phi nor Spi.
kossin Sep 16, 2010, 09:21 PM If not Delhi then Madras had an extra GP ready (3 more turns). If I remember correctly there was about 6 more turns available for spawning the last GP from the time we actually had 4 GPs on the Fur.
Anyway, it's partly irrelevant now but if we can find a good GP farm and 1/2 other cities with good food I'd consider 1~3 cash bombs as the overall yield becomes better than a GS bulb.
kossin Sep 16, 2010, 09:52 PM I've edited Post #2 with links to the pre-game discussion that I copied over from the private thread.
It was fairly long (over 100k characters) so I had to split it up in 4 parts, hence the links in Post #2.
E-mail addresses were removed for identity protection and privacy. I think I got all of them (via Replace All function) but I might have missed some so let me know if I did and I'll fix it ASAP.
dingding Sep 17, 2010, 02:39 AM Just threw a glance on the save.
Each AI has one city and their cap is pre-settled at pop 1.
Apparently their BFCs are less covered by the fallout than ours.
They also have much more techs than we do (we have 40+ points and they have 60-70 points).
Some AI seem to have a decent force so we'd better be careful.
Will play tonight.
@ Duckweed:
EP will be put equally to each AI at the beginning.
Then exclusively to the first AI we meet in order to check its power graph (see if Archery is needed).
Then we'll discuss on whom to put.
BornInCantaloup Sep 17, 2010, 02:42 AM @ Duckweed :
Fair enough about MoM.
I figured that if we gunned for it we would have it long before it would become relevant.
Axe rush Zara could be an efficient way to improve, but before knowing the whole map, it was just a gambling decision early on.
By the way, do we leave open the possibility to rush a neighbour even if we go for Oracle --> CS ?
Capturing a capital may be a nice way to have an AI to open border with.
Some AI seem to have a decent force so we'd better be careful.
Is there a possibility their force comes from techs rather than units ?
Duckweed Sep 17, 2010, 06:11 AM Just threw a glance on the save.
Each AI has one city and their cap is pre-settled at pop 1.
Apparently their BFCs are less covered by the fallout than ours.
They also have much more techs than we do (we have 40+ points and they have 60-70 points).
Some AI seem to have a decent force so we'd better be careful.
Will play tonight.
@ Duckweed:
EP will be put equally to each AI at the beginning.
Then exclusively to the first AI we meet in order to check its power graph (see if Archery is needed).
Then we'll discuss on whom to put.
So far I can tell from the demographic is
1. Most of AI's (except 1) capital is coastal.
2. The most powerful AI won't be our neighbor, he is too powerful for us and is very possibly Stalin.
So I don't think it's necessary to wait the contact to determine the EP target.
Edit: Regarding the score
After we settle the city, our score is close to AIs, 1 AI probably does not even have Ecology and some AIs probably don't have archery.
Duckweed Sep 17, 2010, 06:21 AM If not Delhi then Madras had an extra GP ready (3 more turns). If I remember correctly there was about 6 more turns available for spawning the last GP from the time we actually had 4 GPs on the Fur.
Anyway, it's partly irrelevant now but if we can find a good GP farm and 1/2 other cities with good food I'd consider 1~3 cash bombs as the overall yield becomes better than a GS bulb.
The calculation of the winning date is rather complicated since we have to consider factors from every aspect. If we produce a GM from Pat (When can we produce it?), then we can start 100% research 5~6 turns earlier during the research before SM), which means we will lose the effect from wonders 5~6 turns earlier (including lot of GPPs), so we will lose the last GP from Delhi for sure. The question is can Delhi be capable of producing the 2nd last GS fast enough to bulb Electricity? That GS is the determination factor and the one I referred in last post.
There's pretty big difference of GAs in early and late stage. The number of pop could be doubled or tripled after we conquer other AIs in other continent, which means the gain (which is more than 1GP for sure) from GA is doubled or tripled. Moreover, before Sushi is found, other cities have little chance to produce a GP when Capital is doing wonder spam. After AL and Sushi, building wealth will take care of the maintenance deficit, GS is able to outproduce GM when empire is big enough in late game.
By the way, do we leave open the possibility to rush a neighbour even if we go for Oracle --> CS ?
Capturing a capital may be a nice way to have an AI to open border with.
I guess decision has to depend on how far is his capital from us, my feeling is that it's on the other side of our continent and on hill.
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 06:55 AM Well this is great, nukes were launched against everyone (-5 diplo off the bat) so there will be global warming and more fallout coming in early on I think. We might be forced, with some very bad luck about fallout, to get 3-workers earlier than anticipated.
Gandhi has Alphabet! This might be good as several of the AIs can trade at bad relations. However it makes it a lot more hard to Oracle CS.
As for Soldiers, it's only 1 AI with 230k soldiers... Stalin without a doubt. The others have their usual starting numbers (Archery+Hunting is 8k). And I assume that means they gave Stalin a few nukes. (Tacs = 30k, ICBM = 40k)
Fission is 8k, Rocketry 10k, Mining Hunting are 2k, Archery 6k so that's 28k. 230-28 = 202, let's say 200.
I assume Rocketry as they are required for building ICBMs and Tacs... then again maybe not.
It can be:
-2 ICBMs 4 Tacs
-5 ICBMs
-less and he gets even more techs to start
Not sure what this means in terms of early game... will he nuke us early? Does he see us?
What's certain is we won't be able to barter peace with him easily.
Landwise... the AIs don't seem to have any pre-made improvements, this is good.
As dingding said they are fare less covered by fallout than we are, having at the least 57 (to our 50) life expectancy and as much as 77 (presumably Mao due to Expansive).
Every AI has at least 1 water tile in his first culture ring as the highest land total is 8000. One of them has 5000 and the average is 5666 -> 40-8-5 = 27/5 -> 5+5+5+6+6 or 5+5+5+5+7
Most AIs capitals are coastal which reduces the amount of fallout in their capital... might explain their life expectancy numbers.
This means that GLH becomes difficult to grab.
I'm not sure I understand very well why the hammers+food of AIs are so low?
4 food means a 2F tile (2+2 from city tile).
3 food means 1F tile
2F means 0F tile*
In hammers they have one at 3 (2H tile) and the rest seemingly at 1 (0H tile, only city tile).
Either they have some pretty bad land 2F, 0F1H (doubtful), a building allowing them to run a specialist that doesn't yield a hammer or I don't know...
In terms of GNP, things appear normal. We'll get more than them due to Cathy being Creative but it seems several of them aren't working a commerce tile.
That leaves land seeing.
Looking at the land... I can only see forests and some mountains/hills. Apparently no jungle close by. Fallout makes it easier to look in the fog ;)
Screenshot looking southwest.
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3246/mousecivscreenshot002.jpg (http://img203.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mousecivscreenshot002.jpg)
I don't have time to check the sounds right now as I have to leave for classes very soon and I haven't taken a shower yet this morning!
Duckweed Sep 17, 2010, 09:37 AM Well this is great, nukes were launched against everyone (-5 diplo off the bat) so there will be global warming and more fallout coming in early on I think. We might be forced, with some very bad luck about fallout, to get 3-workers earlier than anticipated.
:confused: The global warming is affected by the pollution from cities, but not from the tile outside culture.
Gandhi has Alphabet! This might be good as several of the AIs can trade at bad relations. However it makes it a lot more hard to Oracle CS.
Gandhi might not has contact with other AIs.
As for Soldiers, it's only 1 AI with 230k soldiers... Stalin without a doubt. The others have their usual starting numbers (Archery+Hunting is 8k). And I assume that means they gave Stalin a few nukes. (Tacs = 30k, ICBM = 40k)
Fission is 8k, Rocketry 10k, Mining Hunting are 2k, Archery 6k so that's 28k. 230-28 = 202, let's say 200.
I assume Rocketry as they are required for building ICBMs and Tacs... then again maybe not.
It can be:
-2 ICBMs 4 Tacs
-5 ICBMs
-less and he gets even more techs to start
Not sure what this means in terms of early game... will he nuke us early? Does he see us?
What's certain is we won't be able to barter peace with him easily.
Look at AIs' score, Any AI won't have more than 1 modern era tech. Gandhi does not have 1. Most possibly Stalin has tactical nukes which are good for defense. Any idea to deal with those nukes.
Landwise... the AIs don't seem to have any pre-made improvements, this is good.
As dingding said they are fare less covered by fallout than we are, having at the least 57 (to our 50) life expectancy and as much as 77 (presumably Mao due to Expansive).
Every AI has at least 1 water tile in his first culture ring as the highest land total is 8000. One of them has 5000 and the average is 5666 -> 40-8-5 = 27/5 -> 5+5+5+6+6 or 5+5+5+5+7
There are 6 AIs. 5.666*6 = 34 -> 34-8-5 = 21/4, so all of the rest are coastal.
Most AIs capitals are coastal which reduces the amount of fallout in their capital... might explain their life expectancy numbers.
This means that GLH becomes difficult to grab.
Right, but if you don't try, you'll never get it. Due to the aggressive AI and fallout, the wonder date in this game should be slower, we know that GLH ~1000BC is a decent date in emperor, so ~500BC should be a good date in this game.
I'm not sure I understand very well why the hammers+food of AIs are so low?
4 food means a 2F tile (2+2 from city tile).
3 food means 1F tile
2F means 0F tile*
In hammers they have one at 3 (2H tile) and the rest seemingly at 1 (0H tile, only city tile).
Either they have some pretty bad land 2F, 0F1H (doubtful), a building allowing them to run a specialist that doesn't yield a hammer or I don't know...
The 1st citizen could work on forest plain hill.
Guys, please vote on the issues raised as soon as possible so that the active player can start to play.:) Time is very tense for this game!
iggymnrr Sep 17, 2010, 10:42 AM Good luck. I decided to follow this game and only this team. Hope you don't mind a fan in the stands.
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 10:54 AM EP target: I agree to put it on Gandhi, however dingding is free to use it in the first few turns to try learning something about the AIs as he proposed.
@Duckweed
Global Warming is often triggered by the launching of first nuke... I think it will be much easier for it to start, that's all I meant.
It should be noted by everyone that during my play test, I never experienced any effects from global warming i.e. no terrain changes and no extra fallout. I did not check all tiles, but I would be surprised if any team run into issues with global warming.
That solves this issue...
Gandhi does indeed not have contact r(ight away but surely that can't last forever). Maybe the reason why he doesn't have Ecology is he might be on an island by himself with 0 fallout at all (and presumably, great land). His lower life expectancy can be explained by Flood Plains and few forests.
Regarding Stalin... you are right, the score doesn't match the techs I assumed he has. Giving him Fission in the test game puts him at 68 pts whereas Ecology gives him 74 = actual game... so no one has Fission, that's good, there are only a few Tacs/ICBMs available for the moment.
Best way to deal with those is to send in sacrifice units at some point and hope he wastes his nukes on them.
GLH: I didn't mean to say I wanted to avoid trying it, just that if we want it we need better emphasis!
Food yield/hammer yield:
The problem with a 0F3H is you'd see 4 in MFG goods, the highest count is only 3 (1/2/3 city tile and 0/1/2/3 from first citizen). Therefore it doesn't explain why 1 AI is only having 2 food because not enough hammers are present (unless he has really really sucky land like I said or running a specialist for some reason...).
EDIT: had 5 minutes to look at the game so here's another Flying Camera screenshot, this time looking north east.
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7862/civ4screenshot0000d.jpg (http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=civ4screenshot0000d.jpg)
There's clearly land (island) close by due to the forest we can see 5~6 tiles away. Hard to say if we can access it by settling in place right now but I'd bet settling 2N1E would get it though.
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 10:57 AM Good luck. I decided to follow this game and only this team. Hope you don't mind a fan in the stands.
Nah, welcome! Feel free to cheer on :D:banana:
BornInCantaloup Sep 17, 2010, 11:08 AM Food yield/hammer yield:
The problem with a 0F3H is you'd see 4 in MFG goods, the highest count is only 3 (1/2/3 city tile and 0/1/2/3 from first citizen). Therefore it doesn't explain why 1 AI is only having 2 food because not enough hammers are present (unless he has really really sucky land like I said or running a specialist for some reason...).
Maybe a 2F2C tile (plains hill riverside gold) building a workboat ?
@ Issues at hand :
I think I gave my opinion on what matters right now. The plan is ok with me.
I didn't test it (time !!!) but I don't mind if DingDing plays "tonight". If he doesn't, then I'll test tomorrow. Otherwise, we'll have much more knowledge to discuss many more things, which suits me.
@Flying camera :
Neat looking.
@ iggymnrr :
I hope you'll enjoy your read :)
I've read from somewhere that "comments" are somewhat restricted (because you're allowed to read other threads and shouldn't inform us, that line of thought). Maybe you should see with AlanH and get into the team ? That way you'll lurk officially ;)
BornInCantaloup Sep 17, 2010, 11:18 AM There's clearly land (island) close by due to the forest we can see 5~6 tiles away. Hard to say if we can access it by settling in place right now but I'd bet settling 2N1E would get it though.
Do you think that's a reason to reconsider our settling location ?
Your wording lets me guess... no. You're having fun, right ? :lol:
hydraculas Sep 17, 2010, 01:02 PM I got some problem. It seems that I can not open the saving and it said ' the save file you have selected is protected to ensure that the assets in your mod folder have not been changed'
I can open our test saving before. However each time when I load the BUFFY_SG12 mod, it said game played will not be valid for submission unless I use an user account with admin access.
It is strange because I always use an admin account to run the game.
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 01:18 PM Not at home right now but maybe ask in the Maintenance Thread?
dingding Sep 17, 2010, 01:47 PM Played and uploaded here.
You guys may be glad to SIP:
Here is the final surroundings and demography:
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt338/dingdingzhu/Civ4ScreenShot1615.jpg
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt338/dingdingzhu/Civ4ScreenShot1616.jpg
Comments:
The surprise is that Horse is found 2N1E, just under the second settlement spot. With it, we may want to revise the X-worker opening.
Another exciting discovery is that 2 elephants and 1 cow are found at the 2nd city spot. That being said two things: 1) GLH is ensured; 2) the 2nd city requires more improvements: logistics and worker moves are needed as well.
The northern passage seems to be very narrow (zoom in, we can see the left side is ocean as well). The western zone seems juicy and reserved for us.
About other AIs' activities:
AIs don't know each other, even after 20+ turns. I'm quite sure that they kept spamming units instead of workers (their city and power had growth).
It may be too early to say that they are far from each other, but one thing for certain: Stalin should be the farthest AI to us (with the EP +%), while Roosevelt and Gandhi seem nearest.
Gandhi's tech path is quite particular: Archery=>Masonry=>Agri. Under Aggressive AI, everyone prioritizes military techs. So religions came late as well. But I'm surprised that AI has much bonus on tech, and they tech quite fast even with their EP slider on: each of them accumulates a decent amount of EP on us.
Some leaders are given techs according to their favorite civic: Mao revolted to SP, Roosevelt to Rep and De Gaulle to Nationhood.
Enclosed the saves on T0 (after settlement) and the turn when TW is finished (and when I stopped).
I need to run some test games to evaluate the impact of the horse.
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 02:06 PM @hydraculas
Just got home. That error reminds me of when I use the BULL .dll instead of the regular Civ .dll (found C:\Program Files\Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Assets). If you do not have the original .dll it will give that error I think... I'll edit in the link to the file in a few minutes.
@dingding
Excellent play!
I'll update the test game soonish so we can check the game. My guess is early second city is even better now because of great tiles it will have!
It's kind of a bummer that De Gaulle gets Nationalism to start... I doubt we have a shot at Taj Mahal now.
Mao is gonna be fun to watch with SP in his hand so early!
I'm kinda puzzled as to what the AI lands look like as a result... no or near none fallout?
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 02:22 PM @hydraculas:
Some pages that may help you.
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php?show=assetschecker << Download and Run this. It should tell you if you have the wrong copy of a file.
Others...
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php?show=vista
Can't find the link to the original .dll but if it's that file I'll upload it for you.
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 02:52 PM But I'm surprised that AI has much bonus on tech, and they tech quite fast even with their EP slider on: each of them accumulates a decent amount of EP on us.
The fast teching is due to them getting the Era bonuses from turn 0...
Anyway, here's the test game.
EDIT:
@hydraculas
Here's the original CivGameCore.dll in case that's the faulty item.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/Civ4_BtS_DLLs.zip
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 03:23 PM Ran a test...
1. We can delay BW I think... the odds of having Copper in BFC with horses already present and Ivory next door -> 0
Unless we want to rely on chops to help with #2...
2. I find it hard to keep up on improvements with only 2 workers ! However building a 3rd leaves us a bit behind on population compared to improvements... what a strange situation.
dingding Sep 17, 2010, 04:01 PM @ hydraculas:
If you're under Vista, you need to launch Civ 4 by right-clicking the icon and selecting "run as admin". So the save can be valid for submission
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 04:10 PM Well... this is foul play!
Under F9 tab...
Warriors Lost: 84!
Looking under Event Tab, Combat Log... those foolish warriors have attacked a bunch of Modern Armors from everyone sooooooooo...
They have a bunch of war success against us, getting Peace Treaties will not be easy at all.
Finally in case you hadn't noticed, Stalin has been given Manhattan Project in his capital.... ya.
Despite the difficulty being Emperor, it will play around Immortal maybe a bit more. Not that I'm complaining ;)
hydraculas Sep 17, 2010, 04:29 PM Here's the original CivGameCore.dll in case that's the faulty item.
http://gotm.civfanatics.net/civ4games/Civ4_BtS_DLLs.zip
No that's the CivGameCore file of the Origin version and Warlords, not for BTS3.19
Can you upload your CivGameCore file of BTS?
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 04:31 PM oopsies, just a moment.
EDIT: done
hydraculas Sep 17, 2010, 04:31 PM I can open kossin's test save but I can not open dingding's test save. Strange~~~
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 04:33 PM ^^dingding's saves are the real game.
My test game is created without 'Lock Modified Assets' so that I can access WorldBuilder to edit the map.
hydraculas Sep 17, 2010, 04:36 PM So he played the real game? Does this mean that he put his roster at front and we need to continue his saves?
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 05:20 PM So he played the real game? Does this mean that he put his roster at front and we need to continue his saves?
There is 1 official save for everyone it's the one he posted. Everyone can play the test game but only 1 can play the official. The order is determined by the roster.
So yes we will continue from his save once we decide on a course of action via test game.
hydraculas Sep 17, 2010, 05:47 PM So dingding played the offical save and I still can not open it.
I guess it has something related to the REG files of Civ4 because I re-install my OS last month and the Assetschecker can not find the civ4 path. The mod can not recognize the Admin account because of the REG problem and that's why I can't open the official save.
