I thought it might be better to start a new thread to deal with the music race. First, CDZ has responded to our music announcement:
That sounds good. CDZ has already begun Music however so it would be advisable that you switch following Drama to avoid wasting beakers.
We need to decide how to best respond.

Also, have they given us literature? if so, we could consider going straight for music.

Music costs 600 beakers, and we are currently making 109 beakers, so that's 6 turns on full research, plus 2 for drama, so 8 turns to music. We have 128 gold and a 16gpt deficit, 128/16=8, so that's theoretically a perfect amount of gold to get us through. That deficit will be more since founding Cygnus, but we can counter that by building wealth for a few turns in Quatron. (Better than building research, I believe, since that will allow us to maintain 100% research). This means a) NOT upgrading the trireme, b) not whipping Quatron and c) not settling immediately with the next settler (though the built wealth might make up for the maintenance).

So, I've shown that it is possible for music in 8 turns (or 6 if we have literature), now we must ask, is it necessary? CDZ researched aesthetics (300 beakers) in 6 turns and literature (200 beakers) in 3 turns. This indicates a beaker per turn output of 50 or 66, if we don't take into account overflow. The output could be as high as 99, giving them massive overflow into music if that is true, this however I doubt. We can estimate where they are based on graphs which I do not have. If we take their beaker output to be 75, a reasonable but liberal estimate (again, we don't know what the overflow looks like), than that's 8 turns to music. Not counting overflow from literature, which is unknown. Mainly, we need to look at the graphs and estimate their GDP (though they are not running 100% science, we have more culture).

We also have to try not to tick off Sirius and Amazon.

I still say go for it. We "called" it first, did we not?

We just got Lit from CDZ.

And I got this PM from Sommerswerd to all the teams:

The AMAZON will complete Construction next turn. We will be teching Feudalism next. We agree with Sirius plan to tech Astronomy.

On the war front... We currently have several Pyrgomache destroying improvements near the coastal Merlot City, "the circus".

Peace and long life friends,

Sommerswerd, Zenobian Captain

To which I replied back to all teams:


Sommerswerd,

You guys will be teching Feudalism? I remember that CDZ said they would be teching Feudalism after Machinery. But then instead of doing that they seem to have gone Aesthetics-> Literature. :confused: Could all the teams clarify their tech plans so we are all on the same page?

Here is my understanding so far:

Quatronia: Drama (2 turns)-> Music (6 Turns)
Sirius: Astronomy
Amazons: Construction-> ?
CDZ: ?

-Cav

Hopefully this will stir things up a bit. There is still time on the clock so we can switch directly to Music. If we complete Drama first it does shave 10% of the time off Music though. And we did publicly declare Drama...

Looks like things might start to get a little tense with CDZ...

Looks good to me. Time to stir the pot...

Well it looks like it's game on... I went ahead and switched us to Music which we will get in 7 turns. We can shave a turn off of this if we run research in Quatron starting next turn.

It would be better to move a tile or two in random cities to coast rather than to build research, I think, if we could still shave off a turn like that. I know not having a lighthouse isn't great but still, 3 commerce per tile, and then we don't squander the rest of the city's production. But same principle.

Anyway I'm ok with just going for this, we can switch to music by me. Though I wish we'd gotten a message out a little earlier and at the very start suggested the bulbing idea (mentioning economics and physics too to be thinking ahead) so it wouldn't boil down into a conflict between us and CDZ.

I don't know how AMAZON or Sirius view this anyway though, but it's unfortunate we've gotten into so much trouble with CDZ over settling this whole time, could have been prevented in many ways (as in luck, like coincidence of being next to another non-Rexing team, or having the desert peninsula between us instead which has certainly worked for Sirius and AMAZON or something)

Exactly. I'm getting a little irritated with CDZ; our attempts to actually co-ordinate things with them have gone to deaf ears.

Really, the best option would have been for Sirius or Amazon to get music, but again, this was hampered by lack of co-ordination within the alliance.

Yeah I think we could've talked to Sirius 2-3 turns ago and just gone for Astro ourselves though, that's maybe partially our own decision working against us there. I still think it's been bad luck in general with CDZ as neighbors though, nothing to do about that.

If Amazon and Sirius get annoyed, then we can make it up to them by bulbing instead. Otherwise, we'll get to culture bomb. As long as we have the alliance to back us up to prevent CDZ from declaring war.

How is it 7 turns to music? I thought it was 600 beakers. Building research in Quatron should bring that down, and we probably don't have to do that the whole time, once we can build something else withough losing time, do it.

Didn't we publicly declare that we planned to work the top of the tech tree after completing optics?
If so then we have an excellent case to throw doubt onto CDZ as they are NOT co-operating under the terms of the ETTT i.e. open and forthright to avoid beaker duplication

Let's keep in mind that the ETTT isn't supposed to last forever. It's original goal was to get us quickly to Astro in order to take out the two weakest links. After that all bets are off. We should be considering how The Continuum sees that next phase panning out.

Being the instigator of the culture bomb brigade I support the decision to get the GA. The way I see it playing out is once we have the Mavs under control we would be considering a war with CDZ hopefully whilst they still have troops committed to a war with Merlot.

Let's keep in mind that the ETTT isn't supposed to last forever. It's original goal was to get us quickly to Astro in order to take out the two weakest links. After that all bets are off. We should be considering how The Continuum sees that next phase panning out.

Being the instigator of the culture bomb brigade I support the decision to get the GA. The way I see it playing out is once we have the Mavs under control we would be considering a war with CDZ hopefully whilst they still have troops committed to a war with Merlot.

As it is pertinent to debate and does get across what folks are thinking: I too am strongly thinking this is the long-term scenario for us, it's going to be against Mavs and then against CDZ as far as conflict goes.

However I am worried that MERLOT will simply fight AMAZON, so we might be in for a tough fight against CDZ, but I do see that as a likely outcome and am willing to take steps we decide may be necessarily to do that.

So again, I'm ok at least going for Music (and if things pan out you could even convince me to be on the cruel/Machiavellian bandwagon and sign onto culture-bombing as well :p)

Got this back from BCLG:

Can you give me a timestamp or something so I can search our email if we responded?

No-one seemed too keen to have feudalism iirc and we felt it was fine to choose the tech provided no-one else was researching it. We felt that researching Literature was a fairly good indication that we weren't researching Feudalism. Perhaps CDZ has been a bit lax on the communicating side and for that we apologise but we have (as a team) been universally busy in real life but we did research Machinery as indicated.

Finally, you are indeed mistaken, we have been researching it for 2 or 3 turns (perhaps even 4, i've been moving house/holiday so have only recently begun logging into the game again) now and expect completion in 5 turns. This seems to be quicker than your projected finish and would be a waste of beakers to switch otherwise, perhaps you should research feudalism or you could finish HBR?

Regards
BCLG100

And got this from Sommerswerd of the Amazons. I guess they are a tad bit annoyed:

We are teching Feudalism next. Our understanding is that CDZ and the Continuum are racing to get the Great Artist via Music. Why you are racing is unclear, but what is clear is that Sirius is teching Navigation and The AMAZON are teching Feudalism

Hmm looks like we have lost the music race, supposing they are telling the truth.

Although I thought we were checking and they just got literature this turn?

I think he is exaggerating since as far as I can tell they just got Literature on turn 91. I think they are very worried we will attempt Music so they want to make it seem like they are too far to be caught. So with that in mind I think we should go for it :D

Can someone do the research to bolster our diplomatic case? We need to answer BCLG's question about the date/time stamp on their Machinery statement. And we want to show how we have been forthright and following our declare path (did we publicly indicate we would work the top of the tree after Optics?).

I will also help look into this.

AMAZONs are smart guys obviously, they figured out what is up, we should perhaps have mentioned just lightbulbing the artist sooner but that's the way things go.

I too think they are lying and trying to discourage us from taking Music, but we'll double check just to be sure, don't think they are as far as they say. Continuing to go as fast as we can sounds like a good idea.

I think he is exaggerating since as far as I can tell they just got Literature on turn 91. I think they are very worried we will attempt Music so they want to make it seem like they are too far to be caught. So with that in mind I think we should go for it :D
I agree. Full steam ahead! :D

Can someone do the research to bolster our diplomatic case? We need to answer BCLG's question about the date/time stamp on their Machinery statement.
Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9357541&postcount=98) is a message from CDZ stating they're going MC (July 7).
Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9414856&postcount=124) is a message from CDZ stating they're going for Machinery (July 25).
Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9508870&postcount=33) is a message from CDZ stating they might go Feud (August 20).
Here (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9517609&postcount=32) is a message from Sirius to the ETTT with the assumed techline for each team (August 23).

And we want to show how we have been forthright and following our declare path (did we publicly indicate we would work the top of the tree after Optics?).
I could not find such a declaration from the ETTT, embassy, and strategy threads. :(

Yeah I couldn't find us publicly saying we'd go after the top of the tech tree, but then again, I don't think AMAZONs or Sirius really care either.

It seems confirmed CDZ couldn't have had Literature before turns 90-91, thus at most like 2 turns ahead of us and we definitely have better tech to go get Music first still.

I think someone (Galdarian) might have said we're going for the top of the tree on the team forum as we were planning out research when we first adopted the ETTT. Even if we did declare it, it would be of little use, as teams can't seem to remember what they've said they would research.

It seems the Amazon's don't care if we bomb CDZ, they just dont want us to bomb their new city near the core (see the Amazon embassy thread for their most recent message).

So I say we bomb CDZ! :D

Interesting. Now we wait for Sirius and CDZ to reply. I agree with bombing, unless Sirius and Amazon sympathize with any CDZ complaint.

Got this in our gmail:

Honored ETTT Allies,
We are all aware of the volatile situation faced by our enlightened alliance, so this letter will not engage in a re-hashing of the issue, but instead will propose a possible solution.
We all should see by now the the following four factors are obvious:
1. CDZ and Quatronia are each unhappy with the settlement arrangement on their shared landmass, one issue being, that both parties wish to possess Stone.
2. CDZ and Quatronia each find the other obtaining the Great Artist an untenable escalation of this 'Cold War.'
3. CDZ and Quatronia could each gain advantage over the other by enlisting the assistance of the M&M alliance, however, the entire ETTT is damaged by any co-operation with the M&M enemies.
4. CDZ and Quatronia would not trust each other to come up with a fair solution to this situation.
We Zenobians wish for peace and accord within our ETTT family, and accordingly, we humbly offer these solutions to the above problems.
1. In order to end this 'Cold War' and temporarily preserve the status quo, CDZ and Quatronia agree to stop building cities on the land between them for now until a settlement agreement is reached. In the meantime, we can all instead re-focus our efforts towards destroying the M&M enemies. In order to resolve the issue of the Stone, the AMAZON will immediately rush-settle near the Stone on Marthaton, and obtain the Stone in order to gift it to the party without Stone. This way both parties are assured a source of Stone, elimminating the need to conflict with each other over it.
2. CDZ and Quatronia agree not to tech towards Music any more, The AMAZON will take over teching Music, so that neither has to worry about the other using a culture bomb against them. By now it must be obvious to both of you that neither of you would trust the other with a culture bomb. We implore you both to re-direct you technological efforts, and we will tech Music for the alliance. We will use the Great Artist against the Merlot enemies, ensuring that neither of your cities are threatened by a culture bomb. This would require a tech switch for us, which we are currently voting on, but should the measure pass, we would switch tech immediately upon the Kleptocracy and the Continuum accepting this proposal.
3. CDZ, Quatronia and The AMAZON agree to declare war on Mavericks and Merlot, cancel all prior agreements with them, and to stop all communication with them for the rest of the game. It must be clear to all of us that M&M have no hope whatsoever against the ETTT, so long as we remain focused, and remain united in opposition to them. Any one of the ETTT members co-operating with M&M will inevitably bring M&M into technological parity with the rest of us and squander the advantage we have all worked so hard to build.
It must be equally clear that CDZ and Quatronia will not trust each other to refrain from seeking to gain advantage through co-operating with M&M so long as this 'Cold War' lasts. It is therefore imperative that we all declare war on M&M, so that there can be no doubt where we all stand, and there can be no alliance erroding, trust-undermining suspicion between us.
All of us know that the M&Ms are using their candy-coated sweetness to trick and lure us away from each other. They are attempting to play the alliance for fools, attempting to break us up by pitting us against each other. Friends, we implore you, do not be taken in by their silver-tongued deceptions. The ETTT has nothing to gain by breaking up. On the other hand the M&Ms have everything to gain by breaking us up. They also have nothing to lose, and can make too-good-to-be-true, pie-in-the-sky offers to any member willing to defect, because if one of us does not defect, they will lose, it is inevitable. Both of you must see this.
4. The AMAZON will serve as the binding arbitrator in the settlement agreement between CDZ and Quatronia. CDZ and Quatronia agree to accept the judgment of the AMAZON on the peaceful division of their shared landmass. As we have already stated, we will adjust our settlement plans and war efforts in order to quickly provide you with Stone. The other details of the settlement agreement can be discussed and agreed to once each of you has had an opportunity to present your needs, desires, concerns, and grievances to us. This process will be made easier by both parties halting all settlement of the shared landmass, and instead focusing on crowding out M&M. If we place the same effort on crowding out our enemies that have place on crowding out each other, we will defeat M&M quickly and easily.
Please friends, do not let the provacative designs of the wiley mapmaker fool you. The penninsulas are not intended to be shared evenly or equally. They are intended to cause conflict. They can only be shared through co-operation and trust. If you allow our friendship to unravel over this, if you continue racing to the culture bomb, you will have let the mapmaker defeat you, and defeat the ETTT. Do not allow this to happen.
Please accept our proposal without delay, so that our alliance may continue to move forward.
In eternal friendship,
The AMAZON

Hmmm.
It all looked acceptable, except for a couple bits, notably their desire to "arbitrate" the settling of our shared peninsula. I'm not really sure what we should say to Amazon about this.

It is imperative that we reply ASAP. I believe we want to maintain the alliance, and get ourselves a good one in the next stage, so we want to come off as the nice guys here, and look to genuinely solve the problem. So, a message:
Greetings to our fellow members of the ETTT. Quatronia wishes to strengthen the alliance and end this conflict, so we will agree to arbitration, and we welcome your efforts to help solve this problem.

First of all, in order to avoid further beaker wastage, we believe it would be better for either Quatronia or CDZ to finish music, and use the Great Artist to bulb. This would make up for lost beakers due to duplication. Quatronia is willing to finish music, but if CDZ doesn't trust us to that end, we are willing to allow CDZ to finish music.

The stone was never really an issue in our conflict, and we would loathe for the Amazon to put resources better served for destroying our enemies into providing us with stone, though if Amazon wishes to acquire stone anyways, then go ahead. Perhaps there can be deals made to temporarily gift stone or marble to each other once astronomy is researched and Quatronia has gotten a hold of some Maverickian marble.

Quatronia agrees not to build on the peninsula between us and CDZ- the next cities we expect to add to our empire have been generously built already by the Mavericks.

Quatronia would like to state that we have absolutely no intention of entertaining any offers made by the M&M alliance (we haven't talked to MERLOT since sinking their workboat). This is the only correspondence we've received (we got it last turns) from the Mavericks since they threatened our warrior scout:We have built up quite a large army and are in position to snipe off a city from Ragnar which is near you.

Would you be up for the possibility of gifting some techs for the city in a deal? We will shortly send a message turning down any such deal, even though it is that city that we believe is on our side of the line, so to speak. We apologize for not warning CDZ sooner, we are a small team and things have been hectic lately. Amazon should take note that this army will likely move by land (we can stop them by sea) and they might divert to raze the city you are planning to build. Quatronia has a non-aggression pact, signed before we'd met Amazon or Sirius, with the Mavericks that expires in 5 turns. We will declare war on them if the rest of the alliance feels it necessary, but we'd rather just wait it out another 5 turns. If CDZ is threatened before that time, Quatronia will not hesitate to do what we can to aid in their defense, whether by land or sea.
The goal of this message is to make us seem more a responsible, just nation, and if CDZ send out a negative reply, they will look very bad in comparison. We're looking at beyond the ETTT here, we need to be able to make a viable alliance with probably Sirius or Amazon. Hence the "don't worry about the stone".
Also, would we be willing to trust CDZ to bulb now that the idea is out there? We couldn't just volunteer ourselves but not trust them to do the same.

We should send this, and Amazon's message, to Sirius, to keep them apprised of events.

One last thing- I looked through the embassy, and the NAP was signed for 50 turns around turn 45 or 46. With CDZ, we made it last to T100, but not the Mavericks.

I think that we are offering too much detail in that message. Particularly copying the full message received from Mavs. I think we could back it of a tad and still come off looking like the co-operative one. Keep in mind that the message that Amazons sent was to all members of the ETTT. THings that they address in their message are perhaps applicable to CDZ only.


Greetings to our fellow members of the ETTT. Quatronia wishes to strengthen the alliance and end this conflict, so we will agree to arbitration, and we welcome your efforts to help solve this problem.

First of all, in order to avoid further beaker wastage, we believe it would be better for either Quatronia or CDZ to finish music, and use the Great Artist to bulb. This would make up for lost beakers due to duplication. It would be most sensible for the team with the most beakers currently invested in Music to complete it. We currently have X and would complete it in X turns.

The stone was never an issue in our conflict, and we would loathe for the Amazon to put resources better served for destroying our enemies into providing us with stone. Our only use for stone for the foreseeable future is to build Maoi Statues, beyond that it is not a resource the Continuum requires. Perhaps there can be deals made to temporarily gift stone to that end.

Quatronia has no further plans to settle the shared peninsular. The next cities we expect to add to our empire have already been generously built by the Mavericks.

Quatronia would like to state that we have absolutely no intention of entertaining any offers made by the M&M alliance and have not had any contact with MERLOT since sinking their workboat. We have received infrequent correspondence from Team Maverick the last of which arrived last turn. Most of the messages have requested trade however the most recent also constituted a threat. The Continuum has no interest in pursuing an agreement with the Maverick empire as we are preparing to remove their nation from the map.

We will shortly send a message rejecting their offer. We do know that they have amassed an army but we have yet to ascertain their exact numbers and make up. Quatronia has a non-aggression pact, signed before we'd met Amazon or Sirius, with the Mavericks that expires in 5 turns. We will declare war on them if the rest of the alliance feels it necessary, however we'd rather just wait until the opportune moment which we anticipate to be ~10 turns. If CDZ, or any other member of the ETT, is threatened before that time Quatronia will not hesitate to do what we can to aid in their defense, whether by land or sea.


I think this still gets our sentiments across without being overly detailed. We don't need to spell out the fact that we think ereh rO is our city. You just have to look at the map to see that it should be swapped for the city we just settled. As I currently can not log into the game, would someone please find out the figures for Music?

