View Full Version : My buildorder up to turn 81


Kordanor
Sep 19, 2010, 03:42 PM
Heya,

as this one is quite huge, I didn't want to put this posting into any existing threads.

So, what did I do? I basically played Civ5 - just on "paper". :D
Most of the formulars are already known, so what I based my build order on is:

City pop increases:
1->2 15 or 16 Food
2->3 21 or most probably 22 Food (6 additional)
3->4 29 or most probably 30 Food (8 additional)
4->5 40 Food (10 additional)
Which can be seen in the first part of the stream.

Social Policies:
1st at 25
2nd at 45
(see stream)

City Border Increase:
1st at 20
2nd at additional 25
(see stream)

Techs:
Tier 1: 40
Tier 2: 60 and 80
Tier 3: 88 and 110 and 168 (might be a little different)
(taken out of the first part of the stream as well)

EDIT: The Settings in the stream are on Immortal, numbers are modified/incorrect, just so that nobody else seeing these numbers is wondering :D

I also assumed that leftovers of food/production/culture take over to the next item

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0Ao-yJGZFF5lmdGh5VjJFY3VFUW5ZRFhWUEFEN2NQRUE&hl=en&authkey=CM-FhMYK#gid=0

While it seems very specified at the first look, it's actually quite generic.
What is needed:
Starting Place with 2 tiles of river, 2 hills. Not necessarily in the first bunch of hexes.
One Luxury Ressource either in Range of capital or in range of your second city, being either used by: A mine, a camp or a plantation (which bascially covers almost all of these)
And that's it. Even if it does not fit that well, it's a delay of very few turns at most.
If the numbers for techs and growth are wrong, they are most probably even shorter (as in manual), which would not be of any problem.
I added a bit of extra time to the worker (will probably not be able to use 100% of time on building stuff).

I also planned as Civ without any bonuses to these formulars (like Iroquois, which I am going to play)

General Overview:
Build:
Scout, Worker, Monument, Settler, Great Library, Stonehenge, Military, Settler (as soon as Ironworking is finished)
Science:
Animal Husbandry, Pottery, Writing, Mining, Trapping, Plantation, Bronze Working, Iron Working

Result at 80 is: Good advantage in science due to library, great cultural output due to stonehenge, 2 Cities with a solid happiness, and a third city with iron supply as soon as iron is found and the happiness can be granted.

Negative: Minimum of military production, while a "rush" in the first 73 turns is unlikely, it might happen (don't think the AI will do it, and players on a bigger map with several opponents won't either as it would be their own death).
Of course we don't exactly know yet, how much a Starting City alone can defend.
Also minimum of exploring, (StartWarrior+Scout), so nothing for the German Civ, also probably nothing for Aztec.

Well, I am not exactly a progamer but more of a numbercruncher. I'd appreciate any feedback.

Cyberian
Sep 19, 2010, 04:00 PM
Great buildorder, civil service in round 58 with a second city is really god.

One remark, where you said you work plains I think you meant grassland.
The only thing I will fear one higher difficulty is that I don't get stonehenge when building the library first. But it could be the other way round now because calendar needs more research, stonehenge might be built later than other wonders.

After listening to the latest podcast with the remark: "Watch out for the Iroquois" I am also including them in my first games.

btw, one might also be interested in this buildorder thread:
Early Growth production paths (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=380085)

Kordanor
Sep 19, 2010, 04:08 PM
Great buildorder, civil service in round 58 with a second city is really god.

One remark, where you said you work plains I think you meant grassland.
The only thing I will fear one higher difficulty is that I don't get stonehenge when building the library first. But it could be the other way round now because calendar needs more research, stonehenge might be built later than other wonders.

After listening to the latest podcast with the remark: "Watch out for the Iroquois" I am also including them in my first games.

btw, one might also be interested in this buildorder thread:
Early Growth production paths (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=380085)

Yep, of course, fixed. :)
I can also recommend the thread you linked, some great input and ideas.

Regarding Iroquois there is also this thread about longhouses:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=9616953#post9616953

Personally I'd prefer Vikings, but now the Iroquois seem to fit me most. :)
Don't like to play "major" civs somehow. ^^

warpstorm
Sep 19, 2010, 08:20 PM
What is your backup plan for losing Wonders?

Since you aren't making a beeline for the techs that give Stonehenge (and in fact are building another Wonder first) I would assume it will be snatched away from you.

The other concern is how you plan on dealing with Barbarians.

SirTurtle
Sep 19, 2010, 08:38 PM
A problem: your spreadsheet says pick Civil Service with the Great Library. But you never research Philosophy.

See page 221 in the pdf manual: Civil Service prerequisites are Philosophy and Trapping.