I have add the reg files for times but it still doesn't work.
In the worst case, I need to re-install Civ4.
hydraculas Sep 17, 2010, 05:50 PM @kossin
I have seen your test save. Is the surrounding same as the official save? I can already see the whole map in WB.
Duckweed Sep 17, 2010, 06:30 PM @hydraculas
Have you followed everything in this page?
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/mod.php?show=vista
Especially the picture right above "3. Crashes & Compatibility Mode" make sure you check the 2 boxes in that window.
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 06:31 PM http://forums.civfanatics.com/forumdisplay.php?f=268
Fresh install or try your luck at the BUG forum or one of the xOTM help topics.
The test game is an exact copy of the official save so far from what we see/know... Any tests there are valid and can be applied to real game.
Duckweed Sep 17, 2010, 06:36 PM It's kind of a bummer that De Gaulle gets Nationalism to start... I doubt we have a shot at Taj Mahal now.
I have not checked the save yet. That's seems strange, as French can't have both Nat and Ecology from the beginning. Does that mean more AIs don't have Ecology?
Duckweed Sep 17, 2010, 06:43 PM The build and tech path seems obvious next.
Tech:
Fishing->Sailing->Writing->BW
Build:
Capital:warriors to size 3->settler->worker->worker->lib
Fish city: WB->LH
The worker sent to remove the fallout should stay there and improve the cow->Ivories next. workers in and from capital improve Cow->2 gold mine->rice and we should send another worker to 2nd city at some point.
Looking forward to dingding's plan next.
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 06:46 PM Yes most of them don't have it.
For example (I forget who) has Constitution, no Ecology.
Similarily Mao has Communism, no Ecology.
From what I can tell only Stalin might have Ecology... Not Fission.
I tried matching the civ points in the 4000 BC save knowing what civics they went into.
I gave Biology to Roosevelt as that was the first tech I tried that made the scores match.
hydraculas Sep 17, 2010, 08:20 PM I fixed the REG problem and assetschecker showed something error.
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4Bloom.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4FlagDecal.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4Leaderheadshader.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4Mech.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4SkinningTeamColor.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4TorusFur.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4Wave.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\ContourShader.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\CultureBOrderShader.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\PlotIndicator.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\River.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Symbols.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Terrain_splatTile.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Anyone upload these files? All in file FX0
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 08:29 PM Well that's a possibility, I'll give it a try to see how it feels. Other option is to grow the capital to 4 before doing another worker - however I need to try it before proposing it I suppose :D
@hydraculas
Yea gimme 1 minute.
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 08:30 PM There you go... I included the whole folder just in case.
hydraculas Sep 17, 2010, 08:48 PM Very strange, still error: files do not match
Is it AssetsChecker v2.2.2? Have you run it ?
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 09:03 PM Yea I tried that version and it seemed to be working correctly.
One question: have you installed regular BUFFY?
hydraculas Sep 17, 2010, 09:13 PM Yes, I installed BUFFY-3.19.003
In fact, the mod itself showed error.
BTS Files - Path: E:\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BTS: Assets\CvGameCoreDLL.dll,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\CvGameCoreDLL.dll,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\Python\Contrib\RandomNameUtils.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\Python\Contrib\TechWindow.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\Python\Contrib\TechWindowWide.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\Python\Screens\CvCustomizableDomes ticAdvisor.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\Advanced Combat Odds Options.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\AdvancedCombatOdds_CIV4Ga meText.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\Autolog_CIV4GameText.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\AutoSave Options.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\BUFFY_CIV4GameText.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\BuffyOptions_CIV4GameText .xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\BUG_CIV4GameText.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\BUGHints_CIV4GameText.xml ,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\BUGOptions_CIV4GameText.x ml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\BULL Actions Options.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\BULL City Bar Options.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\BULL Misc Hovers Options.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\BULL_CIV4GameText.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\Civ4lerts Options.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\Civ4lerts_CIV4GameText.xm l,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\CIV4PlotListEnhancementsI nfo.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\Colors_CIV4GameText.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\CustDomAdv Options.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\CustDomAdv_CIV4GameText.x ml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\EventSigns_CIV4GameText.x ml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\GlobalWarming_CIV4GameTex t.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\GovernorWorkers_CIV4GameT ext.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\MapFinder Options.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\MapFinder_CIV4GameText.xm l,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\MoreCiv4lerts Options.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\MoreCiv4lerts_CIV4GameTex t.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\SentryActions_CIV4GameTex t.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\Sevopedia_CIV4GameText.xm l,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\Shortcuts_CIV4GameText.xm l,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\StrategyOverlay_CIV4GameT ext.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Mods\BUFFY-3.19.003\Assets\XML\Text\TraitsPedia_CIV4GameText. xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4Bloom.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4FlagDecal.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4Leaderheadshader.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4Mech.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4SkinningTeamColor.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4TorusFur.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4Wave.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\ContourShader.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\CultureBOrderShader.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\PlotIndicator.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\River.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Symbols.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Terrain_splatTile.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
* * * BTS: 50 Errors have been found * * *
kossin Sep 17, 2010, 09:16 PM Well I'm pretty clueless at this point...
Try posting the log in this thread:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=329261
If you're lucky EmperorFool will find it quickly and he can help you much better than anyone else.
dingding Sep 18, 2010, 03:15 AM After some tests, I can say the apparency of the Horse is irrelevant to our micro.
- It may accelerate the settler by 1 turn but the 2nd city is hence less developed.
- Also tried 3-worker opening with horse improved prior to gold, but with a delay of 4 turns of the 2nd city. 2nd city is pretty good, it should be settled down ASAP.
- The 3rd city: with the info we have, we don't have a very good site for it so it can be delayed.
From longer tests, Oracle=>CS can be done around 800BC.
Will submit the plan later. basically no big change from the initial one.
BornInCantaloup Sep 18, 2010, 03:58 AM Nice play, DingDing !
I'm a bit worried we don't see many health resources. Maybe we will have to go 2x workboat in the 2nd city to get the clams.
@The Horse : good news to have it but if we improve it right now, then we won't be able to improve the gold and clear the fallout before the settler is on the spot.
3rd improvement should remain the riverside gold, I guess.
@Next set : until when does it last ?
On T42 our 3 improvements are done and both workers are available. Settler ready in 4 turns.
When we settle the 2nd city, it has -2 food from fallout with 12 fallout tiles.
It doesn't matter as long as we're building the workboat but that would only last for 8 turns.
--> Improving the rice is a priority. We should also consider clearing 2 fallout tiles so that the city can be healthy when it reaches size 2.
--> 3rd worker at size 3 is a must. The capital is at its health cap at size 3 but clearing the fallout on the rice will give +1 health (9 fallout tiles atm).
--> Do we clear the fallout on the desert tile between the capital and the 2nd city asap ? That tile + the cow tile north of the 2nd city would give +1 food to the 2nd city. And it would ease the workers movement a bit.
Overall, I guess 1 worker should remain by the 2nd city and the other should head back to the rice.
@ Tech path :
Fishing -> Sailing -> Writing next suits me.
BW... maybe yes, maybe not. If we aren't in a position to whip and the land doesn't reveal many more forests and we don't meet face to face with some AIs, then it would "only" reveal the copper resources.
Do we have any other techs to get in priority ?
Masonry : would that be premature ? Maybe yes.
Related : Are the religion dates in the testgame the real ones ? If Judaism was founded in 2480 BC (brutal !), then we may want to revise our ambitions regarding the Oracle...
Then skipping BW and going for Priesthood instead might make sense.
EDIT : edited. This post is a mess...
kossin Sep 18, 2010, 06:13 AM No I did not monitor AI teching at all as there's not enough info available and removing a tech from an AI doesn't do much as they can get it back in 1 turn... I tried in the last SGOTM but couldn't understand why some AIs kept getting a tech I had removed.
kossin Sep 18, 2010, 08:54 AM CS from Oracle feels risky by 800 BC ... Even for Agg AI. In my games Gandhi has gotten it around 900 BC several times. We will need to monitor his tech path to decide what we select from Oracle, no other choice.
GLH is a slow build in second city. With the capital tied with GS spawning whipping in the second city will be useful I think. However without the granary it's not great... With granary you lose research (Oracle) and hammers that would go in GLH otherwise.
I know bulbing Mathematics isn't optimal by any means but it's the best shot at securing CS via Oracle... However we might as well Oracle something else than bulb Mathematics for the long run.
Say we Oracle Currency, build GLH and start REXXing while focusing on CS the good old way? There are several advantages with this.
nishant1911 Sep 18, 2010, 09:52 AM I fixed the REG problem and assetschecker showed something error.
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4Bloom.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4FlagDecal.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4Leaderheadshader.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4Mech.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4SkinningTeamColor.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4TorusFur.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Civ4Wave.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\ContourShader.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\CultureBOrderShader.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\PlotIndicator.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\River.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Symbols.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
BTS: Shaders\FXO\Terrain_splatTile.fx,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Anyone upload these files? All in file FX0
folder inside shaders is FXO? maybe its just supposed to be FX.
hydraculas Sep 18, 2010, 10:13 AM After I updated NET Framework, some problems are fixed. Now seems that no errors were found in BTS.
There are errors found in Vanilla Files and Warlords Files. Does it have something to do with the issue? Anyone please upload these files, under these folders:
Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Assets\Python
Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Assets\XML\
Sid Meier's Civilization 4\PublicMaps\
Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Warlords\Shaders\FXO\
Here are my check report:
Vanilla Files - Path: E:\Sid Meier's Civilization 4
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Vanilla: Assets\Python\CvEventManager.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: Assets\Python\CvUtil.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: Assets\Python\EntryPoints\CvAppInterface.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: Assets\Python\EntryPoints\CvOptionsScreenCallbackI nterface.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: Assets\Python\pyWB\CvWBDesc.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: Assets\Python\Screens\CvInfoScreen.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: Assets\Python\Screens\CvIntroMovieScreen.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: Assets\Python\Screens\CvMainInterface.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: Assets\Python\Screens\CvOptionsScreen.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: Assets\Python\Screens\CvWorldBuilderDiplomacyScree n.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: Assets\Python\Screens\CvWorldBuilderScreen.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: Assets\XML\Art\CIV4ArtDefines_Leaderhead.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: Assets\XML\BasicInfos\CIV4BasicInfos.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: Assets\XML\GlobalDefines.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: PublicMaps\Archipelago.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: PublicMaps\Continents.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: PublicMaps\Fractal.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: PublicMaps\Great_Plains.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: PublicMaps\Highlands.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: PublicMaps\Ice_Age.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: PublicMaps\Inland_Sea.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: PublicMaps\Lakes.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: PublicMaps\Oasis.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: PublicMaps\Pangaea.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: PublicMaps\Shuffle.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: PublicMaps\Terra.py,<-- Error: Files do not Match
* * * Vanilla: 26 Errors have been found * * *
Warlords Files - Path: E:\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Warlords
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Warlords: Shaders\FXO\Civ4Bloom.fx,<-- Error: Not Found
Warlords: Shaders\FXO\Civ4FlagDecal.fx,<-- Error: Not Found
Warlords: Shaders\FXO\Civ4Leaderheadshader.fx,<-- Error: Not Found
Warlords: Shaders\FXO\Civ4Mech.fx,<-- Error: Not Found
Warlords: Shaders\FXO\Civ4SkinningTeamColor.fx,<-- Error: Not Found
Warlords: Shaders\FXO\Civ4TorusFur.fx,<-- Error: Not Found
Warlords: Shaders\FXO\Civ4Wave.fx,<-- Error: Not Found
Warlords: Shaders\FXO\ContourShader.fx,<-- Error: Not Found
Warlords: Shaders\FXO\CultureBOrderShader.fx,<-- Error: Not Found
Warlords: Shaders\FXO\PlotIndicator.fx,<-- Error: Not Found
Warlords: Shaders\FXO\River.fx,<-- Error: Not Found
Warlords: Shaders\FXO\Symbols.fx,<-- Error: Not Found
Warlords: Shaders\FXO\Terrain_splatTile.fx,<-- Error: Not Found
Warlords: Shaders\FXO\Water.fx,<-- Error: Not Found
* * * Warlords: 14 Errors have been found * * *
BTS Files - Path: E:\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* * * BTS: No Errors were found * * *
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* * * 40 Errors have been found * * *
kossin Sep 18, 2010, 10:31 AM Most of the files don't even matter as they are graph related by the looks of it :confused:
I'll upload them in a moment, but if it's still not working maybe you might want to uninstall/reinstall in the original location (C:\) if you have enough disk space.
EDIT: here are the 26 vanilla files. I don't have the Warlords files so they shouldn't matter as it works for me (and they show up as missing when I run the check as well).
hydraculas Sep 18, 2010, 11:15 AM Yeah it works!!! :lol:
Thank u so much kossin!
kossin Sep 18, 2010, 11:33 AM Hurray!
Great to hear, now we can focus on the task at hand :D
Well, not so much for me today, I'm leaving in half an hour for the rest of the day but I'll check in from my mobile when I can.
BornInCantaloup Sep 19, 2010, 03:37 AM 1) CS from Oracle feels risky by 800 BC ... Even for Agg AI. In my games Gandhi has gotten it around 900 BC several times. We will need to monitor his tech path to decide what we select from Oracle, no other choice.
2) GLH is a slow build in second city. With the capital tied with GS spawning whipping in the second city will be useful I think. However without the granary it's not great... With granary you lose research (Oracle) and hammers that would go in GLH otherwise.
3) I know bulbing Mathematics isn't optimal by any means but it's the best shot at securing CS via Oracle... However we might as well Oracle something else than bulb Mathematics for the long run.
4) Say we Oracle Currency, build GLH and start REXXing while focusing on CS the good old way? There are several advantages with this.
1) Yes, monitoring Gandhi's research would be nice. Hmmm... There's a "however", though.
Overall, it would be much more secure, but we need at least Meditation/Polytheism to know whether he has Priesthood or not from the "trade techs" screen. If we have espionage superiority over him, then it would be a different story.
If we research Med/Poly (with really little benefit since we're CRE), then it will slow us on the path to Maths/CoL, incurring a reversed snowball effect :crazyeye:
2) Yep, Granaries would be cool to REX. However, if we do stick to the Oracle --> CS plan, then it is unreasonable to tech Pottery, imho. If we all agree to lower our ambitions, then maybe we can afford Pottery (we have 2 gold mines to fund our research, after all). It should be decided before this turnset if we want Pottery before Writing (discount !).
3) Agreed. Bulbing Maths to Oracle CS makes me eeek... But maybe I don't see the benefits well enough.
4) Maths + Oracle Currency is fast and allows to expand without any limit. I won't complain if we go this way, especially if we build axemen.
I feel CoL + Oracle Philosophy would be more potent, though. It wouldn't add to our commerce but would give us very easy GPs, despite not being Philosophical (which, in the end, is the same as adding to our commerce ; it would come at the cost of some expansion, though, granted). We would also gain 2 religions in the process, which is nice with the Always war setting (we wouldn't care to run a different religion than that of Stalin, right ?). Finally, getting Confucianism "blocks" the AIs on their path to Civil Service, while Taoism "blocks" them on their path to Liberalism (less priority on those techs after the religion is founded). This would give us more flexibility in the mid game, I believe.
(There are other advantages to Maths + Currency but I guess you're better aware of them than I am, so I won't try to develop on that point.)
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 07:37 AM The problem with Philosophy is we don't have enough food to run specs. The capital is just too good at production/commerce to run specialists... second city is pretty similar. If scouting reveals a potent 3rd city location as a good GP farm that can be settled soonish then maybe.
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 08:01 AM Sorry for spamming again but it's been almost 48 hours since the last set was played and we have no news from dingding.
hydraculas, can you take it?
Duckweed Sep 19, 2010, 09:22 AM Sorry for spamming again but it's been almost 48 hours since the last set was played and we have no news from dingding.
hydraculas, can you take it?
:goodjob: I think this is necessary to keep our team to be competitive. If we don't catch time now, I don't see how could we play a well-planned game without rushing in the end. I can't say for others, but myself will totally support the captain's job and obey the policies.
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 09:31 AM Issues for now:
-Tech path: Fishing>Sailing>??? or something different
-build orders in capital.
-worker micro
-scouting direction
-anything I'm not thinking of for now
Pretty much everything else will depend on what our scouting warriors discover and what the AI do!
For myself I'd say GLH will be good to have for REX purposes so Sailing should be completed by the time city #2 has a workboat finished
Fishing>Sailing>Pottery or Writing
Pottery if we decide to abandon CS sling as it is kinda risky I think
Capital: warriors to size 3 then settler, 2x workers
Worker micro: cow, riverside gold then split workers between 2 cities
Scouting: it's a good guess to say that the north part is a peninsula so I'd send the first warrior southwest while zig-zag-ing to cover the most land
Set should be at least 15 turns, preferably a bit more.
Duckweed Sep 19, 2010, 09:36 AM CS from Oracle feels risky by 800 BC ... Even for Agg AI. In my games Gandhi has gotten it around 900 BC several times. We will need to monitor his tech path to decide what we select from Oracle, no other choice.
GLH is a slow build in second city. With the capital tied with GS spawning whipping in the second city will be useful I think. However without the granary it's not great... With granary you lose research (Oracle) and hammers that would go in GLH otherwise.
I know bulbing Mathematics isn't optimal by any means but it's the best shot at securing CS via Oracle... However we might as well Oracle something else than bulb Mathematics for the long run.
Say we Oracle Currency, build GLH and start REXXing while focusing on CS the good old way? There are several advantages with this.
I don't know how Gandhi behaved in your test game, did he also skip religions in the beginning? Yes, monitoring his tech position can give us some clues, but PH is only 1 aspect of the Oracle, his decision on whether building the oracle is another factor. This is a game competing with other human players, the safest way to play the game won't win, but the one getting the best gain with certain risk wins. How's the result of 2 cities and 3 cities (3rd city on the southern tip)?
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 09:43 AM 3rd city on southern tip is rather weak with only 1 rice =\
800BC is far away... Gandhi will have PH before that date and attempt Oracle even if we start it before.
I'll post some numbers in ~20 minutes for third city.
BornInCantaloup Sep 19, 2010, 10:02 AM Issues for now:
For myself I'd say GLH will be good to have for REX purposes so Sailing should be completed by the time city #2 has a workboat finished
Fishing>Sailing>Pottery or Writing
Pottery if we decide to abandon CS sling as it is kinda risky I think
Is Pottery compatible with the GLH slowbuild ? I feel as if it's one or the other. We won't whip much if we're building a wonder, especially since city 2 has plenty of specials.
Worker micro: cow, riverside gold then split workers between 2 cities
Yep, but we also need to keep the workers together until the fallout under city 2 is cleared.
