View Full Version : Civ5 using DX11 Graphics: The way it's meant to be played!


ainwood
Sep 19, 2010, 05:04 PM
DirectX 9 vs DirectX11 in Civilization 5

DirectX 11 (or DX11) is Microsoft's latest incarnation of the DirectX API, a set of Application Programming Interfaces that are used for multimedia on a PC, and graphics in particular. DX11 adds some new features to allow better graphics details, such as tessellation and improved multi-threading, along with some other graphical enhancements. The first game to be released supporting DX11 was the RTS game BattleForge, initially released as a DX9 / DX10 game, and updated to support DX 11 in September 2009. There are currently only a handful of titles that have been released with DX11 support, and Civilization 5 is now one of them.

Civilization 5 ships with two versions: a DX9 version, and a DX11 version. In this review here, I will endeavor to show you the differences between the two; but first a word on availability:

In order to play the directx 11 version, you need to have both a video card that supports DX11 (ATI Radeon 5XXX or higher, or NVIDIA GeForce 4XX or higher), and an operating system that supports DX11 as well: Windows 7, or Vista (SP2). For those of you who have Windows XP, unfortunately you're out of luck: DX11 is not supported under XP. For those of you that have Vista SP2 or Windows 7, but don't have a graphics card that supports DX11, hopefully this article might help you decide whether an upgrade is a good option.

Before we get into the differences between the two, I need to give you the "disclaimer" bit. CFC was contacted a couple of weeks ago by NVIDIA. NVIDIA have been providing some support to Firaxis on the graphics hardware side for Civ5, and just over a week ago, they released a new entry-level (affordable) DX11 card, the GeForce GTS 450. NVIDIA proposed that they could send me one of these cards for review. Well, we're not a hardware review site, and if I tried to get into the technical details of the benefits of CUDA vs other graphics architecture, I would get shot to pieces by those who know a heck of a lot more about it than me. So I saw this as an opportunity not to review the card per-se, but to show you how such a card can (in my opinion) improve the look of Civilization 5, by giving you access to all the bells & whistles that come with DX11. We will also use this as an opportunity to tell you about a NVIDIA Civilization 5 promotion, but we'll get to that later.

So a bit about the set-up I used here. I have two PCs - one is a few years old, the other not so old. I ran the "System Requirements" checks using System Requirements Info (http://www.systemrequirementslab.com/CYRI/intro.aspx) on my older PC (Core II Duo, E6600 running at 2.4 GHz), and it told me I met the "minimum CPU" requirement, but no the "minimum speed" requirement for the CPU. I'm not really sure why it concluded that, but to allow this to be a graphics-focused discussion, I used my more modern PC - a Core i7 860. All tests were run on this, using a ViewSonic VX2433wm 24" widescreen. Resolution was set to 1920x1080, 60Hz refresh rate, and "WaitForVerticalSync" set in the game options. Now, I'm no expert, but I understand that this option forces the game to limit the number of frames per second to the screen refresh rate. This is the standard option, and designed to give a smooth display. Other graphics options, I all set to "high" detail level.

The graphics options available in Civ5 are shown below:

http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/Graphics.JPG

Now: One important point to note is that (in my setup at least), anti-aliasing is set to "off" for the DX9 version - the option is grayed-out (the screenshot above is for the graphics settings for the DX11 version). Anti-aliasing is a technology used to smooth-out jagged lines on textures (read more about it here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spatial_anti-aliasing)). Now, while Civ5 doesn't seem to support anti-aliasing, the in-game settings can be over-ridden using the NVIDIA graphics control panel. I did actually try this to demonstrate the effect, and you can see the difference in the image below. The image on the left is with Anti-Aliasing via the NVIDIA control panel, set at 8x. The image on the right shows the standard image.

http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/AA_Effect.jpg
You can see from the image above, that the lines along the vertex of the tent are sharper and more jagged in the non-AA version.


Now: One other point:
In Civ5, there is a minimum default zoom level. To show the textures in all their glory, I changed a setting in the Config.ini file for Civ5.


; How close you can get (11.0=default, 4.0=debug zoom)
Minimum Zoom Level = 4.000000


This has allowed me to zoom in to really see the details up-close.

And finally, before we get onto the review proper, let me state that I am not an expert on the subtleties of these two technologies. I aim to show you the differences between the two in terms of the graphical experience playing Civ5, but if I have my explanations wrong, then please forgive me!


Now: On to the review!

ainwood
Sep 21, 2010, 02:08 AM
City Textures

The first thing we will look at is some city textures.

In each case, I will present the DX9 version of each picture on the left, and the DX11 version on the right, assuming a desktop setting of approximately 1280 x 1024. If you have a small resolution, the images may be tiled vertically, but the first will be the DX9 version. Each of the pictures is actually a hyperlink to a larger (non-cropped) version of the same image. Note that I am saving these a .JPGs rather than something like a PNG, which will lose some detail. But I looked closely, and I think that the detail loss from .JPG is fairly minimal.

The first is a very basic city - its Rome, my capital. The city is size 5, with the palace as the only improvement.

http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX9_Rome_Cropped.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX9_Rome_Full.jpg)http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX11_Rome_Cropped.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX11_Rome_Full.jpg)

The palace is the object in the middle of the picture, with the marble horses across the top, and I think that these horses actually provide a pretty good example of the improvements in textures; particularly the legs of the horses that look quite sharp in the DX11 version, and a bit jagged in the DX9.

The other thing you may notice is the jaggedness of the edges of the buildings in the DX9 version. Now, I mentioned above that this is partly due to the anti-aliasing, but even with anti-aliasing turned-off in the DX11 version, the textures are still fairly crisp. I've repeated the DX9 picture below, next to the DX11 one with AA turned-off.
http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX9_Rome_Cropped.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX9_Rome_Full.jpg)http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX11_NoAA.jpg

Of course, cities without many buildings are not as interesting as cities with more stuff. In the screens below, I present similar pictures of Beijing, except this time the city has a number of buildings, and also some wonders: The Pyramids, Stonehenge and the Porcelain Tower. A nice touch in civilization 5 is that there are actually textures for wonders that are in-progress, and not yet completed.

http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX9_Beijing_Cropped.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX9_Beijing_Full.jpg)http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX11_Beijing_Cropped.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX11_Beijing_Full.jpg)


Again, note the sharper images generated in the DX11 screenshots, particularly noticeable in the stonehenge blocks, and down the lines of the pyramids. You will also see this in the buildings in the city proper. Now, anti-aliasing my be part of the answer here, but DX11 also introduces tessellation, and I believe that this may have something to do withe the sharper images. Hopefully someone who knows a bit more about this that I do (maybe a heads-up to one of the Firaxis artists / DX programmers?) might be able to tell us a bit more!

ainwood
Sep 21, 2010, 05:26 AM
Units

We have seen above a little bit on the units, particularly how they don't cast shadows on the terrain in the DX9 version. Here we examine a couple more units. The first two are actually from the full version of the Beijing picture I showed before, where I had previous cropped-out a couple of units. Here is the Great Scientist (As in Civ4, in Civ5 the Great people units change with the ages. This is the industrial era version)


http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX9_Beijing_GS.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX9_Beijing_Full.jpg)http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX11_Beijing_GS.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX11_Beijing_Full.jpg)

Here, the lack of a shadow is not as evident. Note that the wheels on the vehicle are more round in the DX11 version.



Finally, we have a set of units: A rifleman in the center, a great general to the left, and the boat is actually an embarked worker, believe it or not!

http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX9_Units_Cropped.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX9_Units_Full.jpg)http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX11_Units_Cropped.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX11_Units_Full.jpg)

...and its good to see that the riflemen aren't doing anything untoward with those cattle, as well! ;)

Again, I would like to draw your attention to the extra detail, shadows and reflection provided by the DX11 graphics. It is not particularly clear to see in this particular shot, but the boats reflect in the water as well. In fact, after mentioning that, I think I owe it to you to show you the effect. Here we have an American Caravel, and a Carrier.


http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX9_Ships_Cropped.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX9_Ships_Full.jpg)http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX11_Ships_Cropped.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX11_Ships_Full.jpg)

As you can see, the reflections look pretty cool, and they're dynamic as the ship moves and rocks. The lighting effect that can be seen on the sea in the DX9 shot is actually available on both DX9 and DX11 - look at the full picture (click on the images above) to see it better.

ainwood
Sep 21, 2010, 06:14 AM
Summary

As I said at the start, this is not meant to be a video card review specifically, but more of a demonstration of DX9 vs DX11 in Civilization 5. But for those of you interested in the video card, I have a few comments.

Firstly, it fits easily into my case (standard ATX), although it takes a double-slot. It connects with a single 6-pin PCIe power connection. The NVIDIA control panel doesn't report temperatures, and I couldn't be bothered finding out how, but during my playing, I didn't notice any abnormal sounds from the fan (didn't hear it at all). It has a couple of DVI connectors, and a single HDMI one.

Civilization is not a First Person Shooter (obviously!) and high frame rates are not the be-all and end-all. As you zoom around the map, the frame rates may drop slightly here, but leave the camera still, and everything catches-up.

NVIDIA recommended that I play this with MSAA (anti-aliasing) set to 2x. I actually set it to 8x for the screenshots I took above, and got a perfectly playable ~30 FPS when scrolling around land, and got 60 FPS (limited by Waitforverticalsync) on water. With WaitForVerticalSync turned-off, the land scrolling remained the same, and the water did too, suggesting that 60 FPS is about the limit at 8x MSAA. I turned the anti-aliasing down to 2x (as recommended by NVIDIA), and got around 45 - 60 FPS on land, and 70 on water (waitforverticalsync disabled).

What this actually translates to is a very slight 'jerky' look feel when panning-around the map. However, when you're immersed in the game, it is hardly noticeable. And note that this was at 1920 x 1280 widescreen resolution, with a 60Hz refresh rate. For those of you up-and-playing, you may notice that when the AI moves, they tend to do unit moves simultaneously, instead of moving units sequentially (looks pretty cool, actually). There may be a bit of slowdown when a whole pile of units move at once. Combat is on a unit-by-unit basis, and this tends to be handled fairly well.

