http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/images/greatgeneral.jpgWhile the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we are running a series of ten games called the Hall of Fame Challenge Series. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings of one of the games will be counted towards the Challenge.

(*) Please read the >> HOF rules << (http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/rules.php)BEFORE playing!

Settings:

Victory Condition: Religious (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
Difficulty: Deity
Starting Era: Ancient
Map Size: Standard
Map Type: Any
Speed: Quick
Civ: Any
Opponents: Any
Version: 3.19.003
Date: 19th September 2010 to 19th January 2011
Must not play as Inca.

The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

Religious Victory? What's that? Diplomatic with a twist?

Religious Victory? What's that? Diplomatic with a twist?


Yes, it is a Diplomatic Victory via The Apostolic Palace Great Wonder which opens up the Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory resolution (shortened to "Religious Victory" in the HoF).

Just search for "The Apostolic Palace" for scores of threads on the subject of winning a "Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory".

There have also been a few Deity level Religious Victory Gauntlets that may have useful information for Winning a Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory, but none of them was at Quick speed like this Challenge is. A "Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory" at Quick speed is quite different from Epic and Marathon speeds, but not quite as different from Normal speed.

G-Minor-70 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=317275)

G-Minor-95 (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=362507)

Both of the above Deity Gauntlets were at Epic speed. I'm not aware of any other Deity level Religious Victory Gauntlets (at any speed).

Sun Tzu Wu

Yes, it is a Diplomatic Victory via The Apostolic Palace Great Wonder which opens up the Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory resolution (shortened to "Religious Victory" in the HoF).

As always, many thanks to you Sun Tzu Wu for your wealth of information.

Nice score Sun Tzu Wu; if it's beat, and that's a big if, I imagine it will only be by a few turns.

I took your advice, read through the forums and found a bunch of great info. Specifically, the Civ4 reference guide that lists leader's traits in thorough detail, and the notion of gifting an AI a missionary when they are running theocracy.

I played this challenge but couldn't get the votes. I finished the Oracle t33, the AP t54, GP for golden age t60, all missionaries spread t78, vote t83 and all AIs abstained.

I had open borders as soon as possible, so that adjustment was +1, +2. I gifted techs and gold so the trade bonus was maxed at +4.

I played Mansa against Asoka, Gandhi, Hat, Ramses, Lincoln, Zara.

Couldn't get the votes. Any thoughts?

Just Some Explanation of my recent Submission:


Nice score Sun Tzu Wu; if it's beat, and that's a big if, I imagine it will only be by a few turns.


It was a good Turn/Date (t73 80 BC), but it could have been much better. Note that the best Turn/Date Win prior to Challenge-III-10 with the same settings is t57 720 BC.

One problem with my Game was not getting the +1 Diplomacy for being at Peace until t60. I never paid attention to that Diplomacy bonus until t50, prior to my first RL DV vote in t58. I was certain that the Diplomatic bonus for years (turns) of Peace would be no more than 50 turns after the start. Maybe its somewhat random.

Missed the t65 Vote because Ramesses II converted from Hinduism to the TAP Religion when he had 5 Population of each Religion. Usually an AI will not convert to a Religion until it has 5 more Population following it than the current State Religion. I converted three more of his Cities to Hinduism in t64, but he must have had a State Religion conversion in turn 62 which prevented him from converting to Hinduism until t67 rather than t65. Ramesses II voted for himself, Hatshepsut and Lincoln Abstained resulting in about 60% of the Vote when 75% is the required minimum for winning.

Getting the t72 RL DV was almost certain with Open Borders to all Civs except Zara Yaqob on t18 and OB with Zara Yaqob on t19. One gets +1 for 25t of Open Borders and +2 for 50t of Open Borders. Thus, for this Vote I'd be getting +1 for Peace, +2 for Open Borders +4 for Fair Trading for a visible Diplomacy total of +7. Add +1 to +2 for hidden Leader Attitude (except Ramesses II = 0) and that takes all Civs over +8, the minimum needed for an AI to vote for the Player's RL DV resolution Vote. I was also running Organized Religion for more than 30t and both Hatshepsut and Ramesses II were also running OR for at least 30t also, netting an additional +3 Diplomacy each for the Favorite Civic bonus. The Vote was Unanimous this time.


I took your advice, read through the forums and found a bunch of great info. Specifically, the Civ4 reference guide that lists leader's traits in thorough detail, and the notion of gifting an AI a missionary when they are running theocracy.

I played this challenge but couldn't get the votes. I finished the Oracle t33, the AP t54, GP for golden age t60, all missionaries spread t78, vote t83 and all AIs abstained.

I had open borders as soon as possible, so that adjustment was +1, +2. I gifted techs and gold so the trade bonus was maxed at +4.

I played Mansa against Asoka, Gandhi, Hat, Ramses, Lincoln, Zara.