Thyrwyn
Sep 19, 2010, 10:45 PM
Here is mine (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0An3AwOEQia8odEZXQ0FIVjZBZGhDdU5nQVZlUFM1d Wc&hl=en&authkey=CPqktr0D) through turn 50 - specifically for a French Stonehenge rush. Calendar comes in on turn 22, after Tradition & Aristocracy; Stonehenge started on 23, finished on turn 38. Will use Scouts to explore, and keep Warriors close for defense - since I have no idea how aggressive the barbs will be early.

1st Citizen works a grassland, 2nd works a forest, 3rd works a hill.

Assumed Policy costs (for one city) are 25, 45, 65, 85. . .
Assumed city growth is (10 + (Current Size *6))
Techs after Bronze will depend on surroundings.

Spark026
Sep 20, 2010, 01:27 AM
Here is mine (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0An3AwOEQia8odEZXQ0FIVjZBZGhDdU5nQVZlUFM1d Wc&hl=en&authkey=CPqktr0D) through turn 50 - specifically for a French Stonehenge rush

You production while producing Stonehenge will be 8, cause Aristocracy is +33% Wonder production now, but the math is the same (15 turns). Secondly, for just one extra turn, you can have a worker, instead of the 2nd scout and warrior. Your worker should be able to complete most improv around capital in time to move on once your first settler is finished.

I do not think skipping the worker early will ever be a viable plan. Maybe its just me though. As far as a know we do not start with a worker in Civ5, but perhaps on some lower difficulty lvls you do. If you do start with one, then your plan is just fine.

Short form French build order:

Scout > Worker > Stonehenge > Warrior > Warrior > Settler > Settler

Paris stalls at Size 3 during Stonehenge, move citizens around so that Paris reaches size 5 by time 2nd warrior is completed(should complete 3rd farm 3 turns after Stonehenge finishes, max food surplus is +6 if 3 grasslands present; try to build 2 grass, 1 plains however), then start Settlers.

Pottery > Calendar > Animal Husbandry, Mining> Writing > Philosophy(Start GL immediately) > Trapping(can research earlier if trappable resources present) > whatever you want

Getting Paris to size 5 before settler rush will help your science a LOT. Build Library, then Granary after Settler rush if you have time. Then GL once Philosophy is researched. Pick Civil Service upon completion obviously.

Don't piss off the neighbors :D

Kordanor
Sep 20, 2010, 02:09 AM
A problem: your spreadsheet says pick Civil Service with the Great Library. But you never research Philosophy.

See page 221 in the pdf manual: Civil Service prerequisites are Philosophy and Trapping.

You got a point. But do you have a reliable source about this structure being an AND and not an OR?

Civ IV used to display special requirements in the top right of the science "name tag" while only showing options to be reached, no conditions as far as I remember.
This might be different in Civ V of course.
EDIT: You are probably right, checked out the second part of the stream, indicating that he always has both pre-sciences. While this isn't a solid proof it is very likely.

@Thyrwyn
It's hard to say if exploring is that important to even abstain from building a worker. (as Spark026 said)
Without having any bonus ressources your additional Citizens basically have no use but putting an additional science point into the pool. Will probably not have much of a difference in the very first turns as the worker/farms/mines have to be set up, but I am pretty sure it is "crippling" you when looking at 100 turns.
Of course being French almost guarantees to get the first Wonder, if you want it really hard. ^^

You production while producing Stonehenge will be 8, cause Aristocracy is +33 Wonder production now
Oh, didn't see that. Actually makes a change for me as I start without this policy and adding it while building the wonder. Will change this this afternoon. Makes sense though. :D

Does anyone know how the game handles decimalplaces in production?

Thyrwyn
Sep 20, 2010, 02:33 AM
...for just one extra turn, you can have a worker, instead of the 2nd scout and warrior. Your worker should be able to complete most improv around capital in time to move on once your first settler is finished.

I do not think skipping the worker early will ever be a viable plan. Maybe its just me though. I considered the Worker instead of the 2nd Scout & Warrior. Since this will be the first game and I have no idea how tough barbarians are going to be, I wanted two Warriors (the initial one + one built) to guard Paris, and I want two Scouts to discover the world (literally and figuratively). In later games that may change. i might also consider buying the Worker.

Also, since improved tiles only improve by 1, I felt that the worker was less important.

I agree that Paris should get to at least 4 or 5 before building a Settler. I think my first 2 cities will be one troop factory and one Settler/economy city. i am hoping to never build another Settler in Paris.

Shurdus
Sep 20, 2010, 10:22 AM
Meh, counting on grabbing two early wonders in a row seems a bit positive. Also better hope Monty is not right next door.

All in all it is very nice that you came up worth a great opening, but it is not too hard to do that in a vacuum where there is no opposition.

