View Full Version : The best and worst abilities.


Saint Rising
Sep 16, 2010, 09:35 PM
So, I think we all can agree that the Ottomans and the Germans got the biggest shaft. Germans especially. I mean, after everything is all settled up, how many barbarians are going to be spawned. It might be useful for some early war-mongering, but later on it won't mean anything. The only way I can see it lasting is if you have a large zone where no one can get in, and barbarians can spawn indefinitely, and based on the unit cap, I can't see that being a viable strategy.

Ottomans have perhaps a slight advantage, but only on maps with much water. If barbarian ships spawn in the water and not at a seaside barbarian encampment, that is. Otherwise, the Ottoman Empire's Barbary Corsairs won't help much. However, Janissary are extremely powerful, by the looks of it, so that should offset this sad sad thing.

In my opinion, the most powerful two are the abilities for the Japanese and the Aztecs, with Japanese in front. Units at full power despite wounded could be extremely useful. Its like every unit is a Janissary. I know that if I see Oda Nobunaga right next to me, I'll start panicking.

Aztecs are in second, because if Monty is anything like he is in Civ IV, he'll be killing EVERYTHING THERE EVER WAS EVER. That means culture. Lots and lots of culture. That means he'll get the most powerful social policies. That means he'll get awesome bonuses and either get domination with ease, or just get the Utopia project done. It will be a great Utopia. As some 40k fans would say, "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!"

So, what are your opinions on the strongest and weakest?

ShaqFu
Sep 16, 2010, 09:38 PM
I'm curious about something: If the German/Ottoman abilities read as follows:

"Every turn, there is a 3% chance a unit of the era will spawn in the capital"

What would you think of it?

mmmfloorpie
Sep 16, 2010, 09:41 PM
From the gameplay footage, I thought just the Samurai had the "fight at full strength even when wounded" ability?

Saint Rising
Sep 16, 2010, 09:41 PM
@ShaqFu Eh... that's a bit better, but three percent is pretty low, in my opinion. Then again, we don't really know the whole situation on barbarians yet, so maybe they function quite a bit differently from the Civ IV ones.

@Other Fellow Who's Name I Forget: Yeah, I typed a bit odd. Sorry for the confusion. They don't get automatically healed.

Alsark
Sep 16, 2010, 09:42 PM
The only way I can see it lasting is if you have a large zone where no one can get in, and barbarians can spawn indefinitely, and based on the unit cap, I can't see that being a viable strategy.

You know the funny thing? Even that won't work. The special ability only triggers (from how Arioch's site makes it sound), when you kill a barbarian inside of an encampment (in other words, when you take an encampment). So you can't wait for them to keep spawning.

I think you're right on about the weakest ones. As for the strongest, I definitely agree with Japan. Depending on how the mechanics work, China's ability and Greece's ability might also be pretty good - I'd have to see them in action. France's ability is also quite good, since it'll aid in some early social policy grabs.

Dark_Jedi06
Sep 16, 2010, 09:42 PM
Germany has the Panzer, that makes up for everything. :D

WeaselSlapper
Sep 16, 2010, 09:42 PM
From the gameplay footage, I thought just the Samurai had the "fight at full strength even when wounded" ability?

That bonus of for all Japanese units not just the Samurai

Saint Rising
Sep 16, 2010, 09:44 PM
Germany has the Panzer, that makes up for everything. :D

Indeed. The UUs for the Turks and the Germs really do help to make up for the weak abilities. Good balancing, in my opinion.

bhavv
Sep 16, 2010, 09:48 PM
Indeed. The UUs for the Turks and the Germs really do help to make up for the weak abilities. Good balancing, in my opinion.

Thats kind of the whole point.

You need to look at all the civs unique abilities - UA, UUs and UB before considering how good or bad they are.

Even then, I likely wont ever play Germany or Ottomans in Civ 5.

Saint Rising
Sep 16, 2010, 09:50 PM
even then, i likely wont ever play germany or ottomans in civ 5.

The glory of the world is for the Ottoman Empire! Die, European scum!

ShaqFu
Sep 16, 2010, 09:51 PM
@ShaqFu Eh... that's a bit better, but three percent is pretty low, in my opinion. Then again, we don't really know the whole situation on barbarians yet, so maybe they function quite a bit differently from the Civ IV ones.

Given that the barbarian abilities are likely better than what I put out, it's a lot less worthless than you'd think. I don't understand the dislike of "get free units occasionally" UAs.

Some guy
Sep 16, 2010, 09:52 PM
No it doesn't. Situational bonuses eliminate too many options for the player. Having options is the most important aspect in any game..

bhavv
Sep 16, 2010, 09:56 PM
The glory of the world is for the Ottoman Empire! Die, European scum!

