I was browsing through the manual (http://downloads.2kgames.com/civ5/site13/community/feature_manual/Civ_V_Manual_English_v1.0.pdf) when i found this on page 157:

http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/3618/kremlincathedral.jpg (http://img96.imageshack.us/i/kremlincathedral.jpg/)

I really hope it's just a placeholder icon and that it's correct in-game, this would be a really silly mistake otherwise. Maybe they first had the cathedral in the game and decided to swap it for the Kremlin, and didn't bother changing the icon in the manual.

If I am not wrong this was also the case in Civ IV...hmm.

It's a part of the Kremlin

Like Big Ben is part of the Palace of Westminster ;) And they didn't called it "Palace of Westminster" :p

It's a part of the KremlinIt's not. I suppose it was selected because it's a nice colourful picture, but indeed St. Basil's Catherdral is not even in the Kremlin. There are four other cathedrals inside the Kremlin walls, but not this one.Like Big Ben is part of the Palace of Westminster ;) And they didn't called it "Palace of Westminster" :pIt's not the same. Big Ben is a particular tower and they're calling it just that (not getting into the argument of whether it's just the big bell or the whole tower). Of course they could've called it "The Clock Tower of Westminster Palace", but calling that tower Big Ben is not wrong. The analogy would've worked if the wonder was Buckingham Palace and they put a picture of Big Ben. Here they're using a picture of something that just isn't part of the Kremlin.

The Kremlin and St Basil's are both in Red Square but are not the same building

Actually, Big Ben is only the bell inside St Stephen's Tower, so calling the Tower you can see 'Big Ben' is wrong ;)

It's not. I suppose it was selected because it's a nice colourful picture, but indeed St. Basil's Catherdral is not even in the Kremlin. There are four other cathedrals inside the Kremlin walls, but not this one.

Indeed, they're certainly close by but on the opposite sides of the red square. That's like having The White House as a wonder and showing a picture of the Washington Monument. It's certainly close by but it's not the same building/complex. Medvedev doesn't have his office in a cathedral and Obama doesn't lead the country from atop the Washington Monument (although it would admittedly be pretty cool if he did).

Btw I would say calling the clock tower Big Ben is fine, since if you for example look up Big Ben on Wikipedia the first thing you see is a bunch of pictures of the tower, and the only picture of the bell is far down in the article and of poor quality.
Anyway, arguing about the Big Ben is just being anal, while this is simply incorrect.

The Kremlin and St Basil's are both in Red Square but are not the same building
Should've just called the wonder Red Square. You get proper name, can use St Basil as pic, it has military theme by itself and it's connected to the Kremlin.

Well, IMHO they just thinked "It is in Moscow, so it will do" :p

Chichen Itza is far worse, btw ;)

Interestingly enough, half the google search images for Kremlin comes up with St. Basils Cathedral. It's technically wrong, but it's a commonly repeated error.

Interestingly enough, half the google search images for Kremlin comes up with St. Basils Cathedral. It's technically wrong, but it's a commonly repeated error.

Doesn't make it right though. Bad info is bad.

Well, IMHO they just thinked "It is in Moscow, so it will do" :p

Chichen Itza is far worse, btw ;)OK. I'll bite. First of all, the fact that another wonder may also not have the ideal icon, does not make that it's right for Kremlin to be depicted by the wrong icon. So what? Another wrong doesn't make this right.

Secondly, Chitchen Itza is represented by the Temple of Kukulkan, which is arguably the center of Chitchen Itza and its most prominent building. So they selected a prominent building inside Chitchen Itza to represent the whole. This is quite logical since it's iconic for the site and how else would you represent a whole historical complex in a meaningful miniature?

If they had selected a piece of Kremlin wall to represent the Kremlin, I'm sure Motor-Ola wouldn't have created this thread.

It is still a misgiven name/misgiven pic ( one of the two options :p ). That was my point ;)

Doesn't make it right though. Bad info is bad.

I know. But it's a more understandable mistake.

The Kremlin and St Basil's are both in Red Square but are not the same buildingYep. They're very closely associated, though, even on the UNESCO (http://whc.unesco.org/en/list/545/) page, where it says "Kremlin and Red Square" and... shows the cathedral.

It's not exactly right... but the same as with Big Ben; tourist worldview. And bothers me about as much as the Big Ben: One of the things were everybody knows it's not exactly right, but you've got that association anyway.

Civ isn't perfect historical accuracy; it's going for memorable, evocative iconics - and that it certainly does.

Cheers, LT.

I swear using St. Basil's Cathedral for the Kremlin must be some kind of commercial inside joke.

I swear using St. Basil's Cathedral for the Kremlin must be some kind of commercial inside joke.

Well, seeing people get so worked up over what is essentially a trivial and tiny thing in a game is rather amusing.

The Kremlin is the actual fortress and there are many other views of it that would have been more suitable (View from across the river or from one of the bridges, for example). Also, the Kremlin is not IN Red Square. It borders (and forms) one side of Red Square. The main entrance is not on Red Square either.