Whatever the outcome we need to get an army up and quick.

Where the heck did they get the idea that Stone is a problem? I have a feeling AMAZONs are rather misled by CDZ claiming stuff that we never said, again as they said about teching Feudalism. clearly CDZ must have claimed "The Continuum are all raging about Stone" or whatever.

Still looking over other messages, will edit this post though. AMAZON's efforts are greatly appreciated nonetheless.

So... I really like galdarian's revision more, it clarifies the thing about stone, and I agree AMAZONs rushing to get stone doesn't even make sense, they've been really misled by CDZ. I agree with the reworded bulb proposal (and wish we'd said that earlier, again, but hey no more Cassandra'ing from me, I'll reserve that for other CFC games)

We should change "we will shortly send" to just "we shortly sent" - past tense and imply the Maverick "deal" they offered is closed and settled. I should edit my post on the other page to account for this.

Words are one thing but a Great Artist is so much more...

I suggest we follow Teddy Roosevelt's advice and speak softly while carrying a big stick. The Amazons aren't being as altruistic as they are trying to come across as. They could have offered the bulb suggestion but instead they want the Artist for themselves. The stone suggestion is out of left field as well. They obviously have their own agenda and want to use our discord with CDZ to forward it. We don't need them as arbiters or peacemakers and I don't see why its necessary to reply first to their proposal. Let's get the Artist first and then show our benevolence... as long as CDZ does what we want ;)

Oh, well I'd still keep our tech on Music this turn and probably next, though if that does continue and we do get it I'd still rather pop the artist for a bulb perhaps and inform our allies of that ahead of time.

I think AMAZONs are genuinely trying to help though. True, if they did get it, they might spend the artist on their own city somewhere/a golden age but I don't think they are being greedy here. What I do think happened is CDZ gave some serious lies about the motivations of players involved, the concerns they have cited have never been discussed between us, so AMAZONs may think the argument is over something it isn't and that's why they proposed what they did.

Hmm... I dont have the full picture but i highly doubt the AMAZONs are fully benevolent. Cav Scout has their number here. The fun part is figuring out what they really want. Also, why not offer to trade Mavericks for the city, and then after they have captured it just take it? Or are we the good guys?

I don't think the Amazons will use the GA for anything other from what they've said, too much is at stake. They are just assuming that neither us nor CDZ can trust each other with CDZ, and they are the only ones in a position to actually harm our enemies with it.
The message actually doesn't agree to most of Amazon's proposals (declaring war and not getting music), but clears up any misconceptions and makes it seem like we're agreeing to everything they said.

While I agree that it's possible the Amazons are trying to forward their own agenda however I'm not seeing what they gain out of this deal. Admittedly culture bombing the middle city that they've settled would make sense.

Hmmm, I'm mixed. Do we think that the ETTT would dissolve because of this? If not, Procrastinating about it can't hurt our position.

Hmmm a delicate situation.

The "stone dispute" is out of nowhere.

We publically announced teching music first.

I dunno how the Amazons could mediate this; all they can really say is "split it down the middle." I think we should still get music; no sense for the Amazons to waste even more beakers researching it. If we wanted to, we could threaten CDZ with a culture bomb if they don't agree to trading cities with us. Of course, this would not put is in a good light.

A lot of random in this post... not too sure how to organize my thoughts. :p

Also, why not offer to trade Mavericks for the city, and then after they have captured it just take it?
Anything we do to help the mavericks hurts the ETTT. But I do think we all would be on board of "liberating" any CDZ cities they unlikely capture... :evil:

Hmmm a delicate situation.

The "stone dispute" is out of nowhere.

We publically announced teching music first.


I would agree with both of these - I think CDZ has been deliberately lying to other teams about this issue, saying "concerns" or "debates" exist where none really did.

I don't care who gets the GA and if we got it I would be ok just bulbing/settling/other neutral use of it. So long as CDZ does not get it, that's the end of the line for me, but I understand if the team feels we deserve to get more in all fairness.

Keeping the ETTT together and starting wars with Mavs and MERLOT sounds like the best idea to me right now - it will quickly distract attention form any more backstabs or problems, and we are in position to make actual gains ourselves on own merit as we conquer Mavs. CDZ will fall wherever they may against MERLOT and so on and we'll eventually be able to handle any threat they'd represent for sure.

The stone thing isn't necessarily out of nowhere- they may have taken our founding of Asymptote as an aggressive response to Spamville.
Are we good to send Galdarian's message then? I like it, and it should help calm Amazon down, and we do need to warn CDZ, so probably something more specific for them, to show our good nature. (That's why I included the message.)

Eh it's a little late to warn CDZ. We got that message awhile ago so it might look bad to tell them now. If we get pressed later, we can always say "We thought it was a bluff."

As much as I'd like to culture bomb CDZ, I can see Earthling's point about keeping the ETTT together.

My goodness on those latest screenshots - don't think I've ever seen a techbar so close on how many turns it is. I mean, looking at the tech bar by eye it would seem as if we were just one beaker off and then we wouldn't have music in 3 turns.

Note our treasury seems like it will only hold out for 2 turns so on the micro we do need to make sure we do things right on the last turn, if we have to bump another city to work coastal tiles or something.

And of course I wouldn't back off from Music yet- still don't have a clear answer from either CDZ or AMAZON and regardless we're just 2 more turns away. So sure, let CDZ turn off their tech or whatever, we'll be fine.

I might entertain us using the GA for a golden age now that I think about it - I personally still feel the culture bomb would cause too much trouble but we'll see what comes.

I'm surprised Amazon hasn't pressed for an answer. If they do, then we can send our message, otherwise we can wait until we've bulbed/ golden aged to show our goodwill. We could consider sending CDZ a message saying if ereh rO is under threat to tell us so we can help defend it.

We may need to draft a new message for post music race once we have the GA.

Someone just gifted CDZ some more gold... over 100:gold:

If we get the artist I say we move him to Pulsar Plateau and ask CDZ again if they want to trade cities.

This is not good. We should at least send a message to Amazon clarifying things, who knows what CDZ have told them. We should still win the race though-we might just have to build wealth/research in Quatron for one turn.

EDIT: We just got this. We should probably send something to show our side, though we don't want to get dragged down in petty arguments.To the members of the ETTT,

As everyone is aware a problem has developed on the peninsula between Quatronia and CDZ. The Amazon nation has graciously taken time to propose some solutions and we at the CDZ welcome their efforts to bring about a resolution to the current situation. However, we must stress that, barring divine intervention, any and all decisions regarding the welfare of the CDZ Kleptocracy will be made by its citizens. Thus any form, other than said divine intervention, of binding judgement by a third party will not be acceptable.

While the CDZ accept the general direction of Amazon’s proposal is a positive one we feel that the history of the matter is important to consider, as only when the situation is viewed in context will we find a long lasting solution that acceptable to everyone.

The facts of the matter are we settled two cities on the peninsula in question, Spamville and Or here before Quatronia has any cities. Both of these are on the half of the peninsula closest to our island. We had planned a third city between the two and then to move on to the other peninsula.

However Quatronia decided to aggressively settle next to Spamville with the cities of Resonance and Asymptote. The usefulness of either of these cities apart from culturally crowding Spamville is marginal at best. Quatronia specifically ignored settling better land that was closer to them, clearly instigating the current situation between two teams that should be behaving as allies, by settling extremely agressively towards one of our cities.

Now it is important to note that up to this point at no time had Quatronia sought to discuss the settlement of our common peninsula, nor did they ever express disappointment at not having the stone. They never asked if we would be willing to come to any arrangements with regards to trading the stone to them. All of these actions which one would expect from an ally were never explored by them. So in response to their aggressive settling against Spamville we settled ereh rO, Quatronia then settled Pulsar Plateau.

It was only sometime after this that they came to us and ridiculously demanded we exchanged ereh rO for a settler they would gift us in return, because ereh Or was "in their sphere of influence", whilst grossly overlooking the fact that the first city they settled on the peninsula was "in CDZ's sphere of influence". This we found inadequate compensation for our city so they went ahead and settled Cygous. And now there is the further matter of researching Music, which Quatronia decided to research after we announced we are doing it.

When looking back through the event from the beginning we believe it is clear that it was never Quatronia’s intention to negotiate or find some agreement, their intention was to take whatever they could, however they could. Overall this can only be viewed as appalling behaviour towards a nation that is its ally. If a solution is to be found then it must take into account Quatronia’s role in instigating and the exacerbating the problem we have on our hands today.


After the conclusion of this unfortunate, Quattronia-instigated incident, we hope to continue our positive contribution to the ETTT, and collectively work towards a positive conclusion of the pacification of all non-ETTT civilizations in the world.

Best regards,
The Citizens of the CDZ Kleptocracy

Someone just gifted CDZ some more gold... over 100:gold:

If we get the artist I say we move him to Pulsar Plateau and ask CDZ again if they want to trade cities.
Do we have a screenie? Can we work out who it is? This would serve us well to know particularly if it's Merlot.

While I'm at it I've just been looking at the Diplo screenie's from the last few turns. Why would Construction move from "Can Research" to "Wants" for both Merlot and Mavs?

The message doesn't paint a pretty picture for Team Q. We are sure looking like the bad guy here at the moment and if we stay silent just to get the GA it's going to get a whole lot worse. We need to do the research and refute every single claim that CDZ have tabled...

Assuming that we can of course?

I agree that we need to move fast in a response. I have jotted something down- by no means do I think it perfect nor complete. But it's a start.

Greeting to our allies, the members of the ETTT,

Recently, the integrity of the Continuum has come under siege by CDZ. Quatronia feels the need to right a number of wrongs presented in CDZ's letter.

However Quatronia decided to aggressively settle next to Spamville with the cities of Resonance and Asymptote. The usefulness of either of these cities apart from culturally crowding Spamville is marginal at best. Quatronia specifically ignored settling better land that was closer to them, clearly instigating the current situation between two teams that should be behaving as allies, by settling extremely agressively towards one of our cities.
We did not settle aggressively settle towards Spamville. Asymptote grants us control of the cape and has three resources within its borders. Resonance has even greater terrain. Both of these cities were planned settlements before the first city was even settled on the petal. Two great cities, one very strategic- hardly aggressive, hardly marginal at all.

Now it is important to note that up to this point at no time had Quatronia sought to discuss the settlement of our common peninsula... So in response to their aggressive settling against Spamville we settled ereh rO, Quatronia then settled Pulsar Plateau.
We were in the process of writing a message regarding splitting the petal. Then CDZ settled ereh rO. This was a clear encroachment on our territory. Look across the sea from ereh rO, and what does one see? Continuum. We believe CDZ would be similarly upset should we have had settled Or here first. A very nice city in your first-ring location, snatched up by a greedy ally? This is behavior unbecoming of an ally.

...nor did they ever express disappointment at not having the stone. They never asked if we would be willing to come to any arrangements with regards to trading the stone to them. All of these actions which one would expect from an ally were never explored by them.
We never once mentioned stone, nor do we care about it. We aren't sure why this was included in the original- hopefully it wasn't outside speculation added in. Quatronia does not care about the stone.

It was only sometime after this that they came to us and ridiculously demanded we exchanged ereh rO for a settler they would gift us in return...
We offered to trade a city for a city- ereh rO for a settler. This would be a fair way to resolve the situation- we get what should be ours and CDZ can settle another city on their side. Surely if this was ridiculous, we would get a counteroffer? CDZ's reply was hardly friendly, nor did it contain any hint of a counteroffer.

...because ereh Or was "in their sphere of influence", whilst grossly overlooking the fact that the first city they settled on the peninsula was "in CDZ's sphere of influence". This we found inadequate compensation for our city so they went ahead and settled Cygous.
Both Resonance and Asymptote are not in CDZ's sphere of influence. Cygous clearly is, but neither our first nor our second cities are. CDZ never proposed a counteroffer. We founded Cygous: CDZ has one city in our territory, Quatronia shall have one in theirs.

And now there is the further matter of researching Music, which Quatronia decided to research after we announced we are doing it.
Wrong. We sent a message to the ETTT announcing we were researching music. Only then did CDZ come forth and state they were doing the same.

When looking back through the event from the beginning we believe it is clear that it was never Quatronia’s intention to negotiate or find some agreement, their intention was to take whatever they could, however they could. Overall this can only be viewed as appalling behaviour towards a nation that is its ally. If a solution is to be found then it must take into account Quatronia’s role in instigating and the exacerbating the problem we have on our hands today.
Quatronia has done nothing but want to find agreement and compromise. It was CDZ who decided to disregard their ally's territory and settle there anyway. It was CDZ who never announced their tech path, and only mentioned music after we did. CDZ accuses Quatronia of "crimes" that only CDZ itself has committed.

Quatronia must know whether the Amazons or Sirius have been gifting gold to CDZ, so that CDZ may continue 100% research. If neither of our ETTT partners are the gifters, then we know that CDZ must be collecting money from either the mavericks or Merlot. What sort of deal they have arranged can only be speculated.

The Continuum wishes to get past this distasteful part of throwing mud on our allies. Quatronia, however, will defend itself from anyone, friend or foe. Let us get the ETTT back on track and move on to rid the world of both the mavericks and Merlot. Glory to CDZ. Glory to the Amazons, Glory to Sirius.

Glory to the ETTT!

-The Continuum

Please offer any critiques/butcherings. ;)

While I'm at it I've just been looking at the Diplo screenie's from the last few turns. Why would Construction move from "Can Research" to "Wants" for both Merlot and Mavs?
Perhaps one of them researched a prerequisite and then traded it between each other? Could be a CDZ gift, but it wouldn't be number one on my list of reasons.

We could point out that if we were really being aggressive we could have founded Asymptote 2E and stolen the southern clams from Spamville. We stayed on our side of the peninsula though.

We need to be VERY careful about the tone of any message we send. The reception of the message and how it is perceived will set the course for the rest of our game. No matter how we play it, if it is perceived that we are lying / squirming / accusing / spinning or any other negative connotation then we may have a very uphill battle on our hands.

With that in mind I shall attempt to strengthen RegentMan's message...

Greeting to our allies, the members of the ETTT,

It appears that the integrity of the Continuum has come under question. Quatronia feels the need to clarify a number of misrepresentations in CDZ's letter.

However Quatronia decided to aggressively settle next to Spamville with the cities of Resonance and Asymptote. The usefulness of either of these cities apart from culturally crowding Spamville is marginal at best. Quatronia specifically ignored settling better land that was closer to them, clearly instigating the current situation between two teams that should be behaving as allies, by settling extremely aggressively towards one of our cities.

The Continuum disagrees with CDZ's assessment of our cities, Resonance & Asymptote. They are not aggressive settlements nor are they 'marginally useful' and only serve to crowd Spamville. Asymptote was originally known as 'Cape City' to the Continuum. It's settlement has been planned for centuries. It grants our empire with two resources within its borders. Resonance's was our original 'Asymptote' site. Due to production priorities we were unable to settle it prior to Spamville and had to move it north. The Continuum can provide records of these plans dating back to 1920BC (Turn 52). This is all prior to CDZ settling Spamville in 1560BC (Turn 61).

Now it is important to note that up to this point at no time had Quatronia sought to discuss the settlement of our common peninsula... So in response to their aggressive settling against Spamville we settled ereh rO, Quatronia then settled Pulsar Plateau.

Admitedly, The Continuum had not yet discussed these matters with CDZ, however we were in the process of writing a message regarding splitting the petal. It was at this point CDZ settled ereh rO. Quatronia remains shocked at this move. As you put it yourselves, ereh rO is a 'response', a retaliation to Quatronia's expansion. It's a clear encroachment on our territory as it is quite a distance from the CDZ capital. I would imagine that the citizens have asked at least once to join the The Continuum because when they look across the sea from ereh rO, they see our capital, Continuum! We believe CDZ would be similarly confused should Quatornia have settled "Or here" first. A cheap, productive city in your first-ring location. Has the location been snatched up by a greedy ally?

...nor did they ever express disappointment at not having the stone. They never asked if we would be willing to come to any arrangements with regards to trading the stone to them. All of these actions which one would expect from an ally were never explored by them.

On this point The Continuum feels there is some agreement. We never once mentioned stone, nor does The Continuum require it. We aren't sure why this was included in the original- hopefully it wasn't outside speculation added in. Quatronia does not need the stone.

It was only sometime after this that they came to us and ridiculously demanded we exchanged ereh rO for a settler they would gift us in return...

Quatronia rejects the accusation that we 'Demanded' an exchange. We offered to trade a city for a city- ereh rO for a settler. The Continuum felt it would be a fair way to resolve the situation. Surely if this was ridiculous, we would get a counteroffer? CDZ's reply was hardly friendly, more a dismissal, nor did it contain any hint of a counteroffer.

...because ereh Or was "in their sphere of influence", whilst grossly overlooking the fact that the first city they settled on the peninsula was "in CDZ's sphere of influence". This we found inadequate compensation for our city so they went ahead and settled Cygous.

Clearly our definition of 'sphere of influence' differs. Both Resonance and Asymptote are not in CDZ's sphere of influence. Cygous clearly is, but neither our first nor our second cities.

And now there is the further matter of researching Music, which Quatronia decided to research after we announced we are doing it.

Quatronia does not agree with your judgement. We sent a message to the ETTT announcing we were researching music. Only then did CDZ come forth and state they were doing the same. The previous official message regarding research had CDZ researching Feudalism. The Continuum doesn't recall when the secrets of Feudalism were discovered.

When looking back through the event from the beginning we believe it is clear that it was never Quatronia’s intention to negotiate or find some agreement, their intention was to take whatever they could, however they could. Overall this can only be viewed as appalling behaviour towards a nation that is its ally. If a solution is to be found then it must take into account Quatronia’s role in instigating and the exacerbating the problem we have on our hands today.

Quatronia wants to find agreement and compromise. It is CDZ who decided to disregard an ally's territory and settle. It is CDZ who never announced their tech path, and only mentioned music after we did. CDZ accuses Quatronia of "crimes" that only CDZ itself has committed.

The Continuum, and the members of the ETTT wish to know whether the Amazons or Sirius have been filling CDZ's coffers with gold. Maintenance of the CDZ empire, with a city so far from it's capital, must be killing it's economy. Presumably this gold is required so that CDZ can continue it's research.
If neither of our ETTT partners are the source of these funds, then the ETTT requires an answer from CDZ. In this open forum we ask that CDZ declare it's funding and ease all concerned.

The Continuum wishes to clarify to our allies that we value the mutual agreements enshirned in the ETTT. Quatronia will always act in the best interests of her people. Let us move beyond this finger pointing and get the ETTT back on track. Let us focus on the common goal; to rid the world of both the Mavericks and Merlot. Glory to CDZ. Glory to the Amazons, Glory to Sirius.

Glory to the ETTT!

-The Continuum

I'm not much a fan of the whole "Glory to the" bit at the end. Sounds naf.
We do have screenshots that date back to Turn 52 which can support our (original) positioning for Asymptote and Resonance if we think it relevant to include it although we may want to check the rules about that first. I don't think it's a problem to provide.

Good idea about screenshots, it is legal to trade them after paper.

I think we should declare we will bulb. We need to show our allies we are firmly on their side, to prevent the ETTT from fracturing (though that is unlikely) and to get good standing for alliances beyond the ETTT. We should also address Amazon a bit. So here are my revisions:
Greeting to our allies, the members of the ETTT,

Quatronia would like to thank Amazon for their efforts to solve the problems our alliance is facing, will work together with our allies to ensure our efforts remain united against our enemies. However, it appears that the integrity of the Continuum has come under question. Quatronia feels the need to clarify a number of misrepresentations in CDZ's letter, so that we can move forward.

However Quatronia decided to aggressively settle next to Spamville with the cities of Resonance and Asymptote. The usefulness of either of these cities apart from culturally crowding Spamville is marginal at best. Quatronia specifically ignored settling better land that was closer to them, clearly instigating the current situation between two teams that should be behaving as allies, by settling extremely aggressively towards one of our cities.
The Continuum disagrees with CDZ's assessment of our cities, Resonance & Asymptote. They are not aggressive settlements nor are they 'marginally useful' and only serve to crowd Spamville. Asymptote was originally known as 'Cape City' to the Continuum. It's settlement has been planned for centuries. It grants our empire with two resources within its borders. Resonance's was originally planned further south, but due to production priorities we were unable to settle it prior to Spamville and had to move it north, though it is still a fine city spot. In fact it has the highest population on the peninsula. The Continuum can provide records of these plans dating back to 1920BC (Turn 52). This is all prior to CDZ settling Spamville in 1560BC (Turn 61). We apologize if you saw these moves as aggressive, it is unfortunate that you did not send us any messages to inform us of that.


Now it is important to note that up to this point at no time had Quatronia sought to discuss the settlement of our common peninsula... So in response to their aggressive settling against Spamville we settled ereh rO, Quatronia then settled Pulsar Plateau.
Admitedly, The Continuum had not yet discussed these matters with CDZ, however we were in the process of writing a message regarding splitting the petal. It was at this point CDZ settled ereh rO. Quatronia remains shocked at this move. As you put it yourselves, ereh rO is a 'response', a retaliation to Quatronia's expansion. It's a clear encroachment on our territory as it is quite a distance from the CDZ capital. I would imagine that the citizens have asked at least once to join the The Continuum because when they look across the sea from ereh rO, they see our capital, Continuum! We believe CDZ would be similarly confused should Quatronia have settled "Or here" first. A cheap, productive city in your first-ring location. Has the location been snatched up by a greedy ally?

...nor did they ever express disappointment at not having the stone. They never asked if we would be willing to come to any arrangements with regards to trading the stone to them. All of these actions which one would expect from an ally were never explored by them.
On this point The Continuum feels there is some agreement. We never once mentioned stone, nor does The Continuum require it. We aren't sure why this was included in the original- hopefully it wasn't outside speculation added in. Quatronia does not need the stone, though we would be open to perhaps borrowing it one day for Moai in a fair exchange.


It was only sometime after this that they came to us and ridiculously demanded we exchanged ereh rO for a settler they would gift us in return...
Quatronia rejects the accusation that we 'Demanded' an exchange. We offered to trade a city for a city- ereh rO for a settler. The Continuum felt it would be a fair way to resolve the situation. Surely if this was ridiculous, we would get a counteroffer? CDZ's reply was hardly friendly, more a dismissal, nor did it contain any hint of a counteroffer.


...because ereh Or was "in their sphere of influence", whilst grossly overlooking the fact that the first city they settled on the peninsula was "in CDZ's sphere of influence". This we found inadequate compensation for our city so they went ahead and settled Cygous.
Clearly our definition of 'sphere of influence' differs. Both Resonance and Asymptote are not in CDZ's sphere of influence. Cygnus clearly is, but neither our first nor our second cities.

And now there is the further matter of researching Music, which Quatronia decided to research after we announced we are doing it.
Quatronia does not agree with your judgement. We sent a message to the ETTT announcing we were researching music. Only then did CDZ come forth and state they were doing the same. The previous official message regarding research had CDZ researching Feudalism. The Continuum doesn't recall when the secrets of Feudalism were discovered.


When looking back through the event from the beginning we believe it is clear that it was never Quatronia’s intention to negotiate or find some agreement, their intention was to take whatever they could, however they could. Overall this can only be viewed as appalling behaviour towards a nation that is its ally. If a solution is to be found then it must take into account Quatronia’s role in instigating and the exacerbating the problem we have on our hands today.
Quatronia wants to find agreement and compromise. It is CDZ who decided to disregard an ally's territory and settle. It is CDZ who never announced their tech path, and only mentioned music after we did. CDZ accuses Quatronia of "crimes" that only CDZ itself has committed.

The Continuum, and the members of the ETTT wish to know whether the Amazons or Sirius have been filling CDZ's coffers with gold. Presumably this gold is required so that CDZ can continue it's research. While Quatronia does not wish to poke its nose into dealings between allies, we are concerned about the motives of these deals, so please relieve our concern with the explanation of what we hope to be legitimate deals.

Now that we have cleared up any misconceptions, let us get back on the path to cooperation and M&M devouring. Since actions speak louder than words, Quatronia will use the Great Artist to bulb, which will benefit the whole ETTT, and make up for lost beakers. As for the Mavericks, we will declare war on them when our non-aggression pact ends, on turn 95. If CDZ comes under threat from them, before or after that time, we will not hesitate to come to your defense, so please let us know if you have any Maverick problems. We know they have amassed an army, we're just not sure where it is- so Amazon be on the lookout too, with your central city.

The Continuum wishes to clarify to our allies that we value the mutual agreements enshrined in the ETTT. Quatronia will always act in the best interests of her people. Let us move beyond this finger pointing and get the ETTT back on track. Let us focus on the common goal; to rid the world of both the Mavericks and Merlot. Glory to CDZ. Glory to the Amazons, Glory to Sirius.

Glory to the ETTT!

-The Continuum
Main points- clarified the explanation of Resonance, it didn't make much sense to an outsider
-softened the request for an explanation of the gold gifts, there is no need to accuse them of dealing with M&M- if neither Sirius or Amazon are responsible, then the $%!# will hit the fan anyways
-declaring intention to bulb and discussing Maverick military matters demonstrate our commitment more solidly than vague reassurances

Perhaps it should say "Quatronia intends to bulb the GA for Philosopy" suggesting that this was our intention any way.
It would bulb Philo after Drama wouldn't it? Are there any members of the ETTT whom do not yet have a religion?

That was worth looking up. It would go drama (which we should finish first), then philosophy CDZ doesn't have a religion of their own- they have Buddhism in ereh rO though. I think Amazon had planned on philosophy though, and CDZ didn't challenge them, so it should be ok. We'll get missionaries at any rate, we can gift them.

EDIT!: First, it will in fact go to divine right after drama, which would be interesting (and that is a lot of beakers- I don't know how to determine if it will actually complete it). Second, I have yet another revision about the gold gifts:
We have attached several screenshots showing the finances of all the teams over the last few turns. Could CDZ please explain the reason for their sudden (mid-turn) gold increase, and Merlot's decrease in gold? Short and to the point. I will send the revised message by 22:00 GMT, as we need to defend our integrity and get to the bottom of CDZ's dealings. If you have any issues or revisions, please post. One issue I can think of is that we might want to get to the bottom of the CDZ gold before discussing anything else, but I don't think anything in the message is too revealing.

Revised looks good to me. I would tweak one paragraph, just for clarity's sake.

Admitedly, The Continuum had not yet discussed these matters with CDZ, however we were in the process of writing a message regarding splitting the petal. It was at this point CDZ settled ereh rO. Quatronia remains shocked at this move. As you put it yourselves, ereh rO is a 'response', a retaliation to Quatronia's expansion. It's a clear encroachment on our territory as it is quite a distance from the CDZ capital. I would imagine that the citizens of ereh rO have asked at least once to join the The Continuum because when they look across the sea, they see our capital, Continuum! We believe CDZ would be similarly confused should Quatronia have settled "Or here" first. A cheap, productive city in your first-ring location, snatched up by a greedy ally? Of course this would be cause for strife.

I believe when we first made contact with CDZ we proposed discussing land settling - way before the ETTT or anything (before we had contact with other civilizations), but we did that once or twice, and they never answered.

Still reading over the message, looking good though.

I love the line "don't recall when the secrets of Feudalism were discovered"

I strongly encourage the revision/mention of what Charlemagne mentioned about gold gifts (and we have the screens in the other thread, that's fine). Both because I really doubt any other ETTT team did this and because it puts pressure on CDZ.

Edit: for the record, looking through old messages, we didn't really propose to discuss settling arrangements - perhaps we could have but didn't. It's still equally true though we never once complained about the stone so we should make clear that's a non-issue/never was a threat from us or anything.

If CDZ is being gifted gold by someone else I really wonder about the consequences of that. Surely if we get the Artist then I wouldn't use it on bulbing, we'd either culture bomb or golden age it I guess but I don't want conflict with both CDZ and Mavericks either.

Considering that it's now an issue for Amazon and by extension Sirius I don't think that rocking the apple cart is a good idea. We should be open to considering their opinion. If they aren't to fussed about how we use the GA then a culture bomb for sure.

Sent! I included all revisions and changed the time of our NAP to "in a couple of turns" (we want to make sure CDZ doesn't stab us in the back before DoWing)

Now that we've made the gesture of planning to bulb, we can probably discuss it further with the ETTT once we actually have the artist- halfway to divine right isn't really all that useful.

The GA can be good leverage so saying we are going to bulb takes an ace out of our hand. Even if we don't bomb with him we should still keep him around as a thinly veiled threat.

Well here's how I would break things down:

Settle the Artist - no, pointless
Bulb - helps our allies as a whole, but really only useful from a diplomacy perspective, to placate our allies
Bomb CDZ - gives decent returns in the long run if CDZ doesn't fight back - but the likelihood of the latter and hurting the alliance is pretty high
Golden Age - solid returns both in the short term and the long term if it gives us an edge on more military/settling/etc... and saves us from wasting another GP sometime, as it is true we aren't pumping out that many. Probably not the most pleasing thing for our allies to hear either though. But if we have another point of contention (say, CDZ dealing with MERLOT) then we could complain they've broken agreements and we might as well use the Artist for ourselves or something like that.

I think Amazon or Sirius would be okay wit a golden age if we said that bulbing would only get us half of divine right (I don't think it would be best for the ETTT for us to finish the other half). But right now, it's just a gesture that we can change our minds on publicly later if we give everyone enough warning.

Also, is it possible to propose an in-game offer wit CDZ to declare war on Mavericks if they DoW Merlot and Mavs? Otherwise, I wouldn't really trust them- I don't want to declare war on Mavericks and discover CDZ is against us too.

There is now a response from Team Amazon

Honorable ETTT Allies:

We Zenobians welcome the recent messages from both the Kleptocracy and the Continuum. We are heartened to see both teams showing a good-faith commitment to resolving this dispute peacefully to the benefit of the ETTT. The goal of this letter is to establish a universally accepted starting point for the settlement of this matter.

We cannot hope to establish a starting point for negotiations if the status-quo is in flux. Therefore, as a preliminary matter, we ask both teams to agree that there will be no settlement on the shared landmass until a settlement agreement is reached. As the Matriarchal Alliance has not named this landmass, we will be referring to the Continuum-Kleptocracy shared landmass as “Hoag” (the name Sirius has given it) for the purposes of this letter.

We understand and recognize that both teams have legitimate concerns, and before addressing these, we would like to remind our allies that the map is designed in such a manner as to encourage conflict. We will continue to reiterate this point throughout the negotiations, when it bears on the issue being discussed.

We see two issues with the status quo… a very dense city placement with lots of potential cultural overlap, and cities that cross into each team's "sphere of influence." While the cities are packed in tightly, most cities appear to be viable so long as both teams maintain cultural parity. At this point, both teams should see the value of adopting an agreement that limits further cultural competition.

We feel that the harder issue to resolve is the concern about "spheres of influence." There are many potential solutions, but this will involve delicate, possibly-lengthy, negotiations and discourse. During this time, we anticipate that settlement of other areas of the map will be a necessity, however we repeat that further settlement of Hoag will only serve to disrupt the status quo and further complicate negotiations. So again, we respectfully request that both the Continuum and the Kleptocracy openly commit to cease all settlement of Hoag, until an agreement is reached.

We have already discussed some possible settlement agreements, but introducing these suggestions would be unproductive, without general agreement among the parties as to the starting point of the negotiations. Again, that is the goal of this letter, to reach that mutually agreed starting point, so that everyone is on the same page.

So while we feel that resolving this dispute cannot be accomplished by looking to the past, it has become clear from recent correspondence, that both sides wish to address the events leading up to the present dilemma. It seems that in order to reach a mutually agreed starting point for negotiations, it is necessary to first establish an objective “score” of the situation thus far.

Our approach therefore, will be to present the parties with our objective analysis of the record as we have it. In reaching our conclusions, we have taken into account the parties’ correspondences, as well as the attending circumstances, and applied logic and reasoning to trace the roots and causes of this dispute. We expect that as with the findings of any impartial arbitrator, both parties will agree with some of what we have to say, and disagree with some of what we have to say, but that is the purpose of this letter, to flesh out the relevant sources of disagreement and discard the irrelevant ones.

We seek only to present our objective findings, to determine what facts can be agreed upon, what facts need further discussion or clarification, and what facts are irrelevant or hopelessly at impasse and therefore must be put aside. Once we have established what can be agreed upon, we will have our starting point, and will then be able to move on to fruitful suggestions for a settlement agreement, based on that common ground and common understanding.

We will address the history of this dispute in a loose timeline form:

1. 'Spamville' and 'Or Here' are perfectly legitimate cities, being located on CDZ's "side" of Hoag, especially since at least one, if not both, were founded before CDZ entered the ETTT.

2. Resonance is a legitimate city, even without access to the Stone, however, the fact that the one of the 3 tiles of cultural conflict is the tile containing the Stone is slightly provocative, and warranted at least some warning or minimal attempts at discussion prior to founding. The deciding factor is whether CDZ was in the ETTT when Resonance was founded. If yes, then Resonance is legitimate but slightly provocative. If no, then Resonance is completely legitimate. When Resonance was planned is not really relevant, unless those plans were communicated to CDZ.

3. Asymptote is a poorly placed, but completely legitimate city, as it has no major cultural conflict with Spamville, and does not ‘threaten the Stone’ as CDZ suggests. Asymptote is on Quatronia's 'side' of Hoag and claims two seafood resources as well as using an Oasis. Assymptote does steal the Oasis from Spamville, however, the Oasis is not Spamville’s primary food source, the Clam is. And this is where the intentionally conflict-inducing map comes into play. The oasis at the tip of the spire is clearly intended to induce settlement to obtain the Whale.

So in that sense, the oasis ‘belongs’ to the Whale City, not the Stone city. The whole point of the oasis is to make the Whale city viable. On the other hand, a city founded to claim the Whale will unavoidable extend its culture onto the other teams ‘side’ of Hoag, and since there is only one Whale and one Stone, any city founded in the spire will feel provocative, but this has more to do with the map design, and less to do with any ill intentions. The other cultural conflicts with Assymptote are on marginal plains tiles and can hardly be considered provocative.

CDZ is correct that Asymptote is provocative, only in the sense that Quatronia had better sites available to them, and chose the site that is clearly the worst on Hoag, AND squeezes their borders against CDZ. Quatronia could have chosen a site that was farther away from CDZ and simultaneously a better city overall, but absent some agreement with CDZ they certainly had no obligation to do so.

Upon the founding of Asymptote, CDZ was perfectly correct to assume that Quatronia intended to found cities wherever they wished, on Quatronia's side of Hoag, regardless of how CDZ felt about the cities, and regardless of cultural conflict. CDZ would have therefore been perfectly justified in founding any city on CDZ's side of Hoag in response, but NOT justified in founding cities on Quatronia's side.

4. Therefore, CDZ's claim that Resonance and Asymptote provoked them to found ereh Ro is weak. Resonance and Asymptote are minimally provocative yes, but not THAT provocative. ereh Ro is completely illegitimate, being founded on Quatronia's side of Hoag, on the coast, in Quatronian waters, and claiming the second of the only two Copper sources on Hoag, when CDZ already had a source of Copper. ereh Ro was a total over-reaction to minor provocations at best. Either when Quatronia founded Resonance or especially when Quatronia founded Asymptote, CDZ should have opened settlement negotiations, if they were offended by these cities, rather than escalate the conflict by founding an overly provocative city like ereh Ro.

5. At the point where ereh Ro was founded, the ETTT was in effect, and CDZ should have negotiated with Quatronia over the founding of future cities on Hoag. Both allies were morally (not contracturally) obligated to initiate these talks, so the fact that neither apparently did is wrongdoing on the part of both. CDZ points out that "at no time had Quatronia sought to discuss the settlement of our common peninsula," but they ignore what is equally true, specifically, that CDZ did not seek to discuss settlement either.

6. The argument that "Quatronia did not ask our permission to claim the near-worthless plains spire" is unpersuasive. Asymptote's value is marginal at best, so it was reasonable for Quatronia to assume that CDZ would not want a city in that location, and there would therefore be no harm in claiming the location for themselves. CDZ has even called the city site "marginal" indicating that they did not desire the rest of the land on the barren spire. Furthermore, Asymptote does not threaten the Stone, and it is clearly founded on Quatronia's side of Hoag.

Similarly, the argument that "Quatronia did not ask permission to found a city on Quatronia's side of Hoag, that has three tiles of cultural conflict with Spamville" is also unpersuasive. Resonance is a fine city without the Stone, and the conflict is at the corner of Resonance's BFC, while the Stone is adjacent to Spamville. There is very little chance that Resonance would ever come close to claiming that Stone from Spamville.

7. Pulsar Plateau is an abomination. Whatever moral high ground Quatronia had upon the founding of ereh Ro was completely squandered and erased by founding Pulsar Plateau. Frankly Pulsar Plateau was very close to a de facto declaration of war, thankfully for the ETTT, CDZ did not treat it as such.

Besides creating 12 tiles of cultural conflict, all on valuable grassland tiles, Pulsar Plateau, on a matter of principle is founded in a location that had clearly been claimed by CDZ cities. In fact Pulsar Plateau is not, in and of itself a viable city like Resonance. Its true viability depends upon stealing tiles from the surrounding CDZ cities. Also Pulsar Plateau threatens two strategic resources (both Coppers). Threatening one strategic resource is usually enough to get DoWed' in MP.

The fact that Pulsar Plateau claims an unclaimed banana is a pitiful excuse for founding such an outrageous city. Risking War over a banana? We consider this unlikely. It is more likely that Pulsar Plateau was founded for the specific purpose of stealing the Coppers from CDZ, and CDZ was perfectly reasonable to assume that Pulsar Plateau would be the site of a Cultural Bomb at some later point.

Another bad-faith aspect of Pulsar Plateau, is that when it was founded, we all already knew that we had Iron on our home islands, making the city even more blatantly and unnecessarily provocative. Therefore, Quatronia can not even claim that they needed the Copper, because they already had Iron... 'iron'ically, thanks to CDZ gifting it to the alliance... which makes Pulsar Plateau even more of an insult and outrage against CDZ. CDZ 'gave' the alliance access to Iron by gifting Iron-Working, and Quatronia responds by trying to steal CDZ's Copper.

8. Pulsar Plateau is bad, but Cygous is even worse. The negotiation that Quatronia attempted after founding Pulsar Plateau was too little, too late, to justify Cygous. The time to negotiate was before founding Pulsar Plateau. Furthermore, even if the negotiations proved unsuccessful, that would not justify Pulsar Plateau or Cygous. Cygous, if founded by itself, in response to ereh Ro, would have been a measured response with some small degree of arguable justification, but after the founding of Pulsar Plateau, Cygous was just provocation on top of provocation.

This situation can be likened to a schoolyard fight, where Quatronia sticks their tongue out at CDZ. CDZ then pushes Quatronia in response. Quatronia then punches CDZ in the face, but then says "Hey lets be friends now, just let me push you back first." When CDZ says "no," Quatronia hits CDZ in the head with a rock.

9. About Music... CDZ was teching Music first, before Quatronia was teching it. It is true that Quatronia was first to announce a desire to tech Music, but they stated plainly that they intended to tech Drama first. CDZ then replied that they were already teching Music. This should have ended the discussion. CDZ techs Music, and Quatronia techs Drama. If Quatronia only wanted Drama to reduce the cost of teching Music, then they could have selected something else to tech at that point.

For example, if Quatronia has expressed a desire to tech Construction, only to be informed that Sirius was already teching it, they would simply select something else. Another example would be, if Sirius were to announce that they intended to get all the prerequisite techs along the path to Monarchy, and then tech Monarchy, only to be told that CDZ was already teching Monarchy without getting the prereqs, they might be slightly annoyed, but they would just find something else to tech.

The only reason there was any ado over 'who called Music first' is because of the desire on the part of both teams, to get the Great Artist. The only reason the teams are racing to get the Artist, is to culture bomb each other off of Hoag, or to prevent themselves from being culture bombed.

CDZ has not specifically stated why they initially sought to gain the Great Artist, however they have intimated that they considered using it against Merlot. This claim has some merit, but is not entirely persuasive. What is more likely, and completely legitimate, is that upon the founding of Pulsar Plateau, CDZ either anticipated a culture bomb from Quatronia at Pulsar Plateau, or intended to use a Culture bomb to capture Pulsar Plateau. Either use of the culture bomb would not have been condone-able, but probably would have been understandable under the circumstances.

Quatronia has stated that they only sought to get the culture bomb to prevent CDZ from getting it first, and using it against them. This argument is totally unpersuasive. This is because Quatronia announced that they wanted Music before CDZ announced that they were pursuing Music already. And when CDZ replied that they were after Music already, Quatronia conveyed shock and surprise, as if they were operating under the assumption that CDZ was after something totally different (Feudalism).

There is no convincing reason that a team would be after Music at this stage, other than to get the Great Artist, so Quatronia can not claim that they called Music first (and thus, called the Great Artist first), AND simultaneously claim that they were ONLY pursuing the Great Artist to beat CDZ to it.

This is because, the only way Quatronia could be seeking to beat CDZ to the Artist, is if they already knew, or anticipated, that CDZ was going for it. If they knew CDZ was after the Artist, then their claim to have "called it first" is illegitimate, because they knew CDZ was already in-fact after it.

If on the other hand, Quatronia had no idea that CDZ was after the Artist, then their claim that they had to defensively get it to 'beat CDZ to it' is undermined, because if CDZ was not after it… as far as Quatronia knew (i.e. CDZ was after Feudalism)…, then there was no need to beat them to it. So in short, either Quatronia had a pretty good idea that CDZ was after the Artist and they tried to usurp CDZ after the fact, or Quatronia had no idea whether CDZ was going for the Artist or not and they decided to pursue the Artist as an aggressive tactic, totally independent of whether CDZ was doing so.

So the bottom line of our analysis is... Quatronia technically initiated this conflict, but their actions were very minimal. CDZ totally overreacted, drastically escalating the situation. Quatronia responded with even worse behavior and then compounded their bad acts with additional bad acts, making the situation even worse, and both sides continue the escalation. Returning to the schoolyard analogy, after Quatronia sticks out their tongue, CDZ pushes, Quatronia then punches, and hits CDZ with a rock, CDZ then sees a gun (the G. Artist) on the ground, and makes a run to get it, Quatronia then sees the gun and gives chase, saying "Hey I call the gun, I called it first!"

Surely we can at least agree that neither party should use the gun on the other?

Where do we go from here?

As has been previously stated, we welcome the teams’ feedback on our objective analysis. Reaching some common ground on what went wrong and how to move forward is the only way to resolve this disagreement. As mentioned above, we have already come up with some suggested settlement agreements that we will share when both parties have aired their grievances to their satisfaction. Sharing of city screen shots could help ensure both teams know the other party is acting in good faith. We offer our assistance if needed to oversee this process. While trading cities is a potential solution, this would involve more difficult negotiations. We feel it will be more productive to follow a three-step process, whereby both teams agree to:

1. First, halt expansion on Hoag, pending a settlement agreement.
2. Voice all concerns with the objective analysis, to establish a bona fide, agreed starting point for negotiations
3. Discuss and reach a settlement agreement that addresses as many concerns as possible with as little disruption to the status quo as possible.

We look forward to hearing from our allies,

Sommerswerd, Captain of the Zenobian Matriarchal Alliance

Heh this kinda has put out the fire of excitement for the ETTT, for me personally.

It is better than the alternative for now (though Maverick are starting to look more and more like a good ally, if CDZ has betrayed us). Maybe CDZ would have been reasonable if we'd opened up diplomatic channels after ereh rO, but there's no way to know that now. I think Amazon had this pre crafted and waited until we'd both replied- they didn't respond to our offering to bulb or the rather serious accusation we leveled at CDZ. They really want the ETTT to work, and this was a pretty objective analysis. I for one have no qualms about not settling "Hoag" further and discussing a settling agreement- once we can be assured CDZ hasn't betrayed us.

As for Amazon's analysis of our cities (and the fact they called Pulsar Plateau an abomination), I've analyzed the maximum output of each city:
This is the maximum output of each city on Hoag, with current technology, and assuming a focus on production- no cottages or windmills. Building cottages would basically trade production for wealth.It assumes every coast tile is worked, and plains are farmed where possible. It assumes one border pop. CDZ cities are calculated as if there are no Quatronian cities, and Spamville has been done twice, one for the original and one for after resonance and asymptote (it does not factor in Cygnus). It should be noted that this study does not take into account growth rates and production and lower population (Resonance doesn't lose much production when we remove some population, but Spamville does). It also does not factor in a specialist economy, as stated, it presumes a focus on production, and some cities have more leeway to what kind of city it should be (Pulsar Plateau is almost entirely surrounded by hills and so is a production city). It does not factor in a health/ happiness cap. The calculation for Cygnus does not use any tiles used by Resonance, though in reality they would share tiles.

Pulsar Plateau:
population 10
25 hammers
7 gold

Resonance
population 19
26 hammers (max hammers at 15)
22 gold

Asymptote:
5 hammers (16 with Moai)
population 15 (max hammers at 4)
31 gold

Spamville:
population 12
18 hammers (max hammers at 9)
16 gold

Spamville original:
population 15 (max hammers at 12)
25 hammers
16 gold

Or here:
population 19 (max hammers at 13)
22 hammers
27 gold

ereh rO:
population 19 (max hammers at 14)
24 hammers
21 gold

Cygnus:
population 9
6 hammers + 1 specialist

As we can see, cities founded by Quatronia are not badly placed. Pulsar Plateau is among the best producing cities, wit a population of only 10. Asymptote has the worst production, but the best commerce.
20 gold

Whilst I agree with your assessment and analysis of the cities, I doubt that pointing this out to the ETTT will make any difference now. I think you're right in that they already had the letter pre crafted for a quick response. It seems to have arrived too soon after ours to be otherwise.

As an objective observation they have got Pulsar Plateau roughly right. I would argue that Pulsar Plateau is a city of best fit based on available remaining land. Sure it may look like an attempt to split CDZ's territory up and long term we want to win the game so why wouldn't we do such a thing.

If we take this back a notch to when we were first trying to put the ETTT together it was Quatronia who vouched for CDZ and brought them into the fold. If I recall correctly both Aamzon's and The Continuum had our reservations as we don't really know the players on that team very well. If I had to hazard a guess I think that Amazons see the potential for this current set of events to dissolve the ETTT and they are acting in their best interests to hold it together for as long as possible. The ETTT itself has a shelf life. I would estimate that we have < 50 turns before a 3v1 or 2v2 situation.