You can try to make an attempt to kill me, but my vast English navies will decimate your borders, and my longbows will unleash a rain of hell upon your inadequate armies :lol:

Saint Rising
Sep 16, 2010, 09:58 PM
You can try to make an attempt to kill me, but my vast English navies will decimate your borders, and my longbows will unleash a rain of hell upon your inadequate armies :lol:

When my Janissaries storm the shores of England and trounce your feeble riflemen, then we shall see who will have inadequate armies! :king:

Alsark
Sep 16, 2010, 10:09 PM
I'll probably never play the following civilizations:

- England (I don't like navy, though the Longbowman is good)
- Germany (weak ability and I don't want to mass Pikemen, plus Panzer is too late for me)
- Persia (I don't focus much on getting Golden Ages [this may change in Civ5, we'll see])
- Songhai (they're too war-focused for me, and I'd pick Japan for war, anyway)
- America (units and trait aren't terribly appealing to me)

I will try the following:

* Arabia
- Aztecs
- China
* Egypt
- France
* Greece
* India
- Iroquois
- Japan
- Ottomans
- Rome
* Russia
- Siam

I starred Arabia, Egypt, Greece, Russia, and India because, depending on how gameplay works out, I'll likely "main" as one of them. Russia and Arabia are somewhat similar in terms of level for me - they have no real victory focus in mind but seem like civilizations I'd enjoy playing. Greece I'd play for Diplomatic victories and India, perhaps, for cultural victories (unless more cities is superior for cultural victories, which I'd then use France). Egypt suits my style because it's obviously more domestic-orientated than war-orientated (and I love wonders - and so many of them in this game are very useful).

I'll probably play as Egypt first unless Babylon appeals to me. Since Egypt grabs wonders more quickly, you can see them, in a way, as having more than one special ability since you'll practically be guaranteed a few wonders through them. Sure, a warmonger will say they'd just take the wonders, but I prefer to play peacefully and build them myself.

Abremms
Sep 16, 2010, 10:13 PM
i don't think you can look at the unique ability by itself. you're only getting one piece of the picture that way, weaker abilities are balanced by stronger units. like Germany, who the OP says is weak, it may be that their UA loses its usefulness as the game goes on, but then they get panzers to make up for it.

honestly, when you look at the whole picture and realize that each civ will take a slightly different play style, it all seems relatively balanced to me. i'm sore some glaring imperfection will show itself once we get our hands on it, but i think the groundwork is there.

bhavv
Sep 16, 2010, 10:14 PM
When my Janissaries storm the shores of England and trounce your feeble riflemen, then we shall see who will have inadequate armies! :king:

You think you will even make it onto my shores? :rolleyes:

My navy will crush your measly 2 movement transports dead in their tracks.

Abremms
Sep 16, 2010, 10:18 PM
You think you will even make it onto my shores? :rolleyes:

My navy will crush your measly 2 movement transports dead in their tracks.

thats a very good point, map type will play a big role in how powerful a UA is.

Archipelago? England is going to hurt you.

Pangea? after England's longbowmen are done, they are at a disadvantage.

interesting dynamics, imo.

bhavv
Sep 16, 2010, 10:21 PM
thats a very good point, map type will play a big role in how powerful a UA is.

Archipelago? England is going to hurt you.

Pangaea? after England's longbowmen are done, they are at a disadvantage.

interesting dynamics, imo.

Yea, England will suck on Pangaeas. So will the Ottomans UA.

cybrxkhan
Sep 16, 2010, 10:24 PM
I'm interested in seeing how powerful China's UA can just be. Great Generals were something I didn't encounter too much in Civ4, but from what I remember, in Civ5, normal Great Generals give a +25% combat bonus to nearby troops. So, depending on how much stronger Chinese Great Generals are, the Chinese might well quite the versatile military civilization indeed!

I also think Egypt, France, and the Indians will make good all-purpose civs. Depending on how powerful city-states will be, Siam and Greece might also be quite powerful.


But I do agree that Germany's UA kind of is useless after the early stages, and that England's UA will be sort of useless on certain maps.

Pinstar
Sep 16, 2010, 10:24 PM
I have to agree that the ottoman's ability is utter crap. However, I am going to, at least at first, wade into Civ V fresh with them as they are my civ of choice in IV and I have a bit of loyalty to them.

SirTurtle
Sep 16, 2010, 10:39 PM
Long-term strategy for Germany:

The Barbarian Preservation


This strategy only works when you start on a small to medium sized continent. The continent also needs to be relatively compact, not long and snaky. Also raging barbarians will be very helpful.

1. Honor is essential, so take this as your first SP.

2. Your initial goal is eliminate any other civ(s) that shares your continent. Hopefully you will be able to achieve this with a brute rush. If not, you'll have to abandon the barb preserve strategy. City States don't need to be eliminated unless they are in the core of your continent.

3. Settle your cities only on the coast on the edges of the continent.

4. The middle of the continent is now your barbarian preservation. You must keep this area in fog-of-war at all times, except when camp razing.

5. You will need to keep a small force of dedicated barb hunters stationed near your coastal cities. As soon as honor warns you that a camp has spawned, head to take it out with your barb hunters. (If the amount of XP awarded from barbs is capped, then it may be good to bring a few newbie units with your experienced barb hunters.) You'll gain gold, experience, and hopefully a free unit.

6. Use the extra units and other goodies to conquer the world!


P.S. Obviously I've never tried this strategy, so I don't know how well it works. But even if it's not really worthwhile, it should still be fun.

bhavv
Sep 16, 2010, 10:45 PM
^^

Sounds like far too much effort for too little a reward.

Silverwave
Sep 16, 2010, 10:57 PM
I don't remember where I've seen someone talking about this, but French special ability isn't so great either.

+2 culture for each city per turn. That's pretty great, but then it's a limited boost, since you'll lose it when you get steam power. But the main reason why it isn't great it's because each city you found increase the cost of policies by 33%. If you make the count, the +2 per turn per city isn't giving you much of a boost (still is, but not as you'd think).

I'm not very appealed with any "temporary" abilities from French, German and Ottoman civilization. I prefer something that is benefical throughout all the game.

And yeah, japan's special ability IS awesome, though, we've seen it in the 2K livestream, you still have to stay competitive technologically wise. That bonus isn't getting you victory by itself.

P.S. To add to the crapyness of German's special ability, don't forget you have to pay the maintenance cost of those so called "free" units. And you have a unit cap too, which you might want to cap with the most powerfull units possible... that is, the extra gold you get from barb encampments isn't realistically enough to pay for upgrading the crappy brute unit.

SirTurtle
Sep 16, 2010, 11:04 PM
Sounds like far too much effort for too little a reward.

Yeah, you're probably right. I've was just trying to think of ways to get the most out of Germany's UA, since so many are saying it sucks.

Another idea for the Germans: use a map script like Civ IV's Earth2. Get to the New World first and have lots of fun clearing it of high-tech barbs.

Silverwave
Sep 16, 2010, 11:11 PM
Yeah, you're probably right. I've was just trying to think of ways to get the most out of Germany's UA, since so many are saying it sucks.


Wait, we weren't saying German's ability sucks (well, maybe some are, not me). It's still a nice ability. It's just that compared to the ability of other civs, it seems a bit underpowered.

And for those saying "yeah, but they got Panzer" well, yeah, it's 1 move faster and friggin' 10 more strenght than Armor, but we don't know how much cost a Tank, while Panzer cost MORE than the modern armor, which is Str of 80 !!

obsolete
Sep 16, 2010, 11:15 PM
It seems to me Industrious went from a top tier trait to the bottom of the barrel. We went from 50% discount down to only 20%. And they even removed the half-price forges.

There's certainly a lot of other amazing traits out there, so why would anyone want this one beats me.

Sorry guys, but I'm not going to continue the old Industrious Deity series for Civ5. If someone else wants to take over go ahead. I'd much rather go with Japan or someone else.

Silverwave
Sep 16, 2010, 11:16 PM
Hey, BTW. I may be out of subject but : I was just looking at Jaguar units. Well, those are nice, but what about you don't start in a tropical continent and there's no jungles around your civ. Guess yout unit becomes pretty useless?

SirTurtle
Sep 16, 2010, 11:23 PM
Hey, BTW. I may be out of subject but : I was just looking at Jaguar units. Well, those are nice, but what about you don't start in a tropical continent and there's no jungles around your civ. Guess yout unit becomes pretty useless?

Start bias should help.

bhavv
Sep 16, 2010, 11:25 PM
It seems to me Industrious went from a top tier trait to the bottom of the barrel. We went from 50% discount down to only 20%. And they even removed the half-price forges.

There's certainly a lot of other amazing traits out there, so why would anyone want this one beats me.

Sorry guys, but I'm not going to continue the old Industrious Deity series for Civ5. If someone else wants to take over go ahead. I'd much rather go with Japan or someone else.

I think you are looking at this a bit wrong.

There is no more 'industrious' trait or any other in Civ 5, and every civ is unique.

Having said that, Ramesses is the only leader that gets a bonus to wonder production, so that 20% boost is an advantage that only he has. In Civ 4, you could play an indusrious civ, but anyone else could be industrious too and also compete with you for wonders. However, if you play ramesses correctly, you will always be able to get some wonders completed before anyone else can.

Silverwave
Sep 16, 2010, 11:25 PM
Start bias should help.

What you mean? Computer will try to make you start around jungles if you play Aztec? If so, I guess it will be the same for English (near ocean), etc ? That would be nice.

SirTurtle
Sep 16, 2010, 11:33 PM
What you mean? Computer will try to make you start around jungles if you play Aztec? If so, I guess it will be the same for English (near ocean), etc ? That would be nice.

Yup, that's the basic idea.

I don't know much more about it. There's a "Disable Start Bias" option in World Builder. Check out this (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/civilizationv/images/6275474/2/?path=2010%2F251%2Freviews%2F938528_20100909_embed 002.jpg&caption=You%2Bcan%2Buse%2Bthe%2Bgame%2527s%2Btools %2Bto%2Btweak%2Bcustom%2Bmaps%2Band%2Bmods%2Bto%2B create%2Bsome%2Bpretty%2Bfar-out%2Bstuff.&cvr=Xa%2F1) screen shot.

pi-r8
Sep 16, 2010, 11:34 PM
Long-term strategy for Germany:

The Barbarian Preservation


This strategy only works when you start on a small to medium sized continent. The continent also needs to be relatively compact, not long and snaky. Also raging barbarians will be very helpful.