Horserush
Sep 20, 2010, 11:21 AM
I like your planner, very nice. A thought though, wouldn't your first scout be built on turn 7?

Kordanor
Sep 20, 2010, 01:59 PM
Meh, counting on grabbing two early wonders in a row seems a bit positive. Also better hope Monty is not right next door.

All in all it is very nice that you came up worth a great opening, but it is not too hard to do that in a vacuum where there is no opposition.

Well...yes, of course everything is situational. Of course finding horses right away or additional food would boost it, basically I put everything away which can considered as RNG (random).
What I think would have been the main "achievement" in this is to have the idea to build the monument to be able Monument in order to speed up Wonder production (this idea I stole from Cyberian ;) I din't think at first that it would have such an impact so fast) and to actually show that it works in theorycraft. Same goes for the multiple sciences which have to be timed right to be available when they are needed. However, SirTurtle is probably right, meaning that the plan with Civil Service won't work.

About counting on getting both: of course it's situational, but every game is situational, and keeping that in mind, it's basically impossible to get any Wonder before the French can do it.
France will have it's 33% bonus byTurn 24, by just sitting and waiting, any other culture (except of Aztecs maybe with lucky combat, afaik the bonus numbers are unknown) will need to wait for this till turn 36 even if the monument is the first thing you build (34 when you put the first worker on hill, which again will cripple science and everything else). In addition France will have the needed technology at Turn 22 (Library) or 25 (Stonehenge). So I don't see any way to beat them, IF they really do everything to get it asap.
But of course even the French won't be able to build everything at once. So there will always be options and you need some luck.

I like your planner, very nice. A thought though, wouldn't your first scout be built on turn 7?
True, the producing line is basically showing what is being built when cklicking "next turn". So at the beginning of turn 7, the scout vanishs from this line and the next item gets there (finished scout is in the comments though)

Ahriman
Sep 20, 2010, 02:16 PM
General Overview:
Build:
Scout, Worker, Monument, Settler, Great Library, Stonehenge, Military, Settler (as soon as Ironworking is finished)
Science:
Animal Husbandry, Pottery, Writing, Mining, Trapping, Plantation, Bronze Working, Iron Working

Two wonders before your first real military unit seems like just begging to get your face kicked in by barbarians or other players.

If this build works on any but the lowest difficulties, then something is wrong with the game.

You got a point. But do you have a reliable source about this structure being an AND and not an OR?
AFAIK there are no OR requirements in Civ5.

Kordanor
Sep 20, 2010, 02:23 PM
Two wonders before your first real military unit seems like just begging to get your face kicked in by barbarians or other players.

If this build works on any but the lowest difficulties, then something is wrong with the game.

As I said, it's a downside. However, Cities seem to be quite strong. So a single babarian unit OR a single Warrior from the enemy will not be able to crush it. And I doubt that bararians will gather an attack.
Now if you don't run too far away, or are aware of nearby opponents, you also have a warrior and a scout to assist, which also decrease the speed of the opponent, letting the ranged attack of the city coming into action (if available in the beginning, don't know).

In Civ4, this would probably be doomed. But I think in Civ V it might work pretty well.

-------


Does anyone know for sure that you need all technologies which are pointing towards the next? Stream looked like that and the latest HD Video on gametrailers either. Problem is that you can't say for sure by that.

Anyways, mistakes were already pointed out, so I will try something else and rebuild the sheet. :)

jlafleur
Sep 20, 2010, 02:34 PM
Thyrwyn,

I think your culture is off on your spreadsheet. I believe the palace is one culture not two which means that you will earn three culture not four from the start as france.

Kordanor
Sep 20, 2010, 02:42 PM
Thyrwyn,

I think your culture is off on your spreadsheet. I believe the palace is one culture not two which means that you will earn three culture not four from the start as france.

True. Didn't see that.

Does anyone know for sure that you need all technologies which are pointing towards the next? Stream looked like that and the latest HD Video on gametrailers either. Problem is that you can't say for sure by that.
Found the answer in the manual (yeah, rtf ^^):
Some technologies require knowledge of 2 or 3 prerequisite technologies, not just one. Those techs will not appear until you’ve learned all of the required techs.
So...I need to think of something else. :D

Ahriman
Sep 20, 2010, 02:45 PM
However, Cities seem to be quite strong
I'm not sure how strong cities are without any walls. I agree that barbarians not likely to destroy the city, but they might kill your worker and pillage your improvements.
Also: its possible that your city can't bombard without the archery tech (not sure).

If you use your warrior and scout to assist, then you are not doing any scouting, and can give up on getting any goody huts or useful intel. or gold from barbarian huts. And if you're not out destroying barb huts, then there will be even more pressure on you from barbarians.