In summary, this NVIDIA GTS 450 card does not purport to be the highest spec. video card. It serves a purpose as an introductory-level DX11 card, delivering DX11 graphics at a reasonable price. I was sent some links, and this card can be picked up for as little as CAD 129 (also with a free copy of Just Cause 2) from NCIX, and USD 129 from NewEgg.

Now: One other thing that I'm really pleased to be able to announce here is a promotion for North American customers who play civilization 5, and who purchase one of these cards (and it looks like it may apply to Australia and New Zealand as well). If you buy one of these cards from certain retailers, you get a free upgrade from Civilization 5 Basic Edition to the Digital Deluxe Edition!

>>Read more about the Promotion on the NVIDIA Website HERE (http://www.nzone.com/object/upgradeciv5.html)
>>Go review and order a card from NCIX.com (Canada) (http://www9.ncix.com/lp1/nvidia-gts450-civ5/index2.html)
>>Go review and order a card from NewEgg.com (USA) - (Look for the ones that say "Free Civilization 5 Upgrade) (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=nvidia+gts+450&x=2&y=28)


Finally, my thanks to Christopher Pomroy, Martin Day and especially to Leslie Pirritano of NVIDIA for sending me this DX11 card and making this review possible, along with Charlie Sinhaseni & Tom Bass (2K Games) and Kelley Gilmore (Firaxis) for sorting out some of the other details.

http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/NVIDIA/NV_Civ5_300x250_Catherine.jpg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=nvidia+gts+450&x=2&y=28)http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/NVIDIA/NV_Civ5_300x250_Washington.jpg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=nvidia+gts+450&x=2&y=28)http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/NVIDIA/NV_Civ5_300x250_Alexander.jpg (http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=nvidia+gts+450&x=2&y=28)


And very, very finally, as a teaser, we will be announcing another NVIDIA promotion in the near future! Look out for it! :D

ArtVanDelay1975
Sep 21, 2010, 05:39 PM
I've never even heard of a deluxe edition. In the last week or so, I just built a new computer system, keeping this specific game in mind. I have a GTX460. What is the deluxe version? Is there something in it that the "regular version" doesn't have? I wish I would have known about this.

spicytimothy
Sep 21, 2010, 05:50 PM
hmm the differences are pretty subtle imo... well my comp is below min req anyways

marioflag
Sep 21, 2010, 05:57 PM
The thing i'm most interested to know and i hope you can cover in this thread Ainwood is the difference between a DX10 card or DX10.1 and DX11 card.
Is there any noticeable difference in graphic department?

Tamed
Sep 21, 2010, 06:07 PM
So why can't I run DX10 with AA? Why does it have to be 9 or 11? I have a DX10 card, I want a DX10 version.

Ayt
Sep 21, 2010, 06:09 PM
There is a DX10 version, and you can use AA.

Tamed
Sep 21, 2010, 06:10 PM
Why can't I launch it, then?

Grunthex
Sep 21, 2010, 06:11 PM
Thanks for this Ainwood. As nice as those DX11 pictures are, this confirms my thoughts from playing today - DX9 is good enough, I don't gotta go pay for Win7 yet.

Although I DO like those water textures/reflections a LOT...

Mathalamus
Sep 21, 2010, 06:15 PM
not bad, but the effects are negligible. you'd have to look that close to see *any* difference

Ayt
Sep 21, 2010, 06:24 PM
Why can't I launch it, then?

I read somewhere you may have to close out the Steam application than restart it for some reason.

SlayerofDeitys
Sep 21, 2010, 07:28 PM
not bad, but the effects are negligible. you'd have to look that close to see *any* difference

Exactly my thoughts. Sure, it does look a little better, but its minor enough for my tastes that I am certainly not about to rush out and plunk anymore money down.

Dearmad
Sep 21, 2010, 07:45 PM
So how are framerates in dx9 versus 11? Is 9 considerably faster ?

EL_Kondor
Sep 21, 2010, 08:05 PM
I have an Nvidia GeForce GTX 260. When I start the game I select the dx10/dx11 setting (as recomended), but for some reason when I am in the Video Options screen I can't set anti-aliasing on. As soon as I hit "Apply" the screen goes black and anti-aliasing turns off automatically. I set the application override thing on in the Nvidia control panel. Does this card even support dx10/dx11? Is there a way for me to turn anti aliasing on in the game, or does this mean that it's automatically on when I set it in the Nvidia Control Panel? Thanks.

moopoo
Sep 21, 2010, 08:08 PM
i usually struggle to see differences in side by side comparisons like this, i think if you're playing the game and you have a world with shadows and better lighting and smoother textures it becomes more noticeable. also, those nvidia quotes are brilliant :D

bhavv
Sep 21, 2010, 08:50 PM
In case the OP and other people in this thread didnt realize, in DX11 mode, only the terrain is tessellated, not the buildings / units.

If you compare the terrain, yes the differences are very significant between DX9 and DX11.

Baleur
Sep 21, 2010, 09:02 PM
Some notes on this, sorry if its been mentioned already :)

1. Tesselation is basically subdividing the terrain's polygons = moar polygons = moar details and crisp cliffs, mountains or hills.

2. DX11 AND DX10 has tesselation, frankly i dont know what DX11 does that DX10 doesnt do in civ5. Maybe depth of field or something?

Maniacal
Sep 21, 2010, 09:17 PM
I don't see why anti-aliasing is off in DX9 :???:

Honestly, while DX11 does look better, it isn't a huge difference in Civ5's case.

bhavv
Sep 21, 2010, 09:19 PM
2. DX11 AND DX10 has tesselation, frankly i dont know what DX11 does that DX10 doesnt do in civ5. Maybe depth of field or something?

This is completely incorrect, DX10 does NOT have tessellation. This was implemented into DX11 cards, and even if DX10 manage to support it, it would not be able to run it as none of the DX10 cards have dedicated tessellation processing like the HD 5000 and GTX 400 range does.

Do your homework on DX11, DX10 CANNOT even run this:

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/4558/heaven.gif (http://img830.imageshack.us/i/heaven.gif/)

Its funny that DX11 and Tessellation are working so great in Civ V, but as usual, tech noobs on the forums are quick to write it off as something that is meaningless and would work on older hardware when it absolutely wouldnt.

Panda_Power
Sep 21, 2010, 09:39 PM
Thanks for doing a DX11 comparison!

I didn't realise you could change the zoom level, that's excellent! Where is the config.ini file? I have Steam installed on my F drive and I can't find it anywhere in there and I've been through the usual C drive documents folders and can't find anything to do with Steam or Civ 5 in there!

*Edit*
I found one "config" file in the "my games" folder, but it looks like it's encrypted....it's just lines and lines of garbled characters. The graphics settings and user settings config files I can read OK.

Ossian
Sep 21, 2010, 10:04 PM
This is complete bogus on the texture department and disabling of AA. It is the same crap they pulled with the original Crysis until people hacked the configs and enabled the highest settings. People called them on it and they enabled the highest settings in DX9 with not much difference between DX9-10 in their expansion pack.

I call bull on Fraxis. Game is superb though.

frozenwings
Sep 21, 2010, 10:25 PM
You guys know you can force AA in the Nvidia control panel in specific applications, right? I have no idea why they disabled AA in DX9, but you can definitely force it and it looks just as good (to me anyway) as in the DX11 in game AA options. Granted you don't get all the benefits of DX11, but at least all the edges are smoothed out.

Now this is obviously going to put a strain on your graphics card so if you're running Civ 5 on a graphics card that is between minimum and recommended, you might get some lag. For the Nvidia side, this will probably work best on a 200 series card. Not sure if you can force AA with ATI drivers.

You noted that the shadows were great in DX11, but you it doesn't appear you even have them turned on in DX9 from looking at the screen shots. The only difference I can tell between Civ 5 with forced AA in DX9 and Civ 5 with the AA in DX11, is that there are no reflections in DX9.

mva5580
Sep 21, 2010, 10:44 PM
There are differences, but in my opinion they're very subtle. Not enough to warrant someone saying "Wow, I should get a new DX11 card for this game." Not even close, really.

tokala
Sep 22, 2010, 12:26 AM
And it should be emphasized that a DX10 card is sufficient to get the main benefits of the DX11 mode, namely the sharper textures. As one of the posters above commented, it looks like the DX9 mode is intentionally crippled.

And I have yet to see a screenshot comparing the terrain with a DX10 and a DX11 card. I still suspect that the hardware tesselation support of DX1 don't make much of a difference (looks not much different on my DX10 hardware compared to the Gallery shots images).

And if someone could figure out how to access the close in zoom capability in the retail/demo config.ini, i would be most grateful.

bhavv
Sep 22, 2010, 12:31 AM
And I have yet to see a screenshot comparing the terrain with a DX10 and a DX11 card. I still suspect that the hardware tesselation support of DX1 don't make much of a difference (looks not much different on my DX10 hardware compared to the Gallery shots images).

DX10 does not support Tessellation. It wouldnt even be able to use the Tessellation slider.

DX10 is very slow and crap, games optimised for DX10 actually run slower on DX10 hardware than they do under DX9.

Games optimised for DX11 run faster in DX11 than DX10 mode, as proven in other DX11 games like Battleforge.

DX11 is vastly more efficient than DX10, the differences isnt purely in visual, but how well the engine handles the calculations.


And I have yet to see a screenshot comparing the terrain with a DX10 and a DX11 card.

It wouldnt be any different to the OP pictures since the game only has DX9 and DX11 modes.

ainwood
Sep 22, 2010, 01:05 AM
And if someone could figure out how to access the close in zoom capability in the retail/demo config.ini, i would be most grateful.
Look in \My Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\ for the config.ini file. Line to change is:


; How close you can get (11.0=default, 4.0=debug zoom)
Minimum Zoom Level = 4.000000



As for DX10 vs DX11? Not sure, haven't tried it. But as someone noted, DX10 doesn't support tessellation.

Panda_Power
Sep 22, 2010, 01:54 AM
DX10 was a big fail and that's why the jump to DX11 happened so quickly. There should be just 2 options, 9 & 11, which there are.

Paragon
Sep 22, 2010, 02:34 AM
I'm very confused.

I have a DX10 card and have been playing the game in Direct X10-11 mode.