Couldn't get the votes. Any thoughts?


Leader to Play:

I prefer playing Gandhi for Quick and Normal speed Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory games. Gandhi's biggest advantage is his unique unit, the Fast Worker. A Fast Worker can move onto a Flat Land Forest and start Chopping it in the same turn without Roads. Gandhi's Spiritual trait results in no turns lost to Anarchy. His Philosophical does increase GPP generation, but it isn't that critical. More important is Gandhi's starting Technologies of Mining and Mysticism. Mining for Gems or Gold Mines and Mysticism for earlier access to Polytheism -> Priesthood and The Oracle. Mansa Musa is a good Leader to play too, but I like him as an Opponent, since he is always willing to trade Technologies, quickly spreads his Religion to other Civs and will often Vote for your RL DV Vote with just +6 visible Diplomacy.

Opponents:

Your Opponents Asoka, Gandhi, Hatshepsut, Ramesses II, Lincoln, Zara Yaqob are good, but I prefer Mansa Musa, Hatshepsut, Ramesses II, Zara Yaqob, Lincoln and Frederick. Notice that none of these Opponents start with Mysticism. Thus they can't beat you to the first three Religions. Ideally, I like to get Judaism and Christianity. It's nice to not depend on an AI spreading a non-TAP Religion, so you can spam a Civ that has converted to the TAP Religion to get them to convert to the non-TAP Religion. Also, Hatshepsut and Ramesses II have Organized Religion as a Favorite Civic and you will be running Organized Religion for about the last half of the Game. Mansa Musa's good Opponent qualities are mentioned above. All these Leaders have a hidden +1 Diplomatic Attitude, except Ramesses II with 0 and Zara Yaqob with +2. Gandhi would also be +2, but we are playing him, so he can't be our Opponent as well.

Research:

1) Beeline Writing for earliest possible signing of Open Borders with all Civs.

Polytheism -> Priesthood -> Writing (Open Borders).

2) Allow Forest Chopping.

Bronze Working

3) Allow Marble bonus (when available) and building Missionaries with Monasteries.

Masonry -> Monotheism -> complete The Oracle (Theology)

4) Get +50% bonus for Chopping and something to trade for Alphabet

Mathematics

5) Become a Technologies broker to lead in Tech or at least stay close to the leaders.

Code of Laws -> Civil Service (Bureaucracy)

6) Research whatever the AI is unlikely to Research to trade to him.

Drama, Paper, etc.

Rest of the Strategy:

1) Build three more TAP Religion Missionaries (your TAP Religion will likely be Christianity)

2) Complete The Apostolic Palace using Forest Chops (preferably with +50% Math bonus)

3) Build two final TAP Religion Missionaries for last two nearest AI Leaders and spread them before or on ...

4) Turn before first RL DV Resolution: Must spread TAP Religion to all Civs on this turn or earlier. Last chance to improve Diplomacy.

5) Pick the RL DV Resolution and cast Votes for yourself.

Goals to achieve before the RL DV Resolution:

1) Earliest possible Open Borders with All AI Opponents. Must send out 1-2 Warriors/Scouts to meet all AIs.

2) Locate all I Opponent's Cities prior to spreading TAP Religion to one of them.

3) Assuming good Diplomacy with Hatshepsut or Ramesses II and sharing Organized Religion for extra Diplomacy and few negatives, Spam the one that has its own Religion and spread TAP religion to most of his Cities, but keep well below 75% of all TAP Religion Votes, since that would invalid a RL DV Resolution Vote.

4) Failing #3 above, spam another AI with at least +8 visible Diplomacy in same manner.

5) For AI Opponents that are unlikely to Vote for you or those whose Vote is uncertain, spread TAP Religion to their least Populous City.

There are more minor tips for when things go wrong, but the above should suffice for now.

Good luck!

Sun Tzu Wu

This was my second play with this start, so it is invalid. I think this offers a lot of insight, while at the same time is a bit misleading.

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad265/shulec/Civ4ScreenShot0027.jpg

This was my second play with this start, so it is invalid. I think this offers a lot of insight, while at the same time is a bit misleading.


Very impressive turn/date of 61/560 BC, despite the Game being ineligible for HoF submission.

Yes, it is an excellent illustration of the point that you can Win either or both of Hatshepsut and Ramesses II Votes and lose all the others, yet Win the Game. This is aided by Hatshepsut and Ramesses II conversion to early Religions and the Player spreading the TAP Religion to them a few turns later and with some luck sharing Organized Religion for 20+ turns for and extra +2 Diplomacy and gaining the RL DV Win. Spamming a few TAP Religion Missionaries and giving them to Hatshepsut and Ramesses II can help ensure the needed Votes.

