View Full Version : Money income tips and strategy?


krunsh
Sep 23, 2010, 09:43 AM
I just played my second game on prince and lost (I had won the first game). I was trying a one city game (had one puppet too).

I lost because japan invaded me with 19 unit in less than 6 turn while I was able to maintain only about 3 or 4 unit without going bankrupt.

- 25 maintenance from units (2 pikeman + 1 crossbow and 2 worker).
- 55 from building (Wich make me wonders... was that so high because my puppet city constructed everything and so... could it be better to use the worker to prevent puppet from getting hammer?)
- 5 from road (wish was paid back by the trade road).

With a lot of trading post + a market and a bank and all non-sea related commercial wonders (I wasnt near sea), there was no way I could get much better gold than that. I even had 2 gold source near my capital + the mint building.

Any tips to improve gold income ? In particular for small empire.

Thanks, now we talk.

PS: By the way, on every other aspect, I was pretty strong with only one city at about 18-19 pop and load of wonders (egyptian). Had 4 full social tree before 1900 and load of great people helping me keep up in tech and geting easy wonders.

Ahriman
Sep 23, 2010, 10:03 AM
It sounds like you tried a massive builder strategy without building any military, and thus got crushed.

You can't afford to build everything, nor to neglect your military so much.

If you're going to try to survive, build fewer wonders and buildings, more military. You don't need every building.

Also, many wonders are pretty useless if you only have a single city.

And I don't think Egypt is very well suited for a OCC. India probably better, or maybe Russia (faster culture expansion through Krepost).

krunsh
Sep 23, 2010, 10:08 AM
It sounds like you tried a massive builder strategy without building any military, and thus got crushed.

You can't afford to build everything, nor to neglect your military so much.

If you're going to try to survive, build fewer wonders and buildings, more military. You don't need every building.

I realize that I constructed to many hapiness building, but since wonder don't have maintenance cost there's no reason not the build them.

I gess a coastal city with the commercial branche should help too.

And I wasnt intentional neglecting my military. I was simply unable to build any more troops because of their heavy maintenance cost.

Arathorn
Sep 23, 2010, 10:14 AM
I've not tried a OCC yet. My only thought is to try one less worker and one more military unit. That can make a big difference.

And, yeah, the puppet is a problem. They tend to spam expensive buildings, so you might need to deal with them. If you build LOTS of trading posts, they have little choice but to help provide gold and not build so many expensive buildings. That's kinda my strategy, at this point.

Good luck and let the forums know if you learn anything useful.
Arathorn

cembandit
Sep 23, 2010, 10:29 AM
Something still seems off. Just curious, what was your supply?

krunsh
Sep 23, 2010, 10:39 AM
I reloaded but I only have save from before and after the problem so I cant reay tell...

I tested the unit maintenance though:

I had 2 pikeman and one war chariot + 2 worker.

5 units: 9 upkeep.
4 units: 9 upkeep.
3 units: 4 upkeep
2 units: 4 upkeep
1 unit: 0 upkeep.

So could be milestome for each two unit after the first one with + 1 upkeep everytime.

remconius
Sep 23, 2010, 10:41 AM
Happiness should be achieveable with a few happiness resources. I read that you can even get resources if the are outside the BFH but inside culture and have improvement (with artist culture bomb).

Happiness buildings are especially expensive to maintain. Colosseum 3,Theatre 5, Stadium 6.

cembandit
Sep 23, 2010, 10:46 AM
Supply is your cap under lists-military. Was curious what it was. No biggie. 25 is a lot for 5 units. Any boats?

krunsh
Sep 23, 2010, 10:55 AM
Supply is your cap under lists-military. Was curious what it was. No biggie. 25 is a lot for 5 units. Any boats?

No, had nos acces to sea at all.

Did more testing on another game in modern era.

Number of units / Upkeep cost:

16 / 102 (+14)
15 / 88
14 / 88 (+14)
13 / 74
12 / 74 (+14)
11 / 60
10 / 60 (+13)
9 / 47
8 / 47 (+13)
7 / 34
6 / 34 (+13)
5 / 21
4 / 21 (12)
3 / 9
2 /9 (+9)
1 / 0
0 / 0

The first testing was on the medieval era I think so I guess it's following a pattern that get bigger when you advance in tech. But what unit you have doesnt matter.

Zhahz
Sep 23, 2010, 11:21 AM
IMO, puppets are deviously evil. Handy but very costly.

If you must have puppets I would consider hindering their growth and production by turning most of their tiles into trading posts - forcing them to produce some gold and slowing down their building.

Puppets just sit there building lots of buildings, most with high maint, and many that you don't really want them to build if you're specializing your cities at all (or trying to keep your finances under control).

With smaller empires, the out of control spending by puppets is more punishing.

It *would* be nice if unit cost was more transparent or obvious. It seems to be consistent regardless of empire size and hurts more with a small empire.