What exactly am I missing out on by not having a DX11 card (aside from a faster experience according to bhavv)?

My game runs smoothly and fast, but am I running with the graphics I see in the DX9 screenshots here, or the DX11 ones? I'm sorry if this has been answered, but I read all the replys and am still very confused.

sav
Sep 22, 2010, 02:39 AM
If I don't care about the graphics quality, should I run the game in DX9 or DX10/11 mode? It seems to work in both, but I haven't the time so far to closely analyse them...

chaotoroboto
Sep 22, 2010, 02:45 AM
not bad, but the effects are negligible. you'd have to look that close to see *any* difference

I spent all day playing on a DX9 machine while sitting next to someone playing on a DX11 machine, and I have to tell you, the differences are NOT subtle at all. The DX11 is so profoundly superior, on every inch of the screen, in every possible way.

remconius
Sep 22, 2010, 03:04 AM
I played the demo last night DX9 on my nvidia 8800 GTS (all settings high) and I was surprised at how responsive it is. Sometimes it blurs a bit when moving the camera but a second later everything is sharp again.

Personally Civilization is not about graphics for me (although 5 looks awesome) and I dont think i'll upgrade to DX11. If, however, it starts to be slow in big games I will consider spending 200 euros on a better Videocard.

tokala
Sep 22, 2010, 03:11 AM
Look in \My Documents\My Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 5\ for the config.ini file. Line to change is:


; How close you can get (11.0=default, 4.0=debug zoom)
Minimum Zoom Level = 4.000000



config.ini is there, but it looks to be encypted. Maybe a demo "feature" :confused:

Paragon
Sep 22, 2010, 03:19 AM
config.ini is there, but it looks to be encypted. Maybe a demo "feature" :confused:

Yes, it's encrypted in the game's .exe file in the full version. Too bad :(

bhavv
Sep 22, 2010, 03:29 AM
I'm very confused.

I have a DX10 card and have been playing the game in Direct X10-11 mode.

What exactly am I missing out on by not having a DX11 card (aside from a faster experience according to bhavv)?

My game runs smoothly and fast, but am I running with the graphics I see in the DX9 screenshots here, or the DX11 ones? I'm sorry if this has been answered, but I read all the replys and am still very confused.

Just tessellation I think.

sk065
Sep 22, 2010, 04:11 AM
Could someone oblige and do a DX10 vs DX11 comparison?

Panda_Power
Sep 22, 2010, 04:35 AM
I don't think one person can because if your card only supports DX10 in the first place then you won't have access to DX11 and if you have a DX11 GPU then you only have the option to select DX9. You can't select DX10 with a DX11 GPU.

sk065
Sep 22, 2010, 05:00 AM
I don't think one person can because if your card only supports DX10 in the first place then you won't have access to DX11 and if you have a DX11 GPU then you only have the option to select DX9. You can't select DX10 with a DX11 GPU.

Fair point. Can anyone therefore confirm that DX10 cards get AA options on the setup menu and that DX10 supports unit reflections on water?

Thanks

Shurdus
Sep 22, 2010, 05:18 AM
The dx9 graphics are meagre, but to upgrade to dx11 for this game... Haha, no.

tokala
Sep 22, 2010, 05:50 AM
I don't think one person can because if your card only supports DX10 in the first place then you won't have access to DX11 ... you can't select DX10 with a DX11 GPU.

You can select DX9 and 11 with a DX10 card. GTX 260 here. And you get all the options. And reflections :p

264653

exorbit
Sep 22, 2010, 06:14 AM
NO , dx 11 is not possible on 260 , this means that you won't get tesselation .. it improves the geometry of the terrain and costs a lot of resources !

frozenwings
Sep 22, 2010, 06:30 AM
I personally see no difference in those images besides shadows being turned off in DX9, some jagged edges from no AA (which can be turned on in DX9 through other methods), and reflections in DX11.

I have an Nvidia 275GTX and there is little to no performance gain in DX9 or DX10 games when compared to an Nvidia 460/465, in fact sometimes the older 275 actually pulls higher FPS in some DX9/DX10 games than the newer 4XX series. So spending 200-250 bucks on a new graphics card for no performance gain is a waste of money. Civ 5 is the only game coming out for a while that I'm playing that even utilizes DX11.

So if you aren't big on reflections and already have a decent card that can force AA in DX9, I wouldn't upgrade to a new card for this game quite yet. Wait until the next series of DX11 cards to get your money's worth.

tokala
Sep 22, 2010, 06:39 AM
NO , dx 11 is not possible on 260 , this means that you won't get tesselation .. it improves the geometry of the terrain and costs a lot of resources !

That a GTX260 does not support DX11 in hardware was not the question. If it runs Civ5 in DX11 mode (software) was. And it does :p
Even on DX11 hardware tesselation is NOT heavily used in Civ5, indicated by the fact that people run maximum tesselation on HD5000 series cards without problems. Probably primarily used for performance increase, not for detail increase ;)

Azazell
Sep 22, 2010, 06:41 AM
I have a gtx 260 and I do not see difference between DX 9 (with AAx8) and DX 11 (With AAx8).

I playing in 1680x1050, details is max, AAx8 and is so great!

routehero
Sep 22, 2010, 06:43 AM
I bought a GTX 460 for $220 CAD yesterday for this game alone.

The game was generally running fine on my Quadro 1800 (came with my Dell, but I don't do AutoCAD), but the GTX460 smokes it.

No regrets. It's only $220, and will keep humming along for future PC titles.

Would I spend $400-$600 on the upper end of cards? Nope.

Last pet peeve in Civ5: computer takes a long time to take his turn. I've got a Xeon 5506 (quad core 2.13GHz) and it is generally sitting around 30% utilization mid-game. :(

Lightzy
Sep 22, 2010, 07:54 AM
It's funny that you point out so many small differences but not the farmlands which compose the most of the picture and show the biggest difference =^.^=

damicatz
Sep 22, 2010, 08:00 AM
This is completely incorrect, DX10 does NOT have tessellation. This was implemented into DX11 cards, and even if DX10 manage to support it, it would not be able to run it as none of the DX10 cards have dedicated tessellation processing like the HD 5000 and GTX 400 range does.

Do your homework on DX11, DX10 CANNOT even run this:

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/4558/heaven.gif (http://img830.imageshack.us/i/heaven.gif/)

Its funny that DX11 and Tessellation are working so great in Civ V, but as usual, tech noobs on the forums are quick to write it off as something that is meaningless and would work on older hardware when it absolutely wouldnt.

Eh, I beg to differ :
http://tsedrive.com/2010/02/11/nvidia-demonstrates-directx-10-tessellation/

It may not be an official feature of the API but it is possible using geometry shaders.

Panda_Power
Sep 22, 2010, 08:04 AM
I have a gtx 260 and I do not see difference between DX 9 (with AAx8) and DX 11 (With AAx8).


Lol, we're going around in circles!

You see no difference because your card doesn't support DX11. What you're looking at is the difference between DX9 and DX10 and there is none!

Azazell
Sep 22, 2010, 08:42 AM
Lol, we're going around in circles!

You see no difference because your card doesn't support DX11. What you're looking at is the difference between DX9 and DX10 and there is none!

Hehe no.. I looking for the picture in this site! And I doesnt see difference :(.

When i see picture from DX 11 .. I play game DX9 AAx8 and dont see difference.

frozenwings
Sep 22, 2010, 09:32 AM
Lol, we're going around in circles!

You see no difference because your card doesn't support DX11. What you're looking at is the difference between DX9 and DX10 and there is none!

Just from the pictures posted. There is almost no difference besides the AA and reflections. Also, shadows are turned off or on low in the shots of DX9 for some reason, but they are definitely an option. Makes me wonder what other options were turned off or on low, like textures. The land in my game looks way better than the land posted in the DX9 shots here. Regardless, I think you really need higher quality/larger area textures for DX11 to really make a difference.

All in all, this review has just convinced me to NOT buy a DX11 card quite yet. This game is not worth upgrading from a decent last generation Nvidia card to a new one. I'm not sure about ATI, but the overall performance increase between the 2XX cards to the comparable 4XX cards by Nvidia is very disappointing for non DX11 games, which are pretty much all games at this point. I'm hoping Nvidia will release a new gpu that will justify upgrading from a 2XX card before another game comes out (that I want to play) that actually takes full advantage of DX11.

I am not saying the 4XX cards suck at all, they just aren't really an improvement over a good 2XX card for games like Dragon Age, Fallout 3, Mass Effect, i.e. games without DX11. If you have a 9xxx series nvidia card or older, and are looking for a new card, an Nvidia 460 (or better) is a great new card to invest in. If you have a 260 or higher, I would wait it out a bit longer if you plan on buying Nvidia and want DX11 AND a good performance increase.

Back to the main point: Civ5 appears to have only a slight difference between the two if you know how to force AA, unless the screen shots are just messed up.

Dementual
Sep 22, 2010, 09:55 AM
The most annoying thing the DirectX 9 version does is suck miserably at preloading textures, because it has to load new textures every time I move the map, especially in places that I've already been looking at a lot.

frozenwings
Sep 22, 2010, 10:07 AM
The most annoying thing the DirectX 9 version does is suck miserably at preloading textures, because it has to load new textures every time I move the map, especially in places that I've already been looking at a lot.

Is that a DX9 issue only? I agree, it is very annoying when loading up a saved game.

PEACE!
Sep 22, 2010, 10:11 AM
where can I find out what GTX am I using? :/

tokala
Sep 22, 2010, 10:11 AM
Is that a DX9 issue only? I agree, it is very annoying when loading up a saved game.

After finally getting DX11 mode to work, that problem was gone for me.

Rub'Rum
Sep 22, 2010, 10:13 AM
The most annoying thing the DirectX 9 version does is suck miserably at preloading textures, because it has to load new textures every time I move the map, especially in places that I've already been looking at a lot.

Yes! That's my big problem right now. The game runs smoothly though. I could run it with DX 10 or 11 but I have Windows XP! Argh...

But yeah, textures take a second or two to load. It's annoying. My frames per second are very good, the game is smooth, why are the textures taking a while to load?

Edit: Anti-aliasing should be available for DX9, like in... every other game I own.

Panda_Power
Sep 22, 2010, 11:06 AM
http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX9_Beijing_Cropped.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX9_Beijing_Full.jpg)http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX11_Beijing_Cropped.jpg (http://www.civfanatics.com/ainwood/DX11_Beijing_Full.jpg)


Not sure if this has been asked, but why is the pyramid built in the sea?

frozenwings
Sep 22, 2010, 11:08 AM
You can force AA with the Nvidia control panel with DX9. Not having AA for DX9 in game was a bad idea, but it only takes about a minute to do it manually. If you have ATI, I assume they have something similar.

Rub'Rum
Sep 22, 2010, 11:17 AM
You can force AA with the Nvidia control panel with DX9. Not having AA for DX9 in game was a bad idea, but it only takes about a minute to do it manually. If you have ATI, I assume they have something similar.

I'm using ATI, I'll have to check but I'm not sure. In any case, I hope that there's a way to set it to force AA only for certain games. Like "force AA when I boot civ5.exe" or something like that.

Resender
Sep 22, 2010, 12:11 PM
Not sure if this has been asked, but why is the pyramid built in the sea?

maybe its an atlantian pyramid

frozenwings
Sep 22, 2010, 02:06 PM
I'm using ATI, I'll have to check but I'm not sure. In any case, I hope that there's a way to set it to force AA only for certain games. Like "force AA when I boot civ5.exe" or something like that.

I'm not sure about ATI, but that's exactly how it is in Nvidia's control panel. You select .exe of the game and change the settings by game. There are global options, but obviously you already figured out why that would be a bad idea.

Here's a pic of what it looks like:

HahnHolio
Sep 22, 2010, 02:15 PM
I'm using ATI, I'll have to check but I'm not sure. In any case, I hope that there's a way to set it to force AA only for certain games. Like "force AA when I boot civ5.exe" or something like that.

well, with the latest Catalyst Control Center you got the option of 'profiles' too...

Just create your new profile using AA or whatever you need and your set to go ...

and, why is this thread all about Nvidia cards (yah, the reviewer is paid for this i know) ... ATI, imho, has the better cards for even less bucks ... so ... ah, whatever ... forget that!

P.S.: screw companies that get sponsored by any GFX producing company ... you wont see the difference in the end (just my 2 cent)

bhavv
Sep 22, 2010, 03:52 PM
ATI, imho, has the better cards for even less bucks ... so ... ah, whatever ... forget that!


Not true at all anymore. GTX 450 is Cheaper than a 5770, and is completely capable of running Civ V, plus it has better DX11 performance.

GTX 460 768 Mb is the same price as a 5770 and vastly better.

GTX 460 1 Gb is significantly cheaper than a 5850, yet still has great performance for absolutely anything, ot forgetting vastly better DX11 performance.

GTX 460 SLI is over 100 cheaper than a 5970, and performs the same if not better because SLI scaling is much better than crossfire is.

However, all of that is likely going to be very temporary until the next ATI range is released in a couple of months.

you wont see the difference in the end (just my 2 cent)

I definitely saw a huge improvement going from 2x 5770 to 2x GTX 460, especially so in tessellation benchmarks (yes, games are now going to start using tessellation). Although I've used ATI since the HD 3800 range due to them having better prices and having only had crossfire support back then on Intel motherboards, right now ATI pricing is most definitely very greedy on the 5850+. The 5800 / 5900 cards are ot worth the price. The 5770 still remains good, however it is rubbish against a GTX 460 768 Mb which can be had for the same price.

Rub'Rum
Sep 22, 2010, 03:52 PM
well, with the latest Catalyst Control Center you got the option of 'profiles' too...

Just create your new profile using AA or whatever you need and your set to go ...

Profiles doesn't work. It still means I have to activate my profile every time I wanna play Civ V. Basically, I have to do something every time I want to booth Civ V with some AA. It doesn't seem to be the case with NVIDIA, since you can tell it to use AA whenever your boot a game like Civ, and then it deactivates itself when you quit.

Yeah bla bla it's just one click, but I forget all the time.

flu5ky
Sep 22, 2010, 04:26 PM
Hi to all.(my 1st post here)

Most of here was talking about dx9 or dx10/11. that is why i watch this topic, but...i have the same problem with loading textures on Dx9, every time i select an unit, my camera scroll fast to that, but I must wait 1 or 2 seconds to "reload" textuers of terrain. I have only 256 MB graphic card in my NB (ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3400 series).
Civ 5 (demo) runs quick on low/mid settings, so I decided to pre-order full game (must wait 2 days - Slovakia). I hope that the updates or full release will remove red artefacts, and maybe some other graphic issues.
Or....god bless Blue marble creators :-)

(and sorry my english, not my speaking language)

fluffsuit
Sep 22, 2010, 04:43 PM
what i'm wondering is this: i have a dx10 card, but am currently running windows xp (iMac with bootcamp and xp was the cheapest OS so let's not get into it). would upgrading to windows 7 be worth it? seeing as i still would be stuck with dx10. really all i'm looking for is what the framerate would be. i'm guessing there'd be some graphical improvements, but it'd really suck to spend the money to upgrade, only to have the framerate drop.

exorbit
Sep 22, 2010, 05:08 PM
What is your card, fluffsuit ? the graphics are much better in dx10 and only a slight framerate drop . The major drop comes with dx11 where there is tesselation that requires a lot of processing power

fluffsuit
Sep 22, 2010, 05:45 PM
ati 2400 hd, 256MB. its apparently below the minimum requirements for the game and yet the game runs smooth as butter.

exorbit
Sep 22, 2010, 06:13 PM
nope , let it on dx9 !

RichardMNixon
Sep 22, 2010, 09:55 PM
Would buying that card from Nvidia add the deluxe content to a copy of the standard game I already purchased or would I need to get the video card first and then buy the deluxe edition? I'm on an 8600GT so a new card wouldn't exactly hurt.

frozenwings
Sep 22, 2010, 09:57 PM
ati 2400 hd, 256MB. its apparently below the minimum requirements for the game and yet the game runs smooth as butter.

The thing is DX10 isn't enough to run this game in DX10/11. There isn't a DX10 only option, it uses BOTH DX10 and DX11 together. So if your card has no DX11 support, even if it's DX10, there is no reason to run it DX10/11 because the game will run like crap.

tokala
Sep 23, 2010, 12:21 AM
The thing is DX10 isn't enough to run this game in DX10/11. There isn't a DX10 only option, it uses BOTH DX10 and DX11 together. So if your card has no DX11 support, even if it's DX10, there is no reason to run it DX10/11 because the game will run like crap.

That's nonsense :rolleyes:
It runs BETTER in DX11 mode than in DX9 mode on my DX10 GTX260 :lol:

frozenwings
Sep 23, 2010, 12:31 AM
That's nonsense :rolleyes:
It runs BETTER in DX11 mode than in DX9 mode on my DX10 GTX260 :lol:

Not sure if you mean it's nonsense that it runs poorly, or that the game doesn't run in DX10 without DX11? There is no DX10 only mode.

The game runs like utter crap on my 275GTX in DX10/DX11 mode, and I feel like it's a common issue for most people with DX10 cards from what I've seen on various boards. Runs at 60FPS at max with force 8x AA in DX9.

Ayt
Sep 23, 2010, 12:47 AM
I can run mine easily in DX10/11 mode with 4AA and everything set to high with my DX10 card (HD4770) with no performance issues.

tokala
Sep 23, 2010, 12:51 AM
I was referring to that sentence:

So if your card has no DX11 support, even if it's DX10, there is no reason to run it DX10/11 because the game will run like crap.

which is certainly not applicable in my case.

I drop just below 20 fps when scrolling zoomed out on a busy map. Zoomed in consistently >30fps, on max settings. Could be better, but certainly not "crap" :confused:

frozenwings
Sep 23, 2010, 12:55 AM
I guess crap is subjective then :p

I'd rather run at 60FPS and take a barely noticeable loss in Graphics than play around 25-30FPS. Lag kills my desire to play games.

Honestly, after switching back and forth between the two versions, DX9 actually looks BETTER to me than DX11. The menus also respond a lot more smoothly. It probably has something to do with not having DX11 and the way it works with AA, but the in game AA is garbage in DX11 compared with the forced AA in DX9.

tokala
Sep 23, 2010, 01:29 AM
I guess crap is subjective then :p

I'd rather run at 60FPS and take a barely noticeable loss in Graphics than play around 25-30FPS. Lag kills my desire to play games.


I'm like that in FPS and RTSes, too, but TBS? No problem with a bit of lag :)

And I still have the nagging suspicion that it's the CPU that's responsible for the lag. Do you have a fast quad-core?

kcd_swede
Sep 23, 2010, 01:34 AM
Civilization 5 ships with two versions: a DX9 version, and a DX11 version. In this review here, I will endeavor to show you the differences between the two; but first a word on availability:

In order to play the directx 11 version, you need to have both a video card that supports DX11 (ATI Radeon 5XXX or higher, or NVIDIA GeForce 4XX or higher), and an operating system that supports DX11 as well: Windows 7, or Vista (SP2).



Does the purchase of the game on disks come with both the DX9 and DX11 versions and you just pick which one to install/play?

What exactly is the CivV upgrade to "Digital Deluxe Version" that is being offered? Is this just added downloadable content to the game, or is it something related to graphics and playing the DX11 version?

I don't get it.

chaotoroboto
Sep 23, 2010, 04:12 AM
Does the purchase of the game on disks come with both the DX9 and DX11 versions and you just pick which one to install/play?

What exactly is the CivV upgrade to "Digital Deluxe Version" that is being offered? Is this just added downloadable content to the game, or is it something related to graphics and playing the DX11 version?

I don't get it.

1. It has a DX9 version which has all of the DX10/11 code shut off. My computer won't run the DX11 version, crashes to the desktop when I start it. Runs the DX9 version like a charm.

2. Digital Deluxe is the Babylon DLC and some other stuff - music, that kind of thing. Babylon was the first Civ I won with, so I feel I got my money's worth.

frozenwings
Sep 23, 2010, 04:15 AM
I'm like that in FPS and RTSes, too, but TBS? No problem with a bit of lag :)

And I still have the nagging suspicion that it's the CPU that's responsible for the lag. Do you have a fast quad-core?