Sun Tzu Wu

This is aided by Hatshepsut and Ramesses II conversion to early Religions

This is the most important part of this strategy, and it is luckier/better to have Ramesses found Judaism so he runs OR the longest. You need the extra +1 diplo since he does not have the hidden diplo point.

The reason I couldn't use the first attempt was the oracle was built before me. I have been burned trying squeeze BW in before the oracle for early pre-chops. Qin Shu Huang is industrious, so research usually lags behind the hammers for the oracle. By skipping BW in the second time through, the oracle and OR finished on the same turn.

This is aided by Hatshepsut and Ramesses II conversion to early Religions ...



This is the most important part of this strategy, and it is luckier/better to have Ramesses found Judaism so he runs OR the longest. You need the extra +1 diplo since he does not have the hidden diplo point.


In an earlier post, I said that I like to found Judaism and Christianity so that I have a guaranteed non-TAP Religion to spread. It would actually be better if Hatshepsut or Ramesses II founded Judaism. So, I'd revise my statement from "wanting to found Judaism and Christianity" to "wanting to found Hinduism and Christianity". The AI (hopefully Hatshepsut or Ramesses II) that the Player beats to Hinduism will likely continue on to Judaism. The AI that founds Hinduism (preferably not Hatshepsut or Ramesses II) will likely research Technologies that have greater potential benefits that another Religion founded Technology like Monotheism.


The reason I couldn't use the first attempt was the oracle was built before me. I have been burned trying squeeze BW in before the oracle for early pre-chops. Qin Shu Huang is industrious, so research usually lags behind the hammers for the oracle. By skipping BW in the second time through, the oracle and OR finished on the same turn.


In one of my first attempts, an AI completed The Oracle in turn 25, well over 10 turns before I could get free Theology from it.

I don't think that any of the AIs with the Industrious trait are very good for this Challenge. The Industrious trait just doesn't seem to have that much value at Quick or even Normal speed. It doesn't take long to complete Mathematics after Theology via The Oracle at Quick or even Normal speed. Mathematics provides +50% Hammers for Forest Chops which almost makes up for lacking the Industrious trait.

Gandhi's Fast Worker and starting Technologies Mining and Mysticism have great synergy with Quick or even Normal speed Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory. The key is a start with Riverside Grassland Gems and founding one's Capital on a 3F tile or have a 3F tile and found the Capital on a 2H (PH, P Ivory, P Stone, or P Marble) or 3H (PH Stone, or PH Marble) Tile. Thus no time is wasted researching Agriculture, Hunting or Animal Husbandry to improve useless Food Tiles. Winning earlier is better than Winning with a higher Firaxis Score.

Also never found a second City. Hammers going into a Settler could go into The Oracle or The Apostolic Palace or TAP Religion Missionaries.

Sun Tzu Wu

Also never found a second City.

Agreed; I never have time to do that anyways, but I was wondering, especially since OCC (One City Challenge) is allowed in this game, does OCC have any hidden bonuses.

I know you're allowed 4 (or 5) National Wonders instead of the normal 2, not that they are needed in this game. Are their other bonuses or penalties associated with this option?

While we're at it, is there a thread that details the bonuses and penalties to all the options. For example, selecting 'no vassal states' lowers the cost of maintenance in some cities by removing the 'colony' fee. And, I have been wondering about the 'no city razing' option. By selecting that, it seems to remove any plunder from pillaging when you take a city.

I have searched for a thread that might list the implications of all the options but have not found one.

Anyone?

Agreed; I never have time to do that anyways, but I was wondering, especially since OCC (One City Challenge) is allowed in this game, does OCC have any hidden bonuses.


No, never select OCC, because you might actually want to build a City to give to an AI. When I said never build a second City, I meant for your own use in an attempt to Win the Game sooner by building Missionaries in one City and The Apostolic Palace in the Capital for example.


I know you're allowed 4 (or 5) National Wonders instead of the normal 2, not that they are needed in this game. Are their other bonuses or penalties associated with this option?


As you mentioned, I'm not aware of any National Wonder that will help one Win a Religious Victory (Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory) sooner.

The only penalty that will really hurt (in only a few games though) is not being able to build a Settler to found a City next to an AI to liberate to the AI for a trading Diplomatic bonus (in case you have no Technology to give to this particular AI for the trading Diplomatic bonus). Building a Settler to give to an AI for Diplomatic points is an option to be used only when necessary.


While we're at it, is there a thread that details the bonuses and penalties to all the options. For example, selecting 'no vassal states' lowers the cost of maintenance in some cities by removing the 'colony' fee. And, I have been wondering about the 'no city razing' option. By selecting that, it seems to remove any plunder from pillaging when you take a city.

I have searched for a thread that might list the implications of all the options but have not found one.

Anyone?


I'm not sure there is such an article. You will probably need to search for particular options. Or just ask about a particular option, like "No Barbarians". At Deity level, its almost always easier to Win a Peaceful Game with "No Barbarians" than with either Barbarians or Raging Barbarians. Barbarians at lower level are so pathetic it does matter that much which of the Barbarian options are or are not selected.

Sun Tzu Wu

Keys to an early Quick Speed Religious Victory, in order of priority.

1. Missionary Spread The most time limiting step is to spread Christianity (or other AP religion) to all of the civilizations.
2. Early Oracle The earlier you get the Oracle, the earlier you can build missionaries.
3. Spread Christianity to Hatsheput She will give you a majority of your votes. She will usually found an early religion and will usually spread your religion through her empire. The sooner she gets it, the faster she can spread it.
4. Spread Christianity to Ramesses II He is not as important, but probably needed to come close to the 720 BC top spot. If he founds Judiasm, he will probably give you his votes since you will get +3 favorite civic diplo bonus faster, possibly in time for an early vote.
5. Being centrally located on the map If you are at one end of the map, you will have more very distant AIs and few very close AI (obviously).
6. Settling on a productive tile Settling on a two hammer or 3 food tile helps get to the Oracle faster.
7. Settling on a site with powerful tiles in BFC This is actually the most important key, since keys 1-6 are all dramatically affected by your BFC. You need a lot of hammers (worked and chopped), plenty of food and a lot of commerce.
8. Goody huts They are not essential, but help tremendously whether it be gold, maps, scouts or techs (unless you get a non-essential tech).


The following is my strategy for using Qin Shi Huang.

I want to offer a different approach than STW. I have played a number of games with Ghandi following his strategy. I found that I was constantly deficient with food if I didn't research Agriculture. This in turn leads to a deficiency in hammers if your cities stay at population 3 or 4 for most of the game. Without Agr, I couldn't use gold mines due to their lack of food. As a result, you suffer from a lack of hammers when using gem mines. Hammers must come from chopping, which the fast workers are better equipped to do. In my Ghandi games, I started researching agriculture and found I had better results than when didn't research it. However, I found Qin Shi Huang gave me better opportunities for challenging the 720 BC victory. BTW, nice game STW.:D That is an awesome victory date.

STW mentions that Mansa Musa works well, undoubtedly, due to his Spiritual and Financial traits, and starting techs.

Starting position BFC:
Settle on plains hill, plains marble/stone, bananas, grassland pigs/cows/sheep, sugar, riverside calender resources with +2 commerce. The best starting spots are 1.) Riverside marble hill 2.) Riverside stone hill 3.) Riverside gold, but only if additional two gold in bfc.

It is necessary to have all of these to shoot for the best times.
2 Gold (or 1 gold and one gem)
1 Corn
1-2 FP
1-2 +3 hammer tiles (non-forested hills, stone/marble)

Riverside tiles are best for the extra commerce per tile. Settling on the riverside tile to gets marble access and happiness and health bonus without needing the road (only for bonus tiles also on the river.)

My BFC
Commerce Tiles I believe the most important thing is to have two golds. Two gems or a gold and a gem doesn't work as well because they offer fewer hammers. One riverside gold is better to get happiness without a road if you can settle on the riverside. If you get three golds, settle on the riverside gold for a +2 hammer and +2 coin city tile.

Food tiles Only one corn is needed. Ideally riverside (for +1 commerce and +1 food with irrigated). Two corns are ideal, but maps with two corn and two gold are few and far between. Riverside rice or wheat are good. Farmed flood plains are better that farmed non-irrigated rice. Non irrigated wheat is so-so. If only one corn in BFC, a second farm resource tile or 1-2 flood plains are needed. These high food tiles allow you grow and support high hammer tiles at pop 6-7.

Hammer tiles Your initial commerce tiles provide hammers. You need to have 1-2 tiles that can be worked prior to BW. Mine (or quarry of you have masonry) marble and stone and non-forested plains or grassland hills.

Ace in the hole tile Oasis. This provides an extra commerce as well as irrigation. It will be worked before you have a worker and before you farm you second food tile.

Not such an ace in the hole tile Marble. QSH does not need it, but settle on it if you can. Ghandi and Mansa Musa need it, but really need to settle on it unless connected by rivers.

I have attached a somewhat realistic, idealistic start, and the save if anyone wants to practice. (Created by Worldbuilder)

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad265/shulec/Civ4ScreenShot0028.jpg

Research:
Mysticism, Polytheism, Preisthood, Wheel, Writing, Masony, Monotheism, Bronze Working, Mathematics, Alphabet (partial), Aesthetics. If you meet everybody very quickly and have a few close neighbors from the start, skip the wheel, the AI will be close enough that the roads aren't that helpful. I feel building a few roads out of city helps get my missionaries out quicker, especially if there is rough terrain outside your city. I also find that I have two workers doing nothing once the non-forested hills are mined. I think it is more efficient to burn the research turns on the wheel to get those missionaries out faster on those roads. I would research the wheel before writing. You won't get +2 for open borders if you are going for a strong BC time. If you get AH from a goody hut, go for writing immediately to open some borders. I research BW after Monotheism. With an Industrious leader, you don't need the chops for the Oracle. I've gotten burned delaying the Oracle to get BW earlier.