@ Set length :
2-3 techs ? If we want to give more thought about Pottery vs Writing and the Oracle slingshot, then maybe we can have the set last until Sailing is done. We will have explored a bit by then and maybe (or maybe not) spotted a yummy location for city 3.
So... If we know what our first 3 cities are, we should be able to run longer tests :)
@ Pacifism + Caste :
You're right, Kossin, we lack food and have too many specials to run mass specialists.
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 10:13 AM City on southern tip is rather cheap (goes from -3gpt to -6gpt at 100%) adds 2 commerce, 4 if we work coast (why would we want to...)
But as I said, it's pretty crappy in all aspects of a city. No forests for chop, no food and only a few hills.
Anyway, I finished CoL+Oracle on 750BC, t85. I have difficulty seeing how we can make it quicker than this, maybe 1 turn but not more I'd say.
City #2 runs into health issues fairly quickly so maybe we'll use it to work the riverside gold a few turns more instead of switching to the fish right away.
Slow-build GLH was 4 more turns, 5 because we'll want to revolt to Bureaucracy...
nishant1911 Sep 19, 2010, 10:15 AM umm, sorry to break the discussion but i can't open dingding save either:(
Vanilla: Assets\CvGameCoreDLL.dll,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: Assets\XML\Civilizations\CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
Vanilla: Assets\XML\GameInfo\CIV4HandicapInfo.xml,<-- Error: Files do not Match
bts and warlord don't show any error (uninstalled warlords)
it seems the last two were replaced by the BTS ones while i was experimenting with the XMLs. (i once actually made the AI win a BC space victory by turning there handicap to max):D
please upload them kossin if you still have some attachment space left:lol:
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 10:18 AM Ok nishant, just a minute.
@BIC will reply in 2 minutes.
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 10:23 AM Sum of all attachments owned by kossin: 59.61 MB
;)
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 10:29 AM Is Pottery compatible with the GLH slowbuild ? I feel as if it's one or the other. We won't whip much if we're building a wonder, especially since city 2 has plenty of specials.
To be honest I have not tried it but I think it would probably slow down GLH a little bit because 1:3 hammer tiles aren't matched by whipping even with a granary without Kremlin/hammer multipliers.
Yep, but we also need to keep the workers together until the fallout under city 2 is cleared.
Yea forgot to say that... I usually send worker #2 to clean up for only 2 turns so he can get to the rice faster.
@ Set length :
2-3 techs ? If we want to give more thought about Pottery vs Writing and the Oracle slingshot, then maybe we can have the set last until Sailing is done. We will have explored a bit by then and maybe (or maybe not) spotted a yummy location for city 3.
So... If we know what our first 3 cities are, we should be able to run longer tests :)
That's the idea, if we want to try GLH then going until the end of Sailing brings us at the start of t44, which is 17 turns from now (t27)
@ Pacifism + Caste :
You're right, Kossin, we lack food and have too many specials to run mass specialists.
Answers in bold.
nishant1911 Sep 19, 2010, 10:41 AM assets checker shows no problem but now i can't even start BTS.
i'll try posting in the that bug troubleshoot thread.
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 10:48 AM You know it might just be faster to uninstall/reinstall than waiting for a fix and then trying to move everything around?
:lol: :D :)
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 12:11 PM Still not wanna try for the GLH.
As we can see, considering the diplomatic penalty, we will be the worst enemy of AIs for a long time and we won't get any foreign trade routes. That will limit the benefit from GLH a lot. In this game, the colossus is even much better than GLH.
I noticed that the horse are not covered in fallout. If our worker gain the horse before the gold mine, we will get our settler and 3rd worker 2turns faster.
I have run a test like this:
http://i53.tinypic.com/2qmjii9.jpg
We settle city2 at turn46 and we will get worker3 at turn 49. The gold mine will be finished around turn49.
I connect a road on both of the gold mine. This will save turns for the workers and settlers. Then we need to consider the information brought by our worrier. If we found a close AI, we can connect the horse and make a chariot asap to capture workers.
Tech side, fishing->writing, wondering what we will do next. Anyway, I think the next set should end when city2 is built.
BornInCantaloup Sep 19, 2010, 12:39 PM ^So we can grow the capital to size 5 on a library.
Definitely has some merits.
Depending on the number of workers we want at size 3, then inserting Pottery before Writing may be nice for granaries.
If we don't go for the GLH in city 2, we may whip a bit for settlers/workers (Granary also gives +1 health with rice).
I'm uncertain about the GLH.
I guess my reasonning is that if we want to Oracle something big, then we can't afford too many settlers in the early game. Then we might as well build a wonder.
On the other hand, your approach seems much more flexible, Hydraculas.
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 12:43 PM Opening borders with Gandhi isn't so hard, buy Peace with a tech then OB the following turn.
Likewise, getting Peace with the others isn't so hard and bringing them to Cautious is also an option that isn't terribly difficult via tech gifting. (we have -5 from DoW+nuke, -1 from Emperor, +4 from tech, leaves room for another -1)
However pushing back an attempt on GLH after Oracle>CS is not entirely a bad idea, for one it more or less secures Oracle by 1000BC or maybe even earlier, making us tech that much faster afterwards. Also means city 2 can get a granary and start whipping in GLH... food for thought.
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 12:48 PM It would be best if we oracle something big. Dingding said Roosevelt and Gandhi are the nearest.( Considering the EP) If we are luckily on the same continent, we can use chariots to destroy their early economy and that will decrease two strong oracle competitor.
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 12:51 PM It would not be so easy as long as we are their worst enemy. And there are simply not enough cities for foreign routes, as we already have an early currency. I'm wondering the foreign routes are even not enough for currency.
Opening borders with Gandhi isn't so hard, buy Peace with a tech then OB the following turn.
Likewise, getting Peace with the others isn't so hard and bringing them to Cautious is also an option that isn't terribly difficult via tech gifting. (we have -5 from DoW+nuke, -1 from Emperor, +4 from tech, leaves room for another -1)
However pushing back an attempt on GLH after Oracle>CS is not entirely a bad idea, for one it more or less secures Oracle by 1000BC or maybe even earlier, making us tech that much faster afterwards. Also means city 2 can get a granary and start whipping in GLH... food for thought.
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 12:56 PM That's why I said OB with Gandhi next turn, the worst enemy status goes away with him the next turn as per the test game.
To OB we need to both:
-not be worst enemy
-reach minimum attitude for OB
Gandhi will OB at Furious, Stalin at Annoyed and others at Cautious.
However we'll be worst enemy as long as they are Annoyed -> we need to bring them to Cautious which is about 2 techs (buy Peace, gift tech).
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 01:06 PM +4 from tech need lots of big techs, I don't know if we can afford this. And gift each AI big techs seems a very big sacrifice.
What about prior horse than gold mine? Two turns early settler and worker sounds really attractive.
dingding Sep 19, 2010, 01:22 PM @ All:
Sorry about the delay. I have less time in Weekend than in Weekdays.
If hydraculas wants to take the set, please go ahead.
@ hydraculs:
I tested the different approaches between horse-first and gold-first. I think the latter beats the former because:
1) We're prioritizing beakers to hammers.
2) The second city can use the gold directly, otherwise we lose -1 food from unhealthy status.
True that using the horse can accelerate the 2nd city by 1 turn, but I don't think that's the point.
Would you like to submit the plan?
@ all:
I think keeping the war status is good for us for the moment, as I see AI prioritize EP and military techs particularly during the war, which slows down their tech and disrupts their tech path. I see more advantages than disadvantages of warring.
If the neighbor(s) don't have much merits of being conquered, we may want to keep it and OB with it ASAP. After Renaissance we'll have lots of possibilities to trade for the advanced techs they have (Nationalism, Constitution, Communism, etc.), I envisage to improve the relationship with them during the middle-age, but now it's premature.
GLH may still be worth a try even it may fails: it's still as good as hammering money. AIs' productions are indeed poor, we still have a decent chance to beat them on GLH by slow building. But now I need to consider it as unjustified because the Bottleneck of expansion is not maintenance fees (exclu. traderoads) but workers. GLH is worth 1 settler+3 workers, with which we can expand much more smoothly. Earlier/better expansion has also a snowball effect as Duckweed indicates.
OTOH, we still have the possibility to capture GLH.
Techs: Fishing=>Writing/Sailing is good to me. Then we can start Mysterism/CoL/Maths. We may want to delay Masonry as late as possible to get max bonus: AIs put it in high priority, I'm sure every of them will tech it sooner or later.
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 01:33 PM Early horses: it has advantages but also disadvantages, for example it delays the rice by a few turns and then the second gold by a few turns.
I'll look in the exact numbers in a little while.
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 01:34 PM @dingding
Actually it's two turns earlier of settler and worker3 if I change the worrier to settler when pops got 3. We have city2 at t46 and worker3 at t49. That's good. And we can also take use of the gold mine in turn 49, just 1turns later for city2. 2 turns ealier of city2 gain 2 turns of trade routes and other coins(tech: -2/+15), that's not bad at all.
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 01:51 PM @kossin
if we wanna keep settler>worker>worker at pop3, early horse should be take in consider because it's the most efficient when three pops work on 2 cows and one horse.
And that won't delay the rice so much since when the 4th worker finished, the rice will finished just in one turn.(I moved back worker3 to accelerate gold mine and rice, then sent worker 4 to city2)
dingding Sep 19, 2010, 01:55 PM @ hydraculas:
Gold first:
Gold at t41.
2nd city at t47.
3rd worker at t51.
Horse first:
Gold at t49
2nd city at t46
3rd worker at t49
Comparison:
That's 2turns of the cap + 1 turn of the second city (horse-first) for 8 turns of gold - 64 commerce (gold-first).
While 1 turn of the second city = 2(TR) + 1 + 2 (fish) - 2 (maintenance) = 3 commerce.
So that's 2 turns of the cap for 63 commerce (= 1 fishing/mysterism)
I'm still for gold-first.
Edit: to add to what you said at #104: the horse tile will become redundant when rice/2nd gold is improved. While compared to the silk tile (2F1H1C), the horse gives 2 more production (1F4H1C), would be good for spamming settler, less important for building worker, esp. in comparison with the gold tile.
Edit 2: Why don't we vote for it to accelerate the process? My vote for gold first.
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 02:18 PM Well dingding beat me to it... it's much stronger in terms of commerce to get the gold first.
However you do gain 3H with 1 turn earlier settler...
63:commerce: vs 3:hammers: is an easy choice for me, gold first.
Next big question is tech path:
Fishing>Writing
Fishing>Pottery>Writing
or Fishing>Sailing
I don't really see other choices.
Heck we might even play a quickie 6 turns to finish Fishing to get that part out of testing. Who knows what we can learn in those 6 turns?
Duckweed Sep 19, 2010, 03:05 PM Good discussions!:goodjob:
Vote:
1. Gold 1st.
2. Tech: Fishing->Sailing->Writing
I'm fine for either dingding continuing on the game if he can commit in the next few days or hydraculas takes it, then dingding needs to submit the save to the official site and hydraculas need to download the save there.
@kossin
I just ran a longer test to GLH and successfully to grab both Oracle and GLH, will post the result later.
In the test game, Gandhi grabbed a religion, which posed more risk than actual game for Oracle.
Techwise, I skipped BW, went for
Fishing->Sailing->Writing->Mys->Med->PH->Masonry->CoL->Math
Duckweed Sep 19, 2010, 03:12 PM GLH may still be worth a try even it may fails: it's still as good as hammering money. AIs' productions are indeed poor, we still have a decent chance to beat them on GLH by slow building. But now I need to consider it as unjustified because the Bottleneck of expansion is not maintenance fees (exclu. traderoads) but workers. GLH is worth 1 settler+3 workers, with which we can expand much more smoothly. Earlier/better expansion has also a snowball effect as Duckweed indicates.
That's a good point. However, the problem, if we want CS, then we can not expand before that. I'm happy that Erkon leave the chance of normal diplomacy (i.e. OB and tech trade), which makes GLH more powerful. I now consider Astro as a more critical tech than Edu.
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 03:16 PM Good discussions!:goodjob:
Vote:
1. Gold 1st.
2. Tech: Fishing->Sailing->Writing
I'm fine for either dingding continuing on the game if he can commit in the next few days or hydraculas take it, then dingding needs to submit the save to the official site and hydraculas need to download the save there.
@kossin
I just ran a longer test to GLH and successfully to grab both Oracle and GLH, will post the result later.
In the test game, Gandhi grabbed a religion, which posed more risk than actual game for Oracle.
Techwise, I skipped BW, went for
Fishing->Sailing->Mys->Med->PH->Masonry->CoL->Math
Yea, that's what I did as well in my test which got Oracle+CoL+CS at t85.
One further point in favor of CS from Oracle: in the test game all AIs know each other therefore tech faster (because in the original 4000BC save I had put them at war with each other).
Anyway, I would like for the save to be uploaded at least 1 turn after city #2 is settled.
Heck... might as well gamble and adapt if we see the possibility of losing Oracle. Agree with your tech path.
dingding Sep 19, 2010, 03:22 PM @ kossin:
You're right, why not?
If you'd like, you can proceed now. I'd be able to do so as well but it's a bit too late.
Edit: If the next player can't proceed unless submitting to the official website, I will continue the turnset until one turn after the 2nd city is settled, as kossin said. That would give the least enough info to our competitors. The plan for the next 14 turns (until the gold is improved) would be:
t27 Worker 1 go to northern Cow
t28 Worker 1 road
t29 Worker 2 out, go 1N1W to road; Moscow on warrior
t30 Worker 1 removes fallout
t32 Worker 2 joins Worker 1
t33 Warrior 1 out, go North scouting
t34 2 Workers improve Cow
t35 Moscow 2nd pop on CoW
t36 2 Worker go to gold
t37 Warrior 2 out, go West scouting; Moscow on 3rd warrior
t39 Moscow pop = 3, 3rd pop on 2F1H1C
t40 Warrior 3 out; go scouting around (be back for garrison later); Moscow starts Settler, 3rd pop on 3H
t41 Gold improved, 3rd pop on gold. OVER
EP target should be discussed. I still like to put on average the EP on each AI and concentrate it on the first neighbor we meet. Gandhi has Alphabet, we know well his tech path which makes him less interesting to be the EP target though he may be the biggest Oracle competitor.
Roosevelt is the biggest competitor on GLH and may be our neighbor. Washington had a good growth, maybe that being said it's coastal as well? Might be more interesting to put EP on him
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 03:42 PM @ kossin:
You're right, why not?
If you'd like, you can proceed now. I'd be able to do so as well but it's a bit too late.
Fine with me, I'll wait for one/two more person(s) to agree before doing so.
Just so it's clear, this is the question:
Heck we might even play a quickie 6 turns to finish Fishing to get that part out of testing. Who knows what we can learn in those 6 turns?
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 03:47 PM That's not true. That's not a simple question 63 beakers vs 3 hammers. You neglect the movement of workers and snowball effect a lot.
It seems impossible to settle at t47, unless you put 2 workers to clear the fallout.
I run a test for both side with the same production process settler>worker>worker>library(pop to 5)>continues workers(to see the snowball effect), the result amazed me a lot and proofed the snowball effect again.
Here are the results on turn68
gold first
http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae19/hydraculas/Civ4ScreenShot0195.jpg
horse first
http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae19/hydraculas/Civ4ScreenShot0194.jpg
about the financial:
gold first: gold(322(-3)+36), mathematics(256/390)
horse first: gold(253(-3)+37),mathematics(322/390)
horse first capital pops to 5 on t60;gold first capital pops to 5 on t63. When they pops to 5, library finished, and change to 100%of tech contribution.
On t68, gold first only lead about 25 beakers.
Then let's see the production:
gold first: city1:worker(25/60)city2:library(78/90) pop growth(3/24)
horse first: city1:worker(58/60)city2:library(76/90) pop 3
So it's a problem 25 beakers against 31hammers and 21 food !
Considering the snowball effect of early workers, it can just be more.
Moreover, do not neglect the possibility of capturing workers by chariots!
@ hydraculas:
Gold first:
Gold at t41.
2nd city at t47.
3rd worker at t51.
Horse first:
Gold at t49
2nd city at t46
3rd worker at t49
Comparison:
That's 2turns of the cap + 1 turn of the second city (horse-first) for 8 turns of gold - 64 commerce (gold-first).
While 1 turn of the second city = 2(TR) + 1 + 2 (fish) - 2 (maintenance) = 3 commerce.
So that's 2 turns of the cap for 63 commerce (= 1 fishing/mysterism)
I'm still for gold-first.
Edit: to add to what you said at #104: the horse tile will become redundant when rice/2nd gold is improved. While compared to the silk tile (2F1H1C), the horse gives 2 more production (1F4H1C), would be good for spamming settler, less important for building worker, esp. in comparison with the gold tile.
Edit 2: Why don't we vote for it to accelerate the process? My vote for gold first.
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 04:02 PM Originally Posted by dingding View Post
Horse first:
Gold at t49
Actually it's gold at t47, since I had another try and changed the road building.
So it's just 6 turns of enjoying the gold ahead in the capital, with the cost of X turns of working on bad tile(forest) and a snowball effect of slower workers.
Since you move both of the workers to clean the fallout of city2 and with a slower worker3, the rice will just come later.
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 04:07 PM What was your tech path?
Fishing>Writing?
It becomes kinda awkward with Fishing>Sailing when the capital needs to grow as you work on a useless Barracks...
I'm not sure I understand the gold differentials in your game... there's 69 extra gold by improving gold first, that's 23 turns of research at -3 ... considering 36 bpt that's 828 more beakers... am I doing something wrong?
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 04:19 PM No I don't work on Barrack.
I suppose there are mainly two reasons of the gold differentials in my game.
a) the capital of horse first pop to 5 3 turns earlier, as well as the complete of library. With a library and 5 pop, the capital can take 2 gold mine and that's very strong.
b) Horse first can use the second gold tile earlier. The gold first just do not have the population to do this, otherwise city2 will not have a chance to grow up or city1 will grow very slowly.
What was your tech path?
Fishing>Writing?
It becomes kinda awkward with Fishing>Sailing when the capital needs to grow as you work on a useless Barracks...
I'm not sure I understand the gold differentials in your game... there's 69 extra gold by improving gold first, that's 23 turns of research at -3 ... considering 36 bpt that's 828 more beakers... am I doing something wrong?
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 04:25 PM What's more, now I prefer to gain our first GS in City2. The pop5 of the capital is too strong(2cows 2gold mines 1horse) and I don't wanna abandon any of it.
dingding Sep 19, 2010, 04:38 PM @ hydraculas:
Would like to reply to you in detail but time doesn't permit.
Yes I used two workers to remove the fallout for the 2nd city.