1. Honor is essential, so take this as your first SP.

2. Your initial goal is eliminate any other civ(s) that shares your continent. Hopefully you will be able to achieve this with a brute rush. If not, you'll have to abandon the barb preserve strategy. City States don't need to be eliminated unless they are in the core of your continent.

3. Settle your cities only on the coast on the edges of the continent.

4. The middle of the continent is now your barbarian preservation. You must keep this area in fog-of-war at all times, except when camp razing.

5. You will need to keep a small force of dedicated barb hunters stationed near your coastal cities. As soon as honor warns you that a camp has spawned, head to take it out with your barb hunters. (If the amount of XP awarded from barbs is capped, then it may be good to bring a few newbie units with your experienced barb hunters.) You'll gain gold, experience, and hopefully a free unit.

6. Use the extra units and other goodies to conquer the world!


P.S. Obviously I've never tried this strategy, so I don't know how well it works. But even if it's not really worthwhile, it should still be fun.

Screw preserving the barbarians. Just use them for a rush on a neighbor. If you fight 10 barb units early on, that's about 5 free units you'll get, plus 125 gold which you can use to buy more units. That means you can put together an early attacking army a lot faster than any other civ.

Silverwave
Sep 16, 2010, 11:59 PM
Screw preserving the barbarians. Just use them for a rush on a neighbor. If you fight 10 barb units early on, that's about 5 free units you'll get, plus 125 gold which you can use to buy more units. That means you can put together an early attacking army a lot faster than any other civ.

Not really. You don't get free units for killing barbarians. You get those for clearing barbarian encampments. There's not as much encampments than barbarian units.

Silverwave
Sep 17, 2010, 12:00 AM
Yup, that's the basic idea.

I don't know much more about it. There's a "Disable Start Bias" option in World Builder. Check out this (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/strategy/civilizationv/images/6275474/2/?path=2010%2F251%2Freviews%2F938528_20100909_embed 002.jpg&caption=You%2Bcan%2Buse%2Bthe%2Bgame%2527s%2Btools %2Bto%2Btweak%2Bcustom%2Bmaps%2Band%2Bmods%2Bto%2B create%2Bsome%2Bpretty%2Bfar-out%2Bstuff.&cvr=Xa%2F1) screen shot.

Isn't this option for "civilisation behavior"?

EDIT : Scratch that, there's a "random personalities" in the options :)

That's sweet then!

CrimsonEdge
Sep 17, 2010, 12:54 AM
I think everyone is underestimating the German ability.

Clear a barbarian encampment you get the XP for the kills and a chance to get a new unit.

You then take that and attack somebody, or expand rapidly.

Spark026
Sep 17, 2010, 01:05 AM
In theory the French seem like one of the strongest civ abilities. People are failing to realize that Social Policies are powerful enough to dwarf most civ specific abilities and this is where the French shine. They'll get there policies twice as fast at the very beginning, which has too many rippling effects to discuss.

Timing is uncertain, but something like the following for single-player games:

Tradition

Tradition is best for small empires, with many Policies that improve the Capital City. Adopting Tradition will immediately provide a bonus of +2 Food per turn in the Capital.

* Aristocracy: +33% production bonus for Wonders.

For first policy Paris gets +2 food, increasing growth, and more importantly allowing you to work higher production tiles without stunting the cities growth.Additionally, quicker growth equals more science output in Civ5.

Take Aristocracy as ur 2nd policy.

When starting the game build scout, then worker(rush with gold when possible); research Pottery, then Calendar. Upon 2nd policy, build Stonehenge(only cost 80 hammers with bonus!). Note: Better wonder production than Egyptians until they catch up in policy path should they go that way.

Stonehenge

Technology: Calendar
Cost: 120
+8 Culture, +1 Great Engineer Points

With only 1 city, and Stonehenge, France should rocket to 3rd Social policy, and choose:

Liberty

Liberty is best for civilizations which desire rapid expansion. Adopting Liberty will speed up the training of Settlers by 50%. This branch cannot be active at the same time as Autocracy.

With the bonus you start building ur settlers at half price.

Continue building settlers until happiness starts to go negative for your difficulty setting.

If closing in on 4th policy hold off settling a city for a turn or three.

Found cities, build granary, then temple, then library, then circus(if uve got horses)or Colosseum(if u have tech).

Choose Piety as 4th policy.

Piety

Unlocks at Classical Era.
Piety increases the Happiness of empires, and allows their Culture to flourish. Adopting Piety immediately increases the Happiness in the empire by 2. This branch cannot be active at the same time as Rationalism.

Continue filling in Peity tree for foreseeable future until you hopefully get to:

Free Religion: 2 Free Cultural Policies. (requires Mandate of Heaven)

Which is at the end of the Piety tree.