Diplo/tech trading:
See STW post for basics. Try not to trade Theology. The more you trade it, it will lower the diplo trade bonus when you gift it. Trade Meditation and don't trade for monarchy so you can bulb CoL with your Great Priest. Most likely, Hatty and Ramesses will be your votes. If anyone demands a tech, give it to them if they are not the worst enemy of Hatty or Ramesses. This is someone you may be able to get to vote for you. Don't gift or trade any techs not needed. The AI may beg for something like priesthood, and those are easy diplo points.

Build:
Worker #1
Warrior
Stonehenge for fail gold.
Once population hits 3, build worker #2
Oracle
Missionary
Missionary
AP/Missionary
Finish AP
Missionary
Missionary
Research/Add'l missionaries.

Civics/religion/anarchy
I switch to OR the turn I build the Oracle. I do not use slavery, unless I am desperate after building the AP. I switch to Christianity after I build a second missionary and can't build more. I switch to No State Religion once I build my last set of missionaries, unless someone is getting really peeved at me and I see a potential declaration coming. If there is a majority religion that can help me get enough votes, I will switch to it if I can.

I have worked my way up to 480 BC, targeting 760 BC. Mapfinder will find my way!

Keys to an early Quick Speed Religious Victory, in order of priority.


Great write up! Your plan is excellent and would be better for Players looking for their first somewhat early Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory. It may also be optimal for a shot at the #1 slot given the right start. I must admit that Industrious Leaders like Qin Shi Huang and Bismarck may have an edge over Gandhi depending on the start. Gandhi needs Gems rather than Gold; without Agriculture or Hunting, Gold isn't that good of a Tile to have. Due to Gandhi's lack of the Industrious trait, he needs more Forests or early Mathematics.

Regarding Mansa Musa, he is a good Opponent to have. If I suggested playing Mansa Musa, I actually meant to suggest Mansa Musa as an opponent.


I have worked my way up to 480 BC, targeting 760 BC. Mapfinder will find my way!


shulec, allow me to give you a gentle warning: If you do manage to beat my t57/720 BC date, I'll be motivated to beat your game to regain my #1 position in this slot. You already have the #1 Game in Challenge #10; An excellent Date! I'm content with my #1 non-Challenge Game. There are 9 other challenges. ;)

Sun Tzu Wu

Wow, I'm impressed guys. Excellent write-ups. I'm a lowly noob--never even beaten Emperor before--but these explanations are so clear I'm tempted to try Challenge 10.

Or I could just play the bookie role and take bets? I sense some serious competition brewing. . . .

Wow, I'm impressed guys. Excellent write-ups. I'm a lowly noob--never even beaten Emperor before--but these explanations are so clear I'm tempted to try Challenge 10.


Thanks Sprenk! I may have missed a few good points in my description that shulec covers well in his. Read both and follow the one you think is best. I'm sure shulec's is more complete and he may have spent more time getting every nuance of meaning just right. shulec's guide is truly a work of art; not only is it true and accurate, it is presented very well and looks great!


Or I could just play the bookie role and take bets? I sense some serious competition brewing. . . .


That is up to shulec. If he does beat my #1 slot in the HOF (non-Challenge Game), I will try to regain the #1 slot. However, I'll view it as a friendly competition with mutual respect. Knowing shulec, I have no doubt that he will compete with the same attitude.

Sun Tzu Wu

That is up to shulec. If he does beat my #1 slot in the HOF (non-Challenge Game), I will try to regain the #1 slot. However, I'll view it as a friendly competition with mutual respect. Knowing shulec, I have no doubt that he will compete with the same attitude.
Sun Tzu Wu

I have found that I love Civ IV, but if I have no one to compete with, it loses its spark. I am not driven to play Civ V yet (I find it to be so-so), but once the Civ V HoF is running properly, it may inspire me. In the meantime, STW (unknowingly or not) is suggesting that if I displace any of his other #1 spots, he will have to top mine. Now that... is inspiring!;)

I'm a lowly noob--never even beaten Emperor before--but these explanations are so clear I'm tempted to try Challenge 10.

Our guides have hit their mark! I hope you are not the only one who gets this!

My latest: A 720 BC finish, started on a suboptimal map. Key to the game: Mansa Musa traded BW for Monothiesm and Preisthood. The Oasis was a savior for irrigating the farm and providing an extra commerce.