Another thing to say: if gold first, the horse doesn't necessarily need to be improved because the cap works well on rice and 2 gold as well.
Don't understand why in your tests there was 1 pop of difference in the 2nd city: IMO if gold first, 2nd city will produce a WB earlier than horse-first so will gain more food. I suppose it's because your micro is different from mine about workers removing fallout in the 2nd city?
BornInCantaloup Sep 19, 2010, 04:56 PM @ Hydraculas & all :
- I've had trouble managing the growth from size 3 to size 4 in the capital. At that time, city 2 is only size 1 and working the fish. Hence it cannot work the gold.
If the capital grows on the gold, it will take 5 turns, against 4 working the horse, against 3 working the rice.
Despite of (or thanks to) my poor micro, it seems to me that the growth is much easier to manage with Hydraculas approach.
The reason is simple : the 4th worker is done several turns before the workboat in city 2, which gives the capital some time to grow while city 2 still works the gold tile.
- In that train of thought (worker moves) : do you improve the rice before the 2nd gold ? I think I would but didn't test properly yet.
- When do you complete the 3rd warrior ? I tend to do it after the 3rd worker. That's about when we would start losing hammers.
- Alternative road network (2 golds instead of forest ; takes some more turns right now but saves some on the way back, a roaded gold being more useful than a roaded forest...) :
http://img409.imageshack.us/img409/9281/civ4screenshot0107.jpg (http://img409.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0107.jpg/)
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/6719/civ4screenshot0109.jpg (http://img26.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0109.jpg/)
EDIT :
Could also look that way for horse 1st :
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/9062/civ4screenshot0110.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0110.jpg/)
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 05:18 PM Because I try to keep at least a pop in the gold tile. Which means, city2 only start to growth when the capital pops to 5(take the gold of city2), so that's why city2 of horse first grow 3 turns early.
@ hydraculas:
Don't understand why in your tests there was 1 pop of difference in the 2nd city: IMO if gold first, 2nd city will produce a WB earlier than horse-first so will gain more food. I suppose it's because your micro is different from mine about workers removing fallout in the 2nd city?
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 05:31 PM @BornInCantaloup
I suppose build road in the forest is the best, since it save turns both for settler and the worker to clean the fallout.
When grow from 3 to 4, first rice then gold, yes that's right. You will found that when worker 4 finished, the rice happened to be completed, and we can use rice,cow,cow to grow to 4.
Then I take (cow,cow,rice,gold)to grow to 5, it happened to be (4+6*4=28) 4 turns,when it's turn 60.
City2 take the gold tile until capital is pop 5.
As we can see, in this approach we can use 2 gold mines early.
Duckweed Sep 19, 2010, 05:48 PM @BIC
Good point on improving Rice before 2nd gold, I'll try some tests to find out.
@BIC & hydraculas
1st, I prefer to let 3rd citizen work on gold mine forever since the limited factor of Oracle is commerce, everything should be behind. The earlier Oracle not only leads to higher safety, but also let us gain the Bureo bonus earlier.
Then, the way I see the difference between improving Horse or Gold 1st is the gain from 3rd citizen, If horse 1st, 3rd citizen can work on the 1F4H1C tile instead of 3H tile for 2 turns, that's 4H2C when producing settler that time. Gold 1st enable 3rd citizen to work on gold mine 2 turns earlier, the difference is 12C vs 4H2C, so the total difference of Gold:Horse is 12C vs 8H4C. Pretty close, right? However, then gold 1st saves 4 worker turns which leads to ..... you know.
@dingding
Plan looks good. I will take BIC's suggestion of roading the gold mine instead of forest.(yeah, that's my suggestion before since I thought we need to send both workers back to capital that time. Edit: (Nah, that will delay 2nd city 1 turn)
Let capital start settler once it hits size 3 and 3rd worker before completing 3rd warrior. The benefit is that capital can finish the 3rd warrior by working on the silk tile while 2nd city is taking the gold tile.
On EP: I think Gandhi is the best choice since he is the potential best techer. If he does not expand fast enough, we can even consider to gift him a city in our continent so that we can put our EP on good usage.
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 06:23 PM Notice that we need to settler>worker>worker when we are pop3. In horse first case, it starts from t39(pop3) to t54(4th worker finished), so we should calculate in this way:
commerce lost: 6 turns(from t41 to t47) 7*6=42 beakers - 3beakers(city2 1 turn earlier) = 39 beakers
hammers gain: 15 turns(from t39 to t54) 2*15=30 hammers
In the gold 1st way, because we take 2 worker to clean the fallout, the rice and horse will delay for a long time.
So from a static view, it's already 30 hammers against 39 beakers. Considering the snowball effect of the early worker, it just can be more.
@BIC
Good point on improving Rice before 2nd gold, I'll try some tests to find out.
@BIC & hydraculas
1st, I prefer to let 3rd citizen work on gold mine forever since the limited factor of Oracle is commerce, everything should be behind. The earlier Oracle not only leads to higher safety, but also let us gain the Bureo bonus earlier.
Then, the way I see the difference between improving Horse or Gold 1st is the gain from 3rd citizen, If horse 1st, 3rd citizen can work on the 1F4H1C tile instead of 3H tile for 2 turns, that's 4H2C when producing settler that time. Gold 1st enable 3rd citizen to work on gold mine 2 turns earlier, the difference is 12C vs 4H2C, so the total difference of Gold:Horse is 12C vs 8H4C. Pretty close, right? However, then gold 1st saves 4 worker turns which leads to ..... you know.
@dingding
Plan looks good. I will take BIC's suggestion of roading the gold mine instead of forest.(yeah, that's my suggestion before since I thought we need to send both workers back to capital that time. Edit: (Nah, that will delay 2nd city 1 turn)
On EP: I think Gandhi is the best choice since he is the potential best techer. If he does not expand fast enough, we can even consider to gift him a city in our continent so that we can put our EP on good usage.
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 06:28 PM 1st, I prefer to let 3rd citizen work on gold mine forever since the limited factor of Oracle is commerce, everything should be behind. The earlier Oracle not only leads to higher safety, but also let us gain the Bureo bonus earlier.
Then, the way I see the difference between improving Horse or Gold 1st is the gain from 3rd citizen, If horse 1st, 3rd citizen can work on the 1F4H1C tile instead of 3H tile for 2 turns, that's 4H2C when producing settler that time. Gold 1st enable 3rd citizen to work on gold mine 2 turns earlier, the difference is 12C vs 4H2C, so the total difference of Gold:Horse is 12C vs 8H4C. Pretty close, right? However, then gold 1st saves 4 worker turns which leads to ..... you know.
Working the gold all the time is the approach I wanted as well for the commerce (the only exception I can think of is to gain 1 turn of growth to work 2 golds 1 turn earlier) to maximize commerce.
The earliest Oracle comes from maximizing the # of turns both gold tiles are worked. We can focus on hammers/food afterwards.
Regarding GS: we don't have much choice but to do it in Moscow unless we kiss goodbye to GLH.
@hydraculas:
I think it's clear that we're sacrificing hammers/food by not improving the horse in favor of the gold...
The decision is whether or not we want to sacrifice them to get Oracle earlier to have a better shot at CS slingshot.
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 06:33 PM @Duckweed
If you wanna make workers build the 2nd gold mine before the rice and take use of it while the capital producing 3rd and 4th worker, the rice will be too late and I can't see the date when the capital grow to 5.
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 06:42 PM So tell me the details. When t47 your city2 settled and take your gold mine, what tile will your pop3 work on? You can only work on the forest and 2 workers are turning back on the road from city2 to city1.
Then what will you choose? If you choose gold mine, when your 4th worker finished, your rice is not finished and you need +4/26 -> 7turns to get pop4, that's too long.
Let's kiss goodbye to GLH. GS at city2 will maximize our tech income, while 2 gold mines in city1.
Working the gold all the time is the approach I wanted as well for the commerce (the only exception I can think of is to gain 1 turn of growth to work 2 golds 1 turn earlier) to maximize commerce.
The earliest Oracle comes from maximizing the # of turns both gold tiles are worked. We can focus on hammers/food afterwards.
Regarding GS: we don't have much choice but to do it in Moscow unless we kiss goodbye to GLH.
@hydraculas:
I think it's clear that we're sacrificing hammers/food by not improving the horse in favor of the gold...
The decision is whether or not we want to sacrifice them to get Oracle earlier to have a better shot at CS slingshot.
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 06:52 PM Moreover, Oracling CS is quite a long term. A good exploitation of coast or noble metal city3 may not delay the process, even accelerate the process.
BornInCantaloup Sep 19, 2010, 07:02 PM Testrun to T58 :
Improved the Horses.
Roaded the gold 1N.
Settled 2nd city on T47 (gold improved).
2 workers head back to the capital : road 1E + rice.
Build 3rd worker, then completes 3rd warrior.
Start library, not 4th worker.
Capital grows to size 4 on T54.
Library is done on T55, the rice is improved.
Fish is improved on T56 and the capital works the Gold.
Capital grows to size 5 on T58, second gold improved. 29 hammers were invested into additionnal warriors.
http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/1285/civ4screenshot0114a.jpg (http://img710.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0114a.jpg/)
Downside : city 2 will have a few turns of unhealthiness (if we road both gold tiles, then the capital grows to 5 on T59 with the 2nd gold improved, but we can manage unhealthiness in the 2nd city).
Techpath :
With 3 workers only, Writing comes before Sailing. But... there's little reason to tech Sailing first even with 4 workers.
Mysticism, etc. weren't researched.
@ Duckweed :
Maybe we shouldn't focus too much on the settling date of the 2nd city... What may be more important is to time the capital's growth with the improvement of the fish.
Roading the forest is indeed faster to settle the 2nd city, but roading the gold 1N allows to improve it faster after the rice is done.
Having the gold roaded isn't important if we stun our growth with the 4th worker, but if we go with 3 (it seems we can), then it may be...
The save is attached if you want to get this to T68... (some gold was saved between the completion of Sailing and growth to size 5)
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 07:18 PM @ BIC
3 workers will surely bring a faster pop5. But I think 4 workers is a more flexible way. With 4 workers, we can make city2 a faster development and we have more choices, such as cleaning the fallout for city3 or even whipping(when something happened).
When you grow from 3 to 4, the rice is no finished. So It's just 2 turns slower for 4-workers plan grow to pop5.
BornInCantaloup Sep 19, 2010, 07:31 PM True, just trying to get on par in commerce with gold first :)
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 07:37 PM And I plan to produce library after wb in city2. Around t72 city2 will grow into pop4 and we can ran two scientists. That will step up our tech income over +45 and we will get a GS around t88.
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 08:25 PM Which brings us back to a post #7 of the thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9599763&postcount=7).
And now we need votes.
Do you want to attempt the GLH?
If yes, it forces our hand Fishing>Sailing, skip horse.
If no, we can decide another path. Fishing>Pottery>Writing or whatever, improve horse.
So, Gentlemen, please post your votes in the next 24 hours about GLH YES or GLH NO. I'd like to get everyone's opinion on this. We are 6 without Bugg so if we reach a tie we'll give it a bit more time before leaving the decision to the set player.
If you have time, support your answer with numbers/test save.
hydraculas Sep 19, 2010, 09:12 PM NO.
Repaid rate is too low. Cost 156 beakers and 200 hammers and get an uncertain return. I doubt there are enough cities for foreign trade routes after currency since AI may have a slower expanding.(due to wars and fallout) I don't know when AIs will sign open borders. I think 300+ gold will be even better than building GLH.
Which brings us back to a post #7 of the thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9599763&postcount=7).
And now we need votes.
Do you want to attempt the GLH?
If yes, it forces our hand Fishing>Sailing, skip horse.
If no, we can decide another path. Fishing>Pottery>Writing or whatever, improve horse.
So, Gentlemen, please post your votes in the next 24 hours about GLH YES or GLH NO. I'd like to get everyone's opinion on this. We are 6 without Bugg so if we reach a tie we'll give it a bit more time before leaving the decision to the set player.
If you have time, support your answer with numbers/test save.
Duckweed Sep 19, 2010, 09:48 PM @BIC
I tried your 3 workers approach to T58 but skip the horse improvement and road the forest.
The difference is 45 beaker ahead but capital is 2 turns short to size5 and worker improvement is 6 turns short and some hammers short (which I think is not important as they are put on warriors). Here's the save on T58.
However the problem I found was that "when I follow your plan, 2nd city could not be settled on T47 due to the short of worker turns to clear the fallout, but T48. Did I screw the micro somewhere?" Could kossin give it a quick test as I think 3 worker plan is appealing.
@Duckweed
If you wanna make workers build the 2nd gold mine before the rice and take use of it while the capital producing 3rd and 4th worker, the rice will be too late and I can't see the date when the capital grow to 5.
Rice before 2nd gold is good.
Moreover, Oracling CS is quite a long term. A good exploitation of coast or noble metal city3 may not delay the process, even accelerate the process.
Any 3rd city will slow down the Oracle date.
Vote on GLH -- yes. 10~20 coastal cities in this continent without doubt plus being able to OB with inter-continental AIs.
kossin Sep 19, 2010, 10:58 PM Sorry can't tonight currently in bed :)
Away from home tomorrow so I can't until evening. BIC's plan does sound appealing however, need to check first before saying more.
nishant1911 Sep 19, 2010, 11:54 PM my vote
glh- no (ok maybe yes:lol:)
edit: i am not sure so please disregard this. it feels awkward how we are deciding without seeing actual map layout.
gold before horse- yes
also i propose we intentionally gift gandhi techs all the way to modern era .
why?
we are not going to research all the techs ourselves so if we are going to trade we might as well ensure we get those trades available faster. there was an HOF deity space race submission (don't remember which) which utilized this.
i believe this significantly speed up the pace to space.
but i need your thoughts on this
dingding Sep 20, 2010, 02:47 AM With or without you – GLH :
Comparing two options: Oracle=>CS with GLH and without GLH:
1)
If skip GLH, we saves two techs (Sailing and Masonry, 280b) which accelerates CS by 8-10 turns (with bpt = 26-32). I take 6 turns as the pessimist consideration.
First Gain = 23 * 6 turns = 140b accordingly.
2)
GLH is worth 1 settler + 3 workers. We can consider that skipping GLH can accelerate our expansion – in other word, every city afterwards – by 10-15 turns. (Note that I mean the new cities can be FUNCTIONAL in advance of 10-15 turns – as far as we can see, cities without fresh water need cleaning at least 4 fallout before being free from unearthliness.)
If no offshore city settled, I don’t envisage that each city can gain more than 2 cpt from GLH for 1) AI focuses on military aspect instead of expansion; 2) AI is incapable handling micro of removing the fallout (we don’t even know if they can remove it); 3) AI are far enough to be contacted; 4) Need good effort to please them and OB.
Let’s take 2.5 cpt of gain per coastal city as a result of GLH, considering the possibility to build an offshore city.
3)
Without GLH, the 2nd city can help to produce the GS. Either it helps the growth of Moscow, or contributes to the expansion, or accelerates the GS. Hard to evaluate it, let’s skip it since it’s not major.
Main question becomes: can the acceleration of every city by 10-15 turns cover the loss from losing GLH (2.5 cpt) + 10-15 turns of maintenance fees, . My answer is YES. We can see the game designer gave good sites for settlement, new city = ressource(s) + 2-3 cpt + 1 pop, which covers partly the maintenance fees. Suppose that the new city works on a cottage, after 10 turns it can produces 2cpt, and nearly hits size 2. True that expansion before Oracle might affects the CS date, but skipping GLH permit the second city to contribute to the research (hiring scientists) so I don't think it can delay for much (moreover, I took the pessimist estimation of 6 turns already).Hence my vote for NO GLH.
You also get my vote for GOLD FIRST. However I may change my mind when I run more tests tonight.
BornInCantaloup Sep 20, 2010, 03:57 AM Do you want to attempt the GLH?
If yes, it forces our hand Fishing>Sailing, skip horse.
If no, we can decide another path. Fishing>Pottery>Writing or whatever, improve horse.
I'll say yes for the GLH. The best case scenario involves getting the GLH. It is more risky regarding the Oracle, though. So I won't complain if we don't try it/put the idea on standby.
However, we're not forced to go Fishing>Sailing skipping the horse. My last testrun has the GLH in mind.
Improving the horse and going Fishing>Writing>Sailing>Myst>Masonry would be alright.
Regarding City 2 and GLH, beakers really are not a problem. Only hammers are.
If you take a look at Hydraculas' testruns to t68, you can see we're not far from having too many workers (5 for 2 cities, with most improvements done). If we tighten up the workforce a bit, we could time a 2nd settler after we've reached 4 workers (maybe hiring scientists in the capital to maximize commerce output and, ideally, get the settler around the time we have Priesthood). If we don't go for the GLH, we will have something closer to 5 cities than 3 by the time we Oracle something.
BornInCantaloup Sep 20, 2010, 04:33 AM @BIC
I tried your 3 workers approach to T58 but skip the horse improvement and road the forest.
The difference is 45 beaker ahead but capital is 2 turns short to size5 and worker improvement is 6 turns short and some hammers short (which I think is not important as they are put on warriors). Here's the save on T58.
However the problem I found was that "when I follow your plan, 2nd city could not be settled on T47 due to the short of worker turns to clear the fallout, but T48. Did I screw the micro somewhere?" Could kossin give it a quick test as I think 3 worker plan is appealing.
I don't recall everything regarding the gold-first approach, but :
Maybe you finished improving the gold tile with both workers ? I think you have to send one worker ahead to clear the fallout.
If you don't, then you need to send both workers and they end up stuck by city 2, behind the fallout-river-hills.
Otherwise, yes, gold first can probably manage a 3 worker start and get a quicker growth for a faster use of the 2nd goldmine. And also making it easier to share the 1st goldmine between city 2 and capital. Sharing the 1st gold and working the 2nd asap is just as important, commerce-wise, as settling the 2nd city early. I'm not sure what my favourite option is, but I feel growth is a big problem with the gold first + 4 workers approach.
Leaving the horse unimproved may mean the rice will be improved earlier... hmmm... I don't have time to test right now but I will do so in some hours. If we tighten up the workforce, though, then getting the workers out sooner (horse improved) is more and more crucial.
For easier reference to testruns, could we state on what turns what improvements are done ? (optional : state on what turns cities grow)
Duckweed Sep 20, 2010, 06:39 AM Main question becomes: can the acceleration of every city by 10-15 turns cover the loss from losing GLH (2.5 cpt) + 10-15 turns of maintenance fees, . My answer is YES. We can see the game designer gave good sites for settlement, new city = ressource(s) + 2-3 cpt + 1 pop, which covers partly the maintenance fees. Suppose that the new city works on a cottage, after 10 turns it can produces 2cpt, and nearly hits size 2. True that expansion before Oracle might affects the CS date, but skipping GLH permit the second city to contribute to the research (hiring scientists) so I don't think it can delay for much (moreover, I took the pessimist estimation of 6 turns already).Hence my vote for NO GLH.
My answer to this question is also yes, however the question itself does not stands. With GLH, coastal cities does not require many workers, it can work on the water tiles. So we can focus on pumping settlers, which disqualifies your more earlier every city argument. With GLH, to certain point, more cities on the opposite site.
Don't have time now, can get to this later.
kossin Sep 20, 2010, 06:49 AM GLH
Yay - Duckweed, BIC
Nay - hydraculas, dingding
uncertain - nishant1911
I'm always loving the GLH however here I am not certain as well. We can expect it to be useful for ~100 turns or so but with a lot of 1:commerce: traderoutes only I'd think. With early Corporations, its usefulness is further decreased.
I am not convinced we can actually expand much faster without building it... I mean, I know we're putting 200+60 hammers for that alone and using scientists in city 2 vs city 1 but all we can do is build workers! Building extra settlers will add much maintenance so at best they'll be settled 1~2 turns before we Oracle CS.
In my tests, GLH was usually done 4~6 turns after Oracle. Another thing not taken account of is scientists in city 2... those eat hammers that would normally go on GLH... 17 turns for a GS is 17*6 hammers, 102 and then a few more hammers because of the slowed growth (+1 food per Ivory).... 102H+34F. Let's estimate the actual loss hammers as 120H from running scientists instead of building GLH.
Meaning we're only 80H or so behind, the city has the ability to get 12~15H/turn, about 20 with food surplus... even when being pessimist, this is only 5 turns delay.
(Keep in mind the capital is busy slow building Oracle at this point.... I'd still run scientists here to maximize research instead of crappy rice and 1F4H1C horse most likely as well - therefore production in capital isn't so much different)
With GLH, we know each city becomes profitable faster, even if we get no intercontinental trade route... so what becomes the actual difference of GLH vs no GLH?
5 turns earlier cities that take longer to be profitable.
It's a little ambitious to say but I think research-wise there is no difference or an advantage to GLH because it's very doubtful that we can't get any intercontinental trade routes. The only clue we have is Low Sea Level. There is a huge risk however as 1AI still only has 6 land tiles on his capital -> coastal -> prioritize Lighthouse -> Masonry as usual -> GLH. With Roosevelt in the game, odds are pretty high he's the guy with that start -> lower odds for us. I mean, 650BCish is pretty late with Roosevelt in the game... add in the era bonuses and there are pretty good odds it goes by 900~1000BC.
I'll think about it a couple more hours and vote then.
kossin Sep 20, 2010, 08:27 AM I'm still leaning on getting GLH.
However, BIC's post makes me reconsider tech path to Fishing>Writing.
What does this accomplish?
Simple: we get to see the land with warriors and have about 20 turns more of information to help our decision.
It might push back GLH a few turns but by the date we're already looking at to get it, it probably won't change much.
Moreover, we might find a better site to build GLH - that is somewhere with trees! Combined with Mathematics, 260 hammers is only 8 forests and a few turns... granted it doesn't look as if there are that many trees around but maybe we can look with Flying Camera a bit more.
And if we elect to skip GLH, well that's the tech path we would have take anyway. The second city can put some hammers on another workboat (clams) or a warrior for scouting or the library... all 3 are good options.
hydraculas Sep 20, 2010, 10:44 AM dingding, could you move forward 6 turns when fishing finished and then upload the official saves?
Beware that 2nd worker need to build roads on the forest first while the 1st worker build road on the 2nd cow. The 2nd pasture will finished the same turn when capital grow to 2.
dingding Sep 20, 2010, 11:23 AM Warriors, take your swords! (or your clubs whatsoever)
De Gaulle spotted! After his cap 3rd border expansion (he founded Buddhism)
I followed the growth of Paris. During the 5 turns I played, it grew from 3 to 4. Which means he's focusing on units/barrack. Let's reconsider Horse first!
On the other hand, Gandhi obtained Poly and founded Hinduism. Need to check every turn his tech path (EP on him as well).
http://i625.photobucket.com/albums/tt338/dingdingzhu/Civ4ScreenShot1617.jpg
I need to recheck all the points:
1) Improvement of the Horse
2) GLH or/and Early military activity (chariot harassment)
3) Expansion path
4) Diplomacy
Will put the analysis later tonight.
BornInCantaloup Sep 20, 2010, 11:39 AM Interesting, chariots are now very appealing. Getting a 2nd capital may just be what we need to accelerate our plans to Maths/CoL.
It should be easy enough to take him on with 2 cities that are production powerhouses.
There are floodplains south of De Gaulle...
I won't insist on having 2 cities out of 2 building wonders with such a close neighbour.
kossin Sep 20, 2010, 12:46 PM Be that as it may, capturing a city with 40% culture, possibly on a hill with only Chariots is costly as hell.
Still... what a difference 6 turns make!
hydraculas Sep 20, 2010, 01:38 PM Wow now that's totally different.
Just as I said before, we need more information for judgment. Some of our former discussion became meaningless now and we still can not make a decision on whether chariots rushing or not, depends on AI's defense.
At least capturing workers by chariots sounds good.
What's more now we need to discuss BW. The place for bronze are both important for French and us. And if we wanna a early rush, whipping will becomes valuable.
kossin Sep 20, 2010, 01:43 PM Oh, and just in case anyone forgot...
To win the game:
* All fallout must be cleared
* Stalin must be defeated (dead)
* All other AIs must survive and be at peace with the player when space victory is achieved.
* Teams will not be penalized for events outside the team's control, such as:
o one AI killing the other before the team has the opportunity to prevent it
o one AI declares war on team after the launch
o one AI launch a nuke after the launch ....etc.
o any fallout that may appear on unreachable terrain does NOT need to be cleaned up.
Sure, we can look at a rush, but we can't kill him off... only cripple him.
I think the best thing is to harass him with a Chariot or two and keep him off Copper/Iron. Free workers are nice.
dingding Sep 20, 2010, 02:33 PM Improvement of the Horse:
I tried two tests: horse-first and gold-first, both skipped GLH.
Gold-first: make use of the gold asap (t41), so two workers improves the gold after the Cow, then both go to clean up the fallout for the second city. Second city at t47. But in this approach the second gold mine becomes relatively late (if 1st at t41, the second needs to be at t55) because 1) lose worker turn by removing fallout with 2 workers. 2) start with 2 workers => settler => 3rd worker.
Horse-first: Improve horse then two golds. Start with 3-workers. The 1st gold is available later (t47) but the second comes earlier (t50). Second city is later as well (t50).
I tried until t80. In both of the approaches, that's when I obtained CS from Oracle. So in terms of commerce, they don't have much difference. But in terms of food/hammer efficiency, I think 3-worker start + Horse-first is better because 1) the horse tile production is good; 2) Horse-first can build Chariot earlier instead of putting hammers on warriors; 3) though the 2nd city is settled later, it suffers less from unhealthiness (fallout on the cow is removed on the same time) so its growth is pretty the same in both approach until t80.
My votes change to:
1) Horse-first (3-worker if it's a relative option)
2) No GLH. (Let alone the apparency of De Gaulle is a negative factor to GLH)
Sorry I don't have the time to test Gold-first/Horst-first with GLH, but I think the results will be similar.
BTW in my tests, if skip the GLH, the third city can really be settled about 10 turns earlier than with GLH (if we suppose CS can be finished at t88 as in kossin's game). First GS before t90.
Early military activity:
I noticed Paris grew from 3 to 4 at about t30. So it has 2.4 food per turn. Iirc all the AIs focused on growth in the game, so I tent to think De Gaulle doesn't have worker at the moment (otherwise the growth can't be that slow). It seems too early to think of capturing workers!
Chariot might not be urgent.
Expansion:
Why don't we talk about that after the 1st worker scouts sth?
Anyway Duckweed's estimation of settling 10-20 cities can be a little overestimated.
kossin Sep 20, 2010, 02:48 PM I agree, De Gaulle's presence is the end of early GLH planning. We might consider it if it's still available after we've done some expansion but not now.
Tech becomes Writing>Myst>Medi>Poly>Math/CoL
I'll give the various approaches a try when I get home ...
kossin Sep 20, 2010, 03:45 PM *****UPDATED TEST GAME*****
I gave Fishing to every AI as that was the only way to do it in 5 turns as per the real game. It isn't very surprising as most AIs appear to be coastal.
Subsequently however, the test game is maybe 8:science: ahead of the test game.
Duckweed Sep 20, 2010, 04:29 PM Clam down, guys.;) IIRC, the tiles on the left of the Ivory are coastal, which means Paris is very possibly surrounded by water tile, hence it's could be be U turn to Paris. It's very possible that Paris is more than 15 tiles away (the reason why we have not seen any French unit until now and that's almost for sure since Erkon won't let us get a capital too easy). The distance, fallout, capital culture, aggressive AI, possible hill site, are you guys want to send 10~15 chariots (1.5 GLH hammers) to capture Paris? I will definitely vote for yes if DG beats us for GLH and that's the best scenario, however I wonder he is willing to build GLH for us while he feels unsafe. So my concern for building GLH unchanged. If you are worry about the safety issue, my opinion is that it's not an issue before he set a city close by. Send the 1st warrior toward Paris and play to the end of Writing and we can see whether I make a right prediction on the map.
Anyway Duckweed's estimation of settling 10-20 cities can be a little overestimated.
My prediction of a map rarely goes down, any continent holding 2 civs is capable. There are 4 good sites already seen (Paris, Fish/Cow/Ivory, Rice, the city ruin site).
kossin Sep 20, 2010, 04:33 PM For certain I'm against rushing De Gaulle... cost is way too high. Unless he has a crazy capital (but I doubt that) or as Duckweed said grabs GLH.
How does GLH fare in terms of Writing>Sailing compared to Sailing>Writing? I'll check it later after dinner.
EDIT: I was able to nab a few workers from De Gaulle in the test game with warriors, with 1 Chariot it will be even easier.
hydraculas Sep 20, 2010, 04:38 PM Seems like the 3-worker start I mentioned before.
There's another choice:make chariot when capital grow from 3 to 4, then produce settler when 4. Slower settler and faster chariot, depends on what will we get from the first chariot.
Improvement of the Horse:
I tried two tests: horse-first and gold-first, both skipped GLH.
Gold-first: make use of the gold asap (t41), so two workers improves the gold after the Cow, then both go to clean up the fallout for the second city. Second city at t47. But in this approach the second gold mine becomes relatively late (if 1st at t41, the second needs to be at t55) because 1) lose worker turn by removing fallout with 2 workers. 2) start with 2 workers => settler => 3rd worker.
Horse-first: Improve horse then two golds. Start with 3-workers. The 1st gold is available later (t47) but the second comes earlier (t50). Second city is later as well (t50).
I tried until t80. In both of the approaches, that's when I obtained CS from Oracle. So in terms of commerce, they don't have much difference. But in terms of food/hammer efficiency, I think 3-worker start + Horse-first is better because 1) the horse tile production is good; 2) Horse-first can build Chariot earlier instead of putting hammers on warriors; 3) though the 2nd city is settled later, it suffers less from unhealthiness (fallout on the cow is removed on the same time) so its growth is pretty the same in both approach until t80.
My votes change to:
1) Horse-first (3-worker if it's a relative option)
2) No GLH. (Let alone the apparency of De Gaulle is a negative factor to GLH)
Sorry I don't have the time to test Gold-first/Horst-first with GLH, but I think the results will be similar.
BTW in my tests, if skip the GLH, the third city can really be settled about 10 turns earlier than with GLH (if we suppose CS can be finished at t88 as in kossin's game). First GS before t90.
Early military activity:
I noticed Paris grew from 3 to 4 at about t30. So it has 2.4 food per turn. Iirc all the AIs focused on growth in the game, so I tent to think De Gaulle doesn't have worker at the moment (otherwise the growth can't be that slow). It seems too early to think of capturing workers!
Chariot might not be urgent.
Expansion:
Why don't we talk about that after the 1st worker scouts sth?
Anyway Duckweed's estimation of settling 10-20 cities can be a little overestimated.
Duckweed Sep 20, 2010, 04:43 PM For certain I'm against rushing De Gaulle... cost is way too high. Unless he has a crazy capital (but I doubt that) or as Duckweed said grabs GLH.
How does GLH fare in terms of Writing>Sailing compared to Sailing>Writing? I'll check it later after dinner.
EDIT: I was able to nab a few workers from De Gaulle in the test game with warriors, with 1 Chariot it will be even easier.
Nah, I changed my mind for Writing->Sailing when I mentioned my preference of BIC's plan.
hydraculas Sep 20, 2010, 04:44 PM I'm against either, in a bigger possibility.
But we need to keep an eye on De Gaulle. I prefer a chariot asap to get more information of De Gaulle and just try to be more flexible.
For certain I'm against rushing De Gaulle... cost is way too high. Unless he has a crazy capital (but I doubt that) or as Duckweed said grabs GLH.
How does GLH fare in terms of Writing>Sailing compared to Sailing>Writing? I'll check it later after dinner.
EDIT: I was able to nab a few workers from De Gaulle in the test game with warriors, with 1 Chariot it will be even easier.
kossin Sep 20, 2010, 04:45 PM BTW:
AIs CHEAT!!! (nothing new there)
They can clear FALLOUT WITHOUT ECOLOGY.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9629679&postcount=29
Duckweed Sep 20, 2010, 04:46 PM Seems like the 3-worker start I mentioned before.
There's another choice:make chariot when capital grow from 3 to 4, then produce settler when 4. Slower settler and faster chariot, depends on what will we get from the first chariot.
That's 2 worker start essentially as we produce a settler after 2 workers. 3 worker start now means we start a lib instead of 4th worker.
hydraculas Sep 20, 2010, 04:46 PM And shall we change EP to De Gaulle immediately?
hydraculas Sep 20, 2010, 04:47 PM No, dingding now prefer a 3 worker start, then make settler.
That's 2 worker start essentially as we produce a settler after 2 workers. 3 worker start now means we start a lib instead of 4th worker.
hydraculas Sep 20, 2010, 04:55 PM I consider it as a good news, since we have a unique tech ecology at least.;)
BTW:
AIs CHEAT!!! (nothing new there)
They can clear FALLOUT WITHOUT ECOLOGY.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9629679&postcount=29
kossin Sep 20, 2010, 07:01 PM Alright, here's what we need for the next turn set: to the completion of Writing
Pre-Play-Plan
1- Capital build: simple, warriors to size 3, worker or settler
2- What to do with warriors #1 goes to DG capital, #2 scouting, #3 is left incomplete
3- worker micro : gold first or horse
The rest of the details will be left for the plan.
hydraculas Sep 20, 2010, 07:10 PM Another thing I am concerning, does all the AIs don't know about each others? Which means probably DG and us are the only two civs on an island.
kossin Sep 20, 2010, 07:13 PM Writing should bring us to t45 (gold first) or t47/t46(horse first) if some AIs get Writing early and we get a discount (doubtful).
1- I'd build a settler as the odds of catching a DG worker aren't that bad
2- as I said, #1 DG capital try pillaging/capture worker, #2 scouting, #3 incomplete
3- gold first... research is the bottleneck for safer Oracle. It doesn't change Chariot timing that much as the Capital should be busy with building other things than a Chariot this early (Library).
kossin Sep 20, 2010, 07:15 PM Another thing I am concerning, does all the AIs don't know about each others? Which means probably DG and us are the only two civs on an island.
They did not know each other from the start and still don't from the F4 screen.
hydraculas Sep 20, 2010, 07:29 PM Then we will face DG for a long time.
Shall we put EP on him or not? Seems DG will no longer a oracle competitor since he will be teased by us. However Gandhi is pretty dangerous since he went a religion route already.
They did not know each other from the start and still don't from the F4 screen.
kossin Sep 20, 2010, 07:43 PM If Gandhi's behavior follows test game, his next goal is Monotheism... and he usually attempts Oracle unless we put early hammers in it.
I see no reason to put EP on DG because as you say he'll be out of contention with us harassing him.
EDIT: I swamped a couple AIs in fallout and did not see them clear it ??? The only AI that did it was Stalin because I gave him Ecology...
kossin Sep 20, 2010, 08:28 PM Just for reference: the earliest I managed CS>Oracle is to complete them (shows as (1) turn left) on t77.
This skips Sailing and Masonry, focuses on working both gold tiles and running scientists in the capital. I also did very little binary research (minimum required to have sufficient gold).
Duckweed Sep 20, 2010, 08:36 PM Ran some tests for GLH and no GLH.
noGLH: Oracle on T78
http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu224/Duckweed_/NOGLH.jpg
GLH: Oracle on T82
http://i650.photobucket.com/albums/uu224/Duckweed_/GLH-1.jpg
Saves attached. 4 turns delay if go for GLH attempt. Sadly that my new computer with window 7 does not support my original printscreen software. Any suggestions? Is there a build-in function in BUFFY?
Pretty much followed BIC's plan to T58 but 3 turns short of worker turns since dingding roaded the forest tile in the last run. Then hire 2 scientists immediately, GS was available on T75. I favor this plan since it let capital grow to size 5 in the fast way and we can produce 1st GS earliest.
Alright, here's what we need for the next turn set: to the completion of Writing
Pre-Play-Plan
1- Capital build: simple, warriors to size 3, worker or settler
2- What to do with warriors #1 goes to DG capital, #2 scouting, #3 is left incomplete
3- worker micro : gold first or horse
The rest of the details will be left for the plan.
1. settler->worker->finish 3rd warrior
2. goes to DG capital
3. horse, 2 workers remove gold mine fallout together by 1 turn and then send 1 worker to remove the fallout for city 2, city 2 is settled in turn 47.
Just for reference: the earliest I managed CS>Oracle is to complete them (shows as (1) turn left) on t77.
This skips Sailing and Masonry, focuses on working both gold tiles and running scientists in the capital. I also did very little binary research (minimum required to have sufficient gold).
I guess that you go for gold 1st as that's 45 beakers ahead in my last run.
kossin Sep 20, 2010, 08:42 PM Gadwin doesn't work on W7? ugh! (I really love that application, works like a charm)
Beside the obvious PrintScreen that goes into your My Games>BTS>Screenshots folder... dunno
Have you tried...
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/Make-older-programs-run-in-this-version-of-Windows
http://windows.microsoft.com/en-US/windows7/install-and-use-windows-xp-mode-in-windows-7
Duckweed Sep 20, 2010, 08:47 PM Gadwin doesn't work on W7? ugh! (I really love that application, works like a charm)
Beside the obvious PrintScreen that goes into your My Games>BTS>Screenshots folder... dunno
I tried a few new softwares too, none of them worked even I ran the game in window mode. Yeah, right, they're there.:lol: Thanks.
kossin Sep 20, 2010, 08:50 PM Did you have the Professional version or regular?