Ahriman
Sep 23, 2010, 11:37 AM
but since wonder don't have maintenance cost there's no reason not the build them.
Yes there is; opportunity cost. Time spent building wonders is time spent not building an army to defend yourself.
And getting lots of hammers for the wonders means you weren't working as many trading posts tiles to generate gold.

I gess a coastal city with the commercial branche should help too.
Why?
Commerce seems like a waste of time, many of its benefits won't help you at all.

And I wasnt intentional neglecting my military. I was simply unable to build any more troops because of their heavy maintenance cost.
Your maintenance costs were so high because you'd built too many buildings.
You must have had 15+ buildings, and only 3 military units.

25 gold for 3 military units and 2 workers seems very weird though. Are you sure you didn't have some other units, particularly something that needed a strategic resource you no longer possessed?

You can't do upkeep analysis just looking at number of units; different units have different maintenance costs. Higher tech ones cost more.
It is frustratingly non-transparent though.

krunsh
Sep 23, 2010, 12:54 PM
Yes there is; opportunity cost. Time spent building wonders is time spent not building an army to defend yourself.
And getting lots of hammers for the wonders means you weren't working as many trading posts tiles to generate gold.
I had lot of spare time. Even had to set my city on producing wealth a few time because all I could do was military units (but couldnt afford the upkeep) or high maintenance building. Mainly because I had build everything with great engineers.

Why?
Commerce seems like a waste of time, many of its benefits won't help you at all.
+25% gold in capital when all you have is a VERY BIG capital don't seems like such a waist of time (even more considering it's only one SP point to get it.). And coastal because there is at least one wonder that get a gold bonus on every water tile (maybe two?), + you cam get whale.

Your maintenance costs were so high because you'd built too many buildings.
You must have had 15+ buildings, and only 3 military units.
yes next time I'll try to be more selective in my construction. Won't build wall and happiness building. still need all tech bulding and culture though or I can't keep up.

25 gold for 3 military units and 2 workers seems very weird though. Are you sure you didn't have some other units, particularly something that needed a strategic resource you no longer possessed? No I realy had few units (6 actualy, 4 military). And looking at the stats from my two game it make sense. in medieval: 9gold for 4-5 units. In modern Era: 34 for 6-7 units. So it would be in between since it was at the end of renaissance.

You can't do upkeep analysis just looking at number of units; different units have different maintenance costs. Higher tech ones cost more.
It is frustratingly non-transparent though.
My analysis wasnt gonna be based on number of units. but What I found was that no matter what I deleted (cossacks, arttilery, rifleman and workers were the units I had.), the drop in upkeep is alway regalar and only happen after deleting 2 units.

Don't get me wrong, it's a very basic analysis and I'll be happy to be proven wrong. But I do think I CAN make my own analysis.

My therory is still this: Every two units upgrade the upkeep up bye one level. And each level cost more when you are more advanced in tech (probably era).

Next time I'll try less building but I do think that the puppet city was realy sucking on my gold since all it had was lot of production (middle of forst and I did slmost only lumberjack all around).

So puppet city... Cut all forest and build lots of trading post :p

Ahriman
Sep 23, 2010, 02:08 PM
Wrote a supply to this, but it got eaten by one of the server blockages.
[Note to self: copy to clipboard a version of anything before posting.]

Basic version: apologies for overly harsh tone in previous posts.

I forgot the unlock effect of commerce tree, but the other abilities still seem pretty weak for OCC. I would think you would focus on Tradition, Patronage and Freedom. Piety or Rationalism is ok too, as is honor. Unlocking a tree where you don't want any of the rest just makes it that much harder to achieve the cultural win.

Very interesting that all units seem to have the same affect on upkeep. Maybe its just number of units and era, or my guess of number of units relative to supply cap?

krunsh
Sep 23, 2010, 05:40 PM
Wrote a supply to this, but it got eaten by one of the server blockages.
[Note to self: copy to clipboard a version of anything before posting.]

Same exacte thing happened to me on the previous post :p Had to do it all over again.

Basic version: apologies for overly harsh tone in previous posts.
Thanks and no worries ;)

I forgot the unlock effect of commerce tree, but the other abilities still seem pretty weak for OCC. I would think you would focus on Tradition, Patronage and Freedom. Piety or Rationalism is ok too, as is honor. Unlocking a tree where you don't want any of the rest just makes it that much harder to achieve the cultural win. Yeah it's true, not very good. but in a way, it could replace another not so useful one (like if you were to take honor... commerce could end up doing the same.). I can see having a lot of ship right by the capital being pretty useful in defense. But if you can do without the gold bonus, you better whit another choice.

Very interesting that all units seem to have the same affect on upkeep. Maybe its just number of units and era, or my guess of number of units relative to supply cap? relative to supply cap is an interesting point. I'll chek it out in my future game and hopefully understand it one day :p. Keep me up to date if you find anything!

Shillen
Sep 23, 2010, 05:46 PM
I played one OCC game and gold was definitely a severe problem for most of the game. You really can't afford a military. I got attacked once but I was able to hold them off just because the AI is so terrible, but it was close.