Build Oracle to get Free Religion sooner! Remember to build temples in all new cities.

Oracle

Cost: 150(just 100 for you!)
+1 Culture, +1 Great Scientist Points; Awards a free Social Policy when completed.

Ideally, the scenario above can be accomplished before you get access to Gunpowder(Musketeers, the French UU).

This means the French will need perhaps 9 social policies following the above plan. Which in order, to recap:

Tradition: Plus 2 extra food in capital.
Aristocracy: Plus 33% wonder production.
Liberty: Plus 50% settler production.
Piety: Increases the Happiness in the empire by 2
Mandate of Heaven: 50% of excess Happiness added each turn to the amount of Culture that may be spent on Policies.
Organized Religion: Amount of Happiness required to start a Golden Age reduced by 25%.
Reformation: The empire immediately enters a 6-turn Golden Age. (requires Organized Religion)
Theocracy: -20% Unhappiness from population in non-captured cities. (requires Organized Religion)
Free Religion: 2 Free Cultural Policies. (requires Mandate of Heaven)

Timing will need to be tested to see how long this will take, but it seems highly probably the French can accomplish this before Gunpowder, especially with help of Stonehenge and Oracle, which are absolutely necessary.

Use 2 free cultural policies from Free Religion to boost you down the Honor policy tree:

Honor

Honor improves the effectiveness of one's army in a variety of ways. Adopting Honor gives a +25% combat bonus VS Barbarians and notifications will be provided when new Barbarian Camps spawn in revealed territory.

* Warrior Code: Great General appears outside the Capital.
* Discipline: +15% Combat Strength bonus from an adjacent friendly unit.

At this point you can be a man, and storm the gates of your enemies:nuke:, as you will have hopefully out tech-ed your adversaries with your rapid population explosion.

Or you can be a pansy, and continue cultural building, finishing off the 4 policy trees you already have started, and then taking Patronage or Commerce as ur 5th tree, so you can start Utopia Project, you dirty tree hugger!:lol:

Now tell me the French ability sucks...

Aldor
Sep 17, 2010, 01:33 AM
The french ability also ends long before the game is over. In small empires its effect will be so small that it'll be hard to notice (+2 culture per city per turn, right? So thats 10 extra culture per turn with a 5 city empire...whoa! *yawn* Build a single wonder and you're right up there with any other civ too).

Both the german and the french abilities give an advantage in the early game, which is the critical phase for every civ. IMO that makes both abilities rather good.

Now the Ottoman one I don't know. You won't be building (usually) a lot of ships early on. And we don't know if there'll be lots of barb ships in the medieval or later times. So I'd really rate this ability low.

Zhahz
Sep 17, 2010, 01:46 AM
I don't personally care for the german ability but it seems like it could lead to early rush potential and with the right kind of start, could be nasty. Some think early rush is gonna be much harder in Civ 5 (I think so) but the Germans might be able to pull it off.

You get those for clearing barbarian encampments. There's not as much encampments than barbarian units.

Dunno about that, in the 2K demo he plays what, about 35 turns and finds 5ish (some via event that he never gets to) with suboptimal exploration (he was explaining a lot more than playing well). One thing that stood out in the first demo is that barbarians are out almost immediately along with encampments. I would guess expansion will be slightly slower so that means there could be a lot of "fog" (revealed but not visible) territory and we don't know how fast barb encampments pop.

It could almost be like FfH where exploration quickly gets to be dangerous and fatal. Extra freebie units would be helpful for that. (potential side bonus)

I really would've liked to see more of the early game demo for a variety of reasons, including seeing more of how exploration plays out.

Anyways.

Early Honor SPs for extra oomph and locating camps with 4-5 throw away barb units and maybe a couple early archers could probably take out some cities. The extra gold would help pay for it all til you scrap it or catch up on infrastructure. With all the early priorities and stuff, AIs could be a little slower putting out a 2nd city and wouldn't likely have a lot of defense nor defense city structures either way.

Now let's say it's continents or something like that where there's only 2-3 major powers, one of them being german. If those other majors only have 1-2 lightly defended cities that early and the german has 2-4x as many units anyone else via freebies...could be interesting in a violent way.

Take out the others early and either raze or puppet them and you end up with a nice chunk of land all to yourself to develop at your leisure. There's a lot to be said for having a continent all to yourself early on. Probably wouldn't hurt to have a few puppet capitals adding to your resources early, since capitals tend to be juicy city plots. Annex later once you build infrastructure.

So, I'd say there's potential for the right player. Doubt it's me but it seems somewhat viable. But, maybe I just talked myself into trying it...shoot...is it tuesday yet?

I tend to prefer abilities that are more generic and lasting and less gimmick oriented. There are several that fit my style.

I wouldn't say Japan's ability is the most powerful. Powerful for sure, especially for a warmonger, but fighting at full health is only so valuable if you're out teched, grossly out numbered, or have nobody around to fight. :P

Lastly - I like how the UAs are setup overal - lots of variety. SPs will be a big part of user-defined customization but the UAs will add some nice flavor and direction.