According to their site (http://www.gadwin.com/download/), it should be compatible with W7...
Duckweed Sep 20, 2010, 09:09 PM Did you have the Professional version or regular?
According to their site (http://www.gadwin.com/download/), it should be compatible with W7...
It just does not work for the this game, I tried all your suggestions, none of them works. Thanks.
hydraculas Sep 20, 2010, 11:11 PM I tried for Oracling CS and I think I found a better solution.
Oracling CS on turn80, with 3 Cities, 5 workers , compared to Duckweed's turn78 no GLH solution, one more tech Pottery , 19 more gold ( if you adjust the % at the last turn), a higher tech income on average(+55) and two villiages!
The cost of it is only 2 turns slower, and if I adjust my micro, maybe only 1turns slower.
Why is that? Maybe it's because we greatly underestimate the benefit brought by city3. City3 contribute a reasonable finance as well as develop cottage to village for the capital. We may also underestimate the snowball effect of earlier workers, as I adopted a settler>worker>worker start and gain 4th worker very early.
The 2 scientists in City2 are also greatly helpful.
http://i953.photobucket.com/albums/ae19/hydraculas/Civ4ScreenShot0196.jpg
Saves uploaded.
Bugg123 Sep 21, 2010, 02:32 AM Just checking in. I've subscribed to thread from the start (1 update pr day) so I can at least follow what you're discussing. Still swamped however :(
Discussion really good so far, though :)
No reason for me to vote on stuff at this stage since I'm unable to really test anything.
BornInCantaloup Sep 21, 2010, 04:00 AM Alright, here's what we need for the next turn set: to the completion of Writing
Pre-Play-Plan
1- Capital build: simple, warriors to size 3, worker or settler
2- What to do with warriors #1 goes to DG capital, #2 scouting, #3 is left incomplete
3- worker micro : gold first or horse
The rest of the details will be left for the plan.
1) Settler, Worker, finish 3rd warrior.
2) Of course go for DG with the first. The 2nd could go NW of city 2.
3) Horse first. It gets the second gold and library online sooner. Also gains some worker turns, etc.
EDIT :
3) Hmmm... Not sure.
I must say maybe we did a mistake playing the last set.
If improving the Horse first, we're now 2 worker turns short : City 2 settled on T46 vs gold improved on T48 :(
Thanks for updating the testgame, Kossin :)
BornInCantaloup Sep 21, 2010, 04:30 AM @ Hydraculas :
Looks interesting. Growing cottages in anticipation of Bureaucracy is a nice thing to do.
How did you manage the growth in the capital (size 3 to 4, especially) ?
kossin Sep 21, 2010, 06:01 AM Ok, we have a clear majority on the following:
-Writing
-Warriors to 3, then settler>worker
-First warrior to DG
-improve horse first (dingding, hydraculas, BIC, Duckweed - I also change my vote as it probably doesn't change us getting Oracle or not... only thing that does is if Gandhi attempts it)
@hydraculas
You're up next in the Roster, can you make a plan for the next 15~16 turns (end of Writing)?
Hopefully we can agree within 24 hours so you can play tomorrow or whenever works best.
kossin Sep 21, 2010, 08:29 AM Gosh the server is slow... took me 20 minutes to get here.
Stupid Civ 5!
BornInCantaloup Sep 21, 2010, 08:33 AM Hmmm... Server too busy made me lose my last post.
Anyways, I've tested a bit with 3 workers before the Library and have no preference between gold or horse first.
I find growth/sharing the gold is a problem but did not find any satisfying micro.
One thing to consider :
Researching Pottery first may be nice. It delays a bit the Library but we can grow the capital to size 6 really fast.
The basic reason is another, though : our capital has a production surplus and food deficit, compared to our needs. Building a Granary before the Library takes advantage of that.
Curious to see what micro you propose to grow the capital to size 5 :)
kossin Sep 21, 2010, 09:07 AM Maybe... but Pottery goes against GLH which we have not ruled out (or for) yet.
What a mess this start is :D
hydraculas Sep 21, 2010, 10:56 AM Plan for the next set
t32:worker1,2 go to cow, clean the fallout and make pasture
t33:warrior1 finished, go to the hill besides DG (north west to the rice)
capital continue warriors to 3
t35 capital grow to 2 and the pasture finished
t36:worker1,worker2 to horse, make pasture;when finished, worker1 to gold mine and worker2 to clean the fallout of city2
t39 capital grow to 3 and start to produce settler
t41 pottery finished > writing
t45 settler finished > worker3
t46 city2 settled, save cash for 1 turn;worker2 go to the rice of capital
t48 gold mine finished > worker1 go to another gold mine to build road
t49 worker3 borned > worker4; worker3 go to the east tile of capital
t50 worker1,2,3 build road at the same turn(road from rice to the gold mine)
t51 writing finished > mysticism (start saving cash and 100% at turn57 according my simulation)
when worker4 produced, the rice is about to finished and then capital build library to pop5
kossin Sep 21, 2010, 12:46 PM How does everyone feel about Pottery here?
In terms of GLH it will push back Oracle-CS another 2 turns...
That makes me nervous as it makes everything late... True we're playing humans but AIs also need to be considered and we can't get away with doing everything...
So!
GLH or no GLH = Writing or Pottery
hydraculas Sep 21, 2010, 01:02 PM I will go for Pottery without GLH.
As u can see, in my simulation I have Pottery and city3. And I oracled CS at turn80, just 2turns later compared to no GLH 2cities approach.
How does everyone feel about Pottery here?
In terms of GLH it will push back Oracle-CS another 2 turns...
That makes me nervous as it makes everything late... True we're playing humans but AIs also need to be considered and we can't get away with doing everything...
So!
GLH or no GLH = Writing or Pottery
hydraculas Sep 21, 2010, 01:11 PM And I have a plan B. Plan A is a finance maximized one with a very late chariot.(after turn60)
If we need, the capital can produce chariot after worker3 and grow to 4. Then produce worker4 at 4 and then library to 5. It's about turn62 and 1 turns later compared to plan A. The using of Gold mine2 will also delayed for 3 or 4 turns.
In plan B we will get a chariot at turn 53.
Plan for the next set
t32:worker1,2 go to cow, clean the fallout and make pasture
t33:warrior1 finished, go to the hill besides DG (north west to the rice)
capital continue warriors to 3
t35 capital grow to 2 and the pasture finished
t36:worker1,worker2 to horse, make pasture;when finished, worker1 to gold mine and worker2 to clean the fallout of city2
t39 capital grow to 3 and start to produce settler
t41 pottery finished > writing
t45 settler finished > worker3
t46 city2 settled, save cash for 1 turn;worker2 go to the rice of capital
t48 gold mine finished > worker1 go to another gold mine to build road
t49 worker3 borned > worker4; worker3 go to the east tile of capital
t50 worker1,2,3 build road at the same turn(road from rice to the gold mine)
t51 writing finished > mysticism (start saving cash and 100% at turn57 according my simulation)
when worker4 produced, the rice is about to finished and then capital build library to pop5
Duckweed Sep 21, 2010, 01:16 PM Isn't the vote clear already?
Issue about GLH can be left to next set after Writing. I might take some time to run more tests tonight. Let's focus on a 15 turn set to Writing now and get it going.
Worker's micro and tile management are not very clear, would be happy to see explicitly. (City 2 on T46 + gold available on T48) vs (both City 2 and gold available on T47), I think the latter comes ahead.
After 3rd worker, lib or 4th worker?
My vote for all those issues unchanged.
Let's vote for all uncertain issues before getting to the more detailed plan. IMO it's inefficient to keep revising plan without voting for debating issues in advance and I strongly suggest active player try to do it.
hydraculas Sep 21, 2010, 01:26 PM Now we have 3 plans:
A Oracling CS on turn 78 with 2cities without GLH( http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9631049&postcount=168)
B Oracling CS on turn 82 with 2cities with GLH(http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9631049&postcount=168)
C Oracling CS on turn 80 with 3cities without GLH(http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9631784&postcount=173)
We need to decide now. If we choose plan C, we should tech > Pottery ahead of writing.
Isn't the vote clear already?
Issue about GLH can be left to next set after Writing. I might take some time to run more tests tonight. Let's focus on a 15 turn set to Writing now and get it going.
Worker's micro and tile management are not very clear, would be happy to see explicitly. (City 2 on T46 + gold available on T48) vs (both City 2 and gold available on T47), I think the latter comes ahead.
After 3rd worker, lib or 4th worker?
My vote for all those issues unchanged.
Let's vote for all uncertain issues before getting to the more detailed plan. IMO it's inefficient to keep revising plan without voting for debating issues in advance and I strongly suggest active player try to do it.
BornInCantaloup Sep 21, 2010, 04:29 PM Issue about GLH can be left to next set after Writing. I might take some time to run more tests tonight. Let's focus on a 15 turn set to Writing now and get it going.
Worker's micro and tile management are not very clear, would be happy to see explicitly. (City 2 on T46 + gold available on T48) vs (both City 2 and gold available on T47), I think the latter comes ahead.
After 3rd worker, lib or 4th worker?
- I hope you'll have time to run some tests soon :)
- I also prefer city 2 and gold available on T47. From the current situation, that means using the 2nd worker for a turn to clear the fallout on the gold and moving the settler on the city spot while there still is fallout.
- I still favour the infrastructure after the 3rd worker. It allows for a faster growth and, most importantly, faster use of the 2nd gold mine.
@ Hydraculas :
I'm not opposed at all to tech Pottery first (in fact I may favour it) but it's an issue that needs discussion. There's a lack of arguments on that matter.
In any case, if we tech Pottery, the capital should have a granary built before the library (size 3 to 4 : Granary ; 4 to 5 : Library) and then we could build the Oracle with a size 6 capital.
Sidenote Pottery & GLH :
Researching Pottery delays CoL/Maths but is not incompatible with the GLH.
If we go Pottery>Sailing>Writing, then we can go Workboat>Lighthouse in city 2 and Granary>Library in the capital. EDIT : not really, maybe... There seems to be 1 iddle turn in the capital between the completion of the granary and the start of the library (T56). That is with 3 workers.
Is it too late to discuss those issues ? We're still at a stage where tests don't take more than 5-10 minutes. Maybe 20 if we go to the Oracle's completion...
I'm a bit lost... what are the official, voted, objectives ?
Oracle Civil Service and ?
BornInCantaloup Sep 21, 2010, 04:36 PM Double post, sorry.
In any case, I don't have a very clear opinion on what I wrote above. Still running tests.
kossin Sep 21, 2010, 04:41 PM Ok, let's get this going:
VOTE:
Pottery>Writing or Writing
It's kind of a bummer to have to vote once again as we had already agreed on Writing first but it's a valid option so consider well your vote. I need some time to consider before my vote.
Duckweed Sep 21, 2010, 04:47 PM @all
My 2 tests game were to find out the possible date of Oracle and GLH, the worker micro and city build need big adjustment.:p One apparent adjustment is that worker should road to the next city site and clean the fallout. This can only be discussed when we see more map surrounding.
@hydraculas
2 turns of earlier Oracle IS important, we know that this is a big gamble and that's the major reason why I said that I don't have very strong preference for GLH in the beginning. City 3 helps to work cottages for capital is good. However, the problems I have seen are
1. 2 turns of delay of Oracle
2. One of the cottage is on silk, yes the yield of cottage will be more than silk improvement in the end, however, the resource trade value of 1 extra silk make it better than town.
3. That city will stop on size 2 or 3 for very long time.
4. Since you draw lots of worker turn to setup that city, the Fish city was seriously weakened, as I can see that the clam is not claimed yet.
5. For the same reason, at that time, the site for a better city should be ready to be settled. A better site in my mind is that it should have strong health resources to help the empire fight the health issue.
BornInCantaloup Sep 21, 2010, 05:26 PM Vote :
- Writing first again, as per the majority.
- Gold first (see micro below). I don't see the point of going Horse first if we delay the settling from T46 to T47. If we go Horse first, as per the vote, I'm in favour of using both workers to clean the fallout for 1 turn and settle on T47.
Not the vote :
- Just lost the Oracle on T72 to some AI. Won some 35 gold ^^
Micro for Gold first :
Both workers clear the fallout on the gold tile. Then one of them mines and the other goes clear the fallout on the city spot.
Gold done on T43. The worker heads straight for the rice (not roading).
City 2 settled on T47. The worker heads for the 2nd gold tile (to road).
T51 : 3rd worker ready : goes 1E to road. 2nd and 3rd workers' roads are synched.
T52 : Warrior done, library started. Rice cleared (and improved next turn, iirc). Capital works Cow, Cow Rice.
hydraculas Sep 21, 2010, 05:52 PM It's just a bigger gamble, just like oracling CS on t78 is a gamble as well.
We can see it in this way, we have 60% chance to win 600 points with plan A (oracling CS with 2 cities on t78);and we have 55% chance to win 800 points with plan B(oracling CS with 3 cities on t80)
Through my simulation, I found that one of the efficient way to overcome fallout is more cities, closer cities with lower population, as a high population require more health and closer cities share a healthy land(if u clean a fallout, u may provide health to 2 cities). In plan A, city2 can keep a high population, but at the same time it face a deeper health penalty. I think the best way to overcome the early health problem of city2 is specialists.
In overall, plan B has a better economy compared to plan A: 2 more workers, (+55) to (+47) tech income (while plan B don't even has a academy) and 2 early village.
@BIC
about the ganary in capital, u can have a try to grow to 6. Just try to find out when u can oracle CS.
@all
My 2 tests game were to find out the possible date of Oracle and GLH, the worker micro and city build need big adjustment.:p One apparent adjustment is that worker should road to the next city site and clean the fallout. This can only be discussed when we see more map surrounding.
@hydraculas
2 turns of earlier Oracle IS important, we know that this is a big gamble and that's the major reason why I said that I don't have very strong preference for GLH in the beginning. City 3 helps to work cottages for capital is good. However, the problems I have seen are
1. 2 turns of delay of Oracle
2. One of the cottage is on silk, yes the yield of cottage will be more than silk improvement in the end, however, the resource trade value of 1 extra silk make it better than town.
3. That city will stop on size 2 or 3 for very long time.
4. Since you draw lots of worker turn to setup that city, the Fish city was seriously weakened, as I can see that the clam is not claimed yet.
5. For the same reason, at that time, the site for a better city should be ready to be settled. A better site in my mind is that it should have strong health resources to help the empire fight the health issue.
hydraculas Sep 21, 2010, 06:11 PM And just think in another way:
What if we failed in Oracling CS?
With 3 cities approach, at least we will have one more city.
In the 2 cities approach, we even don't have a cottage.
There are three situation:
a) AI finished Oracle before turn 78
b) AI finished Oracle in turn78 or turn79
c) AI finished Oracle later than turn 79
In all of the possibilities, I think only situation b will make Plan A better and Plan B, and that's a very small probability.
Duckweed Sep 21, 2010, 06:46 PM @BIC
That's my 1st test when comparing to your plan, which should lead to T77 Oracle. I changed my mind later since horse 1st lets capital grow to size5 2 turns earlier and enables capital to build a chariot rather than a warrior. That chariot could bring us some workers.
@hydraculas
My major point about your plan is that you take more risk with little gain. True that you get a 3rd city settled earlier but at the cost of a weakened fish city. A better 3rd city can be settled around the time when finishing Oracle and will outperform the rice city very soon.
hydraculas Sep 21, 2010, 07:07 PM @BIC
@hydraculas
My major point about your plan is that you take more risk with little gain. True that you get a 3rd city settled earlier but at the cost of a weakened fish city. A better 3rd city can be settled around the time when finishing Oracle and will outperform the rice city very soon.
I settled city3 at turn66, that's a big lead and I think this is not a small gain.
I had a weaker city2 just because I ran the scientists. Why do u ignore the loss of hammers of capital if u ran scientists in capital?What's more, is it worthy for city2 have a high population at early time? With 2 food resources, city2 is too easy to grow population. It's just a better place of SE than the capital. At early time,it will also face health penalty as it grow up.
And the place of city3 is not a bad place either. It helps the capital to grow cottages. It's a coastal city. Closer cities are helpful to overcome the fallout.
Why not consider more about the 3 situations I mentioned in post 193? We need to consider all the possibilities.
kossin Sep 21, 2010, 08:18 PM And just think in another way:
What if we failed in Oracling CS?
With 3 cities approach, at least we will have one more city.
In the 2 cities approach, we even don't have a cottage.
There are three situation:
a) AI finished Oracle before turn 78
b) AI finished Oracle in turn78 or turn79
c) AI finished Oracle later than turn 79
In all of the possibilities, I think only situation b will make Plan A better and Plan B, and that's a very small probability.
If we want to consider this then I can add: let's not put all eggs in the same basket and try for GLH as well.
We can't do anything about a) except finish on t77
About b)... there really isn't much to say. Either we aren't affected by finishing earlier or we lose just like a).
About c)... once again, same thing.
Basically, we only need to consider 2 things:
-we finish Oracle first
-we get beaten to Oracle
Either way it's a gamble. I've seen Gandhi finish it in 1100BC in one of my games.
Our decision should be made on what is best for us more than was is safest... as there is no safest.
If we can force the AI to delay it then we will most likely get it, whatever our tech path. If we don't, we lose it.
>>>Writing first (and still for GLH but we can evaluate this after next set).
Playing another set will give us an idea about Wonder dates... in the test game SG goes t34 and TGW not long after.... it the dates are slower in the real game (which they should as fallout should be there and from what I've seen the AI don't clean it), we've got a game.
hydraculas Sep 21, 2010, 08:55 PM Our decision should be made on what is best for us more than was is safest... as there is no safest.
If that's your point, why don't you go pottery and try for oracling CS with 3 cities?
I don't wanna go for GLH because the repaid is low and uncertain. However early city3 is always profitable.
BornInCantaloup Sep 22, 2010, 05:33 AM Hmmm...
I'll try to let the discussion go further with a look at what bothers me in the current plan :
Plan for the next set
t32:worker1,2 go to cow, clean the fallout and make pasture
t33:warrior1 finished, go to the hill besides DG (north west to the rice)
capital continue warriors to 3
t35 capital grow to 2 and the pasture finished
t36:worker1,worker2 to horse, make pasture;when finished, worker1 to gold mine and worker2 to clean the fallout of city2
t39 capital grow to 3 and start to produce settler
t41 pottery finished > writing
t45 settler finished > worker3
t46 city2 settled, save cash for 1 turn;worker2 go to the rice of capital
t48 gold mine finished > worker1 go to another gold mine to build road
t49 worker3 borned > worker4; worker3 go to the east tile of capital
t50 worker1,2,3 build road at the same turn(road from rice to the gold mine)
t51 writing finished > mysticism (start saving cash and 100% at turn57 according my simulation)
when worker4 produced, the rice is about to finished and then capital build library to pop5
T46 : city 2 works 2H2C tile, I assume ? And 3H8C from T48...