Obviously sitting at max frame rate isn't going to give me any advantages in civ compared to an fps or rts, but I really like everything to move fluidly. When things start to stutter even a little bit I start to get distracted.

I have a slightly overclocked amd phenom ii x4 955 at 3.62ghz. I think that's about nearly as fast as amd quad cores get. I played in dx11 for a bit tonight, and I honestly think dx9 looks and feels a lot better. I don't know if something is messed up with my drivers, my direct x, or my game install. Maybe its just time to invest in that new ati card I've been eyeing.

Gwoben
Sep 23, 2010, 08:09 AM
Hmm for me it is exactly the opposite. I have an older NVidia 9800 GT 512MB with I5 750 CPU and it runs much smoother in DX10/11 client. Finishing a standard size game now, no problems with frame rate at all. I was trying DX9 client first and it was extremely annoying to watch it redrawing textures whenever you move your map.

Robert_Marshall
Sep 23, 2010, 10:48 AM
Thanks for the review. I WAS worried about what I was missing. I will stick to version 9 for now.

Txurce
Sep 23, 2010, 11:48 AM
I have an Athlon quad-core, 4 GB RAM, and an ATI Radeon HD4200 graphics driver. So we know where the weak link is. Here are my findings and questions:

1. The 4200 is a DX10 card, and DX10/11 is all I can play. The game crashes when loading DX9. Did I do something wrong in the setup?

2. The settings default to AA "off" in every game. I've played with it off and on 2x, but didn't notice a difference. Should I?

3. I have all other settings on high and... it looks shockingly good. The AA is okay, and everything has that nice soft look except for the clouds (little movement, hex edges visible) and rivers (solid blue line). I can see bird flying, fish jumping, whitecaps shifting slowly. Would the game look better on a lower setting, given my card?

4. Maybe OT, but on strategic view the scrolling is locked down precise, the way I want it. On 3D view I'm having a harder time controlling it - hitting the brakes, so to speak. Is this because I'm used to a trackpad and handicapped to boot? Or is there a system/settings answer?

5. I was playing on a huge map with max civs, by the way. Even in the early stages, there was a 20-second or so lag when the AI moved.

Achilleslastand
Sep 23, 2010, 02:57 PM
I have a ATI 4850 and my direct x version as per my dxdiag is DX11. Im sure the 4850 can only handle 10 and not 11.
So how do i know which version the game is running?

ainwood
Sep 24, 2010, 12:42 AM
Just from the pictures posted. There is almost no difference besides the AA and reflections. Also, shadows are turned off or on low in the shots of DX9 for some reason, but they are definitely an option. Makes me wonder what other options were turned off or on low, like textures. The land in my game looks way better than the land posted in the DX9 shots here. Regardless, I think you really need higher quality/larger area textures for DX11 to really make a difference.

All settings (including shadows) were on "high" for both DX9 & DX11 versions. If you want a better perspective, then each of those pictures I posted was a hyperlink to a full-screen version.

bhavv
Sep 24, 2010, 02:11 AM
The differences are much more apparent after you've been playing the game on DX11 mode with everything at max settings, and the try out DX9. The amount of loss in image quality that you see while playing the game is far more significant than what you can see in screenshots.

kiwitt
Sep 24, 2010, 03:22 AM
They say an ATI 48xx is recommended yet I can't play DX11 ?

tokala
Sep 24, 2010, 03:47 AM
[QUOTE=kiwitt;9653508]They say an ATI 48xx is recommended yet I can't play DX11 ?[/QUOTE

Someone screwed up. DX11 mode on DX10 hardware runs really slow in Civ5 (or not at all). I have seen people getting ~150fps on a GTX460, while GTX2xx and Hd 48xx are struggling to get 30 fps.

bhavv
Sep 24, 2010, 04:17 AM
They say an ATI 48xx is recommended yet I can't play DX11 ?

ATI 48xx are not DX11 cards, they are DX10.

bonaldo2000
Sep 24, 2010, 05:55 AM
Ok, I am a bit confused. How many modes are available in this game?
If I have a DX9 card, obviously I will only get a DX9 mode. But if I have a DX10 card, will I get a DX10 mode? Or is there just the DX11 mode, but with software handling the tessellations? Which in other words means that if I have a DX10 card (which I do) I should really be running the DX9 mode?

tokala
Sep 24, 2010, 07:38 AM
Ok, I am a bit confused. How many modes are available in this game?
If I have a DX9 card, obviously I will only get a DX9 mode. But if I have a DX10 card, will I get a DX10 mode? Or is there just the DX11 mode, but with software handling the tessellations? Which in other words means that if I have a DX10 card (which I do) I should really be running the DX9 mode?
Test it. For some people the DX9 mode runs better with a DX10 card, for some people the DX11 mode :crazyeye:

jimkirk
Sep 24, 2010, 09:41 AM
but would that card work with an asus p5ne sli mainboard? or is it too big .. i have about 500 watt power supply

kiwitt
Sep 24, 2010, 12:26 PM
I am disappointed. I was hoping not to have to buy a new graphics card until HD 68xx series came out. Should I wait - is DX9 good enough.

The rest of my system is great: Core i7, Win 7x64, 6 GB of RAM, 10,000rpm HDD

Jase201
Sep 24, 2010, 12:28 PM
I don't know.....Someone asked how do you find out what dx version your particular video card is using and he didn't get a response. I have the same question.

I have a Nvidia 9800 GTX and I choose the 10/11 option max settings with the aliasing set at 8 and zero problems.

For those saying you can't choose the 10 option, you clearly can; in fact on my stream it says 10/11 (Recommended.)

Whether it actually does anything is a whole other issue...

Edit: Never mind, I did a dxdiag and it says I have DirectX Version: 11

bhavv
Sep 24, 2010, 04:20 PM
I don't know.....Someone asked how do you find out what dx version your particular video card is using and he didn't get a response. I have the same question.

I have a Nvidia 9800 GTX and I choose the 10/11 option max settings with the aliasing set at 8 and zero problems.

For those saying you can't choose the 10 option, you clearly can; in fact on my stream it says 10/11 (Recommended.)

Whether it actually does anything is a whole other issue...

Edit: Never mind, I did a dxdiag and it says I have DirectX Version: 11

DXdiag tells you which DX version you have installed, not which one your card supports. The 9800 GTX is a DX10 card and will work in DX10 / 11 mode, but shouldnt support tessellation.

I am disappointed. I was hoping not to have to buy a new graphics card until HD 68xx series came out. Should I wait - is DX9 good enough.

The rest of my system is great: Core i7, Win 7x64, 6 GB of RAM, 10,000rpm HDD

If all you're looking for is a card to play Civ V, then a GTX 450 is completely fine.

Ayt
Sep 24, 2010, 09:06 PM
I am disappointed. I was hoping not to have to buy a new graphics card until HD 68xx series came out. Should I wait - is DX9 good enough.

The rest of my system is great: Core i7, Win 7x64, 6 GB of RAM, 10,000rpm HDD

Play it in DX10/11 mode. It will be fine. I can play it with everything maxed out with 4AA in 1920x1080 with my HD4770.

PEACE!
Sep 24, 2010, 09:26 PM
but what if I use DirectX10? o.O

Txurce
Sep 24, 2010, 09:57 PM
I'm using an HD4200, playing on DX10, and the visuals are perfect except for the oceans rolling slowly, and the hexes semi-visible on the cloud edges. I'm kinda shocked. My settings are all high, with leaders on medium. Would changing these settings give me better performance on some level?

BjoernLars
Sep 24, 2010, 11:01 PM
Meh... the increase of graphics is trivial to me. Doesn't make me want to upgrade Windows XP.

6295603
Sep 25, 2010, 01:01 AM
My CIV5 keeps crashing with DX10/11 but if I select DX9 CIV5 then it works without any problems.

Any tips?


System:


Lenovo Thinkpad W500, DX11 installed. Windows 7. 4 gt ram. ATI Mobility FIREGL V5700. Latest drivers installedaccording to ThinkVantage update.

usmle
Sep 25, 2010, 08:34 AM
You guys know you can force AA in the Nvidia control panel in specific applications, right? I have no idea why they disabled AA in DX9, but you can definitely force it and it looks just as good (to me anyway) as in the DX11 in game AA options. Granted you don't get all the benefits of DX11, but at least all the edges are smoothed out.

Now this is obviously going to put a strain on your graphics card so if you're running Civ 5 on a graphics card that is between minimum and recommended, you might get some lag. For the Nvidia side, this will probably work best on a 200 series card. Not sure if you can force AA with ATI drivers.

You noted that the shadows were great in DX11, but you it doesn't appear you even have them turned on in DX9 from looking at the screen shots. The only difference I can tell between Civ 5 with forced AA in DX9 and Civ 5 with the AA in DX11, is that there are no reflections in DX9.


The shadows are very light, but present, in DX9 mode. At first glance I thought they were missing too. I completely agree with this post by the way, DX11 will give you that extra bit of eye candy but if it runs slow for you definitely use DX9 and force NOT ONLY anti-aliasing but 16x anisotropic filtering as well for super crisp textures (just look at those farms :))

bonaldo2000
Sep 25, 2010, 08:57 AM
But what about this tesselation? What is it supposed to do?

usmle
Sep 25, 2010, 09:51 AM
But what about this tesselation? What is it supposed to do?

This link provides a reasonable explanation. IIRC, I remember reading that tessellation in Civ V is used in the leaderhead scenes. The leaderheads do look kinda last-gen on DX9 I have to admit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eTngR6M37Q

player1 fanatic
Sep 25, 2010, 12:26 PM
From GraphicsSettingsDX11.ini:

; Allows use of SM4.1 codepath (if supported)
AllowSM41 = 1

; Allows use of SM5.0 codepath (if supported)
AllowSM50 = 1

4.1 is DX10.1, 5.0 is DX11

What these options exactly mean is that if you have card that supports those modes (DX10.1/DX11), endgine will use additional code to make game run or look better. If neither of them is supported it would obviously use DX10 mode.

Hogar313
Sep 25, 2010, 03:07 PM
I don't think one person can because if your card only supports DX10 in the first place then you won't have access to DX11 and if you have a DX11 GPU then you only have the option to select DX9. You can't select DX10 with a DX11 GPU.