Spark026
Sep 17, 2010, 01:56 AM
I think people would better understand the French ability if you rephrased it:

French get a 100% boost towards getting Social policies for the first 50 turns of the game. After that the boost will obviously degrade at variable rates.

Other civs have to tech all the way to Philosophy, and then build a temple before they can raise their culture.

And nearly all Civ games will be essentially won or lost before you get out of the Medieval Era, so expiring with Steam Power is irrelevant. On higher lvls its typically won or lost by the end of the Classical Era, truth be told.

iskar
Sep 17, 2010, 02:35 AM
ey people,
I have been reading this forum for quite some time now and ive played civ 3 and 4 for a long time.

now my only point here would be, why wonder which civilization would be the strongest, isnt it all up to the players skill? I mean, yes the aztec and japanese ability are strong but only if you have a long war, wich isnt very good for your economy. to be honest, in my opinion they are all verry balanced, by exploiting your strengths you weaken other aspects of your empire, it takes a skilled player to master the civs UA while keeping the rest of his empire under control. I mean all the turns you use to build units for your long wars can also be used to build up your empire and rule late game. yes the greek UA is usefull when dealing with city states but if they are in the way or you realy need the extra city that the ability will be useless since you might want to conquer them instead.

like in all civ games, you need to make choices, what strategy you use is all up to the map you play and how your opponents play.

(sorry for any spelling and grammar errors)

Trine
Sep 17, 2010, 02:55 AM
The problem I forsee with the Barbarian based UA is the simple fact that almost every multiplayer game I've ever played in during CivIV has barbarians (as well as random events, tech trading, and alot of other things that have been removed from Civ5 oddly enough) disabled. So tell me, if you play as Germany and the host disables Barbarians, does that mean you're just out of luck and end up with no UA?

stealth_nsk
Sep 17, 2010, 03:05 AM
The problem I forsee with the Barbarian based UA is the simple fact that almost every multiplayer game I've ever played in during CivIV has barbarians (as well as random events, tech trading, and alot of other things that have been removed from Civ5 oddly enough) disabled. So tell me, if you play as Germany and the host disables Barbarians, does that mean you're just out of luck and end up with no UA?

I think the barbarians will not be disabled in Civ5 MP, because:
- There are 3 civ abilities depending on barbarians directly and at least 1 depending indirectly.
- Cities are able to defend themselves no, so barbarians aren't critical threat.

P.S. Also I'd say disabling goody huts will weaken America.

iskar
Sep 17, 2010, 03:11 AM
ehm, dont join a game where they are disabled?
and if you pick random for a civ, dont join a game which has them disabled since you know that your UA might become useless.

Iceciro
Sep 17, 2010, 03:23 AM
Don't play Multiplayer with the STOP HAVING FUN! guys who take civ too seriously and turn off all the stuff like barbarians and goody huts and you'll be fine as Germany.

Really, you'd want to sit down for a game of civ with those kind of people? They'll probably put the game on Super Hyper Fast speed too.

Ikariam
Sep 17, 2010, 03:42 AM
I think they should add a feature that Civs like Germany will be given a certain amount of gold at game start if barbarian is disabled.

Gallean88
Sep 17, 2010, 03:46 AM
Why has nobody brought up Siberian Riches yet? It's a great UA, as it gives you more resources to build units with, resulting in more swords or horsemen, and gives you extra production to either get those units out faster or leverage it otherwise. I can't wait to try russia out.

Iceciro
Sep 17, 2010, 03:49 AM
Siberian Riches is awesome UA. It lets you get out more Cossacks, which is thier UU, too - which is a nice synergy if I do say so myself.

Hawe Hawe
Sep 17, 2010, 04:01 AM
One of the neglected benefits of the Ottoman and German abilities might be the economic side effect: You earn money by defeating barbarians. Not much, but it is difficult yet to judge how 25 gold effect your economy. Plus, you could immediately disband your new conquered barbarian units getting you additional gold.
I expect money to be more important than in civ 4, so this could be a small extra bonus. But in general i agree, that there are more convincing abilities like siberian riches, arab trade caravans and glory of rome.

GoodSarmatian
Sep 17, 2010, 04:22 AM
I think Germany's ability isn't bad. You can use it for early rushes, faster exploration and invest the production you saved on units in one or two early wonders. I just wish Germany had a science or industry related UB instead of having only military advantages.
Same for Japan: Great ability and very good UUs but in the game Japan is a very one-dimensional warmonger civ.
The weakest ability for me is without doubt barbary corsairs because it looks very situational and I'm not impressed with sun never sets and great warpath either, but it seems all weak abilities are balanced with strong unique units and buildings.

Lap
Sep 17, 2010, 06:10 AM
ey people,
now my only point here would be, why wonder which civilization would be the strongest, isnt it all up to the players skill?...to be honest, in my opinion they are all verry balanced,

I see this failure of an argument brought out for every game. Then why even bother trying to balance the game then if it's all or mostly based on player skill?

To be honest, none of us have played the game, but more games come out imbalanced than well balanced so my money is on there being some initial issues that will get patched later.

Schuesseled
Sep 17, 2010, 06:35 AM
Yea, England will suck on Pangaeas. So will the Ottomans UA.

If you neglect your navy on a pangea you will get messed up.

However Englands abiltity will be completely pointless on maps like the great plains, maps where there is literraly no water.

Bibor
Sep 17, 2010, 06:39 AM
Having extra ships, units and gold for free can't really be a bad thing. Maybe they'll need to tweak the % a bit, but that's for future patches.

McDanny
Sep 17, 2010, 06:51 AM
The UA's all seem rather balanced, at least from where I'm standing. A Japanese/Aztec invasion may be imposing, but if you manage to repel it they haven't any decent economic benefits to fall back on. The only one that really struck me as weak is the Egyptian UA (it always amused me that Rameses went from two traits in Civ IV, to less than half a trait in Civ V :p). But, then again, since there are no other Industrious leaders any more you have no real direct competition for wonders, so a 20% bonus in Civ V will likely be much more effective than in Civ IV.

Celevin
Sep 17, 2010, 07:46 AM
I think people would better understand the French ability if you rephrased it:

French get a 100% boost towards getting Social policies for the first 50 turns of the game. After that the boost will obviously degrade at variable rates.

Other civs have to tech all the way to Philosophy, and then build a temple before they can raise their culture.

And nearly all Civ games will be essentially won or lost before you get out of the Medieval Era, so expiring with Steam Power is irrelevant. On higher lvls its typically won or lost by the end of the Classical Era, truth be told.

Monument is available to build from turn 1, and provides +2 culture for the city. France can build monuments, but it still holds that they don't have an overwhelming lead on culture. It's more that they can afford to do other things while others are catching up.

I find the arguing over the UAs funny, and I fell victim to it at one point as well. If social policies are dwarfing UAs, why so much debate that one civ will gain such a huge advantage? I feel that the UAs are mainly flavour, but don't actually offer that much change in power compared to policies, wonders, and everything else. The reason UAs are good is because you don't need to wait to get them, you have them from turn 1.

Infiltrator
Sep 17, 2010, 07:58 AM
I think the Ottomans have the worst UA while the german first UU is unimpressive (if it's just cheaper).

Stefanskantine
Sep 17, 2010, 08:05 AM
The only one that really struck me as weak is the Egyptian UA (it always amused me that Rameses went from two traits in Civ IV, to less than half a trait in Civ V :p). But, then again, since there are no other Industrious leaders any more you have no real direct competition for wonders, so a 20% bonus in Civ V will likely be much more effective than in Civ IV.

I would rate it as one of the better ones. As you mentioned, Egypt will be the only one getting a leg up on wonders. Get an early wonder for +culture, then beeline to that SP that also gives +wonder production to stack with it, and you should be cleaning up. You can have the confidence to plan a strat around wonder beelines, without worrying who the other civs in your random game might be. Egypt will be the primary builder Civ of choice IMO.

SGRaaize
Sep 17, 2010, 08:12 AM
From the gameplay footage, I thought just the Samurai had the "fight at full strength even when wounded" ability?

Every single Japanese unit, actually, freaking awesome

WeaselSlapper
Sep 17, 2010, 08:14 AM
Am I the only one that finds it ironic that Washington's ability is best paired with Monarchy (total of -75% for tile purchase)?

Armada88
Sep 17, 2010, 08:33 AM
The Japanese ability doesn't sound that great, they're a pretty one-sided militaristic civ and the UA will be irrelevant so long as you can stay ahead of them tech-wise. I like the Russian Siberian Riches because you get a sustained bonus throughout the game with horses, iron and uranium.

I guess it depends the way you play the game though. I'm looking forward to the Greeks and Romans and a huge advantage early on with the 2 early UU's

Dark_Jedi06
Sep 17, 2010, 08:41 AM
Am I the only one that finds it ironic that Washington's ability is best paired with Monarchy (total of -75% for tile purchase)?

"I did not fight against George III to become George I."

:lol:

Silverwave
Sep 17, 2010, 09:18 AM
I find the arguing over the UAs funny, and I fell victim to it at one point as well. If social policies are dwarfing UAs, why so much debate that one civ will gain such a huge advantage? I feel that the UAs are mainly flavour, but don't actually offer that much change in power compared to policies, wonders, and everything else. The reason UAs are good is because you don't need to wait to get them, you have them from turn 1.

Wait. You do know we're arguing here only to pass time until release, right? :crazyeye:

generalwar
Sep 17, 2010, 09:25 AM
Thats kind of the whole point.

You need to look at all the civs unique abilities - UA, UUs and UB before considering how good or bad they are.

Even then, I likely wont ever play Germany or Ottomans in Civ 5.

Agree. Looks like 2K was trying to make civ the most balanced strategy game and maybe they did. We'll see. BEcause every civ has or really good SA or UU's. Exactly 1 week away:blush:

Mannu
Sep 17, 2010, 09:35 AM
The Japanese ability doesn't sound that great, they're a pretty one-sided militaristic civ and the UA will be irrelevant so long as you can stay ahead of them tech-wise. I like the Russian Siberian Riches because you get a sustained bonus throughout the game with horses, iron and uranium.

I don't know, Greg was holding his own against French Riflemen in the streaming play session. This was on Immortal difficulty. It wasn't until Artillery and some unwise moves (to keep the action going) that he began to lose ground.

Arkangelus
Sep 17, 2010, 09:40 AM
An intersting side effect of the Russian one is that when it comes to the time for producing power for your cities, from what we've seen so far it looks like most are quite situational - requires a river for hydro plant, requires a desert for solar plant, etc. Russia has enough Uranium (potentially 12 from just ONE source) that they can just spam nuclear plants all over the place, and it was said in one of the articles that they dont melt down any more.

I do really like how Russia's traits combine, it seems to add a lot of flavour. The Krepost will result in expansion to sub-optimal tiles a lot faster, meaning Russia will be realistically big and empty, and the cheap Soviet-era nuclear plant knockoffs everywhere amuses me :p

Psycedilla
Sep 17, 2010, 09:45 AM
Looks like people forget that its not onlt the sp bonuses with france. you spend ALOT less gold on tile expansion, hell, if you dont build any culture building in secondary city's (i guess) they wont borderpop at all unless you buy some tiles. so its still basicly a free monument in each city for borderpop's sake. And when steam power comes around, you probably got the tiles you want, or atleast got culture up and runing and dont need the bonus after all.

and after, you UU comes and youll expand with the gun, not the pen.
France can get levraged on alot a was, because you basicly get sp progress and tiles for minimal effort, then you can focus on say, military/gold/science etcetc. Why is everyone hooked up in france beeing SP whores?

me are gonna probably gonna play france to soften the transition to ciV. It looks like if you do a small error with them, its not the end of the world

Seven05
Sep 17, 2010, 10:02 AM
So tell me, if you play as Germany and the host disables Barbarians, does that mean you're just out of luck and end up with no UA?
If you play on a map without water it sucks to be England, or a map with no City states as Greece, late era starts wreck France, etc. Don't balance for MP if it means breaking the game for everybody, let them make MP mods.

One of the neglected benefits of the Ottoman and German abilities might be the economic side effect: You earn money by defeating barbarians. Not much, but it is difficult yet to judge how 25 gold effect your economy. Plus, you could immediately disband your new conquered barbarian units getting you additional gold.
Yeah, if a single trade rout normally generates 1 gpt in the early game (above the cost of road maintenance) that 25g is like 25 extra turns from that early trade route.

More importantly, and seemingly completely overlooked, is the benefit of not having to produce those units. If I play as gemerany and capture three barb units that's three warriors that I don't have to build. Or, that's three warriors that my neighbors do have to build to keep up with me. That can add up to a lot of hammers over the course of the early game, hammers than can be used to build all sorts of stuff because they weren't used on military units. It will be quite possible to close the early game as Germany with a substantial advantage even without going for any kind of early rush.

For the Ottomans their ability has never been really explained, just that they have a chance to capture barb boats which may end up being stupidly easy with ranged attacks, or it may not involve combat at all.

Looks like people forget that its not onlt the sp bonuses with france. you spend ALOT less gold on tile expansion, hell, if you dont build any culture building in secondary city's (i guess) they wont borderpop at all unless you buy some tiles. so its still basicly a free monument in each city for borderpop's sake. And when steam power comes around, you probably got the tiles you want, or atleast got culture up and runing and dont need the bonus after all.
That will depends on how the culture expansion works. If the per tile 'cost' increases rapidly that extra 2 culture per turn won't mate much after the first few tiles. Late in the game you have no advantage there and from Grega example game it looks like their will be a lot of unowned tiles out there in the industrial era.

rastak
Sep 17, 2010, 10:13 AM
The strat guide mentions the Ottomans can capture Barb boats, get 25 gold then disband them for more gold.

Silverwave
Sep 17, 2010, 10:21 AM
And when steam power comes around, you probably got the tiles you want, or atleast got culture up and runing and dont need the bonus after all.


So, why didn't they let keep the bonus until end of game if it doesn't matter much (since SPs will have granted similar bonuses) ? I don't think it would have been too much, no? Maybe it would.

Psycedilla
Sep 17, 2010, 10:31 AM
That will depends on how the culture expansion works. If the per tile 'cost' increases rapidly that extra 2 culture per turn won't mate much after the first few tiles. Late in the game you have no advantage there and from Grega example game it looks like their will be a lot of unowned tiles out there in the industrial era.

True. I guess its either a fixed cost, since, after all, you only get 1 tile, instead of a increased cost. my guess its something aline with xp rates in civ iv. but maybe with a little more gentle slope. but then again, this is only theoricrafting.

Anyway, i think borderpops are acctualy a big part of france's UA