This means the workboat will complete on T54 and the fish will be improved on T55.
On the other hand, worker 4 will be done on T54. The rice was cleared on T53 and will be improved on T55.
This doesn't seem to trouble you but it does trouble me. Maybe you can explain me how you deal with the following :
- On T54, the capital works cow, cow unimproved rice. City 2 works the gold mine.
- On T55, the fish is improved and city 2 should work it ("should" as in : different micros allow to work it). However, the capital is size 3 and has access to 3 tiles that yield 4 food. Do you keep on working the gold tile with city 2 ? I think it is a mistake. Or do you stop working the rice in the capital so that city 2 can work the fish ? No more satisfying, in my opinion. Let's say you stun the growth in city 2 (in fact there's no other choice because the 2nd gold is incoming).
- On T57, the 2nd gold is improved. The capital can work it and still grow to 4 on T58. That's all good except... when will city 2 work its fish ?
- T58 : Capital reaches size 4, works Cow, Cow, Rice, 2nd gold. Library is due in 2 turns and the city will grow to size 5 in 5 turns. City 2 will start working the fish on T63, is that right ?
Maybe I should state more clearly my objectives for the incoming 20 turns. They make sense to me but maybe they're more debattable than I think ?
1) I'd like to allow the capital and city to grow at a steady rate. Size 5 is an important threshold to the capital and size 2 is as important to city 2 ;
2) I'd like to work both gold tile as early as possible (1 turn later 1st gold for 1 turn earlier 2nd gold is perfectly ok).
If those short term objectives aren't consensual, I could try to elaborate on their respective usefulness. Your micro contradicts point 1 and leads me to restate the advantages of 3 workers only before the library : Faster growth of the capital makes it easier to share tiles with city 2 so that both cities can grow.
The workforce is more strained with 3 workers but 4 workers isn't more flexible at all (see above).
Minor question :
What about the 3rd warrior ? Are we just going to lose the hammers ?
BornInCantaloup Sep 22, 2010, 05:55 AM If that's your point, why don't you go pottery and try for oracling CS with 3 cities?
I don't wanna go for GLH because the repaid is low and uncertain. However early city3 is always profitable.
I don't want to seem to contradict you on every single point you make but :
I doubt the repaid of Pottery will be higher than that of the GLH, especially without a Granary...
Do we even want to cottage the capital instead of farming it ? It has so many hills and our happy cap isn't so high yet (not sure on this issue, I lack experience).
I'm not opposed to a 3rd city but we're not forced to cottage it : we could go something like 2 farms, 2 mines, build a Library and run scientists. Being Creative and saving research time on Pottery, would it be much worse than your testrun ?
Hence,
GLH shouldn't be compared to Pottery, in my opinion. It may be compared to an early Academy in the capital, though. This has very strong consequences when we have 2 gold tiles and are gunning for Bureaucracy.
ps : Any news of DingDing ?
kossin Sep 22, 2010, 06:14 AM If that's your point, why don't you go pottery and try for oracling CS with 3 cities?
I don't wanna go for GLH because the repaid is low and uncertain. However early city3 is always profitable.
Because we might very well find a better location for city #3 after Warriors start scouting a bit. That Rice might be needed by another city in the area.
The arguments Duckweed made ab out the cottages are very valuable, especially the one on the silk. And this capital will require food over cottages for the many hills it has.
@BIC
re: dingding
He did say he was quite busy during weeks and mostly had free time on weekends.
IMO we should go with his previous vote. Same for nishant, it's been too long.
Writing first.
Duckweed Sep 22, 2010, 07:40 AM With some worker adjustment, city 2 can be settled on T46 and gold mine can be improved on T47. Earn 3H3C in this case.:D
2 workers improve horse together for 1 turn only, next turn, 1 worker goes to gold mine and leave 1 worker to finish the pasture for 2 turns, this worker still has time to remove the fallout for fish city on T46.
hydraculas Sep 22, 2010, 08:11 AM Are u sure about that? Acutally to the west we can already see the border of DG and as we can see there are not any resources except the rice. As far as I can see, I don't think there is a better place for city3. If u wanna settle south to the rice, my city3 won't affect that and u can take use all the resources u want as city4.
Closer cities are good for micro and have a better economy at early times. The city close to capital can grow the cottages for the capital when we save cash and the capital can take use of the mature cottages when we finished academy and CS and 100% tech rush. I can't find another place to grow cottages for the capital.
The place also have good food and hammers. With a granary and irrigated rice and other farms the food is enough.The hammers are good with these hills. If we found copper/iron in PH west south to the capital, there is not another place to take use of it.
Because we might very well find a better location for city #3 after Warriors start scouting a bit. That Rice might be needed by another city in the area.
The arguments Duckweed made ab out the cottages are very valuable, especially the one on the silk. And this capital will require food over cottages for the many hills it has.
hydraculas Sep 22, 2010, 08:13 AM Good. I will try this:)
With some worker adjustment, city 2 can be settled on T46 and gold mine can be improved on T47. Earn 3H3C in this case.:D
2 workers improve horse together for 1 turn only, next turn, 1 worker goes to gold mine and leave 1 worker to finish the pasture for 2 turns, this worker still has time to remove the fallout for fish city on T46.
kossin Sep 22, 2010, 08:27 AM Are u sure about that? Acutally to the west we can already see the border of DG and as we can see there are not any resources except the rice. As far as I can see, I don't think there is a better place for city3. If u wanna settle south to the rice, my city3 won't affect that and u can take use all the resources u want as city4.
Closer cities are good for micro and have a better economy at early times. The city close to capital can grow the cottages for the capital when we save cash and the capital can take use of the mature cottages when we finished academy and CS and 100% tech rush. I can't find another place to grow cottages for the capital.
The place also have good food and hammers. With a granary and irrigated rice and other farms the food is enough.The hammers are good with these hills. If we found copper/iron in PH west south to the capital, there is not another place to take use of it.
Of course we can't be sure of either. There are merits on both options - however if we're going to delay Oracle by a few turns I'd rather it be for an attempt on GLH than on cottages.
On overall strategy I'd prefer GLH + 3 cities that can spam workers/settlers than cottages -> this is what I base my vote on, I know the power of cottages for a Bureaucracy capital and we can't have everything.
Ideally I'd take the three options... Pottery>Writing and GLH but I think this is too greedy to work... heck we're not even certain about Oracle or GLH but they are gambles... it's certain that someone will manage to Oracle Civil Service out of the 10 teams... we need an edge to push us ahead of them.
We've been going over this issue for quite some time now and there's a clear majority for Writing without Pottery meaning the team either wants a try at GLH or a try at earlier Oracle.
~~~
Just wondering, how many more turns is it to do Writing>Pottery than Pottery>Writing?
1~2 turns?
If it doesn't affect Oracle date then let's push back the decision for after Writing and play SOOOOOOOOOOON.
hydraculas Sep 22, 2010, 08:56 AM We will make the 3rd warrior and then 4 turns for 4th worker.
In fact the capital grow to 5 before the city2 grow to 2 at turn61(library finished in same turn). In my micro, pop5 of capital is more important than pop2 of city2. Mainly for the following reasons:
a) capital need to grow to 5 and the library need to be finished asap.The sooner it is finished, the sooner we can take both of the gold mine in capital with library and that's much stronger than a gold mine in city2.
b) if city2 grows to 2 before the capital to 5, then when the capital grows to 5, which tile should you put for the 2nd pop of city2? At that time the cow is not finished.
C) early 2 pop of city2 will face health penalty.
About the 4th worker, well workers are always not enough. We need workers for city2. We need workers to clean the fallout of city3 and make cottages and build roads. I even found 4 workers not enough, as the fallout.
Hmmm...
I'll try to let the discussion go further with a look at what bothers me in the current plan :
T46 : city 2 works 2H2C tile, I assume ? And 3H8C from T48...
This means the workboat will complete on T54 and the fish will be improved on T55.
On the other hand, worker 4 will be done on T54. The rice was cleared on T53 and will be improved on T55.
This doesn't seem to trouble you but it does trouble me. Maybe you can explain me how you deal with the following :
- On T54, the capital works cow, cow unimproved rice. City 2 works the gold mine.
- On T55, the fish is improved and city 2 should work it ("should" as in : different micros allow to work it). However, the capital is size 3 and has access to 3 tiles that yield 4 food. Do you keep on working the gold tile with city 2 ? I think it is a mistake. Or do you stop working the rice in the capital so that city 2 can work the fish ? No more satisfying, in my opinion. Let's say you stun the growth in city 2 (in fact there's no other choice because the 2nd gold is incoming).
- On T57, the 2nd gold is improved. The capital can work it and still grow to 4 on T58. That's all good except... when will city 2 work its fish ?
- T58 : Capital reaches size 4, works Cow, Cow, Rice, 2nd gold. Library is due in 2 turns and the city will grow to size 5 in 5 turns. City 2 will start working the fish on T63, is that right ?
Maybe I should state more clearly my objectives for the incoming 20 turns. They make sense to me but maybe they're more debattable than I think ?
1) I'd like to allow the capital and city to grow at a steady rate. Size 5 is an important threshold to the capital and size 2 is as important to city 2 ;
2) I'd like to work both gold tile as early as possible (1 turn later 1st gold for 1 turn earlier 2nd gold is perfectly ok).
If those short term objectives aren't consensual, I could try to elaborate on their respective usefulness. Your micro contradicts point 1 and leads me to restate the advantages of 3 workers only before the library : Faster growth of the capital makes it easier to share tiles with city 2 so that both cities can grow.
The workforce is more strained with 3 workers but 4 workers isn't more flexible at all (see above).
Minor question :
What about the 3rd warrior ? Are we just going to lose the hammers ?
hydraculas Sep 22, 2010, 09:28 AM @kossin
come on...u really think the GLH will works? It is very likely that when you finished the GLH(at the same time you have currency) u will not gain a single additional trade route because of not enough cities! Even u have later, just 2 coins to each coast city and u really think it worthy?
kossin Sep 22, 2010, 09:53 AM Not right away but long term of course.
hydraculas Sep 22, 2010, 10:10 AM What is long term? After 120 turns? Even when we found AIs on another continent and when we have astronomy? And who knows when we can open borders with AI?
I just can not see the date. As we all know the importance of snowball effect and the repaid of GLH is just too slow to evaluate. If we take use of the hammers of GLH into something early repaid it will surely make a better snowball effect. We can have more choices and better chances.
I didn't take GLH in consider since long time ago. I just don't understand why u still not abandon it.
Not right away but long term of course.
dingding Sep 22, 2010, 11:07 AM @ hydra:
Our success in the last competition was partly due to GLH. Indeed it's output/hammer efficiency may be the highest among all the wonders. In the last game, it gave at least 23 bearkers per hammer on Epic speed, that's about 15 beakers per hammer on Normal. A great investment.
Surely it's less valuable in this game. My expectation of it is relatively low (if built it at t90, obsolete at t200, we have at average 5 coastal cities during 110 turns. Its efficiency can be some 7-8 beakers per hammer), but it's still a good investment among the options we have at the moment.
Duckweed's 82turn-Oracle approach with GLH convinces me. I'm for this plan: GLH, Horse-first. So pottery can be skipped to me.
Will try some tests tonight. I'll be unavailable for the next few days (except for Friday night)
hydraculas Sep 22, 2010, 11:40 AM @dingding
the GLH worth 1 settler and 2 worker(not include the lighthouse) and that's enough for one more city. Why not calculate one more city for 110 turns? Even if it has an average of 10hammers and 10beakers, it would be 1100hammers and 1100beakers and it's about 5.5hammers+5.5beakers per hammer. And the city will not obsolete forever.
So which one is better? And this doesn't count the snowball effect which could brought by this city, as earlier return could help us to make bigger investment.
I understand, just because the GLH in last competition makes u adoring it so much. However this game is totally different and u won't get any foreign trade routes for a long time. Have u think about that DG and us are the only 2 civs on the island and we won't have a single foreign trade route until astronomy?
Fine Fine I will accept it if that is your point. If anyone complained about the return of GLH later, don't ask for me ok?
kossin Sep 22, 2010, 12:03 PM @dingding
I understand, just because the GLH in last competition makes u adoring it so much. However this game is totally different and u won't get any foreign trade routes for a long time. Have u think about that DG and us are the only 2 civs on the island and we won't have a single foreign trade route until astronomy?
Fine Fine I will accept it if that is your point. If anyone complained about the return of GLH later, don't ask for me ok?
The door is still open for skipping GLH...
The next set is Writing at which point we can decide to abandon GLH in favor of whatever else. We will have a lot of scouting done in those ~15 turns which can make us change decisions.
We might even decide on Writing>Pottery (I know it'd be better Pottery>Writing in hindsight but now we don't know).
It's a game... you win some, lose some.
hydraculas Sep 22, 2010, 12:12 PM I hope we won't go back like Writing>Pottery, this act is just so silly!
The door is still open for skipping GLH...
The next set is Writing at which point we can decide to abandon GLH in favor of whatever else. We will have a lot of scouting done in those ~15 turns which can make us change decisions.
We might even decide on Writing>Pottery (I know it'd be better Pottery>Writing in hindsight but now we don't know).
It's a game... you win some, lose some.
kossin Sep 22, 2010, 12:21 PM I know :) What I meant is Writing>...>Pottery.
For the record, I think your suggestion of Pottery>Writing is very strong and if I'd be playing Single Player against AIs that's what I'd do... but in a competition we have to dare a bit more.
BornInCantaloup Sep 22, 2010, 01:05 PM If we all agree to play to the end of Writing, then there's not much to debate for this set - not much disagreement. It would lead us to T48 with the 2nd city settled, the gold improved and both workers ready to move (1 on the gold tile and the other on the desert tile).
Improving the horse as per Duckweed's suggestion (1 turn only with 1 worker) looks perfect to me.
We will make the 3rd warrior and then 4 turns for 4th worker.
In fact the capital grow to 5 before the city2 grow to 2 at turn61(library finished in same turn). In my micro, pop5 of capital is more important than pop2 of city2. Mainly for the following reasons:
a) capital need to grow to 5 and the library need to be finished asap.The sooner it is finished, the sooner we can take both of the gold mine in capital with library and that's much stronger than a gold mine in city2.
b) if city2 grows to 2 before the capital to 5, then when the capital grows to 5, which tile should you put for the 2nd pop of city2? At that time the cow is not finished.
C) early 2 pop of city2 will face health penalty.
This is an issue for the next turnset. If you haven't, I strongly suggest you run a test with 3 workers before the library. The 4th worker could be started when the capital reaches size 5. Then we could afford a 5th and/or a settler. I haven't run tests past T72 yet but I've seen that starting the Oracle as soon as we have Priesthood is too early.
a) The capital grows to size 5 and finishes the library faster if we delay the 4th worker.
b) The 2nd gold tile can be improved while the capital is still size 4. This means that it could work Cow, Cow, Rice, Gold while the second city works Fish & Gold.
The 2nd city doesn't have a library at the time, that's right. What do we lose ? 2C/turn. What do we gain ? Faster growth (again !!!) because we can work the rice. The capital loses a bit but I'm convinced we gain a lot at the scale of the empire. Also, those hammers in city 2 would be put into the GLH/Library. Far from being worthless.
Finally, 2 gold + 2 cows + horse + rice make 6 improved specials. That's too much for a size 5 capital. So why not share ?
c) Ok, city 2 has -1 food from unhealthiness for a few turns. So the fish becomes a 4F2C tile instead of 5F2C. Still better than no fish at all, don't you agree ?
About the 4th worker, well workers are always not enough. We need workers for city2. We need workers to clean the fallout of city3 and make cottages and build roads. I even found 4 workers not enough, as the fallout.
Cottages... City 3... Maybe we'll do that. Maybe we won't. Right ? Team game ; team decides.
When our 2 warriors will have scouted a bit the surroundings, we will have more info to weight city 3.
And remember we can still build additional workers after completing the library ;) Most probably, we will not remain stuck at 3 workers forever.
Example. After the 3rd worker, say we focus the capital on food (works forested silk rather than horse and rice rather than forested silk) :
- The capital grows to size 5 and completes the library on T57 (need to lend the gold to city 2 for 1 turn to synch growth and library). If I followed well your plan with 4 workers, on T57 the capital is still size 3 and about to grow to 4. With 4 workers, the capital would grow to size 5 on T63. That is 6 turns later.
- 2nd gold is improved on T59. That is T57 in your plan. 2 turns earlier, right. That means 4 workers is 14 commerce ahead of 3 workers. Except that... 4 workers completes its library on T60 vs T57 for 3 workers.
I won't provide you elaborate maths but 3 workers doesn't come out behind in terms of beakers. The library is worth 4,75 beakers/turn from T57, then 6,5 beakers/turn from T59.
City 2 reaches size 2 on T61 and, at that point, we can discuss whether to share the gold tile or not (losing 2bpt accross the empire, as stated above).
kossin Sep 22, 2010, 01:11 PM I haven't run tests past T72 yet but I've seen that starting the Oracle as soon as we have Priesthood is too early.
Remember we want to put at least some hammers in Oracle AS SOON AS POSSIBLE to give a better chance that Gandhi will not start it.
Anyway, I'll run a few tests tonight as well but so far I think Duckweed's worker suggestion is probably the best way forward.
dingding Sep 22, 2010, 01:11 PM I hope we won't go back like Writing>Pottery, this act is just so silly!
I understand your feeling. But the game is all about teamwork and every of us should adapt to the strategy that WE choose.
I think your point is noted: Pottery => Writing has the best beaker efficiency. The actual problem is that we have a bad visibility on the surrounding. We need to improve it within 10~ turns of scouting. Our going for Writing doesn't necessarily mean choosing GLH and abandoning Pottery afterwards. We may lose a few beakers on Writing=>Pottery but that's not a big problem.
Looking forward to your revised plan and update of the game.:)
BornInCantaloup Sep 22, 2010, 02:54 PM Remember we want to put at least some hammers in Oracle AS SOON AS POSSIBLE to give a better chance that Gandhi will not start it.
Anyway, I'll run a few tests tonight as well but so far I think Duckweed's worker suggestion is probably the best way forward.
Yes, I remember this. I just phrased my sentence the short way :)
We can put 1 turn of hammers into the Oracle when we get Priesthood and then time its completion with techs.