My freaking God... A mod should do something about all the c**p going on here.

First of all, everyone here thinks he's a hardware expert. Well, you're not! The fact that you read something posted by someone who heard it from someone who read it on a forum where someone posted a quote of someone who heard from someone who had a dream/hallucination about something ISN'T AN ARGUMENT! You guys are noobs, face it! And there'd be no problem in being a noob (everybody starts a newbie) if you weren't so damn provocative and stubborn about it!

Secondly, a GPU is a graphics processing unit, aka the core of a graphics card
. You can't have one with the other, so your statement that having a DX11 GPU will enable you to do anything is wrong for a DX11 GPU alone wouldn't even be able to run or even fit in any of the sockets on your motherboard.

@tokala "Someone screwed up. DX11 mode on DX10 hardware runs really slow in Civ5 (or not at all). I have seen people getting ~150fps on a GTX460, while GTX2xx and Hd 48xx are struggling to get 30 fps."

That is true. I can tell because I have an HD4890 (6GB RAM + AMD Phenom II x4 955). Average fps was 43.964 (Fraps).

Peace... Was never an option while stupidity existed.

Conditional Zenith
Sep 25, 2010, 04:59 PM
Has anyone managed to find an Australian retailer that's offering this promo?

bonaldo2000
Sep 25, 2010, 05:16 PM
Someone screwed up. DX11 mode on DX10 hardware runs really slow in Civ5 (or not at all). I have seen people getting ~150fps on a GTX460, while GTX2xx and Hd 48xx are struggling to get 30 fps.

Spot on! I also think something is wrong. If I have a DX10 card (which I do) and I select the DX 10/11 mode with recommended settings (all high and anti aliasing 4x), I should have a smooth framerate (I have an ATI 4870 card), but I don't.
I can't help but suspect that the DX 10/11 mode, when run on a DX10 card, uses software for some of the stuff that is hardware accelerated on a DX11 card. Just a hunch, though.

Ankh88
Sep 25, 2010, 06:24 PM
Lol, we're going around in circles!

You see no difference because your card doesn't support DX11. What you're looking at is the difference between DX9 and DX10 and there is none!

You are mistaken here.

The difference in Civ 5's graphics between Dx9 and Dx10 is vast. The difference between Dx10 and Dx11 is negligible.

I have a GTX-295, and am able to select the Dx10/Dx11 .exe just fine, turn on all the options, and the game is terrific-looking: the terrain looks just as detailed as the screenshots from the OP, I have lighting, shadows, reflections on the water, AA; it's all there.

If I try Dx9, not only is the detail much worse, but the performance is 30% slower as well.

I also don't know why people are having trouble editing their config.ini file to increase the zoom level. I bought a boxed copy of Civ 5, and had no trouble editing the file; it wasn't encrypted.

1BRASS1
Sep 25, 2010, 08:42 PM
You know, I LOVE Civilization, and this version is even better with better everything, except one thing. In Civ IV, I could hit the spacebar, (Enter in this version), and it would take a few seconds and then it would be my turn again. In this version, it seems to take FOREVER for it to be my turn again. Another thing, you would think this is because I am playing the DX11 version of the game, but, I loaded the same game with everything set at High, (Except AA, which is grayed out in DX9), but it takes the same amount of time between turns, just DX11 looks better. So I get better eye candy while I wait for my turn to play???

Now I know what you are thinking, I am playing on a low end machine. Well if it is, then this needs to be looked at by Firaxis:

Windows 7 Ultimate 64
Intel Core i7 920-QC
12gb DDR3 Ram
(2) NVidia GTX 280 in SLI

Anyone else seeing this?

Panda_Power
Sep 25, 2010, 11:41 PM
I also don't know why people are having trouble editing their config.ini file to increase the zoom level. I bought a boxed copy of Civ 5, and had no trouble editing the file; it wasn't encrypted.

Good to hear you're getting the same level of graphics.

The reason people couldn't edit their config file was because they were playing the demo and the config file was encrypted in the demo. The full game is fine.

Dearmad
Sep 26, 2010, 12:55 AM
Meh... the increase of graphics is trivial to me. Doesn't make me want to upgrade Windows XP.

I was a hold out for a long time... but I gotta tell you I LOVE Win7 over XP. It's a great OS compared to the other previous ones (my earlier favorite being DOS 3.3).

kiwitt
Sep 26, 2010, 01:28 AM
... my earlier favorite being DOS 3.3...Ditto ... I never liked 4.0, but 5.0 with it's access to more memory was great.

Win 7 and x64 well ... you'll never run out of memory (addresses that is).

Ignorant Teacher
Sep 26, 2010, 01:57 AM
All the time I try running Directx11, I can see the Civilization process starting, but then I get a WerFault.exe and they both disappear. Does anyone know why it happens or how to fix it? (Sorry if it's been asked already, such threads get big fast).

I was a hold out for a long time... but I gotta tell you I LOVE Win7 over XP. It's a great OS compared to the other previous ones (my earlier favorite being DOS 3.3).

As for me, Linux FTW, currently Ubuntu and learning Slackware.

Dark.Revenant
Sep 26, 2010, 02:09 AM
To answer everyone's questions:

If you have a DX10 card, you can run the DX10/11 mode. DX10 and DX11 are very similar but the DX11 features will only be available for DX11 cards that run in DX10/11 mode.

The texture quality and reflections are NOT DX9/10/11 differences; any difference in texture quality and reflections is artificial and does not have anything to do with the DX version. The true differences are much more subtle, for the most part. The actual differences are:
DX9 - AA is (or at least, technically should be) enabled
DX10/DX10.1 - AA is disabled (in every case that I know of), subtle improvements in visual quality (tessellation enabled for HD 4870 and 4890)
DX11 - AA is enabled, more subtle improvements, tessellation is enabled

DX10.1 is just an updated DX10 that just about every "DX10" card can support, even if it is not explicitly stated.

The HD 4870 and HD 4890 (and 4850?) have a tessellation unit. From what I can tell from my own tests, tessellation DOES work on these cards, even though they are DX10. This may or may not be related to the fact that they have a tessellation unit, because geometry tessellation is possible in DX9, DX10, and DX11 through various means, though DX11 is vastly more efficient at it. I just know that with all of the settings on High with my HD 4870, the framerate takes a pounding when I scroll, but it's a solid 60fps when the camera does not move very much. This may be because I have a dual core CPU, though. It may also be because of the tessellation.

Ignorant Teacher
Sep 26, 2010, 02:14 AM
To answer everyone's questions:

If you have a DX10 card, you can run the DX10/11 mode. DX10 and DX11 are very similar but the DX11 features will only be available for DX11 cards that run in DX10/11 mode.

The texture quality and reflections are NOT DX9/10/11 differences; any difference in texture quality and reflections is artificial and does not have anything to do with the DX version. The true differences are much more subtle, for the most part. The actual differences are:
DX9 - AA is (or at least, technically should be) enabled
DX10/DX10.1 - AA is disabled (in every case that I know of), subtle improvements in visual quality (tessellation enabled for HD 4870 and 4890)
DX11 - AA is enabled, more subtle improvements, tessellation is enabled

DX10.1 is just an updated DX10 that just about every "DX10" card can support, even if it is not explicitly stated.

The HD 4870 and HD 4890 (and 4850?) have a tessellation unit. From what I can tell from my own tests, tessellation DOES work on these cards, even though they are DX10. This may or may not be related to the fact that they have a tessellation unit, because geometry tessellation is possible in DX9, DX10, and DX11 through various means, though DX11 is vastly more efficient at it. I just know that with all of the settings on High with my HD 4870, the framerate takes a pounding when I scroll, but it's a solid 60fps when the camera does not move very much. This may be because I have a dual core CPU, though. It may also be because of the tessellation.

What?!?

bonaldo2000
Sep 26, 2010, 03:42 AM
Regarding slow scrolling speed (which I also suffer from), that could never have anything to do with the CPU can it? That should be all down to graphics card?

player1 fanatic
Sep 26, 2010, 04:59 AM
DX9 - AA is (or at least, technically should be) enabled
DX10/DX10.1 - AA is disabled (in every case that I know of), subtle improvements in visual quality (tessellation enabled for HD 4870 and 4890)
DX11 - AA is enabled, more subtle improvements, tessellation is enabled

There is something mixed up here.
In DX9 mode, you can't enable AA in-game, exempt when forcing through drivers.
With "DX11" exe, DX10.1 cards have AA in-game and works perfectly. Tested on 4850 radeon. Probably true for DX10.0 cards too (GTS/GTX 2xx users should confirm this).

As far as I know, only DX9 mode prevents use of AA (in-game), and it is not first game that does that.
For example, Bioshock when released, also didn't allowed AA in DX9 mode. And there are many other games too.

^still, it doesn't prevent use of AA through drivers, of course.

DX10.1 is just an updated DX10 that just about every "DX10" card can support, even if it is not explicitly stated.

This is plain false!

GTS and GTX cards from 200 series, as well as older models, don't support DX10.1
Only 4000 series radeons do. As well as weaker GT cards from 200 series (G210/GT220/GT240).



P.S.
Anyway, what matters for users is that in DX9 mode, newer card is crippled to not use its DX10 or DX11 features. Also, it's only mode that works in WinXP.

On the other hand, with "DX11 exe", card will use all features it can. DX10 just core stuff, DX10.1 additional 4.1 codepatch, DX11 additional 5.0 codepatch. You can manually tune this through ini files. For example disable DX11 features, but keep DX10/10.1 ones.

player1 fanatic
Sep 26, 2010, 05:08 AM
DX10.1 is just an updated DX10 that just about every "DX10" card can support, even if it is not explicitly stated.

This is plain false!

GTS and GTX cards from 200 series, as well as older models, don't support DX10.1
Only 4000 series radeons do. As well as weaker GT cards from 200 series (G210/GT220/GT240).

bruntfca
Sep 26, 2010, 05:13 AM
Regarding slow scrolling speed (which I also suffer from), that could never have anything to do with the CPU can it? That should be all down to graphics card?

I think I found the a reason for slow scrolling speed amongst other things. Yes CPU starvation can cause graphical slowness eventually especially as the untilization gets very high. For example I've seen Opera browser shoot up to 90% CPU when its running say 20 tabs, and a lot of flash garbage - games suddenly come to a crawl.

I think I've discovered a new bug in Civ5 anyway, and this may be causing the problem, I also made a separate thread about this,

"If you play for a while at a nice smooth 40FPS+, then for some reason you drop down to a chuggy 15FPS, I think I've found the reason.

I have a 8800GTX 756MB, it was the one of the first DX10 cards released. I've played around with DX9/DX11 and found that in the end the card will run OK in the DX11 option. So in a nutshell if my generation 1 DX10 card can run it yours should too.

On an aside note, if you must run in DX9, turn on Aniostropic Filtering, 2 times Anti Aliasing in the control panel of your graphics card. For some reason the Devs disabled these options in game for DX9, the result is the textured look like junk, and the roads are almost invisible.

I've tracked down the slowness bug to what I believe to be a problem with the multi-threading. The nice thing about Civ5 is that while the CPU take its turn, you can open dialogs, check things, and **even initiate diplomacy**.

Now this is pretty cool, as it basically means there's no real reason to "wait" for the computers turn. Except there's a slight problem! I found that if I frequently accessed the diplomacy dialogs during the CPUs turn, when it came back to my turn, I could randomly lose about 30FPS!

It was a chuggy mess, and for me anything uder 15FPS is just too annoying to bother with. These are the exact same symptoms I get in games if I run too many processes that steal CPU. What I think is happening here is that somehow the thread that runs diplomacy concurrently with the CPU turn does not get cleaned up correctly.

In effect Bismark or whoever, may now be running in a background thread eating up more and more of your CPU. Since this is an internal thread you can't kill it from Task Manager, you simply have to restart the entire game from the windows desktop. The moral of the story is that it's best to leave the interface alone until the CPU has finished, for fear of triggering this bug."

TheLean
Sep 26, 2010, 05:25 AM
I have a 8800gt card with dx10.0 and the demo run like crap in dx10/11 mode but fine on dx9.

Based on this and what others have said it seems 10.0 cards cant play civ5 on dx10/11 mode with good performance but dx10.1 cards can. When dx10.1 came out a few years ago there was a big hallabaloo about it being much more optimized and faster than dx10.

player1 fanatic
Sep 26, 2010, 06:02 AM
^Just note that by default DX10/11 mode has 4xAA, while DX9 mode has none. When comparing performance, both need to be turned off. I mean, it is expected for DX10/11 mode to run slower with AA on, compared to DX9 with AA off.


P.S.
Anyone tried benchmarking difference between DX10/11 mode with AA at 4x, and DX9 mode with 4xAA added through drivers?

Baleur
Sep 26, 2010, 08:55 AM
This is completely incorrect, DX10 does NOT have tessellation. This was implemented into DX11 cards, and even if DX10 manage to support it, it would not be able to run it as none of the DX10 cards have dedicated tessellation processing like the HD 5000 and GTX 400 range does.

Do your homework on DX11, DX10 CANNOT even run this:

http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/4558/heaven.gif (http://img830.imageshack.us/i/heaven.gif/)

Its funny that DX11 and Tessellation are working so great in Civ V, but as usual, tech noobs on the forums are quick to write it off as something that is meaningless and would work on older hardware when it absolutely wouldnt.

Well the Tessellation setting in the game makes a difference for me, on High the mountains and hills are incredibly crisp and detailed (super high polycount), while at medium and low the reduction is easily visible.
I'm running a 250GTS, a dx10 card, so..

I'm talking about the ingame settings, what else would we be talking about?
I know that tessellation on the fly (reducing and increasing by zoom level) is only in dx11, but the tessellation setting in the game definetly works and has an effect in dx10 as well.
Maybe they should just rename that setting to "Terrain polycount" to avoid confusion amongst the tech-nazis ^_^

Panda_Power
Sep 26, 2010, 09:00 AM
My freaking God... A mod should do something about all the c**p going on here. Have you even played the game you dummie?! In the launcher, you have two options: DX9 and DX10/11. And if there were three options, why wouldn't you be able to select DX10 with a DX11 card anyway you basher? Gosh...


If you'd read my original reply properly, you would have understood, so I'll try to make it simple for you.

Someone wanted to do a DX10 vs DX11 comparison.

If you have a DX9/10 card you can't do the comparison because you can't take advantage of DX11.

If you have a DX11 card you can't do the comparison because you can only select DX10/11 or DX9.

The only way to do a DX10 vs DX11 comparison with a DX11 GPU would be if they'd added DX10 as a separate option.

player1 fanatic
Sep 26, 2010, 03:28 PM
^Not really. As mentioned before in thread, you can manually disable 5.0 codepath in the ini files.

So essentially, DX11 card can run with just DX10 features enabled, if you wanted so.

Thus, with DX11 card, you can do DX11 vs DX10 comparison.

BiffMan
Sep 26, 2010, 10:47 PM
The HD 4870 and HD 4890 (and 4850?) have a tessellation unit. From what I can tell from my own tests, tessellation DOES work on these cards, even though they are DX10. This may or may not be related to the fact that they have a tessellation unit, because geometry tessellation is possible in DX9, DX10, and DX11 through various means, though DX11 is vastly more efficient at it. I just know that with all of the settings on High with my HD 4870, the framerate takes a pounding when I scroll, but it's a solid 60fps when the camera does not move very much. This may be because I have a dual core CPU, though. It may also be because of the tessellation.

I concur on the tessellation unit on the 4870 & 4890 (as stated in the specifications on AMD's site) and while I'm sure it's not nearly as efficient as something that's native DX11, on my 4870 crossfire setup, I don't notice any performance hit on any setting of tessallation, but I do see a noticeable visual quality improvement on higher tessallation settings, so it's definitely doing something and the lack of performance hit seems to indicate that I am seeing some hardware accelleration at work there.

I also get the scrolling issue and that's really the only time anywhere in the game (aside from end of turn when I'm sure I'm CPU throttled) that I get any choppiness at all and as soon as you stop scrolling, it goes back to full speed and there's no visual quality hit while scrolling, so I don't think it's altering visual quality during a scroll or anything. Hoping this is something patchable.

BuddhaBubba
Sep 26, 2010, 11:55 PM
I hope you guys are getting a little kickback for this... you just sold me.

player1 fanatic
Sep 27, 2010, 02:46 AM
Scrolling choppiness is CPU limiting factor.

If you, for example, reduce number of cores that game process uses (from taskbar), scrolling choppiness will be much higher, while when not moving anything frame rate will stay the same, regardless of number of cores used.

tokala
Sep 27, 2010, 04:09 AM
Scrolling choppiness is CPU limiting factor.

If you, for example, reduce number of cores that game process uses (from taskbar), scrolling choppiness will be much higher, while when not moving anything frame rate will stay the same, regardless of number of cores used.

Does using more than 2 cores actually reduce the scrolling choppiness? And if it does, how well does it scale with more cores?

Carl5872
Sep 27, 2010, 11:54 AM
Im looking to buy a new laptop, and wanted it to be the best possible for CIV V. Can someone post a link to a laptop that would play CIV V at its highest settings? I have about a $2,000 budget.

Hogar313
Sep 27, 2010, 03:22 PM
If you'd read my original reply properly, you would have understood, so I'll try to make it simple for you.

Someone wanted to do a DX10 vs DX11 comparison.

If you have a DX9/10 card you can't do the comparison because you can't take advantage of DX11.

If you have a DX11 card you can't do the comparison because you can only select DX10/11 or DX9.

The only way to do a DX10 vs DX11 comparison with a DX11 GPU would be if they'd added DX10 as a separate option.

That makes much more sense. My anger continues because of your attitude towards DX10 that is totally unjustified.

Peace.

PS: Also, I notice huge difference between DX10/11 and DX9 on my Radeon HD4890, particularly in textures that are much more detailed in DX10. But DX10 runs around 40% slower. So that is a heads up for all of you that want to know if there's a difference.

Auncien
Sep 27, 2010, 06:39 PM
You should charge fair market value for advertisements on your website rather than having moderators post advertorials.

I thought Civfanatics was better than being someone's viral marketing pawn. This is simply very bad editorial judgement in my opinion. You guys are getting used hardcore.

The OP even used "the way it's meant to be played" Nvidia slogan.

kiwitt
Sep 28, 2010, 01:42 AM
After installing and running the game, I encountered no problems with it DX10/DX11 mode.

All settings on high and 1920x1200 resolution.

Core i7 920, 6 Gb RAM, ATI 4870 512 MB Oc'd. Win 7 x64

dweebit
Sep 28, 2010, 04:39 AM
Someone tell me why a sales pitch for an unnecessary graphics card is stickied here. Civ used to be about game play, not shiny :):):):).

player1 fanatic
Sep 28, 2010, 06:23 AM
Does using more than 2 cores actually reduce the scrolling choppiness? And if it does, how well does it scale with more cores?

Well, with my 3 core Phenom 720, with every core less, there was more choppiness.

Hogar313
Sep 28, 2010, 11:38 AM
After installing and running the game, I encountered no problems with it DX10/DX11 mode.

All settings on high and 1920x1200 resolution.

Core i7 920, 6 Gb RAM, ATI 4870 512 MB Oc'd. Win 7 x64

Strange... What do you mean by "no problems"? What is the framerate? I have a similar PC (6GB RAM, Phenom II 955 @ 3.6GHz + HD4890 1GB @ 910/1010Mhz, Win7 x64) and I have a pretty rubbish framerate (sometimes drops to around 30). I run it on 1680x1050.

Carl5872
Sep 28, 2010, 11:53 AM
Can anyone explain the difference to a person who doesnt know much about computers and in a paragraph or two?

player1 fanatic
Sep 28, 2010, 12:49 PM
You have pictures at first page. ;)

kiwitt
Sep 28, 2010, 06:01 PM
Strange... What do you mean by "no problems"? What is the framerate? I have a similar PC (6GB RAM, Phenom II 955 @ 3.6GHz + HD4890 1GB @ 910/1010Mhz, Win7 x64) and I have a pretty rubbish framerate (sometimes drops to around 30). I run it on 1680x1050.It plays really smoothly, which is all that counts.

How do I check the frame-rate ?

player1 fanatic
Sep 28, 2010, 06:28 PM
Fraps:
http://www.fraps.com/download.php

Panda_Power
Sep 28, 2010, 09:42 PM
I have a similar system I built myself and I play the game in DX11 mode with all settings on high:

i7 920 @ 3.8GHz
XFX 5870 (ATI CCC settings at maximum quality)
6GB RAM
26" monitor @ 1920x1200
Windows 7 64bit

Starting a new game running Fraps the FPS seem to be capped at 60 because it doesn't go any lower and doesn't go any higher.

I then loaded my current game where I'm on turn 235 and things are pretty busy and playing at my usual zoom level I get between 45-50 fps, but if I zoom all the way out it drops down to around 35.

Changing my settings from "quality" to "performance" would probably speed things up, but it plays OK for me.

rbj2001
Sep 28, 2010, 11:41 PM
I have a GTX 260 and running at 1920x1200 the framerate is a lot worse in DX10 mode than DX9 mode.

I don't know if it's been said because I haven't read the whole thread, but from the screenshots it just looks like they've made the textures more detailed for the DX10/11 version, which could explain why DX10/11 is slower. Maybe they programmed it and found the two versions looked identical and thought "hey, we have to make DX11 look better somehow" so reduced the texture detail, greyed out AA and turned off refections for DX9. I mean, DX9 is perfectly capable of producing amazing graphics - remember the Crysis fiasco, where they decided to to cripple to DX9 version to promote it as a DX10 game - which worked until people hacked the config files, whereupon the two versions looked the same (with DX9 version running faster).

If you need to zoom in past what's allowed by default to see the difference, you have to wonder whether the extra detailed textures are worth it. How about some comparison screenshots at normal magnification?

Re: water reflections, there's a setting in the GraphicsSettingsDX9.cfg file called
ReflectionLevel = 0
I haven't tried changing it, but it's set to 1 in the DX11 file and 0 in the DX9 file. Maybe someone could try changing it and take a screenshot of the difference.

ainwood
Sep 29, 2010, 12:05 AM
Starting a new game running Fraps the FPS seem to be capped at 60 because it doesn't go any lower and doesn't go any higher.
Yes - that's the effect of "Wait for Vertical Sync", or "vSync" as it says in the options screen. It synchronizes the frame rate with the refresh rate of your monitor.

If you need to zoom in past what's allowed by default to see the difference, you have to wonder whether the extra detailed textures are worth it. How about some comparison screenshots at normal magnification?

I believe that the unit ones were actually default zoom, but cropped. Click on the screen shots to get the full, uncropped versions

rbj2001
Sep 29, 2010, 12:38 AM
^ Possibly... I don't play zoomed as close as it will go myself though. :) Was thinking at normal playing zooms.

Also it looks like you have shadows turned off in the DX9 version?

ainwood
Sep 29, 2010, 04:23 AM
Also it looks like you have shadows turned off in the DX9 version?

No, they were turned on. :)

player1 fanatic
Sep 29, 2010, 04:25 AM
Turning off "shadows" completely messes up lightning in the game. It's only option I would no one advise to turn off.

Hogar313
Sep 29, 2010, 07:13 AM
I have a similar system I built myself and I play the game in DX11 mode with all settings on high:

i7 920 @ 3.8GHz
XFX 5870 (ATI CCC settings at maximum quality)
6GB RAM
26" monitor @ 1920x1200
Windows 7 64bit

Starting a new game running Fraps the FPS seem to be capped at 60 because it doesn't go any lower and doesn't go any higher.

I then loaded my current game where I'm on turn 235 and things are pretty busy and playing at my usual zoom level I get between 45-50 fps, but if I zoom all the way out it drops down to around 35.

Changing my settings from "quality" to "performance" would probably speed things up, but it plays OK for me.

That is believable scaling considering I have 4890/PII955 which are just about as weaker as they should be. I am also using this post to apologize to you (and only you), because I was angered by much misinformation on this thread.

Bino
Sep 29, 2010, 07:34 AM
I have read the full thread but maybe missed an answer to this question: Theres a way to avoid the tile textures to be regenerated every time i move the map? Not sure if im clear in my explanation...it happens to me that first i get grey tiles, then a first pass of tile textures which are quite plain, then the definitive, nice looking ones...it doesnt prevent play, but seems sloppy. Got a I3 with ATI HD5750, 2gb of ram (not enough for task manager, game and the rest use like 2,4), winxp sp3.

rbj2001
Sep 29, 2010, 07:35 AM
No, they were turned on. :)

Hmm... it's not like DX9 can't do shadows so it's weird that we don't see them.

I suppose a fair comparison really has to be between the versions at identical frame rates.

I'm running DX9 rather than DX10 on my GTX260 because it's faster. What I'd really like would be an option just to set the framerate (60 fps for me please!) and let it do the best it can while maintaining that.

H0NZA
Sep 29, 2010, 08:35 AM
I notice very little deference plus the texture sucks on both haha.

Panda_Power
Sep 29, 2010, 09:10 AM
I am also using this post to apologize to you (and only you), because I was angered by much misinformation on this thread.

I appreciate that, thank you!

Peace:)

Carl5872
Sep 29, 2010, 11:58 AM
Does anyone have a recommendation for buying a new laptop that will meet or exceed the recommended specifications for CIV 5? I have a budget of about $2,000

Mathalamus
Sep 29, 2010, 06:17 PM
you can buy a very powerful (custom) computer that comfortably exceeds the recommended specification of civ5.

in fact i can get all the parts for a custom build PC that is top of the line, and i mean that, for just 2019 dollars.

Baleur
Sep 30, 2010, 02:53 AM
Someone tell me why a sales pitch for an unnecessary graphics card is stickied here. Civ used to be about game play, not shiny :):):):).

Because he got bribe, i mean sent a new gfx card from nvidia and had to repay the favor somehow. PR being the easy quick way :rolleyes:

Nabobalis
Sep 30, 2010, 04:24 AM
So any difference in performance between DX9 and DX10/11?

Also any website/person has done a break down of how each setting effects performance?

TheLean
Sep 30, 2010, 09:49 AM
Why is AA not possible in the dx9 version of the game? (except by forcing it through the Nvidia control panel)

rbj2001
Sep 30, 2010, 11:51 AM
Why is AA not possible in the dx9 version of the game? (except by forcing it through the Nvidia control panel)

So that the DX10/11 version looks better. If they enabled all the effects from DX10/11 in DX9, there would be no reason to play DX10/11. A modern game can only be really good if it requires the latest hardware to run.

Nabobalis
Sep 30, 2010, 11:53 AM
Well does AA have any noticeable effect on the looks?

I.e DX11 AA off vs DX11 AA 2,4,6,8 on.

player1 fanatic
Sep 30, 2010, 12:02 PM
I have read the full thread but maybe missed an answer to this question: Theres a way to avoid the tile textures to be regenerated every time i move the map? Not sure if im clear in my explanation...it happens to me that first i get grey tiles, then a first pass of tile textures which are quite plain, then the definitive, nice looking ones...it doesnt prevent play, but seems sloppy. Got a I3 with ATI HD5750, 2gb of ram (not enough for task manager, game and the rest use like 2,4), winxp sp3.

Get Win7 and use DX10/11 mode. Texture regenerating there only happens on start (when first time you see some part of the map) and never again. It is also fast.

One of the devs explained it in some article. DX10/11 mode uses better detailed, yet also better compressed textures (decompressed on the fly by use of compute shader feature of DX11), which are loaded faster into the game, since they take less memory.

Carl5872
Sep 30, 2010, 12:08 PM
you can buy a very powerful (custom) computer that comfortably exceeds the recommended specification of civ5.

in fact i can get all the parts for a custom build PC that is top of the line, and i mean that, for just 2019 dollars.

Only problem with that is you probably need knowledge of how to build computers to do it. I know nothing, and would probably run into compatibility issues. Plus if there are any problems, theres no one to help.

Nabobalis
Sep 30, 2010, 12:11 PM
Only problem with that is you probably need knowledge of how to build computers to do it. I know nothing, and would probably run into compatibility issues. Plus if there are any problems, theres no one to help.


You don't need much knowledge to build a computer. Also if you get someone on the forums to vet the components you shouldn't have an issue. Also for help there the internet as well.

But just 2000$? That isn't cheap :lol:

Bino
Sep 30, 2010, 03:24 PM
Get Win7 and use DX10/11 mode. Texture regenerating there only happens on start (when first time you see some part of the map) and never again. It is also fast.

One of the devs explained it in some article. DX10/11 mode uses better detailed, yet also better compressed textures (decompressed on the fly by use of compute shader feature of DX11), which are loaded faster into the game, since they take less memory.

Thanks for the info! :)

tokala
Sep 30, 2010, 03:46 PM
Does anyone have a recommendation for buying a new laptop that will meet or exceed the recommended specifications for CIV 5? I have a budget of about $2,000

You won't need a $2000 laptop for Civ5 :D
You will want a fast dual core and a mobility HD 5650, 5850 or 5870. 4GB RAM are more than enough.
Just a quick check at newegg brought up this one (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834214044), which looks like a well-balanced package for Civ, while still being a laptop worth that name.

Gaizokubanou
Oct 01, 2010, 12:27 AM
Get Win7 and use DX10/11 mode. Texture regenerating there only happens on start (when first time you see some part of the map) and never again. It is also fast.

One of the devs explained it in some article. DX10/11 mode uses better detailed, yet also better compressed textures (decompressed on the fly by use of compute shader feature of DX11), which are loaded faster into the game, since they take less memory.

Sadly it happens mid game as of now. Not a deal breaker, but it creates annoying stutters when camera pans from one location to a far away place really really fast and I can see lot of black tiles that didn't get to load its texture.

vergennes
Feb 01, 2011, 04:28 PM
Interesting. However, when I select DirectX11 in the CivV Start Menu, the game crashes. I can only run it in 9. I do have 11, and a Radeon HD 5770 GC. Is this a bug, or can the problem be fixed, in Setup, say ?

wgene
Aug 28, 2012, 05:18 PM
Thank you for the zoom modification this is much better for me.