Kordanor
Sep 20, 2010, 02:55 PM
I'm not sure how strong cities are without any walls. I agree that barbarians not likely to destroy the city, but they might kill your worker and pillage your improvements.
Also: its possible that your city can't bombard without the archery tech (not sure).

If you use your warrior and scout to assist, then you are not doing any scouting, and can give up on getting any goody huts or useful intel. or gold from barbarian huts. And if you're not out destroying barb huts, then there will be even more pressure on you from barbarians.

And what is your answer to that? I mean even if I skipped the wonders and would build military units instead, it would still only be finished at turn 50 or so.
Meaning you would need to postpone anything else. What would you postpone? Everything but the settler (or scout, which would be pointless in that regard) would make you lose a race to a Wonder, if another Civ goes for it.

Thyrwyn
Sep 20, 2010, 03:05 PM
Thyrwyn,

I think your culture is off on your spreadsheet. I believe the palace is one culture not two which means that you will earn three culture not four from the start as france.I thought so, too, but the manual says this:Your civilization acquires culture in a variety of ways:
Your Palace: Your palace (created when you build your first city) produces 2 culture
points per turn.page 80.

Kordanor
Sep 20, 2010, 03:13 PM
Well I trust a stream with the almost up to date version (walls) over a manual which has major faults (science deal) which was already confirmed by greg.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/9553042

Just click anywhere into the stream ^^

jlafleur
Sep 20, 2010, 03:35 PM
Pretty sure it is one. It does also say one culture on page 218 for the palace under national wonders. The video shows one for germany. This is inline with non-french civs getting their first social policy at turn 25. This is a far greater advantage for france then if the palace was two. three to one is better than four to two.

Ahriman
Sep 20, 2010, 03:49 PM
Everything but the settler (or scout, which would be pointless in that regard) would make you lose a race to a Wonder, if another Civ goes for it.

Which is the point. You shouldn't expect to be able to grab 2 wonders in your starting city, after building a settler. You're lucky to get one, and on high difficulty levels (where the AI gets bonuses) or against Egypt, even that's a gamble.

Civ4 to guarantee wonders relied on chopping or whipping. Without that, you shouldn't expect to be able to hog wonders except on low difficulty levels.

Trying to hog 2 wonders with no military should result in you getting squashed.

Kordanor
Sep 20, 2010, 03:56 PM
Indeed.

I also actually got some real numbers for techs from the stream which not only are calculated by me. Didn't realize before, that the costs are actually displayed in the tooltip:

My old guesses based on Science*turns to research:
Techs:
Tier 1: 40
Tier 2: 60 and 80
Tier 3: 88 and 110 and 168 (might be a little different)
(taken out of the first part of the stream as well)


Streams tooltip:


Tier 0: 22
Tier 1: 38 (Turn 0) (17:32 in the stream)
Tier 2: 60 (the wheel at 31.22 in stream)
Tier 3: ?
Philosophy: 110 (31:41 in stream)


Manual:

Tier 0: 20
Tier 1: 35
Tier 2: 55 and 70
Tier 3: 80, 100 and 150
Pilosophy: 100


So I'd say that all amounts are were increased by 10 since the manual was printed. OR the amounts were higher in the stream as they may have tested something in the build.

Kordanor
Sep 20, 2010, 03:59 PM
Which is the point. You shouldn't expect to be able to grab 2 wonders in your starting city, after building a settler. You're lucky to get one, and on high difficulty levels (where the AI gets bonuses) or against Egypt, even that's a gamble.

Civ4 to guarantee wonders relied on chopping or whipping. Without that, you shouldn't expect to be able to hog wonders except on low difficulty levels.

Trying to hog 2 wonders with no military should result in you getting squashed.

Hmm...chopping doesn't seem to be an option as Iroquois ^^
But I see in which direction you are pointing. :)

Thyrwyn
Sep 20, 2010, 04:26 PM
. . .So I'd say that all amounts are were increased by 10 since the manual was printed. OR the amounts were higher in the stream as they may have tested something in the build.Remember that all of these are affected by map size and speed, too.

Kordanor
Sep 20, 2010, 04:38 PM
Remember that all of these are affected by map size and speed, too.

On map size? Anyways, he chooses Normal/Normal in the stream.

Just tried out Scout->Worker->Great Library...well, totally nonesense without being Aztec or France. ^^
You need ~20-25 turns to finish that thing while gaining no food. Free tech does not make up for that.

Edit. Cut something out

Ahriman
Sep 20, 2010, 04:43 PM
Remember that all of these are affected by map size and speed, too.

And possibly difficulty level, lowest difficulty levels might have lower culture thresholds for SPs.

Kordanor
Sep 20, 2010, 04:48 PM
And possibly difficulty level, lowest difficulty levels might have lower culture thresholds for SPs.

Aaahh...Bullseye!
His settings are on immortal. That explains the tech 10% :)