In that line of thought, we have the opportunity, in the testgame, to make peace with all of the AIs except for Stalin and Churchill.
Should we offer peace ? Maybe not to De Gaulle if we want to keep the option to steal workers, but maybe to the others ?
EDIT : ok, my bad. You already stated that it wouldn't work, I believe.
kossin Sep 22, 2010, 03:00 PM It's not going to work in the game as Erkon made us lose 14 warriors against each AI (see F9 screen, 84 warriors lost). Peace requires at least a tech... we can buy Alphabet from Gandhi relatively soon and use that.
hydraculas Sep 22, 2010, 03:03 PM @BIC
Actually the capital grow to 5 at turn 61 and the library finished at turn 60 or 61, depends on micro.
My plan is mainly based on my simulation that oracling CS with 3 cities. If u can do it before turn 80, just show me and I will adopt it. If u don't wanna oracle CS with 3cities, we are not talking about the same thing.
I will go for the next set until city2 is settled, then we can have an evaluation for the GLH. If the return of GLH is not high enough, I will still insist on oracling CS with 3cities, since I think it's much better than 2cities without GLH.
hydraculas Sep 22, 2010, 03:31 PM Does dingding need to submit his saves to the submission website? Or I can continue his saves and we submit them later?
I will do it tonight.
kossin Sep 22, 2010, 04:01 PM @hydraculas
1- Can we get a rough plan first?
2- Yes you can continue from his last save. We will upload to server after we have acquired Writing (which is 1 turn after 2nd city is settled in the real game I believe - I got 182/187 on t47 and the real game should have at least a few more beakers, maybe 8).
kossin Sep 22, 2010, 05:05 PM A few more tests... I keep getting beaten to Oracle by 1~2 turns... however the GLH is never in danger from what I've seen - weird!
BornInCantaloup Sep 22, 2010, 05:56 PM @BIC
My plan is mainly based on my simulation that oracling CS with 3 cities. If u can do it before turn 80, just show me and I will adopt it. If u don't wanna oracle CS with 3cities, we are not talking about the same thing.
I've tried several times with 3 workers and :
- T80 with 3 cities (growing on the silk/rice and then going worker, worker, settler after the library ; of course it was an awful city because I lacked Pottery and couldn't even complete the library before the Oracle) ;
- T79 with 2 cities (tried both growing on the silk and on the horse ; horse is probably better since it brings a library 2 turns earlier and still allows to grow to size 5 on T59, the turn where the 2nd gold mine is complete).
I'm not sure how Duckweed and Kossin managed T77-T78 but I'll try again tomorrow :)
Oh ! And I did this researching neither Pottery, nor Sailing... Maybe I lack the know how :goodjob:
Yeah... This ain't the post that will convince you...
Good luck with the play !
Duckweed Sep 22, 2010, 06:11 PM I think it's preferred by organizer that we upload the save to the official site and next active player gets it from there. It would be better that dingding uploads the save 1st. We'd like to see the final plan from hydraculas before actual play anyway.
A few more tests... I keep getting beaten to Oracle by 1~2 turns... however the GLH is never in danger from what I've seen - weird!
Since some AIs does not have a coastal capital in the test game,;) especially Roosevelt. Try to give him a coastal capital and you will see the opposite. In this game, It's very likely that Stalin is the only AI does not have a coastal capital. My rule of wonder attempt is that it should be over or at least close to 50% successful chance. I become suspicious whether we will attempt GLH.
kossin Sep 22, 2010, 06:14 PM Okay... let dingding upload then. Not gonna change much really.
About GLH: yea, I know. Still I've yet to see the coastal AI even start it (Churchill)... gonna wb a bit to see.
kossin Sep 22, 2010, 06:35 PM If AI capitals aren't fallout covered then getting GLH is a gamble. If 50% is the desired preference then we might as well forget it now.
I still say we wait to see the first few wonder dates.
hydraculas Sep 22, 2010, 08:12 PM @hydraculas
1- Can we get a rough plan first?
from turn 32 to turn 46:
capital:warrior to 3>settler>worker
city2 settled at turn 46 and gold mine finished at turn 47.
tech > writing
I think these are the same with everyone's simulation.
About the warriors, warrior1 to the GH north west to the rice to watch DG.
warrior 2 to the PH south west to the rice and then explore south.
Take care of each AI's movement all the time!
kossin Sep 22, 2010, 08:32 PM How about science slider? Do you plan 0% before or after city #2 is settled?
My preference is 1 turn of 0% right now in case an AI learns Writing in the meantime.
hydraculas Sep 22, 2010, 08:40 PM Yes, I mentioned this in my post before. It can at least save 1 coin when I settle the city.
How about science slider? Do you plan 0% before or after city #2 is settled?
My preference is 1 turn of 0% right now in case an AI learns Writing in the meantime.
Duckweed Sep 22, 2010, 09:54 PM I'm not sure how Duckweed and Kossin managed T77-T78 but I'll try again tomorrow :)
Oh ! And I did this researching neither Pottery, nor Sailing... Maybe I lack the know how :goodjob:
I had some extra beakers to complete math on T78 since I did not let capital take both gold after academy built.;)
If AI capitals aren't fallout covered then getting GLH is a gamble. If 50% is the desired preference then we might as well forget it now.
I still say we wait to see the first few wonder dates.
We could complete GLH on 625BC or earlier, that's not a bad date for a normal emperor game. Roosevelt with a coastal capital indeed increases the risk, however aggressive AI is a positive factor for wonder attempt. IMO Oracle on 825BC has the similar risk as GLH on 625BC.
from turn 32 to turn 46:
capital:warrior to 3>settler>worker
city2 settled at turn 46 and gold mine finished at turn 47.
tech > writing
I think these are the same with everyone's simulation.
About the warriors, warrior1 to the GH north west to the rice to watch DG.
warrior 2 to the PH south west to the rice and then explore south.
Take care of each AI's movement all the time!
It seems to me that Paris is closer if go southbound as there are 2 coastal tiles seen to the north, so that's a closer way warrior 1 should go if we want to arrive Paris earlier. Warrior 2 can go along the northeast coast to check if there are islands to be settled. Warrior 3 can check the southeast coast later.
I would appreciate if you could post more detailed plan as what kossin described in post #3, You can also take a look at the link in our SGOTM11 for the examples of the final plans except the 1st set by me :p.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9117669&postcount=2
dingding Sep 23, 2010, 12:23 AM Save uploadd
kossin Sep 23, 2010, 08:33 AM @hydraculas
You know where to get the save? (If not: Go to post #2 and click on the red link (Results and Progress)... the save is in the table under our team name.)
Had some spare time and verbalized the thing.
t32
Keep research at 100%: we might be able to pillage a few tiles
Both workers clean fallout
t33
Both workers done cleaning fallout
Warrior 1NW then 1SW
Capital goes for another warrior
t34
Both workers pasture cow
Warrior 1W
t35
Both workers done cow pasture [2nd pop on cow]
Warrior 1SW (now on Rice)
t36
Both workers on horse, pasture + CANCEL
Warrior 1SW (can be NW too I guess, both are hills iIrc)
t37
One worker goes to riverside gold hill
Other worker continues pasture
First warrior: get a look at Paris, try to pillage/capture worker (move according to land) - Paris should be 9 tiles West of our capital
Second warrior: goes to the north along the coast to check for islands
Capital: start 3rd warrior
t38
horse pasture done
t39
horse worker goes to second city site
Capital starts Settler, warrior in queue [3rd pop on horse]
t40
... move warriors
t41
Worker cleans fallout on second city site
t42
... move warriors
t43
gold fallout removed
t44
Worker starts gold mine
t45
If no tiles were pillaged (2 gold minimum), turn off research
Settler done
Start 3rd worker
Move settler NW then NW (NOT to the city spot, but 1 tile before just in case the game sends him before fallout is cleaned)
t46
Wait for fallout to be cleaned (press Ctrl-A at start of turn)
Move settler on cleaned grassland and settle city #2
City #2 takes PH gold from first city and works it, start workboat
t47
Writing should be in - save+upload
hydraculas Sep 23, 2010, 01:52 PM Oh no, the router in my apt broke down. Then my video card had something wrong. What a terrible day... I have to get these stuffs down by this weekend.
Kossin, these are exactly same as my simulation.
Can u play it for this set?
kossin Sep 23, 2010, 02:19 PM Sure, I'll wait a few hours for someone else to double-check the micro and then I'll play.
BornInCantaloup Sep 23, 2010, 04:46 PM Sure, I'll wait a few hours for someone else to double-check the micro and then I'll play.
That someone would be Duckweed, I believe.
I saw your micro not long after you posted it and nothing jumped to my mind. But things don't always jump to my mind ^^
Duckweed Sep 23, 2010, 04:47 PM Plan looks good. I'm pretty confident that Paris won't be reached straightly. Route though south is the logical way.
@BIC
Everything of this set has been discussed very thoroughly.:)
kossin Sep 23, 2010, 05:29 PM Okay, I'll play after dinner (maybe 1 hour).
Path south does indeed sound better to me for Paris... also gives us more vision on surrounding land as we won't see south anytime soon.
@BIC
Someone was meant as anyone - as Duckweed said we turned just about every rock so it was just a question of having at least a second person look it up for a(several) silly mistake(s).
kossin Sep 23, 2010, 07:10 PM Played and uploaded to submission page.
Some good news:
-no AI has expanded yet
-Judaism not founded
-it appears AIs are stuck under fallout slowing them down despite era bonuses
-no Wonders built yet!
-Gandhi has not gotten Priesthood still
-at least another landmass spotted (island or not... not sure)
-AIs still haven't met each other
-a lot of good land available (see deer+tundra silver spot as potential 3rd city site)
-Writing done as expected on t46
-good variety of resources
Less good:
-DG is far so couldn't pillage anything
-a lot of fallout before we can settle normally
My notes:
t37
Gandhi gets TW
t42
Stalin adopts Slavery
t44
Gandhi gets Pottery
Research to 0% (no tiles to pillage)
t46
Mao adopts Slavery
Game log
Turn 42, 2320 BC: Stalin the Despicable adopts Slavery!
Turn 44, 2240 BC: You have trained a Settler in Moscow. Work has now begun on a Worker.
Turn 45, 2200 BC: Gandhi will trade Pottery
Turn 46, 2160 BC: St. Petersburg has been founded.
Turn 46, 2160 BC: You have discovered Writing!
Turn 46, 2160 BC: Mao Zedong adopts Slavery!
Turn 47, 2120 BC: St. Petersburg has become unhealthy.
Turn 47, 2120 BC: Gandhi will trade Alphabet
Screenshots
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/6338/mousecivscreenshot001.jpg (http://img185.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mousecivscreenshot001.jpg)
http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3246/mousecivscreenshot002.jpg (http://img214.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mousecivscreenshot002.jpg)
http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7967/mousecivscreenshot003.jpg (http://img824.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mousecivscreenshot003.jpg)
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/1478/mousecivscreenshot004u.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mousecivscreenshot004u.jpg)
http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/7280/mousecivscreenshot005.jpg (http://img137.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mousecivscreenshot005.jpg)
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/5944/mousecivscreenshot006.jpg (http://img138.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mousecivscreenshot006.jpg)
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/5970/mousecivscreenshot007.jpg (http://img38.imageshack.us/my.php?image=mousecivscreenshot007.jpg)
Anyway, all these conditions suggest to me 3rd city sooner than later and attempt on GLH.
hydraculas Sep 23, 2010, 07:45 PM Is there are a north route to DG?
BTW:How can I copy the txt in Game log?
kossin Sep 23, 2010, 08:01 PM Is there are a north route to DG?
BTW:How can I copy the txt in Game log?
I don't know... I'd assume yes as otherwise it'd be too easy to block him in. However it might very well be a peninsula :confused:
Game log txt: when you upload the game via the site you get the game log, otherwise there's an Autolog folder in the Buffy mod directory iIrc.
hydraculas Sep 23, 2010, 08:31 PM Hmm...so many fallouts...I think Serfdom would be very useful in this game!
Seems really likely that DG and us are only two civs on the Island...which means lots of land for cities...
No wonder yet? I begin to dream again...Is there a possibility that we can oracle something even bigger than CS ?
Duckweed Sep 23, 2010, 08:31 PM Either a U turn also or inaccessible from North. We can park the warrior on the PH left, it should block DG for a while.
The ruin site north of SP seems best as 3rd city. We need quite a few galleys and WBs.
Who's next? BIC has done enough test runs to make it through.
kossin Sep 23, 2010, 08:40 PM Hmm...so many fallouts...I think Serfdom would be very useful in this game!
Seems really likely that DG and us are only two civs on the Island...which means lots of land for cities...
No wonder yet? I begin to dream again...Is there a possibility that we can oracle something even bigger than CS ?
Sure we can grab something bigger than CS... but would it actually be more useful?
hydraculas Sep 23, 2010, 08:45 PM Like Astronomy? I don't know...If each AI sign open borders, it is attractive. But considering AIs at war...
Maybe it will not that useful at that time, since we need hammers to REX.
Sure we can grab something bigger than CS... but would it actually be more useful?
kossin Sep 23, 2010, 10:00 PM Either a U turn also or inaccessible from North. We can park the warrior on the PH left, it should block DG for a while.
The ruin site north of SP seems best as 3rd city. We need quite a few galleys and WBs.
Who's next? BIC has done enough test runs to make it through.
nishant was up next in the roster but he hasn't been too much around. Either busy, Civ 5 or whatever...
If BIC has free time and wants to try it then why not... Basically, anyone that can and wants it.
@hydraculas
Maybe if we had retained some of the pre-requisites but otherwise Astronomy is just too far off... As you say we'll need hammers anyway to REX :)
BornInCantaloup Sep 24, 2010, 05:23 AM Good exploration, Kossin !
That no wonder has been built yet is indeed a good news.
If BIC has free time and wants to try it then why not... Basically, anyone that can and wants it.
I'll be away from Saturday at noon to Monday evening but, if you don't mind that, yes, I could take this set. I don't mind if somebody else takes it, though.
Regardless : issues for the next set (vote & discuss !) :
1) 3rd city, yes or no ? Where ?
The city ruins south of the silver looks great to me. The happy resource isn't so important to us at the moment but this is the site with the best commerce output.
We could also try to nab the pigs to the south-east. I'm unsure what would be the best location for this, though.
A city closer to the capital has some merits as well (less unhealthiness) and could probably make a production city (3 or 4 west of the capital ?). Problem : we do not have Bronze Working and certainly do not want to settle on grassland copper...
2) GLH, yes or nor ? Where ?
I was doubting about the GLH yesterday but now we can bet we will complete it before the AIs. There also is this island we can see to the North (or chain of islands. Flying camera revealed land to the North East of the capital). Odds are we could have 3 cities settled on another landmass, meaning 3 traderoutes yielding 2C.
St Petersbourg still looks like the best location to me.
3) Techpath ?
Sailing is linked to the GLH issue. But given the fallout, it may also ease the workers management (connexion through coast).
Sailing --> Priesthood. Insert Masonry when necessary.
How do we get to Priesthood ? Via Polytheism or Meditation ? I cannot foresee strong advantages of going Polytheism, so I'd say Meditation.
4) Capital's management ?
Finish worker, warrior. I think this is granted. What next ?
I'd favour Library --> Worker --> Worker --> Settler --> Oracle, I think.
Worker --> Library --> Worker --> Settler --> Oracle is also doable, as per Hydraculas suggestion.
Related : do we want to produce a GS in the capital asap ? At size 5, Moscow would work Cow, Cow, Gold + 2 Scientists. St Petersbourg would work the 2nd gold all the while. Note this is the way to generate the best beakers output.
However it hurts our production badly (workers, settlers) and may have repercussions on the number of workers we want to/can build (4 workers and not 5, maybe), as well as on the tiles we will work to grow the capital.
I didn't run enough tests with 4 workers, but here's the deal with 3 :
If we consider Rice > Silk > Horse, then we can grow to 5 and complete the library on T57 and get an Academy on T74. If we want the academy, I think this is the way to go.
If we consider Rice > Horse > Silk, then we can grow to 5 we can complete the library earlier (T54 iirc ; not sure) and grow to 5 on T59 (academy on T76). If we prefer to produce faster workers/settlers, this option is probably superior.
@ Hydraculas : Do you have some notes regarding the turns we can grow to 5 / complete the library with a 4 workers approach ? Iirc that's around T60. T60 is pretty good if we consider there's an additionnal worker. However the cost is a slower growth in city 2, meaning we won't be able to run 2 scientists in the capital straight away. Am I right ?
Summary :
Build orders ? 3 or 4 workers.
Tiles preference ? Silk vs horse.
Academy vs production ? tech rate vs expansion rate.
5) Set length ?
Hmmm...
If you want to raise other issues, please, do :goodjob:
BornInCantaloup Sep 24, 2010, 06:08 AM Slightly edited testgame :
I didn't play it through to avoid ruining Kossin's day :) Didn't touch much the French territory but I think our territory is quite accurate.
Hope that gains you some time !
@ North route to De Gaulle : That is very possible.
I believe the northern warrior should check this in priority.
kossin Sep 24, 2010, 06:10 AM I need to actually try out some tests before saying something credible otherwise...
1) 3rd city by 2x deer+silver looks to be worthwhile but I'm not certain of it. Another option would grab more health resources...
2) St-Pete... not enough trees to do it elsewhere
3) Assuming St-Pete goes with Lighthouse next then Sailing>...>PH via Meditation
4) This one will come from testing. Normally I went for fastest Academy (Rice>Silk>Horse) but since we might want to get a few more hammers maybe horse>silk for a few turns... to enable another settler and at least another worker
5) Depends on 3+4
@Test game
I started updating it last night after playing but I had some more pressing things to do and then sleep came :)
BornInCantaloup Sep 24, 2010, 06:27 AM 1) Well, it seems we have the choice between pigs and deer, as far as health resources are concerned. Or do we have any other choice ?
Where would you settle the pigs ? I feel uneasy on this matter because of De Gaulle's culture and our capital location (if we share the rice, I fear we will end up wasting tiles).
@ Testgame : depending on how much you advanced it, you may want to check my version :)
kossin Sep 24, 2010, 06:49 AM 1) Well, it seems we have the choice between pigs and deer, as far as health resources are concerned. Or do we have any other choice ?
Where would you settle the pigs ? I feel uneasy on this matter because of De Gaulle's culture and our capital location (if we share the rice, I fear we will end up wasting tiles).
@ Testgame : depending on how much you advanced it, you may want to check my version :)
Done now :)
Now I really need to clean up my attachments...
Pigs: remember it's a holy city, in about 40 or less turns he'll get another border pop we can't fight off that culture even with Creative (20+7 vs 20+2~4) so it's a no-no until we get his Capital
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