It may be that Pulsar Plateau gets razed to settle this dispute. We need to decide amongst ourselves what outcomes we feel are acceptable.

First I think that we should quickly respond suggesting that Quatronia will not continue negotiation until we've had full disclosure regarding CDZ's financier(s).

The fact that CDZ settled like 2 turns before each of our settlers got there is what caused this problem, and we could rightly point this out. Pulsar Plateau came very shortly after ereh Ro, and we intended to settle Cosmos overselves.

The same goes for Resonance - Spamville was there just a handful of turns faster and our settler/galley were already en route.

I do wish we'd managed to REX better the whole time, but at the same time it's really odd that AMAZONs have not recognized the other problems the map forced upon us - not having the desert peninsula shared for instance, and MERLOT and Mavericks already as enemies settled the other land which probably made settling towards each other (us and CDZ) mutually encouraged.

But anyway I don't care - I don't see how communicating more to AMAZON is going to help. They've made their decisions and we're not settling the peninsula further, and we'll have military to defend the cities.

I do like using the Great Artist as things stand on a golden age. Say it would only bulb part of a worthless Divine Right and that's it.

I do wish that we'd communicated things like asking Sirius to tech music, or bulbing or golden aging the great artist earlier. Perhaps I didn't make it clear, but from elsewhere on the forums AMAZON has a significant number of young posters who can't reason through arguments very well, and like to jump to conclusions that cause conflict. I don't know how this affects their leadership but if they are a team with lots of "polls" and so on I could see this working out - I also expect they just have a significant number of these people inactive or lurking though, just joined to, y'know, be "Amazon women" and joke about that.

Also, it's completely unexcusable that the problem of CDZ's gold has not been addressed. In fact I think that's the only answer we give right now - say we're not settling further anyway and have no grounds for further negotiation until CDZ explains they are not dealing with Mavericks or MERLOT.



edit If AMAZONs are getting really nasty arguing about city settling, we should show them this screenshot, 3rd one from this post:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=9528752&postcount=81

It shows that ereh Ro was founded just a couple turns before our settler was there, and CDZ obviously did not negotiate, and we had to settle Pulsar instead. I think it's fair to point out to AMAZON the fact that as our settler was ALREADY going there, it's not like it's really fair to have expected us to go somewhere completely different at that point. But again, I think they don't care - or all they really care about it keeping the ETTT together, and I think CDZ is not following through there anyway.

Also, we should make very clear that we offered CDZ negotiation and waited a full couple of turns to even settle Cygmus, but they were not interested in doing so.

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/5138/civ4screenshot0004h.jpg (http://img691.imageshack.us/i/civ4screenshot0004h.jpg/)



one last edit: I think it's fair to point out that in all their city-settling, CDZ has not at all followed up on developing their cities. This is indicated by the fact they didn't have workers or workboats ready to really help out at their cities, and they haven't grown their cities to higher pop (Resonance and Asymptote clearly doing better there). ereh Ro is a very solid example where they rushed to settle the city, and still don't have any workers/resources etc... to support it, whereas we didn't do the same with our cities, we came prepared/with a plan to develop them. A further indication is the fact that CDZ is completely defenseless against, say, Maverick attack around ereh Ro and would expect us and our ships to defend them.

But really we don't have to justify to AMAZON how cities were founded in the end. It doesn't matter, because we are trying to do the best for us to come out on top just like CDZ and everyone else is doing for themselves.

I agree that we don't really have to justify our city building to Amazon, though maybe it could help to have a discussion like that with CDZ if they haven't backstabbed us. Amazon's analysis prompted me to look into the worth of all the cities so we can have that knowledge, not necessarily so we pass it on. Despite our lack of early REXing, it appears as though we've come out on top in the settling race, especially as the CDZ cities are much worse than on paper due to our efforts.

For the next steps, here is what I propose we do:
1) Get to the bottom of the Viking treasure. If they've been dealing with Merlot, we must get Mavericks to take their place in the ETTT otherwise face a two-front war. We should send a message to Sirius and Amazon with these concerns.

2) Golden age. No point in divine right, and a culture bomb will either annoy the rest of the alliance too much or be ineffective in a military contest. We can't threaten CDZ with it either, as they will go whining to the rest of the alliance.

3) If CDZ turns out to be trustworthy, the everyone should DoW M&M. If not, we must be prepared to bring Mavericks into ETTT 2.0, maybe have a ready made message.

4) If the ETTT holds and is at war with M&M, then we say plenty of nice things, look to make amends, mainly to make sure Sirius and Amazon still like us. Since we've got a good position on the peninsula, I see no reason to offer a city trade, we can let CDZ come up with one if they want, and we can then consider it. We're not planning on building there in the near future, so agreeing to do that is no problem.

Please add your own thoughts/ critiques to this policy so we can figure out our aims and make it easier to craft messages.

One more thing to consider, though it is a small detail- Amazon mentions that Sirius has named our peninsula 'Hoag'. In itself, that doesn't mean anything, but we can see that they've had extensive communication with each other on this issue, and in general. Post-ETTT, that probably means they intend to be the last two remaining, so a 3v1 against CDZ would turn into 2v1 against us, and it is unlikely we can turn Sirius against Amazon so we can fight CDZ. So it is necessary to patch things up with CDZ if possible to keep our options open.

I really appreciate your summary, you've stated our issues well. My takes:
-I like the Golden Age, personally. This is my vote but it's as always a team decision.

-AMAZONs would be suicidal to intend for Sirius to be the last team remaining. True, we don't know what they are thinking, and they might not like the idea of us being the 2nd to last team with them as much as they might have said initially. But taking Sirius to the end would result in AMAZONs being utterly wrecked by Sirius (better economy, Dikes, etc...)

However, I have no doubts both of those teams could easily find a position that would really hurt us in advancing their own goals to the endgame.

-I would prefer to keep the ETTT together, not have to fight CDZ right now, and in the even it happens bringing Mavericks in over MERLOT but that would still be a tough thing to set up - much rather we just take out M&M. However CDZ could already have really secretly abandoned the ETTT and any hopes of alliance so we should be aware of this issue/backstab.

I'd probably send the following in messages:
-Just announce we must settle the concern of CDZ dealing with others before any other deals are made. Announce we don't intend to settle "Hoag" more anyway though. I don't think it's worth trying to justify city positions/history of cities anyway. But if to one particular team, like AMAZONs, if they really want that in private we do have the analysis/screenshots around.

-Encourage war on M&M, basically saying we agree with that goal put forward by AMAZON and are about to pursue it actively.

Maybe just as simple as sending the following then?


To the magnanimous members of the ETTT,

At this time The Continuum of Quatronia has no further intention to settle the peninsular designated as 'Hoag' however The Continuum can not continue with these negotiations until we've had full disclosure regarding CDZ's financier(s).

The Honourable Continuum of Quatronia

A little heavy on "the Continuum" otherwise I like it.

I think "magnanimous" and "honourable" might come across wrong under the current circumstances. We don't want the other teams to think we are being patronizing or fake. Better for CDZ to look like the ones blowing smoke and being crafty.

To our fellow ETTT members,

Quatronia agrees to hold off on our plans to further settle the peninsula designated as 'Hoag.' We will gladly suspend our expansion for the time being if this will help strengthen the ETTT and allow us to constructively resolve our recent differences. However, the Continuum can not continue with these negotiations until we've had full disclosure regarding CDZ's financier(s).

Respectfully,

Team Quatronia

How about sticking in:

To our fellow ETTT members,

Quatronia agrees to hold off on our plans to further settle the peninsula designated as 'Hoag.' We will gladly suspend our expansion for the time being if this will help strengthen the ETTT and allow us to constructively resolve our recent differences. However, the Continuum can not continue with these negotiations until we've had full disclosure regarding CDZ's financier(s). A declaration of war by CDZ on M&M would suffice.

Respectfully,

Team Quatronia

Nope, that last sentence gets them off the hook without having to explain what is going on. And if they are secretly colluding with M&M it would be easy for them to just have a phony war until they are ready to openly betray us.

Yes, good point. Maybe we should set a time limit for response though. Also, we'll need to very carefully analyze CDZ's response, because we will have to try and tell if they are lying- they're unlikely to come clean if they are betraying us until they're ready.

If we can verify CDZ has a galley near ereh Ro, it would seem like the Mavericks gifted that to them; I'm happy to immediately add an inquiry about gifted units to this message if that works. But I like it as it is in cav_scout's post anyway. (If we have this second issue, I might ask "disclosure regarding CDZ's financiers and any units they've been gifting or gifted")

We're loosing too much time. We need to send this.
At this point we don't need to accuse them of trading units. The money may be enough to throw doubt on their transactions. If we can confirm a unit trade we can press them on it later, after they come clean or otherwise.

I think that Cav_Scouts revision is enough.

Yeah I'm fine on sending it very soon too, so let's just go with it then, no objections to the message anyway and I agree we should send it very soon. Just posted that in this thread as well due to the common problem of discussions in multiple threads missing out on latest news.

Sent cav scout's version.

To our fellow ETTT members,

Quatronia agrees to hold off on our plans to further settle the peninsula designated as 'Hoag.' We will gladly suspend our expansion for the time being if this will help strengthen the ETTT and allow us to constructively resolve our recent differences. However, the Continuum can not continue with these negotiations until we've had full disclosure regarding CDZ's financier(s).

Respectfully,

Team Quatronia