Starting Map:
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad265/shulec/Qin_Dei_Sta_Lak_Qui_Anc_4000-BC.jpg

End game capitol:
http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad265/shulec/Civ4ScreenShot0029.jpg

STW--You are still safe by about 9000 pts. (And the fact you got 720 BC with Joao makes your game better!)

Edit: After my test games, I forgot to click No Modified Assets. Rejected. Arrrrrrgggggghhhhh! But... not good news for that 720 BC time.

Introduction:

After shulec took the lead in this Challenge and also beat my turn 57, 720 BC HOF #1 Game, I decided to try Industrious leaders for the +50% Hammer bonus.

Gandhi still Recommended with heavily Forested Starts:

I still stand by my recommendation to use Gandhi, since both of his starting Technologies (Mysticism and Mining) are useful in getting to the Technology goals of Bronze Working for Forest Chopping and possibly Slavery and the key Technology of Theology needed to build the Apostolic Palace. But Gandhi's greatest asset is he has the only Unique Unit (other than Asoka) that is really useful for winning a Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory:

Fast Worker

Assumption: No Roads are being built in Forests to make it possible for any kind of Worker to come back later to chop the forest without any movement penalty (turns devoted to movement onto a Forest without being able to start/finish the Chop.

The Fast Worker can move from an Adjacent Plot to a flat Forest Plot and perform 1t of chopping all in the same turn. Thus, the Fast Worker can move onto a flat Plot with a prechopped Forest and complete the chop all in the same turn. Ordinary Workers take a full two turns to do this; one turn to move onto the Forest Plot and another turn to complete the Forest Chop. The Fast Workers also have an advantage over ordinary Workers in preChopping Forests on flat Plots in the first place. For the same reason that they can move onto a Forest in a flat Plot and perform 1t of chopping in the first turn. Fast Workers have no advantage over ordinary Workers when moving onto a Forest Hill, since both types of Workers are exhausted in just moving onto the Plot.

Caveat: Gandhi must have a Start that is heavily Forested and he must build at least three Fast Workers to chop those Forests. Also note that Bronze Working should be completed before your Workers run out of useful Tile Improvement work (such as Gems or Gold Mines, Corn Farms, Pig Pastures, Marble or Stone Quarries and possibly ordinary Mines and other Resource improvements). To increase the number of Forests beyond the BFC that can be chopped, increase your Capital's Culture faster. One cheap way to do this is research Polytheism first and be sure none of your opponent AIs start with Mysticism; this will virtually guarantee that you will be first to Polytheism and found Hinduism; this will give you a very early extra 5 Culture per turn, 7 Culture per turn when added to the 2 Culture per turn that your Palace generates. As a result, your Culture will expand to radius 3 very quickly and even radius 4.

The Two Major Methods of getting Theology Early:

In discussion of Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory Strategies, it must be noted that there are two viable ways of getting Theology early. Both methods require getting all prerequisites of Theology early as well.

Using The Oracle to get Theology early:

The most often used method involves building The Oracle and choosing Theology as the Technology it reveals. The major disadvantage of this approach is an AI completing The Oracle before the Player can complete it with all Theology prerequisites complete as well. (It is important to note that The Oracle can be completed on the same turn that the final prerequisite of Theology is completed.)

Bulbing a Great Prophet to get Theology early:

The major advantage of this Method is there is no direct way for AI to prevent this method from working, other than the obvious strategy of their capture of your Capital which rarely happens when choosing High Peace Weight opponents. This method also requires completion of Meditation prior to Theology, since a Great Prophet will bulb Meditation in preference to Theology and that must be avoided (Research or trade for Meditation before bulbing your Great Prophet). The biggest problem with this approach is being able to generate Great Prophet points fast enough to generate a Great Prophet by the time all prerequisites of Theology are complete, including Meditation. The best way to make this happen is choosing a Leader with the Philosophical trait, since that will double the base Great Prophet Point rate. To get actual Great Prophet points, one must either complete a Great Wonder that generates Great Prophet points or hire Priests which require the construction of one or more Temples. The Egyptian Civilization also has a unique building called an Obelisk (replaces Monument) that can hire two Priests without needing any Temples.

Viable Great Wonders for generating Great Prophet points include Stonehenge, The Oracle and even The Temple of Artemis (warning this Great Wonder also generates Great Merchant points, so you may get a Great Merchant, but it can generate a Great Prophet a bit faster, ignoring the Hammer cost).

Leaders with the spiritual trait are the best choice for the Temple building and Priest hiring strategy, since they get +100% Hammer rate for building Temples, but only one Priest can be hired per Temple, so the Philosophical trait is almost required as well, limiting Leader choice to Gandhi. The Obelisk can hire two Priests which is required, because none of the Egyptian Leaders has the Philosophical trait. Unfortunately, +2 Fpt will be required to feed each hired Priest, so one will need to have a extra irrigated Corn Farm worked just to support two Priests.

Stonehenge is the best choice for Great Prophet Point generation, since it requires only Mysticism to build and it is the cheapest Great Wonder. It can help to complete Masonry, if Stone is in the BFC and your initial Worker isn't too busy to build a Stone Quarry which will add a +100% bonus to base Hammers going into Stonehenge. Somewhat later, but not too late, The Oracle can be built providing a secondary Technology as well as additional, greatly needed Great Prophet points.

Secondary Technology provided by The Oracle:

The Oracle can provide a Secondary Technology when the Strategy calls for a Great Prophet to provide Theology. This Secondary Technology can be Aesthetics (interesting early Great Wonders - likely Red Herrings though), Mathematics (early +50% Chopping Hammer bonus), Alphabet (early Technology trading), Code of Laws (early Caste System) and even Metal Casting (early Forge - see "Holy Grail" below).

Industrious Leaders:

There are two major considerations when choosing a Leader for a Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory, Leader Traits and Civilization Starting Technologies. The most important of these is usually Leader Traits, but Starting Technologies is a huge factor too, because only the very Beginning of the Technology Tree must be researched and traded for to unlock The Apostolic Palace and its Diplomatic Victory Resolution (basically not much more than Theology and its prerequisites).

The only two starting Technologies that are essential to the Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory are Mysticism (The key Religious Techology) and Mining (prequisite to Bronze Working that unlocks Forest Chopping which is essential for all know viable strategies for an early Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory Win. Only four Leaders have both of these Starting Technologies, Asoka, Gandhi, Pacal II and Wong Kon. Of these, only Gandhi (Philosophical and Spiritual) and Pacal II (Expansive and Financial) have traits worth considering. None have the Industrious trait.

The Industrious Leaders are (A "*" follows a useful second Trait or Starting Technology; A "-" follows an utterly useless one):

Augustus (Imperialistic*, Fishing, Mining*)
Bismarck (Expansive*, Hunting, Mining*)
De Gaulle (Charismatic-, The Wheel, Agriculture)
Huayna Capac** (Financial*, Mysticism*, Agriculture)
Louis XIV (Creative*, The Wheel, Agriculture)
Qin Shi Huang (Protective-, Agriculture, Mining*)
Ramesses II (Spiritual*, The Wheel, Agriculture)
Roosevelt (Organized-, Fishing, Agriculture) - The combination- of Fishing and Agriculture lacks Synergy
Stalin (Aggressive-, Hunting, Mining*)

Bismarck is the best choice, since his Expansive trait allows +25% Hammer bonus when building Workers and at least three Workers should be build to help chop The Oracle and especially The Apostolic Palace.

**Huayna Capac is banned from use in a HOF Challenge or Gauntlet as a Player Leader, unless specifically permitted. Warning: Huayna Capac is banned from use as a Player Leader in this Challenge.

In this Gauntlet, I tried Augustus for his fast Settler builds and extra builds/Votes (but there's not enough time to build other required things at Quick speed) and Ramesses II for his Spiritual trait (no Anarchy, but saving three turns of Anarchy even at Quick speed is not enough to compensate for not having the Expansive trait).

Best Map for Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory:

Currently, the best map for Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory is the Lake Map that wraps around from West to East and visa versus. This effectively means that one's Capital is always "centered" in the East-West direction in the sense that one's Capital can be on the North or South edge of the Map, but never the East or West edge. This Map also has adequate Forests when one searches long enough. Also, for at least up to size Standard, the AI Leaders are close enough to be converted to the TAP Religion very early even at Quick speed. The Lake Map doesn't suffer from the sometimes very strange shapes found on Pangaea where some AI Leaders can be very hard to get to, even at Epic speed.

The Holy Grail Strategy of the Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory:

An effective means of generating a Great Engineer shortly after Theology is completed that can rush The Apostolic Palace, completing it in a single turn. Rushing the The Apostolic Palace is trivial; it is generating the Great Engineer soon enough to be competitive to the traditional method of chopping The Apostolic Palace that is hard, if not impossible; hence the term "Holy Grail".

Sun Tzu Wu

Nice game STW! I hope you toiled over it as long I did for the 760 BC time!

I am disappointed by the fact that there have been few submitted games for this one. I relate to those intimidated by the deity level, as I passed up the first deity religious gauntlet thinking that it was out of reach because it was a deity game. Deity religious game games are actually easier than lower levels because the AI rex so fast and come to you and they can spread the religion like wildfire that can help (and hinder) too. The only difference is the Oracle can go really early. The AI teching super fast can hurt with regards to getting +4 trade bonus, but it can also help. In one of my games, I delayed Bronze Working and Mansa Musa got Alphabet super early and traded BW to me.

Currently, the best map for Religious Leader Diplomatic Victory is the Lake Map that wraps around from West to East and visa versus. This effectively means that one's Capital is always "centered" in the East-West direction in the sense that one's Capital can be on the North or South edge of the Map, but never the East or West edge. This Map also has adequate Forests when one searches long enough. Also, for at least up to size Standard, the AI Leaders are close enough to be converted to the TAP Religion very early even at Quick speed. The Lake Map doesn't suffer from the sometimes very strange shapes found on Pangaea where some AI Leaders can be very hard to get to, even at Epic speed.

Additionally, I generally pop 4 to 8 goody huts on Lakes that I won't get on pangaea. Of course, the game likes to give me fishing and hunting or AH when I have no livestock around.

Wow, I'm impressed guys. Excellent write-ups. I'm a lowly noob--never even beaten Emperor before--but these explanations are so clear I'm tempted to try Challenge 10.

Sprenk, I am disappointed that I don't see a submission from you yet. Give it a try! If you have problems, post them and we'll help you out. BTW, if you haven't used mapfinder, give it a try, it will help you tremendously!

Sprenk, I am disappointed that I don't see a submission from you yet. Give it a try! If you have problems, post them and we'll help you out. BTW, if you haven't used mapfinder, give it a try, it will help you tremendously!

(Oh jeez, I was hoping nobody would notice. . . .)

I was planning to make an attempt, but I didn't want . . . didn't want . . . to rush things. Yes, that's it! I'm not scared or anything! I've still got 32 whole days!

Seriously, thanks for the offer of help. And yes, I've got mapfinder figured out. I CAN do this! (shudder. . . .)

Assuming I got the settings right, I just finished this for my first diety HoF submission. I chose to play a slow, deliberate game. I built a couple non-AP missionaries before my own to ensure everyone had a religion. Counting got the win, on the nose, on my first eligible vote. Turn 75.
http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/3955/onthenose.jpg (http://img203.imageshack.us/i/onthenose.jpg/)
I also opted to do the "gift a city" trick to get Rammy up there fast. Shanghai. The start was a corn and dual gold one but a certain terrain feature made it sub-optimal.
http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/531/shanghaigift.jpg (http://img691.imageshack.us/i/shanghaigift.jpg/)
Thanks to those who offered insight on this. If I were to make an allusion, I took the tortoise side of the tortoise and hare race.

I just wanted to thank Shulec and STW for their great advice and writeups. I did not get to submit a game, but really felt that I could have done it had I got the right maps on mapfinder. I actually showed up about an hour late for work because I spent the better part of an hour trying to get **$(^%(ing map finder to work.


Note everyone: with BUFFY, map finder starts with Ctrl+Alt+G, not Ctrl+M. Took me forever to figure that out. In the end, map finder didn't even save any of the 600 regens it ran before I came home and stopped it. What did I do wrong?

Thanks for the help and encouragement, those guys. :goodjob:

I just wanted to thank Shulec and STW for their great advice and writeups. I did not get to submit a game, but really felt that I could have done it had I got the right maps on mapfinder. I actually showed up about an hour late for work because I spent the better part of an hour trying to get **$(^%(ing map finder to work.


You are welcome! Just trying to do my bit to help other players and to promote and improve the Challenge Series itself.


Note everyone: with BUFFY, map finder starts with Ctrl+Alt+G, not Ctrl+M. Took me forever to figure that out. In the end, map finder didn't even save any of the 600 regens it ran before I came home and stopped it. What did I do wrong?


I usually just set up a rule that requires a minimum of 2 mining resources (it usually finds Gems, Gold and some Silver). I also set the Test Range to 999, so resources more than 2 plots away will trigger a save; so you may have to move your Settler to get the these resources in the BFC and sometimes that's not even possible, but I'd rather see the "maybe" maps and possibly discard them than not see them at all; I usually lose at most one turn in moving the Settler to a better BFC.

Of course many maps with Gold and insufficient Food must be discarded as well, but if one searches for maps with both mining resources and food resources many good maps will not be saved. Adding a rule for a minimum of 1 farm or 1 pasture resource would be a good compromise.

Sun Tzu Wu

I also set the Test Range to 999, so resources more than 2 plots away will trigger a save

Nice tip! I'll have to change my settings!

Here are the search parameters I use. I discard a lot of games. The column sorting helps to filter in the good starts:

http://i942.photobucket.com/albums/ad265/shulec/Mapfinderrules.jpg

The column sorting helps to filter in the good starts:


I often find sorting by Forests best, since the fastest way to build The Apostolic Palace is via Forest chopping. One also needs to estimate the no. of additional forests that are hidden by unrevealed plots. Of course I do not mean to imply that the best start is the one with the most forests; an adequate number of mining resources and food are just as important; Maps with Fur are also good to save, assuming one has Hunting.

@shulec: Go Bears! Decimate the Packers!

Sun Tzu Wu