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Travel/Russia/Moscow/Highlights/KremlinAndBoat.jpg

It is most likely, as stated earlier, an example of the Kremlin is in Moscow and St. Basil's is often a symbol for Moscow, hence it was substituted. From an authenticity point of view, they should have actually shown the walls of the Kremlin with the golden domes of the churches within.

The Kremlin is the actual fortress and there are many other views of it that would have been more suitable (View from across the river or from one of the bridges, for example). Also, the Kremlin is not IN Red Square. It borders (and forms) one side of Red Square. The main entrance is not on Red Square either.

It is most likely, as stated earlier, an example of the Kremlin is in Moscow and St. Basil's is often a symbol for Moscow, hence it was substituted. From an authenticity point of view, they should have actually shown the walls of the Kremlin with the golden domes of the churches within.

Considering the wonder's effect, showing the fortress/walls should've been the way to go.

It's such a shame that a company with so much experience of doing games based on world history keeps making this same mistake again. It isn't that hard to open wiki and type "the Kremlin" in the search bar before having an artist make this shiny little picture of St. Basils.

OK. I'll bite. First of all, the fact that another wonder may also not have the ideal icon, does not make that it's right for Kremlin to be depicted by the wrong icon. So what? Another wrong doesn't make this right.

Secondly, Chitchen Itza is represented by the Temple of Kukulkan, which is arguably the center of Chitchen Itza and its most prominent building. So they selected a prominent building inside Chitchen Itza to represent the whole. This is quite logical since it's iconic for the site and how else would you represent a whole historical complex in a meaningful miniature?

If they had selected a piece of Kremlin wall to represent the Kremlin, I'm sure Motor-Ola wouldn't have created this thread.

Indeed, the icon for the Sixtine Chapel is just two hands pointing at each other, and I don't feel the need to create a thread about that (it IS kind of a lame icon though).

Indeed, they're certainly close by but on the opposite sides of the red square. That's like having The White House as a wonder and showing a picture of the Washington Monument. It's certainly close by but it's not the same building/complex. Medvedev doesn't have his office in a cathedral and Obama doesn't lead the country from atop the Washington Monument (although it would admittedly be pretty cool if he did).

The Kremlin is also synonymous with the government of Russia and the heart of Moscow. If you had a wonder called "The National Mall" and represented it with the Washington Monument to me that would be very similar.

Yeah they did it in CivIV too..it is part of the Kremlin iirc. The actual Kremlin building is nowhere near as cool looking, so I can see why they put the cathedral as the icon in both games.

The Kremlin and St Basil's are both in Red Square but are not the same building

It's a weak defense, but isn't it fair to say that St. Basil's is the most recognizable Russian structure, and the Kremlin has often been synonymous with the Russian government, so they're both more symbolic of Russia in general :crazyeye:

EDIT: Scaramanga beat me to the explanation...

Indeed, the icon for the Sixtine Chapel is just two hands pointing at each other, and I don't feel the need to create a thread about that (it IS kind of a lame icon though).

It's a pair of hands on a chiseled background, does the trick.

(Is chiseled the word? What's english for "agrietado"?)

It's such a shame that a company with so much experience of doing games based on world history keeps making this same mistake again. It isn't that hard to open wiki and type "the Kremlin" in the search bar before having an artist make this shiny little picture of St. Basils.

Doesn't that suggest that they're aware of the confusion but have chosen to go the "romantic" way for the sake of aesthetics?

It's such a shame that a company with so much experience of doing games based on world history keeps making this same mistake again. It isn't that hard to open wiki and type "the Kremlin" in the search bar before having an artist make this shiny little picture of St. Basils.

That's what I thought was so weird. And it's not just an icon they're making, it's the in-game 3D-model, a painting for the completion, a blurb probably read by a voice actor, and some misc info for the civilopedia. Surely they must know which building is which.

Doesn't that suggest that they're aware of the confusion but have chosen to go the "romantic" way for the sake of aesthetics?
In this case they should have made a picture of the Spasskaya tower instead.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_vtYcXfggQbA/R5SDyJpTDzI/AAAAAAAAA9g/Z5H46xTReak/s1600/kremlin_spasskaya_1600.jpg
http://i1.trekearth.com/photos/6411/pict1604.jpg

It isn't as widely known in the West as St. Basils, but at least it's the most recognizable (real) part of the Kremlin and very well know in Russia. I'm also sure that people in the West have at least seen it on some photos too.

As someone has already pointed out this is a minor issue, but being partly Russian I don't like the fact that two famous Russian wonders are confused in a popular strategy game about history.

I have suspicion that this issue is caused by neoliberal stance of most of civ's developers. The Kremlin is not there for the same reason left-wing leaders are not there.

I have suspicion that this issue is caused by neoliberal stance of most of civ's developers. The Kremlin is not there for the same reason left-wing leaders are not there.
http://www.memedepot.com/uploads/0/207_not_sure_if_serious.jpg
They were there before. "Jon Shafer is right-wing" is hardly a plausible reason for The Kremlin issue.

Heavens, are we talking of the same guys that putted ...

http://www.civfanatics.com/images/civ4/info_center/buildings/internet.jpg

...as the internet project symbol in Civ IV? The ones that called the communism tech "Utopia" in the XML files of the same game? Those guys are "right wing" ?

:rotfl: